Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Olga Nicholaievna => Topic started by: Grand_Duchess_Olga on June 29, 2008, 08:46:09 PM

Title: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Grand_Duchess_Olga on June 29, 2008, 08:46:09 PM
On this forum, I hear many estimates as to how tall the imperial children were. 

To me to say that Olga was about 5'4 or any grand duchess was under 5'6  save for Anastasia , I have a hard time buying.

When I see the girls standing next to Nicolas, they are noticeably taller then he was. 

Most stats put Nicolas at 5'6 or 5'7. 

The Tsarina was even taller then Nicolas, according to some records. 

So I am not sure that saying any of the girls except Anastasia were under 5'6 in height inaccurate. 

If I am wrong then so be it. 

Thanks for taking the time to read this !

Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Sarushka on June 29, 2008, 09:32:02 PM
It's true that estimates of the grand duchesses' heights vary, but I disagree that the photo record shows Nicholas's daughters as noticeably taller than he was. Their heels and picture hats decorated with flowers and ostrich feathers give some impression of height, but as far as I can see none of the girls (with the possible exception of Tatiana) were as tall as or taller than their father.

1913:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/th_7-157a.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/7-157a.jpg)

1915:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/th_ma1915full.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/ma1915full.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/th_nickyotmadog.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/nickyotmadog.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/Snow/th_7-172withkseniasboys1915.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/Snow/7-172withkseniasboys1915.jpg)


1916:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/th_naotmaatroops5b.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/naotmaatroops5b.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/th_naotmaatroops4a.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/naotmaatroops4a.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/th_naotmaatroops.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/naotmaatroops.jpg)


Even in the winter of 1917-18, Nicholas and Tatiana (by all accounts the tallest of the girls, as this 1917 photo shows (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/otmabald.jpg)) were of very similar height:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/th_FOTIC3.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/FOTIC3.jpg)

Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Lalee on June 30, 2008, 01:31:05 AM
Baroness Sophie Buxhoeveden wrote in her book that Tatiana was even taller than Alix ("She was taller even than the Empress, but she was so slight and well-proportioned that her great height was not remarkable"), and Alix is said to have been a little taller than Nicholas - which I sometimes have trouble believing that because of the women's hair style and their shoe heels could very possibly have been another factor (sometimes it looks as if Nicholas was taller, then at other times Alix was taller, and at other times it looks as if they're both the same height).

I think I agree with Sarushka. All the girls seem shorter than Nicholas. With Tatiana, as it is clear she was the tallest of the girls, I think she looks as if she could be the same height as her father or a little shorter.

I do not know the exact heights of each of the children and their parents either..
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Holly on June 30, 2008, 02:39:53 AM
Olga: 5'5.
Tatiana: 5'8.
Maria: 5'7.
Anastasia: 5'2.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 30, 2008, 02:46:16 AM
In centimetres please :)  I have no slightest idea of how long an inch is.,
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Proud_Olga on June 30, 2008, 03:17:08 AM
In centimetres please :)  I have no slightest idea of how long an inch is.,

Yes, me too.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Holly on June 30, 2008, 03:52:02 AM
Olga: 165.10
Tatiana: 172.72
Maria:170.18
Anastasia:157.48
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Ally Kumari on June 30, 2008, 04:04:29 AM
Thank you Holly!

So I´m also one of those who share Anastasia´s heigh :)
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Lalee on June 30, 2008, 07:12:02 AM
I'm very slightly taller than Anastasia. But then again, I'm probably still growing a little! :D

Thank you for the information, Holly!

Ally, an inch is about 2.5 centimetres. ;)
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Sarushka on June 30, 2008, 07:16:14 AM
Olga: 5'5.
Tatiana: 5'8.
Maria: 5'7.
Anastasia: 5'2.

I'm presuming these are estimates based on the studies done after the remains were found? As far as I know, the scientists had to use photographs and extrapolate from the measurements of key bones because no reliable height figures existed for the girls at the time of their death.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Aliss_Kande on June 30, 2008, 07:37:41 AM
Olga: 5'5.
Tatiana: 5'8.
Maria: 5'7.
Anastasia: 5'2.

I'm presuming these are estimates based on the studies done after the remains were found? As far as I know, the scientists had to use photographs and extrapolate from the measurements of key bones because no reliable height figures existed for the girls at the time of their death.

