Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => The Russian Revolution => Topic started by: antti on May 28, 2008, 01:47:58 AM

Title: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: antti on May 28, 2008, 01:47:58 AM
I hope this is not too much out of the topic.

http://www.communistcrimes.org/
Title: Re: Communisa crimes
Post by: Zvezda on June 12, 2008, 02:50:48 PM
The credibility of this propaganda web site is dubious, at best. Let's observe some of the leaders of this organanization and its financial sponsors that help to disseminate such venomous hatred:

Jarl Hjalmarson Foundation: Closely linked to Swedish 'Moderate Party', elements of which openly supported the Nazis in the 1930s.
Mart Laar: A former Estonian statesman, the founder of the website, and a businessman.
Title: Re: Communisa crimes
Post by: antti on July 21, 2008, 06:41:32 AM
Oh well Swedish Moderate Party happends to be in power at the moment. Are saying that Sweden has a governement that supports Nazies? And what is wrong with Mart Laar? I thing estonians and people from other Baltic countries might have some first hand knowledge of communist crimes.
Title: Re: Communisa crimes
Post by: Belobog on December 09, 2008, 04:17:10 PM
The crimes of the devilish communists is beyond comparison. Communists infiltrated Western Countries. They are responsible for the decline of Western Civilization. Communists are the ones responsible for the ideas of Social Justice and multiculturalism. In essence they are the reason for the ethnic cleansing of the Sons of Europe from their homeland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ2fMeer5Mw <--Video about this
Title: Re: Communisa crimes
Post by: Felicia on December 25, 2008, 12:51:30 PM
Communist crimes? Year 1937 - with a lots of innocent victims.
The intelligent part of society had been cut off, and what's left?
Title: Re: Communisa crimes
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 20, 2009, 08:46:40 AM
I hope this is not too much out of the topic.

http://www.communistcrimes.org/

Thank you for the link of this very interesting web site!

something is wrong with a link. When you are in the page press refress and it will open.

Fortunately I have no problems with it.
Title: Re: Communisa crimes
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 02, 2009, 12:40:35 AM
The credibility of this propaganda web site is dubious, at best. Let's observe some of the leaders of this organanization and its financial sponsors that help to disseminate such venomous hatred:

Jarl Hjalmarson Foundation: Closely linked to Swedish 'Moderate Party', elements of which openly supported the Nazis in the 1930s.
Mart Laar: A former Estonian statesman, the founder of the website, and a businessman.

Have you considered that Russia's failure to own up to the crimes against its own people is the reason for this organization and website? I don't see dissemination of any hatred, venomous or otherwise.
Title: Re: Communisa crimes
Post by: Zecharia on June 29, 2009, 12:04:54 AM
The credibility of this propaganda web site is dubious, at best. Let's observe some of the leaders of this organanization and its financial sponsors that help to disseminate such venomous hatred:

Jarl Hjalmarson Foundation: Closely linked to Swedish 'Moderate Party', elements of which openly supported the Nazis in the 1930s.
Mart Laar: A former Estonian statesman, the founder of the website, and a businessman.
Is this also propaganda? >:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8119320.stm
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 24, 2009, 09:29:15 AM
Is this also propaganda? >:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8119320.stm

Thank you for the link Zecharia.

The credibility of this propaganda web site is dubious, at best. Let's observe some of the leaders of this organanization and its financial sponsors that help to disseminate such venomous hatred:

Zvezda, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, that organization don't exist for dissiminate such venomous hatred, but on the contrary, the most important objective of this organization is to try to make the world know about crimes and violations of human rights...I don't see anything of negative in this.
If you take a look in the link that Zecharia posted, you can read about the horrible story of Bykivnia, Ukraine...

Under Stalin, about 200,000 people were executed there...200,000... :( :o

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on July 24, 2009, 12:02:46 PM
Perhaps one day we'll see a website devoted to the crimes committed by the Romanovs against the Russian people - the idiotic wars they led them into, the failure to abolish serfdom until the 1860's, the exiling in Siberia, the crushing of attempts to build genuine democracy, the hoarding of wealth and building of huge palaces while the people starved - that kind of thing.  Not that I am or ever would be a Communist - but if I'd been born in Russia circa 1890, had been in the army as it fought and lost against Germany and had relatives working 15 hour days in the factories I might have thought differently.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 24, 2009, 12:57:58 PM
Phil tomaselli, what you said it's true, and your opinion is very welcome and respected, but it's very well know that the Romanovs were not perfect, we all already know about pogroms, wars, murders (and so on...) during the entire Romanov Dynasty...all this was (and it's still) discussed around the forum...this particular topic is dedicated to communist crimes, and they aren't less than those committed during the Romanov dynasty.
So I wonder why not discussing about communist crimes, when it's already discussed about Romanov's crimes around the forum?
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zecharia on July 24, 2009, 09:04:59 PM
Is this also propaganda? >:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8119320.stm

Thank you for the link Zecharia.

The credibility of this propaganda web site is dubious, at best. Let's observe some of the leaders of this organanization and its financial sponsors that help to disseminate such venomous hatred:

Zvezda, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, that organization don't exist for dissiminate such venomous hatred, but on the contrary, the most important objective of this organization is to try to make the world know about crimes and violations of human rights...I don't see anything of negative in this.
If you take a look in the link that Zecharia posted, you can read about the horrible story of Bykivnia, Ukraine...

Under Stalin, about 200,000 people were executed there...200,000... :( :o

You welkome :)

Here is more about communist era:

Around 20 million (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al) to 35 million (citing A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia by Alexander Yakovlev) killed in all, from 1917 to 1991

250,000 executed by the Cheka during the "Red Terror" and Russian civil war. (citing The Cheka: Lenin's Political Police by George Leggett) But it could be much higher (see my sig)

Between 300,000 and 500,000 Cossacks killed or deported in 1919 and 1920 (known as "de-Cossackization"; not sure how many of these deaths overlap with the aforementioned Cheka executions - if at all). (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al)

Between 7.2 to 10.8 million deaths during dekulakization and collectivization - which caused a famine the regime used as a weapon against supposed "class enemies" (citing Stalin and His Hangmen: the Tyrant and Those Who Killed For Him by Donald Rayfield)

Around 700,000 executed during the Great Terror of 1937-38 (citing Stalin: the Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore); this does not include those who were beaten/tortured to death during "interrogation" or deaths in the gulag during this time, which would put it over a million.

Over 1 million Polish citizens deported by November 1940; 30% of whom were dead by 1941 (citing Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore) and 21,857 executed outright (i.e. Katyn) by the NKVD during the Nazi-Soviet pact (citing Autopsy for an Empire by Dimitri Volkogonov)

A total of 34,250 Latvians and around 60,000 Estonians and 75,000 Lithuanians murdered or deported during Nazi-Soviet pact (citing Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore)

An estimated 4.5 million (citing Gulag: A History by Anne Applebaum) to 12 million (citing How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen by John G. Heidenrich) deaths in the Gulag from 1918 to 1956. 

(I'm leaving out Stalin's ethnic cleansing of minorities in the USSR during WWII - Chechens, Crimean Taters, Kalmyks, Volga Germans, etc. - accused of "collaboration" with the Germans. I can't think of a source for that one off the top of my head. I'm sure hundreds of thousands perished though)

Haven't read as much on Mao Tse-tung, but the new biography of him by Jung Chang and Jon Halliday (Mao: The Unknown Story) estimates "well over 70 million" perished as a result of Mao's policies which, if true, makes him the biggest mass killer in history.

Broken down looks like this:
3 million deaths during land reform and the "campaign to suppress counter-revolutionaries"
38 million deaths during "Great Leap Forward"
3 million deaths during the Cultural Revolution
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Alixz on July 25, 2009, 03:25:45 AM
Numbers on such a large scale are hard to digest.  Not one of those purges or deportations and then murders can be said to have benefited the new Soviet Union.  The simply are IMHO crimes against humanity.  I have read that Stalin was a more vicious "Tsar" than any Romanov before him.

By the way - Hi to Phil - it is good to hear from you.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 25, 2009, 05:19:35 AM
Numbers say nothing. Even with 1 man/woman murdered there is a mother, husband/wife, chlidren etc. who is left alone in misery. One can better imagine the grief of 1 dead than talk about so or so many millions having perished. When we look at numbers we forget the individuals who died.

Having said that, my general impression is that the numbers of victims during the last 70 years of the Tsars were multiplied by 100 during 70 years of Communist regime. (rough estimation)
There is another difference imo: the difference between the phenomena opression and terror. The tsars used a great deal of opression which killed many and condemned many but the Communists used state terror. The difference being the former being a reaction to revolutionary activity, coming to a halt when the upheaval stops, and the latter continuing by killing innocent people 'as an example'. This difference in approach accounts for the numbers of victims multipying by 100.

