Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: Teddy on December 11, 2004, 11:34:45 AM

Title: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on December 11, 2004, 11:34:45 AM
I was wondering of Maria Pavlovna and Duke Heinrich (half-brother, married to Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands) of Mecklenburg-Schwerin had many contact with eachother?

Because I never see a picture of MP with her German relatives in general.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on December 12, 2004, 01:03:39 AM
I believe that she did, but photos may be scarce as there was such an age difference. There was a photo in one of the royal photo books of a Reuss wedding that Vladimir & Miechen were at as either the bride or groom was a relative. There are probably a lot more photos of Miechen out there that just haven't been published yet as most of the books on are N&A. That's why Camera and the Tsars is one of my all-time favorites.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on December 12, 2004, 03:28:17 PM
I have only once seen a picture of MP being at the wedding of her half brother...Thats the only picture what I know were MP and others of the Mecklenburg members are together on one picture...

On the picture she is sitting with Grand Duke Vladimir and I thougt Grand Duke Boris.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2005, 06:05:37 AM
I know that we have some infos about her on Vladimirovichi of Helen Vladimirovna thread,but I thik this woman deserves much more atention!Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna,born Duchess Marie Alexandrine von Mecklenburg-Schwerin!Such a strong minded person...I was wondering what were all the reasons why she was considered "the grandiest of all Grand Duchesses"?I assume that every Grand Duchess was rich enough to have great amount of jewels,so there must be also some other reason!?!Is there any good portrait of her(she was beautiful when young),since I could find only photos?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: DOMOVOII on January 29, 2005, 06:47:17 AM
You are quite right, for me GDss Maria Pavlovna was one of the most interesting women of the era.  The Grande Dame of Europe, was a soubriquet conferred upon her, and she dazzled it's capitals, with her style and jewels, and more importantly her "presence".

She was famed for her jewels and must have been Cartier's best customer being instrumental in bringing the Parisian jeweller to St Petersburg, even to the point of introducing him to the Imperial couple. Miechen ordered a great many important pieces from him right up until 1914 and the outbreak of war.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to dig up much in the way of information about her, I always assume that the animosity that N&A had towards her, influenced the number of biogs  written about her and then assumed that GD Kyrill wouldn't have wanted the greyer areas of his entitlement to the throne in exile made common knowledge. I have asked and asked, and abe/amazon searched but to no avail. Perhaps some one else has had better luck.



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on January 29, 2005, 10:02:45 AM
I think she gained the reputation because of a variety of factors:
1) her regal and dignified bearing--she loved being a GDSs
2) her collection of jewels--her collection was well-regarded even by Romanov standards
3) her love of society and her filling in of the role due to AF's dislike of it
4) her competitive nature to be THE hostess of St Petersburg society
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on January 29, 2005, 10:15:04 AM
Here is what Missy had to say and it sheds light on why Miechen was such a popular hostess:

Aunt Miechen, an exceptionally charming and intelligent lady, was also ambitious and it was not without a certain satisfaction that by force of circumstance she became the social centre of Petersburg. It must be admitted that she was an incomparably amiable hostess and knew to perfection how to receive all manner of men. All through life she had been cherished, adulted, spoiled. She could spend what she would, every luxury, every comfort, every honour, every advantage were hers and she was one of the best-dressed women of her time; her clothes were superlatively smart and she had the great art of knowing exactly what to wear for each occasion; she never made a mistake. An atmosphere of unlimited prosperity emanated from her, she was the undisputed centre of her world, her very aspect invited attention; one of life's most spoilt children, she seemed to expect everyone who approached her to continue the spoiling, which the generally did, and yet it was she who appeared to be dispensing favours. There was great art in this. Her house was certainly a most pleasant one for a short stay, as her hospitality was unlimited, and all hte most important and interesting people came together in her salon. Here she reigned supreme...she was less intelligent than believed, but she had la maniere and this counted more than anything.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2005, 11:14:05 AM
Wau...this is great!So that was the reason why AF didn't like her...I can't think what would had been if Marie was an Empress...Things could go quite opposite,maybe even without revolution!Any regal coulour portrait of her?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: DOMOVOII on January 29, 2005, 11:49:57 AM
, AF didn't like her for a number of reasons, mainly that MP had ambitions for her children that the Imp Fam didn't share. MP also towards the end of the Empire became involved in a number of small schemes/plots to force N to resign and install another family member on the throne. I am sure there are many other examples that members can quote but I believe AF's attitude was influenced foremost by these. She also differred her conversion to Orthodoxy which was another sticking point for family members.

MP filled the social void in St Petersburg, her court outshone that of the Empress. Which considering AF had little inclination for it only guaranteed MP's social standing.

All in all a very interesting woman. I would have loved to have met her.

My favourite quote regarding her;

"We have heard a great deal of the gentlemen of the age and now one about the ladies, Well, here is one without any shadow of doubt whatsoever, in fact  I may call her the Lady of Europe of the time. With Petersburg as her capital city where her court outstripped that of the Empress, every other capital knew her well and none better than London. Imperious, capable to a degree that was uncanny; without any preparation whatever she could adapt herself to the most diverse assembly without any previous knowledge of it's human components and come out of the ordeal as fresh and as undaunted as when she entered. Always with the right question to ask, the search of which is the prime concern for all royal ladies, was to her as natural as the intake of breath."

HC Bainbridge
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on January 29, 2005, 05:41:51 PM
That's one more reason why I wan't to see her portrait(black and white photos are o.k. but still...art is art and art is beauty)...That's why I am so badly searching for it!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: gem_10 on January 30, 2005, 07:37:36 PM
What do you think MP's views with other grand duchesses? I would like to know if she ever felt a sort of "rivalry" for Ella since Ella is also one of the most beautiful and well-loved grand duchesses in the family.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on January 31, 2005, 04:41:09 AM
True,but I think that Ella was not to keen on getting high society positions,because she already had one(there isnt anything to fight for) and had her own world...But,as we see Marie Pavlovna enjoyed beeing Grand Dame...so I think there was no rivality!Maybe,just maybe if Ella was thinking the same about MP because of Alix's influence!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bluetoria on January 31, 2005, 05:14:36 AM
I think Ella was frightened of Miechen.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: gem_10 on January 31, 2005, 06:58:34 AM
Quote
I think Ella was frightened of Miechen.


In what way?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on January 31, 2005, 07:06:53 AM
I think that the two of them simply had different worlds...I think that rather Grand Duchesses Anastasia and Militsa could be jelous of Michen,but sinse Crown Prince Danilo of Montenegro met Duchess Auguste Charlotte Jutta von Mecklenburg-Strelitz(his future wife) in Michen's salon,even that seems to be out of guestion.But it would be interesting to know wich Grand Duchess or Princess was jelous of Michen!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Dennis on January 31, 2005, 09:10:28 AM
So, how does one pronounce "Miechen?"


I wonder if she was jealous of Alix and Ellas's beauty?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on January 31, 2005, 09:20:57 AM
Isn't it true that Miechen was instrumental in helping Ella integrate into St P society when first she was married?  Also that they initailly shared the common bond of being the only Grand Duchesses who shared the same Lutheran faith, having not converted to Orthodoxy.
It is more than likely that Miechen's love of grandeur and society and Ella's increasingly spiritual bent (and her eventual conversion) caused their paths to digress.
It is said that Miechen attempted to become friendly with Alix upon her marriage with a view to exerting her influence over her, but that her attempts at friendship were rebuffed, for which the former never forgave the Empress.  Miechen spent a great deal of time and money in her atempts to be leader of society; having said that both she and Vladimir were very interested in the arts, and their patronage and influence was considerable.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 31, 2005, 09:23:49 AM
It sounds like it was basically a personality conflict...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marlene on January 31, 2005, 10:43:38 AM
Quote
Isn't it true that Miechen was instrumental in helping Ella integrate into St P society when first she was married?  Also that they initailly shared the common bond of being the only Grand Duchesses who shared the same Lutheran faith, having not converted to Orthodoxy."

Grand Duchess Elizabeth (wife of Constantine) never converted, and remained Lutheran.

It
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: DOMOVOII on January 31, 2005, 11:46:28 AM
Wouldn't Maria have out-ranked Ella anyways?

She was the third most important woman in the Empire, and after 1909 when Vladimir died,  possibly the most independant of all the Romanov women. Able to do as she chose, to go, to buy,to see, to wear, to visit whatever and wherever she wanted. With none of the constraints of a husband or the social predilections of others (Ella's Alms) beside that of pleasing herself.

I'm not entirely sure whether she'd have felt jealous of anyone, she seemed to me to be extremely self assured and aware of her talents. Jealousy to me only occurs when there is doubt in the mind. She definitely knew her mind.

Looking at pictures of her in her youth; (sorry I can't post... the valves and pistons canna take it Cap'n!!) she was pretty. Now she doesn't have the "refined, ethereal" quality  that Ella and Alix in her youth had but is never the less not unnattractive. Sure she thickened in later years but she remained a striking woman. (I suppose a few hundred carat weight in diamonds will always help there)

Most of the famous jewels got divided between her children at her death, some pieces from her collection passed to family members around Europe . Queen Mary acquired the tiara you see in the photo of MP, it is now part of the Queen Elizabeth's personal collection.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on January 31, 2005, 01:24:57 PM
Yes, Miechen would've outranked Ella though Ella was probably in a better position being close to NII when he was Tsarevich and then later when Nicholas married Alexandra. Miechen apparently wanted to gain the young Empress's confidence when Alix first arrived and be sort of a mentor but was rebuffed. With Ella's influence in that arena there could've been some bad feeling.

