Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: Sarai on March 10, 2004, 07:33:19 PM

Title: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarai on March 10, 2004, 07:33:19 PM
These are some of the origins of the girls' names that I have come across in my readings. Perhaps some of you have other possibilities or concrete conclusions:

Olga and Tatiana: Most of what I have read states that these girls were named after the main female characters in Pushkin's novel Eugene Onegin, a favorite of the Imperial couple's. The book Nicholas II: The Imperial Family states that Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich heard this explanation from the Tsar himself. If Nicholas thought he would have another girl, then naming the first Olga so he could name the second Tatiana after these characters would make sense, but then again he could also have had only sons after Olga, thus naming her simply for that purpose wouldn't make much sense. I think a more accurate explanation is that, as I have read, Nicholas liked the name Olga because it was an ancient Russian name.

I also recall reading elsewhere that Olga was named after Nicholas's sister Olga, as that was his favourite sister. Yet I have also read that Xenia was his favourite sister, so I am not too sure about the veracity of this explanation.  

Tatiana was said to have been a very popular name choice with the common people, as it was a name used much amongst them and not so much amongst the nobility, so they felt a special affinity towards her.

I don't know whom Maria was named after, although I seem to recall reading that she was named after her paternal grandmother.

Finally, I have read two different explanations regarding whom Anastasia was named after, the first being the most popular. That is that she was named after the Montenegrin princess who was Alexandra's close friend at the time; she was also the same person who first introduced the Tsarina to Rasputin. The other explanation comes from M. Eagar's memoirs Six Years at the Russian Court, where she states "Anastasie means 'the breaker of chains,' or 'the prison opener' [...] The little Grand Duchess was called by this name because, in honour of her birth, the Emperor pardoned and reinstated the students who had been imprisoned for participating in the riots in St. Petersburg and Moscow during the winter." This is the only such explanation I have heard about this, however, and I have also read that Anastasia means "she who will rise again" and not "the breaker of chains," so I am unsure about how accurate this particular explanation may be.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 11, 2004, 10:56:08 PM
I don't know that any of the girls were named after or in honor of someone. And, I don't speak Russian, but here goes:

Anastasia - most likely in honor of Anastasia of Montenegro, who along with her sister Militza, were friends of Alexandra's early in her marriage.

Marie - most likely in honor of the Dowager Empress, although the last Hesse-Darmstadt Romanov bride (before Alexandra) was also Marie.

Tatiana - no idea

Olga - most likely because it was/is a very popular traditional Russian girl's name. Also in honor of Queen Olga of Greece and Nicholas' sister.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olenka on March 13, 2004, 05:19:55 PM
Quote: and I have also read that Anastasia means "she who will rise again" and not "the breaker of chains,"
'anastasis' is Greek for 'resurrection'. The Athenians thought that the apostle Paul was preaching about two gods - Christ and this 'anastasis'. Maybe that is where you got the 'she who will rise again' from?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 13, 2004, 08:12:43 PM
Tatiana is not only the Greek "fairy queen" of Shakespeare, etc,
but also a  martyr saint of both the Eastern & Western churches. Her day is 12 Jan. I suppose that depends on which calendar one follows.
This might make one think of what the parents were thinking,a proud, healthy daughter....fantasy & martyr.
. In my experience, it is not a very common name given in Orthodox families.
Before anyone  jumps on me, I said -"in my experience"
I would think that all the daughters wre named after relatives & saints.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Suzanne on March 16, 2004, 07:21:52 PM
I have read that Anastasia was named for Alexandra's friend Duchess Anastasia of Leuchtenburg, later Grand Duchess Nicholas Nikolayvich. The Duchess and her sister Militza were Princesses of Montenegro and they introduced the French mystic Phillipe Vachot to Nicholas and Alexandra. Vachot was thought to be able to predict the gender of a child and he predicted N&A's fourth child would be a boy. When the baby was born, she was a girl and named for the Duchess of Leuchtenburg.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 17, 2004, 08:51:33 AM
St. Anastasia, martyr & patron of widows. 25 Dec, [n.s., 2nd mass]
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: DaneRomanov on August 08, 2004, 05:25:28 AM
Hi, its me again, i was wondering, u know that Russian people have middle names like their father first name like Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna who father was Tsar Alexander III, and Tatijana Nicolaievna daughter of Nickolas, if my name is Dane can it be put like that or not?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lisa on August 08, 2004, 05:44:32 AM
I am not sure to have understood the question... All the Russians have 3 names: name, patronymic and surname.
ex: Ilya Borisovich Romanov (Ilya, Boris's son)
     Alexandra Nicolaevna Bespalova (Alexandra, Nikolaï's daughter)
     ...

If you want to know your patronymic,you must create it with your father's name... Your children will be "Danovich" and "Danovna"... (I'm not sure that exits in Russian...) ;)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: DaneRomanov on August 08, 2004, 06:17:51 AM
lol Thanks that really helped :D
Dane
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lisa on August 08, 2004, 09:01:24 AM
You're welcome!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/7Sbastopol.jpg)
1914, Sebastopol
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: bookworm85715836758701 on September 15, 2004, 06:06:21 PM
There seem to be so many foreign variations of the names of the Imperial family and their relatives. In private, didn't most of them use the English or French form of their names?

Alix, Alicky or Sunny instead of Alexandra Feodorovna.
Nicky instead of Nicholas or Nikolai
Alyosha or Baby instead of Alexei
Marie or Mashka instead of Maria, etc.
Minny instead of Grand Duchess Marie Feodorovna
Serge, not Sergei
Paul, not Pavel
Helen or Helene, not Elena or Helena.
Cyril, not Kyril.

I don't know what the other daughters of Nicholas and Alexandra called themselves habitually, but I notice that Anastasia often signed herself "Anastasie," and this was the name that her tutor used in his book about her. What other names were in common use in the family?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 15, 2004, 06:13:25 PM
Anastasie is french for Anastasia.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: jackie3 on September 15, 2004, 08:24:44 PM
I've also heard of:
Tanya and Tatia for Tatiana,
Olya and Olishka for Olga N.,
Nastya and Shvibzik for Anastasia,
Mitya for GD Dmitri Pavlovich,
Sunshine for Alexei
and of course Ella was the common nickname for both GD Elizabeth and her namesake niece the ill-fated Elizabeth of Hesse.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Katia on September 16, 2004, 12:03:17 AM
I've read that Tatiana was often called "Governess" by her siblings, and Anastasia "Malenkaya" (the little one) by her devoted aunt Olga Alexandrovna.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lanie on September 16, 2004, 12:06:26 AM
Maria Nikolaevna sometimes signed letters as "Masha," which is one of the Russian nicknames for Maria besides "Mashka". :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 16, 2004, 01:25:22 AM
I don't believe that Dmitri Pavlovich was called Metia. Metia was Dmitri Constantinovich. I believe DP was called "Dee-me" or something like that.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Svetabel on September 16, 2004, 03:11:50 AM
Quote
I don't believe that Dmitri Pavlovich was called Metia. Metia was Dmitri Constantinovich. I believe DP was called "Dee-me" or something like that.

I don`t think so."Dima" for Dmitrii often use only nowadays in Russia.Dmitri Pavlovich was "Mitya" or "Mit`ka" or "Miten`ka".Though his sister Maria in her memoirs calls him only Dmitri.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: gem_10 on September 17, 2004, 02:24:36 AM
Hi! I'm just curious... What was the name used by Sergei when he was calling or referring to Ella? Did he called her Ella, Elisabeth or Elizaveta?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 17, 2004, 02:48:29 PM
All i know is that maybe Elisabeta is a Russian/Romanain way to spell it,..i'm not sure?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga on September 18, 2004, 08:34:19 AM
In Russian he would have referred to her as Yelizaveta.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: RomanovFan on September 19, 2004, 06:37:54 PM
Olga was often called 'Olya' by her sisters I think
Tatiana was 'Tatia' or 'Tanya'
Maria was 'Mashka', "Masha" or 'Marie'...and even sometimes 'Littlie Bow Wow' (her sisters made this one up, I'm sure)
Anastasia was 'Nastya' or "Shvizvik" (spelling?)
Alexander III was called 'Sasha' (This nickname was/is also used as a nickname for Alexandra)
Marie Fedorovna was 'Minnie'
Friedrich (Alix's brother) was called 'Frittie'

Nicholas' siblings:

Alexander IV = Maybe "Sandro" or "Little Sasha"
George= "Georgy" or "Goggie"
Xenia= "Malenkaya" perhaps by MF.
Michael= "Misha"
Olga = "Olya" or "Olishka" perhaps.

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga on September 20, 2004, 03:40:45 AM
Sasha has always been a diminutive of Alexander.

Olga Alexandrovna: Olya
Kseniya Alexandrovna: Ksyusha
Mikhail Alexandrovich: Misha, Floppy
Tatiana Nikolaevna: Tanya
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Annie on November 08, 2004, 09:16:58 AM
I have seen the oldest Konstantinovich boy listed under all 3 of these names in various different places. Is it a question of translation? Does anyone know what his actual name was?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchessella on November 08, 2004, 09:22:20 AM
Quote
I have seen the oldest Konstantinovich boy listed under all 3 of these names in various different places. Is it a question of translation? Does anyone know what his actual name was?


They're all variations on the English John. I've usually seen him listed in publications and albums as Ioann and his descendants as Ioannovich. That's how he was referred to in family letters, etc...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Annie on November 08, 2004, 09:31:53 AM
Thanks, is Ioann the closest translation from Russian? How would you pronounce that name ???
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchessella on November 08, 2004, 09:41:38 AM
Quote
Thanks, is Ioann the closest translation from Russian? How would you pronounce that name ???


I found something on the etymology:
IOANN   m
Usage: Russian
Older Russian form of JOHN

IVAN   m
Usage: Russian, Czech, Croatian, Slovene
Pronounced: IE-van
Russian, Czech, Croatian and Slovene form of JOHN. This was the name of several rulers of Moscow, including Ivan the Great and Ivan the Terrible, the first czar of Russia. Other notable bearers include Ivan Turgenev, a Russian author who wrote 'Fathers and Sons', and Ivan Pavlov, a scientist and physiologist best known for his discovery of the conditioned reflex.

Ioann (m) -- The Russianization of John (God is gracious) and one of the most common given names. Both the older form (Ioann) and the newer (Ivan)

I'll have to look for the pronunciation. It seems KR with his deep religiosity combined with his love of culture & history wanted to reach way back for a name. Ioann was the son of Ivan the Terrible.

Some of KR's other children:
Gavril (m) -- Russianization of Gabriel ("my strength is God").

Vysheslav (m) -- "high glory." Vysheslav, son of Saint Vladimir.

Tatiana (in addition to being from Eugen Onegin)
Tat'iana (f) -- "to designate." Tat'iana, martyr. 1356.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Penny_Wilson on November 08, 2004, 10:12:27 AM
I have heard several times, including at least once from a relative of the Konstantinovichi branch, that KR and his wife were a little hacked off at Alexander III for limiting the use of the Grand Ducal title just before Ioann's birth.  They determined that since their children would be something quite different and new -- Princes of the Blood Imperial rather than Grand Dukes -- then their names would also be quite different and "new" to the Imperial family.

PS.  Vyacheslav was KR's youngest brother, not one of his chlidren.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchessella on November 08, 2004, 10:20:54 AM
Quote
I have heard several times, including at least once from a relative of the Konstantinovichi branch, that KR and his wife were a little hacked off at Alexander III for limiting the use of the Grand Ducal title just before Ioann's birth.  They determined that since their children would be something quite different and new -- Princes of the Blood Imperial rather than Grand Dukes -- then their names would also be quite different and "new" to the Imperial family.

PS.  Vyacheslav was KR's youngest brother, not one of his chlidren.


Whoops!  :-[  I was trying to go by memory when I should've looked it up.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: jehan on November 08, 2004, 01:07:14 PM
Quote


IVAN   m
Usage: Russian, Czech, Croatian, Slovene
Pronounced: IE-van
 


 But of course, IE'-van is the English pronounciation of the Russian name.  In Russian it is ee-VAN'.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on November 08, 2004, 01:38:21 PM
Ioann is pronounced 'Ee-oh-ahn'. I think the stress is on the last syllable.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Elisabeth on November 08, 2004, 02:14:28 PM
I wonder if Ioann's "archaic" name was a reflection of the Russian taste for old Muscovite names in the period of his birth. There was a fad in Russia for very Slavic-sounding names in the late nineteenth, early twentieth centuries - Viacheslav, Tatiana, Liudmila, Sviatoslav, etc. It was a sign of patriotism. Nicholas II followed the current fashion in the naming of his own children.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Svetabel on November 08, 2004, 02:55:28 PM
Gavriil Konstantinovitch in his memoirs called constantly his elder brother Ioann as "Ioannchik" (little Ioann) - it was his pet name  :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Teddy on December 22, 2004, 07:51:36 AM
In many families is the tradition that the newborn baby with the one on the photograph goes to who that have been named., .  Its there photographs known?  
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on December 22, 2004, 03:09:55 PM
Like all Orthodox Christians, the members of the Imperial Family were named for Saints in the Orthodox Calendar.

Nicholas for St Nicholas of Myra (who has since morphed into Santa Claus in the West) Dec 6/19

Alexandra for St Alexandra the martyr - wife of Emperor Diocletian of Rome who started an extremely bloody persecution of Christians - Alexandra was converted by the sufferings and martyrdom of St George, and if my memory serves me correctly is celebrated on the same day: Apr 23/May 6

Olga for St Olga equal to the Apostles 11/24 July. A Kievan-Rus princess who became Christian. Grandmother (I think) of St Vladimir who baptised the Russian people.

Tatiana for the Martyr St Tatiana of Rome 12/25 January

Maria for St Mary Magdalene, Apostle to the Apostles
22 July/4 Aug. The idea that she was a prostitute is a later western mediaeval notion, not found in Orthodox tradition.

Anastasia for (I think) Martyr Anastasia of Rome 29 Oct/
11 November. There are 4 other Anastasias from the early days of the Church, and it could be for any of them she is named, I am not sure off-hand. If anyone knows GD Anastasia's name day, then I could check and find out which St Anastasia she is named for. Anastasia is the feminine form of the Greek word for Resurrection, which is what her name means.

Alexei for (I think, but can't remember of hand) St Alexis the Wonderworker, Metropolitan of Moscow 12/25 Feb. He is also celebrated on 5/18 Oct with other Metropolitans of Moscow who have been glorified.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Martyn on December 22, 2004, 04:58:08 PM
Quote
Like all Orthodox Christians, the members of the Imperial Family were named for Saints in the Orthodox Calendar.

Nicholas for St Nicholas of Myra (who has since morphed into Santa Claus in the West) Dec 6/19

Alexandra for St Alexandra the martyr - wife of Emperor Diocletian of Rome who started an extremely bloody persecution of Christians - Alexandra was converted by the sufferings and martyrdom of St George, and if my memory serves me correctly is celebrated on the same day: Apr 23/May 6

Olga for St Olga equal to the Apostles 11/24 July. A Kievan-Rus princess who became Christian. Grandmother (I think) of St Vladimir who baptised the Russian people.

Tatiana for the Martyr St Tatiana of Rome 12/25 January

Maria for St Mary Magdalene, Apostle to the Apostles
22 July/4 Aug. The idea that she was a prostitute is a later western mediaeval notion, not found in Orthodox tradition.

Anastasia for (I think) Martyr Anastasia of Rome 29 Oct/
11 November. There are 4 other Anastasias from the early days of the Church, and it could be for any of them she is named, I am not sure off-hand. If anyone knows GD Anastasia's name day, then I could check and find out which St Anastasia she is named for. Anastasia is the feminine form of the Greek word for Resurrection, which is what her name means.

Alexei for (I think, but can't remember of hand) St Alexis the Wonderworker, Metropolitan of Moscow 12/25 Feb. He is also celebrated on 5/18 Oct with other Metropolitans of Moscow who have been glorified.


Well that all makes perfect sense to me.  I could never really get my head arond the Onegin association for the choice of Olga and Tatiana as names; after all it isn't really a positive exploration of the relationship between two sisters.............................
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Janet_W. on December 22, 2004, 05:41:24 PM
Right! Nicholas remarked that they had now an Olga and a Tatiana, as in the Onegin play, but he wasn't saying they had named their daughters that way on purpose . . . it was just a coincidence. Olga was called thus because it was an ancient Russian name that Nicholas and Alexandra both agreed upon, and (I suspect) because they were both very fond of his younger sister.  Tatiana received her name because Nicholas and Alexandra liked the Onegin play, and Tatiana is the winsome and principled heroine of that play. But the Olga character of that play is purely perhipheral.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Johnny on December 22, 2004, 07:08:16 PM
Quote
Tatiana is not only the Greek "fairy queen" of Shakespeare, etc,
 but also a  martyr saint of both the Eastern & Western churches. Her day is 12 Jan. I suppose that depends on which calendar one follows.
 This might make one think of what the parents were thinking,a proud, healthy daughter....fantasy & martyr.
. In my experience, it is not a very common name given in Orthodox families.
 Before anyone  jumps on me, I said -"in my experience"
I would think that all the daughters wre named after relatives & saints.

