Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on August 27, 2007, 07:34:29 AM

Title: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on August 27, 2007, 07:34:29 AM
Now the remains of Alexei and his unidentified sister have been found (I don't know whether I think it's Anastasia or Maria), does anyone know the reaction of the die hard AA was AN supporters, plus supporters who believed in an Alexei claimant, particularly those who wrote books, articles, etc about the case? I'm thinking particularly of Peter Kurth and J Kendrick as being the most prominent I know of, but I know there are others.

I'm most interested in AA and I would love to know believers' take on the discoveries and whether they have any light to shed on how AA managed to be so convincing now the real truth is out. These are the people who met AA and spoke with her, who were taken in by her and have access to all of the evidence in the case, and now we all know for sure that there were no survivors, it would be interesting to look at the case from the other way around - looking backwards from the truth to see how it was pulled off rather than there still being this insistence that there could be a possibility of it being true.

Any info on this would be gratefully appreciated.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Lemur on August 27, 2007, 09:46:12 AM
Quote
looking backwards from the truth to see how it was pulled off rather than there still being this insistence that there could be a possibility of it being true.

This is what many on this forum have tried to do for a long time but were never able to because people still kept coming in insisting she was AN. What will the believers say? I have serious doubt any of them will ever admit it or give up. They will only make new conspiracy theories. We can only wait and see if any post here. Good idea for a thread.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Amanda_Misha on August 27, 2007, 07:36:14 PM
Perhaps they would say that the rest are false or that it is a conspiracy ???
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Foxglove on August 27, 2007, 07:46:50 PM
To be frank- if AA supporters don't even believe the DNA tests, then I doubt most will believe that the bodies of Alexei and the unknown daughter have been found, either, even if DNA testing should prove positive results. They will continue to cling to their conspiracy theories, and will come up with more elaborate explanations about "chain of custody," Queen Elizabeth's hand in switching results, or mysterious men in black burying burned bones into the ground.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 27, 2007, 10:35:59 PM
To be frank- if AA supporters don't even believe the DNA tests, then I doubt most will believe that the bodies of Alexei and the unknown daughter have been found, either, even if DNA testing should prove positive results. They will continue to cling to their conspiracy theories, and will come up with more elaborate explanations about "chain of custody," Queen Elizabeth's hand in switching results, or mysterious men in black burying burned bones into the ground.

First of all, Foxglove, welcome to this forum.

I am also a newbie, so I am still learning.  I hope you will be tolerant of my ignorance.  But, how do you know how people will react (AA supporters or not) to this news?  I classify myself an agnostic on both sides - which is to say neutral.  I would feel more comfortable if there was DNA confirmation that these are not the bodies of countless other children that the Bolsheviks murdered.  But, hey, that's me!

I hope this news - either way - will be forthcoming.

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on August 27, 2007, 11:12:09 PM
Hmmmm......nice to see the header for this section of the forum changed before we even have a hint of any DNA results. Guess we know what the new orthodoxy is going to be.

Having said that, at first glance it looks like mystery finally solved & jolly good thing too.  For those interested in what line the new conspiracy theory might take I'd refer them to Russian exile reaction to news of the arrests for the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - a friend (alas I did not get his name but he was based in London) said on the BBC last night something to the effect that it was all very convenient for the Russian Government who were experts at forging and fixing evidence.  Now all we have to do is think why the finding of the remains at this particular time is convenient for the Russian Government and we can start alleging rigged evidence etc.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 27, 2007, 11:34:47 PM
Please note that the section change was not made by me. While I have agreed not to discuss the discovery any further, I think I can say that the management of the Forum believes the missing remains have been located.

However, and this is important, I am still moderating this section and I am not at all about "orthodoxy".
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Belochka on August 28, 2007, 12:06:39 AM
...   For those interested in what line the new conspiracy theory might take I'd refer them to Russian exile reaction to news of the arrests for the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - a friend (alas I did not get his name but he was based in London) said on the BBC last night something to the effect that it was all very convenient for the Russian Government who were experts at forging and fixing evidence.  Now all we have to do is think why the finding of the remains at this particular time is convenient for the Russian Government and we can start alleging rigged evidence etc.

Phil Tomaselli

What a silly idea the BBC segment sprung on its audience. One could attach all kinds of silly conspiracies to specific world events and then attempt to convince their audience that it was plausible.

Margarita   
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 28, 2007, 03:15:26 AM
Exactly what I wondered.  Guess we'll have to wait until anything is determined about the remains and then see what updates Peter Kurth makes to his website.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Foxglove on August 28, 2007, 03:35:10 AM
To be frank- if AA supporters don't even believe the DNA tests, then I doubt most will believe that the bodies of Alexei and the unknown daughter have been found, either, even if DNA testing should prove positive results. They will continue to cling to their conspiracy theories, and will come up with more elaborate explanations about "chain of custody," Queen Elizabeth's hand in switching results, or mysterious men in black burying burned bones into the ground.

First of all, Foxglove, welcome to this forum.

I am also a newbie, so I am still learning.  I hope you will be tolerant of my ignorance.  But, how do you know how people will react (AA supporters or not) to this news?  I classify myself an agnostic on both sides - which is to say neutral.  I would feel more comfortable if there was DNA confirmation that these are not the bodies of countless other children that the Bolsheviks murdered.  But, hey, that's me!

I hope this news - either way - will be forthcoming.

Sophie

Thank you for the welcome, Sophie. :) I was over on another forum and I got a taste of what some (not all) AA supporters think about this latest discovery. They are all ready very skeptical about these remains (which is normal, as I have some skepticism, too, until DNA results come in), but a few are all ready implying not-so-subtly that someone planted the remains there. As I previously mentioned, AA supporters do not hold credence in the DNA results on AA, so how would this be different for them? If the results are positive, and these remains will prove to be the missing children, AA supporters will have to believe that the previous DNA testing on AA was also correct, and I guess in effect, stop being an AA supporter? If they continue to believe in AA, then by conclusion, they will disregard the new tests (should they be positive), and continue to explain away by using elaborate theories, which they have done in the past (as I have read many a times).
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 28, 2007, 05:17:54 AM
To be frank- if AA supporters don't even believe the DNA tests, then I doubt most will believe that the bodies of Alexei and the unknown daughter have been found, either, even if DNA testing should prove positive results. They will continue to cling to their conspiracy theories, and will come up with more elaborate explanations about "chain of custody," Queen Elizabeth's hand in switching results, or mysterious men in black burying burned bones into the ground.

First of all, Foxglove, welcome to this forum.

I am also a newbie, so I am still learning.  I hope you will be tolerant of my ignorance.  But, how do you know how people will react (AA supporters or not) to this news?  I classify myself an agnostic on both sides - which is to say neutral.  I would feel more comfortable if there was DNA confirmation that these are not the bodies of countless other children that the Bolsheviks murdered.  But, hey, that's me!

I hope this news - either way - will be forthcoming.

Sophie

Thank you for the welcome, Sophie. :) I was over on another forum and I got a taste of what some (not all) AA supporters think about this latest discovery. They are all ready very skeptical about these remains (which is normal, as I have some skepticism, too, until DNA results come in), but a few are all ready implying not-so-subtly that someone planted the remains there. As I previously mentioned, AA supporters do not hold credence in the DNA results on AA, so how would this be different for them? If the results are positive, and these remains will prove to be the missing children, AA supporters will have to believe that the previous DNA testing on AA was also correct, and I guess in effect, stop being an AA supporter? If they continue to believe in AA, then by conclusion, they will disregard the new tests (should they be positive), and continue to explain away by using elaborate theories, which they have done in the past (as I have read many a times).

Yes, Foxglove, you are right on many levels.  In all this, my heart goes out to the Romanov family.  For me, that is the bottomline.  I have lost nearly all the people I love in recent years and I cannot imagine the grief, despair and anger I would feel to have the loss faced by this family and then have to deal with people upon people masquerading as people I have lost.  The other thing I believe is that the Bolsheviks were ruthless killers and, in view of this, I doubt any one of the royal family survived their attack.  On the other hand, I would love to believe they had.  Particularly the children - who cannot, in my view, be blamed for anything the Tsar allegedly did.  I s'pose it is this hope that holds out.  This hope does not, however, extend to frauds and conmen.  In the Romanov's place, I would - at least figuratively speaking - happily shoot these people myself.  But I would still love to believe that Anastasia and Alexie escaped somehow.

Yes, I am a dreamer.
Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on August 28, 2007, 09:19:32 AM
Hmmmm......nice to see the header for this section of the forum changed before we even have a hint of any DNA results. Guess we know what the new orthodoxy is going to be.

Having said that, at first glance it looks like mystery finally solved & jolly good thing too.  For those interested in what line the new conspiracy theory might take I'd refer them to Russian exile reaction to news of the arrests for the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - a friend (alas I did not get his name but he was based in London) said on the BBC last night something to the effect that it was all very convenient for the Russian Government who were experts at forging and fixing evidence.  Now all we have to do is think why the finding of the remains at this particular time is convenient for the Russian Government and we can start alleging rigged evidence etc.

Phil Tomaselli

I posted this in another thread, it seems worth repeating here:

Many have their doubts, awaiting the DNA testing, as they believe that only DNA can answer the question.  Now don't misunderstand me, as you all well know I am a staunch proponent of DNA testing. HOWEVER, I am also a staunch proponent of logic and reason.

So, here is what we know, for certain, pending the DNA results:

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  From "Last Act of a Tragedy":
"G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

For anyone with doubts, pending the DNA testing, I respect your position as I do clearly understand it, BUT, I would love for someone of that postion to please demonstrate some logic or reason WHY these remains could be somebody ELSE than Alexei and the missing Grand Duchess.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Rachael89 on August 28, 2007, 01:09:59 PM
I use to beleive in a slim possibility of there being survivors, I even use to beleive in AA untill I began to see her as a sad, deranged woman whose real life must of obviously been so unbearable she had to adopt another - I had stopped truly beleving her story before I read about the new discovery. I posted about it here a few times but found I was hurt by how people shot me down in flames and ridiculed me every time. I cancelled my membership twice because I felt like I was hated for every time whatever I said was torn to shreds and titterred at. I later rejoined and simply determined to stop posting in the survivor forum and lately I have posted infrequently until I heard about the discovery of the remains. I didn't beleive in AA or other survivors to be contrary or stubborn, I wasn't mad, but because I was so unberably saddened by the thought that none of them could of survived I truly wanted to beleive that whilst there were still two bodies missing there remained a slight possibility one of them could of survived. Even if it was in retrospect a foolish thing to beleive in it seemed like a good hope to cling to at the time.

Now that the two bodies have been found, and unless it is proven otherwise by DNA tests I am convinced these are the bodies of Alexei and his sister, I am perfectly happy to accept that they all died together on July 17th 1918. Now I'm a bit older I am happy to know this as I now beleive it would of been crueller for one of them to have survived and lived alone rather than them all dying together as they did.

Rachael

P.S. I think Rachel meant by her question only high profile supporters of AA or survivors, but I wished to attempt to show how those who took the possibility of survivors seriously are not as idiotically stubborn or clinging as many people seem to beleive.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Alixz on August 28, 2007, 01:57:28 PM
Rachel,

I, as I have said may times in the couple of years I have been posting, always wanted to believe that there were survivors of the murders.

I began studying the Romanovs in 1964 when AA was still having her day in court.

I wanted to believe The Hunt for the Czar by Guy Richards.  In his book he mentions that "my dear Fox" was related to a Van Rensselaer who fought in the American Revolution.  I am related to a Van Rensselaer Lewis and I wanted more than you know for this "Fox" person to have rescued the Imperial Family and to be (in my dreams) somehow to be related to me.

Over the years many things happened including the finding of the big gave in the 1990s.  But when it was said that Anastasia and Alexis were not in the grave, hope springs eternal, and I still wanted to believe.

However, I am also a realist.  Yurovsky had no reason to lie about what was done on that night in 1918.  And now his words have been proven to be true.

Why now?  Who knows?  Why not years ago?  Again, who knows?  The Bolsheviks were nothing if not thorough in their elimination of the members of the Imperial Family whom they could reach in 1917 and 1918.

It would not make a lot of sense for them to have bungled this murder.  Although they did bungle the three days after the murder and the concealment of the bodies but then they were excellent murderers, just not excellent at hiding what they did.

So even though it tears at my heart, I see no other conclusion but that all of the members of the Imperial Family and their entourage have now been found.  Even without DNA, the compostion of the findings and the fact that they match Yurovsky's memo make it hard not to believe.  As FA has said.

However, I never truly believed that AA was AN.  She was too uncouth and unkempt and rude and plain nasty.  I know that Anastasia was said to be the "wag' of the family and had a "potty mouth", but I could never see the actions of AA as the actions of a true Russian Grand Duchess.

:-(


Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on August 28, 2007, 04:01:15 PM
Forum Admin

You make extremely cogent points.  As one who has always thought that the "official" story was probably pretty much correct (though having many quibbles over the details and a peculiar desire to be able to find a genuine survivor) I have to say that DNA seems to have become the be all and end all of any arguments, so perhaps we're allowed to fall back on it ourselves as a final escape clause.......

