Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 04:56:42 PM

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 04:56:42 PM
What on the flat Earth??!! An avid AA supporter posted this on the forum on my site:

Tschaikowsky (most likely Stanislav Mishkevich) did not pull the cart through Russia, he had a horse or an ox to to that. AA stated that both the horse and the cart had to be replaced several times, and the jewels hidden in her clothing made all this possible.
The date of December 5th, 1918, was the day AA crossed the Dniestr into Moldavia. And the witness who told this, the Armenian Sarscho Gregorian,was later, in May, paid 5000 lei for his services to "Grand Duchess Anastasia", a payment which co-incided with the sale of a certain string of pearls by a man, fitting the description of Stanislav Mishkevich, in Buchurest.
And this is only the beginning.

Her rescuer, Stanislav Mishkevich, was seen in Bucharest at the end of November by his friend Mr. Anastasiou. He told Mr. A. that he had rescued the Grand Duchess and was looking for a hospital for her where he could take her in secrecy. Seems like he went ahead of the others to find a place for AA to recuperate.


Since when did his name change? Was he now using an alias, or are AA supporters trying to claim this person, if he's even real, was actually the rescuer since he was allegedly 'seen' by someone? The new name and details make no sense and are not seen anywhere else, even in AA books, where did this nonsense come from?

There is more where that came from, will be posting more fiction soon!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on September 14, 2007, 05:02:29 PM
Where does this rubbish come from? It is completely ludicrous and inaccurate.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 05:10:35 PM
Where does this rubbish come from? It is completely ludicrous and inaccurate.

I agree, there is no basis for it at all anywhere but suddenly he (the avid AA supporter) is inventing a whole new tale. He adds details that were never said before, even putting words in AA's mouth:


AA said nothing about being put on a cart and whisked away right after the shootings. She was unconscious for days and finally woke up in a cart, covered with onions (to hide her), lying in the "old woman's clothes" while her own were hidden in the cart.
Kleibenzetl did not sew uniforms for the soldiers, he was the assistant to the tailor and brought and picked up uniforms for cleaning and repair.


I never heard that part of the cart story, or anything about onions, it was always that she woke up in the cart. So now he's trying to add in the ridiculous Heinrich K. story and find a way for it to fit in, what a straw to grasp!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 05:20:45 PM
Now the story of the baby has changed:

Her son was born in autumn of 1919

Strange this was never the date until after the long, hard "rape on the Rus" controversy here on this forum. AA supporters had alleged that the original date given of his birth, Dec. 5, 1918 was right and there for AA as 'AN' had to have been pregnant early in 1918 to make the baby viable (and miraculously survive the execution!) After all that mess fell through, they suddenly said it was 1919 and that no one had ever said different. We here have seen many mentions of this child having been born in 1918. AA herself never mentioned being raped on the Rus, but she did allude to being 'friendly' with some Red guards in captivity. This shows that AA had to find a way to explain away being pregnant and having a baby in late 1918. Now they want to change it. Whatever!

Any other date is the invention of Baron von Kleist.


She sure didn't mind Kleist's 'inventions' when they suited her. And so he's admitting Kleist 'invented' things? He sure did!

AA did not put the child in an orphanage, she left it with her rescuers mother and sister in Bucharest. Only later, when an unknown gentleman surfaced in Berlin, most likely Nicholas Mishkevich, was it determined that the boy had been placed in an orphanage in Galatz. (Now Galati)


This again goes against "Riddle of Anastasia" and everything else previously known about AA, and even contradicts her OWN story of the baby! Again, the names of the 'rescuer' and his alleged 'brother' have changed. Where did this come from??

You said AA was never in Rumania. I agree, it is difficult to prove. But she did name the street on which she lived: Sventa Voievodi. (I may have misspelled this one.) The street was not marked on any map at the time, it was just a crooked lane in the old town with a side entrance to the German Embassy.

Maybe it's not on a map because it--shhh- never existed? Ya think?

The reason for not contacting the Rumanian Queen, was because AA was at the time pregnant and ashamed of her condition.


This has already been shot down by Romanov relatives who say Queen Marie was the most 'open minded' and freewheeling member of the family and would have been most likely to accept her condition. The real reason she didn't go is of course because she wasn't AN, was never there, and never heard of Marie!

still more to come...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on September 14, 2007, 05:28:23 PM
Yes the old information about not seeing Queen Marie of Romania. This is so completely silly isn't it? Marie would have never turned the real Anastasia away especially after losing her own beloved little Mircea. She would have seen through a fake though very easily.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 05:36:15 PM
Here is his pathetic attempt to invent a new life for FS so she won't be AA so AA can still be AN!

Now to Berlin and the jump in the canal. It was on February 17th, 1920. On March 9th, the police got an "Abmeldung" that Franzisca Schanzkowska had moved to places unknown. She was not reported "missing" at this point, only moved on.


This is news to me, even the AA supporters always said she was 'reported missing' and used the excuse about the lapse in time. They also actively claimed there were thorough searches for her all over Germany. This has only changed since the reality of the coup and the instability of Weimar Germany has come out. After all that defending the search for FS, he's now saying that there was no search because she wasn't missing? Excuse me??

Members of her family reportedly told that she stayed in Hygendorf until the end of March, but this cannot be confirmed.

That's right it can't be confirmed, because no one ever said it. Where did this gem come from, the bottom of a straw box?


She was later reportedly seen by Bruno Grandowsky in company of other women trying to secure a position as a maid in London.

I have heard this one before, but there has never, ever been any evidence of it and was never anything more than a rumor (or lie)and/or mistaken identity/and/or a desperate attempt to find way to be rid of FS, yeah, so AA won't be her and can still be AN!


Three nurses from a German asylum reported in the early 30's that she had been their patient for some time in their institution.

This is a new one, so who were these nurses, where was the asylum, where is the proof, pictures, records, etc. They DO NOT EXIST because this never happened!!

At the end of February 1920, her brother Felix got a belated birthday card where Franzisca excuses her tardiness because of much work. And believe me, the postal service in Berlin was much better than it is in USA now, so don't try to find excuses for a delivery that came two weeks late.

Why should we believe you? How would you know, you weren't even there! We do know that there was much turmoil in Germany at that time, coups, uprisings by workers, one even by communists. It makes much more sense to figure the mail would be late. As for the US now, well I mailed something to a back country road in the White Mountains of NH, a place too far out for TV or cell phone signals, and it made it from southern VA in 2 days. I hardly think the disrupted and underfunded Weimar mail could beat that.


It is again "desperate grasping at straws". The two women were both accounted for at the same time.

It is, but the 'grasping' is the beyond desperate AA supporter as the ship sinks further with the discovery of the remains of the missing children. AA and FS were NOT accounted for at the same time as separate people and there is NO proof of this. AA/FS was in the asylum in Berlin, and there was no exciting separate life for FS. Why must the poor horse still suffer?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on September 14, 2007, 05:47:25 PM
this shipping disaster seems to have been worse than the Titanic ... hope the poor horse was able to escape the ship
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2007, 05:48:55 PM
this shipping disaster seems to have been worse than the Titanic ... hope the poor horse was able to escape the ship

LOL! ;D He will survive, unlike AA's ridiculous story!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: stepan on September 15, 2007, 07:04:43 PM
All this stuff about Stanislav Mishkevich can be read in "I, Anastasia" the "autobiography" written by Roland Krug von Nidda. The name Mishkevich was found on a list of the guards at the Ipatiev house that Sokolov published in his book. There were two brothers Mishkevich. On one of them was written,"marine from St.Petersburg". It has been suggested that they could be the Tshaikovsky brothers. Ofcourse no proof whatsoever. The whole thing about the rescue and stay in Romania was probably made up by AA. A search was made there in the 1920´s. No trace of them was found. The story about FS being at an asylum  in Herrenprotsh in Germany can be found in a footnote in PK´s book. It´s very vague and I don´t believe much in it. Certainly the Schanzkowsky family would have known about this if it were true when they met AA in 1938 at the confrontation.






"Keine Hexerei,nur ein Bisschen Behändigkeit"
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on September 15, 2007, 07:43:46 PM
Thank you Stepan, you don't post enough but always pop in with very interesting posts. "I Anastasia", what a work of fiction, that makes sense it would come from something like that. Talk about grasping at straws to find two Bolsheviks who were brothers and try to say they were the nonexistent Tchiakovskys! FS was in an asylum in the 1930's all right, but in upstate NY after she went into a rage and hit people with sticks and pranced nude on the roof of Annie Jennings' building! FS was in there because AA was in there and they were the same person.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on September 15, 2007, 08:36:34 PM
All this stuff about Stanislav Mishkevich can be read in "I, Anastasia" the "autobiography" written by Roland Krug von Nidda. The name Mishkevich was found on a list of the guards at the Ipatiev house that Sokolov published in his book.


Interestingly, my copy of Sokolov does not contain either the name Mishekvich or Tchaivovsky on the lists of the  guard at the Ipatiev house.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Belochka on September 15, 2007, 09:28:40 PM
All this stuff about Stanislav Mishkevich can be read in "I, Anastasia" the "autobiography" written by Roland Krug von Nidda. The name Mishkevich was found on a list of the guards at the Ipatiev house that Sokolov published in his book.


Interestingly, my copy of Sokolov does not contain either the name Mishekvich or Tchaivovsky on the lists of the  guard at the Ipatiev house.

Even more interestingly the names are not listed in the Russian language edition.

Margarita
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: stepan on September 17, 2007, 03:46:20 PM
That is strange . I also have the Russian edition of Sokolovs book. I checked today and indeed I did find them. In chapter 14, page 155 in my book. Nikolaj and Stanislav Mishkevich. After Nikolaj´s name is written "matros iz petrograda".  On page 158 Sokolaov writes "Only the brothers Mishkevichi and Skoroshinski were probably of Polish nationality. All the others were Russians". Ofcourse this doesen´t mean anything. I suppose Roland Krug von Nidda or somebody else had read this and connected them with a possible "Tshaikovsky" to fit her story.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Suzanne on September 27, 2007, 01:17:39 AM
as well as the fictional autobiography, "I am Anastasia" also contains excerpts from Gilliard's reminisenses about the real Anastasia as a child, which do not appear in "Thirteen Years at the Russian Court", is this information lifted from later interviews from Gilliard or it as fictional as the rest of the "autobiography"
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Lemur on September 27, 2007, 09:17:00 AM
That is strange . I also have the Russian edition of Sokolovs book. I checked today and indeed I did find them. In chapter 14, page 155 in my book. Nikolaj and Stanislav Mishkevich. After Nikolaj´s name is written "matros iz petrograda".  On page 158 Sokolaov writes "Only the brothers Mishkevichi and Skoroshinski were probably of Polish nationality. All the others were Russians". Ofcourse this doesen´t mean anything. I suppose Roland Krug von Nidda or somebody else had read this and connected them with a possible "Tshaikovsky" to fit her story.

That's quite a stretch to find two brothers who are poles and add them into the fictional account of the Tshaikovskys. Does it ever say what became of them?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 11, 2007, 04:24:48 PM
Annie, I am curious, just who wrote what you're quoting here? The reason I ask is that I believe that whoever wrote this is the copyright holder, unless you have specific permission from him/her should not be quoted. And the person at the very least should not be quoted without attribution, irrespective of the copyright issue?

Just asking. I mean, if everyone is going to jump all over this person, should we not know who it is and if this is their writing, and if so if this is with their permission. Otherwise, someone could be making this up and would make all of this rather pointless?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on October 11, 2007, 04:33:54 PM
A member who is no longer with us sent it to me in a PM. It is not a quote directly from any book.  Other people have told me the names are  mentioned in "I, Anastasia." I did not quote the person who said it, because I thought mentioning names would be an invasion of privacy. It doesn't matter who said it, it's the info itself I wanted to know more about.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on October 11, 2007, 07:16:34 PM
Yes from the very beginning all the so called evidence to do with the fraud Anna Anderson was dubious to say the least.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: loulia on November 02, 2007, 04:37:39 AM
I've already read this theory in a book from the 60's by the french historian Alain Decaux. Actually the author was sure AA was FS but he quoted all the "testimonies" whose were heard at this time, and among them they were people from Russia and Rumania who sais they meet a russian soldier who told them he saved Anastasia, and he uses this false name, Aleksander Tshaikovsky because he was scared for his life. But some witnesses said they knew him before the revolution and his real name was Stanislav Mishkevich.
In the book, the author says clearly those testimony are very dubious, but this rumour already exist at that time
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on November 02, 2007, 08:28:32 AM
No doubt. Amazing how some people can be so gullible.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on November 02, 2007, 10:47:07 AM
Thanks, Loulia, I had never heard of that book,what is the name of it? It's always interesting when people find books that were only printed in Europe that most Americans don't know about. Dubious 'testimony' sounds about right, and I wouldn't doubt that some people may have even been paid or promised payoff for their 'stories', or it could have come from the rumors. But the cart trip never took place.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: loulia on November 03, 2007, 07:58:57 AM
Sorry I'm not home today but I will give you the source tomorrow evening when I'm home, and I'll quote the testimonies
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on November 03, 2007, 10:11:08 AM
Thank you, that will be very interesting to read!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: loulia on November 03, 2007, 03:11:22 PM
I'm getting back home sooner than I thaught, missing to much my daughter :P
So for the book it is: The enigme Anastasia
by Alain Decaux
edition La Palatine
printed in 1961
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: loulia on November 03, 2007, 03:51:47 PM
and for the testimonies: I'll make it a bit shorter , I'll quote only one, because it is very long and I have to translate
I'll check just the most interseting things:

Direction of the central "brigad" (don't know how to translate this word, sorry) of the police

  "Me, A.C.C., from the town C., district I, born in this town and living street Ch. D., declares:
I lived in Russia from 1917 to april 1918, where I worked for the war ministery and for the french military mission, it made me traveled to different places: Arkhangel, Petrograd, Riga, Kharkov, Moscow, Simferopol, Sebastopol, Vologda, Ekaterinburg, Kiev and Odessa. During those trips I met a lot of Russian officers from the Tsar's army.
Back in Rumania, I had an intervention surgical and entered, the 27 November 1918, at the Philantropia Hospital, and left a few time after. One day I was sit on a bench on the Victoria's place, not far from this hospital, and a Polish native man, a good friend that I met in Russia, where he was soldier in the bolshevist army, came close to me.
I knew him as Stanislaw.
He was a normal tall, had chatain hair and a scar at the left eye.
In Russia, he ever called me "Pan" as I also called him.
But I know for sure his name was Stanislaw Mishkevich.
  We talked together a moment, then he asked me if there were bolshevics in Rumania
I answered no there are not and there will never be. As he knew in Russia I belonged to the Cadets party, he told me he had something to say to me, something secret and who had to stay secret. He asked me my parole of honor to be mute, and told me that if I don't, I would be kill and my familly too.
When I gave him my parole, he started to explain that him, Stanislaw, had in his home someone badly injured and he wanted to take this person to Bucarest to put her in a hospital. But it couldn't be a military hospital.
I told him to go to the Dr Gerotta's sanatorium, even if it was expensive. He said he didn't care, he had enough money, but the secret had to stay secret. I told him that if it wasn't about a crime , he could feel tranquil, because in Rumania we were very free.
He told me :" but if the injured person... is a woman... I could make people believe she is a man?" I answered it was impossible. Then, my friend Stanislaw, with tears in his eyes, told me the truth:
" I have under my protection a woman from the Tzar's familly murdered by Yurovsky, the fat and brutal worker. Yurovsky killed only the Tzar, the Tzarina and one of their daughter. The other members of the familly were killde by soldiers. I saved one of the girl. I want to go to her, with a friend, in the town I left her, near Odessa, in the Nicolaev direction, and bring her here. I want to save her from bolshevics, who would kill me if they knew what I did."
Then I asked him how he managed to save her. He answered that Yurovsky, the fat and brutal bolshevic, killed the Tzar, the Tzarina and one of their girl, put them in a lorry "packard", brought them in a forest not far from here, where he burnt them, for the Kolshakt's army, who came close from Ekaterinburg, can't find them. Among the others members of the Tzar's familly, he saved a young girl and took her in a small car to Nicolaev-Odessa. She was injured at the head and on her face, because she received "coup de crosse" (please someone translate?)
 We seperated without he took a decision, I waited for a letter from here but never received nothing.
I've read in a newspaper from Bucarest that Miss Sp, living at the hotel Splendid, came to Bucarest to learn more about grand duchess Anastasia, that my friend Stanislaw saved. I wrote to this woman that I could learn to her some details on this subject. µThose details are the ones I'm tellin here.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: loulia on November 03, 2007, 03:53:05 PM
I think one testimony is enough to see all the inacurencies...
No comment...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: loulia on November 03, 2007, 03:57:47 PM
but in the book, the author also relates the different stories AA made up to explain how she survived, at the begining of her claim: she first said she went to Rumania with the wife of the soldier who saved her, then with the soldier and his father Sergei, then with a soldier called Alexander Tshaikovsky, his brother Sergei, sister Veronika and probably his mother Maria.
Even if the brothers were between 20 and 30 years old, Maria was about 40 years old. Young mother! :)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on November 03, 2007, 04:04:39 PM
I think one testimony is enough to see all the inacurencies...
No comment...

Yes it is, thank you for posting. It sure is inaccurate about a great many things. This doesn't even match with AA's cart story which was also false.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on November 03, 2007, 07:29:50 PM
Yes it is quite amazing the lies the fraud told.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 11, 2007, 10:26:42 AM
Yes it is quite amazing the lies the fraud told.

dmitri: You are hereby prohibited from repeating your very tired saw about "lies" and "fraud" any further on this thread. The facts are, there is no proof that AA committed deliberate fraud, and moreover, your extremely repetitive comments do absolutely nothing to improve or to enhance the discussion of this topic. We all know how you feel, so give it a rest.

And, please don't debate me on this issue - if you fail to follow this directive, you will be treated to a suspension, courtesy of me.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Cody on January 21, 2008, 03:17:10 PM
Now the story of the baby has changed:

Her son was born in autumn of 1919

Strange this was never the date until after the long, hard "rape on the Rus" controversy here on this forum. AA supporters had alleged that the original date given of his birth, Dec. 5, 1918 was right and there for AA as 'AN' had to have been pregnant early in 1918 to make the baby viable (and miraculously survive the execution!) After all that mess fell through, they suddenly said it was 1919 and that no one had ever said different.

It's been a while since I read Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, but somehow I thought the child was born in 1919.  If it said December 1918, I certainly would have caught on that as one of my criticisms of the book.  With that being said, I'll let the world know that one of my two biggest criticisms of Kurth's book was what took place in Romania.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Cody on January 21, 2008, 03:28:34 PM


 The facts are, there is no proof that AA committed deliberate fraud, and moreover, your extremely repetitive comments do absolutely nothing to improve or to enhance the discussion of this topic. We all know how you feel, so give it a rest.

I don't want to "stir the pot" in respect to Lisa and Dmitri, but I thought I would comment briefly on Anna Anderson thinking she was Anastasia.  I'm not a psychologist, but I did take a course, before I had to drop it, on Psychology of Religion.  One of the things we learned is what is called "role playing."  For example, I don't think how to act like a graduate student; it's just something that I am.  Anna Anderson, I think thought she really was Anastasia, and therefore, she acted how she thought Anastasia would act--based on things she either read, or what she was told.  What she read or was told simply became a part of her, and she thought nothing of it.  Of course, I'm sure there are others who might see this differently.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 21, 2008, 06:15:12 PM


 The facts are, there is no proof that AA committed deliberate fraud, and moreover, your extremely repetitive comments do absolutely nothing to improve or to enhance the discussion of this topic. We all know how you feel, so give it a rest.

I don't want to "stir the pot" in respect to Lisa and Dmitri, but I thought I would comment briefly on Anna Anderson thinking she was Anastasia.  I'm not a psychologist, but I did take a course, before I had to drop it, on Psychology of Religion.  One of the things we learned is what is called "role playing."  For example, I don't think how to act like a graduate student; it's just something that I am.  Anna Anderson, I think thought she really was Anastasia, and therefore, she acted how she thought Anastasia would act--based on things she either read, or what she was told.  What she read or was told simply became a part of her, and she thought nothing of it.  Of course, I'm sure there are others who might see this differently.

I think you have something here, some people have stated that she seemed to put on an act of what she thought a Grand Duchess would act like- tossing her boa, etc, but it came off like a cheap imitation. Really, Anastasia was a tomboy, not at all prissy. It seems to me that AA passed as a generic Grand Duchess/piece of Imperial Russian nostalgia more than ANASTASIA herself. Hardly anyone identified her as specifically ANASTASIA, and very few people knew the real AN well enough to judge her one way or the other. Most of the people listed as 'accepting' her had little to no contact with the real thing (examples: Cecile of Germany, Martha of Sweden, Grand Duke Andre)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 21, 2008, 06:18:38 PM
Now the story of the baby has changed:

Her son was born in autumn of 1919

Strange this was never the date until after the long, hard "rape on the Rus" controversy here on this forum. AA supporters had alleged that the original date given of his birth, Dec. 5, 1918 was right and there for AA as 'AN' had to have been pregnant early in 1918 to make the baby viable (and miraculously survive the execution!) After all that mess fell through, they suddenly said it was 1919 and that no one had ever said different.

It's been a while since I read Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, but somehow I thought the child was born in 1919.  If it said December 1918, I certainly would have caught on that as one of my criticisms of the book.  With that being said, I'll let the world know that one of my two biggest criticisms of Kurth's book was what took place in Romania.

The original date was Dec. 5, 1918, when she was with the Von Kliests. Kurth will say at some point in 1922 she claimed the baby would be 'about 3' but no date is given. I noticed that after the dreaded 'Rape on the Rus' incident (some claiming the girls were raped aboard the Rus, thus making Anastasia time appropriately pregnant for a Dec. 1918 birth) that blew up here on this forum, AA supporters are now backing off that date. In Frances Welch's recent AA book "Life at the Court of AA" she gives the birthdate as Dec. 5, 1918.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on January 21, 2008, 10:10:51 PM
Annie:

You don't mean that she was with the von Kleists in 1918, but that when she was with the von Kleists she was telling everyone that the baby was born on December 5, 1918.

So she would have gotten pregnant in March?  December 5th being nine months from March 5th or there abouts.  How does that time-line fit in with the Russ?

I wonder what did happen the Francezka's child?  Since she was medically proven to have had one.  Does anyone know where FS was in March of 1918?

The only thing that would have made AA's assertion that she had a child and abandoned it fit the general scheme of things is that Marie Pavlovna
(the younger) did it twice!  She could have claimed it ran in the family.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on January 22, 2008, 06:37:00 AM
I don't think too many people are too interested in where an obscure Polish woman had a baby. It has nothing to in any way with the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on January 22, 2008, 07:24:39 AM
Since FS kept the world wondering about who she truly was and whether or not she was Anastasia Romanova, I don't think we can call her "obscure".

I am also always interested in the whys and wherefores of what people do.  Any mystery will peak my attention.

Suppose that baby were to have lived and had a family?  That baby could sill be living at the age of 89 almost 90.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on January 22, 2008, 09:40:50 AM
Nicholas, Alexandra and Maria left Tobolsk on April 13/26.  Anastasia et al left Tobolsk on May 7/20. (cf: Volkov "Memories").

A March conception date for a child thus would be highly unlikely to be possible, and as result of the non-existent "rape" on the Rus ("Rodianov shut up the Tsarevich in his cabin with the attendant Nagorny, leaving the grand duchesses in peace." see Volkov ch. 20.) virtually impossible.

Most likely is that the imposter FS had heard the Imperial Family were moved from Tobolsk in "early spring 1918" so she chose some date close to then for the pregnancy nonsense.

Of course, the recent confirmation of the DNA match of the last set of remains to the rest of the Romanov family gives the ultimate evidence that FS was indeed an imposter.

Rest in Peace Anastasia Nicholaievna. Rest in Peace, Anna Manahan,  whoever you were.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 22, 2008, 11:40:41 AM
Annie:

You don't mean that she was with the von Kleists in 1918, but that when she was with the von Kleists she was telling everyone that the baby was born on December 5, 1918.

No, sorry if it came out that way. I meant she was with them when the details of her 'escape' story came out (and they likely had a hand in helping her invent it) They were very foolish, though, to disregard the extreme distance between Ekaterinburg and Romania, the terrain they'd have to cross, and the harsh weather they'd encounter, which would have made their journey much longer (and really, impossible, but of course it never happened)

Quote
So she would have gotten pregnant in March?  December 5th being nine months from March 5th or there abouts.  How does that time-line fit in with the Russ?

It does seem possible to me that the entire 'rape on the Rus' rumor was invented and spread to back up AA's claim (I mean in recent years, not AA herself.)

Quote
I wonder what did happen the Francezka's child?  Since she was medically proven to have had one.  Does anyone know where FS was in March of 1918?

I do, too. AA supporters like to tell you there is no record of FS having a child, but this doesn't mean she didn't have one. In those days, pregnancy 'out of wedlock' was a disgrace to the girl and her family, so it's not unusual she hid it from those she knew. (Even today, you still hear about girls who hide their pregnancies and toss their babies in the trash can) There are several things that could have happened to FS's child- miscarriage, backalley abortion, (as I have said many times, a baby of at least 4-5 months gestation leaves the same evidence on the uterus as a full term baby, my Grandmother's doctor told her he could tell she'd had five children, but one was actually a second trimester miscarriage) she could have thrown it in the trash,smothered it, abandoned it on a doorstep or orphanage. In all those cases there would be no record of its existence.  I believe that the loss, in whatever way, of this baby contributed to FS's depression which led to her suicide attempt.

I would like to say that this news today would put an end to the AA nonsense, but the AA fanatics are still claiming the bones were just leftovers from the old grave, planted, etc.  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: imperial angel on January 22, 2008, 11:43:17 AM


 The facts are, there is no proof that AA committed deliberate fraud, and moreover, your extremely repetitive comments do absolutely nothing to improve or to enhance the discussion of this topic. We all know how you feel, so give it a rest.

I don't want to "stir the pot" in respect to Lisa and Dmitri, but I thought I would comment briefly on Anna Anderson thinking she was Anastasia.  I'm not a psychologist, but I did take a course, before I had to drop it, on Psychology of Religion.  One of the things we learned is what is called "role playing."  For example, I don't think how to act like a graduate student; it's just something that I am.  Anna Anderson, I think thought she really was Anastasia, and therefore, she acted how she thought Anastasia would act--based on things she either read, or what she was told.  What she read or was told simply became a part of her, and she thought nothing of it.  Of course, I'm sure there are others who might see this differently.

This has always been my opinion too, as I'm sure I have said on many past threads. Thanks so much though though for the part about role playing, from Psychology of Religion. It gives more of an authoritative and different source on this matter than just another person saying that's what they think. I'd agree with you anyway, but that part makes it all the more intriguing. We will never be able to enter Anna Anderson's head and know why she pretended she was Anastasia, etc. There have been different answers to this topic, as well as  to why she got away with it so well. In the end, the role playing answers two questions in one though. Also, I agree with Annie about her being a generic grand duchess, and in my opinion, people wanted to believe in her, it was a function of nostalgia, of longing for the past and for there being a survivor of the Imperial Family's murder, when the facts pointed in a totally different direction.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 22, 2008, 12:34:11 PM


It does seem possible to me that the entire 'rape on the Rus' rumor was invented and spread to back up AA's claim (I mean in recent years, not AA herself.)

By whom? You are the only person talking about rapes and what have you, just as you loudly proclaim your delight in the demise of Anna Anderson conversation while running a website on her and mentioning her in every post.
You're certainly right about one thing - to the best of my limited knowledge on her, FS never claimed that Anastasia became pregnant as a result of anything that happened on this boat, so the connection betwen that dialogue (which concerns mainly Olga and no suggestion of rape) and AA is one which exists nowhere except in the imagination of people with a fanatical interest in Anna Anderson.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 22, 2008, 12:46:00 PM


It does seem possible to me that the entire 'rape on the Rus' rumor was invented and spread to back up AA's claim (I mean in recent years, not AA herself.)

By whom? You are the only person talking about rapes and what have you, just as you loudly proclaim your delight in the demise of Anna Anderson conversation while running a website on her and mentioning her in every post.

Not every post, only the ones where it's appropriate to the subject. I am not getting into the background on that story, I'm sure everyone here, even you, knows it all too well.

Quote
You're certainly right about one thing - to the best of my limited knowledge on her, FS never claimed that Anastasia became pregnant as a result of anything that happened on this boat, so the connection betwen that dialogue (which concerns mainly Olga and no suggestion of rape) and AA is one which exists nowhere except in the imagination of people with a fanatical interest in Anna Anderson.

That is true, she never did, which always made me think it was pointless.

I did, however, read one account of AA claiming to have had relations with a Bolshevik soldier while in capitivity,  maybe this was her way of explaining the pregnancy? Hopefully no one was foolish enough to believe she'd gotten pregnant by Tchiakovsky on the trip, the baby wouldn't have even been viable by Dec.! (but I do think I've heard that one, too)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 22, 2008, 12:51:21 PM


It does seem possible to me that the entire 'rape on the Rus' rumor was invented and spread to back up AA's claim (I mean in recent years, not AA herself.)

By whom? You are the only person talking about rapes and what have you, just as you loudly proclaim your delight in the demise of Anna Anderson conversation while running a website on her and mentioning her in every post.

Not every post, only the ones where it's appropriate to the subject. I am not getting into the background on that story, I'm sure everyone here, even you, knows it all too well.


I don't actually - and had rather not get involved.....Excuse me my momentary lapse of cool - you have your interests as you wish... :) I just was recalling when I previously was here in 2004 getting frustrated that it didn't seem possible to talk about Ernst Ludwig's putative trip to Russia without it being about AA for you - though the questoins are in my view separate, and people who have written on EL in this context do not have to be at all interested in AA, necessarily
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on January 23, 2008, 10:26:26 PM
Where is the hard evidence of any trip to Russia by the last Tsarina's brother, the Grand Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt? The answer is there in none whatsoever. The so-called "evidence" comes from the proven imposter Anderson who was committed to asylums on more than one occasion. As such her opinions have no validity. She wasn't who she claimed to be. This has been scientifically proven. It's time for the gross mistruths to stop as this peculiar woman did countless harm to many living by her preposterous claim and also deeply insulted the memory of the real Grand Duchess Anastasia by connecting it to her bizarre behaviour. It's time Anderson was relegated to the garbage bin of history. She was as Romanov as a Pugachev and he was executed for his impudence. Anderson got off lightly by comparison. 
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 23, 2008, 10:49:37 PM
It's really funny how so may AA supporters use the 'secret trip' to Russia as 'dropping the bomb' which caused Ernie to go ballistic and set out to destroy her by framing her to be FS (whom she really was, but they say it was only made up by Ernie) because she 'knew' about the trip. Thanks to a German girl who posted here, I have found out that there was a book published in Germany in 1922 that alleged the trip, so her saying it in 1925 (probably because she or her supporters had seen the book) was certainly no big shock that led him to attack AA as AA supporters like to tell you.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 24, 2008, 08:01:20 AM
Where is the hard evidence of any trip to Russia by the last Tsarina's brother, the Grand Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt? The answer is there in none whatsoever. The so-called "evidence" comes from the proven imposter Anderson who was committed to asylums on more than one occasion.

There is hard evidence that the trip or something smilar was at least contemplated at the highest levels. The evidence has nothing whatsoever to do with Anna Anderson, as even Annie now realises, and even in 1915 Berlin found it necessary amidst a storm of rumour to deny that the visit had taken place.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 24, 2008, 12:17:02 PM
Where is the hard evidence of any trip to Russia by the last Tsarina's brother, the Grand Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt? The answer is there in none whatsoever. The so-called "evidence" comes from the proven imposter Anderson who was committed to asylums on more than one occasion.

There is hard evidence that the trip or something smilar was at least contemplated at the highest levels. The evidence has nothing whatsoever to do with Anna Anderson, as even Annie now realises, and even in 1915 Berlin found it necessary amidst a storm of rumour to deny that the visit had taken place.

Even IF the trip DID happen which is unlikely, there was still the book "In the Face of the Revolution" (B. Himmelstjerna, "Im Angesicht der Revolution", 1922, the publisher is Steeler) that openly accused Ernie of making the trip and claiming to have facts to back it up. This book existed THREE years before AA mentioned it. It's highly probable that AA and/or one of her supporters saw the story in the book and used it. This does NOT mean AA knew anything special or that she was in Russia. The revelation of the existence of this book completely destroys the alleged 'bomb' 'how did she know' part of the AA charade.

To put it plainly: AA/FS and/or her supporters learned of this alleged trip from the 1922 book and tried to use it to 'prove' she was in Russia in 1916.

(this does not mean I 'now realize' the trip happend, I'm only giving evidence that the rumor of the story existed prior to AA telling about it, so this proves AA wasn't  privy to any special secret or' inside information' 'only AN would know' as supporters like to claim.)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 24, 2008, 12:25:27 PM
Where is the hard evidence of any trip to Russia by the last Tsarina's brother, the Grand Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt? The answer is there in none whatsoever. The so-called "evidence" comes from the proven imposter Anderson who was committed to asylums on more than one occasion.

There is hard evidence that the trip or something smilar was at least contemplated at the highest levels. The evidence has nothing whatsoever to do with Anna Anderson, as even Annie now realises, and even in 1915 Berlin found it necessary amidst a storm of rumour to deny that the visit had taken place.

Even IF the trip DID happen which is unlikely, there was still the book "In the Face of the Revolution" (B. Himmelstjerna, "Im Angesicht der Revolution", 1922, the publisher is Steeler) that openly accused Ernie of making the trip and claiming to have facts to back it up. This book existed THREE years before AA mentioned it. It's highly probable that AA and/or one of her supporters saw the story in the book and used it. This does NOT mean AA knew anything special or that she was in Russia. The revelation of the existence of this book completely destroys the alleged 'bomb' 'how did she know' part of the AA charade.

