Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Byzantine Heritage => Topic started by: Ex-Princess Lisa on September 15, 2007, 03:12:54 PM

Title: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on September 15, 2007, 03:12:54 PM
I have heard some information with regards to Romanov DNA and I would like other peoples views on it.

"The male Purcell Y chromosome and the male Romanov Y chromosome is basically the same. only a few fast mutating markers difference.
This would indicate a common male ancestor.
Historically this would make sense, because the Romanovs were meant to have descended from Byzantine Royalty and the Purcells are descendents of Sir Percival, who was the same male line as Charlemagne, who was meant to have descended from Byzantine Royalty.
It is a J haplotype."

Does anyone have good knowledge of Byzantine Royalty? Could anyone comment on the historical statement - were Romanovs descended in the male line from Byzantine Royalty?
I cannot remember where I read Charlemagne was descended from Byzantine royalty, any ideas anyone? There is conflicting information on Charlemagnes ancestory.

However I do know that most of the Irish Purcell bloodline was wiped out by Cromwells army. Certaintly the ones that were left had their lands, castle and titles taken away from them. Their very existence all but wiped out of the history books.

Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ilias_of_John on September 20, 2007, 03:15:39 AM
Why ex Princess Lisa?
To us you will always be a Princess.  :)
anyway, the Romanovs are clear and undisputed direct descendants of quite a few Byzantine Imperial Families.
The first that comes to mind is Ivan III, his father was a brother of the last Emperor Constantine.There is a link that Lucien just posted on it.
Also, the first Christianized Tsar in the 9th century married a Byzantine princess,Very political that one was, apparently he got offered the bride and Royal Titles etc if he stopped attacking Black sea realms of the Byzantine Empire etc etc etc.Try a google search with Romanov and Byzantine descent and I am certain you will get lots of answers.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on September 20, 2007, 02:11:34 PM
I was talking about from Byzantine Royalty in a direct male line.

As for being Ex-Princess Lisa - I was very happy being Princess Lisa, then I got married.

So now I have my husbands title, but there is some amount of confusion over exactly what his title is, so I'm merely Ex-Princess Lisa.

Actually there is a funny story concerning this.

'.........................................................................marriage by proxy...................................................................................
.....I'm definitely not talking to him.......................................................................'

so I remain Ex-Princess Lisa and her incredible disappearing husband.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on October 01, 2007, 04:48:31 PM
I've got some lovely photos of the ruins of Purcell castle, I'll have to find them and post them on here.
Before anyone starts complaining this is off topic, it does link in nicely with Byzantium.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Valmont on October 02, 2007, 09:53:30 AM

The first that comes to mind is Ivan III, his father was a brother of the last Emperor Constantine.

I thought Ivan III had married Sophia Paleologos, the sister of Andreas Paleologos, who was the last Byzantine Emperor
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on October 02, 2007, 01:47:29 PM
Thanks for your post Valmont, do you have any information about Charlemagne being descended from Byzantine ancestry on the male line.

I presume all the French Kings think they were descended from Byzantine ancestry.

Does the Duc d' Orleans think he is descended from Byzantine ancestry, do you think? Its seems to me they think they are Byzantine Imperial blood in the male line. It a shame then for him that he has a R1b Y chromosome so that means he cannot possibly be descended directly in the male line from the ALL IMPORTANT Byzantine Imperial Blood.

All the arguments about who has the most noble bloodline of all the royal bloodlines will undoubtedly carry on, even when the argument has been won. Which it has.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Valmont on October 02, 2007, 06:57:20 PM
I don't know the Duc D'Orleans, so I cannot tell what he thinks regarging wether or not he has Byzantine  Ancenstry... Sorry I can't help you..
Best Regards,

Vicount D'Valmont
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ilias_of_John on October 02, 2007, 10:07:55 PM
What arguement has been won?
I havent had a chance to throw in my two cents?
Damn!!!!
And what is IMPORTANT Byzantine Royal Blood?

 ???
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Valmont on October 03, 2007, 10:17:48 AM
I have NO idea.....
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on October 03, 2007, 07:41:52 PM
Royalty have apparently been arguing about it for ages. Of course I'm a woman and I do not really get involved in it as it is on the male side.