The cause for this 'different approach' lies in the different 'political goals' of the two regimes. The Tsars wanted everything to remain the same and the Communists wanted to change the whole society. Both used violence as a means to obtain their goal.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 25, 2009, 10:27:15 AM
I'm curious to know if anyone have read this book: Cannibal Island, death in a Siberian Gulag by Nicholas Werth... http://www.amazon.com/Cannibal-Island-Siberian-against-Humanity/dp/0691130833

During the spring of 1933, Stalin's police rounded up nearly one hundred thousand people as part of the Soviet regime's "cleansing" of Moscow and Leningrad and deported them to Siberia. Many of the victims were sent to labor camps, but ten thousand of them were dumped in a remote wasteland and left to fend for themselves. Cannibal Island reveals the shocking, grisly truth about their fate.

These people were abandoned on the island of Nazino without food or shelter. Left there to starve and to die, they eventually began to eat each other. Nicolas Werth, a French historian of the Soviet era, reconstructs their gruesome final days using rare archival material from deep inside the Stalinist vaults. Werth skillfully weaves this episode into a broader story about the Soviet frenzy in the 1930s to purge society of all those deemed to be unfit. For Stalin, these undesirables included criminals, opponents of forced collectivization, vagabonds, gypsies, even entire groups in Soviet society such as the "kulaks" and their families. Werth sets his story within the broader social and political context of the period, giving us for the first time a full picture of how Stalin's system of "special villages" worked, how hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens were moved about the country in wholesale mass transportations, and how this savage bureaucratic machinery functioned on the local, regional, and state levels.

Cannibal Island challenges us to confront unpleasant facts not only about Stalin's punitive social controls and his failed Soviet utopia, but about every generation's capacity for brutality--including our own.

Courtesy Princeton University Press.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 25, 2009, 04:08:24 PM
Quote
Around 20 million (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al) to 35 million (citing A Century of Violence in Soviet Russia by Alexander Yakovlev) killed in all, from 1917 to 1991

The Black Book of Communism has been derided by the scholarly community for its factual inaccuracies and revisionist lies. Read how Mark Tauger discredits Werth's account of the 1933 famine, for example.

Citing Yakovlev as though he's an authority is bizarre, for he was not a historian, but was a washed-up politician whose policies brought about a catastrophe for Russia.

Quote
250,000 executed by the Cheka during the "Red Terror" and Russian civil war. (citing The Cheka: Lenin's Political Police by George Leggett) But it could be much higher (see my sig)
About 6000 were executed in the Red Terror in 1918, which does not begin to compare with the White Terror, which murdered some 40,000 people in the Don Region under Krasnov's gangs. Kolchak's hordes shot about 25,000 people just in the Ekaterinburg region.

Quote
Between 300,000 and 500,000 Cossacks killed or deported in 1919 and 1920 (known as "de-Cossackization"; not sure how many of these deaths overlap with the aforementioned Cheka executions - if at all). (citing The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression by Stephane Courtois et al)
The Black Book of Communism, which I showed to be an unreliable source, does not provide explanations for these dubious statistics. Scholarly works on the subject of deportations show that only some 40,000 Cossacks from the Terek region were resettled in parts of Ukraine; their land was distributed to poor Cossacks and indigenous Caucasians.

Quote
Between 7.2 to 10.8 million deaths during dekulakization and collectivization - which caused a famine the regime used as a weapon against supposed "class enemies" (citing Stalin and His Hangmen: the Tyrant and Those Who Killed For Him by Donald Rayfield)
Rayfield, a professor of literature, is not a historian with competence to analyze an research Russian history. His semi-fictional book is not an academic work, but is geared largely aimed at a pop audience. Estimates on the death toll on the famine are about 4 to 5 million. As experts such as Mark Tauger show, the famine was by no means "used as a weapon", but was largely caused by natural disasters.

Quote
Over 1 million Polish citizens deported by November 1940; 30% of whom were dead by 1941 (citing Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore) and 21,857 executed outright (i.e. Katyn) by the NKVD during the Nazi-Soviet pact (citing Autopsy for an Empire by Dimitri Volkogonov)
Scholarly works on the subject show that about 400,000 Poles were resettled in other parts of Russia in 1939-40. Almost all of them were released following the reconciliation between Russia and the London-based Polish regime in 1941. Citing Volkogonov  is inappropriate because he was not a professional historian, but was a member of some kind of military institute.


Quote
A total of 34,250 Latvians and around 60,000 Estonians and 75,000 Lithuanians murdered or deported during Nazi-Soviet pact (citing Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar by Simon Sebag Montefiore)
Those figures are too high, as scholarly work on the subject shows that about 10,000 just from Estonia were deported. Montefiore is not some kind of authority on the subject or Russian history in general.

Quote
An estimated 4.5 million (citing Gulag: A History by Anne Applebaum) to 12 million (citing How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen by John G. Heidenrich) deaths in the Gulag from 1918 to 1956. 

Applebaum is not a historian, but is a hack for liberal circles in Washington. Her commentary on Russian politics has been extensively ridiculed for its hypocrisy and innuendo. Research by scholars such as Zemskov showed that about a million people were killed in the labor camps in a span of twenty years. Most of these deaths occurred during the war.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 25, 2009, 06:22:24 PM
Quote
Under Stalin, about 200,000 people were executed there...200,000
The number of estimated bodies at Bykovinia is about 6000. During the war, no less than 7000 people were shot and buried by the German occupiers.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 26, 2009, 05:20:02 AM


The review under the url shows that The Black Book is reliable.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/jspesreview.htm
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 26, 2009, 05:59:09 AM
More links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_rebellion
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opstand_in_de_Poetilov-fabriek (in Dutch)
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 26, 2009, 07:21:20 AM
Quote
Under Stalin, about 200,000 people were executed there...200,000
The number of estimated bodies at Bykovinia is about 6000. During the war, no less than 7000 people were shot and buried by the German occupiers.

The article it's from BBC, and I think that it's a reliable source, and in it it's written that about 200,000 people were executed, however, 200,000 or 6000 is the same, even if just one person would have been murdered, it would have been an horrible crime anyway.
So, I blame not just communism, but Nazism too...and as I said, I blame Tsars too for their faults.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 26, 2009, 04:32:19 PM
Quote
and in it it's written that about 200,000 people were executed
This book (http://books.google.com/books?id=g_mZl5_KaCwC&pg=PA21&dq=Bykivnia+bodies+official) cites sources saying that the estimates of repressed people buried in Bykivnia ranges from 6,329 to 6,783. During the war, the German occupiers shot and buried at least 7000 in the region.

Quote
The review under the url shows that The Black Book is reliable.
The book is not taken seriously by the academic community. Its methodology and factual inaccuracies have been thoroughly exposed by scholars. Courtois in particular engages in dangerous historical revisionism for the purpose of blurring Vichy and Nazi crimes. For example, the war criminal Papon attempted to introduce the Black Book as evidence during his trial. The book falsifies history with its attribution of one million deaths to communists while ignoring the fact that the war was attributable to U.S. aggression, as these scholars (http://books.google.com/books?id=Tlx9JlF-q20C&pg=PA12&dq=Black+Book+of+Communism+partisan&lr=#PPA13,M1) points out.

Also read how Professor Mark Tauger (http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger,%20Chapter%20for%20Roter%20Holocaust%20book%20b.pdf) totally discredits Werth's account of the 1933 famine.

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_rebellion
I could just as easily point to the partisan movement against Kolchak in Siberia and Denikin in the south. Partisans in Siberia liberated vast regions from the White Guard even before the approach of the Red Army.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 26, 2009, 06:30:37 PM
@Zvezda

What do 'these scholars' point out. I can't see nothing concerning The Black Book on your link.
Tauger seemed neutral en well informed. This is only about a small part of the book however. I am still not convinced that The Black book is unreliable.

Please post some links to sources of the 'partisan movement against Kolchak' etc. Better still: open a new tread on this subject since this one is specifically about Communist Crimes.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 27, 2009, 04:40:39 AM
Tauger also has his critics.

http://www.artukraine.com/famineart/famineden.htm
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 27, 2009, 07:08:37 AM
This book (http://books.google.com/books?id=g_mZl5_KaCwC&pg=PA21&dq=Bykivnia+bodies+official) cites sources saying that the estimates of repressed people buried in Bykivnia ranges from 6,329 to 6,783. During the war, the German occupiers shot and buried at least 7000 in the region.

Thank you!, I'm sure that it is an excellent book (and I will try to order a copy for myself), but as I said in my previous post, even if just one person would have been murdered, it would have been an horrible crime anyway...and in the Bykivnia area were murdered 6,329 to 6,783 peoples, so we are still talking about a terrible mass murder, unfortunately, after replicated during the German occupation.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on July 28, 2009, 03:46:07 AM
Excuse me for saying so, but I absolutely must say so - Zvezda has already in numerous posts in this forum revealed herself to be a dyed-in-the-wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist, of the displaced variety (i.e., she lives not in Russia itself but in one of its former, now independent republics, where she constitutes a distinct minority, the former ruling minority, no less). The displaced variety is the worst, because many of them like Zvezda are hankering after a revival of the former Soviet empire. And any excuse will do.