(this does not mean I 'now realize' the trip happend, I'm only giving evidence that the rumor of the story existed prior to AA telling about it, so this proves AA wasn't  privy to any special secret or' inside information' 'only AN would know' as supporters like to claim.)

Let me be clear about this: I do not know whether the trip took place or not. The point I am trying over and over again to make is that THE DISCUSSION and THE EVIDENCE FOR OR AGAINST should not involve AA, and her knowledge of THE DISCUSSION concerning the trip proves nothing for her.

Man......
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 24, 2008, 01:24:55 PM
Let me be clear about this: I do not know whether the trip took place or not. The point I am trying over and over again to make is that THE DISCUSSION and THE EVIDENCE FOR OR AGAINST should not involve AA, and her knowledge of THE DISCUSSION concerning the trip proves nothing for her.

Man......

I think the reason Annie keeps bringing AA into this, is because AA supporters have tried to use this alleged trip as another proof that AA was who she claimed she was.

In any case, this is a thread about AA - not about Ernst's trip to Russia - so any mention of AA in connection to the subject is appropriate.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 24, 2008, 03:07:46 PM
Let me be clear about this: I do not know whether the trip took place or not. The point I am trying over and over again to make is that THE DISCUSSION and THE EVIDENCE FOR OR AGAINST should not involve AA, and her knowledge of THE DISCUSSION concerning the trip proves nothing for her.

Man......

I think the reason Annie keeps bringing AA into this, is because AA supporters have tried to use this alleged trip as another proof that AA was who she claimed she was.



Bingo.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Janet Ashton on January 25, 2008, 02:23:08 AM
Let me be clear about this: I do not know whether the trip took place or not. The point I am trying over and over again to make is that THE DISCUSSION and THE EVIDENCE FOR OR AGAINST should not involve AA, and her knowledge of THE DISCUSSION concerning the trip proves nothing for her.

Man......

I think the reason Annie keeps bringing AA into this, is because AA supporters have tried to use this alleged trip as another proof that AA was who she claimed she was.

Yes, I think I got that....

In any case, this is a thread about AA - not about Ernst's trip to Russia - so any mention of AA in connection to the subject is appropriate.


Which is exactly why I raised it here rather than in one of the EL threads where it has been raised many times before, according to what I have come across and remember

Can we drop this now, please?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: dmitri on January 25, 2008, 05:37:51 AM
Yes the sheer myth of the Grand Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt visiting Russia during world war one should very much be dropped, completely. It is utter rubbish as is the whole fabricated nonsense created by Schankowska/Tchiakovsky/Anderson/Manahan. She had nothing to do with Russian history or the Romanovs although she must go down as one of the greatest frauds and spongers of all time. 
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 25, 2008, 06:31:45 AM


Can we drop this now, please?

The reason the trip is being discussed now is because the subject was raised by Cody in the "photograph' thread:


What shocks me the most on Anna Anderson was that she knew that Grand Duke Ernest was at Tsarskoye Selo around 1916.  That was something not many Polish peasants would have known.  How then did Anna Anderson know that? 

Even though this isn't the right thread, I don't see anything wrong with it being discussed on this forum since it does involve AA. There is also a thread just about the trip, not AA, in the "Hesse-Darmstadts" forum. I know a lot of people would disagree or dislike this, but I find it impossible to separate the two (AA and the alleged trip) because every single time the trip is mentioned, it's usually in connection with AA's claim, or AA inevitably comes up. Keeping them as two different discussions is impossible, at least around here.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on January 25, 2008, 09:46:14 AM
Annie,

I disagree with you, and must agree with Janet A. It is EASY to keep the two discussions separate.  One can easily discuss the non-existence of the alleged trip of EL to the AP without ever mentioning AA... Try it.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on January 25, 2008, 10:08:10 AM
Annie,

I disagree with you, and must agree with Janet A. It is EASY to keep the two discussions separate.  One can easily discuss the non-existence of the alleged trip of EL to the AP without ever mentioning AA... Try it.

It has been tried-many times, even in the Hessian forum. That's why I know AA will inevitably come into the conversation (and not because of me), the issue is addressed, somebody says keep AA out of it, etc. but it still pops up, every time. I'm not saying it should be that way, or I want it that way, only that it is that way.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,91.0.html
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Cody on January 25, 2008, 01:01:58 PM
Just so everyone can know, I made a comment about the trip in the discussion on the photographs.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Puppylove on March 02, 2008, 08:42:47 PM

I do believe if AA/FS could see us now, she'd be very disappointed!

Another issue on the subject of 'big deal,' I do have a hard time understanding why some people want to hold onto belief in AA so badly, why it means so much to them in their personal lives. Even though she's FS, it's still an interesting story! Like I've said before, there are men who get slapped with paying child support for a kid they don't want for 18 years because of DNA testing, and people put in prison due to DNA testing, yet I have never once heard any of them, though it affects their lives directly, yell foul, switch, or come up with conspiracy theories. Even OJ said the DNA was his but planted, not switched. I just don't get why it's so important to hang onto some faint hope and fantasy that she was AN. Maybe a believer can explain this for us.

Or extremely flattered to be remembered at all. You can't pose for pictures in a feather boa and then pretend you don't want publicity.

This woman should not be affecting anyone's personal life. Annie, it's cool to believe in a cause, but at the end of the day you're fighting battles with internet stalkers and other psychological case studies you cannot reason with. Meanwhile the war itself has already been won.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Cody on March 02, 2008, 08:48:36 PM
Annie, it's cool to believe in a cause, but at the end of the day you're fighting battles with internet stalkers and other psychological case studies you cannot reason with. Meanwhile the war itself has already been won.

Pretty much.  Unless it can be proven that the DNA test are wrong, those tests are the final word.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 03, 2008, 11:44:33 AM
I just have to add one more thing before I go to bed. I have spent today being stalked by an obsessed AA supporter who has been trolling my guestbooks. The IPs show that 16 of the 18 troll comments I got were from the same address, but they all used different names. Some of them were rude, some bizarre, others, almost threatening. I have had to shut both guestbooks down for now. I seriously don't know why this person is so extreme and upset, other than that I dilligently fight the AA myth. Apparently, this person wants AA's myth to go on so badly they cannot stand me or my site. I had to add this because it's another aspect of 'what's the big deal' and the way people sometimes behave because of this legend.

As creepy as it's been, I suppose I should take it as a compliment that they must see my site as some kind of threat to the belief they want to perpetuate. If it were useless, they wouldn't be so aggressive to attack it. Who? I have my suspects, most likely one recently banned from my site. This is, apparently, what the AA story does to some people.

That is very creepy Annie, but it just goes to show you how unstable some people out there are. It's probably just one person posting from different IP addresses. You should just ignore them.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on March 03, 2008, 02:43:37 PM
I just have to add one more thing before I go to bed. I have spent today being stalked by an obsessed AA supporter who has been trolling my guestbooks. The IPs show that 16 of the 18 troll comments I got were from the same address, but they all used different names. Some of them were rude, some bizarre, others, almost threatening. I have had to shut both guestbooks down for now. I seriously don't know why this person is so extreme and upset, other than that I dilligently fight the AA myth. Apparently, this person wants AA's myth to go on so badly they cannot stand me or my site. I had to add this because it's another aspect of 'what's the big deal' and the way people sometimes behave because of this legend.

As creepy as it's been, I suppose I should take it as a compliment that they must see my site as some kind of threat to the belief they want to perpetuate. If it were useless, they wouldn't be so aggressive to attack it. Who? I have my suspects, most likely one recently banned from my site. This is, apparently, what the AA story does to some people.

That is very creepy Annie, but it just goes to show you how unstable some people out there are. It's probably just one person posting from different IP addresses. You should just ignore them.

Actually I got trolled by 13 different names with the same IP address! :o
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 03, 2008, 02:44:49 PM
Actually I got trolled by 13 different names with the same IP address! :o

LOL, what a psycho!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on March 03, 2008, 10:15:06 PM
When Richard Schweitzer was posting here (and for those of you who didn't know him) he is the husband of Gleb Botkin's daughter Marina and although Marina has passed away Richard is still alive and kicking (kicking about DNA last I heard).

I asked Richard if he had a copy of AA's will.  He said he did but that he would not post it.  I thought that perhaps something in the will would give away her mental status.  Probably a long shot, but just a feeling that perhaps she might have given some insight into her mental status and her own beliefs about herself by something that was bequeathed in the will.  Or by that whole "being of sound mind and body" thing.  I don't know.

Schweitzer is a very good example of a supporter who is rabid, after all he was married to the daughter of the man whom we all feel might have been "feeding" information to AA or at least been a part of a group who could do that.

IMHO, I think that those who take this very personally and let it ruin their lives with angst against those who don't believe just believe in a "cause" and this is their particular cause 'celebre'.  They just don't want or like to be told that they are wrong.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Mari on March 04, 2008, 03:03:51 AM
 I have posted on a couple of threads that have bitterness and ill will toward a Book called FOTR written by a couple of Historians and I need to know how to fix my "new replies" under " in your posts"  so that I please un-post from these threads.... if someone will just tell me how! Oh, and the AA stuff too!  As a Historian I do not wish to be involved with this level of critiquing.  Thank you in advance!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on March 04, 2008, 05:59:39 AM
I have posted on a couple of threads that have bitterness and ill will toward a Book called FOTR written by a couple of Historians and I need to know how to fix my "new replies" under " in your posts"  so that I please un-post from these threads.... if someone will just tell me how! Oh, and the AA stuff too!  As a Historian I do not wish to be involved with this level of critiquing.  Thank you in advance!

A few years back, there was a lot of posting and deleting by several people, and some mass deleting that rendered some threads pointless and beyond comprehension.Because so many threads were ruined, the admins took away the power of the average poster to delete, and I agree with that choice. They also took away the indefinite time limit on editing. If this isn't done, anyone can go back and change anything, leaving another person's post look either rude or nonsensical. The new rules are everyone has fifteen minutes to change their mind and edit a post, then it becomes permenant. So we can't 'unpost' anything after that.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Cody on March 04, 2008, 08:55:29 AM
When Richard Schweitzer was posting here (and for those of you who didn't know him) he is the husband of Gleb Botkin's daughter Marina and although Marina has passed away Richard is still alive and kicking (kicking about DNA last I heard).

I asked Richard if he had a copy of AA's will.  He said he did but that he would not post it.  I thought that perhaps something in the will would give away her mental status.  Probably a long shot, but just a feeling that perhaps she might have given some insight into her mental status and her own beliefs about herself by something that was bequeathed in the will.  Or by that whole "being of sound mind and body" thing.  I don't know.

I'm not particularly shocked by that.  You generally don't post wills.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Puppylove on March 04, 2008, 12:07:53 PM
When Richard Schweitzer was posting here (and for those of you who didn't know him) he is the husband of Gleb Botkin's daughter Marina and although Marina has passed away Richard is still alive and kicking (kicking about DNA last I heard).

I asked Richard if he had a copy of AA's will.  He said he did but that he would not post it.  I thought that perhaps something in the will would give away her mental status.  Probably a long shot, but just a feeling that perhaps she might have given some insight into her mental status and her own beliefs about herself by something that was bequeathed in the will.  Or by that whole "being of sound mind and body" thing.  I don't know.

I'm not particularly shocked by that.  You generally don't post wills.

Not shocked either, but it could have made for an interesting read, if only to see the wording re sound mind and body. I'd be surprised if it were any kind of smoking gun though; if it were it wouldn't have made any sense for the Schweitzers to pursue the DNA test, in my opinion.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 04, 2008, 12:13:13 PM
I'd be surprised if it were any kind of smoking gun though; if it were it wouldn't have made any sense for the Schweitzers to pursue the DNA test, in my opinion.

I agree. I think Schweitzer is pretty sincere in his belief in AA and if there was something in that will that blatantly says 'I'm a fraud' (what could that possibly be?) then I am assuming Richard Schweitzer would have caught on... I mean the man is a lawyer after all...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on March 04, 2008, 12:14:44 PM




Not shocked either, but it could have made for an interesting read, if only to see the wording re sound mind and body. I'd be surprised if it were any kind of smoking gun though; if it were it wouldn't have made any sense for the Schweitzers to pursue the DNA test, in my opinion.



No not that, but there might be something else that may be taken as 'incriminating' by her detractors.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 04, 2008, 12:47:46 PM




Not shocked either, but it could have made for an interesting read, if only to see the wording re sound mind and body. I'd be surprised if it were any kind of smoking gun though; if it were it wouldn't have made any sense for the Schweitzers to pursue the DNA test, in my opinion.

No not that, but there might be something else that may be taken as 'incriminating' by her detractors.

Hmmm, like what?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on March 04, 2008, 01:00:09 PM




Not shocked either, but it could have made for an interesting read, if only to see the wording re sound mind and body. I'd be surprised if it were any kind of smoking gun though; if it were it wouldn't have made any sense for the Schweitzers to pursue the DNA test, in my opinion.

No not that, but there might be something else that may be taken as 'incriminating' by her detractors.

Hmmm, like what?

Maybe like who she left things to and what was said, involving her supporters. There has to be something that Schweitzer feels it's best we not see.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 04, 2008, 01:37:44 PM
Maybe like who she left things to ...

Do you think she may have willed something to the Schankowskis? lol
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 04, 2008, 02:19:21 PM
Maybe like who she left things to ...

Do you think she may have willed something to the Schankowskis? lol

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Maybe she willed something to the local creamatorium for cats? So other cat owners aren't forced to cremate there pets in the living room fire, enabling them to have a decent cremation instead?

Maybe she willed something to Martha Jefferson Hospital to keep her bit of DNA quite?  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 04, 2008, 02:27:11 PM
What did Anna Anderson have exactly to leave to anyone?

In any case, I don't think her will would be a smoking gun for anything... I can't imagine Schweitzer posting it here no matter what it contained...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 04, 2008, 02:47:51 PM
BTW, the other day I was listening to one of those Teaching Company lectures about Tudor history, and they mentioned Perkin Warbeck who was a pretender to the English throne claiming to be Richard Duke of York. What struck me was that apparently this guy was just walking down the street one day and suddenly someone "recognized" him as the long missing Richard (sounds sort of familiar?)... Warbeck accepted the identity and soon the foreign powers who wanted to overthrow Henry Tudor (VII) were supporting him... The Scottish king even allowed him to marry his niece (relative?), and other royals gathered military support in his name, they wanted him to take over the crown from Henry VII and rule England as Richard IV... All the while knowing that he was a fraud (the son of a printer or something along those lines - I think)... So who knows why people do what they do and what motivates them... It's much the same with Anna Anderson, albeit the stakes were not as high, but people had different motives to support her, ranging from sincere belief to knowing full well she was a fraud but having alterior motives... We'll never know.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Puppylove on March 04, 2008, 02:59:49 PM
LOL at leaving something to the cat crematorium or the FS relatives....

I believe a probated will may become public record depending on state law, but I assume her detractors would already have gone that route if it were possible. I've never seen photos of AA's home, just comments on the appalling filth it was kept in, so anything she left behind may have gone the way of the poor cats.

As Helen points out, motive remains an eternal question here, second only to mental health questions in my opinion.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 04, 2008, 05:55:14 PM
... second only to mental health questions...

Well, that's a separate ball game altogether! ;-)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on March 06, 2008, 02:48:29 PM
I didn't really think that there would be a codicil that said point blank, "I am a fraud.  And I leave all of my fraudulent writings and evidence (including those ears) to the next person to claim to be a Romanov."

And wills can be published in newspapers and used to be as a matter of course.  And they are public record after they have been probated, so Richard had no reason not to post a copy unless there was something that would make us all sit up and "gasp".

So what would be "the big deal" about him posting it?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Cody on March 06, 2008, 03:22:19 PM

And wills can be published in newspapers and used to be as a matter of course.  And they are public record after they have been probated, so Richard had no reason not to post a copy unless there was something that would make us all sit up and "gasp".

So what would be "the big deal" about him posting it?

I'm sure that wills could be posted in the paper, if someone wanted them to, and in that case they would certainly be public.  However, I am unfamiliar with laws about wills become public information, unless it has been allowed by whomever is in charge of the said person's estate.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on March 06, 2008, 03:33:42 PM
I think if you die in VA all wills are  public record. I know that Albermarle co. wills are public record, because my ancestors are from there and I was able to find and look up their wills on microfilm before the days of the internet. All you have to do is go to the courthouse and ask. Maybe one of us can do that with AA's. (Albermarle county is the county around Charlottesville, VA where AA died. VA is, I think, the only state where cities are indepedant of the counties, but I really think they're all public record- unless there was some reason and some way Schweitzer was able to conceal it)

edit: Okay I just called the Charlottesville courthouse records dept. They told me that all wills filed there are public record BUT wills do not have to be filed so some might not be there. She said they are in books, not online, and they don't search for you, you have to come in person. So what this means is, you can go there and look for it, but it might not be there.(I asked the lady if she ever heard of AA and she said no. I explained the story to her and she still said no. Imagine that!)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Cody on March 06, 2008, 04:55:58 PM


I asked the lady if she ever heard of AA and she said no. I explained the story to her and she still said no. Imagine that!

I would figure anyone from that area would know who Anna Anderson is.  But in any case, I suppose if anyone is around that area, and has some time to kill, maybe they could visit the courthouse just to check.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Puppylove on March 06, 2008, 04:58:10 PM
So what would be "the big deal" about him posting it?

This is only my guess, but maybe he thinks that it's nobody's business and is trying to be respectful of her privacy. If the document were in my hands I'd have it up for sale on ebay so fast it would make your head spin. And then I'd be all bummed when no one cared enough to bid on it.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Terence on March 06, 2008, 08:26:22 PM
I'm sure that wills could be posted in the paper, if someone wanted them to, and in that case they would certainly be public.  However, I am unfamiliar with laws about wills become public information, unless it has been allowed by whomever is in charge of the said person's estate.

As a matter of course wills, letters of administration and probate records are all public legal documents in the US.  It's not whether the distribution of an estate CAN be made public, it is public unless other methods are taken to keep it private.

As others have mentioned, you can find old wills and other estate filings all over the net used for genealogical purposes.

My question is how do you NOT file a will?  I would think in order for it to have legal effect it would have to be filed.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Terence on March 06, 2008, 10:08:26 PM
BTW, the other day I was listening to one of those Teaching Company lectures about Tudor history, and they mentioned Perkin Warbeck who was a pretender to the English throne claiming to be Richard Duke of York. What struck me was that apparently this guy was just walking down the street one day and suddenly someone "recognized" him as the long missing Richard (sounds sort of familiar?)... Warbeck accepted the identity and soon the foreign powers who wanted to overthrow Henry Tudor (VII) were supporting him... The Scottish king even allowed him to marry his niece (relative?), and other royals gathered military support in his name, they wanted him to take over the crown from Henry VII and rule England as Richard IV... All the while knowing that he was a fraud (the son of a printer or something along those lines - I think)... So who knows why people do what they do and what motivates them... It's much the same with Anna Anderson, albeit the stakes were not as high, but people had different motives to support her, ranging from sincere belief to knowing full well she was a fraud but having alterior motives... We'll never know.

And to go backwards and confuse this thread further :)...

This really jumped out at me.  I've no aquaintance w/ the company, but this just sounds like the shoddy history people are complaining about here.  That's a very simplistic, one-sided view of the story.  What's the source for their statement?  Unless I'm mistaken it can only be Warbeck's "confession" after he was at the mercy of Henry VII, who had him executed.  Henry had a great talent for getting his prisoners to tell the "truth" just before he killed them.

Using the official court pronouncements of Henry VII as historical fact can be a bit problematic.  You see he predated his reign to a day before Bosworth (when his troops killed the monarch and he assumed the throne) to make all that fought for the reigning king Richard III to be traitors!  Nice trick...and you think politicians today are dirty?

Henry also ordered all copies of the parliamentary act Titulus Regis, giving Richard the throne, BURNED...destroyed, unprecedented in English history.

Yeah, I'll trust Henry's version of things. :)

I've no idea the truth about Perkin Warbeck.  But there is the slight chance he was Richard of York, unlike AA's charade.

What we have generally accepted today is the story told by the victor, and he doesn't seem too honest.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on March 06, 2008, 10:33:25 PM
I had forgotten about Perkin Warbeck.  You see aside from the study of world history from 1860 to 1917, I have these other smaller interests and Richard III is one of them.  I have always thought that he was horribly black balled by Henry VII.  Who can believe anything that Henry VII said about Richard III?

But back too AA and her will.  Puppylove, you might be surprised just how much an AA supporter would pay for that document!  :-)

Can you just imagine?  Someone like Peter Kurth?  And definitely James Blair Lovell (of course he would have to be still alive).

Annie - if the woman that you spoke to in Charlottesville was 30 or under, it is no surprise that she would not know about AA/FS.  After all AA/FS died in 1983.  That was 24 years ago and anyone under even 35 would probably have been too young to notice.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Puppylove on March 06, 2008, 11:02:57 PM

But back too AA and her will.  Puppylove, you might be surprised just how much an AA supporter would pay for that document!  :-)

Can you just imagine?  Someone like Peter Kurth?  And definitely James Blair Lovell (of course he would have to be still alive).


You're right of course Alixz, there's a buyer for everything in this wacky world. I'd be surprised if Kurth doesn't have a copy already, he's probably the beneficiary. :)

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on March 06, 2008, 11:23:18 PM

Annie - if the woman that you spoke to in Charlottesville was 30 or under, it is no surprise that she would not know about AA/FS.  After all AA/FS died in 1983.  That was 24 years ago and anyone under even 35 would probably have been too young to notice.

That's another reason it surprised me, she sounded solidly middle-aged to older. There are teens here who know the story. I guess she was just never interested, or maybe she didn't live in the area back then. It's hard for those of us who see so much of it to believe some people don't know (or care) about AA. Maybe they're the lucky ones!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 07, 2008, 01:50:10 PM
What's the source for their statement? 

No idea, but he is a very respected professor of English history (I have to get back to you on his name if you want it), but I did notice during some lectures that he did make a few minor mistakes... Minor ones...  I doubt Warbeck was really Duke of York though, that's too much for me to believe... Hopefully the DNA tests they are planning to do on the remains of the two boys found at the Tower will put an end to that theory... In any case, I only posted this to make a point about Anna Anderson and the "what's the big deal" angle, since this is not a British history thread.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on March 10, 2008, 07:08:09 PM
Actually I got trolled by 13 different names with the same IP address! :o

LOL, what a psycho!

They sure are! Now they're back, the same person who trolled my guestbooks joined my Anastasia forum (where there is no AA talk) and trolled it and insulted me and was rude to nice members. So I've already had to shut down 2 guestbooks and my AA site, now they're so desperate to attack me they stalk me on the peaceful AN forum! It's disturbing how this person has let their obsession with AA do this to them!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Halinka on June 18, 2008, 06:29:17 PM
I rarely wander into this section, but in light of recent forum drama, I have a question:

What is it about Anna Anderson that provokes such strong and varied reactions?

As someone who's more or less indifferent to the AA case, I'm truly curious. What is it about her that makes people willing to devote hundreds of hours and thousands of posts to proving or disproving her claim? How does she manage to evoke such passion from both sides of the argument? Most of all, why can't anyone seem to agree to disagree -- what harm does it do if someone chooses to believe the "wrong" side of the case?




I'd very much appreciate it if we could PLEASE try not to turn this into another debate about the woman's identity. I don't want to know why you're on whichever side of the case -- I only want to know why you feel so strongly about her in general.

She was the right person, at the right time and place... The funny part is I have not met anyone that belives Anna Anderson was truly the Grand Duschess. 
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: FadedDreams on June 23, 2008, 12:28:17 AM
Hey everyone!

I've been reading articles and watching documentaries, and I personally think that Anderson was not Anastasia. I looked at photos of both girls and saw no similiarities, and I've read about Anderson's personality. She was said to have been mentally unstable and impossible to get along with.

That sounds nothing like Anastasia, unless someone passes it off as trauma from seeing the murder of the family. But Anastasia was a strong girl. She might have gotten over the trauma sooner or later.

Another thing, at first I was excited that maybe she was Anastasia and had survived, but when I read that she couldn't speak or read a scrap of Russian, red flags went up. And then I read that when she was asked to describe some personal things, like the family and the interior of the house, she was evasive or became too emotional to speak about it.

Riiiight.

and wouldn't she try to get back in touch with her family if she was Anastasia? That just didn't seem right either.

Now, as for wondering how she was able to remember some things, I read in an article that Gleb Botkin, son of the Dr. Botkin that was murdered with the family was behind her memories and knew a lot about the Romanov family. Coincidence? I think not. He probably told her all sorts of things, things that only somone who knew the family would know.

To make a long story short, DNA doesn't lie. And they have found the two remaining bodies of the Romanov family anyway. Bodies that are claimed to be Alexei and Maria. So, even though she claimed to be Anastasia, we now know she was lying.

Sad? Yes. And believe me! I wish that the surviving princess story was true too! But it isn't. :(
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: mikeycoleman on June 23, 2008, 12:34:09 PM
Anna Anderson really looked NOTHING like GD Anastasia.  Look at a photo of yourself from a year and a half ago and compare it to now.  Not much has really changed, huh?  Compare yourself with older pics.  Still looks like you?

I know it isn't forensics, but it is pretty dramatic how similar we remain through our lives, even with trauma.

Mikey
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Stassy on June 23, 2008, 09:25:15 PM
hi all,

i'm brand new to the forum and quite new to the world of Romanov discussions.

i have a question regarding Anna Anderson. i never believed that AA was AN and DNA evidence has gone on to confirm that. however, i am still trying to figure out where i stand on the whole AA is FS issue and would like to do some research of my own. one thing that i have been wondering is where the name Anna Anderson came from. from what i understand, AA was pulled from a canal in Berlin and was refered to as 'an unidentified' woman. she later claimed to be Tatiana and then Anastasia. nothing i have read has mentioned when she became known as Anna. was this a name given to her by doctors? i'm very curious about who AA really was (and quite open to the possibility that she was in fact FS) and would love it if anyone could help.

also, i apologize if this has been discussed somewhere else. i did try searching the forum before posting, but couldn't find the information i was looking for.

stassy
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on June 24, 2008, 06:12:24 AM
It seems she chose this name after she went to the United States...Maybe because it sounds american.
At each time, I read sites about her, they don't say  why she called herself Anna Anderson.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on June 24, 2008, 08:24:27 PM
I have heard different stories, that it was the German equal of 'Jane Doe', but that didn't turn out to be true. One of her supporters made it up for her, when she came to the US like you say. I think it was originally "Mrs. Eugene Anderson" after Eugene Botkin(Gleb's father)? Also I think when she was with the Von Kliests, they called her Anna as a nickname for Anastasia, if that's how the first name originated.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on June 24, 2008, 09:08:27 PM
Hi Annie,

Didn't Gleb Botkin have something to do with it? I might be wrong but I thought it was he when he took her to the USA and gave her an American sounding name when she booked into a hotel, I think I read somewhere.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 25, 2008, 01:12:52 AM
I recall that reservations were made in the name of "Anna Anderson" at a Garden City, New York hotel by Rachmaninov.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Foxglove on June 25, 2008, 01:26:41 AM
I remember reading once that the name 'Anna Anderson' was used to check under at hotels in order to avoid reporters and the curious public, like celebrities do today.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Foxglove on June 25, 2008, 02:05:59 AM
I have to wonder— did the government even care? Moreover, which government would we be talking about? Russian? German? United States? British?

Let us suppose for a moment that DNA tests proved that Anna was indeed Anastasia as she claimed. Then what? Her supporters would feel vindicated, no doubt; a few books would be written; a movie-of-the-week would be filmed for Lifetime Television for Women, while the faithful and religious would go to Castle Seeon to pray and scatter flower petals at her memorial plaque.

Now, let us suppose that Anna was still alive when DNA testing proved she was the Grand Duchess. Her supporters would feel vindicated, while Anna would be “reunited” with any remaining living relatives. There would be a demand for many interviews, starting with Geraldo Rivera traveling to Ekaterinburg to try to find the remaining two bodies. A movie-of-the-week would be filmed for Lifetime Television for Women. More likely than not, Anna and Jack would continue to live in Charlottesville with their many pets, or they would try to move to a more secure abode in order to fend off reporters, the public, and Geraldo Rivera.

It would have been decades since that terrible night in 1917. Many people connected or affected by that tragedy would be long dead. There did not appear to be a royal fortune left to inherit (if there ever was in the first place), and it is extremely unlikely that Anna could reclaim the throne in Russia. As an elderly woman, her influence would have been limited to a royal title and a source of information about the family for historians (if her memory was still good enough). She had no heir (discounting the lost son given to the Romanian orphanage), and any money she possessed probably belonged to Jack. If anything, she would have been hounded by leeches trying to exploit her lineage and make a quick buck off her.

Overall, I think that if DNA testing was available in the early twenties or thirties, I could possibly believe that certain individuals would go to great lengths to cover up the true results, because it seems more believable that Anna would have posed a greater threat to the Russian communist government, or could have been used as a puppet by certain leaders (Adolf Hitler comes to mind) during WWII. Now, I find it hard to believe that any government would deem an old woman like Anna to pose such a danger that her DNA results had to be falsified. Such a theory would make a reasonable plot for a mystery novel, but appears feeble in real life, unless Anna's supporters- who hold fast to this government conspiracy theory- know some secret information that Anna possessed that could bring down a whole nation to its knees.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on June 25, 2008, 07:03:42 AM
Hello everyone,

Anna Anderson was not in my view Grand Duchess Anatasia for a number of reasons.

Firstly she did not look like Anastasia and in particular her lips were quite differant as were the position of her eyes as I recall. She had some marks that were the same, a mole scar on her shoulder for example, which are very intresting but does not prove that she was who she says she was. Her behavior was dreadful to everyone including those who tried to help her and was often thrown out of homes as people could not cope with her. Anastasia whilst an imp was well mannered to the extreme.

She seemed to have used German as her main language and even when she spoke English with a heavy German accent but Anastasia spoke English perfectly as she had used this language with her Mother from the day she was born. However, there seems the argument that she could not speak Russian but Anastasia had of course.

When Grand Duchess Olga came to see her she said in Germain "ist dat die tante" (excuse my spelling) which means is that the Aunt where as you would say is that my Aunt is she was Anastasia in my view. Why use the third person?

Speaking about Grand Duchess Olga she stated that Anna Anderson was not her niece. For me that is enough. Olga had known Anastasia since she was born and was very close to her. However, as she denied Anna Anderson she and others in the Romanov family would pay a terrible price as Anna Anderson then trashed her reputation and that of others either by her self or through Glen Botkin.

Prince Yussipov (again excuse spelling) also stated that she Anna Anderson was not Anastasia and he also paid the price by Anna Anderson stating that he tried to kill her, a story no one believes.

Also the Baroness, a lady in waiting to the Empress, denied her and Anna Anderson then said that this lady was  a traitor to the family by revealing where the family had hidden jewels and also suggested that Money sent to rescue them was taken by her. This was a disgusting lie as this lady had remained faithful to the family and risked her life by staying behind and got out of Russia by the skin of her teeth. If any money went missing it would have been in my view the husband of Maria Rasputin who had taken it. It has taken many years to try and repair this damage done to the Baroness and others by the disgusting lies spread by Anna Anderson.

Her memories were not always correct. By the time she was pulled out of the canal there was already a great deal of information about the family in the public domain including a book that gave a great deal of information. In my view she was tutored and also picked up information quickly from others.

Glen Botkin came later but in my view is one of the most important people in the story. He had known the family, the yacht and Tsarkoe Selo and Livadia. He could have given information and it was he who tried to spread her as the Grand Duchess. However, he seems to have been more concerned with wealth and hence the corporation he set up to trace and claim funds with a % for him. He tried very hard to trash the Imperial family in exile and in particular Grand Duchess Olga. He seems to have been a very nasty person in the extreme. As he had known the real Anastasia he must have know she was a fake as we do now from the DNA. Either that or he was the stupidest person ever to have walked the earth.

Moving on to DNA. It was the daughter of Botkin who supplied this for testing. I believe that she honestly believed her Father that Anna Anderson was Anastasia. However when the result came back she would not accept them and a theory of switches of samples was provided to explain why the DNA was not a match to the Imperial Family and of course was a match to a polish peasent woman who the Brother of Alexandra of Russia had stated in the 1920's or 30's that she was the Polish worker. We came full circle.

Mr Kurth provided a sample of hair that he said was Anna Anderson's and when this came back as a negative match he said that in fact it was not her hair in the first place. Any reputation he had at that point in my view disappears.

We know that there are bodies that lie in their grave that are the Imperial family. Two are missing - the son and one daughter either Maria or Anastasia. However, two more remains have been found and it seems that an anouncement is due to say that the DNA  matches that of the Imperial family and hence all members are accounted for. Therefore no survivors.

Whilst I do wish someone had survived I do not see how. To come out of that cellar alive would be difficult when you have been shot in the body many times, bayoneted and shot again this time in the head and your skull battered. It is this reason that I do not thin any one could have survived. The people charged with the murder were there for one thing only, the murder of the entire imperial family of Russia and their retainers. They were not there to save anyone and to do so would have been impossible in full sight of the others. They had already been warned about looting and being shot. Rescuing would not be possible.

Anna Anderson was a fake that did nothing but damage to innocent people over the years. It is time she was consigned to the trash can of history and those who supported her despite DNA and still cast aspersions on the reputations of people such as HM The Queen to this day. If Botkin were alive today he would be seen as a con man clean and simple. Lucky he is deceased as I for one would like to see his bones fed to the dogs of Yekaterinburg for what he tried to do to so many innocent people down the years and in particular to Grand Duchess Olga, a kind and Christian woman who did not deserve the malicious lies spread.



Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on June 25, 2008, 07:30:28 AM
I knew that Botkin accused Grand Duchess Olga A. to have renied AA just for money. But I didn't know this went so far.
It's really sad, poor Olga. She lived a difficult life.
In the AA case, the persons, who I trust most, are Olga A. & Gilliard.
These two are not the kind of person only interested in money. Gilliard was ready to go at Iekaterinburg with the Imperial Family.
Does anyone know if he suffered of the AA' case ?

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: StevenL on June 25, 2008, 01:05:49 PM
Anna Anderson was a fake that did nothing but damage to innocent people over the years. It is time she was consigned to the trash can of history

 ...   It would appear that she keeps bouncing into people's recycle bins instead.     : - )
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 25, 2008, 04:26:23 PM
I remember reading once that the name 'Anna Anderson' was used to check under at hotels in order to avoid reporters and the curious public, like celebrities do today.

Yes, when I worked in hotels in my younger days, celebrities always checked in under aliases. This was also an alias as AA was notorious in New York at the time, and it was to protect her privacy.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 30, 2008, 09:45:32 PM
Now that there is no further speculation even possible, with the confirmed discovery of the remains of Alexei and his sister, we have new rules and guidelines for this entire board.

This section is now dedicated strictly to the historical discussion of those who claimed to be survivors and is NOT to be used to dispute, press or argue that anyone DID survive.  They didn't, so take the conspiracy theories and revisionist plotting elsewhere.
I noticed a few posts about whether or not AA was ANR. I wanted to remind everyone of our "New Rules" as of August 2007 per the FA:


The discussion of whether Anna Manahan was FS may continue.  The discussion of Anna Manahan's CLAIMS may continue to examine them as part of history, the question of her having actually been ANR is totally closed.

The question of Heino Teinment et al is closed other than a historical discussion of the claims.

I direct all mods to please enforce these discussion guidelines.

Any questions, please drop me a PM or email

FA


Kindly respect the policy in your continued discussions about AA.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Mexjames on July 01, 2008, 02:44:03 PM
I don't think that any government in the world woud have gained anything by covering up or not this issue. The Bolsheviks became the rulers and the rogue state known as the Soviet Union was recognized by almost every country in the world. 

The only chance to restore the monarchy was Admiral Kolchak's White Army, and as much as they tried, they lost the war. 

By the time Mrs. Anderson was found in Berlin, the chances of the monarchy being restored were very small.  There was no army,  no money, and internally in Russia monarchists were certainly having a bad time, as everyone else under Communism. 

So even if conclusive evidence, without a shred of doubt, could have been produced to the effect that G.D. Anastasia was alive, I don't think that this would have gone any further than a nice wedding to some European royal.  Not having any assets but her name, God only knows if she would have even had an equal marriage, and her family might have fared like the Yussupovs, whose descendants are commoners now.

But the hard fact is that the missing bodies were recovered, and when they're buried, hopefully next to their loved ones and with all the respect to the rank they once had, the Romanov saga will come to an end.  I hope that those poor souls will rest in peace.

As far as I'm concerned, Mrs. Anderson, Mr. Tammet and others deserved some help in their time, but that didn't happen and they're now part of history's curiosities.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on July 04, 2008, 02:49:51 AM
Supposedly she adopted the name as people were naturally adverse to calling her Anastasia and she needed some sort of identity--heard this in the book or the movie or someplace.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on July 04, 2008, 03:22:23 PM
The funny part is I have not met anyone that belives Anna Anderson was truly the Grand Duschess. 

I have . And this person still thinks she is really the Grand Duchess, despise all that have been proved about her this last years.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 04, 2008, 03:54:22 PM
So have I, P.O. Still know a couple of die-hards.  But- I have not heard anything from them since the latest findings- wonder why?
 Some, however, were willing to admit not being  sure and now accept that it is over.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on July 04, 2008, 04:06:02 PM
So have I, P.O. Still know a couple of die-hards.  But- I have not heard anything from them since the latest findings- wonder why?

I have met this person after the results of the latest findings. He's a  friend of the conspiracy theories :)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 04, 2008, 07:46:22 PM
Supposedly she adopted the name as people were naturally adverse to calling her Anastasia and she needed some sort of identity--heard this in the book or the movie or someplace.

I know of no reason that this would be true. If she was the GD, very few people would have addressed her as "Anastasia", it would have been "Your Imperial Highness". Movies are not normally treasure troves of historically accurate information - and even most of the books discussing AA have many errors.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 05, 2008, 07:57:48 PM
So have I, P.O. Still know a couple of die-hards.  But- I have not heard anything from them since the latest findings- wonder why?

I have met this person after the results of the latest findings. He's a  friend of the conspiracy theories :)

I don't know anyone in real life who believes in AA, but I sure know some on the internet who do.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 05, 2008, 08:21:02 PM
No matter what one says,  some are just  too attached to the so-called "myth". I just stopped talking about it. One person I know is greatly in the belief that she is the great-grand-daughter of one of Ni2's  daughters. Well, this has been disproven to her many, may times, and she never tires of bringing it up in social occasions.  No one takes her seriously, but at times it is hard to be polite. Easy to just walk away. Otherwise, she is a very successful, well respected in her field and responsibly sane woman. I have known her for about 30 years, I guess, she has never changed her story. Not even now.
 Another fellow I know,also English,  is convinced he is  a descendant of Alexei [and, no, not the ones mentioned on this forum, a totally diffreent bird]. Again, quite bright, relatively successful, well liked and absorbed by this fantasy.  He still claims all the findings are  "conspiracy" and "fake"  and spends a fortune buying anything remotely connected to  the Romanovs to prove his "story". The guy could be my grand son!
 Some never give up, others just need something to believe in and a fantasy is better than reality to them.
 Let them be. As long as it harms no one.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2008, 08:42:29 AM
I know some just need to believe, but 'letting them be' would be fine it if it was only themselves they were hurting. However in the case of certain overly avid AA supporters, they go all over the web trying their best to plant doubts and discredit everything and claim 'the mystery will never end', 'going to run that FS thing into the ground if it's the last thing I do', and such nonsense. While most people either ignore them or take them for the zealots they are, and even question their sanity, it's sad that a few innocent information seekers fall for it and are misled. Allowing a myth proven false to be perpetuated on educational forums is wrong. I am glad that due to the new rules, this cannot happen here anymore, but it's still happening elsewhere. You would be surprised that while we accept the DNA results as fact, many people haven't heard of them or fall easily for the conspiracy theories. So as long as that type is out there crusading for converts, someone else must be behind them, telling the potential victims not to buy the snake oil. It's agggravating and I really dont' enjoy it, but it must be done.

In the case of these rare 'grandchild of the tsar' claimaints, no one does believe it, I've see that too. But the AA mess goes on because some will not let it die and are determined to keep it alive even though it should have been put out of its misery long ago. This is not innocent, it's a disservice to history and the memories of the dead, and it's wrong to let them mislead information seekers who don't know any better (hard to believe not everyone does, but they don't)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 06, 2008, 12:10:13 PM
People will do  just about anything to get attention, and I know, Annie, that you have had more than your share of Romaonv frauds. I disagree that the real  Romanovs are done a diservice though. They are long dead and cannot be hurt, even by history. They simply do not care. Sometimes these silly "happy birthday" messages to the  long gone grand duchesses annoy me more than the  so-called pretenders.  Good heavens,  they are exactly the sam,e age as when they died. Dead people do not have birthdays. But, I just ignore them.  No use in getting worjed up over it or trying to convince someone if they are determined to "believe".
 No amount of well documented proof and simple logic will dissuade them, will it?
 
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2008, 12:40:55 PM

 No amount of well documented proof and simple logic will dissuade them, will it?
 

No and it never will. I only hope to show the other side so people who don't know any better won't be fooled into believing a fairy tale.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on July 07, 2008, 07:46:33 PM

I don't know anyone in real life who believes in AA, but I sure know some on the internet who do.

Yes, it's someone that I discuss sometimes with on the internet.(and he's writing a book, I think about her.)  For now, in real life, I don't meet a person interested in the IF yet  :(


 No amount of well documented proof and simple logic will dissuade them, will it?
 

No and it never will. I only hope to show the other side so people who don't know any better won't be fooled into believing a fairy tale.

But, it's an human behavior. In our heart, we all wish that AN survived. Even, it's not reality. I think that still it does not hurt anyone, people can believe what they want.
Truth has already been proved now about AA.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 07, 2008, 07:55:53 PM
It was okay to believe a fairy tale when we didn't know but now it's just wrong, like believing in the flat earth. Also think how sad it is for poor Anastasia who died terribly at only 17 and was burned and left in the mud all those years to have some crazy woman parading around pretending to be her, and having people think of her as the real AN instead of the girl who died. That is heartbreaking. AA needs to be remembered as FS because that's who she was. Another bad thing is that a lot of the AA believers have been very mean to those who say she's FS and that makes me not feel sorry for them.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on July 07, 2008, 08:07:32 PM
It was okay to believe a fairy tale when we didn't know but now it's just wrong, like believing in the flat earth. Also think how sad it is for poor Anastasia who died terribly at only 17 and was burned and left in the mud all those years to have some crazy woman parading around pretending to be her.

Yes, that's really sad. But mentalities (I think it's not the good word ?.) change gladly, and people,step by step, stops seeing in AA the Grand Duchess. Truth will be soon accepted.

Another bad thing is that a lot of the AA believers have been very mean to those who say she's FS and that makes me not feel sorry for them.

I don't feel sorry for them, too. I feel sorry for those who hoped she was AN (like Olga A. & Gilliard) but by then had to face the truth. And I feel more sorry for the poor little One. Be remembered as an insane woman who made such bad things to people who never believed her isn't really a good image huh ?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 08, 2008, 12:55:00 PM
I came into the story of the Romanov's trough Anna Anderson, or basically because of the animated movie based on Anastasia's 'survival' and thus, i believed that it was true. Until i started to research things a bit more and found out Anna Anderson was a fraud, she knew allot about life at The Court(surprisingly) and seemed to be the real life fairytale, but now it all does seem so wrong. After all she pretended to be a Royal, who was brutally killed and burned after that. I hope people will accept now that the whole Imperial Family got killed that night, sadly enough. If there was a chance to make the past undone, i believe many of us would change allot.

Soon, when Alexei and Maria, or Anastasia, have been buried, people will accept the fact that no one survived and let them rest in peace.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 08, 2008, 01:13:37 PM


Soon, when Alexei and Maria, or Anastasia, have been buried, people will accept the fact that no one survived and let them rest in peace.

Don't hold your breath.  Sadly, the "flat earthers" will never accept this.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 08, 2008, 01:23:48 PM


Soon, when Alexei and Maria, or Anastasia, have been buried, people will accept the fact that no one survived and let them rest in peace.

Don't hold your breath.  Sadly, the "flat earthers" will never accept this.

I noticed today that on another website, a mod had suggested the AA supporters join that group and posted a link.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: StevenL on July 08, 2008, 06:35:32 PM


Soon, when Alexei and Maria, or Anastasia, have been buried, people will accept the fact that no one survived and let them rest in peace.

Don't hold your breath.  Sadly, the "flat earthers" will never accept this.

Nevertheless their continued presence among us allows the rest of us, even on on a bad day, to feel relatively sane and level-headed by comparison.

Steven
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on July 09, 2008, 06:53:28 PM
I, too, came into the Romanov story mostly through Anna Anderson.  I was a bit familiar with it through the movie Nicholas and Alexandra, but I don't think I'd have been as interested if I'd known from the outset that they were all killed and exactly what happened to them afterwards.  From now on there will be so much less mystery surrounding the story.

One of the worst things Anna Anderson did was to smear living people, or dead ones who could no longer defend themselves.  Lord Mount-Batten came off so badly in the AA version of events, like a cheat and a thief.  Then he was killed the way he was, and after I found out the untruth of AA's story I really repented of the way I'd thought of him and felt so sorry people made him look that way, and that at least a few other people still believe these untrue bad things about him.  There may have been genuine things to be said against him, but he didn't do this.  He was very brave and determined in promoting the truth.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Padawan Ryan on July 09, 2008, 07:04:06 PM
I, too, came into the Romanov story mostly through Anna Anderson.  I was a bit familiar with it through the movie Nicholas and Alexandra, but I don't think I'd have been as interested if I'd known from the outset that they were all killed and exactly what happened to them afterwards.  From now on there will be so much less mystery surrounding the story.

I came to the Romanov story through the cartoon Anastasia.
I don't remember how, but I found out that her family was real,
I think my dad had shown me a photo in an encyclopedia of them in 1912 or so.
I was ten years old at the time...and interested in what the real Anastasia was like,
I had checked Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra out of the library and read it during
Class in the fifth grade...at the time, when I finished the book, my favourite Romanov
Was Alexei...but right now, I have a high interest in pretty much all of them.
After I finished Massie's book, my mom gave me her copy (which I lost in sixth grade)
Of Kurth's Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, which also caused me to read up on
The whole idea of the possibilies of survival and whatnot...I'm now seventeen,
And more interested than I ever thought I would be at ten - and then it was a huge thing for me.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Halinka on July 15, 2008, 11:30:26 AM
I, too, came into the Romanov story mostly through Anna Anderson.  I was a bit familiar with it through the movie Nicholas and Alexandra, but I don't think I'd have been as interested if I'd known from the outset that they were all killed and exactly what happened to them afterwards.  From now on there will be so much less mystery surrounding the story.

I came to the Romanov story through the cartoon Anastasia.
I don't remember how, but I found out that her family was real,
I think my dad had shown me a photo in an encyclopedia of them in 1912 or so.
I was ten years old at the time...and interested in what the real Anastasia was like,
I had checked Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra out of the library and read it during
Class in the fifth grade...at the time, when I finished the book, my favourite Romanov
Was Alexei...but right now, I have a high interest in pretty much all of them.
After I finished Massie's book, my mom gave me her copy (which I lost in sixth grade)
Of Kurth's Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson, which also caused me to read up on
The whole idea of the possibilies of survival and whatnot...I'm now seventeen,
And more interested than I ever thought I would be at ten - and then it was a huge thing for me.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 27, 2008, 09:06:55 AM
This really belongs here, it's yet another version of her story. This one was perhaps the original invented by AA/FS and Clara in the asylum. It includes the later omitted details of going to Paris first and being chased around Europe by thugs who later drugged her and tossed her into the canal. (From a translation of "La Fausse Anastasie" by Gilliard, translated on another thread here by Kransnoeselo)

[It is necessary to grant special interest to the declarations that the patient gave to Ms. Peuthert and that she recorded in a letter that is addressed to Princess of Prussia, August 23, 1922. (Princess Irene of Prussia, sister of the Empress of Russia)

   I wrote in February to the Grand Duke Hesse-Darmstadt that there resides in Dalldorf asylum a young lady who says she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaiievna Romanov.

   As I often saw this young lady in photographs during her in her youth, and during a stay which I did in Russia, I promised to get her out of this place where she is living (utterly) abandoned.

   She related to me, that at the time of the assassination of the Imperial family, she received injuries to her hand and behind her ear, then was knocked to the floor, upon which she fainted.  A mere soldier, named Tschaiikovski, took her and hid her.  HIs mother and his sister cared for her.  But when it was noticed that a corpse was missing a search was undertaken to find the soldier; the family who was taking care of Anastasia was in danger and fled to Bucharest.   As this young lady was alone in the world and the name Romanov could endanger her, Anastasia, then seventeen years old, married the soldier whose family formerly belonged to Polish nobility.  Anastasia gave birth to a son that carried the name of Alexis.  They lived in Bucharest for a certain period of time, I think about two years, then the family's hideout was discovered; Anastasia's husband was injured by a bullet which struck his lungs; he was brought back seriously injured to the house, where he died, due to the continuous blood loss he suffered.

   As a living relative of Anastasia on her mother's side, as sister of the Tsarina, you will understand and forgive that Anastasia, abandoned by all, was not able to have a marriage of her own blood.  This is the biggest concern of the unfortunate one to know how you will accept this thing, especially her Grand Mother.   This onoe seems besides to be her enemy and wants to take advantage of the assassination of the emperor to govern.  This is the reason why Anastasia does not want to emphasize her rights as the Grand Duchess although she is.  It is necessary to act with a lot of prudence.  I pray you come see this lady.  I photographed her last week; though they cannot be very useful, since the young lady is at the moment very sick.  She was transported from the Dalldorf asylum to the house of Baron Kleist, who mixed this matter with his own goals and interests and wants to be her only advisor.  This is the reason why the lady left this family under a ruse in order to quietly reflect on what she should do.

   When Your Highness was this be visiting at Potsdam, the baron did not allow that the young lady to speak to you.  I insistently ask that you come to see her at once; only you can prove the truth.  Currently, this lady is with a good family, but it is not necessary that the Baron know it.  I will reveal you then where she is located.

   The young lady does not want one to say that she is the Grand Duchess, or Mrs Tschaiikovsi, for when those who followed her discovered the hideout of her family to Bucharest, she had to flee again.   She tried to loose their track leaving first to Paris where she knows a Baron Taube.  From Paris, she came to Berlin.  She was scarcely there for eight days when someone recognized her.  One evening,  in an automobile, she was drugged to sleep, they removed her clothes for her and put on others, and she was thrown, still totally drugged, in a lake by the zoo.  When she was drug out, it was believed that she had tried to commit suicide, and was driven to the Elisabeth hospital.  As she is not known in Warsaw under the name Tschaiikovski, she was transferred to the Dalldorf asylum.  It is absurd to believe that this lady, who fled Bucharest in the middle of so many difficulties to save her life, wanted to commit suicide here, in Berlin.  Only a madman would concede that.  This lady has a firm will to live, (as shown by the fact that) she has already spent three years without her son.

   I ask therefore that you take this matter seriously and to examine (to see) if all of this is true.  The current situation cannot go on much longer, since more than six months have passed without anyone being concerned for this lady.

She lives like a poor creature!  With the highest consideration, (Signed) Marie-Clara Peuthert]
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 27, 2008, 09:14:53 AM
More of the story from the same source, this time Von Kliest's versions of what she had told him (or what they made up!)

The Words of Baron Kleist

   June 7, 1922, I, Arthur Gustavovitch Kleist, was present for the questioning of the unknown one which took place at the Dalldorf asylum.  She declared the following:

   'I arrived in Berlin in the middle of the month of February 1920, I do not remember the exact date.  I arrived here alone, coming from Russia and having gone through Romania.  Immediately in Berlin, I changed clothing, in order not to be recognized. for it seemed to me that I was followed.  I no longer know what with that which I changed clothing.  I was free for less than a week, for I was first placed in the Elizabeth Hospital, where I spent six weeks, then I was transferred to the Dalldorf asylum.'

   After that, the unknown one was overcome by strong emotion, and, when I ask her how she came from Russia she does not give any response and only declared that her companion died in Romania.  Being in an extreme agitation the unknown asked me if it was possible to recognize her and if her relatives in Paris had been informed about her stay with me. After giving her a negative response I told her it was preferable not to advise her relatives in Paris because in my opnion it would be more convenient to inform her relatives in Denmark.  For the moment the unknown one then  abstained from giving any information to me.

   That same evening, at supper, I asked the Unknown one if she would consent to say her name to me.  I wanted to write on a slip of paper two names, whereby she would cross out the one that would be false, after which I would destroy the paper.  The unknown one accepted my suggestion.  I wrote on the paper the names of Anastasia and of Tatiana in Russian and then I passed her the paper.  Having read it, she crossed out the name of Tatiana, and returned me the paper that was immediately destroyed, as planned.    Some moments later, the unknown one asked me not to change anything in our rapport, because of this declaration, and not to observe etiquette.

   Continuing my questioning, I wanted to know with whom she had come from Romania with and how she had made Marie Peuthert's acquaintance.   Replying to the first question, the Unknown one declared that she had arrived in Berlin alone and and that her companion died in Romania.  She refused to say more about it (she remained stubbornly silent).  Replying to the second question, she explained that she had made Marie Peuthert's acquaintance at the Dalldorf hospital, that she had not known her beforehand and that in any case she had not come with her to Berlin.]

May 30, 1922, the unknown one moved in to Baron Kleist's home.  It was there  where a lot of persons who had formerly had relations with the court came to see her; they brought her photographs and books concerning the Imperial family.  Little by little the unknown one familiarized herself with the Russian language.  Annie (this is what she was called by those who looked after her.) received medical care while staying with the Baron, she was suffering from tuberculosis of the bone and consumption.  According to statements by Dr Graede to me who had cared for her during this time, stated that there were some lesions on the body of the patient, but they all had tuberculosis of the bone and not in any case could be caused by rifle butts or of a bayonet.  Unfortunately, this doctor, who was completely objective, did not submit the patient to a gynecological examination, but she declared to him that she had a son and "that one could always recognize this child thanks to the linens he wears with Imperial crowns and a medallion." which she had left to him.

In the file of the Baron Kleist are located two important facts:


1. The 6th of August 1922, the sick one yelled out in delirium in both Polish and Russian words (1) [Mr. and Mrs. Schwabe certify also that she would sometimes use the expression "Jesus-Maria", known to be used by Polish women.]

2.  The second is a letter sent to Copenhagen to the Grand Duchess Xenia, Nicholas II's sister, the unknown one signed "Astouchka".  As her hand trembled, the Baron was obliged to guide it.  The Grand Duchess Xenia replied that she had never given the nickname "Astouchka" to any of the Emperor's daughters.

 The Baroness Kleist recalled interesting conversations that she had with the patient, and during one which she asserted that the Emperor had deposited several millions in an English bank in the name of his daughters.

Nevertheless, all the attempts by Baron Kleist to identify the unknown one remained unsuccessful.  Among numerous persons who came to see her, none of them recognized her as the Tsar's daughter.  Mrs. Zenaïde Tolstoii who at first had taken her for the Grand Duchess Tatiana, recounted her error in a letter she addressed to Baron Kleist on August 7, 1922.]




Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 27, 2008, 09:18:12 AM
Baron Kleist's statement continued:

June 20 1922, the young woman that I had taken to my house from the asylum invited me to come to her room and, in the presence of my wife, the Baroness Marie Karlovna Kleist, she asked me to protect her and to emphasize her rights.  I told her that I was at her disposal, provided that she reply quite frankly to my questions, I asked for her first who she was.  The response was adamant: She was the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaiievna, the youngest daughter of the Emperor Nicholas II.  Next, I asked for her to give her account of the slaughter of the Imperial family and how she was able to save herself.  I obtained the following response:

   Yes I was present at the time of the slaughter of the Imperial family, and, when the slaughter began, I hid myself behind the back of my sister Tatiana who was killed by a blow (shot). Next, I received some blows (shots) and lost consciousness.  When I regained consciousness I was located with the family of a soldier who had saved me.  Then  with a female relative of the soldier and I left for Romania; and when this last one died (in Romania), I travelled to Germany alone; I had the intention to live hidden due to the fear of being followed and to earn my living by working.  I did not have any money, but I possessed some jewels; I sold them, and with this money I arrived here.

   All these trials deeply shook me, so that, for a moment, I lose all hope to see the arrival of better days.  ALthough knowing Russian, I avoid speaking it, for this language evokes in me extremely painful memories, the Russians treated us so poorly, me and my parents (family).

   The Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaiievna consented to confirming all that she had said to me in the presence of General Schulmann.  She equally agreed to invite, for recognition and identification, Prince Dolgorukov, who was in the service of Her Majesty the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorvna, whose arrival in Berlin was expected soon.

   July 1922, the young person that I took from the Dalldorf asylum at my place confirmed adamantly, for the second time to me, Arthur Gustavovitch Kleist, that she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna.  She added:

    Of all of my close relatives, I would want to see the Grand Duchess Xenia first.

   I liked this aunt a lot, and I am sure that she will recognize me better then the other aunts, although I do not understand why other persons who have known me well beforehand do not recognize me now.

   My aunt Xenia Alexandrovna often called me "Astouchka", and when I have recalled this name to her, she will no longer have doubt of my identity.

   This is the reason I will write to Xenia Alexandrovna a letter that I will pray you send to her.

   After that, the one who called herself Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna declared that in fact, being in Romania, she had, due to the advice of her companion, tried all means to alter her facial features.  She received, from an intermediary, this person who died in Romania, a device (apparatus), that she used on her face and succeeded a little in changing the form of her nose and mouth.
(Signed) Baron Klesit

   August 4 1922, Zenaiide Sergueiievna Tolstoii communicated, to me, Arthur Gustavovitch, Baron Kleist, that which follows:  August 2 years ago, the one that calls herself the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaiievna communicated to  me that she was saved hands of the bolsheviks by the Russian soldier Alexander Tschaiikovski.  It was with the family of the latter, consisting of his mother Marie, his sister Veronica, twenty-eight years old, and of his brother Serge (younger than his sister), and herself, Anastasia Nicolaiievna, arrived to Bucharest (Romania), where she remained until 1920.

   She bore Tschaiikovski's child, a boy that must now be almost three years old.  The child has black hair like his father, as are were his eyes.  The Tschaiikosvki family lived in a street situated close to a train station: It was, probably, the street "Swienti Voevosi", she does not remember the house number.  In 1920, Tschaiikovsi was attacked in a Bucharest street; he died from his injuries.  Then Anastasia Nicolaiievna, without warning anyone, flees Bucharest and arrived in Berlin.  Here she takes a room in a small boarding house, close to the train station, in Friedrichstrasse.  Anastasia Nicolaiievna does not remember the name of the boarding house.  Next, Anastasia Nicolaiievna declared that her child remained with the Tschaiikovski family, and she prayed to have him returned to her as fast as possible.

(Signed) Baron Kleist]




August 10, 1922, I Arthur Gustavovitch Kleist, questioned the Unknown one who I had taken from the Dalldorf asylum to my house and who called herself the Grand Duchess Anastasia.  She confirmed, in general, the declaration of Zenaiide Sergueiievna Tolstoii, and adds the following:

   I arrived in Bucharest at the end of 1918.  I got married to Alexander Tschaikovski, January 18, 1919, according to the Catholic rite, in a Catholic church situated not far from the place and house where I lived in Bucharest.  I do not remember the name of the church or the name of the priest who married us.

   Before my marriage, I converted to Catholicism, but now I want to again return to the Orthodox church. December 5, 1918,  I had a son who was baptized according to the Catholic rite by the same priest who married us.

   My name was listed as Anna Romanska (sic); on the marriage certificate which was in possession of my husband.  My son was baptized in January 1919; I do not remember the date.  He was given the name Alexis.

   In August 1919, my husband, Alexander Tschaiikovski was injured on a street in Bucharest having been shot, and died three days later.  He was buried in a Catholic cemetery in Bucharest.  (Signed) Baron Kleist ]



Note especially (bolded) how there was originally a claim she had altered her facial features using a special device. This tells us she had to have known she didn't resemble AN very much and was making excuses (others would come later, rifle butt, etc) but this one was hilarious!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: G_Lermontov on July 27, 2008, 09:14:03 PM
Quote
I arrived in Bucharest at the end of 1918.  I got married to Alexander Tschaikovski, January 18, 1919, according to the Catholic rite, in a Catholic church situated not far from the place and house where I lived in Bucharest.  I do not remember the name of the church or the name of the priest who married us.

Before my marriage, I converted to Catholicism, but now I want to again return to the Orthodox church. December 5, 1918,  I had a son who was baptized according to the Catholic rite by the same priest who married us.

The more familiar I become with Anna Anderson's story, the more I notice the little details that make her story nonsense (as opposed to the giant, glaring details that make her story nonsense.)  Why on earth would a Russian Grand Duchess and a Russian officer get married and baptize their son in a Roman Catholic Church? The Catholic Church was suppressed in Russia under the tsars, and their rites would be entirely foreign and strange to either the Grand Duchess or her husband.  Why would she go through the process of conversion, which is no small matter in Roman Catholicism?  I'm sure there were Orthodox Churches in Hungary, or protestant ones.  If she wanted to hide her identity, and thought an Orthodox Church might be too obvious, protestant churches have far fewer hoops to jump through in order to get married, at least compared to Catholic ones.

Now, if one were a farmgirl from a predominantly Catholic country, like, say, Poland, of course you would be very familiar with the Catholic Church...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Foxglove on July 28, 2008, 07:09:20 PM
The more familiar I become with Anna Anderson's story, the more I notice the little details that make her story nonsense (as opposed to the giant, glaring details that make her story nonsense.)  Why on earth would a Russian Grand Duchess and a Russian officer get married and baptize their son in a Roman Catholic Church? The Catholic Church was suppressed in Russia under the tsars, and their rites would be entirely foreign and strange to either the Grand Duchess or her husband.  Why would she go through the process of conversion, which is no small matter in Roman Catholicism?  I'm sure there were Orthodox Churches in Hungary, or protestant ones.  If she wanted to hide her identity, and thought an Orthodox Church might be too obvious, protestant churches have far fewer hoops to jump through in order to get married, at least compared to Catholic ones.

Now, if one were a farmgirl from a predominantly Catholic country, like, say, Poland, of course you would be very familiar with the Catholic Church...

From what Anna’s supporters explained, after her family’s massacre, she no longer believed in her former religion, having felt that God had abandoned her family. However, Catholics in essence worship the same God. If she was upset about Christianity, it would have made more sense for her to become agnostic, atheist, or join another religion such as Islam, and not simply convert to a different branch of Christianity.

Although Poland is predominantly Catholic, Franziska was born and raised in Prussia. What exactly was the main branch of religion there: Catholicism or Protestantism?

More importantly, did any of Anna’s supporters ever try to write to the Catholic churches in Bucharest to inquire of the priests there of an “Anna Romanska” having been married in their church? I know that some churches carried records of baptisms and marriages, so it was certainly worth a shot to see if someone recalled Anna, Alexander, or their child. It seems that there was never any concrete evidence of Anna having been in Romania, but if there were witnesses, or a legal document to be found, it would add much credence to her story.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 28, 2008, 09:30:54 PM

More importantly, did any of Anna’s supporters ever try to write to the Catholic churches in Bucharest to inquire of the priests there of an “Anna Romanska” having been married in their church? I know that some churches carried records of baptisms and marriages, so it was certainly worth a shot to see if someone recalled Anna, Alexander, or their child.

I think somebody did go look but found nothing (of course)

Quote
It seems that there was never any concrete evidence of Anna having been in Romania, but if there were witnesses, or a legal document to be found, it would add much credence to her story.

That would be like finding Santa's workshop at the North Pole!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: G_Lermontov on July 30, 2008, 01:38:36 AM
Quote
From what Anna’s supporters explained, after her family’s massacre, she no longer believed in her former religion, having felt that God had abandoned her family. However, Catholics in essence worship the same God. If she was upset about Christianity, it would have made more sense for her to become agnostic, atheist, or join another religion such as Islam, and not simply convert to a different branch of Christianity.

Well, Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity have been at loggerheads for the past thousand years or so, so if one wanted to behave spitefully towards one's old faith, converting to Catholicism could be considered worse than becoming Muslim or an atheist, in context.  The Catholic Church is still viewed with deep suspicion in many Orthodox circles, especially in Russia.

Quote
Although Poland is predominantly Catholic, Franziska was born and raised in Prussia. What exactly was the main branch of religion there: Catholicism or Protestantism?

Fransiska was born in Pomerania, which is now split between  Poland and Germany and was home to a mix of ethnic Germans and Poles when it was part of Prussia. The Schanzkowskis, as ethnic Poles, would have likely been Catholic.  I assume this question has probably been answered definitively somewhere.

On a different angle of the Anna Anderson story, has Peter Kurth ever said anything about the discovery of the second grave last year?  He has been the primary proponent of Anna Anderson's story for the past three decades, has he offered any comment?  An "oops, my bad", or anything? ;)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on July 30, 2008, 03:26:42 AM
On a different angle of the Anna Anderson story, has Peter Kurth ever said anything about the discovery of the second grave last year?  He has been the primary proponent of Anna Anderson's story for the past three decades, has he offered any comment?  An "oops, my bad", or anything? ;)

Since he disputes the bones found in the first excavation, http://www.peterkurth.com/ROMANOV%20BONES.htm he seems to feel no need to dispute the small fragments found in the latest excavation.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on July 30, 2008, 03:46:54 AM
How on earth you can dispute this I do not know! DNA, facial mapping and the accounts of the people who acted as murders all come together and tell us that it is the Imperial Family in the first grave and of course now also the second. Clutching at sraws is what comes to mind here.

On a different angle of the Anna Anderson story, has Peter Kurth ever said anything about the discovery of the second grave last year?  He has been the primary proponent of Anna Anderson's story for the past three decades, has he offered any comment?  An "oops, my bad", or anything? ;)

Since he disputes the bones found in the first excavation, http://www.peterkurth.com/ROMANOV%20BONES.htm he seems to feel no need to dispute the small fragments found in the latest excavation.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Foxglove on July 30, 2008, 04:32:33 AM
Well, Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity have been at loggerheads for the past thousand years or so, so if one wanted to behave spitefully towards one's old faith, converting to Catholicism could be considered worse than becoming Muslim or an atheist, in context.  The Catholic Church is still viewed with deep suspicion in many Orthodox circles, especially in Russia.

Anna's main qualm was with God in general, but if she believed in that Catholicism was the “correct way” to appeal to God and His mercy, I suppose that would explain her conversion to that faith instead of abandoning Christianity altogether.

Quote
Fransiska was born in Pomerania, which is now split between  Poland and Germany and was home to a mix of ethnic Germans and Poles when it was part of Prussia. The Schanzkowskis, as ethnic Poles, would have likely been Catholic.  I assume this question has probably been answered definitively somewhere.

