Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Tudors => Topic started by: Helen_Azar on August 20, 2007, 07:23:38 PM

Title: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 20, 2007, 07:23:38 PM
... in her adulterous behavior with Thomas Culpepper? After all, you would have to have your head examined to do this willingly for the wife of King Henry VIII... knowing that this behavior is high treason for which the punishment is imminent death. Why would she do this? Was she an incurable romantic? Was she really unintelligent (stupid) or simply lost her mind? Or were there other, more compelling reasons? I think several theories exist, but I would like to hear your opinions. 
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Yseult on August 20, 2007, 11:02:39 PM
Helen, do you remember the statement pronounced by Caroline Posonby Lamb about lord George Byron being "bad, mad and dangerous to know"? Well, I dont know if George deserved this words, but Im not doubt Jane Parker Rochford was bad, mad and dangerous to know. A woman who falsely accused her husband of having commited incests with his own sister the queen is not the kind of woman to became lady of chamber of the next two wives of the king.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 21, 2007, 01:54:04 AM
Hi Yseult!

Well she obviously was that kind of woman, as she was lady in waiting to both Anne of Cleves and Katherine Howard. My guess is that she was regarded by Henry (or others) as potentially a good source of info.

in 1541 people must have been already wondering how long Henry would last and I can only see Viscountess Rochford's actions in this light, playing along with the Queen's schemes in case there was some reward, or waiting for a good moment to go running to Henry with the story (not an easy decision). Unfortunately the whole story came out prematurely, before (if we believe the story of Katherine and Culpeper) the affair had turned physical. This was because of the Dereham scandal which concerned goings on before the marriage.

So, I think la Rochford, probably was planning to tak a look at Henry's health at the end of 1542, and if it looked good, would have told him all about Culpeper, and reaped the rewards. Unfortunately she got the timing badly wrong and got caught on the wrong side.

Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Mari on August 21, 2007, 06:07:38 AM
Many Writers consider Jane Boleyn a jealous vindicative Woman. Some mention that She had an unhappy Marriage with Anne Boleyn's Brother and testified to his incestuous relationship with Anne Boleyn for spite. She herself confessed  before her death, "God has permitted me to suffer this shameful doom as punishment for having contributed to my husband's death. I falsely accused him of loving in an incestuous manner, his sister, Queen Anne Boleyn. For this I deserve to die."

And that may be part of it...jealousy/spite...but all of this seems to be about Power and Position at Court. It looks to me that She had gained favor with Katherine Howard should She survive and had an out if She didn't later on. As Bell said "Unfortunately she got the timing badly wrong and got caught on the wrong side."
 
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: dmitri on August 21, 2007, 09:20:19 AM
Well I think the Howard family were very powerful and manipulative. The Duke of Norfolk was quite a piece of work. Certainly if his niece had fallen pregnant and had a son, whether it had been Henry VIII's or not it would have secured things very nicely for the Howard family and also have placed Mary one step further down in the line of succession. Power was everything and any attempt to obtain it was perhaps worth the risk. Certainly the axe finished off most of those foolish enough to presume they could get away with it all.   
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 21, 2007, 06:47:05 PM
Even if Katherine howard had had a girl it would have been ahead of Mary in the succession. There were two reasons why she didn't have any children:

a) Henry was probably by this time impotent

b) She did not commit adultery with Culpeper (though they both admitted that they had planned this).
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on August 21, 2007, 08:39:19 PM
... in her adulterous behavior with Thomas Culpepper? After all, you would have to have your head examined to do this willingly for the wife of King Henry VIII... knowing that this behavior is high treason for which the punishment is imminent death. Why would she do this? Was she an incurable romantic? Was she really unintelligent (stupid) or simply lost her mind? Or were there other, more compelling reasons? I think several theories exist, but I would like to hear your opinions. 

I think that after George's death she went insane, that it shook her up a little, even though she did accuse him of incest with Anne. I think George was a distant, reserved husband and this was how her jealousy was first launched; therefore, she probably, upset and without thinking, spread a rumor about George's supposed "incest", and Anne's enemies, trying to make her look even more bad than she already was at the moment, bought the story and reported it to the king. In short words, she lost her mind.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Alixz on August 22, 2007, 08:50:40 AM
Why would a child of Katherine Howard's, if it were a girl, be ahead of Mary in the line of succession?

