Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Annie on December 07, 2004, 09:03:12 AM

Title: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on December 07, 2004, 09:03:12 AM
Did any of you see the Richard Gere/Jodie Foster movie "Sommersby"? It was about a man who had been missing in the US Civil War returning home to his wife and kid. (it was based on a French story, I think there was a French movie, too)

Anyway, he came home and his wife welcomed him. But the guy she'd been dating thinking her husband was dead did not believe it was really him- the dog didn't remember him, his shoes were the wrong size, and other things that made him suspicious. It turned out he wasn't really the husband, but a guy pretending to be him to get the wife and the farm. The wife, who had not gotten along with her real husband, welcomed and accepted this handsome stranger.

As it turned out, her real husband had been wanted for murder, and the law caught up with him, put him on trial and wanted him hanged. But those who knew he was really faking told him, all you have to do is prove you are not really Sommersby and you can go free. But his life before he "became" Sommersby had been sad and miserable, and he was thought of as a loser among those who knew him. As "Sommersby" he was loved, by the wife, and the neighbors and friends he helped. So he decided to die as Sommersby and leave a good memory rather than admit he was lying and was the other guy with an embarrassing past.

Okay now the AA connection. I have said that I believe in time AA believed she was AN, but in the beginning she probably didn't, she was trying to become her because she didn't want to be FS. Even FS's family was quoted as saying they 'left her to what she wanted, to be Anastasia." So they didn't want to spoil it for her, or take responsibility for her. FS had a miserable life and no future, but  as Anastasia, even a fake one, she was loved by supporters, always given a place to stay by someone, she had fame and attention and adoration, so she left FS in the past and assumed this more popular persona. In time, her age and mental problems compounded and she really believed herself to be AN (IMO)

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: jolie on December 08, 2004, 02:37:28 PM
Bingo, Annie!

Now I've got to go rent the movie "Sommersby"!
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Denise on December 08, 2004, 02:59:21 PM
Annie, I have always felt that this scenario was what was behind AA's story.  However, I have never put it into words as well as you have here.  The Sommersby analogy is a great one (and a good movie, too!  ;) ).

Denise
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: rskkiya on December 08, 2004, 03:19:48 PM
   The question is did the gentleman who pretended to be Sommersby actually realize that he was not him--but simply played along?
  In my opinion Anna A was unable to deal with her own personal traumas and had so disassociated from her "self" that she tried unconciously to become a completely different person...someone with an equally tragic past!



rskkiya
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on December 08, 2004, 04:29:06 PM
Thanks Jolie and Denise:)

Rsskiya- I am sure the guy in the movie knew he was not really Sommersby. I'm not sure when the wife knew it wasn't really her husband.

I think that AA started out really pretending, but did end up believing and feeling she was AN. I'm not sure at what point it happened though.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on December 08, 2004, 06:22:32 PM
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Also,

Has anyone thought more about how similar the Tchaikowsky/Schankowsky families were? Both "Scions of the old polish nobility"....and the names themselves are very similar...as if AA may have been telling people who she really was the whole time...

If, for fun, you play around with "Felix Schankowsky" and compare it to "Alex Tchaikowsky"...drop the "F" in felix you get "Elix Schankowsky" Put the  "E" in place of the "I" add an "A" to the beginning, drop the "N" in "Schankowsky" change the "SC" at the beginning to "TC" (of course, my spelling may be off) and...there!...you have "Alex(ander) Tchaikowsky"

Does anyone else remember the other names of the Tchaikowsky family?  Not scientific, I know, but what does everyone else think?  


Interesting theory, could be. I was guessing she made up the name "Alexander Tchiakovsky" because Alexander was a very famous common Russian name, and Tchiakovsky was a famous Russian composer (She may have not even known he was of Polish descent, only reaching quickly for a Russian sounding name when asked, just my guess, yours is just as good!) I believe the brother of her ficticious rescuer was "Sergei"
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Georgiy on December 08, 2004, 06:52:34 PM
An interesting theory, but, in the end as the languages are written in different alphabets, not a very likely one, at least not as far as substituting letters is concerned. Substituting sounds however, the names don't sound too dissimilar.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 08, 2004, 07:15:26 PM
I just want to add that "Sommesby" was actually based on a French book and  film called "The Return of Martin Guerre", try to rent that one too, it is subtitled (I think)...  :D
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 08, 2004, 07:18:05 PM
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Thanks Jolie and Denise:)

Rsskiya- I am sure the guy in the movie knew he was not really Sommersby. I'm not sure when the wife knew it wasn't really her husband.

In the movie, the wife knew that he was not really her husband, but she convinced herself that she didn't know - so as not to feel guilty, because she so much wanted him to be... She liked this new guy a lot better than her husband  ;)
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on December 08, 2004, 07:26:34 PM
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I just want to add that "Sommesby" was actually based on a French book and  film called "The Return of Martin Guierre", try to rent that one too, it is subtitled (I think)...  :D


I had heard that, I put it in my original post, but I didn't know the name. Thanks. Was it supposed to be a true story?
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 08, 2004, 08:37:42 PM
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I had heard that, I put it in my original post, but I didn't know the name. Thanks. Was it supposed to be a true story?


I think it was supposed to be based on a true story that took place in the medieval times (if I remember correctly)
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Dashkova on December 08, 2004, 08:57:25 PM
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I think it was supposed to be based on a true story that took place in the medieval times (if I remember correctly)



Yes, based on the true (but somewhat embroidered) Martin Guerre story, from which came a movie and a book. Oddly enough the movie came first followed by the book (Natalie Zemon Davis). It does have English subtitles.

The Sommersby version is sort of the same story, but set in the American Civil War and was filmed in Charlotte County, Virginia in the early 90s.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 08, 2004, 08:59:50 PM
Yep, The Return of Martin Guerre... Do you know when Martin Guerre lived?
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Dashkova on December 08, 2004, 09:03:42 PM
16th century France, village of Artigat, below the foothills of the Pyrenees.  The imposter was Arnaud du Tihl; the clever young woman in the story was Martin's wife, Bertrande.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 08, 2004, 09:13:02 PM
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16th century France, village of Artigat, below the foothills of the Pyrenees.  The imposter was Arnaud du Tihl; the clever young woman in the story was Martin's wife, Bertrande.


Thanks. That's what I thought, that it was some time in the 1500's. This imposter business goes way back!  ;)

I saw the original French version a long while ago, I remember it was really good, better than the Jody Foster version. I wonder if they have it for rent in the video stores....
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Dashkova on December 08, 2004, 09:34:02 PM
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Thanks. That's what I thought, that it was some time in the 1500's. This imposter business goes way back!  ;)

I saw the original French version a long while ago, I remember it was really good, better than the Jody Foster version. I wonder if they have it for rent in the video stores....


Maybe, in some of the larger chains, or the more specialized video stores.  Most college and university libraries have it, too.  I'm pretty sure it can still be bought online.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on December 09, 2004, 12:55:12 PM
Thanks everyone! I didn't know the story was that old!
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Martyn on December 17, 2004, 04:31:15 PM
That is an interesting analogy, the Sommersby/Martin Guerre theory.  
What was so terrible about FS' life?  Is much known about the rest of her family?
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: rskkiya on January 14, 2005, 09:44:58 AM
If we agree tha Anna Anderson was Fransiska S ...
Well, I have read that her fiance was killed in the war and she was in a dreadful accident in a munitions factory (hence her scars ) involving a hand grenade --supposedly she saw her foreman blown up before her eyes.
She was lost, lonely and deeply traumatized... with little to eat in Berlin her choice (to try to commit suicide) was quite understandable, although it may have been more of "a cry for help" than a detailed plan.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on January 14, 2005, 06:23:03 PM
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If we agree tha Anna Anderson was Fransiska S ...
Well I have read that her fiance was killed in the war and she was in a dreadful accident in a munitions factory (hence her scars ) involving a hand grenade --supposedly she saw her foreman blown up before her eyes.
She was lost, lonely and deeply traumatized... with little to eat in Berlin her choice (to try to commit suicide) was quite understandable, although it may have been more of "a cry for help" than a detailed plan.


Well, that is the story we've always heard and believed, though there are now those who tell a totally different story. I would be interested to know the evidence of anything refuting this, still waiting.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 16, 2005, 12:49:49 PM
In any case, whoever AA was, she did get to be financially supported for many years by the nobility and some Romanov family members (and from what I understand even Sergei Rachmaninoff!), to go to parties thrown in honor of the "Grand Duchess" and generally be the 'toast' of the NYC society and basically a celebrity! Sure beats being anyone else  ;). She was not AN, but whether she was FS or not I doubt that she would have had any of these experiences if it weren't for her claims to be AN...
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 16, 2005, 02:05:44 PM
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 Is much known about the rest of her family?
 I read that her family and others who knew her as a young woman used to think that FS was always kind of strange, she read a lot of history books and was interested in royalty and was always wanting to be a famous actress or just someone famous. That she didn't like living in a small town and she always wanted "something more" for herself. I don't know if this is all true or not, but I read this about her...
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Dashkova on January 16, 2005, 05:27:58 PM
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 I read that her family and others who knew her as a young woman used to think that FS was always kind of strange, she read a lot of history books and was interested in royalty and was always wanting to be a famous actress or just someone famous. That she didn't like living in a small town and she always wanted "something more" for herself. I don't know if this is all true or not, but I read this about her...


Yes, R.Massie wrote quite a bit of detail about FS and her ideas of grandeur.  Might be true, but from what I have heard and read from other sources, FS's family would and if any are left, *still*, spout whatever spin they thought would benefit them most (financially or otherwise).
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on January 16, 2005, 06:49:05 PM
One of her relatives once said that she didn't want to be buried in a one horse town, she wanted to die a famous actress. I think she got her wish ;)
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 16, 2005, 07:18:37 PM
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 FS's family would and if any are left, *still*, spout whatever spin they thought would benefit them most (financially or otherwise).


Did FS's family get paid for providing their information? By whom? What other benefits did they get?
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on January 16, 2005, 07:40:10 PM
I really don't know.