The Schanzkowskis were not ethnically Polish but Kashubian. Depending on in what area they lived in, and on which side they identified most with (Polish or German), they could have been either Catholics or Lutheran Protestants.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on July 31, 2008, 02:17:52 PM
How on earth you can dispute this I do not know! DNA, facial mapping and the accounts of the people who acted as murders all come together and tell us that it is the Imperial Family in the first grave and of course now also the second. Clutching at sraws is what comes to mind here.

One could make another whole book on when strong beliefs become delusions.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 31, 2008, 02:34:05 PM
How on earth you can dispute this I do not know! DNA, facial mapping and the accounts of the people who acted as murders all come together and tell us that it is the Imperial Family in the first grave and of course now also the second. Clutching at sraws is what comes to mind here.

Don't underestimate the power of denial and delusions of the human mind...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on July 31, 2008, 03:08:29 PM
It would now be idle CHATter...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2008, 03:52:24 PM
It would now be idle CHATter...

That's for sure!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 31, 2008, 06:20:15 PM
I don't have the sources with me, but there is no evidence other than her word that Anderson was ever in Romania. None. Just like her false "rememberances" of the Alexander Palace nothing in her Romanian story ever panned out.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Kransnoeselo on July 31, 2008, 08:01:10 PM
It is from my understanding that the Schanzkowski family was Roman Catholic, and while they were Kashubian (They in fact did speak some Polish).  In fact the Schanzkowski family many generations prior to Franziska and her siblings had been minor Polish nobility (apparently many families had been bestowed this title due to allegiance to the ruler at that time).

 Interestingly the soldiers who supposedly "rescued" AA by the name of Tschaikowsky were also supposedly Polish as well as Roman Catholic, and even more interestingly AA mentioned that she had been told by her rescuers that their family had been Polish nobility many years prior.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on August 01, 2008, 04:05:56 AM
But as everything Anna Anderson said must be a lie (DNA showing she was not AN and the rescue therefore did not happen) we have to take everything with a pinch of salt. But her story is intresting in other ways and no doubt will be debated for ever.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Holly on August 01, 2008, 02:27:15 PM
Has anyone noticed that all the great AA supporters seem to have the exact same type of personalities? I've been verbally assaulted via email by more than one in the past four years. Namely, Chatnoir, who wouldn't stop for anything. Wow, is he nasty! I eventually had to block him completely.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 01, 2008, 02:33:11 PM
I would not worry, they  most likely get it back in buckets.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 01, 2008, 02:57:18 PM
There are a few supporters on both sides of this contentious issue that can be a bit, shall we say ...over zealous. It is too bad that you had to block someone because of e-mail.

Louise
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 01, 2008, 03:26:26 PM
Re:  "Chatnoir"  and a poster's just mentioned experience with that individual:    Have I the correct understanding that the screen name "Chatnoir" is in reality the author Peter Kurth?  The "Forum Administrator, Valeria" on  an another on -line OTMA Forum of July 28th, (Topic: "Pathetically dealing with reality)," seems to assert such with the response "Chatnoir/Kurth."   If true, it certainly would lend interest as to the stances taken on the A. Anderson topic!  AP
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 01, 2008, 03:32:31 PM
I heard this from someone else before, so he could very well be. He certainly generously seems to dole out identical ideas. If this is the case, it's pretty sad.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 01, 2008, 03:39:23 PM
I really do not know, but I doubt it. Despite his obession with AA,  Kurth is a very good writer and well thought of, otherwise. I have heard this rumour before as well.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 01, 2008, 03:48:01 PM
I hope it's not him, otherwise it would mean he really went off the deep end, which would be quite sad, especially considering it would be about Anna Anderson...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 01, 2008, 06:27:00 PM
Chat Noir is not Peter Kurth. I have had correspondence with both of them. No cause for sadness.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 02, 2008, 05:21:40 AM
August 10, 1922, I Arthur Gustavovitch Kleist, questioned the Unknown one who I had taken from the Dalldorf asylum to my house and who called herself the Grand Duchess Anastasia.  She confirmed, in general, the declaration of Zenaiide Sergueiievna Tolstoii, and adds the following:

My son was baptized in January 1919; I do not remember the date.  He was given the name Alexis.

Here is an example of how her story kept changing.  In 1922 she gave her son's name as Alexis.  When asked later, she was extremely indignant at this suggestion and said the son was named Alexander after the father.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on August 02, 2008, 06:28:51 AM
Chatnoir seems a nasty bit of work in my view. I know Annie and him have run ins on a daily basis on the other forum which shall remain nameless. I to had heard that he was Kurth but it does not matter as their view point is against all the evidence and of course DNA. I quite enjoy reading his views although I do not agree with them.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Holly on August 02, 2008, 10:18:32 AM
Chat Noir is not Peter Kurth. I have had correspondence with both of them. No cause for sadness.

True. I've also spoken to both of them. Though after a particular email I did get a little curious and ran a search on his email and found out he wasn't for sure.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 02, 2008, 12:03:18 PM
Attn: "Holly" and your posts #98 and 107:   Thank you for bringing up the actions that you have personally experienced re "Chatnoir" to our attention.  Anything of that alleged detrimental nature needs to be mentioned as you did.  If you have definitively determined that they (Chat/Kurth) are 2 SEPARATE individuals, then it would be helpful for you to bring this to the attention of the forum http://www.freewebs.com/victoriaprincess_18 , noting there is a _ (a single underline) between victoriaprincess and 18 (then clicking next on the heading "OTMA FORUMS"). The "forum administrator, Valeria" and her assistant (?) "Annushka,"  both demonstrate a viable interest in the identity, in the topic "pathetically dealing with reality"  and apparently believe that they are the same person  (See particularly the June 28th post and more recent discussions of  August 1, et seq.).  I assume that you could easily help with this input, since you are listed as an "Imperial Moderator" (Congrats!) on that same  forum.   (This is an interesting little forum that I discovered quite by accident in some followup, and it appears it will continue to have some interesting discussions, such as the claimant section.  It seems to attract a lot of "guests" to read the forum.  I am NOT a member, nor plan to be, thus I have no particular vested interest on either side of the identity of Chatnoir/Kurth as the determination is being made/proven, other than follow-along).  AP
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 02, 2008, 04:03:25 PM
Addendum to my posting, # 108,  above:  Just minutes ago, I received a pm from a member (NOT the poster "Holly") of the above mentioned board , "victoria princess 18", etc., asking me to edit my reference as to the identifying site address and supplying their unusual rationale for such a request.  I normally do not accept pms, but did compose a reply.  Prior to sending it, I have checked the site again and it has apparently closed itself off to further (selected?) public communication:  "The Page You Are Looking For Does Not Exist."   Pity.  I simply wish now to indicate a couple of hours ago this date (August 2), it was easily accessed and read by anyone who wished.  (Humorously, I do NOT believe that the foregoing action was personally done by "Chatnoir/Kurth" !)  AP
 
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: StevenL on August 02, 2008, 05:29:25 PM
I've also spoken to both of them.

Did you speak with them person or over the telephone?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 04, 2008, 12:38:21 AM
Well, I'll jump in here and say I am just as well pleased if ChatNoir is not Peter Kurth.  I received a very nice letter from Kurth after the Nova special about the DNA testing on the bones came out.  ChatNoir has PMed me twice, saying I wasn't well read enough and might be thrown to the wolves as they tried to do to him before he read up enough.  I am happy to say this hasn't happened.  My questions have been well and thoroughly answered and I have reached my own conclusions based on the evidence presented by people here.

As far as flat earthers, they exist on almost any subject.  See Jon Ronson's interesting book Them:  Adventures with Extremists.

One very good example of someone who (like Peter Kurth) I used to respect a lot more is the historian novelist Allan W. Eckert, who based his works on a number of sources, some more accurate than others.  One hundred or so years after Native American Shawnee chief Blue Jacket lived, someone wrote a story saying he was actually Marmaduke Van Swearingen, a boy or young man who disappeared from a white settler family.  It's been conclusively shown that they were two different individuals.  They were born in different years--Van Swearingen was still quite a young child while Blue Jacket was a distinguished warrior.  Blue Jacket was a Native American married to a white woman (unlike in Eckert's book The Frontiersmen where he is portrayed as a white man married to a Native woman.)  His children were always referred to as "half-breeds," which, with a white wife, makes him Native.  What's more, he always used an interpreter when speaking with whites--an odd choice for a boy supposedly raised speaking English.  For the coup de grace, DNA tests were run on both families and it was found their lines never crossed.  The story is also insulting to the Shawnee--implying they needed to get a white boy in to get the job done and so on.  Yet Eckert has not only never corrected The Frontiersmen (which would require rewriting about half of a huge book) but CONTINUES to write books portraying Blue Jacket as an adopted white man!  He's a talented author but far gone in denial--kinda like someone we all know.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 04, 2008, 03:19:54 AM
In my opinion, Peter Kurth is a decent man, very kind and helpful when he can be. He has a lot more to his body of work than AA, for sure. I have never had contact with Chat Noir, nor do I wish to,  but they 2 different people, in my  view. I do not understand how someone can be so vicious about such a  trivial subject.  But, it happens on boths sides of the topic.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on August 04, 2008, 03:21:50 AM
In fairness to Chatnoir he was quite nice to me the other day. I had made a mistake with a post of his and apologized and he was quite graceful about it. I thought he was going to rip me to shreds but he did not.

Michael
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: StevenL on August 04, 2008, 06:00:49 AM
In my opinion, Peter Kurth is a decent man, very kind and helpful when he can be. He has a lot more to his body of work than AA, for sure. I have never had contact with Chat Noir, nor do I wish to,  but they 2 different people, in my  view. I do not understand how someone can be so vicious about such a  trivial subject. 

Experience tells me the two are one.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 04, 2008, 06:16:40 AM
Well, I could be wrong, of course, but Mr Kurth is  pretty up front about his views, and unless he is a "Jekyll & Hyde" type of person, I just do not see it. I have no idea who Chatnoir is  other than his postings,, but I have a pretty good  knowledge of Peter Kurth.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 09:18:31 AM
Steven,

They are not the same person; I know this for a fact, having spoken with one and corresponded with the other in such a way that there is no doubt. If you wish to PM me in this matter, I will elaborate. However, it is misleading to continue to insist that they are. It is no shame to either to be mistaken for the other, but it is factually untrue. As entertaining as Peter Kurth can be, I have a hard time imagining him creating an entirely unnecessary alter ego merely to tease those who do not share his beliefs about Anderson.

And with all due respect, isn't it a bit ironic to insist that "experience" is the ultimate decision-making factor here, given that Kurth's "experiences" with Anna Anderson are routinely criticized as being unacceptable in the face of the empirical evidence about her identity?

Thanks,

Simon
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 04, 2008, 09:53:46 AM
Well, I am glad to hear that they are not one and the same person, otherwise I was a little concerned for Mr. Kurth's sanity.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 10:29:32 AM


Experience tells me the two are one.

Mine as well. You, having been a victim of some of his more irrational rants, such as when you were called a 'gnat' 'cad' and 'a-hole' by him, (I've seen all those posts) are well aware that he does have that side to him, and it frequently emerges.

Just recently, on another forum, he posted under his own name, the one he signs 'PK', such a torrential rant against me and two other posters that the moderator had to delete the post and warn him.(They do not stand for such things there) In it, he made some of the same exact insulting comments recently and frequently used as "Chat" on my AA forum, such as mocking a certain girl for not being able to speak English. His behavior has not been the most subtle, having had issues with moderators on not only the royal forum but also alt.talk and wikipedia. Dmitri, who used to post here, was active on wiki and said he and the moderators there were completely convinced Chat=Kurth. He said Kurth was banned and returned immediately as "Chat" using exactly the same rhetoric. He used to frequently contact me in private and I'd notice the same day he was posting the same things almost exactly on KW forum under his real name. Personally, IMO, after having spoken to him in literally hundreds of posts and PMs, there is absolutely no doubt that they are one in the same. When he first came to this forum, I was told by no less than six different people it was him, and while I didn't know for sure at the time, he jnever did a thing to disprove them.

Quote
and unless he is a "Jekyll & Hyde"

Quote
As entertaining as Peter Kurth can be, I have a hard time imagining him creating an entirely unnecessary alter ego merely to tease those who do not share his beliefs about Anderson.

I suppose theoretically, the purpose of the alias would be to use it for the type of behavior and certain things to say that you wouldn't want to use you own name for. This is extremely common, after being on many message boards for seven years now and modding several, I can't possibly explain just how very, very common it is for people to have more than one identity, some several. It's also not unusual for these people to invent entire alternate lives for themselves and post you a picture of 'them' to say 'look I'm not him' and in fact those who are quickest to do this are usually the most guilty of being an alias. Remember how Caleb invented many characters, including the thirtysomething housewife whose child loved Bob the builder, the San Francisco lesbian, and the 60 year old farmer who used to help Jack Manahan feed his dogs. A person doesn't even have to be insane to maintain their alter ego by fake emails, bounced IPs, and yes even conversations under these identities. This happens on message boards and myspace all the time. Whatever made them feel the need to do it makes them know they have to keep playing the game. Then, like AA, once they start, they have to keep it up because it's far too humiliating to get caught. So, that is just the internet in general, but I do think Kurth would indeed make a false name where he could be more free to express him more aggressive or oddball views and not tarnish his real name. However, sadly, it appears in some places he has also already done that as well. Also remember his outburst on the plane that landed him in hot water last year proves he does indeed have a temper. And after all, who else would have such strong feelings about the AA subject to take it so far?

My personal opinion is that they are one in the same, and those who say otherwise are either naive as to just how far a person will go to protect a false identity (speaking of AA), or they haven't spoken to him/them at such great length and in such depth as some of us have, or they are kindly attempting to protect his reputation.


PS- I see the lurker now and I totally expect to be jumped on by the usual suspects, however, I have stated my personal experience and views as others have. I do realize there are some who are going to fly in immediately to attack whatever I say, and it's so obvious it's become hilarious. As PK once said, flame way, gnat!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 10:40:13 AM
Well, welcome back, Annie.  After your most recent outburst, your announcement a mere four days ago that you were voluntarily going to leave for good rather than submit to being banned unleashed a series of bets among some of us as to how long you could stay away.  It appears I won.

Thanks.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 10:48:21 AM
Why thank you, and how boring your life would be without me. I am not staying, I just had something to say. I won't be engaging you again. I don't believe I should be banned if you aren't. I am tired of being shadowed and tormented by you, and sick of being  the musical chairs loser/hot potato holder/scapegoat in a revisionist history plot of what really transpired in the whole FOTR saga and won't let anyone use me again.

Now let's not let another thread go off track because of our own personal issues.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 11:44:03 AM
I am not staying, I just had something to say.

Well, from my perspective, you'll certainly be missed.  I mean, the things you've had to say thus far have been so very interesting:

-  your detailed report of a speech at a history conference that was, in fact, never given
-  your attacks on a book you never read
-  your arguments that one need not read any  book in order to critique it authoritatively
-  your boasting of helping students plagiarize academic papers
-  your making us all aware that Presidents are given two free passes to commit murder
-  your misattribution of authorship regarding some missing head
-  your constant news flashes from a world of "real people" that you alone seem to inhabit
-  your explication of the world's events through the lens of brilliant careers in fast food service and your bevy of first and second cousins
-  your reduced economic circumstances because of intra-family fraud and fighting

And all of this in only the few short months I've followed of what others tell me have been several years of apparently fascinating posts.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 11:53:44 AM
Dear Cornholio,

I am aware that people can erect complicated, sophisticated online identities, or even dumb ones. This is not distracting from the topic at hand, which is in fact whether the poster known as Chat Noir is the same as the historian known as Peter Kurth. He is not. I know this because I have corresponded with Chat Noir under his real name, and indeed he cashed a check that I mailed to him about a year ago under his real name. He had kindly provided me with a copy of the von Rathlef book. I have corresponded with Peter Kurth AND spoken with him on the phone, and unless his miraculous powers include bi-location, they are not the same person.

Neither man needs a false identity to harass you. As you have mentioned, you post incessantly about the topic "Anna Anderson", polluting most of the other royalty forums on the net. I don't follow you around, by the way, since the nastiness you have unleashed here is more than enough to stomach, but in this case you have posted this nonsense here, and as I said, when you post nonsense here, I will respond. StevenL got a more polite response, but then he doesn't have your track record for mischief-making.

The idea that you have deduced that PK is CN through your "experience" is . . .  well, I overuse the word "hilarious" in regard to you, Annie, but you do make it kind of easy. Why on earth would either of them go to the trouble merely to annoy you? They annoy you plenty simply by being themselves. People don't dislike you because of your "position" in regard to Anna Anderson, Annie. No one takes you that seriously. They dislike you because you post nasty things about them on the internet, questioning their sanity, etc. For example, I hold exactly the same position in regard to Anna Anderson that you do --- that she was Franziska Schanzkowska. And Chat Noir and Peter Kurth and I get along just fine. It is possible to disagree with people without turning into a screeching wombat or making sly remarks. You might want to consider that this topic (i.e AA=ANR) is a somewhat narrow field of interest --- most of the people on this site, for example, don't really get involved in the Anna Anderson mess all that much. You are bound to run into the same merry band all over the internet, and if you are as charming on the other sites as you are here, I am not at all surprised to learn that you are a target. Note MichaelHR's comment that when he exchanged posts with Chat Noir on another site, CN was perfectly polite. My guess would be that so was MichaelHR.

Again, none of this is remotely important in the grand scheme of things. And I am an equal opportunity defender. A few months ago I published that Helen Azar was masquerading as another poster. I retracted it when both she and the other poster contacted me to deny it. There were linguistic similarities between their posts, but in the end I was wrong.

And so are you.

Again.

See you the next time you post. My guess is that it won't be long.

Simon

And Helen, I am sure that Peter is relieved to know that you don't have to be concerned about him anymore. Back to Darfur, I suppose.



Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 12:00:34 PM
Your twisted version of all those things only proves you have no idea what you're talking about. But being part of a revisionist history plot, I'm not surprised. I will not clog up YET ANOTHER THREAD with your OT and unnecessary personal accusations against me and garbage dragged third hand and inaccurate from other threads. This thread is is not 'all about Annie' this is a discussion about Anna Anderson. Therefore the only one of your absurdly twisted list I will answer is one that applies to that case.

Quote
-  your misattribution of authorship regarding some missing head

No. First I just said I remembered reading it but didn't recall where. The next day I came back with the page numbers and sources.

You really, really need to get your facts straight, and you seriously need to get over this obsession with me, it's not healthy.

Ha ha ha, you two guys have just proven everything I keep saying that you follow me from thread to thread, dragging old stuff around and going off topic just to attack me. (not to mention misquoting, twisting words and meanings terribly) I'm sure I'm not the only person who wonders why the mods put up with such behavior. Run along, little boys! I have more important things to do.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 04, 2008, 12:06:24 PM
A few months ago I published that Helen Azar was masquerading as another poster. I retracted it when both she and the other poster contacted me to deny it. There were linguistic similarities between their posts, but in the end I was wrong.

I don't remember contacting you to deny it one way or another, but perhaps I just forgot. I wasn't even aware that you were accusing Jim W of being me on the K&W forum (if this is what you are referring to) until he emailed me about it...   :-\ Well, everyone makes mistakes.

And Helen, I am sure that Peter is relieved to know that you don't have to be concerned about him anymore. Back to Darfur, I suppose.

Yes, back to Darfur!  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 12:08:35 PM
Very lordly, Annie.

And we're not obsessed. After all, we read what you post before we attack it, which is more than you ever did . . .

You have posted that you think Peter Kurth is Chat Noir. So did StevenL. I have responded to both of you, to him politely, and to you not so much. But the gist of the response is the same. He is not.

Helen believes me. And yes, people do make mistakes. And adults admit them. Over to you, Annie.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 12:21:03 PM
Well, I'll admit to a mistake.  Annie is correct that I got my wires crossed about the missing head.  That came from a book by Alexandranov.  It was the claim of a missing "broach" [sic ] that she improperly attributed to Massie on that thread.  Mea culpa.

As for the rest:

Your twisted version of all those things only proves you have no idea what you're talking about. But being part of a revisionist history plot, I'm not surprised.

So are you now saying that you did not, in fact, post on this forum that Penny Wilson gave a speech at the Eurohistory Conference in which she claimed that Anna Anderson was Anastasia?

Are you saying you have not argued that books can be critiqued without first reading them?

Are you saying you did not brag that your solid research skills were proven by the fact that students who turned in papers you wrote for them got good grades?



I am not staying, I just had something to say. I won't be engaging you again.

I see.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 12:31:05 PM
Okay, five bucks. Put it up.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 12:35:43 PM
I'll mail the check to Chat, who can foward it to you.  I've got to keep my identities secret.

Regards,

Binky
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 12:36:29 PM
Oops.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 04, 2008, 12:49:28 PM
I have  helped  students  with research and outlines for their papers, but never actually written  one for them.  That is  downright cheating and any marks given  undeserved. Annie should be ashamed of herself if that is what she did, indeed do.
 On the other hand, Annie is a great animal activist and I admire her for that. She has informed me of some great wrongs that I was unaware of.    I do not understand her obsession with persecution and  the whole AA-AFS-ANR, but, that keeps her boat afloat, I guess.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 04, 2008, 12:52:46 PM
So, Annie...now that Simon has confirmed that Chat Noir and Peter Kurth are not the same individual...can we expect a mea maxima culpa from you?

Louise
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on August 04, 2008, 01:20:22 PM
Just so everyone knows what that was about, as my name is mentioned, I had posted on the royal forum, yep I do go there form time to time, that Chatnoir had called Gillard and the Baroness "Bux" liars as I thought he had at the time. Chat challenged me to show where he had ever called the Baroness a liar. On going back though the threads I realised that I had made a terrible mistake. In relation to Gilliard he had said this based on the fact that it was proven in the German Court that Gillard had lied but in relation to the Baroness I had made a basic mistake and he had never said this about her.

In her book she does not mention (If it happened) that she informed the reds that the IF were hiding jewels (as has been alledged) and therefore by assumption, in other words mine, was a liar and that Chat had said as such. It was my mistake as he had never said she was a liar and I had assumed, as stated, that by the information that she had/had not released the information on the jewels that she was.

Therefore as I had made a mistake I posted an apology to Chatnoir as I felt that he deserved this due to my error expecting to be ripped to shreds but was not and in fact he was very polite about the matter and thanked me for posting my apology.

Chatnoir knows that I do not accept his position relating to AA and this with the mistake is why I thought I would be ripped to shreds but I was surprised and pleased to see that I was not.   

The main reason why I thought Chatnoir was Peter Kurth was quite simple Chat's knowledge of the AA case which is extensive to say the least and is far and beyond most peoples.

As some of you know I do feel that at times things get over heated and have said so but for now I shall bow out of this particular argument as there seems a great deal of background that I am not aware of. I am also not aware of the ins and outs of the FOTR saga although I have the book but have yet to read it and won't comment on this witout reading the threads or the book in question.



Dear Cornholio,

I am aware that people can erect complicated, sophisticated online identities, or even dumb ones. This is not distracting from the topic at hand, which is in fact whether the poster known as Chat Noir is the same as the historian known as Peter Kurth. He is not. I know this because I have corresponded with Chat Noir under his real name, and indeed he cashed a check that I mailed to him about a year ago under his real name. He had kindly provided me with a copy of the von Rathlef book. I have corresponded with Peter Kurth AND spoken with him on the phone, and unless his miraculous powers include bi-location, they are not the same person.

Neither man needs a false identity to harass you. As you have mentioned, you post incessantly about the topic "Anna Anderson", polluting most of the other royalty forums on the net. I don't follow you around, by the way, since the nastiness you have unleashed here is more than enough to stomach, but in this case you have posted this nonsense here, and as I said, when you post nonsense here, I will respond. StevenL got a more polite response, but then he doesn't have your track record for mischief-making.

The idea that you have deduced that PK is CN through your "experience" is . . .  well, I overuse the word "hilarious" in regard to you, Annie, but you do make it kind of easy. Why on earth would either of them go to the trouble merely to annoy you? They annoy you plenty simply by being themselves. People don't dislike you because of your "position" in regard to Anna Anderson, Annie. No one takes you that seriously. They dislike you because you post nasty things about them on the internet, questioning their sanity, etc. For example, I hold exactly the same position in regard to Anna Anderson that you do --- that she was Franziska Schanzkowska. And Chat Noir and Peter Kurth and I get along just fine. It is possible to disagree with people without turning into a screeching wombat or making sly remarks. You might want to consider that this topic (i.e AA=ANR) is a somewhat narrow field of interest --- most of the people on this site, for example, don't really get involved in the Anna Anderson mess all that much. You are bound to run into the same merry band all over the internet, and if you are as charming on the other sites as you are here, I am not at all surprised to learn that you are a target. Note MichaelHR's comment that when he exchanged posts with Chat Noir on another site, CN was perfectly polite. My guess would be that so was MichaelHR.

Again, none of this is remotely important in the grand scheme of things. And I am an equal opportunity defender. A few months ago I published that Helen Azar was masquerading as another poster. I retracted it when both she and the other poster contacted me to deny it. There were linguistic similarities between their posts, but in the end I was wrong.

And so are you.

Again.

See you the next time you post. My guess is that it won't be long.

Simon

And Helen, I am sure that Peter is relieved to know that you don't have to be concerned about him anymore. Back to Darfur, I suppose.




Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 04, 2008, 01:35:19 PM
for that. She has informed me of some great wrongs that I was unaware of.    I do not understand her obsession with persecution and  the whole AA-AFS-ANR, but, that keeps her boat afloat, I guess.

Annie means well.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on August 04, 2008, 01:40:28 PM
Anyone who supports animal welfare gets my vote
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 04, 2008, 01:57:18 PM
Anyone who supports animal welfare gets my vote

Absolutely.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Jim Wilhelm on August 04, 2008, 02:53:26 PM
A few months ago I published that Helen Azar was masquerading as another poster. I retracted it when both she and the other poster contacted me to deny it. There were linguistic similarities between their posts, but in the end I was wrong.
Simon:

Yes, so you were. BTW, do I detect the sound of the world's tiniest violin playing?

You think Helen A. and I have "linguistic similarities"? Knowing Helen as I do, I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks.

All:

As far as finding AA legend sympathizers these days, I think you might find many of them huddled together for mutual comfort in some cold harbor somewhere.

Jim Wilhelm
Albuquerque, NM USA
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 03:03:34 PM
So, Annie...now that Simon has confirmed that Chat Noir and Peter Kurth are not the same individual...can we expect a mea maxima culpa from you?

Louise

No. He has not confirmed it, merely offered his personal opinion based on his personal experiences. According to my personal experiences,  it appears he is. (and others agree) Several of us have expressed an opinion on this, I don't see why his is the end-all. It's not for me.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 03:08:01 PM
This is true, Annie, but then when have you ever been stopped by empirical evidence?

Five bucks, Tsarfan. Fork it over.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 04, 2008, 03:11:43 PM
Annie, get real. A check has been cashed, is that not proof enough?  People have TALKED with both of them, separately.  Your obsession is pointless.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 03:30:15 PM
Annie, get real. A check has been cashed, is that not proof enough? People have TALKED with both of them, separately.

I don't know who those people were or what was behind it, or if anyone is even telling the truth, all I know is, the character I have talked to on the internet is the same person. I sure wish Dmitri was here, because he had proof the other way, from the wikipedia forum.

At a rock concert get together among people on another site, one guy paid somebody to pose as his online alias so he wouldn't have to be embarrassed when they both said they'd be there.

Quote
  Your obsession is pointless.

Then I guess Chat and I have something in common. Sorry, nothing anyone says can outweigh personal experiences! ;)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 03:37:28 PM
Her obsession is not pointless. It takes the place of a life.

My correction was not to you, O gal pal of the animals. It never crossed my mind that you would believe me, Annie, because I think you are just that kind of girl.  For anyone who is not, um, challenged by how history is done, please note that I am by way of being a primary witness. I had contact with Peter Kurth AND Chat Noir, go me, and they are not the same person.

And let me save you time in posting:  Annie does not believe this because unless she can put her hands in the wounds, she believeth not. Although since you thought the cats were actually in China on the basis of a picture of them lolling about some very odd cushions, I'm not sure when there was this mysterious increase in your standards.

Simon

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 03:53:21 PM
Her obsession is not pointless. It takes the place of a life.

This is the kind of unnecessary snide remark disguised as humor that is actually a personal attack no other forum in the world will tolerate.

But since it's okay on this one, I'll say, just like yours and Tsarfan's toward me? And P-, uh, Chat's toward AA?

Quote
I am by way of being a primary witness.

and you are not among those who I trust.

Quote
I had contact with Peter Kurth AND Chat Noir, go me, and they are not the same person.

Whoopee. So have I. And I disagree.

 I have my reasons, you have yours. I'm not going to argue.





Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 04:26:00 PM
Let's see.  On this thread alone, Annie, you have said at least three times that you are gone for good.  Yet . . . here you are once more.  You're as free as anyone else to come here, of course.  But I don't really understand the purpose of these constant protestations of permanent departure, only to return days, hours -- sometimes even minutes -- later.

This is the kind of unnecessary snide remark disguised as humor that is actually a personal attack no other forum in the world will tolerate.

No other forum?   Even by your shaky standards, this is a patently absurd gross generalization.  What goes on here pales by comparison to what goes down on, for example, most car forums I regularly visit.  And try perusing the reader comment sections of most news sites if you want to see real mudslinging.  Annie, you really take the cake for spouting off either without having the foggiest notion of what you are saying or without knowing the least thing about the topic on which you opine . . . or both.

Sorry, nothing anyone says can outweigh personal experiences!

Such a remark makes sense when applied to some issues.  But when used as a basis for interpreting history or for assessing current global events, the reliance only on personal experience is manifestly inadequate as an analytic tool.  It has been the failure to grasp this distinction that has made so many of your posts so ludicrous . . . but ever so entertaining.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 04:57:37 PM
Quote
Quote from: Louis_Charles on Today at 02:37:28 PM
Her obsession is not pointless. It takes the place of a life.

This is the kind of unnecessary snide remark disguised as humor that is actually a personal attack no other forum in the world will tolerate.

First, no snide remark tossed in your direction can truthfully be described as "unnecessary". Second, it isn't disguised as humor, it is humor. Third, don't be hyperbolic --- even you and I have posted to boards where this kind of thing was tolerated. Of course, we were both doing it under different names. Although mine was "Simon", of course.

Quote
But since it's okay on this one, I'll say, just like yours and Tsarfan's toward me? And P-, uh, Chat's toward AA?

Annie! You do have a sense of humor. Well. Sort of. "P-,uh, Chat's toward AA?"  Genius.

Quote
Quote
I am by way of being a primary witness.

and you are not among those who I trust.

Given the parade of mystic moonshine you have trundled through this forum as "trusted" sources, I am agog to learn that you don't trust me. But I will try and bear up. As I said above, the post is not for you, but for those who might be at all tempted to take you seriously.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 04, 2008, 04:59:15 PM
Anyway, who cares if Chatnoir and Peter Kurth are the same person or not? So what if he is? It just means that he is basically saying the same things under another name. That won't make these things true, the same way they are not true when he says them under his own name. I actually never thought that Kurth was Chatnoir, but then again I never spoke directly to either one of them, nor do I plan to. So it's all the same to me.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 05:06:02 PM
Quote
I hope it's not him, otherwise it would mean he really went off the deep end, which would be quite sad, especially considering it would be about Anna Anderson...

Well, there was a point in the dim past --- you know, about two pages ago --- where you expressed concern. Just trying to help, Helen.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 04, 2008, 05:14:35 PM
Quote
I hope it's not him, otherwise it would mean he really went off the deep end, which would be quite sad, especially considering it would be about Anna Anderson...

Well, there was a point in the dim past --- you know, about two pages ago --- where you expressed concern. Just trying to help, Helen.

I was just being sarcastic, I really couldn't care less. But of course you knew that  ;). Thanks for trying to help though!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 05:23:55 PM


 the post is not for you, but for those who might be at all tempted to take you seriously.


This is exactly what you are doing, and it shows. But don't you realize that when you and your tweedle dum follow me to EVERY thread finding fault with EVERYTHING I post, it only looks like the smear campaign it is? What are you so afraid of? I must have some vital info you don't want revealed, so therefore you have to discredit me at every turn. What happens to the guy in the movie who knows too much? He gets rubbed out. What's the next best thing to do if you can't destroy someone physically? Go on a smear campaign to destroy their credibility by attacking their mentality, intelligence, sanity, etc., ha ha ha don't listen to ol' Annie, etc., just in case random lurker #457 shows up and might believe me. So again, what are you afraid of, and why does it make you so obsessed? 

The most ironic and even laughable thing about all this is, you are doing this so nobody will believe what I say about FOTR, which is pointless, because I'm not even the one who found and broadcast the errors, I only repeated what has been said online by others for at least the last six years! It's even more ironic because it's 'errors' in the book that caused all this! You don't want anyone to pay me any mind so they won't believe there's any problems with it. So, is it okay if Penny puts out inaccurate information, not on a message board, but in a book for sale, yet Annie must be policed at every single turn on a message board, even over silly, trivial things? Can anyone see how ridiculous that is? Obviously, you're not the stickler for accuracy you claim to be, or you wouldn't go to such great lengths to protect a book that has inaccuracies. If you think by completely destroying me to the online community the realities about the book are going to disappear, you are wrong. They were here before I got here and will remain after. Your crusade against me is personal, and it only makes you and your comrade there look like the totally overbearing, self righteous, abrasive, bullying bores you really are.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 05:35:18 PM
Quote from: Tsarfan
Let's see.  On this thread alone, Annie, you have said at least three times that you are gone for good.

