Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: Helen_Azar on September 04, 2007, 07:18:31 PM

Title: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 04, 2007, 07:18:31 PM
... that the remains found in Ekaterinburg are authentic?

We started discussing this topic on another thread, but I think it deserves a thread of its own (I don't think there is one, is there?). To me it's very strange that ROC would rather believe questionable sources instead of reliable scientific data. I understand that they can't just blindly accept something, nor should anyone, but it has been scientifically proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the remains buried in St Peter and Paul Cathedral are authentic. I understand that the members of ROC are not scientists, but there must be someone among ROC who has the common sense to understand this and explain it to the rest of them... Does anyone have any theories as to why they are being so closed minded about this?
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Foxglove on September 04, 2007, 08:37:08 PM
There are various reasons as to why the ROC does not believe. According to one article (BBC News), the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Alexy II believes that it is an "incontrovertible fact that Bolshevik executors of the Romanovs completely destroyed the remains. The Church experts trusted the results of the 1918 investigation by the Sokolov group which said the bodies of Nicholas II and his family members had been dissected and destroyed with sulphuric acid." This is one opinion held by the ROC.

Second, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (in exile during the Soviet rule), had relics of what were reported to be Romanov bones. Acknowledging that the remains interred in St Petersburg are indeed that of the Royal family would mean that their own relics were fakes. (It should be noted that if the bones were said to have been completely destroyed, according to the 1918 investigation, just what remains did the ROC Abroad have in their possession?)

Moreover, some believe that the Royal family was never murdered in the first place. During Nicholas' reign, he was regarded as the head of the ROC church, and believed to have been placed specifically by God in his position. Some of his loyal subjects regarded him almost as a demi-god. The idea that the Tsar and his family were slaughtered did not sit well with some believers, as God would not have placed Nicholas II in the position of Tsar only to be murdered. If Nicholas died, it was assumed his death was not by the hands of the Bolsheviks. This belief was only fuelled by rumours early on when contradicting reports were released stating that the Tsar was killed, but Alexandra and the children were alive, or that the entire family was safely removed to a secret location.


(Source: BBC NEWS, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2134727.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2134727.stm))
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 04, 2007, 09:08:22 PM
The ROCOR had what was reported to be the finger of GD Ella, whose body, along with others that died with her were recovered.  There seems to be some dispute though, they may actually have the finger of  Sister Barbara, her companion.
 IMO, it was more a matter of politics and the attempts at reconciliation between the 2 Russian Orthodox churches. [eventually achieved]
 See: The Many Deaths of Tsar Nicholas II by Wendy Slater.
 The Sokolov  "relic" consisted of "one well manicured finger"  which was probably loped off to get at a ring the body was wearing. This seems to be either buried in some family vault or behind a brick wall in some Belgian church. Take you pick.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: RichC on September 04, 2007, 09:19:49 PM
Some of the reasons for the lack of recognition are covered in Wendy Slater's book, The Many Deaths of Tsar Nicholas II.  I have not read that book, but I have read the journal article it is based on, Relics, Remains, and Revisionism: Narratives of Nicholas II in Contemporary Russia, published in Rethinking History, Vol. 9 #1, March 2005.  I can email you the PDF of the article if you like, as it is within fair use guidelines.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: lexi4 on September 04, 2007, 09:23:43 PM
... that the remains found in Ekaterinburg are authentic?

We started discussing this topic on another thread, but I think it deserves a thread of its own (I don't think there is one, is there?). To me it's very strange that ROC would rather believe questionable sources instead of reliable scientific data. I understand that they can't just blindly accept something, nor should anyone, but it has been scientifically proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the remains buried in St Peter and Paul Cathedral are authentic. I understand that the members of ROC are not scientists, but there must be someone among ROC who has the common sense to understand this and explain it to the rest of them... Does anyone have any theories as to why they are being so closed minded about this?

Helen,
Here is a quote from a New York Times article publshed on Jan. 18, 1008.

"The possibility of canonization is the reason why the church is dealing with the issue of authenticity very attentively," said the Rev. Vsevolod Chaplin, secretary for church and society at the Moscow Patriarchate. "If someone is canonized, then their remains are venerated as relics. And there can be no doubt about the authenticity of a holy relic."

Lexi
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 04, 2007, 11:31:36 PM
The whole canonisation issue is fairly contentious in itself.  Whereas the IF were declared Passion Bearers, they were after all, prisoners and had no choice in the matter of their deaths.  Whilst the attendants went volunatraily and were excluded from the the recognition.
 I think the relics bit is just a smokescreen to appease the ultra nationalists who believe in all sorts of  scenarios about the deaths, from outright survival to decapitation  [the heads are sealed in the Kremlin vaults]. Those very same ultras are major supporters of   both factions of the Church.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Belochka on September 05, 2007, 12:53:08 AM
One August, 28 the Russian TV news service on NTV offered this optimistic view:

[my translation]

«Русская православная церковь может изменить отношение к вопросу о подлинности царских останков. С таким знаковым заявлением выступил член комиссии по канонизации святых протоирей Георгий Митрофанов.»

"The Russian Orthodox Church can change its attitude towards the question of authenticity of Tsarist remains. A member of the Canonization of Saints Commission archpriest Georgii Mitrofanov came forward with this symbolic declaration."

The Moscow Church will require 100% concurrence from all kinds of experts before they will re-consider their position.

The difficult burden that the present Moscow Patriarch has to face is that he publicly declared his doubts about the authenticity of the 1991 remains. Thus it will be rather difficult to turn around and declare that an error of judgement was made before his parishoners.

Furthermore it will be a burden to acknowledge that the 1991 remains should have been accorded full recognition and be named at the time of their re-burial in 1998.

Margarita  
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: dmitri on September 05, 2007, 03:08:40 AM
I found the whole situation reeking of politics. It was quite disgusting how the names of the deceased were not mentioned at their funeral. It was very un-Christian and uncaring. Where was the "God is Love" in all of this I ask you?
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: ChristineM on September 05, 2007, 03:53:34 AM
The Russian Orthodox Church is precisely that - ORTHODOX.

In my opinion, there is much to be admired about adhering  closely to the 'Word' and, personally, I consider it my spiritual home.   However, like life, religion is a compromise - and man-made.   There are aspects of the Orthodox Church which I neither like nor agree with - but this applies to every Christian denomination.   For a start, I do not appreciate its attitude towards women in general.   

I agree, the decisions made over the last Imperial funeral were shot through with politics.   One must pray that, given the DNA findings of the remains confirm they are indeed Tsarevich Alexei and Grand Duchess Marie/Anastasia, this will give the Church authorities the opportunity to review their attitude - and come out of the entire unseemly situation with some Grace and Love.

tsaria
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: azrael7171918 on September 05, 2007, 04:49:14 AM
 I came to the conclusion that the reason the Russian Church changed their minds was political.

 In the beginning they were all excited that the remains had been found

I noticed that things changed once the Communist Party got seats back in the Duma. You have to remember that the present church in Moscow was set up by Stalin.  I think they are more worried about the Party then doing what's right for the Family and Russial.       

IF you can't beat em might as well control em.

Azrael
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: ChristineM on September 05, 2007, 05:40:23 AM
I might not like what President Putin is doing in Russia right now, but I know that he is a practising Russian Orthodox Christian - and its not just for 'show'.

tsaria
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Lemur on September 05, 2007, 09:27:37 AM
There are various reasons as to why the ROC does not believe. According to one article (BBC News), the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, Patriarch Alexy II believes that it is an "incontrovertible fact that Bolshevik executors of the Romanovs completely destroyed the remains. The Church experts trusted the results of the 1918 investigation by the Sokolov group which said the bodies of Nicholas II and his family members had been dissected and destroyed with sulphuric acid." This is one opinion held by the ROC.

Second, the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (in exile during the Soviet rule), had relics of what were reported to be Romanov bones. Acknowledging that the remains interred in St Petersburg are indeed that of the Royal family would mean that their own relics were fakes. (It should be noted that if the bones were said to have been completely destroyed, according to the 1918 investigation, just what remains did the ROC Abroad have in their possession?)

Moreover, some believe that the Royal family was never murdered in the first place. During Nicholas' reign, he was regarded as the head of the ROC church, and believed to have been placed specifically by God in his position. Some of his loyal subjects regarded him almost as a demi-god. The idea that the Tsar and his family were slaughtered did not sit well with some believers, as God would not have placed Nicholas II in the position of Tsar only to be murdered. If Nicholas died, it was assumed his death was not by the hands of the Bolsheviks. This belief was only fuelled by rumours early on when contradicting reports were released stating that the Tsar was killed, but Alexandra and the children were alive, or that the entire family was safely removed to a secret location.


(Source: BBC NEWS, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2134727.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2134727.stm))

After reading this, it reminds me of other times that people refused to change their religious views because of science. I don't know a lot about the ROC in particular so I cannot state for sure, so forgive me if I'm wrong. There are still some churches who deny that science has proven the world to be over 6,000 years old. I have personally spoken to individuals with this strong belief, and the same people will argue to the death that carbon dating is false and means nothing. The Shroud of Turin test was wrong or even rigged. And don't forget Galileo who suffered because he tried to tell the church the universe didn't revolve around the earth.

I can understand and respect religious beliefs, but as with anything else, once something has been proven differently, it borders on the irrational to continue to believe the old way and not accept the scientific evidence. Humans are learing all the time, and therefore our views and long-held beliefs may be forced to change as new information becomes available. This is no offense to anyone or their religion, but when some of these beliefs were professed, they didn't know any better and now we do. That must be taken into consideration. This goes not only for science, but what we have found out about history due to new information. At one time it was said the bodies were dissolved, but now we know they were not. It makes no sense to cling to the old story that has now been proven incorrect. To continue to deny the validity of the bones as proven by science puts one much in the same category of the claimant supporters who refuse to allow science to change what they choose to believe, and will say anything to leave it in doubt that doesn't really exist.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 05, 2007, 10:08:39 AM
After reading this, it reminds me of other times that people refused to change their religious views because of science. There are still some churches who deny that science has proven the world to be over 6,000 years old. I have personally spoken to individuals with this strong belief, and the same people will argue to the death that carbon dating is false and means nothing. The Shroud of Turin test was wrong or even rigged. And don't forget Galileo who suffered because he tried to tell the church the universe didn't revolve around the earth.

I can understand and respect religious beliefs, but as with anything else, once something has been proven differently, it borders on the irrational to continue to believe the old way and not accept the scientific evidence. Humans are learing all the time, and therefore our views and long-held beliefs may be forced to change as new information becomes available. This is no offense to anyone or their religion, but when some of these beliefs were professed, they didn't know any better and now we do. That must be taken into consideration. This goes not only for science, but what we have found out about history due to new information. At one time it was said the bodies were dissolved, but now we know they were not. It makes no sense to cling to the old story that has now been proven incorrect. To continue to deny the validity of the bones as proven by science puts one much in the same category of the claimant supporters who refuse to allow science to change what they choose to believe, and will say anything to leave it in doubt that doesn't really exist.

Lemur, this is exactly the kind of feeling I get as well, when it comes to this... In this day and age it's hard to accept, but there it is. I think that it is political only partially, but that a lot of it is for the reasons above... I'll be honest: I think I can accept the political reasons easier (not to say that it makes it ok) than I can accept the above... When will we finally all get out of the dark ages?
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Tania+ on September 05, 2007, 10:48:38 AM
Dear Tsria,

Very well said. I think it how many wish the chapter of these prescious lives to close off with. Thanks always for your wise and heart felt statements. It's a pleasure to read your learned statements. You go so often to Russia, I know you know Russia and Russians very well. Always glad to hear your direct understandings of a given issue ! God Bless !

"this will give the Church authorities the opportunity to review their attitude - and come out of the entire unseemly situation with some Grace and Love"

Tatiana+

Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: ChristineM on September 05, 2007, 01:09:09 PM
There is one simple word which answers your questions - FAITH.   You either have or you do not have faith.   Neither is better nor worse than the other because - even scientists will admit - no one on the face of the earth knows the answer.

The Russian Orthodox Church, like all religious groupings  is 'man-made'.   Inevitably politics and personalities play their part - the greatest upheaval in the Russian Orthodox Church was during the time of Patriarch Nikhon.   Elements that broke apart then, remain splintered.   Anyone wanting to learn the extent and reasons for this schism should endeavour to see Rimsky Korsakov's Khovanshina.    This 5-Act opera spells that entire episode in Russian history with a remarkable brilliance.   There was the split in the Roman Catholic Church which gave birth to Lutheranism and the founding of the Anglican Communion.   My native church - the Church of Scotland - of the Presbyterian tradition, has been riven with breakaway groups, now reunited.   Islam is no different - Shiites. Sunnis, Suffis and Ahmadiyya - again ALL man made.   Buddhism isn't without its different denominations - Theravada, Mahayana and etc.   Judaism also has its different sects.   Each believe their way is the right way.   

However, there is one common denominator amongst all the billions of people who follow an array of religions..... FAITH.   Something which has no connection whatsoever with intelligence or education.   Faith transcends all boundaries, all colour, all creeds.   It defies description.   Those who have it should be tolerant of those who don't.   Those who don't, should be tolerant of those who do.   It is life's ultimate question.

tsaria-
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 05, 2007, 02:16:54 PM
There is one simple word which answers your questions - FAITH.   

I'm sorry, maybe I misunderstand this. Are you saying that the answer to my question  "Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe that the remains found in Ekaterinburg are authentic?" is "Faith"?  I may be a little dense, but I still don't get it... what does faith have to do with ROC's conviction that these remains are not authentic?

Not to go off the subject, but tsaria, is there a difference in definition between "faith" and "dogma"?

IMO, having faith in general is a good thing for society for the most part, however, should logic be thrown away in favor of "faith"?  Should "faith" be used as an excuse for denial of irrefutable facts? If this were the case, we would still believe that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth... Too much faith can be a dangerous thing too, when it means closing your eyes and ears to reality...

*** If I offend anyone with my post, I apologize, it's not meant to be offensive.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: ChristineM on September 05, 2007, 03:23:20 PM
You certainly have caused me no offence whatsoever, Helen.   In religious terms, dogma - is man-made.   Faith - is physically, mentally and emotionally intangible.

I am sorry for the confusion.   I was trying, rather clumsily, to point out that Orthodoxy is fundamental and brooks no divergence.

tsaria
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 05, 2007, 05:01:33 PM
Helen, to clarify- The ROV has not denied the remains are those of the Romanovs, they have stated they are not convinced they are.  They can, and most likely eventually will, in time, recognize them as authentic. Not anytime soon, though I feel.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Belochka on September 05, 2007, 06:48:29 PM
Helen, to clarify- The ROV has not denied the remains are those of the Romanovs, they have stated they are not convinced they are.  They can, and most likely eventually will, in time, recognize them as authentic. Not anytime soon, though I feel.

It may be of interest to some of you to learn that the Moscow Patriarch gave his full endorsement that the first set of 1991 Ekaterinburg remains be transferred to Ekaterinburg and re-examined along with the second 2007 Ekaterinburg remains.

This is indeed welcoming.

Margarita
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 05, 2007, 08:59:01 PM
That was supposed to be ROC, of course.
 Interesting that he is now willing to have those remains re-tested. Some samples have already been sent to Ekaterinburg as I understand it. Did you not post the pictures of that, Margarita?  In any case, I can only imagine wany re-testing will  simply re-confirm the original findings. I could be wrong here, but I do not hink there is any way to differentiate one GD from another via DNA, so other evidence must be taken into consideration to determine actually which GD was in which grave. Personally, I do not it makes any real difference.   Even to the ROC.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: dmitri on September 06, 2007, 12:38:19 AM
Well once the DNA tests have been done all the remains of the Romanovs murdered in Ekaterinburg will finally be buried together in the St. Catherine Chapel.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 06, 2007, 12:46:10 AM
I think there is a somewhat negative impression in the West especially regarding the ROC because of their not accepting the identification of the remains from 1991. It may help to improve this impression if the Church now accepts the scientific evidence as correct as does most of the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Tania+ on September 06, 2007, 06:39:06 PM
Lisa, perhaps there is some negativity in the West when it comes to the ROC not accepting the identifications of the remains from 1981. Still, the church is working to reform its views, and meet with all involved in church matters, etc., so that its public persona will be understood expressly. I think it is the sameness of what is transpiring throughout Russia, in government reforms, etc. God willing, it will evolve more and more with less negativity. As Tsaria expressed of late, faith is something that comes from within. I think many of us never thought we would see a Russia as today, but with hard work, it has evolved much since 1917. May Russia continue to open up, and grow, as well with faith.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Inok Nikolai on July 26, 2012, 09:31:34 AM
"Moscow Patriarchate to Reconsider its Position on Royal Remains?"

As reported by Paul Gilbert:

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/news/502news.html
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: LadyHezter on July 26, 2012, 09:37:49 AM
Thank You Inok Nikolai for posting the link !

LadyH.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Inok Nikolai on July 26, 2012, 09:49:27 AM
Thank You Inok Nikolai for posting the link !

LadyH.


You're welcome.

BTW: A thread has been started on this topic:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=17216.msg509944#msg509944
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Rodney_G. on July 27, 2012, 02:24:25 PM
In response to the original question: The ROC since the Revolution , and especially its Bolshevik/communist incarnation, was  somewhere betwen outright hostile to  to generally  skeptical about institutional state (communist) authority, and for good reason. The Communists were militantly atheistic and would have destroyed the Church if it could have. It almost did. The  Soviets undermined , weakened, and/ or coopted the ROC.

The ROC naturally distrusted the Soviet government , even in minor matters. The Ekaterinburg remains were under Soviet "control' ,so to speak, for 73 years, and the fall of Communism in Russia couldn't mitigate the ROC's distrust overnight. Having a former KGB  head (Putin) as President or Prime Minister could hardly be reassuring. In a matter as sensitive to the ROC"s heart as the authentication  and burial of the IF 's remains, the ROC's suspicions are almost understandable, though in this case,  as the world scientific community has proved ,still  excessive.

In my view, this whole thing is another unfortunate legacy of the USSR, even though it's been gone for twenty years. I hope the ROC can come around to accepting the remains as authentic without feleing it's comromising its religious tenets.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: TimM on July 28, 2012, 10:55:18 AM
Quote
In my view, this whole thing is another unfortunate legacy of the USSR, even though it's been gone for twenty years

Yeah, the USSR may be dead, but its ghost will continue to haunt Russia for years to come.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 28, 2012, 02:19:57 PM
I think not any more than the tyranny of the Empire. The huge class differences,  along with other lethal ailments. The glory may be preserved, the bodies long buried and the pages turned, but that legacy is there as well. This romanticism with royalty is  just a hobby to history.  It is the actions that go on record.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 14, 2013, 03:33:16 PM
Paul Gilbert on the ROC's continuing doubts about the relics:


ROC Still Doubts Authenticity of Russian Royal Family Remains
Friday, 9 August 2013
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1449038/roc-still-doubts-authenticity-of-russian-royal-family-remains/
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 12, 2013, 12:13:35 AM
It's a shame that this still hasn't been satisfactorily resolved. 7 years will be Fall 2014. If the two missing ones still have not been buried by then, it will be concerning. at least to me.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: TimM on November 13, 2013, 11:18:11 AM
What kind of dolts are running the ROC?  DNA has PROVEN all the Romanovs have been accounted for.  Why all the feet dragging?
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Georgiy on November 13, 2013, 11:52:35 PM
It is important because any Relics for venration must be genuine. That is why, I think, one of the reasons it is taking some time. Please do not suggest they are dolts.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: edubs31 on November 14, 2013, 06:51:13 AM
It is important because any Relics for venration must be genuine. That is why, I think, one of the reasons it is taking some time. Please do not suggest they are dolts.

It's a shame though. The time that is supposedly necessary to resolve these types of matters. None of us are getting any younger and with each passing year there are a select number of individuals, some of whom passionately involved in the subject, who pass on without receiving that closure.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Превед on November 14, 2013, 01:04:14 PM
This must be the ROC at its most Byzantine, wanting to appear like some sort of ambiguous oracle who can't be wrong either way. Hard to gasp for Protestants coming from a landscape where it's a virtue to be as divisive as possible.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: TimM on November 15, 2013, 11:07:49 AM
Quote
It is important because any Relics for venration must be genuine. That is why, I think, one of the reasons it is taking some time. Please do not suggest they are dolts.


DNA is an exact science.  Not my fault if the ROC doesn't want to join the 21st Century.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: AGRBear on November 22, 2013, 07:12:26 PM
>>"In my opinion, a very wide range of competent experts, not necessarily just Orthodox experts, should be allowed to study the discovered remains," Father Vsevolod said.
 
It is important both to compare the DNA of some individual fragment with the DNA of the remains of other Imperial Family members, assess the wholeness of the skeletons, establish whether or not all of the found human remains have the same DNA and confirm the presence of former injuries, for example the injury that was sustained by Tsar Nicholas II during his trip to Japan when he was the heir to the Russian throne, the archpriest said.
 
There is also a need to compare different theories describing how the bodies were disposed of and buried, he said.<<

It appears to me that Father Vsevolod and his group would feel more comfortable having experts they know and trust to test the individual fragments, assess the skeleton and establish former injuries, etc. etc. etc..  Their church has a huge following and I'm sure they want to be right in their conclusion.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 22, 2013, 07:24:17 PM
To be sure, I can understand why the ROC "wants to be right", but from a scientific perspective, the testing is complete and to demand more tests could risk there not being enough samples left for veneration. At a certain point, enough is enough.