Let's face it, please, at long last, the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era. Their regimes perpetrated the mass murder of civilians, plain and simple. Innocent men, women, and children died in the tens of millions as a result of sick ideologies, both Communist and Nazi, run amok. Zvezda wants to convince us all that the Soviet crimes against humanity weren't so bad after all - I suppose she'd even blame the Katyn massacre of Polish officers on the Germans if she possibly could - but make no mistake, she is not being honest in her posts. She is being completely false. She is part of the Big Lie. And I really hate to say it, but I can't understand why this person is still allowed to post in this forum - if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler - on the contrary, it was a "mere" one million, and Hitler didn't know about it - then I think this person would be banned from the forum forever. And rightly so. But somehow Zvezda gets away with her completely irresponsible, even morally reprehensible statements and blatantly false conclusions. It's a mystery to me why she is allowed to remain here. Well, not such a mystery, really. Her very outrageousness stimulates discussion and debate. And most Westerners, no matter how sensitive they might be to Lenin and Stalin's crimes, are still not so sensitive that they regard them as the equivalent or even near-equivalent of Hitler's. Quel dommage. Kak zhal'. More's the pity. And so on. It really makes me sick.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 28, 2009, 11:17:32 AM
Quote
the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era.
That amounts to really offensive revisionism which slanders the people of Russia. Nothing equivalent to Auschwitz, Babi Yar, or the siege of Leningrad was perpetrated by Russia.
Quote
if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler

I have said nothing equivalent to the lies of how six million Jews were not systematically exterminated. For you to claim the contrary is outrageous.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zecharia on July 28, 2009, 07:38:36 PM
Excuse me for saying so, but I absolutely must say so - Zvezda has already in numerous posts in this forum revealed herself to be a dyed-in-the-wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist, of the displaced variety (i.e., she lives not in Russia itself but in one of its former, now independent republics, where she constitutes a distinct minority, the former ruling minority, no less). The displaced variety is the worst, because many of them like Zvezda are hankering after a revival of the former Soviet empire. And any excuse will do.

Let's face it, please, at long last, the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era. Their regimes perpetrated the mass murder of civilians, plain and simple. Innocent men, women, and children died in the tens of millions as a result of sick ideologies, both Communist and Nazi, run amok. Zvezda wants to convince us all that the Soviet crimes against humanity weren't so bad after all - I suppose she'd even blame the Katyn massacre of Polish officers on the Germans if she possibly could - but make no mistake, she is not being honest in her posts. She is being completely false. She is part of the Big Lie. And I really hate to say it, but I can't understand why this person is still allowed to post in this forum - if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler - on the contrary, it was a "mere" one million, and Hitler didn't know about it - then I think this person would be banned from the forum forever. And rightly so. But somehow Zvezda gets away with her completely irresponsible, even morally reprehensible statements and blatantly false conclusions. It's a mystery to me why she is allowed to remain here. Well, not such a mystery, really. Her very outrageousness stimulates discussion and debate. And most Westerners, no matter how sensitive they might be to Lenin and Stalin's crimes, are still not so sensitive that they regard them as the equivalent or even near-equivalent of Hitler's. Quel dommage. Kak zhal'. More's the pity. And so on. It really makes me sick.

I think ZVEZDA is provokater :(
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Terence on July 28, 2009, 11:51:09 PM
Excuse me for saying so, but I absolutely must say so - Zvezda has already in numerous posts in this forum revealed herself to be a dyed-in-the-wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist..

Let's face it, please, at long last, the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era. Their regimes perpetrated the mass murder of civilians, plain and simple. Innocent men, women, and children died in the tens of millions as a result of sick ideologies...

Well said E.

T
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 29, 2009, 07:55:56 AM
Quote
the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era.
That amounts to really offensive revisionism which slanders the people of Russia. Nothing equivalent to Auschwitz, Babi Yar, or the siege of Leningrad was perpetrated by Russia.
Quote
if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler

I have said nothing equivalent to the lies of how six million Jews were not systematically exterminated. For you to claim the contrary is outrageous.

First: you are confusing the people of Russia with the Soviet government. In another thread you were confusing Russian culture with Soviet culture. I think this is the REAL slander to the people of Russia.

Second: Nazism and Communism were both ideologies who declared state terror to be one of their official policies. Their goals were different only in a certain degree: Nazis wanted to wipe out other races 'in favour' of the Arians and Communists wanted to wipe out other social classes 'in favour' of the proletariat. Without denying many differences between the two these are certainly 2 common features. All right, you are not disputing the Holocaust here, but you are certainly denying the seriousness of the Communist crimes.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 29, 2009, 12:24:55 PM
Quote
Communists wanted to wipe out other social classes 'in favour' of the proletariat.
This is not true. The policy of the Communist Party had always been to strengthen the alliance between the workers, peasants, and progressive sections of the intelligentsia. When the working-class fights against the ruling class, it seeks an alliance with many small and middle capitalist proprietors.

Quote
First: you are confusing the people of Russia with the Soviet government. In another thread you were confusing Russian culture with Soviet culture. I think this is the REAL slander to the people of Russia.
There's no such thing as Soviet culture or Soviet nationality. In the Soviet Union there were 15 countries and dozens of nationalities, each of which was profoundly influenced by cultural developments during soviet power. The Soviet era, the golden age of Russia, cannot possibly be isolated from the nation's history and culture.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 29, 2009, 06:33:25 PM
Quote
Communists wanted to wipe out other social classes 'in favour' of the proletariat.
This is not true. The policy of the Communist Party had always been to strengthen the alliance between the workers, peasants, and progressive sections of the intelligentsia. When the working-class fights against the ruling class, it seeks an alliance with many small and middle capitalist proprietors.

Quote
First: you are confusing the people of Russia with the Soviet government. In another thread you were confusing Russian culture with Soviet culture. I think this is the REAL slander to the people of Russia.
There's no such thing as Soviet culture or Soviet nationality. In the Soviet Union there were 15 countries and dozens of nationalities, each of which was profoundly influenced by cultural developments during soviet power. The Soviet era, the golden age of Russia, cannot possibly be isolated from the nation's history and culture.

Communism was all about ideology. Marx concentrated purely on the revolution of the proletariat, as one of the social classes. He especially mentions that all the power goes to the proletariat. This means: total destruction of all other social classes. Which is exactly what was being done during Lenin and Stalin. Total destruction of the classes and survival only for those who wanted to adept. Death or labor camps for those who didn't want to adept in the eyes of the communist government.

They made no alliances with other classes. The only time they made alliances was the temporary arrangements they made with other political parties in the Soviet before oktober 1917. But this was only by convenience.

Question for you: When the workingclass fights against the ruling class...etc. Is this a  hypothetical question by you??.. When did the working class actually fight the ruling class. There was no such thing in Russia. During the oktoberrevolution everything was organized by the communists. Furthermore the masses were being misled by the communists with their slogan peace, bread and land.

The second point:
In the Soviet Union artists were not free to perform their art as they wanted to. This was prohibited by the government. Art was to follow the Soviet guidelines in the kind of manner as it was in Nazi Germany. It had to radiate the party ideology.
You call the Soviet era the golden age of Russia. I disagree on this very much. The highlight of Russian art was the periode before 1917. After the revolution many artists fled from Russia. Late 19th and early 20th century were the richest period in Russian cultural history. Only think of the internationally best known writers. By the way, I am not interested in Pravda writers.

Does this add up to the Communist crimes we are describing here in this thread?: Yes because, when you kill anyone's creative powers you kill that person in a way
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on July 29, 2009, 09:26:48 PM
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the Nazis and Soviets were interchangeable in moral terms during this historical era.
That amounts to really offensive revisionism which slanders the people of Russia. Nothing equivalent to Auschwitz, Babi Yar, or the siege of Leningrad was perpetrated by Russia.
Quote
if there were a Holocaust revisionist here who was citing David Irving to the effect that 6 million Jews did not perish under Hitler

I have said nothing equivalent to the lies of how six million Jews were not systematically exterminated. For you to claim the contrary is outrageous.