I'm not going to argue.

The most ironic and even laughable thing about all this is, you are doing this so nobody will believe what I say about FOTR, which is pointless, because I'm not even the one who found and broadcast the errors, I only repeated what has been said online by others for at least the last six years!

Four.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 05:48:39 PM
In fact, I am not obsessed. I do not stalk you from forum to forum, arguing with you. I did not post to your own message board, arguing with you. By your own account, you and Chat Noir, for example, have been battling across the internet, and only the fact that Kurth and Chat Noir don't post here prevents you from battling them on this site. It gets very tedious to read your posts attacking people who are not here to respond; if you post this sort of nonsense where they can respond, I am sure they are fully capable of taking you on.

Alas, you have not demonstrated that Penny puts out inaccurate information in Fate of the Romanovs, Annie. I object to the idea that you commented upon a book you haven't read. Moreover, you have been commenting on this book for years, polluting the waters of the Alexander Palace site. For the umpty-umph time, there is nothing in Fate of the Romanovs that suggested Anna Anderson was Anastasia Romanovna. If you read the book, you would see that.

When you post otherwise, you are misrepresenting the truth. In fact, it has been a long time since I have read a serious post that maintained Anna Anderson was Anastasia. So who is your intended audience? That would be the random lurker #457, wouldn't it?

Simon
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 05:53:48 PM


Four.



No, I've seen arguments dating back to the summer of '02, when it was just being written. Already, the controversy raged. I didn't even find the online Romanov community until '04.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 04, 2008, 05:55:21 PM


Four.



No, I've seen arguments dating back to the summer of '02, when it wasn't even out yet.

I think you mean google groups? Yes, it's true, some of the most vicious arguments took place back then. It was before many of us even heard of FOTR...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 05:59:25 PM
Anyway, who cares if Chatnoir and Peter Kurth are the same person or not? So what if he is? It just means that he is basically saying the same things under another name. That won't make these things true, the same way they are not true when he says them under his own name.

That's true, it doesn't make a bit of difference like, say, if AA is FS!

I really, really can't believe yet ANOTHER thread has been taken over and ruined by Simon and Tsarfan's smear campaign against me personally, or that any mod would allow it to continue. Regardless of who is involved or what the fight is about, it is a bad thing for the forum. It's actually become a joke! If it's not going to be stopped, at the very least it could be contained in ONE thread to spare all the others the mess. I asked a long time ago to start a 'what I have against Annie' thread in discussion forum and leave the academic stuff to real topics, please. Somebody has to have the sense and decency to stop this.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 06:01:37 PM
Why can't you understand it? You said the other day that you understood why it was permitted. What's happened to change your mind? Just curious. I think this was four threats to shut up ago, which is what I think Tsarfan meant when he posted "Four".
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 06:03:14 PM
I think you mean google groups? Yes, it's true, some of the most vicious arguments took place back then. It was before many of us even heard of FOTR...


Exactly, Helen. Here's an example

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/browse_thread/thread/6543efea315d1fb2/d765277a8734c25b?q=greg+king&lnk=nl&

And yes, this was way before you or I ever heard of the book! Interesting, though, much of what is said in the old fights still rings true today, and some of it is exactly what some have said later, though we never saw the old fight first. I guess that just shows there really is something to it all, where there's smoke,there's fire! This discussion is very old and predates me by years, this is why I really resent being used as some sort of scapegoat who caused it all in a revisionist history plot by those who think by destroying my credibility they can destroy the entire issue. Not true.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 06:09:12 PM
It's even more ironic because it's 'errors' in the book that caused all this!

Annie, I have never seen anyone argue that FOTR is error-free.  I certainly believe it has errors as, in fact, does every book anyone has written on the topic of the last days of the Romanovs.  Errors of fact will eventually diminish as further documents surface from archives and other physical evidence accumulates, but disputes about interpretation will always remain.  When it comes to errors in FOTR, the only defense I ever mounted of that book was regarding the charges that it misrepresented the work of Sykes regarding DNA, that it claimed there was a rape on the Rus, and that the book was an obvious setup for a sequel about Anna Anderson.  On those points, the charges were rather less than persuasive and remain so.

What has "caused all this!", however, is not the fact that FOTR has errors, but the fact that it ignited personal passions far, far out of proportion to any transgression of fact on the rather insignificant topic of whether Anna Anderson was some lost grand duchess.

Sarushka started this thread to discuss those passions, not any one argument pro or con about specific survivor claims.  Despite her pleas, even by the end of page 1 of this thread, she had had to call you down three  times about this.  You made yourself the de facto  Exhibit Number 1 for the case of unreasoning, visceral passion about an ultimately inconsequential matter, historically speaking.  (The footnote of history that will be written about Anna Anderson will not have to do with whether she was Anastasia, but with how her claim joined the other pretender claims that gained temporary steam in Russia's colorful monarchical history.)

Even Peter Kurth has acknowledged that support for the view that Anna Anderson was Anastasia is already waning and will probably not long outlive him and a few other of her advocates.  It doesn't mean that he has changed his own mind.  But it does mean that he has come to terms with the seeming inevitable.

You, on the other hand, simply cannot seem to find your soul's rest on a planet where walks a single human being who will not agree with your views of Anna Anderson.  And -- for some reason no one has yet divined -- you made an unrelenting campaign against one single book the epicenter of the quake that shook your world.  And -- unbelievable as it may seem -- it was a book you never even read.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 04, 2008, 06:31:37 PM
If you want to see  nastiness, check out royal gossip. Talk about a snake pit!
 And Annie, knock it off. Your neurotic paranoia is not amusing, it is downright annoying now. No one is persecuting you, you set yourself up for ridicule.
 After all, it was YOU who brought up Alexandrov and the missing head.
 As for FOTR, who makes you judge and  jury of someone's work?  There are many viewpoints on the work and most are well reasoned on both sides. There are many I disagree with, but still remain friends with as  their arguments are sane and free of personality  conflicts.  As far as I am concerned, K&W have answered their critics and ackowledged the mistakes.   So why drag it on in some personal vendetta?
 It is you and other nameless ad nauseum posters who drag the AA  story on, keeping up the fuss.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 04, 2008, 06:41:53 PM
If you want to see  nastiness, check out royal gossip. Talk about a snake pit!
 

I wonder what it is about royal history that seems to bring out the worst in people!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 04, 2008, 06:48:09 PM
Murder, mayhem, war, regicide...take your pick...;0)

Louise
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Sarushka on August 04, 2008, 06:57:26 PM
Sarushka started this thread to discuss those passions, not any one argument pro or con about specific survivor claims.  Despite her pleas, even by the end of page 1 of this thread, she had had to call you down three  times about this.  You made yourself the de facto  Exhibit Number 1 for the case of unreasoning, visceral passion about an ultimately inconsequential matter, historically speaking.

Indeed. And my reward for doing so was a PM from Annie belittling me as a "nitpicker" and a "nag," among other remarks -- the sort of thing that would unquestionably have been called a "personal attack" had it been posted in public. In light of that first-hand experience, perhaps you'll understand why I too have very little sympathy for Annie's claims of persecution and complaints about off-topic posts rooted in personal hangups.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 07:00:39 PM
Sarushka started this thread to discuss those passions, not any one argument pro or con about specific survivor claims.  Despite her pleas, even by the end of page 1 of this thread, she had had to call you down three  times about this.  You made yourself the de facto  Exhibit Number 1 for the case of unreasoning, visceral passion about an ultimately inconsequential matter, historically speaking.

Indeed. And my reward for doing so was a PM from Annie belittling me as a "nitpicker" and a "nag," among other remarks -- the sort of thing that would unquestionably have been called a "personal attack" had it been posted in public. In light of that first-hand experience, perhaps you'll understand why I too have very little sympathy for Annie's claims of persecution and complaints about off-topic posts rooted in personal hangups.

Wow, thank you! Did you bother to tell them that we also talked very nicely in private and came to understand each other? Of course not, it's more fun to join the bashing. All I told you was that ALL AA threads are going to go the same way, and there's no need to even complain about it. (always ending up in a 'was she wasn't she what about the shoes' battle)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 07:11:47 PM

 After all, it was YOU who brought up Alexandrov and the missing head.

Uh what does that have to do with anything? That's a valid topic, the harassment is not.

Quote
As for FOTR, who makes you judge and  jury of someone's work?

Why not me when so many others have expressed views? That is what everyone forgets- this was NOT my fight, I joined it very late.

Quote
   So why drag it on in some personal vendetta?

Like Simon and Tsarfan are doing me? In EVERY damn thread? Regardless of how or what anyone thinks of me, this is WRONG and nobody else on any forum would put up with it. The issue is not who is right or who did what, the point is, it's OT, disruptive and makes the entire forum look bad. And sorry, that doesn't mean just me.
 
Quote
It is you and other nameless ad nauseum posters who drag the AA  story on, keeping up the fuss.

Wow at least I didn't get blamed alone this time!

Quote
Your neurotic paranoia is not amusing, it is downright annoying now. No one is persecuting you, you set yourself up for ridicule.

Yeah, yeah, being told this by you and FA is like living in a nightmare bad psychological thriller. But one thing you forget is, other people can see this. I have been contacted by several people in private emails, and you'd be surprised at who some of them were because they weren't all people I'd consider friends (though I do now) Also, other people have been chased around the forum hounded and harassed by Simon and Tsarfan and have taken breaks from the forum because of them. There really is quite an underground discussion about them, and  jokes about the possible reasons they have come to behave the way they do and why they feel the need to appoint themselves resident autorities on all from this to gas to anything else. They are overbearing, abrasive, self righteous, know-it-alls(not) who obviously have no life and nothing better to do than hang around here and make people miserable and get a cheap thrill. It's actually very sick. If they're as rich as they claim to be, why aren't they out enjoying all that money and traveling the world? Only losers sit in front of computers all day finding a victim to drag behind their virtual truck. And anyone over 14 who finds entertainment in such things is a very disturbed individual indeed.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Sarushka on August 04, 2008, 07:14:59 PM
Wow, thank you! Did you bother to tell them that we also talked very nicely in private and came to understand each other? Of course not, it's more fun to join the bashing. All I told you was that ALL AA threads are going to go the same way, and there's no need to even complain about it. (always ending up in a 'was she wasn't she what about the shoes' battle)

I have no problem admitting that you apologized promptly after I forwarded the message to FA.

Afterwards we did in fact exchange two civil PMs, but I wouldn't go so far as to say we understood each other, nor that we agreed with each other.

The fact remains that you willfully and repeatedly overrode my wishes regarding this thread, then attacked me behind the scenes for requesting a return to topic. That speaks for itself, particularly from someone who claims to be a victim of bullying.


I for one hereby regard this thread as hopeless -- on ALL topics -- and I will not be replying again. Really. But this time I'll take care to save my PMs...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 08:01:10 PM

I have no problem admitting that you apologized promptly after I forwarded the message to FA.

Oh, I never knew that! No one ever told me. I apologized and tried to explain on my own. I do NOT apologize to people I don't feel I owe one to, and I wouldn't do it.

Actually I admire Michael G, even though I can't stand him, because he wasn't two faced. When he was told to apologize to me, he didn't, and he ended up banned. But give credit to him for not saying what he didn't mean. I am NOT a lair. I do not say things I don't mean. I'd never give a coerced apology to anyone for any reason.

Quote
The fact remains that you willfully and repeatedly overrode my wishes regarding this thread, then attacked me behind the scenes for requesting a return to topic.

It's not all my fault this thread went OT in the first place, and this time, honestly, I didn't even notice who had started the thread currently being used as the all purpose thread. There have been so many. So no need to feel put upon. There's really no need for you to join the bashing now.


Quote
I for one hereby regard this thread as hopeless -- on ALL topics -- and I will not be replying again. Really. But this time I'll take care to save my PMs...

I have them, so don't try to act like there's something in there that didn't happen. If you'll remember the last one I sent you was when I found the Helen Keller pic and told you about it. You already had it, but I did think of you.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 04, 2008, 08:51:07 PM
I have them, so don't try to act like there's something in there that didn't happen.

Well, that's a first . . . someone implying that Sarushka , of all people, is a liar.  You are one amazing piece of work, Annie.


Like Simon and Tsarfan are doing me? In EVERY damn thread?

This is because it seems you show up with your nonsense on EVERY damn thread.

Late this afternoon I logged on and, as usual, checked the "unread posts since last visit".  I noticed a thread that looked interesting about the anthrax story that has been breaking the last few days.  So I go there . . . and what do I find?  The very second post on the thread was from you, where you crowed out the announcement, "It was his DNA that got him caught!"  You then posted a link to a news story which -- need I say it? -- said absolutely nothing of the kind.  In fact, Bruce Ivins' DNA has absolutely nothing to do with the case or even with his becoming a suspect.  You had obviously read a headline, skipped the story itself, jumped to an erroneous conclusion, and thrown it up on this forum as another of the fruits of your "research". 

Of course, had the thread gone off in the direction you were trying to send it, it would have been an utterly ludicrous discussion.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 04, 2008, 09:50:50 PM
Annie, think long and hard about EVEN considering to take Sarushka to task. You would completely lose whatever respect you have left on the board.

Louise
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2008, 10:29:07 PM
Annie, think long and hard about EVEN considering to take Sarushka to task. You would completely lose whatever respect you have left on the board.

Louise

I don't care. NOBODY is going to misrepresent something I said and did. See, the thing about me, I don't give a flying damn how many books somebody writes, or how much money they have, i judge people by one standard only- are you an a-hole or are you a nice and honorable person. You twist something I said, ignored our friendly exchanges and try to say I only did it because was coerced into apology when it never happened, you are not a nice person, and I do not respect you. There was no reason for her to jump on the bandwagon with inaccurate information just to add fuel to the fire.

I never realized there are so many terrible people here, and how much I don't enjoy their company. I'd rather hang with the banned 'reds', they're much more decent people than some of the characters in this thread.

I tell you what, had this happened on Royal forums, many many posts would be deleted, and several of us-me, Simon, Tsarfan and Sarushka- all would have been given private warnings and a public warning against personal messes would be posted. It would never have been carried into six or seven threads because the third time all participants would have been banned. That is fair moderating. Junk belongs on Jerry Springer, not a history forum.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 04, 2008, 11:03:48 PM
Annie, think long and hard about EVEN considering to take Sarushka to task. You would completely lose whatever respect you have left on the board.

Louise

I don't care. NOBODY is going to misrepresent something I said and did.

Gotcha! That statement is beyond belief.

You can misrepresent Penny Wilson, and FOTR for years, and that is perfectly legit. WOW!

Don't start with the.."I didn't start the argument...I just repeated what others had written...I came into the argument last..." You've been all over this board and God knows where else, misrepresenting Penny, her speech to the Eurohistory Forum, and FOTR-- a book which you haven't read.

This thread wasn't about FOTR, but once again, you have turned it into your psychotic little vendetta.

 And once again, Annie, don't  dis Sarushka.

Louise







Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 04, 2008, 11:08:08 PM
Annie, have you lost the center of your Oreo cookie? You are  being really  wacko about this. Go hang out with you "reds" friends at Royal Forum , perhaps you can con some sympathy out of them there.  You have used it up here, for sure.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 11:20:22 PM
Annie,

(1) I'm not rich, nor have I ever represented myself as such. Is it simply impossible for you to make a statement without an error?
(2) As far as spending endless amounts of time online, well, dear heart --- I belong to one (1) forum, this one. You are conducting internet wars all over the damned place, and yet you still seem to be here every time I sign on. Physician, heal thyself. Most of us seem to have jobs that allow us to leave computers tied to the board. Sorry if it offends you, but you obviously have the same kind of work.
(3) For the last time (not really, but why should you be the only one to make empty assertions about how this is the last time you will argue a point): I am aware that you did not "start" the arguments about Fate of the Romanovs.  My point is that you do not have the intellectual right to criticize a book you have never read. It is a question of integrity, and it was supremely irritating to realize that we have been trying to decipher your posts on the basis that you might know what you are talking about. You don't.
(4) Every single person who has ever disagreed with your methods has probably got one of your PMs in storage, railing about how we are trying to "destroy" you and "make you look stupid." I certainly do. You might want to consider (but probably don't) the fact that Tsarfan, Sarushka, Robert and I all agree with your pet cause. Anna Anderson was not Anastasia. What we object to are your methods, which are dishonest --- to put it mildly. You make up things about people's positions, and before you issue another self-righteous tribute to history forums, you should consider that the kind of thing in which you engage has no real place on them. What you have been doing is propaganda, and kind of relentless propaganda at that. It betokens an unhealthy fixation with being right at any cost, even if it means you have to lie to achieve it. The sad thing is that you don't achieve it when you lie. There are always people who read the article more carefully, or who were present at something like Penny Wilson's mythological speech in favor of Anna Anderson.  There are always people who will search the books for the support you quote for a position. And because of these things, you will always be revealed to be lacking --- until you knock it off and do your damned homework.
(5) As I said before, anytime you want to drag out PMs about me from people, I will be happy to do the same. Why don't we call it a draw?

Simon


Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 04, 2008, 11:29:52 PM
Annie,

. You might want to consider (but probably don't) the fact that Tsarfan, Sarushka, Robert and I all agree with your pet cause. Anna Anderson was not Anastasia.

Add me into that group. I don't believe AA was AN. However, I do have Peter Kurth's ,(he who is not ChatNoir--which is how this whole day started, BTW), book. A book I DID READ, disagreed with, but enjoyed none the less. I also respect the author for his many contributions to the history of the  Romanov family.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Holly on August 04, 2008, 11:35:21 PM
No. He has not confirmed it, merely offered his personal opinion based on his personal experiences. According to my personal experiences,  it appears he is. (and others agree) Several of us have expressed an opinion on this, I don't see why his is the end-all. It's not for me.

Annie, Peter Kurth and Chatnoir are not the same person. I've told you this before. I ran a search with his email. I found a lot of information on him; some things I didn't even want to know. Even Peter Kurth has better things to do these days then sit around at home all day on the computer talking about AA.

Let's not attack Sarushka, alright? It's kind of a ridiculous thing to do.
(I tried to think of a metaphor for Sarushka...but...it just didn't happen.)

Simon is incredibly rich. Maybe he'll buy Annie some more oreos...? Something to think about.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2008, 11:37:34 PM
Sorry, Louise. I left you out only because I was unaware of your feelings about Anna Anderson. Welcome to the conspiracy, there's coffee in the living room. And Holly, if you discover the source of my incredible wealth, please pass the information along. My wife will be so relieved.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 04, 2008, 11:38:31 PM
No. He has not confirmed it, merely offered his personal opinion based on his personal experiences. According to my personal experiences,  it appears he is. (and others agree) Several of us have expressed an opinion on this, I don't see why his is the end-all. It's not for me.

Annie, Peter Kurth and Chatnoir are not the same person. I've told you this before. I ran a search with his email. I found a lot of information on him; some things I didn't even want to know. Even Peter Kurth has better things to do these days then sit around at home all day on the computer talking about AA.

Let's not attack Sarushka, alright? It's kind of a ridiculous thing to do.
(I tried to think of a metaphor for Sarushka...but...it just didn't happen.)

Simon is incredibly rich. Maybe he'll buy Annie some more oreos...? Something to think about.

I'm kinda thinking the word saint comes  into mind for Sarushka...Kind to everyone on the board, a mentor to a lot, generous of her time...

Louise

P.S.

Simon, I'm in for a penny...or the next five bet.


 Coffee black and I'll bring the donuts.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Holly on August 05, 2008, 12:02:05 AM
And Holly, if you discover the source of my incredible wealth, please pass the information along. My wife will be so relieved.

You mean you haven't told your wife that you are, in fact, AA's son's best friend's daughter's hair stylist's personal trainer? You may need to tell her that. I'm not saying she'll re-think your relationship, but....
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 05, 2008, 01:30:09 AM
Simon, I am in as well. But make mine a fiver and a Stoli/Perrier, double. Forget the doughnuts for me. I'll bring the caviar dip.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tsarfan on August 05, 2008, 06:15:28 AM
I never realized there are so many terrible people here, and how much I don't enjoy their company.

Annie, by your own account, you have come upon this all-new realization about how terrible we are at least a dozen times in recent weeks.

I once read that fish have the inability to form memories of events lasting more than 15 seconds.  So, four times a minute, they find themselves in a whole new world.

Hmmm.  Maybe this explains why you announce you are departing the forum forever . . . several times a week.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on August 05, 2008, 06:22:21 AM
For those of us who do not know and want to avoid reading 100's of threads from the past what is the argument over FOTR anyway?

I have the book but have not read it yet. 
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: tom_romanov on August 05, 2008, 07:17:28 AM
trying to be peacemaker here-

wasn't the tread about AA- i think that people feel so strongly about her because-

1. they love a good story 'ex king of Russia's youngest daughter survives brutal murder in cellar'

2.they dislike her because she tried to make money out of a person who now we know died.

we must understand that when AA was making her claims the bodies weren't found so it would be easy for her to make out she was AN.
but now people don't like talking bad about the dead because they cant defend themselves - same with pretenders.

now the bodies have been found AN and AA and her story can rest in peace.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on August 05, 2008, 09:01:32 AM
I know I answered the question - what's the big deal - about two thousand  ;-)  pages ago, however.

It was a good solid mystery.  After the Great War, before the second not so great one  ;-) the world was in chaos.  Many had little hope left in their lives.  Many had lost so much in family and friends and loved ones, that the very survival of one young girl whose family was the victim of a brutal murder made for a fairy tale that everyone would have liked to believe in.  (Except maybe Cyril and Ernst and of course Dagmar as she didn't want to believe that any of her cherished family could have died in such a manner.)

I just finished Dynasty - The Astors and Their Times.  There is actually quite a lot about about the time between the wars and the reasons that the UK and Chamberlain almost let Hitler take over Europe without a fight.

What has this to do with ANR vs. AA?  Actually a lot as there were factions who began to realize that what had been done to "punish" Germany and the other aggressors in the Great War was now wrong and they were trying to make amends by "accepting" some of what Hitler and Mussolini were doing as a way of recompense.

The AA thing, in my way of thinking, was a bit the same.  No one had tried to save the Tsar and his family (no one with any clout, that is) and so in the years after the murder to find that even one daughter might have survived could have put some balm on the souls of those who had done nothing.

And to others, the fairy tale and the mystery were enough to engage them for the short and long (in some people's cases) very long term.

I have always asserted (along with many others who are certainly more knowledgeable than I am) that the Treaty of Versailles was the cause of WWII and just about every war since then.

I think that people who lived in the period between the wars began to realize this even in the 20s and 30s and began to look for a way to ease both their consciences and the conditions in the countries that had been so seriously punished and effected by the treaty.

AA (for some) made a perfect and very tangible rallying point.  "We let her family and her country down, so let's not let her down."  And so the fairy tale and the mystery became cause celebre and stayed that way with the help of Gleb Botkin and the lawyers and the others who supported AA and helped her to get her case heard in the German courts.

The very fact that the courts gave a "negative"  ruling - as in she can't prove who she is but we can't prove who she isn't - verdict only let the legend grow.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: tom_romanov on August 05, 2008, 09:07:38 AM
I just finished Dynasty - The Astors and Their Times

you made some good points adn i have to find that book! where did you get it?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 05, 2008, 09:18:11 AM
Hey Tom. Most books we talk about can be purchased at Amazon. Or, if you try your library you might find it there.

Thank you, Tom, for steering us back to the topic.

Louise

P.S. Tom. I know this is OT for this thread..

Why don't you start a new thread and keep us informed of the production of your dollhouse. That way we can have the pleasure of watching you create your masterpeice...and others can contribute their knowledge on doing miniatures.  Call it a work in progress.

All the best on your work,

Louise
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on August 05, 2008, 09:28:21 AM
Tom - I am sure that you can get it from Amazon or your local library or maybe from an out of print book source like ABE or Alibris or Addall.   

I just happen to have gotten it from a friend of my mother's who recently passed away and left her "library" for me to go through.

I got a lot of books I would never have thought of including a copy of Born to Rule which was a duplicate for me and so I passed it along on the duplicate books thread to another good home.

Dynasty - The Astors and Their Times spends a little too long on the first John Jacob - but I finally learned what I had long wanted to find out and that was what ever happened to Madeline's baby after John Jacob IV went down on the Titanic.

The book is worth picking up and the section on Nancy Astor and her husband, Waldorf, who both stood for the Plymouth seat in Commons and won it for over thirty years, is where I got the information about the feelings of people between the wars.  (Nancy and Waldorf were friends of Queen Marie of Roumania)

This is the wrong thread for this discussion, but the book is very much worth reading.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: tom_romanov on August 05, 2008, 10:42:58 AM
thanks Alixz I'm definitely going to buy that- i guess most Romanov fans are also titanic fans? i am.

................

also thanks for the interest in my roombox halen,i start a new topic in having fun later on when it gets started.right now I'm working on the measurements and builders merchants- wood, window, door, wallpaper e.t.c
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: halen on August 05, 2008, 10:47:46 AM
thanks Alixz I'm definitely going to buy that- i guess most Romanov fans are also titanic fans? i am.

................

also thanks for the interest in my roombox halen,i start a new topic in having fun later on when it gets started.right now I'm working on the measurements and builders merchants- wood, window, door, wallpaper e.t.c

You are very welcome. I can't wait to see how your project progresses. And yes, I am also a TITANIC fan.







Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: AGRBear on August 08, 2008, 04:47:54 PM
August 10, 1922, I Arthur Gustavovitch Kleist, questioned the Unknown one who I had taken from the Dalldorf asylum to my house and who called herself the Grand Duchess Anastasia.  She confirmed, in general, the declaration of Zenaiide Sergueiievna Tolstoii, and adds the following:

My son was baptized in January 1919; I do not remember the date.  He was given the name Alexis.

Here is an example of how her story kept changing.  In 1922 she gave her son's name as Alexis.  When asked later, she was extremely indignant at this suggestion and said the son was named Alexander after the father.

From what I understand, Kleist wrote a few things about AA that may or may not have been completely accurate.  He was the one who tells us, also,  that  AA had a child in Dec. 1917 and later AA denied it.    If my memory serves me,   Kleist did not hear any of this directly from AA. 

AGRBear

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: EmmyLee on August 30, 2008, 01:40:16 PM
I must have missed some post in a thread somewhere. You're making a dollhouse, Tom? I know that you seem to be quite interested in the Ipatiev house. Might it be based on that? I too would enjoy a thread following the dollhouse's construction.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: tom_romanov on September 12, 2008, 12:01:27 PM
hi EmmyLee it's not really a dollhouse but more just a diaroma type thing of OTMA's bedroom but know i want to make the N&A&A bedroom and the dining room and living room i've been bitten by the miniature's bug.

ps if anyone out there has the measurements for Ipatiev house please PM me.

thanks
tom  :)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Scottie on December 22, 2008, 01:12:40 AM
Turning back to the issue of the discrepancies of witness/ written record accounts as to the height of AA or FS - I wonder if any of the medical histories for either identity record that her height was measured using a stadiometer. If there was some mention of this the inference would be that the height measurement was correct as possible at the time.

By way of background, the stadiometer was invented by Sir Frances Galton (1822-1911) (cousin to Darwin), the "father " of eugenics and and he also devised a method for classification of finger prints amongst other scientific and social marvels.

Years ago, I worked for an endocrinologist who specialised in child growth disorders. All height measurements were done with a stadiometer by the Endocrinologist himself as the height details were crucial. He always recorded - Height measured using stadiometer... Everynow and then a new nurse (not knowing the clinic practice) would take a height measurement with a tape and it was always quite different to that done with a stadiometer. A stadiometer normally has a flat panel at the top of the device that slides down - much like placing a book on the top of the head - allowing for the measurement at the top of the head.   You can get quite a different height measurement if someone tips their head back.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 28, 2009, 12:53:28 PM
In my opinion Anna was Anastasia! Read through what I wrote:
In reality 'it seems that the DNA test conducted on the biopsy findings of AA in 1994 was bogus. Also remain to be clarified some questions: why were in possession of the rest of Anna Anderson and how it was possible that had been stored for all these years.
Moreover, the examination was conducted by comparing the gene Anderson with that of Edinburgh Prince Philip, husband of Queen Elizabeth II of England and the very distant relative of the Romanovs. Why was the parameters to test DNA of Prince Philip and not that of its closest relatives of Anastasia?
It seems that has never existed a certain Franziska Schwanzkowska. Not to mention that Franziska Schwanzkowska, if it had existed, had fled from Poland two days after the discovery of Anna Anderson.
Even how the discovery of the remains of the Romanov are linked to the mystery. In 1991 when they were found the bodies of the imperial family, was told that the appeal lacked, however, two bodies (that of zarevič and one of the two youngest granduchesse, Maria or Anastasia). But when in 1998 the remains were buried in the Cathedral of Saints Peter and Paul in St. Petersburg were told that all the remains of all members of the imperial family had been found. If this were true, who would be the remains found in the summer of 2007? And it is then possible that in 90 years dall'eccidio of Yekaterinburg unearthed the remains are so well preserved that the examination of DNA svoltovi above will be able to erase any doubt?
whell???

Sincerely I'm not sure that Anna Anderson was the real Anastasia, but however what that you say is true.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 28, 2009, 01:03:12 PM
Final warning - and I am reporting this to the FA: All posts which violate our policy will be deleted.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: franastasia on January 28, 2009, 01:05:14 PM
Thank you romanovsfan4ever!!!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Selencia on January 28, 2009, 08:17:12 PM
So now we know that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, but my question is who really believed she was? I wanted to believe with all my heart that she was Anastasia and that one of them survived. Up until those bodies were found and 2 were missing I had hoped one of the 2 was Anastasia and it proved she didnt die that night. Only a few years ago, even before the other 2 bodies were found did I finally accept that they all died that night. Then I turn around and start hearing about others pretending to be Alexei, Maria, Olga....jeeze it was like a past time for awhile.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: gemellibru on January 30, 2009, 11:28:37 AM
the entire Romanov family, including Anastasia, died in Ekaterinburg, in Ipatiev house in July of 1918!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 30, 2009, 12:23:34 PM
So now we know that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, but my question is who really believed she was? I wanted to believe with all my heart that she was Anastasia and that one of them survived. Up until those bodies were found and 2 were missing I had hoped one of the 2 was Anastasia and it proved she didnt die that night. Only a few years ago, even before the other 2 bodies were found did I finally accept that they all died that night. Then I turn around and start hearing about others pretending to be Alexei, Maria, Olga....jeeze it was like a past time for awhile.

Well, personally, I never believed that any of the claimants were real. The Romanovs and the four servants died in Yekaterinburg. That's the truth. And the ones who don't believe it - well, everyone can live in a lie, right? ::) And Anna Anderson... well, to me, she is one of the Nastya claimants who look at least like her!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: gemellibru on January 30, 2009, 01:37:42 PM
Exact Tina! In the basement of a house Ipatiev nobody came out alive. However, I do not know why, I am very interested in photos of these impostors who have used the name of the imperial Romanov family. But I am very sorry of one thing: Anastasia is not remembered by most people as a beautiful and lovely girl, but as a Polish who has used her name
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 30, 2009, 01:42:30 PM
Exact Tina! In the basement of a house Ipatiev nobody came out alive. However, I do not know why, I am very interested in photos of these impostors who have used the name of the imperial Romanov family. But I am very sorry of one thing: Anastasia is not remembered by most people as a beautiful and lovely girl, but as a Polish who has used her name

Well said!  :)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: gemellibru on January 30, 2009, 02:07:26 PM
Thank RomanovsFan4Ever !!!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on January 30, 2009, 03:02:21 PM

In the basement of a house Ipatiev nobody came out alive.



How about those who killed them? Did they come out dead? Joke,joke,joke!!! (Don't mind this)


 But I am very sorry of one thing: Anastasia is not remembered by most people as a beautiful and lovely girl, but as a Polish who has used her name

Me, too. I'm also sad because Anastasia was known as "Anastasia the movie" by most of the people who still have no in-depth analysis with her.


Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 30, 2009, 03:21:19 PM


 But I am very sorry of one thing: Anastasia is not remembered by most people as a beautiful and lovely girl, but as a Polish who has used her name

Me, too. I'm also sad because Anastasia was known as "Anastasia the movie" by most of the people who still have no in-depth analysis with her.

That is exactly the reason why I don't like the movie very much (well, I liked it when I was little and I didn't know the real story). I know, it's for children, and you can't make a kids' movie that ends like the Imperial Family ended... but still, they should have said something in the beginning... something like... well, that the story in the movie doesn't match the real history.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 30, 2009, 03:35:39 PM
Im with you, girls. I dont like that movie also ¬¬
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on January 30, 2009, 03:39:37 PM



That is exactly the reason why I don't like the movie very much (well, I liked it when I was little and I didn't know the real story). I know, it's for children, and you can't make a kids' movie that ends like the Imperial Family ended... but still, they should have said something in the beginning... something like... well, that the story in the movie doesn't match the real history.

Im with you, girls. I dont like that movie also ¬¬

I watched a little of it (thanks to Lindsey for the link)  and read its synopsis. I hate the idea that Anastasia and Dmitri kissed on the ending! Whoaaa! I prefer not to see the ending if that was it.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 30, 2009, 04:01:23 PM
i refused to see it. In spanish is sooo horrible and the principal song..hideous!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 30, 2009, 04:23:54 PM
Well, I have this movie on DVD (my aunt gave it to me when I was 9 or something like that, but I don't watch it very often). But I decided to watch it a few weeks ago... in English, the DVD only has German and English as languages... but anyway, I'm with you. The ending was terrible. :o
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on January 30, 2009, 06:07:42 PM
I hate seeing it now. The history was misplaced from its script and outline.
Rasputin was made more evil there (though I'm not a Rasputin pro)
I also hate musicals so horrible, I feel my hair standing up!)
Better if Anastasia herself was the actress and she sang the songs! Although she may sound so weird, I would not turn off the TV just to watch her!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 30, 2009, 06:32:57 PM
I also hate musicals so horrible, I feel my hair standing up!)