Being descended in any way from Charlemagne is important to European Royalty. as we all know. The French kings were considered highly because of their lineage from Charlemagne. The more closely linked the better.
Although I have read various different accounts of who Charlemagne descended from, anyone who is anyone, and by that I mean Royal, knows that Charlemagne descended from the Imperial Byzantine Family, in the male line.
It goes further back then that. Anyway to cut a very long story short and leaving out several thousand years history, the story goes that the Byzantine Imperial bloodline was originally Eygptian Pharoahs and Eygptian Pharoahs thought they were descended from Ra, the Sun God. This was certainly believed by the French Kings, I cannot remember which Louis it was that went around telling everyone that he was the Sun King. I'm not saying this is true, I'm just saying this is what they believed.
Anyway, being descended from Byzantine Royalty brought them status and they have been arguing about it ever since.
So now that we have DNA testing, the whole argument has moved into a new phase.
Unfortunately every Royal line that claims to be descended in a direct male line from the Byzantine Royalty, has a different Y chromosome. So none of them can prove that they are the correct bloodline. (Royalty really are obsessed with bloodlines)
Until now.
Romanov Y chromosome matches Purcell Y chromosome.
It takes more than just chance for 2 royal lines to match. The Romanov have an obvious link to Byzantine Royalty. The Purcells have a provable link to Charlemagne and therefore to Byzantine royalty.
Unfortunately for the Duc d'Orleans not only does he not match, he also has an R1b haplotype, which is a distinctly Northern European Haplotype.

The Romanovs and the Purcells have a J haplotype, which is distinctly from the Middle East.

(For anyone that is interested in these things, Coburg Saxe Gotha Y chromosome is also R1b, but its a different R1b to the Duc d'Orleans one.
R1b is a very common haplotype and most men in Northern Europe carry a version of it.)

I'm only pointing this out because the Duc d'Orleans makes so much of the fact he has such a Royal bloodline, the cross of Malta on everything to indicate his Imperial blood and he is such a fraud. Yes, I agree he is descended from the French Kings, but as none of the French Kings descendents, either legitimate or illegitimate have anything like a Middle East haplotype, it seems safe to assume that the Byzantine Bloodline died out a very long time ago in France.
Luckily for the Purcells they left the country in 1066.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ilias_of_John on October 03, 2007, 09:45:09 PM
Whoa, Please4....
hold on I just fell off my chair!
Here we go... is this something to do with the so called Divine right of Kings?
Any Merovignians about?
Descent from the Sun God Ra?
I'll just move over to the co pilots seat, Googoo from Sirus is the pilot and we are going to Saturn for a liquid lunch!

It is important that we realise that there were 87 DIFFERENT Byzantine Emperors from about 13 dynasties, and not one of them was remotely connected to Charles The Great.not in the male or female line anyway.
Sure they may have married off their daughters or nieces in to his family after he became Emperor, but that doesent mean his blood is the same is theirs.
Now as for Byzantine blood,
The Romanovs do have it in the female line because we know that Byzantine Princess' married Russian Tsars.
There are also noble families like the Comneni, Lascaris and Paleologue that undoubtably have continued but as to whether they have  blood in the male or female line is contentious.The last Byzantine Emperor was killed defending the city with no male issue so his line is extinct.I would therefore say that there is no legitimate claimant to the empty throne.(especially after 547 years).
As for the Duc d'Orleans, he is related to the last legitimate French Dynasty, but I dont know anything about his claims to being related to the Pharaohs of Egypt.
Googoo reckons we should pick him up in Paris on the way to lunch........it will make for interesting conversation!!!



:)

Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Valmont on October 04, 2007, 03:35:28 PM
And to think I thought Britney Spears was a troubled girl....She's soooo fine...
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ilias_of_John on October 04, 2007, 05:59:16 PM
She's my flight engineer!
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Valmont on October 05, 2007, 10:26:01 AM
Hey, maybe you guys could also pick Ex-princess Lisa and me and we could all go to saturn and enjoy that delicious liquid lunch while your flight engineer performs her latest hit.... Let me see if I can contact the sun god Ra so he can meet us there and we can hear the truth out of his lips... We are going to have so much fun...
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ilias_of_John on October 05, 2007, 06:18:24 PM
Now you are being ridiculous!






everyone knows that Ra doesent drink!
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Valmont on October 08, 2007, 03:42:29 PM
Mea Culpa.. . . .
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on October 09, 2007, 05:06:49 PM

Any Merovignians about?