I don't have my Mager bio on Ella which probably talks about her early time as a leader of society but here's what Almedingen's bio has to say in regards to Miechen:

'Not all of the in-laws became her friends, but Elizabeth succeeding in avoiding friction even with the peevish and difficult Grand Duchess Michael and the formidable 'Miechen', wife of Grand Duke Vladimir, who, in spite of his frenzied Anglo-phobia, approved of the wife of a brother whom he held in anything but affection. The Emperor and his wife were great intimates, and Elizabeth grew very fond of their children, particularly of Nicholas..and of Xenia...'

re: Romanov women and war work
'Now the great star on the Petrograd firmament was Grand Duchess Vladimir, a consummate hostess, a woman of a great many gifts and as many ambitions....the handsome, imperious 'Miechen' had it all very much her own way. In justice be it said that she did more than organize balls and parties de plaisir . President of the Academy of Arts, she gave a helping hand to many a struggling artist. She prided herself on moving with the tiems, and poets, musicians, sculptors and painters could be met in her enormous crimson drawing-room. But Grand Duchess Vladimir possessed two unpleasing traits: contempt and jealousy. She despised her nephew, the Emperor, and considered his wife a nonentity. Herself a virtual stranger to Moscow, Grand Duchess Vladimir was jealous of Elizabeth's popularity there. Within the first few days of the war, 'Miechen' organized her own committee. She commanded great wealth and meant to spend much of it on war-work. It irked her to be excluded from those preliminary conferences at Tsarskoe and she is supposed to have said that 'dearest Ella surely had her hands full already what with her convent and all the paupers in Moscow'. [These comments reached her ears] but 'Elizabeth remained indifferent'. Gossip had long since lost its sting for her.'

'Quite a few members of the Romanov clan considered her [Ella] intransigeante. Grand Duchess Vladimir said that it might have been better if 'dearest Ella' had been entirely cloistered--such a chilly breath did she bring to the family gatherings, and why, Grand Duchess Vladimir would ask, appear at a wedding at all if you vanished immediately the service was over? Would a vocation be imperilled by a glass of champagne drunk to the bride's health and happiness.'

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on January 31, 2005, 03:42:52 PM
You have got to admire the woman's style.  Much as I like Ella, I can't help but feel that it would be Miechen to whom I would be drawn, like a moth to a flame, if I had been fortunate to have been alive at that time and to have had the entrée to her society.
'Would a vocation be imperilled by a glass of champagne drunk to the bride's health and happiness?'  I can hear her now.........
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on January 31, 2005, 04:33:31 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Miechensemeraldnecklace.jpg)

I think that it is time for some jewellery; let's start with Miechen's fabulous emerald and diamond necklace which ultimately ended up with Barbara Hutton.....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on January 31, 2005, 04:38:06 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Miechensrubytiara.jpg)

Then there is her wonderful ruby and daimond tiara that was made for her by Cartier in 1908,  The central; stone was the Beauharnais ruby which had been bought from descendants of Empress Josephine and which weighed 5.22 carats.  Subsequently sold after Miechen's death, it was purchased by Nancy Leeds, whose appetite for jewels was nearly as well developed as Miechen's
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on January 31, 2005, 04:39:56 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Miechensrubydiamondbrooch.jpg)

How about a brooch to add to Miechen's ruby parure....?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on January 31, 2005, 04:46:35 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Miechenssapphiretiara.jpg)

Perhaps sapphires and diamonds?  Sapphire and diamond kokoshnik set with a cushion shaped sapphire of 137.20 carats flanked by six cabochon sapphires weighing 102.16 carats on circular-cut diamond mount.  Commissioned by Miechen from Cartier in 1909.  Subsequently acquired by Marie of Roumania and passed to her daughter Ileana, who subsequently took it into exile and sold it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on January 31, 2005, 04:49:40 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Miechensdiamondbriolettetiara.jpg)

This is lovely.  A briolette diamond aigrette designed as three floral sprays with circular-cut diamond base, suspending briolette-cut diamonds.  Commisioned by Miechen from Cartier in 1908 - I wonder what became of it.....?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bluetoria on January 31, 2005, 04:51:15 PM
Quote

 she is supposed to have said that 'dearest Ella surely had her hands full already what with her convent and all the paupers in Moscow'. [These comments reached her ears] but 'Elizabeth remained indifferent'. Gossip had long since lost its sting for her.'

'Quite a few members of the Romanov clan considered her [Ella] intransigeante. Grand Duchess Vladimir said that it might have been better if 'dearest Ella' had been entirely cloistered--such a chilly breath did she bring to the family gatherings, and why, Grand Duchess Vladimir would ask, appear at a wedding at all if you vanished immediately the service was over? Would a vocation be imperilled by a glass of champagne drunk to the bride's health and happiness.'



>:(Then I'm sure Miechen only spoke about the 'chilly breath' she brought to family gatherings because she was a superficial woman with no understanding of Ella's character at all.
I'm sure I wouldn't have found the air chilly...and as for the glass of champagne, for Ella it was a total commitment; "he who sets his handthe plough" etc. she had left behind the world of 'high society' & that's why she left early after the service.  
It might have done Miechen good to visit Ella's convent & show a bit more understanding!!
:) :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on January 31, 2005, 04:52:15 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/MiechensCartieraigrette.jpg)

Finally, a very lovely emerald and diamond aigrette mounted with two pear shaped cabochon emeralds on a 19th century diamond leaf motif.  Commissioned in 1913 from Cartier (they must have loved her to bits....)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bluetoria on January 31, 2005, 05:29:43 PM
Quote




 Herself a virtual stranger to Moscow, Grand Duchess Vladimir was jealous of Elizabeth's popularity there. ...It irked her to be excluded from those preliminary conferences at Tsarskoe and she is supposed to have said that 'dearest Ella surely had her hands full already what with her convent and all the paupers in Moscow'. [These comments reached her ears] but 'Elizabeth remained indifferent'. Gossip had long since lost its sting for her.'



Which, more to the point, perfectly sums up both of their characters!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: kmerov on January 31, 2005, 06:56:34 PM
I have read that she was both a friend and competion of MF, and that she didnt have high regards on Alexander III. Does anyone know some more about that?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: otmafan on January 31, 2005, 07:01:36 PM
I always thought the Michen and Minnie were enemies. Michen longed for power in Russia and resented Minnie for having it.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Dennis on January 31, 2005, 08:08:31 PM
No one has answered my pronounciation.

Would it be Miechen = My Kin, My Ken

Miechen = My Chin, My chen

Miechen = Me Kin, Ken

Miechen = Me Chin, Chen

Perhaps no one living has heard the name pronounced as she would have.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: gem_10 on January 31, 2005, 10:39:20 PM
No offence to all those who like Miechen but I don't like her. Sorry.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 03:22:20 AM
Quote
No offence to all those who like Miechen but I don't like her. Sorry.


Neither do I, lunarmaiden, though I'm sure she had many admirable qualities and perhaps there was more to her than the somewhat superficial pose she presented to the world...maybe?
Perhaps if she had read/heard the quotation from Ella (below your posting) she might have been more understanding of Ella's motives.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Johanna on February 01, 2005, 06:37:45 AM
Hello, a newbie here! Actually a longtime lurker.  ;)

Miechen (pronounced probably [meehhen] with a long ee and a slighty harder fricative than an average English h. Have you heard how 'Bach' is pronounced in German?) is great, or at least her jewellery is grand.

I'm awfully curious about where these pictures of Miechen's  jewelry come from... It would make the guessing of the origins of the jewelry easier.

Martyn, GREAT picture of the sapphire kokoshnik. Different than in Munn's book. I'm curious of where it is coming from.

Martyn, I have a slightly different picture of the floral aigrette (waterfall aigrette) with the briolettes. Somebody once send the picture on the Royal Jewels Message Board with the information that it would have been made by Chaumet, not Cartier. Though Cartier would sound more true considering her being a good customer for the King of Jewellers.

Apropos, the little picture of Miechen wearing a very unique sunburst hair ornament with what seems to be one of her large hexagonal emeralds on the center. -There is a nice picture collage of it on Ursulas excellent site Royal Magazin. It must be the only time I've seen a fringe tiara worn this way if it is the fringe tiara:

http://www.royal-magazin.de/russia.htm
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Johanna on February 01, 2005, 07:02:12 AM
Quote
Ileana
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/ellahesse/balkan/PrincessIleana1.jpg)


I think that someone has done a bit of copy/pasting on photo. Not you, Grandduchessella, of course. But look at the large sapphire on the center which is'nt at the center of Ileana's forehead. Also the hair looks like cut below the tiara. How annoying.  

I would love to see at least one large and good picture of Ileana wearing the tiara.  I wonder if there are any? I guess she didn't have that many occasions where to wear it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on February 01, 2005, 07:22:27 AM
GDElla, that sapphire and diamond aigrette is lovely!  I wonder if it did indeed belong to her?  Where did you find this image? The diamond briolette and the emerald bead aigrette were very fashionable at the time that Miechen ordered them.  The emerald and diamond aigrette was I think inspired by the designs of Bakst for the ballet Russes; this style of head ornament became more fashionable that the conventional style of tiara......
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: gem_10 on February 01, 2005, 08:01:32 AM
Quote

Neither do I, lunarmaiden, though I'm sure she had many admirable qualities and perhaps there was more to her than the somewhat superficial pose she presented to the world...maybe?



Yes you have a point there bluetoria. I know she may had admirable qualities but it just happened that Miechen became more and more absorbed by her desire to be the leader of St Petersburg society.
I just don't like her because of the way she had to compete with MF and for not understanding Ella. That's all.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on February 01, 2005, 08:03:10 AM
Great jewels pictures!I am stunned!Yet,she was a great patron of arts and we don't have any colour portrait of her(with maybe wearing those jewels)!I would badly like to see some of her colour portraits!!!  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 08:06:01 AM
Quote


Yes you have a point there bluetoria. I know she may had admirable qualities but it just happened that Miechen became more and more absorbed by her desire to be the leader of St Petersburg society.
I just don't like her because of the way she had to compete with MF and for not understanding Ella. That's all.