Well, personally, I don't hate musicals... with the BIG exception of the horrible (no offence to all the fans, but I'm not one of them) "High School Musical"... >:(
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 30, 2009, 06:37:06 PM
if someones needs to puke...here s the spanish version of "anastasia" s song ¬¬

Ewwwwwww!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAQcEoGlLGA)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on January 30, 2009, 06:52:50 PM
I also hate musicals so horrible, I feel my hair standing up!)

Well, personally, I don't hate musicals... with the BIG exception of the horrible (no offence to all the fans, but I'm not one of them) "High School Musical"... >:(


HIGH SCHOOL MUSICAL is my most hatest (wrong grammar intended for exaggeration) musical ever in the history of my life! Don't worry, Tina. Everybody's free to post their opinions (except that I notice we've been far from the topic now....awww)
Sorry for the fans..


if someones needs to puke...here s the spanish version of "anastasia" s song ¬¬

Ewwwwwww!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAQcEoGlLGA)

Ayayayyyy!! It sounds too horrible! Thank you, Katenka! I support you.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on January 31, 2009, 02:34:10 AM
if someones needs to puke...here s the spanish version of "anastasia" s song ¬¬

Ewwwwwww!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAQcEoGlLGA)

There's another Spanish version. The European one which is beautiful. In French, this is wonderful. Better than the English one, IMO.
As for me, I really like this animated movie. (It seems I'm the only one x_x) When you know that is fictional, you're not disappointed. :)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on January 31, 2009, 04:47:57 AM
if someones needs to puke...here s the spanish version of "anastasia" s song ¬¬

Ewwwwwww!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAQcEoGlLGA)

There's another Spanish version. The European one which is beautiful. In French, this is wonderful. Better than the English one, IMO.
As for me, I really like this animated movie. (It seems I'm the only one x_x) When you know that is fictional, you're not disappointed. :)

Well, if you now it's fictional, but some people who don't know the real story of the Romanov family (and I know a lot of people who've never heard about the Romanovs...), may think that the movie presents real history...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 31, 2009, 09:55:39 AM
My sister thought that was the real story ¬¬

The version of the song i posted is from the latin american version. Im sure there s an Spanish (From spain) version...still..im not willing a bit to see it xD
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on January 31, 2009, 10:09:10 AM
WHAT does this discussion have to do with Anna Anderson?? Stay on topic please...

FA
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on January 31, 2009, 12:46:19 PM
So sorry... Sir FA.
It started from my post...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 01, 2009, 04:13:00 AM
WHAT does this discussion have to do with Anna Anderson?? Stay on topic please...

FA

Oh! I just thought of my answer to this, Sir. (but I don't know if this is appropriate)
Anastasia movie was from all Anna Anderson's orchestrations about being the real Anastasia Nikolaevna...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on February 01, 2009, 08:44:29 AM
WHAT does this discussion have to do with Anna Anderson?? Stay on topic please...

FA

Oh! I just thought of my answer to this, Sir. (but I don't know if this is appropriate)
Anastasia movie was from all Anna Anderson's orchestrations about being the real Anastasia Nikolaevna...

Hehe, you're quite right... :D
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 01, 2009, 08:51:19 AM
WHAT does this discussion have to do with Anna Anderson?? Stay on topic please...

FA


I have to agree with Forum Admin

Back to topic

About "Mystery of Anne" i must say the actress who played AA is very pretty but what a pity is that AA wasn't beauty.... If the things in the movie were real then this would be on of the best  based on that story...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: gemellibru on February 01, 2009, 12:23:14 PM
You know the true story of Franziska Schanzkowska?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 01, 2009, 03:26:06 PM
Yes since i'm Romanov fan for couple of years it wouldn't be strange to know it :D
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 02, 2009, 03:13:52 AM
Just thought of this a while ago today...If Anna Anderson was claiming she's Anastasia, did she show some pics of herself when she was 2o years old or possibly when she was 18 years old? From those we could know the true similarities between them, right, as there is a little age gap from when the murder took place. Has anybody got Anna A.'s signature, too? I'm a specialist in seeing the authentic signature of a person or not..(jokie)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on February 02, 2009, 03:27:55 AM
Just thought of this a while ago today...If Anna Anderson was claiming she's Anastasia, did she show some pics of herself when she was 2o years old or possibly when she was 18 years old? From those we could know the true similarities between them, right, as there is a little age gap from when the murder took place. Has anybody got Anna A.'s signature, too? I'm a specialist in seeing the authentic signature of a person or not..(jokie)

Yes, Anna had a signature, but it was very similar to Nastya's one (I mean, she wanted to prove she's the Grand Duchess, so she wanted to have similar handwriting as Anastasia... she tried to copy her signature) I have no pics of AA's signature, though. :-[
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 02, 2009, 03:36:25 AM
It's okay, Tina. I've found gemel's link. I made my conclusions on the Photos of Claimants thread already.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: gemellibru on February 02, 2009, 04:43:19 AM
In the link I put there a photo of the signature of Anna Anderson ...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 02, 2009, 08:01:57 AM
It's okay, Tina. I've found gemel's link. I made my conclusions on the Photos of Claimants thread already.

Sweety look in the link there is her signature... :)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Lemur on February 03, 2009, 11:33:39 AM
Just thought of this a while ago today...If Anna Anderson was claiming she's Anastasia, did she show some pics of herself when she was 2o years old or possibly when she was 18 years old? From those we could know the true similarities between them, right, as there is a little age gap from when the murder took place.

You only need to see her mug shot picture that was taken when she was saved from the canal. The date was February 1920. The execution took place one year eight months before. Anastasia would have been 18 years 7 months old. Franziska S. would have been 23 years 2 months of age.

(http://www.dnai.org/images/mc4/romanovs/anna_anderson.jpg)


Quote
Has anybody got Anna A.'s signature, too? I'm a specialist in seeing the authentic signature of a person or not..(jokie)

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k136/tsarskoe/hand1.jpg)

Writing at top was done by ANR herself. Writing in center was done by Fran. S. Signature at the very bottom is that of Andersen.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 04, 2009, 04:16:10 AM
Good catch, Lemur! Thank you...I still can't see any identical curves on ANR's handwriting and Franziska (A.A.)'s one.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Papa on February 14, 2009, 04:12:27 PM
Forgive me please if this has been already said, since I am new to this wonderful site discussion. It is not entirely impossible that Anasatasia may have escaped. The murder room was 16x20, one lightbulb, the murdereres were all drunk, intent on not only violence but valuables. In such a tiny room, filled with smoke and bodies, in the confusion someone  could have easiily been aided. Agree that Alexei could not surviive.

But Ms Anderson say she hit head when Tachenka fall on her, knock her out, after hitting basment floor - they murderers  think she-  Anastasia dead.

Now, Anna Anderson knew a great deal many, many unpublished things. Prince Sigismund - Princess Irene's son - was able to aske her many questions, in writing and she knew the answers correctly. Also, the fact that her Uncle Ernest was in Russia to negotiate separate peace.  Her photo anayslsis, ear comparison, and handwriting were all matches with the Grand Duchess. Also Flix Dassel  - officer in Tsarsky royal hospital, recognize her.

Gilliard and Olga (Nicholas's sister) recognize her but too afraid of how she know that Ernest was in Russia during war,and no one, not no one, especiallly Olga who had to live with Dowager Empress want to anger her. She was  implacable woman with big temper. She no like Olga marry commoner, and boss her around like her sister Alexandra did with her own daughter Toria.

If it was she, there would have been lot to fear from British Royal Family, King George to be exact, whose refuse  asylum sentenced them to death in Russia; Queen Mary later cheating GD's Xenia and Olga from their share of jewelry from Dowager Empress jewel collection after her death; Bolshevik's no want to see her alive, she know of true horror; and if true that dowry money deposited in England, bankers no want to see her and lose money; all emigres and ardent monarchists , no want to see this broken down girl as their GD; she ruin luster of memories, esp she have baby from captor. Also, people nursing grudge against family, like Yussopov who tried to kill Miss Anderson when she in America at Leeds mansion. List goes on an on.

Is possible that science wrong, or people like English Royal Family, and others not want to see Anderson recognize. They have like say in this country mud on their face? Also, I remember CIA was doing work on the bones in 1991.

Truth be really known when we are all dead ourselves, I think.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on February 14, 2009, 04:22:02 PM
I'm not quite sure if you're trying to say that it's possible that A.A. is Anastasia, or not. :-\ Now that the bodies are found, I think we can say that Anastasia didn't escape. But I'll tell you that - I never saw any resemblances between Nastya and Anna Anderson. I don't think their handwriting match as well.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 14, 2009, 04:43:55 PM
According Papa's post #47
Anna Anderson's DNA don't match with the Romanov blood...I think this clue explains that all she said is lie....The bolsheviks would never allowed anyone to escape there were guards everywhere....In the house upon the house outside the house and no one was so stupid to take out Grand Duchess and to lie in jail for that...Among that Yurovski counted the bodies....And shot each one again for sure..... He knew very well which ones names and he made sure they are all dead....

p:s Which princess Irene are you speaking about?Yussupova(Alexandrovna)?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 14, 2009, 08:47:44 PM
According to Yurovsky's Account, the IF and their companions were complete when the murder was carried out.
When they also inspected the bodies, all of them are still complete, likewise when they (the murderers) buried all the bodies (except for Maria's and Alexei's  which were intentionally parted from the company to avoid quick recognition as soon as the burial place is discovered by Whites).
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on February 14, 2009, 08:53:11 PM
Forgive me please if this has been already said, since I am new to this wonderful site discussion. It is not entirely impossible that Anasatasia may have escaped. The murder room was 16x20, one lightbulb, the murdereres were all drunk, intent on not only violence but valuables. In such a tiny room, filled with smoke and bodies, in the confusion someone  could have easiily been aided. Agree that Alexei could not surviive.

But Ms Anderson say she hit head when Tachenka fall on her, knock her out, after hitting basment floor - they murderers  think she-  Anastasia dead.

Now, Anna Anderson knew a great deal many, many unpublished things. Prince Sigismund - Princess Irene's son - was able to aske her many questions, in writing and she knew the answers correctly. Also, the fact that her Uncle Ernest was in Russia to negotiate separate peace.  Her photo anayslsis, ear comparison, and handwriting were all matches with the Grand Duchess. Also Flix Dassel  - officer in Tsarsky royal hospital, recognize her.

Gilliard and Olga (Nicholas's sister) recognize her but too afraid of how she know that Ernest was in Russia during war,and no one, not no one, especiallly Olga who had to live with Dowager Empress want to anger her. She was  implacable woman with big temper. She no like Olga marry commoner, and boss her around like her sister Alexandra did with her own daughter Toria.

If it was she, there would have been lot to fear from British Royal Family, King George to be exact, whose refuse  asylum sentenced them to death in Russia; Queen Mary later cheating GD's Xenia and Olga from their share of jewelry from Dowager Empress jewel collection after her death; Bolshevik's no want to see her alive, she know of true horror; and if true that dowry money deposited in England, bankers no want to see her and lose money; all emigres and ardent monarchists , no want to see this broken down girl as their GD; she ruin luster of memories, esp she have baby from captor. Also, people nursing grudge against family, like Yussopov who tried to kill Miss Anderson when she in America at Leeds mansion. List goes on an on.

Is possible that science wrong, or people like English Royal Family, and others not want to see Anderson recognize. They have like say in this country mud on their face? Also, I remember CIA was doing work on the bones in 1991.

Truth be really known when we are all dead ourselves, I think.



We do NOT permit discussion that any person survived that night. The DNA testing is conclusive, without question and is now the final answer on the subject.  As you are new here, I want to advise you of our rules.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 15, 2009, 07:24:47 AM
We do NOT permit discussion that any person survived that night. The DNA testing is conclusive, without question and is now the final answer on the subject.  As you are new here, I want to advise you of our rules.

I have to agree with FA.... One user Franastasia violate the rules and got penalty to what i understood....
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on February 15, 2009, 09:19:03 AM
Yes, you are right...unfortunately this user had violated the rules, and got penalty, I'm very sorry for Franastasia  :( , but the rules must be respected.
I have to agree with Forum Admin.

Just curious, is the penalty for Franastasia definitive or he/she can return in the forum?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 15, 2009, 09:13:23 PM
I'm not sure. I did try to warn Franastasia several times. I'm very understanding about language and cultural differences, but he/she refused to follow our rules. So, I was left no other choice but to report the problem to the FA.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 16, 2009, 02:47:06 AM
Maybe her account got frozen because she haven't entered since 30 January.....
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on February 16, 2009, 09:52:41 AM
Oh no....She was banned for violating the rules and repeatedly ignoring Lisa's requests.  Lisa, as a Mod, speaks with my full authority, and refusing her requests was the same as refusing mine.  I suppose that if she wrote me an email of apology and asked to come back and promising to abide by the rules I would allow her to return. She has not.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 16, 2009, 11:56:15 AM
Well i don't think she would do it...She was only 11 if i'm not wrong...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on February 16, 2009, 12:27:33 PM
I think there's a difference between being only eleven and being blind and stupid :) But she hasn't respected the rules and now deserved to be banned, no matter how old she was...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 16, 2009, 12:53:42 PM
I think there's a difference between being only eleven and being blind and stupid :) But she hasn't respected the rules and now deserved to be banned, no matter how old she was...

As I mentioned, I do try to be understanding with everyone - including young people - but she never demonstrated to Rob and me that she wanted to follow the rules of the Forum. If she changes her mind about this, she is welcome to email the FA and let him know she's willing to abide by the direction of  the Moderators and the rules. As he said, he would probably let her return under these circumstances.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 17, 2009, 03:16:48 AM
In joining a forum, there comes a big responsibility and that is to conform with the given rules.
I know so many people here aged below 11 and they perform well on commenting in every thread.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on February 17, 2009, 04:54:14 AM
Yes, it's true.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Lemur on February 17, 2009, 11:46:06 AM
Who said the person was 11? In their post they claimed to be 16

sorry but I am an Italian of 16 years! I just wanted pictures of suitors! sorry ...

I never took the person seriously in the first place because he/she seemed like a troll.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 17, 2009, 12:09:52 PM
I know here from YT...she is not really 16... a fake
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Erika on February 17, 2009, 02:48:36 PM
I know that Franastasia did not follow the forum rules, but I feel that we should end this discussion. Even tough she behaved wrong, I don't feel good about discussing a person who is not here to defend herself. We all know what she did, and hopefully, none of us will repeat her mistakes. Now, let us end this discussion about her. I feel so bad.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 17, 2009, 08:57:52 PM
I know that Franastasia did not follow the forum rules, but I feel that we should end this discussion. Even tough she behaved wrong, I don't feel good about discussing a person who is not here to defend herself. We all know what she did, and hopefully, none of us will repeat her mistakes. Now, let us end this discussion about her. I feel so bad.


I agree that discussion about Franastasia should end - it's off topic.

The reason she's no longer here has been clearly explained and the means for her to rejoin us, too.

There is really nothing for you to feel badly about, Erica. You have done nothing and she was given every chance to remain here.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 18, 2009, 02:44:47 AM
Is there a picture of A.A. on 1920-1925?
I want to compare her pictures to Nastya (and prove that they really don't look alike).
What lemur posted is of F.Schankowzska's. I could say by that A.A. looks more alike to her.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 18, 2009, 02:48:31 AM
Ingrid i already post in the other thread a picture to see if there are common things...Here is quote
And you are looking those two picture and compare Anastasia with that woman?
(http://i060.radikal.ru/0901/e4/1af839e91f4ct.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/i060.radikal.ru/0901/e4/1af839e91f4c.jpg.html)

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on February 18, 2009, 03:50:18 AM
Thank you for the picture Irina!
No common things for me.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 18, 2009, 11:52:34 AM
Well,if that's her on 1920-1925, I'll say she looks so old! She even doesn't look like  young adult! My guh.
Thanks for quoting it again, Elishka!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 18, 2009, 12:37:12 PM
You are both always welcome
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Lemur on February 18, 2009, 01:47:45 PM
Is there a picture of A.A. on 1920-1925?
I want to compare her pictures to Nastya (and prove that they really don't look alike).
What lemur posted is of F.Schankowzska's. I could say by that A.A. looks more alike to her.

What I posted was AA from her mug shot when she first was pulled out of the canal in 1920. Besides not looking like Nastya, she looks too old to be the age Nastya would have been which would have been 18 yrs. 8 mo.

There is a very good AA/FS/AN photo thread here on this forum

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=gglsssnt9p4tjl5osorhpp9o87&topic=9685.0

here is one about FS's and AA's faces

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=gglsssnt9p4tjl5osorhpp9o87&topic=2418.0

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on February 18, 2009, 01:49:41 PM
Anna Anderson's nose is different than Anastasia's. Their face structures don't match - Anna A. has a different chin etc. And A.A. looks so, hum, ugly. Nastya would have never looked like that. I just don't understand all the people who believed her. ???
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Ally Kumari on February 18, 2009, 02:09:12 PM
very good comparism to be found here: http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/photographiccomparisons.htm
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on February 18, 2009, 02:48:09 PM
I know this site. It has some very good comparisons. Thanks for posting the link, Ally!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on February 19, 2009, 06:18:44 AM
Yah, Ally. Thank you so much!
I notice the part of the nose above the philtrum of A.A. looks blunt while Nastaska's a bit noticeably sharp.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: rgt9w on February 19, 2009, 05:00:22 PM
I am posting this link to an article recently published about Anna Anderson Manahan. I am posting this to show that there is still local interest in her, not to promote her claim as that has been resolved by the findings in Ekaterinburg.  Of note, only Mr. Manahan's remains are in the grave at the University of Virginia cemetery. According to a message I received from a University Representative, none of Mrs. Manahans remains (ashes) were interred here.

http://www.readthehook.com/blog/index.php/2009/2/14/annas-versary-anastasia-manahan-recalled-25-years-after-death



Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: yussupov29 on March 08, 2009, 04:59:36 PM

I was currious why Anna Anderson's remains were burried on the cementery at Kloster Seeon, where other memebers of Russian noble families lie. If she was a fake (what I believe), it doesn't make sense to me?

Can someone tell me something about is, please!?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on March 09, 2009, 04:04:34 AM
The DNA testing was not yet conducted on the year she died (she died on 1984; the DNA test was conducted on 90's)
By that reason, she was not yet known to be a fake or authentic Anastasia Romanova. I don't think if I'm right with this. Somebody knows for sure.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 09, 2009, 08:43:47 AM
The DNA testing was not yet conducted on the year she died (she died on 1984; the DNA test was conducted on 90's)
By that reason, she was not yet known to be a fake or authentic Anastasia Romanova. I don't think if I'm right with this. Somebody knows for sure.

I think you are right. ;-)
If I had been the first to write on this topic, I would have said the same things that you said.
And I'm agree with yussupov29, Anna Anderson was NOT the real Grand Duchess Anastasia.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 09, 2009, 08:57:51 AM
And I'm agree with yussupov29, Anna Anderson was NOT the real Grand Duchess Anastasia.

That is not a matter of a dscussion any longer. That is a fact.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 09, 2009, 09:13:59 AM
Oh yes!, I'm totally agree with you Ally, that is a fact.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Lemur on March 09, 2009, 10:36:08 AM
Anna had always wanted to be buried at Castle Seeon in Germany, a place she stayed in the 1920s with one of her biggest supporters, the Duke of Leuctenberg. She thought it was beautiful and a nice place to rest, I suppose. It's not a place where royalty are known to be buried, there are no other Romanovs there, so it's nothing special in that way for her to be there.

When she died in 1984, she was cremated, and it's only her ashes which are buried there. Some found it strange she requested cremation since if she had been Anastasia she'd have been raised in the Orthodox church she'd have been opposed to it. That is why many people believe she wanted to be cremated so that no tests could ever be done on her body to prove her a fake. She was cremated almost immediately after death due to her requests. The DNA tests, performed ten years after her demise, were done on a piece of intestine stored at the hospital where she had surgery in 1979.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 09, 2009, 10:50:12 AM
She was an impostor, but she was very astute, that was a beautiful plan to request to be cremated to prevent future DNA tests, but unfortunately for her, there was that little piece of intestine that was fatal to her plan. ;-)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on March 09, 2009, 11:50:29 AM
Yes, cremation was certainly something the real Nastya wouldn't do (I believe), after being raised in Russian Orthodox.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: nena on March 09, 2009, 01:11:29 PM
DNA testing AA was in 1994, I think. Yes, Orthodox church is against cremation.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on March 09, 2009, 02:57:17 PM
She was an impostor, but she was very astute, that was a beautiful plan to request to be cremated to prevent future DNA tests, but unfortunately for her, there was that little piece of intestine that was fatal to her plan. ;-)

DNA testing had not even been thought of when AA died so she was not "astute" about anything. In fact the AA sample in 1904 was the very first time DNA testing had ever been tried
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on March 09, 2009, 03:18:57 PM
She was an impostor, but she was very astute, that was a beautiful plan to request to be cremated to prevent future DNA tests, but unfortunately for her, there was that little piece of intestine that was fatal to her plan. ;-)

DNA testing had not even been thought of when AA died so she was not "astute" about anything. In fact the AA sample in 1904 was the very first time DNA testing had ever been tried

You mean 1994, right? :)
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 09, 2009, 03:34:02 PM
She was an impostor, but she was very astute, that was a beautiful plan to request to be cremated to prevent future DNA tests, but unfortunately for her, there was that little piece of intestine that was fatal to her plan. ;-)

DNA testing had not even been thought of when AA died so she was not "astute" about anything. In fact the AA sample in 1904 was the very first time DNA testing had ever been tried

Yes, you are right, she was not "astute" as I thought, thank you for the correction!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: imperial angel on March 09, 2009, 04:03:29 PM
Why did she want to be cremated then? I'm not sure if biographies of AA ever addressed the issue- it's been years since I read the Kurth one and I don't own it. I just did search on this issue here on the forum, and all I could find on it was Alixz's opinion expressed awhile ago that the cremation was Jack Manahan's choice to prevent other ID efforts with regards to her as Anastasia, even though this was before DNA testing.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: macloskie on March 10, 2009, 02:39:04 PM
Does anyone know anything about John Manahan, the gentleman who married Anna Anderson--beyond the basic info, which most of us know, i.e., he was much younger than Anderson, he was a history professor, etc?

I've wondered how he was regarded before his marriage to Anderson, and also what happened to him after her death.

Thanks in advance!
[I knew Doctor Manahan as a student at the College of Charleston in Charleston, South Carolina.  He taught history and government there from September, 1961 until May, 1963.

He was very smart but possessed some rather unusual ideas and beliefs.  He taught without referring to notes.  He held the idea that peace in the world would not come about until there was a chinese pope and believed that Fidel Castro, knowing his anti Castro position would try to have him killed and, for that reason, refused to travel to South Florida thinking the attempt on his life would take place there.

While in Charleston he rented a room in the Tiffany House on the corner of Meeting Street and South Battery. 

I do not remember him having any friends but he liked to talk with his students.

He was taken wth royalty and liked to think of himself as some sort of minor royalty in the service of some greater nobility.

When he left the College of Charleston he seemed to have just disappeared.  Years later, I believe in 1968, I received a letter from him.  He was teaching in Iceland for the University of Maryland extension service.

In 1972 or 1973, while eating breakfast in the Fort Sumter Hotel, I felt a hand on my shoulder and looked up.  There was Doctor Manahan.  He asked those with me to excuse us and took me over to his table and there introduced me to his wife, Anna Anderson.

He was a kind and caring man.  However, he obviously wanted to be something other than he was.

Hopefully, this is something of what you wanted.
/quote]
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Maria Romanova on April 09, 2009, 02:39:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2X1wDQREjw&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2X1wDQREjw&feature=related)
Anna Anderson.
by Tatiana Romanov
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: tom_romanov on April 10, 2009, 04:26:40 AM
Thanks for the link Tatiana- it is amazing to hear her speak (and also doesn't the video prove that John Manahan was only marrying her for the fame?- he forgot which month they married)

also has anyone scrolled down the page to read the comments. heres one i found shocking and shows real lack of understanding and knowledge (I edited a word) -

LBRTRN89 (3 weeks ago) Show Hide  0   Marked as spam Reply - The mother was b***h and the driving force behind Bloody Nicholas and his tyrannical reign. She was lucky to have died in such a quick death the kids I admit it's aid the had to die but the two older daughters were adults.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Proud_Olga on April 10, 2009, 11:28:32 AM
Thanks for the link Tatiana- it is amazing to hear her speak


Especially when one hears her Eastern European accent. How could people believe her? Anastasia fluently spoke English since she was a child.
About John Manahan - at 5:31 he confuses Olga with Maria. And he pretends being their sister's husband? XD.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Maria Romanova on April 14, 2009, 04:07:35 AM
yeah!!!! XD
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Ally Kumari on April 14, 2009, 04:39:48 AM
Am I the only one who is shocked at that woman manners? Anastasia was impish, but not rude!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: tom_romanov on April 14, 2009, 04:54:21 AM
Did anyone else notice the look she gave John when he said " I can prove who I am" lol
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on April 14, 2009, 05:45:53 AM
Thanks for the link Tatiana- it is amazing to hear her speak


Especially when one hears her Eastern European accent. How could people believe her? Anastasia fluently spoke English since she was a child.
About John Manahan - at 5:31 he confuses Olga with Maria. And he pretends being their sister's husband? XD.


Exactly. I'm just so angry when I hear it, when I think about it... that people really believed she was Anastasia... come on, how could one confuse Olga with Maria?! And, as Siham said, a man whose wife pretends to be their sister... : X
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: gemellibru on April 14, 2009, 07:01:29 AM
Anna=Anastasia???? No!
Anna=Franziska???? Yes! XD
 
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 07, 2009, 01:20:34 PM
I don't Know why people believed her. She wasn't Anastasia, she was just a Polish worker named Fransiska Schanzkowski. (The DNA of Anna Is the same of that family)
She didn't die in 1994, she died in 1984.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 07, 2009, 01:59:28 PM
She didn't die in 1994, she died in 1984.

Yes. We were talking about the DNA testing that was done after she died...
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 07, 2009, 06:39:58 PM
oh, Excuse me!!! :-(
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Maria Romanova on May 13, 2009, 06:47:58 AM
(http://nerger.biz/sonstige_2/sonstige_3/sonstige_4/sonstige_5/sonstige_6/anastasiabd.jpg)      (http://mentalfloss.cachefly.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/431anderson.jpg)
 Franziska                                                                                                                                                 Anna




I have never succeeded in understanding a thing: before the results of the test of the Dna, that it puts to knowledge the whole world that Ann was not Anastasia on the contrary Franziska, was not known that Ann was a liar? 
1_ The only photo (appeared in 1927, therefore before the test of the Dna) of Franziska clearly points out that Ann and Franziska were the same person.   
2_ In a trial the sister of Franziska recognizes that Ann is her sister. 

Why, was not the identity of Ann Anderson already known then? :?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Maria Romanova on May 13, 2009, 06:56:09 AM
Does you know the day when Franziska escaped from Poland?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on May 13, 2009, 09:29:26 AM
I can only request patience from you.  A new book is well under way, due to the publisher this fall for a release early next year.  It will answer every single question here, and THEN SOME!  Much much much new and undiscovered information brings this entire story to light.

I can't tell you more than that for now, other than Bob and I, among others, have been consulting with the author on the project.

Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: imperial angel on May 13, 2009, 03:54:26 PM
I'm really glad to hear there is finally going to be a book on this subject. I can't wait to read it. I think it's about time someone did a book, since there haven't been any books only on AA in recent years since she was proven not to be Anastasia(Kurth and Blair Lovell were before DNA proved her false) and since the remains of the fourth daughter were located, except the At the Court of Anna Anderson book, which basically focused on AA and the people surrounding her when she claimed to be AA, and not on any other issues.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Olga Maria on May 13, 2009, 07:59:11 PM
Pity it's gonna take tome before all of us and the whole world could know about how fake Anna Anderson is. FS' ans AA have very great resemblance with each other.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: stepan on May 14, 2009, 05:53:20 PM
I suppose you mean when she left her home town in Pomerania? Franziska was a German citizen and her home place was a part of Germany. There was no Poland when Franziska grew up. It was recreated in 1918 after the first world war. She is supposed to have left her home around 1914  and went to Berlin. No exact date is known. She worked as a waitress,met a man,Erwin who was later killed in the war.  Her niece Waltraut Schanzkowski said  abour her "my auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the four children.She did not want to be buried in a little one-horse town in the dephts of Kashubia, she wanted to come out into the world,wanted to be an actress-something special."    Indeed she became something special !!                                                                                     
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 18, 2009, 11:27:18 PM
I can only request patience from you.  A new book is well under way, due to the publisher this fall for a release early next year.  It will answer every single question here, and THEN SOME!  Much much much new and undiscovered information brings this entire story to light.

Thanks, that will cost me something to buy to put alongside Peter Kurth's book, but well worth it to save me printing out numerous posts from this forum.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: markjhnstn on May 19, 2009, 01:38:38 AM
I think this will be a very interesting book!
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on May 25, 2009, 05:28:55 PM
This thread will contain all the information about  Franziska Schanzkowska - who was known as Anna Anderson - and how she claimed to be Grand Duchess Anastasia
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Maria Romanova on June 05, 2009, 02:38:06 PM
(http://www.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2003/106/8468_1050601282.jpg)

This photo of what year it is?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Tina Laroche on June 05, 2009, 02:57:12 PM
As far as I know, it was taken in 1929.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 20, 2009, 02:57:45 PM
Several pictures I´ve not seen before

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/00022586.jpg)

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/00069941.jpg)

In hospital
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/00069942.jpg)

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/00069943.jpg)

Looking at portrait of her "mother"

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/marked/00022585.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Maria Romanova on June 22, 2009, 02:14:18 AM
Thanks Grand Duchess Ally!!! For me these photos are new!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 22, 2009, 08:25:47 AM
Anna anderson and Dr John Manahan. If this picture has been previously posted, mods, feel free to delete it


(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5069/annaandersonanddrjohnma.jpg) (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/annaandersonanddrjohnma.jpg/)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Maria Romanova on June 25, 2009, 05:49:04 AM
But the song "Yes Anastasia" of Tori Amos  is devoted to Anna Anderson? :?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 25, 2009, 05:59:36 AM
It is. I´ve read the singer saw AA in her sleep and talked to her, and that inspired her....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on June 25, 2009, 08:42:36 AM
So Tori Amos saw Anna Anderson in a dream and then was inspired to write a song dedicated to Franziska Schanzkowska (since AA is FS and not ANR) but make it about the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicholaevna?

I think she got her spirits crossed.   Sheesh!  More rot!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Angelle on June 25, 2009, 06:48:48 PM
Hi,
 I've become interested in Romanov claimants recently and was wondering if anyone could recommend any good books to a gal starting out? I confess I was a believer. The Anna Anderson DNA result broke my heart! But I'm interested in who the claimants really were...this site is great!

 Thanks to anyone who can help! A xxx
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on June 25, 2009, 06:50:41 PM
Quote
But I'm interested in who the claimants really were...this site is great!

In my opinion none of the claimants were real...For me NAOTMAA died in 17 July 1918.... About book i can't help i'm not very interest in the claimants
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 26, 2009, 12:57:40 AM
It´s not just your oppinion. It´s a fact confirmed by science and good sense.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on June 26, 2009, 08:13:45 AM
The best books to begin with, if you are interested in claimants, are Anastasia - The Riddle of Anna Anderson by Kurth and Anastasia - The Lost Princess by Lovell.

However, keep in mind that both books, though they come across as biographies, are not and should be treated as the fiction they are.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: imperial angel on June 26, 2009, 03:45:24 PM
I think what Angelle meant when she said who the claimants really were, was not that they were the Romanovs but that she was interested in their real identities as people, like AA being Franziska Schanzkowska. A good book that mentions the claimants although it's not wholly devoted to them is Robert K. Massie's last book on the Romanovs' deaths, I can't recall the title. There is a book about Vasily Filatov's claim to be Tsarvitch Alexei, too. Also, At the Court of Anna Anderson, is the most recent book on AA, published in 2007. There's a VERY interesting chapter on what motivated the claimants to be claimants in Wendy Slater's book the Many Deaths of Tsar Nicholas II, it's more academic and only occupies one chapter of the book, but it is enlightening.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on June 27, 2009, 09:54:42 AM
I think you mean - Romanovs - The Final Chapter  By Massie.

I see what you mean now.  I misunderstood her question.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Angelle on June 28, 2009, 02:00:52 PM
Thanks Alix and Imperial Angel, I will definately look up (or attempt to!) your suggestions! I don't think I did make myself clear...I did believe there were survivors, but I know from DNA and other scientific investigations this is not the case and I accept it (although, as I said I was heart broken!). As Imperial Angel said I am interested in who they really were and why they claimed to be someone they weren't...I have a thoery with AA that being Anastasia was better then being Franziska, from what I've read she had a really tough time of it and was probably mentally ill.
 Years ago my dad told me that one of the Anastasia claimants was probably a servent in the Royal court (he'd read a book about her) but he couldn't remember her name...was this Eugenia Smith does anyone think?
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: EPHMOC on October 22, 2009, 04:25:36 PM
Does you know the day when Franziska escaped from Poland?
FS had never been in Poland ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 25, 2009, 12:03:38 AM
Thanks Alix and Imperial Angel, I will definately look up (or attempt to!) your suggestions! I don't think I did make myself clear...I did believe there were survivors, but I know from DNA and other scientific investigations this is not the case and I accept it (although, as I said I was heart broken!). As Imperial Angel said I am interested in who they really were and why they claimed to be someone they weren't...I have a thoery with AA that being Anastasia was better then being Franziska, from what I've read she had a really tough time of it and was probably mentally ill.
 Years ago my dad told me that one of the Anastasia claimants was probably a servent in the Royal court (he'd read a book about her) but he couldn't remember her name...was this Eugenia Smith does anyone think?

One topic that's never been covered to my knowledge is how many of the stories of Ekaterinburg surviviors mentions the survivor going to Romania. I believe Eugenia Smith was a Romanian, she was not a servant at the Imperial Court.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on April 11, 2010, 06:38:17 PM
I first heard of this back in the late 70's, on a show called In Search Of, which was hosted by Leonard Nimoy (who of course played Spock on Classic Star Trek).  I recently found that episode on YouTube and watched it.  They interviewed people on both sides of the fence.  At that time, AA was still alive, and living in Viriginia, and they talked to her and her husband, John Manahan.  Actually, John seemed to do most of the talking.  At one point, when AA is asked about the ongoing attempts to prove or disprove her claim, she said "I spit on them!"

Of course, back in the 1970's, there was still some doubt.  By the time the DNA tests debunked her claim, both Anna and John Manahan were dead (she died in 1984, he died in 1990).  I sometimes wonder about John, did he really believe AA was Anastasia, or was he a willing part of the con.  I guess we'll never really know.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 16, 2010, 06:57:03 PM
Just my opinion, but it seems to me that John Manahan was very eccentric. And I think by then FS believed her own con.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: AGRBear on April 17, 2010, 03:26:40 PM
The best books to begin with, if you are interested in claimants, are Anastasia - The Riddle of Anna Anderson by Kurth and Anastasia - The Lost Princess by Lovell.

However, keep in mind that both books, though they come across as biographies, are not and should be treated as the fiction they are.

From what I understand,  Lovell taped his interviews and his book was suppose to have been taken from these interviews.  It was here on AP I learned that Lovell took great liberties with his information.  Kurth did not take such liberties.   Kurth's  book is not fiction but filled with facts after a great deal of research, added to this he knew AA.  Kurth's conclusion was:  AA was GD Anastasia.  Many of us did not believe AA was GD Anastasia.  As far as I was concern, all of us  have the right to their opinions.  Years later  after the discovery of the main grave and the smaller graves, plus DNA tests,  Wilson and Penny are writing their own book.

 I, too, am  looking forward to  their  book about AA  since  it was promised to us some ago  here on AP by Wilson.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on April 17, 2010, 03:41:28 PM
Quote
And I think by then FS believed her own con.

Yeah, I guess that after more than fifty years, FS could have come to believe she was Anastasia.  She might have so convinced her self that she could have passed a lie detector test.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on April 17, 2010, 04:18:58 PM
Greg and Penny's publisher demanded a total re-write from a different perspective.  All will be answered when the book is published late this year or early next.  I read the last "final" draft before the new rewrite and I can promise you that it all will be clear and makes total sense.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: AGRBear on April 18, 2010, 11:25:45 AM
...

One topic that's never been covered to my knowledge is how many of the stories of Ekaterinburg surviviors mentions the survivor going to Romania. I believe Eugenia Smith was a Romanian, she was not a servant at the Imperial Court.

One of the reasons AA, Smith and others talked about escaping Russia through Rumania was because that was a popular route. 

It was the same route most of my ancestors entered Russia as they moved one step ahead of Napoleon's army and the way they escaped a hundred years later as the Bolsheviks took control of Russia.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on April 21, 2010, 10:12:27 AM
Greg wrote me last night and gave me permission to tell you guys that their FS as AA book will be published next January.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on April 21, 2010, 01:46:55 PM
Thanks for the info.  I look forward to reading it when it comes out.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: koloagirl on April 21, 2010, 05:41:49 PM

Aloha from Kaua'i!

Great news!  Definitely a "must read" - I think the story of how this woman perpetuated this myth throughout her lifetime and beyond is just as fascinating as if she really had
been GD Anastasia!

Can't wait - January is a long way off darn it!

Janet R.
Title: Re: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Michael HR on April 22, 2010, 04:06:17 AM
Look forward to the book myself but will need a new bookshelf ay this rate!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: susana on May 12, 2010, 06:27:44 PM
I will read Greg King's book too but I refer you to my May 12 2010 post on the DNA Report forum. I finally believe that Anna was Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on May 15, 2010, 06:17:37 PM
Well, Susana, you're free to believe what you wish, but, as far as I'm concerned, Anna Anderson has been debunked.  She never was Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Kalafrana on May 16, 2010, 05:15:28 AM
Anna Anderson has been comprehensively debunked by DNA evidence from several different directions. Even without DNA, her claims were highly doubtful to begin with.

Unless you believe that several different DNA labs are colluding in a gigantic deception, there is no chance at all that Anna Anderson was Anastasia.

Ann
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on May 16, 2010, 10:36:01 AM
I have read the manuscript for Greg and Penny's Anna Andersen book. There is no room for doubt any longer that Franziska was NOT Anastasia.  They have the substantial evidence to show exactly how she literally became so trapped in her lie that she became the claimant.  The long held closed Darmstadt archives have the original investigation reports on the subject;  heck they even now have the RUSSIAN TUTOR's name who taught her Russian because she couldn't speak a word.  Trust me, after the book comes out, there will be the very last nail in this already long dead coffin.

Believe what you will Susana; but even Peter Kurth accepts the reality that Anna Andersen wasn't Anastasia. and he knew her personally.

Oh, and I removed that entire discussion from the DNA papers thread because it had no place there. That section is strictly for publication of and discussion about the specific scientific papers showing the DNA testing. NOT your personal opinions.  Also, you were most wrong about the testing labs. One of the testing labs doing the majority of the work was the United States Air Force Forensic Lab, which destroys your conspiracy theory about it being only English or Russian....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: AGRBear on May 16, 2010, 12:04:36 PM
I have read the manuscript for Greg and Penny's Anna Andersen book. There is no room for doubt any longer that Franziska was NOT Anastasia.  They have the substantial evidence to show exactly how she literally became so trapped in her lie that she became the claimant.  The long held closed Darmstadt archives have the original investigation reports on the subject;  heck they even now have the RUSSIAN TUTOR's name who taught her Russian because she couldn't speak a word.  Trust me, after the book comes out, there will be the very last nail in this already long dead coffin.

Believe what you will Susana; but even Peter Kurth accepts the reality that Anna Andersen wasn't Anastasia. and he knew her personally.

Oh, and I removed that entire discussion from the DNA papers thread because it had no place there. That section is strictly for publication of and discussion about the specific scientific papers showing the DNA testing. NOT your personal opinions.  Also, you were most wrong about the testing labs. One of the testing labs doing the majority of the work was the United States Air Force Forensic Lab, which destroys your conspiracy theory about it being only English or Russian....

So, according to what you just wrote,  AA couldn't speak Russian until after she had a tutor.    So, this means she was capable of
speaking Russian afterall.  Interesting.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on May 16, 2010, 06:42:13 PM
That was another thing that should have given AA away, she could barely speak English.  The real Anastasia was fluent in English.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on May 16, 2010, 09:25:25 PM
Just to clarify this a bit: Although we can't discuss the book yet except in very general terms since publication is not until January, I should say that Peter's stance on anything or what he may or may not believe is unrelated to our manuscript. I don't want to leave the impression that we have somehow changed Peter's mind on anything.

The only thing I will add here is that linguistic issue is not nearly as convincing or compelling as we have all believed, something that is clear after the ten years of translating and reading through the Darmstadt and Hamburg materials. I wish we could say more, and we will toward the end of the year close to publication, but for the moment I'd just say that it has been a real education to go through the materials we had and see firsthand the documentation of Franziska's progress.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on May 18, 2010, 11:52:55 AM
Looking forward to when your book comes out.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on May 20, 2010, 08:35:59 AM
I found this on YouTube.  It's the episode of the 1970's show, In Search Of, hosted by Leonard Nimoy, that dealt with Anna Anderson.  When it was made, she was still alive.  I think you all might find it amusing.  Remember, when this was made, DNA testing didn't exist yet, the Soviet Union was still there, and there was still some doubt as to whether AA was Anastasia or not.

Part One:  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6m36iklb9k


Part Two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUYNUPRg6iU&NR=1



Part Three:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrMXbv5MgGI&NR=1
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: pentetorri on May 22, 2010, 05:27:03 PM

I have read the manuscript for Greg and Penny's Anna Andersen book. There is no room for doubt any longer that Franziska was NOT Anastasia.  They have the substantial evidence to show exactly how she literally became so trapped in her lie that she became the claimant.  The long held closed Darmstadt archives have the original investigation reports on the subject;  heck they even now have the RUSSIAN TUTOR's name who taught her Russian because she couldn't speak a word.  Trust me, after the book comes out, there will be the very last nail in this already long dead coffin.

Believe what you will Susana; but even Peter Kurth accepts the reality that Anna Andersen wasn't Anastasia. and he knew her personally.

Oh, and I removed that entire discussion from the DNA papers thread because it had no place there. That section is strictly for publication of and discussion about the specific scientific papers showing the DNA testing. NOT your personal opinions.  Also, you were most wrong about the testing labs. One of the testing labs doing the majority of the work was the United States Air Force Forensic Lab, which destroys your conspiracy theory about it being only English or Russian....

Peter Kurth DOES NOT accept the "reality" that Anna Anderson wasn't Anastasia. For more information read his article on AA in his website:

http://www.peterkurth.com/anna-anastasia.htm



Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Foxglove on May 23, 2010, 10:48:31 PM
The long held closed Darmstadt archives have the original investigation reports on the subject;  heck they even now have the RUSSIAN TUTOR's name who taught her Russian because she couldn't speak a word.  Trust me, after the book comes out, there will be the very last nail in this already long dead coffin.

Now that is very interesting to read, because one of the claims by supporters was that Anna was speaking Russian even during her period as Fräulein Unbekannt. Wasn't it Nurse Erna Bucholz, who claimed that she and Anna conversed in Russian, and that the nurse believed that the patient spoke it like a native? However, if Anna needed a tutor to teach her a language she was supposedly fluent in, it either suggests that the nurses were lying, or Anna's language studies began even prior to her being committed to Dalldorf. Honestly, the more we read about Franziska/Anna, the more confused I become, but I am glad to hear that the new book will shed some much needed light on the matter. :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Jessamy on June 29, 2010, 12:48:07 PM
Did she look like Anastasia? - NO
Could she speak Russian? - NO
Did her DNA match that of Imperial Family? - NO
Do I believe she was Anastasia? - NO
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on June 29, 2010, 01:13:49 PM
I must remind certain users that we have a ZERO tolerance policy about discussion the "reality" of any claim without scientific evidence to disprove the conclusive DNA testing.  NOTHING else matters unless someone can prove that there is a scientific DNA match between any claimant and the Imperial Family OR a peer reviewed scientific paper which can demonstrate why the now universally accepted DNA testing is not accurate.

ALL mods are reminded to delete such posts without warning or discussion. Period.

This rule is longstanding and is to be respected.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Jessamy on June 29, 2010, 01:25:50 PM
All other evidence aside, I really just can't get past the pictures of Anna Anderson. To me she doesn't look a thing like Anastasia, and the thing that really defines it for me is the shape of the mouth. I understand that, if the stories are true, there was some sort of trauma to the lower half of the face, teeth missing, etc. That can constitute a reason for the shape of the face being different, but not the size of the lips. Anastasia didn't have very full lips. Anna Anderson has quite large, full lips. Just doesn't cut it for me. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on June 29, 2010, 01:34:03 PM
To be honest, having read the King and Wilson manuscript on this issue, the book should finally put a full stop to the lunacy that Anastasia survived and even moreso to the myth of Anna Andersen. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on June 30, 2010, 04:14:00 PM
I wouldn't bet on it.  After all there are people out there who are still convinced the Earth is flat, despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on June 30, 2010, 09:41:03 PM
While we cannot really discuss the contents of the book at this point, I do want to stick my neck out a bit and say this: I wouldn't be too hard on the people who still believe AA was Anastasia or who harbor doubts-not because myself or Penny have any doubt but that she was Franziska-but because I suspect that many people are exactly as we were: filled with unanswered questions, and wanting to see evidence reconciled to the DNA results. It took us ten years to actually go through all of the documentation, most of which has never been published, to understand that what we all believed to be true about the AA case-about the evidence in her favor-was often lacking. We, like everyone else, had read around both sides of the case, but the overwhelming bulk of evidence was always suggestive of AA having been Anastasia; only after going back to original source material did we find that much of this evidence in her favor does not hold up. It was very important for us to answer all of the questions we had-just as I suspect that those who still believe AA was Anastasia want to see their questions answered. Hopefully we can do that in this book. It is meant with no disrespect when I say that I believe that most of them are-as we were-wanting only these answers. Without them, the case remains an intriguing enigma of "How did AA know X, Y, or Z?" The problem, as we found, is that the record of AA's case-the evidence in AA's favor-was grossly distorted back in the 1920s and these errors have been unknowingly perpetuated because no real investigation has taken place since the 1994 DNA. My point is just this: Don't be too hard on those who still believe-a decade ago Penny and myself were amongst their ranks, wanting answers; we just happen to have been fortunate to have worked hard at finding them. I think we will find that, once people can see what we have uncovered and the answers we found, that many will come to the same conclusion as we did regarding the absolute certainty that AA was Franziska. It has less to do with ignoring the DNA than it does with reconciling the evidence, which I hope we have done.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 01, 2010, 12:32:23 AM
Can't wait to read your book, Greg.

BTW:  Just finished Fate Of The Romanovs.  Well done, both of you :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: toscany on July 01, 2010, 08:28:56 AM
While we cannot really discuss the contents of the book at this point, I do want to stick my neck out a bit and say this: I wouldn't be too hard on the people who still believe AA was Anastasia or who harbor doubts-not because myself or Penny have any doubt but that she was Franziska-but because I suspect that many people are exactly as we were: filled with unanswered questions, and wanting to see evidence reconciled to the DNA results. It took us ten years to actually go through all of the documentation, most of which has never been published, to understand that what we all believed to be true about the AA case-about the evidence in her favor-was often lacking. We, like everyone else, had read around both sides of the case, but the overwhelming bulk of evidence was always suggestive of AA having been Anastasia; only after going back to original source material did we find that much of this evidence in her favor does not hold up. It was very important for us to answer all of the questions we had-just as I suspect that those who still believe AA was Anastasia want to see their questions answered. Hopefully we can do that in this book. It is meant with no disrespect when I say that I believe that most of them are-as we were-wanting only these answers. Without them, the case remains an intriguing enigma of "How did AA know X, Y, or Z?" The problem, as we found, is that the record of AA's case-the evidence in AA's favor-was grossly distorted back in the 1920s and these errors have been unknowingly perpetuated because no real investigation has taken place since the 1994 DNA. My point is just this: Don't be too hard on those who still believe-a decade ago Penny and myself were amongst their ranks, wanting answers; we just happen to have been fortunate to have worked hard at finding them. I think we will find that, once people can see what we have uncovered and the answers we found, that many will come to the same conclusion as we did regarding the absolute certainty that AA was Franziska. It has less to do with ignoring the DNA than it does with reconciling the evidence, which I hope we have done.

Wait until you read our book, Greg...It will turn the history of the Imperial Family upside down...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Rasputin on July 01, 2010, 07:58:04 PM
While we cannot really discuss the contents of the book at this point, I do want to stick my neck out a bit and say this: I wouldn't be too hard on the people who still believe AA was Anastasia or who harbor doubts-not because myself or Penny have any doubt but that she was Franziska-but because I suspect that many people are exactly as we were: filled with unanswered questions, and wanting to see evidence reconciled to the DNA results. It took us ten years to actually go through all of the documentation, most of which has never been published, to understand that what we all believed to be true about the AA case-about the evidence in her favor-was often lacking. We, like everyone else, had read around both sides of the case, but the overwhelming bulk of evidence was always suggestive of AA having been Anastasia; only after going back to original source material did we find that much of this evidence in her favor does not hold up. It was very important for us to answer all of the questions we had-just as I suspect that those who still believe AA was Anastasia want to see their questions answered. Hopefully we can do that in this book. It is meant with no disrespect when I say that I believe that most of them are-as we were-wanting only these answers. Without them, the case remains an intriguing enigma of "How did AA know X, Y, or Z?" The problem, as we found, is that the record of AA's case-the evidence in AA's favor-was grossly distorted back in the 1920s and these errors have been unknowingly perpetuated because no real investigation has taken place since the 1994 DNA. My point is just this: Don't be too hard on those who still believe-a decade ago Penny and myself were amongst their ranks, wanting answers; we just happen to have been fortunate to have worked hard at finding them. I think we will find that, once people can see what we have uncovered and the answers we found, that many will come to the same conclusion as we did regarding the absolute certainty that AA was Franziska. It has less to do with ignoring the DNA than it does with reconciling the evidence, which I hope we have done.

Wait until you read our book, Greg...It will turn the history of the Imperial Family upside down...
Where can I buy the book?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Rasputin on July 01, 2010, 08:57:50 PM
I must remind certain users that we have a ZERO tolerance policy about discussion the "reality" of any claim without scientific evidence to disprove the conclusive DNA testing.  NOTHING else matters unless someone can prove that there is a scientific DNA match between any claimant and the Imperial Family OR a peer reviewed scientific paper which can demonstrate why the now universally accepted DNA testing is not accurate.

ALL mods are reminded to delete such posts without warning or discussion. Period.

This rule is longstanding and is to be respected.
I do not understand way we are talking about Anastasia. I tought that she was killed wit her family.
Or am I missing something ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 01, 2010, 09:24:43 PM
You aren't missing anything.  There are still those who believe that the bones found in the Pigs Meadow outside of Yekaterinburg were not those of the Romanovs.  Among that group is the Russian Orthodox Church inside Russia.

I know that the original bodies found were given an Imperial funeral, but there is still doubt amoung the churchmen.  That is why the second set of bones has still not been buried with their relatives.

There are still many books being written about Anastasia and Franziska Schanzkowska.

For some the Earth will always remain flat.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: toscany on July 02, 2010, 08:41:49 AM
Where can I buy the book?

Rasputin,

Our book is not yet at the publishers.  It is expected that the publishing will be at the end of the year.
The book will have many new things that have been researched thoroughly.  In the 1920's, it was a big mistake (and grossly distorted), believing the Sokolov report. We agree that those who still believe in the rescue of the Imperial Family, want their questions answered. Many new documents have been located all over Europe and the United States.

A powerful group in Europe and America have Documents and DNA  that proves AA was AN.  We are not ignoring DNA, we have the DNA, however, conclusive evidence, and thousands of documents never published (along with DNA samples).

5 books will come out. Sequels telling the whole untold story, that includes many interviews of American agents involved in this international rescue operation. We are not supporting any claimants or pretenders, we are simply making a deligent effort to rescue history.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 02, 2010, 09:16:16 AM
I must remind certain users that we have a ZERO tolerance policy about discussion the "reality" of any claim without scientific evidence to disprove the conclusive DNA testing.  NOTHING else matters unless someone can prove that there is a scientific DNA match between any claimant and the Imperial Family OR a peer reviewed scientific paper which can demonstrate why the now universally accepted DNA testing is not accurate.

ALL mods are reminded to delete such posts without warning or discussion. Period.

This rule is longstanding and is to be respected.

As a moderator, I must ask that this rule be respected.  FA is not being unfair as he has access to sources and knows those who were involved in the research.  He has also seen the bones in question.

I am not deleting the posts, yet, but my job a moderator is to do what FA asks of me.

When new books come out and new evidence is available, then we can talk about this.  Until then, please confine posting to facts and sources that are confirmable and nameable -  not just referred to "as a powerful group".  We are willing to wait.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 02, 2010, 10:18:08 AM
Where can I buy the book?

Rasputin,

Our book is not yet at the publishers.  It is expected that the publishing will be at the end of the year.
The book will have many new things that have been researched thoroughly.  In the 1920's, it was a big mistake (and grossly distorted), believing the Sokolov report. We agree that those who still believe in the rescue of the Imperial Family, want their questions answered. Many new documents have been located all over Europe and the United States.

A powerful group in Europe and America have Documents and DNA  that proves AA was AN.  We are not ignoring DNA, we have the DNA, however, conclusive evidence, and thousands of documents never published (along with DNA samples).

5 books will come out. Sequels telling the whole untold story, that includes many interviews of American agents involved in this international rescue operation. We are not supporting any claimants or pretenders, we are simply making a deligent effort to rescue history.

Allow me to be quite clear here. UNTIL you "put your money where your mouth is" by providing the genuine evidence and scientific factual data for the world to see and evaluate, there will be NO DISCUSSION of your allegations. Period. End of story.  You are like the tenth and typically just like you ANONYMOUS user to come in here spewing such tales. So far, every single predecessor with the same claims has never gotten around to providing a shred of evidence.  UNTIL you do, you have NO CREDIBILITY here. We deal with facts, not "mystery tales".   

The mods are expressly instructed by me to delete every single post that makes further unsupported allegations without warning. I myself have deleted such posts of yours and will continue to do so if I find them before the mods do.

Until you provide your name and genuine proof, your words are as worthless as the non existent paper you write them on to us.

I hope this is crystal clear. We have an obligation to keep things on a level and genuine playing field. ie: REALITY instead of FICTION.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 02, 2010, 11:43:13 AM
I have removed a post that violates my rules. Please don't "ask me" what other people may know. I don't give a rat's hind end what others "may" know or not know. PUBLISH FACTS. CITE SOURCES AND PROVIDE EVIDENCE. That can't be too difficult for someone who teaches 8th Grade Social Studies and Science, and fancies Cocker Spaniels.  Do you accept what people "might" know about a dog's bloodline or do you examine the AKC papers to make certain their statements are valid?

This isn't rocket science Mr. Binkow. PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Those are the rules.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Rasputin on July 02, 2010, 03:28:12 PM
I have removed a post that violates my rules. Please don't "ask me" what other people may know. I don't give a rat's hind end what others "may" know or not know. PUBLISH FACTS. CITE SOURCES AND PROVIDE EVIDENCE. That can't be too difficult for someone who teaches 8th Grade Social Studies and Science, and fancies Cocker Spaniels.  Do you accept what people "might" know about a dog's bloodline or do you examine the AKC papers to make certain their statements are valid?

This isn't rocket science Mr. Binkow. PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Those are the rules.

I though, we live in democracy ;) This is as communism >:(
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 02, 2010, 03:34:39 PM
HUH?

Communism is where the State owns everything and provides the citizens everything they need. There is no private property, there are no private employers or privately held businesses.

What does accusing me of being a Communist have to do with the subject.  The rule is quite clear on this issue: NOBODY can make assertions about the DNA or survival of any of the Imperial Family WITHOUT SPECIFIC EVIDENCE AND SCIENTIFIC PROOF. Period.

There is nothing dictatorial about it. This issue is not about speculation. It is about Facts. You have "Having Fun" section for all of your unsupported speculations.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 02, 2010, 06:27:54 PM
There are rules and guidelines for speech in this forum.  If anyone does not like our rules and guidelines, they are not forced to stay here. If you want to spew anything you wish without regulation, go stand on a street corner and start talking. Otherwise, part of the privilege of participating here is abiding by our rules and respecting our Mods, and me.

I hope this is quite clear. I'm tired of having to keep explaining this to people.

FA
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Rasputin on July 02, 2010, 06:33:35 PM
There are rules and guidelines for speech in this forum.  If anyone does not like our rules and guidelines, they are not forced to stay here. If you want to spew anything you wish without regulation, go stand on a street corner and start talking. Otherwise, part of the privilege of participating here is abiding by our rules and respecting our Mods, and me.

I hope this is quite clear. I'm tired of having to keep explaining this to people.

FA

It is fine with me.  I can not wait until the book will be publish ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 02, 2010, 06:41:18 PM
I've heard this same tale many times before from other people. I'm not holding my breath waiting for the "five volume" Opus Magnum which will miraculously disprove a century of history and the DNA results from five different labs, not to mention the eye witness accounts of the people there at the time. Not to mention the huge "conspiracy theory" covering this up for 90 years now, involving many Governments, including the US and dozens and dozens of people. 

I rely on Occam's Razor. (look it up if you don't already know it)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 03, 2010, 09:12:35 PM


A powerful group in Europe and America have Documents and DNA  that proves AA was AN.  We are not ignoring DNA, we have the DNA, however, conclusive evidence, and thousands of documents never published (along with DNA samples).

[/quote]

Well, good luck with that. I've spent sixteen years exploring every sort of possible objection to the AA DNA tests, asking questions, raising anything and everything that might in any way need to be explored, only to find NONE. All that's left is belief in a massive international conspiracy, which I gather is where you are headed. Believe me when I say that the AA DNA verdict not only cannot be challenged but, as we will reveal in our book, there were other tests done on her genetic samples-tests that have not been made public-that validated everything the scientists found at FSS and elsewhere. When it comes down to it, when you tear away all of the layers of asserted fact and erroneous allegations surrounding the case, the only REAL evidence that AA could have been Anastasia-and I know full well what I am saying here-the ONLY genuine, not up for arguments evidence, is that both were female, both had hallux valgus, both were of similar heights and with similar eye colors. I'm not kidding when I say that this is it-everything else-assertions about memories, languages, scars-all of it as we found has been grossly distorted as evidence in her favor.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 03, 2010, 11:53:56 PM
Quote
is belief in a massive international conspiracy

This idea always makes me laugh.  I mean who stands to gain from such a cover-up?  The only reason I could see is to get access to the supposed lost fortune of the Tsar, but there is no proof that said fortune even exists. 

These people need to wake up and face reality.  AA was not, and never was, Anastasia.  Case closed.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 03, 2010, 11:57:38 PM
This is the only message I will write in in this thread, since I've promised not to do it any more. But it's for stating a single little thing: I still believe that AA was AN. At least until I read Penny's and Greg's book. If the convinces me, I will change my mind. I always does if people convinces me. My problem is that I still see AN in AA's eyes. That's more powerful than my will to accept she was AA, or some other person. In a second, I said to myself: "Oh, yes...she must have been AA; too much contradiction in this case". But a second later, I can't help but still believe she was AN.

I shall not repeat why I believe AA was AN. I did hundred of times. I shall not repeat why I don't believe that DNA test could be believable. I did it hundred of times too. I shall not said again why I find odd that some people repeats she could speak Russian, French , English etc, and other people was ready to die assuring she could not. My opinions could be found here and all around the web. Every board that popped out about this case, would have me as a member.  ;) Now, I'm almost tired of saying the same things and hearing the same things as replies. More than tired, I'm bored. And don't worry FA, I will not go over your rules. If you and DNA test said AA was FS, OK, I'll not utter a word about AA bieng AN any more...In fact, I didn't for more than a year.And tomorrow, you'll not hear a word from me going in this sense. At least HERE. I don't want to be banned for a so stupid issue. If I wrote this down, is only for you knows for sure that I still believe this poor woman was AN. And I would do . They day I wouldn't believe in her claim any more you will know it the first. I don't feel any shame to  come and see: "Well, ladies and gentlemen, I was wrong". I did it before, and surely I will do it again if I get convinced. But I'm not convinced now. Not yet, at least.

You know I'm an honest person and that no personal interest, no political issue - at least, not a leftist political issue - lets me to vbelieve AA was AN. I'm not interested the little bit to hurt Tsar's memory. I like his family, and I like the idea they were recognized as saints by Orthodox Church. My only reason to keep believing AA's authenticity is that I DO REALLY believe her claim was right.

Please, forget me. I wish I wouldn't write this down, but these are my personal feelings. And I don't want to dirt the memoir of Grand Duchess Anastasia, a person who I respect. And I repeat again: I WISH she would die, along with her father and mother, along with all her siblings. It should be more romantic - the kind of stories I like - and much less painful for her. If she had been AA, her story would have been awful, terryfying. I WISH AA would not have been AN. But I'm convinced she was.

Sorry, FA...and now, you may delete my post if you wants. In any case, don't worry. I'll not bother anyone with those claims here. Wgat for? I'm convinced ,I don't need people said: "Oh, we think the same than you. " For I keep my opinions for me.

Many thanks for letting me speak.

Vanesa.(RealAnastasia)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 04, 2010, 12:43:38 AM
Like I said, some people cling to the idea that the Earth is flat, no matter how much evidence you show them.  Oh well, it's a free country.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dust_of_History on July 04, 2010, 05:29:35 AM
There will always be people who just don't want to accept the truth. I don't understand why there are still people who willingly embarrass themselves by saying that AA was AN. :-/ But as you said TimM, it's a free country....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Kalafrana on July 04, 2010, 06:17:11 AM
I have never believed in Anna Anderson, and what interests me is primarily why and how so many people were taken in for so long.

To those who believe the DNA results were faked, surely it would be a much bigger coup for dishonest scientists to 'prove' that Anna Anderson WAS Anastasia?

Ann
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 04, 2010, 07:04:39 AM
But again...I'd just add that a lot of people still have questions, and I hope that we are able to address. I think (I could be wrong, but this is my perception) that those who still believe that AA was Anastasia are troubled by trying to reconcile the DNA evidence with what we all-everyone-has been led to believe is a mountain of positive evidence on the other side favoring her claim. That's why I can't be too hard on people-because they are assuming in good faith that the AA story passed down to history is so convincing. The most important thing I hope our book will do is to show that almost nothing was convincing and most of what has been said to be evidence in her favor crumbles on close examination. This is the difference between saying, "The DNA says she was FS" and "The DNA says she was FS, now how do you explain everything else in her favor?" The point is, there just isn't much to constitute "evidence" when one gets back to the original documentation and sources. But I understand some people being skeptical because, no matter what they have read on the case, most haven't had the benefit of starting at the beginning of the tale and seeing how thin the evidence in her favor was. I was shocked to find that almost everything I had believed to be true about the case-and evidence in her favor-was actually not correct or plagued with problems. Those discoveries then gave us a sound basis for answering our own outstanding questions-and I hope those of everyone else-so that in the end people can know that AA was Franziska not merely because the DNA says so, but also because of new information and details that help fill in how she managed to seem so convincing.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 04, 2010, 10:31:36 AM
I read somewhere that Franziska became friends with Dr. Botkin's children, who could have fed her information about Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 04, 2010, 11:10:34 AM
Tim, that question, and similar ones are answered rather definatively in Greg and Penny's forthcoming book.  Their book really is "lets forget the DNA for a minute, and look at the REST of the story" and is meticulously researched and footnoted.  Seriously, so much of the AA story is based on things assumed to be facts, that simply were never true to begin with.  I have read the manuscript.  It will be an eye opener for even the most die hard sceptic of current evidence. The story of how FS pulled it off and slowly became AA is worthy of a movie in and of itself...

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on July 04, 2010, 11:34:34 AM
I read somewhere that Franziska became friends with Dr. Botkin's children, who could have fed her information about Anastasia.

Tim,

As you've mentioned Botkins and Anna Anderson, maybe it would be interesting, but I'm familiar (not very close) with one of Tatiana Botkin's closest descendants. She is her granddaughter. She told me once that even after DNA tests, which proved that Anna Anderson and Anastasia were different people, Tatiana Botkin still believed that she was right in her views. Even all the sober words and arguments of her young closest relatives were not perceived by her. Of course all these things are suitable for Tatiana's brother Gleb. Sad and beyond human understanding obsession;(.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 04, 2010, 05:28:06 PM
I'm getting more and more eager to read this book!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Rasputin on July 04, 2010, 08:17:39 PM
I'm getting more and more eager to read this book!
:)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 04, 2010, 09:20:24 PM
I read somewhere that Franziska became friends with Dr. Botkin's children, who could have fed her information about Anastasia.

Tim,

As you've mentioned Botkins and Anna Anderson, maybe it would be interesting, but I'm familiar (not very close) with one of Tatiana Botkin's closest descendants. She is her granddaughter. She told me once that even after DNA tests, which proved that Anna Anderson and Anastasia were different people, Tatiana Botkin still believed that she was right in her views. Even all the sober words and arguments of her young closest relatives were not perceived by her. Of course all these things are suitable for Tatiana's brother Gleb. Sad and beyond human understanding obsession;(.


Just a correction to note: Tatiana died in 1986-eight years before the DNA tests were done, so she certainly could not have had any opinion of them! She never waivered in her genuine belief that AA was Anastasia-and she was genuine in it, just as Gleb was genuine. Tatiana is one of the few really reliable voices in this whole saga, someone who never changed her story over time nor tried to claim anything other than her own belief and impressions.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 04, 2010, 11:57:14 PM
One more little thing to end with my interventions here. I think that Tim mixed up two persons: Tatiana Botkin-Melnik, who died in France in 1986  and who was Gleb's sister, and Marina Botkin-Schweitzer, who died some year ago. It was the last one who, knowing DNA results still believed that AA was AN. The two believed firmly that AA was AN, but only one knew DNA test repport.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 05, 2010, 03:18:05 AM
Uh, I didn't mention any names, Vanessa.  i just said Dr. Botkin's children.

However, it sounds like Tatiana Botkin actually believe AA, and wasn't just in it for the money, like others were.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Kalafrana on July 05, 2010, 03:27:31 AM
I've been thinking about all the people who were taken in, and I think an important point is that most of them didn't know the real Anastasia all that well. Sigismund of Prussia, for example, hadn't seen her since 1913 at the latest and before that only on fairly infrequent family holidays.