What is to stop them from wanting still more tests if more testing is done? There is a difference between science and belief. Scientifically, there is no need and I just can't see where more science is going to resolve a difficulty of belief.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: AGRBear on November 23, 2013, 04:35:18 PM
What kind of dolts are running the ROC?  DNA has PROVEN all the Romanovs have been accounted for.  Why all the feet dragging?

Perhaps if the Russian officials had given the church  representatives involvement in the various testings,  the church would not feel the need to redo everything so they could feel comfortable about the various results.

The church has a room full of reasons not to trust the government that turned their churches into stables just a short time ago, so, give the church all the time and cooperation needed for them to make their own testing, discoveries and conclusions.

As for using up all the bones for tests,  I don't think the Royal Family would mind that their church, with whom they gave their hearts and souls,  have any doubts that their church have only  good intentions in seeking the truth.   

AGRBear





Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 24, 2013, 01:52:01 AM
I can understand some mistrust of their own scientists, but the fact remains that a great deal of the work was done abroad, primarily in the United Kingdom and the United States.

Our governments have not turned our churches into stables.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: AGRBear on April 25, 2014, 07:02:14 PM
When I was speaking of the "turning churches into stables",  I was referring to the time of the Russian Revolution until the fall of communism....  I'm not sure when the anti-religion ban was lifted but it wasn't all that long ago....  The  communists under the leaders of Lenin, Stalin and others did not believe in God.   Churches are being rebuilt, now, but many villages still have only ruins.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 07, 2014, 01:10:57 AM
I should also make it clear that I am not an Orthodox Christian, I am a severely lapsed Catholic practicing as an Episcopalian. I respect the Orthodox Church even though I confess I don't understand their stance on the remains.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: TimM on October 07, 2014, 07:15:48 AM
Quote
The  communists under the leaders of Lenin, Stalin and others did not believe in God.

The reason was because they saw God as the competition.  Lenin and Stalin thought the people should bow to them and no one else.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: DNAgenie on October 07, 2014, 08:22:06 PM
It might be hard for Westerners to understand why the Russian Orthodox Church might choose not to believe, but the situation looks rather different from inside Russia.

See the thread at http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=17938.0  for more details.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Превед on October 08, 2014, 03:34:45 AM
It might be hard for Westerners to understand why the Russian Orthodox Church might choose not to believe, but the situation looks rather different from inside Russia.

See the thread at http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=17938.0  for more details.

The last year's events have full well demonstrated how the Russian body politick is guided by manipulation, conspiracy theories, irrationality and misinformation, so it's now no longer a wonder that the Orthodox Church, another of the state's propaganda machines, deliberately "chooses not to believe", just like the Russian body politick "chooses not to believe" that they are being misgoverned by a manipulative criminal.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: Превед on January 19, 2018, 07:14:33 PM
When one reads how the Orthodox church generally rejoiced in having the Tsarist yoke lifted from itself after the February Revolution and NII's abdication; symbolically by storing the Emperor's cęsaropapal seat in the Holy Synod in a museum and electing a new patriarch for the first time in 300 years, their ambiguous attitude in this matter becomes clearer.
Title: Re: Why does the Russian Orthodox Church chooses not to believe....
Post by: holynewmartyr on July 15, 2018, 02:20:14 PM
Although the Russian Orthodox Church has not recognized officially the "Yekaterinburg remains" as those of the royal family, I have found online three Russian Orthodox communities in the USA that have obtained bone fragments and have enshrined them as holy relics in their churches:

Hermitage of the Holy Cross Russian Orthodox Monastery (ROCOR) in West Virginia, USA: https://www.orthodoxartsjournal.org/american-shrine-honor-russian-royal-martyrs/

Saint George Russian Orthodox Church (ROCOR) in Howell, New Jersey, USA: http://archive.eadiocese.org/News/2009/june/julycelebrations.en.htm

Photos:

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/101580981612218071495/album/AF1QipMxvYJPdyQpUQ5AkrIQSinlXhGIIMZ6-PjCjUC0

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/101580981612218071495/album/AF1QipOad_65BcKgdWSeD80dd1bZxuTG5TfFGMFTQEIX

https://get.google.com/albumarchive/101580981612218071495/album/AF1QipMEzkJOYT9vNhLtPSxgflIjdacBxCUYGPyJ_j3F

Saint Nicholas Orthodox Cathedral (OCA) in Washington, D.C., USA: https://ryanphunter.wordpress.com/2012/09/29/st-nicholas-cathedral-a-photo-essay/

Audio explanation of icon and relics: https://exhibits.library.villanova.edu/russian-revolution/exhibit/relics-imperial-family/