;) A kindred spirit! :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Dennis on February 01, 2005, 09:20:32 AM
Actually, Ileana looks very much like a young Ingrid Bergman.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on February 01, 2005, 09:43:19 AM
Quote
Hello, a newbie here! Actually a longtime lurker.  ;)

Miechen (pronounced probably [meehhen] with a long ee and a slighty harder fricative than an average English h. Have you heard how 'Bach' is pronounced in German?) is great, or at least her jewellery is grand.

I'm awfully curious about where these pictures of Miechen's  jewelry come from... It would make the guessing of the origins of the jewelry easier.

Martyn, GREAT picture of the sapphire kokoshnik. Different than in Munn's book. I'm curious of where it is coming from.

Martyn, I have a slightly different picture of the floral aigrette (waterfall aigrette) with the briolettes. Somebody once send the picture on the Royal Jewels Message Board with the information that it would have been made by Chaumet, not Cartier. Though Cartier would sound more true considering her being a good customer for the King of Jewellers.

Apropos, the little picture of Miechen wearing a very unique sunburst hair ornament with what seems to be one of her large hexagonal emeralds on the center. -There is a nice picture collage of it on Ursulas excellent site Royal Magazin. It must be the only time I've seen a fringe tiara worn this way if it is the fringe tiara:

http://www.royal-magazin.de/russia.htm


The diamond briolette aigrette is most definitely by Cartier.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: DOMOVOII on February 01, 2005, 12:01:28 PM
Thr briolette tiara is indeed magnificent, the swinging briolettes must have caught every eye with their fire. And Miechen would wear this and other headpieces,  there is a photo with the tips of the sprays poking through  circular holes cut into a kokoshnik along with other diadems and jewels!! Admittedly this photo is of MP in fancy dress costume, (not the 1903 costume ball (Tiara dated 1908 )  but similarly, 17th century in theme.) Wowee!!

Martyn, do you know of any photo's of these pieces worn, the Emerald aigrette, is stunning, love the upright drops (if that makes sense), but how were they worn, dead centre, set back from the hairline a'la tiara? Round the back decorating a chignon?  Worn at the front it may look like a huge pair of bugs antennae!

            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the role of a Grand Duchess? If you retire from that job, does that make you a better Grand Duchess?
Does one need to be seen to perform good works for them to be good. Ella spent her time administering to the poor, and Miechen organised a wealth of high profile fundraising charity- functions, Bazaars, Parties Cotillions and Balls. (Are these less worthwhile because they are happy, fun occasions despite the monies they raised for charity?)

The voluntary work I do is not done as a benefit to others ie, that is not the reason I do it, I do it because it needs to be done,  it is something I have done for years, which  I enjoy to do, I like the people I deal with and the "good" of it never enters the equation . It doesn't mean I work less hard at it, or have less successes. It certainly doesn't mean that I can look down on people who haven't or don't do things for others. That is conceit.

As Grand Duchesses  I'm sure they both performed their respective duties admirably, only, the holier than thou Ella draws most praise 'cause everyone knew of her obvious efforts.

I can quite understand what MP refers to, with her "the chilly breath" quote, as I am sure I would feel less inclined to have a rip-roaring night out if it was in the presence of a Nun*. Not usually known for their love of excess, and what is a ball if not excess on the grandest scale. (*Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence excepted.)

But then you'll tell me on MP's part this was completely un-altruistic, only to further herself and her reputation.Certainly no benefit to anyone but herself.
I think not.

I myself sometimes wish she had the chutzpah to carry out her threat to Paleologue, and "exterminated" the Empress....we may still have Romanovs on the throne in Russia had that been that case.

If she'd acted in the December of 1916 when Rasputin was killed, and succeeded in putting...GD Dmitri P on the throne, for example-- (the Vladimirovichi plotters thought he would be best received by the country) the March Revolution may not have occured (between NII's arranged "abdication" , the new Emperor's coronation, changes to the government, a responsible ministry etc) and the Bolsheviks though barracking from outside all the while would have had to wait for the next viable opportunity (which with a progressive, strong, monarch, strong leadership of the Armed Forces etc may be years and years....1929??) to take hold in Russia,

You never know.


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on February 01, 2005, 04:44:46 PM
Well, I don't think that Ella was 'holier than thou' (which has a negative connotation). Felix Yussupov, certainly a party-loving fellow, adored her and she didn't seem to throw a wet blanket on him. I think she and Miechen were very different personalities and Ella being a nun doesn't make her a _worse_ GDss than Miechen because Ella chose to work more hands on. They both just had different styles. I don't fault Miechen for hosting parties to raise money but Ella as a nun would take a different path. It's apples and oranges.  I am intrigued by Miechen and think she would've been fun to associate with but I also think that it would only be fun if you didn't challenge her or try to usurp her. If you were content to sit in her shadow, I imagine she was fascinating company.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bluetoria on February 01, 2005, 04:56:53 PM
How could Ella possibly have been holier-than-thou & survived in a world so very far removed from the politesse of the Court? On a daily basis she encountered victims of incest, child-prostitution, alcoholism etc. etc. etc.  A holier-than-thou person could never make any headway in the really harsh world of the backstreets & slums as she did!  The people of Moscow (including many of the revolutionaries) respected her - a cold 'pious' nun wouldn't stand a chance!  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: DOMOVOII on February 01, 2005, 05:47:08 PM
Grandduchess Ella, you are of course right, --apples and oranges.  Suppose you could also add "Horses for courses" Ella was drawn to the Poor and their plight, one to one, Maria used her posistion to support others to do that work. As long as the need was met, everyone won.

And I have to agree, I wouldn't like to have irked her, but to have seen this lady work a room,conversing with the leaders and movers of the beau monde at the height of its elegance, Europe-wide.

Magnificent!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Greg_King on February 01, 2005, 11:45:22 PM
I tend to admire Marie Pavlovna for her style and her sense of her role.  I think Meriel Buchanan expressed it best when she wrote that much of this criticism was simply inspired by the Grand Duchess’s success in her role, and by spite: “It was inevitable that anybody with her vivid personality should have enemies in a society like that of St. Petersburg, and it was perhaps natural that aspersions should have been cast upon both her moral and her public character by censorious busybodies, for she was fearless and of too strong a character ever to be ignored or thrust into the background.  Her vigorous mentality could not but deplore the attitude of the young Empress, but though she took a keen interest in both foreign and international politics, she was never guilty of an anti-Russian intrigue, and never anything but dignified, regal, and gracious in public.”

She seems, at least in the beginning, to have tried to befriend Alexandra.  Countess Marie Kleinmichel, who knew them both, later recalled that the Grand Duchess, on Alexandra's arrival, was "eager to guide all her movements, and took offense when this failed."

Greg King
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Johanna on February 02, 2005, 01:50:04 AM
I'm still confused about the diamond briolette aigrette. I have a picture of it set with pear shaped diamonds, the table facets showing clearly in many stones. Otherwise the ornament looks quite identical.

I guess that the briolette diamonds were dismantled and used in other jewelry and replaced with the more common pear cut stones.

(http://www.goldnet.fi/timanttifoorumi/ForumPics/GDMariaPavlovnaWaterfallAigrettebyChaumet.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: DOMOVOII on February 02, 2005, 11:29:02 AM
Do you have more information about the photo, age, origins?

Could this be a recreation of the famous tiara. If you look there are a couple of other discrepancies, the cushion shaped diamond supporting the upright, and the frame.

I know that the Diamond Fund of the RF have used modern jewellers to manufacture replicas of pieces that were sold off.... there is one of the Ears of Wheat diadem first owned by Maria Feodorovna, wife of Paul I, sold by the Soviet in 1929. In the first instance the tiara had briolette stones, which were later, effected with pave set "grains of wheat" .  (The Briolette cut means that rough/uncut stones needed have to be quite big to begin with, in order to facet the gem in the round. Though I find it difficult to believe they [the new jewellers] wouldn't have had access to some large stones, as they redesigned the central stone of the Wheat Tiara to be a huge yellow diamond, -- initially it had been a 37 ct white sapphire.)

But then again. it could be the same, with the drops changed.

Reading about the jewels that most of the ladies were lucky enough to wear, I am amazed by the versatility and adaptability of them. Most pieces it seems were fitted with hidden loops, catches and pins for using one item in many ways, adding drops, or inserting  posted uprights, maybe joining two or more pieces together,  or unclipping sections to make a different look,  changing it to complement a dress, or owing to the formality of an occasion.

It sounds like good value to me!!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Johanna on February 03, 2005, 02:53:22 AM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, DOMOVOII.

The only info I had was that the tiara was being made by Chaumet which proved to be wrong. The poster also called the ornament 'Waterfall aigrette' but I don't think Cartier has given this or any other name for this ornament.

Yes, I know about those copied tiaras. I think that the basic shape, the sprays, look just too identical to be copied from the original. That's why I thought it might have gone through some mild plundering just like the ruby tiara of Maria Alexandrovna, for example, which lost it's great faceted rubies.

Usually it's the modern cut brilliants that reveal that the ornament is modern make. It is difficult to get hands on enough many old cut stones (cushion cuts and briolettes in particular) of uniform size and quality, to make this large items.

The diamond cutters of today are no help because they are concerned so much about the optical symmetry which make the best light return, brilliance. That's why most of the diamonds are cut into brilliants. Of course these stones are great and real 'performers' but seem to lack the personality of an old cut brilliant not to mension the beautiful fire, dispersion, which is characteristic to quality OC brilliants.