Also a lot of the letters people have posted between members of the family show to me that it's pretty darn obvious it was a matter of fact among them that she was their sister. That's another reason I firmly believe AA was FS.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: sparrow on January 25, 2005, 07:11:56 PM
if only we could get a hold of the evidence from the police who took her in, and then the asylum where she stayed,  then the ear analayis etc.  wiser we would be.  i like to read all the different ideas.  it does not change my belief  but it does help me to see others opinions  more clearly.  i am seeking harriets book on Anna.  any ideas?  the real  from the court trials   all that would be wonderful to shift through   huh?
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Olga on January 26, 2005, 04:44:56 AM
Sparrow, is English your second language?
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: sparrow on January 26, 2005, 08:36:52 AM
lol  i  suppose it would look that way.  i am mostly a lazy typer.   how much can we fake?  when illness takes a hold of us?   when fever rages?  when death knocks loud and clear.   then our desire to confess, to make amends, to clear our consience, becomes vital.  it requires something beyond genius, to fake a idenity, under those circumstances.  it is possible, yes.  likely,no.
Anna was anastasia till the very end, was Sommersby?  
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Olga on January 26, 2005, 09:59:19 AM
I see that it is not. Would it be too much to ask of you to use proper syntax/punctuation/grammar in your posts? Reading garbled letters gets hard on the eyes and annoying on the brain.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Mgmstl on January 26, 2005, 10:44:09 AM
Annie, an interesting theory, and I think a plausible one. However you have to take into consideration that the family itself thought she was dead from 1920 on until the reporter broke a the story in 1926 or 1927 at Penny stated.  Also that none of the family signed an affadavit stating she was FS.  I had to reread Peter Kurths book in order to keep this straight.  You have to consider the families motives in this also. Both the Shanzkowskas (sp), and the Romanovs/Hesse.

You could also turn this around and say that this is the reason the IF never embraced her, as her health was too unstable with TB, asylums, treatment. etc.  

If you can get the Return of Martin Guerre, on dvd or video with Gerard Depardieu, it is a better version of the story, however Sommersby is good.

While the DNA evidence leans towards FS, and I agree
that it does, my mind is open to other possibilities.  
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 26, 2005, 11:21:56 AM
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how much can we fake?  when illness takes a hold of us?   when fever rages?  when death knocks loud and clear.   then our desire to confess, to make amends, to clear our consience, becomes vital.  it requires something beyond genius, to fake a idenity, under those circumstances.  it is possible, yes.  likely,no.
 
Sparrow, this is a general answer, not particularly pertaining to AA, but could conceivably apply.

The human brain is a very peculiar thing that we don't know a lot about. What we do know, is that there is such a thing as mental illness, which sometimes manifests itself in delusions. Delusions can be very strong in people who have them, and very common delusions seem to persistenly involve taking on the identity of famous people, particularly royalty, for some reason. This is nothing new, it has been seen in Russia and all over the world for hundreds if not thousands of years. I can give examples if you like, just ask. Mental institutions used to be full of patients who imagined themselves to be Cleopatra, Napoleon, etc., this was very common and had nothing to do with the fact that these people couldn't have possibly been alive at the time. Delusions don't follow any logical process, yet to the person who has them they make perfect sense. This kind of thing is less common now due to various psychotropic drugs that are available to these patients.

BTW, these drugs are very effective and helpful for people who are mentally ill, including delusionals. But this was not the case even as recently as 50 years ago, so you used to come across this type of thing a lot more often.

In any case, what I am trying to say is that these people are not living a lie, they are not faking in identity, they are not geniuses. These people for the most part truly believe that they are who they say they are. This is why, even when gravely ill, or hallucinating, or whatever, they will still persist in their identity.

So the answer to your question is, sparrow, yes, if someone goes untreated for their mental illness (i.e. delusions), chances are they will live out the rest of their lives under their delusions, which with time will continue getting even stronger. They will never really come around on their own and will continue insisting about their delusional identity. I hope this answered your inquiry and may provide some food for thought for you.  :D
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on January 26, 2005, 11:31:16 AM
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Anna was anastasia till the very end, was Sommersby?  



Of course, that's the entire point of the movie, that he would rather die as the person he was pretending to be than live as himself!

Did you read my post in the other thread about her not being regal, quite the opposite?
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: sparrow on January 26, 2005, 12:03:33 PM
 thank you for your information.  however a liar has to have a better memory.    in peter kurths book{13 years in the writing}  Anna anderson, then known as fraulein unbekannt, was decribed by both doctors and nurses in the dalldorf asyslum, as amiable,cultivated, well educated,gracious,charming,meticulious, clean,good behavior,cultured,from good circles, aristocratic,overbearing.  this before she began her attempt at being someone else?  before her lies had even began she could be described as she was.  at this time she had not yet began her charade.  Mental illness was still supposed to be running rampant in her head.  how can we consentrate on both the reinventing and the mental illness.  preparation?  did sommersby prepare before hand the gestures,spoken word, education, of the husband?  or was the woman just so desperate to have back what she missed, she would take anything. even a man who did not resemble what was gone.  i guess, i am just so darn questioning on the whole thing.  i have never tried to reinvent myself.  i do not know the extent one might go to, during a breakdown.    
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Ortino on January 26, 2005, 12:24:14 PM
While I do agree that most likely she did eventually believe herself to be Anastasia because she wanted it to be so, and even with physical evidence and/or testimonies, that doesn't really explain her extensive knowledge about people, places, and things. I doubt she could have picked up most of those details from books, even if she was an avid reader during her youth. I'm almost positive that the personal lives of the IF were not discussed in books. Was it luck? I don't know how much a person could possibly guess and still sound convincing. I'm not an AA fan, but it is this aspect of her playing AN that puzzles me the most.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 26, 2005, 12:25:01 PM
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... a liar has to have a better memory.  
   I don't understand what you mean, sparrow  ???
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 26, 2005, 12:29:28 PM
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While I do agree that most likely she did eventually believe herself to be Anastasia because she wanted it to be so, and even with physical evidence and/or testimonies, that doesn't really explain her extensive knowledge about people, places, and things. I doubt she could have picked up most of those details from books, even if she was an avid reader during her youth. I'm almost positive that the personal lives of the IF were not discussed in books. Was it luck? I don't know how much a person could possibly guess and still convincing. I'm not an AA fan, but it is this aspect of her playing AN that puzzles me the most.


I wasn't specifically talking about the AA case, just about delusional people who take on someone else's identity in general. I have no idea how AA knew the information nor will I even attempt to speculate at this point because it would be sort of pointless. But along the same lines, apparently there are testimonies that show that AA also got quite a few things wrong, like the story about her finger and the carriage door, told in Olga Alexandrovna's biography.
In any case, I was just trying to respond to sparrow's questions, as well as convey to sparrow the benefits of medication (in many such cases)...    ;)
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on January 26, 2005, 01:03:16 PM
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While I do agree that most likely she did eventually believe herself to be Anastasia because she wanted it to be so, and even with physical evidence and/or testimonies, that doesn't really explain her extensive knowledge about people, places, and things. I doubt she could have picked up most of those details from books, even if she was an avid reader during her youth. I'm almost positive that the personal lives of the IF were not discussed in books. Was it luck? I don't know how much a person could possibly guess and still sound convincing. I'm not an AA fan, but it is this aspect of her playing AN that puzzles me the most.


It doesn't puzzle me, it's obvious someone told her, either on purpose or incidently in conversation. Don't forget she had contact with a lot of Russian emigres' who would have known those things, and even so she got things wrong, such as the finger incident. As Olga said, someone must have told her the story that Anastasia had hurt her hand on a carriage door and she used that to explain the scar on her hand, when in reality it was  Marie and a train door! So she got partial info from people who had known the IF and used it to form her 'memories.' Back when I was a supporter, I used to be fascinated by her memories too, but as I read and learned more, like that she had met and talked with so many Russians who had fled the revolution. I saw through it that it was so easy for someone to have fed her info or relayed stories to her innocently, such as "oh Anastasia don't you remember the time..." "wasn't your mother's purple couch lovely? I loved how it matched the cherry wood.." (not specifics just examples I came up with)

As far as other testimonies and evidence, well, for every one you could name, I could list two from the opposite side, so that means nothing either. And don't forget the big one, the DNA didn't match.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Lanie on January 26, 2005, 01:47:03 PM
Don't forget all the memoirs of people who knew them were published in the early-mid twenties...Dehn, Gilliard, Vyrubova, etc.  So AA could have easily gotten her hands on those.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: sparrow on January 26, 2005, 01:59:56 PM
 " a liar must have a better memory"  this is to say that we often tell lies.  speaking even from experience.  but we often forget the lies we have told and then the following lies do not add up.  our lies become apparent.  we can not keep up.  the truth might vary somewhat but generally remains mostly the same.    lies do not.     did the supporters of her believe her, just for the sake of not looking bad?   i am rereading all the material i have access to just to get a clearer picture of that,  then i will look in to the issue of the sommersby mental illness to see what happens even during fever etc. she was coherant even if she was depressed in Dalldorf.  just for the record i believe her.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Abby on January 26, 2005, 02:05:48 PM
It is hard for me to remember everyone that AA had contact with from my readings, but she did meet a lot of people who knew the IF who would probably be able to relay some information to her. However, I don't think people like Olga Alexandrovna and the nursemaid "Shura" would have done this, since they were more than likely testing her knowledge other than feeding it to her. But I can't think of who specifically, besides Gleb, would have provided her with the information that formed her 'memories'. And when did they begin to tell her all of these things? Wouldn't someone at the hospitals notice AA reading up on books about the IF, or speaking to people who were in upper-class circles of Russian society who would've known these specific things (like the Tsar's pipe, the description of the rooms in the Alexander Palace, the details of Anastasia and Maria's hospital and the gifts they gave the wounded soldiers).

