Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Maria_Romanov_fan on November 23, 2004, 08:38:29 PM

Title: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on November 23, 2004, 08:38:29 PM
I have heard more than once that when the Romanov bodies where found, Russia wanted to make it seem as Maria had survived. Is that possible?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on November 23, 2004, 08:51:41 PM
It is true the Russian scientists believe it was Marie and not Anastasia who is missing. This is interesting, since we now have that story of Marie being in love with the guard, who also was missing. Now that would be a good story, much better than the AA story!

But sadly I don't think anyone could have escaped :'(
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 23, 2004, 09:20:02 PM
Quote
This is interesting, since we now have that story of Marie being in love with the guard, who also was missing. Now that would be a good story


It is... The Kitchen Boy by Robert Alexander
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on November 24, 2004, 04:53:52 AM
Also remember that Anastasia had only turned 17 the previous month . . . so the skeleton should've had an immature sacrum for it to be her.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: KatieAnn on December 06, 2004, 04:35:48 AM
Don't know if this is the right place to post this, but here goes.  In Britain, on National Geographic (a satellite/cable channel) on 20 December they're showing "In Search of A Princess", which tells the story of a woman who lived in South Africa for many years and claimed to be the Grand Duchess Marie.  Show time's about 9pm if I remember correctly.  Just thought the British contingent who get TELEWEST might want to have a look and see what they think.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on December 06, 2004, 08:18:26 AM
I won't be able to get that, but please do give us a review when you watch it. I'm always interested in new and different claimant stories!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Lanie on December 06, 2004, 03:22:11 PM
Again people tend to forget that only Olga was positively identified by both teams.  Tatiana could be missing for all we know.  IMO the heights compared with photographs make no sense for ANY of them to be missing, even Anastasia--but that's just me.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on December 06, 2004, 05:06:25 PM
Quite some time ago,  I suggested Marie and her boyfriend were missing since her birthday.....  Nicholas II didn't write in his diary for a few days after the event... I thought something "Big" had happened....   But,  I was pounced on by those who had copies of the diaries who said Marie was mentioned in Alexandra's diary.... after that day....

Can we  assume that no one has ever tampered with the diary / diaries....???

Can we ask more questions about the possibility that Marie vanished on that day?

It was this point in time the CHEKA made a point of replacing the  guard commander Avdeyev with Yurovsky.

AGRBear

PS  There was a group who had set up a website to show how they thought the missing daughter was Tatiana....  Anyone remember the site's URL....?  Found it at:
http://www.livadia.org/missing/
PSS  Link where Maria and Alexandra's diaries were discussed:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1074956237;start=200
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on December 07, 2004, 08:22:10 AM
Quote
Don't know if this is the right place to post this, but here goes.  In Britain, on National Geographic (a satellite/cable channel) on 20 December they're showing "In Search of A Princess", which tells the story of a woman who lived in South Africa for many years and claimed to be the Grand Duchess Marie.  Show time's about 9pm if I remember correctly.  Just thought the British contingent who get TELEWEST might want to have a look and see what they think.


This will be the Granny Alina story. Worth a watch, I'd say.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: KatieAnn on December 07, 2004, 09:14:15 AM
Thanks for reminding me of her name!  It's been driving me crackers.  I think I may have seen this before but I'll watch again.  Still don't think any of them got out though - but, maybe, miracles can happen.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Olga on December 07, 2004, 09:32:06 AM
Quote
Is that possible?


MRF, anything is possible if you believe it to be so.   ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Madal on December 07, 2004, 02:10:24 PM
I think it is very dificult to diference between Marie and Anastasia bodies. They were sisters (same family), Marie was only two years old than Anastasia; found (or missing) body would be very similar ...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: stepan on December 07, 2004, 04:07:47 PM
About possible survivors you may also like to read "The Romanov Conspiracies" by Michael Occleshaw. Part of the book is about the possibility of Tatiana being rescued by plane by the british agent Richard Meinertzhagen. interesting story!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on December 09, 2004, 02:14:31 PM
At the risk of going round an old loop for members I'm afraid Occleshaw's book does not bear serious examination.  A few points:

1/  Occleshaw has "Tatiana" flown out of Ekaterinberg by the British.  He doesn't explain how any aircraft got there or how it managed to then fly her to Vladivostok.  I have spoken at some length on this subject with the former editor of "Cross & Cockade International" and we are agreed there was no aircraft at the time could have feasibly done this.

2/ Occleshaw claims that records of the RAF contingent in North Russia 1918 (where he assumes the aircraft came from) are not released into the National Archive AIR1 papers and claims to have information they never will be.  He is correct in this - because they are in the AIR2 series and I have copies of them in my drawer.  Curiously they make no reference to a rescue mission.

3/ Occleshaw claims that Richard Meinertzhagen was working for a War Office section dealing with Intelligence on Russia - not according to the contemporary War Office List he wasn't.

4/ Occleshaw claims that a mysterious Miss Marguerite Lindsay who entered UK on 8 August 1918 on the same ship as Mrs Meinertzhagen was "Tatiana" as there is no record of her ever existing.  Those interested can trace her previous trans-atlantic journeys by looking her up on the Ellis Island web-site.  She seems to have travelled frequently prior to 1918.

5/ Occleshaw neglects to mention, in his excitement at finding Miss Lindsay arriving on the same ship as Mrs Meinertzhagen, that Richard meinertzhagen and his wife loathed each other like poison and their marriage was likely never consumated.  Mrs M is hardly the person he'd trust on a delicate mission.

Just a few of the fairly serious objections to Occleshaw's book which older members may have seen before.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Candice on December 09, 2004, 04:08:52 PM
There are so many claimants masquerading as OTMA and Alexei.  Could it be that all the children escaped and the people behind these claimants knew the truth.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 09, 2004, 05:53:35 PM
Quote
There are so many claimants masquerading as OTMA and Alexei.  Could it be that all the children escaped and the people behind these claimants knew the truth.


Nope.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Belochka on December 09, 2004, 09:50:00 PM
Quote
There are so many claimants masquerading as OTMA and Alexei.  Could it be that all the children escaped and the people behind these claimants knew the truth.


The only truth claimants understand is that they are aware that they are trying to deceive others who are willing to listen.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Candice on December 10, 2004, 05:54:02 PM
Exactly, by using deception there is no space for truth.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sian_Turner on December 11, 2004, 01:12:40 PM
Just a thought, having had a look at FOTR, for the zillionth time, it is such a well written piece of work!  However, I note from Yurovsky statements that they found no jewels on Marie at the Ganin mine, confirming in his mind her exclusion from the family.  But previously he says that Ermakov had a terrible time trying to kill her with a bayonet because it kept bouncing off her becuse of .... the protective layer of jewels.  It's just a thought.  Also having revisited The File on the Tsar (another good book which I will not dismiss out of hand as some on this site have done) would anybody like to comment on the telegram stating that the "family suffered the same fate as the head" which Sokolov so conveniently happened to suggest would contain the words family and fate? Sensible replies only please.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on December 11, 2004, 01:37:09 PM
First of all, thanks everyone!  ;)
A new thought just poped into my mind. How many MN claimants were there, and does anyone knew who they really were?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on December 11, 2004, 08:04:28 PM
Quote
Just a thought, having had a look at FOTR, for the zillionth time, it is such a well written piece of work!  However, I note from Yurovsky statements that they found no jewels on Marie at the Ganin mine, confirming in his mind her exclusion from the family.  But previously he says that Ermakov had a terrible time trying to kill her with a bayonet because it kept bouncing off her becuse of .... the protective layer of jewels.  It's just a thought.  Also having revisited The File on the Tsar (another good book which I will not dismiss out of hand as some on this site have done) would anybody like to comment on the telegram stating that the "family suffered the same fate as the head" which Sokolov so conveniently happened to suggest would contain the words family and fate? Sensible replies only please.


Interesting thoughts, Sian. I don't discount the File on the Tsar either, as Summers and Mangold certainly did their homework and are well-respected in their field. Obviously, with the discovery of the grave, we now know that some of it was inaccurate, but that's not to say it was all inaccurate.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on December 11, 2004, 08:07:12 PM
Quote
First of all, thanks everyone!  ;)
A new thought just poped into my mind. How many MN claimants were there, and does anyone knew who they really were?


There was one, Granny Alena. She never actually said which Grand Duchess she was, her relatives assumed Anastasia. However, an Australian professor from Monash University (a very respectable university in Australia) analysed the skull of Alena and said she could be MN. There's more information about her on the "Imperial Claimants" forum.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 11, 2004, 08:18:30 PM
Quote

There was one, Granny Alena. She never actually said which Grand Duchess she was, her relatives assumed Anastasia. However, an Australian professor from Monash University (a very respectable university in Australia) analysed the skull of Alena and said she could be MN. There's more information about her on the "Imperial Claimants" forum.

Cheers.


Alice,

Did they ever try to do DNA testing on her remains? How come they had her skull to examine, did they exhume her body for that?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on December 11, 2004, 10:43:04 PM
Hi Helen,

Yes, her remains were exhumed in the hope of conducting a DNA test. Apparently DNA could not be extracted from the remains, because the climatic conditions in South Africa (where she was buried) caused the condition of the remains to deterioriate.

However, I am puzzled as to why her two sons haven't been tested. Alena and her husband had two sons.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sian_Turner on December 12, 2004, 03:33:33 PM
Thanks for your response Alice, it was just something I came across when I was re-reading FOTR, as I say, which struck me as slightly odd.  I'm also keen to hear about the recent work done in the area of the Four Brothers, will we be able to see any early reports of that work here on the site?  It would be fascinating to hear what has been happening.  I'd also be keen to hear about any proposals for work in the Ekaterinburg archives as I'm sure this will produce a great deal of material for discussion.  I still find it interesting that the Bolsheviks were apparently looking for someone after the "execution" and information on this would appear to come from several reasonable sources.  I would also be fascinated to hear about whether DNA results are expected, or have been discussed, from the family of the dutch lady who claimed to be the sixth daughter.  Although of course, this would be subject to their agreement.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Martyn on December 17, 2004, 04:25:40 PM
The National Geographic programme 'In Search of a Princess' was quite entertaining as a detective story, but that is the  best that can be said of it.
The major arguments for suggesting that Alina (is that how one spells her name?) was GD Maria was the superimposition of the photographs of each woman's face and comparing the similarities.
In the end didn't they manage to extract some DNA which conclusively proved that she was not Maria?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on December 17, 2004, 07:39:20 PM
I didn't hear about them being able to extract DNA from her remains.

But I would like to know why her sons weren't tested, and whether her teeth were analysed for consistency with the fillings and dental work of those found in the mass grave.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on December 24, 2004, 08:38:41 PM
Kay,

Do you know why her sons (or even her grandson) have not been DNA tested?

Thanks,

Alice
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on December 25, 2004, 10:44:36 AM
 :o

This is fascinating, I hope we can get DNA tests on her family! I've always thought if anyone did survive they would not go around flaunting it as a claimant but live in obscurity. Wouldn't that be something if it was her? Keep us posted!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on December 27, 2004, 03:47:23 AM
When I return to Australia from Japan at the end of March, I might look up Louis Duvall and see if I can obtain further information about Granny Alena.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Belochka on December 27, 2004, 11:56:14 PM
Quote
The skull was submitted to Sheffield and Manchester Universities in England for forensic analysis through examination photographs and facial reconstruction. Both universities quickly became aware that there was no comparison to Anastasia, but independently decided to try a comparison to Maria. Their conclusions were that Granny Alina closely resembled Maria.


The word "resembles" when it comes to interpretation must be viewed with caution. It is scientifically meaningless.

The entire exercise conducted Mr Duval is a publicity seeking exercise to sell a book and other media items. It is absurd to contemplate that Marie "survived" the brutal massacre while others died in the same confined space. To want to believe any survivor ideas is a shameful nonsense and demonstrates a complete lack of respect to the present Romanov Family.

 

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Martyn on December 28, 2004, 03:30:38 AM
One can only assume that there was no DNA testing of the sons because that would have provided conclusive evidence as to the veracity of this assertion that Alina was a missing Grand Duchess (the programme concluded by virtually saying outright that she must have been Maria).
This programme was a piece of entertainment at best; I have to agree with Belochka in that the perpetuation of the survivor theories is futile.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on December 28, 2004, 11:20:51 AM
I don't really think anyone got away either, but this is interesting and should not be ruled out without proof like we have on AA.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on December 29, 2004, 05:37:53 AM
Quote
I don't really think anyone got away either, but this is interesting and should not be ruled out without proof like we have on AA.


Agree with Annie.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Martyn on December 29, 2004, 10:28:24 AM
Quote
I don't really think anyone got away either, but this is interesting and should not be ruled out without proof like we have on AA.


Yes, but do you really think that this particular story has potential to provide those answers?  I'm afraid that I don't.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Belochka on December 30, 2004, 12:25:39 AM
Why does one hear the words "we must keep an open mind" when it comes to issues involving claimants?

Perhaps someone can cogently explain why must we?

Surely it is time surely to stop all this speculative nonsense and recognize that all the Imperial Family were massacred in Ekaterinburg ... no escapes ... no survivors ... no familial claimants.

   
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on December 30, 2004, 12:48:47 AM
Quote
Why does one hear the words "we must keep an open mind" when it comes to issues involving claimants?

    


This has always bugged me in the AA threads. It also bugs me on other forums when people use it in other ways. There is a difference between 'open mind' and outrageous theories and pure fantasy. In the case of AA, there is no more room for 'open mind', we know for sure! I just want to rule it out so people will stop wondering and speculating. If we don't do the test there will always be questions and theories. Even if there's only a .0001% chance it could be her, there's nothing wrong with finding out and ruling out just for the record. Also when people refuse tests, it only makes conspiracy theorists have a reason to speculate more, 'why don't you want the test if you're so sure', etc.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Belochka on December 30, 2004, 01:12:55 AM
Quote
I don't think I could answer it any better than Dandywell did in his December 23rd post on What Do You Think Happened to the Imperial Family:


"My brain tells me they all died that night, my gut that it doesn't make sense, and my heart that I should keep searching, even if what my brain knows turns out to be true. That's why I'm on these boards."


The real truth is much harder to come to terms with. In these matters there is no room for the heart ... it will only hurt you even more the longer one denies that truth.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Belochka on December 30, 2004, 01:25:38 AM
Quote
Even if there's only a .0001% chance it could be her, there's nothing wrong with finding out and ruling out just for the record.  


No scientific analysis can provide absolute 100% certainty. That 99.9999% probability is the best which any professional scientist can offer.

I agree Annie,

.. it is that insignificant 0.0001% upon which claimants cling to without any real understanding of scientific procedure.

That minimal % value  can be then be used to maximize a nice 100% income when selling their work of fiction.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on December 30, 2004, 06:34:33 AM
I also know that for some, even 100% proof is still not enough (intestines switched, etc.)  :-/ and never will be. I just don't see any harm in testing to see what happens because if you don't people will always say 'why.' Let's just find out. And I know what you mean about people and their 'works of fiction' ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Martyn on December 30, 2004, 07:35:34 AM
Quote

The real truth is much harder to come to terms with. In these matters there is no room for the heart ... it will only hurt you even more the longer one denies that truth.


This the most sensible comment that I have read in this thread.  It is so eminently true.
The Granny Alina story has too many insoluble issues.  No DNA, no way to prove this theory.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Brigichan on February 20, 2005, 03:51:16 AM
Hello everyone, this is my first posting here, althogh I've been reading your comments for a while now. Nice to be here. :)

I have seen this documentary (National Geographic Channel - Riddles of the Death: Search for the Lost Princess - or at least I thinks that was the correct title...) last night. A friend of mine, who knows I'm really interested in what happent to the IF, told me enthusiasticly about it, so I got to watch it. But, the more it had been stated that Granny Alina was most likely the GD Maria, the more things came to my mind that there is less truth in the whole story at all.

1. First, I quite liked the reconstruction of the night when the IF was executed. Although, the actors/atcresses were far too young in their roles. The Grand Duchesses looked like mere teenagers, but, in contrary, Alexei looked much mature than he had been. The Tsar and Alexandra were younger too. but it does not really matter, since they portrayed the horror quite well. (how sad to say this... it had to be a truly horrorful night...) So this part of the 1 hour documentary was quite positive.

But, right to this comes my first doubt. I must say, I'm not familiar with ALL parts of the Yurovsky-report, even though I've read your posts carefully (wich helped me to understand many things, so thank you for it, really). But this film stated things I've never read before.
According to the documentary, Yurovsky seemed to travel with the truck that contained the bodies of the IF , with what seemed like 2 other gurads. It was said that the truck had brocken down for some reason (over-heated, because of the bad road conditions/heavy load in the back), so they had to stop at some railway-crossing. Yurovsky had sent away one of the guards with the "fat" railway watchman (to get help, to repair the truck) - watchwoman actually, because it was a woman. He took the remaining guard with himself and went to the forest to look for the troops they should be meeting later.

Could THIS be possible? Leaving the truck alone, whitout someone guarding it, risking the discovery of the executions? How on earth? I really have my doubts...

According to the footage, it was the time when some unknown helpers arrived and searched the truck, finding one GD and Alexei alive. So they rescued them, and vanished. Yurovsky, obviously, didn't notice the vanishing of the two bodies as they returned and continued their way to the destinied resting place of the IF.

OK, it obviously was dark, it was night, so it could be possible that Yurovsky and his people haven't seen the two bodies missing. But haven't the counted them before leaving them at the forest? Could a soldier miss a kind of duty like this? I'm sure those were nervous times, but...  ???

The documentary states that this railway-stopping WAS featured in Yurovsky's report, and that it matched the stories of Granny Alina. She told it to her sons and grandsons in the sixties, but the Yurovsky-report was public only in the ninties, so the narrator said it, too, is misterios, how they could match so good. *sarcasm*

So, back on the film. It said that the resqued princess was taken to Poland where she'd spent a few years to recover and get strong again. Then she headed for Berlin, again, with the help of these misterious resquers. In Germany she hoped to get support from a relative, his (because it was said he was some duke or so) names or titles are misterious, too. So it's very dizzy, all the way. She actually travelled in a wooden box on a ship...  ::) So, again, I really don't know what to think. One thing is bothering me: it was never said HOW she got to South Africa - or why there.

Another thing: if there was a resque like this, why were the silblings seperated? because Alexei in nowhere mentioned. The narrator stated that it's not the part of the film clearing what happened to the prince, but if they were alive together, why doesn't mention him Alina ever?
[although, we all know, that the young princes suffered from hemophilia, wich makes him heavier to survive with bleeding wounds...]

(continues in next post)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Brigichan on February 20, 2005, 04:35:53 AM
As many of you mentioned before, at South Africa shie's said to have married, having two sons. In the film there was a photo of her as a young woman and mother: sitting on a chair, having to little boys around her, her husband standing beside. I've found it interesting that her husband was 37 years older than her. Quite bizarre, I think...

Anyway. The 2 grandsons told that she always feared to be found by soldiers, by the KGB, and she was scared when police was nearby. (she's said to behave rather strange at times like this: hiding in her room, being qiuet, etc.) So this part could fit: anyone could have fears after what happenned to the IF.

Not much is mentioned about her life in South Africa whatsoever. What she did, how she got there, having friends or supporters... Wich is a pity, I think: it would have made the story more relyable.

The most of the documentary deals with the analysis of her remains and photos. As someone pointed out: there were 3 seperate researches at the same time: at Oxford, at Sheffield, and in Melbourne.
The narrator cleared some things up, wich I 'he found useful. I, too, read it on the internet, that Granny Alina's story was considered a fake because a DNA-analysis never was taken, or that the results were kept in secret. The film showed us, why this occured. In 1997 (if my mind serves me right) her remains were transported to Australia for analisys, but the bones were damaged during the way, and the researchers were afraid they'd not find anything useful - so, the things stopped for a while, if I remember correctly. But then they were carried on, later.

The photo-analysis was the most negative point in the film ever. I mean, drawing the outlines of the heads and compare them... It does not look very scientific to me. I'm not an expert, but there are surely more effective and up-to-date methods, involving computer-generated shemes wich would look more trustworthy. So, the "fact" that the eyes, the nose and the moths outlines matched by Granny Alina and Maria, really hasn't convinced me a bit. (but that's just me)

The mtDNA-analysis was as strange. Getting different results from the skull and from the leg is quite odd to me. They were compared with the ones a royal prince provided (I'm really sorry I can't remember his name - but his DNA was compared with Anna Anderson's too - maybe this helps). No match. But the documentary remained optimistic: they claimed, it can happen; the climatic conditions, the earth the bones were burried, everything can affect the changes in the result. (and again, someone mentioned this in this thread before) I think they called it "contamination", but it says nothing to me, I'm not an expert in things like that...

This would have been enough for me, not to believe the story, but then they came up with some conspiracy-like theory. Like: maybe, the husband, Frank had been a family guard, a bodyguard, loyal to the Romanovs, who helped Maria to escape. They took this new identity of a married couple to decieve the possible investigations, wich could explain the 37 years between them. And maybe the 2 little boys on the photo weren't even their children, they might only be part of this kind of role play.

I don't know, really. It's sad that the DNA of one of the grandsons weren't analysed, because it could have proven everything (or nothing). Interesting, though, watch it yourselves and decide...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on February 20, 2005, 11:33:05 AM
Brigichan: Thank you very much for the sketch of the program.

I found many interesting points.

Although some of you continue to deny the possibility that one of Nicholas II's daughters and Alexei, who's bodies were not found in Pig's Meadow, may have survived,  there are some of us who think it possible that one or both did survive.  

It is understandable that some of you continue to insert your opinions about the impossibility of any survivors on these threads.  I assume this is because you don't want the other readers to think there isn't objection to such theories.

It is just as understandable that some of us continue to search for answers as to what happen to the two Romanov children.

It was the Russians scientists who open the door to the fact that the missing person might not be Anastasia but Maria.

So,  some of us, on this thread and others, are searching for clues which may lead us to some answers to many unanswered questions.

Until the bodies are found, and, people like this Alina/Alena  are discovered, then, they and their family have all the rights to search for the truth.

It doesn't matter if one or all of us think the quests of the claimants families are a waste of time and effort.  

Until Alina's /Alena's case is set aside by each of us individualy then we should be able to discuss this case as openly and freely as needed.  

There should be no need to cause any "flaming".   Let's prove we can discuss this as adults who have respect for each other's opinion.


I'll start with the last few lines:

" Frank had been a family guard, a bodyguard, loyal to the Romanovs, who helped Maria to escape. They took this new identity of a married couple to decieve the possible investigations, wich could explain the 37 years between them. And maybe the 2 little boys on the photo weren't even their children, they might only be part of this kind of role play."

Penny's list of guards who were brothers...  told us that there was some guards who had known the Romanovs....  Hope she didn't erase the list."

I'll go find the names.

AGRBear

PS  Penny has withdrawn everything it seems.  I do wish I had copied that particular quote since it had a list of brothers and cousins who were guards at the Impatiev House.  These particular names pounced out at me and I'll give my quote:

Quote
Thanks Penny.

