Alexander Palace Forum

Forum Announcements => Forum Announcements => Topic started by: Forum Admin on September 02, 2007, 03:47:50 PM

Title: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on September 02, 2007, 03:47:50 PM
People keep asking the same questions over and over again, so I have decided to put all the basic information in one place to keep these repetiious posts to a minimum.


On July 29, 2007, certain items were discovered by S.O. Plotnikov and L.G. Vakhmyakov.  In the bore pit that had been located and explored, coals, bone remains, nails and fragments from a ceramic vessel were unearthed.  The spot where the remains were found this summer appears to correspond to a site described by Yakov Yurovsky, the leader of the family's killers, said Sergei Pogorelov, deputy head of the archaeological research department at a regional center for the preservation of historical and cultural monuments in Yekaterinburg.

The deputy director of the Center of protection and use of the cultural heritage of Sverdlovsk, Andreï Grigoriev, told  journalists that the researches had begun after the discovery of archival documents.

" I learnt that the former regional archives of the Communist Party received documents speaking about the murder of the imperial family and about a fruitless attempt to hide corpses ", clarified Mr Grigoriev.

These documents had allowed the specialists to establish the place where the tsarevich Alexis and the grand duchess Marie would have been buried. Following the search organized on a site of 100 square meters, the researchers had discovered the remains of human bodies, bullets, fragments of wooden boxes and fragments of ceramic which, according to preliminary estimations, represented fragments of amphoras used to hold some acid.

an area of 100 square meters was laid out for further investigation.  The work was carried out according to archeological methods, with the use of drainage trenches.  As a result of this exploration, a large spot of coal was exposed.  Upon further examination, this spot was determined to be T-shaped.  After removing the layer of coal, the shapes and sizes of two overlying pits became evident in the subsoil.

    An area discovered along the Old Koptyaki Road presented double bonfire sites, spread between pits, which contained bone remains in various degrees of preservation and condition; bullets; iron nails and angles, fragments of a ceramic vessel and other objects.

•    Initial anthropological analysis determined that the bone remains were human, subjected to varying forms of destruction – including burning.  The bones belong to two young individuals – a young man between the ages of 10-13 years, and a young woman about 18-23.

•    Ceramic vessel fragments are identical to those found in the original burial site found in 1991, and appear to be fragments from ceramic amphorae containing Japanese sulfuric acid. Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.

•    Iron angles and nails, apparently, appear to have held together the wooden crates containing the vessels with the sulfuric acid.

•    The metal jacket bullets are of different calibers, from cartridges for short-barreled firearms.  Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies discovered in  1991.

The Forensic Director of Medicine of Sverdlovsk Mr Nevoline clarified that the forensic scientists had also received seven fragments of teeth, three bullets of a weapon with short standard cannon and a fragment of fabric of garment.
 G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning in 1918. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

The three bullets also match exactly those found in the "mass grave" previously found in1991.
“The remains have been exposed to extreme heat, and the bullets were found close to the bones and must have hit the victims’ bodies,” Mr. Nevolin said
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 02, 2007, 10:33:11 PM
This is part of the formal  statement that was released by the General Procurator of the Russian Federation, August 24, 2007.
(I have separated the sentences for easy reading. Translation by Margarita Nelipa)

... 29 июля 2007 г. в яме глубиной до 60 см были обнаружены зубы, фрагменты черепных крышек, костей таза, ребер и трубчатых костей двух человек.

Там же находились 3 пули, часть разбитого керамического сосуда с глазурью, большое количество древесного угля и мелких сгоревших частиц костной ткани. На фрагментах черепных крышек имеются повреждения, внешне похожие на огнестрельные.

Все кости имеют признаки обгорания и воздействия на них агрессивных веществ.


... On 29 July in a pit at a depth of up to 60 cm. were discovered teeth, skull cap fragments, pelvic bones, ribs and the tubular bones of two persons.

In the same place were found 3 bullets, a segment from a broken ceramic vessel with glaze, a large quantity of charcoal and small charred bone tissue fragments. On the skull cap fragments there are injuries, externally resembling firearms.

All the bones have signs of burning and influences on them from aggressive forces.


Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 02, 2007, 11:06:02 PM
Adding to the list of items found at the excavation site in July, 2007, I am able to confirm the following:

There were 7 human teeth,

один фрагмент ткани одежды (one fragment of fabric from clothing).

Using a metal detector the very first object that was found was a bullet.

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: dolgoruky18 on September 03, 2007, 01:01:14 AM
Thank you Ms Nelipa,

The word "coal" puzzled me. Now I see that that it was "charcoal". This makes much more sense.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 03, 2007, 02:22:52 AM
It should be generously acknowledged that a local resident from Ekaterinburg, Леонид Вохмяков (Leonid Vokhmyakov) was the first person to discover the skeletal remains.

The first skeletal bone he found was a juvenile pelvic bone.

Leonid Vokhmyakov (on the right) and Sergei Plotnikov

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Ekaterinburgarcheologists-1.jpg)


Another view of the location:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgFindingsIV.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 03, 2007, 02:38:16 AM
Presenting some of the images into one collection for the interest of Alexander Palace Forum members:

Three spent bullets

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/ekaterinburgthreebullets.jpg)

A few of the charred bone fragments + one nail

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgFindingsIII.jpg)

Two of the three skull fragments

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/SkullFragment.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on September 03, 2007, 02:29:52 PM
Moscow, August 31, Interfax - Ivan Plotnikov, a scholar from the Urals who wrote a monograph entitled Historical Truth. The Death of the Royal Family, is convinced that the remains discovered recently in Porosyonkov Log are those of Nicholas II’s children, Crown Prince Alexey and Princess Maria.

In his interview with the Rossijskaya Gazeta daily published on Friday, Plotnikov related that examining many years ago the cell of the regional museum located across the street from the Ipatyev’s house, he found photographs made in the Porosyonkov Log. One of them shows Pyotr Yermakov, one of the executers, standing on the footbridge where the supposed remains of the nine members of the royal family were to be found later.

“There is a white shred on the photograph marking some place and it is written ungrammatically in his (Yermakov’s) handwriting on its reversed side: ‘This is the place wherein the romanovs are plant’. At that very moment I figured out that the search should start from that place”, the historian said.

He also said there are ‘at least three reliable sources’ which prove that ‘all the bodies were buried in the same Porosyonkov Log’.

‘These are the so-called Yurovsky’s Note written in 1920, his memoirs of 1922 and the shorthand record of his address to a Bolshevik meeting in 1934. All the three evidences essentially suggest the same’, Plotnikov believes.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3566
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: genrail1 on September 03, 2007, 06:28:35 PM
I hope we're not going back to the foolish and evil name Sverdlovsk for Ekaterinburg...

J. Kirchanski
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on September 03, 2007, 06:33:30 PM
I suggest we not have that discussion here. This is for the specific information about the discovery so that all the information is in one place that everyone can find easily.

These place names are taken directly from the Russian Press releases, take the discussion up with them. It is not our place to change a word of what the Russians release.