I know just the basics of the brilliant cut but I would think that the cutting of a briolette saves more rough weight than brilliant cut which requires sawing/cleavaging an octahedron crystal into two.

(http://www.timantit.com/EP/CustomerPics/yield.jpg)
Charts of the different cleavagings of a diamond crystal (picture from www.timantit.com. Thank you, Mikko.)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Johanna on February 07, 2005, 03:08:21 AM
Oh, you are most welcome, Joanna. I'm also very fond of the site. Seldom you can see this good pictures of Royal jewelry and among there are some true rarities which can't be found anywhere else. I think Ursula is updating the site relatively often. She is, by the way, a member on this board too.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on February 15, 2005, 01:35:06 PM
Quote
I'm still confused about the diamond briolette aigrette. I have a picture of it set with pear shaped diamonds, the table facets showing clearly in many stones. Otherwise the ornament looks quite identical.

I guess that the briolette diamonds were dismantled and used in other jewelry and replaced with the more common pear cut stones.

(http://www.goldnet.fi/timanttifoorumi/ForumPics/GDMariaPavlovnaWaterfallAigrettebyChaumet.jpg)


I am afraid Johanna that you are confusing two entirely different pieces of jewellery.
The image of the tiara that you have posted is indeed by Chaumet, but is not the tiara that was created for Miechen.  This piece was created for Prinzessin Henckel von Donnersmarck, by Chaumet, in 1904.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/Royalty%202/Jewels/Miechensdiamondbriolettetiara.jpg)

This tiara was created by Cartier for Miechen in 1908.  The similarity in style is remarkable, but Cartier were not above copying or re-interpreting the work of other jewellers to supply their customers' needs.  In the case of Miechen's tiara, the differences are the use of briolettes for the pendant stones and the use of a large round brilliant in place of a cushion-cut at the base of the spray.  To an untrained eye the two pieces are nearly identical.
The Nadelhoffer Cartier book describes this jewel thus;
'Briolette diamond aigrette designed as floral sprays with circular-cut diamond base, the tips suspending briolette-cut diamonds.  Commissioned by Grand Duchess Vladimir in 1908.'
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on February 15, 2005, 01:42:00 PM
Quote


Martyn, do you know of any photo's of these pieces worn, the Emerald aigrette, is stunning, love the upright drops (if that makes sense), but how were they worn, dead centre, set back from the hairline a'la tiara? Round the back decorating a chignon?  Worn at the front it may look like a huge pair of bugs antennae!

quote]
I'm not entirely sure DOMOVOII but I have a feeling that the briolette aigrette was meant to be worn dead centre, with the wire frame set into the hair and back from the hairline - same with the emerald and diamond aigrette.  However the latter is a much more versatile piece of jewellery and could have been moved around the head to suit, I imagine.  It would be marvellous to find an image of her wearing these jewels so that we could see once and for all exactly how they were worn.....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mia on February 17, 2005, 04:52:17 AM
Oh, those two aigrette's... Thanks, Martyn for the info. Nice to no that it is a copy. And what a copy! I guess the copy-right laws weren't that developed at that time.

Since the model is 'a bit' unusual the thought of two entirely separate pieces didn't even cross my mind. But seeing the 'innumerous' circlets with Maltese crosses, I should be more suspicious, not to mention all the kokoshniks and fringe tiaras.  

Also because the stones look more old cut in the Cartier version I thought of course that this was the tiara in the original state.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on February 19, 2005, 02:53:00 PM
Quote
I have her portrait in uniform,bout don't know how to post it!If someone want's I can send it by e-mail!Really,great to see one of her pictures wearing a tiara(don't think about photos)!


I'm always available Marc!  :)  I post so much you know it would get right on.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on February 19, 2005, 08:48:07 PM
Ok,no problem!If you can,write to me(here) your e-mail adress and I will post the picture to you!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on February 20, 2005, 06:24:43 AM
Quote

I'm always available Marc!  :)  I post so much you know it would get right on.  ;)


Hmm, beat me to it! ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on February 23, 2005, 05:47:28 PM
Gdella,I have just seen your message with the mail!I will try to send the portrait of Marie in uniform to you tommorow!Greetings
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on February 24, 2005, 12:47:59 AM
Quote
No one has answered my pronounciation.

Would it be Miechen = My Kin, My Ken

Miechen = My Chin, My chen

Miechen = Me Kin, Ken

Miechen = Me Chin, Chen

Perhaps no one living has heard the name pronounced as she would have.




Miechen is a german diminutive, so the pronunciation would follow german languauge rules.    
therefore --

Miechen = Mee  (sh)en    

the 'ch' in Miechen would be pronounced with a much more gutteral sound than 'sh' requires --- imagine you had something stuck in the very back of your throat; it starts to "tickle", and you start trying to dislodge it.  

but, in some areas, pronouncing Miechen as "Meeshin" would be acceptable.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on February 24, 2005, 06:11:49 AM
GDElla,just sent to you the portrait of Marie on your e-mail you left to me in the message!If and when you get it,please just inform me that you recived it!Thanks
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: hikaru on February 24, 2005, 09:07:55 AM
Maria Pavlovna (Aunt Meekheny) and Vladimir Alexandrovich - they like imperial theater (especially Mariinsky ) very much and they went Mariinsky one time or twice in the week.
The both of us every week met with the Director of Imperial Theaters in order to discuss the further development of opera and ballet.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on February 25, 2005, 09:01:11 PM
In some way you are right! She looks meaner in the face!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Lisa on February 26, 2005, 04:18:51 AM
Thank you Marc!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/lyzotchka1/Marie.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on February 26, 2005, 05:02:05 AM
No problem,any time,Lisa!I am just glad you recived my mail without any problems!Thank you again for posting this portrait!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Lisa on February 26, 2005, 05:06:30 AM
You're welcome, Marc! ;) I only knew it in Black and white, so it's a pleasure to see it in colours! :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on February 27, 2005, 12:03:28 PM
Is there anywhere his portrait?Btw,this portrait in uniform is from Peterhof!I took it last year!That's why it has a little bit of flash!  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on March 13, 2005, 08:09:40 PM
Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/79128722QkUnAs_pha.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/77934657PwYOjK_ph1.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/romanovs/77949741VPnvus_ph1.jpg)

Miechen seems fond of the pearl necklace set she wears here. Are the drops that are attached to the necklace the same ones she uses to drape from her kokoshnik in the one photo? Were they removable or did she have 'extras' to use? Also does anyone know if this was the famous pearl set that was left to one of her children (Helen?)?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 14, 2005, 12:20:04 AM
Quote

Miechen seems fond of the pearl necklace set she wears here. Are the drops that are attached to the necklace the same ones she uses to drape from her kokoshnik in the one photo? Were they removable or did she have 'extras' to use? Also does anyone know if this was the famous pearl set that was left to one of her children (Helen?)?



i'm pretty sure the drops are from the necklace.   i've never understood though, with her entire collection as options, why she would constantly choose a necklace that, while very pretty & valuable,  doesn't lay well (at all) on the lines of her court costume....        it was obviously one of her favorite pieces, though.  


btw,
the images of her in mourning are from THE LAST TSAR (i can't remember the name of the author at the moment...but it's a russian lady; printed in russia, but in the english language.).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2005, 09:55:36 AM
Thanks so much for that. I don't care much for the design of the necklace either but oh! those pearls look nice.

Was the book The Last Tsar about Kyril since it has photos of Miechen? I can't image a N&A book giving her more than a passing reference given their relationship.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on March 14, 2005, 02:16:45 PM
Brnbg,those photos are just great!I love them!Thank you so much!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 16, 2005, 12:43:44 AM
Quote
Thanks so much for that. I don't care much for the design of the necklace either but oh! those pearls look nice.

Was the book The Last Tsar about Kyril since it has photos of Miechen? I can't image a N&A book giving her more than a passing reference given their relationship.


your question got me thinking --- and i realised you were probably right (unless the book was about the Romanov clan, there'd be very little of MP showing-up in a work on N&A).....so, the answer must be that i had gotten my books confused.      

so i checked, and lo-and-behold, the image of MP actually came from a book called ST.PETERSBURG: PORTRAIT OF AN IMPERIAL CITY.

it covers the various strata of st.p life.     the imperial family, aristocratic society, the growing "middle-class", the transplanted peasants & workers; as well as schools, factories, the ballet & other Arts (painting, sculpture, literature, etc).  so......

aneeeeway --   ;)
the image shows MP presiding over a meeting of the directors of the Imperial Academy of Art.   she inherited her position as President, from her late husband, for whom she still wears mourning.