Do you know what happen to the following cousins:

Alexander and Konstantin Ukraintsev (These cousins knew the Romanovs from the Crimea, where they had played with Michael Alexandrovich and Olga Alexandrovna.)
AGRBear


These two men did know the Romanovs.

If these men, the Ukrainstevs,  were not invovled,  perhaps this "Frank" was.   And why not.  If it's possible for two, why not another like this Frank?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Denise on February 20, 2005, 12:12:37 PM
Quote

Although some of you continue to deny the possibility that one of Nicholas II's daughters and Alexei, who's bodies were not found in Pig's Meadow, may have survived,  there are some of us who think it possible that one or both did survive.  

It is understandable that some of you continue to insert your opinions about the impossibility of any survivors on these threads.  I assume this is because you don't want the other readers to think there isn't objection to such theories.

It is just as understandable that some of us continue to search for answers as to what happen to the two Romanov children.

It was the Russians scientists who open the door to the fact that the missing person might not be Anastasia but Maria.

So,  some of us, on this thread and others, are searching for clues which may lead us to some answers to many unanswered questions.

Until the bodies are found, and, people like this Alina/Alena  are discovered, then, they and their family have all the rights to search for the truth.

It doesn't matter if one or all of us think the quests of the claimants families are a waste of time and effort.  

Until Alina's /Alena's case is set aside by each of us individualy then we should be able to discuss this case as openly and freely as needed.  

There should be no need to cause any "flaming".   Let's prove we can discuss this as adults who have respect for each other's opinion.

AGRBear


Very well stated Bear!!  I totally agree... :)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Brigichan on February 22, 2005, 03:18:52 AM
You're welcome, AGRBear.  ;)

I hope you haven't misunderstood me. I do want to believe in some surviving story, but this one that was shown so official and unquestionable was not very convincing. Even Anna Anderson's is more believeable than this. I, too, think, that it's interesting that maybe Maria was the one that survived and not Anastasia. There should me more researches on this subject, and people should not see every claimnant as a faker... Some of them could hold truth too...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alice on February 22, 2005, 08:37:08 AM
I'm returning to Australia next week. I will try to contact Mr Duval, and ask if he would mind me asking him some questions. IF I manage to contact him, and IF he says it's OK, I'll post and everyone can suggest questions to ask him about the case . . .

There is actually more to the story than what the documentary provides . . . there was an article published in an Australian magazine circa 1996, about this case. I have it somewhere at home in Australia, if I manage to find it I'll put it on here for everyone to read . .
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on February 22, 2005, 09:34:01 PM
Have a safe travel. Alice.

 And all of us hope you can get in contact with Duval.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on February 22, 2005, 09:46:12 PM
Quote
You're welcome, AGRBear.  ;)

I hope you haven't misunderstood me. I do want to believe in some surviving story, but this one that was shown so official and unquestionable was not very convincing. Even Anna Anderson's is more believeable than this. I, too, think, that it's interesting that maybe Maria was the one that survived and not Anastasia. There should me more researches on this subject, and people should not see every claimnant as a faker... Some of them could hold truth too...


No one needs to believe in anyone having survived.

My remarks were not directed at you or any newbie but directed toward some of us oldsters who have become too set in our opinions  ;D ;D ;D

AGRBear

PS  Is there a list of claimants who thought they were/or wanted us to think they were GD Maria?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Brigichan on March 08, 2005, 05:41:39 AM
Quote
Dear Brigichan,

The title of the documentary (as I posted on December 24, 2004) is: In Search of a Lost Princess/Who Really Escaped the Massacre? I own a copy. This is already a confusing issue perhaps not to be confused further when concrete and accurate information regarding the title of the documentary and the title of the book and title of Mr. Duval's website and contact information has already been posted under this topic.
 


Dear Kay,

I mentioned that some of you posted earlier your thoughts and reviews on this film, and I've even said that I might not remember correctly (simply, because the film aired at 1 am, at night where I was most sleepy and tired). I tried to focus on what the documentary says and not the uber-correct title. I gave on the channel (Discovery), everyone should be able to look after if something's not familiar.
You might own your copy, you should be happy. And if your copy is titled the way you say, you may hold the truth. I certanly do not remember a sub-title Who Really Escaped the Massacre?. It's some eye-catcher but nothing familiar for me (what is mostly strange). I could be wrong, of course, but there may be 1 % chance that we both speak of two different films.
Anyway, my post had no intention to confuse anybody. If that happened, sorry.  
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: PucknDC on March 17, 2005, 01:32:47 PM
I would be curious to see some pictures of Aline and Maria...is there a link or some postings somewhere? It's funny, I used to work for a woman who's father was at minimum a megalomaniac ( LOL) who told me one time that her father told her that his Mopther was the GD Maria...I l thought it was rather funny, but when I looked back, she had two daughters, and the three of them bore a resemblance to the IF!!! I think it was probably  a bunch of %*&&() but it's interesting to point out that there are many people who want to believe in this. (The family name was Maitland by the way)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Malenkaya on March 17, 2005, 02:12:01 PM
Quote
I would be curious to see some pictures of Aline and Maria.


If you do a search you're sure to find something, but just to make it easy, here you go:

Maria:
(http://www.malenkaya.net/images/romanovs/maria.jpg)

Alina:
(http://www.malenkaya.net/images/romanovs/alina.gif)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: PucknDC on March 17, 2005, 02:21:04 PM
Thank You Malenkaya!!! Wow!!! Th ey really do look alike don't they????? guess ya never know, although they say everyone has a double...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on March 17, 2005, 02:55:58 PM
Yes, I see some connections!  ;D
But, Alina does not have Mashka's saucers!!!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Malenkaya on March 17, 2005, 03:33:49 PM
Quote
Thank You Malenkaya!!! Wow!!! Th ey really do look alike don't they????? guess ya never know, although they say everyone has a double...



That's just the thing...everyone has a double.  Goes along with the theory that "looks aren't everything."  ;D

I do see a resemblance.  Just like I see a resemblance between Alexandra and the woman from the tabloid who claimed to be Nicholas and Alexandra's daughter, born in1918.  If all someone has going for them is a physical resemblance, it's a nice start.  But it takes a lot more to make a claim credible.

This Granny Alina woman seems interesting, I hope more will be known of her story as time goes on.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: PucknDC on March 18, 2005, 07:26:37 AM
I have always been of two minds where the subject of survivors has been concerned, as I know many on here are. The romantic part of me hopes that someone or all did, as it is such a tragedy that such innocents had to be slaughtered. If they did, I have the feeling that they still had enough influence with their relatives to have dissapeared into obscurity, which is probably how it should have been. Let's face it, as the years go by, all of the players are gone, and if they did we really will never know unless something unexpectedly shows up.
The story would be fascinating to be sure!!!! If anyone knows, it would probably be the British Royal family, and unless someone can get Lilibet drunk and spill the beans, I wouldn't expect any big news soon!!! LOL
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Brigichan on April 01, 2005, 02:56:51 PM
Well, they really look alike to me too. Thanks for the pictures!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Malenkaya on April 01, 2005, 04:31:48 PM
Quote
Well, they really look alike to me too. Thanks for the pictures!


I chose that photo of Maria to put next to Alina because I thought it did make them look similar. (It's also a simple headshot that gives you a good look at the faces.)  However, that's because I do find their features similar.  Maria's eyes were rounder, but with age (and some weight) I could see them not looking as big and round as they did in her youth.  Most interesting to me is the mouth and chin - look closely at both photos and see if you see what I do.

What I find sad in this case (and a bit frustrating) is that they say they couldn't get DNA out of her bones because of the condition of the soil in South Africa.   (Did I really read that right?  Was she not buried inside a casket?)

How ironic would it be if she were Maria and DNA technology couldn't give us an answer because mother nature messed it up?

Talk about mysteries without end...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: sunnyluv on April 03, 2005, 05:42:09 PM
I see what you mean about the chin structure--both faces look really very much alike;  I do not know enough about DNA--may be they still can do analysis but because of the condition of the soil the results could not be predicted with much accuracy?  Still would be interesting to get a result;  I think the test on her children could be done as well to see if they are related to IF;  Waiting for Alice to come back--and see if she can bring any news???

Then there is logic--how could she escape?  Surely she might have escaped (if that is indeed her) before the shooting took place--she looks without any scars;
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Malenkaya on April 03, 2005, 06:34:59 PM
Quote
I see what you mean about the chin structure--both faces look really very much alike;


I just did a search and read an interview about her.  (http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/history/Transcripts/s1227254.htm.) Apparently they did facial reconstruction on her, and just like with AA and FS, the space between the eyes, etc, were a match.  The main difference between them is that Alina has a wider chin - which they think could have been the result of having it broken during the executions.  I'm not sure whether or not that would be true, but I guess I could imagine it could be possible.  (They also say they "know" Maria's chin was broken during the murders - do we know that to be true? I remember in FOTR reading that she was shot in the leg, but I don't recall anything specific about her chin.)

Quote
I do not know enough about DNA--may be they still can do analysis but because of the condition of the soil the results could not be predicted with much accuracy?  Still would be interesting to get a result;  I think the test on her children could be done as well to see if they are related to IF;  Waiting for Alice to come back--and see if she can bring any news???


Apparently the DNA was "contaminated" by the soil.  Not sure if there is any way around that.  The man who is pursuing the story was not a biological relative, so I'm not sure what kind of testing is available.  But she did have biological children, and if any of them had kids, there should be someone who could provide blood for DNA testing.  I know that if someone claimed my grandmother was a Grand Duchess, even if I didn't believe it, I would give blood for testing just to have the question answered.  Of course, not everyone may feel that way.

Quote
Then there is logic--how could she escape?  Surely she might have escaped (if that is indeed her) before the shooting took place--she looks without any scars;


There is nothing on the website that gives away the story of her escape.  Just that she arrived with her husband and children in South Africa in 1925, and eventually she told them she was a Russian Duchess and her family had been executed.  (I find it interesting the book is called "A Princess In The Family" when the daughters of the IF were actually higher than the rank of Princess in Russia.  But he states Granny Alina had said she was a Duchess, not a Princess.)

Aside from the similarities in appearance, I think the strongest part of this case may be that she never pursued the identity of a member of the IF.  She told her "family" and it was kept as a secret.  If anyone did survive, I would think it would have been that way.  The survivor would want their family to know the truth, but at the same time want to live in safety and anonymity during the course of their lifetime.  On the other hand, I read that the remains of the person buried under Anastasia's name was 5'7", which leads me to believe Maria is probably buried under her name.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: GD Alexandra on April 03, 2005, 06:43:36 PM
Somewhere i don't know were (maybe in this forum), I read an article about granny Alina. I think I'm confused 'cause in that article it says she claimed to be the fifth daughter of the tsar, nor Marie or Nastya, just a fifth one.
Does anyone knows about this?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Malenkaya on April 03, 2005, 08:40:17 PM
There was a thread here that contained a scan of a tabloid article about a woman who claimed to be the 5th daughter of Nicholas & Alexandra.  I don't recall seeing any link to her story and the Granny Alina story.

Anastasia
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on April 03, 2005, 08:44:59 PM
Duval's web site on Alena:
http://www.aprincessinthefamily.tk/

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: sunnyluv on April 04, 2005, 02:48:50 PM
The woman who claimed to be the 5th daughter is different from granny Alena claimant;   She claimed to be the 5th daughter Irina;  She looks in the picture a lot like the Empress, but there is not much following up on her story, only one article published long time ago;  Granny Alena is a very interesting case because she was not seeking any recognition and now because her relatives are interested in conducting invesigation into this case;  Would be great to learn more...

Thanks,
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: sunnyluv on April 04, 2005, 02:54:56 PM
What happened to her boys--John and Anthony?  Are they still living?  Where she met Frank--her husband (I read their names on the website);
Anyone knows?  Thanks:)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: lexi4 on April 09, 2005, 10:57:16 PM
Quote
I don't think I could answer it any better than Dandywell did in his December 23rd post on What Do You Think Happened to the Imperial Family:


"My brain tells me they all died that night, my gut that it doesn't make sense, and my heart that I should keep searching, even if what my brain knows turns out to be true. That's why I'm on these boards."

Indeed



Ditto.  



Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: lexi4 on April 09, 2005, 11:15:13 PM
Does anyone know how to get a copy of the book? I went to the web site and could not order it through the provided links.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Denise on April 10, 2005, 11:43:14 AM
I think you need to email the author at the lnik provided on the site.  At least that is what it used to say for international sales.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: lexi4 on April 10, 2005, 04:37:16 PM
I have sent the email, but so far recieved no reply. Hopefully, I will hear something. Would love to read that book.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Denise on April 11, 2005, 07:45:39 AM
Let me know if you hear back from him.  I would like to read that book as well.  I am not too sure about this claimant at all, but based on photo evidence and the fact that she never came forward, I would like to know more.  

It is incredibly unlikely that anyone escaped the Ipatiev basement, but it does make a good story.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: lexi4 on April 11, 2005, 06:48:34 PM
Quote
Let me know if you hear back from him.  I would like to read that book as well.  I am not too sure about this claimant at all, but based on photo evidence and the fact that she never came forward, I would like to know more.  

It is incredibly unlikely that anyone escaped the Ipatiev basement, but it does make a good story.

So far, I have not heard back from him. It has been a couple of days since I sent the email. Will keep you posted.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: snugglemummy on January 11, 2006, 12:34:02 AM
I personally believe that Maria's is the missing body, although I don't have time right now to explain all the reasons why I believe this. As for survival though - it is a good point that a missing body does not mean someone actually survived.

However, if any of the GDs were to have been rescued, one would think Maria is the most likely candidate because she was the friendliest with the guards and the one they liked the best. I know that sounds a silly romantic thing to say.

I don't believe Granny Alina is Maria, though. I would ask one thing, if it has not already been asked - if Maria had sons, surely they had a good chance of being haemophiliacs?

Must dash, sorry if my thoughts are incomplete.
Sarah
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: snugglemummy on January 11, 2006, 03:54:27 PM
Sorry for the scatterbrained post, I was interrupted halfway through and only had a couple of minutes to complete it. What I meant to say is that my readings of all the evidence do not discount for me the possibility that Maria's was the missing body. This was a difficult conclusion for me to reach since I tended to support AA until the DNA results threw a spanner in those works. I also believe that it is entirely possible for there to have been a survivor, since reports of this began emerging even before the public knew about the execution.

I'd like to discuss the theory that Maria and her "boyfriend" may have escaped earlier. Sorry, I know it was posted ages and ages ago, but I've only just found this thread and thought it was an interesting question.

Firstly, I want to point out that there is really no suggestion he was her boyfriend or that she was in love with him. All we know is that he brought her a cake and they were caught in a compromising situation, which could mean anything. Many of the guards seemed to like Maria especially, so it doesn't mean that she was in love with one in particular, or that they had a special relationship, for one to bring her a birthday cake.

Secondly, if Maria did indeed escape at that time, I would imagine they would have searched the town for her at that time, and there would be reports of that. I know there were reports of this after the execution, but why would they wait so long to search? Also, I believe women came in to wash the floor after the episode on her birthday, and they said all the GDs were there helping them move beds and quite cheerful.

On the other hand, it is fun to think about romantic theories like this, and if Maria did indeed escape and went unfound, it may be why they killed the rest of the family - such a huge breakdown in security, the risk of it happening again, and to cover up the escape of one member.

However, can anyone imagine Maria willingly leaving her family behind?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: calebGmoney on January 11, 2006, 11:03:46 PM
I do not believe that Marie is missing, simply because I believe that the missing body is most likely that of Anastasia.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on January 21, 2006, 11:09:12 AM
Here is some information on why the Russians scientist think the missing skeleton is Maria's:

Quote
Here is the html text for the article in Volumn 285, Issue 1, Pages 15-32, Lev L Koesnikov, Gurge A. Pashinyan, and Sergey S. Abramov's report which includes photographs, sketches and why they think the missing body is Maria and not Anastasia.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/77502025/HTMLSTART


Published 2 March 2001.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 21, 2006, 02:28:26 PM
To those Russian experts out there: any chance another team, mutually selected by both America and Russia, will be allowed to examine the bones yet another time to try and provide a more concrete concensus?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: GD_Sasha on January 22, 2006, 09:31:21 AM
Quote
Thank You Malenkaya!!! Wow!!! Th ey really do look alike don't they????? guess ya never know, although they say everyone has a double...

I think Alina's face seems a little more full than Mashka's.Also it doesn't look like she has "Mashka's Saucers".They do seem to have the same lips,skin and hair(although it would be easier if there were more photos of Granny Alina with her hair down so we could tell!)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on January 22, 2006, 10:40:35 AM
Quote

If you do a search you're sure to find something, but just to make it easy, here you go:

Maria:
(http://www.malenkaya.net/images/romanovs/maria.jpg)

Alina:
(http://www.malenkaya.net/images/romanovs/alina.gif)


Missed seeing the photos.  Today,  they are not showing anything but a question mark, which means they are not longer found by the search engine so we can see them.  Can you reenter them so we can see these photos?

Thanks

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: José on February 04, 2006, 01:19:10 PM
Quote

No one needs to believe in anyone having survived.

My remarks were not directed at you or any newbie but directed toward some of us oldsters who have become too set in our opinions  ;D ;D ;D

AGRBear


Has there been discussed here the infamous Alexis d'Anjou, "grandson" of GDss Maria ?
He wrote a book "I, Alexis, great-grandson of the Tsar"
He pretended that :
1. Tsarina Alix and GDssOlga lived as nuns in Poland after 1918. Olga died in 1977.
2.  GDss Maria married Nicholas Dolgoruki, volodar and "king" of Ukraine.
They had 2 daughters: Olga-Beata and Julia Yolanda.
Olga married "Prince" Basil of Anjou and he was Alexis was their son.
PS  Is there a list of claimants who thought they were/or wanted us to think they were GD Maria?

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2006, 05:02:54 PM
The above post makes it appear that Bear said all of this but what follows my signiture was written by  JaBB_ Jose:

>>Has there been discussed here the infamous Alexis d'Anjou, "grandson" of GDss Maria ?
He wrote a book "I, Alexis, great-grandson of the Tsar"
He pretended that :
1. Tsarina Alix and GDssOlga lived as nuns in Poland after 1918. Olga died in 1977.
2.  GDss Maria married Nicholas Dolgoruki, volodar and "king" of Ukraine.
They had 2 daughters: Olga-Beata and Julia Yolanda.
Olga married "Prince" Basil of Anjou and he was Alexis was their son.
PS  Is there a list of claimants who thought they were/or wanted us to think they were GD Maria?<<

-----

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Maj. Jesse Cairns on February 22, 2006, 02:49:59 PM
Hi ;

Maj. Jesse Carnes here.   I am a newbie at the Alexander Palace T.M., and some believe that Marie and Alexei did in fact survive.  May I add my two KOPEKS worth?
(I searched for a thread that matched mine perfectly and this was as close to a Survivors' Thread as I could scrounge.
   
Oooooooh---yes,  I know this thread creates some seething and bubbling, within the warp-and-woof of some people's emotional fabric.  But I will try to be gentle.   Let me say that in light of the somewhat liked and somewhat disliked King & Wilson book [F.O.T.R.], if... IF what K & W say [and document] is accurate, then the argument is closed for three reasons :

1.  sheer logic of the series of events.  How--Logistically--would have Nicky have gotten Aleksey and a sister OUT of the Impatiev House unseen.   Would not Yakov Yurovsky--the new vile commandant--have been ready for such a ploy?

2.  sheer logic that so many people [some giving accounts were Bolshies, admittedly] gave accounts that TENDED to agree.   Yes, there were some inconsistencies with Yakov Yurovsky's report [1920s], albeit. Some eyewitnesses--shooter(s)--said how each person was murdered in graphic details.  Ermakov was another shooter who finished some of OTMAA, himself.
Has his reported activity in this heinous crime been refuted yet?

3.  the Bolsheviks (" Bolshevikii monstri" IMHO) did NOT want any survivors to raise the hopes of the masses of Russians still devoted to the Monarchy.    

Now, let me add this :  if the family had replaced Aleksey and one girl of OTMA with a replacement, then what  YOUNG person would have been intrepid enough to give their life--vicariouisly--for another?

[SEE Romans 5:7 . . .  "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die." ]

Another comment with moral repurcussion :  Would Nicky and Alix have been willing to permit the deaths of two replacement young teens?   I simply do not see Nicky allowing such a noble but deadly sacrifice.  All of you Nicky fans out there--a question :  Would his character profile have permitted such a replacement?

Add to this, was it not also crystal clear to Nicky [in the year following his abdication] that the Monarchy was finished as a viable instrument of government for Russia?   Did not his love for Russia outweigh his love for the Monarchy---as much as he relished it?

Additionally, if---IF  the above addendum (concerning a replacement of Aleksey and one sister) were true, then obviously Nicky and Alix KNEW that  their own deaths were probably imminent.   Yes, Nicky and Alix and the family were willing to submit their case into the hands of God [maybe even being a bit praedestinarian in their theological dispositions],  but I am incredulous to believe that they would have permitted TWO innocents to take the place of their own children [ in this case Marie and Aleksey ].  For Heaven's sake, this family were God-Fearers [to use a Bible concept].

The original body death-assessment [in the basement] of each member of NAOTMAA was made clear . . . at least NUMERICALLY . . . if King and Wilson's bibliographical citations are accurate.   Ergo :  if THIS is true then,  there were 7 Imperial bodies, in addition to Trub, Dr Botkin and 2 others.  The Imperial body count suggests that either ALL of NAOTMAA died---OR at least that 5 of the REAL 7 Imperial Family members died with 2 replacements standing in for Aleksey and a sibling.  But, would the logistics of a vicarious swap, added to the ubiquitous Yakov Yurovsky's suspicious nature have permitted such a scheme to become a fete accompli?

By the way, I am open to correction and tweaking by people on this list--who undoubtedly possess more expertise in this area of discussion.  I am only a novice.

My 2 KOPEKS worth . . .   ^_^





Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Forum Admin on February 22, 2006, 03:16:35 PM
Major, Major, Major !

You have put logic and reason to the matter, and most admirably so. However, logic and reason seem to have little or no place in the discussion for most of those who are advocating survivors... ;D

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on February 26, 2006, 09:52:57 PM
Honestly, I don't think that, in the case that anyone might have survived, there would have been any need for "substitutes" for two of the children (i.e. Marie and Alexei).  It was vaguely possible that the two had somehow survived the shootings and not been alive enough to be noticed at the moment; the truck carrying the "corpses" was said to have stopped and been left unattended for a time at a railroad crossing (can anyone cross-check that?); and later, the leader, one Yurovsky, said that two bodies were burned (possibly a lame excuse for a discrepancy in the count at the time before his superiors showed up).

As unlikely as it is - I think this is the most likely of the unlikelies.

