Alexander Palace Forum

Forum Announcements => Forum Announcements => Topic started by: Belochka on August 25, 2007, 11:16:57 PM

Title: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 25, 2007, 11:16:57 PM
SEARCH has received the formal Press release statement from Ekaterinburg.

As soon as it is translated into English it will be posted here.

Margarita Nelipa on behalf of Peter Sarandinaki President of the SEARCH Foundation, Inc.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 25, 2007, 11:40:29 PM
The Ekaterinburg Press Release

Kindly translated by Masha Tolstoy-Sarandinaki

August 24, 2007


1.   In June 2007, at the initiative of A.E. Grigoriev, Deputy Director of the Regional Center for the Preservation of Monuments in the Sverdlovsk Region, V.V. Shitov, a historian and local lore expert and N.B. Neujmin, a member of the military historical club “Mountain Shield”, understanding what an impact this event would have on world history, a decision was made to undertake new searches along the Old Koptyaki Road with the goal of discovering a supposed second area where the remains of members of the Romanov Imperial family were concealed.

2.   In order to do this, preliminary consultations took place with the Sverdlovsk Region’s Ministry of Culture; the Institute of History & Archeology – Russian Academy of Sciences, Ural Division; Museum to the Memory of the Romanovs and “Obreteniye” Foundation – that first searched these areas; and the Institute of Flora and Fauna Ecology at the Russian Academy of Sciences, Ural Division.

3.   The Center for Scientific Research & Development, with the financial support of S.M. Khudyakov, Director of “Trak”, an LLC (having an agreement for the supervision of any archeological works) came forth as the organizer and leader of the planned works.

4.   The first stage of the search used a series of reconnaissance methods in areas not previously searched.  If there were no results from that, a second method of laying archeological trenches was intended.  In order to scout out the areas, members of the military historical club, “Mountain Shield” were invited, under the leadership of A.M. Kruchinin.


To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 25, 2007, 11:43:12 PM
Continued from previous posting:

5.   On July 29, 2007, certain items were discovered by S.O. Plotnikov and L.G. Vakhmyakov.  In the bore pit that had been located and explored, coals, bone remains, nails and fragments from a ceramic vessel were unearthed.

6.   On July 30, 2007 the decision was made to reorganize the expedition to include the efforts of the Center for Scientific Research & Development -- Department Head, S.N. Pogorelov; Institute of History & Archeology, Russian Academy of Sciences – Ural Division -- Deputy, Candidate of Historical Sciences, E. A. Kurlaev and Anthropologist, Candidate of Historical Sciences, D. P. Razhev; Institute of Flora & Fauna Ecology, Russian Academy of Sciences – Ural Division – Biologist, N.G. Yerokhin; Consultant, Doctor of Geological Sciences, A.N. Avdonin; as well as others working with the Scientific Research & Development Center, Ural state institutions and members of the “Mountain Shield” club and “Obreteniye Foundation”.

7.   At this stage of the study, an area of 100 square meters was laid out for further investigation.  The work was carried out according to archeological methods, with the use of drainage trenches.  As a result of this exploration, a large spot of coal was exposed.  Upon further examination, this spot was determined to be T-shaped.  After removing the layer of coal, the shapes and sizes of two overlying pits became evident in the subsoil.

To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 25, 2007, 11:47:05 PM
Continued from previous posting:

8.   The pits had quasi-oval shapes, were step-patterned and perpendicular to one another.  The northern pit, measuring 1.5 x .5 meters, with a coal fill of up to .35 meters contained calcined (burned) bone remains, nails and small fragments of ceramic.  The southern pit, measuring approximately 1.2 x .9 meters with a coal fill of .60 meters contained fresh (unburned) and calcined  (burned) bone remains, nails, iron angles, large fragments of a ceramic vessel and bullets.  In the process of sifting and washing through the soil, tiny fragments of artifacts were found.

9.   The collected materials were sent to a research lab for work up, taking into account safekeeping and a limited access to these items.

10.  Work has already begun on various scientific analyses (archival, archeological, anthropological and biological) – thus forming a complete scientific account.

11.  Bone remains and bullets were transferred to the regional forensic labs for testing.  This transfer was done according to a certified decree by the Senior Criminal Procurator of the Russian Federation’s Senior Justice Advisor, V.N. Soloviev.  Notification of this find has been sent to the governor of the Sverdlovsk Region, E.E. Rossel and His Holiness, Patriarch Alexey.

To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 25, 2007, 11:50:27 PM
continued from previous posting:

12. Based on initial investigations, one can make the following preliminary conclusions and establish facts:

•    An area discovered along the Old Koptyaki Road presented double bonfire sites, spread between pits, which contained bone remains in various degrees of preservation and condition; bullets; iron nails and angles, fragments of a ceramic vessel and other objects.

•    Initial anthropological analysis determined that the bone remains were human, subjected to varying forms of destruction – including burning.  The bones belong to two young individuals – a young man between the ages of 10-13 years, and a young woman about 18-23.

•    Ceramic vessel fragments are identical to those found in the original burial site found in 1991, and appear to be fragments from ceramic amphorae containing Japanese sulfuric acid.

•    Iron angles and nails, apparently, appear to have held together the wooden crates containing the vessels with the sulfuric acid.

•    The metal jacket bullets are of different calibers, from cartridges for short-barreled firearms.

To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 25, 2007, 11:54:54 PM
This set of facts, the location, area, bone remains, bullets, ceramics, iron fasteners, as well as the result from the anthropological analysis, allows one to come to the conclusion that the place and remains of members of the Romanov Imperial Family, Tsarevich Alexei and his sister, Grand Dutchess Maria, concealed by revolutionaries in 1918, has been found.

A.E. Grigoriev, Deputy General Director of the Scientific Research & Dev. Center

S.N. Pogorelov, Deputy Head of Archeological Research Dept., Scientific Research & Dev. Center

E.A. Kurlaev, Doctor, Institute of History & Archeology, Russian Academy of Sciences – Ural Region

D.I. Razhev, Senior Scientist at the Institute of History & Archeology, Russian Academy of Sciences – Ural Region

N.G. Yerokhin, Scientist at the Institute of Flora & Fauna Ecology, Russian Academy of Sciences – Ural Region

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ekaterinburg Press Release posted on behalf of Peter Sarandinaki, President of the SEARCH Foundation.  
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: DeAnochka on August 26, 2007, 12:20:48 AM
Wow. It's somehow hard to find words after reading this.. Thank you so much for posting it.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 12:23:26 AM
The Ekaterinburg Press Conference - the first formal announcement of the archeological findings.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgPressconference.jpg)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 12:26:38 AM
It's great news!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 12:45:33 AM
If there is any request to do so, I can also post the Russian language text of the Ekaterinburg Press Release.

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Holly on August 26, 2007, 02:15:20 AM
Thanks for sharing this, Belochka!
I really really really hope these remains belong to the missing children. =[
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on August 26, 2007, 06:24:33 AM
Thank you for posting. That was very informative and thoroughly explains everything. I can see now why they are so confident they have found them.

11.  Bone remains and bullets were transferred to the regional forensic labs for testing.  This transfer was done according to a certified decree by the Senior Criminal Procurator of the Russian Federation’s Senior Justice Advisor, V.N. Soloviev.  Notification of this find has been sent to the governor of the Sverdlovsk Region, E.E. Rossel and His Holiness, Patriarch Alexey.

I hope this eliminates any 'chain of custody' conspiracy/switch/tampering theories.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: reashka on August 26, 2007, 08:37:01 AM
That's a wonderful news Belochka! Thank you for posting as many of us are anticipating for that news. Kudos SEARCH Foundation!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Agneschen on August 26, 2007, 10:49:20 AM
Great news indeed ! although after all these years and so many controversies it almost seems unbelievable. I hope these remains really are those of the missing children. Hopefully they are and these 2 suffering innocent children be laid to rest with their parents / siblings and at last allowed to find peace for eternity.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: GDLynn on August 26, 2007, 11:24:48 AM
Thank you Belochka!!! I'm so happy that you posted this!!! Oh how I HOPE it's Them!!

Lynn
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Jarian on August 26, 2007, 11:26:35 AM
WOW thanks Belochka! I really hope this is them!!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: royal_netherlands on August 26, 2007, 12:26:03 PM
Wonderfull news!!!!!!!!!!! I really hope it is them, so the can be laid to rest with their parents and siblings. And the find peace together.


                    RN
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eurohistory on August 26, 2007, 12:31:58 PM
And one can only but hope that once and for all the myriad claims put forward by various people fixated on either being the children of Nicholas II or their descendants will be finally put to rest!

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Arleen on August 26, 2007, 12:57:29 PM
Belochka you are wonderful!  Thank you so much for posting this.....how marvelous the news.  We can only hope and pray that it is really them and that the whole Royal family can be united to finally rest in peace.

Now I'm going to the AA threads to see what they think of this....it surly must burst their bubble and make redundant all the infighting over the past few years on that thread.

Arleen
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on August 26, 2007, 01:36:07 PM
Wow. I haven't been on here for months and I log on to see this news. Amazing. Thank you so much Belochka for posting this. I hope this really is the answer we have been saying would be found for so long.

What a terrific discovery. I really can't believe it! Finally..the survivor theories put to bed!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: BobAtchison on August 26, 2007, 01:44:38 PM
There is no doubt that these are the remains of Alexis and one of his sisters. The sister is most likely Maria. The Russians always said was the missing daughter and I have always believed them.  Anastasia was found in the main grave years ago.  I spoke with Capt. Peter Sarandinaki of SEARCH last night and he has direct information from Yekaterinburg and Avodonin and based on their reports and the press reports I am certain these are the last two Imperial children.

I have been exactly where they were found - it is amazing they were precisely where Yurovsky said they would were.

Incredibly, I have heard some of Anna Anderson's last remaining advocates are already claiming the Russian Government has planted these remains and this is another part of the decades old 'conspiracy' to discredit her. As I have said before nothing will ever persuade the diehard Anna Anderson people.  It's hopeless and this last wild conspiracy theory proves it.  Let us hope - this will be the absolute end to any more survivor claims.  We can consign all the "Anastasia was Anna Anderson" or "Alexis Survived" or "Someone Escaped" books to the dustbin.  Hopefully we have now seen the last of them.

Bob
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Damie on August 26, 2007, 01:47:37 PM
I'm totally speechless and very moved. Thanks for sharing this information with us!

Fear not them which kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul.

-Matt. 10:28
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on August 26, 2007, 01:50:34 PM
Thanks Bob for the clarification. I am so shocked by this news. I haven't been on here for so long, just thought I'd stop by today, and I see this news. Incredible.

So, just for my own clarification, and apologies if I am being horrendously ignorant, is the official line that Anastasia's body has already been found and that the bodies in the grave are that of Maria and Alexei? I thought this had never been agreed upon. Am I right in assuming that the condition of these new remains will prevent a height analysis to know for sure?

Thank you in advance for anyone who can help!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Khristeanna on August 26, 2007, 01:51:19 PM
There is really no doubt that the remains belong to them? Thats great! Finally, we can be sure of what really happen...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Teddy on August 26, 2007, 01:52:50 PM
Hopefully indeed put this an end to all the rumours of claimants.

But I think that if there was no Anna Anderson or other claimants, the Alexander Palace was not so big, as it is today.

Maybe we own Anna Anderson a "thank you". Because of her claimant, many of us were interested in the Romanovs. Because of the sadness of her story, the lies, the mystery, the magic, we are all here. I think, that if there was no brutal murder of the Romanovs and because the bodies were vanished for many years of the earth, we are here.

Gr. Teddy
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: koloagirl on August 26, 2007, 01:55:20 PM
Aloha all!

To wake up to this amazing news!  

While we all know that the IF are together in Heaven -- now we can be happy to know that their bodies will rest together for eternity as well.

It is indeed hard to find words to express what you feel upon reading this news -- it makes it somhow so -- immediate!

Janet
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: BobAtchison on August 26, 2007, 02:20:00 PM
Rachel:

I don't know the specifics on how they arrived at the heights and age ranges.  The team is composed of technical, highly trained professional scientists.  I have met them, I trust them completely.  We will have to wait to learn more.

I saw the remains myself and I have always said that Anastasia's skull, like Olga and especially Tatiana look just like them.  When I saw all three I was virtually sure it was Anastasia and not Marie.

In St. Petersburg 9-10 years ago I had a 4 hour presentation from the forensics team which presented its evidence that they had Anastasia's remains and I was completely convinced they had come to the correct conclusion based on the evidence they had.

It seems the remains they have found confirm it's Marie they have just found.

Bob
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Marie-Catherine on August 26, 2007, 02:25:19 PM
Thanks for these clarifications Bob!

They will finally rest in peace our little angels.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: nena on August 26, 2007, 02:35:41 PM
I don't know why, but I am doubting.......
How? I believe Maria is missing/found......I want to know more informations about test. Will they test bones? I hope yes.....I would like to see Aleksei's bones......
But I am still confse....I think I am seer, because I opened thread 'MISSING REMAINS DISCOVERED' one-two weeks before this great news...!
And I really hope they're Aleksei and Maria. Nothing on TV, as far I know......
Thanks, Margarita for posting..... :)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: nena on August 26, 2007, 02:41:44 PM
But what if these bones are old maybe a century?
Do we know where those remain were killed?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lanie on August 26, 2007, 02:47:40 PM
Thank you for posting this.

I don't think we will ever know for sure which sister is missing, simply because the height discrepancies and how both teams only positively identified Olga, but it will be wonderful for them to be laid to rest with their family.  Like Bob said it surely won't make the AA fanatics shut up, but who cares?  It's unimportant.

I wonder why it took so long. It's exactly where Yurovsky said it was!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on August 26, 2007, 02:54:12 PM
Well, me, of all people, the big 'anti-AA'/supporter person sure doesn't want to be controversial and cause a fuss but I realy can't understand how if all of the female skeletons were at least 5'5" that one of them is Anastasia who was 5'2". It sounds like the opposite of 'she's too short to be Tatiana', she's too tall to be Anastasia. Also all three were said to be cleary full grown and over 18 because of backbone, collarbone and wisdom teeth growth, the other girls were all 19 or older, while Anastasia had only just turned 17. The third daughter skeleton has a damaged femur, and the Bolsheviks said Marie was shot in the thigh. So what exactly is the evidence that the skeleton was Anastasia, did they do a facial reconstruction? What is their evidence and can anyone present some?

If all the scientists had agreed the body was Anastasia I would accept it readily. But because Dr. Maples, a man very respected in his field who helped prove the bones were the IF even when others doubted and thought it was the merchant's family beileves that AN was missing, and the British scientists agreed and the Russians were the only dissenters, IMO it's the Russians who are the odd man out on the ID of the last grand duchess and I would really like to see more info on this, along with a reevaluation once all the tests are done to be completely sure, after all these years and all the confusion, mystery, and suffering for so many, that at last the entire family can be buried together and each person have their own name on their own grave. I am afraid due to the lack of this new find not being an entire skeleton they probably will never be able to evaluate the bones for height and age the way they did the others. Let's hope the whole truth comes out in the end, for all of them.

And yes, I do know that the main thing that matters is that they are all found, the mystery is solved, Yurovksy is not a liar and the claimants' stories can officially be laid to rest as the fiction they always were, though wild theories are sure to come from those who will not be able to give up or admit they were wrong and move on.  Though still shocked, I am relieved, amazed and excited this find has been made. I would say happy, but it's hard to be happy when you think that these are innocent murder victims who died horrible deaths and then had their bodies desecrated. When I first started obsessing over the Romanovs 33 years ago as a 12 year old, I never thought communism would fall and that the bodies would be found and honored, and even up until this year never thought this find was possible. This does honor to their memories and lives at last. Time has brought the IF justice, and reverence, and hopefully peace. Though nothing can ever right the wrongs that were done to that family back in 1918, it means something that people are trying and that they care. It's a great moment in history.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lanie on August 26, 2007, 02:55:38 PM
Annie, I think the problem is the height thing is so hit-and-miss considering it's only a rough estimate from bones that were sawed off and so on.  We didn't have full skeletons, and I'm sure we couldn't exactly say, "Okay, this rib bone definitely goes to THIS skeleton!"
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on August 26, 2007, 03:07:57 PM
But what if these bones are old maybe a century?
Do we know where those remain were killed?

In the report the explain how this grave matches the other and even contains identical items to the first one.

Yes nena when you started this thread I bet you never imagined all the news that was to come and that the missing kids would actually be discovered and acccounted for. I still can't believe it, I have to keep coming back here reading the headline again to make sure I didn' t dream it, wow!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on August 26, 2007, 03:09:56 PM
Annie, I think the problem is the height thing is so hit-and-miss considering it's only a rough estimate from bones that were sawed off and so on.  We didn't have full skeletons, and I'm sure we couldn't exactly say, "Okay, this rib bone definitely goes to THIS skeleton!"

That's true, and I admire the work of all who have worked on this. I only hope in the end it will all come out as accurate, and we will know the whole story. Maybe these new Yurovsky papers will shed new light too. Again this is an exciting time to be a Romanov and Russian history fan.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: BobAtchison on August 26, 2007, 03:16:55 PM
There were dozens of professionals on the Russian side who worked on the identification of the main remains years ago.  They came from all areas - Russia's top dental forensics team were involved.  They respected Maple's contribution and the fact he disagreed with them.  They were firmly convinced they had Anastasia.

Maples was not always correct; in his book he says that the remains of the Imperial family would have been unrecognizable in a day or two because they would have started to decompose in the July heat in Yekaterinburg.  This was not true.  The bodies were immersed in the cold waters at the bottom of the mine shaft and when they came out they were frozen. This was a reason they could not successfully burn the corpses.  This is the same reason Jimmy's body was preserved for so long.

It is interesting that they found cloth spieces in the newly discovered pits.  When Alexis body was taken from the mine it was the only one partially clothed.  He was wearing a striped naval undershirt.

Bob
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: nena on August 26, 2007, 03:21:56 PM
Bob, how do you know what Aleksei was wearing?
I don't understand....What Yurovsky...Something about new found grave and his memories? What?
please, someone can answer me!

nena
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lucien on August 26, 2007, 04:02:03 PM
The Ekaterinburg Press Conference - the first formal announcement of the archeological findings.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgPressconference.jpg)

Thank you very very much dear Belochka,for taking the trouble and time to post this very moving news.The only thing that really matters now is that the children will be re-united with their family in St.Petersburg in a not to distant future.A tragedy that has captivated so many for so long,not in the least myself ever since I was a child,has found an ending in the find of Alyosha and Marie.Very moving.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: rgt9w on August 26, 2007, 04:12:18 PM
Bob and Belochka,

Thank you for the information you have shared.

Bob, can you share where you found the information about Alexei wearing the shirt?

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: rgt9w on August 26, 2007, 04:13:29 PM
Bob and Belochka,

Thank you for the information you have shared.

Bob, can you share where you found the information about Alexei wearing the shirt when he was removed from the mine?

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: charley on August 26, 2007, 04:22:54 PM
If they found the bones exactly where Yurovsky said they were, why did no one look there until now?  When will DNA testing be done?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 05:04:56 PM
I agree with Bob completely. I think Maples was wrong as well. The Russians have some of the greatest experts in the world in many different areas. To dismiss their abilities is quite frankly insulting. I think the latest remains are Alexis and Maria. Anastasia is already buried with the others.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: AGRBear on August 26, 2007, 05:23:18 PM
There were dozens of professionals on the Russian side who worked on the identification of the main remains years ago.  They came from all areas - Russia's top dental forensics team were involved.  They respected Maple's contribution and the fact he disagreed with them.  They were firmly convinced they had Anastasia.

Maples was not always correct; in his book he says that the remains of the Imperial family would have been unrecognizable in a day or two because they would have started to decompose in the July heat in Yekaterinburg.  This was not true.  The bodies were immersed in the cold waters at the bottom of the mine shaft and when they came out they were frozen. This was a reason they could not successfully burn the corpses.  This is the same reason Jimmy's body was preserved for so long.

It is interesting that they found cloth spieces in the newly discovered pits.  When Alexis body was taken from the mine it was the only one partially clothed.  He was wearing a striped naval undershirt.

Bob

I remember us talking about Maples and the bodies being immersed in the mine water.   We had gone into  the time line hour by hour about the condition of the bodies. We had some great links to the decomposition of  a pig.     I can't seem to find it when using "search".    If anyone knows where it is,  I'd like to reread that information.
----

Thanks  Belochka for the  information which was translated into English so we all could read the latest news.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alice on August 26, 2007, 05:39:36 PM
In my opinion we will not know, definitively, which Grand Duchess this is until more tests have been conducted on the recently disovered remains. I've always believed that until all four were found, we could not be conclusive about which Grand Duchess is which.

The Russians had valid arguments for believing Anastasia was in the mass grave, likewise, Maples had valid arguments for believing that Marie was in the mass grave. Obviously this was not easy to discern if it was Marie or Anastasia, given the condition of the remains and the Grand Duchess' proximity in age. I tend to think that the Russians have it correct though, as Maples' arguments seemed to rely on the remains being too tall/too developed for Anastasia - but none of us know how tall or how developed Anastasia was at her time of death.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alice on August 26, 2007, 05:43:08 PM
I agree with Bob completely. I think Maples was wrong as well. The Russians have some of the greatest experts in the world in many different areas. To dismiss their abilities is quite frankly insulting. I think the latest remains are Alexis and Maria. Anastasia is already buried with the others.

It's insulting to dismiss the abilities of either team, IMO.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Ilias_of_John on August 26, 2007, 06:49:56 PM
This is wonderful news.Finally all the theories can be be put to rest as will the two Saints.
I want to congratulate you all for all the efforts that you have put in, in keeping their blessed memories alive. Especially you Bob, who i understand live and breathe the glory of the Romanov's. May your efforts be rewarded in this life and beyond.
Hopefully the Russian goverment, Church and people, will formally  aknoweledge this remarkable finding and honour these memebers of their Imperial family.

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: grandduchess_42 on August 26, 2007, 06:58:49 PM
AMAZING!
so they are sure that the bones are of the grand duchess and the tsarevitch?

no doubt?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 07:22:38 PM
The Ekaterinburg Press Conference - the first formal announcement of the archeological findings.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgPressconference.jpg)

Thank you very very much dear Belochka,for taking the trouble and time to post this very moving news.The only thing that really matters now is that the children will be re-united with their family in St.Petersburg in a not to distant future.A tragedy that has captivated so many for so long,not in the least myself ever since I was a child,has found an ending in the find of Alyosha and Marie.Very moving.

Dear Lucien,

Thank you for your kind consideration. Indeed the only issue that matters is that they shall all be united as one in St. Petersburg.

Best regards,

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 07:31:55 PM
Well Maples was only one of many. He seemed to be clutching at straws over the height which clearly could not be determined as nobody knew the real height of Anastasia when she died. Were you there with a tape measure?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 07:36:04 PM
I believe it is appropriate that the Ekaterinburg Press Release is also provided here in the original:

Пресс — релиз

1.  В июне 2007 г. по инициативе зам. директора НГЩ по охране памятников Свердловской области Григорьева А.Е. и историка-краеведа Шитова В.В., члена военно-исторического клуба «Горный щит» Неуймина Н.Б.. осознавая мировую историческую значимость события и объекта,   было   принято   решение   провести   новые   изыскательские   работы   на   Старой Коптяковской дороге с целью обнаружения предполагаемого второго места укрытия останков членов императорской семьи Романовых.

2.  Для этого на подготовительной стадии были проведены консультации с Министерством культуры Свердловской области; Институтом истории и археологии УрО РАН, Музеем памяти Романовых и фондом «Обретение» - первые исследователи этих мест и объектов; Институтом
Экологии растений и животных УрО РАН.


To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 07:38:21 PM
3.   НПЦ при финансовой поддержке ООО «Трак» директор Худяков СМ. (договор на
проведение   археологического   надзора)   выступило   как   организатор   и   руководитель
планируемых работ.

4.   Первый этап изысканий проводился методами поисковых отрядов, на неисследованных площадях, в случае отсутствия результатов предполагалось использовать методику закладки археологических траншей. Для выполнения разведочных работ приглашены члены военно-
исторического клуба «Горный щит» под руководством Кручинина A.M.

5.   29.07.07 г. поисковиками Плотниковым СО. и Вахмяковым Л.Г. были обнаружены особые находки. В заложенном разведочном шурфе выявлены угли, костные останки, гвозди и фрагменты керамического сосуда.

To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on August 26, 2007, 07:40:02 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 07:54:53 PM
6.  С 30.07.07 г. было принято решение переформировать экспедицию в комплексную. НПЦ - начальник отряда Погорелов С.Н., ИИиА УрО РАН - заместитель, к.и.н. Курлаев Е.А., антрополог к.и.н. Ражев Д.П., ИЭРиЖ УрО РАН - биолог Ерохин Н.Г., Фонд «Обретение» -консультант д.г.н. Авдонин А.Н. А также сотрудники НПЦ, УрГУ, члены клуба «Горный шит», фонда «Обретения».

7.  На этом этапе изучения был заложен исследовательский раскоп площадью 100 кв.м. Работы выполнялись по археологической методике с прокладкой водоотводных траншей. В результате исследований выявлено большое угольное пятно, при дальнейшей фиксации принявшее Т-образную форму. После выборки углистого слоя были определены формы и объемы двух налагающихся ям вырытых в материковой глине.
 
To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 07:58:43 PM
8.  Ямы    имели    подовальные    формы,    ступенчатую    профилировку,    располагались перпендикулярно друг к другу. Северная яма размерами около 1,5 х 0,5 м, с углистым заполнением мощностью до 0,35 м содержала кальцинированные костные останки, гвозди, мелкие фрагменты керамики. Южная яма размерами около 1,2 х 0,9 с углистым заполнением мощностью 0,60 м содержала сырые и кальцинированные костные останки, гвозди, железные уголки, крупные фрагменты керамического сосуда, пули. В процессе переборки и промывки грунта найдены мельчайшие фрагменты артефактов.

9.  Собранные материалы поступили в научную камеральную обработку, с учетом обеспечения сохранности и ограниченного допуска.

10.  Начаты   работы   по   проведению   научных   анализов   (архивные,   археологические, антропологические, биологические), составляется комплексный научный отчет.

To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 08:01:22 PM
11.   Костные останки и пули переданы для проведения специализированных анализов в Областную судмедэкспертизу, передача по акту заверена старшим прокурором-криминалистом Управления криминалистики Генеральной прокуратуры РФ старшим советником юстиции Соловьевым В.Н.. Информация о находке сообщена губернатору Свердловской области Э.Э. Росселю и Святейшему Патриарху Алексию.

To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 26, 2007, 08:05:49 PM
Thanks for the article Belochka! Hopefully those bones are of Alexei and his sister becuase we have been waiting forever for their remains. We will find out when they get the DNA tests out.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 08:07:22 PM
12.  На основании первичных исследований можно сделать следующие предварительные выводы
и констатировать факты:

-   на Старой Коптяковской дороге обнаружен объект представляющий двойное костровище расположенное в ямах, заполнение которых включало костные останки разной степени сохранности и состояния, пули, железные гвозди и уголки, фрагменты керамического сосуда и
другие предметы,

-   предварительный антропологический анализ определил костные останки человеческими, подвергнутыми разрушению разного характера, в том числе сожжению, кости принадлежат двум молодым индивидуумам, молодому человеку в возрасте 10-13 лет, и девушке - 18-23 лет.

-   фрагменты керамического сосуда идентичны найденным в основном погребении вскрытом в 1991 г., и являются обломками керамических амфор с японской серной кислотой,

To be continued ...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: DeAnochka on August 26, 2007, 08:08:16 PM
It would be amazing to see this article of clothing that was found - and still on the body?
This is extraordinary to me.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 08:11:25 PM
-   железные уголки и гвозди, вероятно, являются крепежом деревянных ящиков для сосудов с серной кислотой,

-   пули оболочные, разнокалиберные, от патронов для короткоствольного огнестрельного оружия.

Этот комплекс фактов; местоположение, объект, костные останки, пули, керамика, детали железного крепежа и итоги антропологического анализа позволяют сделать вывод, что найдено место и останки членов императорской семьи Романовых царевича Алексея и его сестры княжны Марии сокрытые революционерами в 1918 г,

Зам. Генерального директора НПЦ Григорьев А.Е.
Зам. начальника отдела археологических исследований НПЦ Погорелов С.Н.
Докторант Института истории и археологии УрО РАН Курлаев Е.А.
Старший научный сотрудник Института истории и археологии УрО РАН Ражев Д. И.
Научный сотрудник Института экологии растений и животных УрО РАН Ерохин Н.Г.
***********************************************************************************************************************
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Holly on August 26, 2007, 08:36:57 PM
Well Maples was only one of many. He seemed to be clutching at straws over the height which clearly could not be determined as nobody knew the real height of Anastasia when she died. Were you there with a tape measure?
It's not too hard to see how much shorter Anastasia was than her sisters. He wasn't 'clutching at straws' he was doing the best he could to estimate the height of the bodies. Even if it was give or take a couple of inches it was still way too tall for Anastasia.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alice on August 26, 2007, 08:48:03 PM
Well Maples was only one of many. He seemed to be clutching at straws over the height which clearly could not be determined as nobody knew the real height of Anastasia when she died. Were you there with a tape measure?

(I'm assuming this is directed at me).

What has me being there with a tape measure got to do with anything? Have I not already asserted that "Maples' arguments seemed to rely on the remains being too tall/too developed for Anastasia - but none of us know how tall or how developed Anastasia was at her time of death."? Were you there, Dmitri, collecting the skull fragments from the forest floor so that the skull would be complete and thus could be superimpositioned without estimations having to be made?

Maples was a Forensic Anthropologist who examined the remains. I'm not a Forensic Anthropologist and I didn't examine the remains and I'm assuming you didn't either. Thus, to dismiss his abilities is as insulting as dismissing the abilities of the Russian experts.

One team is obviously incorrect, but I don't think it's reflection of their abilities so much as the methods they employed to draw their conclusions. From what I understand the Russians relied more on computer superimposition where Maples' relied more on height extrapolation and development. We've established that the flaw in Maples' method of identification was that no-one knows how tall or how developed Anastasia was at her time of death. But there are flaws in computer superimposition, too - one is that the source of the superimposition, the skull, was incomplete.

Summary of point: neither team was comprised of incompetent half-witted fools, but rather, qualified experts. Thus, both teams' conclusions deserve consideration.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alice on August 26, 2007, 08:50:03 PM
Well Maples was only one of many. He seemed to be clutching at straws over the height which clearly could not be determined as nobody knew the real height of Anastasia when she died. Were you there with a tape measure?
It's not too hard to see how much shorter Anastasia was than her sisters. He wasn't 'clutching at straws' he was doing the best he could to estimate the height of the bodies. Even if it was give or take a couple of inches it was still way too tall for Anastasia.

Unforunately the bones he had to use were not complete - they had been sawn in half. But the skull the Russians had to use for their superimposition was also not complete - IIRC, the lower half of the skull was missing.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Holly on August 26, 2007, 08:59:55 PM
Exactly, he had to estimate by the limbs in that condition so it wouldn't be exactly correct but if Body No. 5 was really Anastasia, the height of her skeleton wouldn't grow by 6 inches. If anything, it would lessen the height. And according to it's back developement, it was at least 18.
Personally, I think making an identification based on skeletal growth is more accurate then taking pictures of the family and putting them over pictures of skulls in which half of the faces are missing.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 26, 2007, 09:43:08 PM
Well...Lets wait for the tests to come out first. These are based on circumstantial evidemce only, as there are many who died in the area. One should really wait for the forencic to confirm. It would be a real ending for the mystery.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 26, 2007, 10:22:14 PM
The aerial location published by the Russian media:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Ekaterinburgaerialsite.jpg)

1. Ganina Yama,

2. Location of the excavation.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 26, 2007, 10:29:52 PM
Thanks for the info.  :)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: rosieposie on August 26, 2007, 10:34:16 PM
Thanks for the news Squirrel and Bob  :)  I am glad they are all together again. :D
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 26, 2007, 10:36:29 PM
Once the remains were confirmed by forenic first.  ???
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: griffh on August 26, 2007, 11:11:00 PM
Even though I have been buried in the Empress' War Correspondence, I have followed every news item that Bob has so generously posted for all of us.  I have also followed each of Bob’s posts and found them incredibly interesting.  He had solved issues for me that I had not been clear about before.

At such a moment I just want to add how grateful I am for this Alexander Palace website and for its loving dedication to the IF and for the fact that it is the only place I can unite with persons who feel the same thrill of history that this event has produced within my heart.  Every since I have found out about this discovery of Alexis and Maria’s remains, I have tried to tell some of my friends about this historic find but it has meant very little or nothing to them.  If it were not for this wonderful website I would feel so alone in my joy and would have no one to share my elation with.  

I must also add how grateful I am to Margarita for her tenacious historic sense of exactness and her emphasis on the accurate translation of the Russian language.  Whilst working with Margarita I grew to deeply appreciate her continuous battle to establish a scientific sense of accuracy in the debate that raged over the remains of the IF.  I grew to appreciate her detailed sense of events in connection with the murder of Rasputin and her constant concerns over the translation of the Russian language which more often than not incorrectly translated.  It is so characteristic of Margarita’s marvelous ethic to give us, not only her very accurate translation of the Russian text about the discovery of the remains of Alexis and Maria, but to also give us the Russian text to compare against her translation.  Bravo la Contesse.  

I could add that Margarita has a vast library of Russian first source material, not to mention her medical expertise, and that this vast fund of information comprises the basis of her carefully researched conclusions which allows her to bring reason and common sense to debates that still rage and probably will continue to rage over the remains of the IF.  However if I did make such claims in her behalf, I might be accused of being biased.  So I will just say that both Bob and Margarita have an enviable research data base.  

While reading the following excerpts from the Empress’s War Correspondence for April 1915, when Nicky was on his victory tour of Galicia, I could not feeling a certain heartbreaking connection between the fate of Alexis’ framed photograph and the discovery of his remains.   Alix wrote Nicky:    

Letter No. 60 Tsarskoe Selo, April 8th, 1915
I send you in remembrance [of the Russian victory at Przemysl] an Image of St. Simeon - leave it for always as a guardian angel in your compartment - you will like the smell of the wood. -

Imperial Train. Proshourov. 12 April, 1915
MY PRECIOUS DARLING,
First of all, my warmest thanks for your two letters and the ikon of St. Simeon the Holy, and for Baby's photograph, which I have, alas I dropped out of the box and broken the glass. That happened in Przemysl...Nicky


Nicky’s thanks Alix “…for Baby’s photograph, which I have, alas I dropped out of the box and broken…”  

These words of Nicky seem so poignant and prophetic for after almost a century of searching, we have at last found the shattered pieces.  
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 27, 2007, 02:25:21 AM
Lets hope that it is as it claimed. A close to the story will be a compete cycle.  :)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Kurt Steiner on August 27, 2007, 04:31:01 AM
Let's hope that this discovery end to the issue and the remains of the IF is put to rest together.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Nomine on August 27, 2007, 05:28:17 AM
I am now in Russia. This information was published in many Russian newspapers and as far as I have spoken to Russian historians, they belive, the remains really could belong to Alexei. The Russian newspapers say the girl, whose remains were found, is Maria.

It may sound quite strange, but no/one except for historians is really excited about the discovery. I was quite disappointed to find out the Russians are not so fussy about the last Imperial family as are people in Western Europe etc. Well, I am gonna go to Ekaterinburg next week, so I will see.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Mazukov on August 27, 2007, 07:31:20 AM
Can we all just say Amen. too them both.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: GrandDuchess_2011 on August 27, 2007, 07:58:05 AM
We know they're all there, now to the problem as to which skeleton is who's. That way they can have a proper burial. Wouldn't it be cool to visit the clearly marked graves of the romanovs? I went to Washington, D.C. and visited JFK's grave. It gave a me chills down my spine.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lemur on August 27, 2007, 10:10:49 AM
Well...Lets wait for the tests to come out first. These are based on circumstantial evidemce only, as there are many who died in the area.

They have more than enough to be this confident. It's all over but the DNA testing. Did you know they even had the same exact type of containers of sulfuric acid  found in the first grave? No one is guessing here, they have much to convince them this the correct site or they would not have given the press release.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 27, 2007, 05:08:09 PM
I do hope the bones are of those of the Heir and the Grand Duchess. only DNA tests remains to find out the truth, but thats going to take same time. If is them I want to cry and laugh at the same time! happy that they would be laid to rest and cry for mourning and what they suffered.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: rgt9w on August 27, 2007, 06:19:27 PM
Here is a video segment I found on youtube.com


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFbo4gOs0AE
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Jarian on August 27, 2007, 06:25:43 PM
I do hope the bones are of those of the Heir and the Grand Duchess. only DNA tests remains to find out the truth, but thats going to take same time. If is them I want to cry and laugh at the same time! happy that they would be laid to rest and cry for mourning and what they suffered.
Your not alone on that I want to cry and laugh too.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on August 27, 2007, 06:38:41 PM
this is the best news ever....
at least now those poor children can be put to rest beside their family
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on August 27, 2007, 07:20:38 PM
Gosh, this is so exciting... it certainly puts an end to all the mysteries that have been surrounding the Romanov children!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 27, 2007, 08:10:31 PM
http://www.laportadeltempo.com/Europa/eu_250502.htm (http://www.laportadeltempo.com/Europa/eu_250502.htm)  It in Italian, but the thought is clear.

"Boneses found to the situated one of the killing of the Zar.

Human rests have been found to situated where the last Zar of Russia and its family was killed in 1918.

Two of the children of the Zar Nicholas II thinks itself that the bones - two skeletons and a bone of the leg - could be that one of Aleksei Zarevich and Maria Zarevna, second how much filler Russian Tv REN.

Their bodies were not between those buried in were common, after that the Romanov family was killed from the Bolscevichi, as a result of the Russian Revolution of the previous year.

The Zar Nicholas II, its moglie Alexandra and three of its five children, Tatiana, Olga and Anastasia, was riseppelliti under tomba imperial in the Cathedral of Saint Peter and Paul to Saint Pietroburgo in 1998, with their doctor of family and three of their servitori.

But the bodies of the others two sons never have not been found.

The discovery has been carried out from the laborers to the job to Yekaterinburg, to 20 meters from the House of Ipatyev, the place in which the family of the Zar it was killed.

An orthodox Russian church, the Cathedral of the Salvatore of the Blood, currently is constructed on the situated one.



The boneses have been sended to a regional laboratory of scientific analyzes, and the first examinations suggest that the rests belong to a woman and a child.

This could correspond to the profile of Zarevna Maria and Zarevich Aleksei.

The archeologist Vladislav Svyatov, has reported to the REN Tv: “And' be found the fragment of a leg, presumablly human. And' possible that he can be connected to the skull, but it has not been still confirmed. Before that the diggings are capacities to term, it will be impossible to say it”.

A similar discovery had been made two years ago in the course of the diggings of the Ipatyev house.

To that time, one had believed that the bodies could be those of Zarevich and Zarevna, but successive examinations have shown that the boneses had been buried them before the killing of the family of the Zar.

“And' possible that features of a case to similare. But the fact is strengthened that someone has been buried here” says Svyatov.

The scientists have reported that the boneses found in the fossa common are with high probability those of the Zar Nicholas II and its family, but their identities ninth still have been established in conclusive way.

The Patriarch of the Orthodox Church of Russia, Alexei II, contests the authenticity of the ritrovamento, and refuses of officiare to the new funeral ceremony."
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 27, 2007, 08:58:15 PM
That is fasinating. But I think further proof is needed to establish the identity. After all, many died around that area.  :)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 27, 2007, 09:46:51 PM
Here is a video segment I found on youtube.com

As I have posted elsewhere about this clipping, it  offers a good summary of what was shown on the NTV and Vesti Russian TV news service over the weekend.

However caution must be used in reading into Viner's ridiculous comments. It was not so much the Yurovsky "note" that concerns the man, but his own pathetic claim that will be trashed into the Ural dustbin where it has always belonged. Viner deliberately ignores the fact that science has proven beyond doubt that the first lot of remains were indeed authentic.

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: EmmyLee on August 27, 2007, 11:07:41 PM
Here is a video segment I found on youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFbo4gOs0AE

Thank you. Irritating that they use a picture of Olga instead of Maria, though. Oh well.

Here's another from Reuters. I'm not sure if it's been posted yet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjnJNFAa9C4&NR=1
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: koloagirl on August 27, 2007, 11:20:59 PM

Aloha all!

While I am so happy that the children will be reunited with the rest of the family (on earth that is - I'm sure they are together in heaven already!) --- I am having feelings of sadness somewhat like I felt after the death of Princess Diana -- just a grayness and dull, depressed feeling.  How stupid, because I obviously knew these 2 had been killed -- and so long ago!  But yet I feel as if I am reading about them being killed yesterday.

Happy and sad -- quite a curious thing -- I've found myself really close to tears today over it -- and of course my husband thinks I'm just a nutter!

Anyone else experiencing these types of feelings?

Janet
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 27, 2007, 11:45:31 PM
Lets hope this is the real closure this time.  ???
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: lori_c on August 28, 2007, 01:11:23 AM
Gosh, this is so exciting... it certainly puts an end to all the mysteries that have been surrounding the Romanov children!
And truly a miracle.  I never thought I would see it in my lifetime. I felt I was lucky enough to be in the generation that found the Tsar and his family and what truly happened to them and I truly despaired when I learned that their were two bodies missing.  Whomever they were out of the 11 massacred in that cellar, certainly deserved better than the burial these poor skeletal remain got.

I hope and pray that DNA confirms what I already know in my heart, that these are the two Romonav children that we thought were lost to us forever.

Praise be to God in all things!

Lori
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 28, 2007, 02:13:12 AM
The excavation site courtesy of Russian Channel Four news service

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgsiteII.jpg)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on August 28, 2007, 03:32:03 AM
Well you are welcome to your opinion. A great many stronly disagree.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on August 28, 2007, 08:26:13 AM
I was going to mention that they used a photo of Olga instead of Marie or Anastasia.  They could have at least got their research right.

This only shows that what I said in another thread is true.

We here know the difference, and to us it matters, but to most of the world it is a casual bump in the news.  If TV programs can't at least get their research right, we have to be careful about believing other things they say as well.

I was surprised to hear that Yurovsky's note was "proven to be fake".  I don't think that is true.  Yurovsky may have been a liar in other areas, but I believe that this note has been proven to be factual.

dmitri,  I know that you are known to make droll, dry comments and most of the time you make me smile because after someone else has posted a long and passionate explanation of their thoughts, you come back with one line.  Proving that a few words can work as well as many. 

However, would you mind giving us an explanation of why you don't agree with the findings of this excavation?  Are you privy to information that others are not?  Do you know the researchers or are you in Yekaterinburg and watching all of this first hand?

Please let the rest of us know!     :-(
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on August 28, 2007, 08:32:53 AM
And one more thing about Yurovsky's note.

I went to KW to read it and when I got to the part about "poor old Mrs. Yurovsky"  Yakov's mother and what she went through after the Whites captured her.  And what the rest of his family went through as well.  I had to chuckle.

After what Yakov Yurovsky did to the mother (Alix) of the imperial children and to the rest of the "family", what was done to his mother and family pales in comparison.  It doesn't just pale, it becomes so faint as to be invisible.

How much he howls "injustice" to his family just because they were related to him.  How much more the injustice that Yurovsky visited on the Imperial Family because they were related to Nicholas II.

Makes you stop and think about perspective, doesn't it!   >:-(
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 28, 2007, 09:05:20 AM
Many have their doubts, awaiting the DNA testing, as they believe that only DNA can answer the question.  Now don't misunderstand me, as you all well know I am a staunch proponent of DNA testing. HOWEVER, I am also a staunch proponent of logic and reason.

So, here is what we know, for certain, pending the DNA results:

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  I can't find Last Act just now, but in there, one of the accounts clearly states that Alexei was the only body still wearing any clothes, as he had no jewels on him.  He was wearing a sailor's undershirt from the Standart.

For anyone with doubts, pending the DNA testing, I respect your position as I do clearly understand it, BUT, I would love for someone of that postion to please demonstrate some logic or reason WHY these remains could be somebody ELSE than Alexei and the missing Grand Duchess.

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 28, 2007, 09:19:15 AM
Thanks for posting this, Rob. Of course all this sounds convincing and consistent with what we hope will be the "right" remains.

But the DNA results would make or break it all. If the DNA comes back "negative" then none of the above would matter... If it comes back "positive", then it would confirm it 100%. This is why I think the prudent thing to do would be to hold out for the results until we can say with 100% certainty that the remains of the two missing imperial children have been found.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 28, 2007, 11:03:48 AM
I agree 100% with FA. Bravo!

It's possible the remains are Alexei and Maria (I think it Maria, without a doubt), who else would they be buried close to that of the mass grave of the Romanovs and the four loyal persons?

This NEW discovery is the true final chapter of the Romanovs.


 in my opinion it "90/100%" that is really our dear Heir and missing grand duchess.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lanie on August 28, 2007, 01:52:13 PM
Thanks Rob. People need to listen to logic more often, don't they?

Also thanks to the wonderful Margarita who's been posting all of this for us. :)  :-*
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: LarissaAnn on August 28, 2007, 02:45:30 PM
I agree, the odds are just astronomical that it's them.  I can hardly believe this is finally it, it almost seems surreal. 
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 28, 2007, 02:46:57 PM
I agree, the odds are just astronomical that it's them. 

Well, I don't know about "astronomical", but I would say "high".
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 28, 2007, 03:28:04 PM
Thanks for posting this, Rob. Of course all this sounds convincing and consistent with what we hope will be the "right" remains.

But the DNA results would make or break it all. If the DNA comes back "negative" then none of the above would matter... If it comes back "positive", then it would confirm it 100%. This is why I think the prudent thing to do would be to hold out for the results until we can say with 100% certainty that the remains of the two missing imperial children have been found.

Just to be especially clear about something here.  I am NOT advocating that we don't need to bother with the DNA tests.  I believe 110% that we must do the DNA testing.  My point was more addressed to those who seem to be criticising or chiding our current position about the remains.

Bob has had lengthy discussions with people well and closely connected to these events, and Bob is convinced, as are those he has discussed these findings with, that for the reasons I stated above the likelihood and probability the remains are the missing Imperial children are quite "high".

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 28, 2007, 03:39:15 PM
Thanks for posting this, Rob. Of course all this sounds convincing and consistent with what we hope will be the "right" remains.

But the DNA results would make or break it all. If the DNA comes back "negative" then none of the above would matter... If it comes back "positive", then it would confirm it 100%. This is why I think the prudent thing to do would be to hold out for the results until we can say with 100% certainty that the remains of the two missing imperial children have been found.

Just to be especially clear about something here.  I am NOT advocating that we don't need to bother with the DNA tests.  I believe 110% that we must do the DNA testing.  My point was more addressed to those who seem to be criticising or chiding our current position about the remains.

Bob has had lengthy discussions with people well and closely connected to these events, and Bob is convinced, as are those he has discussed these findings with, that for the reasons I stated above the likelihood and probability the remains are the missing Imperial children are quite "high".

Yes, I understand. But everyone here should just be aware that the DNA results is what's going to give us the final answer, that's all. 
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Silja on August 28, 2007, 04:51:45 PM
I hope the DNA will also be made available to foreign laboratories to double check the results. I would always feel "safer" with "disinterested" results. In the case of Louis XVII's heart, the DNA was tested not by the French but by  German and  Belgian labs.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 28, 2007, 08:08:37 PM
Well...The Japanese test results revealed that the skull of Nicholas II is not him. That put a dent in the absoluteness of the findings.  ???
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 28, 2007, 08:34:59 PM
Well...The Japanese test results revealed that the skull of Nicholas II is not him.

Which Japanese tests allegedly revealed such a presumption on your part?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 28, 2007, 08:38:37 PM
I must second Belochka's request.  The tests on the known remains of Nicholas' brother George were an EXACT match, even down to a unique single hapolytype mutation, which was considered 100% conclusive proof it was Nicholas.

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 28, 2007, 09:28:26 PM
Not according to the Japanese test, which is supported by the Russian Orthodox Church. I do not say that I believe it totally, but it did put a dent in its "absoluteness". One can close their eyes to the obvious, but we are discussing facts here. I sincerely hope that this time, there would not be a repeat of that.  :)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: charley on August 28, 2007, 09:36:40 PM
Bob has had lengthy discussions with people well and closely connected to these events, and Bob is convinced, as are those he has discussed these findings with, that for the reasons I stated above the likelihood and probability the remains are the missing Imperial children are quite "high".

Did these people well and closely connected to these events tell him ahead of time? I am just wondering what his involvement in all of this is. I can't imagine anyone can call up these people who are researching this and question them. How did he know who to call in Russia, or did they call him? It is all very interesting. The DNA test will say it is them.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 28, 2007, 09:45:56 PM
Bob's discussions were after the initial report was released to the press.

I'm still waiting to see the citation to this unknown "Japanese DNA" test being referred to.

If you mean the blood stain from the Otsu incident, the chain of custody for the relic indicates substantial contamination from handling over the years. It is not a reliable source of information.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 28, 2007, 09:52:57 PM
Not according to the Japanese test, which is supported by the Russian Orthodox Church. I do not say that I believe it totally, but it did put a dent in its "absoluteness". One can close their eyes to the obvious, but we are discussing facts here. I sincerely hope that this time, there would not be a repeat of that.  :)

Eric you have failed to reveal which Japanese tests you are refering to which as you claim "revealed that the skull of Nicholas II is not him".

Indeed one can close their eyes after they have read what they failed to understand.

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 28, 2007, 09:56:39 PM
Bob's discussions were after the initial report was released to the press.

I'm still waiting to see the citation to this unknown "Japanese DNA" test being referred to.

If you mean the blood stain from the Otsu incident, the chain of custody for the relic indicates substantial contamination from handling over the years. It is not a reliable source of information.

Those tests were flawed and were never published in any peer reviewed scientific journals in either the Russian or English languages.

Furthermore there was the legal problem of "legitimate possession of biological material" by the Japanese investigator.

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 28, 2007, 10:12:49 PM
Also,

Which makes more logical sense? The DNA test that is performed on George Alexandrovich, the provenance of the sample is unquestionable as it came from his tomb under controlled circumstances, which when tested PRECISELY matched that of the then "putative" Nicholas II sample found in Ekaterinburg down to a UNIQUE mutation

or

The questionable blood stain which had been contaminated over the years by mis handling that "surprise" didn't match Nicholas II? 

If you mean another test Eric, please cite  the specific work or drop this spurious line of discussion.

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 28, 2007, 11:52:28 PM
Indeed I am not saying that I agree with it 100% yet the doubts lingers like there will always be people who thinks that Princess Diana was murdered. I am just making a point that I most sincerely hope the DNA test this time would be conclusive without the shadow of ANY doubt. I think you understand my logical reasoning here. As forum admin I think you should respect those who think differently than asking people to shut up (that is how I honestly feel here)   :o
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on August 29, 2007, 08:35:41 AM
Eric,

I believe that both FA and Belochka are saying that the DNA comparison with a provable and verifiable test source (Grand Duke George Alexandrovich) was 100% conclusive.

The Japanese test was done a sample that had been in Japan for over 100 years and had been kept under questionable circumstances and handled repeatedly by others.  After all after the Otsu incident and for almost a century, no one would ever have thought that keeping that blood stained cloth safe from contamination would matter.  Actually, I am surprised that is survived as long as it did.

The Russian Orthodox Church took an unusual stand in using that test to disprove the identity of the remains.  In any case, if one has three test results that match and one that doesn't, why would anyone accept that the three matching results were incorrect and the one non matching test was the correct answer.

That is like saying that if three school children add 2+2 and get 4 and one adds 2=2 and gets 5 that the one who got 5 is the correct one. !!  No doubt would enter any-one's mind that the three who got the answer 4 were wrong just because the other one got the answer 5.

8-)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lemur on August 29, 2007, 10:36:57 AM
Quote
I think you should respect those who think differently than asking people to shut up (that is how I honestly feel here)

How can anyone be expected to respect an opinion that has been officially proven wrong and reduced to a conspiracy theory? Reality check time...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on August 29, 2007, 11:18:35 AM
Lemur

I have looked back over several pages of posting and I can't find the quote you have used.

Who is telling whom to shut up??

Who's quote was that?

Thanks
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 12:19:05 PM
Lemur

I have looked back over several pages of posting and I can't find the quote you have used.

Who is telling whom to shut up??

Who's quote was that?

Thanks


Alixz, it was from this quote from Eric_Lowe:

Indeed I am not saying that I agree with it 100% yet the doubts lingers like there will always be people who thinks that Princess Diana was murdered. I am just making a point that I most sincerely hope the DNA test this time would be conclusive without the shadow of ANY doubt. I think you understand my logical reasoning here. As forum admin I think you should respect those who think differently than asking people to shut up (that is how I honestly feel here)   :o
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 12:31:38 PM
Eric, here is an excerpt from an article Margarita and I wrote last year, which discusses the Japanese results in detail. I hope this helps your understanding of this issue.

"In 1997 Professor Tatsuo Nagai apparently examined the Otsu handkerchief (Japanese museum relic) against the bone fragment presumed to belong to Nicholas II.[101] His examination occurred two years after Ivanov attempted to do the same but he decided against using a sample that was compromised through innocent handling (see Ivanov above) of the “relic” for at least a century. Since there is no mention of Nagai, or any of his results or of his experimental work in the Soloviev Commission 1998 Report, we must believe that Nagai conducted his assessment privately and not as an adjunct to the Russian government’s authorized forensic investigations. Nor were we able to locate any publications of Nagai’s results on the handkerchief during our extensive library searches.

The Imperial family was authenticated and buried but, Popov, after meeting Nagai at a conference, in direct contravention of the Procurator’s authority; suggested that Nagai collaborate with him to reassess the Imperial remains. This mutual agreement transpired soon after all the Soloviev investigations were completed.[102]  

For the scientific aspects of this study, the Nagai/Popov team analyzed the mtDNA sequence from a sample of hair, allegedly extracted from “Georgij [sic] Romanov”. They compared their results to those published by Ivanov in 1995, and observed “significant differences” at 13 positions: 320, 16093, 16126, 16169, 16223, 16278, 16294, 16296, 16298, 16325, 16327, 16356, and 16362. At all other positions their data matched Ivanov's profiles. They did not find C/T heteroplasmy at the position 16169, but did find it instead at 7 other positions: 16093, 16278, 16298, 16325, 16327, 16356, and 16362. They were unable to propose the cause for this discrepancy.
 
Overall, Nagai and Popov’s results make very little scientific sense, which may explain why they were never publicized and/or submitted for peer review for possible publication and translation in any international scientific journals that are accessible to the global scientific community. Such a standard expectation is the normal outcome for all legitimate scientific endeavors. It not only facilitates exposure of laboratory research conducted around the world, but promotes the evaluation of those results, especially if they may appear controversial. Essentially peer review is a technique that allows critical scrutiny of any investigator’s sampling, methodology and the conclusions reached, by a panel of experts in the field. Once the article is accepted for publication it then permits others to repeat or question the published results. We contend that such an evaluation would not have been in the best interest of Drs Nagai and Popov, for reasons, which will become more apparent in our discussions below.

What Nagai and Popov’s work actually revealed to us was that the samples they used were either contaminated with foreign DNA, (introduced by inappropriate handling of the tissue prior to any evaluation) - or that the samples belonged to an unknown individual. Furthermore, since there was no “chain of custody” described in their discussion, the question about the authenticity of their sample is open to doubt.

According to their abstract (# 118), [106] Nagai and Popov used “the usual methods” to examine mtDNA sequence from a sample believed to be Nicholas II’s perspiration stain (from his uniform), and from hair/nail/bone samples which belonged to Grand Duke George (Nicholas’s brother), as well as a blood sample from Tihon Kulikovskii (Nicholas’s and George’s nephew). Important note: scientists do not accept the vague expression “usual methods”. A complete description of the “Methodology” is normally mandatory. The reason for this information is very clear – it enables investigators critical information as to how a sample was processed in that laboratory. If there is a fundamental query, then the same methodology can be utilized by another laboratory to ensure repeatability of results.  The results Nagai obtained were reported by him to be “similar to those reported by Gill and Ivanov, except that heteroplasmy (C/T) was not found at the base position 16169”. Nagai seems to have attached great importance to the latter and goes on to state in the same abstract: “thus arises [sic] the question of whose bone was examined by Pater [sic] Gill et al. and Pavel L. Ivanov et al. Who is buried in the grave of the Peter and Paul Cathedral at [sic] St. Petersburg?”