Henry never put Elizabeth ahead of Mary.

Because Edward died young, Henry left his throne to his daughters in the order that they were born. Or Edward left the throne to his sisters in the order that his father had set up.

Would that have changed that for a child of Katherine Howard?
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 22, 2007, 01:19:41 PM
Henry never put Elizabeth ahead of Mary.

Actually he did at one point. Later they were both proclaimed bastards...

_______________________________________


So, does anyone think that it's likely that the reason Jane encouraged the Katherine/Culpepper affair was because Katherine's uncle Norfolk had put her up to it, wanting Katherine to get pregnant, knowing that Henry will not be able to accomplish it? That would sort of make sense, in a weird way.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Alixz on August 22, 2007, 03:47:26 PM
Helen,

 I see your point.  Elizabeth was put over Mary while the Boleyn was still in favor, but never before Edward.  However, I do think that Katherine Howard's uncle would have been that devious.  Imagine if she had succeeded in the subterfuge and had produced a son!  But of course since that is up to the male, then it would have been all Culpepper's doing.

But Henry would have been none the wiser and it makes one wonder who would be on the throne today!
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: dmitri on August 22, 2007, 05:50:53 PM
Yes a daughter by Howard would have been interesting. If she had remained Queen she would have been ahead of the two declared bastards after Edward's death. Wouldn't have Mary just have loved having to bow and scrape to yet another younger half-sister.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on August 23, 2007, 02:32:14 PM
Wouldn't have Mary just have loved having to bow and scrape to yet another younger half-sister.

It would have drove her (mary) insane if such happened....
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 23, 2007, 04:49:11 PM
Yes, In succession Mary would have been behind any daughters born to Anne of Cleves, Katherine Howard or Katherine Parr (but still ahead of Elizabeth! . She was never "relegitimised" by Henry, and in fact had to sign her agreement that her mother's marriage had been invalid. This happened shortly after the execution of Anne Boleyn, and was a precondition of her being able to return to court.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Mari on August 24, 2007, 02:10:58 AM
Since We are discussing Jane Boleyn and Katherine Howard one thing I am curious about is this...before Henry married Katherine Howard it was known by the Family and servants that Katherine had been less than circumspect. while living with the elderly Dowager Duchess of Norfolk " Firstly, she had been caught in a compromising position with Edward Manox, her music teacher, when she was thirteen. Katherine then formed a liaison with Francis Dereham  and he was a frequent visitor to the dormitory.( where Katherine and other girls slept) In fact, they had sworn before witnesses to marry each other as soon as she was older, and called each other "husband" and "wife". When he went on a journey to Ireland, he left his money in her possession, and made presents to her of clothing and jewelry. Katherine, in turn, bestowed sexual favors on him, going so far as to have intercourse with him in full view of the other people in the dormitory. "

My question is this Why in the World would the Duke of Norfolk knowing her past and knowing that it would come out at some point would he let her marry Henry? Could he not have sent her from Court? It seems to me he took as big a gamble as Jane Boleyn! And then would he not have had spies to watch over Catherine...would he have known about Culpepper? And would he have known about Jane Boleyn's part in it?

"Her great-aunt, the elderly Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, was arrested for a time for possible collusion in Katherine's early sexual indiscretions, but she was soon released. Her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk was not so lucky, but followed her to the block. He had evaded the axe years before in the matter of his other niece, Anne Boleyn by turning against her, but that tactic didn't work for him this time."
Information from this site:
www.geocities.com/soho/studios/1344/howard.html
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: dmitri on August 24, 2007, 02:15:06 AM
It was all about power and influence for the Howard family.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Mari on August 24, 2007, 02:24:12 AM
Yes, but where Jane Boleyn had testified against her Husband the first time which helped Henry divorce Anne Boleyn... the second time She misjudged the situation but the Duke of Norfolk was an old Political figure after Power and he must have known that Catherine's past would come out! He wasn't on the right side of Henry the first time and this time finished him off!!
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 27, 2007, 04:29:24 PM
Why in the World would the Duke of Norfolk knowing her past and knowing that it would come out at some point would he let her marry Henry?