FA
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 04, 2007, 12:59:19 AM
Monday, August 3, 2007 [Ekaterinburg local time]

The Senior Moscow Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev, who is directing the course of this second investigation was met at the Ekaterinburg airport last night (Monday, Ekaterinburg local time) by the Head of the Ekaterinburg Forensic Bureau, Nikolai Nevolin who accepted custody of the 1991 excavation tissue samples. All these samples are now safely secured.

Samples were received in one single, labelled, plastic package that remained sealed. The tissue samples belonged to Nikolai II, Alexandra Fedorovna and three of their daughters + those of the staff who died with them. The handover and storage has been filmed.

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 05, 2007, 12:23:23 AM
A few images from Russian TV news service Vesti, Ekaterinburg, August 3, 2007:

Procurator Vladimir Soloviev (right) and Head of the Ekaterinburg Forensic Bureau Nikolai Nevolin

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/SolovievNevolin1991samples.jpg)

Nevolin placing the hermetically sealed package containing the 1991 Ekaterinburg samples into cold storage

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Ekaterinburgsamples1storage.jpg)

The first investigations will be conducted at the Sverdlovsk regional Forensic Bureau where specialists will first determine the condition of all the 2007 bone fragments. They will also then assess whether the DNA has been preserved adequately, in order to conduct their genetic assays.

Forensic investigations will commence after the appointed Russian anthroplogical experts will meet in Ekaterinburg next week.

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 05, 2007, 10:16:48 PM
I hope we're not going back to the foolish and evil name Sverdlovsk for Ekaterinburg...

J. Kirchanski

Sverdlovsk, in addition to being the name of a Bolshevik leader and the former name of the city of Ekaterinburg, is still the name of the oblast (state, or province) of the Russian Federation which encompasses the City of Ekaterinburg. It is the proper name for the Oblast.

There are many place names which are named for people who did evil things.

This thread is intended to be a FAQ, not a discussion of the discovery.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 07, 2007, 06:14:42 PM
CORRECTION:

In my two postings above the dates should read September 3, 2007.

My sincere apologies for this error.

Margarita

Monday, August 3, 2007 [Ekaterinburg local time]

A few images from Russian TV news service Vesti, Ekaterinburg, August 3, 2007:

Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 18, 2007, 07:06:13 PM
On September 18, 2007 the Senior Moscow Procurator (Criminalistics) Vladimir Soloviev announced the list of 12 specialists who have formed the Team of Experts who will examine the 2007 Eketerinburg excavation remains.

They are:

1. Nikolai Nevolin * [Николай НЕВОЛИН] - Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau. 

2. Vladimir Gromov * [Владимир ГРОМОВ] - Assistant Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau.

3. Sergei Vasiliev * [Сергей ВАСИЛЬЕВ] - Head of the Anthropological Institute. Member of the Russian Academy of Science.

4. Victor Zvyagin * [Виктор ЗВЯГИН] - Director of "Roszdrava" Russian Center of Forensic Medicine. Consultant to the Forensic Medical Laboratory of the Russian Federation in Rostov-on-Don for the identificaton of military corpses who had served in the Chechen Republic.

5. Alexander Zubov * [Александр ЗУБОВ] - senior scientist of the Ethnology and Anthropology Institute. Member of the Russian Academy of Science.

6. Sergei Nikitin * [Сергей НИКИТИН] - Chief forensic specialist of the Moscow Bureau of Forensic Medicine.

7. Gurgen Pashinyan * [Гурген ПАШИНЯН] - Forensic stomatological expert.

8. Tatyana Popova [Татьяна ПОПОВА] - Doctorate in Forensic Medicine and Medical Law of the Moscow State Medico-stomatological University.

9. Dmitrii Razhaev [Дмитрий РАЖАЕВ] - Senior scientist of the Archaelogy and History Institute.

10. Evgenii Tuchuk * [Евгений ТУЧИК] - Professor of Forensic Medicine and Medical Law of the Moscow State Medico-stomatological University.

11. Rudolph Chemekov [Рудольф ЧЕМЕКОВ] - Assistant Professor of anesthesiology and stomatology.

12. Anthony Falsetti * [Антонии ФАЛСЕТТИ] - Adjunct Professor of Anthropology, University of Florida. Member of the American Board of Forensic and American Academy of Forensic Sciences of Anthropology.

Peter Sarandinaki the Director of the SEARCH Foundation liased and organized for Anthony Falsetti to be the international member of the Team of 12 Experts.

N. B. Star (*) denotes that the investigator was involved with the 1991 Ekaterinburg remains.


Margarita Nelipa  
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 18, 2007, 08:16:07 PM
The Senior Procurator, Vladimir Soloviev has announced that the following scientific examinations will take place on the 2007 Ekaterinburg excavation remains by the Team of 12 Experts:

Firstly, the anthropological and stomatological expertizing will take place.

Followed up by the Criminalistic evaluation of:

1. the bullets,
2. the cloth fragments.

3. Compare these objects with those found in 1991.

4. Examine the charred fragments of wood from the fire.

Initial questions which the experts will evaluate will be:

1. How many individuals?
2. The sex?
3. The age?
4. Are there any traces of injury to the bones? -> If there are, what is the source of the injury(ies)? type of injury(ies)?
                                                                  -> Was(were) the injury(ies) sustained during life or postmortem?

The next phase of the Soloviev Inquiry will be genetic profiling.

A direct comparison will be made using the 2007 bone samples with the DNA profiles from the 1991 bone samples.

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 19, 2007, 04:31:26 PM
Thank you, what an impressive list of experts and credentials. Now that we know their names, anyone who suggests they will be faking or tampering the results is openly insulting them and making accusations.

Rob has asked that this topic not be used for discussion of the discovered remains. It is a FAQ. Please discuss elsewhere.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on September 19, 2007, 04:51:15 PM
Thank you Lisa. I have removed the OT postings.  Again, this thread is ONLY for official publications or announcements of the details of the investigation and the analysis of the remains. DISCUSSION about them is to occur in other threads, please.

Thank you for your cooperation.

FA
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 28, 2007, 07:23:17 AM
This morning, Friday September 28, 2007 a media Conference was given by the assistant Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau Vladimir Gromov. He announced the preliminary findings of the 2007 excavation remains.

They examined the 6 whole teeth and one tooth fragment. Silver amalgam fillings were found embedded in these teeth analogous with the dental work of the teeth identified in the 1991 excavation remains.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Ekaterinburgteeth.jpg)

In addition, of the 48 bone fragments, 29 are not able to be identified at this stage. Many bone fragments are less than one gram in weight. Traces of gunshot wounds were also found on bone fragments.

These initial macroscopic observations are the first of many investigations to be undertaken in the next several months.

In addition Gromov has also announced that negotiations are proceeding with international DNA specialists to participate later in this Inquiry.

Margarita Nelipa  
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on September 28, 2007, 08:54:55 AM
The Russian Church has announced it will re-examine its stance on the remains of the Imperial Family if these forensic analysis identifies them as those of the missing children, see paragraph below I have highlighed:

Bones Likely Belong to Czar's Children, Experts Say (Update1)
2007-09-28 08:43 (New York)


    (Adds date of DNA analysis in third paragraph.)

By Henry Meyer
    Sept. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Forensics experts in the Urals city
of Yekaterinburg said bone fragments unearthed in July probably
belong to the missing son and daughter of Russia's last czar,
Nicholas II.
    Experts concluded ``with a high degree of probability'' that
the bones belong to Czarevich Alexei, heir to the Russian throne,
and Grand Duchess Maria, Vladimir Gromov, deputy head of the
Sverdlovsk Regional Bureau for Forensic Medical Analysis, which
examined the remains, said by telephone today.
    Forensic specialists will begin DNA testing next month to
establish the identity of the remains with greater certainty.
Gromov said the condition of the bone fragments, badly damaged by
extreme heat and possibly acid, will make this difficult.
    Experts are comparing the bone fragments against samples
taken from nine skeletons uncovered in 1991, including those of
the czar, his wife Alexandra and three daughters.
    The latest bones were discovered near Yekaterinburg, where
the royal family was executed by a Bolshevik firing squad in
1918.
    A preliminary analysis showed that the remains are
consistent with the age and gender of the czar's hemophiliac son,
Alexei, and daughter Maria, who were born in 1904 and 1899
respectively, Gromov said.
    Nicholas II ruled Russia from 1894 until he was forced to
abdicate in March 1917. The family was later sent to the Urals by
the provisional government and held after the Bolsheviks seized
power in October 1917.
    Most of the bodies were soaked in acid and dumped down a
mine shaft, while those of Alexei and one of his sisters were
burned and buried, according to notes by Yakov Yurovsky, the
leader of the family's killers.

                         Remains Exhumed

    Part of the royal remains were exhumed in 1991 and reburied
in the former imperial capital, St. Petersburg, in 1998.
    The Russian Orthodox Church, refuting the scientific
findings, doesn't recognize the remains buried in St. Petersburg
as those of the royal family and refused to attend the reburial.
   Archpriest Georgy Mitrofanov, a member of the church's
canonization committee, said today the church was prepared to
review its stance on the bones found in 1991 if the latest
remains are found to be authentic, Interfax reported.
    U.S. and possibly Canadian experts will assist in the
continuing forensic work, Gromov said.

--Editors: Henry (jjd/jjd)

To contact the reporter on this story:
Henry Meyer in Moscow at +7-495-771 7729 or
hmeyer4@bloomberg.net

To contact the editors responsible for this story:
Edward Buckle at +49-30-70010-6225 or
ebuckle@bloomberg.net;
John Deane at +44-20-7673-2285 or
Jdeane3@bloomberg.net.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: dmitri on September 28, 2007, 09:38:46 AM
Thanks Margarita and Rob for the updates. It all seems to be falling very much into place. It's really quite fascinating. We live in interesting times as the old Chinese proverb goes.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Annie on September 28, 2007, 12:28:22 PM
This is wonderful news! If the bones are matched to the others, and even the church accepts them, I hope that will finally be the end of the story of what happened to the family.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 28, 2007, 01:18:35 PM
A gentle reminder to our members - this particular topic is intended to be a FAQ and not a place for discussion. I can understand the news of the possible resolution of this case may have caused some to forget this momentarily. I do ask that everyone place their comments on these developments on other topic areas.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 28, 2007, 09:10:33 PM
A few clearer images of two of the teeth as shown on one Russian TV news service today September 29, 2007:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/EkaterinburgmolarII.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Ekaterinburgtoothsept.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on September 28, 2007, 09:15:31 PM
An image taken from Russian TV news showing one of the bones being examined. The charring effect can be readily seen.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Ekaterinburglongbone.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on October 02, 2007, 09:31:15 AM
STOP AND I MEAN STOP POSTING COMMENTS OF ANY KIND IN THIS THREAD. THIS THREAD IS STRICTLY FOR THE NEWS RELEASES REGARDING THE REMAINS.

IF YOU POSTERS, SUCH AS NOBLE DESCENDANTS PARTICULARLY, DO NOT STOP THIS BEHAVIOR I WILL LOCK THE THREAD AND WILL FORCE POSTERS WHO HAVE NEWS UPDATES WHICH BELONG HERE TO REQUIRE ME TO UNLOCK THIS THREAD TO POST, WHICH WILL DELAY THE AVAILABILITY OF THE INFORMATION TO ALL THE USERS.

IS THIS CLEAR??
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on October 03, 2007, 08:47:50 PM
October 3, 2007

[ITAR-TASS Urals]

Today Nikolai Nevolin [Николай Неволин], the Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau has announced that Professor Evgenii Rogaev [Евгений Рогаев ] from Moscow University has been appointed to conduct molecular genetics assays on the 2007 excavation remains. He will arrive in Ekaterinburg at the end of October.

Professor Rogaev’s appointment has been endorsed by representatives of the Romanov Family and the Russian Orthodox Church.

Professor Rogaev was one of the principle Russian geneticists who was part of the First Soloviev Commission in 1998 and a leading expert in the field of human medical genetics.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

In addition the following information has also been announced regarding the 2007 excavation remains:

• 5 bone fragments may belong to a female whose skeleton had almost fully developed.
• 4 bone fragments may belong to a male.
• The tooth fragments may belong to a male, 11 to 12 years of age.

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Annie on October 05, 2007, 10:25:35 AM
Here is a video on the find from National Geographic:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/10/071001-tsar-video.html
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: AGRBear on October 12, 2007, 05:04:38 PM
1 Oct 2007
Russian Newspaper:  Intefax

Interfax wrote  article on the new discovery  in which  the following is a part:

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/HeightsRedLineInterfax1-1.jpg)

Since I don't read Russian,   I have been  told that this tells us that  the Russians are  indicating  the remains of the  female, Marie,  estimated height is 160 cm = 5 feet 2.5 inches  tall and that the male, Alexei,  estimated height  is  142-143 cm  or 143=  4 feet 6.9 inches  tall. 

I will take my remarks to the How Tall Was Alexei When He Died  thread.

AGRBear
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on October 13, 2007, 01:17:36 AM
October 12, 2007

Ballistics Results on the Ekaterinburg 2007 remains

Senior Procurator Vladimir Soloviev, who heads the Second Ekaterinburg Inquiry has announced the following ballistics results:

1.  The remains show evidence that two Browning revolvers were used. One weapon was a 1903 issue. The second weapon was a 1900 issue.

2.  The bullets that were discharged from these two weapons were the same as those that were found at the 1990's excavation location which contained the remains of Nikolai II, Alexandra Fedorovna and the other members of the Imperial Family + staff.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Ekaterinburg2007-craniumwithbulleth.jpg)

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 08, 2007, 05:10:56 AM
The following statements (provided in part) by Prince Nikolai Romanov were published by Izvestya and Interfax today, Thursday 8 December, 2007 regarding the Ekaterinburg excavation remains:

http://www.izvestia.ru/hystory/article3110067/   and   http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=3905 

Nikolay Romanov believes in miracle of discovering the tsar's family relics near Yekaterinburg but calls experts not to do hasty conclusions

Moscow, November 8, Interfax - Tsar Nicolas II's grand-nephew Nikolay Romanovich Romanov is truly convinced that the children's relics discovered near Yekaterinburg in summer this year belong to prince Alexy and grand princess Maria.

