Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: Forum Admin on July 17, 2008, 09:00:06 AM

Title: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on July 17, 2008, 09:00:06 AM
REUTERS:
By James Kilner
updated 10:42 a.m. CT, Wed., July. 16, 2008

YEKATERINBURG, Russia - Russia said on Wednesday that charred remains found in a pit belonged to Czar Nicholas II's only son and his daughter, exactly 90 years after the Bolsheviks shocked the world by murdering the last Czar.

Moscow's confirmation that the remains included those of Czar Nicholas' 13-year-old heir, Prince Alexei, came as hundreds of Russians flocked to a church built on the site where the family was gunned down by Bolshevik executioners.

Nicholas II, lampooned by the Soviets as a failure, is considered by many Russians today as a martyr and presented as a symbol of the imperial glory which many now seek to recapture.I
n a sign of renewed interest in the imperial past, the last Czar is in first place in an Internet poll to select the greatest Russians, having overtaken Soviet dictator Josef Stalin this week.

"He is a symbol of a great and powerful Russia who also did great things for the country," 18-year-old Yevgeny Chindyasky said at the Church on the Blood where Russian Orthodox believers gathered to mark the 90th anniversary of the Czar's execution.

The Bolsheviks shot the Czar and his family on the night of July 16-17, 1918, in the basement of a merchant's house in the city of Yekaterinburg, 1,450 km (900 miles) east of Moscow.

The bodies of Russia's imperial rulers were burnt, doused in acid to make subsequent identification difficult and dumped in pits without a proper Orthodox burial.

Remains believed to belong to the Czar, his wife and three of his daughters were exhumed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They were reburied in 1998 in the imperial crypt of the St. Peter and Paul Cathedral in St Petersburg.

But Prince Alexei Nikolayevich and 19-year-old Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna were not among those remains.

Last year bone fragments and teeth belonging to two young people were found about 77 yards away from the site where Russia's imperial rulers had been buried.

Teeth and fillings
Forensic scientists said molar teeth and amalgam fillings found with the new remains matched those found among the remains of the other members of the royal family.

Scull fragments showed injuries consistent with bullet wounds. Numerous genetic tests showed the remains of both groups belonged to one family group.

"The overall scientific results, which were based on DNA tests using three genetic systems, agrees with the hypothesis that in the second burial site the remains of Grand Duchess Maria and Tsarevich Alexei have been found," the Prosecutor-General's Office said in a statement.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Kremlin and many Russians have sought to reconnect with their pre-revolutionary past.

President Dmitry Medvedev has said he admires Nicholas II, whom many historians blame for being too weak and setting Russia on a path to civil war and dictatorship.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25704389/
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 22, 2008, 01:32:07 PM
i am glad they have been found now the IF can rest in peace together
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 22, 2008, 02:53:34 PM
Does anyone know if they plan on publishing the results and if so, when? Otherwise there could be speculation as to their methods and other things...
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Michael HR on July 22, 2008, 04:51:52 PM
Just watched the program on C5 in the UK. well that wrap sit up at last. All members accounted for and ow only to bury the last two with the rest of their family.

DNA shows remains children of Tsar and thus Alexis and Anastasia (or Maria).

Finally.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 23, 2008, 08:22:15 AM
Just watched the program on C5 in the UK. well that wrap sit up at last. All members accounted for and ow only to bury the last two with the rest of their family.


i watched it too aparently the church are desperate to bury the IF together.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: alistasia on July 23, 2008, 10:29:14 AM
Having just watched the documentry on channel 5 in the UK I felt very moved.

At last the IF can rest in peace together without conspiracy or speculation.

The intrigue and mystery that surrounds the legend of this wonderful family will always be of public interest. But perhaps now fact and respect will over take the undignified lies and speculation surrounding their tragic deaths.

 
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on July 23, 2008, 10:42:49 AM
Sorry for going the topic off, I am so glad story is closed, but I have never seen any pic. of their remains.
Only saw parts of Aleksei's shirt believd he wore when he was murdered.....
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 23, 2008, 10:53:01 AM
Sorry for going the topic off, I am so glad story is closed, but I have never seen any pic. of their remains.
Only saw parts of Aleksei's shirt believd he wore when he was murdered.....

To be honest I wouldn't know if I will be up for pictures, the first time I saw pictures of the remains of Nicky, Alix, the girls and their servants I didn't feel that good. Just because we knew what they had to endure, it might be just their mortal remains, but those remains were part of that tragedy, and a part of the lives that were lived until that night. And to pictures of the shirt, I never heard about them. I am curious to be honest, but I know me, I wouldn't feel well watching them. It would feel like watching pictures of someone dying, like I would be looking into someone's final moments.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2008, 11:28:35 AM
The story is running in the US on National Geographic Explorer channel, it was on last night but will be shown a few more times

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/explorer/3109/Overview/?source=4003

At the end they showed the DNA results as charts on paper. Looks like they used nuclear DNA of N and A to match to that of the kids. No mention of the Hessian/Victorian mtDNA but that doesn't mean it wasn't used also. The results clearly showed there were one male and one female child who were siblings and both the biological children of N and A. They said it was impossible to know if the girl was Maria or Anastasia, but what mattered most is that they are all accounted for now.

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Natasha on July 23, 2008, 01:00:14 PM
I am so glad they have accounted for all of the Romanov's even though it is sad that we now know for sure that none of them survived. I didn't even know about the results until I just watched "Finding Anastasia" on National Geographic. I almost cried because finally they can all be together!

I am pleased to see how the Americans remain open minded and can scientifically state they cannot ID whether the newly discovered daughter is Anastasia or Maria....the Russian's have no idea either but they seem dead set on it being Maria. Does it even matter now? We know they ALL died that terrible night and now they can be together in death. That's all anyone could have hoped for.

Rest Forever In Peace Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei....you'll be forever remembered!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: sgc on July 23, 2008, 01:36:25 PM
I am so glad they have accounted for all of the Romanov's even though it is sad that we now know for sure that none of them survived. I didn't even know about the results until I just watched "Finding Anastasia" on National Geographic. I almost cried because finally they can all be together!

I am pleased to see how the Americans remain open minded and can scientifically state they cannot ID whether the newly discovered daughter is Anastasia or Maria....the Russian's have no idea either but they seem dead set on it being Maria. Does it even matter now? We know they ALL died that terrible night and now they can be together in death. That's all anyone could have hoped for.

Rest Forever In Peace Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei....you'll be forever remembered!

Been reading Nicholas and Alexandra: The Last Imperial Family of Tsarist Russia, which I bought a few weeks ago. On page 380, there's a photograph of a small fragment of wallpaper with a stain of blood that was found by those investigating the death of the family a few weeks later. Above the stain is an inscription supposedly written the night of the killings in Germany from "Besatzar".

Can't get that photograph out of my mind.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: alistasia on July 23, 2008, 01:55:20 PM
DO you know where it is possible to purchase that book from?

I've had a look all over the internet but couldn't find it.

many thanks
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 23, 2008, 01:58:18 PM
DO you know where it is possible to purchase that book from?

I've had a look all over the internet but couldn't find it.

many thanks


http://www.amazon.com/Nicholas-Alexandra-Imperial-Family-Tsarist/dp/B000GR22GW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216839460&sr=1-2
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: sgc on July 23, 2008, 02:02:37 PM
Amazon is exactly where I got mine from a few weeks ago; the copies are used but in excellent condition, and I ended up paying $11.13 plus postage.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: alistasia on July 23, 2008, 02:07:19 PM
perfect,thanks very much

couldn't see for looking !
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: sgc on July 23, 2008, 02:21:36 PM
Been reading Nicholas and Alexandra: The Last Imperial Family of Tsarist Russia, which I bought a few weeks ago. On page 380, there's a photograph of a small fragment of wallpaper with a stain of blood that was found by those investigating the death of the family a few weeks later. Above the stain is an inscription supposedly written the night of the killings in Germany from "Besatzar".

So sorry: I committed a typo and didn't catch it. The inscription was not written in Germany (the country)...it was written in German (the language)!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on July 23, 2008, 02:26:57 PM
sgc, do you mean this photo:
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Sokolova%20reportaza/th_11.gif) (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Sokolova%20reportaza/11.gif)
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: sgc on July 23, 2008, 02:56:30 PM
Here you go...this is a much better scan than the one you already have.




(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd243/scelli_photos/OTMA01607.jpg)
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 23, 2008, 03:01:18 PM

Rest Forever In Peace Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei....you'll be forever remembered!
[/quote]



fasinating photo! but sad also. but as to the quote above we always seem to forget the faithful servants :(
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on July 23, 2008, 03:06:56 PM
Thank you, a lot, sgc! R.I.P. NAOTMAA and servants followed you.......
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: sgc on July 23, 2008, 03:16:20 PM
You're absolutely correct on the point of honoring the others who perished. I've got my own feelings regarding those who didn't have to be there and still stayed, as well as those who deserted and ran like the wind as far away as possible. There are also two individuals that don't get mentioned quite as often as they should: Pierre Gilliard and Charles Sidney Gibbes. Both remained loyal to the end, although they were denied access to be with the family in the Ipiatiev House...where they most likely would have died on the night of 17 July 1918 with the rest.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 23, 2008, 03:24:53 PM
i totally agree with you sgc but i think one person who should have been with the family in ipatiev house should have been buxhoeveden after all she kept saying she was so faithful towards the family..... ;)  ::)
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: sgc on July 23, 2008, 03:41:05 PM
i totally agree with you sgc but i think one person who should have been with the family in ipatiev house should have been buxhoeveden after all she kept saying she was so faithful towards the family..... ;)  ::)

Now there is an interesting case. I am amazed at how many folks are split right down the middle as to whether she was friend or foe in those final months.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on July 23, 2008, 04:06:58 PM
Bux. was totally loyal to the IF, and there is no real evidence to believe otherwise.  She was released by the Bolsheviks along with Gilliard and Gibbes because they believed from her name that she was German, not Russian.  I did rather a lot of research into the basis for the claims that Bux.  betrayed the family, and the evidence turned out to have been made up by a Bolshevik sleazebag, who was married to Rasputin's daughter, and acting as a double agent, collecting funds from the loyalists to the Regime, pocketing the money then turning in anyone trying to help Nicholas to the Bolsheviks. 

Anna Vyroubova sent a large sum of money to Ekaterinburg, which she raised in Petrograd, to support the IF.  The double agent recieved the money, then "said" he gave it to Bux.  She of course never got it.  It was his lie that people were using to believe she betrayed the IF.  The truth is that she didn't betray them ever.

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 23, 2008, 04:09:59 PM
 :-[ oops never knew that. perhaps my opinon on her has changed
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2008, 04:51:45 PM
Bux. was totally loyal to the IF, and there is no real evidence to believe otherwise.  She was released by the Bolsheviks along with Gilliard and Gibbes because they believed from her name that she was German, not Russian.  I did rather a lot of research into the basis for the claims that Bux.  betrayed the family, and the evidence turned out to have been made up by a Bolshevik sleazebag, who was married to Rasputin's daughter, and acting as a double agent, collecting funds from the loyalists to the Regime, pocketing the money then turning in anyone trying to help Nicholas to the Bolsheviks. 

Anna Vyroubova sent a large sum of money to Ekaterinburg, which she raised in Petrograd, to support the IF.  The double agent recieved the money, then "said" he gave it to Bux.  She of course never got it.  It was his lie that people were using to believe she betrayed the IF.  The truth is that she didn't betray them ever.



The only thing I disagree with is that I thought she said they took her name to be Swedish not German (it was Danish) It's a terrible shame how this woman's name has been dragged through the mud unfairly. The rumor was started by double agents and perpetuated sadly to this day by AA supporters who try to use the 'betrayal' as 'proof' AA was AN since AA said it, and AA was flatly rejected by Bux. It's not true. If you read her book "Left Behind" here on AP you can see what a terrible time she had getting out of Russia, and was finally only able to leave because of help from the British. The whole tale that she betrayed them in exchange for her own safety is total rubbish, she never had any protection from them, she ran in fear of her life for over a year.  It's time to clear this lady's name.

http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 05:28:17 AM
now i learn more about her my opion is ever changing. the first i read about her was the saga on the RUS and i forget which book it was but it basically balmes her. now i know more about her tragic story i have to agree with Annie perhaps it is time she was cleared
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 24, 2008, 08:17:32 AM
now i learn more about her my opion is ever changing. the first i read about her was the saga on the RUS and i forget which book it was but it basically balmes her.

Yes, you probably read that in FOTR. Since then we had a long discussion about Bux's alleged "betrayal" and demonstrated that FOTR was wrong. You may want to do a search of old threads, it's in there somewhere...
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Annie on July 24, 2008, 10:29:06 AM
now i learn more about her my opion is ever changing. the first i read about her was the saga on the RUS and i forget which book it was but it basically balmes her.

Yes, you probably read that in FOTR. Since then we had a long discussion about Bux's alleged "betrayal" and demonstrated that FOTR was wrong. You may want to do a search of old threads, it's in there somewhere...


The whole idea of it even happening on the Rus is ridiculous, since at that time nobody knew what was going to happen to try to get away! If she had wanted to leave the family and go home she could have just left from Tobolsk and not even gotten on the Rus! And as I've said before she was not granted any freedom or special favors. Also the timeline is wrong. Boy that Rus trip sure has a lot added to it that wasn't really there, like the alleged 'abuse' which has also been proven wrong since it wasn't what the referenced source, Volkov, said at all. (There is a thread on that too) It's also ridiculous she told about the jewels, because the Bolsheviks didn't know and were surprised when the bullets bounced off of them. If they knew about them they'd have confiscated them immediately. Sometimes there are theories that turn out not to be accurate.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 24, 2008, 10:32:45 AM
The whole idea of it even happening on the Rus is ridiculous, since at that time nobody knew what was going to happen to try to get away! If she had wanted to leave the family and go home she could have just left from Tobolsk and not even gotten on the Rus!

Perhaps she already hatched her devious plan to rip off the IF, which is why she had to go on the Rus with them...  Kidding.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Annie on July 24, 2008, 10:42:08 AM
LOL. That's another thing, she had no money! She and Gibbes took out some kind of loan together and she didn't pay it and he was mad at her.As they traveled across Siberia money was always a problem. I am pretty sure she had to get her Dad to wire money for her trip home. She sure endured a lot of hardship, financial trouble, and living in fear of her life for over a year on the run for somebody who allegedly stole money and betrayed the family for her own safety ::)
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: sgc on July 24, 2008, 10:45:48 AM
Thank you, a lot, sgc! R.I.P. NAOTMAA and servants followed you.......

Did you notice the small bloodstain in the lower middle part of the picture? Talk about a piece of history.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 10:58:51 AM
i wonder who's blood it was
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Annie on July 24, 2008, 11:00:24 AM
Let's do a DNA test on it! ;)
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 24, 2008, 12:33:18 PM
lol. dreams and fairytales.........
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on July 24, 2008, 01:54:31 PM
No...I've never noticed it before.........
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Natasha on July 31, 2008, 03:30:02 AM
Here you go...this is a much better scan than the one you already have.




(http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd243/scelli_photos/OTMA01607.jpg)




Does anyone know what this inscription says?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 31, 2008, 03:33:37 AM
Isn't it the one that says 'Belchazar kileld by his servants' or something like that? I can't remember exactly but I remember someone wrote it down - but I could be wrong here
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Michael HR on July 31, 2008, 03:36:46 AM
If the quote was near the window as I recall the blood maybe the Empresses as she was sat close to the window but without DNA we will not know of course.

i wonder who's blood it was
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 31, 2008, 04:01:51 AM
yes it could be alexandra's blood or tatiana/olga as well if i remember correctly they were stood behind their mother?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 31, 2008, 04:04:29 AM
Yes, fascinating subject. But still haunting
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 31, 2008, 04:14:18 AM
i agree
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Michael HR on July 31, 2008, 04:17:04 AM
Tom you are correct they were stood behind their Mother. All three would probably fallen backwards, and we know the daughters did not die in the first volley, unless the Empress went sideways depending on the angle of the bullets that hit her. Also if the Empress was killed by a bullet to the head as has been suggested there may not have been a great deal of blood unless there was also an exit wound. The fact that there is not a great deal of blood on this wall suggests that either the spray pattern went in another direction or there was not an exit wound to produce a great deal. High velocity blood splatter leaves a fine spray only.



yes it could be alexandra's blood or tatiana/olga as well if i remember correctly they were stood behind their mother?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on July 31, 2008, 04:41:50 AM
Tom you are correct they were stood behind their Mother. All three would probably fallen backwards, and we know the daughters did not die in the first volley, unless the Empress went sideways depending on the angle of the bullets that hit her. Also if the Empress was killed by a bullet to the head as has been suggested there may not have been a great deal of blood unless there was also an exit wound. The fact that there is not a great deal of blood on this wall suggests that either the spray pattern went in another direction or there was not an exit wound to produce a great deal. High velocity blood splatter leaves a fine spray only.

according to FOTR she was hit in the head and the amount of brain and tissue wich came of an exit wound on the right side of her head and she slammed against the floor 'in a shower of brain and gore'. but i think the window was on her left-so it might not be her blood.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on July 31, 2008, 10:44:07 AM
Baltatsar was killed in that night by his servants.....--note on Ipatiev's cellar wall.....
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: mikeycoleman on July 31, 2008, 11:20:56 AM
Beltatsar was that very night
Seized by his slaves and killed outright.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 31, 2008, 12:55:33 PM
That was the one.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: AGRBear on August 12, 2008, 03:03:00 PM
The original poem was written by Heinrich Heine.

It is believed that the person who wrote the poem was someone who had higher education and may not have been a Russian, or, if he was had an educated grasp of proper German.   If I can remember where I read this information,  I'll post it.

I do have a question about the DNA/mtDNA.   According to the National Geographic tv program,  the person who was the spokes person for the testing concluded that  the male remains is believed  to be Alexis', and, that the female found is his sibling.   He mentioned that there was a match with the male with Alexandra and Nicholas II, therefore the male is the son of Alexandra and Nicholas II, and, the female is, therefore,  a grand duchess.   Maybe I missed it,  did they show us the proof that there are four different grand duchesses with four individual markers?

We have three markers [I think this is the term to use] of three grand duchesses whose remains were found in the mass grave.  They can be found in Dr. Gill's article:

(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/mtDNADifRomAA.jpg)   

AGRBear


Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 12, 2008, 04:00:30 PM
They don't need to Bear.  The female bones found with Alexei are already accounted for in the other skeletons and thus must be a fourth different female individual.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Michael HR on August 12, 2008, 04:56:54 PM
I must admit I have made this argument as well. IF there are four individual mtDNA they should able able to show that the are four persons with slightly differant DNA but from the same family and this all four are accounted for and there would be no argument at all. Siblings have very similar DNA but not quite the same. This was if there is four that is the end of it.

It should be quite a simple thing to do. Four remains and four DNA showing same mtDNA but slightly differant DNA patters to each other but members of same family. Chat would burst a blood vessel no doubt!

They don't need to Bear.  The female bones found with Alexei are already accounted for in the other skeletons and thus must be a fourth different female individual.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 12, 2008, 06:39:37 PM
Well, several points. One, this will all be wholly moot within a month or so when the full report is released. Second.  mtDNA is far more stable than nDNA, and there may not have been enough nDNA to sequence while there WAS enough mtDNA to sequence.

Frankly, who are we to be second guessing FOUR different teams who all looked at the remains and test results and said "we found them both, both of the missing children."

There is a lot of stuff happening that isn't public. The simple truth is that the two missing Imperial children have been found. They will hopefully soon be at rest with their family.  Nobody survived Ekaterinburg. The other logical implications of this are also correct, if you get my drift.

The "question" of "survivors" is now indeed the "myth of Survivors".

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Michael HR on August 12, 2008, 06:51:41 PM
I agree but I suspect others won't sadly.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: StevenL on August 12, 2008, 07:41:46 PM
I agree but I suspect others won't sadly.

Well, how about forgetting them in their misery and stop calling attention to the existence of their persisting disbelief. It doesn't matter.
No need to bait and/or berate the lingering inhabitants of "Andersonville" here. The case is closed for the rational world, but people are
free to go on believing what they need to believe.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 12, 2008, 07:59:41 PM
Surprisingly Steven, that world will end sooner than later. Can't and won't say more, but trust me, it will.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Michael HR on August 13, 2008, 03:41:18 AM
FA, we wait with anticipation.

:)
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: angele on October 10, 2008, 03:10:52 PM
Im pleased if they can all be together although would have felt happier from 1993 if bones especially recent ones had been carbon dated etc as happens  in other forensic archeology/pathology cases. I suppose also from a practical point of view it also has given some closure to the russian people and indeed some element of  national identity through a shared experience and without wishing to sound sarcastic, which is not intended, it is good for the Ekateringburg local economy
Also read with interest remarks about sophie buxhoevden. i hate being unfair to people but i believe Sydney gibbes had a very low opinion of her which seemed very closely linked to their exile together and wasnt just to do with the loan she gave her which she denied all knowledge of
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 12, 2008, 12:17:46 PM
Im pleased if they can all be together although would have felt happier from 1993 if bones especially recent ones had been carbon dated etc as happens  in other forensic archeology/pathology cases. I suppose also from a practical point of view it also has given some closure to the russian people and indeed some element of  national identity through a shared experience and without wishing to sound sarcastic, which is not intended, it is good for the Ekateringburg local economy
Also read with interest remarks about sophie buxhoevden. i hate being unfair to people but i believe Sydney gibbes had a very low opinion of her which seemed very closely linked to their exile together and wasnt just to do with the loan she gave her which she denied all knowledge of

A couple of points, carbon dating has a certain usefulness in archeology but is in general less reliable in identifying remains than DNA testing. So, you and we should pay close attention to what the DNA testing does and does not say.

As to the citiizens of the Urals, especially Ekaterinburg, I have been often told that there is a sense of shame about what happened especially to the Imperial children there, and now there is a desire for atonement.

As to Gibbes and Buxhoeveden, kindly discuss them in the Friends and Servants section - we do allow a bit of latitude here as to being on topic but you are stretching that way too far!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 12, 2008, 01:56:07 PM
To be honest the story, for me personal, will only be really closed as soon as the remains are lying at rest with the rest of their family, and when Ella will be buried in the convent(I've heard she expressed her wishes to be buried there), but sadly enough the reburial of the children and Ella can take years, and there is no way to be sure if Ella will be taken back to Russia in time
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on October 12, 2008, 02:35:12 PM
didn't that happen with MF ? wasn't almost 80 years before she was buried back in Russia? i have an article on it that i took form a magazine - i'll post it if anyone wants it
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 12, 2008, 02:42:05 PM
Yes, the The Late Douariere, MF was reburied in Russia in 2006 if I recall correctly, there was a report in the news back then too, I taped it and it has to be here somehwere:p
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 12, 2008, 10:19:10 PM
Maria Feodorovna was the last reigning empress prior to Alexandra. She was member of the ruling house of a close neighbor nation. Compared to Grand Duchess Elizabeth, who was not an empress, whose house is no longer ruling, there is no one who Russia cares about as a nation who would complain about the shameful way her wishes are disregarded.

The only person who might be able to change this would be the Duke of Edinburgh, but regardless of his personal feelings, would be constrained from doing so because he is married to a constitional monarch. The D of E is of course her grand nephew, but I don't see the UK being okay with this.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 12, 2008, 11:05:26 PM
"Reigning Empress", Lisa ?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 13, 2008, 01:34:35 AM
"Reigning Empress", Lisa ?

Well, how would you put it? She was crowned Empress and fulfilled the duties - perhaps not the best terms - but it could be argued that VM was "Empress" and I know no one is going to honor Alexandra.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 13, 2008, 10:04:29 AM
The Empress was more properly the Crowned Consort. The only "reining" Empresses were  the 2 Catherines, Anna & Elizabeth. Some would credit Anna Leoploldovna as well, but more correctly, in my view, she  was more "regent", like Sophia.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: angele on October 13, 2008, 11:26:14 AM
this is a for lisa many apologies if you thought it was inappropriate to mention buxhoeven and gibbes in this topic area but it had been mentioned earlier in the thread.
Also as regards mentioning carbon dating what i should possibly have stressed that there are other tests that it is helpful to do alongside dna testing to help  verify and confirm   along also with forensic pathology which of course was done etc etc particularily when dna, in scientific terms ,was in its infancy. coming from a medical/science background i have found the more information the better the chances of proper 'diagnosis'
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on October 13, 2008, 02:37:24 PM
this is a for lisa many apologies if you thought it was inappropriate to mention buxhoeven and gibbes in this topic area but it had been mentioned earlier in the thread.
Also as regards mentioning carbon dating what i should possibly have stressed that there are other tests that it is helpful to do alongside dna testing to help  verify and confirm   along also with forensic pathology which of course was done etc etc particularily when dna, in scientific terms ,was in its infancy. coming from a medical/science background i have found the more information the better the chances of proper 'diagnosis'

Not at all inappropriate. It was intended to be a gentle reminder to stay on topic, also to invite you to discuss Buxhoeveden and Gibbes on another. Welcome!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: AGRBear on December 01, 2008, 01:47:45 PM
http://www.searchfoundationinc.org/New-Press-Release.html

>>Official DNA results will be announced on December 5, 2008 from Ekaterinburg.
Dr. Michael Coble, Chief Scientist of the U.S. Army DNA Laboratory will present  results of the DNA tests done on the Romanov family remains by his laboratory.

The Director of the Sverdlovsk Regional Forensic Bureau, Dr.  N. Nevolin will present the results of the first DNA studies of  blood samples from Emperor Nicholas II. <<

AGRBear
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on December 05, 2008, 08:17:01 AM
Alexei and Maria remains confirmed to be authentic by Americans -- in Russian

http://www.justmedia.ru/news/society/2008/12/05/47997
http://www.nakanune.ru/news/2008/12/05/2140032

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 05, 2008, 08:22:00 AM
Has anything in English been released also? I can read azbuka, but don´t know many words....
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on December 05, 2008, 08:47:50 AM
Yes -- I have just found this:

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=5451

They compared DNA of Alexei Nicholaievich and Anrei Romanov.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 05, 2008, 09:34:22 AM
Thank you Nena! I´m going the spread the good news on other webs I know.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Jebediha on December 05, 2008, 09:49:39 AM
That is great news. Finaly the hole family can rest togheter in the grave in Peter and Paul Catedral
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: stacey on December 09, 2008, 05:55:27 AM
I just don't know how to feel about this.

I mean, I completely believe the DNA results. It's clear that these latest remains did belong to Alexei and Anastasia (or Marie). And of course the remains of their parents, sisters, and several family servants were found and buried several years ago. So, all of the family is now accounted for.

I'm glad about that, since at least now the youngest Romanovs will have a decent burial and be with the rest of their family, as they should be.

But on the other hand...while we all now know that all the so-called claimants (Alexei, Anastasia, Marie, etc) were not members of the Imperial Family, it still kind of makes me sad to know for a fact that no one survived that horrible night in 1918.

I would have liked to believe that at least one of them got away... :'(
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Jebediha on December 09, 2008, 09:57:31 AM
The one good thing that all off them know have been found. Is that we can stop hearing from those people who keep saying somebody survived. Even if it was a terribel thing that happend to them. I think it is good that it is finaly over and nobody can say that anybody survived. Sadly they all died that nigth becuse the only way anybody could have survived was if they did not go in to the house. Finaly they can all rest in peace togheter

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on December 14, 2008, 02:35:18 PM
as some people said in my topic ' no survivors-sad' it would have been life shattering if you had survived and all your family was murdered. it would probably drive you insane :(
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Alice on December 23, 2008, 07:55:57 PM
Did they find enough of the remains to determine whether the female is Marie or Anastasia, or is it an assumption that this is Marie (because "Anastasia" is interred with the others)? It'd be nice to know definitively, after all the arguments over the years about whose skull is whose.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: rgt9w on December 23, 2008, 08:32:56 PM
Does anyone have a copy or translation of the actual press announcement made by Dr. Coble? I've only seen snipets in the news reports.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on December 23, 2008, 09:54:10 PM
Did they find enough of the remains to determine whether the female is Marie or Anastasia, or is it an assumption that this is Marie (because "Anastasia" is interred with the others)? It'd be nice to know definitively, after all the arguments over the years about whose skull is whose.

I have been privy to the results.  There will never be any way to determine which girl was in which grave.  Anastasia, according to modern forensic scientists, had a growth spurt in Tobolsk and was exactly as tall as Maria by the time they were in Ekaterinburg.  Without original DNA to determine which girl was which, there will never be an answer to this question...That said, there is now no longer any doubt that ALL the daughters have been accounted for, as well as Alexei, and all the children share common DNA with the parents also found.  The male parent matches the DNA of GD George Alexandrlovich, down to the specific mutation, and the maternal parent shares the exact mtDNA of the Queen Vicotria line of descent.

They are all accounted for, but sadly, we will never know which daughter was in which grave.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Peterhof on December 23, 2008, 11:11:12 PM
Just to add that the parent male matches the DNA extracted from Nicholas' bloody shirt.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Holly on December 23, 2008, 11:20:53 PM
Anastasia grew to 5'7 in months?? Seriously? I can't believe that at all. I've never seen one picture or anything else that told of her growing or being tall. Quite the opposite. Where did these forensic scientists get their evidence for this sudden growth spurt? And if the remains for the newly found daughter are roughly 5'2 as previously said, how could they think it to be Maria? Maria was much taller than that.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Alice on December 23, 2008, 11:30:52 PM
Did they find enough of the remains to determine whether the female is Marie or Anastasia, or is it an assumption that this is Marie (because "Anastasia" is interred with the others)? It'd be nice to know definitively, after all the arguments over the years about whose skull is whose.

I have been privy to the results.  There will never be any way to determine which girl was in which grave.  Anastasia, according to modern forensic scientists, had a growth spurt in Tobolsk and was exactly as tall as Maria by the time they were in Ekaterinburg.  Without original DNA to determine which girl was which, there will never be an answer to this question...That said, there is now no longer any doubt that ALL the daughters have been accounted for, as well as Alexei, and all the children share common DNA with the parents also found.  The male parent matches the DNA of GD George Alexandrlovich, down to the specific mutation, and the maternal parent shares the exact mtDNA of the Queen Vicotria line of descent.

They are all accounted for, but sadly, we will never know which daughter was in which grave.

Thank you for your reply, FA.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 24, 2008, 03:03:24 PM
Anastasia grew to 5'7 in months?? Seriously? I can't believe that at all. I've never seen one picture or anything else that told of her growing or being tall. Quite the opposite. Where did these forensic scientists get their evidence for this sudden growth spurt? And if the remains for the newly found daughter are roughly 5'2 as previously said, how could they think it to be Maria? Maria was much taller than that.

Holly, I am known to be sarcastic myself, so I think we can overlook that. However:

1. We have no precise information on the height of any of the 4 daughters. We especially don't know how much the two youngest girls grew while in captivity. They may well have had growth spurts - I grew 2 inches between the ages 16 and 17 and one inch each after each child - so I was a relative "giant" compared with my 5' height at 16. It is entirely possible both grew several inches, but there's no way to prove it.
2. I have been told there are 4 individual DNA profiles for the grand duchesses' remains (or more precisely, the remains indicate 4 female siblings who are sisters to one another and the male sibling, and all five are the offspring of the remains believed to be Nicholas and Alexandra's). DNA of course has nothing to do with height (or ear pictures, or handwriting) as you well know.
3 We will probably never know which daughter was in the main grave and which was with Alexei. It's unfortunate, but that's the legacy of the Bolsheviks.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Holly on December 25, 2008, 12:44:41 AM
Thank you for the reply, Lisa.

I wasn't being sarcastic, if that's what you meant. I'm just so confused. I always read one thing and when I finally grasp that then read something entirely different and I really don't know what is true and what isn't.

I guess there really isn't much of a point in trying to analyze who was who in what graves. As long as there are four different girls now.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Proud_Olga on December 25, 2008, 02:27:56 PM
Anastasia grew to 5'7 in months?? Seriously? I can't believe that at all. I've never seen one picture or anything else that told of her growing or being tall. Quite the opposite. Where did these forensic scientists get their evidence for this sudden growth spurt? And if the remains for the newly found daughter are roughly 5'2 as previously said, how could they think it to be Maria? Maria was much taller than that.

Didn't Yurovsky (not sure of the spelling) describe Anastasia as being a small girl?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 25, 2008, 02:37:08 PM
I recall Yurovski wrote about Anastasia that she was youngest, attractive and fat. No mention of the heigh....
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: jgutmaker on December 25, 2008, 03:23:03 PM
I'm glad that the DNA matter is finally settled. Does anyone know if there are plans in the works to publish new, updated editions of The Final Chapter?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 30, 2008, 05:28:07 PM
Thank you for the reply, Lisa.

I wasn't being sarcastic, if that's what you meant. I'm just so confused. I always read one thing and when I finally grasp that then read something entirely different and I really don't know what is true and what isn't.

I guess there really isn't much of a point in trying to analyze who was who in what graves. As long as there are four different girls now.

Thank you for the clarification, and I realized that because there was no way to tell what you meant, I might have misunderstood you.

Because I am not a scientist, I pretty much have to take what's said at face value. We have been told there are 4 distinct female offspring of the Emperor and his wife in the two graves. If it later turns out that this is not the case (and I have no reason to believe this will happen), then we take this up again.

I have said all along (if you want to look at my posts for the past 4+ years):

1. We will never be sure of who was who until/if we find the 4th daughter. (I did not think about the possibility that #4 would be in worse condition than 1 - 3).
2. the difficulty being 4 girls who are sisters close in age and very old remains.
3. If I had to guess, I would go with Anastasia in Grave #1 because Bob is an artist who viewed the 1991 excavated remains and said one skull looked like her.

So we really can't know for sure unless we accept unscientific evidence such as #3 above.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on December 30, 2008, 07:34:00 PM
I think Anastasia was in grave no. 1 in 1991. I am not scientist, but I compared OTMA heights(and deeply looked at skull photos and read several times Yurovsky's and others' testimones) and used proportionals, and IMO, Maria was missing and found with Aleksei last year.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on December 31, 2008, 05:58:30 AM
Thats what I believe too. But one thing plagues my mind -
did they want to burn Alix&Alexi ? then it would make sense that Maria was missing from grave1 (height,smashed face,bloated body)

or did they want to burn the two smallest victims to save time?  this confuses me, Maria was qutie tall, Anastasia was small.unless the bodies shrunk rapdily when outside?

thanks,

Tom
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 31, 2008, 06:16:52 AM
I believe yurovski wote that they meant to burn Alexandra and mistook her for Demidova. And Demidova was also quite tall - at least Radzinski wrote so.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on December 31, 2008, 06:30:20 AM
yes I've read that too.I feel so sorry for Demidova, she's left in the background alot just a name. infact it was onlyabout 6/7 months ago that I found out Demidova was her last name!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Lemur on December 31, 2008, 03:42:44 PM
Thats what I believe too. But one thing plagues my mind -
did they want to burn Alix&Alexi ?

Tom

Most likely the reason would be because Alexei was the heir to the dynasty, and burning him would be putting an end to it. Unlike in some other cultures, burning a body is not an honor in Russia, but an insult. The ROC does not even condone cremation. Why burn Alix? Houw about because she was the most hated, and many blamed her for the country's problems, and the collapse of the government.

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on December 31, 2008, 03:45:45 PM
ah! thank-you Lemur, you make interesting points
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Geniebeanie on December 31, 2008, 10:27:36 PM
Anyone know when the show will reair?   I want to see it really bad.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: EmmyLee on January 01, 2009, 12:14:46 PM
1. We will never be sure of who was who until/if we find the 4th daughter. (I did not think about the possibility that #4 would be in worse condition than 1 - 3).
2. the difficulty being 4 girls who are sisters close in age and very old remains.
3. If I had to guess, I would go with Anastasia in Grave #1 because Bob is an artist who viewed the 1991 excavated remains and said one skull looked like her.

So we really can't know for sure unless we accept unscientific evidence such as #3 above.

I don't think any of us really thought about how the remains of the fourth daughter would be in worse condition than the others. I know I didn't. I'd always thought that Alexei and Maria's bodies would be found in roughly the same condition, if not a bit more charred. And for your third point, I agree that, in my opinion, the disputed skull does resemble Anastasia more than Maria despite the fact that I'm not forensic scientist. However, I also agree that thinking a skull looks like someone more than another doesn't give one much certainty on the matter.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 01, 2009, 12:26:21 PM
At the end of the day, it does not matter which was buried where- they are all accounted for. What I would like to see now, is proper recognition of the remains by the ROC. Perhaps even including a formal internment of the  newly found, with the rest of the family.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Michael HR on January 01, 2009, 12:27:07 PM
Could not agree with you more Robert
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on January 01, 2009, 12:27:47 PM
I agree Robert, it's the least they deserve
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 01, 2009, 12:44:03 PM
And a proper burrial.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Peterhof on January 01, 2009, 03:06:05 PM
I really hope they show the burial on US TV, it'll be really emotional.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 01, 2009, 03:39:58 PM
If the burial is at SS. Peter and Paul (as it should be), my opinion is that it will be very understated in scope. After all, the general turn-out for the "original family burial" was not considered to be massive in PUBLIC participation. Obviously the interior burial ceremony itself was private and by invitation, or some semblance thereof.  I personally viewed the chapel burial site some months later, and at that time (it was winter) a person was allowed to enter the smaller chapel and could even touch the above-ground tomb. Out of respect, I did not touch it. There were few people there, and the atmosphere was very quiet and dignified. I understand that you now must view it from a more distant space.  I understood that because of the cost, it was made of faux marble (marblelized wood), to be later replaced by real marble.  I do not know yet if this has been done.    AP
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: imperial angel on January 05, 2009, 11:42:36 PM
What are the plans regarding the burial now? I agree I read different things too, like Holly and it gets confusing. Marie was said to be fairly tall, Anastasia short, but it is possible Anastasia grew in their last months, although the prior accounts we have suggest she was pretty short, and Marie was about 5'7. So where did it say the skeleton in this grave was 5'2? It's difficult to estimate height from these remains, isn't?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on January 06, 2009, 05:56:14 AM
I wonder too, they should have a proper burial. And ofcourse rest at peace with the rest of their family as they deserve.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Michael HR on January 06, 2009, 09:56:05 AM
I think this burial should be low key but of course they should rest with the rest of the family and the sooner the better. Perhaps just Prince Nicholas present to represent the Dynasty would suffice.

A sad day but long overdue. 
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: imperial angel on January 06, 2009, 01:50:41 PM
Yes, I hope the burial is quiet and respectful. It doesn't really matter which girl was in what grave, but they should all rest in peace so I hope we soon hear more about what will happen with the burial.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: tom_romanov on January 06, 2009, 02:23:44 PM
yes I believe we should hear something soon especially on this forum with 5988 member is all corners of the globe. it would be nice to see pictures of the ceremony if/when it happens.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on January 17, 2009, 12:21:25 AM
THIS IS GREAT NEWS NOW  THANKS BE TO GOD   THEY CAN REST IN PEACE  :'( I DONT ABOUT ANYBODY ELSE BUT I BELIVE IN HEAVEN  AND I BELIVE THEY ARE THEIR  ;D   AND SOMEDAY ILL JOIN THEM  :)  GOODS WILL BE DONE   happy Medvedev likes NII 8) KEEP ME POSTED ABOUT NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Carisbrooke on January 21, 2009, 07:01:08 AM
REUTERS:
By James Kilner
updated 10:42 a.m. CT, Wed., July. 16, 2008

YEKATERINBURG, Russia - Russia said on Wednesday that charred remains found in a pit belonged to Czar Nicholas II's only son and his daughter, exactly 90 years after the Bolsheviks shocked the world by murdering the last Czar.

Moscow's confirmation that the remains included those of Czar Nicholas' 13-year-old heir, Prince Alexei, came as hundreds of Russians flocked to a church built on the site where the family was gunned down by Bolshevik executioners.

Nicholas II, lampooned by the Soviets as a failure, is considered by many Russians today as a martyr and presented as a symbol of the imperial glory which many now seek to recapture.I
n a sign of renewed interest in the imperial past, the last Czar is in first place in an Internet poll to select the greatest Russians, having overtaken Soviet dictator Josef Stalin this week.

"He is a symbol of a great and powerful Russia who also did great things for the country," 18-year-old Yevgeny Chindyasky said at the Church on the Blood where Russian Orthodox believers gathered to mark the 90th anniversary of the Czar's execution.

The Bolsheviks shot the Czar and his family on the night of July 16-17, 1918, in the basement of a merchant's house in the city of Yekaterinburg, 1,450 km (900 miles) east of Moscow.

The bodies of Russia's imperial rulers were burnt, doused in acid to make subsequent identification difficult and dumped in pits without a proper Orthodox burial.

Remains believed to belong to the Czar, his wife and three of his daughters were exhumed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They were reburied in 1998 in the imperial crypt of the St. Peter and Paul Cathedral in St Petersburg.

But Prince Alexei Nikolayevich and 19-year-old Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna were not among those remains.

Last year bone fragments and teeth belonging to two young people were found about 77 yards away from the site where Russia's imperial rulers had been buried.

Teeth and fillings
Forensic scientists said molar teeth and amalgam fillings found with the new remains matched those found among the remains of the other members of the royal family.

Scull fragments showed injuries consistent with bullet wounds. Numerous genetic tests showed the remains of both groups belonged to one family group.

"The overall scientific results, which were based on DNA tests using three genetic systems, agrees with the hypothesis that in the second burial site the remains of Grand Duchess Maria and Tsarevich Alexei have been found," the Prosecutor-General's Office said in a statement.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Kremlin and many Russians have sought to reconnect with their pre-revolutionary past.

President Dmitry Medvedev has said he admires Nicholas II, whom many historians blame for being too weak and setting Russia on a path to civil war and dictatorship.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25704389/
Are we really sure about story closed, for there are more than a few questions to be asked about the 2007 site. 1st reports indicated that dress fabric was found along with the bone fragments. If this was so how did the dress fabric come to be at the pigs meadow location, as all clothing was destroyed at the 4 brothers mine. Also found at the site were 3 spent bullets, 2 of which were in pristine condition. How did these projectiles escape the intense heat of the funeral pyre not to mention the acid. DNA aside, have I missed some announcements here, & have these issues been resolved. 
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on January 21, 2009, 09:24:54 AM
Yes, the story is well and truly closed.  All the DNA testing is finished and concludes without doubt the existence of remains from four different female siblings whose ages correspond exactly to OTMA, a male sibling to the four different females aged 12-16, and the biological male and female parents of all five children.  DNA sequencing confirms the male adult parent as Emperor Nicholas II, including an exact match to the remains of his brother George Alexandrovich, and a more recent test confirms it as Nicholas all though I'm not at liberty as yet to disclose the exact nature of this, but you will hear about it soon enough.  The adult female parent is a perfect mtDNA match to the Queen Victoria female descent lineage which leads to a 99.99% scientific certainty (which is 100% for general usage) that is Empress Alexandra Feodorovna.  The parental DNA link to the five children is without question.

The "dress" material first reported was in fact an Imperial Russian Navy Seaman's undershirt exactly matching the ones favored by Alexei, which is supported precisely by one account of the disposing of the body as being the only piece of clothing in fact not burned, but left on Alexei as he was obviously not carrying any jewels. 

As for the bullets., there could be a million possible explanations for how they got there, but the unquestionable conclusions of the DNA and forensic analysis renders any such questions well and truly moot because Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei are all accounted  for and identified as the Romanovs...



Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: DNAgenie on March 03, 2009, 11:57:13 PM
You can read a general report of the definitive DNA analysis at 
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/02/y-chromosome-of-tsar-nicholas-ii.html
 
Then if you click on the "online" link in the middle of the report, or click on
http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2009/02/27/0811190106.DCSupplemental/0811190106SI.pdf
which is the same thing, you should get a copy of the full scientific paper.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Carisbrooke on March 09, 2009, 07:59:20 AM
I would feel more comfortable with the findiings, if there was an archaeological dig report available to compliment the DNA, even a retrospective one. Does such a report exist ? I have tried the search function.     HELP
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Lemur on March 09, 2009, 12:13:01 PM
I would feel more comfortable with the findiings, if there was an archaeological dig report available to compliment the DNA, even a retrospective one. Does such a report exist ? I have tried the search function.     HELP

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=8k0c97sruir1agaitg48dggpt6&topic=10916.msg305973;topicseen#msg305973
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Carisbrooke on March 10, 2009, 07:56:33 AM
Many thanks lemur, this looks great. Wonder when Sergei is going to publish a full report, it all seems to be taking so long.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on March 11, 2009, 08:15:27 PM
Yes, the story is well and truly closed.  All the DNA testing is finished and concludes without doubt the existence of remains from four different female siblings whose ages correspond exactly to OTMA, a male sibling to the four different females aged 12-16, and the biological male and female parents of all five children.  DNA sequencing confirms the male adult parent as Emperor Nicholas II, including an exact match to the remains of his brother George Alexandrovich, and a more recent test confirms it as Nicholas all though I'm not at liberty as yet to disclose the exact nature of this, but you will hear about it soon enough.  The adult female parent is a perfect mtDNA match to the Queen Victoria female descent lineage which leads to a 99.99% scientific certainty (which is 100% for general usage) that is Empress Alexandra Feodorovna.  The parental DNA link to the five children is without question.

The "dress" material first reported was in fact an Imperial Russian Navy Seaman's undershirt exactly matching the ones favored by Alexei, which is supported precisely by one account of the disposing of the body as being the only piece of clothing in fact not burned, but left on Alexei as he was obviously not carrying any jewels. 

As for the bullets., there could be a million possible explanations for how they got there, but the unquestionable conclusions of the DNA and forensic analysis renders any such questions well and truly moot because Nicholas, Alexandra, Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei are all accounted  for and identified as the Romanovs...





Finally, the official report has been released:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0004838


As you will see in the report on the DNA analysis, a previously unknown shirt stained with blood of Nicholas II during the Otsu incident was located in the Russian archives and the "fresh" blood sample on the shirt exactly matched the DNA of the Ekaterinburg bones believed to be Nicholas, as well as George Alexandrovich. 

There is now no longer any "wiggle room" about the remains. All are well and truly found.  Discussion is now underway with the Russian Church on the subject.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on March 12, 2009, 05:49:23 AM


Thank you very much for the link!









Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on March 16, 2009, 11:09:23 PM
Even though they've all been found, it's still bothering me we don't know who was buried with Aleksey: Maria or Anastasia. They attempted to disfigure the bodies, so maybe they buried two people separately to confuse whoever might find the grave(yet they didn't anticipate DNA and science at the time!).

How was this second grave with Aleksey and Maria(Anastasia?) found, by the way?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 16, 2009, 11:24:23 PM
Even though they've all been found, it's still bothering me we don't know who was buried with Aleksey: Maria or Anastasia. They attempted to disfigure the bodies, so maybe they buried two people separately to confuse whoever might find the grave(yet they didn't anticipate DNA and science at the time!).

How was this second grave with Aleksey and Maria(Anastasia?) found, by the way?

The second grave was found in 2007 by amateur archaeologists working with materials left by Yurovsky.

One of the statements left by the Ural Bolsheviks indicates that the two separate graves were indeed a deliberate attempt to confuse anyone looking for the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: nena on March 17, 2009, 05:10:14 PM
They found on July 29th 2007, using Yurovsky's testimonies, I believe Maria was buried with heir. That Russian said.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Alice on July 10, 2009, 02:55:47 AM
As I understand it, the only reason that these remains were identified as Maria and Alexei is because the Russians thought Anastasia was in the main grave.

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4784/27842841.jpg) (http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/5494/mariecwm.jpg)

Above are the images from www.searchfoundationinc.org. In the top left of each composite, is the girl in question. Below that is the facial reconstruction from Skull No. 6. To the right is the superimposition of the facial reconstruction over the girls' heads.

Allegedly this is "Anastasia" but IMO the nose and the shape of the top of the head is more like Maria. In the super impositions, Anastasia appears to be a closer match than Maria, but neither is an exact match.

(Note: I agree that the most important thing is that all the remains have been found. But I find this debate interesting).
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Carisbrooke on August 25, 2009, 07:11:45 AM
Clarification required from anyone please. Of the items DNA tested from the 2007 find, do we have the following results.

TABLE 1
-No's  139  &  142                                     = no results
-No's  144.1  146.1  & 147  are male            = Alexei
-No's  141  145  140  &  143  are female       = Anastasia or Maria

I was under the impression before the results were published, that sample No 146 was Alexei & No 147 was Anastasia or Maria. But now 146 & 147 share the same sequence number of -      16111T,  16357C  16519C,  263G,  315.1C,  524.1A,  524.2C

     
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Carisbrooke on August 27, 2009, 01:44:36 AM
I will try again.

Of the 10 items tested, only 3 produced a full sequence  144.1  146.1  &  147

146.1  =  Alexei
147     =  Anastasia or Maria

Both share the same M,DNA sequence, though I'm not sure how gender is indicated within that sequence.         I think I'm getting there.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 29, 2009, 01:28:14 PM
What precisely is your point? Not all our Forum Members are scientists, you know. Or are you being deliberately obtuse?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2009, 04:23:12 PM
I have no idea either actually Lisa...The scientific conclusions state what they state, so I'm not certain what is to be gained from his questions...

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: kadang on August 29, 2009, 10:27:33 PM
I will try again.

Of the 10 items tested, only 3 produced a full sequence  144.1  146.1  &  147

146.1  =  Alexei
147     =  Anastasia or Maria

Both share the same M,DNA sequence, though I'm not sure how gender is indicated within that sequence.         I think I'm getting there.

MtDNA cannot be used to identify the sex of the individual. All of the samples share the same mtDNA sequence because they are maternally related. MtDNA is passed along the maternal line, so sons and daughters from the same mother will carry the same mtDNA.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Carisbrooke on September 01, 2009, 06:59:58 AM
I'm just trying to determine the gender of samples 146.1 & 147 as they are a left & right femur respectively. I'm sure the results are correct but as a newbie I would rather understand the results than just being told. Also it does not help when we know very little of the other items excavated, catalogue No's 1 to 500 plus.

I don't think I'm being obtuse, I just want to know more. But every time anyone dares mention anything to do with provenance some people tend to go into twitchy mode.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 02, 2009, 12:46:00 AM
I'm just trying to determine the gender of samples 146.1 & 147 as they are a left & right femur respectively. I'm sure the results are correct but as a newbie I would rather understand the results than just being told. Also it does not help when we know very little of the other items excavated, catalogue No's 1 to 500 plus.

I don't think I'm being obtuse, I just want to know more. But every time anyone dares mention anything to do with provenance some people tend to go into twitchy mode.

Asking questions is hardly twitchy. Prince Nicholas was told there were the remains of a female and of a male. I would think a scientific article will be published as one was for the earlier find.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Carisbrooke on September 02, 2009, 06:55:51 AM
Many thanks Lisa. Any published article of that description would be helpful. Also I will try to be more precise with my posts in future.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 02, 2009, 08:05:51 AM
Many thanks Lisa. Any published article of that description would be helpful. Also I will try to be more precise with my posts in future.

And, patience with those of us non scientists would be helpful. I think it was a couple of years from the date the results were announced and the article was published.

Welcome to the Forum!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 14, 2010, 05:17:26 AM
Is it true that the one who was in Alexei's grave was a carrier of hemophiliae and the other girls in the maingrave not?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 14, 2010, 10:21:04 AM
Did they actually test any of the remains for hemophilia gene? I think I missed that...
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 14, 2010, 10:33:09 AM
Yes they did and also found out that Alexei was carrier of hemophiliae B, rarer type of this disease.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: EmmyLee on August 14, 2010, 05:34:50 PM
I haven't heard of any testing on this either. Where did you get this information?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 15, 2010, 02:53:59 AM
I've seen a (german) documentation about the last two bodies found in 2007 (can't remember the name but I'll try to find it if I have a minute)

Also it stood on wiki (though I know this is not a reliable source):

"DNA testing on the remains of the royal family proved in 2009 that Alexei suffered from hemophilia B, a rarer form of the disease. The same testing proved that his mother and one of the four Grand Duchesses were carriers. Russians identify the grand duchess who carried the gene as Anastasia, but American scientists identified the young woman as Maria."
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on August 15, 2010, 09:50:26 AM
They couldn't tell which girl was which, but they could tell the bones were that of a brother and sister.  It doesn't matter which of the Little Pair it is, this closes the door on any idea of any of them escaping.  The Flat Earthers can believe what they want, but all the IF died that day, case closed.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 15, 2010, 10:24:39 AM
I think, you didn't read carefully ;) It was not the question if Maria or Anastasia was buried with Alexis. I pointed out, that an analysis was done which showed, that the girl with Alexis was a carrier of hemophilia. Which is quite interesting I thought. Additionally it's interesting that - with a chance of 50/50 - just one of four girls had this gen (or gen-defect, I don't know) and that it was the rarer type of this disease. And obviously - because so many scientist are sure - it was Maria, the one who wanted to have children most which I find more tragically.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 15, 2010, 10:28:25 AM
The Genetic markers for Haemophilia were not tested on the Alexei remains.  Here is the entire original report for you to read.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0004838#s2

Please note this conclusion of the work : "we found that the DNA evidence is 4.36 trillion times more likely if sample 147 is a daughter of Tsar Nicholas II and Tsarina Alexandra, and over 80 trillion times more likely if sample 146.1 is a son of Tsar Nicholas II and Tsarina Alexandra than if these samples were from two unrelated individuals."


That is TRILLION.

There was no testing for haemophilia on either of the new remains done, if one reads the report.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Elisabeth on August 15, 2010, 10:48:30 AM
The Genetic markers for Haemophilia were not tested on the Alexei remains....
There was no testing for haemophilia on either of the new remains done, if one reads the report.

It's a pity they didn't test for genetic markers for hemophilia in any of the remains. Undoubtedly they would have found such markers not only in Aleksei's remains but also in Alexandra's and in some if not all of her daughters'. It's interesting that Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna believed, according to her biographer Vorres, that all four of NII and Alexandra's daughters were probably hemophilia carriers. Maria, for example, suffered a terrible hemorrhage having her tonsils out, and nearly died; and while still a toddler Olga suffered a huge, bulbous blue bruise from knocking her head against a table (according to N and A's own letters). Unusual and profuse bleeding, as well as a propensity to bruise easily and severely, are symptoms of female hemophilia carriers. But of course we'll never know the truth, unless their remains are tested again, which seems unlikely (and also undesirable from a moral standpoint if not a scientific one) since they have all already been interred with Orthodox rites.   
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 15, 2010, 11:20:32 AM

There was no testing for haemophilia on either of the new remains done, if one reads the report.

There was one:

http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2009/10/08-02.html (http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2009/10/08-02.html)

plus a documentation I've seen a few months ago in german TV.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 15, 2010, 11:40:35 AM
I don't have access to the full article in Science.  Perhaps one of our readers does.  It does appear that Rogaev did go back and re test for hemophilia, as I found this more complete story online:

http://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing/study-finds-hemophilia-b-causing-mutation-russian-royal-remains

I stand corrected.

(I do have to wonder what JK makes of this report???)
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on August 15, 2010, 03:05:16 PM
Well, I don't suppose it matters much now anyway.  The remains have been ID'd, that is all that matters.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: katherine2001 on August 15, 2010, 04:17:09 PM
The Genetic markers for Haemophilia were not tested on the Alexei remains....
There was no testing for haemophilia on either of the new remains done, if one reads the report.

It's a pity they didn't test for genetic markers for hemophilia in any of the remains. Undoubtedly they would have found such markers not only in Aleksei's remains but also in Alexandra's and in some if not all of her daughters'. It's interesting that Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna believed, according to her biographer Vorres, that all four of NII and Alexandra's daughters were probably hemophilia carriers. Maria, for example, suffered a terrible hemorrhage having her tonsils out, and nearly died; and while still a toddler Olga suffered a huge, bulbous blue bruise from knocking her head against a table (according to N and A's own letters). Unusual and profuse bleeding, as well as a propensity to bruise easily and severely, are symptoms of female hemophilia carriers. But of course we'll never know the truth, unless their remains are tested again, which seems unlikely (and also undesirable from a moral standpoint if not a scientific one) since they have all already been interred with Orthodox rites.   

Since none of the daughters married and reproduced, why would those tests have needed to be done?  Is it really our business if they were carriers or not?  Why would we need to know this?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 16, 2010, 01:53:44 AM
If you are not interested in it than you don't have to read it  ;) But there are surely a few members here - like me - who are very interested in it. Its needed for scientific progress and quite awesome that we are no in the position to prove which kind of hemophiliae a boy had who lived nineteen years ago. And that only one sister was a carrier and contemporary witnesses - like Olga A. - were not right in suggesting that all the girls were carriers because of bleeding so much. For me, its quite interesting no matter if they reproduced or not.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 16, 2010, 10:22:46 AM
I am glad the haemophilia testing was done and the question put to rest, for one reason and one only.  It finally shuts up an annoying journalist who had pretensions of biochemistry knowledge and hitched his wagon to a ludicrous claimant and could only crow that Alexei did not actually have haemophilia but some other blood disease to protect his reputation for backing an Alexei claimant.  Now at least, he can eat his well deserved crow for dinner.

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 16, 2010, 12:14:32 PM
Here is what I was told:

Testing for genetic markers  was done on all of the purported children of Nicholas and Alexandra.

Olga, Tatiana, and Maria were not carriers of hemophilia, so the disease would not have been passed on to their children.
Anastasia tested positive as a carrier of hemophilia, so her children could have had the disease or been carriers.
Alexei had hemophilia and I believe his daughters would have inherited the disease from him.

I was kept informed throughout the testing. I am not a scientist (I only made it through Biology because my girlfriend did the dissections and I did the lab notes!) and not a geneticist. Any misunderstanding of how this disease is passed down to the next generation is my own and not the scientists.

I was told that hemophilia tends to breed out quickly from families as it did with QV's in a few generations.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Silja on August 16, 2010, 02:54:53 PM

plus a documentation I've seen a few months ago in german TV.

Which channel was it on? I always check for respective programmes on my favourite subjects, but there was no programme I came across in the last few months. Would be annoying to know to have missed it.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 17, 2010, 04:56:32 AM
I thought on vox  (maybe at bbc) or on zdf. I don't know it exactly anymore... :(
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Elisabeth on August 17, 2010, 11:35:54 AM
Here is what I was told:

Testing for genetic markers  was done on all of the purported children of Nicholas and Alexandra.

Olga, Tatiana, and Maria were not carriers of hemophilia, so the disease would not have been passed on to their children.
Anastasia tested positive as a carrier of hemophilia, so her children could have had the disease or been carriers.
Alexei had hemophilia and I believe his daughters would have inherited the disease from him.

I was kept informed throughout the testing. I am not a scientist (I only made it through Biology because my girlfriend did the dissections and I did the lab notes!) and not a geneticist. Any misunderstanding of how this disease is passed down to the next generation is my own and not the scientists.

I was told that hemophilia tends to breed out quickly from families as it did with QV's in a few generations.

Hi, Lisa, I'm confused. Were these Russian or British or American tests? Because as everyone here knows there was a huge controversy between the American and Russian experts as to which daughter was missing from the first grave. The Russians insisted it was Maria, while the Americans were equally vehement that it was Anastasia (meanwhile one Russian specialist commented that with daughters so close in age to each other, it was actually impossible to distinguish one from the other scientifically, and anyone who claimed to be able to do so was being less than aboveboard - I tend to trust his point of view the most).

So I am curious, because judging from the results it sounds as if these DNA tests for hemophilia were conducted in Russia. But can you confirm this? Was it Professor Rogaev and his team?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 17, 2010, 12:31:48 PM
The haemophilia testing was done by Rogaev and his team. Please read the link I posted, it should answer most of your questions. The "controversy" is pretty moot now, as all girls are accounted for, so who cares at all if the Russian or US were "right" about identifying Anastasia or Maria initially...both are conclusively now found.

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Elisabeth on August 17, 2010, 01:51:34 PM
Thanks, FM, as I said, I was confused. Of course, obviously, all the remains of the IF such that could be recovered, have been recovered, and along with servants and doctor all totaled accounting for eleven souls. It's just that, you have to understand, some of us here want to dot all the i's and cross all the t's, not because we doubt that the IF was murdered in Ekaterinburg on the night of July 16-17, 1918, but because we actually care about the individuals involved and sincerely want to know, in this instance, whether it was Anastasia or Maria who actually had the DNA markers of a hemophilia carrier. It would be ironic and horribly tragic in Maria's case, if she was the carrier, because she so wanted to have children. But of course we'll never know for sure one way or the other, and in the wider, historical sense, you're right, it counts for nothing.

Still, I thought this was one place where the IF still counted for something, as individuals.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Grand Duchess Valeria on August 17, 2010, 03:04:08 PM
I couldn't say it better. Thanks!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 17, 2010, 03:10:08 PM
The IF DO count as individuals.  The point is simply that because of the closeness of age between Anastasia and Maria and the particular stage of their physical development makes it utterly impossible to ever determine which girl's remains are who's specifically.  The DNA does show a sibling relationship between the girls and the Alexei remains, and a clear parental relation to the Nicholas and Alexandra, and Nicholas has been matched with the Otsu blood and Prince Andrew Romanov...

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on August 19, 2012, 01:03:53 PM
Unfortunately, this story will never be closed. Given the circumstances surrounding the murder and burial, there is room for a lot of conspiracy theories. It does not help that the executioners, the only witnesses to the killings, gave accounts which were inaccurate and full of contradictions. Thus, some people will never believe what happened on the 17th July 1918. These results should finally put this chapter in Russian history to rest, but given the questions which surrounded the discovery of the 1991 bones I doubt this will happen. The Orthodox Church should just admit their error and recognise these remains.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on August 20, 2012, 04:53:04 PM
Given that there are still people who believe the Earth is flat, despite all the evidence, I can see why this whole "they escaped" thing refuses to die.  Some people just believe what they want to believe, science and history be damned.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on August 21, 2012, 02:53:33 AM
Given that there are still people who believe the Earth is flat, despite all the evidence, I can see why this whole "they escaped" thing refuses to die.  Some people just believe what they want to believe, science and history be damned.

Well said, Tim.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on August 21, 2012, 03:08:47 AM
Just a thought I had, but when Yurovsky described how he mixed up the bodies of Alexandra and Demidova, when in actual fact he burnt one of the Grand Duchesses, perhaps it was indeed Maria. I was thinking this because in terms of height and build, Maria and Demidova were both tall and seemed to have the same body type (if that makes sense). I guess it doesn't really matter now because they have all been found and we'll probably never figure out who was who. That part of the story will forever remain a mystery to us.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ortipo on August 27, 2012, 03:19:17 PM
Help!  A month or so back I came across an online video of the last 2 childrens' remains being mishandled by scientists and can no longer find it (a few of the comments regarded the mishandling).  The video was labeled in Spanish or Portuguese?  Can someone point me please?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Rodney_G. on August 27, 2012, 04:37:43 PM
Just a thought I had, but when Yurovsky described how he mixed up the bodies of Alexandra and Demidova, when in actual fact he burnt one of the Grand Duchesses, perhaps it was indeed Maria. I was thinking this because in terms of height and build, Maria and Demidova were both tall and seemed to have the same body type (if that makes sense). I guess it doesn't really matter now because they have all been found and we'll probably never figure out who was who. That part of the story will forever remain a mystery to us.

Well Yurovsky could have, and did, mix  up the female body burned with Alexei's. It may have been somewhat understandable under those conditions of stress and tiredness; the scientists and DNA  specialists examining the female's remains would be a different story, and they've identified them within a two year range which would account for both of the Little Pair.
Now do the right thing and bury the last two Imperial children with love and respect.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: blessOTMA on August 28, 2012, 01:28:06 AM
It's to be remembered by the time those bodies were burned they were not in great shape and it was at night. Even with a roaring fire for light ,it would be easy to be mistaken about who you were  burning.
Quote
Now do the right thing and bury the last two Imperial children with love and respect.
Indeed

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on August 28, 2012, 02:17:33 AM
One thing that I have always been very sceptical over regarding this matter of the 'mis identification' of the remains by the Bolsheviks is that of hair length. The cleaning ladies who were the amongst the very last outsiders to see the family described the four GD's hair as being tussled and 'falling to/about their shoulders, ie shoulder length, this is consistant with the time scales and photos from Tobolsk that by July 1918 the four daughter's hair length would have grown back after being shaved for measles to about their shoulders.

The Empress and Demidova consistent with the fashion of the time both had hair down to their waists which was worn up. AF's diary in the last months often makes reference to the Empress being helped to wash her hair, again an indication as to its length. Nyuta/Demidova may have had her hair shorn but its not recorded and very unlikely as it was very much against the custom of the time, the 20's 'bob' not coming in until well, the 1920's.

Therefore the two eldest female victims, AF and Demidova would have had hair a good foot and a half/30-50cm longer than any of the GDs. Even in very poor light conditions and allowing for the deterioration of the remains this would have been an unmistakable marker to anyone who had had contact with the family and their suite before the masacre. After being striped and thrown down the mineshaft any hair pins holding up the two elder ladies hair would have fallen out leaving their hair to fall loose.

We know that at this stage most of those involved in the burial had not had contact with the victims when they were alive. However Yurovsky certainly had and his 'note' or notes, place him at the scene when two of the victims were separated for burning. As I stated the length of the hair would have been obvious to Yurovsky and so this mis identification between the two elder ladies and one of the GD's is not IMO very believable from him. My belief is that he wasn't there when this happended and was trying to cover up that fact.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on August 28, 2012, 02:28:26 AM
Or maybe they were trying to throw potential identifiers off the track.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on August 28, 2012, 03:04:37 AM
Vanya

That is a good point about the hair.

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on August 28, 2012, 03:59:38 AM
Thanks Ann. Another aspect of this that has always confused me is if it was all so confusing as to who was who, then how was Yurovsky able to determine 'after the fact' as it where that they had made a mistake and burnt 'the maid' instead of AF with such clarity?

He therefore HAS to have examined the remaining bodies after his subordinates had already burnt two of the victims. However again, this proves he was perfectly able to correctly identify the Empress at this stage, therefore, it is not that plausible that he would not have also been able distinguish between Demidova and one of the girls. As stated above the hair alone would have told him this. The gruesome distinction that he is aware AF was not burned shows he must have examined the remaining bodies quite thoroughly.

I don't think it was a red herring either as even if the the Bolsheviks were worried in 1922 that there might be another political climate change, muddying the disinction between poor Anna Demidova and one of the GD's would not throw anyone off 'the scent' much given the (as we now know) level of consistently correct and detailed information in the note as to the whereabouts and contents of both graves. IMO Yurovsky is lying over this point and knew full well that it was one of the GD's who was burnt with the Tsarevich and most likely which one.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on August 28, 2012, 12:06:11 PM
Quote
IMO Yurovsky is lying over this point and knew full well that it was one of the GD's who was burnt with the Tsarevich and most likely which one.


That wouldn't surprise me, Thea.  Lying is what these guys did best.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LadyHezter on August 28, 2012, 12:10:03 PM
Interesting point, Vanya.
I have also always wondered how Yourowsky could have been so sure that is was NOT  AF who had been burnt. He, and the others
must have been counting the bodies-,a  last time to see that "all 11 were there", 2 bodies burnt, and 9 bodies left to be buried .

LadyH
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Rodney_G. on August 28, 2012, 12:20:02 PM
Vanya, your insight is excellent and it's the first time I've heard that line of reasoning re the confusion of which female was burned separately.

According to Yurovsky we have this implicit scenario. While on the scene himself, he ordered Alexandra's body burned. Did he not see the wrong (non-Alexandra) body pulled aside , aliong with Alexei's? Was he so disengaged that he ordered the separation of the female body while not close enough to see that it was the right one? The men/guards doing this grisly work, unlike Yurovsky himself, would probably not be able to distinguish Alexandra in that condition from Devidova (or MarieN..).
Did Yurovsky leave this burning entirely to the men, only to stroll over to  the scene after the fires were out and the burning process ended? This is implied insofar as Yurovsky seems to have become aware of the mistake while still on the site. The question arises, if Yurovsky couldn't or didn't distinguish between  the  dead Alexandra and Demidova/Marie before the burning, how would the proper identification (or rather, awareness of the mistake ) be any easier after the corpse is now charred and disfigured?

Also, if it was important to burn and bury Alexei and Alexandra's bodies separately, why didn't Yurovsky order Alexandra's body burned after he became aware of the error? Possibly because of lack of time free from observation, but this suggests that its burning and separate burial weren't critical to his overall mission.

The question also arises, why did Yurovsky admit his mistake in this note? Why did he go on record to Soviet history as having botched at least this part of the burial, even if in fact he rightly claimed that all were buried? Was he really so scrupulous at his own expense? It's unlikely he would have feared contradiction from less credible eyewitnesses., who would have been reluctant to challenge the prominent Soviet offficial who had authority to murder the Imperial Family.

I'm not averse to piling on Yurovsky, just trying to understand his presumed rationale and thinking.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on August 28, 2012, 05:01:04 PM
Wasn't Yurovsky also in a rush?  The Whites were getting closer and closer, after all.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on August 29, 2012, 01:14:50 AM
Will need to check exact dates, but the Czech Legion reached Ekaterinburg no more than a week later.

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on August 29, 2012, 08:12:58 AM
Another aspect of this that still doesn't add up is the height and maturity of the remains buried as GD Anastasia.

Yurovsky took over at the Ipatiev house less than two weeks before the murders and he describes the youngest GD as being 'small and plump' unlike her sisters who are described as 'tall'. This is good evidence that at the time of her death GD Anastasia was indeed still much shorter than her sisters especially GDs Tatiana and Maria and had not had a growth spurt like her brother. A height of 5'7 and the bone and teeth maturity of the body labelled as GD Anastasia is however consistent with the known age and height of GD Maria and indeed the American scientists did place GD Maria in the main grave.

Yurovsky's note specifically states that 'his' mix up was between the remains of the two mature female victims ( the Empress and her lady in waiting Anna Stepanova). This is the only major detail upon which the 'note' has been shown to be wrong. As previously stated Yurovsky has to have examined the remaining bodies in order to determine that the Empress had not been burnt with her son and that despite a gunshot wound to the head and damage suffered at the Four Brothers mine ( being submerged/ grenades thrown in ) the remains of the Empress were still recognisable to him. The remains of poor Anna Demidova did not have any gunshot wounds to the head or show any signs of post mortem grenade damage. Therefore Demidova's body would most likely have been easier to identify than her mistress's at this stage.

All the forensics seem to show that GD Anastasia was burnt with the Tsarevich not GD Maria, IMO. Due to her small size, of all the female victims, GD Anastasia's are the least likely set of remains to have been mistaken for the Empress or Anna Demidova, regardless of post mortem damage or changes even by persons who had not known the family and suite in life. GD Maria could however more plausibly have been mistaken in those conditions for her mother or Demidova but the only problem with that is the 'forensics' dont support it IMO.

It may appear ghoulish to pour over these gruesome details but this confusion has meant that the younger two GD's have not been afforded a correct burial and so in that sense there is still IMO opinion a point and purpose in trying to determine what happended in this regard.

This discrepancy and that of the Russian forensics team wanting to place GD Maria and not Anastasia in the second grave despite very compelling evidence to the contrary leads me to believe there may still be information that has yet to come to light.

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2012, 08:31:25 AM
This "conspiracy" theory thing again? The Russians have believed since day 1 that Maria was the "missing" one.  Bob Atchison went to Ekaterinburg and saw the skulls himself, literally, first hand.  Bob is a trained portrait painter, who studied under Chuck Close at Cornish, and he says that he instantly saw the skull shape was Anastasia and not Maria. 

To be blunt, it matters not one whit which GD was in the first grave and which in the second. Why? Because, we know for 100% certain that BOTH sets of remains found ARE one of the Grand Duchesses. Why in the world should it matter to you that "Anastasia" has not had a "proper burial" yet but "Maria" has, versus the other way around?  Ridiculous.

There is NO secret Russian "information" or mystery.  Bob has had first hand discussions with all of these players.  All one needs to know is that Alexei and one of his sisters have been found, and THEIR remains need to join the rest of their family as soon as possible. Period.

The rest of this, and I don't mean this as disrespectfully as it may sound, is mental diarrhea.  There is nothing to be gained from this discussion of "mixing up" bodies, etc. We have them ALL now, proven and accounted for. Period. Leave these poor souls to rest in peace.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on August 29, 2012, 08:45:05 AM
I agree.

For those who are religious, the dead are 'known unto God' whatever the name they may be buried under. But Alexei and the final Grand Duchess (whichever one she is) deserve a proper burial with the rest.

Our current discussion, interesting though it is, is academic.

My second priority (and this is entirely a personal one), is that there should be a proper memorial and commemoration service for those members of the household (Nagorny, Vassili Dolgoruky and others), who stayed with the Imperial Family and were killed separately from them. They died for their loyalty, and most, if not all, have unknown graves. Similarly, a memorial to Grand Duke Mikhail and Mr Johnson, whose remains have never been found.

Just a thought, could Bob (and perhaps others) explore the possibility of the APTF organising a memorial plaque at the Alexander Palace (in my view, an appropriate site)?

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on August 29, 2012, 10:09:22 AM
I have evidently being lacking in eloquence as a conspiracy theory is certainly not what I meant nor was I suggesting for one second that anyone is still missing, that is indeed ridiculous and simply not something I have asserted at any point -ever.

Its just Maples and the American scientists made very plausible arguments that in their official opinion after having thoroughly examined the remains, that those buried as GD Anastasia were too mature to be her. These are facts not something I've just pulled out of thin air, it just happens to conflict with your opinion.

You are a little too ready to dismiss someone of Maples stature in my opinion. Its seems that you have developed such a proprietorial attitude towards the last Tsar and his family '' we have them all now'' as opposed to just ''they are all accounted for'' that you seemingly feel that you have a monopoly on the truth in this regard. Word to the wise-you don't own them or their memory.





Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2012, 10:24:59 AM
We don't "own" them. You miss the point. YOUR DISCUSSION IS MOOT. POINTLESS and of no use. ALL GRAND DUCHESSES ARE ACCOUNTED FOR. Anastasia and Maria both. The world will NEVER EVER EVER know which bones belong to which girl. How DARE you take such a position. Have YOU spoken personally with both Maples and Avdonin? I doubt it. BOB ATCHISON HAS.  Have YOU discussed the testing results with Teri Melton? I have.

There is no legitimate reason to go on and on trying to decide something for YOURSELF that is both impossible and pointless.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on August 29, 2012, 10:28:38 AM
Vanya

I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I think we are generally agreed that there is a degree of conflicting evidence. Maria and Anastasia were close enough in age for there to be room for doubt over which was which on the basis of the teeth.

I do take Maples' train of logic seriously, though my entirely personal and gut feeling is that I would prefer the fourth Grand Duchess to be Maria. This is for the entirely unscientific and unhistoric reason is that by the time the results from the first grave were published I was utterly fed up with the Anna Anderson saga and AA's deluded supporters and would have preferred to have had any possible loose threads in relation to Anastasia's undoubted death in 1918 tied up.

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on August 29, 2012, 02:26:43 PM
Forum Admin -

While you may not agree with certain theories, we should not allow sentimentality to restrict exploring research and theories that may have some validity.  This site should be able to accommodate debate on such ideas without the need to say that another contributors views are "POINTLESS" - debate will get us closer to the truth, whereas replacing close argument with comments that do not explore the theory certainly do not.  Offensive, abusive or intentionally misleading content should rightly be tackled and removed where appropriate but otherwise a moderate and polite tone is essential - I certainly do not feel my comments were offensive or abusive and I would therefore have appreciated a more polite response.  I would have been happy to debate the content and validity of this and related research, which you name-dropped but did not use to make any specific point.

I am happy to explore ideas and I am certainly clear that there are weaknesses to the theory that I mention but running through the research, and debating the points of contention may well be useful, and certainly should be a process that can be conducted in a polite manner.  I have enjoyed exploring research and ideas, always with respect for the lives and suffering of the Imperial family, and it is unfortunate that the tone of your communications have led me to feel uncomfortable about entering into further discussion on this site.

Vanya
 
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 29, 2012, 02:37:01 PM
I apologize for my tone. You are correct it was not appropriate.  However, we have been following this for fifteen plus years now, and been involved in getting to the truth of it all. I have had to deal with a plethora of crazies, conspiracy theorists and dogmatic lunatics.

The point really is this: The world recognized forensic scientists have all come to the same, unanimous conclusion: It will be forever impossible to determine which set of bones was Anastasia and which was Maria, unless at some future time, somewhere, somehow a DNA sample from a conclusively known source identifiable to one or the other is found. then and only then, can it be determined with any certainty.

The rest is mere speculation and will lead nowhere, why? because the Forensic EXPERTS have all stated that due to the growth of both girls, it can never be said which was which without DNA.

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on August 30, 2012, 05:36:31 AM
I hope you stay, Thea.  I've found your insights interesting.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 30, 2012, 09:31:41 AM
The Report's exact words:

Taken together, all of the results and conclusions agree with the hypothesis that the samples recovered from grave two are the missing children of Tsar Nicholas II and Tsarina Alexandra. It should be mentioned that a well publicized debate [2] over which daughter, Maria (according to Russian experts) or Anastasia (according to US experts), has been recovered from the second grave cannot be settled based upon the DNA results reported here. In the absence of a DNA reference from each sister, we can only conclusively identify Alexei – the only son of Nicholas and Alexandra.

Coble MD, Loreille OM, Wadhams MJ, Edson SM, Maynard K, et al. (2009) Mystery Solved: The Identification of the Two Missing Romanov Children Using DNA Analysis. PLoS ONE 4(3): e4838. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0004838 Published March 2009.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on August 30, 2012, 09:49:44 AM
That sounds an eminently fair - and clear - summary. We can obviously discuss the way the different arguments operate, and likelihoods, but that is as far as we can go, and ultimately the important thing is that they are now all accounted for.

And known unto God (who will be quite able to cope with someone being buried under the wrong name). Doesn't Massie suggest that Nicholas's coffin actually contains some of Alexei Trupp's remains in addition to his own?

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 30, 2012, 12:39:33 PM
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Doesn't Massie suggest that Nicholas's coffin actually contains some of Alexei Trupp's remains in addition to his own?

Ann
  I have seen this statement before, but I haven't gone back to find its attribution.  I  have no difficulty accepting the potential of this at face value, since  we have already mentioned the undoubted co-mingling of the very smaller bones/fragments.  
  In the final analysis, I certainly accept the "all are accounted for" principle in regards to the individuals.      Regards,   AP.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on August 30, 2012, 12:46:17 PM
We know that at this stage most of those involved in the burial had not had contact with the victims when they were alive. However Yurovsky certainly had and his 'note' or notes, place him at the scene when two of the victims were separated for burning. As I stated the length of the hair would have been obvious to Yurovsky and so this mis identification between the two elder ladies and one of the GD's is not IMO very believable from him. My belief is that he wasn't there when this happended and was trying to cover up that fact.

Very, very interesting point about the hair. It wouln't be surprising if Yurovsky lied about the burial details in his notes. The two accounts he wrote offer very different details of what transpired on the 16-19 of July.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on August 30, 2012, 12:50:27 PM
Were any skulls recovered from the second grave?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on August 30, 2012, 12:54:39 PM
Material from the grave discovered in 2007.

Fragments from ten samples out of 44 were selected for DNA analysis: nine bone fragments (cranial, pelvic, scapular, or femoral) and one-half of the crown portion of a molar. It was determined that the tooth fragment would likely produce a DNA profile; however, we decided to preserve the material rather than destroy it during testing.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on August 30, 2012, 01:05:00 PM


All the forensics seem to show that GD Anastasia was burnt with the Tsarevich not GD Maria, IMO. Due to her small size, of all the female victims, GD Anastasia's are the least likely set of remains to have been mistaken for the Empress or Anna Demidova, regardless of post mortem damage or changes even by persons who had not known the family and suite in life. GD Maria could however more plausibly have been mistaken in those conditions for her mother or Demidova but the only problem with that is the 'forensics' dont support it IMO.



In his Note Yurovsky stated that he selected the two 'smallest bodies for burning.' If this is to be belived then we can come to the conclusion that it was Anastasia who was burned, if  Yurovsky's account of Anastasia's size is correct. Demidova and the Empress were fully grown women and tall at that point so it's highly unlikely that Yurovsky would label them as 'small'. The same could be said for Maria. Maples suggested that Anastasia was around 5ft 2 at the time of her death which would have made her the smallest in the Imperial Household after Alexei.

It's unfortunate that the scientists were unable to determine the height of the female found in 2007 due to the lack of skeletel material (and the absence of any leg and/or arm bones) as this could have been a more accurate factor in determining which Grand Duchess was in the grave.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ortipo on August 30, 2012, 01:50:15 PM
In his Note Yurovsky stated that he selected the two 'smallest bodies for burning.' ...

I'm not seeing a reference to Yurovsky selecting the two "smallest bodies for burning" at this source - http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/YurovskyNoteEnglish.html

What I am seeing is this:

 "...Exhausted. Without sleep. Began to get agitated: Any minute we expected the Czechoslovaks to seize Ekaterinburg. Had to find another way.
I decided to make use of the swamp. And burn some of the corpses. Unharnessed the horses. Unloaded the corpses. Opened the barrels. Placed one corpse to test how it would burn. The corpse charred relatively quickly, then I ordered to start burning Alexei. At this time [they were] digging a pit. The pit was dug in the swamp where the cross ties were layered. Dug a pit about 2 ˝ arshins deep, three arshins square. It was just before morning. Burning the rest of the corpses was not possible because again the peasants began to come out for work, and for that reason we had to bury the corpses in the pit. Laying the corpses in the pit, doused them with sulfuric acid, with this ended the funeral for Nikolai and his family and all the rest. Laid the cross ties on top. Leveled it. Drove over it. Firm. Near the spot where the corpses were burned, we dug a pit right there,  laid  the bones in there, lit the fire anew. And swept the traces..."

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ortipo on August 30, 2012, 01:53:14 PM
Were any skulls recovered from the second grave?

Yes - in the video I mentioned on page 11 of this thread.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: blessOTMA on August 30, 2012, 07:36:55 PM
Vanya

I cannot speak for anyone else here, but I think we are generally agreed that there is a degree of conflicting evidence. Maria and Anastasia were close enough in age for there to be room for doubt over which was which on the basis of the teeth.

I do take Maples' train of logic seriously, though my entirely personal and gut feeling is that I would prefer the fourth Grand Duchess to be Maria. This is for the entirely unscientific and unhistoric reason is that by the time the results from the first grave were published I was utterly fed up with the Anna Anderson saga and AA's deluded supporters and would have preferred to have had any possible loose threads in relation to Anastasia's undoubted death in 1918 tied up.

Ann

Ann that's  funny, a friend of mine  who  quite learned on these matters says that why the Russians always insisted it was Maria! : to shut up  Anna Anderson! lol
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on August 31, 2012, 06:09:00 AM
Were any skulls recovered from the second grave?

Yes - in the video I mentioned on page 11 of this thread.

Thanks for clarifying!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on August 31, 2012, 06:24:45 AM
In his Note Yurovsky stated that he selected the two 'smallest bodies for burning.' ...

I'm not seeing a reference to Yurovsky selecting the two "smallest bodies for burning" at this source - http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/YurovskyNoteEnglish.html



Sorry, my mistake. I'm certain I read somewhere that he decided to burn the two smallest bodies and I thought Yurovsky himself noted that down. I'll try to locate the reference.

It's interesting how he thought of burning all 11 of the corpses when combustion can actually protect a body from destruction. An experiment which was carried out on the 'Finding Anastasia' documentary showed that it was impossible to completely burn even two bodies in an open air fire. The bodies would have to burn for about 52 hours to become ash.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on August 31, 2012, 07:04:00 AM
'It's interesting how he thought of burning all 11 of the corpses when combustion can actually protect a body from destruction.'

But Yurovsky wasn't a scientist, and he was in a hurry, and quite possibly this was the first time he'd ever had much to do with dead bodies. He would know as a matter of common knowledge that bodies which are buried take a long time to decompose. He needed to destroy the bodies completely and make them unrecognisable. For a layman, burning makes an obvious possibility.

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 05, 2012, 12:36:56 AM
There were actually several "Yurovsky Notes" and some differ significantly from another. I will need to dig my info out but I believe someone's testimony mentions specifically burning the two smallest.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ortipo on September 05, 2012, 09:21:30 AM
The excerpt I posted came from the 1922 note.  The 1934 account reads (in part)

"...While we rode another plan took shape: burn the corpses. But nobody knew how to do it. Polushin seems to have said they already knew that because nobody really knew how it would come out. I was still considering the mines on the Moscow high road and then transportation. I decided to get carts. The plan came to me at the thought of failure in burying them in groups in different places...  A fire was made and while the graves where being prepared we burned two corpses: Alexei and Demidova. The pit was dug near the fire. The bones were buried, the land was leveled. A big fire was made again and all the traces were covered with ashes..."

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/yurovmurder.html
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on September 07, 2012, 11:52:53 AM
I found this quote from another area of the Forum. It is regarding the discoveries of the 2007 bones.

["I have been  told that this tells us that  the Russians are  indicating  the remains of the  female, Marie,  estimated height is 160 cm = 5 feet 2.5 inches  tall and that the male, Alexei,  estimated height  is  142-143 cm  or 143=  4 feet 6.9 inches  tall."


I know this heights were very roughly estimated, but if the Russians believed the female was 5ft 2 in life then I find it odd that they came to the conclusion that it was Maria and not Anastasia. It's well known that Maria was very tall, and the famous picture of the Grand Duchesses taken by Gibbes where they had their heads shaved, conclusively states that she was about as tall as Tatiana. Adding onto this, I find it equally ironic that the skeleton buried under Anastasia was around 5ft 7 - about the same height as Tatiana and Maria were in life.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on September 09, 2012, 03:03:32 PM
To judge from late photographs of Alexei (particularly the one sawing wood with Nicholas) he was a good deal taller than 4ft 7 when he was killed. I would estimate that he was about 5ft 4 then - still shorter than Nicholas but not very much. Some pictures taken at Stavka suggest he was about 5ft then (around a head shorter than his father).

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Sunny on September 10, 2012, 03:27:40 AM
To judge from late photographs of Alexei (particularly the one sawing wood with Nicholas) he was a good deal taller than 4ft 7 when he was killed. I would estimate that he was about 5ft 4 then - still shorter than Nicholas but not very much. Some pictures taken at Stavka suggest he was about 5ft then (around a head shorter than his father).

Ann

Ann is right, in tobolsk pics Aleksej seems almost as tall as Nicholas; maybe it was difficult (if not impossibile) to take the right height measurements, since his last attack of haemophilia left his leg weak and not perfectly straight, but he was undoublty tall for a boy of 14.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on September 10, 2012, 04:09:52 AM

Ann is right, in tobolsk pics Aleksej seems almost as tall as Nicholas; maybe it was difficult (if not impossibile) to take the right height measurements, since his last attack of haemophilia left his leg weak and not perfectly straight, but he was undoublty tall for a boy of 14.

Yes, Alexei took after Alix in his height.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on September 10, 2012, 04:57:12 AM
Not necessarily Alexandra. Nicholas was the shortish son of a very tall father, and had a very tall brother (Mikhail - I don't know about Georgy), as well as numerous other tall relations.

Height inheritance works in funny ways. My father is 5ft 6. My mother was 5ft 4 but came from a tall family on her mother's side. I am 5ft 6 and my brother just a whisker under 6ft. My cousins on my mother's side are all tall.

4ft 7 for a boy of almost 14 is distinctly on the short side, which Alexei clearly wasn't. The norm now is probably around 5ft (I am an Air Cadet instructor so deal with plenty of boys of that age!)

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on February 18, 2013, 11:22:41 AM
I think they should just get on with the burial now. I don't see why it has been delayed for seven years now. Given the fact that so few bones were found it wouldn't be economical to have a funeral on the same scale as the 1998 ones; however, even if they do it privately, the powers that be should just get on with it. At the end of the day not only is keeping someone's bones from being buried wrong, but in this case, keeping them locked away in a mortuary is serving no purpose.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 01, 2013, 12:03:07 AM
The grave that was excavated in 1991 did not have its remains buried until 1998, a wait of 7 years. It remains to be seen how long feet will be dragged over the remains found in 2007. As in life, these bones are not mere bones, and the second burial will probably be subject to political squabbles, too.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: History Nut on July 17, 2013, 07:45:53 PM
I hope that the Russian government and the Orthdox Church will see sense and allow Alexis and Maria to be reburied with their parents and siblings by July 17th, 2018. They have been separated for 95 years in death. It's time that the entire family be reunited and the last chapter closed on the events of that night.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ortipo on August 06, 2013, 05:48:29 PM
I stumbled across a video of Anastasia/Maria's remains being exhumed more than a year ago and finally found it again just now.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prEqimcLZSU
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Rodney_G. on August 06, 2013, 06:02:43 PM
This is notthe exhumation of Maria Nikolaievnas' remains , nor of any Romanov. Ignore it.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: AGRBear on April 25, 2014, 06:23:22 PM
I have no idea what the video is saying. Can anyone give us a hint?

And, the reason we know it's not Maria/ Anastasia (I still think it's Anastasia not Maria), who was found in this video is because  is this video shows a  skull  and there was no skull  found with Maria / Anastasia.l

AGRBear
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: HeatherMcH on January 07, 2015, 01:45:19 PM
Have the remains of Alexei and Maria/Anastasia been buried? 
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Rodney_G. on January 07, 2015, 02:44:44 PM
No. We're into the eighth year of this charade about the identity of and/or the resultant proper burial of these remains, about which there is no credible scientific dispute. The handling of this issue by Russian authorities, both official and religious, makes the American bureaucracy, for example, seem positively efficient by comparison. And that takes some doing.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 19, 2015, 03:55:33 AM
Head of the Russian State Archive suggests to exhume remains of the tzar family to examine them again
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=dujour&div=144

Moscow, March 18, Interfax - All doubts about authenticity of Emperor Nicholas II's family relics should be eliminated, director of the Russian State Archive Sergey Mironenko believes.

"We have to listen to church officials and exhume the relics buried in Sts Peter and Paul Cathedral and to do it in presence of church representatives and then it should be sealed up by church seals, and the Church should say whom of experts it confides in," Mironenko said on air The Eternity and Time program at the Spas TV channel.

As to disclosed relics of Nicholas II's children Alexey and Maria, the archive director says he "is categorically against burying the relics without participation of the Russian Orthodox Church."

He also promised to publish in the Internet all the materials referring to the case on disclosure of tzar relics. "The Russian State Archive has its own website and there we will post all the documents discovered during the research," Mironenko said.

Head of the Synodal Department for Church and Society Relations Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin on air the program said that the relics of the tzar family in Sts Peter and Paul Cathedral are covered with plates, which can be easily removed, though "it is always bad to disturb the remains." According to him, their burial was forced.

"I remember rather tough pressure from Mr. Nemtsov and his office, but we won't say any bad things about recently killed person," the priest said.

The House of Romanov admits the possibility of exhuming tzar family remains in order to stop discussions about their authenticity.

"If the state considers it necessary, the Russian Imperial House won't stand against further research on the question," the House advocate German Lukianov told Interfax on Wednesday.

A grave with nine bodies was found on Staraya Koptyakovskaya Road near Yekaterinburg in July 1991. The remains were identified as those of Emperor Nicholas II, his 46-year-old wife Alexandra Fyodorovna, their daughters Olga, 22, Tatyana, 21, and Anastasia, 17, and their servants Yevgeny Botkin, 53, Anna Demidova, 40, Aloizy Trupp, 62, and Ivan Kharitonov, 48.

The remains of two more people were discovered during archaeological excavation works 70 kilometers south of the first grave on July 26, 2007. The remains have still not been buried, but numerous expert analyses indicate that the remains were most likely those of Crown Prince Alexey and his sister Maria.

The Investigative Committee said in January 2011 that it had completed an investigation into the death of Nicholas II, his family members and entourage and closed the criminal case.

The Russian Orthodox Church has still not recognized the remains interred in Peter and Paul Cathedral as those of Nicholas II and his family members and entourage, claiming that it was not convinced by the proof of their authenticity that was presented.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Превед on March 20, 2015, 03:07:11 PM
"I remember rather tough pressure from Mr. Nemtsov and his office, but we won't say any bad things about recently killed person," the priest said.

God, what a low blow, to use an anti-establishment martyr's death to discredit the process he was supervising.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on March 20, 2015, 05:16:07 PM
Quote
The Russian Orthodox Church has still not recognized the remains interred in Peter and Paul Cathedral as those of Nicholas II and his family members and entourage

DNA confirmed the identities of the Imperial Family two decades ago.  There is no margin for error, regardless of what the ROC thinks.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Inok Nikolai on April 17, 2015, 04:13:50 PM
Whatever the reasons for the Russian Orthodox Church not wishing to recognize the Imperial remains, there is absolutely no need whatsoever to exhume the bodies buried in the SS. Peter and Paul Cathedral.

The official investigators and the forensic specialists have made it clear on several occasions that they were permitted to retain small portions of each persons remains in order to conduct further research as scientific advances occur.

They have already done this in 2007 when G. D. Maria and Tsarevich Alexis' remains were finally found. At that time they re-examined the DNA of the original remains... and came up with even more conclusive results.

The DNA of the non-royals in the pit have also been matched to their living relatives or descendants. What more is needed?!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Sanochka on May 23, 2015, 11:07:21 PM
Whatever the reasons for the Russian Orthodox Church not wishing to recognize the Imperial remains, there is absolutely no need whatsoever to exhume the bodies buried in the SS. Peter and Paul Cathedral.

The official investigators and the forensic specialists have made it clear on several occasions that they were permitted to retain small portions of each persons remains in order to conduct further research as scientific advances occur.

They have already done this in 2007 when G. D. Maria and Tsarevich Alexis' remains were finally found. At that time they re-examined the DNA of the original remains... and came up with even more conclusive results.

The DNA of the non-royals in the pit have also been matched to their living relatives or descendants. What more is needed?!

The answer's clear.  Load the doubters into a time machine and send them back to that awful night in Yekaterinburg and let them see for themselves what happened, and who was buried where.  Perhaps then they just might believe the scientific conclusions.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on May 27, 2015, 04:43:30 PM
The saddest thing about all this is that three of the girls may be buried under the wrong name. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal but I have two sisters myself and I would be mortified if I was buried under their names by accident. It also seemed like the process of  identifications descended into a battle of who was right as opposed to which girl it actually might be. I'm still convinced that Anastasia was missing from the 1991 grave since the Americans' methods of identifications seemed a lot more accurate.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on May 27, 2015, 05:35:53 PM
Quote
Load the doubters into a time machine and send them back to that awful night in Yekaterinburg and let them see for themselves what happened

That might be the only way to convince them.  I mean there are STILL people out there who think Anastasia survived. 
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Romafan96 on May 27, 2015, 05:37:44 PM
Flat earth believers can think what they like, but fact remains there is little, if any, evidence to support their beliefs. Life is not a fairytale unfortunately and terrible things do happen to undeserving people. The Romanovs were no exception.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on May 27, 2015, 05:46:06 PM
Quote
Flat earth believers can think what they like

Yeah, I know.  Anastasia's ghost could materialize in front of them and give a first hand account, and said flat earthers still wouldn't believe.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Georgiy on May 29, 2015, 01:16:32 AM
You could send them back in a time machine and they still wouldn't believe.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Inok Nikolai on July 11, 2015, 11:18:53 AM
"Russian Government Seeks to Identify and Bury the Children of the Last Tsar"

A new government commission has been appointed to resolve this issue.

Hope they succeed this time!

http://tinyurl.com/qjf5g97
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: stacey on July 17, 2015, 02:23:31 AM
I know most Russian experts believed the "missing daughter" (whose fragmentary remains have since been discovered, along with Alexei's) was Grand Duchess Maria. However, English and American geneticists and other scientists who examined the remains state that the "missing" daughter was Anastasia, not Maria. Based on the evidence I've read--and no, I'm no expert--I think the missing daughter was Anastasia. (My opinion, BTW, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm American. I just felt that the Anglo-American team had better evidence to support their conclusion that it was Anastasia who was missing.)

In the end I guess it really doesn't matter. Even if Alexei and Anastasia were found separately from the rest of their family, the sad fact remains that not a single member of Nicholas II's immediate family (his wife and children) survived. They all died--were murdered, more accurately--together in that wretched basement in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg, Russia, along with several devoted servants. Tonight marks the 97th anniversary of those bloody and heartless executions. Hard to believe it all happened so long ago--it breaks my heart knowing that those five beautiful children never got the chance to live out their lives. May they rest in peace.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: edubs31 on July 17, 2015, 12:48:51 PM
I know most Russian experts believed the "missing daughter" (whose fragmentary remains have since been discovered, along with Alexei's) was Grand Duchess Maria. However, English and American geneticists and other scientists who examined the remains state that the "missing" daughter was Anastasia, not Maria. Based on the evidence I've read--and no, I'm no expert--I think the missing daughter was Anastasia. (My opinion, BTW, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that I'm American. I just felt that the Anglo-American team had better evidence to support their conclusion that it was Anastasia who was missing.)

In the end I guess it really doesn't matter. Even if Alexei and Anastasia were found separately from the rest of their family, the sad fact remains that not a single member of Nicholas II's immediate family (his wife and children) survived. They all died--were murdered, more accurately--together in that wretched basement in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg, Russia, along with several devoted servants. Tonight marks the 97th anniversary of those bloody and heartless executions. Hard to believe it all happened so long ago--it breaks my heart knowing that those five beautiful children never got the chance to live out their lives. May they rest in peace.

If you believe in conspiracy theories than I feel like the Russian government had more to gain from convincing the world that the missing daughter was Maria - and thereby help to dispel those nagging and persistent rumors of Anastasia's escape - than the Anglo/American team did for convincing people it was Anastasia.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on February 13, 2016, 03:59:47 AM
It's great having closure after nearly 100 years.  Took them long enough!
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 24, 2016, 06:29:53 PM
It has been scientifically proven many times that 4 daughters and 1 son of Nicholas and Alexandra's were found outside Yekaterinburg, giving mute evidence to confirm the claim of the City's Bolsheviks. I am of the opinion that we will never know for certain which younger daughter was buried with Alexei. We do know that only one of the 4 daughters was a hemophilia carrier.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Lochlanach on April 09, 2016, 12:21:10 PM
It's great having closure after nearly 100 years.  Took them long enough!

You know it . I know it .The Russian Orthodox Church don't consider the matter closed - far from it - and many ROC followers go along with that . The ROC need to publically concede that all the IF remains are accounted for and were buried in Pigs Meadow , not Yanina Gama, and bury all the remains together in St Petersburg.  Someday this saga is going to end . It's about time.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Royal Bloodline Descent on May 21, 2016, 01:18:18 PM
Just watched the program on C5 in the UK. well that wrap sit up at last. All members accounted for and ow only to bury the last two with the rest of their family.

DNA shows remains children of Tsar and thus Alexis and Anastasia (or Maria).

Finally.


Even though the results were some time ago and in reply to your comments  ( DNA shows shows remains children of the Tsar and thus Alexis and Anastasia (or Maria) . it was Anastasia  and not Marie as DNA examination showed three of the the daughters shared the sane DNA of their mother, Anastasia did not but shared  the DNA of her brother Alexei and their father Nicholas 11 .  Photo proof is posted and can be seen on Royal Bloodline Descent    on face book


Royal Bloodline Descent     On Facebook
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: DNAgenie on May 21, 2016, 06:17:25 PM
Interesting new paper just published about genes for face shape. See http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0516/190516-nose-shape for details. Nothing there about ears as they have already been studied and ear-shape is a lot more complex.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on May 21, 2016, 06:33:18 PM
Just watched the program on C5 in the UK. well that wrap sit up at last. All members accounted for and ow only to bury the last two with the rest of their family.

DNA shows remains children of Tsar and thus Alexis and Anastasia (or Maria).

Finally.


Even though the results were some time ago and in reply to your comments  ( DNA shows shows remains children of the Tsar and thus Alexis and Anastasia (or Maria) . it was Anastasia  and not Marie as DNA examination showed three of the the daughters shared the sane DNA of their mother, Anastasia did not but shared  the DNA of her brother Alexei and their father Nicholas 11 .  Photo proof is posted and can be seen on Royal Bloodline Descent    on face book


Royal Bloodline Descent     On Facebook

HOGWASH! I have spoken twice with Dr. Teri Melton who was one of the DNA scientists who did the original and subsequent DNA testings. Anastasia matched her siblings AND Mother, including the mtDNA of Queen Victoria descent.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Royal Bloodline Descent on May 21, 2016, 07:40:49 PM
First I would thank you for your comment of Hogwash which I assume in English would mean not true. The Specialist you mentioned Teri Milton would you kindly show his/her words to contradict what Royal Bloodline Descent has mentioned and proven by providing photo pictures and been suggested as fake photos .

Always nice to hear from you even though we have different opinions on the matter at hand. I assume you have not yet found time to look at our posted photo facts but always appreciated your comments right or wrong

Regards

RBD on facebook
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: DNAgenie on May 21, 2016, 07:57:33 PM
No, it's not true.  You appear to be getting confused by the controversy about whether the skeletal fragments in the latest grave were those of Maria or Anastasia. It does not matter either way, as they were both confirmed to be sisters to the other three children, and the children of a male and a female skeleton found in the first grave, identified as the Tsar and the Tsararina. The fact that all children are accounted for among the skeletal material is far more important from a scientific point of view than the identification of Maria and Anastasia at a personal level. That may be important in a religious context, but it does not invalidate the scientific findings from the DNA evidence.

DNA tells the truth. It is a very powerful modern forensic and genetic tool, and it is not easily refuted. It is more important than the shape of one's ears.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Royal Bloodline Descent on May 21, 2016, 08:37:24 PM
Officially yes the story is closed but in actual fact the story is ongoing and proven so far by photo facts that show Royal Bloodline Descent has posted the inherited DNA markers of Nicholas 11 and two of his children so inherited are on RBD web page on facebook.

As to any confusion mentioned Royal Bloodline Descent are not experts in DNA only experts in photo facts of the royal inherited earlobe markers, but our experts in DNA are respected geneticist who advise to inherit the said earlobe markers one Must share the same DNA ancestor.  As to Maria or Anastasia , Marie did not show the  DNA visible markers from birth as did her Brother Alexei. but Anastasia did.  We would appreciate if you feel you can provide us and any other member who may be following the subject matter with the written report of Dr Terri Milton.

With Respect


RBD
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: DNAgenie on May 21, 2016, 09:21:42 PM
Quote
As to any confusion mentioned Royal Bloodline Descent are not experts in DNA only experts in photo facts of the royal inherited earlobe markers, but our experts in DNA are respected geneticist who advise to inherit the said earlobe markers one Must share the same DNA ancestor.  As to Maria or Anastasia , Marie did not show the  DNA visible markers from birth as did her Brother Alexei. but Anastasia did.  We would appreciate if you feel you can provide us and any other member who may be following the subject matter with the written report of Dr Terri Milton.

If your "experts" say that 'to inherit the said earlobe markers one Must share the same DNA ancestor', they are not experts. That is wrong. Very wrong.  Totally misleading. Rubbish. Hogwash.

As for your statement that 'Marie did not show the  DNA visible markers from birth as did her Brother Alexei. but Anastasia did.' What do you infer from that?  That Maria and Anastasia were not sisters?  That is wrong too.

The original papers, that were no doubt referred to by Dr Teri Milton, are available through these links:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0004838#pone-0004838-g003 .
http://www.pnas.org/content/106/13/5258.abstract

I have tried to explain the rudiments of DNA to you, but if you will not listen to reason (and scientific facts) there is no more to be said.

This is a scientific and historic reference site and your statements are misleading, unhistorical and unscientific.


Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Royal Bloodline Descent on May 22, 2016, 01:27:15 AM
It is not of interst to discuss further this subject matter with you as one cannot communicate with the other person who uses words such as Total misleading . Rubbish and Hogwash.

As to your second paragraph (Quote )  As for statement that Maria did not show the DNA markers from birth as did her brother Alexi, but Anastasia did. what did you infer from that? That Marie and Anastasia were not sisters? That is wrong too.  We are not sure how you came to that misunderstanding but that is your opinion not ours

RBD will conclude by saying we have a mutual respect for the Romanov murdered family and we have provided photo proof of fact and one can accept or reject the other parties opinion  in the matter of what RBD has presented so far  comments provided are what they are. Thank you for your opinion on these matters our communication is now concluded.

 Regards

 
Royal Bloodline Descent      on Facebooki
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Kalafrana on May 22, 2016, 04:52:53 AM
The various sets of remains were identified as members of the same family via mDNA, which passes unchanged down the female line. This method of identification had to be used because only bones and teeth had survived.  The Duke of Edinburgh, whose maternal grandmother was Alexandra's sister, provided an mDNA match for Alexandra and all five children. The only way in which Maria could have had different mDNA from Alexei and Anastasia is if she had a different mother.

Ann
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on May 22, 2016, 11:05:26 AM
I understand DNA far more than "rudiments".  I suggest you study English with more interest than DNA. Your claim that one daughter did not share some ludicrous "earlobe" marker as yet "UNKNOWN" and UNPROVEN is HOGWASH. There is no respect for utter speculation without scientific background. Take your spurious claims to the unintelligent. Learn to write proper English. Your grammar and vocabulary are out of Google Translate.

"Proper Grammar is the difference between "knowing your shit" and "knowing you're shit". 

I know which side you and your theories are on.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Royal Bloodline Descent on May 22, 2016, 01:55:54 PM
Childish manners and crude remarks are are not expected from intelligent persons but you know the answer to that statement.  We are not sure what you mean by saying I know what side your theories are on?  We would be interested to know your meaning .

Royal Bloodline Descent function is to bring forth facts that so far have been proven real and untouched photographs.  We face reality but we do not understand your outbursts  and negativity might it be you have accepted our information as true?.  RBD function is to present what is fact and not fiction but there are those who will deny anything that does not go by the way another may see a situation , we are open to other people views right or wrong  and as you can tell it is very hard for RBD to falsify photos found on various web sights including the well respected Alexander Palace.

Regards


Royal Bloodline Descent  on Facebook
I understand DNA far more than "rudiments".  I suggest you study English with more interest than DNA. Your claim that one daughter did not share some ludicrous "earlobe" marker as yet "UNKNOWN" and UNPROVEN is HOGWASH. There is no respect for utter speculation without scientific background. Take your spurious claims to the unintelligent. Learn to write proper English. Your grammar and vocabulary are out of Google Translate.

"Proper Grammar is the difference between "knowing your shit" and "knowing you're shit". 

I know which side you and your theories are on.

Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: DNAgenie on May 22, 2016, 06:36:48 PM
Quote
Royal Bloodline Descent function is to bring forth facts that so far have been proven real and untouched photographs.  We face reality but we do not understand your outbursts  and negativity might it be you have accepted our information as true?.  RBD function is to present what is fact and not fiction but there are those who will deny anything that does not go by the way another may see a situation , we are open to other people views right or wrong  and as you can tell it is very hard for RBD to falsify photos found on various web sights including the well respected Alexander Palace.
We are not denying the facts of the photographs, but you are drawing the wrong conclusions from those facts. A mutation in a parent need NOT be handed down to all the children. There is a genetic reason for this which you seem to have misunderstood.

An example is the haemophilia that Alexei suffered from.  This disease is the result of a rare mutation which was carried in his mother, Alexandra.  But she DID NOT have the disease.  She had two copies of the gene, and only one had the mutation and could cause the disease. Each of her children had a 50 percent probability that they would inherit the mutation. That mutation is carried on the X chromosome. IF the child was a boy and IF he inherited the mutated gene, he would get the disease.  So Alexei did. IF the child was a girl and inherited the mutation she would NOT inherit the disease but she would be a carrier for it. Like her mother Alexandra who had one good copy and one mutated copy.

Analysis of the DNA from the skeletal remains showed that Alexandra did indeed have one good copy of the gene for haemophilia and one mutated copy. Alexei had the mutated copy only. He was a boy so he had only one X chromosome, the other was his Y chromosome which made him male. One of the daughters, either Maria or Anastasia, also had one good copy and one mutated copy of the haemophilia gene so she would have been a carrier like her mother. The other daughters did not carry the mutation - they just had two good copies so would not have been carriers and could not pass it on.

I have used this as an example of why a rare trait that is known to be inherited need not pass to all the descendants. Some of them might inherit the rare trait. It is unlikely that they all will, and as we go down the generations it becomes less and less likely.  It could apply just as well to the ear shape you keep going on about. There is NO SUCH THING as a permanent genetic marker in a rare trait that will mark out a family for ever.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Forum Admin on May 22, 2016, 07:23:00 PM
Childish manners and crude remarks are are not expected from intelligent persons but you know the answer to that statement.  We are not sure what you mean by saying I know what side your theories are on?  We would be interested to know your meaning .

Royal Bloodline Descent function is to bring forth facts that so far have been proven real and untouched photographs.  We face reality but we do not understand your outbursts  and negativity might it be you have accepted our information as true?.  RBD function is to present what is fact and not fiction but there are those who will deny anything that does not go by the way another may see a situation , we are open to other people views right or wrong  and as you can tell it is very hard for RBD to falsify photos found on various web sights including the well respected Alexander Palace.

Regards


Royal Bloodline Descent  on Facebook
I understand DNA far more than "rudiments".  I suggest you study English with more interest than DNA. Your claim that one daughter did not share some ludicrous "earlobe" marker as yet "UNKNOWN" and UNPROVEN is HOGWASH. There is no respect for utter speculation without scientific background. Take your spurious claims to the unintelligent. Learn to write proper English. Your grammar and vocabulary are out of Google Translate.

"Proper Grammar is the difference between "knowing your shit" and "knowing you're shit". 

I know which side you and your theories are on.

Except you do not bring "facts" you bring unsupported speculation.  The fact you don't understand what I wrote underscores my statement that you need to learn proper English.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Royal Bloodline Descent on May 23, 2016, 01:53:17 PM
Quote
Royal Bloodline Descent function is to bring forth facts that so far have been proven real and untouched photographs.  We face reality but we do not understand your outbursts  and negativity might it be you have accepted our information as true?.  RBD function is to present what is fact and not fiction but there are those who will deny anything that does not go by the way another may see a situation , we are open to other people views right or wrong  and as you can tell it is very hard for RBD to falsify photos found on various web sights including the well respected Alexander Palace.
We are not denying the facts of the photographs, but you are drawing the wrong conclusions from those facts. A mutation in a parent need NOT be handed down to all the children. There is a genetic reason for this which you seem to have misunderstood.

An example is the hemophilia that Alexei suffered from.  This disease is the result of a rare mutation which was carried in his mother, Alexandra.  But she DID NOT have the disease.  She had two copies of the gene, and only one had the mutation and could cause the disease. Each of her children had a 50 percent probability that they would inherit the mutation. That mutation is carried on the X chromosome. IF the child was a boy and IF he inherited the mutated gene, he would get the disease.  So Alexei did. IF the child was a girl and inherited the mutation she would NOT inherit the disease but she would be a carrier for it. Like her mother Alexandra who had one good copy and one mutated copy.

Analysis of the DNA from the skeletal remains showed that Alexandra did indeed have one good copy of the gene for hemophilia and one mutated copy. Alexei had the mutated copy only. He was a boy so he had only one X chromosome, the other was his Y chromosome which made him male. One of the daughters, either Maria or Anastasia, also had one good copy and one mutated copy of the hemophilia gene so she would have been a carrier like her mother. The other daughters did not carry the mutation - they just had two good copies so would not have been carriers and could not pass it on.

I have used this as an example of why a rare trait that is known to be inherited need not pass to all the descendants. Some of them might inherit the rare trait. It is unlikely that they all will, and as we go down the generations it becomes less and less likely.  It could apply just as well to the ear shape you keep going on about. There is NO SUCH THING as a permanent genetic marker in a rare trait that will mark out a family for ever.



You mention We are not denying the facts of the photographs, that is a step in the right direction. Might (We) be a individual or a scientific qualified biologist, geneticists?.

In your  information you mentioned You have used an example of why a rare trait that is known to be inherited need not pass to all the descendants. Some might inherit the rare trait. It is unlikely that they will ,as we go down the generations it becomes less and less likely. Yo also mention There is NO Such THING as a permanent genetic marker in a rare trait that will mark out a family for ever.

You are correct on one matter,  Why a rare trait that is known to be inherited need not pass to all decedents, This writer on behalf of Royal Bloodline Descent  is an example of what you say, I inherited the identical visible marker from birth as did my child and grand child.  From my sister's side she did not inherit what we are speaking of.  I am aware my German Great Grandfather inherited the same visible trait a hundred and some years past, he as I understand was of German nobility  to where he or his family may have inherited this trait from the same ancestor who passed it on to some royals past and present.  Whatever the case may be that is the facts of what we are discussing.  Such inheritance of the same trait is clearly showing up on a few related royals today as the photographs posted show.

Regards


RBD on facebook
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Inok Nikolai on June 06, 2016, 03:57:14 PM
Quote
The Russian Orthodox Church has still not recognized the remains interred in Peter and Paul Cathedral as those of Nicholas II and his family members and entourage

DNA confirmed the identities of the Imperial Family two decades ago.  There is no margin for error, regardless of what the ROC thinks.

A bit tardy again, but this is the film which I had meant to cite earlier, but I could not find it at the time. I just came across is again in my computer.

It’s from a television program broadcast in 2011. The dialogue is in Russian, but there is a lot of interesting footage.

Perhaps it can still be viewed on line somewhere:
Professija-reporter.(2011.02.12).Zhizn'.za.carja.avi


At 20:23 it shows the Vladimir Soloviev (the chief Russian investigator into the murder of the Imperial family) and the reporter at the gates of the Moscow Patriarchate’s Ganina Yama complex. Despite having received permission in advance, the reporter and camera crew were denied entrance.
What is more astonishing is that the guards also refused to let V. Soloviev himself enter the premises — even after he showed them his credentials from the federal government. They told him to take it up with Archbishop Vikenty of Ekaterinburg!

At that point the reporter comments that it seems that the Church is not separated from the State, but the State from the Church.

***************

A related item:

Paul Kulikovsky, in his "Romanov News" No. 98, May 2016, posted this:

The Tsarevich Alexei and Grand Duchess Maria burial-case continues
DNA test shows match between remains of Nicholas II and Alexander III, and Alexander II

29 May - According to Peter Saradinaki, the DNA studies recently made on Emperor Alexander II and Alexander III MATCHED those of Nicholas II, whose
remains were found on the Koptayakovsky Road and were buried in St. Peter and Paul Cathedral in 1998.
It is also said that all the relics of Emperor Nicholas II, his family and Faithful servants were removed from the Peter and Paul Fortress' St. Catherine Chapel for further "anthropological studies".
This means the Russian Orthodox Church is now in possession of all the Ekaterinburg relics and that in turn must mean they are soon ready to announce their acceptance of them as the Imperial Family.

*************

So, stay tuned...!


Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Royal Bloodline Descent on June 06, 2016, 05:05:17 PM
Quote
The Russian Orthodox Church has still not recognized the remains interred in Peter and Paul Cathedral as those of Nicholas II and his family members and entourage

DNA confirmed the identities of the Imperial Family two decades ago.  There is no margin for error, regardless of what the ROC thinks.


How true look at the proof posted June 2016 proof is in the pictures posted on Royal Bloodline Decent on Facebook
Professija-reporter.(2011.02.12).Zhizn'.za.carja.avi


At 20:23 it shows the Vladimir Soloviev (the chief Russian investigator into the murder of the Imperial family) and the reporter at the gates of the Moscow Patriarchate’s Ganina Yama complex. Despite having received permission in advance, the reporter and camera crew were denied entrance.
What is more astonishing is that the guards also refused to let V. Soloviev himself enter the premises — even after he showed them his credentials from the federal government. They told him to take it up with Archbishop Vikenty of Ekaterinburg!

At that point the reporter comments that it seems that the Church is not separated from the State, but the State from the Church.

***************

A related item:

Paul Kulikovsky, in his "Romanov News" No. 98, May 2016, posted this:

The Tsarevich Alexei and Grand Duchess Maria burial-case continues
DNA test shows match between remains of Nicholas II and Alexander III, and Alexander II

29 May - According to Peter Saradinaki, the DNA studies recently made on Emperor Alexander II and Alexander III MATCHED those of Nicholas II, whose
remains were found on the Koptayakovsky Road and were buried in St. Peter and Paul Cathedral in 1998.
It is also said that all the relics of Emperor Nicholas II, his family and Faithful servants were removed from the Peter and Paul Fortress' St. Catherine Chapel for further "anthropological studies".
This means the Russian Orthodox Church is now in possession of all the Ekaterinburg relics and that in turn must mean they are soon ready to announce their acceptance of them as the Imperial Family.

*************

So, stay tuned...!



Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: TimM on June 07, 2016, 07:28:07 AM
RBD, why did you quote the previous post without adding anything yourself?
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Inok Nikolai on June 07, 2016, 08:49:35 AM
RBD, why did you quote the previous post without adding anything yourself?

Well, he did add one line, sandwiched between two line of the original posting:

"How true look at the proof posted June 2016 proof is in the pictures posted on Royal Bloodline Decent on Facebook"

But what it refers to is not clear.


Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Royal Bloodline Descent on June 08, 2016, 02:24:42 PM
If you have questions on what Royal Bloodline Descent has posted and how the information provided puts Nicholas 11 and his inherited  DNA earlobe markers together with other royals who inherited the same, please ask.

Royal Bloodline Descent     on Facebook


Email address is royal.bloodline.descent@gmail.com
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 13, 2016, 06:50:50 PM
Forgive me for reviving this thread, and forgive me for asking such a morbid question, but have any photos of Maria and Aleksey's remains ever been released? It's almost been 10 years now, but I don't remember ever having seen any.
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: Lochlanach on August 14, 2016, 08:55:15 AM
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog?topic_id=1069628

at bottom of page
Title: Re: The Remains Identified as Alexei and Maria. Story Closed.
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 15, 2017, 10:57:48 PM
Please note that the link above will take you to 2017 updates on plans to bury the remains of the Tsesarevich and his sister