Zvezda, I find it very interesting that you didn't dispute my main points: 1) that you are a "dyed-in-the wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist" and 2) an ethnic Russian living in a former Soviet republic and hankering after the so-called glorious days of the Soviet empire. Which would certainly explain why you regard the Soviet period as a "golden age" when most knowledgeable people in this world recognize it was a historical digression, a mistake, indeed, a new Dark Ages, completely unnecessary, which put Russia and its subject peoples back a good century or more in terms of progress. Why does Russia to this day have no manufacturing base to speak of? Why does she lag so far behind other major powers in the production of such basic items as computers, televisions, or electrical appliances? In fact, why is it so unusual to see a label that says "Made in Russia" and why is it unheard of for anyone to buy that product when it does have such a label? Face it, your country produces almost nothing but oil and natural gas, natural resources that are a pure given, not something you have actually achieved by dint of technological prowess or entrepreneurial talent. Why do you think that is? Perhaps because by the 1970s the Soviet Union had already fallen so far behind the West in terms of technological and industrial development that its successor state Russia still, for a variety of reasons, cannot catch up?

Moreover, it is hardly a slander to say that Soviet crimes were the equivalent of Nazi crimes. I should think the very crime I mentioned, the brutal Soviet massacre of Polish officers and others at Katyn, suffices to refute your argument. And that's just one crime out of tens of thousands of similar crimes. We all know the Soviet secret police butchered their political prisoners held in Ukraine and the Baltic States as the German armies advanced. We all know about the mass graves unearthed all over central Russia and Siberia in the late 1980s and early 1990s, the result of Stalin's reign of terror. There are myriad books published every year about the crimes against humanity committed under the regimes of Lenin and Stalin. You are singing to deaf ears. The Communist movement is dead. Particularly in Russia, by the way. As I recall, in their political maneuverings Yeltsin and Putin between them managed pretty much to destroy it.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on July 29, 2009, 10:17:09 PM
Zvezda, here is what happened to Russia’s greatest writers during your so-called “golden age” of the Soviet empire:

Nikolai Gumilev, famous poet and husband of the even more famous poet Anna Akhmatova, shot by the Bolsheviks in 1921.

Anna Akhmatova, author of the epic poem “Requiem” (about the victims of Stalinism) and “Poem without a Hero,” persecuted by Soviet authorities throughout her life (her son, her only child, Lev, was also arrested and imprisoned under Stalin).

Osip Mandelshtam, perhaps the greatest poet of the twentieth century, Russian or otherwise, died of starvation or typhus or both in a Soviet concentration camp in December 1938 (this after enduring years of official persecution, arrests, and interrogations).

Marina Tsvetaeva, like Mandelshtam, Akhmatova, and Boris Pasternak, one of the leading Russian poets of the twentieth century, committed suicide in 1941, after returning from exile abroad and finding herself ostracized by the Soviet literary community, which was by now thoroughly terrorized by Stalin.

Evgeny Zamyatin, author of the dystopian science fiction novel We (an inspiration for George Orwell’s 1984), arrested numerous times under Lenin’s regime, finally permitted to leave the Soviet Union in 1931.

Nikolai Klyuev, well-known poet, shot by the Soviets in 1937.

Isaac Babel, probably the most famous author of Russian-Jewish extraction ever, who penned Red Cavalry, shot by the Soviets (on the direct order of Stalin) in 1940.

Boris Pasternak, famous poet and author of Doctor Zhivago, hounded by Soviet authorities after the publication of this novel in Italy in 1957 (he died in 1960).

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Nobel Prize wining author of One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, Matryona’s Home, Cancer Ward, and numerous other works, was the victim of a failed assassination attempt by the KGB in 1971 (after Soviet authorities learned that he was working on an expose of the Leninist-Stalinist concentration camps, the work that later became known as The Gulag Archipelago). Deported forcibly from the Soviet Union in 1974. Spent the remainder of the Soviet regime in exile in the United States.

This is just a sample, dealing with the most famous. Plenty of less famous, less prominent writers also suffered under the Bolsheviks. I’m sure that other people coud provide other examples. But isn't this list horrible enough?
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Alixz on July 30, 2009, 09:39:24 AM
This is not at all my area of expertise, but I do think that Bolsheviks and Communists are not the same or interchangeable.  All though both were political parties, I don't believe that they had exactly the same ideologies.  They may have grown from the same source, the teachings of Marx and Engels through the interpretation of Lenin and then Stalin.

However, in the west we were not taught too much about the Soviet Union which was in full control when I was in school and was reaching its apogee with the launch of Sputnik in the end of the 1950s.

The "Cold War" kept us from getting too much information and there were no 24 hour streaming news casts are there are today.

Am I wrong in my belief that the two terms are not interchangeable?  When did the Bolsheviks actually become the Communist Party?  Or did the Bolshevik Party just slowly lose members as the Communist Party became the stronger of the two?
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 30, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
There's no such thing as Soviet culture or Soviet nationality. In the Soviet Union there were 15 countries and dozens of nationalities, each of which was profoundly influenced by cultural developments during soviet power. The Soviet era, the golden age of Russia, cannot possibly be isolated from the nation's history and culture.

As already said by Sergei Witte and Elisabeth, I have to disagree with you...I don't know how you can call the Soviet era as the golden age of Russia, do you really think that the time of Stalin, gulags, KGB and so on was a golden age?...sincerely I don't see nothing of positive in all this.
I'm not saying that the Soviet Union wasn't a super power because it was indeed a super power, but I think that is not correct to call the Soviet era a the golden age.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 30, 2009, 11:49:39 AM
This is not at all my area of expertise, but I do think that Bolsheviks and Communists are not the same or interchangeable.  All though both were political parties, I don't believe that they had exactly the same ideologies.  They may have grown from the same source, the teachings of Marx and Engels through the interpretation of Lenin and then Stalin.

However, in the west we were not taught too much about the Soviet Union which was in full control when I was in school and was reaching its apogee with the launch of Sputnik in the end of the 1950s.

The "Cold War" kept us from getting too much information and there were no 24 hour streaming news casts are there are today.

Am I wrong in my belief that the two terms are not interchangeable?  When did the Bolsheviks actually become the Communist Party?  Or did the Bolshevik Party just slowly lose members as the Communist Party became the stronger of the two?

They are interchangeable. It is simply that bolshevism was later called Communism. They share the same ideology that revolution was needed to change the conditions of the laborers. On the other side were the Social Democrats or Mensheviks, who wanted to change the system from within.

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Alixz on July 30, 2009, 01:14:04 PM
Thank you for the information.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 30, 2009, 04:37:33 PM
[edit] From Bolshevism to Communism
In 1952 at XIX Party Congress Stalin declared: "There are no more Mensheviks. Why should we call ourselves Bolsheviks? We are not the majority, but the whole party." According to his suggestion, the Communist party was renamed the Communist Party of Soviet Union. Since that time, the term Bolshevik has been regarded as obsolete, and relevant only to the pre-Revolutionary times and the Russian Civil War.
[from Wikipedia]
 A very simplistic explanation.
 There are many definiitions and layers of thought on the  subject.
 Technically, communisim is an ecconomic policy, whereas bolshevism is a political action. In theory, the former can function under any political structure, and does, on small scale, partuculary in religious communities.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 30, 2009, 05:45:20 PM
[edit] From Bolshevism to Communism
In 1952 at XIX Party Congress Stalin declared: "There are no more Mensheviks. Why should we call ourselves Bolsheviks? We are not the majority, but the whole party." According to his suggestion, the Communist party was renamed the Communist Party of Soviet Union. Since that time, the term Bolshevik has been regarded as obsolete, and relevant only to the pre-Revolutionary times and the Russian Civil War.
[from Wikipedia]
 A very simplistic explanation.
 There are many definitions and layers of thought on the  subject.
 Technically, communisim is an ecconomic policy, whereas bolshevism is a political action. In theory, the former can function under any political structure, and does, on small scale, partuculary in religious communities.


I believe that for purposes of discussion of 20th century Russian history, especially that of 1917 and later - that Bolshevik and Communist should be considered interchangeable.

Prior to 1917, when there was such a thing as a Menshivik - which despite the meaning of the term - were really the majority of Russian Communists prior to the Revolution - the terms are not interchangeable.

And, the farther one moves in time from the Revolution, the term Bolshevik seems more and more anachronistic. Except, the kind of ham handed politics practiced by Bolsheviks in Russia is not necessarily how it was with Communists outside of Russia.

Just my two kopecks.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 30, 2009, 05:48:36 PM
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Zvezda, I find it very interesting that you didn't dispute my main points: 1) that you are a "dyed-in-the wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist" and 2) an ethnic Russian living in a former Soviet republic and hankering after the so-called glorious days of the Soviet empire.
I don't understand why you continue to make things up about my background. I have roots in the former USSR, but I am not of Russian nationality and I live in America.

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Which would certainly explain why you regard the Soviet period as a "golden age" when most knowledgeable people in this world recognize it was a historical digression, a mistake, indeed, a new Dark Ages, completely unnecessary, which put Russia and its subject peoples back a good century or more in terms of progress.
I don't understand how a dogmatic western liberal is qualified to make observations about live in the Soviet period and its effect on Russia's development. Talk to any middle-aged person from Russia, and they'll tell you that life in the Soviet period was far superior to the catastrophe the country's endured since 1990. The Soviet period, particularly the period from Brezhnev to Andropov, was the best time in the country's history.