.
.
.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on March 16, 2005, 07:19:51 AM
from Danjel's great site

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/balkans/Tiara11.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/balkans/Picture11.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/balkans/YUG20Princess20Olga1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/balkans/diamond-11.jpg)

It's been referred to as the Boucheron BOUCHERON Daisy Leaves and Flowers Tiara as well as the Princess Abalmalek Tiara. It was inherited by Olga's son Alexander and his wife Barbara has been seen in it. It's a large diamond tiara of a scrollwork design centered with pale yellow diamonds. It was given some extra height by the row of collett diamonds at the base.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on March 16, 2005, 08:11:02 AM
My eyes will get out of my head!This is just fascinating!Those pictures are just great!So,whose tiara was it in the end?I also heard that yellow diamonds are more valuable than white ones...True?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on March 16, 2005, 12:42:46 PM
It was Princess Abamalek's who left it to Paul who gave it to his wife Olga and now it belongs to their son and daughter-in-law. It's the same tiara just referred to by different names.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 16, 2005, 02:56:46 PM
Quote
It was Princess Abamalek's who left it to Paul who gave it to his wife Olga and now it belongs to their son and daughter-in-law. It's the same tiara just referred to by different names.



y'know, gdssella, without having to look it up, i'll trust your instincts & info over mine, any day.    and as i've said before, i really should start verifying my info before i post --- or just post photos.

in this instance, my only defense is that my source was erroneous, it seems.    

in the diana scarisbrick book TIARA, the photo i posted is referred to (on pages 102 & 103) as
THE GRAND DUCHESS VLADIMIR'S TIARA, c.1870  RUSSIAN gold, silver and diamonds -- PRIVATE COLLECTION        she never mentions the princess Paul, but i recognized it from her photos.    

what really frustrates me is that I KNEW what y'all were saying was correct as soon as i read your posts.   i've got both of Goeffrey Munn's books TIARAS: A HISTORY OF SPLENDOUR and the smaller TIARAS: PAST AND PRESENT, as well as the "retrospective/biography" of Chaumet TIMELESS TIARAS, and several other sources that would have confirmed your info & reminded me that i already knew it.    but i didn't check.    i didn't double-check my "facts".     that habit has gotten alot of people into alot of trouble alot of times during the course of history......i should remember that :-[


i know i've said this before, but i'm definately, seriously thinking that
i should probably just stick to photos, & leave their captions to y'all. :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 16, 2005, 03:08:28 PM
in Munn's book TIARAS: PAST AND PRESENT, he mentions (on page 56, in the inset), that the diamond necklace that runs along the bottom of the princess Paul's tiara was a later additon, added by princess Paul.    perhaps (i know it's a long-shot) but perhaps, that necklace came to her from MP through her mother?    and that's where the confusion started?

any thoughts?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on March 16, 2005, 03:26:36 PM
Quote
y'know, gdssella, without having to look it up, i'll trust your instincts & info over mine, any day.    and as i've said before, i really should start verifying my info before i post --- or just post photos.in this instance, my only defense is that my source was erroneous, it seems.    in the diana scarisbrick book TIARA, the photo i posted is referred to (on pages 102 & 103) as THE GRAND DUCHESS VLADIMIR'S TIARA, c.1870  RUSSIAN gold, silver and diamonds -- PRIVATE COLLECTION        she never mentions the princess Paul, but i recognized it from her photos.  what really frustrates me is that I KNEW what y'all were saying was correct as soon as i read your posts.   i've got both of Goeffrey Munn's books TIARAS: A HISTORY OF SPLENDOUR and the smaller TIARAS: PAST AND PRESENT, as well as the  "retrospective/biography" of Chaumet TIMELESS TIARAS, and several other sources that would have confirmed your info & reminded me that i already knew it.    but i didn't check.    i didn't double-check my "facts".     that habit has gotten alot of people into alot of trouble alot of times during the course of history......i should remember that :-[ i know i've said this before, but i'm definately, seriously thinking that
i should probably just stick to photos, & leave their captions to y'all. :)


Don't worry about it--I've had to correct more posts of my own then I'd like to admit.  :-/ (And I"ve had some real howlers!) Though if you keep supplying great photos--I'll be more than glad to take a crack at captions.  :) You have the more difficult job of the 2.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mia on March 17, 2005, 02:07:39 AM
Warning, off-topic. ;)
Quote
I also heard that yellow diamonds are more valuable than white ones...True?


Hi Marc. There are so many but's in gemmology and the pricing of a diamond. But in today's world fancy-coloured stones are in average more valuable than good, white stones with the exception of some yellows which are approximately in the same price level and most of the brownish stones which are below the prices of whites. The brown ones can be called commercially with names like cognac or champagne, it makes them sound more beutiful.

The intensity of the colour in fancy diamonds is very big factor for the price. The more intense the colour the more expensive the stone is. Also the right hue is important. Peachy pink colours for example aren't as expensive than the pure or purplish pink.

But there are many different hues in white diamonds too.  Some are slightly tinted yellowish or brownish perhaps. This lowers quickly the price of the stone. And you have to also take account the clarity, impurities in the diamond and also the quality of cut. And then again, a larger D-colour Flawless diamond is a rarity and therefore very expensive.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: thijs on April 03, 2005, 07:48:59 AM
Does anyone knows by any chance something about her relationship with her (half) brother henry (heinrich of mecklenburg schwerin) who was maried to the Dutch queen Wilhelmina?

It seems so srange to me that I cannot find any info about their contacts.

:)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on April 03, 2005, 09:11:29 AM
Miechen with her sons,Boris and Kirill

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/mpsons1890s.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on April 03, 2005, 09:14:33 AM
Quite an interesting photo as here we can see 2 families: family of GD Pavel (his wife Olga Paley and children) ad the Vladimirovithci

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/vladandpaleysbefore1909-.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on April 03, 2005, 10:54:23 AM
Quote
Does anyone knows by any chance something about her relationship with her (half) brother henry (heinrich of mecklenburg schwerin) who was maried to the Dutch queen Wilhelmina?

It seems so srange to me that I cannot find any info about their contacts.

 :)


I haven't found too much since there aren't books on Henry or Miechen (who definitely deserves a bio IMO) to look up information. I do know that they seem close--maybe not as close as some siblings because there was a large age difference--but not estranged. Vladimir was at Henry's wedding (seen in a photo) but I don't know about Miechen. I would presume she was unless there was something preventing her--it wasn't because of any family difficulty or Vladimir wouldn't be there.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: pablo on April 03, 2005, 07:39:06 PM


   grandduchessella,

 Thanks for the pictures.Who is the man beside Cyril?

 Regards.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on April 03, 2005, 08:32:13 PM
Hi--we have Sveta to thank for the great pictures. Wish I could take credit.  :)  I don't know who the man might be next to Kyril.  ???  He's awfully tall. Could he be one of her Schwerin relatives?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on April 03, 2005, 10:18:11 PM
Quote

    grandduchessella,

  Thanks for the pictures.Who is the man beside Cyril?

  Regards.



isn't it Pavl?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Dmitry2 on May 26, 2005, 11:27:40 PM
The sapphire aigrette on page 2 did not belong to Maria Pavlovna.  It is part of a suite called "the fountain suite" and ther are a pair of earrings as well.  There were part of the Imperial Treasury and, to the best of my knowledge, are still in the Diamond Fund.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on May 27, 2005, 01:37:44 AM
Is there also a picture of Maria P and her half-brother prince Heinrich (consort of Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands).

I heard that his last visit at his sisther was in august 1914 (sic). She is mentioned by Victoria F or by her sisther the Queen of Romenia in a letter, that the "fat brother of aunt Miechen", stayed with his sisther.

It intrests me, because prince Heinrich also met Rasputin at the same time, introduced by Nicholas 11.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Jackswife on July 02, 2005, 08:46:38 AM
 I love this thread! ;D Miechen is one of my favorite Romanov ladies:  she was the ultimate diva and was born to wear jewels like these fabulous creations. She was pushy and demanding, yes, but she was also smart enough to see the handwriting on the wall as the Revolution approached (and she knew *exactly* what the ascendance of Rasputin meant to the Imperial Family as well). She was pretty outspoken and that is a quality I admire. I appreciate these wonderful pictures.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on July 02, 2005, 03:11:53 PM
I don't know how much I would've liked Miechen but she sure is an interesting personality. I wish there was more known about her as so much seems to come from the N&A perspective which, needless to say, wasn't positive. Along with the Constantinovichi I would love to see a bio on her. Thank God for Romanov Autumn which focuses on the lesser knowns.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bruceaddison on July 11, 2005, 01:10:29 PM
Does anyone know the story of Grand Duchess Vladimir's escape from the Bolsheviks? I have read that she left St. Petersburg in 1917 for the Causcus, but did not leave Russia until 1920. The intervening years were apparently frought with danger and hardship, which she is said to have withstood in magnificent style. Does anyone know the details? I also remember reading that a substantial part of her jewelry collection had been left in St. Petersburgh, but was retreived for her by an English admirer who was obliged to dress as a woman to escape detection. I can't locate he source of the story, but I'm almost sure that Grand Duchess Vladimir was the subject. Can anyone confirm?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on July 11, 2005, 08:05:02 PM
I forget where I read it but it's been in a few places. The British gentleman was Bertie Stoppard (sp?) who was in some diplomatic post I believe. He'd known Miechen and she apparently told him where she'd hidden some of her famous jewels. He was able to smuggle them out (I've read of him being dressed as a woman as well) and to give them to her in France. These were the jewels she was able to leave to her 4 children--the collections of pearls, rubies, emeralds and sapphires I believe. She died not too long into exile and had apparently arrived in France quite different in appearance from her ordeal and somewhat broken in spirit. Perhaps someone else can flush out the details as my books are still in 'hurricane storage'.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bruceaddison on July 12, 2005, 09:09:27 AM
Thanks so much. Your reference to her changed looks is certainly born out by the photo posted by Marc on April 8th. I also remember reading that upon her evacuation, with the Bolsheviks at her heels (she was one of the last of the Romanovs to leave Russia), she refused to depart on a ship that would call at Istanbul, lest she be subjected to the indignity of de-lousing. She eventually left on an Italian liner. I also read that, broken in health and spirit, she died soon after arriving in France (I believe she owned a villa there). If anyone knows the details of the 1917-1920 period in her life, I would be most interested. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on July 12, 2005, 09:49:14 AM
I think it was noted later that the one posted on 4/8 was of Queen Olga of Greece. She was also trapped in Russia (being born a Russian Grand Duchess and a frequent visitor home) but managed to eventually make her way to France I believe. The years of tragedy told on her face as well--being a Constantinovichi she must've grieved mightily over the deaths of so many of her nephews and also her cousins. (Not to mention all the Greek upheavals)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bruceaddison on July 12, 2005, 02:59:49 PM
Thanks so much for the wonderful photos. Right you are about the photo of Queen Olga- I missed the correction when I first looked at it. Note the dog in the background of the photo of the Grand Duchess in exile- the black and white French Bulldog. It seems to be the same dog in the photo of the Grand Duchess and her grandchildren at the picnic posted earlier. Thanks again
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Bsquared on July 12, 2005, 08:12:20 PM
I think Michen was the most poisonous member of the Imperial Family- always working against the top people, from Alexander III and Marie to Nicky and Alix.  How could they have trusted her with her widely known remarks that betrayed her lust for their position.  Her sons were worthless members of the Imperial Family as well.  