I am not sure if he knew, or at least knew the extent of Katherine's behavior. The Duchess knew, but she didn't really advertise it, I imagine, since it wouldn't make her look too good.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: bell_the_cat on August 27, 2007, 04:45:22 PM
and remember that we are talking about the Duke's step mother, Katherine's step-grandmother, here, so they weren't particularly close!
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 27, 2007, 05:08:11 PM
and remember that we are talking about the Duke's step mother, Katherine's step-grandmother, here, so they weren't particularly close!

Right.

I don't think the Duke was one bit interested in his niece Katherine until she caught the king's eye, which was when he realized how much he could gain through her. And at that point it was too late for him to start asking questions about her, and I doubt his stepmother would have volunteered any tales. After all, she too had a lot to gain by playing ignorant, and a lot to lose if she started telling all... that is if she knew all. She may not have known even half the story, only guessed, and decided not to open the Pandora's box. It was much easier that way. 
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: dolgoruky18 on August 31, 2007, 06:43:12 AM
Several posters are quite right about Jane Parker, the daughter of Lord Morely and wife of George Boleyn, Viscount Rochford. She did indeed testify against her husband on the charge of incest with the queen his sister. Her motives for doing so remain mysterious. It is true that most writers have assumed that her marriage was unhappy, although it has recently been claimed that it did produce one son, George Boleyn, who died as Dean of Lichfield in the reign of James I.

Lady Rochford continued her habit of spying on Henry's later wives, but became close to Katherine Howard and assisted her by making the arrangements for her 'conversations' with Culpepper. Again, her possible motivation is obscure apart from the fact that she and the young queen were related. Professor Starkey is convinced that no actual act of adultery took place between Katherine and Thomas Culpepper and indeed there is no documentray evidence to support the idea. Lady Rochford is said to have become insane before her execution on the same day as Katherine Howard and there appears to have been some hesitation as to whether or not it was legal to execute a mad person. Norfolk's step-mother, the old Dowager Duchess of Norfolk, was imprisoned in the Tower as was her daughter Lady Bridgewater and a number of other Howards. They were all charged with "misprision of Treason" i.e. knowing all about it, but saying nothing. Within a relatively short time, however, they were all released. Norfolk was not imprisoned until the very end of Henry VIII's reign when his son, the poet Earl of Surrey was arrested for Treason and executed. The Duke his father was due to follow him to the block, but Henry VIII died the night before the sentence was to be carried out. In the power struggles which followed over the next three days, no-one felt strong enough to give the final order. Norfolk survived until released by Mary I and died in his bed.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on August 31, 2007, 09:15:19 PM
Why in the World would the Duke of Norfolk knowing her past and knowing that it would come out at some point would he let her marry Henry?

I am not sure if he knew, or at least knew the extent of Katherine's behavior. The Duchess knew, but she didn't really advertise it, I imagine, since it wouldn't make her look too good.

Well, of course she didn't. Katheryn and the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk tried their best to keep quiet but, as it happens with all secrets, it came out.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on August 31, 2007, 09:16:42 PM
and remember that we are talking about the Duke's step mother, Katherine's step-grandmother, here, so they weren't particularly close!

In Jean Plaidy's Murder Most Royal, those two are described as enemies!
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: azrael7171918 on September 14, 2007, 05:03:29 AM

 Actually the Duke of Norfolk did not follow Kathrine to the block.  Henry died before he had the chance to sign the warrant of execution and eventually the Duke was freed and had his property reinstated.


Azrael
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on September 14, 2007, 09:00:37 PM
Yes, that is true. Mary freed Norfolk because of his fervent Catholicism.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Kimberly on September 18, 2007, 02:54:01 PM
I ordered this through my book club today;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Boleyn-Infamous-Lady-Rochford/dp/0297850814 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Boleyn-Infamous-Lady-Rochford/dp/0297850814)
 
Bit off-putting that Jane Seymour is on the cover but ya never know. Its supposed to be a "biography"
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 18, 2007, 03:08:18 PM
I ordered this through my book club today;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Boleyn-Infamous-Lady-Rochford/dp/0297850814 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Boleyn-Infamous-Lady-Rochford/dp/0297850814)
 
Bit off-putting that Jane Seymour is on the cover but ya never know. Its supposed to be a "biography"

Good find, Kim - looks like it's brand new! Funny about them using a fragment of the Jane Seymour portrait on the cover, but at least they didn't use the face... I think Jane Boleyn's portraits are not that easy to come by. Last year someone posted a sketch of her somewhere, but I can't find it now. Anyone have it?
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on September 18, 2007, 03:57:05 PM
I ordered this through my book club today;
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Boleyn-Infamous-Lady-Rochford/dp/0297850814 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jane-Boleyn-Infamous-Lady-Rochford/dp/0297850814)
 
Bit off-putting that Jane Seymour is on the cover but ya never know. Its supposed to be a "biography"

That IS Jane Seymour. . . and I think they put Jane Seymour's portrait on the cover to make it look good. Which, I must say, it does.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 18, 2007, 04:05:52 PM
That IS Jane Seymour. . .

Yes, that's what Kim said, it's Jane Seymour on the cover...
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on September 19, 2007, 06:41:48 PM
i meant it in a 'you're right, it is her' sense. that's why I capitalized the 'is'. :).
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Kimberly on September 26, 2007, 08:05:52 AM
OK boys n girls, my bio on Jane Boleyn has arrived and I have just skimmed through it quickly. You know, I think it is going to turn out to be a little gem- it appears to be well researched and thorough and full off nuggets of information. It never occurred to me that Madge Shelton (one of Henry's potential paramours), was Jane's younger sister.
I'll keep you all posted but I must finish re reading Rohl's Purple Secret first.!!
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 26, 2007, 08:12:17 AM
It never occurred to me that Madge Shelton (one of Henry's potential paramours), was Jane's younger sister.

Are you serious? So Jane was related to Anne then? They always talked about Madge being Anne's cousin... Hw exactly are they related to the Boleyns?

Tell us more! I may have to get this book...
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Kimberly on September 26, 2007, 08:47:09 AM
Oops no, there are 2 Margaret Sheltons BUT Anne and "Madge" Shelton were related.
Thomas Boleyn was Anne's father and his sister, another Anne (our Anne's aunt) married John Shelton. Madge was one of their daughters. Their son,Sir John Shelton married Margaret Parker who was Jane's sister. Therefore Madge was anne's first cousin and the other Margaret Shelton (Jane Parker's sister) was married to Margaret (Madge) Shelton's brother. Good lord, how confusing it can be....I think I need a nice cup of tea and a piece of cake.  :)
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Kimberly on September 26, 2007, 09:15:07 AM
(http://www.kitegallery.net/d/89716-2/hj.jpg)

Bigger image:- http://www.kitegallery.net/d/89716-2/hj.jpg (http://www.kitegallery.net/d/89716-2/hj.jpg)
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 26, 2007, 09:20:15 AM
OMG, that's confusing!
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: bell_the_cat on September 26, 2007, 05:46:40 PM
There's a new book out about Jane Boleyn - it's called " that Rochford woman" or something like that. It's very pro Jane -early example of a woman making her own way but coming up against the "glass ceiling"!!