Just to draw a parallel, one of my cousins suddenly cut off all contact with the family about 15 years ago and no one has heard anything from him since, something which causes his sister a fair amount of distress (both parents are dead). Now, if someone suddenly turned up announcing that he was my cousin John Thornhill I certainly could not from my own knowledge say whether he was or wasn't. I only saw him occasionally and he is a lot older than I am.

Ann
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 05, 2010, 02:36:05 PM
Uh, I didn't mention any names, Vanessa.  i just said Dr. Botkin's children.

However, it sounds like Tatiana Botkin actually believe AA, and wasn't just in it for the money, like others were.

Madame Melnik was not wealthy nor was she interested in the non existant money related to "Anastasia". In the case of her niece, Mrs. Richard Schweitzer. she actually spent money to support the claimant and to identify her DNA. I do not consider it fair to ascribe financial motives to the Botkin family. Tatiana and Gleb suffered the loss of their father in the murders at Ekaterinburg and their lives were never the same. While they were mistaken about Schanzkowska, I can certainly understand why.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 11, 2010, 03:06:01 PM
Quote
Just to draw a parallel, one of my cousins suddenly cut off all contact with the family about 15 years ago and no one has heard anything from him since, something which causes his sister a fair amount of distress (both parents are dead). Now, if someone suddenly turned up announcing that he was my cousin John Thornhill I certainly could not from my own knowledge say whether he was or wasn't. I only saw him occasionally and he is a lot older than I am.


Sorry to hear that, Ann.  If the scenario you described did happen, I suppose you and your family could ask him questions only your cousin would know the answer to.  That would probably determine his identity.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Kalafrana on July 12, 2010, 03:44:40 AM

'Sorry to hear that, Ann.  If the scenario you described did happen, I suppose you and your family could ask him questions only your cousin would know the answer to.  That would probably determine his identity.'

Exactly. The point I am making is that just because some one is a fairly close relation by blood (first cousin, uncle, aunt etc) it does not of itself mean they know the missing person that well.

Ann
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 13, 2010, 10:07:11 AM
There is quite a long discussion in the forum with Richard Schweitzer who married Marina Botkin.  Marina (if I remember correctly) being Gleb's daughter.  Mr. Schweitzer was totally convinced that Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nicholaevna and so was his wife.

But in the end Gleb Botkin had become a bit fuzzy and his life style was almost as unusual as that of AA.  No one knows exactly why he was so adamant about AA being AN, but there was talk of shared memories of "funny animals" that Gleb used to draw and that AA supposidly remembered.

We haven't heard from Mr. Schweitzer in a long time, but I am sure that anyone who wants to find the threads with that discussion can use the search engine in the forum and find them.

I know that I took part in the discussions at the time, and if I remember, so did FA.

Everyone who was actually there during AA's life has now passed away just as she herself has.  The fewer people who are still alive with actual memories and not just "hear say" the harder it will be to verify their motives.

That leaves hard evidence only.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 13, 2010, 10:25:24 AM
Here is the link to his thread with his side of the story.
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=10364.msg292900#msg292900

Please note that he was most clear that he "had important information" which "was soon going to be made public" which "would show why the DNA testing was incorrect"..."the tissue was switched"...etc etc. It is now almost three full years and none of the promised "information" has seen the light of day. Sound familiar??



Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 13, 2010, 12:31:22 PM
Quote
It is now almost three full years and none of the promised "information" has seen the light of day.

That's because it doesn't exist.  This person sounds like another charter member of the Flat Earth Society. Anastasia's ghost could materialize in front of one of these people and personally say that she died that night at Ipatiev House, and they probably still wouldn't believe it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 13, 2010, 03:55:59 PM
Because Mr. Schweitzer was married to Marina Botkin, he had a vested interest in AA being AN.  If she were, it would exonerate his wife and her father and make their beliefs true.

I had not realized that it has been three years since that discussion.  

Has Mr. Schweitzer passed away?  

It seems to me that he had a copy of AA's will that he was unwilling to make public.  Now all wills are public information and public domain and should be able to be found in the place where they were probated, but he thought that he should keep his copy (if he actually had one) secret.
I know because I asked him to post a portion of it here on the forum and he refused.  Which, of course, was his right.

I am looking forward to Greg's book because I believe that he has done the best and most thorough research that could be done.  If the information is out there, then he would be the one to find it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 13, 2010, 03:58:52 PM
I am also wondering if this new person who claims to have all of this "secret information" is in any way connected to Mr. Schweitzer?

Both, as FA pointed out, have posted similar comments about evidence and upcoming books and secret and powerful groups.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 13, 2010, 04:08:25 PM
That's just it, they makes these claims about the DNA tests being rigged and conspiracies that would make Fox Mulder roll his eyes, but when asked to produce any documented evidence, they fall silent.  Why?  If they want to make their case, why not provide proof to back it up.  This really doesn't help their credibility in my eyes.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 13, 2010, 09:15:37 PM
Because Mr. Schweitzer was married to Marina Botkin, he had a vested interest in AA being AN.  If she were, it would exonerate his wife and her father and make their beliefs true.

I had not realized that it has been three years since that discussion.  

Has Mr. Schweitzer passed away?  

It seems to me that he had a copy of AA's will that he was unwilling to make public.  Now all wills are public information and public domain and should be able to be found in the place where they were probated, but he thought that he should keep his copy (if he actually had one) secret.
I know because I asked him to post a portion of it here on the forum and he refused.  Which, of course, was his right.

I am looking forward to Greg's book because I believe that he has done the best and most thorough research that could be done.  If the information is out there, then he would be the one to find it.

Just a small but vital point: it's actually Greg's and Penny's book! The title which we got from the publisher today (their selection) is "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson, and the World's Greatest Royal Mystery," to be published January 2011.

We both knew Dick Schweitzer very well and he has never been anything but a gentleman with us
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Kalafrana on July 14, 2010, 03:36:11 AM
Anna Anderson's supporters should also realise that it's not just the DNA which is against them. The 'evidence' produced over the years is highly equivocal at best, quite apart from the sheer improbability of the 'escape' story from start to finish (I have gone through that on another thread).

I am looking forward to the book when it comes out.

Ann
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 15, 2010, 11:17:45 AM
I didn't mean to leave Penny off.  I know that she works very hard on these books as well.  Greg and Penny make a great writing team!

January 2011 seems a long way off, but I can wait if not at all patiently.    :-)

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Forum Admin on July 15, 2010, 11:42:41 AM
Having read the first manuscript, I can only say it will more than reward your patience for the wait!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 15, 2010, 08:28:23 PM
Having read the first manuscript, I can only say it will more than reward your patience for the wait!

Thanks Rob!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 15, 2010, 11:46:37 PM
At the risk of being repetitive, the book is very well written and solidly researched. I can't wait for it to come out!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 16, 2010, 06:46:30 AM
And thank you, too, Lisa! I hope it's worth everyone's wait
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Vecchiolarry on July 16, 2010, 08:05:02 AM
Hi,

Well, not to change the suject, but I will for this one post - -

While you wait for Greg's & Penny's book to come out in 6 months, you can buy and read 3 other books by Greg King:

1)  Twilight of Splendour - 337 pages all about Queen Victoria's court & reign - ISBN 9780470044391
2)  Court of the Last Tsar - 576 pages of Nicholas II and the Romanov court - ISBN 9780471727637
3)  A Season of Splendour - 508 pages about New York society and Mrs. Astor and her 400 - ISBN 9780470185698

This last book features Mrs. Mamie Fish, a real hoot!!!  Loved her...


Larry
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on July 16, 2010, 07:46:40 PM

Just a small but vital point: it's actually Greg's and Penny's book! The title which we got from the publisher today (their selection) is "Resurrection of the Romanovs: Anastasia, Anna Anderson, and the World's Greatest Royal Mystery," to be published January 2011.

We both knew Dick Schweitzer very well and he has never been anything but a gentleman with us
[/quote]

Greg - delighted to see you posting here again and to hear that Yours and Penny's book is heading in our direction - I look forward to it.  Hope all is well.  Would enjoy another chat at some point.  Be well and say hi to Penny for me.

dca
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 16, 2010, 08:00:56 PM
Hi,

This last book features Mrs. Mamie Fish, a real hoot!!!  Loved her...


Larry

Thanks-I love Mamie too-I would have loved to write just about her and Harry Lehr.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 16, 2010, 08:03:08 PM
And Hi and thanks Dominic...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 17, 2010, 08:16:14 AM
Looking back over this thread, I have started to believe that there are people who will believe that AA was AN and will not stop believing until AN herself appears before them and tells them that she died on July 17-18 1918.

It IS just like the "Flat Earth Society".  Even when shown pictures of the Earth from the moon or from a satellite that prove the Earth is round, they just say that the pictures are false.

Some will never believe.  I think they just don't want to believe.  The idea that everyone could be murdered in that basement 92 years ago today is so repugnant to them that a survivor is necessary.  Even though Anna Anderson was not in any way the picture of a well brought up Grand Duchess (she was slovenly and rude and not at all well educated) some just need to hang on to her.  They just will never let her go.  I am sure that they have all types of reasons for their stubborn refusal to believe the facts.

For these people, even time travel and being an eye witness would not change their minds.  To me these people are the romantics who are looking for that happy ending of the Anastasia movies.  They and their fellow believers will still be discussing this subject 100 or more years from now and their opinion will not have changed.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 17, 2010, 11:35:07 AM
Looks like we're on the same page here, Alixz.  These people want a happy ending, like a Disney movie where the brave prince shows up in the nick of time to save the day.  Sadly, that didn't happen on July 17, 1918.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 17, 2010, 12:18:29 PM
Looking back over this thread, I have started to believe that there are people who will believe that AA was AN and will not stop believing until AN herself appears before them and tells them that she died on July 17-18 1918.

It IS just like the "Flat Earth Society".  Even when shown pictures of the Earth from the moon or from a satellite that prove the Earth is round, they just say that the pictures are false.

Some will never believe.  I think they just don't want to believe.  The idea that everyone could be murdered in that basement 92 years ago today is so repugnant to them that a survivor is necessary.  Even though Anna Anderson was not in any way the picture of a well brought up Grand Duchess (she was slovenly and rude and not at all well educated) some just need to hang on to her.  They just will never let her go.  I am sure that they have all types of reasons for their stubborn refusal to believe the facts.

For these people, even time travel and being an eye witness would not change their minds.  To me these people are the romantics who are looking for that happy ending of the Anastasia movies.  They and their fellow believers will still be discussing this subject 100 or more years from now and their opinion will not have changed.

For me, her education and personal habits were the least of it. Grand Duchess Xenia's grandson Andrei told me, "do they really believe we would have turned our back on (his cousin Anastasia) her because she had been raped by a soldier? My grandmother missed her brother and his family every day, for the rest of her life. We would have been overjoyed to have him or any of his children be able to rejoin the family!" All of this was  told to me before the DNA testing was done. FS brought horrible suffering to Nicholas II's surviving relatives. To me this was the worst she did.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 17, 2010, 02:25:10 PM
FS brought horrible suffering to Nicholas II's surviving relatives. To me this was the worst she did.

I agree Lisa! As if the surviving romanovs didn't have enough to deal with & then SHE turns up!!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Kalafrana on July 18, 2010, 05:44:25 AM
'Grand Duchess Xenia's grandson Andrei told me, "do they really believe we would have turned our back on (his cousin Anastasia) her because she had been raped by a soldier? My grandmother missed her brother and his family every day, for the rest of her life. We would have been overjoyed to have him or any of his children be able to rejoin the family!"'


Exactly. For entirely proper reasons the surviving Romanovs were cautious about potential impostors, but Olga, Xenia and co would have been delighted beyond words had a real survivor turned up, whatever had happened in between.

Ann
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 18, 2010, 09:29:32 AM
I didn't think that the Romanovs would have "turned their backs on" Anastasia (had she survived) because of her bad manners or because she had been raped.

What I meant is that, to me, her lack of "Imperial" training was a red flag.  To me (IMHO) 50 years later, and I lived during the time of the Berlin Trials. 

Magazine coverage of the trials is what got me interested in the Imperial family to begin with.  It got me reading about them and researching them.  It is surprising how many of the expatriates were still alive at the time of the trials and they lived well into the 1960s.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: AGRBear on July 18, 2010, 02:03:33 PM
Although I have never believed AA was Grand Duchess Anastasia,  I have my doubts as to AA being FS.  Because of this,  I've been from time to time been thrown into the group known as "flatlanders"  , "romantics" , etc. etc.... .  When Penny Wilson told us that they were starting to gather material for their new book,  I voiced that I'd remain on the fence until their book produced the evidence I needed to crawl off the fence.  Meanwhile,  through the years,  I have asked all kinds of questions.  Some of my  questions have stretched FA to the border of his limits  but he's allowed 99.9% to be discussed for which I say "thank you".  Added to my questions,   I've presented all kinds of sources, and,  continue to search for the truth about the murder,  burial and excavation of the Russian Royal Family.  

I'd, also, like to  thank Penny Wilson and Greg King for their generous help in finding many of the answers through the years.  Bear is looking forward to reading Greg and Penny's new book.  I wish them the best!

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Holly on July 20, 2010, 12:36:29 PM
Can't wait for the new book, Greg and Penny! It's about time someone did it and I'm very glad it was you. Best wishes.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dust_of_History on July 20, 2010, 02:49:49 PM
"The Fate of the Romanovs" was one of the first books I read about the IF. It was great, I had never read before so many details about the family and their assassination. That's why I'm really looking forward to the new book. :-)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 20, 2010, 03:03:26 PM
Quote
The Fate of the Romanovs" was one of the first books I read about the IF. It was great

I second that :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 20, 2010, 11:08:38 PM
Thanks guys. Hopefully the AA book is worth the wait!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 21, 2010, 12:33:03 AM
I'm sure it will be :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: rgt9w on July 21, 2010, 07:41:38 PM
Dear Greg:

After all of the research you have done on this topic, I would like to ask what your thoughts are regarding the impact of the "Anastasia" myth on Russian History? Do you think there would be as much interest in the Romanovs by westerners had the Anna Anderson case not been followed so closely by the press over so many years? Certainly, the case caused a great emotional hardship on members of the Romanov family, but do you think in hindsight it has helped perpetuate their memory?

Kind Regards,

Roy
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 21, 2010, 09:21:40 PM
This is complex and probably not a popular opinion. But quite simply, without AA, the story of Nicholas and Alexandra would never have become such a cultural phenomenon-her claim kept Anastasia (figuratively) alive and the story in the public mind. We do say something that I think is very near the truth in the book about this-that it is an irony that a farm girl from an obscure West Prussian village transformed the least important of Nicholas and Alexandra's children into the most famous Russian Grand Duchess in history. You can think what you want of AA, but there is no denying that her claim played an enormous part in popularizing Nicholas and Alexandra.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 21, 2010, 10:13:06 PM
Re Reply # 441:  Agree COMPLETELY, Greg!  I have said here much earlier, IMO, if it were not for AA, Anastasia N. would (as she indeed was) have remained a VERY minor and relatively unimportant personage/footnote in the depth and breadth of Russian history, to be chiefly remembered for her inclusion in the tragic deaths of the Imperial Family. Without the grotesque input of the AA saga, why else would cause the world to take notice of the name "Anastasia N.", who in the reality of her albeit short life, was spectacular in NO sense, except for an accident of birth, and would have probably been placed at an appropriate age to marry some minor princeling?  Did not one of the hospital workers/friend initially accuse AA of being Tatiana N. ?  If this is true, (and if AA had acknowledged it), IMO, it could well have gone in the direction of THAT name. Physical disimiliarities would have been ignored, as some "awe-struck" people will believe in ANYTHING.  
                         I do look forward to your and Penny's forthcoming book.    Regards, AP.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 21, 2010, 11:20:51 PM
Re Reply # 441:  Agree COMPLETELY, Greg!  I have said here much earlier, IMO, if it were not for AA, Anastasia N. would (as she indeed was) have remained a VERY minor and relatively unimportant personage/footnote in the depth and breadth of Russian history, to be chiefly remembered for her inclusion in the tragic deaths of the Imperial Family. Without the grotesque input of the AA saga, why else would cause the world to take notice of the name "Anastasia N.", who in the reality of her albeit short life, was spectacular in NO sense, except for an accident of birth, and would have probably been placed at an appropriate age to marry some minor princeling?  Did not one of the hospital workers/friend initially accuse AA of being Tatiana N. ?  If this is true, (and if AA had acknowledged it), IMO, it could well have gone in the direction of THAT name. Physical disimiliarities would have been ignored, as some "awe-struck" people will believe in ANYTHING.  
                         I do look forward to your and Penny's forthcoming book.    Regards, AP.

It was a fellow patient at the Dalldorf Asylum, Clara Maria Peuthert, who thought AA was Tatiana-this is the story she told on leaving the institution. A lot of people have assumed that she and AA colluded in this, discussed it, and that AA later switched her claimed identity. But as we can now document this is not correct-AA only ever claimed to be Anastasia. She actually looked more like Tatiana Nikolaievna in many ways than she would a surviving Anastasia, which probably impelled a few early supporters to latch on to her. There is an interesting timeline we discuss in relation to those people who first "recognized" her versus her first claim, away from Dalldorf, to be Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 21, 2010, 11:33:40 PM
Fascinating, Greg!  More than ever I think that the new book will provide correction/clarity/shed light on many areas, on which focus needs to be done, and as needed, shatter long-held (and yes, for some people, loved) myths on both sides.  Again, I look forward to the release.

                                                                                                         Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: rgt9w on July 22, 2010, 04:23:53 AM
Greg,

Thank you for answering my question and providing your insight. Living in VA, my first encounter with the Romanovs as a child was viewing the Faberge Collection at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts. I remember being told about the royal family being murdered and a reference to the fact that some believed one of the Grand Duchesses may have survived and actually lived in our state. My interest was certainly piqued in the late 80's when the film with Amy Irving came out.  I was preparing to attend college at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville where Anna Anderson had lived, so the story provided some local interest for me. AA had passed away prior to my living in Charlottesville. However, her "story" made me want to learn more about the Romanovs and I took russian history courses at UVA and developed a love of russian history.  I was living in Charlottesville during the initial DNA testing and the town was abuzz with news articles asking "Was she" or "Wasn't she" the grand duchess. As we now know from the DNA testing she was not, but I have to acknowledge that the myth of a surviving member of the family first ignited my interest in Russian History. I know some may find it ridiculous, but at that time in high schools, all we were taught about russian society was communism was bad. I didn't even know there was a russian royal famiily unitl I heard the story about Anastasia.

Thanks again,

Roy
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 22, 2010, 06:36:56 AM
Yes, we know the swirl of Charlottesville media at the time! Another reason why-no matter what one might personally feel about AA-her role in the saga of Nicholas and Alexandra cannot be relegated to a mere historical footnote. She became a cultural phenomenon in her own right, a living legend, which-despite the basis on which she did so-makes her a rather extraordinary figure in her own right. To me, knowing that she was Franziska, she's actually far more interesting than had she been an Anastasia whose greatest claim to fame would have been accidental survival of a massacre.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 22, 2010, 06:55:31 AM
That is an interesting question. Many people are fascinated by royalty and particularly those that have met a barbaric end. Take Marie Antoinette, Mary Queen of Scots, Lady Jane Grey, Anne Boleyn etc I think they are just as famous, without anyone claiming to be them!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 22, 2010, 07:47:15 AM
That is an interesting question. Many people are fascinated by royalty and particularly those that have met a barbaric end. Take Marie Antoinette, Mary Queen of Scots, Lady Jane Grey, Anne Boleyn etc I think they are just as famous, without anyone claiming to be them!

Ah, but...everyone you named was an important personage in her own right. Not so Anastasia. I don't know who might present an equivalent argument here-probably neither Xenia nor Olga Alexandrovna, as they obtain some measure of interest in relation to their brother (but even so, look at how well known they are today amongst the general public); not Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna, given her marriage to Affie and being mother to Missy-I think you would have to go quite far back to seek out a junior daughter of a reigning emperor who would compare to the position Anastasia occupied in her life. I'm not saying she would be anonymous-certainly she would be known, but if not for AA probably only for her death.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 22, 2010, 08:43:02 AM
The same way the her sisters are know mostly for their deaths.  Interest in the four sisters seems to have come about from the supposed survival of one of them.

All four of them were destined to become only the consorts of major or minor men.  Olga Nikolaevna might one day have Queen of Roumania had she liked Prince Carol more and with a flamboyant mother in law like Queen Marie - she probably would have not made very much of a splash in history.

Even Olga Alexandrovna would not have been so interesting if she was not the sister of Nicholas and therefore a source of information on her brother and his family.

Other than history buffs, how many people remember the sisters and brothers of half of the British sovereigns or their consorts?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 22, 2010, 11:05:08 AM
The story of AA was how I first heard about Anastasia.  It was that In Search Of episode that a posted links to here.  Of course, at that time, the late 70's, there was really no way to prove or disprover her claim.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 23, 2010, 03:56:57 PM
I saw a documentary about her in Brazil's History/Discovery Chanel. But I already knew about the Romanovs, and it was already proved she wasn't Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 26, 2010, 12:53:50 PM
IMO, due to the tragic way the last Russian imperial family died, there would naturally be a lot of interest in them. Especailly since it involved young girls and a boy who were completely innocent. The events surrounding their deaths, including the Rasputin factor, etc. is something that people are fascinated by, even those who are not that interested in royalty per say. Just as Marie Antoinette ended up being a lot more "famous" because of the way she died, than if she just died natural death, it is the same with the Romanovs...

Having said that, I think that AA definitely added to it... As did other claimants... IMO, if AA didn't become the most famous one of these claimants, it would have been someone else, possibly that mid-western "Anastasia" (the name escapes me right now), the one who wrote her "memoirs". She was a pretty viable claimant too... who actually looked a lot more like the real Anastasia than AA ever did...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 26, 2010, 03:08:55 PM
There was some guy who lived out in Vancouver, B.C., can't remember his name, who claimed he was Alexei.  He died in the late 70's.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dust_of_History on July 26, 2010, 03:34:00 PM
Do you mean Heino Tammet? I think there was even a website dedicated to him but I don't know if the site is still online.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 26, 2010, 03:35:19 PM
Yeah, him.  I remember reading about him.  Too bad they never put him and Anna Anderson in the same room.  It would have been most interesting.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dust_of_History on July 26, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
That would have been indeed a very interesting scene. ;-) I think AA once met a man called Golinievsky who also claimed to be Alexei. But unfortunately I can't remember the details.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 26, 2010, 04:20:31 PM
Re Reply # 456:  Hello, "Dust_of_History"!  It was not a meeting with AA, that Michael Goleniewski had.  It was with another "Anastasia," Eugenia Smith, who "recognized" him as her "brother," in the presence of several others, including members of the American Speller publishing family, in the Spellers' offices. This was on December 31, 1963, I believe. The meeting was tape-recorded, and I have read a portion of that transcript (in one of Guy Richard's somewhat "strange" books re the Romanov situation, "The Hunt for the Tsar"). It is said that the later typed transcript was duly "endorsed page by page, with Goleniewski's signature, ' Alexei Nicholaevich.' "  (By the way, he initially presented himself to his "sister," as a "Mr. Borg.") After two more meetings, as could well have been predicted, the mutual recognition very quickly dissolved.  Somewhat later, in her existence as "Anastasia," Smith was asked to take a blood test for comparative/DNA reasons and she refused.  She even published her "autobiography" of which I have a copy (If you need details, let me know).  Both Smith and Goleniewski are long dead now. To my knowledge, G. never wrote/published any book-length version of his "Imperial past." Obviously, neither one was believable, but each seemed to have the usual small following.  IMO, a far, far MORE interesting personage in the "Goleniewski affair," is/was (now deceased) a certain Kyril (de) Shishmarev, who was said to be a play-mate of the Heir in Tsarskoe Selo, where his well-connected family also had a house.  He seems, upon closer investigation, to actually be creditable! He urbanely (not slavishly) "supported" G., but later was rebuffed by Goleniewski.    Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 26, 2010, 04:53:09 PM
Addendum to my above post, #457, as dictated by time constraints:  The subject of Kyril (de) Sishmarev has been earlier mentioned by myself and others this year (Feb., 2010) on this Forum, under "Claimant of Tsarevich Alexei - Michael Goleniewski."  Apologies, if this is somewhat O/T.    AP
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dust_of_History on July 26, 2010, 05:53:01 PM
Hello, alexandr pavlovich,
yes, you are right it was Eugenia Smith. ;-) It's been a while since I read about the meeting. Wow, I didn't know that the meeting was tape-recorded. I wonder if those recordings still exist. I also would like to know why Mr. Golinievsky presented himself as “Mr Borg”.
I know little about Mrs. Smith only that a writing sample was compared with Anastasia's writing and that they were completely different. Do you know what arguments Mrs. Smith used to make everyone believe that she was Anastasia?
Unfortunately I never heard of a man called Shishmarev. As far as I know, there is no book or website that  mentions his name. Why do you think he is/was credible? Did he have a proof for his claims?
A big “thank you” for all the information about the meeting. All the books that I read in which the meeting is mentioned do not go into detail.  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 26, 2010, 07:01:44 PM
Re Reply #459:  Greetings!  As to your questions:  I should think that the Speller family still has the recordings, as they were her publishers. (Please note, however, the transcript does NOT appear in her autobiography, since it ends in 1918.) The Spellers seemingly believed in the whole scenario, thus I doubt that they would easily dispose of "historical" recordings.  To my knowledge, no COMMERCIAL (versus "private") recording releases were done.  Guy Richards says " A transcript of that tape has been forwarded to the (US) Justice Department."  He further says, "It should be explained that, at the time of the confrontation, no one outside of the US intelligence services had ever heard of a 'Goleniewski'.  The stories on him were not to be released until the following March.  He didn't use the name 'Goleniewski' when he first phoned the Spellers in December (of 1963 - AP). He called himself 'Mr. Borg'."  There is no other explanation, to my knowledge, of how he selected the name.  
                        You are correct about Eugenia Smith's (Russian) writing: not only were some of the script letters malformed, but they actually gave different meanings in translation. She apparently was motivated by "rejecting" false notions about "her" family,etc. "Righting the past wrongs," etc.  In other words, the "usual". I don't remember the "money/fortune" angle being played up prominently, but it has been a number of years since I read the book.
                         As for (de) Shishmarev (original family name was just "Shishmarev"), IMO much of his past memories seem to have been valid, in terms of ancestry, military service, childhood, education, etc.  I understand that there is an Alaskan village named "Shishmarev" "(near Bering Strait)  in honor of a family forebearer, Gleb Semenovich Shishmarev. He was a navigator of the Kotzebue Scientific Expedition of 1815-18."  Kyril (de) Shishmarev's mother was Louise Alfredovna, "a wholly American product who had been born and schooled in France."  She was the daughter of an American diplomat in Paris, John Alfred Chandor.  She met her Shishmarev husband on a visit to Saint Petersburg.  They married  "in the private chapel of the Grand Duchess Xenia" in 1906. Kyril was their first child, with one of his godmothers being the Grand Duchess Serge ("Elizabeth/"Ella").  All this is fron Guy Richards' chapter on (de)Shishmarev in the "Hunt for the Tsar."  IMO, I am certain that these items are basic enough to establish (de) Shishmarev's bona fides and could with time and effort, be traced down. Many of his subsequent memories, education, jobs, etc. appear plausible and documentable.  In the dim recesses of my mind, I seemingly remember that he served as the "Captain-General," "Grand Master," "Head", or whatever title, of a prestigeous group of "Knights" (somewhat along the order of Matla) just several years before his death (I think that he died in 1975).  There seems to be a ring of truth about him, and he apparently never aspired to capitalize on his family's/his childhood association with the Russian Imperial Family.  Some information I have seen sometime ago via "Google," and I do not recall anything distracting/disconcerting.   Again, apologies, if I am O/T for this thread.       Best regards,   AP.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Alixz on July 26, 2010, 08:26:34 PM
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=14573.0

This is the thread for Goleniewski.  It is right here in the Myths and legends sub forum page one.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 26, 2010, 08:33:00 PM
Many thanks!   AP.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 27, 2010, 12:59:51 PM
Yeah, him.  I remember reading about him.  Too bad they never put him and Anna Anderson in the same room.  It would have been most interesting.

Eugenia Smith met an Alexei claimant (Golinevski) and they pretended to recognize each other, but later they had a row and denounced each other, LOL.  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on July 27, 2010, 05:19:47 PM
Related to the message above about the Alexi pretender - See John Kendrick's site (John is a poster here as well - While I don't share his belief's I can say he is a respectful, thoughtful and highly knowledgeable individual):

http://www.npsnet.com/tsarevich/

Also there is a page in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Tammet-Romanov

Enjoy
dca
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dust_of_History on July 27, 2010, 06:06:34 PM
@Dominic_Albanese:
Yes, that was the website I was referring to. I'm surprised that it's still online. I hope Mr Kendrick has changed his mind. He should take this site down.

@alexandr pavlovich:
Thanks for answering my questions. ;-)

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 28, 2010, 05:35:14 PM
Hammet had himself a real champion in the form of Mr John Kendrick, who even published an article in The American Journal of Hematology (even though he has no medical background) arguing that Alexei didn't really have hemophilia (since Hammett didn't). Margarita Nelipa and I wrote an article about this, if anyone is interested you can read it right here: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/pages/The-Murder-of-Grigorii-Rasputin-by-Margarita-Nelipa/140025216024146?v=app_2347471856
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 28, 2010, 05:36:11 PM
I think you need to copy and paste that link instead of clicking into it, for some reason...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 28, 2010, 11:43:38 PM
Sorry for having to say something here, since I've promised I would not...But I popped up only to point out that John Kendrick is not the champion of any "Hammet". The name of this claimant is "Heino TAMMET". If you searchs in Google the name "Hammet", you'll not find anything about this claimant.

And, no. John Kendrick had not changed his mind. Be sure of it.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Dust_of_History on July 29, 2010, 04:12:34 AM
Superflous comment. Everybody knows that it is "Tammet". I'm sure it is just a typo. I don't care whether Mr Kendrick changed his mind or not. The website is rubbish.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Belochka on July 29, 2010, 05:35:34 AM

And, no. John Kendrick had not changed his mind. Be sure of it.

RealAnastasia.

Why are you so sure RA?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Belochka on July 29, 2010, 05:38:28 AM
...I hope Mr Kendrick has changed his mind. He should take this site down.

I agree.  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Foxglove on July 29, 2010, 07:47:35 PM
One final question for Greg: will the book have any photographs of Anna Anderson before she became "Anastasia"? We have that one grainy, disputed photograph of Franziska, but I was always curious as to whether there were any more images out there, locked away somewhere after the conclusion of the trial.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: richard_1990 on July 29, 2010, 10:34:51 PM
Is this the site: http://www.npsnet.com/tsarevich/ ?

Why do these people try and make it appear as though the Russian government is hiding something? It seems be the common thread now days with respect to the so called survivors.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on July 29, 2010, 11:11:10 PM
One final question for Greg: will the book have any photographs of Anna Anderson before she became "Anastasia"? We have that one grainy, disputed photograph of Franziska, but I was always curious as to whether there were any more images out there, locked away somewhere after the conclusion of the trial.

For a long time, based on a statement made by Luise Wingender, we believed we had two pre-1920 photographs of AA-both in her FS Berlin period. Extensive checking, though, has made this unlikely-and so unfortunately we are left only with the one photograph of her pre-1920 that is well known.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 29, 2010, 11:49:14 PM

And, no. John Kendrick had not changed his mind. Be sure of it.

RealAnastasia.

Why are you so sure RA?

He belongs to a messageboard in which people discuss claimants and he stated it. I think that Greg knows it too.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on July 30, 2010, 11:35:35 AM
Quote
For a long time, based on a statement made by Luise Wingender, we believed we had two pre-1920 photographs of AA-both in her FS Berlin period. Extensive checking, though, has made this unlikely-and so unfortunately we are left only with the one photograph of her pre-1920 that is well known.

Well, that photo is convincing to me that FS and AA were one and the same person. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 30, 2010, 12:03:38 PM
But I popped up only to point out that John Kendrick is not the champion of any "Hammet". The name of this claimant is "Heino TAMMET".

Yes, that was a typo.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on August 17, 2010, 03:55:52 PM
Well, I went to Chapter's today and pre-ordered Greg and Penny's upcoming book :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Greg_King on August 17, 2010, 09:23:40 PM
Thanks...sorry about the wait!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on August 17, 2010, 11:08:44 PM
It will be well worth it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on December 02, 2010, 06:32:27 PM
She was one of many.

http://www.newsweek.com/photo/2010/11/24/imposters.html?gt1=43002

Thanks for continuing to provide this informative site with such great material and ongoing discussions!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: koloagirl on December 02, 2010, 07:33:36 PM

Aloha all!

I also pre-ordered my copy of Greg and Penny's book from Amazon.com last week - can't wait to get it!!

I have to admit to being a bit "picky" about which hard-back Romanov books I buy first-hand, but all the King-Wilson books have been top picks as soon as I can get them ordered!

Mahalo in advance!
Janet R.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on October 16, 2011, 05:58:24 PM
In the late 80's the show Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this.

Here is Part One:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht8pj9j8ub0&feature=related

Part Two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNZC3QgKmbs&feature=related
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: Carisbrooke on October 17, 2011, 02:57:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNVW9KFbvnU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNVW9KFbvnU)     SWR TV

   This is interesting too. Its a news report from SWR TV in Unterlengenhardt (5 mins long). Unfortunately I do not speak German though it does appear some residents of the village just can't let go. Here you too can see the house where she lived, and visit the cafe Anastasia  ........thats if you really want to ?

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 7
Post by: TimM on January 17, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
Looks to me that they want the tourist bucks.