It'd be pretty nice though - the thought of any of the IF dying from such a brutal excuse for an "execution"...more like murder (which it was)...is rather sickening.  Some of them - especially Marie - were so innocent!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Maj. Jesse Cairns on February 27, 2006, 10:37:30 AM
Blimey . . . London-to-a-Brick that  I've been rebuked by the bloomin' Forum Admin!!   ;)   ;D

So what's the moral of the story?  Never, never obfuscate the  intelligensia with logical paradigms and polemical consistency.
I should have been more nebulous and fuzzy  ;D   ;)     *just kidding  just kidding*
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 27, 2006, 11:12:29 AM
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Honestly, I don't think that, in the case that anyone might have survived, there would have been any need for "substitutes" for two of the children (i.e. Marie and Alexei).  It was vaguely possible that the two had somehow survived the shootings and not been alive enough to be noticed at the moment; the truck carrying the "corpses" was said to have stopped and been left unattended for a time at a railroad crossing (can anyone cross-check that?); and later, the leader, one Yurovsky, said that two bodies were burned (possibly a lame excuse for a discrepancy in the count at the time before his superiors showed up).

As unlikely as it is - I think this is the most likely of the unlikelies.

It'd be pretty nice though - the thought of any of the IF dying from such a brutal excuse for an "execution"...more like murder (which it was)...is rather sickening.  Some of them - especially Marie - were so innocent!

I agree here.

However, I think it would be twice as sickening if some innocent substitute died in place of a member of the Imperial family.

(I'm not saying the children weren't innocent...but can anyone see my point here?)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Maj. Jesse Cairns on February 27, 2006, 12:41:50 PM
Survivors thread  ;

I need some help here.  I--like so many on this discussion forum, have read so much Factual stuff and then also supplemented it with historical fiction that oft it can run together.    I read that after the entire I.F. were pronounced dead that in the process of moving the bodies to the truck that one of two of the bodies came to and began to scream like banchees :o  and further unnerving the spooked and almost shattered group of volunteer shooters.  
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on February 27, 2006, 02:24:46 PM
Quote
I agree here.

However, I think it would be twice as sickening if some innocent substitute died in place of a member of the Imperial family.


Oh I wasn't saying that it's better that they had "subs" than be killed themselves...I mean it would be better if, assuming that anyone had survived, they had done so without help from the outside - at least not until the survivor(s) had already done the 'surviving' of the initial 'execution'.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on February 27, 2006, 05:06:59 PM
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Survivors thread  ;

I need some help here.  I--like so many on this discussion forum, have read so much Factual stuff and then also supplemented it with historical fiction that oft it can run together.    I read that after the entire I.F. were pronounced dead that in the process of moving the bodies to the truck that one of two of the bodies came to and began to scream like banchees :o  and further unnerving the spooked and almost shattered group of volunteer shooters.  


There is a story that claims one female (presumably a GDss) sat up and screamed.  A more accurate account is given in FOTR which states one GD stirred, moaned/gasped and covered her face with her hands while another, apparently bleeding from her mouth, began to make gutteral noises (I surmise from a collapsed lung, she was drowning in her own blood).  Take these stories with a large pinch of salt.  There's been a lot of discussion on the Final Chapter Board about this recently.  
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 27, 2006, 06:38:50 PM
Quote

Oh I wasn't saying that it's better that they had "subs" than be killed themselves...I mean it would be better if, assuming that anyone had survived, they had done so without help from the outside - at least not until the survivor(s) had already done the 'surviving' of the initial 'execution'.

Oh I see. I think I misunderstood your post or something. ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on March 01, 2006, 10:35:29 AM
Quote

There is a story that claims one female (presumably a GDss) sat up and screamed.  A more accurate account is given in FOTR which states one GD stirred, moaned/gasped and covered her face with her hands while another, apparently bleeding from her mouth, began to make gutteral noises (I surmise from a collapsed lung, she was drowning in her own blood).  Take these stories with a large pinch of salt.  There's been a lot of discussion on the Final Chapter Board about this recently.  


As unpleasant as that is, it is very helpful to clear this up.  I'm not saying that it wholly denies any possibility of survival on any of the IF's part, but it does limit those possibilities.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on March 01, 2006, 11:53:16 AM
Quote

As unpleasant as that is, it is very helpful to clear this up.  I'm not saying that it wholly denies any possibility of survival on any of the IF's part, but it does limit those possibilities.



I put the evidence together in my head more than once, and every time I reached the conclusion that no one could have survived that night.  Technically, someone could have been alive when they were pulled from the basement but their injuries were extensive and they would have been in the process of dying.  Remember, death (despite what the media shows) is not an instant thing.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on March 01, 2006, 10:46:40 PM
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I put the evidence together in my head more than once, and every time I reached the conclusion that no one could have survived that night.  Technically, someone could have been alive when they were pulled from the basement but their injuries were extensive and they would have been in the process of dying.  Remember, death (despite what the media shows) is not an instant thing.

I know, very well, that people can die from sustained wounds long after the actual injury occurs; but I still think it's possible...just because someone is in the process of dying, though, does not mean that they are necessarily going to die.  In fact, I don't recall which board this was on, but one story - by a German man staying in Yekaterinburg at the time - claims that he had seen the family from his second story window the day before the executions; and that night, he arrived back at the inn (I believe it was an inn) and was told that a badly wounded girl (possibly Anastasya or Marie?) was up in his room receiving care/resting.

This is somewhat questionable, but from the account, it sounds highly credible at the same time.  I'm not saying that I believe absolutely that someone survived, but if one of them did escape (even while dying), they could have been found by a friendly/civilian and, if not fully healed, had the bleeding staunched, etc.

Can anyone verify this?  I know I read it on this site, but now I can't find the bloody thread again...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on March 02, 2006, 05:53:43 AM
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I know, very well, that people can die from sustained wounds long after the actual injury occurs; but I still think it's possible...just because someone is in the process of dying, though, does not mean that they are necessarily going to die.  In fact, I don't recall which board this was on, but one story - by a German man staying in Yekaterinburg at the time - claims that he had seen the family from his second story window the day before the executions; and that night, he arrived back at the inn (I believe it was an inn) and was told that a badly wounded girl (possibly Anastasya or Marie?) was up in his room receiving care/resting.

This is somewhat questionable, but from the account, it sounds highly credible at the same time.  I'm not saying that I believe absolutely that someone survived, but if one of them did escape (even while dying), they could have been found by a friendly/civilian and, if not fully healed, had the bleeding staunched, etc.

Can anyone verify this?  I know I read it on this site, but now I can't find the bloody thread again...



How could they have been found by a friendly civilian? How would that happen? If one of the girls had managed to roll off the cart during the approximate 20 minutes it was left unattended, they would have been found by one of the guards.  No civilians were allowed into the forest; the guards were on horseback and chased anyone who came into sight away from the scene.

ALL of the girls were shot and bayoneted repeatedly.  There is some discussion, as Tsarina_Liz has already pointed out, of two girls being alive enough to make noises and slight movements after the execution, but they would have been so severely injured that there was no hope of them making it.  They may not have died immediately, but by the time they got to the mines, they would certainly have been dead. There's just no possibility that anyone could have survived those injuries enough to get out of the cart, crawl away unseen, be found by someone and then nursed back to health.

As for this man being told a badly wounded girl was receiving treatment in his room, I think this is highly improbable for several reasons.

1. As I have already explained, there would have been no chance of a civilian coming across one of the GDs with the guards surrounding the area.

2. As I have also already explained, the GDs were fatally wounded and they would have not survived much beyond the execution room even if they made movements afterwards; they were already dying.

3. Even if those two above points were not being taken into consideration, the idea of a rescuer bringing one of the GDs to a house OPPOSITE the Ipatiev House is ridiculous.  Surely they'd want to get her as far away as possible?

4. There are tons of stories about surviving GDs.  Trains being searched for Anastasia, sightings at train stations and so on.  My own personal theory is that the Bolshies encouraged these rumours to be spread to cover up the murder of the IF; it was in their interests to pretend that Alexandra and the girls had not been killed, as they were used as a bargaining tool with Germany long after they had been murdered.

There is ZERO chance someone escaped that murder room.  I'm sorry, but it's simply not possible.  One of the GDs is missing and Alexei is missing from the grave.  We know why this is; their bodies were burned.  If we use the fact that two bodies are missing as 'evidence' that they survived, we're also ignoring all of the evidence against this possibility.  Alexei had haemophilia.  He would have bled to death very quickly.  Marie was shot in the head.  She would not have lasted very long either.  So, using the fact their bodies are missing as 'proof' that they somehow survived is ridiculous.  Where would they have gone? How would they have got off the cart and sufficiently far away with their injuries? Why would only a GD be found and not Alexei?

This is the crux of the issue for me; people say 'a body of the GDs is missing so one must have survived'- everyone seems to forget that Alexei is missing too.  If a GD survived based on the missing body evidence, then Alexei must have survived too, following that logic.  Why no mention of him surviving? Why no search for him?

Simple answer: No one survived.  The missing GD and Alexei were burned.  We don't know where their bodies are, but they died that night and there is no question of that.  No one could survive the injuries they sustained, and I doubt that anyone could have done today either, with all of our medical advances.  As sad as it is to think that all of the family were wiped out, it's true, and it's about time all of these conspiracy theorists accepted that.  Either way, they'd all be dead by now anyway, so whether one survived or not, it doesn't make much difference, does it?

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on March 02, 2006, 02:25:55 PM
I wasn't saying that I fully believe this story by any means...I just posted it as a suggestion.  After all, we are here to discuss the "Question" of survivors...so surely it is a question.

I just thought that it might be a good thing to post just for the sake of argument...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on March 02, 2006, 04:28:21 PM
If someone had come out the room alive, they (as I said in a previous post) would have been at the least in the process of dying.  At that period in time, medicine was not advanced enough to deal with the extent of injuries the IF would have suffered or to have reversed the damage.  That's even assuming they would have been given medical attention.  Internal damages, bleeding out, infection.  These are very likely the fates awaiting anyone who survived the basement.  
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on March 07, 2006, 07:06:01 PM
Well, regardless, the missing skeleton's is most likely Marie's...so I'm willing to bet (well, not really) that if someone had survived, it was she and not Anastasia as previously thought.

I know quite clearly that although Alexei's skeleton is missing, he was a hemophiliac and thus couldn't have survived anyways, which logically means that the sole absence of the skeleton does not dictate survival.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on March 08, 2006, 04:26:16 AM
Quote
Well, regardless, the missing skeleton's is most likely Marie's...so I'm willing to bet (well, not really) that if someone had survived, it was she and not Anastasia as previously thought.


Well, that's your opinion, not fact.

Quote
I know quite clearly that although Alexei's skeleton is missing, he was a hemophiliac and thus couldn't have survived anyways, which logically means that the sole absence of the skeleton does not dictate survival.


Exactly.  Alexei could not possibly have survived very long, and neither could one of his sisters, not with their injuries.  There are numerous accounts of two bodies being burned.  Yes, they are not 100% reliable, they don't all tally and so on, but there is a general consensus that one male and one female body were separated from the rest, and we are missing one male and one female body.  That's your mystery solved right there.  People want to make conspiracy theories because conspiracy theories are more interesting than the truth, the truth being that everyone died that night.  People don't want to believe that, just like people don't want to believe that Diana, Princess of Wales' death was an accident.  It's too clean cut for these people.  They'll poke around until they find something slightly suspicious and then build a whole argument around it, ignoring all of the information that says otherwise.

If we say Maria/Anastasia survived, and that conclusion is arrived at because there is a body missing, then logically we would also have to say that Alexei survived, because his body is missing.  We know that Alexei could not have survived his injuries for any length of time because of his illness, therefore the 'missing body = survival' logic is fatally flawed and null and void.

No one survived.  No, we cannot say that 'for sure' until we find the two missing bodies, but logically, that must be the accurate conclusion.  No one gets shot and bayonetted repeatedly, left for hours with no medical help and survives.  Perhaps they would have a slim chance today with our medical advances, but in 1918? No way.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on March 08, 2006, 03:47:16 PM
Quote

Well, that's your opinion, not fact.


Yes...perhaps I should have emphasized that it was my opinion, and not proven fact.

Thanks for out-logicking me.  I needed that.

:)

There are still the believers, though.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Nathalie on June 27, 2006, 02:57:16 PM
ookik..but basically can we know, WHY did yurovski burn those 2 bodies?
Not that I think anybody survived.. But I still ondt get it, why he just didn't bury them with the rest of the bodies?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on June 27, 2006, 04:04:48 PM
I think this was answered elsewhere perhaps ? However, the simple explanation was that ALL bodies were to be cremated. When the two smallest proved too difficult, that project was abandoned. The rest were disposed of otherwise.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on June 27, 2006, 04:14:42 PM
Quote
ookik..but basically can we know, WHY did yurovski burn those 2 bodies?
Not that I think anybody survived.. But I still ondt get it, why he just didn't bury them with the rest of the bodies?

Here are the things I have read, sorry no page numbers, much of it was found in these threads.

1 The Bolsheviks wanted to burn Alexei on a funeral pyre as a symbol the dynasty would not go on, since he had been the symbol that it would. He was not burning enough so someone suggested throwing another body on the fire.

2. The Bolsheviks suggested burning two of the bodies to throw off the trail of the whites in case they found the mass grave, since they'd be looking for a specific number, the parents and five kids, and this would be the wrong number. There is some dispute over which female it was, but of course they may not have known them well enough to tell them apart by name, and  being bloody and mangled, it  was hard to identify them anyway.

3. The original plan was to burn the bodies, but when they did not burn sufficiently to destroy the bodies to the degree they had hoped (total cremation) they tossed the charred remains into a swampy area and did what they did to the rest of them in the mass grave.

Though all of these stories are a bit different, the main result is there seems to be an underlying recurring theme which makes me believe there was something to the story that 2 bodies were burned. Where there's smoke, there's fire, forgive the tasteless pun. Each man may have remembered or told the story differently, but I think there is definitely enough to go on to believe that burning of two bodies did occur. Everything else they told us has turned out to be true, why not this?

You might want to post this in the 'final chapter' section, they deal in more detail with the execution and body disposal over there.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 04, 2006, 07:01:16 PM
There were more han 40 people who claimed to have seen Anastasia after the hour which the CHEKA claimed she was executed on the night of 16/17 July 1918.  One, in fact, testitifed in AA' s  trial.  He was Dr. Utkin.  There were about 40 other testimonies which tell us that others saw Anastasia after 16/17 July 1918.   Sokolov failed to mention nearly all of these testimonies in his book.

If someone helped Anastasia and Alexei off the truck while upstairs Yurovsky was raking the guards over the coals because they had stolen things off the bodies,  they might well have taken them to a nearby house.  Not everyone in Ekaterinburg were the enemy of the Romanovs.  There were a number of rescuers in the town....  The Germans were close because they had a plot to rescue the Romanovs that same night....  There were Whites who had also plotted a rescue and were near by....  There were Independents hoping to  he heros for their Tsar who were near....  Some of the guards held sympathy for the Romanovs and one or more may have saved/ tried to save the two missing Romanovs.....

No civilian was allowed in the forest????

There were civilians in the forest.  I recall two people had been fishing and were walking on the road...  This road was heavly traveled by locals taking their fish, etc. to market in town early in those morning hours....

There was the mysterious White officer Sheremetevsky who was moving around with some of the men from the Koptyaki village...

The White army wasn't that far away and some may have been around this area that night as well....

Let us not forget all those men that were in Ermakov's bunch who were dispersed....  Do we have any idea who all of them were?  Do we even have a number of how many there were?

Yurovsky did set up boundaries at various times and locals were told to stay out of those boundaries as the night became morning.

Bodies of five recently killed Letts were found by the White near the Four Brother's Mine around the 26th of July....

As to the injuries of the two who are missing,  we don't know for certain what the injuries were, so, we do not know if one or both were able to get off the truck, if that is what they did, on their own or with help, while the truck was stopped on the road....

As for the two bodies being burned, well, we have several problems with this part of Yurovsky's story.  The most important problem is:  No one can find these bodies where he said they would be which was near the mass grave.   The next problem is the fact that first he thought th female body was Alexandra's, then he thought the body had been Demidov but it was not either of these women who were older than 50.  It was one of the grand duchesses.  People try to make claim that it was a honest mistake by the CHEKA since the bodies were bloated, out of shape and the faces smashed.  Untrue.  Experts tell us that this was not true.  And,  Yurovsky, if you want to believe his story,  tells us that the faces were not smashed until just before the nine bodies were placed in the mass grave.

Because all of the eleven are probably dead in 2006 does not mean we have to just let the truth of what really happen just slip away.

Because I don't agree with Rachel and others who believe that anyone surviving was not possible doesn't mean I'm a conspirator who hopes to prove Maria or Anastasia or Alexei or any of Nicholas II's  children survived that night.

If Maria had escaped, I'd think it was possible,  that she ran away with the young guard on Maria's birthday.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 04, 2006, 08:32:32 PM
I have decided that none of the IF nor their retainers were murdered that night at the Ipatiev House. There was instead an agreement with the squeamish Bolsheviks that they live out the remainder of their lives secretly in the forest. To insure that the secret was never revealed the family and retainers were interned in the same mass grave as they died of natural causes over next few decades. There was one problem with this arrangement however in that Aleksei relocated to the outskirts of Katmandu were he studied eastern religion until he died of pneumonia. His body was disposed of in the traditional Nepali manner. Maria also broke the agreement and lived out her life in the far reaches of Amazonia marrying a native with a large lip plate and having many children skilled at killing monkeys and at collecting poisonous frogs for arrow making. Maria lived a long life despite constant bouts of malaria. She was cremated on a pyre in the center of the stone age village that she loved so much.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on July 05, 2006, 09:34:02 AM
That's very interesting, I never heard that theory but it is entirely plausible!

I did hear, however, that when Anastasia fled the execution that night, the Bolshevik sent into the forest to kill her just couldn't do it, so he killed a wild boar instead and brought back the heart in a box  to try to prove she was dead. Because this heart was all they had, the other Bolsheviks tossed it onto the mass grave but it deteriorated over time and was not there when the skeletons were found. Anastasia settled deep in the forest with seven little mine workers, but after they were killed in the civil war, she set out again and found a large empty castle. Going upstairs to explore, she accidently pricked her finger on a spinning wheel needle and feel into a deep sleep. Today the castle is obscured by thick overbrush and thorns, but once a hundred years is up in 2018, they will magically part and a handsome prince will ride in on a white stallion, kiss her, and she will awaken and live happily ever after.

Alexei was being hauled east in a cart pulled by Alexander Rachmaninoff, but they were lured by the pied piper into the side of an open mountain where time stands still. If this magical land can be found, all will again be right with the world.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 05, 2006, 10:46:46 AM
And it is generally not known that Olga ended up a "party hostess" in an underground nightclub in Berlin. Living quite comfortably even through the end of WWII by selling looted Nazi artwork to American GIs.
 Tatiana became a fancy dancer in Shanghai, but we do not talk much about that.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 05, 2006, 03:08:47 PM
Quote
And it is generally not known that Olga ended up a "party hostess" in an underground nightclub in Berlin. Living quite comfortably even through the end of WWII by selling looted Nazi artwork to American GIs.
 Tatiana became a fancy dancer in Shanghai, but we do not talk much about that.


I suppose until all four skeletons are compared after the missing remains are found,  we cannot be possitive as to which grand duchess is missing.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alixz on July 06, 2006, 09:55:48 AM
Okeydokey:  Back to the original topic.  I see the question of a suvivor (or two) in our time as more a question of survivors descendents that of the actual survivor.  Of course all survivors would now be dead from old age.

On the other topic.  In 1918 medicine had not yet advanced enough to have anibiotics or penicillin or to separate the clotting factor from whole blood which is needed to help a hemopheliac stop bleeding.

However many soldiers severely injured during the Great War did survive and were treated with the techology of the day. These soldiers were shot and bayoneted and blown up and gased. Their faces were shot off and beaten off.  Their jaws and noses were totaly gone from their faces.  In short they suffered the same fate as the Romanovs.

I just don't know if the treatment that saved the soldiers could be done for the Romanovs in a small room in Ekaterinburg.  But these soldiers were treated and did survive the exact same kind of injuries.

Just for thought, perhaps taking two of the "bodies" across the street would be an option.  It is sometimes best to "hide in plain sight".

And remember that no matter how bad Alexis's bleeding episodes were he always bounced back.  As I mentioned in another thread, I have always wondered if Rasputin had the power to "heal" Alexis or Alexis had the power to "heal" himself.  He did quite well without Rasputin after 1916.

Ok  I am reaching here.  I just don't ever close doors.  Two bodies are missing.  From what I read, I think they are Anastasia and Alexis.   Just my humble, yet well read opinion.  Why Yurovsky thought that the female was Alexandra or Demidova...who knows???  Just another way to throw investigaters off the track??

I am not a conspsiracy theorist.  So please don't inundate me with "stories" of African Tribes and "exotic" dancers.  Or UFOs for that matter.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 06, 2006, 11:46:41 AM
There is a great difference between a soldier wounded on the battlefield and surviving his wounds and a member of the Imperial Family being wounded and surviving, the difference being that when a soldier is wounded or killed in combat it is a random action, no one in the opposing army had a  plan to kill Pvt. John Smith in particular, just kill an enemy soldier and if one survives the attack so be it. The Imperial Family on the other hand were chosen victims who were know to all of the executioners. The purpose for taking them into the cellar was to kill them. Kill each and everyone of them. This action on behalf of the Bolsheviks was seriously planed to achieve one end, the death of the Imperial Family, hence the closed space and the large number of well armed executioners.

No one survived.

David
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 06, 2006, 11:59:37 AM
No one survived-
EXCEPT, a pet dog, whose direct descendant, Pushkina, was presented to Caroline Kennedy as apuppy from the Soviet space doggie !
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 06, 2006, 01:36:16 PM
If Marie escaped with the friendly guard on her birthday,  she would not have been part of the execution.

Just because the CHEKA, the Ural Soviets, the Moscow Soviets, later the GPU, KGB and communists repeated a story they want us to believe, doesn't mean it's true.  In fact, we know for certain some of the testimony isn't true.  How much of their testimony is the truth is NOT known.

So, tell me what proof do you have that Marie was in the Ipatiev House after that date 27 June [O.S./ 3 July N.S.] 1918?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alixz on July 06, 2006, 05:03:38 PM
Quote
There is a great difference between a soldier wounded on the battlefield and surviving his wounds and a member of the Imperial Family being wounded and surviving, the difference being that when a soldier is wounded or killed in combat it is a random action, no one in the opposing army had a  plan to kill Pvt. John Smith in particular, just kill an enemy soldier and if one survives the attack so be it. The Imperial Family on the other hand were chosen victims who were know to all of the executioners. The purpose for taking them into the cellar was to kill them. Kill each and everyone of them. This action on behalf of the Bolsheviks was seriously planed to achieve one end, the death of the Imperial Family, hence the closed space and the large number of well armed executioners.