The fairy queen is called Titania and not Tatiana. The former is the female variant of Titan. Tatiana is not ethymologically related to that.
In a world of misinformation, I would like to ask our dear members not to speculate if they do not know something for a fact. And if they do so at least mention that it is not backed by any proof.
Olga was named after a Russian saint who, as Robert just mentioned, was apparently an early Russian convert. Tatiana was most likely suggested by the Pushkin poem. But it was chosen because it was a very popular name among middle and lower classes but not at all current in the royal family and high nobility. So it was a gesture by Nicholas and Alix of recognizing that fact. I can't comment on the names of Maria and Anastasia. Alexei was named after Nicholas' favorite Tsar Alexei the Mild. He liked and respected his gentle ancestor, but also wanted to break the chain of Nicholases and Alexanders which had exclusively dominated the entire 19th century, out of pure accident in fact, but nevertheless it was so.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Martyn on December 23, 2004, 04:03:29 AM
Quote
The fairy queen is called Titania and not Tatiana. The former is the female variant of Titan. Tatiana is not ethymologically related to that.
In a world of misinformation, I would like to ask our dear members not to speculate if they do not know something for a fact. And if they do so at least mention that it is not backed by any proof.
Olga was named after a Russian saint who, as Robert just mentioned, was apparently an early Russian convert. Tatiana was most likely suggested by the Pushkin poem. But it was chosen because it was a very popular name among middle and lower classes but not at all current in the royal family and high nobility. So it was a gesture by Nicholas and Alix of recognizing that fact. I can't comment on the names of Maria and Anastasia. Alexei was named after Nicholas' favorite Tsar Alexei the Mild. He liked and respected his gentle ancestor, but also wanted to break the chain of Nicholases and Alexanders which had exclusively dominated the entire 19th century, out of pure accident in fact, but nevertheless it was so.


Oh come on, let's not stifle people's thoughts and ideas.  The whole point is that those who do have the information can share it with those that would like it.  Sometimes it is quite interesting to read the connections that people try to make in order to make sense of something.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarai on December 23, 2004, 09:41:04 AM
Quote
Oh come on, let's not stifle people's thoughts and ideas.  The whole point is that those who do have the information can share it with those that would like it.  Sometimes it is quite interesting to read the connections that people try to make in order to make sense of something.


I agree, I think asking that people only post something that they absolutely know is correct and have proof to back it up will discourage people to post for fear of looking "stupid." Some people are already reluctant to post here because they fear being made fun of if they don't know all the facts. However, I agree that if you are not sure if what you're saying is a concrete fact, then you can simply say "I think" or "I believe" so people know this is just your opinion or supposition, and that you may not have a source to back it up. But please post anyway!

Sometimes people don't have all their facts straight, but what better way to find out the facts than to post even just what you think, and then perhaps someone who does know for sure can correct and enlighten you. I think sometimes here we forget that not everyone here is an intellectual that knows everything about this topic. We are here to learn from each other.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Martyn on December 23, 2004, 10:10:51 AM
I agree with Sarai.  There was a post in another thread from someone who, although an adult member, felt intimidated by others who were too highhanded in dealing with other members and was thus reluctant to post anything for fear of being mocked or attacked.  Personally, I thought that was a bit of a shame.
Besides which. the whole thing would be very dry and dull without some of the light-hearted stuff that we sometimes see.
After all, the second post in this thread could have read 'named after saints and relatives' - end of story, thread killed stone dead.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarai on December 23, 2004, 10:14:50 AM
Quote
After all, the second post in this thread could have read 'named after saints and relatives' - end of story, thread killed stone dead.


Excellent point, Martyn. If all we posted were the straight facts that we know are true, then this wouldn't be much of a discussion board, would it?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: rskkiya on December 23, 2004, 02:54:40 PM
AHEM
   Why are people here "suddenly' so worried about being polite and friendly to each other? I have been here, either lurking or participating for some long time, and in that time I have been trashed and bashed without any deep psychological scars...come on, being laughed at {or flamed} here is infinately better than being mugged, stalked or abused by small victious garden gnomes...{Now Thats an image to chill the bones!}  :D
   After all, this is just a web site...I honestly don't understand why some people take it all so very personally...LAUGH! PLEASE?

the evil rskkiya ;D
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Johnny on December 23, 2004, 04:16:57 PM
Quote
The fairy queen is called Titania and not Tatiana. The former is the female variant of Titan. Tatiana is not ethymologically related to that.
In a world of misinformation, I would like to ask our dear members not to speculate if they do not know something for a fact. And if they do so at least mention that it is not backed by any proof.

Wow! THAT was blown out of proportions! All I said very politely (as you can see in my quote above) was that Titania and Tatiana are unrelated and that if you are speculating please say so, so people don't think it's a fact. I also think that just saying "I believe" or "I think" is not enough, because that's how people talk even when they state facts. Just say "I am speculating" or "I am not sure" or "to me it sounds like", etc. That's what many people have already been doing and I really appreciate it. But if one person states his/her opinion as fact, the others who don't know much about the topic can take it for a fact and not even check the topic later.  I know I tend to do that.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarai on December 23, 2004, 04:29:41 PM
Quote
AHEM
Why are people here "suddenly' so worried about being polite and friendly to each other? I have been here, either lurking or participating for some long time, and in that time I have been trashed and bashed without any deep psychological scars...come on, being laughed at {or flamed} here is infinately better than being mugged, stalked or abused by small victious garden gnomes...{Now Thats an image to chill the bones!}  :D
    After all, this is just a web site...I honestly don't understand why some people take it all so very personally...LAUGH! PLEASE?


Rskkiya,
I think the reason why suddenly we are more concerned with niceness is that a lot of people are noticing an increasing trend in rudeness and condescending attitudes among members, especially towards new people, but also to old. I agree that, in the grand scheme of things, being criticized by someone on an Internet board is not a big deal, and some poeple may just say, "suck it up, buttercup!" but a lot of people are just sensitive to criticism. And it does become a problem when such people actually feel intimidated to post here and never contribute out of fear. I don't think we should all suddenly be concerned with being so politically correct that we never offend anyone, as that is inevitable, but we should be concerned with not being purposely rude and offensive and just plain mean :P  There are nicer ways to make your point than to ridicule someone.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Valmont on December 23, 2004, 04:50:05 PM
I agree 100% with you, Rskkiya..
;D
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Janet_W. on December 23, 2004, 05:32:59 PM
As my mom used to say, "How can there be peace in the world if there isn't peace at home?"   ;)

It's one thing to disagree with someone or point out evidence to the contrary of what they've stated . . . it's quite another to "dis" that person.  Other posters besides myself have pointed out the occasional lack of civility at this website. And to define civility--the very mention of which I'm sure some people view as laughable and/or dated--I'd say it is, in part, the ability to maintain a level tone, agree to disagree, and refuse to be goaded into a fight.

Two days ago a young man in my area was stabbed to death because he and his twin brother, both of whom were driving along one of our roads, had been having some sort of disagreement with a guy on a motorcycle. The young man made the great mistake of getting out of his truck and approaching the motorcyclist, who then took out a knife. I would like to think that all of us have enough sense on this website to "stay inside our trucks" when someone is goading us into becoming vulnerable.

I've read and reread Nicholas's correspondence enough times to be reasonably confident about why he and his wife named their first two daughters Olga and Tatiana. But for heaven's sakes, of all the topics on this website and in the world, this is not one that should incite flaming.  So here's a suggestion, for this thread and all the others: After you've committed your words to the screen, review them and think how others might view them, and remember that we're not sitting in a room together, able to hear the different tones of voice, so do consider before posting that our words alone--often meant innocently--can appear, on the screen, to be weapons.

I was about to quote that famous Bible verse, "Do unto others as they would do unto you." But I have the feeling that some of us are just a bit more edgy and contentious than others, and perhaps like the idea of some verbal sparring that might leave others bruised and bloodied. With that in mind--plus the example of that young man, age 23, who was just murdered, and for what?--let those who would be wise practice some discretion, which is (as a very clever man once wrote) the better part of valor.

Hope everyone has a great holiday weekend and stays safe.   :-*   8)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Martyn on December 23, 2004, 05:46:28 PM
Whilst I will be amongst the first to hold my hand up and admit that I love the discussions that fire us all up, I do think that when a new poster tells us that we are intimidating than we have to pay attention to that.
What I would say to new members is that you should try to have the courage of your convictions and if someone is rude then pull them up about it.
Just recently in another thread I became so incensed with someone who I felt was completely dogmatic, bigoted and racist that I had no option but to withdraw from the argument before I posted something that I would probably have regretted.  I did that for my own benefit, because, although the discussion stumbles on, I knew that I could not contribute positively.
There is a very broad cross-section of members on the Board in terms of age, experience and learning - and it is supposed to be enjoyable.  If one doesn't like scrapping, than stay away from the scrappers; new people will soon find out who they are.  Equally there are people who enjoy a nice light topic; let's not forget the in-betweens which probably covers most of us.  It won't harm us to spare a quick thought when replying about the feelings of the recipient.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Johnny on December 23, 2004, 05:49:54 PM
Quote
 So here's a suggestion, for this thread and all the others: After you've committed your words to the screen, review them and think how others might view them, and remember that we're not sitting in a room together, able to hear the different tones of voice, so do consider before posting that our words alone--often meant innocently--can appear, on the screen, to be weapons.

I read and reread my comments and I still can't see why people took it so strongly. I agree that in a posted message people can't hear one's tone of voice. I just corrected someone's mistake and then asked for a favor. That's all! So if in the process of doing so I have upset anyone I sincerely appologize. It was a simple case of misunderstanding and was certainly not my intention.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Janet_W. on December 23, 2004, 05:58:37 PM
Johnny, I wasn't pointing a finger at you specifically, and was actually thinking about a lot of other threads that have gone from 0 to 80 in a matter of seconds, rather than this one!  But I do think it's true that many of us (yours truly included) are feeling a bit edgier than usual these days. Too much going on in the world, and too many anxieties connected with end-of-the-year expectations.  And I admit that in reading these latest entries, I had simply "had enough." (Every now and then, I guess the former elementary school teacher in me decides to blow her playground whistle!)  So please, "no worries," and have a good weekend!  :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarai on December 23, 2004, 06:13:40 PM
Johnny,
Thanks for your explanation. I also apologize, if I misunderstood the tone of your post. I guess the sentence that made me uncomfortable was when you said "In a world of misinformation, I would like to ask our dear members not to speculate if they do not know something for a fact. And if they do so at least mention that it is not backed by any proof."

I guess it bothered me because I myself often post things that I just "read somewhere" without remembering the specific source for proof, or something that I am just speculating about, but I would still like the freedom to post those thoughts nevertheless. And I also thought that, as a consequence, those who may not know the concrete facts on a particular subject will be reluctant to post their opinions or just what they think if we start asking people to post only what they know is fact.

But I do understand that it's important to at least distinguish between fact and speculation in one's posts, precisely so that those who are not in the know don't get mislead with the wrong information. :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: koloagirl on December 23, 2004, 10:34:39 PM
 :P

Okay, here I go - jumping in the water!  Yikes! :o

As I was the member earlier referred to as being intimidated by posting in fear of being "trashed and bashed" - I want to clarify myself.  
Once again going off-topic, which I assure you isn't my intention in posting on this board (altho' it seems like it today) :-[

What is wrong with being "polite and friendly"?  I thought those were positive attributes?  We can all still have disagreements and opinions that differ without sarcasm and rudeness to people who may have thinner skin than others, can't we?

I want to be a contributor to this site (not just a lurker, as I have been), so many people seem so very friendly and certainly so knowledgeable about the IF - however I have to confess that I always shy away from something that I know is going to cause me to feel shame for a question I ask or an opinion that I may have.  
I'll be the first to say that I wish I were more like others on the board and say "the h*** with them" if I was flamed, but we're all different, right?  ;)

I enjoy a discussion, and certainly respect everyone's opinion, even tho' it might not be my own...I just don't think it is necessary to hurt people in the process.

And thank you Sarai, Janet W. and Martyn for making me feel brave enough to post this!  I normally wouldn't
...but just lurk!  lol.

I look forward to posting and meeting you all - I feel as if I know some of you from reading and reading the board!  

Now - Mele Kalikimaka from Hawai'i Nei!  
(Merry Christmas from the isles of Hawai'i)
Janet R.
:D ;D ;)

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: rskkiya on December 24, 2004, 11:01:11 AM
Janet R

Please PLEASE reread my post on this, especially the bit about the "small vicious garden gnomes" OK?
  (HINT ... I don't know of any more obvious way of saying that I am NOT serious in my complaints, but just trying to lighten the mood in here... ::) HINT)
LAUGH OUT LOUD, PLEASE!

rskkiya
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: koloagirl on December 24, 2004, 12:48:14 PM
 ;D ;D

Dear Rskkiya:

Thank you for your posting - I do understand your
lightheartedness and I loved your reference to the
vicious garden gnomes!  I myself am afraid of clowns (lol)!   ;D :o

I just have thin skin - must be from living in the tropics - probably my blood is thin too!  I do have a sense of humor and if something in in way of a reprimand is given, I surely don't mind it, but appreciate it, as long as it is given in a lighthearted manner!   8)

Thank you again - I look forward to being part of your
community.
Regards,
Janet R.
:) ;) :D
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: RomanovFan on December 26, 2004, 10:59:55 PM
Olga= after a character in the Tsarina's favorite play
Tatiana= same
Maria= I'm guessing after Maria Feodorovna or the Tsar's cousin, Maria Pavlovna
Anastasia= No idea
Alexei= after Tsar Alexei The Mild
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Martyn on December 27, 2004, 05:19:55 AM
Well done Koloagirl and good luck; I'm sure that you will enjoy yourself here. (Agree about the clown thing, ever since Stephen King's 'IT')
And Johnny, this discussion was not intended as a reprimand to you.  Some of us are labouring with certain issues in other threads that are a little oppressive at the moment and I know that I seized an opportunity to vent my feelings about that.  Apologies if you felt singled out for criticism.
Where are we with the names, I'm lost?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Kätlin on January 04, 2005, 12:37:11 PM
I have heard that Alexei was named after the first Romanov czar and Anastasia after Ivan the Terrible's first wife (who was one of the first Romanovs who played any part in history).
Unfortunately I can't remember where I read it, but it also said that Nicholas was interested in Russian history before Peter the Great and that's why he chose these names.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 04, 2005, 12:56:43 PM
Quote
I have heard that Alexei was named after the first Romanov czar and Anastasia after Ivan the Terrible's first wife (who was one of the first Romanovs who played any part in history).
Unfortunately I can't remember where I read it, but it also said that Nicholas was interested in Russian history before Peter the Great and that's why he chose these names.
 

Peter the Great was Nicholas's least favorite ancestor. Nicholas was partial to purely Russian Tsars, and Peter was the antithesis of that. Tsar Alexei, Peter's father, was N's favorite and so he named his son after him. Yes, I believe that Anastasia was named after the first Anastasia Romanov, Ivan The Terrible's wife and Mikhail Romanov's great aunt (?). And yes, I believe reading somewhere too that both Olga and Tatiana were named after characters in a play (was it "Eugene Onegin"?). Maria, I have no idea, but in honor of Maria Feodorovna sounds good to me.

P.S. I too have always thought that clowns were quite evil ;) ;D  :P
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga on January 04, 2005, 07:06:31 PM
Quote
I have heard that Alexei was named after the first Romanov czar


Alexei Mikhailovich was the second Romanov tsar. His father, Mikhail Fyodorovich, was first in the dynasty.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Kätlin on January 05, 2005, 01:08:26 AM
Quote

Alexei Mikhailovich was the second Romanov tsar. His father, Mikhail Fyodorovich, was first in the dynasty.


Sorry, I didn't check and got them mixed up.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: hikaru on March 08, 2005, 10:06:59 AM
 I think that Catherine the Great was Ekaterina Alexeevna, not Feodorovna.
Catherine received her name from Empress Elizaveta because of the name of her mother.

I suppose that the finally the name was decided by present ruler ( Emperator or Empresse)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: RomanovFan on March 09, 2005, 10:33:03 PM
Yes. You're right. Catherine was the name of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna's mother. And Catherine II was christened in the Russian Orthodox Church as Ekaterina Alexeevna. At that time, Tsar Alexei I was where her patronymic came from. She could've been Sophie Christianovna, but the Empress didn't like Germany (or Prussia, I can't remember which) so the Princess Sophie was given a more Russian sounding name instead, which pleased Empress Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Macedonsky on March 10, 2005, 03:09:33 AM
Quote
Yes. You're right. Catherine was the name of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna's mother. And Catherine II was christened in the Russian Orthodox Church as Ekaterina Alexeevna. At that time, Tsar Alexei I was where her patronymic came from.

Catherine I's patronymic came from the name of her godfather, Tsarevich Alexis, who was named after his grandfather Tsar Alexis.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 18, 2005, 08:58:24 PM
Patronymics are not middle names even though they occupy the same position in the overall name. There were some members of the greater IF who used middle names as we know them in central and western Europe. For example: Tereziya-Frederika-Olga-Vilgelmina, Princess Oldenburgsky (1852-1883) & Maksamillion-Evgeny-Iosip-Napoleon, Gertsog Leihtenburgsky (1817-1852). These are just two examples of the use of middle names with the obligatory inclusion of a hyphen between each Christian or given name. Of course these German families who married into the IF eventually gave up the use of middle names and assumed patronymics like the rest of the IF.

In polite Russian Society it is very difficult to function without a patronymic as everyone uses them in proper social circles.

DAP

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on June 22, 2005, 04:00:08 PM
There's a thread about this in the New users read this 1st...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: hikaru on June 25, 2005, 12:42:39 AM
Nicholas liked ancient russian history a lot, so he choose the  following names:

Olyga - was named after the famous Kievan princess Olyga who became the saint ( I think that she was the first russian woman - historical personnage - who became the saint)

Tatiana - after the saint Tatiana ( who protects the students) and after the common russian name Tatiana
( I think that she was the firts Romanov named Tatiana)

Maria - just Maria ( holly virgin) as well as mother's name

Anastasia - after the first beloved wife of Iwan Grozny, Iwan the Terrible  - Anastasia . She was the first Romanov who became the Tsary.

I believe so
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: ferngully on June 25, 2005, 06:00:04 AM
well in the book mentioned, olga was younger than tatiana, so it might have made sense that the first daughter would have been tatiana and the second one, olga ;) if tats the reason for calling them so. marie is the french for mary and maria is also a form of that, there are many different forms of mary, so its a pretty common name and sometimes used if no other name is thought of to represnt the daughter, i think irish catholics tend to not use that name unless as a middle name or as a communion name (i think, i'm not sure) and i think its pure coincedence that anastasia means ;she who will rise again' becuase of anna anderson (not logical i know, but just something i noticed ;D)
selina               xxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchess_42 on June 27, 2005, 10:00:14 AM
ok so if ur father is tsar... ur middle name is Nicholaievna  if ur fathers name is nicholas... my fathers name is brian. would i be Briaolaievna. why do they do the middle name of the father thingy any way?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on June 27, 2005, 01:06:44 PM
There is already a thread for this. It can be found here:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Welcome;action=display;num=1106369128
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on June 27, 2005, 04:39:36 PM
Well, Anastasia more correctly means "Resurrection", and is a common name in the Orthodox Church, and there are two or three early martyrs with that name. Maria was named for St Mary Magdalene, as I have seen an icon presented to the Imperial Family with all their Patron Saints on it, and the Maria is definately Mary Magdalina. (Her history is quite different from the western version of it.)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on June 27, 2005, 04:51:03 PM
If Brian were a Russian name, the patronym for you would be Brianovna.

As to why they do it? Most European languages did it. Think how many Johnsons, Davidsons etc there are in ENglish, also in the Scandinavian countries. Even in modern day Iceland, people's surnames are their patronyms: If I had a son his surname would be Georgeson, if I had a daughter her surname would be Georgedottir. So it is the same thing in Russian, only it is like a middle name instead of the surname.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Carol_Shvybzyk on June 27, 2005, 04:56:02 PM
It sounds like that old bible movies...
"Jesus,soon of Maria and Jose"..
I believe it's a way for a more specific name?

xxx,
Ana Carolina.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lanie on June 27, 2005, 05:05:08 PM
I think Anastasia Nikolaevna was named in honor of Anastasia Mikhailovna (I think that was her patronym) who ended up introducing Alix to Rasputin.  She introduced Alix to that Philippe fellow.  BTW, Ivan's wife was Anastasia Romanovna--she wasn't a Romanov AFAIK, though I think she was related to them.  I forget what her surname was.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 27, 2005, 07:22:48 PM
And if you are a native Russian, but your father is not , how your name would be?

I mean, for example. If you are a Maria, and your father is a French man named "Maximilien", your name would be: " Maria Maximilienovna"?  ???

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on June 27, 2005, 07:27:35 PM
Yes. Maksimillionovna.
I guess Maksim (Maxim) is more common than Maximillien, so maybe even Maximovna.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 27, 2005, 07:35:36 PM
Olga - after HIH the Grand Duchess Olga A.

Tatiana-  after Tatiana Larina in Alexander Pushkin's Evgeny Onegin

Maria- after her HIM the Dowager Empress Marie

Anastasia- after the Princess Anastasia of Montenegro ( one of Anastasia's godmothers)

Alexei - after Tsar Alexei 1st.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchess_42 on June 27, 2005, 07:58:32 PM
 :Dthank u so much! i totally get it now!!! and thanks again! and i'll read some more into the other link!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: RealAnastasia on June 27, 2005, 08:13:25 PM
Thank you, Georgiy. Now I understand much better.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchess_42 on June 28, 2005, 08:07:31 AM
yes thank u again!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 01, 2005, 09:11:30 AM
Quote
If Brian were a Russian name, the patronym for you would be Brianovna.

As to why they do it? Most European languages did it. Think how many Johnsons, Davidsons etc there are in ENglish, also in the Scandinavian countries. Even in modern day Iceland, people's surnames are their patronyms: If I had a son his surname would be Georgeson, if I had a daughter her surname would be Georgedottir. So it is the same thing in Russian, only it is like a middle name instead of the surname.



So if my last name is Patterson I had a...Patrick somewhere as an ancestor?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on July 03, 2005, 07:37:48 PM
Probably. Or a Patter!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 03, 2005, 09:18:35 PM
Who the heck names their kid Patter?

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 04, 2005, 09:29:11 AM
Quote
Who the heck names their kid Patter?



lolz dunno. but it would be just a little weird. its probly short for patrick or somtin like that.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 04, 2005, 03:22:36 PM
Let's just go with Patrick. I'm Scottish on that side and Patrick comes from Ireland and theyre close so...yea
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 04, 2005, 03:32:49 PM
yes patrick is a very irish name lolz. i'll go wit any thing close 2 ireland. but i adore how ur middle name is ur fathers name... its kind of a good idea!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 05, 2005, 01:04:26 PM
Why do women that marry the tsarevich take on the patronimic Feodorovna?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 05, 2005, 06:04:01 PM
Quote
Why do women that marry the tsarevich take on the patronimic Feodorovna?


ya no i have thought of that for a long time. and i havn't figured it out yet!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 05, 2005, 07:23:25 PM
I mean, who's Feodor?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on July 05, 2005, 07:56:01 PM
An Icon of the Theotokos Mary (the Virgin Mary) particularly revered by the Romanov Family  is called Feodorovskiya, so there could be something to do with that. Also the name Theodore (Feodor) means Gift of God in Greek. (If you've seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding you will know that every word comes from Greek ;)!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Glebb on July 06, 2005, 08:20:29 AM
And there is no Th sound in the Russian language, correct?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: J_Zhivago on July 06, 2005, 11:23:14 AM
That's correct;  Russian doesn't have a "th" sound.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: J_Zhivago on July 06, 2005, 12:11:06 PM
I guess if they had taken their fathers' names for their patronymics, we'd have Alexandra Louisovna and Marie Christianovna.  I get the impression that using foreign names in patronymics sounds a little silly in Russian.  In Crime and Punishment, there's a landlady who's a German immigrant, and her name is made fun of as sort of a joke:  Amalia Ludwignovna. (She wants to be called Amalia Ivanovna, which of course sounds better).  I realize that this doesn't explain why everybody used "Feodorovna," but it might explain why they didn't use their own fathers' names.  

Is there anyone from Russia here who can vouch for this?  Do foreign names in patronymics sound ridiculous?  (I can speak some Russian, but not enough to have a real feel for this.)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 06, 2005, 03:36:05 PM
Quote
An Icon of the Theotokos Mary (the Virgin Mary) particularly revered by the Romanov Family  is called Feodorovskiya, so there could be something to do with that. Also the name Theodore (Feodor) means Gift of God in Greek. (If you've seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding you will know that every word comes from Greek ;)!


Kimono does too. It comes from the Greek word kimon which means robe.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 06, 2005, 03:53:41 PM
but isn't kimono like the kimono dragon?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: lostfan on July 06, 2005, 04:07:32 PM
I think that's the komodo dragon ;)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 06, 2005, 04:46:54 PM
(http://kimono.fraise.net/gallery/kitsuke/fuji1-2.jpg)

^a kimono
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Laura Mabee on July 06, 2005, 05:32:41 PM
I just thought that I would add that kimono's are very beautiful, and it does take a lot of work and skill to make a genuine silk kimono.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 06, 2005, 09:24:30 PM
They ARE gorgeous. When I was in Japan I saw some women wearing them on New Years and they were unbelievable.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on July 07, 2005, 07:16:20 PM
I like that Greek connection for kimono. Though actually ki is from kiru (to wear) mono (thing) so a kimono is "a thing one wears".

As for there being no Th in Russian, while this is true, up until the revolution, the letter "Theta" was used and so Feodorovna did not start with the "F" letter but with the "Th" letter.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: cimbrio on July 18, 2005, 09:29:31 AM
It is now becoming out of use to use patronymics when addressing someone, unless one's talking to an elderly person, maybe a teacher. No one calls their brother, parent or child Name and Patronymic, they just stick to the name (or a derivation, like Misha-Michael, Dima-Dimitri,Masha-Maria, Natasha-Natalia, etc). Also, no one uses Mr and Mrs (Gospodin, Gospozha). These terms were dropped after 1918 and it's very old fashioned (I think it could be an equivalent of "My lord" and "My lady" in English though I'm not 100% sure, but that's the main idea. Everyon'es "comrade" now (Tavarish).
DAWSR
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on July 18, 2005, 05:10:30 PM
Well, I often hear older people brought up during the communist era using tovarishch, but the word leaves a nasty taste in the mouths of a lot of Orthodox Christians  - who don't forget were persecuted by the communist authorities. I remember last year at a Church picnic at a local beach, my wife and I were met by some people that only come along to picnics, who said to my (then fiancee) "Greetings Comrade, where is the picnic?", and when my wife heard the word comrade her jaw just dropped.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 18, 2005, 09:02:48 PM
Quote
It is now becoming out of use to use patronymics when addressing someone, unless one's talking to an elderly person, maybe a teacher. No one calls their brother, parent or child Name and Patronymic, they just stick to the name (or a derivation, like Misha-Michael, Dima-Dimitri,Masha-Maria, Natasha-Natalia, etc).


I looked over a few old faxes in my filies and see that I have used Gospodin to address an educated Russian gentleman. In another fax a naval officer was address as Kapitan I Ranga, while in another fax a woman who went on to be a Minister in Yeltin's cabinet was addressed as Madame (she was addressed like this in person also). In speaking with people of traditional standing, that is military and naval officers, professors, museum curators, scientists, government officials, I have always used the given name and patronymic. I would guess that if there is some disuse of the patronymic, it would be among the working classes rather than the elite of the universities, military and government.

DAP
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Joy on July 30, 2005, 11:00:28 PM
However, Alexander II's wife, born princess Maria of Hesse-Darmstadt, was called Maria Aleksandrovna...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: cimbrio on July 31, 2005, 04:08:08 PM
Quote

Kimono does too. It comes from the Greek word kimon which means robe.



I'm sorry to correct you but I think you'll find that Kimono comes from the Japanese "ki" meaning "to wear" and "mono" meaning "thing" (so, thing to wear). I think you got that from the film "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" when 2 American girls make fun of the Greek dad, who always talks about how all words come from Greek, so they say "OK Mr Portokalos, what about the word kimono?" and he replies it comes from the Ancient Greek word "Khimona", but it evidently doesn't (that's the whole joke Margarita Markova...). Check any etymology dictionary :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 31, 2005, 04:22:07 PM
I know the joke, do you honestly think I was serious?  ???
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: cimbrio on July 31, 2005, 04:36:59 PM
OOOOps :P Sorry!  :o didn't read all the post :P I did think you were being serious, I appologise :P No harm done I hope :)  :-/  :-*
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on July 31, 2005, 04:49:06 PM
Nope, no harm done! ;D I'm still alive! ;)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on August 04, 2005, 11:30:38 AM
I know the imperial children had a bevy of nicknames: Baby, Sunbeam, Girlies, 5 Treasures, Governess, Mashka, Schvibzik, etc. but with the exception of Mashka, they're all very particular to the personalities of each family member. What about the more 'standard' Russian nicknames like Olya, Tanya, Marochka, Nastya, Alyosha, and their infinite variations? Has anybody ever seen the imperial children referred to in writing this way? And if not, how likely is it that they, as Russian speakers, might have used these forms among themselves?
Sm
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 04, 2005, 11:49:15 AM
Well I don't think that they would reffer to themselves by those nicknames (Olushka, Taneshka, Mashka, Mashen'ka, Nastya, Nastenka) Those are not the same type of nicknames as there is in the English speaking language. In Russian those are just used by family or relatives of what ever to reffer to a person by a softer and some what nicer way, like me and Anstasia share the same name, and my parents call me Nastya or Nastenka!

~Anastacia~
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Duchess_Scarlett on August 04, 2005, 01:34:53 PM
I've never heard those Russian nicknames before, how did they get them?

Scarlett
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on August 04, 2005, 05:01:19 PM
They are just endearments. Russian is quite wonderful with a plethora of suffixes you can add to the names to make them ever more endearing to the point of being cloying. Of course there are also derogatory suffixes.
No doubt they referred to each other using the normal 'endearment' forms of their names. It is quite formal sounding for a family member to call an Olga "Olga", Olya or Olechka or the like would be quite normal. I know Olga refers to Tatiana as Tanya in her diary.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: hikaru on August 05, 2005, 01:49:48 PM
Maybe, Tatiana was named after the beloved sister of Tsary Alexey - Tsarevna Tatiana.
She was beloved aunty of Peter the Great too.
She lived till 71 , and died at 1706.
It is well known, that Nicholas II adored the Alexey 's time.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on August 05, 2005, 06:54:06 PM
Thank you, Georgiy & Anastacia -- this is just the sort of cultural nuance my classroom Russian skills didn't cover...

I've never run across any instance of the family using those endearments in their letters to one another, but with English translations especially, I can't be sure if that's because the family didn't use them or if the editors are trying to "simplify" the text for non-Russians. >:(  Of course, I can't claim to have read ALL their letters, either!

Do you suppose Alix, being primarily an English speaker, would have picked up the Russian endearment habit? In her letters to Nicky (the ones I've read, anyhow) she generally refers to the girls by their full names or initials, so I wasn't sure just how Russified her language may have been.
Sm

ps: I've also posted a question about OTMAA's use of the formal & informal pronouns in Russian. If either of you guys can help me out there, too, I'd sure love it!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: bookworm857158367 on August 05, 2005, 10:27:15 PM
In "The Riddle of Anna Anderson" there's a description of someone who knew the Romanovs visiting Anna Anderson in the sanitarium. She has been told the woman is pretending to be Tatiana, so she whispers softly "Tanechka?"

I would assume from that that Tanechka was another of the nicknames Tatiana was called by family and friends. From what I know of Russian names, my best guess is that the girls were commonly Olya, Tanya, Mashka, and Nastya, and that Alexei was Alyosha when he wasn't called Baby. Those are the common Russian nicknames for those names, sort of like Jim for James, Mike for Michael and Liz for Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lizameridox on August 06, 2005, 12:10:11 PM
Alyosha, Alyoshka, Alyoshenka, Alyoshechka, Lyolyushka, Lyolyushechka...  and so on   ::)

Also KROshka (in the sense of tiny), MALenkiy(Little Fellow), SolNEETCHke (Russian for 'Sunbeam'), SoKROveeshe (treasure) and MOye/NAshe rodNOye (my/our very own boy)

But it would never do to call him 'MAlenkiy TsesarYEvichka' because in that case the suffix would conflict with his gender.  I was surprised when I found that out.  I am still learning to speak Russian.  So... 'malenkiy Tsesaryevich'.  And also:  we being just regular people could never even have addressed the Imperial Children even as 'Your Imperial Highness' without being spoken to.  It is a sign of love or particular friendship among Russians for them to use the diminutive forms of Christian names amongst themselves.  We lose this distinction in the United States where we are not used to monarchy, formality or the polite conventions of other countries.  

One of the Tsarevich's young friends at the Stavka reminisced:

'He has said that I may call him 'Alyosha' when we are by ourselves, but around grownups 'Alexei Nikolaevich' and 'Your Highness' in front of his father.'

It would have been a privilege if the Heir had said to anyone outside the family circle 'You may call me "Alexei Nikolaevich".
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 16, 2005, 04:54:15 PM
I believe Feodorovna just means "daughter of God", and the Imperial wives took the name if their father's names lacked a Russian equivalent.  I don't know Russian but I know enough about linguistics to make a "highly" educated guess.  
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on August 16, 2005, 06:40:41 PM
It doesn't mean Daughter of God. Feodor comes from the Greek name "Theodore" which means Gift of God. Literally speaking Feodorovna means Daughter of Theodore, but as I said earlier, an Icon of the Mother of God particularly revered by the Romanov family is the Feodorovskaya, so probably that is why Feodorovna was a popular patronym to give to foreign brides who married into the Romanov family.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: cimbrio on August 16, 2005, 06:42:16 PM
Feodorovna simply means daughter of Fyodor /=Theodor); as far as I know it has nothing to do with God...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on August 16, 2005, 07:47:07 PM
Yes, but the name Theodore means Gift of God. Not only because of the icon, but also because of the meaning of the name, I can easily see symbolic relevance for the use of that name in Romanov brides.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LenelorMiksi on August 17, 2005, 02:06:10 PM
Hmmm...all of you are right, the name doesn't just mean  "daughter of God".  I got a little carried away when I thought of it because it seemed so fitting.  So general; in a Christian sense every Christian woman would be a daughter of God, or even every woman on Earth since God created everything.  However, I discovered another thread on AF discussing the same phenomenon.  
http://hydrogenpallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=alix;action=display;num=1104100358
I think my question is now, why was St. Feodor so important?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on August 17, 2005, 05:05:50 PM
Well there are several St Theodores, but for the Romanovs, one significance of the name is related to an icon of the Virgin Mary Theotokos, known as Feodorovskaia. I don't know why the icon is called this, maybe it was from an area called Feodorovsk, or belonged to or was written by someone called Feodor.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP on August 17, 2005, 06:41:50 PM
Quote
Why do women that marry the tsarevich take on the patronimic Feodorovna?


Dear Margarita,

I believe that there are historical reasons here instead of religious reasons or even reasons of national importance.

The great hero of all Russia was Rurik.  Many of the noble families claim descendancy from Rurik or his relatives, tribes, etc.