Still looks like the last two have been finally located though, and than heavens for that.

Well done (on the assumption the DNA pans out) to all involved.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Temperance on August 28, 2007, 04:06:08 PM
I didn't think there was anyone left who still believed that Anna Anderson was Anastasia until I found this forum. Granted the people who still believed the myth that the Tsar's youngest daughter survived are few and far between because most people are smart enough to understand that Anna Anderson was ruled out as Anastasia through DNA. I suspect there will always be a few crazies who won't accept the fact that the entire family died together almost 90 years ago. Maybe I am wrong though and the few remaining believers will finally accept the facts.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 28, 2007, 05:12:42 PM
Oh, indeed there still are "believers" and some of you who they are and where you can find their reactuions.  Ranging from out right denial to  merely "wait and see" for the definitive proof [dna I am assuming]. Much like folks here.  As FA as so well illustrated, the evidence presented so far is pretty convincing already.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on August 28, 2007, 05:28:39 PM
I agree with you 100% Robert. They are curious creatures to say the least.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Alexander_IV on August 28, 2007, 07:33:00 PM
Oh, indeed there still are "believers" and some of you who they are and where you can find their reactuions.  Ranging from out right denial to  merely "wait and see" for the definitive proof [dna I am assuming]. Much like folks here.  As FA as so well illustrated, the evidence presented so far is pretty convincing already.
I'm a "non-believer" and I'd also like to see the DNA results first though before being 100% sure they've been found.
Although with the evidence provided so far, there's little doubt left in my mind that they have indeed been found :)

Some of those believers will probably never be able to accept the truth. Some of them have been "believing" and even actively advertising claimants for decades so it would be really surprising if they stopped believing now imo.
I have no doubt that certain people, which I won't name, will keep persisting in their beliefs.
Anyway, that's their problem, not mine. When the DNA results confirm what seems extremely likely, a big part of the less fanatic "believers" will probably no longer be interested in what they have to say and then they can discuss their conspiracy stories and fairy tales amongst each other all they want for all I care.
People can believe in whatever they want to if it makes them feel better. As long as they don't bother me with it.

So live and let live I'd say :)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 28, 2007, 10:47:04 PM
Like Rachel, I have been afraid to say that I held up hope that there were survivors from that terrible day because it is a human thing to hope for. Who on earth would wish them all dead?  The response has been, at worse, one of abuse and recrimminations, and at best, pity.  In my view that is not a good way to win people over to your way of thinking.  The most reasonable people on this site have argued that the facts are compelling and that the reasonable man would conclude that Anastasia and her brother Alexie were murdered with their family and that this has been proven and that this would hold up in a court of law.  For me, that's a fine argument but this forum is not a court of law - at least, I don't think it is.  What is the point of a discussion board where people simply discuss what they understand as the facts in a self-congratulatory way?  In any case, the facts are never 100 per cent which opens up possibilities.  What's wrong with discussing these in a reasonable, non-abusive way?

Having said that, I think the Forum Administrator on this site has handled the differences of opinions in a very reasonable way and has made some very good points about the latest findings.  Of these, I find the first four points the most interesting.

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.

My question is (and accepting 1 and 2, based on logic) :  Knowing 4 and 3, why weren't the bodies found earlier?  70 metres isn't far.  Yurovsky made the location clear.  This doesn't make sense!

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: RichC on August 28, 2007, 11:32:25 PM
For those interested in what line the new conspiracy theory might take I'd refer them to Russian exile reaction to news of the arrests for the murder of Anna Politkovskaya - a friend (alas I did not get his name but he was based in London) said on the BBC last night something to the effect that it was all very convenient for the Russian Government who were experts at forging and fixing evidence. 

Phil Tomaselli

This statement is very unfair.  Dmitri A. Muratov, editor-in-chief of Novaya Gazeta is NOT a Russian exile living in the UK.  He was Anna Politkovakaya's editor; she worked for him.  It is Mr. Muratov who has denounced the news of the arrests as a "whitewash intended to deflect blame from those who had ordered the journalist’s death."

“Political interference is hindering the investigation,” Mr. Muratov told the New York Times. “The prosecutor general is acting not like a prosecutor general, but a politician who works at the instructions of the president.”

Your statement (and Belochka's follow-up) make it sound as if suspicion of the Russian government's motives in conducting the investigation was beneath contempt.  That's not fair.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 29, 2007, 03:25:23 AM
Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject.  I do feel a little silly now to have believed in survivors--on some level did even at the time--but I wanted to believe in that possibility or at least see it soundly disproven, not just attacked by people who didn't want to believe, and it's obvious many converts have been made here.  On the other hand, certainly it would be cruel for anyone to have survived such treatment and terrible memories, and then have their identity disputed.  May they all rest in peace together.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on August 29, 2007, 08:07:01 AM
I was directing this post at high profile supporters of survivor theories, those that put their theories out into the public domain. Not those individuals who have expressed doubts or wished for there to have been survivors. I used to be one of those myself, after all.

I won't be 100% satisfied with these latest findings until we get the DNA results, but circumstantially, it all adds up as far as I'm concerned. I can understand where those who have believed in survivors are coming from - before there were no bodies, there was a genuine possibility that an escape could have happened. An unlikely possibility, sure, but a possibility all the same.

In my experience, the younger the Romanov fan, the more likely they are to believe that there were survivors, simply for the romance factor. When I first came to find out about the Romanovs, I was around 10, and I believed because I couldn't handle the thought that innocent children had been killed. As I got older, that sentimental side didn't come into it as much.

I'm seriously interested in finding out how high profile supporters are going to back their way out of the hole they have made for themselves, if they agree that they need to back out, that is.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 29, 2007, 08:25:34 AM
Bravo, Rachel.  You are a good soul!  I hope we have a peaceful resolution to this and that the beautiful, gracious Anastasia and his imperial highness Alexei are finally allowed to rest in peace with their family.

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2007, 09:18:53 AM

3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.

My question is (and accepting 1 and 2, based on logic) :  Knowing 4 and 3, why weren't the bodies found earlier?  70 metres isn't far.  Yurovsky made the location clear.  This doesn't make sense!

Sophie

While 70 metres isn't "far" when one is undertaking a proper archaeological excavation it is a huge distance.  One doesn't go "poking around" with shovels or picks.  The soil is carefully removed under controlled circumstances a few centimetres at a time.  In fact, there has been a schedule of the areas of the site to be excavated, and this specific section has been on the 2007 dig calendar for about three years now.  So, it wasn't exactly a random stab in the dark nor overlooked.  The description by Yurovsky isn't "clear as a bell" in its language.  While I have not seen the original Russian text, certain words are left open to interpretation and the discovery site is now "clear" once we know where it was so can finally see what Yurovsky actually meant.

Allow an example.  "We went 100 paces away, by some birch trees and a big rock."   Well, the entire area is nothing but birch trees and big rocks.  Does this make sense?  I'm trying to keep things simple, so please don't everyone attack me about this detail, I made it up and its NOT what the Yurovsky statement said.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Lemur on August 29, 2007, 10:24:06 AM
Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject. 

You are right, Capt, and the problem I'm afraid has been that people here have been debunking possibilities without attacking anyone personally, but unfortunately some of the people were defensive.  They took it as 'cruelty' to be told that their position was incorrect, and as a 'personal attack' to be told that there were valid reasons why what they were saying and and believing wasn't true. I don't believe anyone has ever been 'attacked for their views', though views have been attacked, this is necessary to explain why they aren't true.  A lot of people incorrectly took it the wrong way when all the members were trying to was help them understand- just as you said. This is a discussion forum about history. When a new poster comes here asking if Anna Anderson was really Anastasia, they had to hear the answer, no. For some, that was some kind of 'attack', but for others, like you, it was useful and interesting information, which was the way it was intended.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Rachael89 on August 29, 2007, 11:23:25 AM
Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject.  I do feel a little silly now to have believed in survivors--on some level did even at the time--but I wanted to believe in that possibility or at least see it soundly disproven, not just attacked by people who didn't want to believe, and it's obvious many converts have been made here.  On the other hand, certainly it would be cruel for anyone to have survived such treatment and terrible memories, and then have their identity disputed.  May they all rest in peace together.

My experiences came quite a while ago, around a year or two  so I am sure things changed since but I haven't really checked to see I don't know. I think I just hated the fact that my views were ridiculed mercilessly, it was really a very childish, impulsive response but I remember feeling very hurt by how no one ever seemed to take what I said seriously. I understand why people dismissed my views so easily now, and I don't feel hurt about it anymore.

Rachael
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: TampaBay on August 29, 2007, 01:08:39 PM
I was directing this post at high profile supporters of survivor theories, those that put their theories out into the public domain. Not those individuals who have expressed doubts or wished for there to have been survivors. I used to be one of those myself, after all.

I won't be 100% satisfied with these latest findings until we get the DNA results, but circumstantially, it all adds up as far as I'm concerned. I can understand where those who have believed in survivors are coming from - before there were no bodies, there was a genuine possibility that an escape could have happened. An unlikely possibility, sure, but a possibility all the same.

In my experience, the younger the Romanov fan, the more likely they are to believe that there were survivors, simply for the romance factor. When I first came to find out about the Romanovs, I was around 10, and I believed because I couldn't handle the thought that innocent children had been killed. As I got older, that sentimental side didn't come into it as much.

I'm seriously interested in finding out how high profile supporters are going to back their way out of the hole they have made for themselves, if they agree that they need to back out, that is.

Rachel
xx

I suggest all Ally Pally Posters just throw them a rope and pull them up out of the hole if they want to come.  No need to say "I told you so".

TampaBay
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on August 29, 2007, 03:16:06 PM
I owe an apology to Dmitri A. Muratov and to RichC and to forum members for suggesting that Dmitri A. Muratov was a Russian exile in London - I can only plead that it was only the reference to the duplicity of the Russian Government that caused me to give the item my full attention.

Having said that, the fact that the Russian Government can be accused of such gross duplicity without it being obviously ridiculous suggests to me that they will all too easily be accused of rigging these findings by those keen to suggest a fraud.

Do not forget that there are people who post on this board who think that MI5 murdered Princess Diana.........people who can barely spell MI5 let alone understand their history & function.

I await with interest the first attempts to rubbish the results of future DNA tests etc in advance.

Phil Tomaselli 

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 04:01:24 PM
I would love for someone of that postion to please demonstrate some logic or reason WHY these remains could be somebody ELSE than Alexei and the missing Grand Duchess.

Lets put it this way, I would be very surprised if, based on what's been presented, these remains turn out to be someone other than the two imperial children, but... the scientist in me tells me we must wait for the DNA results before we definitively state that the two missing children have been found. Considering all the controversies, or rather the three ring circus, that has surrounded this case for the past 10+ years, I don't think that's an unreasonable approach.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 04:13:05 PM
Now the remains of Alexei and his unidentified sister have been found (I don't know whether I think it's Anastasia or Maria), does anyone know the reaction of the die hard AA was AN supporters, plus supporters who believed in an Alexei claimant, particularly those who wrote books, articles, etc about the case? I'm thinking particularly of Peter Kurth and J Kendrick as being the most prominent I know of, but I know there are others.

I'm most interested in AA and I would love to know believers' take on the discoveries and whether they have any light to shed on how AA managed to be so convincing now the real truth is out. These are the people who met AA and spoke with her, who were taken in by her and have access to all of the evidence in the case, and now we all know for sure that there were no survivors, it would be interesting to look at the case from the other way around - looking backwards from the truth to see how it was pulled off rather than there still being this insistence that there could be a possibility of it being true.

Any info on this would be gratefully appreciated.

Rachel
xx

Rachel, going back to your original question, my guess is that the most ardent "survivor theorists" (and they know who they are) will probably use the same reasoning as they have been all along, i.e. "DNA tests are unreliable", "Russians can't be trusted", "no one connected to the case can be trusted", etc. I don't see why this new development will change anything or make them have any other kind of a reaction. I certainly don't see them coming out and saying "I was mistaken all along" and moving on.

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2007, 04:22:07 PM
I was directing this post at high profile supporters of survivor theories, those that put their theories out into the public domain. Not those individuals who have expressed doubts or wished for there to have been survivors. I used to be one of those myself, after all.

I won't be 100% satisfied with these latest findings until we get the DNA results, but circumstantially, it all adds up as far as I'm concerned. I can understand where those who have believed in survivors are coming from - before there were no bodies, there was a genuine possibility that an escape could have happened. An unlikely possibility, sure, but a possibility all the same.

In my experience, the younger the Romanov fan, the more likely they are to believe that there were survivors, simply for the romance factor. When I first came to find out about the Romanovs, I was around 10, and I believed because I couldn't handle the thought that innocent children had been killed. As I got older, that sentimental side didn't come into it as much.

I'm seriously interested in finding out how high profile supporters are going to back their way out of the hole they have made for themselves, if they agree that they need to back out, that is.

Rachel
xx

I suggest all Ally Pally Posters just throw them a rope and pull them up out of the hole if they want to come.  No need to say "I told you so".

TampaBay

TB:

I don't think anyone needs a rope or is in a hole.  There is indeed no need ever to say "I told you so." Educated, reasonable people LEARN and GROW and change their opinions.  We all make mistakes.  We must be gracious to those who have erred in the past and understand their errors.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2007, 04:29:12 PM
I suggest all Ally Pally Posters just throw them a rope and pull them up out of the hole if they want to come.  No need to say "I told you so".

TampaBay

TB:

I don't think anyone needs a rope or is in a hole.  There is indeed no need ever to say "I told you so." Educated, reasonable people LEARN and GROW and change their opinions.  We all make mistakes.  We must be gracious to those who have erred in the past and understand their errors.


I don't think it will  even be necessary for anyone to have be gracious, because (call me a cynic) I have a feeling it will just be business as usual ;-)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Kransnoeselo on August 29, 2007, 05:37:48 PM
While I think most of us would hope that the remains of Alexei and Anastasia (Maria) have been found for the sake of closure, I do believe reserve must be used until genetic testing can be done.  There was a vaguely similar report two or three years ago that shards of bones and charred ewelry beads had been found which turned out to be nothing of import. As long as genetic testing is perforrmed and matched with the samples of Prince Philip and the remains found in Ekaterinburg then this case can finally be laid to rest.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2007, 05:40:05 PM
Perhaps you may be correct Helen.  However, one can have hope.  Bob's contacts and conversations have convinced him beyond a doubt that the DNA testing will prove the statements made in Ekaterinburg to be true.  Much is misunderstood by those who have doubts, but we have nothign more to say at this time aside from that.  Our current position is not something "jumping to conclusions" or rushing to judgment.  WE believe that in the long run, we made the correct decision as will be demonstrated by the DNA (providing there is hopefully sufficient viable DNA in the remains or especially the teeth.)  As a result, that will be the policy of the Forum towards discussion.

It is our hope and goal that the DNA testing will put a final end to the often contentious attitudes towards the missing children and the Ekaterinburg murders.  An entire new era of scholarship and study can now take place with this one mystery put to rest once and for all.

There are still those who believe the Earth is flat, that Neil Armstrong's moonwalk was staged, and Elvis Lives, such is life.

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 29, 2007, 05:50:51 PM
What more would there be to say once this find is confirmed? Other than, of course some book "proving" the falsity of the findings.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: imperial angel on August 29, 2007, 07:49:32 PM
Well, with the Romanovs, there is always something more to say- whatever it turns out to be from either perspective, those who support imposters and those who don't.I think that the supporters of imposters will just go on as they always have, because people believing what they want to believe is just human nature, and as old as time, and besides, who wants to admit they are wrong? There was of course even before this discovery ample proof no one survived that July night. This discovery is certainly the real deal though.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: RichC on August 29, 2007, 09:38:21 PM
I owe an apology to Dmitri A. Muratov and to RichC and to forum members for suggesting that Dmitri A. Muratov was a Russian exile in London - I can only plead that it was only the reference to the duplicity of the Russian Government that caused me to give the item my full attention.

Having said that, the fact that the Russian Government can be accused of such gross duplicity without it being obviously ridiculous suggests to me that they will all too easily be accused of rigging these findings by those keen to suggest a fraud.

Do not forget that there are people who post on this board who think that MI5 murdered Princess Diana.........people who can barely spell MI5 let alone understand their history & function.

Phil Tomaselli 


How on Earth can you say the idea that the Russian government might be guilty of gross duplicity is "obviously ridiculous"?   What makes them so special? 

Sovereign governments engage in "gross duplicity" all the time -- if it is in their interests.  Did you ever hear of the WMD's in Iraq that nobody ever found?  The whole purpose of going to war over there was made up!  That was "gross duplicity" by a sovereign governement.

You cannot compare the "rigging of these findings" with the assassination of a Russian journalist.

Russian government rigging findings of last two bodies = obviously ridiculous

Russian government having a role in death of independent journalist = VERY POSSIBLE

And how can you compare the death of Anna Politkovskaya with Diana?  Are you not aware that Polikovskaya was shot three times at point-blank range in the elevator of her own apartment building?  Politkovskaya wasn't some politically immaterial jet setter with major psychological issues.  She was one of the best things about modern Russia -- she called for justice, transparency and honesty.  What she did was heroic -- and she paid with her life.

Politkovskaya was a major critic of Putin and his government.  Check out her book, Putin's Russia: Life in a Failing Democracy.  Her final book, published postumously in May 2007 is titled, A Russian Diary: A Journalist's Final Account of Life, Corruption, and Death in Putin's Russia.

Anna Politkovskaya herself predicted that she might be assassinated by her enemies.  This included Putin and his cronies.  Shortly before she was killed, she wrote, "...I am an incorrigible enemy, not amenable to re-education.

I'm not joking. Some time ago, Vladislav Surkov, Putin's deputy chief of staff, explained that there were people who were enemies but whom you could talk sense into, and there were incorrigible enemies who simply needed to be "cleansed" from the political arena.

So they are trying to cleanse it of me and others like me.
"

You do owe Mr. Muratov an apology, Phil Tomaselli, but not because you mistook him for a Russian exile, but because of your unjust comments on this board about the investigation into the death of Anna Politkovskaya.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on August 29, 2007, 10:04:37 PM
Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject.

You are right, Capt, and the problem I'm afraid has been that people here have been debunking possibilities without attacking anyone personally, but unfortunately some of the people were defensive.  They took it as 'cruelty' to be told that their position was incorrect, and as a 'personal attack' to be told that there were valid reasons why what they were saying and and believing wasn't true. I don't believe anyone has ever been 'attacked for their views', though views have been attacked, this is necessary to explain why they aren't true.  A lot of people incorrectly took it the wrong way when all the members were trying to was help them understand- just as you said. This is a discussion forum about history. When a new poster comes here asking if Anna Anderson was really Anastasia, they had to hear the answer, no. For some, that was some kind of 'attack', but for others, like you, it was useful and interesting information, which was the way it was intended.

That sums up about exactly what has happened here. People getting offended has caused a lot of fights and closed threads but no one ever meant to attack anybody personally.

Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject.  I do feel a little silly now to have believed in survivors--on some level did even at the time--but I wanted to believe in that possibility or at least see it soundly disproven, not just attacked by people who didn't want to believe, and it's obvious many converts have been made here.  On the other hand, certainly it would be cruel for anyone to have survived such treatment and terrible memories, and then have their identity disputed.  May they all rest in peace together.

My experiences came quite a while ago, around a year or two  so I am sure things changed since but I haven't really checked to see I don't know. I think I just hated the fact that my views were ridiculed mercilessly, it was really a very childish, impulsive response but I remember feeling very hurt by how no one ever seemed to take what I said seriously. I understand why people dismissed my views so easily now, and I don't feel hurt about it anymore.

Rachael

Rachael I am sorry if I am one you felt that way about. We were just coming from two different places and perhaps misunderstanding how the other felt. You may have come here with some of the very stereotypical AA info you see online, she knew this, this matched that, and so on, and you accepted it outright, then came here to discuss it. Some of us who had been through i tall over and over for many years and through many posters saw it as "oh no here we go again" and had to start the same debunking to the same old lists of "proof" that keeps going around. I know it sounds bad to you, but to some of us it was actually like an old running joke and felt the need to drag out all the anti-AA artillery to shoot holes in all the weak theories the supporters keep perpetuating. IN doing this, nobody intended to hurt the person on the other side of the posts, only to make the last of the AA myth finally go away. Because we knew for a fact AA was a fake, there is no way to be objective about it, if you believe in AA you are on the wrong side. I am glad  you don't feel hurt anymore, because it wasn't anything personal against you and nobody meant to hurt you.

Also, not all of the AA supporters were as innocent or as nice as you. Some of them have been mean and vicious to those who don't believe in AA, in more intentionally hurtful, even personal, ways. You wouldn't believe some of the personal insults and intentionally hurtful remarks I have recieved in PMs from AA supporters, or seen posted on the old "Legends" forum aimed at me.(or someone they think is me when it wasn't, at one time they were so paranoid they blamed me for about 8 people who weren't me) It has been very wild and rough at times.

 CorisCaptSkip, I am glad to know that our debunking helped you see the light and that you didn't get offended. You came to an educational site for answers and were not upset they might not have been the ones you were looking for but accepted them and learned. That's why we're all here, to learn.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 30, 2007, 12:46:40 AM
Obviously I was not as well-read as many people, and the things I saw emphasized the similarities and downplayed the differences or left them out entirely.  What convinced me was the issue of languages, even more than DNA.  The Russian Imperial Family were fluent in both English and Russian, which Anna Anderson didn't even know until she had time to learn them and then never spoke like a native.  You'd have to grasp at something really wild such as "foreign accent syndrome" due to brain damage to begin to explain this.  No matter what trauma Anastasia had been through, she would retain languages she was raised speaking--not one (German) in which she'd had only a few lessons.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 30, 2007, 02:12:55 AM
Well, with the Romanovs, there is always something more to say- whatever it turns out to be from either perspective, those who support imposters and those who don't.I think that the supporters of imposters will just go on as they always have, because people believing what they want to believe is just human nature, and as old as time, and besides, who wants to admit they are wrong? There was of course even before this discovery ample proof no one survived that July night. This discovery is certainly the real deal though.

Imperial Angel, you are right.  I don't believe anyone - in their gut - believes anyone survived that terrible night.  However, I also don't believe that anyone deliberately sets out to support imposters and conmen - who, by their very nature - take advantage of people's weaknesses; which in this case is holding out hope (in spite of all the logic and evidence in the world) that somehow one or more of the Romanov's survived.  They are basically decent people.  Sure they are dreamers but isn't there space on this planet for dreamers as well as people who are hard realists?  I hope there is.

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on August 30, 2007, 03:40:47 AM
I was directing this post at high profile supporters of survivor theories, those that put their theories out into the public domain. Not those individuals who have expressed doubts or wished for there to have been survivors. I used to be one of those myself, after all.

I won't be 100% satisfied with these latest findings until we get the DNA results, but circumstantially, it all adds up as far as I'm concerned. I can understand where those who have believed in survivors are coming from - before there were no bodies, there was a genuine possibility that an escape could have happened. An unlikely possibility, sure, but a possibility all the same.

In my experience, the younger the Romanov fan, the more likely they are to believe that there were survivors, simply for the romance factor. When I first came to find out about the Romanovs, I was around 10, and I believed because I couldn't handle the thought that innocent children had been killed. As I got older, that sentimental side didn't come into it as much.

I'm seriously interested in finding out how high profile supporters are going to back their way out of the hole they have made for themselves, if they agree that they need to back out, that is.

Rachel
xx

I suggest all Ally Pally Posters just throw them a rope and pull them up out of the hole if they want to come.  No need to say "I told you so".

TampaBay

TB:

I don't think anyone needs a rope or is in a hole.  There is indeed no need ever to say "I told you so." Educated, reasonable people LEARN and GROW and change their opinions.  We all make mistakes.  We must be gracious to those who have erred in the past and understand their errors.


Oh I agree. I probably shouldn't have used that turn of phrase. I think a lot of us on here have believed in a survivor theory at some point. I certainly have. But I grew up, I learned a lot more about the world around me, and I realised I was, in all likelihood, wrong. So I changed my mind. I am perfectly happy to accept and support those who realise they may have been mistaken.

On the suggestion of another poster who kindly alerted me to a place where I could find the reactions of survivor theory supporters, amongst them one of the people I mentioned in my first post, I have been able to see responses like those I asked for.  I was unsurprised to find that the same 'it's all a conspiracy' talk is still alive and well. One person went as far to suggest that the Koptiyaki forest is 'littered' with dead bodies. I wonder why that would be? There is also much talk of it being a 'convenient' time for the Russian government to release this news. I can't think of a genuinely convincing reason as to why the Russian government would see this as a good PR stunt - as most of us have already said, no one but those with an existing interest in the Romanovs really cares, or even knows what has happened, or its significance, to boot.

Sensible, rational people wait for sensible, rational proof. And as I said before, I won't be 100% satisfied until I see DNA results. But, logic and circumstantial evidence suggest that these are indeed the remains of the missing Romanovs. However, sensible, logical and rational unfortunately do not apply to all people. And that is where ludicrous theoreticians come from. I predict the UK newspapers will be full of all the old 'it was a conspiracy; Diana was killed' nonsense around the 10th anniversary of her death services, etc. Because, of course, Diana was such a threat to the power of the British monarchy. That power that was taken away...about 450 years ago. Those kinds of people will never be satisfied with any proof as long as they want to believe in the conspiracy. And the level of delusion demonstrated by many I have seen around and about suggests that the wish to believe will never go away.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on August 30, 2007, 09:00:00 AM
[

Sensible, rational people wait for sensible, rational proof. And as I said before, I won't be 100% satisfied until I see DNA results. But, logic and circumstantial evidence suggest that these are indeed the remains of the missing Romanovs. However, sensible, logical and rational unfortunately do not apply to all people. And that is where ludicrous theoreticians come from. I predict the UK newspapers will be full of all the old 'it was a conspiracy; Diana was killed' nonsense around the 10th anniversary of her death services, etc. Because, of course, Diana was such a threat to the power of the British monarchy. That power that was taken away...about 450 years ago. Those kinds of people will never be satisfied with any proof as long as they want to believe in the conspiracy. And the level of delusion demonstrated by many I have seen around and about suggests that the wish to believe will never go away.

Rachel
xx

Well put Rachel.  Just take a rational look at Russia today, with Putin consolodating his power, suppressing dissent and opposition, creating and maintaining his oligarchs and attempting to ressurect a Soviet style Nationalism extending to even trying to claim the entire North Pole as Russian territory. (Please take the political discussion of this to another thread, this is here only to set the support evidence for my next sentence).

WHY on EARTH would the Russian government go to the trouble, expense, etc to create some conspiracy to plant evidence about the Imperial Children?  WHAT would the possible gain be? Putin and his regime have much bigger fish to fry and there can be no doubt that some moldy bones in Ekaterinburg as SO FAR under their radar as to be non-existent and trivial.

What is even more disturbing to me, IMO, and I will gladly go on record here, is how INSULTING these allegations are to the genuine work of those dedicated people who have spent decades at work in Ekaterinburg, including Avdonin, Soloviev, Kurlaiev, SEARCH, et al.  Each and every single person who claims this to be some sort of conspiracy or plant should hide their faces in SHAME at the slander and genuine defamation that they throw in their  faces at  the genuine work of all of these people.  Anyone who genuinely IS  a "serious" historian or author would certainly know of their work and dedication,  and would be appalled that anyone would so question their integrity by making such a claim.

Rob
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on August 30, 2007, 10:01:11 AM
very well put Rob ... thanks very much for your wise words
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on August 30, 2007, 10:09:09 AM
Yes, it is an insult to those who worked hard on this, it's the same as calling them liars and crooks and frauds. But this is nothing new for claimant supporters/conspiracy theorists who have been doing the same to the DNA scientists for 13 years. All for what, to continue to make excuses for the ones who really were liars and frauds?(claimants)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: RichC on August 30, 2007, 04:19:21 PM

Well put Rachel.  Just take a rational look at Russia today, with Putin consolodating his power, suppressing dissent and opposition, creating and maintaining his oligarchs and attempting to ressurect a Soviet style Nationalism extending to even trying to claim the entire North Pole as Russian territory. (Please take the political discussion of this to another thread, this is here only to set the support evidence for my next sentence).

WHY on EARTH would the Russian government go to the trouble, expense, etc to create some conspiracy to plant evidence about the Imperial Children?  WHAT would the possible gain be? Putin and his regime have much bigger fish to fry and there can be no doubt that some moldy bones in Ekaterinburg as SO FAR under their radar as to be non-existent and trivial.


I'm in complete agreement here.  Putin has much bigger fish to fry (and they are being fried). 
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on August 30, 2007, 11:43:22 PM
Complete agreement with Forum Admin from me too (despite RichC's misreading of my original statement) BUT Putin's Government's excesses and blatant willingness to twist and corrupt offer the perfect excuse for the "loony brigade" (and trust me, I've known some of them) to claim they've done so here.  And someone will.................

Phil T
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 31, 2007, 12:00:16 AM

3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.

My question is (and accepting 1 and 2, based on logic) :  Knowing 4 and 3, why weren't the bodies found earlier?  70 metres isn't far.  Yurovsky made the location clear.  This doesn't make sense!

Sophie

While 70 metres isn't "far" when one is undertaking a proper archaeological excavation it is a huge distance.  One doesn't go "poking around" with shovels or picks.  The soil is carefully removed under controlled circumstances a few centimetres at a time.  In fact, there has been a schedule of the areas of the site to be excavated, and this specific section has been on the 2007 dig calendar for about three years now.  So, it wasn't exactly a random stab in the dark nor overlooked.  The description by Yurovsky isn't "clear as a bell" in its language.  While I have not seen the original Russian text, certain words are left open to interpretation and the discovery site is now "clear" once we know where it was so can finally see what Yurovsky actually meant.

Allow an example.  "We went 100 paces away, by some birch trees and a big rock."   Well, the entire area is nothing but birch trees and big rocks.  Does this make sense?  I'm trying to keep things simple, so please don't everyone attack me about this detail, I made it up and its NOT what the Yurovsky statement said.

Thank you, Forum Administrator.  I appreciate the points you have made above.  I certainly understand that an archeological dig is not as simple as making a cake.  They have to take care not to destroy things along the way etc.  That being said, they have had an awful long time to dig up those bodies - which incidently I believe to be the missing two Romanovs, so please don't attack me on this point.  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on August 31, 2007, 05:45:09 AM
  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie

Sigh, this needs to be answered once and for all and stickied! Okay one more time- NEW WRITINGS FROM YUROVSKY RECENTLY BECAME AVAILABLE THAT WERE NOT SEEN BEFORE!! They were much more specific as to the exact location. Please go read the "Ekaterinburg Press Release" thread in "Forum announcements", it explains everything. Another big reason nobody found them in all those years is  that there really wasn't much in the grave when you look at the pictures. It wasn't like digging up 9 mostly whole skeletons like the first time. These were only small pieces of bones and other materials. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 31, 2007, 06:31:29 AM
Thank you for your guidance, Annie!
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 31, 2007, 06:38:51 AM
I should add that the absence of two bodies from the mass grave in Ekaterinburg containing Russia's last Imperial Family does not validate a survival hypothesis for either the Grand Duchess Anastasia (alternatively Maria) or Tsarevich Alexis. The solution to the mystery is much simpler. There is little reason to doubt chief executioner Yakov Yurovsky's account of the disposal of the Imperial Family's remains, as his report detailing their disposal led investigators a generation later directly to the site of the mass grave, and he never attempted to hide anything. It's simply logical that when the funeral pyre had been lit using gasoline as an accelerant, Yurovsky would have started with the two smallest bodies to see how long it took to reduce them to ash. However, time being of the essence and damp conditions hindering the process, a communal grave was dug for the other victims, Alexis and Anastasia's smoldering, charred remains consigned to a separate grave by their pyre as detailed by Yurovsky. There were simply too many witnesses to the murder and disposal of the Imperial Family, for a cover-up to have occurred or been sustained 80 odd years. Forensic and historic records continue to uphold the accuracy of Yakov Yurovsky's account of those hideous events in 1918 which still haunt the world.

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: RichC on August 31, 2007, 09:13:01 AM
Complete agreement with Forum Admin from me too (despite RichC's misreading of my original statement) BUT Putin's Government's excesses and blatant willingness to twist and corrupt offer the perfect excuse for the "loony brigade" (and trust me, I've known some of them) to claim they've done so here.  And someone will.................

Phil T

Thanks, Phil.  This is much clearer.  Sometimes a statement can be worded in such a way that it can create misunderstandings.  I thought you were suggesting that a "loony brigade" was accusing the Russian government of complicity in the death of a journalist, and would do the same in the investigation of the discovery of the remains.  In the case of the journalist, I hope everyone understands the idea of government complicity is far from "loony". 
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on August 31, 2007, 09:44:53 AM
Sophie,

I think you also forget that in Siberia, the time available to conduct a proper excavation when weather permits is something less than four full months of the year, approximately May thru September.  They can excavate perhaps 50 square metres per season.  The entire area, say only 100 metres per side = 10,000 square metres of possible digging space.  At 50 sq. m. per year, thats TWENTY YEARS of work.

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 01, 2007, 02:46:14 AM
Sophie,

I think you also forget that in Siberia, the time available to conduct a proper excavation when weather permits is something less than four full months of the year, approximately May thru September.  They can excavate perhaps 50 square metres per season.  The entire area, say only 100 metres per side = 10,000 square metres of possible digging space.  At 50 sq. m. per year, thats TWENTY YEARS of work.



Thank you, Forum Administrator.  I really appreciate your efforts to answer my questions!

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Rachael89 on September 01, 2007, 08:48:01 AM
Rachael89, I absolutely agree with everything you said except for there being cruelty and ridicule on the forums.  I found the members here to be most helpful in debunking possibilities I raised without attacking me personally, which sadly cannot be said of all forums on any subject.  I do feel a little silly now to have believed in survivors--on some level did even at the time--but I wanted to believe in that possibility or at least see it soundly disproven, not just attacked by people who didn't want to believe, and it's obvious many converts have been made here.  On the other hand, certainly it would be cruel for anyone to have survived such treatment and terrible memories, and then have their identity disputed.  May they all rest in peace together.

Rachael I am sorry if I am one you felt that way about. We were just coming from two different places and perhaps misunderstanding how the other felt. You may have come here with some of the very stereotypical AA info you see online, she knew this, this matched that, and so on, and you accepted it outright, then came here to discuss it. Some of us who had been through i tall over and over for many years and through many posters saw it as "oh no here we go again" and had to start the same debunking to the same old lists of "proof" that keeps going around. I know it sounds bad to you, but to some of us it was actually like an old running joke and felt the need to drag out all the anti-AA artillery to shoot holes in all the weak theories the supporters keep perpetuating. IN doing this, nobody intended to hurt the person on the other side of the posts, only to make the last of the AA myth finally go away. Because we knew for a fact AA was a fake, there is no way to be objective about it, if you believe in AA you are on the wrong side. I am glad  you don't feel hurt anymore, because it wasn't anything personal against you and nobody meant to hurt you.

Also, not all of the AA supporters were as innocent or as nice as you. Some of them have been mean and vicious to those who don't believe in AA, in more intentionally hurtful, even personal, ways. You wouldn't believe some of the personal insults and intentionally hurtful remarks I have recieved in PMs from AA supporters, or seen posted on the old "Legends" forum aimed at me.(or someone they think is me when it wasn't, at one time they were so paranoid they blamed me for about 8 people who weren't me) It has been very wild and rough at times.

Thanks Annie, as you say, it was largely a misunderstanding as I misinterpreted what was ridicule of an opinion as ridicule of me as a person, I am quite a sensitive person so reading between the lines I'd interpret people's posts as an attack. I know what you mean about agressive AA supporters, I remember one who kept on reapplying under diffirent names after being banned, and I thought they were very rude in how they often attacked people who criticised their view.

Rachael
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 01, 2007, 04:57:40 PM
  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie

Sigh, this needs to be answered once and for all and stickied! Okay one more time- NEW WRITINGS FROM YUROVSKY RECENTLY BECAME AVAILABLE THAT WERE NOT SEEN BEFORE!! They were much more specific as to the exact location. Please go read the "Ekaterinburg Press Release" thread in "Forum announcements", it explains everything. Another big reason nobody found them in all those years is  that there really wasn't much in the grave when you look at the pictures. It wasn't like digging up 9 mostly whole skeletons like the first time. These were only small pieces of bones and other materials. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Annie,
I just read the press release and didn't see anything about a new note from Yurovsky. What did I miss?
Lexi
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 01, 2007, 07:21:24 PM
It was my understanding that someone retranslated existing notes.  Please say if this is correct.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 01, 2007, 07:44:10 PM
As I understand it, there was a third report by Yurovsky, that was taken by a stenographer and kept in the Kremlin archives until sometime after the fall of the USSR, when it was released. I took time to find it though.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 01, 2007, 11:11:59 PM
  My question is:  given the general location was known, why now, after all this time?

Thanks
Sophie

Sigh, this needs to be answered once and for all and stickied! Okay one more time- NEW WRITINGS FROM YUROVSKY RECENTLY BECAME AVAILABLE THAT WERE NOT SEEN BEFORE!! They were much more specific as to the exact location. Please go read the "Ekaterinburg Press Release" thread in "Forum announcements", it explains everything. Another big reason nobody found them in all those years is  that there really wasn't much in the grave when you look at the pictures. It wasn't like digging up 9 mostly whole skeletons like the first time. These were only small pieces of bones and other materials. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Annie,
I just read the press release and didn't see anything about a new note from Yurovsky. What did I miss?
Lexi

Me neither, Lexi.  But I haven't discounted the possibility entirely!  Nor does it change the bottomline!

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 01, 2007, 11:53:20 PM
"myth" is an excellent word for the thread
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 01, 2007, 11:57:59 PM
Ther are at least 3 threads on this subject.   FA has explained on one of them  why the  remains were found  at the last  site to be excavated.   The  Yurovsky note kept secret in the Kremlin until recently has been expalined as well.  Check  the postings from Belochka. She translated   the entitre statement from the research team.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 02, 2007, 12:57:07 AM
Thanks, the matter of new evidence clears up the issue.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on September 02, 2007, 02:24:10 PM
No offense to anyone personally, but I am getting very, very weary with the 'why now' questions that come up in every thread. We really do need a stickied explaination to answer this question somewhere.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 02, 2007, 03:01:24 PM
I second that!!
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 02, 2007, 03:52:04 PM
Imperial childrens' remains discovered FAQs...

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10115.0.html
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on September 02, 2007, 09:52:12 PM
Imperial childrens' remains discovered FAQs...

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10115.0.html

Thanks, that's a great thread!

People who don't want to stop believing in claimaints have been saying 'those woods were full of victims they could be anybody', but isn't it interesting that in all those years of digging, not ONE other body of anyone from the revolution, Stalinist purge, or even a local serial killer has EVER been found out there?! Only the Imperial family. That's another thing that should tell everyone these sites are connected.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 02, 2007, 10:05:50 PM
Good point, Annie.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 02, 2007, 10:27:21 PM
a very good point indeed .. there's no ends some will go to in their attempts to deny history
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 03, 2007, 12:49:28 AM
Imperial childrens' remains discovered FAQs...

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10115.0.html

Thanks, that's a great thread!

People who don't want to stop believing in claimaints have been saying 'those woods were full of victims they could be anybody', but isn't it interesting that in all those years of digging, not ONE other body of anyone from the revolution, Stalinist purge, or even a local serial killer has EVER been found out there?! Only the Imperial family. That's another thing that should tell everyone these sites are connected.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here but just because they haven't found bodies belonging to aristocrats other than the imperial family, doesn't mean they are not there.  As the FA has made the point, it takes a long time to escavate those woods!  And just before you get your claws out, I personally believe that they have now found all the Romanovs but that doesn't preclude the discovery of other bodies.

The biggest mystery for me is now: why hasn't Peter Kurth responded to this news?  I've been all over his website and nothing, nada, niete!
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 03, 2007, 10:04:04 AM
The point was they have not found any other bodies of anybody.  Aristocrats or otherwise.
 Kurth has responded, you just have to know where to look for ir.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on September 03, 2007, 02:47:17 PM
The point was they have not found any other bodies of anybody.  Aristocrats or otherwise.


Exactly. Thanks, Robert. In all those years of digging they've never found ANY other bodies or had any 'false alarms' (other than the one near the house, but not in the forest) So looks like those woods are not the 'dumping ground' or as 'full of bodies' as some claim.  But some will cling to any hope so they can continue to pull for the claimants.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 03, 2007, 10:57:05 PM
The point was they have not found any other bodies of anybody.  Aristocrats or otherwise.


Exactly. Thanks, Robert. In all those years of digging they've never found ANY other bodies or had any 'false alarms' (other than the one near the house, but not in the forest) So looks like those woods are not the 'dumping ground' or as 'full of bodies' as some claim.  But some will cling to any hope so they can continue to pull for the claimants.

Thanks Annie.  For me, this is not about providing support for the claimants.  I would hope that anyone who performed such an indecent act on the Romanovs and on the world, more broadly, would be brought to account and punished accordingly.  And if not them, then the people who facilitated the fraud.  But finding the bodies of other aristocrats in those woods does not obliterate the fact that the Romanovs were buried there.  It just proves the bloody mindedness of the Bolsheviks to destroy the Russian monarchy and its supporters.

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 04, 2007, 02:24:54 AM
The murders were carried out to ensure there was absolutely no possibility of going back to the old regime.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 04, 2007, 02:32:00 AM
The murders were carried out to ensure there was absolutely no possibility of going back to the old regime.

Exactly, Dmitri.  It is a mindset I struggle with (ie the end justifying the means) but I think that may be a topic for another thread.

My best wishes to you.
Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 04, 2007, 03:06:16 PM
The murders were carried out to ensure there was absolutely no possibility of going back to the old regime.



Exactly, Dmitri.  It is a mindset I struggle with (ie the end justifying the means) but I think that may be a topic for another thread.

My best wishes to you.
Sophie
That is correct exactly~ I agree. That is a very good point you gave Annie! That is also realy true Sophie and Dmitri. It is realy sad that some will continue to deny history and facts even if many others proved that it is true, there is no end for that. People will still coutinue to deny what realy happened and use excuses and annoying questions to prove it false. But, there is one thing that you can not ever change and it is the events that happened HISTORY!

a very good point indeed .. there's no ends some will go to in their attempts to deny history

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 04, 2007, 06:20:59 PM
I have a question. How long will a discussion about those who do not believe continue? What is the point?
Lexi
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 04, 2007, 06:33:55 PM
Probably until Hades freezes over. There never was much of a point to begin with, omo.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 04, 2007, 06:41:42 PM
Probably until Hades freezes over. There never was much of a point to begin with, omo.

 ;D

Agreed. There really are interesting things to discuss, but people's reactions is not one of them imho.
Lexi
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Valmont on September 04, 2007, 07:21:54 PM
I agree.. what  else do they need?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 05, 2007, 12:26:47 AM
So, where has Peter Kurth responded, and what is his response?  Is he still to be addressed as "Pope Peter"?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Belochka on September 05, 2007, 01:08:24 AM
a very good point indeed .. there's no ends some will go to in their attempts to deny history

When a story offers false expectations then why should the truth get in the way?  

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 05, 2007, 03:15:24 AM
precisely
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 05, 2007, 03:53:33 PM
Exactly, that is the bottom line the truth should never be deny or disbelieved therefore becuase it is the correct and accurate knowledge to understand and believe something that is right. History is what keeps the truth of things up. Therfore History could never be changed.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: imperial angel on September 05, 2007, 04:09:45 PM
Well, these reactions as they are called in title of this thread, are predictable, and do not perhaps need to be discussed therefore. But, I still find it interesting to see what explanations believers in imposters (or those who just want to believe someone survived, even if they are more misguided than that they actually believe in it) have. I thought it was a good idea for a thread, and I enjoyed reading it.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 05, 2007, 04:56:20 PM
Something just occured to me, which I, imho, found interesting.

Forever since we started the forum, and the first discussions about AA, all we ever heard about was ALL the "overwhelming" evidence that AA was ANR OTHER than the DNA.  There was "ear shape analysis", Language similarities, "regal behavior" etc etc. We kept hearing that same stuff over and over and over. "The NON DNA evidence is important. Don't exclude it." Plus, we kept hearing "DNA isn't the final answer. DNA is flawed. DNA is fallible."

WELL, now all it seems these EXACT SAME PEOPLE are saying : Well, the non-DNA evidence means NOTHING. Its premature to even consider it. All the following are meaningless to them,

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  From "Last Act of a Tragedy":
"G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."


They say: "Its premature to say anything. We have to have DNA testing before we will believe these remains are Alexei and his sister ONLY when the DNA comes back will be consider it proof"...

Well, I just find it interesting that those people pick and choose their point of view. To support AA being ANR, it was ok to ignore or discount the DNA evidence, yet NOW, DNA is indeed the 100% answer. Shoe's on the other foot....

curiouso??
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 05, 2007, 05:53:28 PM
  Is he still to be addressed as "Pope Peter"?

As in "his word is gospel"??

Well, I just find it interesting that those people pick and choose their point of view. To support AA being ANR, it was ok to ignore or discount the DNA evidence, yet NOW, DNA is indeed the 100% answer. Shoe's on the other foot....

curiouso??

You just realized that? I thought this was obvious all along...
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Belochka on September 05, 2007, 06:24:30 PM

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  From "Last Act of a Tragedy":

... They say: "Its premature to say anything. We have to have DNA testing before we will believe these remains are Alexei and his sister ONLY when the DNA comes back will be consider it proof"...

Adding to FA's list, we can also add:

The Senior Moscow Procurator (criminalistics), Vladimir Soloviev, has recently affirmed that information received from the Russian Federation Security Bureau:

... that there were no political or other shootings or disposal of bodies at this site during the 1920's to 1950's,

then any reasonable person may realize that:

... with all these pieces of physical and including the historic evidence provided by the FSB there is a strong probability that the remains may indeed be authentic.

Anthropologic assessment and molecular analyses will help provide an informed conclusion.

Thus the assessment of the remains relies on a combination of many considerations.

It must also be recognized that the Russian investigations are being conducted with full and open transparency.

Margarita
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on September 05, 2007, 06:44:03 PM
Something just occured to me, which I, imho, found interesting.

Forever since we started the forum, and the first discussions about AA, all we ever heard about was ALL the "overwhelming" evidence that AA was ANR OTHER than the DNA.  There was "ear shape analysis", Language similarities, "regal behavior" etc etc. We kept hearing that same stuff over and over and over.

Oh and don't forget the shoes! Yes we've heard it all over and over, but if you really examine each piece of 'evidence' it falls lke a house of cards. There is no 'language similarity', quite the opposite, and the 'regal behavior' is certainly a question mark as well. If she ever had it, which I haven't seen in videos of her, it was learned like any other actress. (shamelessly inviting everyone to check out my website for rebuttals to all the 'overwhelming evidence in AA's favor' which really wasn't even there. Other than the luck of similar ears, everything else wasn't at all what she and her supporters wanted people to see.) Sorry but after arguing this actively for 3 years now I cannot see that there is much of anything to stand on as far as AA's case is concerned if you really look deeply into it and are not led astray by remarks tring to make it sound more real than it ever was. This is why I made the site, to clear some of this up.

Quote
"The NON DNA evidence is important. Don't exclude it." Plus, we kept hearing "DNA isn't the final answer. DNA is flawed. DNA is fallible."

Ho ho ho, that is ironic, but it goes to show they will say anything that suits them at the moment regardless of hypocrisy or accuracy.



Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 05, 2007, 10:20:01 PM
Something just occured to me, which I, imho, found interesting.

Forever since we started the forum, and the first discussions about AA, all we ever heard about was ALL the "overwhelming" evidence that AA was ANR OTHER than the DNA.  There was "ear shape analysis", Language similarities, "regal behavior" etc etc. We kept hearing that same stuff over and over and over. "The NON DNA evidence is important. Don't exclude it." Plus, we kept hearing "DNA isn't the final answer. DNA is flawed. DNA is fallible."

WELL, now all it seems these EXACT SAME PEOPLE are saying : Well, the non-DNA evidence means NOTHING. Its premature to even consider it. All the following are meaningless to them,

1. Two bodies have been found. Two bodies were missing.
2.  A male of the correct age and female of the correct age were found.
3.  These two bodies were found 70 metres from the mass burial site.
4.  Yurovsky accurately described the exact location where the bodies were found.
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site
7.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.
8.  Large amounts of burnt material and ash were found at the same layer as the remains.  This is further consistent with all known accounts.
9.  A piece of clothing (called a dress fragment) was found.  From "Last Act of a Tragedy":
"G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."


They say: "Its premature to say anything. We have to have DNA testing before we will believe these remains are Alexei and his sister ONLY when the DNA comes back will be consider it proof"...

Well, I just find it interesting that those people pick and choose their point of view. To support AA being ANR, it was ok to ignore or discount the DNA evidence, yet NOW, DNA is indeed the 100% answer. Shoe's on the other foot....

curiouso??

Yes, I agree.  It does seem hypocritical.  But on the other hand, if (and I should add, when) the DNA confirms the new bodies are their imperial highnesses, the proponents of Anna Anderson or Fransciska or whoever cannot then argue that the DNA is not conclusive.  You cannot have it both ways.  They have dug a hole for themselves, my friends.  One which you cannot climb out of!

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 05, 2007, 11:22:37 PM
Well, some of those AA supporters are simply accusing the Russian authorities of  downright lieing and mis-information.  That is their blanket response.
 They are not about to accept any results of any tests, no matter what the outcome.  They did not accept the previous results, even though Dr. Maples said it was Anastasia who was missing, and the Russians said it was Maria.  Ultimately, it does not matter which GD was buried in which grave, as they both will be accounted for as suffering the same fate, no matter what any doubters may proclaim nor how loudly they proclaim it.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 05, 2007, 11:37:50 PM
Well, some of those AA supporters are simply accusing the Russian authorities of  downright lieing and mis-information.  That is their blanket response.
 They are not about to accept any results of any tests, no matter what the outcome.  They did not accept the previous results, even though Dr. Maples said it was Anastasia who was missing, and the Russians said it was Maria.  Ultimately, it does not matter which GD was buried in which grave, as they both will be accounted for as suffering the same fate, no matter what any doubters may proclaim nor how loudly they proclaim it.

You are right, Robert.  There are those who make a profession out of conspiracy.  Everyone is lying etc.  But ask yourself this.  Why would the Russian Government want, or need, to lie about this?

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 05, 2007, 11:56:55 PM
I am concerned about the many generalities being tossed around about so called "Anna Anderson supporters". Off the top of my head, I can think of only two people who might qualify as such - Peter Kurth and "Chat Noir". Thus far, I have yet to see a direct quote from either of these individuals about the recent discovery.

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 06, 2007, 12:06:39 AM
Lisa, all you have to do is go to the King and Wilsonn Forum and you will see the reactions- in their own words. They do not bite there.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 12:41:43 AM
Yes the information is all there to see.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 06, 2007, 03:37:45 AM
5.  Nagant bullets were found with the remains, which EXACTLY match the same Nagant bullets from the mass burial site.
6.  Pieces of japanese jars containing japanese made sulfuric acid were found which EXACTLY match the pieces of similar jars found in the                  mass burial site

AHA!  And are ALL the original fragments present and accounted for?  Couldn't have been reburied, could they?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 06, 2007, 03:48:08 AM
  Is he still to be addressed as "Pope Peter"?

As in "his word is gospel"??

For those who didn't see the Nova special, as in, "If this was a Polish factory worker, I am the pope!"
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 05:14:13 AM
no comment!!!
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 06, 2007, 08:22:51 AM
I am concerned about the many generalities being tossed around about so called "Anna Anderson supporters". Off the top of my head, I can think of only two people who might qualify as such - Peter Kurth and "Chat Noir". Thus far, I have yet to see a direct quote from either of these individuals about the recent discovery.

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.

Thank you Lisa.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 08:33:09 AM
interesting ...
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 06, 2007, 08:39:05 AM

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.

Lisa, I doubt that there will be actual reactions posted here by those from whom Rachel was interested to hear. So if that's the only thing you are looking for and no other discussion is allowed, perhaps this thread should be locked? 
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on September 06, 2007, 10:48:30 AM
I agree with Dmitri.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 06, 2007, 01:11:00 PM

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.

Lisa, I doubt that there will be actual reactions posted here by those from whom Rachel was interested to hear. So if that's the only thing you are looking for and no other discussion is allowed, perhaps this thread should be locked? 


I second that thought Helen.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 06, 2007, 01:30:19 PM
Why lock the thread?  The reactions ARE being posted now, exactly what was asked for. And I am glad FA started it. Those people are just as entitled to their opinions as we are to ours.  As long as it remains civil, disagreement is ok, in my opinion. There are unreasonable stances on both sides of this issue, as there are on many others as well.  There are also some valid reasons for locking a thread, especially when it becomes a forum for hostlie and insulting posts or when a subject has just been beaten to death with endless reposts, but, so far,that has not happened here- yet.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 06, 2007, 02:02:15 PM
... when a subject has just been beaten to death with endless reposts...

Don't worry, it's just a matter of time until you-know-who shows up ;-)  
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 06, 2007, 02:35:56 PM
Why lock the thread?  The reactions ARE being posted now, exactly what was asked for. And I am glad FA started it. Those people are just as entitled to their opinions as we are to ours.  As long as it remains civil, disagreement is ok, in my opinion. There are unreasonable stances on both sides of this issue, as there are on many others as well.  There are also some valid reasons for locking a thread, especially when it becomes a forum for hostlie and insulting posts or when a subject has just been beaten to death with endless reposts, but, so far,that has not happened here- yet.

Robert Hall, I love you! Thank you so much for this post. We need to remain civil. There are some unreasonable stances among all groups on many issues. I see no need to become hostile or to insult any other person.

That said, it was me who opened up this discussion, and I will not lock this thread unless it becomes insulting, hostile, or lacks civility. I hope that we can have a discussion that is worthy of the best of all of us, and not the worst.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: J_Kendrick on September 06, 2007, 03:03:43 PM

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.


Oh, did I now?  Well that's certainly news to me!

Just biding my time until the results are in, as we all should be doing, and that's all that I'll be saying about any particular case until that time comes.

JK
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 06, 2007, 03:05:39 PM
Thank you all for being civil and understanding about this discussion.  I am pleased that for the most part, everyone has kept to "just the facts" and not let this become personal or nasty. We will not lock the thread so long as things stay that way.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 06, 2007, 03:10:42 PM

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.


Oh, did I now?  Well that's certainly news to me!

Just biding my time until the results are in, as we all should be doing, and that's all that I'll be saying about any particular case until that time comes.

JK

John - then my mistake - I thought I saw a post from you on this topic. We are all united about wanting to know the test results, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 06, 2007, 03:16:33 PM

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.


Oh, did I now?  Well that's certainly news to me!

Just biding my time until the results are in, as we all should be doing, and that's all that I'll be saying about any particular case until that time comes.

JK

John - then my mistake - I thought I saw a post from you on this topic. We are all united about wanting to know the test results, that's for sure.

But that got him to post his reaction, didn't it? ;-) Maybe you ought to try with others, Lisa! LOL
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 06, 2007, 03:37:40 PM

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.


Oh, did I now?  Well that's certainly news to me!

Just biding my time until the results are in, as we all should be doing, and that's all that I'll be saying about any particular case until that time comes.

JK

John - then my mistake - I thought I saw a post from you on this topic. We are all united about wanting to know the test results, that's for sure.

But that got him to post his reaction, didn't it? ;-) Maybe you ought to try with others, Lisa! LOL

Well, they would have to post here on the Forum for that to work! But, I am curious about this and other things. I was always curious, for example, why people thought AA looked like Grand Duchess Anastasia, so I asked alot of questions, because I just never understood it. PK said, you didn't know her (AA) - and I said, you're right, I didn't. But, I just don't see the resemblance that other people do - still.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on September 06, 2007, 03:42:46 PM
I was always curious, for example, why people thought AA looked like Grand Duchess Anastasia, so I asked alot of questions, because I just never understood it. PK said, you didn't know her (AA) - and I said, you're right, I didn't. But, I just don't see the resemblance that other people do - still.

Most of the pictures used by supporters to show they look 'alike' are either cleverly posed to imitate a particular photo or pose of AN, or conveniently shadowed or angled so that the real differences between AA and AN don't show. It seems to me the more I see the pics that some of them must have been deliberately posed that way for the effect of making you see a similarity at first glance and hope you won't look further. AA supporters have gotten a lot of mileage out of blurry, shadowy pics. If you really get good, clear pics of AA and AN and compare, the features, especially the shape of the face and particularly the chin look NOTHING alike (however AA does look a lot like FS!) (if anyone wants to see what I'm talking about please see the 'photographic comparisons' section of my website)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 05:24:22 PM
Yes as they used to say on the old american comedy '' Laugh In " .. very amusing,  but not funny!
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 06, 2007, 06:42:11 PM
I think the trem was actually "veeerrry inetersting" Arte Johnson, wasn't it?
 And Bob, since when do you have clients in Russia?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 06, 2007, 06:48:34 PM
I think the trem was actually "veeerrry inetersting" Arte Johnson, wasn't it?
 And Bob, since when do you have clients in Russia?

It was indeed Arte Johnson in full WWII German helmet and gear "VEEEERRRRRY INTERESTING but stupid"..

FA (Rob not Bob, Bob only ever posts as Bob, I'm always FA)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 06, 2007, 08:40:46 PM
 A "rumble"? Oh that is way too funny. The way I look at it, anything I post here, or there for that matter, is public domain, and anyone is free to quote, in context. I would only hope they might correct my typos. These forums are not exactly  "private" after all.  I f I were not ready for the whole world to see what I have to say- I certainly would not post it on any forum! I have even noticed some of my post come up on Google  and Wikipedia and I certainly did not put them there!
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 06, 2007, 08:52:59 PM
Thats exactly the point Robert.  Any open public forum is accessible to Google, Yahoo, etc. So those posts are totally public.  They are not "private communications" in any sense of the word.  People must understand that what they write in such public forums, like ours, are read by the entire online world and thus subject to discussion.  If you DON'T want what you say discussed, DON'T post in a public forum. DUH....
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 06, 2007, 09:27:28 PM
I am concerned about the many generalities being tossed around about so called "Anna Anderson supporters". Off the top of my head, I can think of only two people who might qualify as such - Peter Kurth and "Chat Noir". Thus far, I have yet to see a direct quote from either of these individuals about the recent discovery.

Please excuse me, but after pages of posts I can find no actual "reactions" with the possible exception of John Kendrick, who has written about the Vancouver Alexei. It would be helpful to actual discussion, I think, if we could know what the actual reactions are, as opposed to a continuous self-congratulatory speculation about what "Anna Anderson supporters" are saying about the discovery.

The hue and cry from Penny Wilson and Greg King was so strong that Bob has asked that all quotes from their forum be removed.  We have complied with their request in an effort to keep the peace.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 06, 2007, 09:45:07 PM
Margarita,

It appears that while the K&W forum does not wish THEIR material to be used here they have also agreed that material from our forum will not be copied there.  Please let me know if this is not the case

Fa
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 06, 2007, 10:19:47 PM
Margarita,

Now that their forum is read only for regisered memebers, i can't do anything more than ask that material from our forum which was copied to theirs be removed. Penny has assured Bob that such would be the case, and so we trust that this will happen.

FA
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 07, 2007, 09:19:56 AM
How very interesting it all has been.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 07, 2007, 09:22:20 AM
It is my understanding that any material copied from the AP forum, specifically including Margarita's, has now  been removed from the K&W forum.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 07, 2007, 09:25:05 AM
How very interesting it all has been.

Indeed...
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 07, 2007, 10:27:48 AM
How very interesting it all has been.

That is putting it mildly. :)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Alixz on September 07, 2007, 01:16:44 PM
I haven't been around for a few days and I guess I missed something.  There are posts that don't quite follow other posts and the thread was locked and then unlocked.

No wonder that some of you find this to be  "very interesting, indeed".

I am simply confused.  As much as I wanted someone, anyone to have escaped that cursed cellar in 1918, I think that with all of the information now available it is just not possible to think that AA was ANR.

Or is it just me?

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 07, 2007, 01:24:15 PM
No, it's not just you Alixz.  :)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 07, 2007, 02:36:29 PM
Now Rachel, aren't you glad you started this thread? ;-)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Alixz on September 07, 2007, 06:40:39 PM
Has anyone who truly believes that AA/FS was ANR posted here?

Is that what I missed?

Hmmmmm.   

Sorry,  FA,  I just read my mail. 
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Alexander_IV on September 07, 2007, 06:48:24 PM
How very interesting it all has been.
Sad is a better word imo.
Or maybe childish
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 08, 2007, 01:40:32 AM
The real trajedy of this case for me is that the imposters did not substitute for the real thing at Ipatiev House (Дом Ипатьева) on July 16/17, 1918.

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 08, 2007, 02:52:12 AM
What a very novel idea!
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Alixz on September 08, 2007, 08:51:16 AM
The real trajedy of this case for me is that the imposters did not substitute for the real thing at Ipatiev House (Дом Ипатьева) on July 16/17, 1918.

Sophie
What a very novel idea!


Very novel, indeed!  ;-)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 08, 2007, 09:23:54 AM
Oh, yes, AA believers have posted here, no need to mention the ones who are gone, most recently ferrymansdaughter. Go back and read her last posts before the bones were found, she was really defending AA, saying her lips were fat because the bayonet  went through them, and more. And even though AGR bear denies it, most of her posts over the last 3 years I've been here have been leaning in the direction of supporting AA, and at the very least, she has NEVER posted anything even remotely negative about AA and is always trying to prove she wasn't FS. Why, unless she really believes AA was a CHEKA plant?
There is realy an story to that ,the AA suporters are looking for excues to prove why Anna Anderson did not know all those languages or why she was old looking in the photos and what height was she.  The AA suporters have been talking about the same thing over and over again. Realy in the threads AGRBear continued to question about Anna Anderson's height. Annie since Bear told us, that Anna Anderson was such a 'great perosn' that we should have respect for. Anyway they claimed that they said they do not think AA is A and that they also claim to believe in the DNA and yet they continue to question about something that the DNA tests did all the work for like about her height all those factors. Anyway I still should respect her opinion though.

Enough is enough!  I do not nor have I ever thought AA was GD Anastastia.  I have said it here over and over but it's not what Annie or some of the other posters  want to believe.  I have stated the same, I do not nor have I ever thought AA was GD Anastasia, on the King and Wilson forum.  So,  I really think it is  time to  end to this  disinformation about Bear. 

I have have no idea why Elisabeth Princess thinks  I've said that "Anna Anderson was such a 'great perosn'.  I think she's an interesting character who from Feb 1920 and to her death claimed she was GD Anastasia.

And,  why would I post here since this thread is supose to be for people who believed AA was GD Anastasia?  I DO NOT so, please,  keep Bear out of this conversation from this point forward.

Thank you,

AGRBear
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 09, 2007, 11:35:10 PM
The real trajedy of this case for me is that the imposters did not substitute for the real thing at Ipatiev House (??? ????????) on July 16/17, 1918.

Sophie
What a very novel idea!


Very novel, indeed!  ;-)

Death to the impostors!  (And what a lot of mess to clean up, with over 200 of them!)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Belochka on September 10, 2007, 12:52:55 AM
The real trajedy of this case for me is that the imposters did not substitute for the real thing at Ipatiev House (??? ????????) on July 16/17, 1918.

Sophie
What a very novel idea!


Very novel, indeed!  ;-)

Death to the impostors! 

Actually they already are.  ;)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 10, 2007, 10:14:11 AM
Actually, the imposters are what keeps the Romanov interest in the news. If it wre not for wanting to prove them false,  perhaps the interest in finding the real remains would have not had such an impetus?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 10, 2007, 05:40:19 PM
Actually, the imposters are what keeps the Romanov interest in the news. If it wre not for wanting to prove them false,  perhaps the interest in finding the real remains would have not had such an impetus?
Yes I agree Robert, if it was not for these imposters and a mystery for the century to find the bones people would not be interested in the romanovs as much. But I do think all this made them more famous.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 10, 2007, 07:36:52 PM
Actually, you all forget that long long ago, Bear divulged that she has some super secret oh so mysterioso curioso family legend that she is pursuing. So maybe AA wasnt' AN but she HAS an agenda... by her own admissions.

FA
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on September 11, 2007, 01:09:40 AM

My interest/agenda, for what it's worth, is British intelligence operations in Russia including involvement in the Rasputin murder and plans to rescue TIF (and no,they did not succeed and escape to Ceylon or any other fancy location - sorry).

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 11, 2007, 07:54:35 AM
Good points all Phil.  :)
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on September 12, 2007, 06:55:51 AM

Oh, yes, AA believers have posted here, no need to mention the ones who are gone, most recently ferrymansdaughter.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I have not gone.  I have been away for a couple of weeks on holiday and moving house - and what a time to be without a computer! (Yes I had a lovely time and the new house is great, thank you for asking.)

You want my reaction?  I am still catching up with all the posts here, but I simply don't know what to think.  Maybe I was wrong and she wasn't Anastasia.  I am still not convinced she was Francisczka, which was always one of my issues,  but where does that leave me?  Puzzled.  Let's wait until testing is over and then see.  I would like to know where the rest of these two bodies are though.

As I have said on this board before, if I'm wrong, I'll come on here and say so.    I still think the case of AA is the most intriguing mystery I've come across.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 12, 2007, 03:11:41 PM
I have just removed a string of very OT comments, and will remind users that if you have something to say to only one other user that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, you should do so via PM and not posting in the general area.

Thank you for your cooperation.

FA
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 12, 2007, 04:46:59 PM
Our member AGR Bear politely asked to be left out of this particular discussion. Yet, many of our posters chose to disregard what I consider to be a perfectly reasonable request on her part and instead continued to discuss her as if she had said nothing. I don't think this is respectful, so I have modified or removed all such mentions of this member on this thread as much as possible.

To those members who have a problem with this, I do apologize. However, I would like to point out that I would do exactly this for any of you who speak up and say "leave me out of this one".

I will also delete any further speculation about what "AA supporters" as some of you are want to call them may or may not believe due to the recent discovery.

As Rob said, kindly stay on topic.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 12, 2007, 04:55:00 PM


Also, while you are at it, you should probably remove other OT comments, like the ones about the KW forum, otherwise it may look like you pick an choose...
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 12, 2007, 05:10:12 PM


Also, while you are at it, you should probably remove other OT comments, like the ones about the KW forum, otherwise it may look like you pick an choose...

Thanks, Helen.

The KW Forum inso far as the fact that many (who would be labeled by people here as "AA supporters" despite views to the contrary) have posted reactions would be okay. Anything outside of that would be OT, and I will try to go in and remove any of those if here.

I recognize that in spite of tremendous efforts to be fair to everyone, there are still going to be those who think I would "pick and choose". Ah, Voltaire, yes, I would defend to the death your right to say such things....
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 12, 2007, 07:09:14 PM
I have changed the name of the thread, as the original name seems to have caused controversy. This thread is about what those who do not believe that EVERYONE in the Imperial Family died that night in Ekaterinburg now think and say. Some people feel that by being discussed here, they are automatically "supporters of AA".  I think we need to make clear that that is NOT the thrust fo the conversation. People still doubt these findings, make serious statements and accusations publicly on the subject, and I believe that this is a fair and reasonable topic to discuss, so long as it is not personal, attacking or violates our policy.  As we have been asked not to directly quote or cite anyone from the K&W Forum, we will respect that request and ask that no direct quotes or personal attribution be made.  The content IS however fair game, and I beleive this to be reasonable.

Bear asked to be left out of the discussion, as she does NOT believe that AA was ANR. Fair enough.  HOWEVER, my point is this, Bear NOW STILL disputes that everyone died that night and is posting very pointed questions in our forum and elsewhere on the internet which clearly indicate that she has SERIOUS doubts that the recent findings are genuine, legitimate, etc. . Insomuch that these posts ARE both here and on the King and Wilson site, which Lisa has said is fair game to discuss without quoting, I think it only reasonable that my post will stand. I"m sorry, but you can not say something in a public forum on the internet in one place then "pick and choose" where and when your statements can be discussed. So long as posts remain ON TOPIC, they are fine.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 12, 2007, 07:25:39 PM
Insomuch that these posts ARE on the King and Wilson site, which Lisa has said is fair game to discuss without quoting, I think it only reasonable that my post will stand. I"m sorry, but you can not say something in a public forum on the internet in one place then "pick and choose" where and when your statements can be discussed. So long as posts remain ON TOPIC, they are fine.

I think that's fair enough then.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Belochka on September 12, 2007, 07:54:57 PM
Insomuch that these posts ARE on the King and Wilson site, which Lisa has said is fair game to discuss without quoting, I think it only reasonable that my post will stand. I"m sorry, but you can not say something in a public forum on the internet in one place then "pick and choose" where and when your statements can be discussed. So long as posts remain ON TOPIC, they are fine.

I think that's fair enough then.

Very fair indeed.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 13, 2007, 12:01:37 AM
I agree that this is a reasonable compromise.

I just hope it does not get crazy again - and I will review the posts so that anything that is OT is removed. Good choice on changing the name of the topic, Rob.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 13, 2007, 08:58:11 AM
Thank you FA & Lisa. I want to apologize for my contribution to the problem.
Lexi
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Lemur on September 13, 2007, 09:40:25 AM

I will also delete any further speculation about what "AA supporters" as some of you are want to call them may or may not believe due to the recent discovery.


Is there anyone other than claimant supporters (Anastasia or Alexei) who are questioning the recent discovery? I haven't seen anyone else doubt it.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 13, 2007, 10:03:37 AM
I believe there is a wait and see attitude from some Romanovs.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 13, 2007, 12:16:15 PM
I have changed the name of the thread, as the original name seems to have caused controversy. This thread is about what those who do not believe that EVERYONE in the Imperial Family died that night in Ekaterinburg now think and say. Some people feel that by being discussed here, they are automatically "supporters of AA".  I think we need to make clear that that is NOT the thrust fo the conversation. People still doubt these findings, make serious statements and accusations publicly on the subject, and I believe that this is a fair and reasonable topic to discuss, so long as it is not personal, attacking or violates our policy.  As we have been asked not to directly quote or cite anyone from the K&W Forum, we will respect that request and ask that no direct quotes or personal attribution be made.  The content IS however fair game, and I beleive this to be reasonable.

Bear asked to be left out of the discussion, as she does NOT believe that AA was ANR. Fair enough.  HOWEVER, my point is this, Bear NOW STILL disputes that everyone died that night and is posting very pointed questions in our forum and elsewhere on the internet which clearly indicate that she has SERIOUS doubts that the recent findings are genuine, legitimate, etc. . Insomuch that these posts ARE both here and on the King and Wilson site, which Lisa has said is fair game to discuss without quoting, I think it only reasonable that my post will stand. I"m sorry, but you can not say something in a public forum on the internet in one place then "pick and choose" where and when your statements can be discussed. So long as posts remain ON TOPIC, they are fine.

  I have stated:  I do not nor have I ever thought AA was GD Anastasia, on the King and Wilson forum.

I voiced this because Annie had, once again,  stated disinformation which causes people to think that I thought otherwise.

Now,  the  subject has just been changed to "Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors".   The key word remains "survivors". 

AND, it apears that FA wants to draw me back into the conversation, again, by stating this:

>>she has SERIOUS doubts that the recent findings are genuine, legitimate, etc. <<

This is my rely:   

Is there a particular post of mine about the 29 July findings or Buchanan-Smart's findings or others findings of bones through the years that you'd like to quote and discuss?    I am always  willing and able to have a discussion about my "serious doubts"  on various subjects  just as I am always open to new information and willing to make new  conclusions when evidence I had not known is provided.   

Let me stress, AGAIN:   I don't care what direction the truth takes me, I am just enjoying the journey. 

AGRBear


 
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 13, 2007, 07:00:20 PM
Bear,
So long as APTM users are forbidden to pull quotes from the King and Wilson forum over here, we must ask that YOU stop placing any material posted here over on the K&W forum, specifically including quotes from me, and press releases translated specifically for OUR users here. Thank you for your cooperation.

FA
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Belochka on September 13, 2007, 08:10:19 PM
Bear,
So long as APTM users are forbidden to pull quotes from the King and Wilson forum over here, we must ask that YOU stop placing any material posted here over on the K&W forum, specifically including quotes from me, and press releases translated specifically for OUR users here. Thank you for your cooperation.

FA

Thank you FA!

Bear I am extremely disappointed to learn that you done this.

Margarita
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Annie on September 13, 2007, 08:22:31 PM
Quote
  I have stated:  I do not nor have I ever thought AA was GD Anastasia, on the King and Wilson forum.

I voiced this because Annie had, once again,  stated disinformation which causes people to think that I thought otherwise.

Bear I know you SAY you never said it and in so many words you didn't. However, when 100% of your posts back up claimants, attack the idea of AA being FS, take up for Heinrich K., the cart story, quote File on the Tsar, and never EVER say or post anything contradictory to AA, it is very, very clear where you stand, lip service or not.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believed in AA/other survivors
Post by: Annie on September 13, 2007, 08:25:41 PM



Sorry to disappoint you, but I have not gone.  I have been away for a couple of weeks on holiday and moving house - and what a time to be without a computer! (Yes I had a lovely time and the new house is great, thank you for asking.)

You want my reaction?  I am still catching up with all the posts here, but I simply don't know what to think.  Maybe I was wrong and she wasn't Anastasia.  I am still not convinced she was Francisczka, which was always one of my issues,  but where does that leave me?  Puzzled.  Let's wait until testing is over and then see.  I would like to know where the rest of these two bodies are though.

As I have said on this board before, if I'm wrong, I'll come on here and say so.    I still think the case of AA is the most intriguing mystery I've come across.


At least you have the guts to openly admit you are an AA supporter, unlike others who obviously are but deny it. I don't know why you don't believe she was FS, she looked just like FS, appeared the same time in the same place FS disappeared, and her DNA matched. Please read through my website, it points out some stuff you may not have thought of before. To me there is no doubt at all AA was FS.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 14, 2007, 05:18:46 AM
I am ALSO grateful to see someone admiting that. You know people are so scared to amit the truth. Anyway you can not just force them to believe in it they have to figure it out for themselves or I am glad your giving them information that would be helpful as to explain the reason why AA was not A.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 14, 2007, 06:46:32 AM
I thought FA directed us to play nice in here?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2007, 10:05:51 AM
Bear,
So long as APTM users are forbidden to pull quotes from the King and Wilson forum over here, we must ask that YOU stop placing any material posted here over on the K&W forum, specifically including quotes from me, and press releases translated specifically for OUR users here. Thank you for your cooperation.

FA


O-kay-doe-key.   I will not quote you or anyone without their permission from here to there or there to here from this day, Friday morning,  14 Sept 2007, f orward.

For those who find something over on King and Wilson of mine,  and,  you'd like me to repeat it here I'll be more than happy to repeat it here for farther discussion. 

AGRBear
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2007, 10:33:51 AM
Quote
  I have stated:  I do not nor have I ever thought AA was GD Anastasia, on the King and Wilson forum.

I voiced this because Annie had, once again,  stated disinformation which causes people to think that I thought otherwise.

Bear I know you SAY you never said it and in so many words you didn't. However, when 100% of your posts back up claimants, attack the idea of AA being FS, take up for Heinrich K., the cart story, quote File on the Tsar, and never EVER say or post anything contradictory to AA, it is very, very clear where you stand, lip service or not.

In case you haven't noticed,  my posts are usually trying to correct  your misinformation, just as I am,  now.

If you think my posts are 100 % about AA   you are mistaken.  I have spent hours and hours  giving information and discussing other subjects on this forum.  A good example is my thread about the Americans who fought in Russia against the Bolsheviks.  At this time,  I'm  on another thread giving people the testimony/memiors of  Sukorukov from a book that is nearly impossible to find.    As for Heinrich K. ,  people can go to the thread and see for themselves how you've given, once again,  misinformation and once it's been explained that you were mistaken and why,  it is easier for you, Annie,  to complain about my sources than to admit you were in error.

AGRBear 

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2007, 10:37:01 AM
Bear,
So long as APTM users are forbidden to pull quotes from the King and Wilson forum over here, we must ask that YOU stop placing any material posted here over on the K&W forum, specifically including quotes from me, and press releases translated specifically for OUR users here. Thank you for your cooperation.

FA

Thank you FA!

Bear I am extremely disappointed to learn that you done this.

Margarita

My error.  I will correct this error as soon as I have time.

AGRBear 
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2007, 12:26:31 PM
Evidently Greg King has already deleted my quotes from AP.

Sorry to have caused extra work for everyone.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 01:36:09 PM
Quote
  I have stated:  I do not nor have I ever thought AA was GD Anastasia, on the King and Wilson forum.

I voiced this because Annie had, once again,  stated disinformation which causes people to think that I thought otherwise.

Bear I know you SAY you never said it and in so many words you didn't. However, when 100% of your posts back up claimants, attack the idea of AA being FS, take up for Heinrich K., the cart story, quote File on the Tsar, and never EVER say or post anything contradictory to AA, it is very, very clear where you stand, lip service or not.

In case you haven't noticed,  my posts are usually trying to correct  your misinformation, just as I am,  now.

If you think my posts are 100 % about AA   you are mistaken.  I have spent hours and hours  giving information and discussing other subjects on this forum.  A good example is my thread about the Americans who fought in Russia against the Bolsheviks.  At this time,  I'm  on another thread giving people the testimony/memiors of  Sukorukov from a book that is nearly impossible to find.    As for Heinrich K. ,  people can go to the thread and see for themselves how you've given, once again,  misinformation and once it's been explained that you were mistaken and why,  it is easier for you, Annie,  to complain about my sources than to admit you were in error.

AGRBear 



Bear no 1 posts more misinfo than you. You never ever post anything against AA, you only help her & fight her being FS. If you are so great at posting info why not just one time post something against AA's  case? If not I rest mine.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 14, 2007, 01:50:49 PM
Lets all please stop being personal and stay OT. Thanks.

To be honest, Bear you DO have an agenda and have said so since day one. Your family story is that someone survived, so clearly you DON'T believe that they all died.  You question EVERYTHING that supports all the family being murdered at every turn. Heck, I remember somewhere on the other forum your saying something to the effect that "this old Bear would NEVER believe a word the Russians said" about the recent findings.

You always play slippery, fast and loose with any position, then cry foul when you don't like what people say. How about this Bear? For the RECORD state your position clearly and precisely here and now, of what you actually believe, think and have to say on the subject, then everyone will be on the same page.

1, Do you believe that anyone escaped alive in Ekaterinburg? yes or no.  If yes, WHO.
1.5  If believe Anastasia survived, since you already admit she was NOT Anna Manahan, then who do you believe she was?
2. Do you believe that the remains discovered previously in Ekaterinburg were the Imperial Family.
3.  Do you believe the recent discoveries are the missing children? If not, why not?

anyone else care to add questions for Bear to answer so we can all understand her position better?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 01:59:28 PM
1. Do you believe that anyone escaped alive in Ekaterinburg? yes or no.  If yes, WHO.
1.5  If believe Anastasia survived, since you already admit she was NOT Anna Manahan, then who do you believe she was?
2. Do you believe that the remains discovered previously in Ekaterinburg were the Imperial Family.
3.  Do you believe the recent discoveries are the missing children? If not, why not?


4. Since you say you don't believe AA was FS, who was she?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 14, 2007, 02:20:37 PM
Who was "Mr. X"?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 14, 2007, 02:42:57 PM
Bear,
So long as APTM users are forbidden to pull quotes from the King and Wilson forum over here, we must ask that YOU stop placing any material posted here over on the K&W forum, specifically including quotes from me, and press releases translated specifically for OUR users here. Thank you for your cooperation.

FA


O-kay-doe-key.   I will not quote you or anyone without their permission from here to there or there to here from this day, Friday morning,  14 Sept 2007, f orward.

For those who find something over on King and Wilson of mine,  and,  you'd like me to repeat it here I'll be more than happy to repeat it here for farther discussion. 

AGRBear

Now I am totally confused.  :)
I thought that the FA said anything posted on a public forum was fair game to be posted elsewhere. For the record, I will follow the rules. I would just like to say that this is the Internet and stuff gets cut and pasted all over the place all the time.
Lexi
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2007, 06:50:02 PM

...[in part]...

To be honest, Bear you DO have an agenda and have said so since day one. Your family story is that someone survived, so clearly you DON'T believe that they all died.  You question EVERYTHING that supports all the family being murdered at every turn. Heck, I remember somewhere on the other forum your saying something to the effect that "this old Bear would NEVER believe a word the Russians said" about the recent findings.

BEARS ANSWER: My agenda,  as you care to call it,  is quite different than most people's.  I was told a story when I was about 4 years old,  about  1947, which told me the events which occured to Nicholas II and the others on the night of 16/17 July in the Ipatiev House .  [When I remember where the post is,  I'll bring it here so everyone can read it.]  When I was  in High School , about 1956 o 1957,   I discovered the story  I had been told about the events of that eventful night  were different than what was in the history books.  For the last forty-some  years,  I've been trying to understand why anyone would tell a four year old such a story which was  accurate to a point and then be so completely wrong and then accurately tell me where the nine bodies would be found and that two would be missing.   

FA,  I told this  story  how I became interested in the  IF  when I first joined the forum so  this isn't anything new about me. 

Just because I was told a story doesn't mean  that I  want it to be true.   As I have stated many times,  I don't care where the truth takes me,  I'm just interested in the truth and enjoying the journey.


Quote
...How about this Bear? For the RECORD state your position clearly and precisely here and now, of what you actually believe, think and have to say on the subject, then everyone will be on the same page.


BEARS ANSWER:  Of course I can.

Quote
1, Do you believe that anyone escaped alive in Ekaterinburg? yes or no.  If yes, WHO. 

BEARS ANSWER:   I have no evidence that  Nicholas II and the others escaped  execution on the night of 16 July 1918.

Quote
1.5  If believe Anastasia survived, since you already admit she was NOT Anna Manahan, then who do you believe she was?
BEARS ANSWER:  I  have no evidence that  GD Anastasia or  GD Marie survived.
BEARS  ANSWER:  If  AA wasn't  FS,  then I haven't  the slighest idea who AA was.


Quote
2. Do you believe that the remains discovered previously in Ekaterinburg were the Imperial Family.
BEARS ANSWER:  Yes.

Quote
3.  Do you believe the recent discoveries are the missing children? If not, why not?
BEARS ANSWER:   Why would I come to the conclusion that  the missing children have been found on 29 July 2007 before the test results  are announced?    

 While we are waiting for the results:   I  do have a train load of questions.  If you want me to list some of  the questions I've mention over on that other forum,  I'll be happy to do so.   But,  I didn't think you wanted any kind of  discussion here.   Was I mistaken?

Quote
anyone else care to add questions for Bear to answer so we can all understand her position better?


Does anyone have any other questions?   

AGRBear
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: dmitri on September 14, 2007, 06:56:26 PM
I wonder what other myths will come out?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 06:59:46 PM
Very good politician's responses, bear, a lot of skirting the direct answer. But it does seem like you are still saying that while you have no proof anyone survived, you are not ruling it out. Is that so?

You also seem to not believe the new bones are those of the children. Is this because of the legend in your family?

Bear, you continually argue against any evidence that AA was FS, even the DNA. Why are you so sure she wasn't FS?

Since the DNA proved that AA wasn't AN and was 99.9% proven to be FS, what are your reasons for continuing to post things that seem to be saying that AA was not FS? Do you doubt the DNA tests or feel them part of some conspiracy? If not, why do you still not accept them?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2007, 07:46:13 PM
Who was "Mr. X"?

I labeled the man who told me the story as Mr. XXX because I never knew who he was accept that he was a friend/ acquaintance of my grandfather.

I never saw  this Mr.  XXX, again.

I always believe if I ever saw a photo of him that I will reconize him but  after all these years,  I'm not so sure anymore.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 08:09:18 PM
Will someone else please ask bear the questions I have posed to Owl and Eeyore, (remember that song?), since she is obviously ignoring mine?
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 14, 2007, 08:21:42 PM
[
 While we are waiting for the results:   I  do have a train load of questions.  If you want me to list some of  the questions I've mention over on that other forum,  I'll be happy to do so.   But,  I didn't think you wanted any kind of  discussion here.   Was I mistaken?


AGRBear

Bear,
Thank you for answering your questions. I hope now everyone will be on the same page.  As for your questions about the recent discoveries, OF COURSE we want you to discuss them here, if you care to.  There is no reason why they should not be discussed here, if you wish it.  Please start an appropriate thread for any question you have.

FA
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Belochka on September 14, 2007, 08:37:08 PM
...For the record, I will follow the rules.
Lexi

I hope that you will honor your promise here. Thank you.

Margarita
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 15, 2007, 11:58:19 PM
I don't doubt your intentions, Bear.  I would have one comment - rather than a question about your statements.  Those seeking the truth, risk finding it!

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: AGRBear on September 16, 2007, 10:11:02 AM
5{PrincessSophie link=topic=10082.msg285069#msg285069 date=1189918699]
I don't doubt your intentions, Bear.  I would have one comment - rather than a question about your statements.  Those seeking the truth, risk finding it!

Sophie
[/quote]

It seems you and others still don't grasp the concept that I don't care where the truth takes me.  Why don't I care?  I'm  not afraid  of what I'll find.

Now,  as  FA has suggested,  I'll  start a new thread about the train load of questions I have about the  latest graves  found on 29 July 2007.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Annie on September 16, 2007, 02:49:42 PM
Bear:

Quote
It seems you and others still don't grasp the concept that I don't care where the truth takes me.  Why don't I care?  I'm  not afraid  of what I'll find.

But the truth has already been found, and you refuse to accept it (DNA) Are you going to keep prancing in circles until you find the answers you like better though you never will? A long time ago I had a thread called 'The Truth- what will it take?' I still want to know.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 16, 2007, 03:43:23 PM
Bear:

Quote
It seems you and others still don't grasp the concept that I don't care where the truth takes me.  Why don't I care?  I'm  not afraid  of what I'll find.

But the truth has already been found, and you refuse to accept it (DNA) Are you going to keep prancing in circles until you find the answers you like better though you never will? A long time ago I had a thread called 'The Truth- what will it take?' I still want to know.
Of couse the truth has been revealed to us. Yet, They continue to believe in what they want. How long will it take to accept the truth? good question Annie.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 17, 2007, 01:04:07 AM
5{PrincessSophie link=topic=10082.msg285069#msg285069 date=1189918699]
I don't doubt your intentions, Bear.  I would have one comment - rather than a question about your statements.  Those seeking the truth, risk finding it!

Sophie

It seems you and others still don't grasp the concept that I don't care where the truth takes me.  Why don't I care?  I'm  not afraid  of what I'll find.

Now,  as  FA has suggested,  I'll  start a new thread about the train load of questions I have about the  latest graves  found on 29 July 2007.

AGRBear
[/quote]

Bear, no need to react in this way.  The truth can be a two edged sword for anyone seeking it - not just you. 

Sophie
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 17, 2007, 09:57:19 AM
...For the record, I will follow the rules.
Lexi

I hope that you will honor your promise here. Thank you.

Margarita

Do you have any reason to think that I wouldn't Margarita? Or are you just being catty?
Lexi
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Lemur on September 17, 2007, 10:04:14 AM
...For the record, I will follow the rules.
Lexi

I hope that you will honor your promise here. Thank you.

Margarita

Do you have any reason to think that I wouldn't Margarita? Or are you just being catty?
Lexi

We have to leave it at the honor system, since we won't be able to check up because aren't allowed to read what's going on over there. You all can come see what we have say, because this is an open and free forum with nothing to hide.

Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: lexi4 on September 17, 2007, 02:30:03 PM
...For the record, I will follow the rules.
Lexi

I hope that you will honor your promise here. Thank you.

Margarita

Do you have any reason to think that I wouldn't Margarita? Or are you just being catty?
Lexi

We have to leave it at the honor system, since we won't be able to check up because aren't allowed to read what's going on over there. You all can come see what we have say, because this is an open and free forum with nothing to hide.



What are you talking about Lemur? I don't recall asking you. My response was to Margarita.
Lexi
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 17, 2007, 02:41:28 PM
We have to leave it at the honor system, since we won't be able to check up because aren't allowed to read what's going on over there. You all can come see what we have say, because this is an open and free forum with nothing to hide.



All you need do is register to read the posts there.  It is not a "closed, iron curtain" forum.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on September 17, 2007, 02:59:08 PM
WHY are we even having this particular discussion??
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 17, 2007, 03:21:01 PM

All you need do is register to read the posts there.  It is not a "closed, iron curtain" forum.

In theory ;-)  Sorry, FA :-x
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 19, 2007, 05:05:50 PM
We are now officially "Off Topic". This is a warning - either post about the topic or don't post.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on September 19, 2007, 05:33:24 PM
Ok
I believe in Survivors.
My reaction is - wait for the DNA results.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Ivan Komarov on September 24, 2007, 09:11:04 PM
My reaction:

NEVER!

Haha.  Although I'm pretty certain there's closure on this (and not bothered, seeing as the "survivors" would probably be dead by now anyways), I'm still not 100% sure it's them.  Let's say, 99.9%.  ;)

At the very least, I hope they are given a decent burial like the rest if so.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on October 01, 2007, 03:50:18 AM
If people will deny September 11, July 7, the Holocaust...they will deny this, too.
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: TimM on May 12, 2010, 11:15:50 AM
 
Quote
I'm thinking particularly of Peter Kurth

Does the man still believe that AA was Anastasia, DESPITE that DNA has totally debunked her.  If he does, i have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell him!
Title: Re: Reactions from those who believe(d) in Survivors
Post by: Forum Admin on May 12, 2010, 12:07:38 PM
From what I understand, Peter Kurth accepts the DNA testing results.