No one survived.

David

The difference being if one survives or not is in the planning?  Tell that to Yurovsky who planned to kill each with one shot to the heart and, well we know how well that plan went.  Tell that to the Grand Duchesses who didn't die immediately and suffered intensely by being shot in the legs because the air was so thick with smoke that the executioners couldn't see to shoot any higher.
Tell that to those who moaned and or sat up in the truck and were then bludgened to death.

David, forgive me, you know that I have the greatest respect for you and your knowledge.  You have probably forgotten more than I will ever know.  I am just tired enough and cranky enough today to spar with you.

Actually, I was agravated by all of the little "cute" stories that others threw in.  I didn't find them at all amusing.

When I mentioned "a little room in Ekaterinburg" I meant if someone had spirited two bodies across the street or to any other safe place and tended to them not the murder room.  My example of soldiers surviving their injuries was simply to show that someone could survive such terrible injuries.

I believe that the Russians wanted the other body to be Marie to stop the Anastasia stories.  I was exasperated by the measurement analysis of all the remains.  I was also exasperated by the non cooperation between the various teams.

However if Marie did escape earlier in the captivity as some here have conjectured wouldn't Yurovsky have covered that up by saying that he burned two bodies?  And wouldn't her escape have been another good reason to kill the entire family and not just Nicholas?  How on earth would he have expxained that to Lenin and Moscow.  Lucky Marie if she did escape and poor Marie if she did.  Imagine living with that on your conscience for the rest of your life.  You escaped with your life and your family has now been killed because of it.

With all of the confusion and the disinformation and the stupidity of that night (it was like three ring circus gone bad), how can anyone be certain of anything?  How can anyone then or now stand up and say anything with any degree of certainty?

I just refuse to close any door until the room is empty.  Remember that when all the evidence has been sorted through and discarded whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth (bad interpretation of a Sherlock Holmes quote).


Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2006, 07:51:46 PM
Quote
No one survived-
EXCEPT, a pet dog, whose direct descendant, Pushkina, was presented to Caroline Kennedy as apuppy from the Soviet space doggie !

Which dog was this? Because you said "Soviet" I assume you mean the dog remained in Russia? I know Joy was rescued by a member of the British Counsulate but he lived out his last ten years in England and never returned to Soviet territory. If another dog survived, I'd like to hear the story.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 06, 2006, 08:35:07 PM
Annie, WHAT IF Joy had puppies BEFORE being brought to England ? Everyone else here is making up stories out of conjecture....
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 06, 2006, 09:13:05 PM
Quote
David, forgive me, you know that I have the greatest respect for you and your knowledge.  You have probably forgotten more than I will ever know.  I am just tired enough and cranky enough today to spar with you.

Alixz,

I can assure you that you are correct about what I have forgotten or maybe more exactly what has been misplaced in my mind (and found from time to time).

As for the topic, I am just so weary of it. So much wasted energy is devoted to it when it could be put toward something productive. I told Robert Hall a day or so ago that I was just about to start a new topic: What if Jemmy and Ortino Survived? but I decided that the not so subtle underlying intent of this farcical topic would elude most the people who post here. I am at a loss for words.

David
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on July 07, 2006, 12:42:50 AM
Quote
Annie, WHAT IF Joy had puppies BEFORE being brought to England ? Everyone else here is making up stories out of conjecture....


Oh, but how could we be sure they were actually Joy's pups, they may just have been lookalikes, the same eyes, snout, maybe, but with no DNA we can'r prove it and there were no tests in those days. OF course if there were, they could have been switched! Or maybe the pups were switched at birth!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 07, 2006, 01:42:17 AM
Annie,

You have missed an obvious point of discussion here, was the sire of the puppies of equal birth to Joy and if  he was not, would the puppies born of this unequal union have been Imperial Puppies or some new branch of Morganatic Puppies descended from an Imperial Pet?

Do we know if an Emperor or Empress ever issued an Ukaz raising a pet to the ranks of the pet-ty nobility?

David
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alixz on July 07, 2006, 09:23:19 AM
Quote
Annie,

You have missed an obvious point of discussion here, was the sire of the puppies of equal birth to Joy and if  he was not, would the puppies born of this unequal union have been Imperial Puppies or some new branch of Morganatic Puppies descended from an Imperial Pet?

Do we know if an Emperor or Empress ever issued an Ukaz raising a pet to the ranks of the pet-ty nobility?

David

David: Today I am not so tired and not so cranky.  As I said yesterday, I always respect you but today I love you  ::)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 07, 2006, 10:22:42 AM
Quote
If Marie escaped with the friendly guard on her birthday,  she would not have been part of the execution.

Just because the CHEKA, the Ural Soviets, the Moscow Soviets, later the GPU, KGB and communists repeated a story they want us to believe, doesn't mean it's true.  In fact, we know for certain some of the testimony isn't true.  How much of their testimony is the truth is NOT known.

So, tell me what proof do you have that Marie was in the Ipatiev House after that date 27 June [O.S./ 3 July N.S.] 1918?

AGRBear

It appears, no one has proof that Marie was in the Ipatiev House after 27 June/3 July.

Was Marie's disapearance the  reason Lenin sent Yurovsky to take command of the IF?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 07, 2006, 10:25:51 AM
Quote
Quote
There is a great difference between a soldier wounded on the battlefield and surviving his wounds and a member of the Imperial Family being wounded and surviving, the difference being that when a soldier is wounded or killed in combat it is a random action, no one in the opposing army had a  plan to kill Pvt. John Smith in particular, just kill an enemy soldier and if one survives the attack so be it. The Imperial Family on the other hand were chosen victims who were know to all of the executioners. The purpose for taking them into the cellar was to kill them. Kill each and everyone of them. This action on behalf of the Bolsheviks was seriously planed to achieve one end, the death of the Imperial Family, hence the closed space and the large number of well armed executioners.

No one survived.

David

The difference being if one survives or not is in the planning?  Tell that to Yurovsky who planned to kill each with one shot to the heart and, well we know how well that plan went.  Tell that to the Grand Duchesses who didn't die immediately and suffered intensely by being shot in the legs because the air was so thick with smoke that the executioners couldn't see to shoot any higher.
Tell that to those who moaned and or sat up in the truck and were then bludgened to death.

David, forgive me, you know that I have the greatest respect for you and your knowledge.  You have probably forgotten more than I will ever know.  I am just tired enough and cranky enough today to spar with you.

Actually, I was agravated by all of the little "cute" stories that others threw in.  I didn't find them at all amusing.

When I mentioned "a little room in Ekaterinburg" I meant if someone had spirited two bodies across the street or to any other safe place and tended to them not the murder room.  My example of soldiers surviving their injuries was simply to show that someone could survive such terrible injuries.

I believe that the Russians wanted the other body to be Marie to stop the Anastasia stories.  I was exasperated by the measurement analysis of all the remains.  I was also exasperated by the non cooperation between the various teams.

However if Marie did escape earlier in the captivity as some here have conjectured wouldn't Yurovsky have covered that up by saying that he burned two bodies?  And wouldn't her escape have been another good reason to kill the entire family and not just Nicholas?  How on earth would he have expxained that to Lenin and Moscow.  Lucky Marie if she did escape and poor Marie if she did.  Imagine living with that on your conscience for the rest of your life.  You escaped with your life and your family has now been killed because of it.

With all of the confusion and the disinformation and the stupidity of that night (it was like three ring circus gone bad), how can anyone be certain of anything?  How can anyone then or now stand up and say anything with any degree of certainty?

I just refuse to close any door until the room is empty.  Remember that when all the evidence has been sorted through and discarded whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth (bad interpretation of a Sherlock Holmes quote).



Alixz, some good points.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Forum Admin on July 07, 2006, 10:39:50 AM
Quote
Quote
If Marie escaped with the friendly guard on her birthday,  she would not have been part of the execution.

Just because the CHEKA, the Ural Soviets, the Moscow Soviets, later the GPU, KGB and communists repeated a story they want us to believe, doesn't mean it's true.  In fact, we know for certain some of the testimony isn't true.  How much of their testimony is the truth is NOT known.

So, tell me what proof do you have that Marie was in the Ipatiev House after that date 27 June [O.S./ 3 July N.S.] 1918?

AGRBear

It appears, no one has proof that Marie was in the Ipatiev House after 27 June/3 July.


AGRBear

It appears, no one has proof that Marie was NOT in the Ipatiev House after then either. So please start bringing in genuine evidence beyond mere supposition.  Please go back to ALL the first hand sources, including those depositions from the guards who where THERE that night and before, who were appalled at the executions, calling them "butchers" and who got sick at the sight of the dead bodies being dragged out of the house, so much so that they fled their posts in the face of severe punishment for doing so.

Enough Fairy tales Bear. Bring on the EVIDENCE or take it to "having fun".
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 07, 2006, 10:58:55 AM
[size=16]Three cheers for the Forum Administrator![/size]


[smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]       [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]       [smiley=2vrolijk_08.gif]  
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alixz on July 07, 2006, 06:33:08 PM
Actually FA a great many of those "cute" little stories that I mentioned in a former post should also be relagated to the "having fun" section.

A good many posters were having way too much "fun" at others' expense.  That was why, I because I was so tired and cranky, that I chose to spar with David.

But with all due respect I will now  :-X
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 08, 2006, 09:18:56 AM
Where shall  I start?

Obviously, FA and others do not wish to continue the subject of Marie escaping with Ivan S. on her birtday.

So, for the sake of this discussion being able to continue,  let's assume Marie was gone with Ivan for a time, they returned, and a huge "to-do" was made of this event which caused Avdayev being replaced with the new commandant Yurovsky in the Ipatiev House.

So, let us turn our attention to the night of the execution, 16/17 July 1918.  

Was it possible for Marie, and not Anastasia, to have escaped that night?

Working With Fact #1-
There are reports from eye wittnesses who claim some of the grand duchesses were still alive as the truck drove away from the Ipatiev House.


 The Alexander Palace Forum › Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty › The Question of Survivors  
 "Did any of the Romanovs survive? (Read 18896 times)"

      Re: Did any of the Romanovs survive?
Reply #83 - Jun 14th, 2004, 9:23pm   Quote:
briello 14 wrote:

Quote

[...in part...]

Quote
>>After 20 minutes, the job still wasn't done: "When they laid one of the daughters on the stretcher, she cried out and covered her face with her arm. The others [the daughters] also turned out to be alive. We couldn't shoot anymore with the open doors the shots could have been heard on the street.” .... <<
 
I read this quote recently in an article titled: "The Mystery of the Romanov Bones" from a Vanity Fair issue dated from 1993. Does anyone think that the possibility of one of the daughters escaping was possible, based on this quote?

Following this post will be another post with  a quote from Greg King about this quote in Vanity Fair.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 08, 2006, 09:46:06 AM
 Did any of the Romanovs survive is found at
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/YaBB.cgi?num=1074956237/0#0

Greg King said in post #92
Quote
The actual quote is from the statement by Alexander Strekotin, a member of the guard (not a shooter) who observed this.  Strekotin's statement remained concealed in the Party Provincial Archives in Sverdlovsk until 1990, whereas stories of survival began to circulate within weeks of the murder.
 
Greg King

AGRBear

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on July 08, 2006, 11:08:58 AM
Bear, your ideas about Maria escaping with the boyfriend would make a very good fanfiction story. There is all kinds of fanfic out there on lots of subjects. In Star Wars fanfic, what if Anakin didn't turn to the dark side? What if he didn't get burned on Mustafar? What if Padme didn't die? These are all very interesting and fun things for SW fans to explore and play around with, but the movie shows us those things did happen. History has shown us the true sad and tragic story of the Romanovs, and if you want to play a 'what if' fun guessing game, I would have to agree with FA this belongs in having fun.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on July 08, 2006, 11:30:35 AM
Here you go, bear, how about this?

The cake was eaten, and the family retired to their quarters, all except for Maria. Melancholy and feeling quite bitter, she sobbed softly to herself as she pondered her own mortality. "Is this my last birthday?" She wondered to herself. Finding a door unguarded, she slipped outside. It was so nice to feel the brisk evening breeze, this was something she had missed so much in captivity. She gazed upward at the stars, so clear and bright on a velvet sky. The moon was almost full, and bright enough to illuminate the ground below, and to glisten off her hair in a beautiful reflection. This is what Ivan saw as he approached.
Startled by the shadow and the sudden movement, Maria quickly turned and gasped.
"It's only me." He whispered as her shocked expression turned to a smile.
"Oh, Ivan..."
"What are you doing out here? How did you..?"
"You aren't going to tell, are you?"
"Of course not."
"Thank you."
"Is something troubling you?'
Maria lowered her head and tried to contain her sobs and tearing eyes, to no avail. "Ivan, I was thinking, today was my birthday, and it was so nice. I am 19 years old. Is this all that I will get? Will I ever have a life, be an old lady, or will I die here?"
"No, don't say that."
"But it's true." She whispered in heaves. "I can't imagine they're going to let us live. I often laugh at Olga as she writes poetry of Christian martyrdom, she is convinced we shall all die, but, maybe she's right and I am just pretending to hide my feelings. I think that's what Anastasia is doing, she's always making jokes, but it's only to hide her fear of the inevitable.."
"The inevitable being..."
"Our deaths. And very soon."
Looking deeply into her dark blue saucerlike eyes, he felt a connection. "I feel that way too."
"You? No one is going to shoot you."
"Don't be so sure. I could be taken out and shot at anytime by them for displeasing them, or even being rumored of disobeying orders. Or I could easily be killed in battle in the civil war that's going on. I too feel my own mortality, and a bitterness at the youth I have lost and the life I will never see."
"You do? Oh, Ivan it's so good to be able to share this with someone who understands."
A sad but satisfied smile crossed his lips as she bend and buried her head on his shoulder as she sobbed quietly. He reached a nervous hand to pat her back in a comforting hug.
"Don't make me go back inside, Ivan. I don't want this moment to end, I don't want to be in there, I don't want to....die."
"I won't let anyone hurt you, Maria!"
"How can you stop it? They'll kill you for trying to help us."
He stared at her and held her shoulders steady as he told her his plan. "I can't save you all, there is no way I can get the whole family and your entourage out of here unnoticed. But we have our chance, if you are willing to go, now."
"What? No, I cannot leave my family, Mama and Papa would be heartbroken, I'd miss my sisters, poor Alexei would cry..."
"Look around you, Maria Nicholaievna. The chance to make a break is before us, but this window of opportunity willl close quickly. If we are to flee, we must do it, now, with only the clothes we now wear,  and the dreams in our hearts, but we cannot look back!"
Maria cried and shook her head. "I cannot!"
"You must! We can go far away from here, live under false names, maybe even leave Russia, Maria, we're going to live!"
"But what of the rest of them? I love my family!"
"They love you, too, and I know they'd want you to save yourself if you could."
"I suppose you're right. I'd want the same for any of them as well."
"Then you'll do it?"
"Will you? You risk execution for helping me, or even for deserting alone!"
"I believe I will die anyway if I stay, so I might as well give it a try and make a run for my life. Whatever happens out there cannot be worse than here. Are you coming with me?"
She cautiously shook her head. He dried her tears. "Happy Birthday, Maria." He said softly, prompting a halfhearted smile of mixed emotions. He took her by the hand, and together they turned their backs on the Ipatiev house and walked off into the night. Maria glanced once back over her shoulder, blowing a kiss to her family. For a moment, she stopped and stared. "We must go, now, hurry." He told her, pulling her gently by the arm. "Don't look back. Look ahead. Look at the stars."
She turned her head up and glanced at the stars, sparkling, even dancing overhead, beckoning her on to freedom, happiness, and life itself. She turned to Ivan and smiled, he winked, and they slipped away into the night.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 08, 2006, 03:55:49 PM
Dear Annie,

What a lovely story. Do they live happily ever after?

If you dressed Fabio in a Russian uniform and put him on the cover of the book, I bet that Bear and like minded individuals would be the at the bookstore doors at opening time to buy a copy.

David
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 08, 2006, 04:12:31 PM
Quote
I have heard more than once that when the Romanov bodies where found, Russia wanted to make it seem as Mariahad survived. Is that possible?

This thread was started by Maria _ Romanov_fan, not I.  

I believe it was meant to discuss if Russia had intentionaly mislead us by telling us that Maria had survived and not GD Anastasia,  because Dr. Maples, our American forensic scientists, believed the missing skeleton was GD Anastasia and not GD Maria's.

In order to answer Maria_Romanov-fan's question,  one needs to discover information as to the possibility that it was GD Marie and not GD Anastasia.

Although I agree with Dr. Maples about the growth of bones which indicate the age of a skeleton,  I cannot say that the Russians were wrong.  It may well be that they have more information at their disposal about the execution then Dr. Maples and the rest of us have.

So,  standing back and taking a look at the evidence,  what can we find,  if Dr. Maples was wrong in his conclusion?

Like Maples said p. 264 DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES:

Quote
Is it conceivable that some kindhearted Bolshevik spirited them away?  Is it  thinkable that, despite their wounds, wounds that have been doubuly injurious to a hemophiliac like Alexei, the missing children lived, recovered their health and escaped to the West? Of course it is.  I merely say it is highly ulikely.  My experiences with murder, ancient and modern, makes it hard for me to believe in these far-fetched mercies.

Hard for him to believe.

Highly unnlikely.

But it's possible.

Sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

Course,  I don't know about Annie's story being closer to fiction or non-fiction, so, I'll refrain comment and  I'll let others be the judge :)


AGRBear





Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 08, 2006, 05:41:56 PM
Bear, MUST you repost ALL 5,029 of your posts ? Are you determined to set a record ?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on July 09, 2006, 05:40:07 PM
Quote
Dear Annie,

What a lovely story. Do they live happily ever after?

Thank you. I would like to think that they did.

Quote
If you dressed Fabio in a Russian uniform and put him on the cover of the book, I bet that Bear and like minded individuals would be the at the bookstore doors at opening time to buy a copy.

David

What a fantastic idea! I might try that.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on July 09, 2006, 06:21:00 PM
Wow, Annie.  That story explains everything.  ;)

Nice work actually.  I can't wait for your fictional AA book to come out!

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 10, 2006, 07:30:06 AM
Wonderful Annie! Do you think Ivan was able to keep Maria in the life style to which she was accustomed??? I don't think it could of been easy on those meagre wages  :-/ and then theirs the whole AA saga, Maria could have busted Anna Anderson nicely!!

 ;)

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 10, 2006, 10:33:17 AM
Quote
Quote
Dear Annie,

What a lovely story. Do they live happily ever after?

Thank you. I would like to think that they did.

Quote
If you dressed Fabio in a Russian uniform and put him on the cover of the book, I bet that Bear and like minded individuals would be the at the bookstore doors at opening time to buy a copy.

David

What a fantastic idea! I might try that.

When you take your story to a publisher and he tells you that this plot line was impossible,  let me give you some information which will help you convince the publisher that this story is based on various tetimonies which provide the possibility that it could have occured.

Start wtih Yurovsky's  recountment of a conversation he had with Father Ioann Storozhev.  It is found on p. 245 of THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson:

>>... [Yurovsky] recounted a conversation with Father Ioann Storozhev, who on July 14 came to the Ipatiev House to conduct a relgious service for the prisioners.  The prest, according to Yurovsky, was nervous.  Apparently he had somehow learned of the alleged incident, for he commented: "Before this all, we had never met such refined people.  Of course, one changes one's opinions, knowing what has happened.  It is already a great scandal over the situation.  But we a the Church are ready to forgive, and give a pass to an Imperial soul.  Storozhev's statement lends circumstantial support to the remark that the Church was "ready to forgive, and give a pass to an Imperial soul."  Not the  "imperial souls", but a singular reference, to one specific person involved in some "great scandal over the situation."

All this is reference to GD Maria and the guard Ivan.

Good luck, Annie, on your project.

As I have time,  I'll bring forth more information which will help you convince those who may not tend to agree with your story.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 10, 2006, 10:46:34 AM
Quote
Wonderful Annie! Do you think Ivan was able to keep Maria in the life style to which she was accustomed??? I don't think it could of been easy on those meagre wages  :-/ and then theirs the whole AA saga, Maria could have busted Anna Anderson nicely!!

 ;)


Annie have the happy couple migr. to the USA, because it is a known fact that here in the USA even the poorest of the poor can become billonaires.   Good example is the book "Kitchen Boy", who with a few bobbles,  was able to make a good life for himself.  

If Annie's story is based on just the fact they were never ablel to leave Russia then  she'll have to fall back on theme of  "true love" so  money would never have been a problem.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 10, 2006, 11:14:34 AM
On a more serious note, since this thread has not been exiled to the "fun"  place, yet,  let me add, as promised, some more information about the events around GD Maria and Ivan "vanishing act".

p. 245 THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson:

>>Faced with the passage of time and lack of documentary evidence, it is impossible to determine the extent of this incident, yet ther are solid reasons to believe that, in some form it did take place. The one source that should have recorded it, the guard duty book for th Special Detachment kept by Sidorov....<<

One place being if should have been was  the guard duty book for the Special Detachment kept by Sidorov.  What does it tell us about 27 June/ 3 July 1918???

p. 245  THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson:

>>...Sidorov, provides only silence; indeed in this methodical record of life in the Ipatiev House, entries for the period between June 24 and July 3 are frustratingly unavailable.  This lapse-- covering the crucial events following Berzin's inspection...<<

Gen. Berzin was asked by Lenin to go to Ekaterinburg to check out the rumor that Nicholas II had escaped and to make sure this was just a rumor as the Soviet Urals claimed.

King and Wilson continued:
>>...No similar gap exsists from May 13, when Sidorov assumed responsibility for its entries, to June 23.  Given Sidorov's meticulous habit of recording everything, even to the point, as on May 17, of writing, "No incidents took place or special reports made," is would have been extremely unlikely that nothing had been entered in the duty book during those volatile twleve days." Based on the pattern of Sidorov's entries for May and June, it defies lgoic that<< p. 246>> he suddenly would have abandoned his responsilities, particualarly at a time when crucial events were unfolding within the House of Special Prupose.  Therefore it is likely that these entries were removed from the record at some later date, after Sidorov was forced to turn over the duty took on July 4 to Yurovsky's assistant Gregory Nikulin.<<

Gotta run!

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Forum Admin on July 10, 2006, 02:54:20 PM
Ok
Let's review the best "evidence" Bear presented:
"Face (sic) with the passage of time and lack of documentary evidence, it is impossible to determine the extent of this incident"
"Sidorov, provides only silence; indeed in this methodicaly (sic) record of life in the Ipatiev House, entries for the period between June 24 and July 3 are furstratingly (sic) unavailable.."
"Storozhev's satement (sic) lends circumstantial support to the remark that the Church was "ready to forgive, and give a pass to an Imperial soul."  Not the  "imperial souls", but a singular reference, to one specific person involved in some "great scandal over the situation."