For many years, Russia was ruled by Tzars that could claim their direct descendancy from Rurik, or to speak, the father of all Russia.  The last true Rurik Tzar of Russia was Feodor I, who perhaps was a little off mentally, I hate to say it, but in any case when he lost his only daugther, he truly became off mentally.

Thus, when foreign women became Empresses of Russia, they were given the name Feodorovna as  name of historical importance, being the daugthers of Feodor I, the last of the Rurik Tzars and a transitional point in Russian history.  The Romanov dynasty could NOT claim descendancy to Rurik but the use of such a patronymic created an IMPRESSION of descendancy.  In the 19th century, however, the mental condition of Feodor I was off-limits for discussion and thus the negative implications of the name would also have not been known to the general public.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on August 18, 2005, 03:58:01 PM
Thank you for that information AlexP. I don't know if ou will know the answer, but the Feodorovskaia icon of the Theotokos - is that connected to the House of Rurik too?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP on August 19, 2005, 10:15:49 AM
Quote
Thank you for that information AlexP. I don't know if ou will know the answer, but the Feodorovskaia icon of the Theotokos - is that connected to the House of Rurik too?


Dorogoi moi Grishka,

Maladetz..you have me stumbled...I don't now the answer to this question, not even remotely....

Belochka, Hikarushka, Cvetabel,  please help here.

This is an excellent question.

A.A.

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP on August 19, 2005, 10:31:47 AM
Quote


I'm sorry to correct you but I think you'll find that Kimono comes from the Japanese "ki" meaning "to wear" and "mono" meaning "thing" (so, thing to wear). I think you got that from the film "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" when 2 American girls make fun of the Greek dad, who always talks about how all words come from Greek, so they say "OK Mr Portokalos, what about the word kimono?" and he replies it comes from the Ancient Greek word "Khimona", but it evidently doesn't (that's the whole joke Margarita Markova...). Check any etymology dictionary :)


Dear Cimbrio:

You are in for a little etymological surprise here.

Japanese is not a language unto itself.  Japanese is a borrowed language, mainly from from old Chinese, beginning with the Five Kingdoms and Ten Dynasties period (late 900s AD Western Style) and ending with the early Ming Dynasty (late 1300s AD, Western Style).  There was also a similar but less noticeable import of ancient Korean into the Japanese language, beginning with the Unified Shilla period and ending in the early Cholon dynasty.  Thus, the majority of Japanese words written in "kanjii" are of Chinese origin -- 100%-- and many, many of the words that are written in hiragana or katakana, if they are not Western in origin, also prior to the World War had their own form of Chinese character, which has since been dropped (the names of animals, flowers, etc., etc.)  are of either classicial Korean or of classical Chinese origin.  While many of the Japanese words have evolved in pronunciation from the Chinese and the Korean over the centuries, some of them have not, and are clearly recognizable to speakers of any of the three languages.

All Japanese words are thus of other sources, as is the word "kimono", although it is no longer written in the old-fashioned traditional "kanji" the way it was during the Meijii Period which would have clearly showed its traditional origins.  Additionally, the Chinese language today has been modified so that there are no  more 72-stroke words in written Chinese  and thus a direct modern comparison of the Chinese word to the Japanee word will fail to turn up evident similarities.  Nonetheless,  a comparison of classical late Ching Dynasty Chinese to Meiji Period Japanese will indead reveal the similarities, and quite clearly so.

The traditional Chinese characters contained a meaning of both "overcoat", "dress", "long", with "shades of silk" and also denoted an "imported", or non-indigenous form of address.  I should point out, additionally, there was considerable commerce between early-to-mid Byzantium and China during the very early Ming Dynasty, or about the time the symbols for this particular word became codified in the traditional Chinese characters, and there was also considerable commerce between China and Japan and thus indirectly between Japan and the rest of the world (as Japan was essentially shut to the Western World during this period, while China was not) and thus

it is NOT at all improbable that this word, or the concept and formation of the characters may have been introduced into China by Byzantium, or early Greece, as we see the Chinese characters for this word appearing only for the first time in the late 1300s and they were subsequently introduced in to Japan via China or Korea.  Again, remember, here in China, they were printing and writing while the West was still chasing animals through the forests of Western Europe.  And it has been noted that these characters are more prevalent in the parts of China that then were on the Silk Road and its predecessors with Byzantium than elsewhere in the nation.  Etymological history thus argues favorably in terms of what the poster wrote, although perhaps the poster may have not been aware of all of this eytmological history.

So while I do appreciate your reference to the other poster to consult an etymological dictionary, I believe that my assessment may be both broader-based and a more accurate one, speaking int terms of pure historical etymology.

There is a long series of articles on this subject in the Beijing University of Foreign Languages (online) Library if you have a reading knowledge of Chinese.

Hoping that this helps, I remain, with all of the very best,

Yours Truly from Shanghai,


A.A.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: hikaru on August 19, 2005, 10:50:41 AM
As far as I remember , Feodorovskaya was a house icon of the mother of Mikhail Romanov. She was in Kostroma.
(Maybe, it was related with Anastasiya Romanova - the first wife of Iwan The Terrible)

As for Kanji, I think that they came to Japan from China before 5th century. Because Taketori Monogatari was written at about 5th century.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP on August 19, 2005, 11:04:35 AM
Quote
As far as I remember , Feodorovskaya was a house icon of the mother of Mikhail Romanov. She was in Kostroma.
(Maybe, it was related with Anastasiya Romanova - the first wife of Iwan The Terrible)

As for Kanji, I think that they came to Japan from China before 5th century. Because Taketori Monogatari was written at about 5th century.



Hello, Hikarushka,

Thank you very much for your kind posting.  I am referring to the great import of codied Chinese traditional characters into the Japanese language.  Yes, indeed, it is true, the original kanjii characters appeared in the 5th Century, but that it would place them squarely in the middle of the Five Nations 10 Dynasty period that I mentioned above.

With kind regards from Shanghai,


A.A.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: hikaru on August 20, 2005, 12:55:35 AM
Some explanation about Feodorovskaya Virgin
(or Virgin of Feodor)
The icon of Virgin of Theodor looks a lot like Virgin of Vladimir except the pose of the Child's legs.
According to a legend, this icon firstly appeared on 16th August 1239 to the  Duke Georgy Kwashnya during the hunt.  She became to be called Feodorovskaya , because when she appeared before Duke , it was holy martyr Feodor Stratilat who beared the icon.  
This icon also was located in the cathedral dedicated to the Feodor Stratilat.

Before this icon Maria Iwanovna Romanovna gave her acceptance when Mikhil was elected as the Tsar of Hole Russia.
Later, in 1620, mother went to Kostroma to pray before the Virgio of  Feodor. Since that time, the icon became popular and a lot of icon of such type were painted.
Since 17th century this icon was considered as the Family Icon of Romanov Dinasty.
The oldest icon of Feodorovskaya Virgin is in Kostroma now.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Alixz on August 20, 2005, 01:43:46 PM
Greg King in The Last Empress simply calls Feodorovna "the most common of Russian patronyms"

Coryne  Hall  Little Mother Of Russia says of MF "the partronymic "Fedorovna" (Gift of God) was a tradional one for foreign brides."

I have always wondered if there were more to it than that,

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP on August 21, 2005, 06:22:28 AM
Quote
Greg King in The Last Empress simply calls Feodorovna "the most common of Russian patronyms"

Coryne  Hall  Little Mother Of Russia says of MF "the partronymic "Fedorovna" (Gift of God) was a tradional one for foreign brides."

I have always wondered if there were more to it than that,




Dear AlixY,

First, welcome to the Board.  I haven't been here so long either, and when I arrived, I was given a rather cold reception, so I make it a habit to extend my best to all those who have come after me.

Please, please do NOT use the King and Wilson book as the Bible for all things Russian.  It is NOT.  There are many inaccuracies, and I keep pointing them out and pointing them out.  

And Feodorova "as the most common patronymic" is another GLARING error.  It is not.  That would mean that Feodor is one of the most common Russian Christian names for men, and that IS not true, not now, not ever.  I cannot give you a definite order, but the most common Russian Christian names are (with no order here) Nikolai, Vladimir, Alexander, Mikhail, Boris, Igor, Ivan, Vassili, Giorgii, Viktor, Andrei, Piotr, Kirill, Konstantin, etc.  Feodor as "the most common patronymic" is near the bottom of the list, for many reason.  First, by the end the 18th Century this name was already deeply falling out of favor.  Second, in terms of Slavic names, it is not.  The Greek origins of the word Feodor are very, very visibly present to an educated Russian-speaking person.  Third, in Russian Christian families, in some cases, children are named for the nearest saint as to the day when they were born.  Feodor is a relatively minor saint in the Russian Orthodox order of things.  So when King writes that is the most "common of all Russian patronymics", this displays a glaring inaccuracy in terms of Russian etymology and Russian Orthodox history.

Thus, I believe that the explanation that I have made, and which Rob Moshein  has also made, is the accurate one.

I invite your comments.  And once again, welcome to this Board.

With all of the very best from Shanghai,


A.A.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on August 22, 2005, 11:13:30 PM
And a big thankyou to Hikaru for the interesting history of the Feodorovskaya icon. I can see now its significance to the Romanov family.

Like knowing one of the major Scandinavian languages means you can understand a fair amount of the others (not Finnish though!), knowing Chinese characters can be a big help in getting the gist of other east Asian languages. For my part, being bilingual in Japanese means that I can get a good idea of what a written Chinese text is about. Korean tends not to use Kanji now, but many words of course came via Chinese, and knowing the Japanese pronunication, one can work backwards sometimes if you see a Korean word transcribed into English letters.  For example, in the building where I work is a Korean bank called "Kookmin". I presume that it is the same as Kokumin in Japanese (a Sino-Japanese proninciation) meaning 'The People" (ie the people of one's country). Native Japanese pronunciationof the characters Kokumin are 'kuni' and 'tami'.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: gem_10 on September 11, 2005, 10:08:58 AM
In wikipedia, Alexandra Georgievna's patronymic is Yurievna not Georgievna. Which one is right?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Svetabel on September 11, 2005, 11:36:27 AM
Georgievna is right. Actually names "Yuriy" and "Georgiy" were the same in old Russian language,even nowadays you can meet a man who calls himself "Yuriy" but his real name (by birth and passport) is "Georgiy"  :).
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: lostfan on September 11, 2005, 05:07:16 PM
Quote
In wikipedia, Alexandra Georgievna's patronymic is Yurievna not Georgievna. Which one is right?



I edited it last night (for Alexandra AND Marie of Greece) from Yurievna to Georgievna, so it shouldn't say Yurievna anymore ???
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: gem_10 on September 12, 2005, 12:39:24 AM
Hehe...thanks for that!  :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Caleb on September 14, 2005, 04:11:38 PM
I'm assuming Olga was named after Nicholas's sister Olga
I don't know about Tatiana
I'm assuming that Marie was named after her grandmother Marie Feodorovna
It wouldnt suprose me that Anastasia was named after Tsar Ivan the Terrible's wife Anastasia Romanova
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: RomanovFan on September 19, 2005, 01:02:32 PM
I just figured this out:

Olga- named after one of the heroines in one of Evgeni Oreigen's plays; this play was Alexandra's favorite.

Tatiana- same as her older sister

Maria- named after Maria Feodorovna, her grandmother and for the Virgin Mary

Anastasia- possibly named for Stana of Montegengro, and for the first Anastasia Romanov, wife of Ivan the Terrible

Aleksei- named for Tsar Aleksei the Mild  
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on September 20, 2005, 10:12:33 PM
Well, Maria is not named for the Virgin Mary, as we do not, in the Orthodox Faith, name children after the Virgin - her Patron Saint was Mary Magdalene. I have seen icons with the IF's patron Saints (who they were named after), and Maria's 'angel' (Saint) is Mary Magdalene.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 20, 2005, 11:09:02 PM
Quote
I think Anastasia Nikolaevna was named in honor of Anastasia Mikhailovna (I think that was her patronym) who ended up introducing Alix to Rasputin.  She introduced Alix to that Philippe fellow.  BTW, Ivan's wife was Anastasia Romanovna--she wasn't a Romanov AFAIK, though I think she was related to them.  I forget what her surname was.


Lanie is correct that Anastasia Romanovna did not carry the surname Romanov. She married Ivan the Terrible. and was mother of Tsar Feodor. Anastasia's nephew was Feodor Nikitavich, who became Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church. This Feodor used the surname Romanov in honor of his aunt.

Feodor Romanov's son, Michael Feodorovich, became the first tsar of the Romanov dynasty in 1613.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Kseniya on September 21, 2005, 04:36:51 AM
Anastasia Romanovna's surname was Zakharina-Yurieva.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Caleb on November 07, 2005, 05:17:17 PM
A friend of the family (the same friend who said he met a Russian woman who was a little girl during the Russian Revolution & saw Rasputin's body being fished out of the river) once asked me the meaning of the name "Romanov" he asked me if it came about because the family wanted to be traced to the Roman Empire. Can anybody tell me the meaning?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: romios on November 07, 2005, 09:53:05 PM
thats right they saw themselves as the continuation of the Roman Empire after the fall of Constantinople in1453, hence the name Romanov and Moscow being called the new Rome!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Shvibzik on November 08, 2005, 03:43:54 PM
I was just thinking about that today, and was debating whether or not I would ask. ;)

But I do have one question (kind of stupid, though):  Where did the "ov" come from?  I know it is a common ending for Russian names, so is that why?    
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: james_h on November 08, 2005, 05:49:57 PM



I believe ov/off means of...eg..

Romanov = of roman
Yusupov  = of Yusuf
Urusosv   = of Urus
Golitsyn    = of Golitsa
etc.....

Why an unimportant moscovite boyar family adopted  the presumtious of Roman is beyond me. I think it's probably more likely that they are "of" a man named Roman as opposed to "of" the Roman empire.

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Grand Duke on November 08, 2005, 06:38:26 PM
Quote
thats right they saw themselves as the continuation of the Roman Empire after the fall of Constantinople in 1453, hence the name Romanov and Moscow being called the new Rome!


After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the role of the Emperor as patron of Eastern Orthodoxy was claimed by the Grand Dukes of Moscow starting with Ivan III (who was from the Rurik Dinasty, not a Romanov).
His grandson Ivan IV would become the first Tsar of Russia (tsar - also spelled czar - being derived from the Latin caesar) .
Their successors supported the idea that Moscow was the proper heir to Rome and Constantinople, a Third Rome - an idea carried through the Russian Empire, until its own demise in the early 20th century.


Quote
Why an unimportant moscovite boyar family adopted  the presumtious of Roman is beyond me. I think it's probably more likely that they are "of" a man named Roman as opposed to "of" the Roman empire.


The Romanovs share their origin with two dozens of Russian noble families. Their earliest common ancestor is one Andrei Kobyla, attested as a boyar in the service of Semyon I of Moscow. Later generations assigned to Kobyla the most illustrious pedigrees. At first it was claimed that he came to Moscow from Prussia in 1341, where his father had been a famous rebel. In the late 17th century, a fictional line of his descent from Julius Caesar was published.

It's likely that Kobyla's origins were less spectacular. Not only is Kobyla Russian for mare, but his relatives were also nicknamed after horses and other house animals, thus suggesting descent from one of the royal equerries. One of Kobyla's sons, Fyodor, a boyar in the boyar duma of Dmitri Donskoi, was nicknamed Koshka (cat). His descendants took the surname Koshkin, then changed it to Zakharin, which family later split into two branches: Zakharin-Yakovlev and Zakharin-Yuriev. During the reign of Ivan the Terrible, the former family became known as Yakovlev (Alexander Herzen being the most illustrious of them), whereas grandchildren of Roman Zakharin-Yuriev changed their name to Romanov.


Conclusion: "Romanov" meaning is not from the Roman Empire but from a family member called Roman.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 08, 2005, 07:42:29 PM
I am in absolute agreement with you Grand Duke! Very good and thorough explaination of the surname.

David
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: romios on November 08, 2005, 09:20:36 PM
Grand Duke,
Why did they take on Roman's First name?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 09, 2005, 03:34:20 PM
Taking on a father's given name as a surname is quite common in European cultures, hence Hansen, Johanson, Johnson, Jones, Owens, Richardson, Evans and many more. My own surname has such an origin ap Richard Welsh for son of Richard contracted to Pritchard.


David
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on November 09, 2005, 08:30:42 PM
Thanks for the explanation Grand Duke, it was very thorough and interesting. It definately answered a lot of questions I had about the origins of the name.  :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Caleb on November 09, 2005, 09:52:46 PM
Thanks, Grand Duke, I can pass the information to my family friend.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 09, 2005, 09:57:21 PM
I am surprised no one mentioned that the Roman for whom the surname was derived was the father of the wife of Ivan the Terrible, Anastasia Romanovna. It is likely the family assumed the name in her honor.

I find it interesting the first member of this family associated with the throne was an Anastasia, as was the last tsar's last daughter.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: rskkiya on November 12, 2005, 11:41:38 AM
Quote
I am surprised no one mentioned that the Roman for whom the surname was derived was the father of the wife of Ivan the Terrible, Anastasia Romanovna. It is likely the family assumed the name in her honor.

I find it interesting the first member of this family associated with the throne was an Anastasia, as was the last tsar's last daughter.


   I thought that it derived from that family connection, too.
   After the original "time of troubles" - this name recognition helped to connect the newly installed ruling house of  Romanovs with the image of Ivan the Awsome (terrible).
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AGRBear on November 13, 2005, 01:03:07 PM
Here is a some family genealogy:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=roots;action=display;num=1093717443

Post #5

It shows the first "Romanov"  [son of Roman].

Here is a link which shows the family tree of Andrey Ivanovich Kobyla:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/russia/romanov1.html

AGRBear
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on November 29, 2005, 11:43:17 PM
It should be remembered that HH Prince Ioann Konstantinovich of Russia was not the first in his family to bear the given name of Ioann. HIM Emperor Ioann III Antonovich of Russia (born on 12 August 1740 O.S. at St. Petersburg and murdered on 5 July 1764 O.S. at Shlüsselburg Fortress) bore this name long before. Unfortunately history remembers the Infant-Emperor as Ivan VI rather than by the name that was actually used.

Examples of coinage bearing his image attest that he was Ioann III during his short reign:

http://www.library.yale.edu/slavic/coins/html/ivan6.html

http://www.museum.com.ua/en/editing/period7/

http://coinomania.com/catalog/worldcoins101.htm
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: matushka on November 30, 2005, 03:53:15 PM
In fact, Ioann is also the church's form of the name Ivan. Ethymologicaly closer to the hebraic original, it is in Russia the name of saint John the Evangelist or John the Baptist (Ioann Bogoslov, Ioann Krestitel').
All the orthodox Ivans are named Ioann in the church, when they go to take communion, the priest say "the servant of God Ioann". When a young man called Ivan became priest, he will be "father Ioann", not "father Ivan". Ivan the Terrible and other rulers Ivans were also officially Ioann, as Mr Pritchard noticed about "Ivan VI". I forgot which (I will search), but I remember we can find documents with the name Ioann instead of Ivan (the third, the fourth...).
Ioann is also a more "noble" form, Ivan a classical popular name.
Are these 2 facts related to the choice of KR and Elisaveta Mavrikevna, I really do not know.
The nickname Ioannchik can be find also in the Imperial family'letters and diary (I mean the Tsar, Empress and children).
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: cimbrio on December 09, 2005, 05:02:31 AM
Ivan is the Russian for John. Johann is the German for John; I have an idea they called this Prince Ioann following the German pronunciation (this is, a translatiteration, and not a translation) of the German named Johann. He was called "Ioannchik" by his closest relatives, so I generally refer to him as Ioann, and his chidlren's patronymics are Ioannovich and Ioannovna.

The best way to know what the family knew him by and what he called himself would be to check letters or diaries, but I have access to none. Can anyoen help?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on December 11, 2005, 02:06:47 PM
Sorry Cimbrio, but in this case you are not right. Ioann is the old Russian pronuciation of John - Ivan is a contraction of that. All icons of Saints with the name of 'John' are written as Ioann. For example St John of Kronstadt is Svyaty Ioann Kronshtadsky, not Ivan Kronshtadsky. It is more old fashioned and Churchey sounding perhaps, but quite definately Russian by way of Greek and Hebrew. I know a few Ioanns myself.

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: cimbrio on December 11, 2005, 02:20:05 PM
Mea culpa George :P I should chekc my sources. All the same, sinc ehe was half German, I suppose Ioann would be closer to his maternal relatives than Ivan ;) Ah well, thanks for the cosntructive correction
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Laurence on December 18, 2005, 06:05:22 AM
I think I understand the system of patronyms - it appears to be relatively straightforward except where women became members of the Imperial Family from 'outside' and were required to choose a name.

Can anyone explain why Dagmar, Alix and Victoria Melita all chose Feodorovna as their patronym? What's the significance of Feodor?  The logical choice would surely have been a Russian version of their own fathers' names.

Moderators : If this has been discussed elsewhere (I was unable to find it using the search facility), please direct me to the discussion and delete this thread.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Jackswife on December 18, 2005, 07:02:30 AM
 What I've always heard, is that Feodor was the patron saint of converts, and that since Dagmar and Alix were converted to Orthodoxy, that that was the reason for the selection of the patronym.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Laurence on December 18, 2005, 08:07:37 AM
Well that makes sense!  Thank you.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: julia.montague on December 18, 2005, 08:33:33 AM
But not all the women who converted had Feodorovna as their patronym, did they?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 18, 2005, 10:16:10 AM
This topic has indeed been discussed before, and you are certainly welcome to use the search features to find it.

To answer your question, St. Feodor is the patron saint of the Romanov family. Since many of the Germanic first names would not translate well - or worse yet, mark the incoming Grand Duchess as a foreigner in xenophobic Russia, the brides chose this as an alternative.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Laurence on December 19, 2005, 02:56:25 AM
My apologies for starting a thread on a previously discussed topic.  I endeavoured to find it using 'Search' but without success.  Thank you for the replies.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: José on January 13, 2006, 03:12:18 PM
Can someone explain if there was a rule concerning the name of the princesses who married in the IF ?

Most of them change their christian name and adopted Feodorovna. eg:
Charlotte of Prussia oo Nicholas I;
Dagmar of DK and Elizabeth and Alix H-D;
Cecilia of Baden oo GD Mihail.
Why Feodorovna ? In honnour of the tsar Theodore ? Or Theodore father of Michael III, the 1st Romanov ?

Others apparently adopted their father's name:
Alexandra Iosifovna (dau. of Joseph Sx Altenburg)
Maria Georgeievna (dau. of George of Gk)

Others didn't change eg: Alexandra of Gk oo GD Paul or change it according to none of the examples before:
Maria Pavlovna oo GD Vladimir.

How did they choose/or were chosen a name ?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on January 13, 2006, 07:25:41 PM
There was a thread a while ago on this- it shouldn't be more than a couple pages back. ;)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on January 15, 2006, 01:42:29 PM
As far as the change of first name is concerned: if the Princess was to become Orthodox that means she must be baptised into the Orthodox faith, and take an Orhtodox Saint's name. This Saint is her Patron Saint, and the day honouring that Saint is a very special one for the person bearing that name - called 'Name Day' in English, but known as 'Angel Day' in Russian.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Angie_H on January 15, 2006, 02:23:53 PM
Since the 2 daughters of George of Greece that married into the IF were already practicing Orthodoxy they wouldn't have to change their names would they?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on January 15, 2006, 02:43:18 PM
No. Not if they were Greek Orthodox with Orthodox names.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 15, 2006, 06:54:34 PM
Quote
Can someone explain if there was a rule concerning the name of the princesses who married in the IF ?

Most of them change their christian name and adopted Feodorovna. eg:
Charlotte of Prussia oo Nicholas I;
Dagmar of DK and Elizabeth and Alix H-D;
Cecilia of Baden oo GD Mihail.
Why Feodorovna ? In honnour of the tsar Theodore ? Or Theodore father of Michael III, the 1st Romanov ?

Others apparently adopted their father's name:
Alexandra Iosifovna (dau. of Joseph Sx Altenburg)
Maria Georgeievna (dau. of George of Gk)

Others didn't change eg: Alexandra of Gk oo GD Paul or change it according to none of the examples before:
Maria Pavlovna oo GD Vladimir.

How did they choose/or were chosen a name ?


There are several topic areas which discuss the significance of the patronymic "Feodorovna". St. Feodor was the Romanov's patron saint.

So, princesses marrying into the Imperial Family could use either their own fathers' names or Feodorovna. Their first names had to be the names of Orthodox saints if they were converting.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on January 15, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
Quote

There are several topic areas which discuss the significance of the patronymic "Feodorovna".


Here's one of 'em:
Why Feodorovna? (http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=alix;action=display;num=1104100358)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: lovy on January 30, 2006, 03:45:44 AM
Nicholas = 'Nicky'
Alexandra = 'Alix' or 'Alicky' or 'Sunny'
Olga = 'Olishka' or 'Olya'
Tatiana = 'Tanya' or 'Tatya' or 'Tanushka'
Maria = 'Marie' or 'Mashka'
Anastasia = 'Shvibzik' or 'Nastya' or 'Nastas' or 'Nastenka'
Alexei = 'Baby' or 'Alyosha' or 'Lyoshka'

Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna = 'Baby'
Grand Duke George = 'Georgie'
Grand Duke Mikhail = 'Misha'
The Dowager Empress Marie = 'Minnie'
Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich = 'Sandro'
Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaevich = 'Nikolasha'

That's all I know...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: hikaru on January 30, 2006, 07:27:34 AM
Sergey Alexadrovich= Gega
Pavel Alexandrovich = Pits or Pauly
George, prince of Greece = Georgy or Borovich
Nikolay Nikolaevith (senior, who dead in 1891)= Nizi\
Queen Victoria =Dyukan
Maria , princesse of Greece = Mini or Minerle
Alexandra, princesse of Greece = Alix
Mikhayl Mikhaylovich = Mish -Mish
Alexandr III = Tatti
Olyga Nikolaevna ( daughter of Nicholas I) = Aunt Olly
Mikhayl Alexandrovich = Mishkin
Nikolay Alexandrovich ( brother of Alexandr III) = Niksa
Maria Pavlovna ( daughter of Paul Alexandrovich)= baboon
Alexandra Iosifovna = Sunny
Maria Alexandrovna ( sister of Alexandr III)= Mari
Maria Pavlovna = Mikheny




Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on January 30, 2006, 08:34:21 AM
As far as I can tell, NAOTMAA seem to have only rarely used Russian diminuative nicknames (Olya, Tanya, etc) with one another, with the exception of Mashka for Maria. According to Valentina Chebotareva, who worked with the Big Pair in the palace lazaret, the children most often used their given names and patronymics when referring to one another. Here's a list of the nicknames I've actually seen NAOTMAA use themselves in writing to each other:

Nikolai: Nicky (used often by Alix)
Alexandra: Alix, Sunny (both used often by Nikolai) Mamashka (used once in a letter from Aleksei)
Olga: Olen'ka (used in letters from Alix when Olga was a small child)
Tatiana: none
Maria: Masha, Mashka (both used by Maria & her sisters) Mashen'ka (used once in a letter from Alix)
Anastasia: Nastasia, Nastas'ka (both used by Anastasia herself) Shvybzik, Shvybz (both used by Anastasia & her sisters) Malen'kaya (used by Olga Aleksandrovna)
Aleksei: Baby, Little One, Sunbeam, Tiny (used by his parents). Aleksei once told a friend to call him Alyosha when they were alone, Aleksei Nikolaevich when others were present, and Your Highness when his father was nearby.  ;)

In the letters & diaries I've seen, Nicky, Alix, and Sunny are the most used nicknames, by far. I've never seen Olga or Tatiana use nicknames for themselves. There is one letter on the main AP site in which Tatiana refers to Olga as Olya. Maria seems to have used Mashka mostly in letters to her sisters -- to her parents, she signed Maria. Aleksei is often referred to in his parents' letters to each other as Baby, Sunbeam, etc., but when they wrote letters to him, they called him Aleksei.

My sources are (Russian sources in italics):
Tsesarevich, Divnyi Svet, Pered Rasstrelom, The Last Diary of Tsaritsa Alexandra (and the Russian-language edition, which includes 1917), A Lifelong Passion, The Complete Wartime Correspondence, Fall of the Romanovs, and excerpts from Valentina Chebotareva's diary.

Of course, there are lots more sources out there, so if anybody can contradict me, please do! This question fascinates me.  :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Teddy on January 30, 2006, 10:01:52 AM
Floppy for Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovitch
Mister Lily of the Valley, for Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovitsj
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on February 11, 2006, 02:46:00 PM
Quote
Sasha has always been a diminutive of Alexander.

Olga Alexandrovna: Olya
Kseniya Alexandrovna: Ksyusha
Mikhail Alexandrovich: Misha, Floppy
Tatiana Nikolaevna: Tanya


Actually, for Ksenia, she was usually just called Ksenia, and sometimes "Kseniushka". I'm curious, Olga, where you came up with Ksyusha. Where did you find that?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 11, 2006, 07:05:48 PM
Quote
Olga was often called 'Olya' by her sisters I think
Tatiana was 'Tatia'
Maria was 'Mashka' or 'Marie'...and even sometimes 'Littlie Bow Wow' (her sisters made this one up, I'm sure)
Anastasia was 'Ana'
Alexander III was called 'Sasha' (I think the nickname 'Sasha' was quite popular for men named 'Alexander' during that time)
Marie Fedorovna was 'Minnie'
Friedrich (Alix's brother) was called 'Frittie'

Does anyone know if Nicholas' siblings had nicknames besides his younger brother Alexander IV (Sandro)?



Actually, I don't think that Ana was a nickname for Anastasia.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Svetabel on February 12, 2006, 05:18:55 AM
Quote


Actually, I don't think that Ana was a nickname for Anastasia.


A diminitive of Anastasia is "Nastya" in Russian.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 12, 2006, 10:32:11 AM
Quote

A diminitive of Anastasia is "Nastya" in Russian.


Yep. Also Nasten'ka but I'm not sure if they used that.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on February 12, 2006, 01:03:32 PM
Quote

Yep. Also Nasten'ka but I'm not sure if they used that.

I don't know if they used it for Anastasia Nikolaevna, but I am sure they called Countess Hendrikova Nasten'ka.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 12, 2006, 01:14:01 PM
That's right. I'm pretty sure they didn't use it for Anastasia N because I've never seen it in any letters or anything...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on February 12, 2006, 08:32:59 PM
I thought she signed herself that once or twice, though I may be wrong. Anyway, they may have verbally used many more 'nicknames' than have been left in the written record, as Russian is resplendent in diminutives.

Ksyusha is a common diminutive for Xenia, so she may well have been called that.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on February 13, 2006, 12:26:17 AM
Quote
Anyway, they may have verbally used many more 'nicknames' than have been left in the written record, as Russian is resplendent in diminutives.

I've wondered about that, too, since the children spoke Russian amongst themselves. I wonder how conventional, so to speak, their Russian was. (I know there's been some debate about their English.) While they certainly considered themselves culturally Russian, I don't know how much of a role OTMAA's isolation would have had on their use of their native language. I suppose it's virtually impossible to determine, though!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on February 13, 2006, 01:39:21 AM
I have heard that when Aleksei was in private, he often call Olga, Maria, Tatiana and Anastasia all by the same name. Who would have ever guessed that he called them all by the same name...sister!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 13, 2006, 06:04:29 PM
Really!? Wow...do you know if it was in English or Russian?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on February 13, 2006, 11:15:53 PM
Quote
Anyway, they may have verbally used many more 'nicknames' than have been left in the written record, as Russian is resplendent in diminutives.

Ksyusha is a common diminutive for Xenia, so she may well have been called that.


Cool, I didn't know that, since I've never read it anywhere.  :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on February 13, 2006, 11:29:50 PM
Quote
Really!? Wow...do you know if it was in English or Russian?


You are very bright to ask such a question as the use varied upon the day of the week. On Mondays and Wednesdays, Soeur the French version of the word sister was used; on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays, the English word was used. On Saturdays and Sundays the Russian word Sestra was used. On the very rare ocassions when Aleksei would become angry with one or more of his sisters, he would call them very sternly with the German word Schwester.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: bookworm857158367 on March 06, 2006, 11:56:21 PM
How often did the Romanovs actually call each other by the Russian names? Every Maria in the family seems to have been referred to as Marie in letters or journals. Anastasia was referred to as "Anastasie" in her nanny's memoirs. Kirill was Cyril in his mother's letters; his sister Grand Duchess Elena was called Helen; Princess Irina was called Irene; Nicholas was Nicholas and not Nikolai and Michael was Michael instead of Mikhail. I understand that the European pronounciation of Irene is closer to ee-RAY-nuh than to the American EYE-reen, so that one may just be a difference in spelling.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sainte-Claire1875 on March 07, 2006, 01:08:44 AM
Actually, they addressed each other in person more in Russian--some of the friends may have used the more 'proper' French and English spellings and pronunciations, but within the family they generally called each other by Russian, often pet names:

Michael Alexandrovich was usually referred to by his family and friends as 'Misha', which is a common Russian nickname for Mikhail.

Alexander Mikhailovich (Nicky and Misha's bro-in-law) was called 'Sandro'.

Marie Nikolaevna was often called 'Mashka'.

Alexis Nikolaevich was usually called 'Aleksey' by family (and 'Baby' and 'Sunbeam' by his mother, especially).

and so on...In books when those who knew them referred to them as "Marie" and "Anastasie", they were doing that more out of 'propriety'. Remember these were different times and the French was the most 'proper' language--it was the court language, and everyone in the upper classes knew French so could communicate with a common language, no matter if they were Russian, English, German, Danish, etc... :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sophia_Skymind on March 12, 2006, 08:15:32 PM
Yeah...I think that French for the royal families of the time was what English is for us people who talk in the forums. An international language everybody can understand.

I wonder why it was French, tough, because France at the time wasn't such a powerful country in the whole. It was more Great-Britain, no. The Empire on which the sun never set. Not that I mind that they spoke French: I do too!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Prince_Lieven on March 13, 2006, 11:25:51 AM
I'm no expert here but I think it was French because the Russian court had always been influenced by the French, since the time of Empress Elizabeth. I think either she or Catherine II made French the official court language.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: imperial angel on April 12, 2006, 12:13:51 PM
I think there may have been a topic like this before, so if there has been, direct me to that thread. I would like to know the name days of Nicholas, Alexandra, and their children, and other Romanovs if people so wish. I have read that name days were more important than birthdays-is this true? Again, direct me to any relevant threads.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Azarias on April 12, 2006, 01:17:06 PM
In the Orthodox mind a persons name day would be more important than their individual birthday. They celebrate the feast of the saint whose name they have - as a mini reflection (hopefully) of the positive qualities that come with the name through the saint. When a person dies, the death date becomes a day to remember them. This is the day on which they were reborn to higher life.

With some names it may be clear which saint is honored. With others there may be multiple saints with the same name so we may not be sure which day they honor. One example would be Maria. There are several feast days associated with Theotokos.

When a person celebrates their name day they should be giving gifts rather than receiving them. This is done to honor the saint whose name they have.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: imperial angel on April 12, 2006, 01:22:43 PM
Thanks for the info! It's very helpful, and is there anyway to know which nameday would have been celebrated by a particular individual, someone who had seversal name days, that is? I hadn't realized that there could be different dates that you could celebrate as namedays.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Azarias on April 12, 2006, 01:45:59 PM
We could guess at which date they celebrated, when there are multiple choices, based on common practice. The most sure thing would be to have direct knowledge of the individual's preferences.

Some would say that in the case of a common name like John for example, that all Johns go back to the first John - the Baptist. This can be true but the person may have been named after another John.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on April 12, 2006, 10:58:58 PM
Having seen a 'family' icon, with the Imperial Family's patron Saints on it, the Saint's of the Imperial Family are: St Nicholas the Wonderworker, The Empress St Alexandra wife of Diocletian, St Alexei of Moscow, St Olga Equal to the Apostles, St Tatiana of Rome, St Mary Magdalene, and St Anastasia of Rome. I don't have a diary with me, so can't give dates off hand.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Azarias on April 13, 2006, 11:48:30 AM
Quote
Having seen a 'family' icon, with the Imperial Family's patron Saints on it, the Saint's of the Imperial Family are: St Nicholas the Wonderworker, The Empress St Alexandra wife of Diocletian, St Alexei of Moscow, St Olga Equal to the Apostles, St Tatiana of Rome, St Mary Magdalene, and St Anastasia of Rome. I don't have a diary with me, so can't give dates off hand.


Thank you Georgiy for that information. I was not familiar with that icon. If that is the case then the name day feasts would be:

Nicholas the Wonderworker                   December 6
Alexandra, wife of Diocletian                  April 21
Alexei of Moscow                                  May 20
Olga, Equal to the Apostles                   July 11
Tatiana of Rome                                  January 12
Mary Magdalene                                   July 22
Anastasia of Rome                               December 22

Please note: The Russian Orthodox use the Julian Calendar which at present time is 13 days behind the civil calendar. (Gregorian)
(example: today is April 13 [Gregorian] = March 31 [Julian])
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on June 18, 2006, 09:20:39 AM
Hi - I haven't been successfull finding this information on this site, but I am sure it must be here!  I'm updating my genealogy with the military units that Alexandra and OTMA belonged to.  Much of this is available for the first time (to me anyway) in Greg King's new book.

On page 135 he says in effect that when OTMA turned 14 "on their name day" they were made honorary Col in Chief of various regiments.  A couple of questions:

1)Does anyone know the month/day of OTMA and Alexi's name day?

2)What exactly are "Name Days" - is it a form of what we call a birthday?

3)Since I'm updating military information of various members of the imperial family - does anyone know an available source of information on this topic for the broader family?

As always, many thanks-

dca

ps. on Dimitri's Macedonsky's site  http://macedonsky.narod.ru/english.html he does list many of the name days of the later Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: pookiepie on June 19, 2006, 12:09:43 AM
Your namesday is the day of the saint you were named after. Iit is the day of their death. so anyone named after NAOTMAA would have a namesday on July 17th. but most people don't name their kids after a saint, they just give them a name they like but it has to be christian (for baptisimal purposes). if there is more than one saint with your name, most people just pick the saint whose day is closest to their birthday. it's not a form of a birthday. in orthodoxy, your namesday is much more important than your birthday. sorry i can't help more.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Mie on June 21, 2006, 04:54:00 AM
I remember something like there were MANY namesday... Anastasia could have many name day 'couse of many saints.. So how they spend their nameday then?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP@asia.com on June 21, 2006, 07:17:01 AM
Dear Mie,

Regarding names of the Russian Orthodox Church, let us just take the well-known date of July 18, 2008 New Style as an example:

5 [ch1080][ch1102][ch1083][ch1103]
[ch1087][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1088][ch1086][ch1084][ch1091] [ch1089][ch1090][ch1080][ch1083][ch1102]
18 [ch1080][ch1102][ch1083][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1085][ch1086][ch1074][ch1086][ch1084][ch1091] [ch1089][ch1090][ch1080][ch1083][ch1102]
[ch1087][ch1086][ch1085][ch1077][ch1076][ch1077][ch1083][ch1100][ch1085][ch1080][ch1082]

  
      [ch1057][ch1077][ch1076][ch1084][ch1080][ch1094][ch1072] 5-[ch1103] [ch1087][ch1086] [ch1055][ch1103][ch1090][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1089][ch1103][ch1090][ch1085][ch1080][ch1094][ch1077]. [ch1055][ch1088][ch1087]. [ch1040][ch1092][ch1072][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1103] [ch1040][ch1092][ch1086][ch1085][ch1089][ch1082][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] (1000). [ch1054][ch1073][ch1088][ch1077][ch1090][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1077] [ch1095][ch1077][ch1089][ch1090][ch1085][ch1099][ch1093] [ch1084][ch1086][ch1097][ch1077][ch1081] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1087]. [ch1057][ch1077][ch1088][ch1075][ch1080][ch1103], [ch1080][ch1075][ch1091][ch1084][ch1077][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1056][ch1072][ch1076][ch1086][ch1085][ch1077][ch1078][ch1089][ch1082][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] (1422). [ch1055][ch1088][ch1084][ch1094][ch1094]. [ch1074][ch1077][ch1083]. [ch1082][ch1085]. [ch1045][ch1083][ch1080][ch1089][ch1072][ch1074][ch1077][ch1090][ch1099] [ch1080] [ch1080][ch1085][ch1086][ch1082][ch1080][ch1085][ch1080] [ch1042][ch1072][ch1088][ch1074][ch1072][ch1088][ch1099] (1918).
      [ch1052][ch1094][ch1094]. [ch1040][ch1085][ch1085][ch1099] [ch1080] [ch1050][ch1080][ch1088][ch1080][ch1083][ch1083][ch1099] (304). [ch1055][ch1088][ch1087]. [ch1051][ch1072][ch1084][ch1087][ch1072][ch1076][ch1072] [ch1048][ch1088][ch1080][ch1085][ch1086][ch1087][ch1086][ch1083][ch1100][ch1089][ch1082][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] (X).
      [ch1048][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1099] [ch1041][ch1086][ch1078][ch1080][ch1077][ch1081] [ch1052][ch1072][ch1090][ch1077][ch1088][ch1080], [ch1080][ch1084][ch1077][ch1085][ch1091][ch1077][ch1084][ch1086][ch1081] "[ch1069][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1086][ch1084][ch1080][ch1089][ch1089][ch1072]".
 
Here we have one of the name days of St. Sergius.  There is another in the autumn.  Many of the major saints actually may have at least two name days, for various occasion in the Russian Orthodox Church.

One of the posters was quite correct.  A name's day for a Russian Orthodox Christian is far more important than the actual birthday.   For sure there will be a party on the name's day and usually a Russian Orthodox person will go to church either on that day or on the Sunday nearest to the name's day and have confession and receive communion.  Additionally, a moleben to the saint whose name the person carries should be celebrated in church.  The moleben is a particularly beautiful Russian Orthodox Church service for which I know of no equivalent in the Western churches.  The open prayer, which is sung, (O Heavenly King, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth) is unique among prayers of the Orthodox Church in that we can trace its almost verbatim and in toto to the earliest days of Christianity in Antioch, even before Greece.

Additionally, a person is usually named for a saint, as another poster mentioned, closest to the day on which he or she was born.  HOWEVER, should there have been a death in the family within 30-60 preceding the birth, then the child may receive the name of the deceased.

I believe for a fact that Olga carried the name of the great Russian Princess Olga, for a fact  that Tatiana carried the name of St. Tatiana (this is a very big unofficial holiday, even in Russia today, and the St. Tatiana is indeed a joyous day.  For example, on the St. Tatiana, His Holiness the Patriarch will always visit either a Nursing College, or a Women's University, etc., etc.,) For sure Anastasia carried the name of the Great St. Anastasia; there are Saint Marie's in the Russian Church, and while I am inclined to believe, I am not 100%, that Marie was named after the Blessed Mother.  There have been famous Mariis in Russian Church, and there are feast days for the Fedorovskaya Icon of the Blessed Mother, the Tikvinskaya Icon of the Blessed Mother, etc.  If indeed she carried the name of the Blessed Mother, then she could choose either Christmas as a name's day, Dormition, Annuciation or any of the other feasts of the Blessed Mother.

If you can read Russian, the following site, maintained by the Russian Orthodox Church in Moscow, can provide you with a list of the days and of the saints:

http://212.188.13.168/izdat/

I hope this provides some useful information to you.


With  all of the best,


Alex P.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on June 22, 2006, 10:30:49 PM
Grand Duchess Maria was named for St Mary Magdalene as a 'family icon' showing all the Imperial Family's saints shows.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP@asia.com on June 23, 2006, 09:45:25 PM
Quote
Grand Duchess Maria was named for St Mary Magdalene as a 'family icon' showing all the Imperial Family's saints shows.

GuangZhou, PRC
2006.06.24

Dear Georgiy:

Thank you for your comment.  I have not seen the icon to which you are referring.  Nonetheless, even though all of these saints may be "pochetaiemii", I am not completely convinced that the Empress would have named one of her daughters after Mary Magdalene.  If you consider the other names, Alexei ("chelovek bozhia",  Olga (Orthodoxy to the Slavs), etc., etc. I just cannot fathom why the Empress, who was after all a Victorian woman, and before that a "luteranka" with a good sense of whom Mary Magdalene was, would have chosen such a name.

I am doing more research on the issue and hope that you can provide more solid proof for your assertion.

All the best,


Alex P.


Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: ptitchka on June 23, 2006, 10:19:34 PM
Tsar-Martyr Nicholas was named for St. Nicholas the Wonderworker, and his name day was on December 6/19.  

The Empress was named for that other Empress Alexandra who followed in the train of the Great-Martyr and Wonderworker St. George, and her name day was May 6th.

Our St. Alexei the Tsarevich may have been named after Tsar Alexei Mikhailovich, but the boy's patron saint was St. Alexei the Wonderworker, Metropolitan of Moscow.  His name day was October 5/18.  Some of his name days came when he was sick in bed, but the one he spent at Mogilev was happy, spent with cadets in his 'Youngsters' Regiment' as well as with his family who had come to visit him and his father.

Grand Duchess Olga - St. Olga, Equal to the Apostles.  

Grand Duchess Tatiana - St. Tatiana the Martyr - January 25.

Grand Duchess Maria - St. Mary Magdalene, woman disciple and Myrrh-bearer, out of whom the Saviour cast seven devils - July 22

Grand Duchess Anastasia - St. Anastasia the Deliverer from Potions

Forgive me, the list is not complete...  - p.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 24, 2006, 12:20:26 AM
Quote
Grand Duchess Maria was named for St Mary Magdalene as a 'family icon' showing all the Imperial Family's saints shows.

Dear Georgiy,

I have seen one icon of the family together and two versions of icons solely of the martyred Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna. None of these icons have an allusion to Saint Mary Magdalene whatsoever. Would you please be so kind as to post an image of the icon about which you write, so that we might see what this reference to Saint Mary Magdalene is?

David
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: David_Pritchard on June 24, 2006, 12:45:06 AM
Quote
Grand Duchess Anastasia - St. Anastasia the Deliverer from Potions

There are quite a few saints of the name of Anastasia:

St. Anastasia, martyred in Rome circa the year 65.

St. Anastasia, martyred in Rome circa the year 257.

St. Anastasia, martyred in Palmaria, Italy circa the year 304. Orthodox name day is December 22.

St. Anastasia the Patrician, died in Egypt in the 6th century.

For whom was the Grand Duchess named?

David
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: ptitchka on June 24, 2006, 07:58:32 AM
Quote
Quote
Grand Duchess Anastasia - St. Anastasia the Deliverer from Potions

There are quite a few saints of the name of Anastasia:

St. Anastasia, martyred in Rome circa the year 65.

St. Anastasia, martyred in Rome circa the year 257.

St. Anastasia, martyred in Palmaria, Italy circa the year 304. Orthodox name day is December 22.

St. Anastasia the Patrician, died in Egypt in the 6th century.

For whom was the Grand Duchess named?

David

Dear David -

The Grand Duchess' name day fell on December 22nd.

Forgive me, but I, too, have seen a picture of the icon Georgiy mentions.  This icon is pictured in the <i>Nicholas and Alexandra</i> exhibition book, and its provenance is described there.   Presented to the Emperor and Empress during the Tercentenary of the Dynasty, it is a typical example of an icon of 'Chosen Saints':  all the saints for whom members of a family were named for shown on one icon, or at least an icon of the patron saints of a husband and wife, sometimes given as a wedding or anniversary present.  The reigning Emperors and Empresses of Russia sometimes received such anachronistic sacred images.  Sts. Alexander Nevsky and Mary Magdalene are depicted on an icon presented to Tsar Alexander III and Empress Marie Feodorovna in that same exhibition book.

The 'Chosen Saints' icon is well executed and very charming:  St. Nicholas the Wonderworker and the first St. Empress Alexandra flank a central display, and as if looking from a balcony above them, we can see the patron saints  of the Tsarevich and the Grand Duchesses in a row with St. Metropolitan Alexei in the center.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP@asia.com on June 24, 2006, 08:48:37 AM
GuangZhou, PRC
2006.06.24

Dear All,

Following is more information about the names' days of the Imperial Family from Russian Church sources.  I am still shocked to learn that the Empress Dowager Marie and the Grand Duchess Maria carried the name of Mary Magdalene.  I am going to give this more research.  All dates belong are given according to the "staromy stily".

Tatiana

[ch1046][ch1080][ch1090][ch1080][ch1077]
[ch1057][ch1074]. [ch1084][ch1091][ch1095][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1094][ch1072] [ch1058][ch1072][ch1090][ch1080][ch1072][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1076][ch1077][ch1074][ch1080][ch1094][ch1072] [ch1080] [ch1080][ch1078][ch1077] [ch1089] [ch1085][ch1077][ch1102].
[ch1056][ch1080][ch1084][ch1083][ch1103][ch1085][ch1082][ch1072], [ch1076][ch1080][ch1072][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1080][ch1089][ch1089][ch1072]. [ch1046][ch1077][ch1089][ch1090][ch1086][ch1082][ch1086] [ch1089][ch1090][ch1088][ch1072][ch1076][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072] [ch1079][ch1072] [ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1091] [ch1080] [ch1080][ch1089][ch1087][ch1086][ch1074][ch1077][ch1076][ch1072][ch1085][ch1080][ch1077] [ch1048][ch1080][ch1089][ch1091][ch1089][ch1072] [ch1061][ch1088][ch1080][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1080] [ch1040][ch1083][ch1077][ch1082][ch1089][ch1072][ch1085][ch1076][ch1088][ch1077] [ch1057][ch1077][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1077] [ch1086][ch1090] [ch1088][ch1080][ch1084][ch1089][ch1082][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1075][ch1088][ch1072][ch1076][ch1086][ch1087][ch1088][ch1072][ch1074][ch1080][ch1090][ch1077][ch1083][ch1103] [ch1059][ch1083][ch1100][ch1087][ch1080][ch1072][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1089] [ch1086][ch1090][ch1094][ch1077][ch1084] [ch1089][ch1074][ch1086][ch1080][ch1084], [ch1082][ch1086][ch1090][ch1086][ch1088][ch1099][ch1081] [ch1090][ch1088][ch1080] [ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072] [ch1073][ch1099][ch1083] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1077][ch1092][ch1077][ch1082][ch1090][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1080] [ch1074][ch1087][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1077][ch1076][ch1089][ch1090][ch1074][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1076][ch1080][ch1072][ch1082][ch1086][ch1085][ch1086][ch1084], [ch1074] 225 [ch1075][ch1086][ch1076][ch1091].
[ch1042] [ch1089][ch1083][ch1091][ch1078][ch1073][ch1077] [ch1082][ch1072][ch1085][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1048][ch1075][ch1085][ch1072][ch1090][ch1080][ch1103].

[ch1055][ch1072][ch1084][ch1103][ch1090][ch1100] 12 [ch1103][ch1085][ch1074][ch1072][ch1088][ch1103].

Olga

[ch1062][ch1077][ch1088][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1100] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1096][ch1072][ch1077][ch1090] [ch1077][ch1103] [ch1087][ch1072][ch1084][ch1103][ch1090][ch1100] 11-[ch1075][ch1086] [ch1080][ch1102][ch1083][ch1103]. [ch1042] [ch1055][ch1089][ch1082][ch1086][ch1074][ch1077], [ch1074] [ch1041][ch1083][ch1072][ch1075][ch1086][ch1074][ch1077][ch1097][ch1077][ch1085][ch1089][ch1082][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1073][ch1086][ch1088][ch1077], [ch1091][ch1089][ch1090][ch1088][ch1086][ch1077][ch1085] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1083] [ch1074][ch1086] [ch1080][ch1084][ch1103] [ch1089][ch1074]. [ch1054][ch1083][ch1100][ch1075][ch1080]. [ch1042] [ch1058][ch1088][ch1086][ch1080][ch1094][ch1082][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1073][ch1086][ch1088][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1090][ch1086][ch1080][ch1090] [ch1082][ch1088][ch1077][ch1089][ch1090] [ch1085][ch1072] [ch1090][ch1091][ch1084][ch1073][ch1077], [ch1080][ch1079][ch1074][ch1077][ch1089][ch1090][ch1085][ch1099][ch1081] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076] [ch1080][ch1084][ch1077][ch1085][ch1077][ch1084] [ch1082][ch1088][ch1077][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072] [ch1089][ch1074]. [ch1054][ch1083][ch1100][ch1075][ch1080].

Anastasia

[ch1046][ch1080][ch1090][ch1080][ch1077]
[ch1057][ch1074][ch1103][ch1090][ch1086][ch1081] [ch1084][ch1091][ch1095][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1094][ch1099] [ch1050][ch1080][ch1088][ch1080][ch1072][ch1085][ch1099], [ch1089][ch1074][ch1103][ch1090][ch1099][ch1093] [ch1040][ch1079][ch1099] [ch1080] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1080] [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1088][ch1077][ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1086][ch1073][ch1085][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1057][ch1072][ch1088][ch1072][ch1087][ch1072][ch1084][ch1086][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1080] [ch1076][ch1088][ch1091][ch1075][ch1080][ch1093].

[ch1055][ch1072][ch1084][ch1103][ch1090][ch1100] 13 [ch1076][ch1077][ch1082][ch1072][ch1073][ch1088][ch1103].

Now as David mentions, the "cpicok" of the Russian Orthodx Church lists no less than SIX Anastasias, all of them of equal importance.  So which one if the Anastasia that corresponded to the Grand Duchess?

Mary Magdalene

If indeed the Grand Duchess carried this name, then :

[ch1055][ch1072][ch1084][ch1103][ch1090][ch1100] 22 [ch1080][ch1102][ch1083][ch1103]. [ch1055][ch1077][ch1088][ch1077][ch1085][ch1077][ch1089][ch1077][ch1085][ch1080][ch1077] [ch1084][ch1086][ch1097][ch1077][ch1081] [ch1077][ch1077] 4 [ch1052][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1080] [ch1074][ch1086][ch1089][ch1087][ch1086][ch1084][ch1080][ch1085][ch1072][ch1085][ch1080][ch1077] [ch1077][ch1097][ch1077] [ch1074] [ch1085][ch1077][ch1076][ch1077][ch1083][ch1102] [ch1052][ch1091][ch1088][ch1086][ch1085][ch1086][ch1089][ch1080][ch1094].

All the best and I hope that we can learn some definitive answers here.

Alex P.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on June 24, 2006, 09:50:02 PM
I am not sure that St Mary Magdalene is an unusual choice - she is after all "Ravno-Apostol" Equal to the Apostles, indeed often called Apostle to the Apostles and one of the Myrrhbearing women. If Empress Alexandra's viewpoints on this Saint were skewed by mediaeval Catholic influence (which still continues of course) then maybe she would hesitate, but there is no reason why an Orthodox believer would not wish to name their child in honour of this Saint. After all, a large number of Orthodox Marias are named for either St Mary Magdalene or St Mary of Egypt.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AlexP@asia.com on June 24, 2006, 10:35:46 PM
GuangZhou, PRC
2006.06.25

Dear Giorgii,

Thank you for your post.

Can you provide a definitive source, a primary source, or an exceptionally reliable secondary source, for your claim that the Grand Duchess Marie was named after Mary Magdalene?

You have referred to an icon which you have seen. Many of us have not seen and perhaps you would be so kind as to post it.

If that is not possible, please provide more substantial that would allow to empiricaly confirm what you are saying.

And please let's refrain from commenting upon the Catholic Church.  All faiths have their good points and their weak points and none, if any, possess the ultimate truth, regardless of what they may say.

Alex P.

Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on June 25, 2006, 12:09:36 AM
The icon I have seen is the one in the book mentioned by another poster. I wish I were able to scan and post it for others here to see. Maybe someone who has the book and is able to scan it would be able to do so. There are two such family icons I have seen in exhibition books - both with images of St Mary Magdalene on them. I guess the next best way to determine which St Mary Maria is named for would be to check through the Tsar's diaries or letters and see what exact day was Maria's name day and then check with an Orthodox calendar.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Azarias on June 25, 2006, 07:07:08 PM
 Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty / The Imperial Family / Re: Name days of Imperial Family
 on: Apr 13th, 2006, 12:48pm  
Quote from Georgiy on Apr 12th, 2006, 11:58pm:
Having seen a 'family' icon, with the Imperial Family's patron Saints on it, the Saint's of the Imperial Family are: St Nicholas the Wonderworker, The Empress St Alexandra wife of Diocletian, St Alexei of Moscow, St Olga Equal to the Apostles, St Tatiana of Rome, St Mary Magdalene, and St Anastasia of Rome. I don't have a diary with me, so can't give dates off hand.
 
 
Thank you Georgiy for that information. I was not familiar with that icon. If that is the case then the name day feasts would be:
 
Nicholas the Wonderworker                   December 6
Alexandra, wife of Diocletian                  April 21
Alexei of Moscow                                  May 20
Olga, Equal to the Apostles                   July 11
Tatiana of Rome                                  January 12
Mary Magdalene                                   July 22
Anastasia of Rome                               December 22
 
Please note: The Russian Orthodox use the Julian Calendar which at present time is 13 days behind the civil calendar. (Gregorian)
(example: today is April 13 [Gregorian] = March 31 [Julian])  
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Isabella on May 29, 2007, 07:22:13 AM
I thought Tatya's name day was the 15th of January, and Nastya's the 25th of December, as I read that was when they were given their regiments.

May just be wrong, of course - probably is.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: RomanovFan on October 15, 2007, 05:28:27 PM
I thought Tatya's name day was the 15th of January, and Nastya's the 25th of December, as I read that was when they were given their regiments.

May just be wrong, of course - probably is.

Well, like Azarias said, the dates are 13 days apart (Julian is 13 days behind the Georgian calendar) your dates are a few days off, but they're just those of the Georgian calendar, not the Julian; and the Julian calendar is what the Russian Imperial family went by, unless they weren't born into it like Aleksandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse) who used both dates in her diaries.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: albert on October 26, 2007, 11:32:02 AM
Iknow tat Russian uses also very short name
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LINDACONNER45 on July 14, 2008, 07:05:25 AM
Someone posted about this back in 2005 but it never got answered.  I have often wondered why so many women who were born outside Russia, when they moved to Russia and were converted to Orthodoxy and married Russians, took "FEODROVNA" as a patronymic - Of course the Empress Alexandra did so  (from Princess Alix Viktoria Helene Louise Beatrice of Hesse to Grand Duchess Alexandra Feodorovna) but also empress Marie who was Marie Sophie Frederikke Dagmar (known as Dagmar)  of Denmark took "Feodorovna".  Marie Feodorovna's father's name was Christian.  Of course the father of Alexandra Feodorovna was Louis - and Alexandra's sister, Elizabeth Alexandra Louise (known as Ella) who married Grand Duke Serge ALSO took "Feodorovna" as her patronymic.  The Empress who was wife to Nicholas I,born Frederica Louise Charlotte Wihelmina, took Alexandra Feodorovna as her Russian name and HER father's name was Frederick William.

In fact about the only foreign born princess I can think of who did NOT get "Feodorova" was Catherine the Great; earlier in this thread, someone said her patronymic, Alexeevna, was in honor of  Tsar Alexis---

I am not sure who chose these womens' Russian names and patronyms; was it the current reigning Empress or Emperor?  Or the Church when they were confirmed in Orthodoxy?   Or the woman herself?   Or did everyone have a say?

But why "Feodorovna"?  None of the above women had a father called "Feodor'  (Theodore).

I know that Feodor is a saint, and that there was a famous icon called the "Feodor Mother of God" much venerated in Russia, but I still wonder if there is a solid, known, reason why this patronymic was used--------------   
 
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: nena on July 14, 2008, 08:21:12 AM
LINDACONNER45, 'Feodorovna' because there was Feodorovsky Sabor---like a Church where Russian Empresses were renamed their names.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 14, 2008, 03:42:09 PM
Someone posted about this back in 2005 but it never got answered.  I have often wondered why so many women who were born outside Russia, when they moved to Russia and were converted to Orthodoxy and married Russians, took "FEODROVNA" as a patronymic - Of course the Empress Alexandra did so  (from Princess Alix Viktoria Helene Louise Beatrice of Hesse to Grand Duchess Alexandra Feodorovna) but also empress Marie who was Marie Sophie Frederikke Dagmar (known as Dagmar)  of Denmark took "Feodorovna".  Marie Feodorovna's father's name was Christian.  Of course the father of Alexandra Feodorovna was Louis - and Alexandra's sister, Elizabeth Alexandra Louise (known as Ella) who married Grand Duke Serge ALSO took "Feodorovna" as her patronymic.  The Empress who was wife to Nicholas I,born Frederica Louise Charlotte Wihelmina, took Alexandra Feodorovna as her Russian name and HER father's name was Frederick William.

In fact about the only foreign born princess I can think of who did NOT get "Feodorova" was Catherine the Great; earlier in this thread, someone said her patronymic, Alexeevna, was in honor of  Tsar Alexis---

I am not sure who chose these womens' Russian names and patronyms; was it the current reigning Empress or Emperor?  Or the Church when they were confirmed in Orthodoxy?   Or the woman herself?   Or did everyone have a say?

But why "Feodorovna"?  None of the above women had a father called "Feodor'  (Theodore).

I know that Feodor is a saint, and that there was a famous icon called the "Feodor Mother of God" much venerated in Russia, but I still wonder if there is a solid, known, reason why this patronymic was used--------------   
 

I think this is discussed elsewhere in the Forum, so feel free to do a search.

In brief, the Feodorovskya Icon was used by his mother to bless the young Mikhail Feodorovich in 1613 prior to his leaving the Ipatiev Monastery in Kostroma to accept the throne. Thus, the icon is considered to be the patroness of the dynasty, and so the Feodorovsky Cathedral was named after the icon, and many of the foreign brides who married into the dynasty were given this name as a patronymic.

As to how these selections were made, in Imperial Russia, everything of this import had to be approved by the sovereign.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Selencia on January 28, 2009, 05:46:14 PM
To those who are in the know I am a little confused about the last names of the family. I know officially it was Romanov but why are the children sometimes referred to as Nikolaevna and Feodorovna; are those just mutiple last names they had or some form of middle name?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: amartin71718 on January 28, 2009, 06:16:59 PM
Nikolaievna and Feodorovna are patronymics. Nikolaievna means 'daughter of Nicholas' and Feodorovna means 'daughter of Feodor' or something like that. So basically, (for example) Olga Nikolaievna Romanova means Olga 'daughter of Nicholas' Romanov.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 29, 2009, 03:25:03 AM
Well, actually, I believe that in Russia everyone has a name that is based on the name of their father, for example if the father's name is Nicolas, the children are going to have a name that means (as Marty_1994 said) "daughter of Nicolas"(Nikolaievna) or "son of Nicolas" (Nikolaievich). But of course, the children will always have the official last name - for example Romanov. So, if you're confused by this explanation, the names of the children were Olga Nikolaievna Romanova, Tatiana Nikolaievna Romanova, Maria Nikolaievna Romanova, Anastasia Nikolaievna Romanova and Alexei Nikolaievich Romanov (as you probably know, the girls' last names get an "a", that's in force for all girls in Russia). And 'cause in Russia it's more "popular" to mention only the first and the "daughter/son" name of the person you're talking about, the Grand Duchesses are sometimes addressed as Olga Nikolaievna, Tatiana Nikolaievna etc. Hope you can understand this, 'cause I don't think I explained it very clear...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on January 29, 2009, 03:46:04 AM
That's just typical for Russian to use patronymics. That's what makes them unique from other people's names.
I even love to have one.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 29, 2009, 04:41:45 AM
That's just typical for Russian to use patronymics. That's what makes them unique from other people's names.
I even love to have one.

Hehe, I have one... although the patronymics in Bulgaria are a bit different than the ones in Russia.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on January 29, 2009, 04:48:22 AM
How is it different, Tina?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 29, 2009, 04:56:01 AM
How is it different, Tina?

Well, my father's name is Pavel. If I & my brother were born in Russia, our patronymics would have been Pavlovna and Pavlovich. But in Bulgaria, our patronymics are Pavlova (for me) and Pavlov (for my brother). So, you see, there is difference... :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: nena on January 29, 2009, 09:22:52 AM
Also, Fyodorovna is because of icon Feodor's mother, in front of first Romanov was coronated/crowned. Tradition, but Tina and Marty_1994 are right about father - decedents line.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on January 29, 2009, 09:35:57 AM


Well, my father's name is Pavel. If I & my brother were born in Russia, our patronymics would have been Pavlovna and Pavlovich. But in Bulgaria, our patronymics are Pavlova (for me) and Pavlov (for my brother). So, you see, there is difference... :)

So, that's how it is...Thank you for that understandable explanation, Tina.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 29, 2009, 09:46:06 AM


Well, my father's name is Pavel. If I & my brother were born in Russia, our patronymics would have been Pavlovna and Pavlovich. But in Bulgaria, our patronymics are Pavlova (for me) and Pavlov (for my brother). So, you see, there is difference... :)

So, that's how it is...Thank you for that understandable explanation, Tina.

You're welcome. I'm happy you understood it, 'cause sometimes I write really confusing explanations. :-[
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on January 29, 2009, 10:25:08 AM
Me, too. It's just because English is not our native tongue. Nobody's perfect . (",)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Forum Admin on January 29, 2009, 10:33:14 AM
The Imperial Family actually did NOT have "last names".  While the Dynasty was the Romanov Dynasty, once Mikhail Romanov became Tsar he and his descendants ceased to have a family name of Romanov.

Nicholas II was simply Nicholas Alexandrovich. His eldest daughter simply "Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna" etc... When Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich left Russia, he actually had no last name and so he chose "Ilinsky" after his family estate "Ilinskoe".  After the Revolution, as an insult, the Bolsheviks referred to Nicholas as "Citizen Romanov"...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on January 29, 2009, 10:40:35 AM
Wow.New thing for us, Sir. Why is that so?
I also notice Princes William and Harry use Wales as surname, not Windsor. Is it another story or the same?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 29, 2009, 12:10:37 PM
The Imperial Family actually did NOT have "last names".  While the Dynasty was the Romanov Dynasty, once Mikhail Romanov became Tsar he and his descendants ceased to have a family name of Romanov.

Nicholas II was simply Nicholas Alexandrovich. His eldest daughter simply "Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna" etc... When Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich left Russia, he actually had no last name and so he chose "Ilinsky" after his family estate "Ilinskoe".  After the Revolution, as an insult, the Bolsheviks referred to Nicholas as "Citizen Romanov"...

Oh, I see... didn't know that. Thanks for leading me out of the darkness :D Although, I was right about the patronymics...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Selencia on January 29, 2009, 02:02:59 PM
Thank You everyone who helped in explaining the name situation. The whole "no last name" scenario kind of makes sense because I was reading Massie's "THe Romanovs:The Final Chapter" and he was discussing the Mikailovichi and the Vladimirovichi...I actually had heard the name Nicholaievna before and I thought it would be a good baby name for either a girl or a boy. But now that I am more educated it seems like there would be 2 problems with naming a boy that...one he is not the daughter of a Nicholas and two he is not a daughter. I think I have to give up on the baby Nicholaievna dream.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: nena on January 29, 2009, 02:08:39 PM
Nicholaievna -- a female patronymics. NII's daughters.
Nicholaievich -- a male patronymics. Aleksei.

Mikhailovichi and Vladimirovichi are plural, which means the whole Mikhailovich/Vladimirovich family, a family lines from Nicholas I. Also, for female members Romanova is correct surname.

Welcome at AP, Selencia.  ;)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Forum Admin on January 29, 2009, 02:28:25 PM
Wow.New thing for us, Sir. Why is that so?
I also notice Princes William and Harry use Wales as surname, not Windsor. Is it another story or the same?

That is the same as with the Romanov dynasty.  Notice they only use "Wales" for their military service and University enrollment, where a "surname" would be required. Technically they have no last names.  They are His Royal Highness Prince William Arthur Philip Louis of Wales and His Royal Highness Prince Henry Charles Albert David of Wales. Their father is HRH Prince Charles of Wales. Their Grandother is Queen Elizabeth II...etc,
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on January 29, 2009, 11:49:36 PM
Thank you, Sir. Mountbatten-Windsor is only a name for their dynasty, not a surname (now I know).
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Valmont on January 30, 2009, 10:34:57 AM
If I'm not mistaken Prince Philip comes from the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluksburg but adopted the Mountbatten last name (which originally was Battenberg). So their last name should be Mountbatten, but I believe it was Churchill's idea to adopt the Windsor surname in the best interest of the British monarchy... but that is subject for the Windsor thread...

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on January 30, 2009, 02:41:18 PM
If I'm not mistaken Prince Philip comes from the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluksburg but adopted the Mountbatten last name (which originally was Battenberg). So their last name should be Mountbatten, but I believe it was Churchill's idea to adopt the Windsor surname in the best interest of the British monarchy... but that is subject for the Windsor thread...

Arturo Vega-Llausás

You're correct about it, Valmont.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: rkonnoff on April 29, 2009, 08:11:57 PM
These names are mainly called by family, or close friends. Some nicknames can be insulting if you do not know the person. Example, Misha is common, but if you called a person Miska then they can take it as insult.Olga was often called 'Olya' by her sisters I think
Tatiana was 'Tatia' or 'Tanya'
Maria was 'Mashka', "Masha" or 'Marie'...and even sometimes 'Littlie Bow Wow' (her sisters made this one up, I'm sure)  - Masha is more common, Mashka used generally among family
Anastasia was 'Nastya' or "Shvizvik" (spelling?) Shvizik - its like saying joker
Alexander III was called 'Sasha' (This nickname was/is also used as a nickname for Alexandra) Shura is more common for female, Sasha is generally for males

Nicholas' siblings:

Alexander = Can be either "Sandro" or "Sasha"
George= "Georgy" or "Goggie"
Xenia= "Malenkaya" perhaps by MF.
Michael= "Misha"
Olga = "Olya" or "Olishka" perhaps.


[/quote]
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 02, 2009, 04:31:51 PM
Anastasia was 'Nastya' or "Shvizvik" (spelling?) Shvizik - its like saying joker

It's Shvibzik - it means 'imp' in Russian. : )
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on May 02, 2009, 05:25:19 PM
[/i]Olga was often called 'Olya' by her sisters I think
Tatiana was 'Tatia' or 'Tanya'

It's possible that they may have used these nicknames when speaking to each other, but I've never seen any written evidence that the Big Pair went by Olya, Tatia, or Tanya. In the IF's own letters and diaries they either used Olga and Tatiana's full names or their initials. However, there are a very few letters by Alexandra from 1909 and 1910 which are addressed to "Olenka" and "Tatianochka."
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on May 08, 2009, 05:16:31 AM
I have one question about the names of the imperial family, maybe one can help me :)
I would like to know, if there is any must or strategy to name the children of the imperial family...because there are so many reprises of names like "Alexander" or "Nikolaus" or "Olga" or "Maria". There are so many names in russia which never had been used in society. did it depends on upper and lower class. Was the IF not allowed to use "proletarian" names?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 08, 2009, 05:33:49 AM
I think it was mostly a matter of tradition - and liking. For example quite common Russia name Tatiana had never been used within Imperial family before Grand Duke Konstantin and Tsar Nikolai named their daughters like that.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on May 08, 2009, 05:42:51 AM
For me I would have give my child a unique name which is  not already given to ten of its cousins :)
Tsar Alexei had a daughter named Tatiana, the sister of Tsarevna Sofia...but she was not a matter of history :(
In  earlier romanov times the had "old" orthodox names like praskovia, eudoxia etc.
I think its a little pity that they where so traditionally and not creativ in giving names.   :-\
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 09, 2009, 07:55:21 AM
I think it was mostly a matter of tradition - and liking.

I'd also guess that there were some names that were traditionally used in the IF - maybe it was usually about liking the names too. But I don't really think that there was something like 'upper and lower class' about the names.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on May 11, 2009, 12:45:10 AM
There are many (but actually few, IMO) names provided by the Russian Orthodox church but only a few were used on the IF. I also wonder why they don’t use multiple names. Maybe it was a tradition, too.


Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: violetta on May 11, 2009, 02:39:49 AM
There were three tzars named Alexander in the 19th centur plus one Nikolay that is why Nikolay II told his mother that it was time to "break this endless row of Niklays and Alexanders". Before the birth of their first child N & A planned that they would name their daughter Olga and their son Pavel. But when their son was finally born they gave up the name Pavel due to the assosiations with Pavel I and his tragic end. The Tzar chose the name Alexey because Aleksey Mikhailovich was Nikolay`s favorite monarch. in 1903 he even organized a fancy ball in the winter palace where all the participants were dresses in the clothes from those times. Nikolay liked his monarch for his mildness and deep religiousness







Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 11, 2009, 07:41:30 AM
There are many (but actually few, IMO) names provided by the Russian Orthodox church but only a few were used on the IF. I also wonder why they don’t use multiple names. Maybe it was a tradition, too.




Hm, what exactly do you mean by multiple names? :-\ Like people who have two first names like (for example) "Veronica Gabriella" and then the family name?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on May 11, 2009, 10:25:48 PM
I believe that "Shvibsik" comes from a Russified pronunciation of the German word for "crazy". I am fairly certain it is not a Russian word.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on May 11, 2009, 10:30:45 PM
If by "multiple names" you mean like in English and other languages, the answer is simple. In Russian one is given a first name (the name of the person's Patron Saint), then an otchestvo (patronym - i.e. Son/Daughter of -) and finally the family name.
As for names to choose from, like any culture names go through fashions. Up until the revolution most Russians would be named for a Saint of the Orthodox Church - there are 1000s of names available, but some have connotations like, for example Xenophont sounds like a Monastic name.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on May 12, 2009, 01:58:45 AM
Then why is that many biographers of OTMA say Shvibzik is a Russian word? Thanks for the information, Georgiy.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 12, 2009, 07:15:32 AM
I believe that "Shvibsik" comes from a Russified pronunciation of the German word for "crazy". I am fairly certain it is not a Russian word.

I think the German word for crazy (as far as I know) doesn't have a lot in common with Shvibzik - however I could ask my German teacher. Maybe not exactly the word for crazy, but for something similar? :-\ Personally, I can't think of anything right now - but I'm sure it'll be cleared out. Btw, I just checked my English-Russian dictionary - for some funny reason the word "imp" wasn't in it. : (
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on May 12, 2009, 10:20:53 PM
Schwips meaning "tipsy" in German perhaps...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 13, 2009, 08:20:29 AM
Yes, 'schwips' does mean 'tipsy' in German - if I understood 'tipsy' correctly, of course. Do you think it could be what Shvibzik comes from?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on May 13, 2009, 08:34:52 AM
In Olga Alexandrovna's memoirs, Anastasia's nickname is spelled "Shvipsik." I've also seen a shortened version spelled "Schwibs," if that offers any clues to the word's origin...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 13, 2009, 08:51:21 AM
In Olga Alexandrovna's memoirs, Anastasia's nickname is spelled "Shvipsik." I've also seen a shortened version spelled "Schwibs," if that offers any clues to the word's origin...

Oh, I see. I will use Shvipsik from now on : ) - but I really have no clue what "Schwibs" could mean; I'll be sure to ask my German teacher tomorrow if there's such a word.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on May 13, 2009, 09:33:31 AM
Oh, I see. I will use Shvipsik from now on : ) - but I really have no clue what "Schwibs" could mean; I'll be sure to ask my German teacher tomorrow if there's such a word.

I think "Shvipsik" is just a variation in transliteration. Anastasia herself spelled it Швыбзик in her wartime letters to Nicholas, which transliterates literally to "Shvybzik."

"Schwibs" is likewise probably a variation of the shortened version, Швыбз/Shvybz, which Olga Nikolaevna used in her letters and diaries.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Georgiy on May 13, 2009, 10:14:15 PM
At any rate, it isn't the Russian word for imp, impish or playful or anything like that - not even Russian as far as I know. Didn't Anastasia have a dog called Shvibzig first of all? Then she started getting called that name? Maybe the dog's behaviour was a bit 'tipsy' and maybe Anastasia's behaviour similar and so the name stuck? Getting very speculative though.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on May 14, 2009, 08:07:00 AM
No, I know the constellation of the names:)  ;) I meant names like Anisja, Tamara, Galina, Arkadi, Lidija, Jefim, Lawrentij and so on (not the prettiest names, I know  ;) ) I didn't find such names in the IF or the "upper class" (never or not as often as Olga, Maria etc). Why there are no grandduchesses or princes with such names? Thats, what I don't understand.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 14, 2009, 12:23:48 PM
I can only repeat: tradition, fashion and personal taste. You can hardly ask my parents why they named my brother Jan....
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 14, 2009, 12:34:32 PM
I can only repeat: tradition, fashion and personal taste. You can hardly ask my parents why they named my brother Jan....

LOL That's probably off-topic, but my cousin's name is Jan. :D And yes, I guess it was probably matter of tradition and personal taste. One of my best friends is called Tamara - Russian name - but she hasn't got any Russians in the family...
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Olga Maria on August 15, 2009, 05:21:58 AM
Does Alexandra call Maria “Mashenka”?

I got this from a Russian biography of Maria which I translated using Google Translator. This is the very famous letter of Alexandra to Maria so don’t mind the grammar that Google translator made.
"My dear Машенька.
Your letter I am very saddened. A pretty child, you must promise me never to stop to think that nobody loves you. As in your head has such an unusual idea? Quickly run it from there. We are all very dearly love you; and only when you are too rasshalishsya, raskapriznichaeshsya and do not listen, you scold, berate but does not mean not to love. On the contrary, it is done so that you can correct your weaknesses and become better, you are usually kept away from others, think that you disturb them, and remains one of Trinh, instead of being with them. They imagine that you do not want them to be. Now you become a big girl and you better should be more with nimi. Nu, I do not think more about it and remember that you are exactly the same way we, as the remaining four, and that we love you with all my heart. It is you loving old mother. "

I can’t read Russian that’s why I will not be able to put the exact Russian text but here’s the link: http://www.st-nikolas.orthodoxy.ru/biblio/tzar/pedagogy/glava9_4.html
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: nena on August 15, 2009, 06:04:53 PM
Does Alexandra call Maria “Mashenka”?

It seems she did, looking at that letter.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Ally Kumari on August 22, 2009, 06:31:22 AM
Since Mashenka is a very commonly used nickname for Marias in Russian I would say "definitely" :)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: nena on August 22, 2009, 12:23:20 PM
Indeed, diminutives are very common in using in Russia.  :-) (for example, Olenka, Alyosha, Mashenka..)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: cebi26 on November 05, 2009, 12:01:52 PM
When the IF was in captivity, how were they called by the guards? name and patronymic, maybe?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: nena on November 05, 2009, 12:10:12 PM
'Citizen Romanov', nicknames 'Nikolasha', 'Former...Grand Duchess', and that is. Rudely.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Countess Adrienn Bellér on February 08, 2010, 03:27:09 PM
I wonder, why didn't they have long long name, like their anchestors...Just a simple name,not f.e: Maria Anna Lena Beatice ...

Is this just an European tradition? Or why didn't they get more names?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Ally Kumari on February 08, 2010, 03:39:23 PM
Because they were Rusian orthodox. In Russian orthodo church it is tradition to have first name and patronymic name. Their ancestors did have long names - but only ancestors outside Russia.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Countess Adrienn Bellér on February 08, 2010, 04:27:44 PM
Thank you I didt know it ^^
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 18, 2010, 12:04:17 PM
Because they were Rusian orthodox. In Russian orthodo church it is tradition to have first name and patronymic name. Their ancestors did have long names - but only ancestors outside Russia.

Yes. The Grand Duchesses had only the first name, the middle was their father name plus "evna", and the last name. It was the tradition.
In other countries we can see long names. Alix, for example, was Victoria Alix Helena Louise Beatrice of Hesse and by Rhine. In Brazil, Princess Izabel's name was Isabel Cristina Leopoldina Augusta Micaela Gabriela Rafaela Gonzaga de Bragança. She was daughter to the Emperor Dom Pedro II.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: TimM on July 18, 2010, 04:17:33 PM
Quote
Princess Izabel's name was Isabel Cristina Leopoldina Augusta Micaela Gabriela Rafaela Gonzaga de Bragança

Say that ten times fast!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: rosieposie on July 18, 2010, 06:40:24 PM
I would be so tongue tied with that name lol.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 18, 2010, 06:43:24 PM
Quote
Princess Izabel's name was Isabel Cristina Leopoldina Augusta Micaela Gabriela Rafaela Gonzaga de Bragança

Say that ten times fast!

{*laughing*}

Her father was Pedro de Alcântar João Carlos Salvador Bibiano Francisco Xavier de Paula Leocádio Miguel Gabriel Rafael Gonzaga. Try to say this ten times fast!

Anyway, I'm happy the Grand Duchesses didn't have long names, it's much easier!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on July 18, 2010, 07:18:56 PM
Yikes! Those names are very long! Pedro etc. has 14 names in all !!  :o
Poor guy... at least his daughter's name is relatively easy to pronounce, whereas his! Phew, all those accents! When did they live, by the way?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 18, 2010, 07:37:01 PM
Yikes! Those names are very long! Pedro etc. has 14 names in all !!  :o
Poor guy... at least his daughter's name is relatively easy to pronounce, whereas his! Phew, all those accents! When did they live, by the way?

Emperor Dom Pedro II ruled Brazil between 1831 and 1899. He belonged to the House of Bragança, and was the last Emperor of Brazil. Actually he was only the second one, the first one was his father, Pedro I ( Pedro de Alcântara Francisco António João Carlos Xavier de Paula Miguel Rafael Joaquim José Gonzaga Pascoal Cipriano Serafim de Bragança e Bourbon ). Before him, Brazil belonged to Portugal, and after Pedro II, it became a Republic.

Don't you love your own names now? And don't you think Alix's name was very small for comparison?  ;D
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: TimM on July 18, 2010, 09:26:49 PM
Having a name like that could kill you.  If a rock was falling towards him, by the time you said "Look out Pedro de Alcântar João Carlos Salvador Bibiano Francisco Xavier de Paula Leocádio Miguel Gabriel Rafael Gonzaga."  he'd be squished!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 19, 2010, 10:03:36 AM
Having a name like that could kill you.  If a rock was falling towards him, by the time you said "Look out Pedro de Alcântar João Carlos Salvador Bibiano Francisco Xavier de Paula Leocádio Miguel Gabriel Rafael Gonzaga."  he'd be squished!

{*laughing*}

That's Brazil's royality!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on July 19, 2010, 03:32:59 PM
I guess they probably called him Pedro, and his daughter Isabel.

Yikes, I just counted Pedro I's names, and he has 18! Not counting the 'de's. Counting that he has 21 names!  What could his parents have been thinking?!

I would think that if Pedro I had 20 names, he would have named his son less, even less than 14. I wonder if they liked having such long names. Probably not. 
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 19, 2010, 09:55:45 PM
In Brazil, long names meant you're wealthy. And you're right, GrandDuchessAndrea, they were called "Dom Pedro", or "Infanta Isabel" (Infanta = Princess in Portugal or Spain).

Today we laugh a lot, but back them... the longest your name, the richest you were. I guess that in other countries we can see long names too, like in Spain, but I'm not sure... but I'm missing the point =)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Kalafrana on July 20, 2010, 06:39:55 AM
In Britain the more upper crust tended to have longer and more fanciful names, at any rate until recently.

Here it is usual to give a child two names, less commonly three. Only the seriously upper crust (and not many of those) have four.

I think among upper crust Catholics on the continent it is quite common to have lots of names because of honouring the parents' various favourite saints.

Ann Elizabeth (daughter of Richard Thomas Frederick and the late Muriel Elizabeth, and sister of Andrew Thomas Richard)
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 20, 2010, 08:33:08 AM
In Britain the more upper crust tended to have longer and more fanciful names, at any rate until recently.

Here it is usual to give a child two names, less commonly three. Only the seriously upper crust (and not many of those) have four.

I think among upper crust Catholics on the continent it is quite common to have lots of names because of honouring the parents' various favourite saints.

Ann Elizabeth (daughter of Richard Thomas Frederick and the late Muriel Elizabeth, and sister of Andrew Thomas Richard)



I agree about naming the parents' various favorite saints part! Actually not only saints, but also relatives.
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Kalafrana on July 20, 2010, 09:15:41 AM
Naming offspring after relations is very much the norm, whatever the religious denomination (or was until recently). Giving saint's names specifically as saint's names seems to be a more Catholic phenomenon.

Godparents' names come into the picture as well. Princess Marie Louise was christened Franziska Josepha Louise Augusta Marie Christina Helena, mostly after various godparents (Emperor Franz Josef was her godfather).

Ann
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: TimM on July 20, 2010, 03:02:03 PM
Prince Charles is Charles Philip Arthur George. 
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on July 20, 2010, 08:11:37 PM
Now that isn't so bad, comparing it to the poor Pedros!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 20, 2010, 08:13:29 PM
Now that isn't so bad, comparing it to the poor Pedros!

Yes... now the parents think about their childrens' feelings...  :D
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Kalafrana on July 21, 2010, 03:35:16 AM
'Yes... now the parents think about their childrens' feelings... '

Not sure I agree - look at the silly names celebrities give their unfortunate children!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 21, 2010, 08:30:44 AM
Very good one, Kalafrana ;)
I must agree with that
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AnastasiaTheImp on June 21, 2013, 06:51:03 PM
Nicholas' daughters are often referred to as OTMA.
I have seen letters where they have signed their names in age order (that isn't unusual, my siblings and I do that), but is there a letter or card that they signed with the shortened acronym OTMA?
Or is this something "we" (as researchers and fans) have come up with as shorthand?
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: Sarushka on June 21, 2013, 09:21:16 PM
Nicholas' daughters are often referred to as OTMA.
I have seen letters where they have signed their names in age order (that isn't unusual, my siblings and I do that), but is there a letter or card that they signed with the shortened acronym OTMA?
Or is this something "we" (as researchers and fans) have come up with as shorthand?


Gilliard claimed in his memoir, "With the initials of their Christian names they had formed a composite Christian name, Otma, and under this common signature they frequently gave their presents or sent letters written by one of them on behalf of all." However, I've never once come across a photo of such a signature, or seen it used in any of the imperial family's letters or diaries. The closest I've come is a poem by the tutor Petrov, addressed "For O.T.M.A."
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: AnastasiaTheImp on June 21, 2013, 09:41:22 PM
Gilliard claimed in his memoir, "With the initials of their Christian names they had formed a composite Christian name, Otma, and under this common signature they frequently gave their presents or sent letters written by one of them on behalf of all." However, I've never once come across a photo of such a signature, or seen it used in any of the imperial family's letters or diaries. The closest I've come is a poem by the tutor Petrov, addressed "For O.T.M.A."
[/quote]

Good to know! Thanks!
Title: Re: Names, Patronymics, Nicknames and Name Days
Post by: DNAgenie on June 23, 2013, 01:08:33 AM
The possible OTMA signature reminds me of the Club Alix often referred to in letters to her brother Ernst Ludwig. That was the AETA Club, for Alix, Ernst Ludwig, Toni Becker, and Alexander von Frankenburg und Ludwigsdorf. It would seem likely that the four girls got the OTMA idea from their mother.