The example of Michen was taken up by many of the younger members of the imperial family and undermined the position of the Tsar more than anything else.  Who could Nicky and Alix trust in the family? Very few indeed.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on July 13, 2005, 11:01:42 PM
Miechen seemed to be a confident yet beautiful woman but I read she was very vindictive and untrustworthy to the other members of the Imperial family. I was once told when I was during my research with John Kendrick that she tried to set Nicholas up in 1916 in result of getting her son Cyril on the throne. What exactly did she try to do?  Miechen and Alix did not like each other. why not? Why did she try to sabotage Sascha and Minnie? Did OTMAA like their aunt Miechen?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Bsquared on July 14, 2005, 05:02:20 AM
Sasha did not like that Michen refused to convert to Orthodoxy, is spite of being married to a senior Grand Duke.  Also, Sasha and Minnie heard her remarks made after the bad train accident that almost wiped out Sasha, Minnie and their children, saying "we will never have this opportunity again". Minnie and Michen were definitely social rivals as well.

Michen tried to win Alix over at the time of her engagement, being an enthusiastic member of Nicky's family in Coburg.  However, both Michen and Vladimir disliked Queen Victoria, her family, and Britishness, to a point that Alix would surely have been turned off.  Michen's haughty remarks and obvious ambition would have caused Nicky and Alix to keep their distance.

Michen through a ball for Olga and Tatiana when they came of age, but I doubt there were close ties between OTMAA and Michen.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on July 14, 2005, 09:21:06 AM
Oh!! I get it, she wanted to be Empress! She couldn't stand being second place! Why did she and Vladimir hate Queen Victoria and her family?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on July 14, 2005, 02:06:53 PM
Why did Miechen want to be Empress so bad!!! She was already popular in the family! What else more did she want. Can someone tell me why she wanted to win Alix over?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Bsquared on July 14, 2005, 06:22:14 PM
She probably wanted to win Alix over (early on) in order to have real influence with the imperial couple, which she was never able to have. Thwarted in this, she turned on them like a doberman!

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on July 19, 2005, 07:59:25 PM
Regular Girls dream of being Princesses... What Does a Princess dream of being but a Queen or better yet....and Empress???
Now, if you add  ambition, the absolute power to crush your  social rivals and a few drops of  the thought that your own sons have the same right to rule as your nephew, to the recipie... well.. I think you get the idea..... I do not think we can Judge her for doing something that we all might have done if we have the chance..... Who can trhrow the first stone???.

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 19, 2005, 08:34:49 PM
OR, perhaps a princess would dream of being a "regular" girl.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on July 20, 2005, 02:49:08 PM
The Question is why did Miechen and Vladimir hate Queen Victoria and her family? Their daughter-in-law Ducky was the Queen's granddaughter? Did they hate her?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Bsquared on July 21, 2005, 05:08:05 AM
The earlier Romanov's disliked/mistrusted QV and family as QV disliked many Romanovs (excepting Olga of Greece and her mother).  This was softened a bit with Alix and Minnie of Denmark marrying the heirs to both thrones. Affie and Marie's marriage was not a happy one and probably did not improve relations between the two ruling families. Further intermarriages between QVs family and Romanovs brought more cordial relations.  

When Ella and Serge got married, the most overtly anti-British Romanovs were Vladimir and Michen, who objected to Ella's British background. Alix was probably aware of this and resisted Michen's attempts to take her "under her wing" when she first came to Russia.  


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on July 21, 2005, 06:02:23 AM
Interesting!! But what did Vladimir and Miechen think of their daughter-in-law Ducky being a granddaughter of the Queen?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Jackswife on July 21, 2005, 06:04:54 PM
 Not sure about the Ducky situation for sure but given that Vladimir and Miechen both detested Alix (who like Miechen was German, and like Ducky, was a granddaughter of Victoria's) I'm sure there was some animosity. They (V & M) were both very anti-British and anti-Victoria. But Victoria was anti-Romanov so I guess it was tit for tat in the national antipathy battle!  :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on July 21, 2005, 06:43:15 PM
Yes,but we also have to point out that Ducky's mother was a Grand Duchess of Russia who must have had some influence on her children preffering them to marry Germans rather then British royal family(she had to stop the negotiations between the eventual marriage of Missy and George V just because she did not like British royals)!So,when Ducky is conserned we have to think who's influence prevailed,her father's(Alfred-Victoria's son) or her mother's(Marie-daughter of the Russian Emperor) and that could be the key some family relations...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on July 21, 2005, 07:08:29 PM
I think so. Marie seems pretty close to her brothers and took the children to Russia pretty often it seems once they weren't small. Plus anti-Alix antipathy would've given them something to bond over.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Bsquared on July 23, 2005, 06:40:46 AM
An interesting letter from Ducky to Grand Duchess Xenia written shortly after Michen's death: "Also many thanks for your letter after Aunt Miechen's death. That was quite an other kind of grief (than that of the death of Ducky's own mother) and such sufferings and remorse but I miss her also.  I never disliked her as much as she did me...."

It appears that relationship was not great also....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on July 23, 2005, 12:06:11 PM
She probably didn't have a problem with her until she actually was going to become her DIL. I read somewhere that the Vladimirs basically told Kyril to just keep her as a mistress rather than marry her. Ever ambitious, Miechen must've seen the difficulties in promoting Kyril as a viable successor if he married a woman a) divorced (and from the Empress's brother!) b) not Orthodox c) a first cousin. Of course they rallied around Kyril when NII came down on him so hard after he married Ducky but that would've been more for their son's benefit than Ducky's.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Jackswife on July 23, 2005, 02:47:02 PM
 
Miechen was always on the look out for opportunities to advance the Vladimirovichi, that's for certain. I'm not sure she would have thought any woman was good enough to marry any of her sons and she was used to dominating and controlling them so much, that it must have been very hard on her DILs to get along with her, if indeed any of them really did. :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: cimbrio on July 26, 2005, 05:33:08 PM
She took a very long time to turn Orthodox (since she wasn't marrying the direct heir to the Russian throne, there was no immediate necessity for her to convert). She and her husband had five children of which all but the first survived to adulthood, but only Kyrill and his sister Elena contracted equal marriages (he with his first cousin, the daughter of the duke of Edinburgh -the match was seen as illegal for a time but was eventually approved by the tsar himself; Elena married his "cousin" Nicholas of Greece, by whom she ahd three daughters). Aunt Miechen, as the Grand Duchess Vladimir was called within the family, was a conspiring woman who desired the throne for her sons, and indulged them all despite the licentious lives the other two sons (Boris and Andrew) led (gambling in the south of France, expensive restaurants in OParis, not to mention lovers and -eventually in the case with Andrew) a morganatic marriage with a ballet dancer which produced a son (he had no further descendants however). Miechen escaped Russia from the south via Constantinople but died not long after, in 1920. In a nutshell... I hope it helps :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on October 17, 2005, 02:32:45 PM
After MF left St. Petersburg and moved to Kiev, Did Miechen stay in St. Petersburg?
On the same hand, How did she scape from Russia?.. Anyone knows?

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: CountessKate on October 17, 2005, 03:02:20 PM
According to Meriel Buchanan, after Rasputin's death and her petition for forgiveness for Grand Duke Dmitri had been refused curtly, she left St Petersburg where she felt angry and humiliated.  She rented a villa in Kisslovosk (MB's spelling) in the Caucasus, where her son Andrei was recovering from an illness, and went there in March 1917.  After the revolution she was under house arrest, then this was relaxed, and she moved to her son's villa when her own villa's lease ran out in April 1918 (this seems so strange to me - normal life like leases on villas running out while there was chaos all around).  General Schkouro took her into the mountains in September 1918 during the fighting between the white and red armies, though she went back to Kisslovosk after only a few weeks when the fighting died down, but only in the spring of 1919 did she agree to travel over the mountains to the Black Sea where she sailed on a Lloyd Triestiner liner to Cannes.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on October 17, 2005, 03:32:40 PM
I thought she was still around for awhile and subject to some harassment. Wasn't there a situation of her and a letter and the police?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: CountessKate on October 17, 2005, 06:04:17 PM
Quote
I thought she was still around for awhile and subject to some harassment. Wasn't there a situation of her and a letter and the police?


The harrassment happened in Kisslovosk where the local revolutionaries interrogated her about a letter she had written to her son Boris in St Petersburg which had been intercepted, and then they put her under house arrest.  I think Meriel Buchanan is a reasonably reliable source as she was a protege of Ducky's, so would have had quite good information from her, and of course would have known Bertie Stopford who kept Miechen supplied with money and finally managed to get her jewellery to her.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on October 17, 2005, 10:21:15 PM
Thanks for the clarification.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: rita on October 18, 2005, 03:12:24 PM
Is there a book available about Miechen? Do you know books in german about her life?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marlene on October 18, 2005, 03:51:01 PM
Quote
Is there a book available about Miechen? Do you know books in german about her life?