So, the best evidence is this:
Lack of documentary evidence. Silence. and an un-attributable statment from a nervous priest which at best could be circumstantial.  There is no reason to suggest what specific "event" the priest may have actually been referring to. Only speculation ties it to anything concrete.

Without anything more concrete, the subject is closed or to move to "Having fun".  Please stop quoting Greg and Penny's speculation as genuine evidence.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 28, 2006, 10:41:31 PM
There seems to be one upside to the recent software glitch that deleted so many of the posts, that being the fact that many of Bear's repetitive and obsessive missives have been removed from view. Can we hope to see a more thorough glitch in the future?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Rachael89 on July 29, 2006, 01:53:02 AM
That Glitch was NOT funny   :(. It deleted two of my threads and both had about 25 replies between them! I bet if you got two of your threads deleted you wouldn't be making cruel remarks about it (and yes I know your post is directed at Bear, but she isn't the only one to have postings deleted and, what you're saying in your post to her is cruel and unfair IMHO.)

Rachael

EDIT: Oh great, I've just read that they're all irretriviable now, back to the drawing board.....
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 29, 2006, 12:53:52 PM
I do not remember reading your posts Rachael, so I do not know if anything was really lost. I did loose a few posts that took some time to write, one took more than a few hours and involved my first experience deciphering the Polish language.

You are of course welcome to your opinions, cherish them as they are the only things that are truly yours but I am hardly the only person on this forum who has grown weary of the rantings of an obsessive. I have restrained myself for many months, even writing posts and then deleting them before posting.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 29, 2006, 12:56:41 PM
There seems to be one upside to the recent software glitch that deleted so many of the posts, that being the fact that many of Bear's repetitive and obsessive missives have been removed from view. Can we hope to see a more thorough glitch in the future?

May your day continue to have happy events.

  ;)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 29, 2006, 12:58:48 PM
Oh Bear you are just sooooooo sweet!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Rachael89 on July 29, 2006, 01:07:13 PM
I do not remember reading your posts Rachael, so I do not know if anything was really lost. I did loose a few posts that took some time to write, one took more than a few hours and involved my first experience deciphering the Polish language.

You are of course welcome to your opinions, cherish them as they are the only things that are truly yours but I am hardly the only person on this forum who has grown weary of the rantings of an obsessive. I have restrained myself for many months, even writing posts and then deleting them before posting.

I just feel abit sorry for Bear that's all, everyone always seems to be having a go at her. I often do what you do, I'll write something, then I'll decide that it's going to far and click the 'back' button, I think self-restraint is very important when using messageboards.

My posts weren't particular significant, one in the Final Chapter called 'Why burn two of the bodies' that had two pages of replies and one in the Books section called 'favourite Romanov bios' that had about 6 replies, but I still found the replies very interesting especially in the first thread I started. It is sad that you also lost posts, but I wonder how you would feel if someone said they wished it would happen again to delete more of your posts.

Rachael

Rachael
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 29, 2006, 01:17:46 PM
Rachael,

I learned long ago not to rely on the opinions of others to define my selfworth. I think what the glitch has taught all of us is to save our valued posts in a word document in case the entrie forum ever goes « puff ».

David
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Tania+ on July 29, 2006, 01:33:37 PM
Rachel,

I agree, our focus should be entirely on the threads, never to place any member to the focus of being made fun of. To do so only disables real communication and drags the mainstay of members into something we really should have no part of. Our personal issues on a person should stay just that, personal

One may chose to disagree with one's point of view, but to tear relentlessly at any member only takes away from our own self worth. I am glad to see that we have all, or are moving from that point enough to reflect on this new forum, to only address the issues of the subject matter.

As to the subjcet matter of Maria, etc. surviving, my head is still swimming at what is and what is not. I'm one of those elderly part of the russian community who still has grave reservations of the Communists and their long range projects then of what they wanted the people to believe, and what they did not want people to believe a 100 years later. I've learned that facts of what you think you have, may not be that at all....
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 29, 2006, 01:36:22 PM
Oh Bear you are just sooooooo sweet!

 This  honey does stick  to my fur....  Hmmmm,  slurp,  slurp...  good stuff.... Sweet and yummy   ::) ....

It seems some posters hadn't read  my earlier post and were confused as to what my intentions were.  Anyway,  it was established that I didn't believe that Marie ran off with the guard and at this time think Maples conclusion that the skeleton was too old to be Marie's is probably right.

Bear:
Quote
I believe it  [this thread] was meant to discuss if the Bolsheviks  had intentionaly mislead us by telling us that Maria had survived and not GD Anastasia,  because Dr. Maples, our American forensic scientists, believed the missing skeleton was GD Anastasia and not GD Maria's.
 

And,  I established I wasn't an expert on bones.  Nor do I claim to know everything that the Russians know and what they might know which we don't  may have swayed their conclusion.  

Since we don't know the answer,  can we find evidence that we've been "mislead",  I thought  I'd  post  parts of testimonies which may reveal  the  Bolsheviks might have tried to mislead us about the two missing bodies in 1918.   This would include Yurovsky's statement in 1920 after AA surfaced in Berlin which was written after AA claimed she was GD Anastasia who had escaped.

Well,  it was something like that  ;D

So,  once I explained why I was posting statements of the Bolsheviks which I thought might be part of the "misinformation",  most posters realized I wasn't trying to prove it was GD Marie who was missing and had escaped, and we were having an interesting discussion, or, at least I thought we were.


AGRBear


Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Rachael89 on July 29, 2006, 02:01:25 PM
Rachael,

I learned long ago not to rely on the opinions of others to define my selfworth. I think what the glitch has taught all of us is to save our valued posts in a word document in case the entrie forum ever goes « puff ».

David

I beleive that's what I'll do in future, especially if I write a long post!

Rachael

P.S. Anyway back tro the Maria discussion (what people are already getting back into.)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 31, 2006, 06:40:52 PM
I am pleased to see that no one, not even the main protagonist in this dreadful saga has posted on this topic again. I hope that this topic can now be declared dead just like the Grand Duchess Maria, may she rest in peace.

I do not agree with Tania, in that there comes a time when the sane must stand up to the muddled and say cease and desisit, no matter what "most precious" feelings are ruffled or otherwise disturbed.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 31, 2006, 07:37:25 PM
I'll returning with information  I posted which was lost.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 31, 2006, 07:59:53 PM
Was afraid you might.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 31, 2006, 08:08:43 PM
I have heard more than once that when the Romanov bodies where found, Russia wanted to make it seem as Mariahad survived. Is that possible?

I believe the question:  Why would Russia want to make it seem as if Marie had survived and not Anastasia?  is worth an investigation and some kind of answer.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 31, 2006, 08:28:26 PM
Ok, I'll play. Just which Russians and where did anyone say that Maria survived ? The only thing that has been asserted is that one GD  body is missing from the mass grave. That does not constitute survival. the bodies are accounted for, it is just which bodies ended up where is the question that seems to obsess some souls.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 31, 2006, 09:08:36 PM
Robert,

It is active engagement that encourages and validates this insanity. I really wish that the FA would delete The Question of Survivors and all of the posts good and bad, within it.

Not that long ago I offered my services as an editor to the FA, I proposed sorting through all of the nonsense on this forum and dumping sixty percent of the posts. My offer seems to have been ignored and instead we find ourselves knee deep in garbage posts, focusing now on the location of the best shashlik vendor in Pushkin, or the best store to find a Peter the Great action figure in the town formerly known as Tsarsko Selo. Unbelievable!

David
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 31, 2006, 09:12:13 PM
I have to agree, David.  Just could not resist the temptation for one last word. UNLIKE some posters. I now bow out, leave it to the bombasts.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on July 31, 2006, 11:36:46 PM
Here is the html text for the article in Volumn 285, Issue 1, Pages 15-32, Lev L Koesnikov, Gurge A. Pashinyan, and Sergey S. Abramov's report which includes photographs, sketches and why they think the missing body is GD Maria and not GD Anastasia.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/77502025/HTMLSTART
Published 2 March 2001.

The creator of this thread suggested that  the Bolsheviks want us to believe that GD Marie and not GD Anastasia whio is missing....

I had voiced I felt the Bolsheviks had been misdirecting us toward GD Marie since 17 July 1918. 

Let me clearify my position, again, I do not think that GD Marie survived, but, this isn't my thread, and, is part of the original question by this thread's creator..


AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 01, 2006, 01:20:38 AM
That this is not a thread of your origination does not absolve you from the responsibility of being the main character that kept this silly thread and many others like it alive. There is no need to play Devil's Advocate when there are already so many people willing, able and waiting to indulge themselves in historical fantasy about the Romanovs.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 01, 2006, 07:00:31 AM
I believe the question:  Why would Russia want to make it seem as if Marie had survived and not Anastasia?  is worth an investigation and some kind of answer.

Ahem. Why assume they WANT to make it seem like anyone survived? Instead of looking at this backwards, instead let's imagine the benefit of making it seem like Anastasia died. Namely, this: speculation has centered for years around the legend of Anastasia (not Maria) escaping. Perhaps the Russians are sick to death of Anastasia survival stories, too!

Imagine the conference:
"If I never hear another escape story about that youngest grand duchess..."

"Well, then let's prove to the world Anastasia's dead -- that'll shut 'em up!"


IMO, it's no less plausible than many other theories I've read... ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 01, 2006, 10:42:10 AM
I believe the question:  Why would Russia want to make it seem as if Marie had survived and not Anastasia?  is worth an investigation and some kind of answer.

Ahem. Why assume they WANT to make it seem like anyone survived? Instead of looking at this backwards, instead let's imagine the benefit of making it seem like Anastasia died. Namely, this: speculation has centered for years around the legend of Anastasia (not Maria) escaping. Perhaps the Russians are sick to death of Anastasia survival stories, too!

Imagine the conference:
"If I never hear another escape story about that youngest grand duchess..."

"Well, then let's prove to the world Anastasia's dead -- that'll shut 'em up!"


IMO, it's no less plausible than many other theories I've read... ;)


Yes, I agree, this could be one of the reasons.  It would be unfortunate if this was/is the case.  Why?  Covering up, fabrications and misdirections from the truth is never a good path to take.

In July of 1918, were the Bolshevik's capable of covering up, fabrications and misdirections?  Yes.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 01, 2006, 10:48:53 AM
That this is not a thread of your origination does not absolve you from the responsibility of being the main character that kept this silly thread and many others like it alive. There is no need to play Devil's Advocate when there are already so many people willing, able and waiting to indulge themselves in historical fantasy about the Romanovs.


I assume  FA will continue to permit the freedom of speech on this subject and others.

I see no reason not to dig into evidence and present both sides when a question arises.

AGRBear

PS  I just noticed that this thread has been "hit" 4585 times, so there  are poster interested in what is being said.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2006, 04:07:43 PM


PS  I just noticed that this thread has been "hit" 4585 times, so there  are poster interested in what is being said.



Could be they're just interested in seeing what we're saying to each other, that's more entertainiing! ;D

If anyone wants more historical fantasy, I could write another chapter! ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 01, 2006, 04:20:17 PM
Yes please Annie!! :) Can we hear more about Maries later life??? Did she become a flapper and embrace the Charleston?? Did she bob her hair? I hope not, she had such beautiful thick hair. How did she cope without her maids and jewels?? I'm dying to know :):)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 01, 2006, 04:33:27 PM
Bolsheviks ?  They always claimed ALL perished.   When the forensic investigation took place, it was conducted, on the one side, by Russians. Not bolsheviks, not even Soviets.
 Bolsheviks is a term used by political right wing bigots  OR extremely left wing ideaologists. In both cases, one would hope neither would conduct an objective scientific investigation.
 Sorry, David, could not resist that one.
 Oh- Eddiebiy, Marie became a short-order cook in Brighton, raising a brood of kids from unknown fathers whilst  making the best fish & chips, wrapped in the the latest Guardian.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 02, 2006, 04:21:46 AM

 Oh- Eddiebiy, Marie became a short-order cook in Brighton, raising a brood of kids from unknown fathers whilst  making the best fish & chips, wrapped in the the latest Guardian.


 ;D ;D ;D ;D

No!! :o :o She was much to classy for that!! Couldn't she have used the Daily Telegraph?? The Guardian is much to left wing!!
Annie tell me it isn't true!!

 ;) ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2006, 10:50:46 AM

...[in part]...
Bolsheviks ?  They always claimed ALL perished.   When the forensic investigation took place, it was conducted, on the one side, by Russians. Not bolsheviks, not even Soviets.
 Bolsheviks is a term used by political right wing bigots  OR extremely left wing ideaologists. In both cases, one would hope neither would conduct an objective scientific investigation.
....

Yes, the  Bolsheviks claimed they executed all eleven.  They also claimed that nine were buried in a mass grave and two were burnt and buried "near" the mass grave....OR.... did they?  The commandant Yurovsky, who was in charge, left us a  clue that this might not be entirely true.  In his private papers which he gave his son to keep, he kept a copy of  one of his testimonies.  In it is written that only a "single" body was burned and buried.

Let me repeat. In Yurovsky private papers he's written that only a  'single" body was burned and buried.

So what happen to the one missing?

At this time, we still have two who are missing.  One is Alexei and the other a grand duchess.

It appears the Russians think GD Marie is missing.  Is their information based just on what the sceintists wrote?  Or is there more to this story than we've been told?  If there is more to this story and someone had told Maples,  would he have changed his mind?

The Bolsheviks chose Lenin as their leader.   They were fanatics, terrorists and believed the "end justified the means" and in "absolute power".  But this thread isn't about who is called what and why or when. Go to the revolution section for this discussion.

I have no idea what the party affilation the scientist who dig up and studied the bones from the mass grave.  I, also,  have no idea what their educational background was.  All I know is what they wrote.  They believe  GD Marie is the one who is missing.  I know the Russian leaders believe or say they believe that it is GD Marie who is missing.  The memorial and the funeral continues to tell us they believe GD Marie is the one who is missing.

Not for a second do I believe the Russians as being stupid.

So, are they saying GD Marie is missing because they truly believe it or because that is what they want to believe or is it another misdirection to take the public's interest away from GD Anastasia being the missing grand duchess?

According to our Dr. Maples,  the bones which the Russians claim is GD Marie cannot be.  Let me go get his book DEAD MEN DO TELL TALES p. 257:

Quote
Our Russians hosts believed that Body No. 6, the midmost of the three young females, was the long-lost Anastasia.  Alas!  We had to disagree based on the growth patterns of the teeth, pelvises, sacra and long limbs of the three skeletons before us.

Farther down the page Maples adds:
Quote
Another piece of evidence ws the height of the other two young women... In photogaphs of Anastasia taken with her sisters a year before her death, she is shorter than Olga and noticeably shorter than Tatiana and Marie

He also talks aabout Alexandra's diary in Sept. 1917, ten months before July of 1918:
Quote
Anastasia is very fat, like Marie used to being thick-waisted, then tiny feet--I hope she grows more..."  Though the quote is rather vague, it seems to indicate clearly that Anastasia was not yet as talll as her sisters and might be expected to grow taller.

So, we're right back to square one.  Who do you believe?

I for one believe Dr. Maples conclusion about the bones so if I believe Maples then I can't believe the Russians  then and now.

Sooooooo, if I don't believe the Russians then and now,  then speculating that the Bolsheviks mislead us in 1918 and today,  makes me wonder why they are misleading us.

All your cute remarks and stories about GD Marie living happinly ever after doesn't change my direction which is to discover the truth of what happen to ALL eleven on the night of 16/17 July 1918.

Far as I'm concern,  this should be everyone's goal.

So, why did the Bolsheviks mislead us in 1918?  And, why do the Russians, today, continue to claim it is GD Marie who is missing when one of our best forensic scientists has provided information which tells us that it is GD Anastasia who is missing?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 02, 2006, 10:51:39 AM
Could be they're just interested in seeing what we're saying to each other, that's more entertainiing! ;D

Sorry to burst Bear's bubble, but in my case, that's it exactly!  :D
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2006, 10:55:48 AM
Here is the html text for the article in Volumn 285, Issue 1, Pages 15-32, Lev L Koesnikov, Gurge A. Pashinyan, and Sergey S. Abramov's report which includes photographs, sketches and why they think the missing body is GD Maria and not GD Anastasia.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/77502025/HTMLSTART
Published 2 March 2001.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2006, 11:12:28 AM
Truth and Bear never ride on bubbles but only on the finest stead which is taking us on a path to  a very special place  where lies, deciet, redicule and hatred can not exist.

I've started a new thread:  "Marie....missing?"

AGRBear







Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 02, 2006, 11:16:58 AM

...[in part]...
Bolsheviks ?  They always claimed ALL perished.   When the forensic investigation took place, it was conducted, on the one side, by Russians. Not bolsheviks, not even Soviets.
 Bolsheviks is a term used by political right wing bigots  OR extremely left wing ideaologists. In both cases, one would hope neither would conduct an objective scientific investigation.
....

Yes, the  Bolsheviks claimed they executed all eleven.  They also claimed that nine were buried in a mass grave and two were burnt and buried "near" the mass grave....OR.... did they?  The commandant Yurovsky, who was in charge, left us a  clue that this might not be entirely true.  In his private papers which he gave his son to keep, he kept a copy of  one of his testimonies.  In it is written that only a "single" body was burned and buried.

Let me repeat. In Yurovsky private papers he's written that only a  'single" body was burned and buried.

Quote
So, why did the Bolsheviks mislead us in 1918?  And, why do the Russians, today, continue to claim it is GD Marie who is missing when one of our best forensic scientists has provided information which tells us that it is GD Anastasia who is missing?
I agree with Robert. It's Yurovsky who came up with the business about burning bodies, not "The Bolsheviks". "The Bolsheviks", as the ruling group, were not present at the execution. For better or worse, they went along with what Yurovsky said. I know I'm going to regret this, becuase Bear will have a field day with it, but if anybody's misled us, it seems to be Yurovsky, not "The Bolsheviks."

Make what you will of Yurovsky and his motives. (And I know you will.) But I am curious, Bear, as to why you choose to believe his I-burned-one-body version of events, and NOT his I-burned-two-bodies version?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 02, 2006, 01:37:17 PM
So I have seen. The other members making light of this obsessive behaviour will do nothing to cure it but rather encourage more  unresolved and repetitive thoughts on what should be a closed issue.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 02, 2006, 09:21:47 PM
Truth and Bear never ride on bubbles but only on the finest stead which is taking us on a path to  a very special place  where lies, deciet, redicule and hatred can not exist.
"Stead"?
 ???
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 02, 2006, 10:52:20 PM
Yes stead, a shortened term not used commonly for 150 years, meaning bedstead. Evidently she and her version of the truth ride on a bedstead of some sort, maybe it rolls or maybe it levitates.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 03, 2006, 06:49:17 PM
...[in part]...
I agree with Robert. It's Yurovsky who came up with the business about burning bodies, not "The Bolsheviks". "The Bolsheviks", as the ruling group, were not present at the execution. For better or worse, they went along with what Yurovsky said. I know I'm going to regret this, becuase Bear will have a field day with it, but if anybody's misled us, it seems to be Yurovsky, not "The Bolsheviks."

What makes you think that Yurovsky and Lenin were not Bolsheviks in July f 1918?

Quote
Make what you will of Yurovsky and his motives. (And I know you will.) But I am curious, Bear, as to why you choose to believe his I-burned-one-body version of events, and NOT his I-burned-two-bodies version?

The testimony which stated that they burned a "single" body is what he kept in his private papers.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 03, 2006, 07:06:11 PM
>>Truth and Bear never ride on bubbles but only on the finest  steed which is taking us on a path to  a very special place  where lies, deciet, redicule and hatred can not exist.<<

Thank you for pointing out my  spelling error. 

Course, it matters not if my ride with truth  is upon a stead, which is a place of special advantage, or a  bedstead which would have wheels, and which would  also work quite nicely, or,  a steed,  which is a spirited stallion.  ;D

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 03, 2006, 09:11:03 PM
What makes you think that Yurovsky and Lenin were not Bolsheviks in July f 1918?
Sure, they were Bolsheviks. But Lenin plus Yurovsky makes a grand total of only two Bolsheviks with a direct hand in the Romanov executions. You, on the other hand, continue to talk about "the Bolsheviks" as a group. If you mean just Lenin and Yurovsky, please say so rather than using such all-encompassing terminology. The entire Bolshevik party was not in on the decision of whether or not to burn a body (or two), so it seems silly to me to accuse the Bolshevik party of misleading the public solely on the basis of Yurovsky's claims.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 03, 2006, 09:13:54 PM
I'm bordering on snotty here, but I fail to see what your metaphorical ride has to do with the qusetion of Maria's survival...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2006, 10:58:41 PM
Quote
Course, it matters not if my ride with truth  is upon a stead,

I think it's time for helen to make a new avatar ;D
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 04, 2006, 09:49:12 AM
I'm bordering on snotty here, but I fail to see what your metaphorical ride has to do with the qusetion of Maria's survival...

From time to time,  all of us hit the wrong computer keys, as you have with the word "qusetion".  Our  typing and spelling have absolutely nothing to do with "Maria's survival" and I truly hope the Annie's and the David's to not redicule you, too.

As for the "metaphorical ride",  it has to do with speaking the truth,  which  it appears the Bolsheviks have failed to do on many occasions.  Since I am not questioning "Maria survial", I have started a new thread called "Marie.....missing? which talks about the Bolshevik testimony which seems to tarnish GD Marie's character and to add to this discussion is this continued misdirection by  the Russians leaders and scientists who want us to believe GD Marie is one of the two who are missing and not GD Anastasia.

AGRBear

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 04, 2006, 09:58:50 AM
What makes you think that Yurovsky and Lenin were not Bolsheviks in July f 1918?
Sure, they were Bolsheviks. But Lenin plus Yurovsky makes a grand total of only two Bolsheviks with a direct hand in the Romanov executions. You, on the other hand, continue to talk about "the Bolsheviks" as a group. If you mean just Lenin and Yurovsky, please say so rather than using such all-encompassing terminology. The entire Bolshevik party was not in on the decision of whether or not to burn a body (or two), so it seems silly to me to accuse the Bolshevik party of misleading the public solely on the basis of Yurovsky's claims.

Sarushka  is correct.   All the  Bolsheviks were NOT involved in the execution of Nicholas II and the others.

AGRBear 

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 04, 2006, 10:28:37 PM
At the risk of sounding plaintive, can someone please clarify what this thread is supposed to be about?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 05, 2006, 12:52:53 AM
What a very sane question. It seems so out of place in Bear's thread. I beieve it is about quoting other people and adding very little new information yourself.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 05, 2006, 12:54:36 AM
I did not ridicule you. I only explained the meaning of the word stead.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 05, 2006, 07:10:06 AM
From time to time,  all of us hit the wrong computer keys, as you have with the word "qusetion".  Our  typing and spelling have absolutely nothing to do with "Maria's survival" and I truly hope the Annie's and the David's to not redicule you, too.