"Certainly, it is miracle. I believe with all my heart that it is just so: The miracle has happened, and we will get the comprehensive witnesses that the tsar's son and daughter have been discovered," Romanov stated in the interview to the Izvestia newspaper published on Thursday.

At the same time he called experts to proceed identifications of the relics very thoroughly and not to do hasty conclusions.

"The most important thing is to get the true confidence. Either yes or no. There is no need to hurry. Now I have fully confidence to the investigation as I had it in 1998. We are ready to wait as much time as it may be required" - the representative of the Romanovs' House.

Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 08, 2007, 09:41:34 PM
September 8, 2007

Senior Procurator Vladimir Soloviev has just announced that the Genetic Testing on the 2007 excavation remains will commence on Sunday, November 11, with the arrival of experts to Moscow from the United States and Ekaterinburg.

The testing will be conducted in Moscow, Ekaterinburg and at the U. S. Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL). New methodologies will employed which have not been performed inside Russia to date.

Soloviev added that AFDIL has expertise in identifying the remains of military personnel from WWI and WWII, which involves the extraction of DNA from highly degraded samples that are compromised by their lack of adequate preservation.

Soloviev stressed that the 2007 samples have been subjected to fire and have deteriorated to the point that their preservation has been poor.

It was initially critical in the early stages of this Inquiry that the Russian anthropologists had to determine the approximate age of the remains, in that they did not belong to say "two males aged 40 yrs".

The anthropologists have assessed that the remains are compatible with those of a young male, 12-14 yrs of age, and a female aged between 17-18 years.

Soloviev concluded by declaring that his Inquiry will also examine documents that has recently surfaced which may provide details as to "who accepted the order to conduct the shootings and how it all happened". In his opinion "the image of the tragedy will not change".

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 12, 2007, 03:44:18 AM
Monday November 12, 2007

Announcing that the American team of investigators has arrived in Ekaterinburg.

Presently the AFDIL genetist is examining the remains at the Sverdlovsk regional Forensic Medicine Bureau .

Margarita
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 12, 2007, 06:23:42 AM
Monday November 12, 2007

The following information has just been publicy announced by Nikolai Nevolin of the Sverdlovsk Regional Forensic Medicine Laboratory:

The parallel DNA tests will be conducted at:

1. The Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Laboratory,
2. The U.S. Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL) and
2. The Vavilov Institute of General Genetics in Moscow.

"Chief of the Research Section at AFDIL, Dr Michael Coble has examined materials collected from the grave and said that he might be able to identify the DNA and conduct identification studies."

"Dr Coble has warned that the Pentagon laboratory could have limitations."

DNA testing is expected to commence in January, 2008.

Margarita
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 12, 2007, 10:06:03 PM
November 12, 2007 images (courtesy of Vesti television)

L. to R. Senior Procurator Soloviev, Vladimir Gromov and Anthony Falsetti examining the samples

Screen caption reads: Expertizing the remains of the Romanov Family will be conducted for the fourth time

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/November12EkaterinburgII.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/November12EkaterinburgI.jpg)

Anthony Falsetti speaking at the media conference at the Sverdlovsk Regional Forensic Medicine Laboratory

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/November12EkaterinburgIVFalsetti.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 12, 2007, 10:53:28 PM
November 12, 2007

Dr Anthony Falsetti has declared the following via Channel 5 (St. Petersburg):

Безусловно присутствует деградация материала и отрицательное воздействие факторов, которые были в момент смерти и после смерти. Тем не менее этого материала достаточно чтобы сказать, что это останки двух человек. Причем один из них подросток, а другой молодая женщина. И с этим материалом можно работать дальше.

"Certainly there is degradation of the material and negative influential factors which were present during the moment of death and after death. Nevertheless from this material it is enough to tell, that these are the remains of two persons. One of them being a teenager, the other being a young woman. And with this material it is possible to work further."

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Comments by the Channel 5 correspondent:

Окончательные выводы можно будет сделать только после экспертизы ДНК. Она пройдет сначала в США, затем, возможно, и в одной из европейских стран. По словам специалистов, работа будет завершена только в следующем году.

"Final conclusions can be made only after expertizing the DNA. It shall be conducted first in the USA, then, probably, and in one of the European countries. According to experts, work will be completed only next year".

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 13, 2007, 12:08:55 AM




(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/_Dve_svechi.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 13, 2007, 07:59:10 PM
Tuesday, November 13, 2007

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/November12EkaterinburgIII.jpg)

Following a press conferance at the Sverdlovsk Regional Forensic Medicine Laboratory the following has been announced:

Nikolai Nevolin (Director of the SRFL) has decalred that there will be four independent genetic expertizing conducted,

a. At the Sverdlovsk Regional Forensic Medicine Laboratory,
b. At the Vavilov Institute of General Genetics in Moscow,   also abroad at
c. The U.S. Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory (AFDIL)  and
b. In Great Britain (negotiations are proceeding).

to be continued ...

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 13, 2007, 08:11:52 PM
Dr Michael Coble has declared:

"From the presented remains it is possible to extract samples, in order to conduct genetic analysis".

"If during the conduct of the first experitzing  in 1991 we had 4 genetic markers, at the present moment the standard genetic analysis includes 16 markers. Thus, we can obtain more precise results."

"At the first stage the American experts will extract the DNA, then they will conduct genetic expertizing, which may take a number of weeks. Then we shall compare it to the control DNA, which we have. ... research may take from a number of weeks to a number of months."

"At the conclusion the results of the molecular-genetic research by experts from Great Britain, Russia and in the US will are compared and a conclusion drawn if the remains found in the vicinity of Ekaterinburg, belong to members of Romanov imperial family. Such comparisons are planned to be performed at the beginning of 2008."

to be continued ...

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 13, 2007, 08:18:45 PM
Russian text in Dr Coble's words

По словам Кобла


«Из представленных останков можно выделить образцы, чтобы провести генетический анализ»

«Если при проведении первой экспертизы в 1991 году у нас было 4 генетических маркера, то в настоящий момент стандартный генетический анализ включает 16 маркеров. Таким образом, мы можем получать гораздо более точные результаты.»

«Hа первом этапе американские эксперты извлекут ДНК, затем проведут генетические экспертизы, которые могут занять несколько недель. Затем сравним с эталоном ДНК, который имеется у нас. ... исследования могут занять от нескольких недель до нескольких месяцев.»

«В заключении итоги молекулярно-генетических исследований экспертов из Великобритании, России и США будут сравнены и сделан вывод о принадлежности останков, найденных в окрестностях Екатеринбурга, членам царской семьи Романовых. Такое сравнение планируется провести в начале 2008 года.»

to be continued ...
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 13, 2007, 08:37:13 PM
Anthony Falsetti stated:

«состояние костей разное - от хорошего до не очень хорошего.»

"The condition of the bones varies - from good to very good."

Senior Procurator Vladimir Soloviev has declared:

«В 1998 г. мы сделали выпилы кусочков костей, где наверняка есть ДНК. ... Это делалось под эгидой Генеральной прокуратуры и сохранялось в Москве. Когда понадобилось я привез это все в Екатеринбург. И отсюда я их забирать не буду - они останутся в Екатеринбурге. Если церковь признает их святыми мощами, то, я, думаю, они [церковь] будут хранить.»

"In 1998 we have made sawn slices of bones, where most likely there is DNA. ... It was done under the aegis of the General Procurator and preserved in Moscow. When needed I brought all of this to Ekaterinburg. And from here I shall not take away them - they will remain in Ekaterinburg. If the church recognizes them as sacred relics, then, I, think, they [the church] shall have custody."

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 13, 2007, 10:08:04 PM
The Press conference held at 16.00 local time on November 13, 2007 was held at the Ekaterinburg Interfax-Ural agency. It was titled: 

 «Результаты совместного российско-американского исследования костных останков, обнаруженных в районе старой Коптяковской дороги в июле 2007 года».

"Results of the joint Russian-American investigations of the skeletal remains found in the vicinity of the Staroi Koptyakovskoi Road in July, 2007"  

Both Russian and American investigators participatated at the press conference. From the Russian side: the Director of the Forensic Medicine Bureau Nikolai Nevolin and anthropologist Dmitri Razhev.

From the American side: the genetisist Dr Michael Coble, anthropologist Anthony Falsetti and Peter Sarandinaki of the SEARCH Foundation.

(Please note: only part of the press conference has been posted here today.)

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 14, 2007, 03:30:06 AM

Nikolai Nevolin, Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau at the Interfax Press Conference  


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/Nevolinpressconference12Nov.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 14, 2007, 04:41:09 AM
Wednesday, November 14, 2007

Nikolai Nevolin, Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau has addressed the rumors that coins from the 1930's and 1940's were allegedly found at the excavation site.

«Монеты были не рядом с останками, как скажем, пули [рядом с костями, выпущенные из браунинга - таким оружием пользовались в 1918-ом году, кроме того такими же пулями были расстреляны остальные члены царской семьи, останки которых нашли в 1991-м»].

"The coins were not next to the remains, like say, the bullets [which were next to the bones, discharged from a Browning - a weapon that was used in 1918, besides that similar bullets had executed the rest of the members of the imperial family whose remains were found in 1991"].

«Монеты от захоронения лежали на расстоянии около полутора метров. Скорее всего, кто-то их обронил десятилетием позже».

"The coins were lying at a distance of one and half meters from the excavation site.  Most likely, someone has dropped them decades later".

The coins found 1½ meters away from the excavation site

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/b82eda80.jpg)

Translation and emphasis by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 14, 2007, 05:49:53 AM
CORRECTION with apologies

Anthony Falsetti stated:

"The condition of the bones varies - from good to not very good".

Anthony Falsetti stated:

«состояние костей разное - от хорошего до не очень хорошего.»

"The condition of the bones varies - from good to very good."

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on November 15, 2007, 06:25:40 PM
Thursday, 15 November, 2007

Senior Procurator Vladimir Soloviev has stated the following:

«Мы никуда не спешим. Для нас важнее всего не ошибиться. Именно поэтому мы будем тщательно изучать все, что только можно изучить, а потом сравним результаты этой совместной работы. Сейчас идет большая судебно-баллистическая экспертиза, скоро начнутся серьезные исследования в уральском институте археологии. На все это потребуется время. Речь идет о нескольких месяцах. Что же касается продолжения раскопок на старой Коптяковской дороге, я бы предложил властям области организовать дальнейшее комплексное изучение этой местности».

"We are in no hurry. For us the most important is to not be mistaken. For this reason we shall carefully study everything, that is possible to study, and then we shall compare results of this joint work. Presently there is an extensive judicial-ballistic expertization being undertaken, soon earnest investigations at the Ural Institute of Archeology shall begin. For all, this time is required. It is a question of several months. As for the continuation of excavation on Staroi Koptyakovskoi Road, I would propose to the regional authorities to organize further intense studies of this location".

Michael Coble (L) and Anthony Falsetti at a press conference

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/MichaelCoble_AnthonyFalsetti_Ekater.jpg)

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on January 09, 2008, 03:37:55 PM
Suspected remains of Russian tsar's children being studied

Yekaterinburg, January 9, Interfax - Forensic scientists have begun tests to identify fragments of what are suspected to have been the bodies of the son and one of the daughters of last Russian tsar Nicholas II who, with the rest of the royal family, were put to death by a Bolshevik firing squad in July 1918.

The fragments were found near the Staraya Koptyakovskaya Road outside Yekaterinburg and bore traces of homicide. Initial investigations suggested there were parts of the bodies of a boy aged between 10 and 14 and a woman of 20.

Yekaterinburg is the city in the Ural area where Nicholas, his family and part of their retinue were executed.

The Sverdlovsk Regional Bureau for Forensic Medical Tests and a lab in Moscow are trying to find out whether the remains are those of Alexey, who was heir to the throne, and Maria.

"I expect [the findings of the investigations to come] by the end of January or the start of February," Nikolay Nevolin, head of the Sverdlovsk Bureau, told Interfax.

"Tests started in December at our lab and in Moscow. When the tests in Russia are over, there will be confirmation tests at one of the foreign labs, one the Prosecutor General's Office chooses," Nevolin said.

It has been possible to obtain DNA samples from the remains, he said.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on January 22, 2008, 09:45:52 AM
With thanks to Sarai:

Remains found in Urals likely to belong to tsar's children
   
15:21    |    22/ 01/ 2008


YEKATERINBURG, January 22 (RIA Novosti) - Preliminary results of genetic analysis carried out on the remains discovered in the Urals in July 2007 show they belong to the last Russian tsar's children, the region's chief forensic expert said Tuesday.

The remains of a boy and a young woman were exhumed near Yekaterinburg, where Tsar Nickolas II, his wife, their four daughters and son, and several servants, were shot by the Bolsheviks in 1918. They are believed to belong to Nicholas II's son and heir Alexis, and daughter Maria.

"Tests conducted in Yekaterinburg and Moscow allowed DNA to be extracted from the bones, which proved positive," Nikolai Nevolin said. "Once the genetic analysis has been completed in Russia, its results will be compared with test results from foreign experts."

Nevolin said the final results would be published in April or May of 2008.

Initial studies revealed that the remains belong to a boy of about 12-14 years of age and a 16-18-year-old girl.

The tsar and his family members' remains were also discovered near Yekaterinburg in 1991. They were authenticated and buried in the St. Peter and Paul Cathedral in St. Petersburg in 1998, although forensic examination results have been challenged since then.

The Russian Orthodox Church, which has canonized the murdered Romanov family, called the 1998 burial "a political show."

Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on January 24, 2008, 04:04:46 AM
Wednesday January 23, 2007

Nikolai Nevolin, the Director of the Sverdlovsk Regional Forensic Medicine Laboratory released the  following information [in part] regarding the Interfax and a few other reports which appeared on the internet over the last day regarding the DNA testing of the Ekaterinburg remains.

« ... никаких официальных заявлений о том, что предварительные анализы подтвердили близкое родство юноши и девушки, чьи останки были найдены на старой Коптяковской дороге, и Николая II, я ни вчера, ни когда-либо раньше не делал.»  

"... no official announcements about  the preliminary analyses that have confirmed a close relationship of the youth and the girl, with Nikolai II, whose remains have been found on Staraya Koptyakovskaya Road, were made by me, either yesterday, or any time earlier."   

«Как вы знаете, антропологическая экспертиза прошла и началась генетическая. Генетические исследования сейчас продолжаются в российских лабораториях. Из части костных фрагментов удалось выделить ДНК.  Как только работу закончат наши ученые, исследования начнутся в авторитетной зарубежной лаборатории.»  

"As you know, anthroplogical expertizing was done and the genetic [expertizing] has begun. The genetic investigations are now continuing in the Russian laboratories. It was possible to extract DNA from the bone fragments. As soon as the work is completed by our scientists, investigations shall begin in accredited foreign laboratories."

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on January 24, 2008, 10:15:23 AM
It seems I must remind users that this FAQ thread is NOT FOR COMMENTS and is reserved only for the publication of the progress of the investigation.  There are plenty of other threads for your comments on the news reports.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on January 24, 2008, 07:29:19 PM
Thursday January 24, 2008

The following statement [in part] was made several hours ago by Nikolai Nevolin in the Russian media:

«Я понимаю интерес общественности к этому вопросу. Но раньше апреля-мая никаких итогов исследования не будет. Мы работаем. Никуда не торопимся и вовсе не горим желанием приурочить окончание экспертизы к какой-нибудь громкой дате.»  

"I understand the public interest to this question. But before April-May no research results will be forthcoming. We are working. We are not in any hurry and we do not burn with desire to time the conclusion of the expertizing on some celebrated date."

Translation by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Annie on February 16, 2008, 01:44:43 PM
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,10916.0.html

Aug. 29, 2007, article from an Ekaterinburg newspaper, sent by a member who has a friend in Ekaterinburg (who translated the article) It contains very good information about the find, and may be helpful to those who have questions about the bones and the people who discovered and worked with them.

Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Holly on February 19, 2008, 11:29:39 AM
An article from August in a Canadian newspaper from Keegan Young. It has some very good information.

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4241/scan10113vp5.th.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan10113vp5.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on April 02, 2008, 07:40:44 PM
The following was announced (in part) in Russia on the evening of April 1, 2008:

"Today the Armed Forces Identification Laboratory in the USA could not answer the question that was sent from Russia: whether the remains found last summer near Ekaterinburg belonged to Nikolai II's children.

Following the difficulty of the work the American geneticists have stated that the extraction of DNA from the obtained samples was not possible.

The investigation will be continued, possibly next week. New fragments for DNA analysis will be delivered to the military laboratory in Washington.

The problem is that of the 46 fragments of human remains only one third are suitable. From this third 3 bone fragments were delivered to America. Now the American scientists say that these fragments are not suitable for research, as they are too small and in bad condition.

In spite of the result from the University of Massachusetts, in the near future the scientists at the Armed Forces Laboratory in the U. S. A. and the Russian researchers at the Sverdlovsk Institute will conclude their work.

After that, fragments of the remains will be sent to London for examination by English experts. Only after that, if opinions of the scientists will coincide, will it be possible to end the infinite myths, disputes and legends about destiny of Tsetsarevich Alexei and his sister Grand Duchess Mariya."

Translation and information provided by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  

Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Alixz on April 03, 2008, 06:31:12 PM
Margarita:

I am confused by a part of your posting.

The following was announced (in part) in Russia on the evening of April 1, 2008:

In spite of the result from the University of Massachusetts, in the near future the scientists at the Armed Forces Laboratory in the U. S. A. and the Russian researchers at the Sverdlovsk Institute will conclude their work.

Translation and information provided by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  



Could you explain what it means?  In spite of??
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on April 04, 2008, 12:32:44 AM
Margarita:

I am confused by a part of your posting.

The following was announced (in part) in Russia on the evening of April 1, 2008:

In spite of the result from the University of Massachusetts, in the near future the scientists at the Armed Forces Laboratory in the U. S. A. and the Russian researchers at the Sverdlovsk Institute will conclude their work.

Translation and information provided by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  



Could you explain what it means?  In spite of??

Is the word "irrespective" clearer for you?

Margarita
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: halen on April 04, 2008, 11:46:47 AM
I can't say that irrespectiveclears up the confusion for me. I have been wondering what results are from the U of M and how do they differ (if they do differ) from the Armed Forces Laboratory.

Thanks,

Louise
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 04, 2008, 01:25:02 PM
I don't think UMass has the DNA results yet, I believe they only were able to extract viable DNA from the samples that they had (unlike Armed Forces Lab), but they didn't sequence it yet. 

http://www.telegram.com/article/20080404/NEWS/804040614/1116
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: royaltybuff on April 04, 2008, 05:15:48 PM
From April 4

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080403/ap_on_re_us/czar_s_family
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Umjetnik on April 05, 2008, 02:33:43 PM
I find a clip on You Tube:

Scientist unable to extract DNA from remains: in Russian

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HaW7JWZw01o
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 07, 2008, 03:23:12 PM
Margarita:

I am confused by a part of your posting.

The following was announced (in part) in Russia on the evening of April 1, 2008:

In spite of the result from the University of Massachusetts, in the near future the scientists at the Armed Forces Laboratory in the U. S. A. and the Russian researchers at the Sverdlovsk Institute will conclude their work.

Translation and information provided by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  



Could you explain what it means?  In spite of??

I'll try to explain this. There are various laboratories running tests on the remains found in 2007. I gather from what I have read that of these labs, the US Armed Forces Laboratory was unable to extract DNA from their samples. Because of this, they are being sent additional samples from which they (hopefully) will be able to extract DNA. Once sequenced, all these results will be compared.

I also gather that the Russians and another US laboratory (UMass?) were able to extract DNA from their samples - so the statement means, in spite of the fact that at least two other labs were able to extract DNA from their samples, the US Armed Forces Lab was not able to do this. In spite of this, results are expected in May or June?

A little sidebar - using different labs to test from the same remains is one way scientists can be sure they have accurate results. A few years back, it was alleged by someone on this board that the British Royal Family fabricated the Victorian mtDNA sequence from the Duke of Edinburgh in order to falsely disprove Anna Anderson's identification as Anastasia. What neither the Royal Family nor the poster knew was that the Victorian mtDNA sequence was first extracted at Brown University in the US. The sample came from Princess Katherine of Yugoslavia, a maternal line descendant of QV, as is Philip. Their results, because the tests were done privately, were never published. However, Katherine's and Philip's mtDNA exactly matched, disproving that there was any fabrication by the RF or anyone else involved with the identification of the (original) Ekaterinburg remains.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on April 07, 2008, 03:50:51 PM
National Geographic Magazine will be running a small story about these remains as well in I believe the next issue to be released.  They interviewed Bob yesterday and had him fact check the story for them.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 07, 2008, 05:09:05 PM
... and another US laboratory (UMass?) were able to extract DNA from their samples

Yes, UMass.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on April 07, 2008, 06:00:15 PM
The following was announced (in part) in Russia on the evening of April 1, 2008:

"Today the Armed Forces Identification Laboratory in the USA could not answer the question that was sent from Russia: whether the remains found last summer near Ekaterinburg belonged to Nikolai II's children.

Following the difficulty of the work the American geneticists have stated that the extraction of DNA from the obtained samples was not possible.

.... Now the American scientists say that these fragments are not suitable for research, as they are too small and in bad condition.

In spite of the result from the University of Massachusetts ...."

Translation and information provided by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  

I'll try to explain this. ...

I also gather that the Russians and another US laboratory (UMass?) were able to extract DNA from their samples -

No DNA was able to be extracted from either of the 3 samples received by the University of Massachusetts.

In spite of (irrespective of) this result (at the University of Massachusetts)  the work will continue with other samples.

Trust this is more clear.

Margarita Nelipa
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 07, 2008, 07:08:09 PM
No DNA was able to be extracted from either of the 3 samples received by the University of Massachusetts.

Actually, according to this recent article from UMass site, it sounds like they were able to extract some useful DNA from their samples, unless this is just badly worded and they are actually referring to the 1990's tests...

"The delicate work proved that, indeed, useful DNA could be extracted from a very small amount of the material — a critical fact, since they wanted to preserve as much of the bone fragments as possible out of respect for the victims."


http://www.telegram.com/article/20080404/NEWS/804040614/1116
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 07, 2008, 08:37:40 PM
The following was announced (in part) in Russia on the evening of April 1, 2008:

"Today the Armed Forces Identification Laboratory in the USA could not answer the question that was sent from Russia: whether the remains found last summer near Ekaterinburg belonged to Nikolai II's children.

Following the difficulty of the work the American geneticists have stated that the extraction of DNA from the obtained samples was not possible.

.... Now the American scientists say that these fragments are not suitable for research, as they are too small and in bad condition.

In spite of the result from the University of Massachusetts ...."

Translation and information provided by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  

I'll try to explain this. ...

I also gather that the Russians and another US laboratory (UMass?) were able to extract DNA from their samples -

No DNA was able to be extracted from either of the 3 samples received by the University of Massachusetts.

In spite of (irrespective of) this result (at the University of Massachusetts)  the work will continue with other samples.

Trust this is more clear.

Margarita Nelipa

Thanks, Margarita. I appreciate your taking the time to clarify this issue.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: J_Kendrick on April 07, 2008, 09:44:13 PM
The following was announced (in part) in Russia on the evening of April 1, 2008:

"Today the Armed Forces Identification Laboratory in the USA could not answer the question that was sent from Russia: whether the remains found last summer near Ekaterinburg belonged to Nikolai II's children.

Following the difficulty of the work the American geneticists have stated that the extraction of DNA from the obtained samples was not possible.

.... Now the American scientists say that these fragments are not suitable for research, as they are too small and in bad condition.

In spite of the result from the University of Massachusetts ...."

Translation and information provided by Margarita Nelipa © [for A. P. Forum members]  

I'll try to explain this. ...

I also gather that the Russians and another US laboratory (UMass?) were able to extract DNA from their samples -

No DNA was able to be extracted from either of the 3 samples received by the University of Massachusetts.

In spite of (irrespective of) this result (at the University of Massachusetts)  the work will continue with other samples.

Trust this is more clear.

Margarita Nelipa

Thanks, Margarita. I appreciate your taking the time to clarify this issue.



There may be a misunderstanding here that needs to be corrected.

The tests being done at the AFIP and the tests being done in the lab at the University of Massachusetts are *not* the same tests.

The samples collected from Ekaterinburg in November by Dr. Anthony Falsetti from which the AFIP in Rockville, Maryland has been unable to extract DNA are not the same samples as those now being tested at the University of Massachusetts in Worcester, Massachusetts by the Russian DNA scientist Dr. Evgeny Rogaev... who is only making use of the fact that he has access to the university lab in Worcester because he works as a professor both in Moscow *and* at the University of Massachusetts.

JK
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 08, 2008, 12:28:27 PM
The tests being done at the AFIP and the tests being done in the lab at the University of Massachusetts are *not* the same tests.

Right, they are two different labs.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on April 10, 2008, 08:32:50 PM

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v676/sadbear/ImperialFamilyRomanovTercentenary.jpg)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on April 11, 2008, 09:16:52 AM
Dr. Soloviev has contacted the APTM and asked us to not publicly discuss his findings and conclusions prior to the release of his paper and announcement on the matter.  We will of course honor this request.  I apologize for any removed posts.  We will of course present his findings the moment they are made public, for review and discussion.

Thanks.
FA
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Peterhof on April 11, 2008, 10:27:28 PM
Did Dr. Soloviev give you an idea on when this would happen?
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 12, 2008, 08:30:09 AM
My guess is at least a couple of months...
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Peterhof on May 01, 2008, 01:01:11 AM
Today I saw on news TV that the scientist (actually I don't know if in the US or somewhere else) found that DNA extracted from bones are from Alexei and Maria.  Does anyone have more information on this?
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Lalee on May 01, 2008, 08:22:10 AM
I can't figure out whether one of the newly discovered remains are that of Anastasia or of Maria, because evidence changes all the time. This is truly a fascinating and difficult mystery...
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 01, 2008, 08:23:29 AM
I can't figure out whether one of the newly discovered remains are that of Anastasia or of Maria...


They will never know for sure, but does it really matter as long as everyone is accounted for?
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 01, 2008, 08:32:48 AM
National Geographic Magazine will be running a small story about these remains as well in I believe the next issue to be released. 

Will this be in the May issue?
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on May 02, 2008, 09:38:41 AM
I will remind users that this particular thread is for the publication of updated information about the discoveries. this thread is NOT for back and forth comments and discussion about the discoveries or the status. There are like five other threads on the subject for that type of discussion. Thanks.

FA
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on May 02, 2008, 08:43:15 PM
At Peter Sarandinaki's request:

UPDATE on the DNA studies of the Russian Royal Family Remains, May 1, 2008

The SEARCH Foundation, Inc. has been the coordinator of the DNA validation process for the recently-discovered remains of two possible members of the Romanoff family. 

Edward Rossel, Governor of the Ural Region of Russia, has announced his belief that the two sets of remains recently discovered on the Koptiaki Road north of Yekaterinburg are those of the Tsarevich Alexis and the Grand Duchess Maria.

Much as the SEARCH Foundation fervently wishes for this result to be proven conclusively, "we can't confirm [these results] until all the independent labs have completed testing" said Captain Peter Sarandinaki, Director of the SEARCH Foundation.

Rigorous scientific research is necessary because, as he continued, "some of [these bones] were burnt ... and work is still being done...We can't confirm [these results] until all the independent labs have completed testing." Scientific evaluation is being conducted by three world-class independent laboratories:  the US Army DNA lab in Rockville, Md., the University of Innsbruck DNA Laboratory, Austria and the Russian DNA laboratory in Moscow with a facility also at University of Massachusetts.