No, There are no Merovignians about, I was not talking about Merovingnians. Generally I'm not very polite about them.

Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Valmont on October 09, 2007, 09:00:56 PM
Ra doesn't like them very much either...
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ilias_of_John on October 09, 2007, 11:33:03 PM
I'll ring Googoo, see what he has to say!
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on October 10, 2007, 08:06:48 PM
The Purcells landed in England in 1066. 2 Generations later Strongbow invited Sir Hugh Purcell to join him fighting for the King of Leinster against the other kings of Ireland. Sir Hugh Purcell was the father of all the Purcells in Ireland.
He was buried in French Church, Waterford.
The Purcells shield crest was the 3 lions. Unfortunately for the Purcells nobody in Ireland knew what a lion looked like 800 years ago, so the engravings of their crest looked more like 3 pigs.
After Cromwells armies had killed most of them and the rest were proverty stricken, the Purcells were erased from nobility. A reverand even went so far as to write a book about how the Purcells got their name and crest, (that a man had to catch a pig in order to marry a rich mans daughter and so was named little pig afterwards) Unfortunately this misinformation stuck and even today if you look up the shield crest for Purcell, it is either 3 or 4 pigs or 3 or 4 pigs heads.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ilias_of_John on October 10, 2007, 08:36:55 PM
Terrific, now we have 3 flying little pigs.
I just did a wikipedia on the Purcells,and they are of French ancestry no doubt,however, no obvious link exists with Charlemagne and oe with the Romanovs.
and besides, who cares?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barons_of_Loughmoe
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ex-Princess Lisa on October 11, 2007, 07:33:31 AM
Terrific, now we have 3 flying little pigs.
I just did a wikipedia on the Purcells,and they are of French ancestry no doubt,however, no obvious link exists with Charlemagne and oe with the Romanovs.
and besides, who cares?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barons_of_Loughmoe

That is a very interesting article on wikipedia, but I would disagree with it on at least one point. I do not believe Hugh Purcell was called Hugh Porcel at any point. I would like to see the original evidence for this.
The reverend who wrote the story about the Purcells being descended from a pig farmer states that the name Purcell comes from the French word Porcel, meaning little pig.
In reality Purcell is a derivative of the name Percival (as in Sir Percival)
The pig story is intended as an insult to the Purcells, because they were supposed to be descended from Jewish blood, the reverend must have known this and saying that a jewish person is descended from a pig farmer is a greater insult than saying non-jewish person is descended from a pig farmer.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Ilias_of_John on October 11, 2007, 08:29:43 AM
Of course,
pigs and jews, how remiss of us not to notice it!
Now if you are going to start to involve Percival, Gallahad, Arthur, grails Merovignians,,,,,and RA I am taking my bat, and my ball and going home.
:)
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Norbert on May 07, 2008, 04:24:06 PM
sadly the Byzantine throne was usually the prize of many usurping Emperors many of whom were from quite base lineage. The Paleologolos dynasty inherited a principality in italy and their descendants married into the royal houses of Europe.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Norbert on July 08, 2008, 03:10:30 PM
Byzantine marriages were with the House of Rurik...the Romanovs were elected on the extinction of the main line of that family in 1613 and were very remotely connected. However Catherine II and the Holsteins had Byzntine descent
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: MacL on June 20, 2009, 11:30:19 PM
This was an interesting topic. It did not deserve such snide replies.
Unless an in-group posted it all as a farce; then I am being a fool. Otherwise, Ilias and Valmont  are lacking in common courtesy.
Bloodlines and genetic links are an interesting concept. Can't someone develop this further, without the sarcasm.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: JonC on January 25, 2010, 04:36:12 PM
Believe me, that would be tough, unfortunately!
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 19, 2010, 10:37:27 AM
The Purcells shield crest was the 3 lions. Unfortunately for the Purcells nobody in Ireland knew what a lion looked like 800 years ago, so the engravings of their crest looked more like 3 pigs.
After Cromwells armies had killed most of them and the rest were proverty stricken, the Purcells were erased from nobility. A reverand even went so far as to write a book about how the Purcells got their name and crest, (that a man had to catch a pig in order to marry a rich mans daughter and so was named little pig afterwards) Unfortunately this misinformation stuck and even today if you look up the shield crest for Purcell, it is either 3 or 4 pigs or 3 or 4 pigs heads.