There are no biographies on Miechhen, although she is included in the book  The Grand Duchesses.  Also,  John Wimbles wrote an article (3 parts) in Royalty Digest, some years ago.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on October 18, 2005, 06:20:34 PM
There's also some about her in Charlotte Zeepvatt's Romanov Autumn.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on October 19, 2005, 09:30:39 AM
Such an interesting woman..... Too bad there is not much information about her...  I think she was not as bad as most people think. It would be very interesting to have known what went through her mind in order to understand her character and the motivations of her actions before she could be judge..... I hope one day her diaries come up.. Then we could understand her more....

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: rita on October 19, 2005, 03:18:58 PM
Thank you Marlene, thank you Grandduchessella. I have read a chapter in "Peterhof ist ein Traum" a very interesting book about german princesses in Russia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Jackswife on October 19, 2005, 04:38:03 PM
 There are a few tidbits on her in John Van Der Kiste's book on the Romanovs. It's a shame there isn't an extensive major biography available on her: she's a fascinating if not always likable figure, one of my favorites among European royalty. And her diaries would make for verrrrrrrrrry interesting reading! :o
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on October 19, 2005, 06:07:03 PM
 I bet they will....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: José on January 15, 2006, 02:49:15 PM
I went through this thread and was fascinated by Miechen.
She was indeed a great Lady, and such a pose  :).

A bit careless that remark when the imperial train had the accident, but we all make mistakes don't we ?  ;D

Two questions:

How did she cope with the fact that two of her sons made unequal marriages ?

I have read that Boris was one of Ena's suitors.
Would such marriage be considered equal for succession purposes given the fact that Ena was a morganaut ?

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: SuSu on January 28, 2006, 12:54:27 PM
According to Coryn Hall's Imperial Dancer poor Miechen had quite a come down in her later life.

Although thanks to a great friend she was able to salvage her jewels she was forced to deal with her younger sons morganic affairs. She apparantly referred to their households as "the harems".

That included GD Andrei and Mathilde Kshesinskaya. There was also the paternity of Mathilde's son Vova.

It is so hard to image this fabulous world that she was a part of disintegrating to nothing. And finally achieving what she had wanted all her life, her son Vladimir able to declare himself "Emperor".  How ironic life can be.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: dp5486 on February 09, 2006, 08:14:04 AM
When Maria Pavlovna finally left Russia, she was accompanied by her son Andrei, Mathilde, and their son. Does anyone know if anyone else accompanied them out of Russia? Any loyal ladies-in-waiting?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: SuSu2 on February 11, 2006, 09:00:15 PM
For a long time I have been unable to find good reference for GD Maria Pavlova. The most information I have is from reading Imperial Dancer by Coryn Hall.

In January 1917 realising the desperate situation in Russia and also cognisant of how close her sons were to the throne told Rodzianko that the Empress needed to be "annihilated".

She was advised to leave the capital on the 8th January 1917. She left for Kislovodsk in the Caucaus. GD Cyril went to Arcangel and GD joined his mother.

In the Caucaus she rented the Semeyonov Villa where she was placed under house arrest by the Provisional Government. After her release she remained ther with GD Andrei a few members of staff and some Cossacks.

When the lease on her villa ran out she moved to a room at the villa GD Andrei had rented. It was then that her loyal friend and GD Boris smuggled money and her jewellry from her safe in the Vladimir Palace.

Of Miechen her neice GDss Olga Alexandrovna comments:-

"There had never been much love between Aunt Miechen and my own family....but I felt rather proud of her....When even generals found themselves lucky to find a horse cart and an old nag to bring them to safety, Aunt Miechen made a long journey in her own train. It was battered all right - but it was hers. for the first time in my life it was a pleasure to kiss her."

Shortly after this Miechen and family boarded the Italian liner the Semiramisa. The fares were paid with using one of her valuable brooches.

When the ship reached Venice the Russian Counsul met them and arranged a special train to ferry them to the South of France. GD Andrei accompanied his mother to Cannes.

In July of 1920 Miechen was staying at the Hotel La Souveraine. There she became ill. Her children were sent for. There she died on the 6th September 1920.

After her death, her jewels were divided among her children. GD Boris the emeralds, GD Cyril the pearls, GDAndrei the rubies and GDss Elena the diamonds.

Her life story would make for amazing reading. Does anyone have other books with good reference to her?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on February 12, 2006, 02:43:14 AM
Dear Member,

What would it be a pleasure to read a biography of this great lady.

She had such a strong personality, she was intelligent, ambitous, people loved and hated her at the same time, she was a Grand Dame, special, strange in some matters.

I think that there is so much information about her, that you could easy put a biography together about her of maybe 300 pages.

And I think that soon maybe one of us, will stand up, and write this biography.

Teddy
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 12, 2006, 12:19:21 PM
Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin as a child (Grand Duchess Vladimir of Russia) (http://img488.imageshack.us/my.php?image=marieasachild6kk.jpg)

Michen is my all time favorite snobby Grand Duchess!  :D ;) Theres something winning about her! ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: SuSu2 on February 12, 2006, 08:08:32 PM
I agree Mandie.

I am fascinated by her.

She had many great attributes:-

A solid marraige to GD Vladimir - although she was not able to dominate him.

She lived in fabulous homes, wore beautiful clothes and jewels.

She was very intelligent and surrounded herself with like people. She and GD Vladimir enjoyed a full and interesting social life.

Her family life was important to her. She wanted the best for her sons - even the monarchy.

Her life began to change after GD Vladimir's death in 1909. However she was lucky enough that her immediate family survived the Revolution intact.

Her friend and son made sure her jewels were smuggled out of Russia.  

Unfortunately her two younger sons made choices she was not enthusiastic about but they continued to be a family and surrounded her prior to her death.



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on February 13, 2006, 08:21:14 AM
I agree she definitely needs a bio. Perhaps there isn't a good deal of information that survived?

Whether a person likes her or not (and that's not really a prerequisite for a good bio) it can't be denied that she led and very interesting life. From a relatively unimportant princess (and I'd love to read more about how she tossed over her fiancee for the chance to nab Vladimir) to one of the most powerful members of the Romanov family to her glittering salons to her marriage to her family and their entanglements to her battles with both MF and AF to her dramatic escape--it would all make fascinating reading.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on February 13, 2006, 07:06:55 PM
I agree with both of you and I am sure that this biography would lighten up more things and ''relations'' between the royals...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on February 14, 2006, 01:20:30 AM
Yes, the Vladimirovitchi are worthy to have a bio on them. Sadly that there is no even in Russian a bio on their family. I can count on  fingers good bios on the Romanovs (I don't mean the last Tsar and his family). GD KR is a favourite among the Russian historians. We have books on the Konstantinovitchi, the Nikolayevitchi, GD Alexey Alexandrovitch, GDss Ella, GDss Maria Pavlovna-younger, a short bio on GD Nikolay Mikhailovicth..and that's all...The Mikhailovitchi and the Vladimirovitchi are still waiting for the serious reseachers. :(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Agneschen on February 14, 2006, 08:15:26 AM
Maybe you should give it a go Svetabel dear.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: SuSu on February 14, 2006, 09:44:20 AM
Yes please Svetabel.

May I also take this opportunity to reserve a copy?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Tsarfan on February 14, 2006, 12:47:08 PM
Quote
Of Miechen her neice GDss Olga Alexandrovna comments:-

"There had never been much love between Aunt Miechen and my own family....but I felt rather proud of her....When even generals found themselves lucky to find a horse cart and an old nag to bring them to safety, Aunt Miechen made a long journey in her own train. It was battered all right - but it was hers. for the first time in my life it was a pleasure to kiss her."


Miechen might have been more an ambitious, charming manipulator than a kind or likeable person, but she stands in her attitudes and behavior as the beacon toward which the later Romanovs would have done well to steer.

Russians have always seemed drawn to larger-than-life monarchs.  No Edward-the-Confessor or Saint-Louis types for them.  Their most successful rulers were those of outsized appetites or outrageous behaviors:  Peter I, who tore Russia lose from its oriental moorings and faced her westward; Elizabeth, who built and spent on a gargantuan scale to create the stage for all subsequent Romanov grandeur; Catherine II, who conspired to seize a throne rather than submit to ignominy or see Russia become toady to Prussian interests; Ivan Grozny who, though ending in insanity, grew Romanov lands at a faster pace than almost any other ruler; even Alexander III who, though reactionary, put his stamp on Russia and consequently regenerated a grudging respect for the monarchy and its power.

Among the many reasons for Nicholas' failure as tsar were his desires for domesticity and a bourgeois lifestyle, his mystical fatalism, his instinct to avoid rancor and conflict, his inability to subordinate concerns of the hearth to concerns of the state.

Can you imagine a Nicholas possessed of Miechen's spirit tolerating a wife who alienated the key social and administrative talents of tsarist Russia?  Thinking he could avert war with a few solicitous telegrams to Wilhelm II?  Letting his wife and a muzhik put forward wartime ministerial appointments?  Skulking off to Stavka instead of staying in St. Petersburg to deal with wartime supply crises?  Accepting abdication passively?  Ordering his train to Pskov instead of risking a full-bore run to St. Petersburg?  Waiting to find out what the revolutionary government intended to do with him and his family?

Was Miechen nice?  Apparently not very.

Were her ambition untoward and her methods unsavory?  Woe to the Romanovs for not having more of both.


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: SuSu2 on February 14, 2006, 09:25:57 PM
Of Miechen her neice GDss Olga Alexandrovna comments:-

"There had never been much love between Aunt Miechen and my own family....but I felt rather proud of her....When even generals found themselves lucky to find a horse cart and an old nag to bring them to safety, Aunt Miechen made a long journey in her own train. It was battered all right - but it was hers. for the first time in my life it was a pleasure to kiss her."

This comment by GDss Olga has left me intrigued. Has anyone read of any recorded "incidents" between Miechen and her sister-in-law the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna? I would love to know if there were any family fights between these two strong willed women. Both were alike at many levels. Can you just imagine those two in a shouting match...done most tastefully of course. No fur, diamonds or pearls harmed.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on February 15, 2006, 12:34:35 AM
Quote
This comment by GDss Olga has left me intrigued. Has anyone read of any recorded "incidents" between Miechen and her sister-in-law the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna? I would love to know if there were any family fights between these two strong willed women. Both were alike at many levels. Can you just imagine those two in a shouting match...done most tastefully of course. No fur, diamonds or pearls harmed.

There were the family fights but they were not shouting ones. Two women were polite with each other in public, though sometimes MF of Miechen made non-compliment remarks behind each other backs. F.e once at some court ball MF said rather loudly about Miechen: "She has a red face...One may think she drinks hard". Of course in a minute that remark spread all over the room. :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: SuSu on February 15, 2006, 11:12:41 AM
Please does anyone know how friendly was Miechen with Zenaide Yussopov.

Although Zenaide was not a part of the IF she was one of the social icons of her time.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on February 16, 2006, 12:17:28 AM
Quote
Please does anyone know how friendly was Miechen with Zenaide Yussopov.

Although Zenaide was not a part of the IF she was one of the social icons of her time.  


As I read Zenaida was a close friend of MF not Miechen.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on February 16, 2006, 12:19:42 AM
Quote
Maybe you should give it a go Svetabel dear.  ;)


Oh, I wish I could! :) :(. My dearest dream is a free time for serious searching in the State Archives...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: frimousse on March 06, 2006, 07:49:34 AM
Quote
I forget where I read it but it's been in a few places. The British gentleman was Bertie Stoppard (sp?) who was in some diplomatic post I believe. He'd known Miechen and she apparently told him where she'd hidden some of her famous jewels. He was able to smuggle them out (I've read of him being dressed as a woman as well) and to give them to her in France. These were the jewels she was able to leave to her 4 children--the collections of pearls, rubies, emeralds and sapphires I believe. She died not too long into exile and had apparently arrived in France quite different in appearance from her ordeal and somewhat broken in spirit. Perhaps someone else can flush out the details as my books are still in 'hurricane storage'.


Before going to Kislovodsk, Grand Duchess Wladimir lived in Anapa ( on the Black Sea) with her sons Boris and André, Princess Tioura Galitzine, prince Petia Mechtchersky and other faithful persons as princess Tumanov or comtesse de Toulouse Lautrec.

Grand Duchess W left for Kislovodsk in february 1919 where she remained almost one year with André.

Zina and Mathilde ( or Mala as she was called by her lover André) lived at the Metropole Hotel in Anapa, and were not received by the Grand Duchess so the Grand Duchess's sons didn't meet their ladies in their mother's presence to avoid scandal and misrespect.
Boris left Anapa for France in april 1919 through  Sebastopol and Constantinople on a romanian boat and married Zinaida Rashevskaia only in july 1919  in Italy, because he was expelled by Clemenceau one month after his arrival in France. Zina was beautiful and distinguished though from little nobility: her father was a colonel, dead in Port Arthur in 1904 during the russo-japonese war. He left memories, published in russian. The Rashevsky family has been into military nobility since 1679. The marriage was morganatic and childless. They lived in the Chateau Sans Souci near Paris in Meudon a happy and wealthy life, as Boris had managed to keep savings out of Russia. He spent most of his life  helping his brother André and Mala (they married in 1921) who were pennyless...he was also much more wealthy than GD Cyrille who on the contrary lived very modestly... Zina was created princess Rashevskaïa by GD Cyrille only in 1935. She was a friend of Coco Chanel and a mundane beauty of the twenties and thirties in Paris Cannes, and Biarritz. As a beautiful young woman she was disliked by some other women of the family. Boris and Zina inherited pearls and emeralds. They were very close to GD André and Mala and Vova, to prince André Alexandrovitch and his wife Elsa, to GD Sandro and son Théodore ( or Fiodor), and to GD Anastasia Mikhailovna, and above all  to GD Dimitri Pavlovitch. They use to live a glamourous social life which was not the case of other members of the family, except for Irina and Felix.

Boris was the nearest to his mother and she gave him more jewels. She died in 1920 soon after André and she left Caucasus for France. She is buried in Contréxeville France.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bell_the_cat on March 06, 2006, 12:21:46 PM
Quote

Before going to Kislovodsk, Grand Duchess Wladimir lived in Anapa ( on the Black Sea) with her sons Boris and André, Princess Tioura Galitzine, prince Petia Mechtchersky and other faithful persons as princess Tumanov or comtesse de Toulouse Lautrec.



Was this the mother of the painter? However did she end up in Anapa?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: dp5486 on March 06, 2006, 12:31:59 PM
That is very interesting... I always thought the regal Miechen had to have a few loyal ladies-in-waiting by her side. I would also be interested to know more about these ladies and if they accompanied Miechen out of Russia.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: dp5486 on March 07, 2006, 07:45:42 PM
You're very welcome. I agree with many on this thread that the formidable Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna needs a biography.

I have never heard of Grand Duke Boris's diary being published. Where did you come across it?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: frimousse on March 07, 2006, 07:58:37 PM
Quote

Was this the mother of the painter? However did she end up in Anapa?


To continue with the escape of GDss Wladimir:
on november 3rd 1918 (or october 21st old style) she was in Touapsé ( or Tuapse) on the Black Sea.
She travelled to Anapa the day after on the boat "Typhoon".
In Anapa, a nice resort before the Revolution, she rented the house of officer Krioukov, an old acquaintance of GD Boris from the Military School.
At home she had a few domesticity: Domna the cook (from a nearby village) Sanka first maid and Liola Popova 2nd maid with her husband, plus Fiodorov a servant from Tzarkoie-Selo who joined them afterwards with MP's dog whose name was "Spot".
Princess Tioura ( E.P.) Galitzine was devoted to the GDss and asked the permission to shelter a few weeks before their departure to Kislovodsk her sister Aglaé ( or Aglaïa in Russian) Pavlovna Schidlovskaïa.
GDss followed the advices of English General Pool and ex-Russian plenipotentiary minister to Persia Etter to escape to Kislovodsk the last days of february. A few days before, her personnal guard (10 cossaks !), given by the local commander was dismissed and danger was growing. She left with her son André and other people on the boat "Maria" via Novorossisk.
GD Boris stayed in Anapa untill wednesday april 2 1919
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: dp5486 on March 07, 2006, 08:06:26 PM
Even more interesting! Was Princess Galitzine with Miechen when she left Russia?

On previous threads you can see two pictures of Miechen with a black and white French bulldog. This must be "Spot"!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on March 08, 2006, 06:53:08 PM
Quote
I have never heard of Grand Duke Boris's diary being published. Where did you come across it?



i'm curious about that, as well....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 16, 2006, 09:24:26 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/1903.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/mp4.jpg)

Maria P. (does anyone has a bigger picture of the last pic of MP?)



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: frimousse on March 17, 2006, 09:38:19 PM
Quote

Was this the mother of the painter? However did she end up in Anapa?



She was not the mother of the painter Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec (1864-1901) who was from a very far parenthood...
The counts de Toulouse-Lautrec are a big family (9 different branches) running from middle ages.

From one of them, after the French Revolution count Pierre de Toulouse-Lautrec  (born in 1769) escaped in the Russian Empire, who gave generous hospitality to French aristocracy.

He married the Polish countess Serafine de Matusczawicz , and they had children. Among them:      Alexandre Petrovich de TL 1807-1881
and count general maior in the Russian Army Valérien de TL 1811-1881 who married baroness Marie Ivanovna de Staël-Holstein: They had one daugther Olga Valerianovna 1862-1933 who married prince Nicolas Obolensky, and other children.

Alexandre Petrovitch married Maria Babanina and they had 5 sons and one daughter:
George Alexandrovich 1835-
Alexandre Alexandrovich 1836-1894 who married Emma de Baum and had one son Alexandre and one daughter.
Pierre Alexandrovich 1837-
Valérien Alexandrovich 1840-1917 general in the Russian army
Sérafine who married Count R. Montecucolli.

So this countess was surely the wife of one of the sons of these numerous Toulouse-Lautrec.  At least, one of them was fighting in the south of Russia with the  White Army.

As to the flight to Anapa, near Kertsch, read also the book "Imperial Dancer" from Coryne Hall about that episode.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: dp5486 on March 26, 2006, 06:48:12 PM
I'm a little confused. In Maurice Paleologue's memoirs he states that he threw a going away party for Miechen's departure to Kislovodsk in February/March 1917. Where was she between this time and Nov. 1918 when she was on her way to Anapa and later Kislovodsk?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: frimousse on March 26, 2006, 07:47:07 PM
OK I was not very clear : ;) She was first in Kislovodsk ( from february 1917 if I am not wrong) and was under arrest by Kerensky's government in her villa. When the Bolsheviks seized the area she escaped to Anapa, and after a few months came back to Kislovodsk (one year) when the town was again under the Whites...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: dp5486 on March 27, 2006, 09:21:56 AM
Thank you! I thought I remembered her being in Kislovodsk after leaving Petrograd.

Have you heard mention of Mlle. Oliv or General Knorring, both on the staff of Marie Pavlovna? (They are both mentioned by Paleologue in his memoirs.)

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: julia.montague on March 28, 2006, 07:23:04 AM
Quote
No one has answered my pronounciation.

Would it be Miechen = My Kin, My Ken

Miechen = My Chin, My chen

Miechen = Me Kin, Ken

Miechen = Me Chin, