Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: AGRBear on July 14, 2007, 07:13:21 PM

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2007, 07:13:21 PM
This thread isn't about AA or her claim to be GD Anastasia.

If FS was murdered by Grossmann then  AA couldn't have been  FS.

AGRBear

But don't you see, there is evidence that the police agreed with Ernie's ID of AA as FS, meaning not only was AA FS, but that FS wasn't murdered by Grossman. Case closed.

When did GD Ernst Ludwig of Hesse  ever meet  AA or FS?   Far as I know he never met  AA.

The Berlin Police,  before the Nazi period (1932),   who handled  AA's case  or Grossmann's case  did not  connect AA and FS as being the same person.   Even after  GD Ernst's  detectives claimed  AA was FS and saw whatever it was  found,  the police did not  make a statement that AA and FS were the same person.   

Yes,   around 1940,    Drescher, who was in the Gestopo  [Nazi police],  signed documents  making some kind of  acknowledgement that AA was FS.  I assume these documents  were entered  by   the lawyers who represented  the Romanovs  in AA's trial.  Evidently whatever  the documents were,   they  did not convince the judges  AA was FS. .

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 14, 2007, 10:24:23 PM
He was with the Berlin police. And the Grossman case was such a 'big factor' that it wasn't even once mentioned in the triail! Shows how much it meant to them. You never see either side saying 'hey she couldn't be FS she'd dead' quite the opposite. FS was a big part of the trial. If she was so 'dead' she wouldn't have been. This really, really isn't a viable theory.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2007, 11:04:20 AM
CORRECTION:
New Timeline List - 18 Aug 2005   
 
...[in part]...
>>> 1920<<< 
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS 
 
....


According to Felix,  who's birthday is the 17th of Feb.,  he received a birthday card from his sister late and in the card she tells him that she's sorry that she was late but had been very busy.

From what I've been told,  the German mail was and is dependable.  In Feb. 1920  the mail with FS' card to her brother, if true to form,  would have taken only one day to reach it's distination.  And,  it doesn't matter if Felix was in his family village or in  Ammendorf-bei-Halle  where we know he worked after leaving his home village.

The envelope which would have carried the postmark date can no longer be found,  so,  we only have Felix's memory of it's exsistence and the time frame.

 If the card was recieved one day late, (I don't recall how late Felix said the card was)  this would mean FS   sent her brother a card the same day AA had  jumped into the canal.   


AGRBear

PS  It has been sometime since I've reread this thread.  I'm going to have to take some time this week and go over what I've written and  may make some more corrections and additions.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2007, 11:45:52 AM
He was with the Berlin police. And the Grossman case was such a 'big factor' that it wasn't even once mentioned in the triail! Shows how much it meant to them. You never see either side saying 'hey she couldn't be FS she'd dead' quite the opposite. FS was a big part of the trial. If she was so 'dead' she wouldn't have been. This really, really isn't a viable theory.
 

The Romanov lawyers did not  proved AA was FS  in AA's trial.

Why couldn't they?  The Romanov lawyers and the judges  had more the evdience about FS then we, now, have...   

Annie, are you   assuming the Grossmann case wasn't mentioned or is this a fact?    I could understand it if  the Romanov lawyers wouldn't have brought up Grossmann but it seems to me  AA's lawyers would have at least mentioned it or passed this evidence to the judges to review......

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 15, 2007, 01:37:54 PM
CORRECTION:
New Timeline List - 18 Aug 2005   
 
...[in part]...
>>> 1920<<< 
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS 
 
....


According to Felix,  who's birthday is the 17th of Feb.,  he received a birthday card from his sister late and in the card she tells him that she's sorry that she was late but had been very busy.

From what I've been told,  the German mail was and is dependable.  In Feb. 1920  the mail with FS' card to her brother, if true to form,  would have taken only one day to reach it's distination.  And,  it doesn't matter if Felix was in his family village or in  Ammendorf-bei-Halle  where we know he worked after leaving his home village.

The envelope which would have carried the postmark date can no longer be found,  so,  we only have Felix's memory of it's exsistence and the time frame.

 If the card was recieved one day late, (I don't recall how late Felix said the card was)  this would mean FS   sent her brother a card the same day AA had  jumped into the canal.   


Bear, you really do need to consider reality instead of what one person who is obsessed with AA would like to believe. In those days, the mail was a lot slower than it is now, and adding the problems of postwar  Europe, and the political upheaval, it's not realistic that there would be 'one day delivery' like there is now in major metropolitan and surrounding areas. It's unrealistic, and there is no proof. Common sense can tell you otherwise.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 15, 2007, 01:41:40 PM


Annie, are you   assuming the Grossmann case wasn't mentioned or is this a fact?    I could understand it if  the Romanov lawyers wouldn't have brought up Grossmann but it seems to me  AA's lawyers would have at least mentioned it or passed this evidence to the judges to review......

AGRBear


You'd think her side would have tried that, but it seems they didn't since I've never seen anything about it anywhere, even in Kurth's or Lovell's books! So it really looks like it wasn't an issue and nobody believed it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 16, 2007, 07:35:02 AM
Annie,  first of all the war had been over for 18 months.    You seem to think Europe was in chaos for years afterwards.  People try to return to normal as fast as they can and one way of doing that is get the infrastructure up and running to a pre-war level.  Even during WW1 and 2 in the UK  the postal services were as  normal as possible given the circumstances and by 1920 things would be much better.    I see no reason why Germany would be different and  the Germans have a reputation for efficiency for a reason. 

 Is there any way we can find out -  does anyone out there have good enough German to do a bit of research on this? 

Also one thing that has always struck me  - would FS really try to commit suicide on her brother's birthday and yet still bother to send him a card?  If she was in that bad a state, I doubt very much if she would. 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2007, 09:13:16 AM
A little German postal history:

>>In 1925, and thus even after a sharp reduction in the number of those working in the German public service as a consequence of territorial losses in World War I and severe economic problems, there were still over 2.72 million public employees - more than in any other country in central or western Europe and nearly as many as in the United States, although the U.S. population was almost twice as large as Germany's.(5) The percentage of the German work force employed in the public service was also singularly high (8.50%).(6) Remarkably, the Federal Republic emerged with a public service that was no smaller when viewed in relative terms - despite the turbulence and the upheavals of the Nazi era and the occupation period. Indeed, its dimensions had increased even further.  [...in part.....]

These public employees performed a wide variety of tasks. Many worked in administration at the city, county, state, or federal levels, others worked for the police, for fire departments, hospitals and other health-care institutions, the public schools, or the (exclusively state-run) university system. Still others were employed in a multitude of public utilities and enterprises, such as gasworks and water companies, sewage treatment plants, most electric companies, and virtually all urban transport systems.<<

>>.... a quarter of a million worked for the Federal Postal Service (Bundespost) in 1950, which not only was responsible for delivering letters and packages, but also ran the telephone and telegraph systems.) Furthermore, all local post offices provided banking facilities as well as a savings and loan service, both of which were widely used.<<

We're not talking about our US Postal system which hasn't been the same since the Pony Express ended :)....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2007, 09:20:54 AM
A source which should make Annie happy since it is not from Peter Kurth or Summers & Mangold:


p. 250 Massie's THE ROMANOVS THE FINAL CHAPTER tells us:

In February 1920 her favorite brother, Felix, received a last message from her.

(...in part...)

AGRBear


Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2007, 09:56:05 AM
Correction:

*****AA jumped off the Bendler Bridge and into the water of the Landwehr canal and was reported to have been fished out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman   at or about 9:00 PM on the evening of Tuesday, 17 Feb. 1920 and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse.

I have no idea why I wrote the wrong date in my earlier posts.

FS sent a birthday wish to Felix, her brother, who received it on or about 17 Feb 1920

****AA jumped into the canal and was placed in a hospital on 18 Feb. 1920 and then sent to Dalldorf Asylum.

FS was reported to the police as missing in March by the Wingenders.

Burno G. testified in court that he met FS in Danzig where she and some girlfriends were about to go to London and this was July of 1920.

The police told FS's family that they believed FS was killed 13 Aug 1920 by Grossmann.



AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 16, 2007, 10:01:47 AM
"The war had been over for 18 months"

Well, it took a lot longer for things to settle and go on. It does everywhere. Even here in the US after the Civil War, things were hard in the south for years. It always is on the losing side, and Germany, despite the claims of how efficient they were, was no exception. You have to consider, people were dead, buildings destroyed, the entire government fallen and gone and the new one in turmoil. Nobody just went home and started living like normal again just because the war ended. There was lasting damage and much change. I have posted links proving there were severe problems between 1919 and 1923, especially in March 1920!!

After 1923, things got better for the next several years, 1924-29. Those were the infamous cabaret times you hear about. This is why the comment posted by bear about 1925 was not as desperate as the ones I showed you of the earlier 20s. Of course, things were still not great, and this is why Hitler eventually came to power but this is another story. What I am trying to say is things were not running smoothly in the days when FS first went missing. The police did not have the time and resources to devote to the case at the time, but when Ernie did, he found AA = FS very easily, though AA supporters like to think if this as some kind of payoff or conspiracy  ::)

I do not believe the mail ran on a one day service back then even IF things were not so bad WHICH THEY WERE! Realistically, they did not have the machinery, vehicles and other methods we have for delivering mail today. No way. And would she send a birthday card and then commit suicide? I who knows, I am not FS. You would had to have asked AA because she was the one who was FS.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 16, 2007, 10:10:11 AM
Now I have a completely out-of-the-box HYPOTHETICAL idea of why she sent the card then attempted suicide. Maybe she thought if she made contact with him he would come looking for her, a "cry for help" type of thing for a hurting young woman. So maybe she decided to "jump" when he did not show, or perhaps she never intended to kill herself but be pulled out(ever wonder why she chose a canal instead of a high bridge over a real river if she really wanted to die?) as she was and have him come "save" her? Obviously, the family did not come. You can imagine anything you want here, AA supporters will say it was because she was not FS, I could say it is because they were estranged, not close, or because of financial reasons did not stay in close contact or were unable to travel. We also do not know the actual date the card was mailed or recieved. We do not have a copy of it, only word of mouth which could be incorrect. But it does not matter anyway we now know AA was FS, we can only speculate on her reasons for doing what she did, not her identity.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2007, 10:16:35 AM
The birthday card was mailed in Feb. and received  (according to Massie) in Feb.,  so,  I'm not sure what Kapps putsch in March [which lasted just four days]  has to do with this particular piece of mail.

I'll keep looking for information about mail service in Feb. of 1920 in the Weimer Republic.  Looks like I might have to go into some German web sites.

Meanwhile,  Annie,  maybe,  you could find a source telling us that the mail wasn't being delievered in Feb. 1920 in one or two or three or four or five days, instead of making assumptions.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 16, 2007, 10:35:53 AM
Now I have a completely out-of-the-box HYPOTHETICAL idea of why she sent the card then attempted suicide. Maybe she thought if she made contact with him he would come looking for her, a "cry for help" type of thing for a hurting young woman. So maybe she decided to "jump" when he did not show, or perhaps she never intended to kill herself but be pulled out(ever wonder why she chose a canal instead of a high bridge over a real river if she really wanted to die?) as she was and have him come "save" her? Obviously, the family did not come. You can imagine anything you want here, AA supporters will say it was because she was not FS, I could say it is because they were estranged, not close, or because of financial reasons did not stay in close contact or were unable to travel. We also do not know the actual date the card was mailed or recieved. We do not have a copy of it, only word of mouth which could be incorrect. But it does not matter anyway we now know AA was FS, we can only speculate on her reasons for doing what she did, not her identity.

The information was from FS' brother Felix,  and,  it is her brother who has voiced that he received his birthday card late and that had said she was sorry because she had been so busy....

This memory of Felix became so important to both sides,  pro and anti  AA=GD Anastasia,  that several things occured. 

(1) The envelope and then the card has been misplaced /  destroyed.
(2) According to Peter Kurth's book  ANASTASIA  p. 323-4:  >>  "We were right back at the beginning," said Donminique Aucleres,  "Ground zero."  Her point was proved when the lawyers began the tedious process of reviewing the facts--the simple dates, places, and times of the "Anaastasia" affiar, which each of the had to accept as accurate before the trial could proceed.  Already Klaus Wagner, the new corespondent for the Frankfurter Allegmeine, had been "irriated by the profusion of details and the endless possibilites" for arguemnt.  Could it be that the judges and lawyers were only now, after fourty-four years, finally determining the exact date of Anastasia's suicide atempt?  But so they were.  Efforts had been made after destruction of the Berlin dossiers to move the date ahrad from February 17 to February 27, 1920, a datate that better coincided with the alleged disappearance of Franziska Schanzkowksa.<<

The date 17 Feb. 1920  AA jumped into the canal was not changed.

Massie tells us in his book:  Felix, [who's birthday was 17 Feb.,]  recieved his [late] birthday card in Feb. of 1920

The date the Wingenders recorded with the police that FS was missing was and still thought to be  9 March 1920.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 16, 2007, 11:54:16 AM
"The war had been over for 18 months"

Well, it took a lot longer for things to settle and go on. It does everywhere. Even here in the US after the Civil War, things were hard in the south for years.

I don't think you can compare the Civil War with WWI -  there had been massive progress in lots of ways between 1865 and 1918.  We are talking 50 years during which there had been the fastest leaps in industrialisation, motorisation, etc.

I do not believe the mail ran on a one day service back then even IF things were not so bad WHICH THEY WERE! .

If it was like the UK they would have had twice daily deliveries and collections from post boxes  at least twice a day.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 16, 2007, 11:58:30 AM
Now I have a completely out-of-the-box HYPOTHETICAL idea of why she sent the card then attempted suicide. Maybe she thought if she made contact with him he would come looking for her, a "cry for help" type of thing for a hurting young woman. So maybe she decided to "jump" when he did not show, or perhaps she never intended to kill herself but be pulled out(ever wonder why she chose a canal instead of a high bridge over a real river if she really wanted to die?) as she was and have him come "save" her?

But if the postal service was not working properly - and she would have known that if it was the case - why would she send a cry for help by letter, knowing that it would not reach him for days?  Also according to Felix's testimony, she basically wrote "sorry this is going to be late for your birthday" so again that would suggest either she knew it would arrive late or she posted it after his birthday. 

Also, do you know how deep the canal was?  Some canals are deeper than some rivers. It's a big canal - see the attached link to a photograph of the Landwehr Canal -  http://homepages.nyu.edu/~tmk1/Berlin/Pages/Image26.html.  Also, could she swim?  I have no idea if Anastasia could - or how well - and certainly no idea about FS but I doubt it.

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 16, 2007, 12:49:16 PM
Okay, this is lame. She may not have known the mail was slow, but forget the 'cry for help' it was just a dumb guess. I don't know how deep the canal was. I seriously doubt they had any mail going as good as the UK at that time. But I do know that things were very bad in post WWI Berlin and there is much evidence to prove it. And speaking of evidence to prove it, we do of course have proof that AA wasn't AN so it doesn't matter. Whatever her reason, whatever the timing of the mail, we do know that it was FS who jumped into the canal.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on July 16, 2007, 04:08:51 PM
Plus AA/Franziska Schanzkowska looks absolutely nothing like Anastasia, in my opinion. For example, AA had thick lips whereas Anastasia had gracefully thing lips.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 17, 2007, 06:46:44 AM
Plus AA/Franziska Schanzkowska looks absolutely nothing like Anastasia, in my opinion. For example, AA had thick lips whereas Anastasia had gracefully thing lips.

I think this belongs in the "photographic comparison" thread. 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2007, 09:27:10 AM
Attempting sucide is a kind-of cry for help in itself.  Unfortunately,  to many people are sucessfulll in their atempts and it's too late to help.

Now I have a completely out-of-the-box HYPOTHETICAL idea of why she sent the card then attempted suicide. Maybe she thought if she made contact with him he would come looking for her, a "cry for help" type of thing for a hurting young woman. So maybe she decided to "jump" when he did not show, or perhaps she never intended to kill herself but be pulled out(ever wonder why she chose a canal instead of a high bridge over a real river if she really wanted to die?) as she was and have him come "save" her?

But if the postal service was not working properly - and she would have known that if it was the case - why would she send a cry for help by letter, knowing that it would not reach him for days?  Also according to Felix's testimony, she basically wrote "sorry this is going to be late for your birthday" so again that would suggest either she knew it would arrive late or she posted it after his birthday. 

Also, do you know how deep the canal was?  Some canals are deeper than some rivers. It's a big canal - see the attached link to a photograph of the Landwehr Canal -  http://homepages.nyu.edu/~tmk1/Berlin/Pages/Image26.html.  Also, could she swim?  I have no idea if Anastasia could - or how well - and certainly no idea about FS but I doubt it.



Never thought of looking for a photo of the Landwehr Canal.

Bet that waters cold in the Feb. month.


Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2007, 09:39:27 AM
Since the German court had convicted Grossmann of having killed  FS and several other women,    I would  think that AA's lawyers would have shown this as a fact.

We need to ask someone who has read the trial's transcripts to know if they did or didn't. 

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 09:51:59 AM
Since the German court had convicted Grossmann of having killed  FS and several other women,    I would  think that AA's lawyers would have shown this as a fact.

We need to ask someone who has read the trial's transcripts to know if they did or didn't. 

AGRBear


Bear, you overlooked the answer from, of all people, PK! Here's what he posted on the 'other' forum:

Quote
The Grossman matter was very often mentioned "at trial" (do remember that the "trial" lasted from 1938 to 1970), but finally everyone agreed to drop it, as the details of Grossman's murders could no longer be established or confirmed. The name "Sasnovski" (or whatever) was many times mentioned; was this just a quick note that Grossman had made, or what? It it *certainly* true that FS's family had been told she was one of Grossman's victims, and whether this was true or not, it is something that unfortunately lies outside the bounds of "contemporary research," They (the S.'s) certainly believed it, until Darmstadt's detective, Martin Knopf, came and told them otherwise.

Obviously, there wasn't enough evidence to take it seriously as a valid topic of the trial. I always thought Grossman theory was just a quickie way of closing a case, and they ended up with egg on their faces later. Ernie's people were able to investigate fully where they had not and this is why his people got the right answer, one that has since been verified by the DNA. It's a shame Ernie didn't live until the trial, he could have fought and maybe ended the silly claim long ago.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 09:56:00 AM
Every time you see a 'reenactment' of AA's dive into the canal, it's portrayed as little more than a ditch, so that is the image I had of it. I wonder if it was that wide back then too. I'm sure it was cold when FS took that jump. Because regardless of the details, that's who jumped. FS.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 17, 2007, 10:52:49 AM
Are we allowed to post quotes from "the other forum" on this? 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2007, 11:18:54 AM
Are we allowed to post quotes from "the other forum" on this? 


I don't know.

Copyrights of another forum might be in question.  FA????

And,  please,  Annie,  if you find a quote,  could you add the link. because  I do not recall reading Peter Kurth's post which you've posted  on the other thread,  which I assume is  King and Wilson's, which I haven't read since yesterday.   It would be helpful to me and everyone else reading your posts.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on July 17, 2007, 03:02:52 PM
Attempting sucide is a kind-of cry for help in itself.  Unfortunately,  to many people are sucessfulll in their atempts and it's too late to help.


AGRBear

It's pretty sad if you ask me. I don't know what you think, but doesn't AA jumping into the canal sort of remind you of Elaine of Astolat . . .?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2007, 04:55:35 PM
"The war had been over for 18 months"

Well, it took a lot longer for things to settle and go on. It does everywhere. Even here in the US after the Civil War, things were hard in the south for years. It always is on the losing side, and Germany, despite the claims of how efficient they were, was no exception. You have to consider, people were dead, buildings destroyed, the entire government fallen and gone and the new one in turmoil. Nobody just went home and started living like normal again just because the war ended. There was lasting damage and much change. I have posted links proving there were severe problems between 1919 and 1923, especially in March 1920!!

...[in part]....

Because Annie wanted a little more proof  for the year 1920,  here is an envelope with a postage stamp on 12 March 1920, the day of Kapp's putsch.  Not sure I'll be lucky enough to find one for the 13, 14, 15 or 16  of March.  Best I can do, today  ;D

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/1920BerlinLetPost.jpg)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2007, 05:36:28 PM
Too late to modify above.

Forgot to say this letter was sent from Berlin to USA,  12 March 1920.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 08:10:31 PM
Because Annie wanted a little more proof  for the year 1920,  here is an envelope with a postage stamp on 12 March 1920, the day of Kapp's putsch.  Not sure I'll be lucky enough to find one for the 13, 14, 15 or 16  of March.  Best I can do, today

AGRBear

maybe that's because

*The Kapp Putsch took place on March 13, 1920, involving a group of Freikorps troops who gained control of Berlin and installed Wolfgang Kapp (a right-wing journalist) as chancellor. The national government fled to Stuttgart and called for a general strike. While Kapp's vacillating nature did not help matters, the strike crippled Germany's ravaged economy and the Kapp government collapsed after only four days on March 17.

I never said there was no mail, but that it was surely slowed by all the problems going on.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 08:20:50 PM
I don't post a link to other forums because I don't think it's a proper thing under the circumstances and you know what I mean. I use certain quotes as a 'source' if that's what you want, but if that's not okay either, I will stop it.

Grossmann case CLOSED.

Slam.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 18, 2007, 06:05:38 AM

But the putsch took place almost a month after AA was fished out of the canal and after FS posted her letter - Felix said he received it two weeks later which is only end of Feb.

So I don't think that the Kapp issue actually has any relevant to the postal system at the time the birthday card was posted, does it?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 18, 2007, 06:25:56 AM
I don't post a link to other forums because I don't think it's a proper thing under the circumstances and you know what I mean. I use certain quotes as a 'source' if that's what you want, but if that's not okay either, I will stop it.

Grossmann case CLOSED.

Slam.

I am delighted to see you quoting from Pk and hope you will continue to do so, but slamming the door doesn't close the case - except in your mind.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 18, 2007, 07:21:12 AM
Actually it's quite the opposite- there's only anything to this 'case' in YOUR mind!

I feel I have provided sufficient proof that no one, even during the trial, believed FS was killed by Grossmann. It was disregarded in court, the Berlin police agreed with the Darmstadt ID of AA by FS, and FS continued to be a big part of the trial, and the AA story, right up until the DNA proved it was her after all. There really is NOTHING left to the Grossmann theory, except, in your mind. (and bear's) FS was NOT murdered by Grossmann, sorry, I know how badly you want to be rid of FS but she lived!

How ironic AA supporters can't see and be happy that there really was a lost girl found after all- FS! She wasn't dead after all. She didn't die after all, but lived on as AA, pretending to be AN.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 18, 2007, 07:41:27 AM
The point is, FS wasn't reported missing until March 9. The Putch broke out on the 13th, (which the police joined!) and there was likely unrest leading up to it. The police had much bigger things on their minds than a missing girl, who at the time wasn't anyone special, and far from the only person missing in the city. What I'm saying is, due to problems in the city, the case slipped through the cracks in the early, crucial days of the investigation when the connection between AA and FS could have been made. That's why they didn't find it! But Ernie's men, able to devote much time and resources to it (using Berlin's records!) were able to ID AA as FS and turned out to be right.

I feel this is quite a bombshell to explain why they didn't make the connection right away, though AA supporrters will want you to believe it was because they were two different people, sure, like Superman and Clark Kent. The lamest thing is, IF this "Miss unknown" had been someone famous, like AN, don't you think someone would have found that out? If those pictures of her were so circulated why didn't someone say 'hey look it's the GD Anastasia!' Could it be, oh, because it wasn't her, and looked nothing like her, until she started posing and biting her lips? This is really ridiculous the more I even think about it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 18, 2007, 11:29:27 AM
The point is, FS wasn't reported missing until March 9. The Putch broke out on the 13th, (which the police joined!) and there was likely unrest leading up to it. The police had much bigger things on their minds than a missing girl, who at the time wasn't anyone special, and far from the only person missing in the city. What I'm saying is, due to problems in the city, the case slipped through the cracks in the early, crucial days of the investigation when the connection between AA and FS could have been made. That's why they didn't find it! But Ernie's men, able to devote much time and resources to it (using Berlin's records!) were able to ID AA as FS and turned out to be right.

I feel this is quite a bombshell to explain why they didn't make the connection right away, though AA supporrters will want you to believe it was because they were two different people, sure, like Superman and Clark Kent. The lamest thing is, IF this "Miss unknown" had been someone famous, like AN, don't you think someone would have found that out? If those pictures of her were so circulated why didn't someone say 'hey look it's the GD Anastasia!' Could it be, oh, because it wasn't her, and looked nothing like her, until she started posing and biting her lips? This is really ridiculous the more I even think about it.

But the police did devote time and resources to it - AA's photograph was sent to all police stations and people from as far as Posen were brought to see her for possible identification - that is a fact and that fact alone shows how far her details were sent, indicating that it certainly did not slip through the cracks and that this case was taken very seriously.  It would be very interesting to know how many missing persons cases there were in Berlin in February 1920.  Also the putsch only last FOUR DAYS and was unlikely to have had much  affect on the police force - if they could still do their job properly during the four years of the war then I am sure they could during four days of the attempted coup.

Also your argument about circulation of the photos applies to FS - she had a job, she did not live in a house with only the Wingenders, they were not the only people who knew her - why did no one come forward until 1927 and then only Doris Wingender (and don't forget Doris was paid on the condition that she identified AA as FS!).  As for looking nothing like AA - that first photo looks nothing like FS either - it looks like a dazed girl who has been picked up by police and fingerprinted, photographed etc as though she had commited a crime (and in 1920 maybe attempted suicide was still considered a crime in Germany). Frankly I think those photos look like a completely different, third, person.

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 18, 2007, 02:02:53 PM
Quote
Also the putsch only last FOUR DAYS and was unlikely to have had much  affect on the police force

As a matter of fact, they JOINED it!

In March 1920, the Free Corps took over Berlin. Ebert and the government had to leave the city. The Free Corps were lead by Wolfgang Kapp - a right wing nationalist who hated the government for signing the  Versailles Treaty. This incident is called the Kapp Putsch. A putsch is an attempt to take over a country by the use of force. The Free Corps was joined by the Berlin police.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/wei2.htm

You seem to be missing the point. While the complete ouster of the government in March 1920 certainly did cause a lot of problems in Berlin life, and especially public offices (funded by the gov't) were not running normally, it wasn't only those 'four days!' There were severe problems from as soon as the war ended thru 1923, and I have posted MUCH on this in the "Grossmann" and "Final Frontier" threads WITH DOCUMENTATION. Please read it there, I'm not going through it all again.

I also address the picture issue there. If it was circulated, not many people had the time to look at it or care, and how many people who couldn't afford food bought a newspaper? She wasn't famous like she is now, so it's not strange she wasn't recognized. IF she had been AN, surely somebody would have recognized that, eh? So that fact kind of self defeats the AA supporters throwing up how nobody recognized the pic!

I agree that her mugshots don't look like AN or AA, but the reason they don't look like AA is because she had not yet started pretending to be her, pose like her and bite her lips. That's the real FS/AA there. I think it would look a lot more like the FS pic if it were clearer, but it's faded, and if anyone 'retouches' it AA supporters yell conspiracy. Still the shape of the face, hair part and placing of the features is much like AA, because AA and FS are one in the same.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 19, 2007, 08:00:20 AM

How ironic AA supporters can't see and be happy that there really was a lost girl found after all- FS! She wasn't dead after all. She didn't die after all, but lived on as AA, pretending to be AN.

Actually i wouldn't be particularly bothered  if she was FS since my feelings about this case are not as strong as yours obviously are.  Franciszka had a miserable life and no one seemed to care at all.  Who knows what we would have done in her shoes (size 39, not size 36 :D) ?  At least if she had been AA, things would have improved dramatically for her.  Unfortunately there is too much conflicting evidence for me to believe that she is. 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 19, 2007, 08:27:57 AM
I am not missing the point.  I am not disputing the civil disturbance, post war problems, etc and I already knew some of the police joined in.  I have already looked at the threads mentioned (and indeed read back over most of the old ones)  but nothing I have read there convinces me that the police - even if they joined in a four day putsch -   still did not do their job properly for the majority of 1920.   There was more than one police force - like modern Italy for example, they had different types of police - a detective force, a city police and riot squads, small city police, rural police, the old imperial police etc.    Obviously more than one force would operate in Berlin - were they all involved in the putsch?   

I also have no idea if AA's pic was in the papers but if you re-read my post, I did not say that.  It WAS sent out to all police stations to compare with reported missing persons (as FS was in March) and obviously they were working on the case as several families of missing persons came to check her out when she was in the asylum.  They came from various places and  included a family from Posen (the same area as FS's family)  - this shows the system was working and the police were doing their job.  This has been mentioned several times on this board  but you do not address this.  As for the fact that no-one in Germany recognised her as AN - who would?  I doubt if AN's family in Germany were regularly sent police reports of missing persons in case they knew one of them!!   As I have already  said, there were many more people in Berlin who knew FS and only one - a PAID witness - came forward seven years later.   

I do think the pic of FS looks very like a couple of photos of AA.  However,  pictures are very subjective - someone has pointed out that in some photos  AA also looks like Amelia Earhart - fortunately Amelia did not disappear at the same time!   There are however more pics of AA that I find not just similar to AN,  but that show a  overall family resemblance to AA's female relations which I find more convincing as anyone can resemble another person but not usually other members of their family. 

But let's face it - you will never change your mind and unless someone produces more information about FS I am not likely to change my mine.  Everyone else here seems to agree with everything you say but  wouldn't it be dull without me and Bear?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 19, 2007, 04:59:38 PM
nothing I have read there convinces me that the police - even if they joined in a four day putsch -   still did not do their job properly

There is no defense for this, because obviously they DID NOT do their job correctly, probably because of all the problems going on, because they failed to make the match right away. Those early days of the investigation being disturbed hurt a lot, and this was not one of their top priorities under the circumstances of the turmoil of the times. Ernie's people found the answer, and DNA backs it up. The fact, yes, fact, is that AA was FS and they missed making this ID so they did mess up!

Quote
As for the fact that no-one in Germany recognised her as AN - who would?  I doubt if AN's family in Germany were regularly sent police reports of missing

This arugment is really a shoot in the foot for AA supporters, since if this pic was as well traveled as you say, and IF she were AN, someone WOULD have noticed it and said something. Nobody said 'Look! It's the Grand Duchess Anastasia!" she was not ID'd because she was ANONYMOUS, poor, a nobody, and didn't stick out in anyone's mind. All that changed for FS after she became AA/"Anastasia."

 
Quote
As I have already  said, there were many more people in Berlin who knew FS and only one - a PAID witness - came forward seven years later.   

How do you know she was paid? And how many pro AA witnesses were doing it for shares in Grandanour corporation?

quote from Dr. Von Berenberg-Gossler, attorney opposing AA in the 50's:

Dr. Von Berenberg-Gossler believes that although wishful thinking in Russian émigré circles played a part in the affair money was the principal motivation behind Anderson's claims, the supposed lost fortune of the tsar estimated at US$80.000.000.

"I believe it was at the beginning of the 1930's a corporation (Grandanor) came into existence," he says, "which sold certificates in proportion to tsarist gold roubles allegedly held by the Bank of England and redeemable if or when Anderson should "inherit" said funds. Naturally these papers were not worth anything, they served only to enrich the initiator".


You are right you'll never change my mind, but I don't know what else can jump up and bite you to prove AA was FS, because she was.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 20, 2007, 07:06:09 AM
There is no defense for this, because obviously they DID NOT do their job correctly, probably because of all the problems going on, because they failed to make the match right away. Those early days of the investigation being disturbed hurt a lot, and this was not one of their top priorities under the circumstances of the turmoil of the times. Ernie's people found the answer, and DNA backs it up. The fact, yes, fact, is that AA was FS and they missed making this ID so they did mess up! 


You have still not yet shown any proof that any disturbances caused problems or they did not do their job properly.   My illustrations show that  they did.

Quote
As for the fact that no-one in Germany recognised her as AN - who would?  I doubt if AN's family in Germany were regularly sent police reports of missing

This arugment is really a shoot in the foot for AA supporters, since if this pic was as well traveled as you say, and IF she were AN, someone WOULD have noticed it and said something. Nobody said 'Look! It's the Grand Duchess Anastasia!" she was not ID'd because she was ANONYMOUS, poor, a nobody, and didn't stick out in anyone's mind. All that changed for FS after she became AA/"Anastasia."
 

Firstly it's not me saying it was well travelled - it reached as far as Posen so there is no disputing this.  Secondly I believe your  argument is spurious as the photo only went to the police in Germany and the family - a foreign royal family don't forget, not German - were  believed by many to have died.  I have a book dated 1930 which shows a picture of the Ipatiev House and "the well outside it, down which the bodies of the family were thrown" - this shows what misinformation, disinformation and downright confusion there was as late as that.  As has been pointed out before, most people wouldn't have known an individual Grand Duchess if she jumped up and bit them  AND people were used to seeing formal, retouched photos of the family.  You know perfectly well that casual family photos of Anastasia don't look that  much like the official portraits most people would see. 

 
Quote
As I have already  said, there were many more people in Berlin who knew FS and only one - a PAID witness - came forward seven years later.   

How do you know she was paid? And how many pro AA witnesses were doing it for shares in Grandanour corporation?

She herself admitted at the trials that she was told she would be  paid for a POSITIVE identification only.  The Grandanor corporation is a separate issue - whether or not people may have been trying to cash in on a possible Romanov fortune may or may not be true but it  has no bearing on the fact that Doris Wingender was a very dodgy witness, the only person to identify AA as FS and most importantly, someone who refused to testify on oath.    If this case wasn't about AA/FS would YOU believe her?


Quote
You are right you'll never change my mind, but I don't know what else can jump up and bite you to prove AA was FS, because she was.

More photographs, more witnesses who knew FS, proof that FS could play the piano and do exquisite needlework like AA (with one hand!) etc, etc.   I don't think the asylum gave music and sewing lessons and a working class family couldn't afford them.  However, I  am still prepared to at least consider it if you can show me some of these things.  However, I have the feeling that if a 112 year old Franciszka Schanzkowska turned up today and said "of course AA wasn't me, I went to London to work as has been suggested", you would tell her she was wrong because the DNA said so. 

So we'll just have to agree to disagree or we'll be here until doomsday.



Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 20, 2007, 09:46:53 AM

You have still not yet shown any proof that any disturbances caused problems or they did not do their job properly.   My illustrations show that  they did.

What illustrations? When the police are involved in a coup, they don't have time to go looking through nuthouses for missing girls. The end result speaks for itself- because AA was proven to be FS, we know they had to have been lax to not find this right away, so other things were more important to them.

Quote
You know perfectly well that casual family photos of Anastasia don't look that  much like the official portraits most people would see. 

And they sure don't look a thing like FS/AA's mug shot, either, because it was a different person. The fat lips alone give it away!
Quote
If this case wasn't about AA/FS would YOU believe her?

Come on if someone is paid off and it was publically known they'd go to jail.

Quote
More photographs, more witnesses who knew FS,

HEARSAY and contradictory word of mouth mean nothing. Every single court case in the world has had false or incorrect testimony. People remember things wrong. None of that junk holds up to DNA.

Quote
proof that FS could play the piano and do exquisite needlework like AA (with one hand!) etc, etc.   I don't think the asylum gave music and sewing lessons and a working class family couldn't afford them.

What makes you think only rich people do these things? As a matter of fact it was considered part of any young lady's training in the old days to learn needlepoint. I mean poor people, farm people, too! In the Laura Ingalls Wilder books they learn it and they were poor (and yes a real life family) I have known people who were dirt poor and couldn't even read who could play the piano and any song you could ask for.

Quote
  However, I have the feeling that if a 112 year old Franciszka Schanzkowska turned up today and said "of course AA wasn't me, I went to London to work as has been suggested", you would tell her she was wrong because the DNA said so. 

So we'll just have to agree to disagree or we'll be here until doomsday.

I say the same if a 106 year old AN walked up, or if SEARCH found and identified the bones. You'd all just say it was set up, paid off, Russian gov't crooked, switched, etc... ::) and you know it. But the story is really getting old and tired, and surely the old cash cow can't be milked for that much more to make all this worth it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2007, 10:16:16 AM
CORRECTION:

Postage stamp of Berlin shows it was mailed on the first day of Kapp's putsch in Berlin:

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/1920BerlinLetPost.jpg)

 I went back to the web site and double check just to make sure.  The article tells us that the letter  was mailed from Berlin to the USA  on the first day of  Kapp's putsch. 

The dates for the pustch is 13 to 17 March 1920.

On another site,  I found that mail was disrupted for several days during the  Kapp putsch but was quickly restored..... [Not sure of the author of the site.]

Yes,  a part of one branch of the police had  joined Kapp. but not because of Kapp's  political stand,  meanwhile,  the rest of that same branch of police were part of the force which caused Kapp to flee Berlin by the 17th of March. [See more detail in my earlier post.]

Must apologize for my error. 

AGRBear

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 20, 2007, 10:30:57 AM
It's really so pathetic to see the AA supporters boring this site with their ludicrous support for the obvious fraud. It is about time they got a life and realised Grand Duchess Anastasia was brutally murdered in the Ipatiev House along with the rest of her family. AA was a total fake and the DNA testings prove it beyond a doubt. Get a life AA supporters as you are seriously a very big worry in your insanity.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 20, 2007, 10:42:04 AM
What a complete load of old garbage Ferrymansdaughter. Get a life and stop trying to pathetically defend AA as you haven't a leg to stand on. She was a fraud and it is very well documented.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 20, 2007, 11:17:42 AM
It's really so pathetic to see the AA supporters boring this site with their ludicrous support for the obvious fraud. It is about time they got a life and realised Grand Duchess Anastasia was brutally murdered in the Ipatiev House along with the rest of her family. AA was a total fake and the DNA testings prove it beyond a doubt. Get a life AA supporters as you are seriously a very big worry in your insanity.

Hey, I have a life thanks.  I've been posting more lately but I'm not on this board EVERY day like some people and if you find my "insane" postings so boring,  why bother reading them?

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 20, 2007, 11:28:10 AM
What a complete load of old garbage Ferrymansdaughter. Get a life and stop trying to pathetically defend AA as you haven't a leg to stand on. She was a fraud and it is very well documented.

Do you always make personal attacks like this on people who disagree with you?    It suggests you are not as secure in your opinion as you would have us believe.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 20, 2007, 11:47:49 AM
What a complete load of old garbage Ferrymansdaughter. Get a life and stop trying to pathetically defend AA as you haven't a leg to stand on. She was a fraud and it is very well documented.

Do you always make personal attacks like this on people who disagree with you?    It suggests you are not as secure in your opinion as you would have us believe.

No, those of us who know AA was a fraud are more than sure. It's just that the endless defense of her and the same old useless crap about why you say she's not FS being regurgitated gets very old, tiring and frustrating. It's not an 'opinion' that AA was not AN and was FS, it's proven fact. We now need to move on to HOW she ran this charade for so many years and not keep dwelling on 'what if it was her' because IT WASN'T!!

and this thread can be put to rest because she was not murdered by Grossmann! She died in VA in 1984.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 20, 2007, 11:52:45 AM

Come on if someone is paid off and it was publically known they'd go to jail.



Quote below from Gleb Botkin's book regarding an interview he and Dr Voller (send end of quote) had with Doris Wingender.    (You may believe it or not).  I'm off now - have a good weekend!

"As we had hoped, she gave herself away completely. She could not even answer questions pertaining to what she claimed to have been her own experiences, without consulting a notebook. The Police inspector adroitly manaeuvred her into letting him see that notebook, and in it we discovered notes dictated by the same Detective Knopf. We caught her in any number of inconsistensies and some completely absurd statements. Thus, she asserted among other things that she knew Anastasia to be Francisca because Francisca's teeth had all been black and decayed. While many of Anastaisa's teeth had had to be extracted, she did not have and never did have a single black tooth in her mouth.
Finally, we induced our charming guest to show us her contract with the newspaper, which had published the Francisca story, and whose editor, by the way, had been paid 25,000 marks by the Grand Duke of Hessen-Darmstadt for doing so. Although we had supposed that her contract was likely to be somewhat irregular, we were nevertheless quite astonished to discover that she had been paid fifteen hundred marks to recognise Anastasia as Francisca, before she had even seen the Grand Duchess.
The Police Inspector almost laughed himself to tears at the stupidity with which the prostitute was falling into every trap set for her. By the end of the dinner he called us aside and congratulated us on our skill as detectives.
"There can be no question that the whole business about Francisca is a frame-up," he said. "And you may rest assured that Mrs. Tschaikovsky will not be given Francisca's passport. Moreover, should you be willing to make a complaint, I shall have the prostitute arrested for perjury and entering a fraudulent agreement. You have gathered enough material to make a jail sentence for the woman certain."
While I felt inclined to feel sorry for the woman, who, after all, was but a stupid creature not likely to refuse fifteen hundred marks for any service, I wanted nevertheless to make the necessary complaint against her. But the Duke of Leuchtenberg, Mrs. von Rathlef, and several others begged me not to do so. They insisted that to have that prostitute put in jail for a few months would achieve nothing, extcept to forewarn our chief enemy, the Grand Duke of Hessen-Darmstadt.
(The questioning of the woman by Dr. Völler, the officer or the Berlin Criminal Police, and myself was recorded in two protocols of May 19th and May 21st, 1927. Her mother and sister were questioned later with similar results, as shown by the protocol fo May 24th, 1927.)


[My italics]
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2007, 12:32:55 PM
I guess this needs to repeated:

Peter Kurth's  ANASTASIA p. 6:

 [AA's] >>...pictures and prints were sent out to Stuttgart, Brunswick, Hamburg, Munich, Dresden-- to all the corners of the Weimar Repulbic.  Meanwhile, the police looked into some clues nearer to home.  The records of all Berlin's hospital and madhouses were dutifully checked for missing and discharged patients who fitted Fraulein Unbekannt's description, while mothers who had lost their daughters in the city, and husbands their wives, were sometimes brought out to Dalldorf to look at her.  She had already been seen by the brother of a certain Maria Andrecewsky (who shook his head and went home depressed) when she was asked point blank if she was another Maria, surnamed Wachowiak, who had disappeared recently from the city of Posen, to the east.<<

So we know of atleast two other missing perons. 
1) Maria Andrecewsky
2) Maria Wachowiak


Maybe,  just maybe,  the people in the asylums who had known and treated FS didn't reconize her from her  mug shots taken in March by the Berlin police?

Maybe,  the police  didn't ask the right questions of the right people who would have known FS.

This is  Kurth's reply:

p. 7
>>Noboby leamed the Berlin police when they gave up on this case.  They had exhausted their resources and had never realy expected their efforts in other parts of Germany to succeed.  They didn't believe the unknown woman was German, to start with.  A doctor at the Elisabeth Hopital had suggested that she might come from Bavaria, but no one at headquarters agreed.  There was a note in the bulletin of the Dalldorf Asylum:  "It is known that she conversed in Russian with the sisters, nursing her."

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia.  However,  I'm not sure AA was FS.

This thread is about FS's  Timeline!!!

AGRBear


Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2007, 01:31:43 PM
What a complete load of old garbage Ferrymansdaughter. Get a life and stop trying to pathetically defend AA as you haven't a leg to stand on. She was a fraud and it is very well documented.

Do you always make personal attacks like this on people who disagree with you?    It suggests you are not as secure in your opinion as you would have us believe.

No, those of us who know AA was a fraud are more than sure. It's just that the endless defense of her and the same old useless crap about why you say she's not FS being regurgitated gets very old, tiring and frustrating. It's not an 'opinion' that AA was not AN and was FS, it's proven fact. We now need to move on to HOW she ran this charade for so many years and not keep dwelling on 'what if it was her' because IT WASN'T!!

and this thread can be put to rest because she was not murdered by Grossmann! She died in VA in 1984.


 I  ask that  respect is needed between ALL posters  and it's not necessary to blow up another thread because Annie, who has written with disrespect,  has every hope for those who don't agree to return a post  with disrespect. 

Back to FS and Grossmann.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 20, 2007, 03:06:29 PM
Back to FS and Grossmann? Everything has been said and there is evidence that the info was not taken seriously at the trial. There's nothing more to discuss other than ideas for a bad novel.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 20, 2007, 03:12:32 PM
I take into consideration that a book written by Gleb Botkin is going to be heavily in favor of AA's claim. With his incredible creative ability as a writer and an artist, he can spin quite a story, so we don't know everything in it is exactly as it happened. I can't accept that fictional book as a valid source of factual and unbiased information.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2007, 06:25:41 PM

...[in part]....
 We can NEVER really have a good discussion on how we think  ...[in part].... So please leave this .... thread and take the AA/AN stuff to one of the others, thanks.

Your word on your own thread,  not mine, however,  I think it's a good idea since  this is a thread about FS's   TIMELiNE not AA's.   ::)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2007, 06:46:49 PM
Back to FS and Grossmann? Everything has been said and there is evidence that the info was not taken seriously at the trial. There's nothing more to discuss other than ideas for a bad novel.

When the evidence was sent to the courts  for AA's trial  it seems that most of the information was missing  [misplaced;  destroyed;  not sent; ???], therefore,  it was of no use. Don't read into this as meaning the evidence wasn't taken "seriously".   The evidence wasn't there to be entered.  At least this is what I understand to be the case.

I am out of here for awhile.

Too much  "same old,  same old".....

AGRBear



Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 22, 2007, 10:01:11 PM
Yes the same old rubbish from you AGRBear. 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 22, 2007, 10:04:02 PM
Yet more Kurth rubbish. Funny how nobody else has written any credible book in AA's defence. No serious historian would waste their time on such garbage when it has been proven that AA was a fraud. 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 23, 2007, 07:33:23 AM
I take into consideration that a book written by Gleb Botkin is going to be heavily in favor of AA's claim. With his incredible creative ability as a writer and an artist, he can spin quite a story, so we don't know everything in it is exactly as it happened. I can't accept that fictional book as a valid source of factual and unbiased information.

I believe it was published as non-fiction actually .  I am trying to find out if the protocols mentioned still exist and if Gleb's account was corroborated by the police.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 23, 2007, 07:35:32 AM
Yes the same old rubbish from you AGRBear. 

Dmitri I have yet to see you post something informative.  Your sole purpose here appears to be to insult people who disagree with you.   No wonder Bear has got bored with it all -  I am beginning to sympathise.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 23, 2007, 07:58:54 AM
Why bother?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 23, 2007, 08:16:01 AM
Why bother?

Because if it WAS then a) either the police were all "in on the fraud" which I doubt or b) Gleb is telling the truth
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: lexi4 on July 23, 2007, 08:29:49 AM
Ok, I have a question.
For those of you who find the AA discussion boring, repetitive, rubbish etc, why do you participate? I really don't get it. Why not live and let live and let those who are interested in the topic carry on a discussion? I don't participate in topics that don't interest me or that I consider to be inane. I mean no disrespect with my question, I am really trying to understand this.
Thanks in advance,
Lexi
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 23, 2007, 08:44:18 AM
Ok, I have a question.
For those of you who find the AA discussion boring, repetitive, rubbish etc, why do you participate? I really don't get it. Why not live and let live and let those who are interested in the topic carry on a discussion? I don't participate in topics that don't interest me or that I consider to be inane. I mean no disrespect with my question, I am really trying to understand this.
Thanks in advance,
Lexi

I don't find the discussion boring - that is why I am here.  What I do find boring is people being rude to other posters without contributing anything to the debate. 

I can't answer for the others. 

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: lexi4 on July 23, 2007, 08:51:51 AM
ferrymansdaughter,
I didn't say you found the topic boring. Sheesh.
Lexi
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 23, 2007, 09:24:21 AM
What is tedious is the total inability for the Anna Anderson supporters to accept the fact that she was a total and proven fraud. Sadly they continue in their bizarre delusions and cannot accept proven fact.  That is what is very, very boring.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 23, 2007, 10:26:29 AM
ferrymansdaughter,
I didn't say you found the topic boring. Sheesh.
Lexi

Sorry - I guess I am now becoming over-sensitive like everyone else.  Must be a hazard of posting here.

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 23, 2007, 01:08:33 PM
I want to see everyone who posts on this topic to observe the rules of common courtesy. That means no personal attacks and no posting opinions as facts. If you find the discussion pointless, boring or irrelevant, as one of the posters mentioned - don't participate.

If I find this directive being ignored, it will be locked down - with or without prior notice.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2007, 03:31:24 PM
Lisa I really do feel that there is enough proof to conclude beyond a shadow of a doubt that FS was not murdered by Grossman. It's all in this thread. Among such evidence is:
*AA was matched to the DNA of the FS family, and since she's the main suspect, there is a 99.9% chance that AA was FS, therefore FS was not murdered by Grossman.
*In 1940, the Berlin police acknowledged AA was FS and agreed with the findings of Darmstadt and Ernie's detectives (who had used Berlin's own records) The 'hapless sap' who signed off on it was even named. This means that those who originally claimed she was killed by Grossmann changed their minds, another blow to the theory.
*There is no evidence Grossmann killed or even knew FS, no body, no personal objects or blood connecting FS to Grossmann.
*Even during the AA trial, it is admitted even by supporters that it was declared by the court there was not sufficient evidence to even consider it a valid argument.

What more does a person need to see that FS was not murdered by Grossmann? What does our lawyer FA think the conclusion should be? I move that the case be rested, and that any further fantasies on this subject be moved to 'having fun.'
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: lexi4 on July 23, 2007, 04:55:54 PM
What is tedious is the total inability for the Anna Anderson supporters to accept the fact that she was a total and proven fraud. Sadly they continue in their bizarre delusions and cannot accept proven fact.  That is what is very, very boring.

Then why not let them discuss the topic? Why respond if you feel that way, Dmitri?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 23, 2007, 06:03:28 PM
There is nothing to discuss about the fraud.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 23, 2007, 06:22:01 PM
There is nothing to discuss about the fraud.

Then, why are you discussing it? If you are on this particular thread, I don't see you contributing anything on this particular topic.

Annie, are you requesting the thread be locked?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 23, 2007, 06:59:26 PM
There is nothing to discuss about the matter. The thread should be locked.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 23, 2007, 07:01:56 PM
Give it a rest ferrymansdaughter. Botkin was a journalist and made money out of his AA = Anastasia stories. It's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 23, 2007, 07:17:07 PM
Yes I agree this thread should be locked. I do not believe that Anna Anderson was murdered by a grossman, I think she just died of old age. I think there is nothing else to say about this.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2007, 08:59:43 PM
Yes, I do think it should be locked. It's as ridiculous as the intestine switch. On other boards I'm on there's a policy that if a thread has run its course, the question has been answered, or it's doing nothing but causing arguments, it's time to close it. I realize in the case of the survivor forum that would be every thread and you can't close them all, but I really do feel there is nothing else left to say about Grossmann, and that things will only deteriorate if it continues.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2007, 09:04:09 PM
Give it a rest ferrymansdaughter. Botkin was a journalist and made money out of his AA = Anastasia stories. It's as simple as that.

It's as obvious as the lips on AA/FS's face that's the deal. He was a writer, she was a story.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Belochka on July 23, 2007, 10:33:15 PM
Give it a rest ferrymansdaughter. Botkin was a journalist and made money out of his AA = Anastasia stories. It's as simple as that.

... He was a writer, she was a story.

Such a pity that Botkin did not live long enough to have the opportunity to write an addendum!

Margarita  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: FaithWhiteRose on July 24, 2007, 04:28:13 PM
Give it a rest ferrymansdaughter. Botkin was a journalist and made money out of his AA = Anastasia stories. It's as simple as that.

True. And his books sold very well, did they not?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 26, 2007, 02:46:57 PM
As with other topics on the Survivor forum, this one has also veered off topic.

The topic here is a Timeline for Fransizska Schanzkowska. Kindly stick to topic, please.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on July 27, 2007, 07:03:49 PM
Germany, in the after math of the war, was in horrible condition.  People were starving and jobs were had to get.  Food was almost non existent and the inflation rates were so bad that an egg could cost 2000 marks!

I know that those who were missing a loved one would have wanted to find that person, but I agree that when choosing between a newspaper and an egg, the egg would win.

And my only comment on Wingender is this, did FS disappear on March 9 or is that the date that Wingender reported to the police that she was missing?  I couldn't get a clear understanding from the previous postings.

If Felix's birthday was on February 17 and FS mailed the card on Feb 17 saying that she was sorry it would be late, what does it matter when he received it?  It is the mailing date, not the receipt date that matters. 

I thought that AA was in Dalldorf for two years after her attempted suicide.  And this whole Grossman thing is very strange.  FS's family accepted that he had killed her, but did they ever have a body to identify?  And I can see how he could sell (very disgusting and unspeakable) the body parts because food was so scarce.


I don't truly believe that the Weimar Republic (which was not very stable to begin with) had everything "up and running" and under control at all in the 18 months after the end of the war.  And by then, the "peace makers" in Paris had begun collecting their reparations.  Germany was indeed a mess!

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on July 29, 2007, 10:57:13 AM
Hello again,

I just got through two hours of reading the "Grossman" thread which has been locked.  My head is spinning!!

This just seems to be another "Grossman" thread under a different name.  And it has all of the variations on a theme of "Was FS actually AA"   :-\
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 30, 2007, 04:44:56 PM
Hello again,

I just got through two hours of reading the "Grossman" thread which has been locked.  My head is spinning!!

This just seems to be another "Grossman" thread under a different name.  And it has all of the variations on a theme of "Was FS actually AA"   :-\

This thread was not created to prove or disprove  FS was AA.  This  thread was created to sort through the life of FS from the time of her birth to March when FS was reported  to be missing.   

This thread  gives everyone a fair chance of  knowing the facts about FS's Timeline and not get it tangled with anyone elses timeline.   Example:   FS was  was cutting asparagus and working the fields in Jan. and early Feb,  which causes her hands to be ruff, brusied, cut and  have ground in dirt . 

IF  [big  if]  you want to compare FS Timeline with AA's Time line, then you can go  over to the AA  Timeline and read that in March 1920, the nurses remembered AA's hands as being so soft that they believed AA had never  used them  for labor of any kind. 

Here,  you can read that FS was not known to have given birth to a child.

If you want  you can, again,  go over  to AA's Timeline and read that AA admitted having given birth.

As far as I'm concern,  all these facts should take us in the same direction and prove FS was AA.    If they don't then they don't.   Remember, I don't care where the evidence takes me.  I'm just enjoying the journey.
----

If people wish to talk about Grossmann's conviction of having killed FS on 13 Aug 1920,  then open up a new thread if FA permits. 

----

This is not a place to discuss DNA/ mtDNA.  There are other threads for this discussion.

AGRBear 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on July 30, 2007, 05:22:50 PM
Good questions, Alixz.

Germany, in the after math of the war, was in horrible condition.  People were starving and jobs were had to get.  Food was almost non existent and the inflation rates were so bad that an egg could cost 2000 marks!

I know that those who were missing a loved one would have wanted to find that person, but I agree that when choosing between a newspaper and an egg, the egg would win.

BEAR: Because Germans are very focus on order,  it  was important to keep order in those times.   And,  to prevent the police from selling their  good name for an egg,   they were paid, sometimes five times a day, to keep up with the inflation which was occuring.  Later, there was set up places where policeman were fed while on duty.   And,  yes,  not everyone was happy.  The Germans had just lost a war.  The returning soldiers had no jobs.  Many of the officers were placed into positions in the police department.  Over in the Grossmann thread I've given you the numbers which  shows the police force became larger and larger....  Yes,  a few of them joined Kapp's putsch, but not because of his politicts.  It was to tell the Americans and their Allies that  they didn't like being told what to do....  This Kapp thing lasted just four days.     

And my only comment on Wingender is this, did FS disappear on March 9 or is that the date that Wingender reported to the police that she was missing?  I couldn't get a clear understanding from the previous postings.

BEAR: As I understand it,  Wingender's reported FS missing on 9 March 1920 which was nearly three weeks after AA was pulled out of a canal and had been confined to  a hospital and then sent to Dalldorf Asylum.

I, also, understand,  that there was an attempt to change the date in the 1940s, however,   the records continued to show 9 March and so it remained 9 March.

If Felix's birthday was on February 17 and FS mailed the card on Feb 17 saying that she was sorry it would be late, what does it matter when he received it?  It is the mailing date, not the receipt date that matters. 
 

BEAR: The reason some posters want you to think there was so much disorder is not just because the police failed to discover that FS was AA,  there is another reason.   They want you to think that the mail service was in disorder, too.     From the information I've found, the mail service in Berlin and the rest of the Weimer Republic was excellent dispite what was occuring from time to time on the political scene.  Mail was delivered  within 24 hours of posting.  There were acceptions, of course.  The mail reached difficult areas withint two to three days.   FS sent Felix a birthday card because his birthday was 17 Feb. .   This would mean that Felix should have recieved the card if posted on the 17th  or 18th  no later than the  20th or 21st  of Feb. 1920.   Felix tells us that he recieved the card two weeks late.    This could mean that FS mailed the letter  after AA had jumped into the canal and before Wingender's reported her missing on 9 March.  If the letter arrived 1 or 3 days later after being  mailed,  then this would mean that FS [or someone did] mailed the card no later than 1 March 1920.   About 8 days before Wingenders went to the police.