Captain Sarandinaki concluded that "Once these three laboratories complete their DNA testing and their results are certified by Dr. Peter Gill, from Great Britain, who did the initial DNA studies on the first set of remains, an official announcement as to the scientific findings will be made by the Most Senior Investigator for Special Cases, Vladimir Solovyev."

Captain Peter Sarandinaki,

Director of the SEARCH Foundation, Inc.

See: http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/New-Press-Release.html

Work is expected to be completed sometime in June.


Margarita Nelipa on behalf of Peter Sarandinaki
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: rgt9w on May 10, 2008, 07:38:01 PM
A couple of news segments, the first with an interview with Evgeny Rogaev.  A commercial will play first, then it will play the news segment. If you click on the screen after the commercial it will restart the commercial (FYI).

Of note, not all of the information in the first segment iis correct by the commentator, but the interview is interesting.

http://www.necn.com/Boston/New-England/Russian-murder-mystery-solved-at-Umass/1209597185.html

http://www.necn.com/Boston/World/Truth-of-the-bones-may-have-surfaced-/1209675506.html#



Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Belochka on June 24, 2008, 06:41:15 PM
Tuesday 24 June, 2008 (U.S time)

At Peter Sarandinaki's request:

See: http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12807470&PageNum=0

Tests confirm belonging of Yekaterinburg remains to royal family

MOSCOW, June 24 (Itar-Tass) -- A number of tests have confirmed that human remains found near Yekaterinburg last July might belong to Crown Prince Alexy and his sister, Grand Duchess Maria, Russian Prosecutor General’s Office Investigation Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin told Itar-Tass.

Detectives are analyzing results of the examinations done at laboratories of Russia, the United States and Austria and will post them in the second half of July, he said.

“The Sverdlovsk regional forensic bureau led by N. Nevolin conducted identification tests with the assistance of leading experts,” Markin said. “Three independent teams of experts examined remains, which presumably belong to Emperor Nicholas II and Empress Alexandra Fyodorovna, and bone fragments from the grave unearthed in 2007,” he said.

“Genetic tests were made by the chief of the laboratory chief of the Russian Academy of Sciences’ Vavilov Genetics Institute and the DNA laboratory of the U.S. Massachusetts University Prof. Rogayev [Doctor of Biology]. He conducted unique tests on the remains found in 2007 from November 2007 through May 2008,” Markin said.

“In addition, genetic tests were made at the DNA laboratory of the U.S. Armed Forces [led by Michael Cobble] with the assistance of experts from the Sverdlovsk regional forensic bureau T. Tsitovich and N. Bandurenko, as well as at the DNA laboratory of the Innsbruck Forensic Institute [Austria] with the assistance of Yekaterinburg experts Y. Vylegzhanina and Y. Trynova in May 2008,” he said.

“All the aforesaid researchers found male and female DNA and made mitochondrial and nuclear DNA tests,” Markin said.

“Russian State Archives Director Dr. Mironenko is supervising a historical examination. His team is made up of leading historians and archivists. This far, the examination shows that the remains belong to the Russian royal family,” he said.

“All the historical documents related to the execution and the burial of the royal family have been studied. Neither Soviet documents nor files of N. Sokolov [a representative of the White Movement who investigated the royal family’s execution] contradict the theory that bodies of the royal family members and servants were buried at the 184th kilometer,” Markin said.

“Detectives considered the possibility that the bodies might have belonged to victims of political repressions of 1917-1950s or criminal offenses. No confirmation was found. There were no burials of political repression victims in that area. There was no simultaneous disappearance of a boy and a girl [of that age] in that area over the past 40 years either,” he said.
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Peterhof on July 11, 2008, 05:53:39 PM
I just learned that a new TV special called "Finding Anastasia" about the tests results will air July 22

Latest News at http://tsarevichalexei.bravehost.com (http://tsarevichalexei.bravehost.com)
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Kransnoeselo on July 16, 2008, 03:57:09 PM
Found this posted on the Royal Forums:

RIA Novosti - Russia - Urals remains belong to last tsar's children - DNA test

Interfax-Religion

×åòâåðòûé êàíàë - news
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Annie on July 16, 2008, 05:29:44 PM
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4942

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/2304461/Executed-Russian-prince-Alexei's-bones-to-be-put-on-display.html

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Russia-Remembers-The-Romanovs-Ninety-Years-On/Article/200807315038290?f=rss


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080716/wl_nm/russia_tsar_remains_dc_1


http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=12873896&PageNum=0

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080716/114083337.html


http://www.interfax.com/3/411474/news.aspx
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: AGRBear on December 01, 2008, 01:41:58 PM

By the way S.E.A.R.C.H. has announced 26 Nov. 2008:

>>Official DNA results will be announced on December 5, 2008 from Ekaterinburg.

Dr. Michael Coble, Chief Scientist of the U.S. Army DNA Laboratory will present results of the DNA tests done on the Romanov family remains by his laboratory. << http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/New-Press-Release.html

My hopes are very simple: I'd like to see the four markers which prove there are four individual grand duchesses.

AGRBear
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: Forum Admin on December 01, 2008, 03:45:17 PM
Bear,  I actually already have been made privy to the results, but asked not to reveal them.  What I CAN tell you is that there will be an answer to your question. I suspect you can already guess the answer.  The previous announcements still stand as correct.

The following is not giving away any secrets, however.  There will never be a specific identification of which daughter was Maria and which was Anastasia, and which one was in which grave site.  Without knowing the specific DNA of one, we can't determine who was who. 
Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2008, 01:06:32 PM
Itar-Tass:
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=13346557&PageNum=0

>>[in part]....YEKATERINBURG, December 5 (Itar-Tass) --Experts of the US DNA Identification Laboratory have announced that the remains removed from a first burial site found near Yekaterinburg belong to the family of the Russian last tsar, Nicholas II. They are identical 100 percent, said a senior expert of the identification department of the US DNA Laboratory.<<

No additional information information mentioned about the two remains found in the two pits in July of 07, so,  no answers to my questions as of the 5th of Dec. 2008.

AGRBear



Title: Re: The Imperial Children's Remains Discovered FAQs. Please Read!
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 08, 2008, 05:21:54 PM
Itar-Tass:
http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=13346557&PageNum=0

>>[in part]....YEKATERINBURG, December 5 (Itar-Tass) --Experts of the US DNA Identification Laboratory have announced that the remains removed from a first burial site found near Yekaterinburg belong to the family of the Russian last tsar, Nicholas II. They are identical 100 percent, said a senior expert of the identification department of the US DNA Laboratory.<<

No additional information information mentioned about the two remains found in the two pits in July of 07, so,  no answers to my questions as of the 5th of Dec. 2008.

AGRBear


Bear - it appears that there is a conference going on in Ekaterinburg that began last week - I don't know when it ends, but you are essentially correct - little of substance has appeared in the press that would be the definite proof we've been told there will be.