Anyone else seen it?
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Mari on September 27, 2007, 02:52:10 AM
Between the Boleyn's and the other family the  Howards ( separately and together)   how much inter-marriage was the rule between Cousins? I know that this was common at that time but between first Cousins even in the Royal Circles and outer circles of Nobility .... English and French there was an awful lot of marriage. I wonder how much disease in the Boleyn family and what kind was caused by all this? It seems like I constantly run into someone marrying the First cousin or the King has an affair with this Sister and then that Sister or even marries the Family twice as say Henry VIII did with first Anne Boleyn and then her Cousin Katherine Howard! If anyone has run into a book about this let me have the Title please. The Jane Boleyn Book looks really interesting!  :)
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Kimberly on October 13, 2007, 04:34:59 PM
Oakie doakie then. I think that Jane Boleyn is possibly a much-maligned woman.
Here is a bit of background; The patroness of Jane's family was none other than Lady Margaret Beaufort. Indeed it was she who brokered the marriage between Jane's parents and helped pay the christening expenses for Jane and her siblings.Jane was brought to court and was one of the maidens who performed in the "Chateau Vert" masque, (possibly the entertainment at which Henry first noticed Anne Boleyn). Jane had the world before her when she left home for the Tudor court-marrying a young man (George Boleyn) of her own age and from an up and coming family. She was destined to be the mistress of Hever and Blickling. Was it a "bad" marriage? well, she repeated Anne's secret (about Henry's sexual failure) to George, which in itself implies a relaxed rather than a failed union.She confessed the same to Cromwell- perhaps buckling under the pressure of relentless questioning. However, she said no more than that.
Jane didnot appear in person at the trial of Anne or George. In fact,the weight of opinion at the time was in favour of George's acquittal until he read aloud from the paper he was handed, referring to Henry's lack of potency. This was the only time Jane's name cropped up at the Boleyn trials.
Sir John Spelman, who sat on the bench throughout, didnot touch on Jane at all. Instead, he wrote that the incriminating evidence against Anne came from LADY WINGFIELD.
Cromwell,(who had all the "information" he needed to condemn Anne directly from Smeaton's confession), simply made general remarks on the disgust at Anne's conduct felt by the Ladies of the Bedchamber. Jane had no need to slander her husband- the financial implications alone wuld have been ruinous.
She carved a career for herself after George's death but threw it all away when faced with the demands of Catherine Howard. To put it simply,she was addicted to the "celebrity" of the court and supporting Catherine's "naughtiness" cost Jane her reputation and her head.
So what was she guilty of...Anne's death ? Surely the blame for that lies squarely at Henry's feet. Anne would not or couldnot change her role from Mistress to suppliant wife and that was not what Henry wanted. She didnot inform against Catherine Howard when she had good reason to do so. She didnot bring down the Boleyns but she was guilty of of helping Catherine conduct an illicit affair. It was for this and no other reason that Jane died.
As for the chalk drawing of "Lady Parker"by Holbein (its around here somewhere), Jane was never "Lady Parker". When Holbein arrived in England she had been married to George for two years and was Lady Rochford by the time the artist returned to England.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Kimberly on October 13, 2007, 04:38:10 PM
I'd loe to know what the dirt was that Lady Wingfield had about Anne!!!!!
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Mari on October 14, 2007, 02:03:29 AM
   

http://books.google.com/books?id=dQIExqMDvMEC&pg=PP1&dq=the+rise+and+fall+of+anne+boleyn&ei=yL8RR6LLKIWY7wLilJTQBw&sig=jb7w7aCpbs841DZm5cE1CvGCXuY#PPA227,M1

The Rise and Fall of Anne Boleyn: Family Politics at the Court of Henry VIII by Retha M. Warnicke  page 227-228

Quote
Lady Wingfield apparently testified from the Grave. Shortly before her Death apparently as early as 1533 she had conveyed to a Confidante some information about Anne's Sexual habits that may have taken place before She was officially recognized as the King's Wife. How the Statement was discovered is unknown but it can be speculated that it was revealed by Thomas Harvey, a son of Lady Wingfield's second Husband by his first Wife who was a Sister to FitzWilliam. The Testimony has been lost but special consideration was given it  by Contemporaries  including one of the Judges Sir John Spelman attached special significance to it as a Deathbed Statement. It essentially  meant that Anne had been a Libertine prior to 1533 and   it made the other incredible charges that she had been in  Carnal  Relations with with five men  seem plausible.

Interesting also is this "Probably this public trial with the embarassing claims that five men had cuckolded the King had been  been considered necessary as a precautionary measure in case  word leaked out about the Fetus."
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: dmitri on October 14, 2007, 03:57:56 AM
I tend to think Anne Boleyn was a case of a severe case of injustice. As for her brother George he went to his death as an innocent. Henry wanted Anne dead. He had already become involved with Jane Seymour.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Kimberly on October 14, 2007, 03:58:05 PM
Absolutely, Dmitri.
Title: Re: What was the reason Jane Boleyn aided and abetted Katherine Howard...
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 15, 2007, 01:46:28 PM
Going back to the original topic: what do you think was the reason Jane Boleyn risked her life by aiding and abetting Katherine Howard in her adultery?