To add to this,  the card stated that FS knew the card was late in arriving and told Felix tha she had been terribly busy and was sorry.   So,  it is thought she sent the card  on the 17th or later.....  The truth of it is,  we don't know if the card was lost for a time and that is why it took two weeks... We just know she apologized and sent it  and it was received about the  4th or 5th of March 1920.


I thought that AA was in Dalldorf for two years after her attempted suicide.  And this whole Grossman thing is very strange.  FS's family accepted that he had killed her, but did they ever have a body to identify?  And I can see how he could sell (very disgusting and unspeakable) the body parts because food was so scarce.


I don't truly believe that the Weimar Republic (which was not very stable to begin with) had everything "up and running" and under control at all in the 18 months after the end of the war.  And by then, the "peace makers" in Paris had begun collecting their reparations.  Germany was indeed a mess!

Just my two cents.


Of course,  I'm not saying that Germans were happy campers and that everything was running smoothly,  however,  you do have to understand the nature of Germans as a whole.   They prided themselves in their work.   And,   there is an old saying:  "A good German lives to work and does not work to live."   

Over in the Grossmann thread,  I even presented an envelope which was posted on the first day of Kapp's putsch.   However,  I do believe,  for the first time since the war,   service may have not been  on time on the following two days,  but this has nothing to do with  FS's card to Felix.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 30, 2007, 10:29:31 PM
Yes the photos tell all apart from the DNA evidence. I would recommend that this topic be locked off. It is going nowhere apart from what AGR Bear refuses to accept that Anna Anderson was in no way connected with the real Anastasia.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 31, 2007, 04:24:30 AM
Yes the photos tell all apart from the DNA evidence. I would recommend that this topic be locked off. It is going nowhere apart from what AGR Bear refuses to accept that Anna Anderson was in no way connected with the real Anastasia.

Bear is showing that there are discrepancies between AA and FS - this is not the same thing as saying that AA was Anastasia, as you well know.    There are people who don't agree she was AN but still don't accept she was FS because of the discrepancies.   No one is making you contribute to this thread Dmitri, you can just ignore it if you wish.  Just because you don't like the way it is heading is no reason to try and censor it by locking it down.  I notice you have suggested this with some of the other threads -  why not suggest shutting down all Survivor threads since they are always going to go round in circles?

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 06:57:47 AM
Yes the photos tell all apart from the DNA evidence. I would recommend that this topic be locked off. It is going nowhere apart from what AGR Bear refuses to accept that Anna Anderson was in no way connected with the real Anastasia.

Bear is showing that there are discrepancies between AA and FS - this is not the same thing as saying that AA was Anastasia, as you well know.    There are people who don't agree she was AN but still don't accept she was FS because of the discrepancies.   


But there really are no 'discrepancies', only a bunch of hearsay and conflicting statements, this person said this, this one said that. Now that we have DNA evidence as proof, we know who was right, and who was either lying or mistaken. The list of 'differences' are only quotes from a person who could be lying, wrong, or remembered incorrectly. Now that we know she wasn't AN, we know it had to be one of those three.  There is no proof of any of those 'differences' other than weak hearsay and word of mouth, years later. The DNA is solid proof.

These 'lists' are very misleading too, and there is nothing that can't be explained away easily with a little common sense. For example the one 'AA had a baby FS did not!' Well, FS did have a baby, because she was AA. It's not at all unusual that there would be no record for the baby, or that she wouldn't tell her family, or that they'd be ashamed to admit it. A 'bastard' child was a disgrace in those days, and they were hidden and lied about in many ways. So you see it means nothing. You can take apart the whole list this way, it means nothing compared to the DNA.

I am constantly hounded by AA supporters who say 'prove it' but of course no one can since liars don't leave documentation, and no one is going to leave a paper trial of fraud. However, they also can't 'prove' any of the things on the their list are 'facts' because it's a bunch of hearsay, each comment coming usually from only one person. So you can prove the date the person said something, or the page it's on, but you cannot prove they were telling the truth, or correct. We now know that they weren't right. (I also think it's kind of funny how they brand everyone against them a 'liar' but get angry at me for suggesting it's possible their 'side' did the same!) Years have passed, the trail is cold, the participants dead, but science has given us our final answer. We are left to our own better judgement, common sense, and logic. That is, if you want to use them, apparently, some would rather reject reality and replace it with their own version in some alternate universe.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on July 31, 2007, 09:05:06 AM
Amazing how Karl Maucher matched Anna Anderson's DNA and they still don't believe it! What a joke! 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 07:09:34 PM
The guideline established for this thread was  FS's life from her birth to  reported as missing on 9 March 1920 and over on the AA thread the time ine was from 17 Feb to her death.   AA's DNA /mtDNA have their own thrads.    When it's completed,  the life of FS and AA should match on 17 Feb. 1920, or, atleast   one would think so since DNA/mtDNA provides us with information that  AA is linked to Maucher, whom most  believe  is FS's nephew.  Has it?  I still have some questions.   If you are no longer carrying any doubt,   I'm happy for you,  but,   I  do.   I  hope you respect my position as I respect yours.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 07:21:11 PM
The guideline established for this thread was  FS's life from her birth to  reported as missing on 9 March 1920 and over on the AA thread the time ine was from 17 Feb to her death.   AA's DNA /mtDNA have their own thrads.    When it's completed,  the life of FS and AA should match on 17 Feb. 1920, or, atleast   one would think so since DNA/mtDNA provides us with information that  AA is linked to Maucher, whom most  believe  is FS's nephew.  Has it?  I still have some questions.   If you are no longer carrying any doubt,   I'm happy for you,  but,   I  do.   I  hope you respect my position as I respect yours.

AGRBear

So this means you're still not sure that AA wasn't AN?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 07:45:53 PM
[Bear takes a deep sigh]

Annie,

Do I really need to tell you, AGAIN,  that  I never have believed AA  was GD Anastasia.  I didn't need the DNA and mtDNA like you did.

Do  I need to, also,  remind you that this thread is not about  you are I,  it's about FS's Timeline which is  between her birth and  the  9th of March 1920,  the day she was reported as missing.   This thread has nothing to do with AA's  DNA or mtDNA,  which is the direction you'd like to go,  but,   I will not go there on this thread.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 07:49:53 PM
Bear, please explain why, if you really don't believe she was AN, are you still trying to compare the two  and keep casting doubt on her identity as if you are trying to prove it?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 08:02:04 PM
Bear, please explain why, if you really don't believe she was AN, are you still trying to compare the two  and keep casting doubt on her identity as if you are trying to prove it?

This thread isn't about why I don't believe AA is GD Anastasia.  Never has been. 

If you'd like to know why posters  don't believe AA is GD Anastasia then start a new thread.

Back to the topic:  A Timeline for FS.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 08:11:33 PM
Here's one you forgot: Feb. 12, 1984 - FS dies in Charlottesville, VA at the age of 87
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 08:39:06 PM
Here's one you forgot: Feb. 12, 1984 - FS dies in Charlottesville, VA at the age of 87


The topic is FS's life between  the time of her birth to the report of her missing  on  9 March 1920.


AGRBear



 

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 02, 2007, 09:59:38 PM
AGRbear DNA does not lie. AA = FS
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 03, 2007, 05:15:53 PM
Do you have anything to offer about FS life before FS  was reported missing on 9 March 1920? 



AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Foxglove on August 03, 2007, 10:25:21 PM
I have read from another site that from 1919-20, Franziska worked at a brewery in Buetow, washing bottles. Can anyone confirm this? The site that had this information did not provide any sources.

http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html (http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html).
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 10:37:45 PM
Thank you Fox for posting that! It's very interesting. I am always glad to find something on the case not connected to the same old pro AA sources. I'm sure there is a lot of info out there to be found to put this myth to rest, if the right people would find it. Shame I don't have the money to take on this task.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 10:55:17 PM
From the link posted by Foxglove:

Franziska was at first extremely reluctant to see Zinaida, gripping the bedclothes over her head. Eventually, doctors had to be called to help with the ensuing tussle. Anna need not have worried; Zinaida proclaimed afterwards that she must be Tatiana: she had the eyes of the Tsar.

Oh! I didn't know Zina at first accepted her as Tatiana! It's strange she'd say that about the eyes, since Tatiana had smaller, darker eyes. If all she was going on was eyes something like the Tsar's, that's sure not much.

Despite this early triumph, Anna retreated under the blankets once more when the Tsarina's lady-in-waiting, Baroness Buxhoeveden, visited some weeks later. Eschewing the help of the doctors, the impatient Baroness tore off the blankets herself before snorting, 'She's too short for Tatiana.'

Something to take note of here is that when Sophie denied her as Tatiana, she never said 'that's Anastasia!' If it had been AN, she would have recognized her.

Franziska  returned the compliment with tales of the Baroness's treachery. She declared that the Baroness had gained her freedom in 1918 by exposing a plan to free the Romanovs to the Bolsheviks. But Franziska would soon become Anastasia, a  fantasy that would become  solidified into belief.

There is no proof that Sophie B. betrayed the family, though AA supporters like to claim they can prove it because they think this bit of info would solidify her claim. However, it's not true. In her book, Sophie states the reason she was put out, along with Gilliard and Gibbes, when they were moved to Ekaterinburg is that they took her for a Swede because of her name. The Bolsheviks didn't want to mess with holding foreign nationals in fear one of the governments might come after them, and they had enough to deal with fighting the whites. There are some who say Buxhoevedon is not Swedish, well, I don't know if it is or not, and I'm sure the Bolsheviks, many of whom were illiterate or at least far from cultured and aware of other languages, didn't know either. Maybe it sounded Swedish to them. If you read Sophie's book "Left Behind" you'll see she and her party had no easy path through civil war torn Siberia, constantly fearing for their lives, and were only able to leave the country when they came upon British troops occupying Omsk who gave them safe passage out of the country. In her later years, she worked for Alexandra's sister, Victoria Milford-Haven.The whole idea she was saved by the Bolsheviks for selling out the family is bunk.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 07, 2007, 08:32:52 PM
http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

This source was given.

Please note there is no author's name attached.

This source doesn't have one single source attached.

What are we to do with  this kind of article?   Believe every word of it?


AGRBear 

 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 07, 2007, 08:39:33 PM
http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

This source was given.

Please note there is no author's name attached.

This source doesn't have one single source attached.

What are we to do with  this kind of article?   Believe every word of it?


AGRBear 

 


It looks like part of a much larger website I can't reach the other parts of the story. Sorry it wasn't written by Peter K. But those statements are no different than the ones in his book, they're all just stuff somebody said that somebody said and can't really be proven unless there was a tape recorder. Even a stenographer isn't good enough, what if she was out to get Anna and paid off by Ernie? Who can prove anything? What if it was all made up? What if I'm only CGI? You ask me for sources and I give them to you and you deny them. You will only beileve what you want to believe so why bother?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Temperance on August 08, 2007, 07:43:06 AM
Thanks for typing that out Annie! It is very interesting!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 08, 2007, 11:50:06 AM
Thanks for the information Annie and Fox
http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

This source was given.

Please note there is no author's name attached.

This source doesn't have one single source attached.

What are we to do with  this kind of article?   Believe every word of it?


AGRBear 

 


It looks like part of a much larger website I can't reach the other parts of the story. Sorry it wasn't written by Peter K. But those statements are no different than the ones in his book, they're all just stuff somebody said that somebody said and can't really be proven unless there was a tape recorder. Even a stenographer isn't good enough, what if she was out to get Anna and paid off by Ernie? Who can prove anything? What if it was all made up? What if I'm only CGI? You ask me for sources and I give them to you and you deny them. You will only beileve what you want to believe so why bother?
it is very interesting to know that.
Why bother trying to convince them that AA was A, that is their choose they continue to choose to believe what they want to believe. There is no point in even trying to give more sources as to why AA is not A. They will just think of an excuse to deny it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 08, 2007, 12:55:53 PM
http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

This source was given.

Please note there is no author's name attached.

This source doesn't have one single source attached.

What are we to do with  this kind of article?   Believe every word of it?


AGRBear 

 


It looks like part of a much larger website I can't reach the other parts of the story. Sorry it wasn't written by Peter K. But those statements are no different than the ones in his book, they're all just stuff somebody said that somebody said and can't really be proven unless there was a tape recorder. Even a stenographer isn't good enough, what if she was out to get Anna and paid off by Ernie? Who can prove anything? What if it was all made up? What if I'm only CGI? You ask me for sources and I give them to you and you deny them. You will only beileve what you want to believe so why bother?

Yes,  it does look like it is just part of a story.   Because of this,  we don't know who wrote it.  There might well me sources attached but we do not see them either.

This story has nothing to do with Annie or I or our belief that AA was GD Anastasia.   Unless,  Annie wrote it but I'm sure she would have told us if she had.   I know I didn't write it.   The fact is,  we don't even know who wrote it.   Nor was it posted here by one of  our fellow members of this forum, so,  we can't ask  this unknown person for more information and have only what we can read. So,  what can we prove as being facts,  heresay and  misinformation in what we can read at this site?

http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

First part:

>>Mountbatten in fact with believe "in all" was rather referring to the fact that Prince Frederick Ernest Prince of Saxe-Altenburg during his late teens, was a follower of Rudolf Steiner and attended channeling sessions at the Home of General von Moltke, more specifically-- the latter’s wife.   <<

Who is Rudolf Steiner?

Channeling session?  Is this making reference  to a particular session of  a  particular group of people sitting around a table with the hopes of reaching ghosts?

And,  what has  Mountbatten belief   that Prince Frederich  association with this Steiner have to do with AA?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2007, 12:58:44 PM
I wrote it?!  :o Bear, I wasn't even the person who posted it, Foxglove was! You are out to discount anything that contains info that goes against what you choose to believe.

Quote
So,  what can we prove as being facts,  heresay and  misinformation in what we can read at this site?

Like I said in my last post, you can't prove the quotes from Kurth's book are 'facts' either, even if you can prove a person said them on page 11 you can't prove what they said was correct. The only way to prove any of it is if there is a photo or a tape recording to back it up. You can't prove FS was 5'6" or some other height, no one measured her, she's not standing next to a yardstick. All you have is one persons's subjective view from a years old memory, and it very likely may be inaccurate. You cannot call that a 'fact.' Then on the other side, you have the guy who said he saw her cross herself backwards and chant in Polish in church. I believe him, you don't. What about the nurse who said she spoke Russian in her sleep? Did this really happen? Did Grandanor corp. pay her to say it? Or did she simply mistake Kashubian for Russian because she didn't speak either? We will never know!

 So technically the vast majority of info on the AA case is just quotes from people that may or may not be truthful or accurate, and may not have even really been said at all. The only thing we can do is be a good lawyer, collect our evidence and present it for consideration. You know, that's what most court cases are, just people telling their side of things, seeing what makes sense and what doesn't, and which side the jury finds more credible. All lawyers do exactly what we are doing, making points and coming up with scenarios that likely could have happened.


The only solid proof we have is the DNA, but you reject that too, so what can I say?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 08, 2007, 01:05:13 PM
Bear? are you refering to Victoria of Mountbatten Alix's sister? I know for sure that it is a fact that Irene did not believe AA  was A. The main thing we have to prove that AA was not A is DNA.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2007, 01:10:08 PM
We know Alix's sister Victoria never accepted AA. She didn't even acknowledge her claim. But her son, Earl Mountbatten, who was a cousin of Anastasia's own age, fought AA hard all his life and she hated him! When Rathlef died of a burst appendix, she accused him of poisoning her!

Quote
Who is Rudolf Steiner?

Channeling session?  Is this making reference  to a particular session of  a  particular group of people sitting around a table with the hopes of reaching ghosts?

Go back to Foxglove's link and click on where Steiner's name is bolded in blue. It will take you to a link explaining his life and his movement. According to that source, Harriet Rathlef's and the Leuchtenberg's acceptance of AA's claim had to do with them being followers of Steiner and his beliefs.

From Foxglove's article:

Generally, however, their social life was governed by Harriet's commitment to a Rudolf Steiner movement. The Anthroposophists believed that the Russian Revolution was the manifestation of a major psychic upheaval. They viewed Franziska sympathetically, as a helpless victim of the resulting karma; she made the most of their indulgence.


She tended to draw the types who were interested in offbeat cults, didn't she? Botkin saluted the Goddess Aphrodite.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 08, 2007, 01:12:07 PM
How quickly things get tangled. 

Please,  reread my post Annie.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2007, 01:15:42 PM
How quickly things get tangled. 

Please,  reread my post Annie.

AGRBear

and you reread mine. Maybe we need to stop editing the old posts while the other person is doing the same.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 08, 2007, 01:17:47 PM
I wrote it?!  :o Bear, I wasn't even the person who posted it, Foxglove was! You are out to discount anything that contains info that goes against what you choose to believe.
...[in part]....

I wrote:

>>This story has nothing to do with Annie or I or our belief that AA was GD Anastasia.   Unless,  Annie wrote it but I'm sure she would have told us if she had.   I know I didn't write it.   The fact is,  we don't even know who wrote it. <<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2007, 01:19:50 PM
I wrote it?!  :o Bear, I wasn't even the person who posted it, Foxglove was! You are out to discount anything that contains info that goes against what you choose to believe.
...[in part]....

I wrote:

>>This story has nothing to do with Annie or I or our belief that AA was GD Anastasia.   Unless,  Annie wrote it but I'm sure she would have told us if she had.   I know I didn't write it.   The fact is,  we don't even know who wrote it. <<

AGRBear

So you're still accusing me of writing it? Egads. I've never seen it before in my life and honestly most of the info in that article is new  to me. I am using it as a source for something I am writing, though. Maybe you can PM Foxglove and ask him where it came from and if there's more. I'd like to find out myself.

Okay, you're asking why Mountbatten felt Steiner's belief was the reason she supported AA, right? Well look at the paragraph in italics in my last post. Apparently, that's why she believed in AA, and Mountbatten thought she was looney.

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 08, 2007, 01:21:54 PM
Bear? are you refering to Victoria of Mountbatten Alix's sister? I know for sure that it is a fact that Irene did not believe AA  was A. The main thing we have to prove that AA was not A is DNA.


I am not referring to Victoria of Mountbatten nor am I sure that the author of the web site is reffering to her?   Like  Annie  suggested,  it seems what we can read is  taken from  or a part of a larger article or story written by   an unknown author.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 08, 2007, 01:24:43 PM
Bear? are you refering to Victoria of Mountbatten Alix's sister? I know for sure that it is a fact that Irene did not believe AA  was A. The main thing we have to prove that AA was not A is DNA.


I am not referring to Victoria of Mountbatten nor am I sure that the author of the web site is reffering to her?   Like  Annie  suggested,  it seems what we can read is  taken from  or a part of a larger article or story written by   an unknown author.

AGRBear
Yeah I see! It must have been taken from a part of a larger article. okay. I am not certain about that either.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 08, 2007, 01:31:02 PM


So you're still accusing me of writing it? Egads. I've never seen it before in my life and honestly most of the info in that article is new  to me. I am using it as a source for something I am writing, though. Maybe you can PM Foxglove and ask him where it came from and if there's more. I'd like to find out myself.

....[in part]....



Let me restate:  I said,  I didn't think you did because you would have told us you had.

I have no idea if Foxglove knows the author.   Evidently,  you do not.   Despite this lack of knowledge, you are using the information for something you are writing.     Before you publish whatever it is you are writing,  wouldn't you like to know the sources of  the information which is new to you?

I had not noticed that  the word " Steiner"  had a link.   I'll go back and take another look.  Thanks.

This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

AGRBear

PS  Rudolf Steiner:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/steiner.html

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2007, 01:31:56 PM
Bear? are you refering to Victoria of Mountbatten Alix's sister? I know for sure that it is a fact that Irene did not believe AA  was A. The main thing we have to prove that AA was not A is DNA.


I am not referring to Victoria of Mountbatten nor am I sure that the author of the web site is reffering to her?   Like  Annie  suggested,  it seems what we can read is  taken from  or a part of a larger article or story written by   an unknown author.

AGRBear
Yeah I see! It must have been taken from a part of a larger article. okay. I am not certain about that either.

From clicking on links on the page, I have traced it back to this:

http://soc.world-journal.net/esotericagoingmainstream.html

which comes from this:

http://soc.world-journal.net/ongoingprojects.html

It doesn't seem to have anything to do with Anna Anderson, but about religions, cults and spiritualist movements and their effects on people and society since the late 1800's. This was apparently just a part of their story, because many of AA's supporters were into this stuff and they think it ties in for that reason. They touched on the case, but it's not their main objective.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 08, 2007, 02:12:01 PM
This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

Second quote:

>>Franziska grew up as a Polish peasant, and Waltraut Schanzkowska later said: “My Auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the ... children. She didn't want to be buried in a little one-horse town.<<

I believe this has been repeated in several books.    What  was the original source from which this taken? Are her words found  in a letter which she sent to someone?  Or is this a  quote found in a newspaper or magazine article?  If not either of these placed,  where can we find this first being stated as her quote?

I am not saying that Waltruat didn't say it,  I'd just like to know the source which claims  she said it.   And,  does anyone know where did she gain this information?  From her mother?  From her grandmother?   From FS herself?

Like I've said all along,  I  don't believe AA was GD Anastasia, so,  don't be confused as I continue to try and sort out what is  good information  from  information that doesn't hold up under the weight of  scrutiny.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2007, 02:17:11 PM
This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

I KNOW! I said from that site, it said click on our home page, and I did, and from that found those links I gave you. It's all connected. I hope Fox can tell us more.

Quote

>>Franziska grew up as a Polish peasant, and Waltraut Schanzkowska later said: “My Auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the ... children. She didn't want to be buried in a little one-horse town.<<

I believe this has been repeated in several books.    What  was the original source from which this taken? Are her words found  in a letter which she sent to someone?  Or is this a  quote found in a newspaper or magazine article?  If not either of these placed,  where can we find this first being stated as her quote?

I know that quote is in Massie's "Romanovs the Final Chapter" and Massie is a very credible author, so I'm sure he had his backup or he wouldn't have used it. I am sorry he didn't do a good bibliography on that like he did for N and A, but considering the source is Massie, I trust him (don't feel this way about just anybody)

While I do trust Massie, I know there's a lot of suspect stuff out there. You'd be surprised some of the outright crap I've seen in the 'nonfiction' sections over the years. Even several different versions of things, like Rasputin's life, and none of them match up! This just goes to show that just because a person gets a book published it's not always completely credible, nor are its contents.

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2007, 10:46:55 PM
Okay I have traced the mystery site back to its source and possibly its author

from this part

http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/

I found this

http://www.epwijnants-lectures.com/

almost to the bottom of that page you see this

Lord Louis Mountbatten (later Earl Mountbatten of Burma) wrote that he deemed the Prince: “One of those people who believe in all claimants, however incredible.” Mountbatten was referring to the claim of Franziska Schandowski. Prince Frederick's Dream-Sociology P.1:


Clicking on that bolded link on that page takes you directly to the site in question:

http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

So apparently the responsible party is E.P.Wijnants-Research

http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/ascendedm.html

Click the rose!

Explore the site and you will see a very large variety of topics covered, all written in the same purple print with no one's name on it just like the AA article. It's a huge site! They do seem to be very thorough researchers and know what they are doing. They call her FS right out, because that's who she was.

This wikipedia article quotes a page from the site as a source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellesley_Tudor_Pole
# ^ Francois Martine:Da Vinci Code Decoded, The Holy Grail, P.2. E.P.Wijnants (2006-10-01). Retrieved on 2006-10-01.


Looks pretty credible to me Bear.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 10, 2007, 10:37:34 AM
....[in part]....
This wikipedia article quotes a page from the site as a source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellesley_Tudor_Pole
# ^ Francois Martine:Da Vinci Code Decoded, The Holy Grail, P.2. E.P.Wijnants (2006-10-01). Retrieved on 2006-10-01.


Looks pretty credible to me Bear.

>>Major Wellesley Tudor Pole (1884 - 1964)[1] was an early British Bahá'í.

Quote from wikipedia: 
>>There is no published biography known, but he is mentioned in many works. He authored many pamphlets and books and was a life long pursuer of religious and mystical questions and visions, being particularly involved with spiritualism and the Bahá'í Faith as well as the quest for the Holy Grail and Arthurian Legend.<<

Annie's opinion is that she believes this information is credible.    I cannot find enough information about who the author is to know if the information is credible.  Therefore,  I'd like to continue to sort through this information step by step and discover what is repeated here is valid infromation.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 10, 2007, 10:46:22 AM
Annie's quote: 
Quote
I found this

http://www.epwijnants-lectures.com/

almost to the bottom of that page you see this

Lord Louis Mountbatten (later Earl Mountbatten of Burma) wrote that he deemed the Prince: “One of those people who believe in all claimants, however incredible.” Mountbatten was referring to the claim of Franziska Schandowski. Prince Frederick's Dream-Sociology P.1:


 

According to the author,  Lord Louis Mountbatten wrote about the "Prince's "  belief in FS.

Anyone know where this quote  or a similar quote made by Mountbatten can be found?

>>Mountbatten in fact with believe "in all" was rather referring to the fact that Prince Frederick Ernest Prince of Saxe-Altenburg during his late teens, was a follower of Rudolf Steiner and attended channeling sessions at the Home of General von Moltke, more specifically-- the latter’s wife.<<

And,  what does Prince Frederick's interest with Steiner and channeling have to do with  whatever it was he believed about FS???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 10, 2007, 11:26:32 AM
This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

I KNOW! I said from that site, it said click on our home page, and I did, and from that found those links I gave you. It's all connected. I hope Fox can tell us more.

Quote

>>Franziska grew up as a Polish peasant, and Waltraut Schanzkowska later said: “My Auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the ... children. She didn't want to be buried in a little one-horse town.<<

I believe this has been repeated in several books.    What  was the original source from which this taken? Are her words found  in a letter which she sent to someone?  Or is this a  quote found in a newspaper or magazine article?  If not either of these placed,  where can we find this first being stated as her quote?

I know that quote is in Massie's "Romanovs the Final Chapter" and Massie is a very credible author, so I'm sure he had his backup or he wouldn't have used it. I am sorry he didn't do a good bibliography on that like he did for N and A, but considering the source is Massie, I trust him (don't feel this way about just anybody)

...[in part]...

Massie wrote his book THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER  in 1995. 

Thank you Annie for pointing in this direction.

I found it on page 249 and Massie placed around it quotation marks but does not list where he obtained this quote.  In fact,  I don't see a section where he has given a single source.

Since I agree with Annie that Massie is a reliable author,  I don't doubt that Massie gained this information from another reliable source.

I dug out a number of books and looked in the index to see if I could find the mention of  Waltraut Schazkowski and I did, page 224 in John Klier and Helen Mingay's book THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA.  This was published in 1997 after Massie's book.

Does anyone know if Massie every had communications with FS's family and if he quote Waltruat directly or if he quote some other author of a book or article?

Thanks.


This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 10, 2007, 12:25:09 PM


Annie's opinion is that she believes this information is credible.    I cannot find enough information about who the author is to know if the information is credible.  Therefore,  I'd like to continue to sort through this information step by step and discover what is repeated here is valid infromation.

AGRBear

The  source is traced back to E.P.Wijnants-Research. You can believe them, or not. I really don't know what makes them any less credible for collecting and repeating comments by others than say Kurth or Lovell are, unless you simply choose to believe them because you agree with them more.


Quote
And,  what does Prince Frederick's interest with Steiner and channeling have to do with  whatever it was he believed about FS???

AGRBear

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Steiner

Anthroposophy is a path of knowledge, to guide the spiritual in the human being to the spiritual in the universe…. Anthroposophists are those who experience, as an essential need of life, certain questions on the nature of the human being and the universe, just as one experiences hunger and thirst

From the  article:

The Anthroposophists believed that the Russian Revolution was the manifestation of a major psychic upheaval. They viewed Franziska sympathetically, as a helpless victim of the resulting karma; she made the most of their indulgence.

It seems because of their beliefs, they beileved AA had some kind mystical meaning in their universe, and since she (as "AN) was a victim of such bad karma, they felt it was their destiny to help her, or something like that? We would need to know and understand more about their philosophy to know for sure.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 10, 2007, 07:06:55 PM
This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html:

>>When her fiancé died on the Western Front in 1916.  Franziska began working in a munitions factory<<

I believe f FS started to work in the munition factory before  her fiance died.