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Why does Russia to this day have no manufacturing base to speak of?
Because Russia's economy was destroyed by capitalists in the 1990s, led by the IMF and World Bank. Just in 1992, the country's economy plunged by about 50 percent.

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Face it, your country produces almost nothing but oil and natural gas, natural resources that are a pure given, not something you have actually achieved by dint of technological prowess or entrepreneurial talent.
I don't know much about economics, but you are exaggerating in your evaluation of Russia's economy. Russian arms and aviation, for example, are just as good if not superior to what is in the West. My father drove a Volga Gaz when he was a young man in the 1970s, and it was an excellent car.

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the brutal Soviet massacre of Polish officers and others at Katyn, suffices to refute your argument.
Polish prisoners were not entirely innocent and it would have been justified to punish them in some form, but it was excessive to have executed them. The killing of the Polish prisoners was analagous, if not more humane, to the aggression Poland unleashed against Russia and Ukraine in 1920.

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We all know the Soviet secret police butchered their political prisoners held in Ukraine and the Baltic States as the German armies advanced.
Again, the people held in prisons were not entirely innocent and it was in the interest of the country to get rid of future Nazi collaborators than to let them flee and join the enemy's side.

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The Communist movement is dead. Particularly in Russia, by the way.
Actually, the Communists in Russia are the most viable opposition in Russia.

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Soviet era as the golden age of Russia, do you really think that the time of Stalin, gulags, KGB and so on was a golden age?...sincerely I don't see nothing of positive in all this.
The country experienced unprecedented economic, social, and cultural progress. The soviet system functioned for the interests of the people, not for the owners of capital and international monopolies. People sought and lived meaningful, productive lives in the interest of strengthening the country's development and their own standard of living. There was genuine democracy in the soviet era, as one cannot get fired from a job under socialism for criticizing management. You wouldn't see homeless people on the streets of Moscow as you do today or sleazy, filthy products of the West such as discotheques, night clubs, and McDonalds.

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, here is what happened to Russia’s greatest writers during your so-called “golden age” of the Soviet empire:
Few of those authors you named produced works of artistic quality and inspirational content. As for genuinely great Russian writers, Gorky, Mayakovsky, Sholokhov, Tolstoy, Fadeyev, Ostrovsky, Fedin, Georgi Markov, Leonov, Bednyi, Serafimovich, just to name a few, achieved great critical success during the soviet era.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RichC on July 30, 2009, 05:50:23 PM
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and in it it's written that about 200,000 people were executed
This book (http://books.google.com/books?id=g_mZl5_KaCwC&pg=PA21&dq=Bykivnia+bodies+official) cites sources saying that the estimates of repressed people buried in Bykivnia ranges from 6,329 to 6,783. During the war, the German occupiers shot and buried at least 7000 in the region.


Zvezda, the book that you quote, above, The Voices of the Dead, actually says that researchers have already identified over 10,000 names of those executed despite official estimates of 6,329 - 6,783.  It also goes on to say in the next sentence, "Some suspect that as many as 50,000 - 150,000 are buried there."    The book you cite does not appear to offer a great deal of support for the lower numbers you favor...

I think it's creepy that you still use the word "repressed" in your posts as a euphemism for killing.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 31, 2009, 12:09:16 AM
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Zvezda, the book that you quote, above, The Voices of the Dead, actually says that researchers have already identified over 10,000 names of those executed despite official estimates of 6,329 - 6,783.  It also goes on to say in the next sentence, "Some suspect that as many as 50,000 - 150,000 are buried there."    The book you cite does not appear to offer a great deal of support for the lower numbers you favor...
I am not interested in the conclusions of the author or his interpretations of data. He doesn't make observations as to which estimate is correct, but cites various sources. There is no basis for these clearly inflated estimates of 200,000, but the figures are probably in the 6000 - 10,000 range.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on July 31, 2009, 03:43:30 AM
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Zvezda, I find it very interesting that you didn't dispute my main points: 1) that you are a "dyed-in-the wool Stalinist and Russian nationalist" and 2) an ethnic Russian living in a former Soviet republic and hankering after the so-called glorious days of the Soviet empire.
I don't understand why you continue to make things up about my background. I have roots in the former USSR, but I am not of Russian nationality and I live in America.

Quote
Which would certainly explain why you regard the Soviet period as a "golden age" when most knowledgeable people in this world recognize it was a historical digression, a mistake, indeed, a new Dark Ages, completely unnecessary, which put Russia and its subject peoples back a good century or more in terms of progress.
I don't understand how a dogmatic western liberal is qualified to make observations about live in the Soviet period and its effect on Russia's development. Talk to any middle-aged person from Russia, and they'll tell you that life in the Soviet period was far superior to the catastrophe the country's endured since 1990. The Soviet period, particularly the period from Brezhnev to Andropov, was the best time in the country's history.

Quote
Why does Russia to this day have no manufacturing base to speak of?
Because Russia's economy was destroyed by capitalists in the 1990s, led by the IMF and World Bank. Just in 1992, the country's economy plunged by about 50 percent.

Quote
Face it, your country produces almost nothing but oil and natural gas, natural resources that are a pure given, not something you have actually achieved by dint of technological prowess or entrepreneurial talent.
I don't know much about economics, but you are exaggerating in your evaluation of Russia's economy. Russian arms and aviation, for example, are just as good if not superior to what is in the West. My father drove a Volga Gaz when he was a young man in the 1970s, and it was an excellent car.

Quote
the brutal Soviet massacre of Polish officers and others at Katyn, suffices to refute your argument.
Polish prisoners were not entirely innocent and it would have been justified to punish them in some form, but it was excessive to have executed them. The killing of the Polish prisoners was analagous, if not more humane, to the aggression Poland unleashed against Russia and Ukraine in 1920.

Quote
We all know the Soviet secret police butchered their political prisoners held in Ukraine and the Baltic States as the German armies advanced.
Again, the people held in prisons were not entirely innocent and it was in the interest of the country to get rid of future Nazi collaborators than to let them flee and join the enemy's side.

Quote
The Communist movement is dead. Particularly in Russia, by the way.
Actually, the Communists in Russia are the most viable opposition in Russia.

Quote
Soviet era as the golden age of Russia, do you really think that the time of Stalin, gulags, KGB and so on was a golden age?...sincerely I don't see nothing of positive in all this.
The country experienced unprecedented economic, social, and cultural progress. The soviet system functioned for the interests of the people, not for the owners of capital and international monopolies. People sought and lived meaningful, productive lives in the interest of strengthening the country's development and their own standard of living. There was genuine democracy in the soviet era, as one cannot get fired from a job under socialism for criticizing management. You wouldn't see homeless people on the streets of Moscow as you do today or sleazy, filthy products of the West such as discotheques, night clubs, and McDonalds.

Quote
, here is what happened to Russia’s greatest writers during your so-called “golden age” of the Soviet empire:
Few of those authors you named produced works of artistic quality and inspirational content. As for genuinely great Russian writers, Gorky, Mayakovsky, Sholokhov, Tolstoy, Fadeyev, Ostrovsky, Fedin, Georgi Markov, Leonov, Bednyi, Serafimovich, just to name a few, achieved great critical success during the soviet era.


Fine, Zvezda, we'll just believe that you're a Russian living in the US, for the nonce, even though in the past you have inadvertently given away that you are of Russian extraction and at some point at least lived in the former Armenian republic.

You ask, how dare I speak of what the Soviet Union was like? For numerous reasons. First, I am an educated person and I have read the scholarly literature. Second, I am married to a person who grew up in the former Soviet Union and I am friends with numerous Russians who now live in the United States. Third, I actually visited the Soviet Union in July and August 1991, and let me tell you, it was the most dysfunctional society I have ever seen. You will blame this on Gorbachev, of course, but the ruination and general disarray of both Moscow and St. Petersburg had obviously taken much longer than a mere six years to come into existence. The USSR represented culture shock in a big way for American college students back in the 80s and early 90s. Just to give one example, the state-owned stores offered next to nothing in the way of variety, sometimes (as in the summer of 1991) the shelves were simply bare, and everyone knows that Soviet citizens had to queue for goods imported from the West that were all the more valuable because they were otherwise simply unattainable in the Soviet Union.

But I don't know why I bother with you, frankly, because you seem to live in a kind of dreamland, a never never land of nostalgia, all your hopes pinned on some resurrection of the Soviet empire - complete with enemies or potential enemies who deserve to be shot, I suppose? Well, Zvezda, please explain to me why, if you live in the United States and you evince the sort of anti-democratic, indeed anti-American sentiments that you do - tell me why the United States government shouldn't just arrest you and shoot you as a potential enemy? According to your logic, we'd be perfectly within our rights. After all, you are preaching Communism and Russian imperialism and both are detrimental to American interests.

But then, nothing you write makes any sense from a rational point of view, only from an ideological one. Speaking of which, Communism is dead in the former USSR, everyone knows it apparently except you. Limonov represents the last vestiges of that dead religion and has turned himself into a living caricature allied with the Reds. Because he knows as apparently everybody but you knows that the political wave of the future in Russia is fascism. I think you might actually find a home there, Zvezda. Demagogues like Aleksandr Dugin preach about the mightiness of the Soviet empire and the need for Russia to reassert itself against its external and internal enemies (foreigners, in other words, or ethnic minorities). Maybe you could become a Eurasianist neo-fascist like him?
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zecharia on July 31, 2009, 05:30:01 AM
Quote
Zvezda, the book that you quote, above, The Voices of the Dead, actually says that researchers have already identified over 10,000 names of those executed despite official estimates of 6,329 - 6,783.  It also goes on to say in the next sentence, "Some suspect that as many as 50,000 - 150,000 are buried there."    The book you cite does not appear to offer a great deal of support for the lower numbers you favor...
I am not interested in the conclusions of the author or his interpretations of data. He doesn't make observations as to which estimate is correct, but cites various sources. There is no basis for these clearly inflated estimates of 200,000, but the figures are probably in the 6000 - 10,000 range.
Can you tell me, how old you are?  If your father drove a car in 1970, your family must be rich. Why would they escape from great Soviet republic ::)
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on July 31, 2009, 06:48:44 AM
The country experienced unprecedented economic, social, and cultural progress. The soviet system functioned for the interests of the people, not for the owners of capital and international monopolies. People sought and lived meaningful, productive lives in the interest of strengthening the country's development and their own standard of living. There was genuine democracy in the soviet era, as one cannot get fired from a job under socialism for criticizing management. You wouldn't see homeless people on the streets of Moscow as you do today or sleazy, filthy products of the West such as discotheques, night clubs, and McDonalds.

Ok, basically you're saying that the Soviet system was right and that the west was wrong, I received the message.  ;), I have no doubt that the western culture wasn't totally right, but you said that there was a genuine democracy in the Soviet era, and I'm sorry but this is wrong.
Also, are you sure that the number of homeless people of modern day Russia is higher than the number of homeless during the Soviet era?...hmmm, I have a doubt about this.  :)
The Soviet Union denied the existence of homeless within its territories, but I don't believe in this.

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 31, 2009, 12:38:19 PM
Answer to Zvezda post from Today at 12:48:36 AM (reply # 39)

So you said the Polish prisoners were not entirely innocent. So what were they guilty of, of BREATHING AIR???? The excuse that they we killed because of the war in 1920 is nonsense. Such insinuations are utterly disgusting!! The excuse you use that the Soviets wanted to get rid of future Nazi collaborators is likewise disgusting. How can anybody possibly charge anyone with FUTURE acts. This only proves that possible crimes committed by the Poles had nothing to do with the murders. Stalin just wanted a weaker Polish army and therefore exterminated this group as another 'enemy of the Soviet state'. Thus business as usual in 'dear old Soviet state'.

 You say: The country experienced unprecedented economic, social, and cultural progress. The soviet system functioned for the interests of the people, not for the owners of capital and international monopolies. People sought and lived meaningful, productive lives in the interest of strengthening the country's development and their own standard of living. There was genuine democracy in the soviet era, as one cannot get fired from a job under socialism for criticizing management. You wouldn't see homeless people on the streets of Moscow as you do today or sleazy, filthy products of the West such as discotheques, night clubs, and McDonalds

So you say that the reason that the Soviets denied their citizens the right to travel abroad, had nothing to do with their fear of them fleeing from the country and asking asylum in western countries? Is that why they had to build a wall around Berlin, to prevent their people from fleeing to the West? I think this alone proves the ridicule of your remarks.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on July 31, 2009, 01:25:14 PM
You know, I'm beginning to find Zvezda a bore. At first, given the overall bizarre quality of his/her views, I thought s/he was some kind of weird plant from the Russian secret service, but her views don't even coincide with those of Putin's government (which has taken a definite stance against Lenin), so now I'm starting to think that s/he is merely one of our old friends Rsskiya or Dashkova in disguise. What could be more (in)appropriate at this juncture than a visit from old friends?

For all you newcomers out there who are not acquainted with Rsskiya and Dashkova, they were I believe the same person, or at the very least worked in concert to argue against every anti-Soviet, anti-Communist position taken in this forum. It was a charade, basically. They acted as agents provocateurs: their mission was purely to cause disruption on the boards, and they did so quite happily for a number of years. I think Zvezda, if not these same people in disguise, is one of these mischief makers. She can't really believe what she is saying. After all, no one says it anymore, not even Putin's authoritarian government. The only people in Russia spouting these views nowadays are crazy neo-fascist Eurasianists like Aleksandr Dugin, or Red-Brown fascist-communists like Eduard Limonov. Dugin is a fanatic whereas Limonov is basically a prostitute for publicity, any kind will do. At any rate, these two are marginal political figures, the only question is, and it is a serious one, will they remain marginal?

I don't expect us to discuss this matter here, since it is out of the purview of this particular thread. But I do think it's relevant to Zvezda's increasingly nationalistic, even chauvinistic posts. Anyone who argues that the massacre at Katyn by the Soviets was in some way justified is morally blinkered, - no worse, blinded by their bizarre ideology, which posits that even "suspected" or "potential" foes of the Stalinist regime were somehow worthy of death, purely on the basis of their nationality, ethnicity, and/or social class. How is this different from the Nazis?

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 31, 2009, 02:31:38 PM
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So you say that the reason that the Soviets denied their citizens the right to travel abroad. Is that why they had to build a wall around Berlin
That is false. For example, my mother visited Lebanon in 1972.

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Anyone who argues that the massacre at Katyn by the Soviets was in some way justified
To call it a "massacre" is inaccurate, for it was carried out in accordance with the country's laws. The prisoners committed hostile acts in violation of the country's security and were therefore punished. It was excessive to have executed them, but the principle of punishing them was just. Instead of being executed, they should have been sent to work in mines. And it is undeniable that the execution of Polish officers was intimately related to the Polish aggression of 1920 and the subsequent occupation of Soviet lands.

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neo-fascist or Red-Brown fascist-communists like Eduard Limonov
The term "fascist-communist" makes no sense. The ones closer to fascism on the political spectrum are actually the various factions of the liberal capitalists.

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If your father drove a car in 1970, your family must be rich.
My grandfather was a cobbler and was relatively wealthy compared to workers. But owning a car was not rare. In the 1980s, there were 70 cars per 1000 people, meaning that about one-third of all families owned a car.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Sergei Witte on July 31, 2009, 05:07:04 PM
Answer to Zvezda

You say: that is false. For example, my mother visited Lebanon in 1972.

Perhaps your mother wouldn't be missed if she wouldn't return.  :)

You say: To call it a "massacre" is inaccurate, for it was carried out in accordance with the country's laws. The prisoners committed hostile acts in violation of the country's security and were therefore punished. It was excessive to have executed them, but the principle of punishing them was just. Instead of being executed, they should have been sent to work in mines. And it is undeniable that the execution of Polish officers was intimately related to the Polish aggression of 1920 and the subsequent occupation of Soviet lands.

The prisoners only defended their country. Only because of this letter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Katyn_-_decision_of_massacre_p1.jpg

that they were murdered. That is pure massacre.

You say: The term "fascist-communist" makes no sense. The ones closer to fascism on the political spectrum are actually the various factions of the liberal capitalists.

The fact that fascism is on the other extreme of the political spectrum is not important. The fact is that both are extremist ideologies and this causes the misery for mankind.

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on July 31, 2009, 11:42:57 PM
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Zvezda's increasingly nationalistic, even chauvinistic posts.
I have done none of that. I simply express the views that the Russian Revolution was a watershed for world history and brought unprecedented gains for the people of Russia who were suffering in the Dark Ages that was tsarism. The Soviet era was not some miserable period as western liberals would have us believe, but was a time in which people led meaningful and decent lives. Particularly in the post-war period, soviet power was the greatest thing Russia experienced. I don't appreciate it too much when outsiders denigrate my country's history, especially when they liken it to Nazi Germany.
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Eduard Limonov. Dugin
I don't sympathize with either Limonov or Dugin, as I find their fascist ideology to be repugnant.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 01, 2009, 04:24:56 AM
I have done none of that. I simply express the views that the Russian Revolution was a watershed for world history and brought unprecedented gains for the people of Russia who were suffering in the Dark Ages that was tsarism.

Dark Ages that was Tsarism?...I have already said that the Tsarism wasn't totally right, but actually I think that the bolshevik and communist era was more dark than the Tsarist era.  ;)
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 02, 2009, 04:43:11 AM
I found an interesting web site all about the Stalin's GULAG, take a look here: http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/crimes.php

Zvezda, this is what you call a golden age?

Have you ever been late to work?

In the Stalin era, a person who arrived late to work three times could be sent to the Gulag for three years.


Have you ever told a joke about a government official?

In the Stalin era, many were sent to the Gulag for up to 25 years for telling an innocent joke about a Communist Party official.


If your family was starving, would you take a few potatoes left in a field after harvest?

In the Stalin era, a person could be sent to the Gulag for up to ten years for such petty theft.

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 02, 2009, 11:15:55 AM
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Zvezda's increasingly nationalistic, even chauvinistic posts.
I have done none of that. I simply express the views that the Russian Revolution was a watershed for world history and brought unprecedented gains for the people of Russia who were suffering in the Dark Ages that was tsarism. The Soviet era was not some miserable period as western liberals would have us believe, but was a time in which people led meaningful and decent lives. Particularly in the post-war period, soviet power was the greatest thing Russia experienced. I don't appreciate it too much when outsiders denigrate my country's history, especially when they liken it to Nazi Germany.
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Eduard Limonov. Dugin
I don't sympathize with either Limonov or Dugin, as I find their fascist ideology to be repugnant.

Our members are welcome to express their opinions, even if they are a "denigration of your country's history". So are you. That's the difference between "soviet power" and democracy. :)

I am reminded of something that happened years while I was attending the University of Arizona. I accompanied my professor to the airport to meet a visiting delegation of Soviet scholars.

While they were pleasant enough, they took the time to point out that "the streets were cleaner in the Soviet Union" and various unfavorable comparisons of Tucson, which is a lovely city (IMHO) but nonetheless, not up to USSR standards.

I reminded Professor Oswald that his wife had asked us to phone to give her a 10 minute warning of our arrival. He pulled up to make the call at a shopping center which included a grocery store with standard American fare (bakery, custom cuts of meat, etc) and taking a short list his wife dictated, asked the delegation if they would like to see the store.

Their faces registered the surprise they felt as they entered, and one of the women asked me if I, as a student, could afford to shop there. I told them I was on a budget, but, yes, I bought food there regularly.

Their overall reaction - tears. Every single person cried. They had no idea we lived this way.

So, I think about this every time I hear how great the USSR was after the war. I just don't buy it.

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on August 02, 2009, 03:25:07 PM
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Have you ever been late to work?
Russia established an eight-hour working day just a few days after the Petrograd Uprising, actually. By contrast, life for workers and peasants during the tsarist days was brutal and back-breaking; factory workers did 12+ hour shifts. There is no guarantee for such conditions in the United States, where many people have several jobs and work 70+ hours per week.

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In the Stalin era
I don't know why you keep talking about the Stalin era, which is basically ancient history by now; my grandmother was a 10 year-old girl when the war started, for example. Concerning life in the 1970s, which is more relevant, it was quite laid-back, especially at the workplace.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on August 02, 2009, 03:38:06 PM
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In the Stalin era
I don't know why you keep talking about the Stalin era, which is basically ancient history by now; my grandmother was a 10 year-old girl when the war started, for example. Concerning life in the 1970s, which is more relevant, it was quite laid-back, especially at the workplace.

Well, I'm still talking about the Stalin era just because the web site that I was referring is dedicated to the GULAG during that time, and also is the time of the Soviet Union that has particularly attracted my interest, I would agree that it is ancient history.
And I have to say that since this topic is dedicated to Communist crimes, I think that it's better to talk about the entire history of the Soviet era, not only about 1970s, this is my opinion.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 02, 2009, 03:59:56 PM
I have refrained from posting on this thread, as anyone who knows me, knows my views on the subject. Having said that, Lisa, do you know what "Soviet" means? It i is a a collective  DEMOCRACY. Of course there were abuses, there are in any power system. The USA is no exception. Your tender memories notwithstanding, I also have a have few- namely of a very good friend at the USSR Embassy in Wash. D.C. years ago. Of course he was  semi-impressed with our markets but always wondered why we needed so many choices of tooth paste? Many people in the USSR received a good education, opprotunity and health care. There were many achievments in science, the arts and culture.  There was a direction in that society.  It is misguided to concentrate on Stalin, IMO.  He was good and bad, just like Churchill and Roosevelt, , Mussolini and Peron. [etc] Name any leader and there are points we can look at and accuse.
 As for the system itself, it benefited the workers, which was the original point.  It saved the country from a horrible invasion at huge cost.
I know you and many others dwell on the negative yet ignore the positive aspects of Soviet life. It was indeed a radical change from the old system. But, was that so bad, for the Russians themselves?
 
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 03, 2009, 01:52:53 AM
I have refrained from posting on this thread, as anyone who knows me, knows my views on the subject. Having said that, Lisa, do you know what "Soviet" means? It i is a a collective  DEMOCRACY. Of course there were abuses, there are in any power system. The USA is no exception. Your tender memories notwithstanding, I also have a have few- namely of a very good friend at the USSR Embassy in Wash. D.C. years ago. Of course he was  semi-impressed with our markets but always wondered why we needed so many choices of tooth paste? Many people in the USSR received a good education, opprotunity and health care. There were many achievments in science, the arts and culture.  There was a direction in that society.  It is misguided to concentrate on Stalin, IMO.  He was good and bad, just like Churchill and Roosevelt, , Mussolini and Peron. [etc] Name any leader and there are points we can look at and accuse.
 As for the system itself, it benefited the workers, which was the original point.  It saved the country from a horrible invasion at huge cost.
I know you and many others dwell on the negative yet ignore the positive aspects of Soviet life. It was indeed a radical change from the old system. But, was that so bad, for the Russians themselves?
 

Since you ask, I minored in Russian History at the University of Arizona, completing nearly enough credit hours to qualify as a double major. I took every class offered at the time and earned an A in each one.

Yes, I know what the word Soviet means. I consider Stalin to be a mass murderer. And, I am offended that you would compare him to Churchill or Roosevelt. Stalin was scum.

I have never ignored the benefits of the Soviet system - there were some benefits for some people as with the tsarist system.

Was it so bad for the Russians? A system that murders its own citizens is in my opinion bad, but maybe that's just me. I'm picky that way.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. You may disagree with me at your leisure. At least if I disagree with you, I won't be sent to the Gulag or shot.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 03, 2009, 10:08:14 AM
Lisa, please do not misunderstand me- I agree Stalin was a monster. My point is that drastic measures are taken  by  almost all leaders [the Dalai Lama may be an exception, but his predessors were not exactly angels]   What I am  trying to say is that there are many views about all of these folks.  Some do indeed hate Roosevelt, blaming him for all out troubles, verging on socialism,. Frankly, I think of him as a hero.  Some see Stalin the same way.  And Churchill, well, he was an arrogant SOB  but got  Britain through the war. As did Stalin for the USSR.  I am just trying to  say it is best to look at these subjects objectively.
 And, BTW, I too studied Russian [more properly Soviet] history. I found a great deal of it boring and propagandist, but stuck with it just the same.
 Yes, we can amicably agree to disagree.
 Cheers,
 Robert
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on August 09, 2009, 03:31:19 PM
Lisa, please do not misunderstand me- I agree Stalin was a monster. My point is that drastic measures are taken  by  almost all leaders [the Dalai Lama may be an exception, but his predessors were not exactly angels]   What I am  trying to say is that there are many views about all of these folks.  Some do indeed hate Roosevelt, blaming him for all out troubles, verging on socialism,. Frankly, I think of him as a hero.  Some see Stalin the same way.  And Churchill, well, he was an arrogant SOB  but got  Britain through the war. As did Stalin for the USSR.  I am just trying to  say it is best to look at these subjects objectively.
 And, BTW, I too studied Russian [more properly Soviet] history. I found a great deal of it boring and propagandist, but stuck with it just the same.
 Yes, we can amicably agree to disagree.
 Cheers,
 Robert

Forgive me, but I'll say it again, for the nth time, if Hitler had died in 1938, there would be plenty of people out there singing his praises. After all, he put Germans back to work; he revived the German economy in a very major way. He was anti-smoking, anti-alcohol, and a vegetarian to boot, and he managed to pass the most advanced legislation on animal rights of its time (indeed, this legislation was far ahead of its time). A friend to the German worker, a friend to German cats and dogs... what more could one want? If it weren't for all that pesky anti-Jewish legislation, and his hatred of Germans with disabilities, one could almost argue that he was a good ruler, no worse than Stalin or Churchill or Roosevelt, objectively speaking... Yes, one could almost argue that. But not quite. There's something rotten to the core about these regimes (and I'll include Lenin's and Brezhnev's and Andropov's alongside with Hitler's and Stalin's) that stinks to high heaven. Those who suffered under these regimes tended to be the very best and the very brightest - the flower of their respective nations - so no wonder that Germany today has no arts or sciences scene worthy of its pre-1933 incarnation, and the post-Soviet Russian Federation continues to produce nothing noteworthy (or for that matter valuable) but natural gas and oil.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zvezda on August 09, 2009, 05:13:14 PM
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and the post-Soviet Russian Federation continues to produce nothing noteworthy (or for that matter valuable) but natural gas and oil.
Why do you keep on making these kind of sweeping generalizations about subjects you know little about? Soviet-era Russia produced products of excellent quality such as airplanes, ships, tractors, and motor vehicles. My experience with Soviet-era consumer goods such as a sewing machine have been generally positive. My mother's sewing machine is as old as I am and still works fine.

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After all, he put Germans back to work
Any positive aspect of the German economy in the 1930s came largely at the expense of the liquidation of the hard-won gains of the working people. Real wages in the 1930s, for example, declined considerably.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zecharia on August 09, 2009, 09:42:58 PM
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My grandfather was a cobbler and was relatively wealthy compared to workers. But owning a car was not rare. In the 1980s, there were 70 cars per 1000 people, meaning that about one-third of all families owned a car.

What you could remember about sovet (communist era)?  Only what your parents told you. ::)
I was only 15 years old when Sovet occupated in 1968 my country and belive me I would never forgive them.  They ruined Czechoslovakia and never apologise for the demage >:( :(
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on August 10, 2009, 05:05:58 AM
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and the post-Soviet Russian Federation continues to produce nothing noteworthy (or for that matter valuable) but natural gas and oil.
Why do you keep on making these kind of sweeping generalizations about subjects you know little about? Soviet-era Russia produced products of excellent quality such as airplanes, ships, tractors, and motor vehicles. My experience with Soviet-era consumer goods such as a sewing machine have been generally positive. My mother's sewing machine is as old as I am and still works fine.

Zvezda, you know as well as I do that at the end of World War II the Soviet army, when it swept over and took over Eastern Europe and in particular eastern Germany, appropriated (i.e., stole) every piece of new technology it could get its hands on, and this included entire factories which were shipped back to the USSR and reassembled. The fact of the matter is, the USSR almost always lagged behind the West in terms of cutting-edge technology, despite geniuses like Korolev (and he, like a lot of outstanding Soviet scientists of the era, spent considerable time in the camps - Stalin was never one to appreciate real genius, or maybe he was just acutely envious and suspicious of it).

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After all, he put Germans back to work
Any positive aspect of the German economy in the 1930s came largely at the expense of the liquidation of the hard-won gains of the working people. Real wages in the 1930s, for example, declined considerably.

Zvezda, I was not defending Hitler. I was being sarcastic. In the same way that you are blind to Stalin's faults, plenty of Hitler apologists are blind to his.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Janet Ashton on August 10, 2009, 05:12:26 AM

Those who suffered under these regimes tended to be the very best and the very brightest - the flower of their respective nations - so no wonder that Germany today has no arts or sciences scene worthy of its pre-1933 incarnation, and the post-Soviet Russian Federation continues to produce nothing noteworthy (or for that matter valuable) but natural gas and oil.

While I hesitate to wade into this thread, I do disagree with you on this final point. I've no dispute with what you say about the artists who suffered under these regimes, but I do have to observe that Soviet-era scientific research was considered of great importance in the west, and knowledge of German is thought to be almost indispensable in scientific research today, because of the quality and quantity of the material published in that language. THis may be a testimony to how well the country bounced back after 1945, rather than evidence that dictatorial regimes had encouraged it as well in self-interest, of course, but it is still true.
Post-Soviet Union, the quality of scientific publishing in the former Soviet area has certainly declined, though.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on August 10, 2009, 05:20:59 AM

Those who suffered under these regimes tended to be the very best and the very brightest - the flower of their respective nations - so no wonder that Germany today has no arts or sciences scene worthy of its pre-1933 incarnation, and the post-Soviet Russian Federation continues to produce nothing noteworthy (or for that matter valuable) but natural gas and oil.

While I hesitate to wade into this thread, I do disagree with you on this final point. I've no dispute with what you say about the artists who suffered under these regimes, but I do have to observe that Soviet-era scientific research was considered of great importance in the west, and knowledge of German is thought to be almost indispensable in scientific research today, because of the quality and quantity of the material published in that language. THis may be a testimony to how well the country bounced back after 1945, rather than evidence that dictatorial regimes had encouraged it as well in self-interest, of course, but it is still true.
Post-Soviet Union, the quality of scientific publishing in the former Soviet area has certainly declined, though.

Well, you may very well be right about the sciences in Germany, Janet, I admit I'm not a sciences person. However, it seems to me the Germans no longer win as many Nobel Prizes as they used to in this field (having forced into exile most of their sterling geniuses, like Alfred Einstein, back in the 1930s). And as for the arts... well, Germany is not exactly stellar in this field. For example, I think most Americans would be hard-pressed to come up with more than a handful of German writers or artists who have made a name on the international scene in the last half-century or so. Certainly there is nothing comparable to the virtual renaissance of the arts - literature, painting, film, etc. - that took place under the Weimar government in the 1920s.

As for post-Soviet science, everybody who was anybody got out of Russia when they could, mainly in the early 1990s. The same thing happened in other academic fields. This is why Russian universities are so poor in quality today that they no longer even rank in international lists of the top universities around the world. Yes, that's right, not a single Russian university makes the list nowadays. Precisely because the most eminent professors fled that country as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed and they were able to get out. As one of my Russian literature professors told me, "I didn't want to leave. I love my country. But I had to be practical and think of my child's welfare."
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Alixz on August 10, 2009, 11:10:52 AM
Albert Einstein.

I have stayed out of this because it is not anywhere close to what my area of interest is and I know very little about life after Lenin in the Soviet Union.

As for Germany, many of the best scientific minds of the 20th century came out of Germany in the 1930s. 

And that is how the US managed to build the atomic bomb before the Soviets.  The Germans had done most of the work in heavy water experiments during the 1940s

Before the Japanese and other Asian countries took over in the area of autos, Germany had the best minds there as well.  The Autobahn is one of the best cambered roads in the world.

Who flooded the market in small cars?  Germany with the Volkswagen Bug in the 1970s, but that was invented in the 1930-40 during the post Wiemar days.

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Elisabeth on August 11, 2009, 04:21:24 AM
Albert Einstein.

I have stayed out of this because it is not anywhere close to what my area of interest is and I know very little about life after Lenin in the Soviet Union.

As for Germany, many of the best scientific minds of the 20th century came out of Germany in the 1930s.  

And that is how the US managed to build the atomic bomb before the Soviets.  The Germans had done most of the work in heavy water experiments during the 1940s

Before the Japanese and other Asian countries took over in the area of autos, Germany had the best minds there as well.  The Autobahn is one of the best cambered roads in the world.

Who flooded the market in small cars?  Germany with the Volkswagen Bug in the 1970s, but that was invented in the 1930-40 during the post Wiemar days.

Hey, Alixz, do you know who first drew up the basic design for the Volkswagen? It was Adolf Hitler himself (one must admit, as painful as it is to do so, that like his henchman Albert Speer, Hitler was a talented designer - now, if only he had gone into design and left politics alone!). I know Jewish Americans who refuse even to this day to consider buying Volkswagen Bugs for that very reason. And who can blame them? Because basically it's Hitler's car, his "gift" to the masses.

Mercedes Benz had an interesting television commercial a few years ago, a kind of historical retrospective of their company. Only one thing was wrong - they entirely left out the 1930s and 40s, when they had a very warm and close relationship with the Third Reich. Again, I know Jewish Americans who would never dream of buying a Mercedes.
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Alixz on August 11, 2009, 08:38:41 AM
Yes, I did know that.  Volkswagen means "people's car".  Like Henry Ford, Hitler wanted a car in every garage.  He also insisted, like Eisenhower did in the US after the war, that Germany needed a good road system, hence, the Autobahn.

I left that out because I didn't want to begin a discussion of Hitler and his faults and his crimes.

I wanted to keep it to Germany and the Germans and their contributions.

Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on September 29, 2009, 12:04:25 PM
I don't know if this is the right place for this...however, I'm curious to know if anyone have seen the movie Katyn, about the Katyn massacre ordered by the Soviets in 1940 in Poland, directed by Andrzej Wajda...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Katyn_movie_poster.jpg

I have seen it a few days ago, it's a good movie (although it's very impressive).
 
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: Zecharia on September 29, 2009, 09:35:13 PM
Also an interesting book is Gulag Archipelago.         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago
Title: Re: Communist crimes - Link to a Web Site
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on September 30, 2009, 07:47:27 AM
Also an interesting book is Gulag Archipelago.         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago

It's definitely an excellent book in my opinion, I read that book, I had the fortune to find it in the library of my university (I think that I will buy it since I descovered that it's easily available here in Italy), it deserves to be in my personal library, indeed a precious historical document.