As for the "metaphorical ride",  it has to do with speaking the truth,  which  it appears the Bolsheviks have failed to do on many occasions.  Since I am not questioning "Maria survial", I have started a new thread called "Marie.....missing? which talks about the Bolshevik testimony which seems to tarnish GD Marie's character and to add to this discussion is this continued misdirection by  the Russians leaders and scientists who want us to believe GD Marie is one of the two who are missing and not GD Anastasia.

I wasn't actually looking for an explanation. My point was that we've veered off-topic.

By the way, you don't need to continually proclaim the nobility of your quest -- just conduct yourself in a noble way, and we'll get the point.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 05, 2006, 07:17:00 AM
From a sister-thread on this issue:
Since I am not questioning "Maria survial", I have started a new thread called "Marie.....missing? which talks about the Bolshevik testimony which seems to tarnish GD Marie's character and to add to this discussion is this continued misdirection by  the Russians leaders and scientists who want us to believe GD Marie is one of the two who are missing and not GD Anastasia.

Where exactly is this tarnishing testimony you speak of? And what does it have to do with who got burned and who didn't?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 05, 2006, 11:27:55 AM
At the risk of sounding plaintive, can someone please clarify what this thread is supposed to be about?

In my first post on this thread I wrote:

Quote
...why did the Bolsheviks mislead us in 1918?  And, why do the Russians, today, continue to claim it is GD Marie who is missing when one of our best forensic scientists has provided information which tells us that it is GD Anastasia who is missing?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 05, 2006, 11:51:01 AM
From a sister-thread on this issue:
Since I am not questioning "Maria survial", I have started a new thread called "Marie.....missing? which talks about the Bolshevik testimony which seems to tarnish GD Marie's character and to add to this discussion is this continued misdirection by  the Russians leaders and scientists who want us to believe GD Marie is one of the two who are missing and not GD Anastasia.

Where exactly is this tarnishing testimony you speak of? And what does it have to do with who got burned and who didn't?

Apparently by post about GD Marie and the events around her birthday in June of 1918 fell victim with the other lost posts when this forum had a glich.

I don't have time today to rewrite the post but will do so.

Tarnished GD Marie's character: A quick responce is the fact that Yurovsky's testimonies talk about GD Marie's vanishing act with Ivan S, one of the guards, and then goes on to talk about a priest talking about being shocked at one of the Romanov's behavior which seems to be  about  GD Marie and her vanishing act.   I think it was. also,  Yurovsky who mentioned that GD Marie was being some kind of family "outcast".... 

What has this to do with the burnt and missing bodies?  Russians claim the missing grand duchess is Marie.  Dr. Maples and other American scientists believe it is GD Anastasia who is missing.
 
Gonna run.



AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 05, 2006, 12:10:40 PM

I don't have time today to rewrite the post but will do so.

Tarnished GD Marie's character: A quick responce is the fact that Yurovsky's testimonies talk about GD Marie's vanishing act with Ivan S, one of the guards, and then goes on to talk about a priest talking about being shocked at one of the Romanov's behavior which seems to be  about  GD Marie and her vanishing act.   I think it was. also,  Yurovsky who mentioned that GD Marie was being some kind of family "outcast".... 


Does anyone else think that's rot?! Marie was Royalty, she wouldn't have gone of with any scabby guard!! That's defamation of character!

 :)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 05, 2006, 12:44:22 PM
EddieBoy, my dear, even royals  slum it at times. But of course this whole thread is rot.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 05, 2006, 01:15:39 PM
Bear,

I am perplexed. Two of the bodies are missing. The Russians assume that the missing girl is Marie. American forensic scientists identify the missing girl as Anastasia.

You have jumped from this disagreement to postulate a conspiracy designed to conceal the missing girl's identity on the part of the Russians. Um . . . is it beyond the realm of possibility that the two groups disagree based upon an interpretation of the evidence? In other words, the answer to the question "Why do the Russians insist that it is Marie that is missing?" is probably "Because they interpret the evidence in a different manner than the Americans."

Is there a reason why the most obvious explanation is not the correct explanation?

Simon
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 05, 2006, 01:17:48 PM
EddieBoy, my dear, even royals  slum it at times. But of course this whole hread is rot.

True as usual Robert!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on August 05, 2006, 05:44:06 PM
Is there a reason why the most obvious explanation is not the correct explanation?

Because the laws of the universe rely upon inconvenience and misleading evidence.

Anyhow, I side with the Russians, partially because I think that they had a more convincing argument on the matter, especially in the detailed descriptions of matching remains to profiles of the deceased; I'm not saying, though, that I'm really sure that either is completely right, or that I believe Yurovsky over the other reports and vice versa.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Bev on August 05, 2006, 07:12:54 PM
to lie.  No one does.  Gill, Stoneking, Sykes, Abramov, Jenkins, Deets, Weedn, Ivanov - none of these people have any motive whatsoever to lie in this because there is absolutely nothing that this would change.  There is no political motive, no financial motive, no dynastic motive - nothing.  Even Yurovsky was apparently telling the truth - he said he buried nine bodies and burned two, and guess what - two are missing.  They're buried exactly where he said they were.  Every piece of physical, circumstantial and eyewitness testimony confirms his story.  If Yurovsky said in one statement that he burned a body, maybe he just didn't want to get into who they burned or maybe he just misspoke, or maybe it was a bad translation or maybe he said one, because he was sure they burned the son, and he wasn't sure which woman's body was burned.

There is not one piece of evidence that confirms that any member escaped, and every single eyewitness attests to the fact that they were all killed.  All of the physical and circumstantial evidence confirms that they're all dead and they all died in that same room. 

Abaramov claims that Marie is missing according to the tests he performed on the skulls.  A German scientist who reviewed his work (whose name escapes me at this writing) confirmed his findings and pointed out that a two year difference between the two younger girls would not result in an exact identification.  He also pointed out that the bones were so deteiorated that the flaking on the ends of the vertabra that Maples claims is missing from the bones, would not be visible or destroyed by the ground conditions.  The same conditions are true of the teeth, and until they find dental records, there is no positve dental identification either. 

There is zero evidence to confirm King/Wilson's inference and insinuation that Marie or any of the daughters were involved with any of the guards, disappeared or in any way, shape or form were compromised at Ekaterinburg, and in fact, if it was any daughter in their fantasy, it would have to be Anna Anderson who had a baby in December of 1918 according to her own testimony and that of her promoter at the time, Baron Kliest,  which means she would have to have become pregnant in April of that year.  (And the Kurthians' explanation for that borders on lunacy.)

Like most of these events there are always people who claim to be the person who was killed or have seen the person after the death, or have some "important and inside information" that serves to make them part of the event.  Look at all the reports of Elvis or JFK sightings or people who claim to be of the imperial family killed in Ekaritenburg - and these people are always some poor, marginal delusional person whose own life is so desparate or meaningless or mundane that being anyone else is better than who they are.  And of course, there are always people who are willing to enable and support the imposter for whatever reasons or
motives they might have, emotional, financial or simple pride.  It's all very pitiful.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 05, 2006, 10:58:27 PM
Bear,

I am perplexed. Two of the bodies are missing. The Russians assume that the missing girl is Marie. American forensic scientists identify the missing girl as Anastasia.

You have jumped from this disagreement to postulate a conspiracy designed to conceal the missing girl's identity on the part of the Russians. Um . . . is it beyond the realm of possibility that the two groups disagree based upon an interpretation of the evidence? In other words, the answer to the question "Why do the Russians insist that it is Marie that is missing?" is probably "Because they interpret the evidence in a different manner than the Americans."

Is there a reason why the most obvious explanation is not the correct explanation?

Simon

I asked if you and other posters believed the Russians in 1918 and, now, have mislead us.
If  Simon and others  believe that the present disagreement on the idenitifaction of the missing grand duchess is merely a disagreement due to interpretation of evidence, this interpretation is perfectly fine with me.

The Russians believe  the missing grand duchess is Marie.

The Americans believe the missing grand duchess is Anastasia. 

Until the bones of the missing grand duchess are found, the disagreement as to who is mising cannot be settled.

Can we all agree on this?


AGRBear

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 05, 2006, 11:14:47 PM
to lie.  No one does.  Gill, Stoneking, Sykes....

This discussion is not about the DNA/mtDNA tests and the AA case.

Bev wrote:
Quote
  Even Yurovsky was apparently telling the truth - he said he buried nine bodies and burned two, and guess what - two are missing.  They're buried exactly where he said they were.  Every piece of physical, circumstantial and eyewitness testimony confirms his story.  If Yurovsky said in one statement that he burned a body, maybe he just didn't want to get into who they burned or maybe he just misspoke, or maybe it was a bad translation or maybe he said one, because he was sure they burned the son, and he wasn't sure which woman's body was burned.

I'll discuss this tomorrow.  But only on what pretains to GD Marie.

Bev wrote: 
Quote
There is not one piece of evidence that confirms that any member escaped...

This thread is not about anyone escaping.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 05, 2006, 11:23:12 PM
Is there a reason why the most obvious explanation is not the correct explanation?

Because the laws of the universe rely upon inconvenience and misleading evidence.

Anyhow, I side with the Russians, partially because I think that they had a more convincing argument on the matter, especially in the detailed descriptions of matching remains to profiles of the deceased; I'm not saying, though, that I'm really sure that either is completely right, or that I believe Yurovsky over the other reports and vice versa.

Some, like Ivan K., think the Russians are correct.

Others think GD Tatiana is the one who is missing.

Anyone else, who hasn't posted,  have an opinion?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 06, 2006, 10:07:35 AM
Quote
Course, it matters not if my ride with truth  is upon a stead,

I think it's time for helen to make a new avatar ;D

Hey, be my guest....  ;)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/poohonhorse.jpg)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on August 06, 2006, 10:49:13 AM
Quote
Course, it matters not if my ride with truth  is upon a stead,

I think it's time for helen to make a new avatar ;D

Hey, be my guest....  ;)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/poohonhorse.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/notworthy.gif)  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/laugh.gif)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 06, 2006, 02:42:59 PM
Quote
Course, it matters not if my ride with truth  is upon a stead,

I think it's time for helen to make a new avatar ;D

Hey, be my guest....  ;)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/poohonhorse.jpg)

>>Truth and Bear never ride on bubbles but only on the finest  steed which is taking us on a path to  a very special place  where lies, deciet, redicule and hatred can not exist.<<

Thank you for pointing out my  spelling error. 

Course, it matters not if my ride with truth  is upon a stead, which is a place of special advantage, or a  bedstead which would have wheels, and which would  also work quite nicely, or,  a steed,  which is a spirited stallion.  ;D



Thank you, Helen,  for the horse upon which I can ride with the truth.

He isn't quite the magnificent steed I had imagined but  he'll do just fine.

I shall call him "Goody Four Shoes".

AGRBear  ;D
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 06, 2006, 02:57:23 PM
... the horse upon which I can ride with the truth.
I also suspect that this is the very same horse that's been beat to death....(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/deadhorse.gif)  :-\

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: zackattack on August 06, 2006, 04:56:39 PM
... the horse upon which I can ride with the truth.
I also suspect that this is the very same horse that's been beat to death....(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/deadhorse.gif)  :-\


  I think that now they're beating the ghost of the poor dead horse! ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 06, 2006, 05:28:47 PM
... a very special place  where lies, deciet, redicule and hatred can not exist.....

BTW, it's "deceit". "I" before "E", except after "C"  ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 06, 2006, 05:31:27 PM
... a very special place  where lies, deciet, redicule and hatred can not exist.....

... ridicule...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Bev on August 06, 2006, 05:40:43 PM
I don't think you need to tell anyone how or what to post.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 06, 2006, 05:49:26 PM
Correction:

>>Truth and Bear never ride on bubbles but only on the finest steed which is taking us on a path to  a very special place  where lies, deceit, ridicule and hatred can not exist.<<

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/poohonhorse.jpg)

AGRBear and Goody Four Shoes [Who is not dead but  a  "never-can-die" cartoon which was a very generous present from sweet Helen].


 ;D
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 06, 2006, 05:55:53 PM
Enough about AGRBear and Goody Four Shoes.

Back to the subject.

Truly yours,
AGRBear and Goody Four Shoes
Friends of Truth

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/poohonhorse.jpg)




Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alixz on August 06, 2006, 06:00:52 PM
Has anyone who is posting here had a look at this thread?

Re: UK Sunday Express 25...  It is under The Final Chapter.

I believe that this story in this edition of the UK Sunday Express may hold the answers to all of the questions asked in this thread.

At least the FA thinks so.

I don't know, if this story is true, then all hope alas is gone, but at least all answers have been found.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 06, 2006, 06:13:49 PM
Has anyone who is posting here had a look at this thread?

Re: UK Sunday Express 25...  It is under The Final Chapter.

I believe that this story in this edition of the UK Sunday Express may hold the answers to all of the questions asked in this thread.

At least the FA thinks so.

I don't know, if this story is true, then all hope alas is gone, but at least all answers have been found.



I believe FA will keep us in touch as to the results when they are made public.

Meanwhile, back to " Marie.... missing?"
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 06, 2006, 07:21:22 PM
Didn't have time today to find information which was lost.  Hopefully,  I will find time tomorrow.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on August 06, 2006, 08:38:42 PM
... the horse upon which I can ride with the truth.
I also suspect that this is the very same horse that's been beat to death....(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/deadhorse.gif)  :-\



I never thought of that, it is him,  you're exactly right! The poor thing!

And Zack, you have a point there, it's beyond giving up the ghost! Good to see you back!

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 07, 2006, 12:18:48 AM
Annie,

If you continue to feed the bear, the rangers say that it will become a nuisance animal though I suspect that it already has crossed that threshold long ago.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 07, 2006, 08:26:17 AM
If you continue to feed the bear, the rangers say that it will become a nuisance animal though I suspect that it already has crossed that threshold long ago.

He is right, you know....  :)

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Holly on August 07, 2006, 10:07:19 AM
Wow, I could have sworn this topic was called, "Maria Surviving?".  ???
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 07, 2006, 10:20:34 AM
It is a shame that some posters find truth and SOURCES a "nuisance"      :-\

And, it is, also,  a shame that some posters prefer to ruin a perfectly good thread because they don't like the "truth" and the "SOURCES" presented.  :-[

Truly yours,
AGRBear and Goody Four Shoes
Friends of Truth

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/poohonhorse.jpg)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 07, 2006, 10:24:46 AM
Wow, I could have sworn this topic was called, "Maria Surviving?".  ???

Thank you Holly.

I hope the others get the hint.

Back to the subject.

Truly yours,
AGRBear and Goody Four Shoes
Friends of Truth

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/poohonhorse.jpg)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 07, 2006, 10:58:05 AM
Was GD Marie the one who was missing?
AND
Why did the Yurovsky and other Bolsheviki tarnish the good character of GD Marie?

The source is from THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson who found these testimonies and presented them to us.

If you agree or disagree with King’s and Wilson’s speculations which surround these testimonies is your concern. I am just posting what each guard testified, which was repeated in THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS.

I will post general descriptions about all four grand duchesses as a group first.

Starting on p. 238:

>>The young men in the Impatiev House guard were most fascinated by the four grand duchesses.<<

(1) Alexei Kabkanov: >>They were just like all girls, " Alexei Kabanov recalled, "stuck up and stupid, " though he added that they were "also quite lively, and very friendly to us." <<

Bear's Thoughts: The worst Alexei Kabkanov said about the four grand duchess was that they were "stuck up"  and "stupid".

This seems to be quite a normal comment coming from a young man about "girls" in general and four young ladies who just happen to have been the ex-Tsar's daughters.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Alixz on August 07, 2006, 11:10:06 AM
Alixz 
Newbie

 there be dragons!  Posts: 467

 
 
 Re: Marie...missing?   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anyone who is posting here had a look at this thread?

Re: UK Sunday Express 25...  It is under The Final Chapter.

I believe that this story in this edition of the UK Sunday Express may hold the answers to all of the questions asked in this thread.

At least the FA thinks so.

I don't know, if this story is true, then all hope alas is gone, but at least all answers have been found.


I am bringing this question from Marie Missing to here, just in case some posters haven't yet read the story.  I am not trying to start a fight.  Actually it looks like I am too late to do that it has already begun without me. 

I would love to believe the one or all of the Romanovs survived Ekaterinburg.  I am a dreamer but I am also a realist.  There are those who will never believe that all died that night and nothing and no one will change their minds.  My heart aches to believe with them.   :'(
 
 
 
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 07, 2006, 11:20:51 AM
Alixz 
Newbie

 there be dragons!  Posts: 467

 
 
 Re: Marie...missing?   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anyone who is posting here had a look at this thread?

Re: UK Sunday Express 25...  It is under The Final Chapter.

I believe that this story in this edition of the UK Sunday Express may hold the answers to all of the questions asked in this thread.

At least the FA thinks so.

I don't know, if this story is true, then all hope alas is gone, but at least all answers have been found.


I am bringing this question from Marie Missing to here, just in case some posters haven't yet read the story.  I am not trying to start a fight.  Actually it looks like I am too late to do that it has already begun without me. 

I would love to believe the one or all of the Romanovs survived Ekaterinburg.  I am a dreamer but I am also a realist.  There are those who will never believe that all died that night and nothing and no one will change their minds.  My heart aches to believe with them.   :'(
 
 
 


There should be no reason for anyone to pick a fight over M. B.-S.'s  [Michael Buchanan-Smart's] discovery.

Go to: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,7465.0.html

The only problem is,  M. B.-S. is not the first person to have found bones near the mass grave or where someone thought the grave of the two missing might have been buried.  So, until we hear evidence which proves these particular bones are GD Marie's or GD Anastasia's,  then the subject should remain open, I think.  In other words:  Don't slam shut the barn door before the horses are in the barn.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 07, 2006, 12:19:06 PM

Bear's Thoughts: The worst Alexei Kabkanov said about the four grand duchess was that they were "stuck up"  and "stupid".

This seems to be quite a normal comment coming from a young man about "girls" in general and four young ladies who just happen to have been the ex-Tsar's daughters.

AGRBear


Ouch! He really was revealing his ignorance there. I don't believe for a minute they were "Stuck up" they just had class and breeding, they were imperial after all! :)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on August 07, 2006, 05:49:51 PM
I think less that this is "ignorance", but rather more the opinions that others established for them - which I see as fairly obvious when he also gives such a conflicting view on them being "friendly" and "lively".  A lot of soldiers' talking is done by their superiors, regardless of who's actually speaking; most likely, the "stuck up" and "stupid" sentiment is how he was told to see the GDs, not how he actually thought of them.

I admit, though, men tend to force themselves to falsely attribute women they don't want to be friends with for external reasons, but do, if that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 08, 2006, 08:19:56 PM
I'm struggling to see what this one man's rather vague assessment of all four grand duchesses has to do with "the [sic]Yurovsky and other Bolsheviki tarnish[ing] the good character of GD Marie". Could you please just get to the point?

And when you do get to the point, please further explain what Maria's supposedly tarnished character has to do with the notion of her survival.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Holly on August 08, 2006, 09:05:09 PM
I agree with you on that AGRBear. Until the remains recently found can be proven as the missing children, this is still a mystery.
I don't think it was possible for Maria to have escaped before Yurovsky appeared. But who knows for sure? My opinion is that I don't think anyone was rescued that night, or survived. And really, I hope they didn't. That might sound bad to some but I adore this family and imagine how much pain and sorrow they would have, if one of them had survived? After seeing the people you love most in the world die in front of you, who knows if you would even want to live? Or could you go on at all? These were CHILDREN that we are talking about. Just imagine how much something like that would scar them. I wouldn't want them to go through all of that and if you think about it, it is much better for them to have died. Now they are happy together and can be remembered forever as the innocent children they were.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 09, 2006, 12:20:27 PM
My granparents were lucky and didn't suffer the Revolution, however, I have many many many relatives and friends who's family suffered all kinds of horrific events such as seeing parents being shot by the Bolsheviks,  being buried with the dead and having to crawl out and  from the dead to live,  returning home to find not just a family but an entire village empty of every single person one had known for their entire lives and no one would tell where all these people were taken.....

And, yet, not all, but most  the people I knew,  ended up living productive lives,  were married and had children. 

They understand what it meant to fall under the "terrorists" who in Russia  had called themselves Bolsheviks/Communists.  And, a huge majority of these children understand fully what it means to help other nations to become free of the Stalins, the Hitler and the others.  In fact, many of these survivors have grandchildren  who are, now, soldiers in Iraq.

Because a person has suffered tragedies,  which many of us have,  doesn't mean we should not continue to live for the living.

Life is precious, even if it's been dented, scratched,  broken or lost a part.  So, live it to the fullest.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on August 09, 2006, 04:03:39 PM
I'm struggling to see what this one man's rather vague assessment of all four grand duchesses has to do with "the [sic]Yurovsky and other Bolsheviki tarnish[ing] the good character of GD Marie". Could you please just get to the point?

And when you do get to the point, please further explain what Maria's supposedly tarnished character has to do with the notion of her survival.

I dion't believe this, but I think what they're implying is that she may have run off with the guy who 'tarnished her character' and therefore was not there the night they were shot, or perhaps he, her Bolshie lover, resuced her? I do think the alleged boyfriend is a big part of the story. (like in the fic story I wrote on one of these threads, they ran off together)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 09, 2006, 04:45:05 PM
I'm struggling to see what this one man's rather vague assessment of all four grand duchesses has to do with "the [sic]Yurovsky and other Bolsheviki tarnish[ing] the good character of GD Marie". Could you please just get to the point?

And when you do get to the point, please further explain what Maria's supposedly tarnished character has to do with the notion of her survival.

If you read my posts more carefully, you will discover that  I will be presenting a number of guards and their testimonies.  The first ones will be the general impression of all the grand duchesses which include GD Marie and then testimony which directly relates to GD Marie.

The first one was from King and Wilson's THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS:

Starting on p. 238:
>>The young men in the Impatiev House guard were most fascinated by the four grand duchesses.<<
(1) Alexei Kabkanov: >>They were just like all girls, " Alexei Kabanov recalled, "stuck up and stupid, " though he added that they were "also quite lively, and very friendly to us." <<

Truly yours,
AGRBear and Goody Four Shoes
Friends of Truth

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/PoohSteedTruth.jpg)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 09, 2006, 06:29:27 PM
Alexader Strekotin,  p. 240 FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson, tells us:

Quote
According to the rules laid down by the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet, the prisoners were to be kept under constant watch, particularly during their daily walks; conversation between the captives and their guards was expressly forbidden. Yet Avdayev never enforces this, and very quickly, the grand duchesses drew the young men of the Special Detachment into easy exchanges. "Everyone relaxed more" Strekotin recalled, "and began to talk and laugh with each other. We were especially keen to talk to the daughters, except for Olga." There must have been many such conversations, for Strekotin recounted that "they always began" with one of the grand duchesses complaining, "We're so bored! In Tobolsk, there was always something to do. I  kow!  Try to guess the name of this dog!"

Strekotin's description shows the same as Alexei  Kabanov.  The girls, in general, seem to be well liked.