I am not advocating AA, just asking based on my own curiousity. I don't think people who would've known these specifics would have told them to AA. So I don't know how she got her information.  ???
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Elisabeth on January 26, 2005, 02:09:51 PM
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" a liar must have a better memory"  this is to say that we often tell lies.  speaking even from experience.  but we often forget the lies we have told and then the following lies do not add up.  our lies become apparent.  we can not keep up.  the truth might vary somewhat but generally remains mostly the same.    lies do not.      


One of the most suspicious things about Anna Anderson was the way her basic story kept "evolving" in order to match emerging facts or new theories. So, for example, when Summers and Mangold came out in the 1970s with their new theory that the empress and ALL of her daughters had survived Ekaterinburg, Anna Anderson told them, "There was no massacre there.. but I cannot tell the rest." Well, how very convenient! And note how this statement baldly contradicts everything we now know to be a fact about the Romanov murders - i.e., there was indeed a massacre.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: AGRBear on January 26, 2005, 02:36:10 PM
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One of the most suspicious things about Anna Anderson was the way her basic story kept "evolving" in order to match emerging facts or new theories. So, for example, when Summers and Mangold came out in the 1970s with their new theory that the empress and ALL of her daughters had survived Ekaterinburg, Anna Anderson told them, "There was no massacre there.. but I cannot tell the rest." Well, how very convenient! And note how this statement baldly contradicts everything we now know to be a fact about the Romanov murders - i.e., there was indeed a massacre.


We know that it's probable that Nicholas II and the others were executed in the basement of the Impatiev House, however, there is an investigator who wrote in his report that he didn't think an execution of the IF occured in the basement, and, this, too, is possible.

Next we have nine bodies in a mass grave.  No doubt about this fact.

We know approximately when the bodies were placed in the grave but that is all.

There is evidence that the grave was distrubed a number of times, and,  some of the skulls were removed and replaced....

Contamination and a quick removable to a lab doesn't help the scientists to reconstruct what did or did not happen from 17 July 1918 to the removeal.

As for AA,  for all I know she could have been  a Soviet agent who was placed into the asylum as a claimant in hopes she might discover secrets which the Soviet had failed to discover their usual way.  Or, AA could have been FS or some distant cousin of FS who took advantage of the situation and played the part to her best ability.  

Then, again, if AA was Anastasia,  what a shame she was never reconized.

As for mental illness,  I don't think the Romanovs or the Brits were short on genes which caused the same symtoms AA held.

In her old age, it appears,  she believed she was GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 26, 2005, 02:45:49 PM
Quote

One of the most suspicious things about Anna Anderson was the way her basic story kept "evolving" in order to match emerging facts or new theories. So, for example, when Summers and Mangold came out in the 1970s with their new theory that the empress and ALL of her daughters had survived Ekaterinburg, Anna Anderson told them, "There was no massacre there.. but I cannot tell the rest." Well, how very convenient! And note how this statement baldly contradicts everything we now know to be a fact about the Romanov murders - i.e., there was indeed a massacre.


I may be wrong, but I think that later on this, and other statements like this, were explained by the notion that AA was only kidding.  ???
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Elisabeth on January 26, 2005, 02:49:12 PM
Quote

We know that it's probable that Nicholas II and the others were executed in the basement of the Impatiev House, however, there is an investigator who wrote in his report that he didn't think an execution of the IF occured in the basement, and, this, too, is possible.  Afterall, all the wittnesses  were claiming to have been the murderers.

Next we have nine bodies in a mass grave.  No doubt about this fact.


Nine bodies would seem to constitute a massacre, Bear.

Quote
We know approximately when the bodies were placed in the grave but that is all.


That's quite a bit, given what a coincidence it would otherwise be: a massacre on the morning of July 17, 1918, forensic evidence for a burial on the same day, and even more evidence of a second burial of the victims on the morning of July 19, 1918 (not only skeletal remains but witness statements).

Quote
There is evidence that the grave was distrubed a number of times, and,  some of the skulls were removed and replaced....


Quite a bit later, Bear - some 60 years.

Quote
Contamination and a quick removable to a lab doesn't help the scientists to reconstruct what did or did not happen from 17 July 1918 to the removeal.


I'm no scientist, but I think that assumption is wrong... contamination should actually tell us quite a bit - about where the bodies were, for how long, and under what conditions, just to give a few obvious examples. And the forensic evidence ties in very neatly with the witness statements. No elbow room here.

Quote
As for AA,  for all I know she could have been  a Soviet agent who was placed into the asylum as a claimant in hopes she might discover secrets which the Soviet had failed to discover their usual way.  Or, AA could have been FS or some distant cousin of FS who took advantage of the situation and played the part to her best ability.  

AGRBear


If Anna Anderson had been a Soviet agent, I'm sure we would know by now, since there are dozens of Western historians squirreling through the KGB archives even as we speak... AA was clearly FS, and FS the original - very talented - creator of her own immortal legend.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 26, 2005, 03:05:09 PM
Quote


Contamination...doesn't help the scientists to reconstruct what did or did not happen from 17 July 1918 to the removeal.

 
 Forensic scientists know what to do about contamination, after all, how often do they get remains in pristine condition? In the case of the Yekaterinburg remains, in order to ensure that the samples they used to extract the DNA from were not contaminated, the scientists made sure that they came from inside the bone (the outer layers were shaved off), which is standard practice for something like this. In any case, if they still ended up getting contamination, it would have been pretty obvious right away in the results. This was not the first such case and not the last these people were dealing with...  
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 26, 2005, 03:08:50 PM
Quote

As for AA,  for all I know she could have been  a Soviet agent who was placed into the asylum as a claimant in hopes she might discover secrets which the Soviet had failed to discover their usual way.  
 For God's sakes, please say you are kidding!
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: sparrow on January 26, 2005, 04:10:02 PM
inventing herself to be someone before she even knew who it was to be?  evolving? perhapts,  but i doubt it
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Mgmstl on January 26, 2005, 04:17:55 PM
If AA was a soviet spy, then why did she fear capture by the soviets after WW II.   I just don't think this is correct.
AA was definitely good at what she did, I will say that,whoever she is or was.  She had a lot of people fooled who considered themselves intelligent.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: sparrow on January 26, 2005, 08:10:13 PM
This theory on sommersby and Anna, together, make for one crazy lady.  Or so  this theory would have us believe.  Does not say much for the doctors and nurses in the Institution she visited for two years.  I suppose no-one there had the training to spot this type of mental illness.  Or the ability to treat it.  It was just called depression then, i suppose.   Here is another theory that could cause a problem.  A severe blow to the head, watching others, especially those you love,  murdered, imprisonment with guards who wanted to use you, and having to reinvent yourself to not be a GD.  This  could also cause one to be crazy. But when admitted they did not refer to her as crazy, depressed, afraid, terrified of the Russian, yes.  But not crazy. Sommersby, at first, wanted what looked like a better life.  A woman who needed him, a home, and food in an empty belly.  this all made sense to him after the hardship of the civil war.    what did Anna endure.  Years and years of hatred, death threats, and a court case that would not admit her back into the world she had once known.  not denied, not accepted.  limbo.   why not re reinvent the self then?  "i fear i have lived too long" this is how she felt at the end.  
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Georgiy on January 26, 2005, 08:42:06 PM
But no amount of mental trauma and anguish will change your DNA. Whoever AA was, she was not Anastasia.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: AGRBear on January 26, 2005, 09:38:07 PM
Quote
..... [ AGRBear has added numbers]
(1) Nine bodies would seem to constitute a massacre, Bear.


(2) That's quite a bit, given what a coincidence it would otherwise be: a massacre on the morning of July 17, 1918, forensic evidence for a burial on the same day, and even more evidence of a second burial of the victims on the morning of July 19, 1918 (not only skeletal remains but witness statements).


(3) Quite a bit later, Bear - some 60 years.


(4) I'm no scientist, but I think that assumption is wrong... contamination should actually tell us quite a bit - about where the bodies were, for how long, and under what conditions, just to give a few obvious examples. And the forensic evidence ties in very neatly with the witness statements. No elbow room here.


(5) If Anna Anderson had been a Soviet agent, I'm sure we would know by now, since there are dozens of Western historians squirreling through the KGB archives even as we speak... AA was clearly FS, and FS the original - very talented - creator of her own immortal legend.



Elisabeth: (1) Nine bodies would seem to constitute a massacre, Bear.
AGRBear:  Where did I say nine bodies wouldn't constitute a massacre?


Ellisabeth: (2) That's quite a bit, given what a coincidence it would otherwise be: a massacre on the morning of July 17, 1918, forensic evidence for a burial on the same day, and even more evidence of a second burial of the victims on the morning of July 19, 1918 (not only skeletal remains but witness statements).
AGRBear:  My speculation is,  there was no execution of the eleven in the Impatiev House on the night of 16/ 17 Jul 1918.  I've given evidence of other wittnesses other than the CHEKA, who claimed to have seen some of the family alive in Perm.  I talked about the trains being searched.  I've talked about some of the investigators who thought,  no execution took place in the house that night....  It is obvious that nine were hunted down, executed and placed at some time, on or after the 17th of July 1918 and  before 1921-2 in the grave in Pig's Meadow... because there are nine bodies in the grave.  But not as many bones as there should be...   The second and real execution could have been at the mine or in the Meadow itself.  When?  Later that day,   the next day or as late as 1921/2....

Elisabeth: (4) I'm no scientist, but I think that assumption is wrong... contamination should actually tell us quite a bit - about where the bodies were, for how long, and under what conditions, just to give a few obvious examples. And the forensic evidence ties in very neatly with the witness statements. No elbow room here.
AGRBear:  I don't know anything about comtamination of blood to change the DNA results,  my thoughts were on the grave itself.  From what I  gain through various data,  the grave was probably entered about 1928, 1946,  1979 (twice), 1980, 1991...  Dates of the laying of the cable varies (1972or  1977 or 1990)...  

Elisabeth: (5) If Anna Anderson had been a Soviet agent, I'm sure we would know by now, since there are dozens of Western historians squirreling through the KGB archives even as we speak... AA was clearly FS, and FS the original - very talented - creator of her own immortal legend.
AGRBear:  You're probably right abaout the spy angle, however, AA is not clearly FS,  the DNA can't tell us this as a fact, we know she was related to Karl Mauser [Gertrude S's grandson].  DNA works best when we are eliminating people, it can not tell us who a person is  [I think that's right... ], therefore, AA probably wasn't GD Anastasia unless their was tampering of the evidence which no one has found to this point in time....

Quote
If AA was a soviet spy, then why did she fear capture by the soviets after WW II.   I just don't think this is correct.
AA was definitely good at what she did, I will say that,whoever she is or was.  She had a lot of people fooled who considered themselves intelligent.


Maybe her  fear of being capture by the Soveits was an act, too???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 28, 2006, 07:03:41 PM
This is going to sound somewhat strange, but I was just thinking about how similar these two cases are, even though this is not immediately obvious.

Both individuals are "pretenders", who claim to be something they are not: Karr claims to be the killer of JonBenet Ramsey, while Anna Anderson claimed to be a grand duchess. Both possessed some compelling characteristics and gave compelling reasons which caused at least some people to believe them or take them seriously.
 
Like Anna Anderson, Karr was not the first or only "pretender", there have been several others who confessed to being the killer, but their evidence was not as strong as Karr's, hence none of them got arrested for the crime like he did. Anna Anderson too had other competition, but she was the most compelling contender, who is now even mentioned in history books, and in whom some people still have faith.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/annakarr.jpg)

Like Anderson, Karr evidently had some "inside" information which made the Boulder DA and others believe that he could be telling the truth: at least enough to arrest and extradite him from abroad - and even to hold a international press conference. Anna Anderson had some "inside information" which turned many people into her staunch supporters (even to this day).

At the same time, both Karr and Anderson also got quite a few things wrong in their respective "stories", which made many other people not believe them, even before the DNA results sealed the deal.

Both individuals are emotionally disturbed, although in different ways. Like Anna Anderson, Karr received a lot of publicity, attention and fame because of his claim, in fact you can say both became instant celebrities.

And finally, Anna A was proven not to be who she said she was with DNA. And now Karr's case has been significantly deflated because of DNA mismatch, which probably means that he may not be prosecuted for the crime no matter how much he insists he commited it and no matter how many inside details he has or how much he fits the profile. Of course some other things will be taken into consideration, as it was in the AA case, but ultimately, it is the DNA. If Karr's DNA matched, everyone would have accepted he was JonBenet's killer. If AA's DNA matched, everyone would have accepted she was the grand duchess.

Of course the logistics of these two cases are different, but it does come down to the same thing: no matter how compelling the "inside" information is, or other things, it will probably come down to the science... 

Just a few thoughts on what I found to be an interesting example of how analogous these two seemingly different cases really are.... 

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Bev on August 28, 2006, 08:10:22 PM
Imagine having a life so terrible that you'd like to be anyone else, even a murderer.   

And to think my Websleuths' forum which I've been posting on for years is too "busy" tonight to get into! 
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 28, 2006, 08:43:16 PM
Imagine having a life so terrible that you'd like to be anyone else, even a murderer.   




Yes, just like "Sommersby" who'd rather die as another person than live as himself! :P

Helen, this is a brilliant comparison. It only shows just how pathetic people can be when they get obsessed with pretending to be something they're not. I'm sure he convinced himself he did it, like AA convinced herself she was AN. But, just as there was no 'real killer' in the OJ case, there was no other suspect as to who AA was, because she was FS. DNA proved it, just as DNA proved  this Karr guy didn't kill JonBenet. He was only using it to get fame. What a sick mind :-[

But wait, maybe it was switched.... :o :o But by who? Let's consider...the father wouldn't want him to get off, because he is likely guilty, so who would switch it? Any conspiracy theories? ;)

I have to admit, I laughed my butt off when I saw the side by side pics, just like in so many AA threads! :D :D
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 08:59:10 AM
I'm sure he convinced himself he did it, like AA convinced herself she was AN.

I used to think this was the case too, but I am not so sure anymore. I think both knew that they were not who they said they were, at least on some level they knew that they were lying. For example, Anna Anderson used to delibrately try to hide her face whenever someone who was close to Anastasia would come to see her. And the example in the "Dar'ling" letter also speaks volumes.

In Karr's case, even before the DNA results came out, he knew it wouldn't match (hence he knew he didn't do it). He even said: "the DNA may not match, but you shouldn't always trust the science". Sound familiar?  ;)

Having said that, just because someone is not so out of touch with reality that they know what they are doing, it doesn't mean that they are not mentally ill. That goes for both, Karr and Anderson...
 
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 29, 2006, 09:59:04 AM
I don't think AA believed she was AN in the early days when she was hiding her face. She knew exactly what she was doing, and I beileve most of her closest supporters did too. I'm not totally convinced she came to believe she was AA but if it happened, I think it happened in her old age as her mind slipped even further away. Like Johnny Weismuller went off his rocker and believed he was actually the character he played, (Tarzan) in his old age. There were sad reports of him running down the streets of Beverly Hills making the famous Tarzan call and the police had to be called to corral him. She may have finally come to think she was AN after many years of lying and fabricating, and living in fear of being exposed. She did, as her niece said, always want to die a famous actress. And so she did!

As for Karr, he was never all that convincing, the way he said "no" when asked if he was innocent. He also claimed it was an accident, leaving the door open for a second degree conviction instead of life or death. I'm really not sure what to make of him, but I did suspect he was lying from the start. I know people who say he was paid off by Ramsey to take the rap and clear his wife's memory, and cover himself. It's a very odd case.

Does anybody remember the case of Dr. Jeffrey McDonald, who was accused of murdering his pregnant wife and two young kids in the 70's? He claimed a 'hippie' and a girl in a floppy hat ran into his house, did it and ran out the back door. He was convicted and eventually died in prison of natural causes, never giving up his story. At some point, I heard a story of a woman in an insane asylum in NC who claimed to be the woman in the floppy hat, but like Karr, she turned out to be an attention seeking fake, maybe obsessed with the case and wanting fame from it.

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 10:27:14 AM
Perhaps given some time - and enough "followers", Karr would also have convinced himself that he actually was the killer.... Unfortunately for him, DNA testing already exists and it only took a week or so to prove he was a "pretender", unlike in AA's case where DNA testing wasn't available until after her death. If only DNA tests were discovered earlier, AA would never have had the chance to get as far as she did - with her ears and her feet and her handwriting and other such rubbish. Come to think of it, maybe she would have?  ;)

"As for Karr, he was never all that convincing, the way he said "no" when asked if he was innocent. He also claimed it was an accident, leaving the door open for a second degree conviction instead of life or death. "

Yes, but he did convince the DA that he may have done it. They don't arrest someone too casually, so obviously there was something there that convinced them to take him seriously... After all, there were other "confessions" in this case, but no arrests....

One more parallel I forgot to mention between the two cases is the handwriting analysis. A handwriting expert looked at Karr's writing, compared it to the ransom note and declared that it had to be the same person who wrote the note. Sound familiar? Well, once again, so much for the "science" of handwriting analysis....

Too bad they don't have an ear print of the real murderer to compare to JMK's...   :o


Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 29, 2006, 10:45:55 AM


One more parallel I forgot to mention between the two cases is the handwriting analysis. A handwriting expert looked at Karr's writing, compared it to the ransom note and declared that it had to be the same person who wrote the note. Sound familiar? Well, once again, so much for the "science" of handwriting analysis....

Yes, it sure does. Not very accurate, huh? Just like the shoes, dresses, feet, ears ::) They had also said before the handwriting matched Patsy Ramsey's. Now it's him? Tommorrow it might be somebody else. Might as well toss out that 'source'.

It is too bad there wasn't DNA in AA's trial time, we could have been spared all the nonsense, and even if there had been conspiracy theorists they probably would have died out by now. I wonder if she'd have even pushed her claim so far if there had've been DNA testing, and what would she have said to know the results?


Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Tania+ on August 29, 2006, 11:16:44 AM
Had the press not taken this to the end of sensationalism, and everyone addressed the facts of what they had, and allowed all to go without alerting the press, this all could have been avoided. Again the poor family is taken through a tragedy of mammoth porportions. [Remember, they also were accused of being involved in their own daughter's murder].

Sensationalism certainly lives in those who are looking to gossip and continue stories to the peak of whipping up the public to a frenzy. It goes without saying that it is again showing itself on these threads. Ugly enough of whom the suspect John M Karr stands for and of all his evil thoughts, etc., imho, i don't think we need to continue this where children are concerned, and many school age children are reading these threads.

This man is obviously mentally unbalanced, and a child predator who needs to be kept incarcerated. Certainly not to find a parallel with Anna Anderson. I think you both may be reaching a bit too far in this case. Since DNA was not found, they have found there is no case, and I think it should be the end of making parallel of someone whose story has no cooberation.

I think this thread has no barring at all nor similarities on Anna Andersons case...Anna Anderson was not a child predator, nor was she ever a danger to society, or under the eye of the law as John M Karr is and should be. There must be more relevant subject matters of real address the forum members could and should get their teeth into that has to do with the AP Forum's relevant subject matters. John M Karr is far from the subject matter, period, imho.

Tatiana+

Tatiana+

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 29, 2006, 11:40:03 AM
God he is ugly!

Anyway, it's JonBenet Ramseys mother I felt sorry for, at least she is at peace now. 
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 11:58:28 AM
I don't know if the rumors of JMK's plans for sex change operation have been confirmed or not, but if this is indeed true, it is also very interesting. It's as if he is trying to wipe out his entire identity, "erase" the person he was and become someone else completely. Just as Franciszka Schankowska tried to do when she became Anna Anderson. Yet another parallel between the two cases...

This would be such an interesting case study, a psychological study of the two cases, comparison and contrast between them. If I were a grad student in psych, I would want to do something like this for my thesis. 


Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Tania+ on August 29, 2006, 12:00:35 PM
Hello to you Eddieboy_uk,

Yes, I felt sorry for both the mother and father, and their son. It has become such a nightmare, that i have heard the father has decided to move to europe, because of all the issues the press has brought about. I think they could have handled it all much better than they had. It is and has been quite distressing inmho, and I'm not even a member of the family. But, I can see how much pain this can bring to parent's of a child who has been murdered. Nice to see you posting Eddie :). Take care.

Tatiana+
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 29, 2006, 12:01:05 PM



I think this thread has no barring at all nor similarities on Anna Andersons case...Anna Anderson was not a child predator, nor was she ever a danger to society, or under the eye of the law as John M Karr is and should be. There must be more relevant subject matters of real address the forum members could and should get their teeth into that has to do with the AP Forum's relevant subject matters. John M Karr is far from the subject matter, period, imho.
Tatiana+

Tatiana+



I TOTALLY expected a post like this, but assumed it would be bear who posted it. My apologies to bear. There IS a parallel here, both Karr and AA/FS were mentally unbalanced people who pretended to be something they weren't- she a Grand Duchess, he a famous killer. The biggest connection here is that he was proven not to be what he said he was by DNA, just like AA, and that the handwriting analysis turned out to be wrong and meant nothing to the law after the DNA tests came back.

I have found that discussing other similar situations has helped me understand the AA case better. All analogies and connections must be explored.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 12:07:26 PM
Anyway, it's JonBenet Ramseys mother I felt sorry for

This is yet another parallel: the immediate family of real GD Anastasia went through a lot of heartache having to deal with impostors like Anna Anderson for many years. Here was a dead girl who was not allowed to rest in peace for a long time, just like JonBenet... In Anastasia's case, the famiy was not allowed to have closure, as long as new "Anastasias" kept popping up. In JonBenet's case, the family won't have closure until (and if) the real murderer is found, while all the fake confessions continue to haunt them...


Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 01:01:34 PM
Just saw this story on CNN today. According to the Boulder DA, Karr really believes he did it:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/29/karr.da/index.html

Looks like the Boulder DA is definitely closing the case on Karr, no matter what the former suspect - or any other other evidence - says. It goes to show one more time that the DNA has the final word in the legal system, as it most certainly should.  And it also demonstrates once again the power of a delusional mind, that despite such powerful evidence as DNA can still believe....

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Tania+ on August 29, 2006, 02:01:19 PM
Dear Helen,

"If" people don't start to accuse people for things they don't do then there remains no disruption. It is nasty in itself to read that a poster "expects" someone to do something amiss, when in reality, they have not even thought to do so.

No reader needs to read this, nor expect their name to be placed so in public affront.

Annie was and is wrong to do this, and a public apology is in this case to be valued in exchange, as well to Bear directly. I have started no disrupt, nor have I been anything but truthful. You are right, you and Annie need to get back to discussing what you both seem  to think is so relevant. Adeau....

Tatiana+


Tatiana+
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 02:17:52 PM
Anyway, before any more irrelevant nonsense takes up additional space here, I'm moving the latest relevant post to this page...

Just saw this story on CNN today. According to the Boulder DA, Karr really believes he did it:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/29/karr.da/index.html

Looks like the Boulder DA is definitely closing the case on Karr, no matter what the former suspect - or any other other evidence - says. It goes to show one more time that the DNA has the final word in the legal system, as it most certainly should.  And it also demonstrates once again the power of a delusional mind, that despite such powerful evidence as DNA can still believe....

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: J_Kendrick on August 29, 2006, 03:18:10 PM
Anyway, before any more irrelevant nonsense takes up additional space here, I'm moving the latest relevant post to this page...

Just saw this story on CNN today. According to the Boulder DA, Karr really believes he did it:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/29/karr.da/index.html

Looks like the Boulder DA is definitely closing the case on Karr, no matter what the former suspect - or any other other evidence - says. It goes to show one more time that the DNA has the final word in the legal system, as it most certainly should.  And it also demonstrates once again the power of a delusional mind, that despite such powerful evidence as DNA can still believe....



Except that you're all comparing DNA apples with DNA oranges... yet again!!

The Karr/Ramsey case is using nuclear/chromosomal DNA -- while the Anderson/Romanov case was done with the very different mitochondrial type of DNA comparison.

The former (nuclear/chromosomal) type of DNA comparison has been proven to identify specific individuals and is well tested in the courts. 

However....

The latter (mitochondrial) type of DNA testing most certainly is *not* capable of identifying specific individuals.  It can only *indicate* -- but *cannot* prove -- a possible maternal connection between the individuals being compared.  It has *never* been well tested in the courts.

Just maybe, one of these fine days, the majority of people here who still keep insisting on drawing a mistaken comparison between these two very different types of DNA apples and DNA oranges will finally come to understand the very significant differences between the two...

...and maybe then they might also come to understand all of those very important reasons why the one type of DNA (nuclear/chromosomal) is able to prove a specific person's identity... and all of those equally important reasons why the other type of DNA -- the mitochondrial type used in the Romanov case -- most definitely *cannot* identify specific individuals.

... as well as finally coming to understand all of those equally important reasons why the mitochondrial type pf DNA comparison has *never* been tested successfully in the courts.

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Janet_W. on August 29, 2006, 03:51:58 PM
When this all began to evolve, Helen, I was also inclined to compare the situations, and I still think the comparison is valid. As you've noted, parallels do exist, and John Karr will certainly be added to updated editions of books regarding mistaken identities.

Getting away from the comparison to Anna Anderson, I do see Karr as a confused and spooky personality, something just a step or two away from the Norman Bates character. I have nothing against softspoken, semi-effiminite men; several have been my teachers, and I found them to be kind and pleasant, even in the face of cruel taunts and behaviors of from some of my classmates. But Karr has a strangeness from within. His appearance could be considered mildly handsome if he wasn't suffering from such marked emotional disturbance; obviously he should not be anywhere near anyone's children.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 05:41:53 PM
The Karr/Ramsey case is using nuclear/chromosomal DNA -- while the Anderson/Romanov case was done with the very different mitochondrial type of DNA comparison.


Wrong. In the Romanov/Anderson case they used AA's mtDNA and her nuclear DNA, the latter was done to rule her her out as being the child of Nicholas and Alexandra. While in Karr's case, his nuclear DNA was used to rule him out as the killer of JonBenet Ramsey. Not apples and oranges at all but a very reasonable comparison.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 05:48:30 PM
Getting away from the comparison to Anna Anderson, I do see Karr as a confused and spooky personality, something just a step or two away from the Norman Bates character. I have nothing against softspoken, semi-effiminite men; several have been my teachers, and I found them to be kind and pleasant, even in the face of cruel taunts and behaviors of from some of my classmates. But Karr has a strangeness from within. His appearance could be considered mildly handsome if he wasn't suffering from such marked emotional disturbance; obviously he should not be anywhere near anyone's children.


I absolutely agree. This was not the part I thought was parallel to Anderson though. As I said earlier, they are both emotionally disturbed individuals, but in very different ways. In Karr's case there is a whole bouquet of "disturbed-ness", some aspects more or less harmless like AA's, some not harmless at all! The part that i think is analogous to the AA case, is where he wants to take on someone else's identity, much like Anderson did, even going as far as changing his gender (if this is true). The rest of the parallels are purely logistic (for the lack of a better term)...

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 29, 2006, 06:25:12 PM
Just wanted to add a little something to JK's comment above, about "Apples and Oranges":

It sounds like you may be a little confused as to my point. Remember, in this case we are not talking about using DNA to establish or confirm identity, but about using DNA to rule someone out as being someone else.

Hence, in AA's case, we ruled her out as being GD Anastasia because her nuclear DNA was not consistent with the nuclear DNA of her parents, which of course meant she could not have been Anastasia, while in Karr's case we ruled him out as being JonBenet's killer because his nuclear DNA was not consistent with the nuclear DNA from under JB's fingernails/underwear, which of course ruled him out as being her killer. There was no mention at all of mitochodrial DNA, although of course you can still rule someone out with mtDNA as effectively as you can with nuclear DNA, but it's better not to get into that here, since there already seems to be enough confusion with what we have on the table.



Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Alixz on August 29, 2006, 08:03:20 PM
 I did not believe in John M Karr either.  But I do agree that the Boulder DA must have had very good reasons for going through all the motions and bringing him back to Colorado.  I thought the real stretch was the handwriting analysis of the three letters from Karr's yearbook and the signature on the note.  Trying to tie them together made me laugh.

I wonder how many times the real killer could confess and be ruled out before DNA evidence.  And since there was DNA evidence, why do people still believe that one of her parents could have done it?  Wouldn't they have been ruled out right up front?  Or are people still believeing that it was a murder for hire?

And yes, taking on the personality of another is quite strange, but in AAs case she was looking for love and acceptance and was, as has been stated, pretty harmless.

As for Karr, if he is looking for love and acceptance he is looking in all the wrong places.  The only place he will now end up is in a State Mental Hospital after he is charged with the counts of child pornography that he faces and perhaps that is all he wanted.  To go to a hospital and not to a jail.

One more thought, you know who else his picture reminds me of?  Lee Harvey Oswald.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 29, 2006, 09:57:15 PM
Despite the sermonette, I think this an intersting thread. The comparrison of historical & current events is an interesting excercise.
 Lee Harvey Oswald ! Well, they both are rather lean and thin faced, but, no, I do not see it. And, Karr is much better looking, imo.
 Would also curious to see if any other crimes meet this analogy. High profile crimes seem to always attract "pretenders" of a sort.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: zackattack on August 30, 2006, 02:25:43 AM
I did not believe in John M Karr either.  But I do agree that the Boulder DA must have had very good reasons for going through all the motions and bringing him back to Colorado.  I thought the real stretch was the handwriting analysis of the three letters from Karr's yearbook and the signature on the note.  Trying to tie them together made me laugh.

I wonder how many times the real killer could confess and be ruled out before DNA evidence.  And since there was DNA evidence, why do people still believe that one of her parents could have done it?  Wouldn't they have been ruled out right up front?  Or are people still believeing that it was a murder for hire?

And yes, taking on the personality of another is quite strange, but in AAs case she was looking for love and acceptance and was, as has been stated, pretty harmless.

As for Karr, if he is looking for love and acceptance he is looking in all the wrong places.  The only place he will now end up is in a State Mental Hospital after he is charged with the counts of child pornography that he faces and perhaps that is all he wanted.  To go to a hospital and not to a jail.

One more thought, you know who else his picture reminds me of?  Lee Harvey Oswald.

There's some dispute as to the age of the material the DNA was in, and whether or not the DNA under the fingernails matched the DNA found on the child's underwear.Different sources say different things, I can't quite get it straight myself. And.this may be why people still look at the parents.


 But, my opinion has always been that the guilty party was her brother-accident-with the parents covering for him.

 I think Karr should be in jail, or a mental hospital, for something, not this, but keep him off of the streets!!!
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 30, 2006, 02:55:20 AM
Hey, all!   :)

I'm mildly surprised but far from astonished at seeing this turn up here.  As for comparisons of John Mark Karr to Lee Harvey Oswald, I thought it the minute I saw him being hustled through that crowd.  Almost immediately, someone here http://groups.google.com/group/alt.true-crime?lnk=lr brought up the comparison, then everyone was saying it.  It was even on the "Dateline NBC" special about the case.

As for Anna Anderson, I brought her case up in one of the discussions, regarding the "Clever Hans" effect and the long email correspondence between the Karr kook and this Michael Tracey clown.  Someone suggested Tracey egged Karr on until Karr said what Tracey was waiting to hear.  Very like certain encounters of the AA kind!  Unlike AA, the DNA in the Karr case didn't surprise me in the least.  I never suspected any chicanery and needed no convincing as I did with AA.  The handwriting angle is interesting.

Annie, I had no idea the woman confessing in the Jeffrey MacDonald case turned out to be a fake.  I brought up that case in a discussion, too.  Thanks for pointing that out!  There was also a person who claimed to have taken a confession of a man in a church who said he was dying and wanted to unburden his soul.  This man claimed to be one of the "four crazed hippies" who killed the MacDonald family.  Of course, he was unidentified so there was only the word of a person who said they heard him confess.  In that case there was some fiber evidence in the form of synthetic blond wig hairs found at the scene, as well as some witness corroboration of other people being in the house that night.  There are also a few things found at the Ramsey house which might indicate an intruder, but much more to indicate an inside job.

What motivation would the Ramseys have for a murder for hire plot?  They certainly weren't hurting for any possible insurance money and didn't need the attention.  I believe one of the three of them killed JonBenét by accident and the other two have been covering up for the guilty party ever since.  Other family members know or suspect the truth but have closed ranks.  It is ALWAYS strange the things people will claim or confess for attention.  There was even a man who claimed to have spoken to an alien survivor of the Roswell, New Mexico, UFO crash!  His family came forward saying he was full of it.   :D
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2006, 08:54:13 AM
I wonder how many times the real killer could confess and be ruled out before DNA evidence. 

I believe that this was the first time that a suspect in this case was taken so seriously as to do DNA testing. I am not sure why, because there doesn't really seem to be any compelling evidence, other than his confession and knowledge of some details about the case, which he could have picked up somewhere (despite the fact that it wasn't supposed to be common knowledge). I don't really know what the DA was thinking, perhaps she was under a lot of pressure to make the arrest...


High profile crimes seem to always attract "pretenders" of a sort.

Precisely! I think that Anderson, and especially Karr, operated under the motto "there is no such thing as bad publicity" .  I suppose that one of the symptoms of this mental disorder, or whatever you want to call it, is that these people just don't want to remain in obscurity, even if it may mean becoming infamous, and this was obviously Karr's take on things. Hence he inserted himself into a very sensational case, on which he had been fixated for years. AA's motivation was bit more harmless, but the premise was sort of the same...


And yes, taking on the personality of another is quite strange, but in AAs case she was looking for love and acceptance and was, as has been stated, pretty harmless. As for Karr, if he is looking for love and acceptance he is looking in all the wrong places.  The only place he will now end up is in a State Mental Hospital after he is charged with the counts of child pornography that he faces and perhaps that is all he wanted.  To go to a hospital and not to a jail.

I hope so, but I believe that child pornography is only a misdemeanor, so not sure how long he will end up being locked up (even in a mental hospital). Pedophilia is not something that can be "cured", just as psychopaths/serial murderers can't be, so they would either have to keep him locked up for life, or give him certain hormonal treatments for life, which is generally not very effective due to non-compliance. The only other option is castration (apologies to those who are sensitive), but of course we don't do that in this country, nor am I proposing it.

So I think that until he actually does something that is considered a real crime (which theoretically he hasn't so far), I am not sure how long he can be kept away from society.... Maybe they will make some sort of an exception in his case since his case has become so sensational. So in a way, it's a good thing it did, otherwise he would have gotten a slap on the wrist and went on his merry way, working as a grade school teacher for many more years.



Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2006, 08:57:12 AM
It is ALWAYS strange the things people will claim or confess for attention.  There was even a man who claimed to have spoken to an alien survivor of the Roswell, New Mexico, UFO crash! 
 

This is not surprising at all, even if you only base it on the number of royal pretenders, just in the last century (see 'Imperial Survivor Statistics" thread  ;)), not to mention everything else!

About the Oswald comparison, I can definitely see it too - Karr does have that "Oswaldesque" affect and demeanor. Perhaps it's all part of some sort of a psychological syndrome...

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 30, 2006, 11:14:03 AM

But, my opinion has always been that the guilty party was her brother-accident-with the parents covering for him.

But wasn't the brother only 9 years old?

Still  I do think the family is guilty and it was an inside job. Her body was found in a secret room only the parents knew about, even the kids didn't know.They hid Christmas presents there!

The basement room is the biggest thing that reeks of it being an inside job. Look at all REAL criminal abduction cases- Elizabeth Smart, Polly Klaas, Lindbergh baby- they grabbed the kid and went immediately out the window. The main objective is to GET OUT and RUN. The LAST thing a criminal is going to do is to stay in the house, much less go down into the most obscure part of the house where he could be easily boxed if caught! And how could he make all that noise and have NO ONE hear? Add to that that the amount asked for in the ransom note was exactly the same as the Dad's Christmas bonus ($118,000, not a nice round number) and it really seems something is up. I do not think they meant to kill her, and maybe they had been raping her many times before. It's a sad, sad story.

Quote
I think Karr should be in jail, or a mental hospital, for something, not this, but keep him off of the streets!!!

Yes!

And I think he's too skinny to cause an 8 inch break in someone's skull. I never believed him.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 30, 2006, 11:26:46 AM

Annie, I had no idea the woman confessing in the Jeffrey MacDonald case turned out to be a fake.  I brought up that case in a discussion, too.  Thanks for pointing that out!  There was also a person who claimed to have taken a confession of a man in a church who said he was dying and wanted to unburden his soul.  This man claimed to be one of the "four crazed hippies" who killed the MacDonald family.  Of course, he was unidentified so there was only the word of a person who said they heard him confess.  In that case there was some fiber evidence in the form of synthetic blond wig hairs found at the scene, as well as some witness corroboration of other people being in the house that night.  There are also a few things found at the Ramsey house which might indicate an intruder, but much more to indicate an inside job.


I don't know if she was officially proven a fraud or if they just couldn't find any evidence to  validate her story, but either way, it didn't come to anything. I never heard about the other guy, guess we'll never know the truth on that. I really think McDonald did it and used the Manson family scenario to try to make it believable to the cops. One thing that always gets me about these husbands with wives and/or families murdered is that they always turn up only slightly injiured, like in the arm, while the others are brutally killed. Why are they not hurt badly? Wouldn't they have been even if they had tried to fight the intruders off of their family?

There was a story years ago of four teenage siblings beaten to death by one of the girls' estranged boyfriends. The only boy turned out to be the most brutally wounded, as he had fought very hard to save each of his sisters. Why didn't McDonald do that? Only a few scratches, huh? Could it be he did it himself to look good, like Charles Stuart did when he claimed he was carjacked, but he actually killed his pregnant wife? (by the way, I totally called that one right away, and my husband guessed Susan Smith right away.)
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 30, 2006, 11:38:30 AM
I confess to being one of the few people in this country who is not really following this story. To me, the whole idea of "child beauty queens/pageants" verged on kiddie porn from the beginning. All I really catch are the headlines and maybe brief articles on BBC.
So, who is Michael Tracey and who is the parallel in the AA story ?
 I also seem to recall that during the infamous Nicole Simpson/Ron Goldman murders & trial that there were claimants to being the true murderer as well.  I think they were all dismissed very rapidly.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Raegan on August 30, 2006, 12:07:55 PM
And since there was DNA evidence, why do people still believe that one of her parents could have done it?  Wouldn't they have been ruled out right up front? 

Yes, her parents were ruled out through DNA. Just like this Karr guy was ruled out through DNA, and just like Anna Anderson was proven not to be Anastasia through DNA.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/12/16/48hours/main661569.shtml



Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 30, 2006, 12:27:31 PM
There was unidentified DNA at the scene, but as Zack said we don't really know where it came from or how old it was. While it's true it's not the parents', that doesn't prove the parents and/or someone they know weren't involved.The entire thing has every sign of an inside job and not a common intruder. In all these years, they've never found anyone else but  Karr, and he's not the guy. So this may never end.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 30, 2006, 12:30:25 PM
To me, the whole idea of "child beauty queens/pageants" verged on kiddie porn from the begining.

Yes, her pictures did look disturbingly like kiddie porn, even to this day when you see them you see a little girl fixed up to look like a grown up call girl. This apparently caused someone to have a sick fantasy about her that led to raping and murdering her, as sad and tragic as that is.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2006, 12:35:57 PM
Just a friendly reminder that this thread is not about who killed JonBenet and why, but about the parallels between the Karr case, Anderson case, and other cases like it - i.e. false claims and ruling them out through science.

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Elisabeth on August 30, 2006, 12:36:39 PM
As I recall the Boulder police's problem with the DNA found in JonBenet's underwear was due to the fact that the child was not completely potty-trained (or at least had regressed in her potty training, not for the first time) and was known to ask any adult in the immediate vicinity to wipe her after going to the bathroom. Other times, after having had an accident, she was brought home wearing clean underpants borrowed from one of her little girlfriends. All of these factors were what made the unknown male DNA found at the crime scene problematic for those detectives who thought one of the Ramseys did it.

Personally I still have trouble stomaching the ransom note. The War and Peace of ransom notes, as many have called it - what chance is there that an intruder would take the time to compose such a lengthy and detailed ransom note - moreover, with paper and pen belonging to the victim's parents? True, stranger things have happened... I'm trying to keep an open mind.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 30, 2006, 12:45:42 PM
While I think this is an interesting discussion, one thing remains clear to me; AA claimed to be the victim of a violent crime, perhaps seeking some sort of fame[?] while these other claim to be the perpetrators of violent crimes, seeking notoriety [infamy]


A rather tenuous link to be sure.
 

I vaguely recall reading some years ago that there were even Hitler claimants at one time![after his death in the bunker]
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Raegan on August 30, 2006, 01:10:07 PM
The DNA was mixed with this child’s blood and it came from a Caucasian male. It did not match anyone in her family or their circle of friends. The DNA has been put in a national database in hopes of finding a hit, so the DNA is being taken very seriously. I think it is a bit of a double standard for people to go by the DNA to exclude Karr, but then not exclude her parents. Besides, there is quite a bit of evidence supporting the intruder theory, and that first link I posted (the link that provided information that DNA cleared her parents) informs readers about that evidence. In that first link, it talked about another unsolved crime in Boulder that was very similar to JonBenet’s case. A man broke into a home a few months after JonBenet was murdered. He waited for the family to come home and then when everyone was sleeping, he started to attack the girl while her mother was sleeping nearby. He fled out a window after her mother heard a noise and went to investigate. I will also provide another link, in case anyone is interested in reading about the intruder evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14395331/site/newsweek/

But now I will kindly bow out, because I fear this thread has strayed from the original topic. DNA excluded two people from being who they claimed to be, and I think that is important for people to remember. It shows the power of DNA.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2006, 01:22:46 PM
I think there may still be some who are misunderstanding as to what I meant by "parallels" between the two cases. Of course I don't profess that Anderson and Karr as individuals are similar - they are not (other than the fact that both had false claims and both were mentally unstable). The similarities I am referring to have to do with the empirical aspects of the two cases. You have two mentally unstable individuals who for their own reasons claim to be someone they are not. There are similarities in the way these two individuals seemed to seek notoriety by becoming someone else. There are similarities in the various reasons they were taken seriously and how they became notorious. There are similarities in the ways they were proven to be fakes.

One of my main points is that had it not been for DNA, Karr may have gone for a long time as the "Ramsey killer", even though he wasn't all that convincing to begin with. To me Schankowska/AA was never very convincing either, but she was embraced by many people as the real Anastasia, even to this day, despite the DNA evidence. So Karr could have done it too, after all, he convinced the DA to take him seriously, and had it not been for the prompt DNA results, this would have dragged on for a long long time. Just as AA pulled off her own scam for many years because no DNA testing was available at the time. But because DNA testing was available for Karr, he was immediately ruled out. Even though he supposedly had some details of the murder that no one else knew. Even though the handwriting experts said that the ransom note was written by him. Etc., etc., etc.

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 30, 2006, 01:28:14 PM
The DNA was mixed with this child’s blood and it came from a Caucasian male. It did not match anyone in her family or their circle of friends. The DNA has been put in a national database in hopes of finding a hit, so the DNA is being taken very seriously. I think it is a bit of a double standard for people to go by the DNA to exclude Karr, but then not exclude her parents. Besides, there is quite a bit of evidence supporting the intruder theory, and that first link I posted (the link that provided information that DNA cleared her parents) informs readers about that evidence. In that first link, it talked about another unsolved crime in Boulder that was very similar to JonBenet’s case. A man broke into a home a few months after JonBenet was murdered. He waited for the family to come home and then when everyone was sleeping, he started to attack the girl while her mother was sleeping nearby. He fled out a window after her mother heard a noise and went to investigate. I will also provide another link, in case anyone is interested in reading about the intruder evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14395331/site/newsweek/

But now I will kindly bow out, because I fear this thread has strayed from the original topic. DNA excluded two people from being who they claimed to be, and I think that is important for people to remember. It shows the power of DNA.


Thank you Raegan, I think you understand exactly where I am coming from with this topic and what my intentions were. And BTW, I agree with your assessment of the Ramsey case. It is quite clear that the DNA derived from the child's underwear (which was consistent with the DNA they got from under her fingernails) came from her killer, thus ruling out not only JM Karr but also anyone in the Ramsey family including her parents. But this is yet another example of how easily misinformation in a given case can get around among spectators (just as it did in the AA case).



Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 31, 2006, 03:19:07 AM
Michael Tracey = overzealous professor who made three documentaries bent on proving the Ramsey parents' innocence.  Far from objectively portraying the facts, his documentaries had an agenda to PROVE the parents' innocence, rather like the agendas of some to prove Anna Anderson was Anastasia at all costs.   ::)  He also may have had an agenda to bring in the "real killer."  In that way he parallels Gleb Botkin in the AA case, who had an agenda to find a surviving Romanov child, and, if one weren't to be had, create one by providing information to the nearest reasonable facsimile.

As for people really believing they're someone they're not, well, there's David Letterman's "wife" (Margaret Ray--schizophrenic  :-[) and I read once that author Alexandre Dumas at the end of his life really believed himself to be his own fictional creation, the Count of Monte Cristo, and sailed off with a girl he believed to be Princess Haydee.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on August 31, 2006, 04:05:43 AM
People also claimed to be Billy the Kid, Jesse James, and Butch Cassidy, and a man had a mummy he claimed to be that of John Wilkes Booth.  http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbooth.html  All either unproven, or proven to be untrue, but some people still believe them.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 31, 2006, 05:48:33 AM
Hello to you Eddieboy_uk,

Yes, I felt sorry for both the mother and father, and their son. It has become such a nightmare, that i have heard the father has decided to move to europe, because of all the issues the press has brought about. I think they could have handled it all much better than they had. It is and has been quite distressing inmho, and I'm not even a member of the family. But, I can see how much pain this can bring to parent's of a child who has been murdered. Nice to see you posting Eddie :). Take care.

Tatiana+

Thank you Tania. All in all a very sad story   :'( :'( :'( :'(
Take care  xxx
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on August 31, 2006, 09:05:05 AM
People also claimed to be Billy the Kid, Jesse James, and Butch Cassidy, and a man had a mummy he claimed to be that of John Wilkes Booth.  http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbooth.html  All either unproven, or proven to be untrue, but some people still believe them.

Oh yes, I've heard about them all and they're very interesting. I think most of them have been proven frauds by DNA too. There may still be one or two they are still llooking for a female maternal relative to test (and yes the DO make sure it's a real, whole sister before they test!) unless they've found them since the last reports I saw.

Quote
I read once that author Alexandre Dumas at the end of his life really believed himself to be his own fictional creation, the Count of Monte Cristo, and sailed off with a girl he believed to be Princess Haydee.

This is like actor Johnny Weismuller coming to believe he was really Tarzan in his old age and running down the road making the famous yell :-[ It is sad and strange how the mind can mix fantasy and reality.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 31, 2006, 09:26:12 AM
I think Bela Lugosi also merged with his Count Dracula role. Even being buried  dressed as the Count.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: AGRBear on August 31, 2006, 11:26:56 AM
Having many friends who are or were  DAs,  I have to sit back and show my disatisfaction face   :-\ at the so-called facts that some of you have based your conclusions.  Haven't any of you realized that everything you read in the newspaper or hear on the television isn't necessarily true???

I agree with many lawyers who deal in criminal cases that there should be a "gag" order on all criminal cases until after the trial and verdict.

The only  reason this hasn't been set into law is because once upon a time, the press helped keep a check and balance in regards to a person rights in being given a fair trial.

Today, too many of our  modern reporters have run amuck and have became barriers of "sensationalism" instead of investigative reporters who are looking for the truth.

Arm chair sleuths, who read these  "sensationalize" reports in their newspapers or watch this stuff repeated by television reporters,  can become dangerous when they jump to conclusions without knowing the "real" evidence which would be present in a "real" court trial.  Why are they dangerous?  Because  these people  sometimes become hysterical mobs who drive public opinion into thinking someone is guilty or inoscent based on these so-called facts which may be nothing more than garbage in and garbage out.

The moral of my story is: 
"Truth, sir, is a profound sea, and few there be who dare wade deep enough to find the bottom of it."

Farquar, THE BEAUX' STRATAGEM.  Act v, sc. 1.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 02, 2006, 06:35:13 PM

The latter (mitochondrial) type of DNA testing most certainly is *not* capable of identifying specific individuals.  It can only *indicate* -- but *cannot* prove -- a possible maternal connection between the individuals being compared.  It has *never* been well tested in the courts.

BTW, you are wrong in this case too, about mtDNA "never been well tested in courts". I refer you to the case of Tracy Jo Shine, whose murderer Michael Neal was charged and convicted based strongly on mtDNA evidence. There are other examples in the legal system...   

".... In 1987, Shine disappeared after giving police information about Michael Neal--her boyfriend--as part of a plea agreement in a drug case. Detectives quickly came to the conclusion that Neal killed Shine to keep her quiet, but a lack of hard evidence stymied the investigation. Years later, however, a mitochondrial DNA test provided the evidence needed to pursue the case... "  COLD CASE FILES episode, September 2, 2006, 7pm.   http://www.murdervictims.com/Voices/Tracy_Shine.htm




Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on September 02, 2006, 06:44:30 PM
STATE V. WARE, 1999 WL 233592 (Tennessee, April 1999)

Procedural History: The defendant was convicted of felony murder and multiple counts of rape. He received concurrent 25-year sentences for each rape conviction and was sentenced to life without parole for the felony murder conviction. The defendant has appealed his convictions and sentences on several grounds, including whether the mitochondrial DNA evidence was properly admitted.

Facts: After spending the night drinking, the defendant went to the house where the victim, a four-year-old girl, was sleeping. He was a friend of the family and had stayed there on previous occasions. The victim’s mother was out and a family friend was watching the sleeping children. When the defendant arrived, he said he was going to bed. He went to bed in the room where the victim was sleeping. The room contained two twin beds and the person watching the house assumed he would pass out on the empty bed.

Approximately an hour later, the mother, having recently returned home, went to check on her daughter. The door to the bedroom had been locked from the inside and when she knocked on the door no one responded. The mother picked the lock and when she entered the room, she noticed that both beds were empty and her daughter’s clothes were crumpled up in the comforter. The mother then opened the door to a laundry room connected to the back of the bedroom and discovered the naked bodies of the defendant and her daughter lying on the floor. Looking blue and feeling cold, the daughter was rushed to the hospital where attempts to resuscitate her failed. The emergency room doctor testified that both the victim’s vagina and rectum were torn.

The medical examiner determined the cause of death to be mechanical asphyxia. During his examination, the doctor found a hair stuck to the victim’s lip, one touching the mucosa of her rectum and a third hair in the victim’s pharynx. The police recovered additional hairs off the victim’s bed. A special agent with the FBI’s Hair and Fibers Unit testified regarding the testing he performed on the hairs found at the crime scene and on the victim’s body. He concluded that the hairs from the bed and the hair in the victim’s pharynx were consistent with having originated from the defendant. He pointed out, however, that hair comparison is not a means of making a positive identification and as such, he could not conclusively say if the hairs belonged to the defendant.

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) testing was performed by the FBI on the hairs recovered from the victim’s throat and from a hair on the bed sheet. The DNA sequence obtained was compared with that of the defendant’s saliva. The three samples shared a common sequence and none of the sample matched the sample taken from the victim. The FBI expert conducting the mtDNA testing explained that the hairs in question were consistent with having originated from the defendant, but that he could not assign a frequency rate to the results because the database for mtDNA population statistical analysis was not large enough to assign a frequency. He did mention that the sequence had never been observed in the FBI database of 742 individuals.

The defendant offered the testimony of a geneticist who testified that mtDNA typing was not scientifically reliable and that it had not yet been subjected to proper peer review or publication. (No admissibility hearing was conducted before the trial.)

Issue: Is mitochondrial DNA testing evidence sufficiently reliable to be deemed trustworthy and thus admissible?

Holding: Yes. Mitochondrial DNA testing is sufficiently reliable so as to be trustworthy and admissible.

Reasoning: In Tennessee, the Tennessee Rules of Evidence have replaced Frye in governing the admissibility of expert testimony on DNA analysis. In interpreting the applicable rules, the Tennessee Supreme Court has developed a two-step approach for trial courts to follow. The trial court must first determine if the evidence will substantially assist the trier of fact to determine a fact in issue. The trial court must then determine if the facts underlying the evidence are trustworthy. There is no requirement in the rules that the evidence be generally accepted.

While this court indicated that it was somewhat questionable as to whether the mtDNA testimony was such that it would substantially assist the jury, the court nevertheless concluded that the trial judge did not abuse his discretion in admitting the results. There was sufficient evidence in the testimony of the State’s expert regarding the validity of mtDNA analysis for the courts to find it valid and trustworthy.

Even if the evidence had been improperly admitted, the court determined that this would have been a harmless error because absent a frequency rate, the testimony did not provide a strong basis for a lay person to reach a scientific conclusion.

Disposition: The judgment of the trial court was affirmed.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: zackattack on September 09, 2006, 02:49:32 AM

But, my opinion has always been that the guilty party was her brother-accident-with the parents covering for him.

But wasn't the brother only 9 years old?

Still  I do think the family is guilty and it was an inside job. Her body was found in a secret room only the parents knew about, even the kids didn't know.They hid Christmas presents there!

The basement room is the biggest thing that reeks of it being an inside job. Look at all REAL criminal abduction cases- Elizabeth Smart, Polly Klaas, Lindbergh baby- they grabbed the kid and went immediately out the window. The main objective is to GET OUT and RUN. The LAST thing a criminal is going to do is to stay in the house, much less go down into the most obscure part of the house where he could be easily boxed if caught! And how could he make all that noise and have NO ONE hear? Add to that that the amount asked for in the ransom note was exactly the same as the Dad's Christmas bonus ($118,000, not a nice round number) and it really seems something is up. I do not think they meant to kill her, and maybe they had been raping her many times before. It's a sad, sad story.

Quote

I could be wrong but to me the idea that it was the brother-accident- and the parents were covering for him, to me, makes the most logical sense. In the beginning there was their insistence-to the point of hysteria- that he was asleep the whole time and they never bothered to wake him. But then, the enhanced 911 tape was released to the general public. After she made the call, the mother forgot to hang up the phone. In the background the boy can be heard screaming:

Boy: Please! Please! What do I do?!

Father: We're not talking to you!

Mother: Help me Jesus! Help me!

Boy: But what did you find?

The boy swore he was asleep the whole time, the parents swore their son was asleep, and when they were confronted with this
tape, they claimed that it was "doctoured" and "faked"-as if those FBI  tech guys wouldn't have anything better to do with their time! ::)

Then there was another stranged appearance that the parents made on Larry King live. They went on TV to confront one of the FBI detectives who had written a book, flat out, accusing them of having commited the crime. The detective went through a list of evidence, then came to the part about the ransom note, and stated that alone out of 40 to 60 people Patsy could not be discounted as the author of the ransom note.

Well, instead of bringing up the point that handwriting analysis is total subjective and there is great room for error because human judgement
is involved, the father comes back with:

Father: You're telling me that because my wife alone, out of 50 people could not be discounted as the author of the ransom note that
that makes her a murderer! Well, I tell you that that does not make her a murderer!!

Well, does that make her the author of the ransom note? He didn't defend his wife at all from the accusation of having written the note. Only that that doesn't make her a murderer.    And, if he's the guilty party, why isn't he being defensive? Why would he run the risk of blowing his cover?

And what are the odds that the ransom note would have been written for the benefit of a complete stranger?

IMHO, they've made many little goofs like that over the years. 
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: zackattack on September 09, 2006, 02:55:00 AM
Just a friendly reminder that this thread is not about who killed JonBenet and why, but about the parallels between the Karr case, Anderson case, and other cases like it - i.e. false claims and ruling them out through science.

Thanks!  :)

You're right ! Sorry about that Helen! :-[
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2007, 03:20:43 PM
Bringing forward since Alixz brought up the topic of Sommersby!
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 13, 2007, 03:33:04 PM
IMO, the Sommersby/Martin Guerre factor would work much better with Michael Romanov rather than Anna Anderson  ;).
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Annie on June 13, 2007, 03:42:33 PM
Yeah, what a story if he were alive! Somebody write a book! :D

Gee I had forgotten how this had degraded into a 'was AA a Soviet agent' thread! Remember the old 'Cheka plant?' ;) Almost as groovy as the chimera! :o

Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Helen_Azar on June 13, 2007, 03:46:31 PM
Yeah, what a story if he were alive! Somebody write a book! :D

I have no doubt someone will...  ;)

Remember the old 'Cheka plant?' ;) Almost as groovy as the chimera! :o

Nothing is as groovy as the chimera.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 17, 2007, 02:15:58 AM

Pardon, but what is a chimera?
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Alixz on June 18, 2007, 11:01:16 PM
I have not read or seen the original Return of Martin Guerre, but what I got from Sommersby is that, in the end, it was his love for the woman who had accepted him as her husband and their unborn child( born or unborn, I can't remember) that led him to continue to be "Sommersby" and to die as him.

It was better to die and keep his "wife" an honest woman and their child legitimate, than to tell the truth and leave her as a liar and to "bastardize" the child.  It was truth verses love and loyalty.  During that particular era being a widow was preferable to being found out as a conspirator and Sommersby as too kind and too much in love by this time to hurt his "wife" and child and leave them with that legacy.

But the comparison to AA or to the person who claimed to be Michael Alexandrovich or even to the Canadian who claimed to be Alexei Nicholaevich is right on target.

The big difference is that no one from the IF wanted to take in the "stranger" as did the wife of Sommersby.  And she did that since he was so much nicer and more loving than her husband. 

No one in the IF found the "impostors" to be more wonderful that the originals.

And as much as I would have loved to believe that AN escaped.  I always hated the way that AA lived.  In filth and without grace and dignity.  I mean I love cats, but she just had too darn many!  Even in Kurth's book he describes the home of the Manahans as being the disgrace of the block.

And I don't think that anything could erase the years of training in being Imperial and a lady for the original AN.  Even when Olga Alexandrovna began to live as simply as she could with her husband and family, she did not descend into filth or degrade the memory of her family.  She was always, as she said, "A Russian Grand Duchess".
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: Alixz on May 30, 2009, 04:29:00 PM
This very old topic caught my attention while I was editing this thread.

I didn't think about it before, but The Return of Martin Guerre = guerre is "war" in French.

Just thinking about the title and if it is a true story then it is quite a coincidence.
Title: Re: Parallels between the John M Karr and Anna Anderson Cases - The Sommersby Factor
Post by: klava1985 on November 22, 2009, 08:08:05 PM
For Pete's sake. The Return of MG is set in the 16th Cent, right? How would we know if it were a true story and to what extent all the details were true? It's just a comparison of phenomena. Re mental illness and the persistence of delusions, mental illness, untreated, breaks down the brain. It makes it harder and harder to function normally, including to think normally (ie to remember who one "really" is) and to deal with details like cleaning your house.