They couldn't have gone off the remains, because the body marked Anastasia is around 5'7" and the one they just found is around 5'3".  I think they must have gone off some earlier measurement or from photographs.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: nena on June 30, 2008, 07:43:31 AM
Also, Sarushka, they used pics. from 1917; so, they can say how tall girls were.
1915:
 (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/th_nickyotmadog.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Stavka/nickyotmadog.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/Snow/th_7-172withkseniasboys1915.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/Snow/7-172withkseniasboys1915.jpg)
I am not sure year were 1915. First one 1916, the second winter 1914-maybe 1915. when did you learn these years?
Also, Tatiana was taller than NII. But in the first one Tatiana was same height as father(in 1913), also in that captivity photo in 1917/8. What about years beetwen?  :)
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Grand_Duchess_Olga on June 30, 2008, 07:51:01 AM
Olga: 5'5.
Tatiana: 5'8.
Maria: 5'7.
Anastasia: 5'2.

Now that sounds more like it! 

The bone measurement have Maria at 5'4 which I find IMPOSSIBLE considering the build of that girl!

When I see their feet I think they usually opt to wear mules (little tiny heels) or flat bottoms.

Anastasia had feet problems I can't imagine her wearing pinchy heels.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Proud_Olga on June 30, 2008, 08:54:28 AM
Olga: 165.10
Tatiana: 172.72
Maria:170.18
Anastasia:157.48

Thank you Holly :) I'm just a little taller than Nastya. Hope I'll grow a little more.

I think Olga's height is perfect for a girl. Tatiana & Maria are too tall.

Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Sarushka on June 30, 2008, 10:38:51 AM
They couldn't have gone off the remains, because the body marked Anastasia is around 5'7" and the one they just found is around 5'3".  I think they must have gone off some earlier measurement or from photographs.

The American forensic scientists used measurements from the skeletons' femurs and arm bones to estimate the girls' heights. And I stress 'estimate' because by the time Dr. Maples examined the remains, he was "horrified to see that some of the long bones of the thigh and arm had been cut in half; this could only make it more difficult for him to estimate height." [Massie, pg 60] To my knowledge, the American scientists only referred to photographs to help differentiate between the girls *after* they'd estimated the skeletons' height.
 
Although the media persists in labeling the newly found remains as belonging to Maria, there was significant disagreement between the forensic teams about the identification of skeleton #6 -- some of it centered around the height discrepancy Aliss points out. The Russians believed skeleton #6 belonged to Anastasia, and the American team believed it was Maria. Apparently Dr. Abramov based his findings primarily on facial reconstruction and superimposing photographs, while Dr. Maples considered height, development of the vertebrae and pelvic rim, and development wisdom teeth.

Reading pages 63-67 of Robert Massie's Romanovs: The Final Chapter (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=38) convinces me that the height of skeleton #6 is correct, but the identification as Anastasia is wrong.


I also have a Russian book which presents a forensic examination of the remains (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=86). The vocabulary is difficult and specialized, but I'll see if I can find any additional information on the girls' height from that source.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Sarushka on June 30, 2008, 11:27:50 AM
Correction to my last post!

The Russian team identified skeleton #5 as Tatiana and #6 as Anastasia.
The American team identified skeleton #5 as Maria and #6 as Tatiana

Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: nena on June 30, 2008, 11:32:19 AM
I agree with Russian team, I've always believed Maria is missing daughter.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Sarushka on June 30, 2008, 11:36:16 AM
I've found a chart in Taina Tsarskikh Ostankov (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=86) that compares the American forensic results with the Russian, so I recopied it into English. As you can see, there's a significant discrepancy in the estimated heights of skeleton #6:

(http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/7806/chartek6.png) (http://imageshack.us)
(measurements are in centimeters)

[Edited to fix a typo in the chart]
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: nena on June 30, 2008, 11:44:23 AM
Thanks, Sarushka. I never could believe differents between US and RU results of forensic. It's big difference.
You can see comparasion on www.romanov-memorial.com.

Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Holly on June 30, 2008, 01:50:18 PM
Olga: 5'5.
Tatiana: 5'8.
Maria: 5'7.
Anastasia: 5'2.

I'm presuming these are estimates based on the studies done after the remains were found? As far as I know, the scientists had to use photographs and extrapolate from the measurements of key bones because no reliable height figures existed for the girls at the time of their death.

I did not get the height of Anastasia from remains. I forgot where I got it though. I did use remains and I did my own research as well.

I don't see how people could take the Russian results over the US results.

Not only does the age and estimated height of #5 fit Maria, but they used a picture of Maria to prove it was Anastasia and the wounds on the body correspond to how they say Maria died as well. I don't understand at all what reason people have to believe it besides just because they  keep saying so.

Height may be rough to use in identifying but you cannot disregard it completely. Even if the estimation is rough you can still tell who was tallest or shortest. If the bones were cut in half it would only make them shorter and bones shrink over time. It wouldn't make anyone taller or have a huge impact.

If you put Olga as #3, Tatiana as #6, Maria as #5, the height, age, wound, etc... would all basically match. But then if you put Anastasia in, the whole thing gets messed up! The Russian's based theirs on facial reconstruction which is ridiculous considering that most of the faces were missing on 2 of them! I don't understand why this is so difficult.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Lanie on July 03, 2008, 01:07:35 AM
Regarding this issue I think it's important to realize that most likely all the heights aren't exactly super-accurate since they extrapolated from broken bones and made estimates.  And according to both teams, only Olga was positively conclusively identified by them.  So it could be equally Tatiana, Maria, or Anastasia.  I figure that once we all get more information about the new skeletons we could probably find out conclusively, with all of the children accounted for, who is who.  Even for Anastasia to be missing the heights, to me, make no sense.

Livadia.org has an interesting discussion of both team's findings and conclude that the missing daughter may be Tatiana.
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Holly on July 03, 2008, 03:11:33 AM
Regarding this issue I think it's important to realize that most likely all the heights aren't exactly super-accurate since they extrapolated from broken bones and made estimates.  And according to both teams, only Olga was positively conclusively identified by them.  So it could be equally Tatiana, Maria, or Anastasia.  I figure that once we all get more information about the new skeletons we could probably find out conclusively, with all of the children accounted for, who is who.  Even for Anastasia to be missing the heights, to me, make no sense.

How do the heights not make sense?? Tatiana couldn't be missing. Anastasia's development and height don't match any of them. Tatiana does however fit. I think people exaggerate the height issue. They can't be that far off. If anything it is more reliable than matching pictures of faces with skulls that have most of the face missing. Considering the newly found girl was 5'2, I don't see how it could be any clearer, really. It's just being made more difficult than it needs to be.

Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: Lanie on July 03, 2008, 02:45:32 PM
I'm too lazy to write up a full explanation because I'm not nearly as interested in this stuff as I used to be (quite frankly, they're all there now, so what?) but here's what Livadia.org's Missing? site says about the issue:

If Marie is No. 5 and Tatiana is No. 6 ~ then the height for No. 6 is wrong.
If Tatiana is No. 5 and Maria is No. 6 ~ then the height for No. 6 is wrong.
If Tatiana is No. 5 and Anastasia is No. 6 ~ then the height for No. 6 is wrong.
If Anastasia is No. 5 and Tatiana is No. 6 ~ then both heights are wrong.
Is Maria is No. 5 and Anastasia is No. 6 ~ then the height for No. 6 is wrong.
If Anastasia is No. 5 and Maria is No. 6 ~ then both heights are wrong.

Where's a news outlet that says the height of the missing daughter that's now found?  I had no clue that was "out" yet.  (And it sucks, if it's Anastasia, then she was 3" taller than me.  AAARG.  And everyone goes on about how she was short... ;))

I also think this is an issue of who's your "favorite".  A lot of the people who love Anastasia will say, She was missing!  Those who like Maria will be more likely to say, No, it was Maria Nikolaevna!

Again, all we know conclusively is that Olga was there.  Now that the other skeleton (or bits of it? I don't know how much was there, etc) is there I hope we'll be able to figure it out.  At least we won't have to deal with the Anna Anderson was Anastasia Nikolaevna! junk.  Unless they say how the skeleton was planted or something by the evil Russians... ;)
Title: Re: Serious Height Issue
Post by: AnastasiaNikolaevna on July 27, 2010, 08:48:28 AM
In centimetres please :)  I have no slightest idea of how long an inch is.,

This is very off topic, heehee, but when I was little I would remember an inch about the size of your thumb.....Hope this helps?