Kleir and Mingay p. 224:

>>Shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska left Borowihlas for Berlin, fell in love and got engaged.  Her future husband was called to the army, and Franziska got a job at a munition factor owned by the electrical company AEG in Berlin.<<

>>In 1916 her fiance was killed on the western front.<<


AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 10, 2007, 08:07:17 PM
This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

Second quote:

>>Franziska grew up as a Polish peasant, and Waltraut Schanzkowska later said: “My Auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the ... children. She didn't want to be buried in a little one-horse town.<<

I believe this has been repeated in several books.    What  was the original source from which this taken? Are her words found  in a letter which she sent to someone?  Or is this a  quote found in a newspaper or magazine article?  If not either of these placed,  where can we find this first being stated as her quote?

I am not saying that Waltruat didn't say it,  I'd just like to know the source which claims  she said it.   And,  does anyone know where did she gain this information?  From her mother?  From her grandmother?   From FS herself?

Like I've said all along,  I  don't believe AA was GD Anastasia, so,  don't be confused as I continue to try and sort out what is  good information  from  information that doesn't hold up under the weight of  scrutiny.


AGRBear

"My auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the four children,' said Waltruat Schanzkowski, who now lives in Hamburg."  wrote Kleir and Mingay.   These were the same words  Massie wrote.   

In this site the word "four"  was removed:   http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html:

Why?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 10, 2007, 08:36:10 PM
Up to such boring games again AGR Bear? Yawn. Time for AGR Bear to hibernate again.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 10, 2007, 08:47:35 PM
Up to such boring games again AGR Bear? Yawn. Time for AGR Bear to hibernate again.
You mean when it is winter time! ;D I am sure Bear will hibernate then! Their just talking more information about FS. It is nothing interesting or famous to know. I mean Bear simply chooses to believe in that stuff.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 10, 2007, 09:00:08 PM
Bear, why don't you tear apart pro AA sources like this? You could find quite a bit of inaccuracies in "File on the Tsar" too. You are only out to get this guy because he disagrees with you. You gave the 1922-->21 nurse the benefit of the doubt but not FS's neice. He probably left out the four to stop you from ranting on about the half sister theory! Gertrude really was their sister, they all claimed her even though they denied Franziska!

The 'four' thing also got me thinking about something I have done all my life but never really noticed until now. My Dad came from a family of 13 kids, but when I talk about them, I always say 12, 12 brothers and sisters, the 12 kids, etc. even though I knew there were 13. I guess it's because maybe subconciously I didn't add my Dad in with 'the kids' or 'brothers and sisters' because, well, he was my Dad. I guess it was the number of kids other than your parent? Maybe it was something like that, or maybe she just miscounted. You can nitpick at anything if you look hard enough.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 11, 2007, 12:27:29 AM
Bear, why don't you tear apart pro AA sources like this? You could find quite a bit of inaccuracies in "File on the Tsar" too. You are only out to get this guy because he disagrees with you. You gave the 1922-->21 nurse the benefit of the doubt but not FS's neice. He probably left out the four to stop you from ranting on about the half sister theory! Gertrude really was their sister, they all claimed her even though they denied Franziska!

The 'four' thing also got me thinking about something I have done all my life but never really noticed until now. My Dad came from a family of 13 kids, but when I talk about them, I always say 12, 12 brothers and sisters, the 12 kids, etc. even though I knew there were 13. I guess it's because maybe subconciously I didn't add my Dad in with 'the kids' or 'brothers and sisters' because, well, he was my Dad. I guess it was the number of kids other than your parent? Maybe it was something like that, or maybe she just miscounted. You can nitpick at anything if you look hard enough.

I believe we are talking about this particular site and what was written. And,  yes,  I am asking,  does this site have  information which  is completely correct, or does it have   a few errors or is riddled with misinformation.   

Annie,  in case you've never noticed:   It is my nature to  question everything I read,  no matter who the author is.

In this source:   I am wondering why the word "four" was eliminated.  And,  it seems without any effort Annie might have given us the answer:  >> He probably left out the four to stop... the half sister theory! !<<

For those who don't know,  the  number of  siblings  is  NOT four but five when Gertrude is included.
1. FS
2. Gertrude
3. Valerien
4. Felix
5. Juliane


Although Annie's SPECULATION about why Walraut  might have accidently been in error is interesting but the truth is,  we'd have to contact her to know if she mispoke and then if we're lucky   she could write us back  telling us why she stated "four" instead of five.

This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

AGRBear   

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 11, 2007, 02:34:17 AM
How very, very boring and how very, very tedious AGR Bear. It is quite well documented, if you bother for once, to do some real research yourself for once, rather than relying on others all the time, that Anna Anderson was not Grand Duchess Anastasia or any other Romanov and that Anna Anderson's DNA matched Carl Maucher who was a blood relative of Franziska Schankowska. There is nothing to debate as her identity has been revealed completely. Put away your tired and totally disproven nonsense and stop exposing yourself to ridicule. The game is up and there is nothing else to be found out. Really your repeating the same rinaccurate ubbish is very, very boring. Do some research yourself for a change.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 11, 2007, 06:21:43 AM
How very, very boring and how very, very tedious AGR Bear. It is quite well documented, if you bother for once, to do some real research yourself for once, rather than relying on others all the time, that Anna Anderson was not Grand Duchess Anastasia or any other Romanov and that Anna Anderson's DNA matched Carl Maucher who was a blood relative of Franziska Schankowska. There is nothing to debate as her identity has been revealed completely. Put away your tired and totally disproven nonsense and stop exposing yourself to ridicule. The game is up and there is nothing else to be found out. Really your repeating the same rinaccurate ubbish is very, very boring. Do some research yourself for a change.
Yes I agree they continue to repeat the same thing oven and over again. Yes AA identidy has be reveealed completly with the DNA tests. The point is that she was Franziska Schankowska. People just realy keep on believing in that, and can not do nothing about it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Lemur on August 11, 2007, 10:59:00 AM
I have some information I hope will satisfy Bear's thirst for answers! Though Massie is often criticized by Andersen supporters for not having sources in "The Final Chapter", they have not looked very hard. I am holding a copy right now, and he does indeed have a section titled "sources and acknowledgements" He begins by stating on page 293that:

Most of the written sources of my understanding of Nicholas II, his family and his era are listed in the bibliography of my earlier book, Nicholas and Alexandra.

I think what he's saying is that he has already done so much extensive research and documented it that he feels he can now pull from his past work and stored personal knowledge and not have to redocument everything. He has built himself a reputation he can stand on, and I accept his explaination.

He also lists many other books he read and used as reference for this book, and names a long, long list of individuals he interviewed, and places where he talked to people in the town, like Ekaterinburg. You can verify this for yourself (my copy is a new paperback, Ballentine books)

On the case of Anna Anderson, and the various quotes on Franziska's family, he gave his sources as:

P.295
Brien Horan was kind enough to  give me a copy of his unpublished manuscript on the evidence on both sides of the Anna Anderson case. I am grateful to Dr. Gunther von Berensberg-Gossler for permitting me to see a chapter of his unpublished work on Franziska Schanzkowksa. Michael Thornton was generous, not only with his vast collection of Anna Anderson correspondence and memorabilia, but with his time and counsel.


So there you go. He had access to some books that were being written on the case by Horan and Berensberg-Gossler which have, as far as I know, never been published. The details, and probably a lot more I'd love to see, were in there. I am hoping against hope these works will see the light of day.

I am having to type all this out by hand, if anyone wants to see more, consult the book. It's there.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 11, 2007, 11:53:42 AM
Thank you very much Lemur! :D That is excellent and valuable information. I too would love to read those writings on FS. I'm afraid Dr. Gossler must have passed away by now and I wonder what will become of his papers.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 10:35:39 AM
I have some information I hope will satisfy Bear's thirst for answers! Though Massie is often criticized by Andersen supporters for not having sources in "The Final Chapter", they have not looked very hard. I am holding a copy right now, and he does indeed have a section titled "sources and acknowledgements" He begins by stating on page 293that:

Most of the written sources of my understanding of Nicholas II, his family and his era are listed in the bibliography of my earlier book, Nicholas and Alexandra.

I think what he's saying is that he has already done so much extensive research and documented it that he feels he can now pull from his past work and stored personal knowledge and not have to redocument everything. He has built himself a reputation he can stand on, and I accept his explaination.

He also lists many other books he read and used as reference for this book, and names a long, long list of individuals he interviewed, and places where he talked to people in the town, like Ekaterinburg. You can verify this for yourself (my copy is a new paperback, Ballentine books)

On the case of Anna Anderson, and the various quotes on Franziska's family, he gave his sources as:

P.295
Brien Horan was kind enough to  give me a copy of his unpublished manuscript on the evidence on both sides of the Anna Anderson case. I am grateful to Dr. Gunther von Berensberg-Gossler for permitting me to see a chapter of his unpublished work on Franziska Schanzkowksa. Michael Thornton was generous, not only with his vast collection of Anna Anderson correspondence and memorabilia, but with his time and counsel.


So there you go. He had access to some books that were being written on the case by Horan and Berensberg-Gossler which have, as far as I know, never been published. The details, and probably a lot more I'd love to see, were in there. I am hoping against hope these works will see the light of day.

I am having to type all this out by hand, if anyone wants to see more, consult the book. It's there.

Very informative Lemur.  Thank you.

In my hardback the quote starts on page 294.... I don't think I've ever read the part of the book. 

Massie also mentions Peter Kurth:

>>There are two relatively recent biographies of Anna Anderson:  Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson[/] by Peter Kurth and The Last Princess by James Blair Lowvell.  In depth of reserach, style of writting, and seriouness of purpose, Kurth's book is infintely superior.<<

There is a long list of books and people from whom Massie drew his information.  I'm afraid we have to guess which of those listed gave him the quote from  Walraut S..

That said,  Massie did appear to give us the full sentence and did not eliminate  "four"  from Walraut S.'s quote.

This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

AGRBear

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 11:12:55 AM
Step #3

This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

>> Franziska began working in a munitions factory where, she let a grenade slip from her hands on the assembly line. It exploded, blowing apart the foreman standing next to her; she herself suffered splinter wounds on her head and other parts of her body. <<

This pulls us back into an old thread where this heated  discussion has taken place.

Penny Wilson, the co-author of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS  informed us that she [I think  she said it was her....if it wasn't,  maybe it was Greg ...] had seen copies of the doctors report written at the AEG factory's  hostpital which tells us that FS did NOT recieve any serious wounds from the explosition which killed another worker [foreman].   

This particular thread ended up in turmoil because some of the posters wanted to see a copy of this report and were denied because  Penny Wilson will keep this for a book and did not feel obligated to give it [the actual copied document]  to the world any earlier.

Quotes from Massie and other books tell us that FS did suffer wounds from the explosion.   Perhaps they did not see the medical reports, and,  like many posters,  assumed that anyone who dropped a grenade, especialy as crude as was being made in those days,  would have injured  the person, whom we are told in this case that was FS,  who had dropped the grenade.  And,  so,  it is understandable that many  will continue to believe FS was injured until they see Penny Wilson's proof. 

I believe there is a quote from Gertrude about a superficial wound.

From what I understand,  FS was not held in the hospital and was realeased the same day of the accident.

Since I haven't seen the medical reports,  I will avoid farther debate.  I've voiced my opinion on the thread which dealt with the original discussion, and my conclusion was:  I shall wait for the evidence to be presented elsewhere, either in a book or whereever  since it appears  a medical report may exist, before I debate farther. [When or if I find the thread,  I'll place the link here.]


AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 12, 2007, 11:21:12 AM
How very tedious yet again AGR Bear. How very boring. One of these days you will accept proven fact and not come out with such errant nonsense repeatedly.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 11:24:04 AM
This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

Step #4:

<<The treatment she subsequently received in a sanatorium helped her over her physical injuries, but did little to repair the psychological damage. Franziska was finally declared 'not cured, but not dangerous' and discharged; she was taken in by a family called Wingender, almost as a charity case.>>

I don't think there is any kind of disagreement to the fact that FS wouldl have suffered "psychological damage" having caused the accidently death of  the forman.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 12, 2007, 11:30:51 AM
yawn how boring yet again
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 11:34:28 AM
This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html


Step #5:

>>Franziska was finally declared 'not cured, but not dangerous' and discharged; she was taken in by a family called Wingender, almost as a charity case. <<

I'm not sure who told us this but this information has been repeated so many times that it seems to have taken up the role of  being a  fact without a direct source.   Is this from Massie,  too?

Does anyone know how the Wingenders first heard about FS and why they became interested in her?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 12, 2007, 11:35:53 AM
More boring rubbish AGR Bear.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 11:57:15 AM
This is the site of which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

Step #6:

>>The next period of her life she spent in and out of sanatoria, swallowing pills and complaining of headaches. Her favorite pastime was lying in bed, reading history books from the local library.<<

This has also been repeated many times.  I assume the source comes from the Wingenders.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 12:05:50 PM
Let me remind you what Helen has recently stated over on another thread:

This is why it's always a good idea to check sources in books if possible, and not just take information for granted... Sometimes this information could be based on unsubstantiated rumors, or simply just blown out of proportion....

Of course,  after reading the sources,  my opinion on a point in a topic may differ than yours or the authors or even the person who was making the quote [the source itself].

This is the source and the  site from which these quotes came from  which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 12:21:35 PM
This is the source and the  site from which these quotes came from  which we are discussing:  http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

>>From 1919 to 1920 then Franziska worked in a brewery in Buetow washing bottles.<<

Where did this information come from?

If this is true:  I had not known this.

I'll have to look up this town and see where Buetow  is and how close it is to Berlin.

If true:  Was FS  staying at the Wingenders at this time?

Small correction: 
From what I understand,  there is evidence  that FS was working in the asparagus fields near Berlin sometime in  Jan. to sometime in Feb. of 1920.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 12:36:54 PM
Here is a site with some interesting information about Buetow.

http://members.tripod.com/~radde/Milestones.html

See the history of Pomeranian around the years 1919 to 1932.

map:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image%3APommern_Kr_B%C3%BCtow.png

Still don't see how close it is to Berlin:
map #2
http://kaszuby.bytow.pl/radde/Buetow-Kreiskarte.gif

map#3
http://www.hinterpommern.de/Karten/Buetow/gemeinden.png

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 01:23:27 PM
http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=64922&rendTypeId=4

This shows the general areas of Prussia.

Note the distance of Berlin to Pomerania

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 02:21:34 PM
If you go to mapquest or another map finder,  look for the name Bytow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byt%C3%B3w

Seeing the distance from Berlin,  it doesn't seem to me that FS would have traveled from Buetow/ Bytwo every night.   

How much in touch were the Wingenders with FS during this time?

Did she return to the Wingenders on the weekends???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 12, 2007, 02:56:28 PM
Dmitri I can understand i know I also think it is boring more information about that fraud it seems people are still trying to defend AA once again but realy noboby cares about her their not intrested, but obviously Bear is ignoring you becuase they want to still talk about AA as if she was famous and did great things that is just their choice no point in even saying anything. Let them believe whatever they want.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 12, 2007, 04:23:50 PM
If you go to mapquest or another map finder,  look for the name Bytow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byt%C3%B3w

Seeing the distance from Berlin,  it doesn't seem to me that FS would have traveled from Buetow/ Bytwo every night.   

How much in touch were the Wingenders with FS during this time?

Did she return to the Wingenders on the weekends???

AGRBear

If she was working out of town for days at a time, that would be a good reason to explain why they didn't think anything of her being gone so long, and why they took so long to report her as missing.

What are the sources of the aparagus field? These jobs are either conflicting, or the timeline is off. I would guess she had worked on the farm the year before, and was working at the bottle factory just before she went missing.

The bad thing about letting people believe whatever they want is that it might mislead someone coming here for answers. So as long as bear is putting this stuff out there, I will continue to respond.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 12, 2007, 04:47:30 PM
yawn its like a broken record
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 12, 2007, 06:50:45 PM

The bad thing about letting people believe whatever they want is that it might mislead someone coming here for answers. So as long as bear is putting this stuff out there, I will continue to respond.
Yes that is true that would be the wrong information, but they just don't want to believe the truth that is their choose. :-X But don't you get sick and tied of hearing the same suff over and over again like a broken record over and over again! It is true that it would not be a good idea for them to leave out the wrong info for people to read and believe it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 09:09:52 PM
If you go to mapquest or another map finder,  look for the name Bytow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byt%C3%B3w

Seeing the distance from Berlin,  it doesn't seem to me that FS would have traveled from Buetow/ Bytwo every night.   

How much in touch were the Wingenders with FS during this time?

Did she return to the Wingenders on the weekends???

AGRBear

If she was working out of town for days at a time, that would be a good reason to explain why they didn't think anything of her being gone so long, and why they took so long to report her as missing.

Yes,  this could be one of the reasons if she was in Buetow or in the asparagus fields.

Quote

What are the sources of the aparagus field? These jobs are either conflicting, or the timeline is off. I would guess she had worked on the farm the year before, and was working at the bottle factory just before she went missing.

Yes, the times are conflicting.

And,  you are speculating without any kind of proof that FS was not working in asparagus fields in Jan. and into Feb. 1920 because you are  using this article which tells us that FS washing bottles most of 1919 and into Feb. of 1920.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?action=post;msg=277298;topic=2782.165;sesc=fb6093b0049e273740e9792f1bcdedb8
>>From 1919 to 1920 then Franziska worked in a brewery in Buetow washing bottles.<<

Another note to this:   Wingenders may  have been stretching the truth when they claim she was sitting in bed all those days [after she left the sanitatium where she was placed after the accident at the factory to the time they reported her missing 9 March 1920],  popping pills and reading history books when in fact she was working at a brewery and aspagagus fields.

I have been told  there are/were  records which tell us that FS was working in a brewery and  asparagus fields outside of Berlin and there is testimony from people who worked at that time with her.   I don't know the exact dates.  I do  recall the months of Jan. and Feb. of 1920 she was working in the asparagus fields.

At another time somewhere on this forum,  Annie disputed the fact that people worked in asparagus fields in those months,  one of our posters linked us to a site which told us some background on asparagus and that indeed these months were busy times for workers in these fields.  [Maybe some can remember where this was discussed and link it here.].

What difference does it make that FS was working first in a brewery and then the fields?  Evidently,  she was making a living so she could survive like others in and around Berlin were doing at that time. 

Also,  it seems to me,  FS  wasn't living full time with the Wingenders either.

Quote
The bad thing about letting people believe whatever they want is that it might mislead someone coming here for answers. So as long as bear is putting this stuff out there, I will continue to respond.

You have stated that you believe all the information on this particular site http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html
 is true and that you are using some of it in one of your own articles.   Perhaps you could view what I'm doing not as being destructive but constructive.  Believe it or not,   I'd like your article to be accurate.

AGRBear





Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 12, 2007, 09:14:43 PM
The record is not just cracked, it is now broken and only fit for the trash bin. Yawn!!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2007, 10:10:04 PM
dmitri,

I hope you had a nice day.  I know I did.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 12, 2007, 10:32:46 PM
Bear I never meant it was completely true, who'd know? I'm just saying, why pick it to death when you readily accept other questionable evidence like 'the medical records have been found' (no proof) or FS was 5'6" (no proof other than one person's word who was wrong) See it seems like if anything is pro AA you buy it hook line and sinker but if it's pro FS you tear it apart and try to find reasons why it's wrong. Sure tells what you want to be true. In reality, how do we know any of this stuff is accurate? It's just stuff said by a lot of dead folk and we can never prove any of it. The only hardcore proof we have is DNA.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 12, 2007, 11:10:12 PM
Spot on Annie and the DNA proves that Anna Anderson and Franziska S were one and the same person. There is nowhere else to go with it. It is finished and all solved. Put it to rest AGR Bear and do everyone here a favour. She was a total fraud from beginning to end. It's time to accept the reality of it all.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 13, 2007, 04:15:40 AM
yawn its like a broken record

If you are so bored Dmitri, why don't you go away and do something else?  You are the one becoming a broken record ....
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 13, 2007, 04:21:13 AM

At another time somewhere on this forum,  Annie disputed the fact that people worked in asparagus fields in those months,  one of our posters linked us to a site which told us some background on asparagus and that indeed these months were busy times for workers in these fields.  [Maybe some can remember where this was discussed and link it here.].

AGRBear



Bear, it was me and I believe this is the link
http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/easygardening/asparagus/asparagus.html
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 13, 2007, 10:48:24 AM
Thank you ferrymansdaughter.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Lemur on August 13, 2007, 10:58:08 AM
"The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" Robert K. Massie, pages 178-179 softback:

Doris Wingender said that Franziska had been a lodger in her mother's home until her disappearance in March 1920. Over two years later, during the summer of 1922, Doris reported, Franziska had suddenly returned and said that she had been living with a number of Russian monarchist families "who apparently mistook her for someone else." Franziska had stayed for three days, Doris continued, and while she was there, the two women had exchanged clothing: Franziska took from Doris a dark blue suit....she handed over a mauve dress, some monogrammed underwear, and a camel's hair coat. Then, once again, Franzkisa vanished.

To verify the story ,the newspaper hired a detective, Martin Knopf, who took the clothing Franziska had left behind at the Wingenders' to one of the Russian emigre households where Fraulein U. had stayed in 1922. Baron and Baroness von Kleist recognized it. "I bought the camel's hair myself." said the baron, "That's the underwear I monogrammed myself" cried the baroness. For the benefit of the newspapers, the "Riddle of Anastasia" was solved.


While it does go on to say she had called the newspaper herself with the story and wanted to sell it, I don't accept as the Anderson camp does that this meant she was lying. The clothes prove she wasn't lying. Of course she wanted money, she was poor, and she thought she could get money out of being part of a famous case. Who wouldn't? It doesn't mean she lied. If she was going to lie in order to set AA up at FS, she wouldn't have given the accounts of her being 'stocky and big boned' because at that time AA wasn't (maybe she had been before the TB?)

page 180, account of a writer for the paper:

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.


I was unaware these incidents had occured. You would think they'd have been a huge blow to her claim??
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 13, 2007, 10:59:26 AM
When I was going back through this thread to make up a updated list,  I noiced that Richard Schweitzer told us that FS did not attend her last years of school in her home village but attended school in Bytow/ Buetow until the age of 16.

So,  FS was already familar with Bytow / Buetow where the brewery factory was where this article claimed she was  "washing bottles".

We have been discussing the information found in the article:

http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 13, 2007, 11:12:12 AM
This site has changed and the entire section is, now, readable,  and starts out with the following:

>>I first met Prince Friedrich in 1977 when he invited me to Unterlengenhardt to see his archeological dig, trough which he found out that the Huns reached in fact that deep into what is now S.Germany. In spite of the fact that I felt sorry about some of his Anthroposophical influenced beliefs, he was a sincere and multi-talented man. He told me all about his visiting with the Royal family of Belgium and in England, in order to convince them, and talk about whom they all had in common as family members; the last Tsar and his children who were murdered in 1917. One evening by dimmed lights he also told me that the illegal daughter the Tsarina had with Rasputin, would have been left to go to France with 'Maitre Philippe'-- that’s when I realized how much Franziska was able to 'bamboozle' him.<<

We have been discussing the information found in the article:

http://www.raphaelvishanu-world.at/PrinceFriedrich.html


A new thread should be,  if there isn't one already,  created about this ilegal dlaughter topic,  I know nothing of this and it has nothing to do with  FS's Timeline which ends  on    8 March 1920.   AA's Timeline is on another thread.

I assume when the author states that "Franziska was able to 'bamboozle' him",  he is referring to AA.

I am only repeating it here to let everyone know that the site has allowed us to see the first part of this article.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 13, 2007, 11:51:01 AM
"The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" Robert K. Massie, pages 178-179 softback:

Doris Wingender said that Franziska had been a lodger in her mother's home until her disappearance in March 1920. Over two years later, during the summer of 1922, Doris reported, Franziska had suddenly returned and said that she had been living with a number of Russian monarchist families "who apparently mistook her for someone else." Franziska had stayed for three days, Doris continued, and while she was there, the two women had exchanged clothing: Franziska took from Doris a dark blue suit....she handed over a mauve dress, some monogrammed underwear, and a camel's hair coat. Then, once again, Franzkisa vanished.

To verify the story ,the newspaper hired a detective, Martin Knopf, who took the clothing Franziska had left behind at the Wingenders' to one of the Russian emigre households where Fraulein U. had stayed in 1922. Baron and Baroness von Kleist recognized it. "I bought the camel's hair myself." said the baron, "That's the underwear I monogrammed myself" cried the baroness. For the benefit of the newspapers, the "Riddle of Anastasia" was solved.


While it does go on to say she had called the newspaper herself with the story and wanted to sell it, I don't accept as the Anderson camp does that this meant she was lying. The clothes prove she wasn't lying. Of course she wanted money, she was poor, and she thought she could get money out of being part of a famous case. Who wouldn't? It doesn't mean she lied. If she was going to lie in order to set AA up at FS, she wouldn't have given the accounts of her being 'stocky and big boned' because at that time AA wasn't (maybe she had been before the TB?)

page 180, account of a writer for the paper:

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.


I was unaware these incidents had occured. You would think they'd have been a huge blow to her claim??

This should be taken over to the AA Timeline because it is after 8 March 1920 and the topic here is FS before  8  March 1920.

We could use this part here:

>>Doris Wingender said that Franziska had been a lodger in her mother's home until her disappearance in March 1920. <<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 14, 2007, 03:08:02 AM
The record is now broken. There is nothing else to talk about here. Try to read about the real Grand Duchess Anastasia AGR Bear. You might actually learn some fact and not be away with the fairies on the fantasy trip of AA and FS. They have never had anything to do with Russian history.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 14, 2007, 08:52:38 AM
The record is now broken. There is nothing else to talk about here. Try to read about the real Grand Duchess Anastasia AGR Bear. You might actually learn some fact and not be away with the fairies on the fantasy trip of AA and FS. They have never had anything to do with Russian history.
Yes that is right she only had something to do with Polish history not Russian.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 14, 2007, 09:10:12 AM
and an insignificant part of that as well
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2007, 12:08:25 PM
Bear I never meant it was completely true...
...[in part]....

Now,  other posters can view which parts of this site can be stated as accurate and which parts I don't think should be.  Now,  it's  up to the posters who have  been given other sources to read and make up their own minds.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 05:52:04 PM
Everyone is going to believe what they want to believe. Look at you, you only use a few words of my post in a misleading way. We don't know all those 'sacred' quotes from "Riddle of Anastasia" were accurate or truthful, either. The only hardcore evidence is the DNA and you, Bear, refuse to accept it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 16, 2007, 06:15:28 PM
Everyone is going to believe what they want to believe. Look at you, you only use a few words of my post in a misleading way. We don't know all those 'sacred' quotes from "Riddle of Anastasia" were accurate or truthful, either. The only hardcore evidence is the DNA and you, Bear, refuse to accept it.
She sure does refuses to accept that fact that we have DNA as a major evidence it is realy sad that she does not want to accept the fact. Anyway Bear believes that everything has to be accuate first before it is right to believe it. Actaully in some cases you do not have to know if some things are either accurate or inaccurate from other books and website , becuase you have other hardcore evidence to suggest if it is wrong or right. Anyway since you keep on talking about their heights that means it must be that you do not believe in the DNA or simply refuse to believe in it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 16, 2007, 06:26:35 PM
Very true. If she really accepted the DNA she still wouldn't be talking about height.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 17, 2007, 01:17:58 AM
very true .. any old red herring will do to try to deny reality
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 17, 2007, 08:46:17 AM
Now,  that certain misinformation has been disclosed,  let us see what facts we do have  up to the 8th of March 1920 about FS that we can agree?

Date of birth: 

AGRBear's quote:
Quote
>>>1896<<< 
Date  of birth: 
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.   


Can we agree on this?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 17, 2007, 09:16:17 AM
Post #16 in Annie's thread called "Franziska--and interesting story on her own"

>>>1896<<< 
Date  of birth: 
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland. 

See my message on Borowy Las:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg257373.html#msg257373

Quote
>>>ca 1902/3  to ca 1912<<<
FS attended school and for some of the time or all of the time was in "Bytow, quite some distance from her family's house"

Bytów is about 13 miles (21 km) from Borowy Las (as the crow flies)...

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 17, 2007, 09:45:30 AM
Thanks, Bear. 13 miles is hardly 'quite some distance' for a commute by today's standards, but back then it was if you didn't have a car. It would take you all day to walk that distance and back.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 17, 2007, 10:02:35 AM
...[in part]....

Quote
"Bororwihlas" is absolutely wrong. Correct polish spelling is: "Borowy Las", and Kashubian: "Bòròwë Las".

As far as I remember "Borowihlas" (without second "r") was a germanized form (phonetically written) of "Borowy Las", but "Borowihlas" does not mean anything in German while in Polish "Borowy Las" means 'an impenetrable/ancient coniferous forest'.

Borowy Las (Polish)
Borowe Las (Kasbubian)
Borowihlas (German)
Bororwhlas

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 17, 2007, 10:49:50 AM
Quote
  Do we by any chance know what the population of this village was back in the late 1800's/early 1900's? If it was relatively small, I bet that cousins often intermarried... Is 'Bororwihlas' the correct spelling? It doesn't look right...

That is the spelling I got from Massie....

MY ERROR: I misspelled  the village name.  I left out the "i".

Should be "Bororwihlas"  as found in Massie's book  THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER.


And,  yes,  Annie,  13 milies does seem like a long way to walk. 

It would take me a couple of days with a lot of stops. 

In those days,  people were use to walking distances,  so,  how long would it take to walk 13 miles at a normal pace (not in a hurry /  not running)?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 17, 2007, 12:17:36 PM
Pictures of FS's family:

To save you the trouble of thread hopping, here are the photos you asked for, P_M:

Gertrude Schanzkowska Ellerik in late middle age:
(http://img201.exs.cx/img201/8595/gertrude3iz.jpg) 

Maria Juliana: (http://img201.exs.cx/img201/5407/juliana5te.jpg)

Felix Schanzkowski (taken some time in the 1950's):
(http://img39.exs.cx/img39/4383/felix1ls.jpg)

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 17, 2007, 12:32:12 PM
The topic is Franziska Schankowska - get back on track AGR Bear or is that impossible for you?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 17, 2007, 12:58:01 PM
Bear the topic is not about FS family it is about FS herself. Please get back on topic why do those pictures have to do with FS I mean their her family but it is suppose to be about her life.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 17, 2007, 08:48:29 PM
It looks like Bear has lost the plot, again.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 18, 2007, 02:42:46 PM
The above are photographs of  the children of Anton Schanzkowsky (Schanskowski) and,  I believe, are important to FS's Timeline  since they are family. 


Updating Family chart  (18 Aug 2007):
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek  
 Issue:  [unknown]  
 
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna Wiscek~   b.  1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Marianna  remarried to ___NN___] about 1913/14    Believed she died about 1927/28.
     Issue m. (2) are:  
    1. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895  
    2. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny and Berlin police records]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896  
     3.*  Gertrude S.  b. poss. 12 Nov  1898 m. ____ Ellerick
                  Children:
                    1) Gertrud Ellerick m. __ Maucher  Child was:
                                (1) Carl Maucher +
                    2)  Hedwig Ellerick m.  __ Lander
                     3) Margarete Ellerick+    [no marriage]
                    4) Magdalene Ellrick m. __ Weber  Child was:
                                (1) Herbert Weber
    
    4.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899  
    5.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901  
    6.  Felix S. b. 17 February 1903  
    7. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905

      Five survived to adulthood.  
   
 ---  
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3)?? to  ___NN3___    
 Issue:    
   1. [unknown]    
 
NOTES
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown;  GS's birth and baptism records  are not found in   places  were other  siblings or other members of the  family are found; however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 12 Nov 1898 which would place her  as child #3 
+ DNA tested
~ mtDNA  family lineage of FS

? Waltruat Schanzkowska:  Massie's book has a quote of hers which tells us FS was her "auntie".   Who's daughter was she?  Her mother's name?

Any corrections or additions at this time???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2007, 02:50:01 PM
I think Waltruat (is that pronounced Wall Trout?) is Felix's daughter. It doesn't matter that she didn't know her 'Auntie', she heard the tales. In my family, I could write whole screenplays on the relatives- and even family neighbors- I have heard the old folks tell tales of even though I never personally met them. And it also doesn't matter if a person looks like their siblings or not, it doesn't mean they weren't related. I don't look like any of mine, and my two kids look nothing alike and you'd never guess they had the same parents. That pic of Felix is blurry, it looks like if it were clearer, he might have FS's lips and chin. Karl Maucher resembles a young AA.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 18, 2007, 03:00:10 PM
I think Waltruat (is that pronounced Wall Trout?) is Felix's daughter.
...[in part]...

Since Massie called her  Waltraut  Schanzkowsky,  I assumed she was the daughter of Felix or Valerian.   Where did you find this information?   I thought it was Massie but he just tells us where she lived at the time  when he gave her quotes  about her "auntie" which are so often repeated.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2007, 03:18:26 PM
I just always heard it was Felix's daughter who gets quoted so I assumed.

I have been looking for an official death date for both parents but can't find one. Anybody?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2007, 03:22:28 PM
Quote
6.  Felix S. b. 17 February 1903 

Oooh! Is this right for sure? Well I have me a wild goose theory. Since FS jumped into the canal on Feb. 17, is it possible she was hurt by and estranged from or having some kind of issues with her brother Felix so she wanted to commit suicide on his birthday to leave him feeling guilty? And remember there's a story about the card, and the comment about being late, so maybe that was like a 'political statement' to make him feel bad? Sure is weird, if the date is correct, that she would choose her brother's birthday to end it all! Gosh I sure would like to know the real story behind this.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 19, 2007, 10:02:00 AM
Quote
6.  Felix S. b. 17 February 1903 

Oooh! Is this right for sure? Well I have me a wild goose theory. Since FS jumped into the canal on Feb. 17, is it possible she was hurt by and estranged from or having some kind of issues with her brother Felix so she wanted to commit suicide on his birthday to leave him feeling guilty? And remember there's a story about the card, and the comment about being late, so maybe that was like a 'political statement' to make him feel bad? Sure is weird, if the date is correct, that she would choose her brother's birthday to end it all! Gosh I sure would like to know the real story behind this.

Yes,  the date of AA's  attempted sucide is interesting if  one realizes that Fexlix S.'s birthday was the same day.

What is even more interesting is that Felix recieved his birthday card from FS  which stated that she had been busy and was sorry to be sending it late and that Felix didn't recieve this card for another two weeks,  which would have made it the end of Feb. or first part of March.   This card /  card and evelope  were collected by the police.  It held the post mark which in those days showed the date which it was sent from Berlin.   This evidence disapeared along with a lot of other information.   It is thought that it may have been sent  which to Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse's   Hardenburg  who was collecting FS evidence at that time for the Hesse family.  When Felix was asked later,  he remembered that the card was recieved by him two weeks after his birthday which  is/was  17 Feb..   

Massie's  book  p. 250:

>>In Feb 1920, her favorite brother, Felix, received a last message from her.  On Ferurary 17, 1920 she disappeared.<<


Klier and Mingay wrote p. 224:

>>The last the Schazkowskis heard of their sister was a birthday card she sent to her brother Felix in Februrary 1920.  On 17 Feb 1920, Fraulein Unbekannt was recued by a police officer from the Landwehr canal."

Neither give us their sources.

Annie and I have discussed the time it took for mail to be delievered in Germany in Feb. and I found that it took a day for regular routes and no longer than three days in Feb. to early March 1920.   Why it took  FS's card to reach her brother  two weeks is not known.   We have two schools of thought:  (1)  somehow the card was lost and finally reached Felix late...., or,  (2) the postage date on the card revealed that it was mailed by FS after 17 Feb., which is the date of Felix S.'s birthday and so it was simply discarded by someone who preferred  this wasn't discovered or it was accidently misplaced then lost,  either way,  this evidence is gone,  accept that Felix remembers that his card was two weeks late.


AGRBear





Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 19, 2007, 10:13:53 AM
Farther down the same page in the Kleir and Mingay book p. 224 they write:

>>...Felix's daughter has told reporters that her father talked about his sister Franziska with pride, saying she go away and made a new sucessful life for herself.  However,  she does like to be paid for her reminiscences."

Is this Waltraut S. to whom they are referring?

If so,  then what we're getting from her is  "heresay"  given for a price,  which makes her "reminiscences" which cannot be considered as fact.  Right or wrong?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 19, 2007, 10:17:32 AM
Updating Family FS's chart  (19 Aug 2007):
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek 
 Issue:  [unknown] 
 
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna Wiscek~   b.  1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Marianna  remarried to ___NN___] about 1913/14    Believed she died about 1927/28.
     Issue m. (2) are:   
    1. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895 
    2. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny and Berlin police records]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896 
     3.*  Gertrude S.  b. poss. 12 Nov  1898 m. ____ Ellerick
                  Children:
                    1) Gertrud Ellerick m. __ Maucher  Child was:
                                (1) Carl Maucher +
                    2)  Hedwig Ellerick m.  __ Lander
                     3) Margarete Ellerick+    [no marriage]
                    4) Magdalene Ellrick m. __ Weber  Child was:
                                (1) Herbert Weber
   
    4.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899 
    5.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901 
    6.  Felix S. b. 17 February 1903  m.  __NN____   Child was:
                    1) Waltraut S. 
    7. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905

      Five survived to adulthood. 
   
 --- 
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3)?? to  ___NN___   
 Issue:   
   1. [unknown]   
 
NOTES
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown;  GS's birth and baptism records  are not found in   places  were other  siblings or other members of the  family are found; however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 12 Nov 1898 which would place her  as child #3 
+ DNA tested
~ mtDNA  family lineage of FS
__NN__ = no name known



Any other corrections or additions at this time???

AGRBear
[/quote]
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 19, 2007, 05:19:29 PM
None of what you are attempting is going to change the fact that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schankowska. This has been proved completely by DNA testing. Time to get a life AGR Bear and stop your obssession.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 20, 2007, 08:46:06 AM
None of what you are attempting is going to change the fact that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schankowska. This has been proved completely by DNA testing. Time to get a life AGR Bear and stop your obssession.

Sorry to partly agree with Dmitri, here, AGR Bear but where are you going with this exactly?  I apologise in advance for being so slow but I'm still a newbie and have a lot to learn.

Kind regards
Sophie
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 20, 2007, 10:19:33 AM
Where am I going with this Timeline?

This is about FS's Timeline. This thread is just about FS and her life before 9 March 1920.  This thread is not about her becoming  AA or being killed by Grossmann or catching a boat to England as a domestic. There are plenty of other threads where these topics are discussed.  So,  please,  don't get hung up on the misinformation that I've some kind of agenda to prove FS wasn't AA.    I don't care where the truth of her life takes us. I am just enjoying the journey.

Obviously,  some posters do not wish to know the facts about FS between the years 1896 when she was born to the time she was reported missing in March of 1920.  That's fine with me.   Meanwhile,  my intentions are to continue this thread about  her life through this period of time.

Next  Step:

From what I understand,  FS's first language in her home was Kashubian which was spoken by her parents who evidently were part of this community which  at that time was in the ruling govt. of the German Empire.

Around the age of 6, ( about 1902) young FS was known to have gone to school in her village.  Because it was required that all public and private schools in the German Empire were taught in the German language,  I assume,  that FS was then thrust into the situation where she had to learn to speak German just like the others attending her school. 

According to FS's brother,  his sister FS learned to speak German.

Can we all agree on this stage of FS's life?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 20, 2007, 10:35:09 AM
If you'd really like to learn accurate information about the Kushubian  people go to the organization of FEEFHS found at:

  http://feefhs.org/kana/frg-kana.html

I have worked with them and they are GREAT and this is quote from their front page. 

>>Geographic Location of Kaszuby: The geographical area of Kaszuby is essentially a trianglular shaped area in northern Poland directly south of the Baltic Sea and between the Odra (Oder) and the Wisla (Vistula) Rivers. Included are the present day Polish provinces of Bydgoszcz, Gdansk and Slupsk. It is the homeland of the ancient Slavic tribe known as the Kaszubes.<<

Information on the language:

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Kashubes

A little history on Pomerinia where FS lived:

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Pomerania

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 20, 2007, 01:07:36 PM
Quote
I don't care where the truth of her life takes us. I am just enjoying the journey.

If this were really true, you wouldn't post most of the stuff you do because you'd believe AA was FS.

But if you want to research the life of young FS/AA just for information purposes as long as you aren't using it to prove she wasn't AA that's fine. I would like to know more about the girl who became AA.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 20, 2007, 07:20:29 PM
Quote
I don't care where the truth of her life takes us. I am just enjoying the journey.

If this were really true, you wouldn't post most of the stuff you do because you'd believe AA was FS.

But if you want to research the life of young FS/AA just for information purposes as long as you aren't using it to prove she wasn't AA that's fine. I would like to know more about the girl who became AA.


I'm not sure what you mean,  Annie when you tell me:   

>>But if you want to research the life of young FS/AA just for information purposes as long as you aren't using it to prove she wasn't AA that's fine.<<

As far as I know,  FA  wants this  thread to just be an exerise in learning about FS/AA  and  it is I  who has limited the timeline  which is from the time  FS [this is her REAL name]  was born in 1896 to 9 March 1920, so, that is what this thread  is. 

Like Annie and others,  I, too, would like to know more about FS.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 20, 2007, 09:16:41 PM
AGR Bear,

As I indicated in another thread, I am more than happy for (in fact, I would encourage) anyone to pursue the truth (whatever that may be) by exploring all possibilities.  In some cases, people believe that it is the journey that is important, not the destination.  I'm not sure that this is true but I do believe that you have to find out the facts for yourself.  Otherwise what we are left with is a lot of lemmings who say "yes, I agree with Mr x, the so called expert on these things.  He's done all the research, so it must be true".  That would not be a good outcome in my view.

Having said that, I'm still struggling as a newbie with the intent of this thread.  If FS and AA are one person - as some believe then there would only be one body - AAs.  If they are not the same person, then there would be two bodies (assuming the two women are both dead).  This might be a reason for pursuing a timeline of FS's life, in my view, because it might indicate that she led her own life which ends, as most lives end, in her own grave or crypt or something.  In this case, what you might have is a third person mascarading as AA (who said she was AN).  This is a reason, I would understand - at least in theory.

Again, sorry for rambling.  Just trying to understand.

Sophie

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 20, 2007, 09:25:30 PM
Of course there was only one body. It has been proven that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schankowska via her DNA. There is nothing else to prove. AGR Bear needs to start to do some reading about all of this and stop the nonsense that keeps on being placed by her. It is all utterly ridiculous and pointless.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 20, 2007, 11:54:57 PM
PrincessSophie,

Welcome to the forum.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 21, 2007, 01:15:38 AM
Yes Princess Sophie you are welcome. There is plenty of evidence to prove that Anna Anderson was a fraud and was in fact Franziska Schankowska. All serious historians accept that. 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 21, 2007, 01:34:49 AM
Yes Princess Sophie you are welcome. There is plenty of evidence to prove that Anna Anderson was a fraud and was in fact Franziska Schankowska. All serious historians accept that. 

Please don't presume to know the opinions of "all serious historians". If you think we can agree on anything, you have obviously never been to a history conference. :)

This thread is not about whether or not AA was FS, so please don't bring up this topic here. The topic is a Timeline for Franziska.

AGR Bear is most welcome to continue this topic regardless of what some posters think about AA and FS.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 21, 2007, 02:42:10 AM
PrincessSophie,

Welcome to the forum.

AGRBear
 
Thanks AGR Bear.  Could I ask you about some stuff I just found please?

Grand Duke Ernst Ludwing Anastasia's uncle hired a private investigator to invetigate Anna Anderson. He thought that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schankowska and so he set up a meeting between Anna and Franziska Schankowska's brother Felix. When Felix saw Anna he said that this is my sister but at the end of the day when asked to sign a form that said Anna Anderson's true identity is Franziska Schankowska he said " I will not sign this. This is not my sister".

I'm guessing this is old stuff and has been discredited but wouldn't mind some details if you have them?

Thanks
Sophie
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 21, 2007, 07:55:32 AM
And there have been other quotes where he later said they left her to her 'career' as 'Anastasia.' There were many, many good reasons not to expose AA, and no good ones for claiming her. It was better off for her and her family if she continued to be "Anastasia" so she'd always have somebody to glom off of, and never be able to be officially charged with fraud (which would have gotten her thrown in jail if she had been exposed) In addition to jail, she could have even ended up in a Nazi death camp. By the time the trial started, the Nazis were running Germany. FS had been declared legally insane in 1916, and the Nazis sent the insane to death camps. It would have been literally killing her to expose her by then, who'd do that? This is one thing that really hurt the opposition's case, they had to prove she wasn't AN because they couldn't get anyone to say she was FS, even though they knew she was.

Remember the story about her getting so upset when Doris Wingender came to see her, yelling 'that must get out!' She recognized Wingender and was deeply afraid of being exposed. At that point at least AA/FS knew exactly what she was doing.

Some supporters think it's strange no one came forward to expose AA. Why would they, there would be no money in it. There would, however, be a lot of money in letting her go on claiming to be AN, and maybe collecting your hush money once she won her claim? Just a thought.

AA had everything to lose by being exposed and everything to gain by being "Anastasia." So it's not at all strange that the people who knew her wouldn't want to ruin that (or have to live with her knowing they had)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 21, 2007, 08:57:52 AM
And there have been other quotes where he later said they left her to her 'career' as 'Anastasia.' There were many, many good reasons not to expose AA, and no good ones for claiming her. It was better off for her and her family if she continued to be "Anastasia" so she'd always have somebody to glom off of, and never be able to be officially charged with fraud (which would have gotten her thrown in jail if she had been exposed) In addition to jail, she could have even ended up in a Nazi death camp. By the time the trial started, the Nazis were running Germany. FS had been declared legally insane in 1916, and the Nazis sent the insane to death camps. It would have been literally killing her to expose her by then, who'd do that? This is one thing that really hurt the opposition's case, they had to prove she wasn't AN because they couldn't get anyone to say she was FS, even though they knew she was.

Remember the story about her getting so upset when Doris Wingender came to see her, yelling 'that must get out!' She recognized Wingender and was deeply afraid of being exposed. At that point at least AA/FS knew exactly what she was doing.

Thanks, Annie.  I really appreciate the detail of your response and your patience!!!

I certainly can understand AA's motives for mascarading as AN - particularly after she had committed to doing so.  I am less convinced by the need for other people to go along with it - unless, as you say they had confirmed stakes in any fortunes associated with her continuing on this route!

Sophie

Some supporters think it's strange no one came forward to expose AA. Why would they, there would be no money in it. There would, however, be a lot of money in letting her go on claiming to be AN, and maybe collecting your hush money once she won her claim? Just a thought.

AA had everything to lose by being exposed and everything to gain by being "Anastasia." So it's not at all strange that the people who knew her wouldn't want to ruin that (or have to live with her knowing they had)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 21, 2007, 09:03:51 AM
Yes Anna Anderson had many strokes of good luck in her life. The Nazis certainly would have made short of her in an asylum. I can remember reading that a letter was written to Hitler to try to get him involved in the case and it was never replied to. No doubt he found her quite bizarre.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 21, 2007, 09:35:15 AM
Yes Anna Anderson had many strokes of good luck in her life. The Nazis certainly would have made short of her in an asylum. I can remember reading that a letter was written to Hitler to try to get him involved in the case and it was never replied to. No doubt he found her quite bizarre.

Yes, that is true, it's in Massie's book. AA lawyer Edward Fallows wrote to Hitler in 1935, kissing up to him, calling him 'honorable and esteemed sir' and making anti-semitic remarks about the Bolsheviks in an attempt to enlist his help getting AA's claim recognized, but Hitler never answered.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 21, 2007, 12:12:54 PM
Well Massie is a respected author and does his research very well.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 21, 2007, 04:24:27 PM
Yes, but we are still off topic. The topic is a Timeline for Franziska Schanzkowska.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 21, 2007, 10:42:47 PM
This thread is limited to FS's life between the years of 1896 to 9 March 1920.   1935 is 15 years after 1920 .  Please,  take this over to AA's Timeline which starts  17  Feb. 1920.

Thank you.

AGRBear

Yes Anna Anderson had many strokes of good luck in her life. The Nazis certainly would have made short of her in an asylum. I can remember reading that a letter was written to Hitler to try to get him involved in the case and it was never replied to. No doubt he found her quite bizarre.

Yes, that is true, it's in Massie's book. AA lawyer Edward Fallows wrote to Hitler in 1935, kissing up to him, calling him 'honorable and esteemed sir' and making anti-semitic remarks about the Bolsheviks in an attempt to enlist his help getting AA's claim recognized, but Hitler never answered.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 21, 2007, 10:47:41 PM
The DNA testing was done in the 1990s.  L_O_N_G  after  9 March 1920.

Please,  take this over to the DNA  or AA's thread which starts  17 Feb. 1920.

Thanks.

AGRBear

Of course there was only one body. It has been proven that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schankowska via her DNA. There is nothing else to prove. AGR Bear needs to start to do some reading about all of this and stop the nonsense that keeps on being placed by her. It is all utterly ridiculous and pointless.

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 21, 2007, 11:03:33 PM
We know that FS went to school in her village.

Does anyone have any knoweldge about these village schools and what was taught in this area which was under the German Empire?

AGRBear


 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 21, 2007, 11:15:11 PM
Anna Anderson is generally believed to be Franziska Schankowska according to DNA testing. It would seem natural to include details about the same person in this thread. 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 21, 2007, 11:16:27 PM
Education within the German Empire would appear to belong in a different thread.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 21, 2007, 11:29:15 PM
Education within the German Empire would appear to belong in a different thread.

[Bear takes a deep sigh].

 The area in which FS went to school was at that time in the German Empire which was ruled by Kaiser Wilhlem II who was the cousin of Tsar/Emp. Nicholas II of Russia, therefore, of interests to those who'd like to learn about FS's early years before 9 March 1920.

Hang around, dimitri,   you might learn something in spite of your dislike for this thread. :)

AGRBear



 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 21, 2007, 11:45:54 PM
AGR Bear,

This one is directed at you! 

I stumbled upon these views on another AN site and wondered what your initial reactions were.

"Yeah, I know about the DNA results. See, the thing is, though, that there is no proof first of all that the hair found in the book really was her hair. And the samples passed through multiple hands with multiple opportunities for contamination or–dare I say it? outright substitution. I think that had the test results not made a match with Franziska Schankowska, I might have been a little less positive that there was a conspiracy. However, there is absolutely no question that there is any possible way Ms. Anderson could have been Franziska Schankowska, beginning with the fact that Ms. Anderson turned up in a canal in Berlin BEFORE Ms. Schankowska ever went missing."

Thanking you in advance.
Sophie
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 21, 2007, 11:51:11 PM
AGR you continue to amuse me greatly. Happy fantasising and dreaming.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 22, 2007, 12:43:05 AM
Education within the German Empire would appear to belong in a different thread.

(clearing my throat) - No need for you to moderate this thread, Dmitri. The job is taken, and I've allowed the subject.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on August 22, 2007, 09:04:17 AM
As I've posted earlier,  the DNA tests were many many moons after the date of 9 March 1920.  Please,  ask this over on one of the AA threads which deal with these topic.  Let me know where and I'll be glad to respond.

AGRBear

AGR Bear,

This one is directed at you! 

I stumbled upon these views on another AN site and wondered what your initial reactions were.

"Yeah, I know about the DNA results. See, the thing is, though, that there is no proof first of all that the hair found in the book really was her hair. And the samples passed through multiple hands with multiple opportunities for contamination or–dare I say it? outright substitution. I think that had the test results not made a match with Franziska Schankowska, I might have been a little less positive that there was a conspiracy. However, there is absolutely no question that there is any possible way Ms. Anderson could have been Franziska Schankowska, beginning with the fact that Ms. Anderson turned up in a canal in Berlin BEFORE Ms. Schankowska ever went missing."

Thanking you in advance.
Sophie
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 22, 2007, 09:04:40 AM
Perhaps a new thread is really needed. It really is very kind of you to include such a topic, but really it is very much out on a limb Lisa. By the way noone doubts your role as Modertor. I just wonder where we stop discussing education in the German Empire? It is a vast topic surely? After all the region referred to is only one section. Do we next start discussing regional differences in Bavaria, Saxony, Hessen and so on? I wonder how much the entire Kaiserreich education system has to one single person in one particular area of a former vast empire. Perhaps it should be a touch more specific don't you think? I well remember my cousin standing me on the banks of the River Oder in Frankfurt an der Oder and stating that Germany used to continue for a further 200 kilometres!! Back to  AA/FS - you have already stated so well your opinion on the matter surely? I wonder why some can't see that AA and FS are one and the same person as it has clearly been proven using DNA. Why would one continue to question it in spite of verifiable proof to the contrary? We both seem to be in agreement on the matter. It is always really pleasant to have an exchange of views with you. It is refreshing and always a pleasure.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 22, 2007, 12:06:36 PM
AGR Bear,

This one is directed at you! 

I stumbled upon these views on another AN site and wondered what your initial reactions were.

"Yeah, I know about the DNA results. See, the thing is, though, that there is no proof first of all that the hair found in the book really was her hair. And the samples passed through multiple hands with multiple opportunities for contamination or–dare I say it? outright substitution. I think that had the test results not made a match with Franziska Schankowska, I might have been a little less positive that there was a conspiracy. However, there is absolutely no question that there is any possible way Ms. Anderson could have been Franziska Schankowska, beginning with the fact that Ms. Anderson turned up in a canal in Berlin BEFORE Ms. Schankowska ever went missing."

And BTW we have a special intestine switch thread right here on this page for your reading posting pleasure!

Thanking you in advance.
Sophie

"Stumbled" eh? Well anyway :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X it's just the same old list of nonsense, intestines switched, hair not hers,  ::) All the DNA tests, 4 different ones, all gave the same results, sorry. And there is NO evidence FS was still around the same time AA was in the looney bin, she just wasn't reported missing right away.

and btw we have a special intestine switch thread right here on this forum for your reading and posting pleasure!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 22, 2007, 12:59:07 PM
Dmitri, you are being difficult and I do not appreciate it. If you cannot discuss a Timeline for Franziska Schanzkowska, start another thread, or post in a different topic area. Enough.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 22, 2007, 01:01:26 PM
AGR Bear,

This one is directed at you! 

I stumbled upon these views on another AN site and wondered what your initial reactions were.

"Yeah, I know about the DNA results. See, the thing is, though, that there is no proof first of all that the hair found in the book really was her hair. And the samples passed through multiple hands with multiple opportunities for contamination or–dare I say it? outright substitution. I think that had the test results not made a match with Franziska Schankowska, I might have been a little less positive that there was a conspiracy. However, there is absolutely no question that there is any possible way Ms. Anderson could have been Franziska Schankowska, beginning with the fact that Ms. Anderson turned up in a canal in Berlin BEFORE Ms. Schankowska ever went missing."

And BTW we have a special intestine switch thread right here on this page for your reading posting pleasure!

Thanking you in advance.
Sophie

"Stumbled" eh? Well anyway :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X it's just the same old list of nonsense, intestines switched, hair not hers,  ::) All the DNA tests, 4 different ones, all gave the same results, sorry. And there is NO evidence FS was still around the same time AA was in the looney bin, she just wasn't reported missing right away.

and btw we have a special intestine switch thread right here on this forum for your reading and posting pleasure!

You are correct about the whole intestine issue being here in this topic area.

This is a final warning, continuing off topic discussions will result in this thread being locked. This should please all who say they don't want to discuss this but continue to post OT here anyway.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: loulia on August 30, 2007, 03:33:48 PM
Now there are no doubts possible any more. AA lied. I don't why she did it and how she could now so much about the IF, I can't understand how she managed to conviced so many people in the world of her story, probably because the truth is too awfull and we need imagination, it's easier than accept their death...
I can't understand how she could imagine and probably believe in a so awful story: have been saved by her sister's dead body, then terribly ill, then raped, then married and soon widow, then her son's death... Why she told things so tragical??
And I can't keep thinking how sad was her whole life, spending to fight for a wrong thing, that she obviously knew was false... It's a so sad and no sense life...
I don't know how she would have reacted if she was still alive to heard that the bodys were found...
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 30, 2007, 05:20:44 PM
It is extremely sad that she would take on such a tragic identity to escape a life she obviously found unlivable.  She also identified so closely with the invented story she may have been delusional.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 30, 2007, 05:58:55 PM
It is sad whatever led FS to want to kill herself. Her story must have been very sad on its own but we will likely never know it. The story invented by AA and Baron Von Kliest was not really that believable once you look at the details of it. It's not sad because it never happened. What's sad is that the real Anastasia lived only 17 years, died a horrible violent death and had her body desecrated, her remains lay in the mud for decades before being discovered,all the while an insane woman paraded around the world using her name and identity to gain notoriety for herself. It must have been very easy for FS to give up her own miserable identity and take AN's, but it's sad for AN that too often she is remembered not for herself but as the eccentric old woman in Charlottesville who was actually FS. That is another part of her tragedy.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 31, 2007, 03:39:21 AM
Yes it is realy sad that AA wanted to kill herself in the river but the police saved her. But what is realy sad is that she pretending to be someone else she realy was not! She did make Anastasia famous but it was not honest I know that if she would not have existed people would not know Anastasia like they do now. But still I think the truth should still be the right road to take as far as I am concerned and Anna Anderson just did not do that.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on August 31, 2007, 05:02:43 AM
I don't think AA made Anastasia famous. I think AA did what she did to make herself famous impersonating as a dead Russian Grand Duchess. Anastasia was famous merely for being a Russian Grand Duchess. She never needed AA to bring her to the attention of the public.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 31, 2007, 05:13:39 AM
It is extremely sad that she would take on such a tragic identity to escape a life she obviously found unlivable.  She also identified so closely with the invented story she may have been delusional.

I agree.  A lie is only a lie if you believe it is.  Or something like that!  There must have been a mental illness behind it though.  I mean we all fantasise at some time in our lives that it would be fun to be someone else for a while.  For example, I wanted to be Marcia on the Brady Bunch when I was a kid.  Lots of girls did.  But we didn't follow it up by impersonating that person.  That would be deranged and stupid.  But people with a mental illness may not see this.  That does not make it right by any means.  But one can at least understand why it happened.

Sophie
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 31, 2007, 05:39:24 AM
In addition to her mental problems don't you think money was a big reason she did it?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on August 31, 2007, 06:24:17 AM
In addition to her mental problems don't you think money was a big reason she did it?

If it was Annie, it puts a completely different complexion on the fraud and the person committing it.  Without it, you have rather a sad individual who desperately wanted to escape her life and through a series of people thinking she looked a little like someone else, she adopted another.  If you add money to the equation, you have a different individual altogether.  Cold and calculating.  That is a scary person capable of almost any thing.  Was she bright enough, I wonder?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Mari on August 31, 2007, 08:22:29 AM
Maybe She wanted desperately to be someone else and certainly her life had to be horrible if She tried to kill herself. She certainly had a lot of problems and then to be a mysterious figure fished out of a canal and someone says "You look like a Daughter of the Czar." It wouldn't be hard to convince yourself....many famous Actresses convince themselves they are the Character they play for that time. Wasn't it Laurence Olivier who said the years Vivian Lee played Scarlet O'Hara he lived with Scarlett O'Hara. She never got out of character.

But then what did AA have to go back to... poverty, hunger, work in a factory....and aside from the Money this way She had nice places to stay, Clothes, good food and a lifestyle She could never have had. I mean even if She received none of the Romanov money she still had a good lifestyle.
Quote
Posted by: dmitri
Insert Quote
I don't think AA made Anastasia famous. I think AA did what she did to make herself famous impersonating as a dead Russian Grand Duchess. Anastasia was famous merely for being a Russian Grand Duchess. She never needed AA to bring her to the attention of the public.
Quote


I do agree with this also....
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 31, 2007, 10:01:12 AM
Was she bright enough, I wonder?

Of course not. That's why her supoorters helped her by making up the cart story (Von Kliest) helping with her memories (many no doubt, I have my suspicions) making excuses for her being sick so she forgot languages and events (Rathlef  and T. Botkin) starting a court case (G. Botkin and Fallows) writing stuff about her to spark interest (Botkins and Rathlef) the list goes on. And no I don't believe they were all completely innocent.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on August 31, 2007, 10:07:54 AM
Maybe She wanted desperately to be someone else and certainly her life had to be horrible if She tried to kill herself. She certainly had a lot of problems and then to be a mysterious figure fished out of a canal and someone says "You look like a Daughter of the Czar." It wouldn't be hard to convince yourself....many famous Actresses convince themselves they are the Character they play for that time. Wasn't it Laurence Olivier who said the years Vivian Lee played Scarlet O'Hara he lived with Scarlett O'Hara. She never got out of character.

Of course. Lots of actors have done that, and being from a poor background never stopped anyone from being a good actor, look at Hollywood. Some lose their mind in the end and believe themselves to be the character, like Johnny Weissmuller did when he ran around making Tarzan calls in his old age. (ever see the Three Doors Down Video "If I go crazy now will you still call me Superman" about the old man who played a superhero in the 50's and went around in his costume still thinking he was the character? That kind of reminds me of her too)

Quote

But then what did AA have to go back to... poverty, hunger, work in a factory....and aside from the Money this way She had nice places to stay, Clothes, good food and a lifestyle She could never have had. I mean even if She received none of the Romanov money she still had a good lifestyle.

That's for sure, as well as jail time and lawsuits for filing a false claim and fraud, and in the Nazi days in Germany, possibly a death camp for being declared insane as FS. There was NO good reason to go back to being FS. This is why I believe her family denied her, for her own good, as well as theirs. They were afraid of having to deal with her problems, and her. As "Anastasia" she would always find some sucker to take care of her, and in the end she married someone just as nutty as herself.


Quote

I do agree with this also....

Me too.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 31, 2007, 05:36:43 PM
I don't think AA made Anastasia famous. I think AA did what she did to make herself famous impersonating as a dead Russian Grand Duchess. Anastasia was famous merely for being a Russian Grand Duchess. She never needed AA to bring her to the attention of the public.
That is right Dmitri that is the bottom line right there'She never needed AA to bring her to the attention of the public'. Who needed her~!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on August 31, 2007, 06:27:54 PM
I am not defending AA/FS for what she did.  Annie and I have talked about the "chicken or the egg" theory in her becoming Anastasia.

However, we can't forget that no matter how much was given to her, she always walked away (except for Manahan).  She took the money and support but when it dried up as in the Bavarian Forest years, she just lived without it.

She was indeed an enigma.  I would love to know more about FS before she jumped into that Berlin Canal. I'm sure that her life was not all that unusual for someone of her background, but I will always wonder what it was that made her jump in the first place.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 01, 2007, 12:59:44 AM
Was she bright enough, I wonder?

If she could do all that reading to make her story more believable, remember the details, and learn several languages, even imperfectly, to help carry it off, she was bright, all right!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 01, 2007, 02:36:45 AM
She was indeed an enigma.  I would love to know more about FS before she jumped into that Berlin Canal. I'm sure that her life was not all that unusual for someone of her background, but I will always wonder what it was that made her jump in the first place.

Any living people who would know the truth?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on September 01, 2007, 07:21:41 AM
You know, it was all so long ago.

Almost 90 years since she made the jump.

I guess, from reading some of the other threads, there is some information about her life, but not why she jumped. She does have living family as that is where the DNA to confirm her identity as FS came from, but as to anyone who would have been alive at the time, its doubtful.  The length of time is just too great and she was estranged from her family at that time, except for sending her bother a birthday card, I just don't think they even knew where she was or what she was doing just before she decided to jump. Anything we know today would have been oral tradition in her family and as such not very reliable information.

That is why Annie and I have our "chicken or egg" theory about the whole thing.  Had the plan already been formulated before she jumped or was the plan formulated by a combination of unrelated events after she jumped?  Did she intend to die or was jumping her "cry for help"?  Was Clara Peuthert a "plant" in the asylum?

Was anyone in the whole story sophisticated enough to plan and execute this kind of hoax and expect to get away with it?  For those who participated (probably with the exception of Tatiana Botkin and her husband) the end result was always the idea that there was a "Romanov fortune" just waiting to be had.

Money does strange things to people.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on September 01, 2007, 10:31:33 PM
Quote
That is why Annie and I have our "chicken or egg" theory about the whole thing.  Had the plan already been formulated before she jumped or was the plan formulated by a combination of unrelated events after she jumped?  Did she intend to die or was jumping her "cry for help"?  Was Clara Peuthert a "plant" in the asylum?

I'm not sure which would be called the chicken or the egg! I never personally believed that AA had any idea to pretend to be a grand duchess until she was shown the picture by Clara. I don't even believe the story of the nurse a year earlier, I think that was made up or the date changed to predate her 'Tatiana' incident. Just wanted to clear that up since bear once told people I said she was pretending before she jumped and I really don't think so. But no matter what she was FS for sure.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on September 02, 2007, 02:00:31 AM
Annie,

I am sorry if I misquoted you :-(    I thought that we had discussed this one before.  Maybe it was with someone else!

I personally don't believe that she had any idea to impersonate a grand duchess either before she jumped into the canal, not on her own at least.

But I have always wondered at the unhappy confluence of events that conspired to have her begin to claim to be any grand duchess.  It seems as though fate took a hand in her life and she let it lead her forward.  Either that or she was so mentally ill by the time she jumped (and she must have been at a true "low ebb" in her life to try to commit suicide) that she had already detached from reality and Clara Peuthert and anyone else who jumped on the grand duchess band wagon gave her tortured mind a new and more comfortable direction to go in.

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 02, 2007, 02:24:46 AM
Yeah, here http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,3893.0.html are some other cases.  Seems some of these people wanted to be Romanovs no matter how much trouble it brought them!  And Anna Anderson at least profited as much as she suffered.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on September 02, 2007, 02:31:54 PM
Annie,

I am sorry if I misquoted you :-(    I thought that we had discussed this one before.  Maybe it was with someone else!

I personally don't believe that she had any idea to impersonate a grand duchess either before she jumped into the canal, not on her own at least.

It was me, you did ask me, but I never said I believed she had the idea before the canal. I really don't think she had the idea until Clara gave it to her, but then she took advantage of it. I also don't think there was anyone out there plotting to make a fake Anastasia  to sell to the family (like the Dmitri in the cartoon movie,) I also think they all saw an opportunity to take advantage of a situation. It worked out for all of them, right time right place, though it was all wrong and fraudulent.


Quote
But I have always wondered at the unhappy confluence of events that conspired to have her begin to claim to be any grand duchess.  It seems as though fate took a hand in her life and she let it lead her forward.  Either that or she was so mentally ill by the time she jumped (and she must have been at a true "low ebb" in her life to try to commit suicide) that she had already detached from reality and Clara Peuthert and anyone else who jumped on the grand duchess band wagon gave her tortured mind a new and more comfortable direction to go in.



She was mentally ill, she was declared legally insane in 1916. It is sad whatever led her to attempt suicide and it's sad we'll never know the story because FS deleted her previous exisitence, like metaphorical suicide, when she became AA.

As far as 'chicken and egg' whichever one was first, I believe it went like this- Clara gave  her the idea then others got the idea to exploit her and her claim, I don't think there were any plans by anyone it just turned out that way, is that a chicken or an egg?

And if anyone really wants to see what I think read my AA website!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 02, 2007, 05:46:06 PM
Was she bright enough, I wonder?

Of course not. That's why her supoorters helped her by making up the cart story (Von Kliest) helping with her memories (many no doubt, I have my suspicions) making excuses for her being sick so she forgot languages and events (Rathlef  and T. Botkin) starting a court case (G. Botkin and Fallows) writing stuff about her to spark interest (Botkins and Rathlef) the list goes on. And no I don't believe they were all completely innocent.
See those are excuses they make up and lie about it realy is so sad it shows how much they realy like to make lies come alive it is realy pathetice the their is no need to have sympathy for Anna Anderson it is her lies should not be supported at all.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 05, 2007, 02:46:16 AM
False as Anna Anderson's story was, it did provoke a genuine interest in many people for the real story.  Some have even been inspired by the cartoon version to look further into history!  As devastating as the trial was to people who knew the Imperial Family, it did provoke REAL recollections from people who knew them that history might not otherwise have.  So Anna Anderson deserves recognition, if not approval.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 05, 2007, 03:10:27 AM
Yes recognition as an imposter and then relegation to the garbage bin of history.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on September 06, 2007, 02:11:56 PM
I don't think AA deserves any 'approval' for her theft of AN's identity until her image and life is too often taken for that of the real AN. She deserves no 'approval' for causing a court fight for years which tormented the grieving relations of the real AN. If the only way AN could be 'famous' is to have some crazy woman impersonate her and lie about her, I bet she'd just as soon have stayed obscure. I know I would.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 05:30:07 PM
Yes AA did nothing to promote the real Grand Duchess Anastasia. There was plenty of information on her without the rubbish Anderson invented. Grand Duchess Anastasia would have always been known, like the rest of her family, due to her tragic and brutal demise.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 07, 2007, 04:39:00 PM
No she did not thats why I say thumbs down for Anna Anderson! She did not do anything positive for Anastasia. All she did was made Anastasia reputation bad, by lying and pretendng. It is true the woman is sick and mentally ill she had serious problems.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on September 07, 2007, 06:30:05 PM
I guess that is why I do have some compassion for AA/FS.  She was mentally ill and that is not a crime.

I think that as the years went by, she truly came to believe that she was ANR. 

As for her family recognizing her and then recanting, that is, as Yule Brenner said in The King and I, "A puzzlement".

And I know a lot of theories have been put on this thread and into books about why her family would not want to recognize her and have her back in their lives, but just think about your own family and siblings and aunts and nieces. Could you just walk away from one of your own?

We know the "how" of her story, but I suppose we will never know the "why".  Not entirely.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on September 07, 2007, 07:28:04 PM



As for her family recognizing her and then recanting, that is, as Yule Brenner said in The King and I, "A puzzlement".

And I know a lot of theories have been put on this thread and into books about why her family would not want to recognize her and have her back in their lives, but just think about your own family and siblings and aunts and nieces. Could you just walk away from one of your own?


I usually go into a long post on this, but now I've written it all out on my site. I really think they denied her for her own good! She could have gotten into a lot of trouble for filing a fraudulent claim, could have gone to jail, been sued for expenses, and in Nazi Germany, even gone to a death camp for being insane if they knew she was FS. The family had NO good reason to claim her and every good reason to deny her, for her own good as well as theirs. They didn't want to have to worry about possibly being held responsible for her actions, and they didn't want to have to deal with a miserable, broke, mentally ill sister whose life they had ruined by exposing her. It's my theory that she begged them not to expose her, and they left her to, as they later said, her 'career' as "Anastasia" where she'd always have someone to take care of  her. (again much more on my my site in the "Schanzkowska family' chapter. As for 'could you walk away from your own?' They probably felt they were doing her a favor and she was better off. And yes, some people can. I have seen it first hand personally in real life. If someone is going to cause their relative to have to be put out to a minute's inconvenience, or even worse cost them one cent of their precious money, you're outta there!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 08, 2007, 02:56:54 AM
Yes people lie and cheat every day, even their own family. What pathetic excuses for human beings such creatures are.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Foxglove on September 08, 2007, 03:45:24 AM
I usually go into a long post on this, but now I've written it all out on my site. I really think they denied her for her own good! She could have gotten into a lot of trouble for filing a fraudulent claim, could have gone to jail, been sued for expenses, and in Nazi Germany, even gone to a death camp for being insane if they knew she was FS. The family had NO good reason to claim her and every good reason to deny her, for her own good as well as theirs. They didn't want to have to worry about possibly being held responsible for her actions, and they didn't want to have to deal with a miserable, broke, mentally ill sister whose life they had ruined by exposing her. It's my theory that she begged them not to expose her, and they left her to, as they later said, her 'career' as "Anastasia" where she'd always have someone to take care of  her. (again much more on my my site in the "Schanzkowska family' chapter. As for 'could you walk away from your own?' They probably felt they were doing her a favor and she was better off. And yes, some people can. I have seen it first hand personally in real life. If someone is going to cause their relative to have to be put out to a minute's inconvenience, or even worse cost them one cent of their precious money, you're outta there!

This makes the most sense logically. I imagine that looking after a mentally ill sibling was not a preferable choice for any of the Schanzkowskis, especially since more likely than not, if they did bring Franziska home, they would have had to put her back to an asylum again.

Also, about the responsibility of expenses… the Schanzkowski family was repeatedly assured that they would not be responsible for Franziska's costs that she had racked up during her time as “Anastasia”, but then how exactly was that going to work? If Joe Blow demanded back monetary payment for food, lodging, jewellery, and what not presented in good faith to what he assumed was GD Anastasia, who was going to pay him back? Who would prevent him from filing a lawsuit against Anna or the Schanzkowski family? In later years, when Anna travelled abroad to the United States, she was a guest at lavish parties, and given presents. What would happen if one of those people decided to sue her, or her minders? How would a court case like that be settled? I am genuinely curious to know now, as my Criminology classes didn't cover this aspect. ;)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on September 08, 2007, 09:01:03 AM
Annie:

I have been slowly reading your site and I did read that part.  I recommend your site to anyone who wants to get all of the information in one place.

Just think how complicated any law suits would be just because mostly (until much later in her life) AA never herself claimed to be ANR.  She let other people do it for her.

She let others present her as ANR and simply kept quiet until her mental illness came to the fore and she had a psychotic break and began to abuse those who had taken her in.

And also, filing law suits in the early to middle part of the 20th century was not the norm as it is today.  Today, all someone has to do is to looked cross eyed at another and its off to court they go.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 09, 2007, 10:40:28 AM
Thats exactly why you should not feel and sorrow for Anna Anderson their is nothing to feel sorry for her about becuase she was a pathetic fraud and her ways are sick. The woman was mentally ill and she had problems it was her fault.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on September 09, 2007, 11:13:38 AM
Ah, Elizabeth~Princess, I understand your anger.

But no one is responsible for being mentally ill.  It is like any other illness.  I would not be responsible for having cancer(unless I smoked) and I would not be responsible for having the flu or a sinus infection or any other illness that hasn't already been eliminated by vaccine.

AA/FS needed a doctor's care, but in the early part of this century, mental illness was treated as a non illness.  It was not given the attention that is is given today.  Now we acknowledge that people very often have chemical imbalances that make them do and say things that others would not do or say.

Those who function on a "normal" level are called "neurotypicals" while those who have Autism or bi polar disorder or schizophrenia are now recognized as needing medical help and professional therapy.  And thankfully there are now medications that can help them and there are no longer any of the horrible "insane asylums" as there was 100 years ago.

AA/FS is one of the greatest enigmas of our time.  I don't think that there is a simple answer to her position in history.  Yes, she was a impostor, but that was not a simple answer until after she was dead and DNA sampling and testing had been developed.

I have said before that I could never reconcile her slovenly behavior and her rudeness to the image of a grand duchess, therefore I never believed that she was ANR.

But I still feel for the young woman who felt that her life was so not worth living that she threw herself into a canal.  Had no one rescued her, then she would have not even been a footnote in history.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 09, 2007, 11:24:45 AM
yes she was in the right place to be rescued ... I do think her behaviour was quite extraordinary .. certainly she displayed abnormal character traits ... she was a frightful play actress .. perhaps that was just a sign of her mental instability - I think she will only remain as a very brief footnote in history. The real Grand Duchess Anastasia will be remembered as a child of the last Tsar and Tsarina of Russia.   
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 09, 2007, 06:55:31 PM
I understand what you mean Alixz. You are right no one is responsible for being ill I mean it was sad scenario she was in and everything I know that she should not be blamed for her illness and good thing someone rescue her from killing herself. But however she is not innocent but just sick but the part about her fraud ways is someone for herself to blame as becuase the lying and pretending was her fault. I understand that she was sick and everything but it just does not make sense to lie and pretend unless her illness gone too far.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 09, 2007, 11:09:56 PM
I understand what you mean Alixz. You are right no one is responsible for being ill I mean it was sad scenario she was in and everything I know that she should not be blamed for her illness and good thing someone rescue her from killing herself. But however she is not innocent but just sick but the part about her fraud ways is someone for herself to blame as becuase the lying and pretending was her fault. I understand that she was sick and everything but it just does not make sense to lie and pretend unless her illness gone too far.

Elizabeth~Princess, you are perfectly sweet but I'm not sure I agree.  Her suicide attempt was sad as was her mental illness but whoever prevented it inadvertently started an avalanche of deceit that may have been - at least in part - avoided in the event of her demise at that time. 

Sophie
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 10, 2007, 05:35:07 PM
Okay Sophie Yes I understand that it was sad and everything realy why would her illness give her a reason to be a fraud. I understand that her suicide attempt was a issue that was from her mental illness. But I think that her mental illness caused her to try to attempt suicide but as for being a fraud it was her own fault.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 10, 2007, 06:42:45 PM
A lot of mentally ill people have delusions of grandeur and fancy themselves someone famous, most often some kind of [missing] royalty, etc. Thre were many many dauphins of France for example, and other "royal survivors" throughout the ages. This is fairly common, so AA and her situation is not unique in any sense of the word, she just happened to have very dogged followers, who fought for her, perhaps more than other claimants.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on September 10, 2007, 06:47:08 PM
Yes, I don't think any other claimant or pretender has had the devoted cult following AA has.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 10, 2007, 07:01:48 PM
So if you really think about it, FS didn't have such a sad life after all, at least compared to what she could have ended up as. I mean, she was wined and dined often, and supported most of her life after she "became" Anna Anderson/Anastasia. She didn't have to work for a living for the rest of her life, because some people did buy into her claim. She even got to marry a rich American professor from North Carolina who was more than a decade younger than her. Albeit, he wasn't playing with a full deck, but still, she got to live in a big house in an nice area, she got her American citizenship, she got to do whatever she wanted, including have hundreds of cats. If it wasn't for that, what would she have had? At best, she would have been stuck at mental hospitals in Germany for the rest of her life (and back then, mental hospitals were not a walk in the park). Most likely she would have been euthanized by the Nazis during the 1930's due to her mental illness. So think about that for a minute... Her life could have been a lot sadder (not to mention a lot shorter) than it was as Anna Anderson.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 10, 2007, 11:57:37 PM
You raise very valid points Helen A. I think many others had far sadder lives. They no doubt deserve far more attention than AA.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 12, 2007, 04:59:23 PM
Jack Manahan was many things, but he was always a Virginian, never from North Carolina.

We will probably never know if AA was a deliberate fraud, mentally ill, or anything else. As someone who deals routinely with the mentally ill, I confess I bristle when I see any of you label her a fraud - because it's purely speculation on your part - and many here pronounce this as though it were a fact. My opinion, and we are all entitled to one, is that she was probably mentally ill. There is a mental illness that is clinically observable in which the patient imagines she/he comes from a royal or aristocratic background - and is not.

A little compassion would go a long way.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 12, 2007, 06:38:01 PM
Jack Manahan was many things, but he was always a Virginian, never from North Carolina.

Oops, sorry, Virginia... You know how us Yankees are, we don't know the difference! ;-)

Lisa, Anna Anderson was obviously mentally ill AND she was obviously a fraud - whether she was aware of it or not - she was a fraud, we just don't whose fraud: her own or someone else's...

There is a mental illness that is clinically observable in which the patient imagines she/he comes from a royal or aristocratic background - and is not.

Yes, I just said that:

A lot of mentally ill people have delusions of grandeur and fancy themselves someone famous, most often some kind of [missing] royalty, etc. Thre were many many dauphins of France for example, and other "royal survivors" throughout the ages. This is fairly common, so AA and her situation is not unique in any sense of the word...
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Belochka on September 12, 2007, 08:41:50 PM
... We will probably never know if AA was a deliberate fraud, mentally ill, or anything else. ...  I confess I bristle when I see any of you label her a fraud - because it's purely speculation on your part - and many here pronounce this as though it were a fact. My opinion, and we are all entitled to one, is that she was probably mentally ill.

A little compassion would go a long way.

Sure Lisa, we can indeed demonstrate our compassion for those who are mentally challenged in some way, but it is rather more difficult to feel sympathetic towards a woman who blossomed after she knowingly colluded in the perversion of the truth. She failed to say: NO, I have had enough, I want to be me. The lady cowered from those she selectively prefered not to meet. Why such a performance if she was "ill"? Yes we all agree that she became unwell in her later years, but it is her past behavior which remains strongly in our minds.

She attempted to steal the identity of one so noble and grand in order to mislead. She gained favorably (not monetary) from her deceptive behavior and with all these identified considerations, in my estimation her less than imperious performance was fraudulent.

Margarita
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 13, 2007, 09:28:40 AM
Yes I have to agree Margarita. I find little, if anything, admirable about her fraudulent behaviour. It is something others would be ashamed of.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Lemur on September 13, 2007, 09:35:51 AM
She attempted to steal the identity of one so noble and grand in order to mislead. She gained favorably (not monetary) from her deceptive behavior and with all these identified considerations, in my estimation her less than imperious performance was fraudulent.

Margarita[/color]

I can feel sorry for FS wanting to commit suicide, and I can feel sorry for elderly, obviously unstable AA, but I do think the AA of the trial period was a deliberate fraud who deserves nothing but scorn for what she made others endure for her own attempts at finanacial gain.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 13, 2007, 10:05:34 AM
Yes she certainly didn't appear to care too much about real relatives of the last Tsar and Tsarina.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 13, 2007, 11:59:19 AM
Yes she certainly didn't appear to care too much about real relatives of the last Tsar and Tsarina.
Of course she did not even know them that well.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 13, 2007, 12:36:39 PM
yes she did not know them at all apart from when they visited and then they did not find the slightest resemblance between her and their real niece who sadly had died in Ekaterinburg
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 13, 2007, 02:28:06 PM
yes she did not know them at all apart from when they visited and then they did not find the slightest resemblance between her and their real niece who sadly had died in Ekaterinburg
In fact AA never meet any of the imperial family only when Olga and Irene and other family met AA sometime in the 1920's and after that. The point is she never knew the family well and did not have any features or looks related to Anastasia what so ever. Aunt Olga and Xenia knew their neice so well they knew the imposter was not ANASTASIA.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 14, 2007, 12:56:27 AM
Jack Manahan was many things, but he was always a Virginian, never from North Carolina.

We will probably never know if AA was a deliberate fraud, mentally ill, or anything else. As someone who deals routinely with the mentally ill, I confess I bristle when I see any of you label her a fraud - because it's purely speculation on your part - and many here pronounce this as though it were a fact. My opinion, and we are all entitled to one, is that she was probably mentally ill. There is a mental illness that is clinically observable in which the patient imagines she/he comes from a royal or aristocratic background - and is not.

A little compassion would go a long way.

I confess, Lisa, that I too used to baulk when I saw the word fraud.  But even if she was mentally ill (which in a legal sense suggests diminished capacity), isn't the result the same?  She passed herself off as someone she was not and people were hurt by her actions.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 14, 2007, 01:38:32 AM
Taking the very kindest viewpoint, Anderson simply was not who she claimed to be. Stronger viewpoints label her with less subtle language.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 14, 2007, 05:21:05 AM
The point was she never learned Russian or English she did not know any at all she never even learned it. That also points out why she was not AA. Some say she forgotten the langauhes but that is false she never knew the langauges. Only Polish and bad German.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: PrincessSophie on September 14, 2007, 06:44:36 AM
Taking the very kindest viewpoint, Anderson simply was not who she claimed to be. Stronger viewpoints label her with less subtle language.

However, you cut a cake, it's still a cake!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on September 15, 2007, 02:41:08 AM
The point was she never learned Russian or English she did not know any at all she never even learned it. That also points out why she was not AA. Some say she forgotten the langauhes but that is false she never knew the langauges. Only Polish and bad German.

She did know Russian and English, but not until she had had time to learn them, and then imperfectly, unlike Anastasia who was brought up speaking them.  Please be accurate in your comments.  Conspiracy theorists and historical purists alike love to pounce on inconsistencies.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 15, 2007, 06:23:47 AM
The point was she never learned Russian or English she did not know any at all she never even learned it. That also points out why she was not AA. Some say she forgotten the langauhes but that is false she never knew the langauges. Only Polish and bad German.

She did know Russian and English, but not until she had had time to learn them, and then imperfectly, unlike Anastasia who was brought up speaking them.  Please be accurate in your comments.  Conspiracy theorists and historical purists alike love to pounce on inconsistencies.
No I was refering to during the 1920's when she tryinbg to comment suicude. She did not know any Russian or English then, I know she learned it later in her life.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Temperance on September 15, 2007, 09:52:04 AM
It is sad that something drove Anna Anderson to attempt suicide but that is where my sympathy for her ends. She should never have claimed to be Anastasia because it hurt the family of the real Grand Duchess.

As for Anna Anderson learning English and Russian later in life, does anyone know how well she learned the languages?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Lemur on September 15, 2007, 09:56:06 AM
It doesn't sound like she learned English very well at all, and I am still not convinced she ever learned Russian. All we have are some hearsay comments from supporters. It was never proven in court she could even understand it. During the 1965 trial, the judge tried even singing to her in Russian to try to get some kind of recognition of understanding out of her, nothing.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 15, 2007, 10:09:17 AM
It doesn't sound like she learned English very well at all, and I am still not convinced she ever learned Russian. All we have are some hearsay comments from supporters. It was never proven in court she could even understand it. During the 1965 trial, the judge tried even singing to her in Russian to try to get some kind of recognition of understanding out of her, nothing.
Yes her supporters are trying to say that Anna Anderson knew Russian and English but then she forgot it but that is false.  Coris none of my information is inaccurate I disagree with you I do not think Anna Anderson knew Russian and English. But, therefore since she did not know Russian or English at the time of the 1920's that is one thing that proves she in not Anastasia. Becuase Anastasia knew Russian, English and French. She was only taught a litte German but not fluent from her mother Alix. Yes I agree with you Temporance no one should have sympathy for Anna Anderson especialy when she started to claim that she was Anastasia. Lemur is right it was never proven that she could understand english and russian. Yes I think that AA possibly learned english and russian in her later life I am not certain, but I know that she did not know any at the time of her suicide attempt.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Temperance on September 15, 2007, 10:29:44 AM
So there is no hard evidence that she knew Russian at all? Goodness how did anyone ever buy into that woman's story?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: loulia on September 18, 2007, 02:33:20 PM
Actually her supporters said that her parents murders traumatised her so much and that she heard so many awful things this night that she refused to speak russian any more, because it reminds her of thoses bad memories...
Which is strange when it culd have help people to believe she is AN, which was what she wanted the most. Especcially while it didn't disturb her to speak about the murders or her rape.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 18, 2007, 06:16:45 PM
Actually her supporters said that her parents murders traumatised her so much and that she heard so many awful things this night that she refused to speak russian any more, because it reminds her of thoses bad memories...
Which is strange when it culd have help people to believe she is AN, which was what she wanted the most. Especcially while it didn't disturb her to speak about the murders or her rape.
Yes exactly Loulia that is what they always say you see her supporters say things excues for why she could not speak Russian like becuase she forgot it and becuase she is so frighten of all those awful things and they also say that was what altered her looks and made her look a lttle different. They may say that her lips and nose are the same and other things like that.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Foxglove on September 18, 2007, 07:16:46 PM
The point was she never learned Russian or English she did not know any at all she never even learned it. That also points out why she was not AA. Some say she forgotten the langauhes but that is false she never knew the langauges. Only Polish and bad German.

Not even Polish, or at least not very much, according to Franziska's family. Apparently she knew enough to get by, but otherwise, her family's main language was Kashubian, and later German.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on September 22, 2007, 01:16:39 PM
The point was she never learned Russian or English she did not know any at all she never even learned it. That also points out why she was not A. Some say she forgotten the langauges but that is false she never knew the langauges. Only Polish and bad German.

Not even Polish, or at least not very much, according to Franziska's family. Apparently she knew enough to get by, but otherwise, her family's main language was Kashubian, and later German.
'
Yes thats right, I suppose. I made a slipery mistake there! AA was never A I meant. Anyway she did know all those lanages however but not Russian or English though at the time of the 1920's.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on September 22, 2007, 04:18:59 PM
Yes Schankowska was quite a silly and ignorant woman. She certainly was not Anastasia and it is so very obvious.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: loulia on September 23, 2007, 02:30:16 PM
I don't think she was so silly and ignorant to manage to make believe so many people in her story, even among people who knew AN. She managed to manipulate them and to learn many things about the IF, she played with people, using their sadness about AN's terrible death...
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on October 04, 2007, 07:43:27 PM
Anna Anderson was not silly, but she was ignorant she was just sick. Honestly I do not find Anna Anderson silly, I find her a just plain sick. I think many people believed in her claiments, becuase they either did not know the real Anastasia, or they just felt sorry for the woman. Anyway, I just think AA was just, a sick, insane and crazy woman.Yes, she managed to pass for that but, there was alot of things to point out for her about why isn't she Anastasia. Her and Anastasia have many differences, and yet FS and AA had many similarities becuase she was her! But, little did she know that her relatives know more about the real Anastasia then, AA did
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 11, 2007, 07:58:10 PM
I do wonder what terrible agony and misery led FS to want to end her own life that night in 1920. Whatever it was must have been terrible. What could have happened to her to make her so down?

It was Feb. 17, which according to records is the birthday of her brother Felix. Had she quarreled with him, and wanted to make a 'political statement' by dying on his birthday? Was she estranged from her family?

Was she griefstricken by whatever had happened to her child?

Was she upset over the death of her fiancee' and/or some other heartbreaking relationship?

Did she feel her life was going nowhere, she hated her jobs, her dream of being an actress going nowhere?

Was it her mental illness, or a physical one making her so depressed?

I know we will never know the answer to these questions, but whatever it was, it must have been terrible. Even after being rescued, she seemed unhappy to be alive, and obviously hated her life so much she refused to give her identity. She didn't want to be sent back to being Franziska and the tattered life she had left behind. Even though her body was still alive, she had killed Franziska that night.

So after about 2 years of silence, she found a way out by using the identity of a dead princess to gain the fame she always wanted, and hopes of a fortune. She must have felt, after hitting rock bottom, to have lucked into a grand way out of her situation beyond anything she imagined and the chance at a whole new life!

It is sad how it stole the identity of the real AN and caused so much grief to AN's relatives, but for FS, it was a lucky break of a lifetime. No matter what happened to her as AA, it was better than being FS.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 12, 2007, 01:06:22 AM
I have not scanned the entire thread, and perhaps Penny Wilson may have reported, since I believe she may have viewed some of the same materials I did in Munich, it might be of interest to know that the S family was subjected to extensive investigation in connection with "Eugenics" research into Hereditary Criminality, during the Nazi regime.  Given the propensity of the Nazis to exterminate the "unfit" on Eugenics grounds, the reticence of the family members may seem more comprehensible.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on October 12, 2007, 03:09:13 PM
I knew they had investigated FS's  family and often wondered what became of the paper work created in this investigation.    As part of this investigation someone would have collected the records of the asylums and sanitariums  where the Nazi's would have found records of the  so-called "unfit".

These records might be gathering dust somewhere just waiting to be found.

I realize that the two wars caused destruction but knowing the Germans,  I'm sure they had copies somewhere,  too.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 12, 2007, 03:37:28 PM
I have always thought the possibility of FS, who had been declared legally insane in 1916, being put into a camp by the Nazis was one reason her family continued to deny they knew her.

Bear, even if they did put records somewhere else, that might have been bombed, too. Also things get thrown away. I dont' think it's likely any records that weren't found by either side during the trial would turn up now.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 12, 2007, 04:02:56 PM
To replies 488 & 489:

The results are part of a published text book by the "eugenicist" who was responsible. It is in German.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on October 14, 2007, 11:03:22 AM
To replies 488 & 489:

The results are part of a published text book by the "eugenicist" who was responsible. It is in German.

The results were published,  but  does anyone know what happen to the collection of information gathered for this published work?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: AGRBear on October 14, 2007, 11:06:37 AM
...[in part]...

Bear, even if they did put records somewhere else, that might have been bombed, too. Also things get thrown away. I dont' think it's likely any records that weren't found by either side during the trial would turn up now.

Officals in Germany do not through things away and the reason given:  "You never know when you might need them."   

AGRBear

Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 14, 2007, 12:55:11 PM
If anyone knows where the original reports and studies might be found today, or knows how to find them, it would be Herr M. Phillip Remy.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 14, 2007, 06:54:58 PM
...[in part]...

Bear, even if they did put records somewhere else, that might have been bombed, too. Also things get thrown away. I dont' think it's likely any records that weren't found by either side during the trial would turn up now.

Officals in Germany do not through things away and the reason given:  "You never know when you might need them."   

AGRBear



So you know these guys personally? How do you know, just guessing?

Realistically, things do get thrown away after a few years because there is no room! I once asked for records of mine that were 5 years old, and they had moved them to a shed. They said after the shed got full they dumped it and put in newer stuff. You are attempting to say the Germans are efficient by saying they keep everything, but don't forget the famous saying about Germans having neat houses! That's something I always heard growing up that if somebody was German, her house must be immaculate! If they kept everything they'd have junkpiles everywhere. So your stereotype is actually opposite!

 Please give me a break, no one keeps doctor records after nearly 100 years, even IF they survived the bombing, practices go out of business, buildings get torn down, stuff gets dumped.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 14, 2007, 09:05:31 PM
SO - what's all that stuff in the Russian State Archives? Roach droppings?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 14, 2007, 09:15:51 PM
And the library of congress has a lot too. I'm talking about individual doctors' practices, and old doctor records from 91 years ago. I really do believe what wasn't destroyed in one of the wars would be long tossed out and the practice probably long moved and/or closed, most likely closed when the doctor died or the war blew it up. I really don't believe there are any dr. records on FS to be found today that weren't found by either side during the trial.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 15, 2007, 01:48:39 PM
SO - what's all that stuff in the Russian State Archives? Roach droppings?

Mr Schweitzer, there is no need to get nasty...
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: BobAtchison on October 15, 2007, 03:47:55 PM
Hitler had the Sokolov dossier from the Janin vault in Paris in his personal papers.  The Russians recovered it and Stalin took it into his private papers where it remained in the files of the Russian president in the early 90's when I was shown it and went through it.

Hitler knew Anna Anderson was a fraud.  Stalin did too and Soviet agents nurtured the Anastasia myth in order to create dissension in White Russian circles in the West and discredit the Romanov family.  What support they gave and who their agents were I don't know.

Both Stalin and Hitler were after Romanov jewels.  Stalin's agents got their hands on got tens of millions of Romanov gems and there is evidence Hitler may have gotten his share as well.

Bob
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Belochka on October 15, 2007, 07:54:36 PM
Hitler had the Sokolov dossier from the Janin vault in Paris in his personal papers.  The Russians recovered it and Stalin took it into his private papers where it remained in the files of the Russian president in the early 90's when I was shown it and went through it.

Hitler knew Anna Anderson was a fraud.  Stalin did too and Soviet agents nurtured the Anastasia myth in order to create dissension in White Russian circles in the West and discredit the Romanov family.  What support they gave and who their agents were I don't know.

Bob

Bob you are 100% correct.

That Sokolov Dossier has been declassified and parts have just been published in 2007 for the very first time, thanks to the efforts of two military jurists of the Russian Federation. This fascinating publication offers supplementary material not seen previously. The collection has an interesting history by itself. The nazis obtained the material soon after they entered Paris. After the Red Army liberated Berlin, those 4 volumes were secured by the Soviets and transfered to the Special Military Archives (GVP) in Moscow and never saw the light of day until November 1987.

Bob you are indeed fortunate to have been given the opportunity to examine those pages.

Margarita
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on October 16, 2007, 08:27:53 PM
Since my time for these postings is becoming limited, and I can only scan the topics from time to time now, What I will do is post responses or such information as I have on the one thread that someone set up with my name. I will put this on all the threads that have put recent statements about my replies or questions to me. Earlier, I had copied out only one set of questions from “Rob,” that I will transfer to the single thread. Anyone else who wants follow-up will have to transfer their post to that thread. No guarantees of satisfaction.

I recognize that there is an effort to assure me that I am not Don Quixote, and that there are no windmills. I do not propose to “convince” anyone of anything. I do not advocate. When asked, I have stated my views. Such facts as I have, I share. I state them, I don’t try to prove them.

My reason for posting again, was being drawn in by the calumnies against those now dead; then drifting into two other threads of related topics. For a broader overview, some might consider going back over my posts to various threads on this site over years past. I think they will find they make up a consistent whole. If not, the fault is mine.

Dick Schweitzer

 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: klava1985 on October 17, 2007, 05:30:47 PM
The first part of the above is honest speculation, the final three paragraphs assertions that cannot be supported and that do not necessarily follow.

A note:
A mental illness is a physical illness.


Some questions for you, Annie (and anyone else):

Do you think FS indeed might have run afoul of Grossman at some point? Could this have been her great escape?

What do we know about her dream of being an actress? When I was eight I told my neighbor that I wanted to be a writer, a lawyer, or president of the United States. I have not been suicidal over the failure to realize any of these, though of course I am not FS. My sister believes I have "sold out" a previous dream of being an ambassador; if that was my dream, I was far less attached to it than my sister was... What we have of FS are a few random memories and impressions that do not a biography or even a character sketch make.

Do we know that she refused to give her identity...I mean, are we sure that it was a refusal and not an inability?

If she was *unable* to give her identity, how might that play into what happened later?







Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Kransnoeselo on October 17, 2007, 09:32:08 PM
Given that AA's response to the Doctor's inquries could at times be rather teasing. When they suggested she was a certain someone she retorted that they were not well informed.  It appears from the early reports that it was not an inability but an unwillingness.  She also plucked out hairs to alter the look of her hairline and had several teeth removed- some which were pointed out were not needed to be removed. 

Though certainly it could be argued that she suffered from a head injury (which may very well be the origins of some of her mental illness symptomatology) from the grenade explosion she incurred while working at a German arms plant.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: klava1985 on October 17, 2007, 10:51:11 PM
yeah, a head injury is yet another possibility.

my guess is that the AN story resonated for FS as she became aware of it. on some symbolic level, it was *as if* her family had been murdered and her world obliterated. it was *as if* she'd had to flee across the russian plains. it was *as if* she had once been a princess. the AN narrative made sense to her on some kind of cellular level, regardless of her actual memories, if she had any.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Lucien on October 18, 2007, 02:29:54 AM
A suicidal type,asylums are full of 'm,then and now.Don't look for more then there actually is.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: loulia on October 18, 2007, 02:40:27 PM
When working at hospital in intensive care, I met many patients who tried to commit suicide, for a lot of reasons, and most of them seemed to me insignificant, I mean completly disproportional: soft arguments with their relatives, little problem at work... and some of them did it because of loneliness, but it's especially old people. Of course we can't know what's happen in her head, but I don't think something terrible happen inevitably.
May be the thoughts of her dead fiancé, and her brother's birthday which remind her she was far from her familly... I think it's enough.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 18, 2007, 03:22:25 PM
Did FS's family ever mention that FS was suicidal prior to 1920?

Does anyone remember reading anywhere if FS ever attempted suicide after she became an Anastasia claimant, or was she ever considered suicidal any time after that?

Most suicidal people don't just attempt suicide once, they try at least a few times through their lives, some do it until they succeed.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 18, 2007, 04:52:15 PM
Did FS's family ever mention that FS was suicidal prior to 1920?

Does anyone remember reading anywhere if FS ever attempted suicide after she became an Anastasia claimant, or was she ever considered suicidal any time after that?

Most suicidal people don't just attempt suicide once, they try at least a few times through their lives, some do it until they succeed.

Ah, but that was FS who wanted to die, as "Anastasia" she had something to live for ;) Most suicidal people don't get such a lucky chance to completely change their lives and indentities. It's my theory that she DID kill herself, as FS, in a metaphorical suicide. FS was 'dead', her life ended that night in the cnanal. Her body lived on, but not as FS.  Since as AA/"Anastasia" she no longer wanted to die, so she didn't try to kill herself again.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 18, 2007, 04:59:54 PM


Some questions for you, Annie (and anyone else):

Do you think FS indeed might have run afoul of Grossman at some point? Could this have been her great escape?

Well, I have thought in a wild, unverified way, that maybe it was possible she did encounter him and some of the scars AA/FS had on her body were from a fight with him. I really do think most or all came from the grenade factory, but Grossmann is just another idea of how she may have come to be so cut up. We know it wasn't in Ekaterinburg!

Quote
What do we know about her dream of being an actress? When I was eight I told my neighbor that I wanted to be a writer, a lawyer, or president of the United States. I have not been suicidal over the failure to realize any of these, though of course I am not FS. My sister believes I have "sold out" a previous dream of being an ambassador; if that was my dream, I was far less attached to it than my sister was... What we have of FS are a few random memories and impressions that do not a biography or even a character sketch make.

I think her life itself makes a character sketch. She did become a famous actress, in her own way. She pretended to be a dead princess. She didn't sell it out. Maybe one reason she was so depressed in Berlin is because she could see her whole life as working in miserable factories and breweries and her dreams of acting never coming true?

Quote
Do we know that she refused to give her identity...I mean, are we sure that it was a refusal and not an inability?

If she was *unable* to give her identity, how might that play into what happened later?

When I first heard of the AA story years ago, I had always assumed she'd had amnesia. But the more I read about it, the more it seemed like she didn't. It is my personal opinion that she refused to give her identity because she wanted to abandon it. She never gave one until someone gave her the idea to be a Grand Duchess. I really believe, as I said in my previous post, she 'killed herself' as FS and only lived on as someone else.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: loulia on October 19, 2007, 02:11:17 AM


When I first heard of the AA story years ago, I had always assumed she'd had amnesia. But the more I read about it, the more it seemed like she didn't. It is my personal opinion that she refused to give her identity because she wanted to abandon it. She never gave one until someone gave her the idea to be a Grand Duchess. I really believe, as I said in my previous post, she 'killed herself' as FS and only lived on as someone else.

I completly agree with you Annie
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 19, 2007, 05:19:30 PM


When I first heard of the AA story years ago, I had always assumed she'd had amnesia. But the more I read about it, the more it seemed like she didn't. It is my personal opinion that she refused to give her identity because she wanted to abandon it. She never gave one until someone gave her the idea to be a Grand Duchess. I really believe, as I said in my previous post, she 'killed herself' as FS and only lived on as someone else.

I completly agree with you Annie

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on October 19, 2007, 09:09:57 PM
Yes Annie, I also agree with you there. FS wanted to dies becuase she thought she herself was unimportant. Then when she pretended to be 'Anastasia' and claimed to be her that was worth living for her. I honestly think that was the reason why she actually killed herself.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: imperial angel on October 21, 2007, 05:29:41 AM
I think she was like anyone in that sitiuation, of feeling like that and wanting to die, but for her it ended differently than it would have for most people in the same circumstances. But, my guess is, regardless of what happened after she wanted to end her life ( and we know what did!!), is that her emotions were what anyone in that sitiuation of feeling that down would feel. It doesn't matter what drove her to feel that way, it only matters that she did feel that way. Sometimes having unfulfilled dreams as mentioned, might drive someone to that point, and sometimes it might not, it would depend on the circumstances and how much importance someone attached to achieving that dream.

Some people wouldn't be bothered by whether they were an actress, and had fulfilled that dream, or if they were just an ordinary, unknown person, and hadn't fulfilled that dream. Knowing FS, she might welll have been the type to have been that distraught over something like an unfulfilled dream, as regards being a famous actress. She seems to have had, correctly, a sense of destiny( I get that from Massie's the Final Chapter).Also, I agree with Loulia that it might not be major things/something terrible that would have made FS or anyone contemplate suicide. Sometimes it seems to be the little things that blow over later that might drive someone to that point, not the major ones. In my opinion, FS had many reasons in 1920 to contemplate suicide, from the little to the big as mentioned on this thread. It might have been all of them, or just one. What matters is only the effect these things/thing had on her state of mind.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Alixz on October 27, 2007, 11:30:25 PM
It has been said the suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

That is because as Loulia said, many times the reasons are not huge, but small to everyone but the suicidal.

Franzeska had every reason to be sad.  The death of her fiance and the grenade explosion which disfigured her.  The loss of her job and income.  The way her family seemed to have rejected her even before she became AA.  Perhaps she had even been raped and that is where the supposed child came from. Perhaps she had only one other option for income and that was prostitution.  Maybe she was too ashamed to go home. Who knows? 

I wish there were more sources to look into for information about her.  I can't afford to travel to Germany just to do research.  And, if I did have the money, I would go to St. Petersburg first.  Then I would go to Germany to find my own relatives, not Franzeska's.

Franzeska was a very lucky woman at having been pulled out of that canal.  She was sent to an asylum, but in the 1920s, unlike now, asylums were places for people to get well and get help.  Not like the "locked down" hospitals that we have today where insurance companies determine how long a patient can stay and what treatment they need instead of the dedicated doctors.

In my humble opinion, Franziska did not jump into the canal with the idea of being rescued and becoming Anastasia.  I think that that scenario just began to run with Clara Peuthert and then as it gained momentum, Franzeska began to run with it.

Why she treated so many of her supporters with disdain and contempt and rudeness is a bigger mystery than why she took on someone else's identity.

With a salute to Mr. Schweitzer, I know that if I were trying to infiltrate a royal family and build a support base for taking on the identity of a lost daughter, I would have been more circumspect and less of an outrageous and obnoxious problem to those who wanted to help me.

And by the time that Mr. Schweitzer met Franziska, she was so entrenched in her role either because she had accepted it in her own mind or because she had just gotten very good at it, it is quite easy to see why he would have believed in her story. And it must have been hard for him to disagree with his father-in-law let alone his own wife.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 30, 2007, 12:52:29 PM
Bear mentioned in another thread that 60 years was a long time to keep up the act. I assume by this bear means she doesn't believe AA was acting.

But looking at it from Franziska's point of view, what would you do? She had already made the claim and it went on for years and caused a lot of trouble and cost a lot of money. Too many people had invested in her case to abandon it. I still don't know if she ever believed she was AN, if she did I don't think it happened until she was old. But even then, once she had married John Manahan, there was no way she could admit she was lying, or he'd leave her and she'd have no place to go. What were her options? She couldn't just say 'okay I'm not AN', she would have been completely humiliated, and she probably would have faced fraud and false claim charges and asked to pay back what she cost everyone. She may have ended up in an insane asylum. She couldn't go crawling back to her family once they had gone to so much trouble to deny her. So you see she was stuck and really couldn't afford to ever give it up. Maybe it was when she realized this that she finally went off the deep end for the last time and became AN in her mind? I also wonder if she ever worried about being exposed, and lost any sleep over it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: loulia on October 30, 2007, 03:32:14 PM
I think she knew get any advantage by telling the truth (if she knew she was not AN and I have a doubt about it), while she needs the advantages she procures because of her lie, only to survive, financially and psychologically. How could she claims she was FS when FS didn't live on earth for years: she had no more job, friends, goal and even familly... If she said so, she had to start a new life under the name of someone she tried to forget and bear an international shame, and I'm not even speaking about financier consequences!
I guess at one point she probably felt lock in a trap she built herself. May be it could explain the way she was with her supporters, she felt she was their prisonner in a way...
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on October 30, 2007, 03:47:13 PM
Once a con artist, fraud and pathological liar always one.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: stacey on October 31, 2007, 10:48:42 AM
Annie, I entirely agree with you!  :)

Some very interesting thoughts here.

I have always wondered what became of her alleged child. Because apparently she wasn't the only one to assert that she had given birth to a child--didn't a doctor who examined her after she was rescued from the canal say that she had given birth to at least one child? I would think a doctor would know about something like that!! But the child if it did exist never showed up as far as we know--perhaps it did die and that is why she was so distraught?? (Just a theory of course!)

About her mental illness and the fact that she alienated people who wanted to help her--I majored in psychology and the more I read about her, the more I'm convinced that (perhaps among other things) she suffered from borderline personality disorder. Her behavior definitely seems consistent with that diagnosis. And I'm not saying that to criticize or belittle her--some doctors have thought I am borderline myself--maybe it takes one to know one?!  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: stacey on October 31, 2007, 11:20:08 AM
About the languages--I wonder just how well the genuine Grand Duchess Anastasia spoke other languages, such as French, English, and German? I don't think I've ever really heard--I know she was said to be a brilliant mimic and I would think that would be a definite asset in learning another language. Still, Ive also heard she wasn't exactly the scholarly type either!

I do recall reading that she (and her sisters) spoke Russian with other Russians (including the servants), and with their father, but spoke English with their mother, since Alix was never very comfortable with the Russian language--English and German were her languages. So Anastasia certainly should have been fluent in at least Russian and English.

I don't know how "good" AA/FS's German was (I've heard not very good!) but I know for sure her English was frightful!!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 31, 2007, 11:30:03 AM
So Anastasia certainly should have been fluent in at least Russian and English.

Right, and AA being good at neither is a big blow against her, as is this fact

Quote
she was said to be a brilliant mimic and I would think that would be a definite asset in learning another language.

Because she was a great mimic, she was able to pick up accents of all sorts of foreign people speaking various languages. Of all the things mentioned about the REAL Anastasia in her life, this seemed to be her one true gift. So for AA to claim she was AN and just use that one accent for everything and be so terrible at picking up languages and accents should really have sent up a red flag that she wasn't Anastasia!

Quote
I don't know how "good" AA/FS's German was (I've heard not very good!) but I know for sure her English was frightful!!

We do know for sure her English was terrible because we can hear her on videos and recordings. I know some ladies who came from Germany in the 1950's and their English is beautiful with a beautiful German accent- nothing like what AA sounded like. I really believe AA/FS's first language was Kashubian Polish and German was her second language, and not very good. All the rest came later after someone tried to teach her. (there is NO evidence she spoke any of them other than a few unverifyable comments from AA supporters, which are counteracted by Felix Y. and Olga A. saying she knew no English, French or Russian when they met, and the fact she never proved in front of the court she could speak or read Russian.)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on October 31, 2007, 11:43:15 AM
Annie, I entirely agree with you!  :)

Thanks! (Louila too!) :)

Quote
Some very interesting thoughts here.

I have always wondered what became of her alleged child. Because apparently she wasn't the only one to assert that she had given birth to a child--didn't a doctor who examined her after she was rescued from the canal say that she had given birth to at least one child? I would think a doctor would know about something like that!! But the child if it did exist never showed up as far as we know--perhaps it did die and that is why she was so distraught?? (Just a theory of course!)

I think that's a very good theory. I am convinced that whatever happened to her child was a big part of the depression that led her to attempt suicide. AA supporters like to say as a 'fact' that 'AA had borne a child and FS had not.' But we don't know that! In those days  girls hid their illegitimate pregnancies, so it's not unusual that there would be no record of the child, or that she wouldn't have told her family. It could have died, or even been left to die (even now you still  hear about girls tossing their baby in the trash can) or it could have been anonymously abandoned on a doorstep or in an orphanage. It may not even have been carried to term. I've told the story before, but it's true, my Grandmother lost a baby at 4-5 months gestation falling down the steps,but in her old age a dr. examined her and told her she'd had five children, though only four were live babies. That proves that a baby at least 4 months along into pregnancy leaves the same scar on the uterus as a full term baby. So it's possible that FS could have had miscarried or even had an illegal abortion, and that also may have made her feel bad. Whatever happened must have been a bad experience that added to her depression. All we know is there was a child, because she and AA were the same person. If the baby did live and was still out there, she probably wouldn't have wanted it found because it would tie her to FS and the life she ran away from. (this could be why she threw off the trail by saying it was left in Romania)

Quote
About her mental illness and the fact that she alienated people who wanted to help her--I majored in psychology and the more I read about her, the more I'm convinced that (perhaps among other things) she suffered from borderline personality disorder. Her behavior definitely seems consistent with that diagnosis. And I'm not saying that to criticize or belittle her--some doctors have thought I am borderline myself--maybe it takes one to know one?!  ;)

Hey that's a good one, personality disorder! That makes a lot of sense in her case!
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 31, 2007, 01:33:25 PM
About her mental illness and the fact that she alienated people who wanted to help her--I majored in psychology and the more I read about her, the more I'm convinced that (perhaps among other things) she suffered from borderline personality disorder. Her behavior definitely seems consistent with that diagnosis.

There is a very good chance FS had a personality disorder, in fact, if we go by what has been written about her, she is almost a textbook case... So I would agree with this one.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: stacey on October 31, 2007, 11:54:08 PM
Thanks, Annie and Helen!!  :)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on November 01, 2007, 09:57:39 AM
Thank YOU Stacey, and please come back and comment more often! It's great to have a discussion on FS without the old tired spectre of 'but she was AN' surfacing again.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on November 01, 2007, 06:33:25 PM
The real Anastasia was far more interesting than the fraud AA/FS. One was a member of the Russian Imperial Family in the last phase of Tsardom. The other was either mentally ill or a complete and utter con artist with no connection whatsoever to the Romanovs. It is the real Anastasia who will be remembered. The other is just a ludicrous footnote.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on November 02, 2007, 08:33:41 AM
Yes what an incredibly bad fraud. Just shows you how ignorant people will believe anything they choose to ignoring basic facts.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 11, 2007, 09:47:40 PM
Yes what an incredibly bad fraud. Just shows you how ignorant people will believe anything they choose to ignoring basic facts.

dmitri, you say basically the same thing on replies #22, 44, 64, 69, and 72. By very generous interpretation on my part, you have actually said something than your endlessly repetitive "she was a fraud, she was a liar" on several others.

At no point do you bother to present any evidence that her fraud, if it was such, was deliberate on her part. At no point do you refute the ample evidence that she was mentally ill. So, to me and countless others, you are simply babbling as a baby babbles, and not really saying anything.

Yes, dmitri, we all get that this is your opinion, but you need not constantly repeat it on hundreds of threads - we all get it. I just wish when you post you would actually say something, and would be very welcome.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on November 11, 2007, 10:06:32 PM
Quote
Because she was a great mimic, she was able to pick up accents of all sorts of foreign people speaking various languages. Of all the things mentioned about the REAL Anastasia in her life, this seemed to be her one true gift. So for AA to claim she was AN and just use that one accent for everything and be so terrible at picking up languages and accents should really have sent up a red flag that she wasn't Anastasia!
Yes, and she also tricked people into thinking she was Anastasia by imatating her expressions in photographs she has seen of the Real Anastasia. She knows that their are people stupid enough to believe in her story, and her fake tricks she pulled up on the camra. AA's life was indeed sad and pathetic.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: dmitri on November 12, 2007, 12:28:03 AM
Yes there is ample evidence available about AA. It's all out there if people bother and so easy to find if people bother to look for it. She didn't look at all like her, didn't speak the languages Anastasia did so masterfully and so on. She described royal residences incorrectly and so on. The list goes on and on.To top it off her DNA didn't match. Of course all those who really knew the real Anastasia have been treated as if they knew nothing. How contemptible is that I wonder? What her state of health might have been is really not at all relevant. That was her personal situation and had nothing at all to do with the real Grand Duchess Anastasia. The important fact is that AA chose for whatever reason to steal the identity of a murdered Grand Duchess. That is hardly acceptable behaviour. Others chose to aid her for whatever reason in this game. To keep the fraud going after her death when it is known that this woman was not at all related to the Romanovs is bizarre at best. One wonders whether these people have any interest at all in Russian history. It would seem not.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on November 12, 2007, 07:17:36 AM
Quote
Others chose to aid her for whatever reason in this game. To keep the fraud going after her death when it is known that this woman was not at all related to the Romanovs is bizarre at best. One wonders whether these people have any interest at all in Russian history. It would seem not.
I realy think that they don't care about Anastasia just keeping AA's story alive. They are so sure Anastasia is AA and yet they barly know much about Anastasia's life or the Romanovs. Exactly if they did care and know a whole lot about Anastasia they would have denied AA. But, they have nothing else to do becuase they think AA is so interesting and they are always defending her becuase they think it is a game. Realy I think they are not being serious. AA was a mentally ill and sick woman who was in low society and she begged for her fame by pretending to be such a innocent and beautiful girl Anastasia. They never had nothing to do with each other. She is so evil to just pretend to be someone else's identity just for attention and money. It is realy wrong to inpersonate someone else and lie about it.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: G_Lermontov on July 22, 2008, 02:05:43 AM
If I recall correctly, AA's brother and sister were brought in to identify her after the Berliner Nachtausgabe story was published in 1927.  At first both her brother, Felix, and sister identified her as being Fransiska.  She then spoke to her brother privately, after which he changed his story and said that she wasn't his sister.  Fransiska's sister had a minor outburst at the end of the session, yelling something along the lines of "I know you are my sister!  Admit it!"

I'm recalling this from memory from Robert K. Massie's The Romanovs:  The Final Chapter, so forgive me if some of the exact details are incorrect, but I believe the gist of the story is right.

What became of the Schanzkowska siblings, and were they ever sought out by an intrepid reporter in the many decades of later fascination with the Anna Anderson story?  I would love to hear more details about these people.

Also, I wonder what transpired in the conversation between AA and her brother that caused him to change his mind?  I imagine it would have been something like "Felix, these crazy people think I'm a Russian Grand Duchess, and they're feeding me, clothing me, and putting me up in castles.  Don't ruin this for me!"  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Michael HR on July 22, 2008, 05:58:06 AM
It was indeed intresting that at first they seem to recognize her and then do a complete turn around and then say they did not, as I recall. It would be intresting to hear from members of her family today and what they think of the Anna Anderson story and there views on the outcome with the DNA.

Did not one of her Sisters insist that she was  FS and got quite angry when AA would not admit this?
 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 22, 2008, 10:21:53 PM
I really believe they decided to deny her for her, and their own, good. What good would come from claiming her? She'd be labeled a fraud and sent to jail for filing a false claim, or to the insane home. After the Nazis took over Germany,(by the time of the trial) being ruled insane was grounds to be sent to a concentration camp and usually killed. Remember FS was declared legally insane in 1916, so if she were proven to be FS that's where she'd go.

Think about it, if she were your sister, would you claim her? What, and drag her home kicking and screaming you'd ruined her claim? Who was going to support her the rest of her life even if she got out of jail/asylum, them? Who'd be responsible for all the financial and legal mess caused to German taxpayers by her case, and all the police investigations, medical care, etc. Who'd want to claim that? Felix S. made the comment one time "if she is my sister I won't have to be responsible for her, will I?" Also among the older generations family shame and humiliation was a big thing and she brought that to them. There's even the added possibility (this was a friend's theory not mine) that she may even have begged them not to expose her in exchange for a cut of the payoff if she won. Over the years, a couple of the nieces have made comments that the family knew AA was FS all along. In Klier and Mingay's book, they say that even to this day they family is afraid of somehow being held responsible for AA's actions.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Foxglove on July 24, 2008, 03:35:37 AM
If I recall correctly, AA's brother and sister were brought in to identify her after the Berliner Nachtausgabe story was published in 1927.  At first both her brother, Felix, and sister identified her as being Fransiska.  She then spoke to her brother privately, after which he changed his story and said that she wasn't his sister.  Fransiska's sister had a minor outburst at the end of the session, yelling something along the lines of "I know you are my sister!  Admit it!"

You are correct, although initially, it was Felix who went to visit Anna, and later, joined his siblings in 1938 to identify yet her again, which is when Gertrude inisted that Anna was their sister.

From what I have read, I gained the impression that the family wanted little to do with Franziska/Anna before and after her disappearance. It was hinted that Mrs. Schanzkowska no longer wanted the young and pretty Franziska with her new stepfather, which is why Franziska departed for Berlin. After her accident, Franziska returned back to her mother’s care, but then left the house again. Later, when we read that Franziska lived alone at the Wingenders’ almost as a “charity case”, it makes one wonder why she did not continue to live with her mother or any of her siblings when she was still unwell.

Also, I found the initial meeting between Felix and Anna to be, um, strange to say the least, and it just presented some inaccuracies for me.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 24, 2008, 10:19:43 AM


From what I have read, I gained the impression that the family wanted little to do with Franziska/Anna before and after her disappearance. It was hinted that Mrs. Schanzkowska no longer wanted the young and pretty Franziska with her new stepfather, which is why Franziska departed for Berlin.

Where did  you read this? Is it something I can quote? I thought I'd seen it before and that is my own personal theory too. I have also even wondered if perhaps the baby FS had/lost was not fathered by the stepfather. It makes perfect sense she'd leave home because of the stepfather, I personally know several women who did so as young girls for the same reason. I also strongly suspect that FS was estranged from her family at the time of her suicide attempt, and that likely contributed to her depression (not to mention her not being reported missing for 3 weeks) I saw one list posted here of the family that had Felix's birthday listed as Feb. 17- the same day she jumped, and add to this he claims to have gotten a card from her. Could it be that card was sent before she jumped as some kind of 'guilt trip' once he found out later she had died on his birthday (if her attempt was successful)  Even though she survived the jump physically, she killed herself metaphorically. She refused to acknowledge her identity as FS (becoming Miss Unknown) until she lucked into getting her 'new identity' of "Anastasia." If we could find out the true story behind FS and why she chose to try to kill herself, it would be a story more interesting than her claim.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: stepan on July 24, 2008, 05:05:27 PM
It´s interesting to read what Dmitry of Leuchtenburg,son of Georg of Leuchtenburg, wrote in a letter to G.D. Olga´s biographer Ian Vorres : "I was present during the surprise meeting of Mrs Tschaikovsky with Felix Schanzkovsky when the latter recognized her as his sister Franziska agreeing to sign a statement to that effect.Later following a short conference with his sister beyond our earshot he refused to sign such a statement for reasons that could be easily understood. He was a poor communist miner,his mother was very ill with cancer without means and his sister lived in a castle being treated as a potential Grand Duchess. Why should he spoil her´career´?"
I was surprised to find this letter at Wikipedia. I haven´t seen it published before. But I knew that Dmitry von Leuchtenburg always believed that AA was Franziska.He had lived with her like the rest of the Leuchtenberg family for almost a year at Seeon castle in Bavaria. At the German wikipedia I also found something interesting.  According to this Franziska´s full name was Franziska Anna Czenstkowski,daughter of Anton Czenstkovski and his wife Marianne, born Witzke. So Anna was one of her real names! Fascinating isen´t it?
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 24, 2008, 05:58:06 PM
There has been a lot of back and forth discussions here on the forum about FS's family and their reaction to Anna Anderson/FS. AA's supporters claim that no one in the family recognized AA as FS, except for one hysterical outburst from Gertrude at a meeting set up by the Nazis (I think), who later recanted. This is one of those topics where you can go back and forth forever, arguing that it happened or didn't happen. In my own speculation - I am pretty sure the siblings recognized her, and initially admitted to it, perhaps somewhat involuntarily (at least Felix and Gertrude did), but then, having some time to ponder on it, decided to deny it. Well, I can't say that I blame them. 
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 24, 2008, 11:19:41 PM
It´s interesting to read what Dmitry of Leuchtenburg,son of Georg of Leuchtenburg, wrote in a letter to G.D. Olga´s biographer Ian Vorres : "I was present during the surprise meeting of Mrs Tschaikovsky with Felix Schanzkovsky when the latter recognized her as his sister Franziska agreeing to sign a statement to that effect.Later following a short conference with his sister beyond our earshot he refused to sign such a statement for reasons that could be easily understood. He was a poor communist miner,his mother was very ill with cancer without means and his sister lived in a castle being treated as a potential Grand Duchess. Why should he spoil her´career´?"
I was surprised to find this letter at Wikipedia. I haven´t seen it published before. But I knew that Dmitry von Leuchtenburg always believed that AA was Franziska.He had lived with her like the rest of the Leuchtenberg family for almost a year at Seeon castle in Bavaria. At the German wikipedia I also found something interesting.  According to this Franziska´s full name was Franziska Anna Czenstkowski,daughter of Anton Czenstkovski and his wife Marianne, born Witzke. So Anna was one of her real names! Fascinating isen´t it?

Yes it is! Thank you, you always have brought us things from other countries and languages we don't usually see. This is very interesting additional information! If you find more please do let us know.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Foxglove on July 26, 2008, 05:14:18 AM
Where did  you read this? Is it something I can quote? I thought I'd seen it before and that is my own personal theory too. I have also even wondered if perhaps the baby FS had/lost was not fathered by the stepfather. It makes perfect sense she'd leave home because of the stepfather, I personally know several women who did so as young girls for the same reason. I also strongly suspect that FS was estranged from her family at the time of her suicide attempt, and that likely contributed to her depression (not to mention her not being reported missing for 3 weeks) I saw one list posted here of the family that had Felix's birthday listed as Feb. 17- the same day she jumped, and add to this he claims to have gotten a card from her. Could it be that card was sent before she jumped as some kind of 'guilt trip' once he found out later she had died on his birthday (if her attempt was successful)  Even though she survived the jump physically, she killed herself metaphorically. She refused to acknowledge her identity as FS (becoming Miss Unknown) until she lucked into getting her 'new identity' of "Anastasia." If we could find out the true story behind FS and why she chose to try to kill herself, it would be a story more interesting than her claim.

I remember reading this on another forum, and the poster of this information had written that this came from Penny Wilson, so I can only take that poster’s word on it. This is all I can recall from memory though. It is difficult to tell just what exactly happened between Franziska and her stepfather, because there are so many scenarios to choose from, ranging from the general woes of a blended family to something more sinister.

I do agree that the suicide attempt on her brother’s birthday is interesting, to say the least. Whether it carries significant meaning, or was simply a spur-of-the-moment decision to choose that particular time, will forever be unknown to us, I suppose.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2008, 12:06:55 PM
Thanks, I know my theory on the birthday is just a guess but something to think about just the same. I do wonder if the story of FS and her stepfather is fact based or speculation, it would be interesting to find out for sure.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Kitt on July 26, 2008, 07:57:08 PM
Perhaps some of you might be able to answer a question I have had.  After AA spoke about Ernie of Hesse making a trip to Russia during WWI, Ernest Ludwig had a investigation done, and hired a private investigator, Martin Knopf. The question is how did Knopf go from "Miss Nobody" to Franciska Schanzkowska? How did the Schanzkowska name come forward? Most of what I read seems to leave that part out.  Even though DNA seems to show connections to AA, It seems to go from the point of not knowing who AA is (Now we know she wasn't Anastasia)  to correctly picking the one person with similar DNA characteristics.  So, how did they pick out of thousands, the Schanzkowska family out of the hat?
All the best,  Kitt
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 26, 2008, 09:04:53 PM
Evidently, Ernie had the time, resources and personal interest in the case to do and fund a complete investigation (unlike the Berlin police at the time, due to strife, hyperinflation and unrest) His detective, doing a more thorough search, had no trouble connecting AA to FS, who had disappeared in the same time frame and place AA appeared. I don't know what all he did, where he searched or what he found, since most stories of AA are written by AA supporters, they don't tell much about the other side and things negative to her cause. I think Doris Wingender, the woman FS was boarding with at the time she disappeared, had a hand in fingering her as AA.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Foxglove on July 27, 2008, 04:04:51 AM
Perhaps some of you might be able to answer a question I have had.  After AA spoke about Ernie of Hesse making a trip to Russia during WWI, Ernest Ludwig had a investigation done, and hired a private investigator, Martin Knopf. The question is how did Knopf go from "Miss Nobody" to Franciska Schanzkowska? How did the Schanzkowska name come forward? Most of what I read seems to leave that part out.  Even though DNA seems to show connections to AA, It seems to go from the point of not knowing who AA is (Now we know she wasn't Anastasia)  to correctly picking the one person with similar DNA characteristics.  So, how did they pick out of thousands, the Schanzkowska family out of the hat?
All the best,  Kitt

If I remember correctly, a German newspaper, the Berliner Nachtausgabe, hired private investigator Martin Knopf to identify “Mrs. Unknown”, although Mr. Knopf was paid by Ernest Louis, Grand Duke of Hesse. How the Grand Duke got involved exactly is still vague to me, with some accounts stating that he paid a journalist at that paper to uncover Anna’s identity, which is how Mr. Knopf came aboard. A photograph of Anna was published in the Berliner Nachtausgabe asking if anyone could identify this woman. That is when one Doris Wingender went to visit Martin Knopf at his office, and informed him that the woman he was investigating was Franziska Schanzkowska, a former lodger of Ms. Wingender’s mother, who had disappeared several years earlier.

From my readings, Doris Wingender has been made a villain to an almost unfair extent, although ironically enough, had it not been for her, it is probable that Anna’s true identity might have remained unknown to this day...
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Kitt on July 27, 2008, 06:14:59 AM
Thank you so much for giving me some "leads" on this subject.  I guess with the recent events that point conclusively that the entire family was executed, that the AA and FS subject might be one of the  few viable mysteries now. Certainly it is interesting.
All the best, Kitt
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 27, 2008, 08:48:19 AM

From my readings, Doris Wingender has been made a villain to an almost unfair extent, although ironically enough, had it not been for her, it is probable that Anna’s true identity might have remained unknown to this day...

I agree, but of course the AA supporters hate her and try to discredit her in their desperate attempt to be rid of FS so AA can be AN (which of course is not going to happen) AA supporters say she wanted money to tell the story, but that doesn't mean it wasn't true. A lot of people who have the 'goods' on somebody in the public eye sing like a canary for money all the time, that's how the tabloids and shows like ET and Access Holllywood get their stories. Larry Birkhead and Howard K. Stern are set for life. So she saw she had valuable info, who can blame her? Here's more on FS and Doris, from Massie's "Final Chapter":

"The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" Robert K. Massie, pages 178-179 softback:

Doris Wingender said that Franziska had been a lodger in her mother's home until her disappearance in March 1920. Over two years later, during the summer of 1922, Doris reported, Franziska had suddenly returned and said that she had been living with a number of Russian monarchist families "who apparently mistook her for someone else." Franziska had stayed for three days, Doris continued, and while she was there, the two women had exchanged clothing: Franziska took from Doris a dark blue suit....she handed over a mauve dress, some monogrammed underwear, and a camel's hair coat. Then, once again, Franzkisa vanished.

To verify the story ,the newspaper hired a detective, Martin Knopf, who took the clothing Franziska had left behind at the Wingenders' to one of the Russian emigre households where Fraulein U. had stayed in 1922. Baron and Baroness von Kleist recognized it. "I bought the camel's hair myself." said the baron, "That's the underwear I monogrammed myself" cried the baroness. For the benefit of the newspapers, the "Riddle of Anastasia" was solved.


page 180, account of a writer for the paper:

... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.


Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 27, 2008, 08:57:06 AM
Here are some photos of AA/FS and her real life siblings:

Here are some photographs which I compiled of AA and the Schanzkowski family

Below is Left: Gertrude Schanzkowska Franziska's sister who recognized AA (Gleb Botkin himself admited to a resemblence between the two of them) and Right: Anna Anderson
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/franz4.jpg)


Below Left and Right Anna Anderson. Center: Gertrude Schanzkowska
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/franz5.jpg)


Below Left and Right: Anna Anderson. Center Maria-Juliana Schanzkowska who the Schanzkowski family said Franziska most resembled.  When Franziska's former teacher and his wife were shown a photograph of Anna Anderson they stated that it didn't look like Franziska but like Maria-Juliana.  Also note that both AA and Maria-Juliana have the same hairstyle- with the exception that they parted their hair on opposite sides.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/franz3.jpg) 

Below Left and Right: Anna Anderson. Center: Karl Maucher (Franziska's great-nephew)
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/maucheraa.jpg)

 Below: (Top) Anastasia's handwriting.  (Center) Franziska's handwriting (Bottom) Anna Anderson's handwriting. Notice how the way Anastasia's
"s" differs from how both Franziska and Anna wrote their "s" and how similar both the "s" and the "k" are between Franziska and Anna.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/hand1.jpg)

Below: From Left to Right: Anna Anderson, Waltraud (Felix Schanzkowski's daughter), Anna Anderson and Felix Schanzkowski.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/franz2.jpg)
And enlargement of the series above. Note the remarkable resemblance between their mouths.
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/lips2.jpg)

Below: From Left to Right: Anna Anderson, Tatiana Nikolaivena Romanova (Anastasia's sister), Maria-Juliana Schanzkowska (Franziska's sister), Anna Anderson. At first glance one can see some similarity between AA and Tatiana, but then when one looks at the photograph of Maira-Juliana one can see the ways AA differs from Tatiana and how much she resembles Maria-Juliana (Franziska's sister).
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/atma.jpg)

Another comparrison of Anna Anderson's lips (Left) and Felix Schanzkowska's daughter Waultrad
(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/lips3.jpg)


Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Foxglove on July 28, 2008, 03:48:09 AM
To be fair to Ms. Wingender, it was said that a part of the money was compensation for time off work, when she had to meet with individuals concerning Anna. I think anyone in her position would have asked for expenses to be covered, too. The rest of the money was extra for her time and the information, which is where the controversy begins, as some frown upon it, and feel any information on her part should have been voluntary.


Quote
To verify the story ,the newspaper hired a detective, Martin Knopf, who took the clothing Franziska had left behind at the Wingenders' to one of the Russian emigre households where Fraulein U. had stayed in 1922. Baron and Baroness von Kleist recognized it. "I bought the camel's hair myself." said the baron, "That's the underwear I monogrammed myself" cried the baroness. For the benefit of the newspapers, the "Riddle of Anastasia" was solved.

According to a sworn affidavit by the Baroness von Kleist from 1929, she denied the written account of the story written in the Nachtausgabe. However, I never understood why the reporter full-out lied and printed a false story. Allegations of being paid off by Grand Duke Ernest aside, surely someone at that paper would have spilled his guts if something was amiss concerning this story. Moreover, why did neither the Baron nor Baroness von Kleist sue the paper, or threaten to sue it (or the reporter) if they felt the article was defamatory, or slanderous to Anna, as well as to their own personal beliefs concerning her identity? Why not demand a retraction of the story, or even go to another paper and insist the story printed by the Nachtausgabe was completely false? Better yet, why not notarize a sworn affidavit two years earlier and have it published by a rival paper? Now that would give the public something to talk about!


Quote
... Mrs. Tchiakovsky (AA) faced with charges of assuming a false identity, had no choice. According to a writer for the Berlin Nachtausgabe, who was present with Martin Knopf, this is what happened:

The witness, Fr. Doris Wingender, enters the room. Franziska Schanzkowska lies on the divan, her face half covered with a blanket. The witness has barely said 'good day' before FS jerks up and cries in a heavily accented voice "That THING must get out!" The sudden agitation, the wild rage in her voice, the horror in her eyes, leave no doubt, she has recognized Wingender.

Wingender stands as if turned to stone. She has immediately recognized the lady on the divan as FS. That is the same face she saw day after day for four years. That is the same voice, the same nervous trick with the handkerchief, that is the same Franziska Schanzkowksa.[/i]

We had the reporter, Martin Knopf, Doris Wingender, Anna, and who else was present? If this account is also believed to have been falsified, what did Anna’s supports claim actually happened? I am curious to know both sides.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Annie on July 28, 2008, 11:38:39 AM
To be fair to Ms. Wingender, it was said that a part of the money was compensation for time off work, when she had to meet with individuals concerning Anna. I think anyone in her position would have asked for expenses to be covered, too. The rest of the money was extra for her time and the information, which is where the controversy begins, as some frown upon it, and feel any information on her part should have been voluntary.

I am not among those who blame her for wanting to be paid, though it would have been better if she didn't because AA supporters use it against her. It doesn't mean she was 'paid off' to 'lie' it only meant she felt fortunate to be in a position to have valuable info someone wanted and took advantage of it. Hey times were hard! Even now people sell TRUE stories of famous people to newspapers, magazines and TV shows and it doesn't mean it's not true. In some rare cases where it hasn't been there are lawsuits.


Quote

According to a sworn affidavit by the Baroness von Kleist from 1929, she denied the written account of the story written in the Nachtausgabe. However, I never understood why the reporter full-out lied and printed a false story. Allegations of being paid off by Grand Duke Ernest aside, surely someone at that paper would have spilled his guts if something was amiss concerning this story. Moreover, why did neither the Baron nor Baroness von Kleist sue the paper, or threaten to sue it (or the reporter) if they felt the article was defamatory, or slanderous to Anna, as well as to their own personal beliefs concerning her identity? Why not demand a retraction of the story, or even go to another paper and insist the story printed by the Nachtausgabe was completely false? Better yet, why not notarize a sworn affidavit two years earlier and have it published by a rival paper? Now that would give the public something to talk about!

You know, I doubt a lot of the allegedly 'sworn affadavits' the AA supporters toss around as being totally accurate, especially now that we know AA was FS and not AN. It sure is weird that though Mrs. Von Kliest claimed she didn't say that, the husband and daughter later denounced AA as a fraud. I don't think the newspaper lied, though that's always a handy and common excuse used by AA supporters.


Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 31, 2008, 06:43:22 PM
Regarding Ernst Ludwig, I have it on good authority that he considered his two sisters and Alexandra's children to be dead. He provided funding for the investigator into the Anna Anderson case as a matter of form, as the right thing to do, but he was not in any way personally invested in their work. He knew his niece was gone from this world.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Foxglove on September 01, 2008, 03:24:25 AM
We had the reporter, Martin Knopf, Doris Wingender, Anna, and who else was present? If this account is also believed to have been falsified, what did Anna’s supports claim actually happened? I am curious to know both sides.

I am going to answer my own question and provide additional information: apart from Martin Knopf, Doris Wingender, the reporter, and Anna, there was also an English governess present, Faith Lavington. Interesting, Ms. Lavington found Anna's reaction to Doris Wingender to be one of suspicion and perhaps slight disgust, as a proper English lady would when a stranger is treated poorly. She wrote in her diary that, "One would hardly treat a soi-distant unknown person in such a fashion. Anastasia did not even seem to trouble about the two men, she concentrated entirely on the woman" (A Romanov Fantasy, Frances Welch, p. 133-34).

What is of interest here is that Ms. Lavington appeared to be a supporter of Anna, and yet she herself had doubts she expressed in private. Moreover, her mention that Anna focused her attention on Ms. Wingender is also strange (to say the least!). If one of the family members had tipped Anna off that someone was coming to "discredit her", then it is stranger still as to why her focus was on only one person instead of all three. It should also be mentioned that after Mr. Knopf produced the now-infamous photo of Franziska, one of the Duke's daughters told Ms. Lavington that "her heart had sunk because the likeness was unmistakable," even as she accused the detective of faking the photograph.

After Anna's initial meeting with Felix Schanzkowski, the Leuchtenbergs told Ms. Lavington that Felix and Anna "were uncannily alike, sharing the same height, colouring, and features, particularly, apparently their mouths" (p. 136). I agree that Felix and Anna both had full lips; I admit surprise about sharing the same height. If Anna was to be 5'2" tall, then Felix must have been a very short man, or else he was a couple of inches taller, which means Anna was, too (which would fit in with the height of Franziska). On the other hand, knowing full well how subjective height can appear to the eye, it is probably too skewed a topic to broach anyway.

A sharper image of Felix Schanzkowski:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/icedberry/Felix.png)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Michael HR on September 01, 2008, 03:35:42 AM
Does anyone know what the Schanzkowski think about Anna Anderson today? Do they accept that AA was FS or AN or someone else? Just wondering.

Michael
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Proud_Olga on September 01, 2008, 05:07:34 AM

"The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" Robert K. Massie, pages 178-179 softback:

Doris Wingender said that Franziska had been a lodger in her mother's home until her disappearance in March 1920. Over two years later, during the summer of 1922, Doris reported, Franziska had suddenly returned and said that she had been living with a number of Russian monarchist families "who apparently mistook her for someone else." Franziska had stayed for three days, Doris continued, and while she was there, the two women had exchanged clothing: Franziska took from Doris a dark blue suit....she handed over a mauve dress, some monogrammed underwear, and a camel's hair coat. Then, once again, Franzkisa vanished.



I know someone who supports an historian's theory, this historian claims that Alix & OTMA survived. Anyway, this person, who supports this theory, told me that AA (Anastasia in his point of view) disappeared for three days, during this time, she  went at Maria's home, her 'sister', in Romania. I knew that AA vanished for three days  but I was checking where she got away because this fact was bothering me. Now, I know, thank you. I guess in a conspiracy theory you can say anything wherever there is a hole.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Michael HR on September 01, 2008, 05:12:16 AM
I'm not sure you could get from Berlin to Romania and back in three days anyway. Not that it matters as we know Anastasia died in July 1918 and that Anna Anderson was not her if only due to the DNA evidence that is now available. 

We also know that the Emperor, Empress and OTMA and Alexis died together.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: Proud_Olga on September 01, 2008, 05:24:23 AM
Yes, I know. DNA tests don't lie.
But this person doesn't believe them, anyway  I always wanted to know where AA went during these three days.
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: hubaczek on October 21, 2009, 05:47:03 PM
If you go to mapquest or another map finder,  look for the name Bytow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byt%C3%B3w

Seeing the distance from Berlin,  it doesn't seem to me that FS would have traveled from Buetow/ Bytwo every night.   

How much in touch were the Wingenders with FS during this time?

Did she return to the Wingenders on the weekends???

AGRBear
The distance from berlin to Bytow is about 400 km ;)
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: hubaczek on October 21, 2009, 06:36:32 PM

And,  yes,  Annie,  13 milies does seem like a long way to walk. 

It would take me a couple of days with a lot of stops. 

In those days,  people were use to walking distances,  so,  how long would it take to walk 13 miles at a normal pace (not in a hurry /  not running)?

AGRBear


it would take about 5-6 hours... (from Borowy Las to Bytow - try Google Maps ;))
Title: Re: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #4
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 25, 2009, 12:19:44 AM
Does anyone know what the Schanzkowski think about Anna Anderson today? Do they accept that AA was FS or AN or someone else? Just wondering.

Michael

My understanding is that privately the Schanzkowski never doubted that AA was FS. There were some legitimate worries FS's siblings had about being charged with various wrong doing in identifying Franziska due to all of her problems, but then and now, they always knew who she really was.