Are there any other guards who left their impression about the four grand duchesses?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Holly on August 09, 2006, 06:53:34 PM
And, yet, not all, but most  the people I knew,  ended up living productive lives,  were married and had children. 
They understand what it meant to fall under the "terrorists" who in Russia  had called themselves Bolsheviks/Communists.  And, a huge majority of these children understand fully what it means to help other nations to become free of the Stalins, the Hitler and the others.  In fact, many of these survivors have grandchildren  who are, now, soldiers in Iraq.
Because a person has suffered tragedies,  which many of us have,  doesn't mean we should not continue to live for the living.
Life is precious, even if it's been dented, scratched,  broken or lost a part.  So, live it to the fullest.

Yes, that is all good and noble to say, but not everyone is the same and not everyone can just get up and go on with their lives as usual when you lose everyone you love. I've heard of many people commiting suicide after their spouses die. OTMAA weren't normal, and didn't lead normal lives. Unlike other children of that time, their family was their whole world. Their siblings weren't just people they shared parents with, they were their best friends. And, their only friends. How depressed do you think a young person would be if they had to watch the people they loved most in the world die right before them. Especially as brutally and horribly as they did. I wouldn't want anyone to survive something like that...it would undoubtedly haunt them for the rest of their lives and would only given them more suffering.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 09, 2006, 08:24:39 PM
I dion't believe this, but I think what they're implying is that she may have run off with the guy who 'tarnished her character' and therefore was not there the night they were shot, or perhaps he, her Bolshie lover, resuced her? I do think the alleged boyfriend is a big part of the story. (like in the fic story I wrote on one of these threads, they ran off together)

That's exactly what I was afraid of...

But, may I point out that this thread is entitled, "Marie...missing?" Missing is an entirely different concept than survival. So if Annie is right about where you're headed, Bear, I think you'd do better to post that particular line of thought on the thread you've already started on Maria's alleged survival.



If you read my posts more carefully, you will discover that  I will be presenting a number of guards and their testimonies.  The first ones will be the general impression of all the grand duchesses which include GD Marie and then testimony which directly relates to GD Marie.
Of course I realize that. I simply don't see the need to so sloooowly build up to what the guards thought of Maria. And again, more importantly, what does this have to do with the issue of whether or not Maria's body is missing? Honestly, this is starting to remind me of Radzinsky's Rasputin File -- all the while I was reading it, I thought to myself, "Stop playing detective with me and just tell me what you think!" I finally gave up.

Quote
Are there any other guards who left their impression about the four grand duchesses?
There certainly are. If you'd do me the courtesy of explaining what sort of testimony you believe is relevant and why, I'd be much more inclined to search some of it out for you. But I'm not about to go rummaging through my 50-some Romanov volumes without some sort of hint as to what I'm looking for or why I'm looking for it.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 09, 2006, 09:03:45 PM

...[in part]......
Was GD Marie the one who was missing?
AND
Why did the Yurovsky and other Bolsheviki tarnish the good character of GD Marie?



AGRBear


That seems clear to me.  What is there that you don't understand???

If I had nothing else to do,  I'd be more than happy to be quicker with my posts and sources.  As it is,  I just have ten to twenty minutes here and there to enter this forum, read and reply.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 09, 2006, 09:19:35 PM


Gosh, you don't think that testimony like this could have been influenced by that fact that they were trying to make themselves look good post facto, do you?

So,  you think he and the other guards were lying?  So where do we start to divide the truth from fiction?

Quote
I cannot figure out what the subject is, so returning to it is a tad difficult. No one was trying to besmirch Maria's reputation. They were trying to kill her, which is more serious, and according to the remains, they did so.

 Please, go back and read the first post.

Quote
There was no talk of the Grand Duchess going missing at the time --- as there was of Anastasia and Alexei.


The Russians believe it is GD Marie and Alexei  who are missing.  Why?  Like you have told me,  it is their interpretation of the evidence.

Quote
You seem to have created a thread to discuss an issue which exists only for you. Is this wise?


Regards,

Simon

I did not create this thread.

At this moment there have been 5143 hits for this thread so there appears to be someone other than myself who is interested in the subject created for this thread.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 09, 2006, 09:30:04 PM
Could have fooled me.  20 mins ? Right.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 09, 2006, 09:41:25 PM
And, yet, not all, but most  the people I knew,  ended up living productive lives,  were married and had children. 
They understand what it meant to fall under the "terrorists" who in Russia  had called themselves Bolsheviks/Communists.  And, a huge majority of these children understand fully what it means to help other nations to become free of the Stalins, the Hitler and the others.  In fact, many of these survivors have grandchildren  who are, now, soldiers in Iraq.
Because a person has suffered tragedies,  which many of us have,  doesn't mean we should not continue to live for the living.
Life is precious, even if it's been dented, scratched,  broken or lost a part.  So, live it to the fullest.

Yes, that is all good and noble to say, but not everyone is the same and not everyone can just get up and go on with their lives as usual when you lose everyone you love. I've heard of many people commiting suicide after their spouses die. OTMAA weren't normal, and didn't lead normal lives. Unlike other children of that time, their family was their whole world. Their siblings weren't just people they shared parents with, they were their best friends. And, their only friends. How depressed do you think a young person would be if they had to watch the people they loved most in the world die right before them. Especially as brutally and horribly as they did. I wouldn't want anyone to survive something like that...it would undoubtedly haunt them for the rest of their lives and would only given them more suffering.

Having lived for 64 years,  I can assure you,  I and other  people have  lived through the worst of times.   So, a word from the wise: Never think that death is the solution for anyone, including  a grand duchess.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 09, 2006, 09:45:26 PM

...[in part]......
Was GD Marie the one who was missing?
AND
Why did the Yurovsky and other Bolsheviki tarnish the good character of GD Marie?

AGRBear

That seems clear to me.  What is there that you don't understand???
I don't know how else to say this, and I feel the need to shout a little -- What do those two questions have to do WITH EACH OTHER?

If you want to discuss motives for tarnishing Maria's character, fine, but HOW DOES MARIA'S REPUTATION RELATE TO THE ISSUE OF WHERE HER REMAINS ARE? If you can't provide some connection between your two questions, I don't understand why you insist on discussing them in the same thread. This will be the third time I've asked you to explain -- please just answer my question.

Quote
If I had nothing else to do,  I'd be more than happy to be quicker with my posts and sources.  As it is,  I just have ten to twenty minutes here and there to enter this forum, read and reply.
If you have only "ten to twenty minutes here and there" I don't see why you'd bother with such tangental information in the first place....

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 09, 2006, 09:49:49 PM
You seem to have created a thread to discuss an issue which exists only for you. Is this wise?

I did not create this thread.

At this moment there have been 5143 hits for this thread so there appears to be someone other than myself who is interested in the subject created for this thread.

AGRBear


As someone mentioned on another thread where you tried to make this point, a lot of those hits are simply "gawkers". For a lot of us, myself included, watching these arguments of yours is akin to watching a train wreck -- it's horrifying, but we just can't look away...
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 09, 2006, 09:59:34 PM
Bear,

I did read the first post, and I fail to see how whatever you are doing here has anything to do with it.

This thread is kept alive by you, so it is fair to now call it your thread.

Do stop playing the age card. We are within striking distance of each other, and I hardly think that age alone entitles anyone to assume they have achieved either wisdom or perspective. Nothing personal in that, since as I said, we are within striking distance of each other.

My point was that the guards under interrogation had every incentive to make themselves look good ("Oh, how we sometimes wished they would escape . . ."). This is not quite the same thing as lying, is it? After the Bourbon restoration you wouldn't believe the number of people that came forward claiming to have done Marie Antoinette kindnesses during her captivity.

No one thought Maria was missing at the time. No one seriously thinks she is missing now. There are credible reasons why the Russians advanced the theory that the missing body was hers as opposed to Anastasia's --- an attempt to derail the Anastasia/Andersen mythology is at least a credible one.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 09, 2006, 10:09:06 PM
Hmmmm, 5032 [plus the ones no longer longer in the count] x 20 mins each....
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: zackattack on August 09, 2006, 11:17:31 PM

And, it is, also,  a shame that some posters prefer to ruin a perfectly good thread because they don't like the "truth" and the "SOURCES" presented.  :-[



hhhmmm....she put quotes around the words truth and sources....
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on August 09, 2006, 11:33:42 PM
and I'm trying to run away on my stead but he's dead :P
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 11, 2006, 10:01:54 AM
I have heard more than once that when the Romanov bodies where found, Russia wanted to make it seem as Mariahad survived. Is that possible?

Maria_Romanov, I believe, is asking: Do the Russians know the missing body is not GD Marie,  but they want us to think it is GD Marie.

 If so, why?

 " Marie ....surviving?"  is what she placed in the subject line.

So, the question evidently was to include this as well.

I don't think she did?  But then this isn't about Bear, this is about why do the Russians want us to think it is GD Marie who is missing?

Simon has mentioned that the Russians interpret the evdience and believe the evidence tells us that GD Marie is missing.

Sound like a firm logical answer.

But is this the real reason?  is what, I believe, Maria_ Romanov is asking.

Truly yours,
AGRBear and Goody Four Shoes
Friends of Truth

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/PoohSteedTruth.jpg)





Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 11, 2006, 10:16:51 AM
Bear: Post eliminated.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 11, 2006, 10:42:08 AM

...[in part]....

Bear,


My point was that the guards under interrogation had every incentive to make themselves look good ("Oh, how we sometimes wished they would escape . . ."). This is not quite the same thing as lying, is it? After the Bourbon restoration you wouldn't believe the number of people that came forward claiming to have done Marie Antoinette kindnesses during her captivity.
....

Regards,

Simon


Simon,

Are you referring to the following post:

Alexader Strekotin,  p. 240 FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by King and Wilson, tells us:

Quote
According to the rules laid down by the Presidium of the Ural Regional Soviet, the prisoners were to be kept under constant watch, particularly during their daily walks; conversation between the captives and their guards was expressly forbidden. Yet Avdayev never enforces this, and very quickly, the grand duchesses drew the young men of the Special Detachment into easy exchanges. "Everyone relaxed more" Strekotin recalled, "and began to talk and laugh with each other. We were especially keen to talk to the daughters, except for Olga." There must have been many such conversations, for Strekotin recounted that "they always began" with one of the grand duchesses complaining, "We're so bored! In Tobolsk, there was always something to do. I  kow!  Try to guess the name of this dog!"

Strekotin's description shows the same as Alexei  Kabanov.  The girls, in general, seem to be well liked.

Are there any other guards who left their impression about the four grand duchesses?

AGRBear

Or were you reffering to the post about Strekotin and his friends thinking it might be okay if the four grand duchesses escaped?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Mazukov on August 15, 2006, 09:36:04 PM
AGRBear, i'm sorry but I don't get just how your coming to all this.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2006, 09:06:56 AM
I think this is what the creator of this thread was asking:
Quote
...why do the Russians want us to think it is GD Marie who is missing?

If you do think this then why do you think they did/are?

If you do not think this then do you think the missing remains are GD Marie's?

So,  what do you think?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2006, 10:08:58 AM

...[in part]...
If you want to discuss motives for tarnishing Maria's character, fine, but HOW DOES MARIA'S REPUTATION RELATE TO THE ISSUE OF WHERE HER REMAINS ARE?
....


If GD Marie's remains are missing,  then our sights should be on GD Marie and not GD Anastasia. 

And, it does appear that GD Marie recieves a great deal more notice by the guards than the others just before Yurovsky takes command.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 16, 2006, 10:34:59 AM
Bear, you amaze me (but not necessrily in a good way).

If GD Marie's remains are missing,  then our sights should be on GD Marie and not GD Anastasia.
I said nothing about Anastasia in the post you quoted. Where does this Anastasia business come from?


Although you quoted my long-suffering question in your post, you STILL haven't answered it. This will be the FOURTH time I've asked in the last week:
HOW DOES MARIA'S REPUTATION RELATE TO THE ISSUE OF WHERE HER REMAINS ARE?
....


And, it does appear that GD Marie recieves a great deal more notice by the guards than the others just before Yurovsky takes command.
Again, HOW does this fact relate to the possibility that Maria's remains are missing?

PLEASE JUST SAY IT!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: David_Pritchard on August 16, 2006, 09:35:40 PM
Bear, you amaze me (but not necessrily in a good way).

If GD Marie's remains are missing,  then our sights should be on GD Marie and not GD Anastasia.
I said nothing about Anastasia in the post you quoted. Where does this Anastasia business come from?


Although you quoted my long-suffering question in your post, you STILL haven't answered it. This will be the FOURTH time I've asked in the last week:
HOW DOES MARIA'S REPUTATION RELATE TO THE ISSUE OF WHERE HER REMAINS ARE?
....


And, it does appear that GD Marie recieves a great deal more notice by the guards than the others just before Yurovsky takes command.
Again, HOW does this fact relate to the possibility that Maria's remains are missing?

PLEASE JUST SAY IT!

If Bear revealed her true opinions would this not end the neverending circular discussion? If Bear resolved her issues about Maria what would she have to discuss over and over again? If there were no remaining mysteries about the IF burials what would become of Bear? Who would she be without the revolving questions?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Jarian on August 17, 2006, 04:50:36 PM
If Maria survived wouldn't she tell who she is?
~sadly i think no one survived that terrible night/morning. :'(


 Maria~fan
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on August 17, 2006, 09:30:41 PM
Well, if I had an entire country very angered at my surname, I would go round screaming, "I'm an heir to the throne!"  Nothing offensive, I hope.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2006, 09:07:20 AM
Well, if I had an entire country very angered at my surname, I would go round screaming, "I'm an heir to the throne!"  Nothing offensive, I hope.

This is another reason I discount AA's claim. If you WERE a daughter of the Tsar, you escaped,  and your family had been murdered, wouldn't you live in mortal fear for your own life too? The LAST thing you'd want to do is run around going "LOOK AT ME!! I'M A ROMANOV! I'M THE HEIR TO THE THRONE!"  ::)

 If anyone HAD escaped, I'd say it was a sure bet they'd live in obscurity and do their best to remain anonymous, even changing their name and going by an alias. This was done among those escaping the Bolsheviks. Felix Yussoupov and Anna Vyrobova are among those who were given false ID's while hiding and/or running from the Bolsheviks. There was what AV described an entire 'underground railroad' type network  of Orthodox Priests who would take you in and give you a bogus identity and find you 'safe houses' where you could be protected until you could manage to get out of the country.* So IF a GD had REALLY escaped, her story would be nothing like AA's!

*(In time, the Priests were eventually found out and the Bolsheviks cracked down on the churches too and stopped allowing them immunity, but it worked for awhile.

For the record, it was the Freemasons who helped Felix Y. with his fake ID. Ironically, his first fake papers turned out to be in the name of a guy who had deserted the army, was presumed dead, and had come back to  St. Petersburg to go on a murderous rampage! When Felix saw in the paper there was a bulletin out that this guy was extremely dangerous and was to be shot on sight, he had to of course ask the Freemasons to find him a new name, he didn't want to be that guy!  They did, and as he was leaving the Moika, he looked over to see there was a huge Red Cross painted on the side of it- his 'protectors' had disguised his house as a hospital to spare it the attacks others had suffered. This is a very interesting topic, I could lecture all day...sigh, shouild have been a teacher,then you'd have to listen to me!)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Sarushka on August 19, 2006, 03:19:38 PM
This is another reason I discount AA's claim. If you WERE a daughter of the Tsar, you escaped,  and your family had been murdered, wouldn't you live in mortal fear for your own life too? The LAST thing you'd want to do is run around going "LOOK AT ME!! I'M A ROMANOV! I'M THE HEIR TO THE THRONE!"  ::)

I know the debate rages on this score, but IMO, Anastasia *wasn't* heir to the throne according to the laws of succession.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 19, 2006, 03:54:16 PM
NONE of them were heirs to the throne.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Jarian on August 19, 2006, 06:30:36 PM
WELL I MEANT TO A FAMILY MEMBER LIKE THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND OR HER AUNT OLGA.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 20, 2006, 06:49:57 PM
Mariafan - please don't use all caps in your posts unless you are really intending to shout at us.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Jarian on August 20, 2006, 07:08:03 PM
i forgot i had caps on beacuse i was iming on of my friends with capital letters.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 13, 2006, 10:56:18 AM
My two questions are quite simple:
(1) Was GD Marie the one who was missing?
AND
(2) Why did the Yurovsky and other Bolsheviki tarnish the good character of GD Marie?


QUESTION (1)

The Russian scientists believe GD Marie is the one missing from the mass grave's remains.

American scientists believe GD Anastasia is the one missing from the mass grave's remains.

Please, note:   Question (1)  does not mention the word "survival".  The word used is  "missing".


Who do you think is missing and why?

QUESTION (2) Yourievsky seems to make a point of  tarnishing the good character of GD Marie.  Why?

AGRBear



Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 13, 2006, 11:07:16 AM
(1) Grand Duchess Maria is not missing. It was generally agreed by the American scientists and most historians that the Russians posited Maria as missing and Anastasia present in an attempt to quell the persistent rumors of Anastasia's survival (you may be familiar with those rumors).

(2) Yurovsky did not "tarnish" Maria's sterling reputation (what reputation? She was a young woman virtually unknown outside of her immediate family) any more or less than he did the others in the party of people that he, you know, SHOT. Don't you think his view of the potential victims was somewhat jaundiced to begin with?

My unsolicited advice is that you give this line of "inquiry" up, as it is fruitless.



Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 13, 2006, 11:13:28 AM

...[in part]...
(1) Grand Duchess Maria is not missing. It was generally agreed by the American scientists and most historians that the Russians posited Maria as missing and Anastasia present in an attempt to quell the persistent rumors of Anastasia's survival (you may be familiar with those rumors).


Are you telling me that the Russian scientist are deliberately lying to cover up the fact that it is GD Anastsaia who is missing?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 13, 2006, 05:00:45 PM
No, I am not. Furthermore, if you cannot be bothered to read posts with a modicum of attention, you will not learn all that you can from these forums, Bear.

One reads one's sources and makes one's judgements. Might I suggest you review the statements of Maples and other forensic scientists who were involved with the bodies, and try to understand what it is that they are saying? Or if you have --- which I seriously doubt --- then stop cluttering up boards with self-serving questions that have been answered in many sources to the satisfaction of all involved.

For the record, it is possible that the Russian forensic scientists made a mistake. Life is not all conspiracy, despite your efforts to prove it otherwise. On the other hand, I suppose it gives you something to do with your time.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 13, 2006, 09:18:48 PM
I am sorry if I misunderstood your post.

Louis_Charles quote:
Quote
  [....in part....]

Grand Duchess Maria is not missing. It was generally agreed by the American scientists and most historians that the Russians posited Maria as missing and Anastasia present in an attempt to quell the persistent rumors of Anastasia's survival (you may be familiar with those rumors).

It appears to me,  I you think the Russians are making attempts to quell the persistent rumors of Anastasia's survival, if this is right, then it appears you are telling us that you believe they are lying in order to do so.   SOOOOooooo, If an attempt is being made to hide the truth,  then   I can't understand how this could be considered a "mistake" on their part. 

AND, as you know,  because I've voiced it a dozen times and have placed his information on various threads,  I personally think that Maples conclusion is correct.  So,  I'm not sure why you are asking if I have read Maples or understand the evidence.

If you read my posts,  I am asking what  YOU and others believe and  have asked why they believe what they do.

AGRBear


 
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 13, 2006, 09:45:44 PM
No, I am not. Furthermore, if you cannot be bothered to read posts with a modicum of attention, you will not learn all that you can from these forums, Bear.

One reads one's sources and makes one's judgements. Might I suggest you review the statements of Maples and other forensic scientists who were involved with the bodies, and try to understand what it is that they are saying? Or if you have --- which I seriously doubt --- then stop cluttering up boards with self-serving questions that have been answered in many sources to the satisfaction of all involved.

For the record, it is possible that the Russian forensic scientists made a mistake. Life is not all conspiracy, despite your efforts to prove it otherwise. On the other hand, I suppose it gives you something to do with your time.

Bear,

I think that Anastasia is missing. I think this because I find the Maples arguments as voiced in Massie's The Final Chapter convincing.

You think that Anastasia is missing, presumably for the same reason? If someone posts that they think it is Maria who is missing, that means that they accept the Russian interpretation of the skeletal remains. Or they are whimsical.

There is no evidence that there is a Russian conspiracy to prove it was Maria, or that anyone lied. In any event, I did not say that they had. Please read posts carefully.

I do not think that Yurovsky traduced Grand Duchess Maria's reputation, and I challenge you to demonstrate that he did. Bear in mind --- sorry, the pun is unavoidable --- that you will have to prove intent to do so. If he simply noted that Maria might have gone missing with a guard, why is that casting "aspersions"? What on earth did it matter to Yurovsky?

He shot them. He didn't waste time  damaging their reputations. Indeed, he doesn't seem to have had personal feelings about his task at all, and that is part of the peculiar horror of the executions.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2006, 10:50:49 AM

....[in part]....

Bear,

I think that Anastasia is missing. I think this because I find the Maples arguments as voiced in Massie's The Final Chapter convincing.

BEAR :Yes, I have read Massie's book as well as Maples evidence. And, yes, we do agree.

Louis_Charles worte
Quote
You think that Anastasia is missing, presumably for the same reason?

BEAR:  For many of the same reasons so I can say "Yes"  again.

Louis Charles wrote:
Quote
If someone posts that they think it is Maria who is missing, that means that they accept the Russian interpretation of the skeletal remains.

BEAR: They may accept the Russians interpretations of the skeletal remains just as the Russians do and they may have other reasons.  I agree.

Louis Charles wrote:
Quote
Or they are whimsical.

BEAR:  I'm not sure why you added this. 

Does this mean  that you think those who think the Russians  interuptations are right  should be considered as being "whismical"?

Would this  include the Russian scientists???

Louis Chares wrote:
Quote
There is no evidence that there is a Russian conspiracy to prove it was Maria, or that anyone lied. In any event, I did not say that they had. Please read posts carefully.

BEAR:  Herein lies my confusion on your posts.  If the Russians are ... what were the words you used....  ah yes,  you wrote:

Quote
... the Russians posited Maria as missing and Anastasia present in an attempt to quell the persistent rumors of Anastasia's survival (you may be familiar with those rumors).

"...In an attempt to quell the persistents rumors..."

The act of "quelling" means " to put down", " supress".

So you're not saying they "lied" but suggest they are suppressing information.

To me, that sounds as if you are hinting that the Russians are not telling us the truth.

Maybe you draw the line between "to quell" and "lying",   to me,  and I may be alone in this, but I think they are in this case one in the same because I don't  think you can "quell" without lying.

Again,  I may be wrong, but that is how I've read this part of your post.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2006, 11:13:38 AM
Conspiracy:

1.  An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful or subversive act
4.  joining or acting together as if sinister design

Would covering up evidence be considered:
(1)  conspiritorial
or
(2) a small white lie which harms no one

???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2006, 12:13:15 PM
....[in part]....

I do not think that Yurovsky traduced Grand Duchess Maria's reputation, and I challenge you to demonstrate that he did. Bear in mind --- sorry, the pun is unavoidable --- that you will have to prove intent to do so. If he simply noted that Maria might have gone missing with a guard, why is that casting "aspersions"? What on earth did it matter to Yurovsky?

He shot them. He didn't waste time  damaging their reputations. Indeed, he doesn't seem to have had personal feelings about his task at all, and that is part of the peculiar horror of the executions.



And, no, I'm not avoiding this part  of Louis_Charles post.

I am off to watch batting practice at AT&T [Baseball]  Park and then hopefully see a "win",  SOOoooooo,  it's time to find my coat and stuff and be on my way..... And, I hope to see a few 'Bye bye babies!" before the day is done.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 14, 2006, 01:28:19 PM
I hope there were plenty of home runs.

If you read my post, I carefully said that the American scientists and most historians interpreted the Russian determination to have Anastasia in the grave as an attempt to quell the peristent survival rumors in the West. This is a "best guess" as to why they came to the conclusions they did, since the Americans regarded the skeleton as Maria's. The Russians themselves may have done this because they did, in fact, believe that the youngest Grand Duchess was in the grave.

The word whimsy means that one could espouse this position on a . . . well, on a whim. I have seen more whimsical positions expressed in the past year than Carter has liver pills. And no, I do not mean the Russian scientists. Had I meant them, I would have specified them.

I am glad you know what a conspiracy is. Since I said that I do not regard the Russians as engaged in one, I have no idea what it has to do with my post.

Simon


Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2006, 03:14:30 PM
Well bear, now you've given away your location, you live near SF! You may now be stalked!

I didn't know AT&T was a new park, I was afraid they had renamed Candlestick again. The 49ers haven't had a good season since they sold out the name. If the legendary name of Candlestick returns, so will the glory days of the 49ers! (But first you have to get Eddie DeBartolo back as owner and not his greedy sister who tricked him and stole the team!)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Tania+ on September 14, 2006, 03:49:55 PM
Dear FA :

What kind of message are we sending out to any person here or on the global internet :

"Well bear, now you've given away your location, you live near SF! You may now be stalked!"
This is not a funny statement, nor any statement that is or would be from a person of sound thinking !

I protest that any member of the AP forum may go as far as to state such a statement as the above, to any member, let alone give provocation or thought for any member of any community to even think about doing something as stated.
We have had enough of those on the internet in terms of scams, and other predatory understandings.
I would hope that this in tone, or meaning will not continue with any poster here or anywhere on the internet !

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2006, 05:07:50 PM
Goodness gracious Tania must you pick on EVERYTHING I say? It is not even giving out any info, when she said AT and T park that gives away she is in or near SF since that is where the park is, but come on, there are a million other people there too! No one is going to stalk bear! It was a JOKE! A break from the controversy! I tried to be lighthearted, excuuuse me! :'(
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 14, 2006, 06:15:09 PM
No one is going to stalk bear!

Don't be so sure, Annie. You forget about all the Bear fans on this forum - you know - all those people that send her numerous PMs with endless questions and comments to post on these boards... They may just search her out now that they know she lives near San Francisco!!! We all know what she looks like after all, so she would be real easy to spot:
(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3977/poohdg6.png) 

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 14, 2006, 06:18:18 PM
I protest that any member of the AP forum may go as far as to state such a statement as the above, to any member, let alone give provocation or thought for any member of any community to even think about doing something as stated.

Tania, maybe you should consider organizing a strike!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2006, 08:41:56 PM
No one is going to stalk bear!

Don't be so sure, Annie. You forget about all the Bear fans on this forum - you know - all those people that send her numerous PMs with endless questions and comments to post on these boards... They may just search her out now that they know she lives near San Francisco!!! We all know what she looks like after all, so she would be real easy to spot:
(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3977/poohdg6.png) 



You are right! And we also know her address, she lives on the road to truth! :D
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2006, 10:10:30 PM

...[in part]...
Well bear, now you've given away your location, you live near SF! ...

I didn't know AT&T was a new park, I was afraid they had renamed Candlestick again. The 49ers haven't had a good season since they sold out the name. If the legendary name of Candlestick returns, so will the glory days of the 49ers! (But first you have to get Eddie DeBartolo back as owner and not his greedy sister who tricked him and stole the team!)

As usual,  Annie doesn't quite get her facts  right.

The Giant's  baseball field is AT & T Park, which  is several years old, now, and, yes, it is  in San Francisco.  It is  near the Bay Bridge.  Candelstick Park is, now, called Monster Park and is farther south and is the home of the 49ers.  Eddie DeBartolo lost his ownership and there is no need to discuss why.  As for his sister being "greedy",  that is your  opinion.

As to where I live,  just a few weeks ago I was in the Marineers baseball Park, Safeco Field,  and was eating a hot dog there....  Where is there? Seattle,  Washington.

Funny how airplanes can take you and I  to all kinds of places.

AGRBear




Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2006, 10:17:56 PM
No one is going to stalk bear!

Don't be so sure, Annie. You forget about all the Bear fans on this forum - you know - all those people that send her numerous PMs with endless questions and comments to post on these boards... They may just search her out now that they know she lives near San Francisco!!! We all know what she looks like after all, so she would be real easy to spot:
(http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/3977/poohdg6.png) 



You are right! And we also know her address, she lives on the road to truth! :D

Well, it seems  Annie his only partly right, again.  I "travel" the road of truth. 

AGRBear

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 14, 2006, 10:32:31 PM
Putting all kidding aside,  I'd like to respond to Annie's and Helen's references to  being "stalked"  or  "search her out"  mentioned in their posts.
The two of you may think it is funny.  It is not.   Why?  Having lost five family members,  3 were children under the age of ten,  who were murdered  along with a neighbor lady and two of her children, also, under the age of 10,  by two men who stalked their victims and were delighted that they had a chance to kill three additional people,  I realize the gravity of even making this kind of suggestion in public because it has and will set some of these people off into  doing terible things.

Perhaps,  I should place these children's faces on this forum so you can see them up close and personal.

You'd cry your eyes out if you saw those five beautful  children who are no more.

About four days earlier these same two men  had  knocked on the door of my parents but their huge 150 pound wolf-German Shepard scared them away...

So,  PLEASE,  understand,  some things are just NOT funny.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on September 14, 2006, 10:35:27 PM
Bear if you will read my post, you will see that I THOUGHT Candlestick had been renamed but quickly found out there was a new baseball stadium by googling. I am a huge football fan but don't care for baseball. That explains it!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Tania+ on September 14, 2006, 10:57:27 PM
Actually, I want to expand a bit more on the 'stalking' statement. American humor is not universal, and in these grave times where there are so many global issues, people are being stalked, murdered, and abused. If one places behind one's statement, even as Annie put it, 'watch out you may be stalked', it should have been followed up by 'i'm just joking'. But internationally, in today's world, for the families, and the many missing, being stalked is not a joking matter.

I think we need to watch carefully about what we state, and be caring about others sensibilities. Annie, as I have said many times, I am not picking on you, but rather the means of how you identifiably express yourself. In this particular regard, it ended up with hurting someone's feelings, even though you might have been jesting. I am reminded a few days ago about how you posted and lamented to the forum members of how hurt you were at the experiences you had with the loss of your beloved cats. You cried in relating how you felt, even though the experiences were some years before. But in the case of human beings, and indeed relatives, people have the sameness of 'feelings', if not even closer than pets.

On these forums we have become kind of cavlier in some respects in our tone and responses when it comes to talking about death, trauma of some sorts, or about people who have experienced these issues, now and 100 years ago. It is like we have forgotten that people lived, and were/are human beings, and that we need always to respect human life at all cost.

You may all have fun making jest or laughing about how I respond at times in regards to statements as above, but I have worked with those who have lost loved ones in every kind of variable experiences, tragic to say the least in outcome. I have also personally experienced some very more than difficult experiences. From all of these, and being in the work still to date, one does not forget the responsibility one has to that of human life. I am not just an armchair person getting involvied in issues that are long dead, or remote from my life at all. It has been sometimes excruciating to hear these stories, and counsel these human hearts.

So, next time you want to poke fun, make sure you follow it by expressing just that. I'm sorry I can't lighten up at times like you want me to. Human life to me is more than valuable, and I am alive today because I respect human life beyond words. I will always speak up for every person no matter what age, because i believe it is the right thing to do ! Like me or dislike me, I can only do what I believe is right. If you fault me on that that is yours to do as you think...

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on September 15, 2006, 06:25:28 AM
Like me or dislike me, I can't help what strange and unintended things you read into my posts. Sheesh, first the horse and now this. I'm afraid to post now, what will you make out of something silly next?  :P I feel like I am being stalked, by you!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Eddie_uk on September 15, 2006, 10:37:45 AM
Oh! please don´t stop posting Annie. I and many others enjoy your posts!! :)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 15, 2006, 10:55:36 AM
I feel like I am being stalked, by you!

I think you just may be right!  :o  ???


Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 15, 2006, 11:16:30 AM
Eddie,  we all enjoy Annie's postings to some degree but this particular comment about stalking needs to be discussed.

To be serious for another moment or two,  let me ask you:  Do you approve of posters voicing someone should "stalk" someone, be it in fun or serious, on a public forum where there is the remote possibility that it may set off someone into action which may result in the harming of another poster?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Tania+ on September 15, 2006, 11:21:02 AM
Annie,

You and everyone has a right to post, but you overstep your boundries, and gain less respect when you work to emesh others in your want of acting childish, slight others, then work to have yourself validated in disrespecting others. This is childish, attention getting at best. One would think ones time would be better spent than creating difficulties for others.

Real adults don't behave this way. I am not stalking you Annie, and Helen_A, your comments are even less appreciated. You owe me an apology as well !

If you both go back over your posts of late, you will see that there were and perhaps still remain three peoples who started out to make personal provoking remarks about a member, and then continued unabaited, without conscience, then started in on me. If this is what you think the membership supports, then you are all on the wrong forum !

You owe several apologies to those you infringe on, and work to harm with your words. Marie may be missing...but your manners are even more atrocious, and for the most part, abandoned. I have done nothing wrong for any of you to respond or cast doubt upon. You need to think before you post, not act on your impulses.

Tatiana+

cc: FA & Lisa

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 15, 2006, 11:30:51 AM
I feel like I am being stalked, by you!

I think you just may be right!  :o  ???




I do not find the humor in this.

Evidently,  our,  Tania and my own,  requests have been ingnored.   I do not understand why because this talk of "stalking" is not funny,  because it can cause real harm to real people.

Perhaps,  we can take this to PMs from this point.

Let's get back to the two questions I've asked about GD Marie.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on September 15, 2006, 11:38:20 AM
Oh dear, now the class tattletale has ratted me out to FA and Lisa! And you post publically that you have done so to let everybody know! For WHAT?!!! Tania you have made WAY WAY WAY too much out of this. Honestly, it is ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time, not to mention off topic.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on September 15, 2006, 11:40:19 AM
I feel like I am being stalked, by you!

I think you just may be right!  :o  ???




I know I am, if anyone else had made the comment it would have gone unnoticed. The whole big deal that has been blown out of proportion is absolutely outrageous.

And thanks Eddie, I enjoy your posts too!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 15, 2006, 11:49:31 AM

Real adults don't behave this way. 

What way?  ???

I am not stalking you Annie, and Helen_A, your comments are even less appreciated. You owe me an apology as well !

If I didn't know any better I may think that you are stalking me now.  Maybe I better go into witness protection program.  8)

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 15, 2006, 11:56:06 AM
Annie, Helen and others, go to PMs on this discussion which has nothing to do with the topic of this thread

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Annie on September 15, 2006, 11:57:34 AM

Real adults don't behave this way. 

What way?  ???

I am not stalking you Annie, and Helen_A, your comments are even less appreciated. You owe me an apology as well !

If I didn't know any better I may think that you are stalking me now.  Maybe I better go into witness protection program.  8)



Come with me, I am going too! We will live in seclusion near Elvis, Jim Morrison, and the real Anastasia!
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 15, 2006, 12:11:05 PM
The following post goes over the boundaries of being in bad taste.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 15, 2006, 12:15:28 PM
Back to subject which is:  Marie...missing?

For all we know, Marie may be in the same witness protection program and we may run into her. I'll let you know.
Maybe she didn't want to be stalked either.

Marie in Witness Protection Program ( :-X):

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1756/mariebe5.png)

P.S. Attention those tempted to take this seriously: 

THIS IS A JOKE! Marie is NOT in the Witness Protection Program, she was murdered in 1918!


Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 15, 2006, 12:22:11 PM
Back to subject which is:  Marie...missing?

For all we know, Marie may be in the same witness protection program and we may run into her. I'll let you know.
Maybe she didn't want to be stalked either.



The revolutionaries who later called themselves Bolsheviks did stalk the Romanovs which resulted in some of the members of the Royal Family being blown to pieces even before March of 1917.

Nicholas II's entire attitude about the revolutionaries can probably date back to the day he saw his grandfather torn to pieces as pools of his blood were pumped out of his wounds as he lay more dead than alive on the couch in the palace.

What the young Nicholas II saw  was more than a dying man, he saw a man, a victim of those whom his grandfather had set free and that these men returned in payment for his good deeds by  making  bombs which these men then  used them on a man who should have been their hero, not their villian.

Every stalker has his or her own reason, then, and, now.  More often than not, the reasons are not good.

So, for the finally time,  I make a request that this stalking dicussion ends here and is taken to PM, PLEASE.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 15, 2006, 12:44:38 PM
Back to subject which is:  Marie...missing?

I hope there were plenty of home runs.

If you read my post, I carefully said that the American scientists and most historians interpreted the Russian determination to have Anastasia in the grave as an attempt to quell the peristent survival rumors in the West.

BEAR:  Perhaps I should have asked: Do you think this is true?

 Simon wrote:  
Quote
This is a "best guess" as to why they came to the conclusions they did, since the Americans regarded the skeleton as Maria's.

BEAR:  A "guess" on your part.  I understand this.

Simon wrote
Quote
The Russians themselves may have done this because they did, in fact, believe that the youngest Grand Duchess was in the grave.

This is where I get hung up.  

Either the Russians [scientists to the govt. officals]  are suppressing the truth or they believe it is the truth.  Which is it?  Can't have it both ways since they are in joint agreement.

Simon wrote:
Quote
The word whimsy means that one could espouse this position on a . . . well, on a whim.

BEAR:  So we've lighten the load  of evidence being "quelled"  to something of "whimsy".
Back to the question about this being a possible "little white lie that harms no one" kind of occurance.


 Simon wrote:
Quote
I have seen more whimsical positions expressed in the past year than Carter has liver pills
.

BEAR:   8)  AND,  I stand on the fifth,  your honor.
 
Simon wrote:  
Quote
And no, I do not mean the Russian scientists. Had I meant them, I would have specified them.

BEAR:  You meant those who believe Marie is missing. So, how can we  set aside the Russian scientist?  Must we not include the Russian scientists?

Simon wrote:
Quote
I am glad you know what a conspiracy is. Since I said that I do not regard the Russians as engaged in one, I have no idea what it has to do with my post.

Simon

BEAR:  If they, the Russian officals and the scientsts did indeed "quell" the evidence as many of the American scientists and most historicans believe,  then isn't that part of a conspiracy?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Forum Admin on September 15, 2006, 02:27:07 PM
OK,

I think everyone on both sides is over-reacting. I have reviewed this whole mess. Tania/Bear, of course stalking is an abhorrent criminal act, and not to be encouraged or tolerated. However, if you really read why Annie wrote, even as a joke, it is a CAUTIONARY statement about revealing one's location on the internet if you have fears of being stalked or reason to think you might become a victim.  Bear revealed she was in the San Francisco area, Annie joked that she shouldn't have revealed it...Sometimes a joke is just a joke.

Now, look, the Bay area is HUGE with something like 8 million people living within an easy drive of the baseball stadium, there is no genuine fear of anyone learning anything from such a statement.  Tania, I think you over-reacted, albeit with the best of intentions.  Sometimes in today's society, people start to scream "Stalker!" for incorrect and innocent reasons. Sometimes a wrongly dialed phone number is nothing more sinister than that. Annie was clearly not supporting stalking at all, even by making the joke.

Annie and Helen, you guys also over-reacted and failed to acknowledge Tania's and Bear's genuine caution, especially where children are involved. 

Frankly, I think both sides are right, and both also over reacted and thus also wrong.  I suggest everyone apologize to each other, privately, and return back to topic.

FA.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 15, 2006, 03:43:16 PM
 (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/PoohMarch.jpg)

Forgiveness party at Bears.

PM me to let me know  what you can bring  and I'll let you know the date and time.


 ;D
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Ivan Komarov on September 15, 2006, 04:51:00 PM
Honestly, and I'm not trying to be reinciting a riot or anything, but I don't think we need to worry too much about vague statements like that - firstly because they're pretty vague, and secondly because most psychos get suspended/banned from this site, which I think says something very good for our admins.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 16, 2006, 03:40:53 PM
I PM Ivan my reply.

Thanks everyone for responding about the party.  Haven't heard from Annie and Helen, yet,  but I'm sure they don't want to miss a fun party!

 (http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/PoohMarch.jpg)

So far we have honey, English biscuits,  cool-aide or tea.....,   party hats that look much better than mine and much much more.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 16, 2006, 03:50:07 PM

...[in part]...

Anyhow, I side with the Russians, partially because I think that they had a more convincing argument on the matter, especially in the detailed descriptions of matching remains to profiles of the deceased; I'm not saying, though, that I'm really sure that either is completely right, or that I believe Yurovsky over the other reports and vice versa.

Do you think it is possible that the Russians might have more evidence than just the bones from the mass grave?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: AGRBear on September 16, 2006, 03:56:06 PM
>>The Russians have no reason <<
  ...[[in part]...
to lie.  No one does.  Gill, Stoneking, Sykes, Abramov, Jenkins, Deets, Weedn, Ivanov - none of these people have any motive whatsoever to lie in this because there is absolutely nothing that this would change. 

....

Bev, do you think the Russians are "whimsical" because they believe the missing body from the mass grave is  GD Marie and not GD Anastasia?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: imperial angel on September 22, 2006, 08:45:46 AM
I have always believed that it is Anastasia who is missing based on what I have read, especially Massie's the Final Chapter book. After reading that, you can't have many doubts in my view, that the remains that they have did simply not fit those of what Anastasia's should have been like. Of course, it is easier to say they are those of Anastasia, because that disproves survivors, including that most famous one, Anna Anderson. But there is much more that disproves her, by the way. I think the evidence of the remains simply fits the conclusion it is Marie, plain and simple. And if people want me to quote the books I have read, I will,it isn't just my opinion. I guess I am more interested in their lives than their deaths; but it is important to know that those remains were those of Marie. And getting off subject, I think everyone needs to be respectful of each other on the forum. The world outside is full of disrespect, why do we need to bring it into the forum? We don't need to make joking remarks about people that are basically disrespectful-how would anyone like it of those kinds of remarks were directed at them? I don't think they would, or at least, I know I woudn't.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: miki_nastya on October 17, 2006, 03:15:34 PM
I am sure that nobody survie.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: imperial angel on October 18, 2006, 08:16:57 AM
Well, obviously no one survived. But what we were discussing, is what happened to Marie's body if the bones that were identified as hers were really that of Anastasia. I disagree and I think that her bones have been found, in which case those of the missing grand duchess are those of Anastasia. That doesn't mean anybody survived.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Guinastasia on October 22, 2006, 07:27:06 PM
Well, obviously no one survived. But what we were discussing, is what happened to Marie's body if the bones that were identified as hers were really that of Anastasia. I disagree and I think that her bones have been found, in which case those of the missing grand duchess are those of Anastasia. That doesn't mean anybody survived.

Very very true.  After all, the other missing body is that of Alexei, and I cannot take seriously any claims that he could have survived that night.  The poor boy couldn't even walk, how was he supposed to get away?  That and if the claims of Yurovsky are true-he was shot at point blank range in the head.  You mean to tell me a hemophiliac, who almost bled to death from a groin injury and later from a nosebleed, somehow survives being shot in the head? 

As for the missing grand duchess, I too agree that it's Anastasia, just from reading the Massie book and now Greg's and Penny's recent work.

That and the brutality of the crime-I don't think anyone could have escaped.  Perhaps some of them weren't truly dead when they were transferred, but I don't believe they survived beyond that night.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: imperial angel on October 22, 2006, 07:41:58 PM
Yes, indeed. Practical common sense would tel you that it would have been very hard for the IF to have escaped, any of them. It does seem as well, from what evidence we have, that none of them did. But sometimes people refuse to believe the truth, hence the survivors, as they could be called, or imposters if you are being more truthful. ;)
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 23, 2006, 07:51:58 AM
As for the missing grand duchess, I too agree that it's Anastasia, just from reading the Massie book and now Greg's and Penny's recent work.

Hi Guinastasia,

It is quite impossible to tell whose body is missing, Maria's or Anastasia's. They are just too close in age and too closely related. We will never know for sure, unless by some miracle a confirmed sample of their respective DNA turns up, which of course will never happen. All other methods are not reliable enough, I'm afraid. So there is no reason to even speculate, we simply will never know, no matter what Robert Massie or anyone else feels.

Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 23, 2006, 09:27:11 AM
As for the missing grand duchess, I too agree that it's Anastasia, just from reading the Massie book and now Greg's and Penny's recent work.

BTW, you may not be aware of this, but we are forbidden to mention, or refer to Greg and Penny's recent work on this forum, as per the FA... 
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Guinastasia on October 23, 2006, 02:25:32 PM
We are?
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: imperial angel on October 24, 2006, 10:48:46 AM
Indeed, we cannot refer to it. This should be stated in some thread somewhere. I agree, it is hard to know which body survived- that of Marie or Anastasia. They were close in age, but Anastasia was always much shorter than Marie, I think. This seems to be a factor. We, don't, of course know how much Anastasia might have grown before her death that we don't have record of. But it seems to me that Marie was not the one missing. But the whole thing is difficult, and I just believe what I believe, from what I have read.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: dmitri on June 16, 2007, 01:04:45 PM
Yes it is Marie who is missing. Anastasia is buried in the St.Catherine Chapel of the Cathedral of St.Peter and St.Paul Fortress in St.Petersburg. Missing also in Alexis.
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 17, 2007, 02:36:51 AM
Yes it is Marie who is missing. Anastasia is buried in the St.Catherine Chapel of the Cathedral of St.Peter and St.Paul Fortress in St.Petersburg. Missing also in Alexis.
only if you choose to ignore every other team except for Abramov's ;D
Title: Re: Russian Scientists Claim Marie to be the Female Body Missing From Pigs Meadow Grave
Post by: dmitri on June 18, 2007, 08:47:12 AM
I agree with Robert. This whole thread is rot and should be locked off.