One of the more disturbing aspects of this particular project was that nowhere in the abstract there was there any mention of the “7 heteroplasmies” or 13 other discrepancies in the mtDNA sequence previously “discovered” by Nagai and Popov in 1999!
(continued...)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 12:32:24 PM
Effectively, Nagai and Popov were not able to match their own previous results using the same hair sample, nor were they able to match their previous results to Tihon Kulikovskii’s mtDNA.  This should have alerted them that they had a problem with their analysis: either with the first (1999) or the second (2001) set of estimations. The hair sample allegedly removed from Grand Duke George offered contradictory results, and did not correlate with the mtDNA profiles of the Grand Duke, analyzed in the United States Armed Forces Institute of Pathology by Professor Ivanov. According to their 2001 results, the only discrepancy was that Nagai and Popov were unable to detect heteroplasmy at position 16169 during the course of their investigations. 

In Japan, Nagai received some hair samples from Popov (notably not from the legal Russian government custodian of the remains Vladimir Soloviev) and proceeded to extract mtDNA from the sample. The profile he obtained was matched against Ivanov’s published photographic mtDNA profiles, and was not directly compared in parallel with a real mtDNA profile, as would have been the accepted standard protocol.

The paper that Nagai and Popov published jointly in 1999 in a Japanese journal called “Igaku to Seibutsugaku”[103] was never translated into either English or Russian, which would have been prudent, since their results affected Russian and English speaking investigators. This data remains obscure since it was only published in Japanese hence is not readily searchable in scientific databases (which can only sense Latin characters). Therefore it also continues to be unavailable to a wider audience. We had this paper translated into English (with thanks to Mr. Junichi Hayashi) and will summarize it here.
The first thing that was pointed out to us by our Japanese translator was that there was a discrepancy between the Japanese title and the English translation. The Japanese title reads: “DNA identification of Georgij Romanov, a direct [genetic] elder brother of Nicholas II, the last Russian Tsar: Sequence of mitochondrial DNA” [See Figure 1]. The English title, significantly, does not use the term “elder brother”: “DNA identification of Georgij Romanovs, a direct brother of the Russian Tsar Nicolas II: Sequence of mitochondrial DNA.” In the Japanese language, unlike in English and most other languages, the terms for “younger brother” and “older brother” are completely different from each other. The Japanese title in this case specifically refers to the “elder brother”. In fact, the very first sentence states that: “Georgij [sic] Romanov was the real elder brother of the Russian Empire's last Tsar Nicholas II, but he had tuberculosis and was sick and weak, so his real younger brother Nicholas II became the Russian Tsar”.  This historic inaccuracy is a minor point indeed but it did set the tone of their investigations with such an unfortunate start.


There is more, if you are interested in reading it, Eric. The original article was published in European Royal History Journal and can also be found online: http://www.geocities.com/mushkah/Nagai.html

I hope this helps with your doubts about the Japanese results.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lisa on August 29, 2007, 03:10:50 PM
I have a question. Excuse me if it has been already posted...:-\
Why Sokolov didn't find the bodies  (of the 2 graves) ?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 03:15:53 PM
I have a question. Excuse me if it has been already posted...:-\
Why Sokolov didn't find the bodies  (of the 2 graves) ?

My guess is that at the time he didn't know where to look, and in any case thought that the bodies had been destroyed.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lisa on August 29, 2007, 03:22:35 PM
I remember that he found some ashes... But did he really dig, or as you said he considered that the bodies where destroyed and was satisfied by this?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 03:25:13 PM
I remember that he found some ashes... But did he really dig, or as you said he considered that the bodies where destroyed and was satisfied by this?

I think that's what he wrote in his report, that the bodies had been destroyed and only very little was left, such as the finger that he found... It seems that for some reason he didn't question that.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Lisa on August 29, 2007, 03:42:40 PM
Ok, thanks for reply!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 29, 2007, 06:53:52 PM
... There is more, if you are interested in reading it, Eric. The original article was published in European Royal History Journal and can also be found online: http://www.geocities.com/mushkah/Nagai.html

I hope this helps with your doubts about the Japanese results.


To help Eric on his voyage of discovery, our paper: "Romanov Imperial Bones Revisited: why does doubt remain about who is buried in the St. Petersburg Fortress?" which discusses in detail why Nagai's results were flawed; and the politics that surrounded his "investigation" has also recently been published in:

1. European Royal History J. Issue LIII, October, 2006 p 24-32 and
                                                         December, 2006, pp 7-11.

2. In Russian in “The Romanov Reading” Fifteenth Anniversary Edition, January, 2007, Edited by Dr. A. Avdonin, Ekaterinburg

« И снова об останках императорской семьи Романовых. Кто и для чего сеет  сомнения в подлинности останков, упокоенных в Петропавловском соборе?»

Маргарита Нелипа, Австралия
Хелен Азар, США. 

See: http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/Readings.html or http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/Nagai-Russian.html

Margarita


Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2007, 08:39:01 PM
I think I have been misunderstood again. My main point is that I hope the bones of the supposed 2 would be throughly checked in DNA. The democratic situation in Russia has worsen in recent times (the death of reporters and the accuracy of the news going back to USSR Times). It would not be too skeptical to think that it could be a plant. In fact the body of Misha was never found. His DNA would have been the same as those of Nicholas II and can be use to substitude. Anyway I adopt a wait and see attitude and wait untilll ALL the test comes back. In my heart though I hope for closure to this horrid tale.  :(
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2007, 09:07:20 PM
Eric,

You were not misunderstood. You very specifically referenced a Japanese test which you claim discredited the identification of the skull of Nicholas II.  It is most interesting to me that you now back pedal from your original more inflammatory statement and even more importantly still REFUSE to identify the study you cited despite many requests that you do so...

Well...The Japanese test results revealed that the skull of Nicholas II is not him. That put a dent in the absoluteness of the findings.  ???
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on August 29, 2007, 09:49:29 PM
I think I have been misunderstood again. My main point is that I hope the bones of the supposed 2 would be throughly checked in DNA. The democratic situation in Russia has worsen in recent times (the death of reporters and the accuracy of the news going back to USSR Times). It would not be too skeptical to think that it could be a plant. In fact the body of Misha was never found. His DNA would have been the same as those of Nicholas II and can be use to substitude. Anyway I adopt a wait and see attitude and wait untilll ALL the test comes back. In my heart though I hope for closure to this horrid tale.  :(

Hold on, do I misunderstand? You're saying they had Misha's body and used that DNA to falsify the body as Nicholas? Don't you think that's a  lot wilder than just the family being shot and buried in the forest? Where did they get the DNA for the women found with him? I think even some of the servants were tested with relatives. You're not one who believes in the AA intestine switch too are you?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 29, 2007, 09:59:22 PM
I am not back pedaling at all. If you read what I wrote carefully, you would have understood that I said I hope for the test this time to be more presise. The Japanese test did put doubts in the minds of SOME people (The Russian Orthodox Church surely felt that way-This fact you cannot deny !). That is what I wrote about doubts, then a whole tirade of emails about the tests. I think I will leave the discussion here since the majority is becoming more emotional than logical.  :(
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: BlueEyedDuchess on August 30, 2007, 02:18:34 AM
I myself am just thankful for the fact that perhaps these two children may have been found and that they will finally be able to rest in peace with the rest of their family.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2007, 04:30:32 AM
That is what I am saying. We haven't have all the facts or tests, but we already hoped to close the case.  :(
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 30, 2007, 06:37:35 AM
Moscow Procurator (criminalistics), Vladimir Soloviev at the excavation site

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Solovievatekaterinburgsite.jpg)

The three bullets of different calibre found at the site

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/ekaterinburgthreebullets.jpg)

An assortment of bone fragments

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgFindingsIII.jpg)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 30, 2007, 08:42:47 AM
Eric,

The only person being emotional here is YOU.  You stated that the Japanese test proved the skull was not Nicholas.  The FACT is that the test you cited was not a vailid test.  The original tests which showed the remains WERE Nicholas were valid.  Stop trying to imply the original tests were not valid (which is what you meant by your OWN admission.)

Look buddy, if you can't take the heat for what you write, then stay out of the kitchen.  Nobody is being emotional here, other than you with your petulant behavior.

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2007, 08:43:14 AM
That is what I am saying. We haven't have all the facts or tests, but we already hoped to close the case.  :(

Eric, I was the first to say that the case cannot be closed until the DNA tests are in. That's a very reasonable way to approach this. However, your posts imply to me that you feel that the DNA results can't be trusted, i.e. you bring up the example of the Japanese results and how they have put doubt on the autheticity of the original remains, even though it has been demonstrated that these Japanese tests are completely invalid. Now you are saying that you want to wait for the DNA results for these new remains, but if you doubt the original DNA results in the first place + you now feel that these remains could have been planted, then why would you want to wait for the DNA results in the first place? If this is a plant, then of course the DNA results will authenticate them - that's the whole point of a plant, isn't it? Which, as far as you are concerned, makes the DNA results comlpetely useless. So basically it sounds like you already made up your mind that even if the DNA results come back proving that these remains are authentic, you will still not believe them... Which makes me want to ask, what kind of proof would you require in order to accept all these remains as authentic? Obviously DNA doesn't cut it for you, what would? I seriously would like to know.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2007, 08:46:38 AM
Moscow Procurator (criminalistics), Vladimir Soloviev at the excavation site

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Solovievatekaterinburgsite.jpg)

The three bullets of different calibre found at the site

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/ekaterinburgthreebullets.jpg)

An assortment of bone fragments

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgFindingsIII.jpg)

Thanks for posting these, Margarita. I assume that the bullets match the bullets in the other grave?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on August 30, 2007, 12:28:33 PM
There are already some people who say they won't accept the DNA tests unless they're done outside of Russia, though the other ones were done outside Russia and they don't accept them either so would it make any difference how many tests are done? :P

Thanks Belochka for the amazing but sad pictures. Seeing just how little was left of the bodies it's no wonder those remains were so hard to find.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2007, 12:35:08 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgFindingsIII.jpg)
[/quote]

Is this really all that was found? In which case exactly how did they determine that the remains belonged to a male between the ages of 10-13 and a female aged 18-23, without forensic tests?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2007, 12:50:55 PM
There are already some people who say they won't accept the DNA tests unless they're done outside of Russia, though the other ones were done outside Russia and they don't accept them either so would it make any difference how many tests are done? :P

It doesn't matter where and how many DNA tests are done and by whom, there will always be people who won't accept them simply because they don't want to accept that they were mistaken all along.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mikeycoleman on August 30, 2007, 01:56:24 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgFindingsIII.jpg)

[/quote]

Any ideas what bone that is in the lower right side of the muslin?  It is very oddly shaped.  It kinda looks like a doll made of sticks.

Mikey
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2007, 02:09:12 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgFindingsIII.jpg)



Any ideas what bone that is in the lower right side of the muslin?  It is very oddly shaped.  It kinda looks like a doll made of sticks.

Mikey

It looks like part of the spine...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Arleen on August 30, 2007, 02:29:04 PM
Margarita you always post the most marvelous things!  Thank you so much.....

As a Physician what do you see as you look at these small fragments?  It is so very sad.

Arleen
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: loulia on August 30, 2007, 03:06:58 PM
Thank you so much for sharing with us this unexpected information!
It's so good to think that they will now be able to be in peace with their beloved familly and they will find a real grave, but in the same time it's so sad to loose any hope that they could have survive and live a better life. They were so innocent and pure, they deserve so so so much more better than a sad and painful dead and a burial in a forest.... :(
I can keep feeling sad about this lost hope...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mikeycoleman on August 30, 2007, 03:34:07 PM
I looked at this picture closer.  What do you think?

(http://a780.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/82/l_5fd91e81896b698e5ef8df7b85a8f8a3.jpg)

The blue fragment looks like a backbone.

The purple fragment looks like a pelvis (with tissue). (I thought this piece was 2 or three pieces until I looked at it closer)

The red fragment looks like a piece of skull.

The yellow fragmant looks like the upper portion of a long bone (femur?)

The green fragment loos like a nail.

The orange pieces don't look familiar.

What do you think?

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alexander_IV on August 30, 2007, 05:29:05 PM
I looked at this picture closer.  What do you think?

(http://a780.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/82/l_5fd91e81896b698e5ef8df7b85a8f8a3.jpg)

The blue fragment looks like a backbone.

The purple fragment looks like a pelvis (with tissue). (I thought this piece was 2 or three pieces until I looked at it closer)

The red fragment looks like a piece of skull.

The yellow fragmant looks like the upper portion of a long bone (femur?)

The green fragment loos like a nail.

The orange pieces don't look familiar.

What do you think?



I thought the red piece could be the illium of a pelvis or piece of a shoulderblade. Looks kinda big and flat to be part of a skull. Although it's hard to see on this picture. I have no idea about the scale of those bones.
And that purple piece doesn't look familiar at all. It looks so big and so odly shaped to be 1 piece. If I didn't know any better I'd say it's part of a tree's roots.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mikeycoleman on August 30, 2007, 05:42:52 PM
The red piece could be a shoulderblade!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Johnny on August 30, 2007, 05:56:54 PM
Guys,

I am curious to know whether English is Eric's native language or not?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alexander_IV on August 30, 2007, 06:48:19 PM
Guys,

I am curious to know whether English is Eric's native language or not?
If it's not, his English is quite good imo. Apart from the occasional spelling/verb conjugation error.
But does it matter? It wouldn't surprise me if more than half the AP members don't have English as their native language. It's only my 3rd language as well.
It could cause some misunderstandings more often though. People speaking or writing in another language could have more trouble with small nuances than 'natives' I guess.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Tania+ on August 30, 2007, 07:09:22 PM
Good point and well taken :). Welcome to the forum.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 30, 2007, 08:03:44 PM
How did my English got into the discussion...??? Really strange. I hope my reasoning is least considered logical.  ;D
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: lexi4 on August 30, 2007, 09:17:56 PM
Perhaps I have missed something, if so I apolgize. Other than Yurosvsky's note, what forensic evidence is there that the remains belong to Alexei and his sister?
Margarite,
Thank you for posting the pictures and the press releases.
Lexi
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mikeycoleman on August 30, 2007, 09:20:32 PM
Lexi, there isn't yet.  The evidence right now is all circumstantial.  Good circumstantial, but circumstantial none the less.

Mikey
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on August 30, 2007, 09:26:34 PM
Perhaps I have missed something, if so I apolgize. Other than Yurosvsky's note, what forensic evidence is there that the remains belong to Alexei and his sister?
Margarite,
Thank you for posting the pictures and the press releases.
Lexi

Lexi

There is SUBSTANIAL genuine evidence, non circumstantial, and I repeat them here for about the sixth time in the forum:

So, here is what we know, for certain, pending the DNA results:

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  From "Last Act of a Tragedy":
"G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: lexi4 on August 30, 2007, 09:43:29 PM
Thank you FA. Perhaps I should have read the thread closer and would have found that information. However, I do appreciate that you took the time to respond to my question.
Lexi
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mikeycoleman on August 30, 2007, 11:25:21 PM


Lexi

There is SUBSTANIAL genuine evidence, non circumstantial, and I repeat them here for about the sixth time in the forum:

So, here is what we know, for certain, pending the DNA results:

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  From "Last Act of a Tragedy":
"G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."
[/quote]

Okay, okay, okay, that is more than circumstantial evidence!  LOL  The DNA evidence, which hasn't been done yet, will make it definitive.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 31, 2007, 12:03:41 AM
I looked at this picture closer.  What do you think?

The blue fragment looks like a backbone.

The purple fragment looks like a pelvis (with tissue). (I thought this piece was 2 or three pieces until I looked at it closer)

The red fragment looks like a piece of skull.

The yellow fragmant looks like the upper portion of a long bone (femur?)

The green fragment loos like a nail.

The orange pieces don't look familiar.

What do you think?


I believe that it is best that we should allow the Russian forensic experts to conduct their thorough examination of the remains. They will present their conclusions at their earliest convenience.

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on August 31, 2007, 12:28:34 AM
All the remains are safely under protective custody in Ekaterinburg.

Until the forensic analyses are completed, as I understand it, no further news will be made available for a few months.

The images I have presented here were intended for the general interest of all Alexander Palace members. There will be no further images posted here for the time being.

I would like to extend a BIG thank you to all members on this Forum who have either taken the time to send me PM's or have expressed their personal thoughts here regarding the material I have presented.

Margarita Nelipa
   
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 31, 2007, 12:49:58 AM
Yes...We just have to wait and see.  :)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 31, 2007, 07:23:19 AM
Thank you so much Margarita!! It's fascinating and I am delighted they have been found. They can now be layed to rest with the rest of the Imperial Family.

Finally they are all reunited!!!!! And all those ridiculous survivor theories have proven, without a doubt, to be false!!!!!!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Johnny on August 31, 2007, 08:06:02 AM
Guys,

I am curious to know whether English is Eric's native language or not?
If it's not, his English is quite good imo. Apart from the occasional spelling/verb conjugation error.
But does it matter? It wouldn't surprise me if more than half the AP members don't have English as their native language. It's only my 3rd language as well.
It could cause some misunderstandings more often though. People speaking or writing in another language could have more trouble with small nuances than 'natives' I guess.

Of course it doesn't matter that many of the forum members are not native English speakers. On the contrary, that's one of the strongest aspects of this forum. But that's exactly my point, and both native English speakers and non should keep that in mind. I grew up in a household where 3 languages were  spoken. I added 4 more to it, so I think I know about problems that could arise. My aunt to this day translates everything directly from Russian and often is misunderstood even by her family.
Eric's English is quite good, but as I was reading through the exchange above between him and some of the other members I noticed that indeed some nuances seemed to be escaping the both sides, for example use of past tense instead of subjunctive or a slightly misaligned sentence structure which could sound too direct to a native English speakers's ear, etc.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on August 31, 2007, 10:36:43 AM
I believe that it is best that we should allow the Russian forensic experts to conduct their thorough examination of the remains. They will present their conclusions at their earliest convenience.
All:

I have not posted on this forum for awhile for reasons known only to a few. I must, however, ask a few of what I consider to be legitimate questions. I guess these questions would be most appropriately directed to Margarita, whose knowledge and opinions I do respect, due, in large part, to my correspondence with Helen A. and my readings of Margarita's work.

1. Margarita, all feelings of nationalism and patriotism aside, do you, in your heart of hearts, truly believe the technical and scientific expertise necessary to accurately identify these remains, to the greatest degree of certainty, exists in Russia today and, if yes, will it be brought to bear on the examination of these remains? I only ask because some doubt it. It's an important question no one has yet asked.

2. Margarita, do you think the Russian authorities will eventually allow an unhampered and independent examination of these remains outside of the Russian Federation?

3. Margarita, are you absolutely convinced the examination of these remains will be conducted without any "political agenda" and will the results be permitted to be announced without any interference from the Kremlin?

I ask these questions with all due respect because I have come to care about these issues deeply as have all of you reading this. Thank you for your time and attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 31, 2007, 12:19:49 PM
Wow. I know I'm late on getting the news.

So I was walking with my dad yesterday at the LACMA museum in Los Angeles, and all of a sudden he says: "You know that they found the missing Romanov children." I of course don't believe him and say that can't be possible. He said he was watching the news about it on our Russian satellite. I rush home and google it. Wow, it's just all so unreal. I can't believe after all these years of trying to figure this whole mystery out, they finally did it.

-Anastacia
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Merrique on August 31, 2007, 03:34:06 PM
This is definately some great news.I was absolutely shocked when I read about this a week ago.I honestly didn't think the missing children would be found in my lifetime.I am very much looking forward to hearing the DNA results when they are completed and revealed.
Knowing that in a short amount of time the Imperial Family will be reunited again makes for  joyous though bittersweet thoughts.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on August 31, 2007, 06:17:35 PM
About the Japanese DNA test.  In my opinion, it only proved that the blood on the fabric in Japan had not been carefully preserved, not that the skull found in the 1990s wasn't Nicholas.

To put it differently, it proved that the blood evidence was suspect, not that the skull was.

But for some reason, the Orthodox Church chose to believe the opposite.  I would still like to know why because as far as I can see the finding of the remains of the Romanovs has no effect on the Russian Orthodox Church.  The church didn't order their execution.  The church didn't try to hide the remains. So unless the church has something else to gain by denying that the remains have been found (conspiracy!!) then as good Christians and because Nicholas was the temporal head of the church, I would think that they would welcome the findings.

Does anyone know if there is a similar group attempting to find the remains of Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich and Bruce Johnson?  It would be hard as no one seems to have left any "notes" as Yurovsky did, but not impossible given that the original finding in Yekaterinburg in the 1970s was made without Yurovsky's note.


Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on August 31, 2007, 09:20:09 PM
Thank you so much Margarita!! It's fascinating and I am delighted they have been found. They can now be layed to rest with the rest of the Imperial Family.

Finally they are all reunited!!!!! And all those ridiculous survivor theories have proven, without a doubt, to be false!!!!!!


You know, I resolved that the Romanov mystery would always remain a mystery, but, apparently, it's not. I am so happy. This discovery is truly thrilling and I'm glad Alexei and his sister (which one?) are going to be buried with their parents, though it's somewhat sad that none of them survived the murder.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: DeAnochka on August 31, 2007, 10:02:13 PM
I think it would have been sad if any of them had to survive with the memory of their family's murder. I find peace in knowing that they died together.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on September 01, 2007, 06:03:58 AM
I believe that it is best that we should allow the Russian forensic experts to conduct their thorough examination of the remains. They will present their conclusions at their earliest convenience.

1. Margarita, all feelings of nationalism and patriotism aside, do you, in your heart of hearts, truly believe the technical and scientific expertise necessary to accurately identify these remains, to the greatest degree of certainty, exists in Russia today and, if yes, will it be brought to bear on the examination of these remains? I only ask because some doubt it. It's an important question no one has yet asked.

Hi Jim,

Yes I most certainly do. Russian forensic scientists are highly skilled capable professionals. It is only a minority of non scientists in the West who want to find fault with their expertise.

2. Margarita, do you think the Russian authorities will eventually allow an unhampered and independent examination of these remains outside of the Russian Federation?

Vladimir Soloviev, the Senior Moscow Procurator in the criminalistics department is presently drawing up Protocols, authorizations on similar lines as those he provided for with the first excavation samples. Soloviev was openly keen to use the expertise of accredited international DNA laboratories, and I believe that the same philosophy shall be applied here with this second case.

3. Margarita, are you absolutely convinced the examination of these remains will be conducted without any "political agenda" and will the results be permitted to be announced without any interference from the Kremlin?

Sincerely,

Jim Wilhelm


What possible "political agenda" could the Russian government have with this new Inquiry?  It was not the Kremlin that interfered in the previous work of the Soloviev Commission, but a small group of individuals (of Russian heritage), living abroad who attempted to disrupt the Inquiry at every step.

Best regards,

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: pandora on September 01, 2007, 07:58:15 AM
I'm new to this forum and am enjoying the variety of topics discussed - the news of the recovery of Alexei and Marie's remains is especially wonderful. The royal family deserves to rest in peace and as a whole, again.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 01, 2007, 08:38:55 AM
About the Japanese DNA test.  In my opinion, it only proved that the blood on the fabric in Japan had not been carefully preserved, not that the skull found in the 1990s wasn't Nicholas. To put it differently, it proved that the blood evidence was suspect, not that the skull was.

Yes, exactly...

But for some reason, the Orthodox Church chose to believe the opposite.  I would still like to know why because as far as I can see the finding of the remains of the Romanovs has no effect on the Russian Orthodox Church. 

I think this is a really good question, and for the life of me, I can't figure it out either. It makes no sense, but it seems that ROC is bent on not accepting these remains as authentic, at any cost! They seem to prefer to rely on the results of some quack scientists, who come up with extremely inconsistent theories and results, and who haven't been peer reviewed or published - as long as their data puts doubt on the authenticity of these remains - rather than accept legitimate results which have been demonstrated over and over to be reliable and have been published and peer reviewed. It's really strange...

Does anyone know if there is a similar group attempting to find the remains of Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich and Bruce Johnson?

I think it's "Brian" Johnson, like in AC/DC ;-)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: pandora on September 01, 2007, 05:09:10 PM
My understanding (and a very basic understanding I'll be the first to admit) of the Russian Orthodox Church's stance concerning the Imperial family's remains stems partly from it's total mistrust in the government. Various articles I've read have stressed this problem repeatedly.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 01, 2007, 06:24:21 PM
Please may we take the discussion of the Orthodox Church's position to a new thread? This is really OT to the topic at hand, the announcement from Ekaterinburg itself.

Thanks
FA
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Angie_H on September 01, 2007, 06:40:00 PM
I am now in Russia. This information was published in many Russian newspapers and as far as I have spoken to Russian historians, they belive, the remains really could belong to Alexei. The Russian newspapers say the girl, whose remains were found, is Maria.

It may sound quite strange, but no/one except for historians is really excited about the discovery. I was quite disappointed to find out the Russians are not so fussy about the last Imperial family as are people in Western Europe etc. Well, I am gonna go to Ekaterinburg next week, so I will see.
I always wondered about this. Is it because of the Communist line regarding the IF that Russians aren't as interested in them as people in the West? You can do a Google on the IF and find many sites dedicated to them, most in English, some in French and Spanish, but very rarely one in Russian. Are Americans considered freaky then with the way they are dedicated to certain eras in their own history? IE Civil War re-enactments?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on September 02, 2007, 02:13:49 AM
Quote
I always wondered about this. Is it because of the Communist line regarding the IF that Russians aren't as interested in them as people in the West? You can do a Google on the IF and find many sites dedicated to them, most in English, some in French and Spanish, but very rarely one in Russian. Are Americans considered freaky then with the way they are dedicated to certain eras in their own history? IE Civil War re-enactments?

I guess we could seem strange to others in that we do hold on to certain points in our history and "reenact" them.  It began as a tribute to the era and to those who fought, perished and/or were victorious.  It has become a hobby.  It is truly amazing to visit Gettysburg, PA during the first week of July and see the reenactors walking the street dressed in period costume.  Not only do the reenact the battle, they stay in costume for the whole four days.  And everyone one goes there are Civil War soldiers and ladies.

Of course as bloody a time as the American Civil War was, I can not imagine the Russian people reenacting their own even bloodier civil war.  Although they did reenact the storming of the Winter Palace for a movie.  And the Soviets would not be big on reenactments anyway.  It would have nothing for the advancement of the people to remember a time in their history that they were trying to write out and pretend didn't even exist.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Rodney_G. on September 02, 2007, 01:13:46 PM


  Annie,  or anyone

  In your reply 34, you referred to "new Yurovsky papers."  I wasn't aware of any "new" Yurovsky papers., i.e. , more recent than those which helped lead to the burial site. In other words, not coming to light in  the last more than thirty years.    Don't be afraid to offend my ignorance, but this "new" Yurovsky writing is "new" to me.

Also. I can't believe how moved I am by the discovery of Alexei and Marie's remains. I was watching BBC News on the 25th when a news crawl appeared at the bottom of the screen saying "Russian archeologists believe they have found ....."  and I thought ,"Yes , they've found them!" Sure enough it appears to be true and these two innocents can be properly buried with their beloved family. I know it's sentimental of me, but I 've always been saddened by the thought of Marie and Alexei cold and alone in Koptyaki Forest. I thank God and those fine, persistent scientists  and other investigators of all nationalities who have worked hard and finally made this wonderful, historic discovery.   
 
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on September 02, 2007, 02:39:41 PM
Yes, they did have access to new info Yurovsky writings no one ever had before. This question keeps coming up and I do hope that FA will make a sticky somewhere to answer this question in detail. The answers are in several places in several threads but still everyone keeps missing it and asking 'why now'. How about it FA?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: AGRBear on September 02, 2007, 03:44:59 PM
Yes, they did have access to new info Yurovsky writings no one ever had before. This question keeps coming up and I do hope that FA will make a sticky somewhere to answer this question in detail. The answers are in several places in several threads but still everyone keeps missing it and asking 'why now'. How about it FA?

Could you place a link so others may read what FA stated?

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 02, 2007, 03:49:56 PM
Imperial Childrens' Remains discovered FAQs

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10115.0.html
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 02, 2007, 08:55:36 PM
Lets hope the remains are what people claim them to be.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on September 02, 2007, 11:37:36 PM
The following is a recent public statement made by the Senior Procurator (criminalisics) of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Soloviev (Владимир Соловьёв):

«Будет работать большая группа экспертов. Это археологи, медики-криминалисты, генетики. Хотелось, чтобы это были именно останки царской семьи, чтобы их похоронить по-человечески».

"There will a large team of experts employed. These [will be] archeologists, medical-criminalists, geneticists. It would be desirable, that these shall be namely the remains of the Imperial Family, in order that they may be interred in a humane manner."

Translation by Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 03, 2007, 12:10:21 AM
Just the wording already chills me..."What is desirable that they be the remains..."What if they are not ? That would not be so desirable will it ?  >:(
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on September 03, 2007, 12:29:18 AM
Time for you to chill out Eric!

Kindly refrain from misinterpreting Soloviev's statement please. It benefits no one.

For the record Eric,

I fully concur with Soloviev's statement, it will indeed be desirable if the remains found are those of the Imperial Family.

Thank you
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 03, 2007, 09:07:42 AM
Eric,

agreed that you do need to "chill".  The specific syntax of the translation is very Russian and not what one would have written in English.  Insert "we very much hope that these remains are those of the Imperial Family, in order for us to give them their proper interrment." are you still upset? It says the same thing as Margarita's translation...

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on September 03, 2007, 02:54:41 PM
Just the wording already chills me..."What is desirable that they be the remains..."What if they are not ? That would not be so desirable will it ?  >:(

Who do you think/hope they are?!

Think about this: in all those years of digging and searching, not ONE other body of ANYONE else has been discovered besides the IF! Not from the revolution, Stalinist purge, serial killer, or anyone else, rich or poor, from any era!. So those woods aren't the 'dumping ground' or 'full of victims' that some like to say they are, or other bodies would be turning up all the time! There have never even been a 'false 'alarm' other than the one that was near the Ipatiev house and turned out to be centuries old, but never, ever in that forest. I know some want to believe this to cling to hope that they can go on believing in survivors, but reality is here! The IF has been found, a grave fitting the description and matching the location has been found with similar items inside with the other remains has been found, so the writing is on the wall.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on September 03, 2007, 06:54:02 PM
... Think about this: in all those years of digging and searching, not ONE other body of ANYONE else has been discovered besides the IF! Not from the revolution, Stalinist purge, serial killer, or anyone else, rich or poor, from any era!. So those woods aren't the 'dumping ground' or 'full of victims' that some like to say they are, or other bodies would be turning up all the time! There have never even been a 'false 'alarm' other than the one that was near the Ipatiev house and turned out to be centuries old, but never, ever in that forest. ...

Annie you are correct!

The Senior Moscow Procurator (criminalistics), Vladimir Soloviev, has recently affirmed (August, 27, 2007) that information received from the Russian Federation Security Bureau:

... there were no politicals or any other prisoners shot or buried in this region during the last century between the 1920's to the 1950's.

It was confirmed that there were in recent years, hundreds of animal bones found as can be expected in an forest.

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on September 03, 2007, 08:21:31 PM
It is all very interesting. A sad chapter is finally being brought to a close and the remains found can within a definite period of time be tested and respectfully buried.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2007, 04:46:38 AM
Lets hope it is and not people just trying to close a chapter.  ;)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on September 04, 2007, 03:09:28 PM
... Think about this: in all those years of digging and searching, not ONE other body of ANYONE else has been discovered besides the IF! Not from the revolution, Stalinist purge, serial killer, or anyone else, rich or poor, from any era!. So those woods aren't the 'dumping ground' or 'full of victims' that some like to say they are, or other bodies would be turning up all the time! There have never even been a 'false 'alarm' other than the one that was near the Ipatiev house and turned out to be centuries old, but never, ever in that forest. ...

Annie you are correct!

The Senior Moscow Procurator (criminalistics), Vladimir Soloviev, has recently affirmed (August, 27, 2007) that information received from the Russian Federation Security Bureau:

... there were no politicals or any other prisoners shot or buried in this region during the last century between the 1920's to the 1950's.

It was confirmed that there were in recent years, hundreds of animal bones found as can be expected in an forest.

Margarita

Thank you Margarita! I knew I'd never heard of any and this makes it official. The straws the  naysayers are grasping at are sinking fast!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Johnny on September 04, 2007, 05:58:40 PM
Lets hope it is and not people just trying to close a chapter.  ;)
Eric,
Both sides of my family were thrown out of Russian during the stalinist purges. My grandfather, a wealthy merchant and land owner died still in his 50s away from his family, penniless within only 3 years of being sent in exile somewhere in central Asia. My father who kept his dad company for those 3 years (my grandmother didn't want her husband to be alone) quite naturally developed quite a distrust toward Russia. Even already living in the US and several years after Perestroika he was very skeptic of the going-ons in that country. So as you can see I am not naive and do not believe everything that comes out of Russia. But I think in this case you are going a bit to far. If you read some of my earlier posts on this thread you'll see I even gave you the benefit of the doubt and tried to defend you. You did express your opinion and we did ours. I don't think any of your sarcastic comments, such as the one quoted above, are very nice. If you don't believe the forensic scientists, then why don't you just wait, and someday when the truth comes out you will have the last laugh. I pretty much think the truth has already come out, not that it will make a bit of difference for the ones who died. Whether the bones remianed in the forest or were burried in a fancy casket in SP is rather immaterial to them. It perhaps sounds a bit twisted what I just said, but intended to be a consolation for those who want to keep believeing that these are not the right bones.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 04, 2007, 06:50:47 PM
I have to say that Johnny is very much correct.  The former Soviet regime and the current Russian regime have never been the paragons of veracity, well even our own government is not blameless to be fair (WHAT weapons of mass destruction?).

That said, one must look at what possible GAIN would there be for the current Russian government to fabricate this? WHY would they go to the trouble and expense and risk exposure? Nobody would claim the throne, there is no money for any "survivor" descendant to get, it won't help press their claims to the North Pole, it won't solve Chechnya or put bread in anybody's mouth.  WHY would the Russians go through this excercise? I just don't get it. I'm not here to say the Russian government is totally "honest". However, there seems to be no gain for them to bother. This is the huge leap of (il)logic from those few left who claim this find is some sort of Russian fabrication, demanding "foreign" DNA tests be run, not because they think the US or UK or French or German labs are "better", but merely because they think the Russian tests are somehow "suspect" or rigged to produce a pre-determined conclusion. I just can't for the life of me see ANY gain to Russia from hoaxing these results. I can't see any logical evidence produced that supports the notion.

I'd love to hear from anyone who has real evidence to support WHY the Russians would rig the finds and the DNA tests...

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 04, 2007, 08:25:52 PM
I think the mystery has been going on for such a long time with various theories being thrown and more investigation being pointed. It is a much easier way for the Government to close the chapter by showing the bones and it would stop all speculation and further investation into the matter. One has to remember in the present regime, reporters are the largest causulties in Russia today.  :(
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 04, 2007, 08:32:48 PM
But WHY would the Russian government care about the speculation? THAT is the point. What possible difference does it make to Russia, Putin or the regime? THEY had nothing to do with the murders.  this all happened 90 years ago. It has nothing at all to do with the Putin government.

I'm sorry Eric but your theory is without the smallest amount of logic as support.

You can't just say "well the russians are untrustworthy" (which IS what you're saying), there just has to be something more to it.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on September 05, 2007, 01:23:27 AM
Lets hope it is and not people just trying to close a chapter.  ;)

I'm sorry Eric but your theory is without the smallest amount of logic as support.

You can't just say "well the russians are untrustworthy" (which IS what you're saying), there just has to be something more to it.

Eric your implication is highly repugnant and indefensible.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2007, 01:38:54 AM
According to you perhaps...Anway lets see the results of the tests first. I bet a lot of people (yourself included I persume) already deemed the test irrelevent. They think it IS them already.  ::)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on September 05, 2007, 03:04:35 AM
Time will tell. I doubt very much the Russians want egg all over their faces. None of this would have been released unless they had been pretty well sure. The DNA test will finish it all and finally this family can be all laid to rest. After all it has taken long enough hasn't it? Their souls though departed almost an eternity ago. Let their earthly remains rest in peace.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on September 05, 2007, 03:20:01 AM
Why all the contentiousness?

Either the bones are or are not the remains.  DNA will prove one way or the other.

There are too many scientists and historians involved for this to be a "hoax".  To many ways for a "hoax" to come unraveled.

I think that just the fact that 16 years has passed since the original finding shows that it is not a hoax.  A hoax could have been perpetrated within days of the original finding with much less speculation.

It took the release of Yurovsky's notes and the expertise of those who read them to finally find the right site.  With the circus atmosphere at the time of the murders and burial, I am not surprised that the first finding took 80 years and the second 90.  Yurovsky and his men were not prepared for what happened after they shot the family.  Murder is a messy business and they didn't seem to know that. Destruction of so many bodies is also a very messy business and they didn't seem to know that either.

However, Yurovsky managed to get the job done and then left the clues and directions in his memoir and notes.

Now scientists and historians have deciphered the clues and now the world has the remains and the answers to the "mystery of the Romanovs"

So unless one still supports a "claimant" then the story is over.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2007, 03:38:21 AM
Well I am sure the international scientists ??? would want to be a part of the action on the DNA. Will see... ???
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 05, 2007, 08:33:05 AM
Even if we humor this silly notion for a minute, I think that if the Russian government really wanted to do this, they wouldn't have waited 13 years. They would have thrown in the decoy bones in with the original bones and be done with it. Case closed. Or they at least would have done it a couple of years later, not waited over a decade...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 05, 2007, 09:08:53 AM
Eric,

Why would the "international scientists" want to "be part of the action"?  Again, your implication is logically one of two possibilities and no other.  Either you believe the Russian scientific community is "incapable" of producing reliable results and the "international scientists" are superior in their expertise OR you believe the Russian scientific community is "dishonest" and "participating in a governmental consipiracy" to fake the results.

These continued statements are nothing more than unsupported defamation and slander of the scientists involved.  Unless you produce some genuine evidence to support these allegations, any further similar statements by you will be removed without warning or notice and may lead to your suspension from the forum,

Put your money where your mouth is, PRODUCE SOME SHRED OF EVIDENCE, or speak not further on the subject.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mikeycoleman on September 05, 2007, 11:41:17 AM
Of course other scientists in other countries would want to be a part of the identification.  In 1991, Maples REQUESTED that he go over to Ekaterinburg with a team.  Ekaterinburg did not seek him out.  I believe Gill's involvement was similar.  Having multiple teams doing the same work is not saying that the Russians don't know what they are doing, and it is a good way to check the findings (DNA can be corrupted accidentally, ya know!)

That being said, I think the Russians should complete their investigation and THEN offer cross checking up to other countries.  That way there is no sense of compitition for the final result.

I'm not sure what Eric is saying that is tweaking people so much.  Everyone here is entitled to an opinion.  Nobody here, as far as I know, is going to influence the outcome of the investigation by talking.

Can't we just discuss our opinions on this great discovery without getting our knickers knotted?

Mikey
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 05, 2007, 11:46:30 AM
I think it's a shame Eric just doesn't listen for a change. :( These scientists have done a wonderful job and deserve praise and gratitude. Finally this fascinating family will be able to rest together in peace, like they deserve.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Janet_W. on September 05, 2007, 12:40:30 PM
Can't we just discuss our opinions on this great discovery without getting our knickers knotted?

The answer to that, of course, being a big . . . fat . . . NO!

(In the meantime, anyone specializing in knicker unknotting should be able to cash in big . . . )   
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 05, 2007, 02:48:25 PM
Of course other scientists in other countries would want to be a part of the identification.  In 1991, Maples REQUESTED that he go over to Ekaterinburg with a team.  Ekaterinburg did not seek him out.  I believe Gill's involvement was similar.  Having multiple teams doing the same work is not saying that the Russians don't know what they are doing, and it is a good way to check the findings (DNA can be corrupted accidentally, ya know!)

That being said, I think the Russians should complete their investigation and THEN offer cross checking up to other countries.  That way there is no sense of compitition for the final result.

I'm not sure what Eric is saying that is tweaking people so much.  Everyone here is entitled to an opinion.  Nobody here, as far as I know, is going to influence the outcome of the investigation by talking.

Can't we just discuss our opinions on this great discovery without getting our knickers knotted?

Mikey

Mikey,

What you suggested is reasonable, and of course the preferred way of things, that is what Helen means by peer review.  The problem that I have been having with Eric is that he is clearly saying that ONLY the non-Russian testing would be reliable and that the Russian testing would be meaningless.

I see nothing wrong with my insisting that he bring some evidence into the discussion to support his point of view.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mikeycoleman on September 05, 2007, 03:05:28 PM
Can't we just discuss our opinions on this great discovery without getting our knickers knotted?

The answer to that, of course, being a big . . . fat . . . NO!

(In the meantime, anyone specializing in knicker unknotting should be able to cash in big . . . )   

Hehehe

If this were 1991, I would agree that the Russian scientists findings would be suspect.  But a lot has happened since then, and they are very capable of doing an excellent job.

I do think other scientists should check the work though.  I hope they get the chance.  Honestly, I think the British should do it.

Mikey
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on September 05, 2007, 03:59:39 PM
Vladimir Soloviev, the Senior Moscow Procurator in the criminalistics department is presently drawing up Protocols, authorizations on similar lines as those he provided for with the first excavation samples. Soloviev was openly keen to use the expertise of accredited international DNA laboratories, and I believe that the same philosophy shall be applied here with this second case.
Please recall Margarita's response to my question asked earlier on in this thread. This is good, isn't it? What's wrong with this? Why can't we be satisfied with this? If someone says "this isn't good enough", well then that's bound to provoke a defensive response.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 05, 2007, 04:17:26 PM
Bravo Jim.  Spot on point. I'm still waiting for anyone to explain why the Russian testing "isn't good enough" to suit them.

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on September 05, 2007, 06:33:12 PM
Vladimir Soloviev, the Senior Moscow Procurator in the criminalistics department is presently drawing up Protocols, authorizations on similar lines as those he provided for with the first excavation samples. Soloviev was openly keen to use the expertise of accredited international DNA laboratories, and I believe that the same philosophy shall be applied here with this second case.
Please recall Margarita's response to my question asked earlier on in this thread. This is good, isn't it? What's wrong with this? Why can't we be satisfied with this? If someone says "this isn't good enough", well then that's bound to provoke a defensive response.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA

It needs to be recognized here that the Russian Forensic investigations shall be conducted with the highest degree of professionalism and without prejudice.

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 05, 2007, 06:40:05 PM


It needs to be recognized here that the Russian Forensic investigations shall be conducted with the highest degree of professionalism and without prejudice.

Margarita

Margarita,

I believe that most of us already recognized and understood this.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2007, 08:22:19 PM
I think it would be safer to say some of us...since we do not have a vote here. It is the current political situation that fans my worry. Quite a few jounalist shared my concern. However it is not fair either to comment until the final verdict is out. Then it would be fair to make the final judgement. I really don't mind being the only one to voice concern and doubt. It is just like the Iraq War, people then were very defensive about it, but now their minds began to change. I do welcome opposing views just as long as iy doesn't get personal and abusive. It is not a crime to disagree, that is how discussions should be done.  ???
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 05, 2007, 08:29:54 PM
Actually Eric, NO, this is not how discussion is done, huh.  Genuine discussion is where people offer evidence or proof to back up their position, not just blanket general statements without anything to back them up.

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Silja on September 09, 2007, 12:01:42 PM

I'm not sure what Eric is saying that is tweaking people so much.  Everyone here is entitled to an opinion.  Nobody here, as far as I know, is going to influence the outcome of the investigation by talking.

Nor am I. I think nobody thought it a defamation of the French when Louis XVII's heart was tested by the Germans and Belgians. In any case, I, too, would want a testing of at least two independent labs to be entirely satisfied with the results.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on September 09, 2007, 05:56:10 PM

I'm not sure what Eric is saying that is tweaking people so much.  Everyone here is entitled to an opinion.  Nobody here, as far as I know, is going to influence the outcome of the investigation by talking.

Nor am I. I think nobody thought it a defamation of the French when Louis XVII's heart was tested by the Germans and Belgians. In any case, I, too, would want a testing of at least two independent labs to be entirely satisfied with the results.

Even Howard K. Stern didn't complain that Larry Birkhead switched the DNA results, nor have any desperate guys on 'who the baby's daddy' shows, and that directly affects their lives! This is why I cannot fathom why AA supporters are always so quick to accuse of tampering. How would anyone do it and why would they want to? It's become silly and irrational, as well as a personal attack on the integrity of all scientists and officials involved.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 09, 2007, 09:00:34 PM
Annie,

For that crowd, it's already a foregone conclusion.  They have NO recourse but to assert the entire affair is some conspiracy.  It is nothing more than the last desperate straws which can be clutched in the face of overwhelming reality.  They have such a maniacal need to hold on to what they had believed that the ludicrous is the only means left to sustain them.

It is already brewing, there are those on the internet who have already condemned the tests as fake and fraudulent before they have even been done. Its sad, pathetic really, but then as the foremost DNA expert in Texas told me "There are those who believe the Earth is flat, and Man never went to the Moon." Elvis lives, the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by the US to start the war in Iraq, yadda yadda yadda.

FA
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Belochka on September 10, 2007, 12:36:19 AM
... It is already brewing, there are those on the internet who have already condemned the tests as fake and fraudulent before they have even been done. Its sad, pathetic really, ...

FA

The really pathetic issue is that those minority views on the internet are condeming not just the quality and professionalism of Russian medical science but also question the integrity of the Procurator himself, with their pre-determined assumptions based on nothing but their home-spun prejudices.

Margarita
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on September 10, 2007, 06:41:23 AM
I agree totally Margarita. These people will never be satisfied. I can't wait for the DNA to be revealed as the vast majority of people will accept it and the others will remain on the fringe doing what they have always done - being in total denial of reality.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: AGRBear on September 10, 2007, 11:06:00 AM
I thought this articles PLAYING POLITICS WITH THE ROMANOVS   By YURI ZARAKHOVICH  Tue Aug 28, 12:50 AM ET in the TIMES  was interesting:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070828/wl_time/playingpoliticswiththeromanovs

AGRBear
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on September 10, 2007, 03:15:51 PM
Nice story - but how much of it checks out?

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mr_harrison75 on September 10, 2007, 04:47:08 PM
I agree. They are still attacking the DNA results made on the Romanovs buried in 1998, so...
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on September 10, 2007, 11:27:05 PM
Well the DNA tests on the latest remains will solve all of this once and for all. There is no doubt about the existing remains of Nicholas II, Alexandra Feodorovna and the three daughters and the servants murdered in Ekaterinburg. These have been proved.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: mikeycoleman on September 11, 2007, 11:29:18 AM
No doubt to most people, dmitri.  There are still some fringe lunatics who think otherwise.

Mikey
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: AGRBear on September 11, 2007, 02:59:51 PM
I agree. They are still attacking the DNA results made on the Romanovs buried in 1998, so...

Are you referring to the reporter's article in the TIMES  mag.?

I thought this articles PLAYING POLITICS WITH THE ROMANOVS   By YURI ZARAKHOVICH  Tue Aug 28, 12:50 AM ET in the TIMES  was interesting:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20070828/wl_time/playingpoliticswiththeromanovs

AGRBear

Here is a link which presents a number of articles Zarakhovich has written.  I've not had the time to read any of the others but see from the sheer numbers of articles that  he's not a newbie  reporting  on Russian politics: 

http://www.magportal.com/c/soc/reg/eur/ukr/old.php3/3

Since I'm not into  present day Russian politics,  I  need to ask:  Does Zarakhovich have a reputation  which we should be aware because I didn't pick up any  opinions that he was the one  questioning the old DNA tests or  the new ones occuring  in Ekaterinburg?   To me,  he was just reporting information.   So,  to those in the know,  was his information accurate, or,  was it   inaccurate and misleading?

And,  no,  I don't know the answer,  if I did,  I wouldn't be asking.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on September 11, 2007, 07:02:44 PM
Roll on the results of the DNA tests.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Annie on September 11, 2007, 07:44:44 PM
Another thing I was thinking of, besides that no other bodies have been found out there besides the IF, is that the Bolsheviks wouldn't have gone to so much trouble to hide, rehide and try to conceal a grave of some 'merchants.' Most non famous people were just left where they were shot, or maybe put in a mass grave of an entire town. The fact that they were so painstakingly disguised and hidden is another sign they were the IF (besides the DNA of course!)
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: lori_c on September 12, 2007, 02:13:03 PM
Speaking of burial, should DNA prove (and IMO it will) that these are the missing remains of the Imperial Children, Certainly they too would be buried in St. Petersburg?  Any speculation on whether Ekaterinburg will try to hold them as they did in 1991. Any thoughts?
And if they are the Imperial Children, would there be a different ceremony considering they are considered canonised?  Forgive my ignorance, but I did not know where else to post this question.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 12, 2007, 03:15:30 PM
lori c:

This has has been answered already, in the link at the top of every page in the news section.  Yes, if these remains are shown by the forensic testing to be the missing Imperial Children, steps will be taken to inter them along with the rest of the family.  You can go to the thread to read the full press release on the subject.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: lori_c on September 12, 2007, 03:22:39 PM
Forgive my ignorance and sorry I didn't see it.  But thank you so much FA for kindly answering my question. I will be more vigilant in the future!

Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Johnny on September 13, 2007, 06:33:57 AM
It is already brewing, there are those on the internet who have already condemned the tests as fake and fraudulent before they have even been done. Its sad, pathetic really, but then as the foremost DNA expert in Texas told me "There are those who believe the Earth is flat, and Man never went to the Moon." Elvis lives, the 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by the US to start the war in Iraq, yadda yadda yadda.

FA

Sorry, I know it's off topic, but on that last one I haven't made up my mind yet. I am not saying it was the US government (or wasn't), but one thing I am sure about is that the truth of it is a lot more complex and disturbing than the simplistic rubbish we've been fed since 9/11.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on September 13, 2007, 09:23:50 AM
In my experience, and I am no expert on anything (just a Jack of all trades) their is no major incident (or minor for that matter) that hasn't engendered a conspiracy theory.

From Lincoln's assassination to the Romanov murder to Roswell to the Kennedy assassination and now 9/11.  I watched a show on 9/11 (as many did here in the US on Tuesday) and one expert had this to say about conspiracy theorists.  "They want to think that they know more about the subject than anyone else. It gives them a big ego boost to think that they have the power to divine some insight from all of the information that no one else has. It is not really about whether or not there was a conspiracy, but about the desire of the theorist to feel superior to everyone else."

I think it is also about the "ah ha!" aspect.  Conspiracy theorists want to be able to say "See, you thought you knew everything, but you were wrong."  Even those who are conspiracy theorists and also experts in their own fields of study are looking to be able to point out that "The Truth Is Out There".

I know that this is off topic and I apologize, but even though I know that the acknowledged interpretation of evident facts is sometimes hard to accept as the only interpretation, conspiracies can't possibly be there answer to every situation. And as much as I find it hard to trust anyone in any government position because I feel that they hold their own self interests before all others, that and their need to be re-elected, it doesn't seem possible that every situation began with a conspiracy to obfuscate.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: dmitri on September 13, 2007, 11:13:50 AM
It will be exciting to hear about the press release/conference once the DNA testing has been completed.
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Johnny on September 13, 2007, 02:14:53 PM
In my experience, and I am no expert on anything (just a Jack of all trades) their is no major incident (or minor for that matter) that hasn't engendered a conspiracy theory.

From Lincoln's assassination to the Romanov murder to Roswell to the Kennedy assassination and now 9/11.  I watched a show on 9/11 (as many did here in the US on Tuesday) and one expert had this to say about conspiracy theorists.  "They want to think that they know more about the subject than anyone else. It gives them a big ego boost to think that they have the power to divine some insight from all of the information that no one else has. It is not really about whether or not there was a conspiracy, but about the desire of the theorist to feel superior to everyone else."

I think it is also about the "ah ha!" aspect.  Conspiracy theorists want to be able to say "See, you thought you knew everything, but you were wrong."  Even those who are conspiracy theorists and also experts in their own fields of study are looking to be able to point out that "The Truth Is Out There".

I know that this is off topic and I apologize, but even though I know that the acknowledged interpretation of evident facts is sometimes hard to accept as the only interpretation, conspiracies can't possibly be there answer to every situation. And as much as I find it hard to trust anyone in any government position because I feel that they hold their own self interests before all others, that and their need to be re-elected, it doesn't seem possible that every situation began with a conspiracy to obfuscate.
Well, I certainly do not fit the description given by that so called expert! And you are right in saying that "it doesn't seem possible that every situation began with a conspiracy to obfuscate". I even go further and say that the big majority of all situations don't start and will never qualify as conspiracies. However, that doesn't mean that conspiracies do not exist. Dismissing them off hand as yadda-yadda is as unwise as being paranoid about everything that happens.
BTW, if murdering the Imperial Family ordered through a secret telegram direct from Moscow and then keeping the crime a secret from the entire nation for 80 years is not a conspiracy, then what is?
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on September 13, 2007, 03:32:04 PM
It will be exciting to hear about the press release/conference once the DNA testing has been completed.

With FA's permission, I have a question.  It's a hypothetical question (hyopthetical in that is possible), but it's relevant and I think it begs an answer.  Please consider this.  What if...an announcement were to come from Russia from a credible source (e.g., SEARCH) to the effect that all testing and re-testing had been completed and is was determined that these recently discovered remains could not possibly be those of anyone in the IF?  Would you believe that?  Please advise.  Thank you.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 13, 2007, 03:40:58 PM
If the DNA testing was done by a capable forensic lab, such as the ones said to be doing the work in Russia (SEARCH would not be doing the DNA analysis), the forensic laboratories could sequence enough DNA showing reliably no source of contamination, the results peer reviewed, and showed that there was no possible genetic relation to the IF, then of course we would accept the results,with great disappointment, but we would accept them.


FA
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on September 13, 2007, 04:03:50 PM
If the DNA testing was done by a capable forensic lab, such as the ones said to be doing the work in Russia (SEARCH would not be doing the DNA analysis), the forensic laboratories could sequence enough DNA showing reliably no source of contamination, the results peer reviewed, and showed that there was no possible genetic relation to the IF, then of course we would accept the results,with great disappointment, but we would accept them.


FA

Rob:

Thank you kindly.

Jim
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Alixz on September 14, 2007, 07:21:57 AM
In my experience, and I am no expert on anything (just a Jack of all trades) their is no major incident (or minor for that matter) that hasn't engendered a conspiracy theory.

From Lincoln's assassination to the Romanov murder to Roswell to the Kennedy assassination and now 9/11.  I watched a show on 9/11 (as many did here in the US on Tuesday) and one expert had this to say about conspiracy theorists.  "They want to think that they know more about the subject than anyone else. It gives them a big ego boost to think that they have the power to divine some insight from all of the information that no one else has. It is not really about whether or not there was a conspiracy, but about the desire of the theorist to feel superior to everyone else."

I think it is also about the "ah ha!" aspect.  Conspiracy theorists want to be able to say "See, you thought you knew everything, but you were wrong."  Even those who are conspiracy theorists and also experts in their own fields of study are looking to be able to point out that "The Truth Is Out There".

I know that this is off topic and I apologize, but even though I know that the acknowledged interpretation of evident facts is sometimes hard to accept as the only interpretation, conspiracies can't possibly be there answer to every situation. And as much as I find it hard to trust anyone in any government position because I feel that they hold their own self interests before all others, that and their need to be re-elected, it doesn't seem possible that every situation began with a conspiracy to obfuscate.
Well, I certainly do not fit the description given by that so called expert! And you are right in saying that "it doesn't seem possible that every situation began with a conspiracy to obfuscate". I even go further and say that the big majority of all situations don't start and will never qualify as conspiracies. However, that doesn't mean that conspiracies do not exist. Dismissing them off hand as yadda-yadda is as unwise as being paranoid about everything that happens.
BTW, if murdering the Imperial Family ordered through a secret telegram direct from Moscow and then keeping the crime a secret from the entire nation for 80 years is not a conspiracy, then what is?

Life in the USSR  :-(
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Johnny on September 14, 2007, 03:43:29 PM

Life in the USSR  :-(
LOL! That's hilarious!
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Arleen on September 15, 2007, 03:04:30 PM
Oh Lord, here we go again! 

Arleen
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Forum Admin on September 15, 2007, 03:08:24 PM
TOPIC people. TOPIC. Please.
FA
Title: Re: Formal Press Release from Ekaterinburg
Post by: Johnny on September 16, 2007, 03:47:59 PM
TOPIC people. TOPIC. Please.
FA
Sorry! I appologize.