That's not pigs' heads, but boars' heads. I've never seen any heraldic pigs, but plenty of boars, for all the Von Ebersteins etc. And BTW the Shand arms in the arms of HRH the Duchess of Cornwall also features a boar's head. (Admittedly the lean, hairy medieval pigs which were taken to graze on acorns in the woods and there probably mated with boars looked a lot like boars, but still people differentiated between wild boars and domestic pigs.) The ferocious boar was treasured game for noble hunters and especially among the Celts it had mythological status and features in many legends, despite being extinct in Ireland today.

Ex-Princess Lisa, you'd better focus your energy on Finland: Nicholas II, "the heir of the Orthodox Byzantine Emperors, Tsar of the Third Rome" deported a certain Finnish politician and nobleman called Pehr Evind Svinhufvud (= Swine Head) to Siberia. Svinhufvud came back and led the Finnish fight for independence against God's Anointed Autocrat and Grand Duke of Finland and "usurped" his position, as Regent and later President of Finland! That should surely hold enormous significance for you! :-)
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Kalafrana on March 19, 2010, 02:27:58 PM
The Byzantine throne was hotly contested and there were numerous dynasties, most of them relatively short-lived by Western European Standards. Following his conversion, St Vladimir married the sister of the Emperors Basil II (the Bulgar Slayer) and Constantine (?VII). They belonged to the Macedonian dynasty, which was one of the longer-lasting. Vladimir Monomakh's mother was a daughter of the Emperor Constantine Monomachus.

Ann
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 19, 2010, 02:30:57 PM
St Vladimir married the sister of the Emperors Basil II (the Bulgar Slayer) and Constantine (?VII). They belonged to the Macedonian dynasty, which was one of the longer-lasting. Vladimir Monomakh's mother was a daughter of the Emperor Constantine Monomachus.
But they were not necessarily ancestors of the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Kalafrana on March 20, 2010, 05:09:26 AM
'But they were not necessarily ancestors of the Romanovs.'

Indeed not. Until Anastasia Romanova married Ivan the Terrible they were a fairly modest family.

For all the complexities of Byzantine history, and the multitudinous dynasties, can I recommend John Julius Norwich's three volumes on Byzantiim.

Ann
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 21, 2010, 06:00:00 PM
By redirecting Ex-Princess Lisa from the Celtic mists of Ireland to not so romantic Finland I just realized: Ex-Princess Lisa's dubious linking of Byzantine dynasties to the Purcell family in Ireland really is similar to Holy Blood, Holy Grail's and the DavInci Code's ending up with the Scottish Sinclairs and the Rosslyn chapel. No doubt this endearing, but also annoying compulsion to connect anything mythical to the Celtic Fringe really is a sales trick geared towards American sensibilities.
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: richard_1990 on June 20, 2010, 04:15:18 AM
Could anyone enlighten me as to what the full title of the Byzantine sovereigns was?
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Kalafrana on June 21, 2010, 03:34:18 AM
One of the Byzantine titles was 'Equal of the Apostles'.

Ann
Title: Re: Romanov Byzantine Ancestry
Post by: Constantinople on June 22, 2010, 01:00:12 AM
The title of all Emperors listed preceding Heraclius was officially Augustus, although various other titles such as Dominus were used as well. For official purposes, their names were preceded by Imperator Caesar and followed by Augustus. Following Heraclius, the title commonly became the Greek Basileus (Gr. Βασιλεύς), which had formerly meant generally "king", "sovereign" but now was used in place of Imperator. Following the establishment of a rival Empire in Western Europe (the Holy Roman Empire), the title Autokrator (Gr. Αυτοκράτωρ) was also increasingly used. Foreign kings were now titled by the neologism Regas (Gr. Ρήγας, from the Lat. "Rex") or by another generic term Archon (Gr. Άρχων, "ruler"). In the later centuries of the Empire, the emperor could be often referred to by Western Christians as the "Emperor of the Greeks," though they still considered themselves "Roman" Emperors. Towards the end of the Empire, they referred to themselves as "[Emperor's name] in Christ, true Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans."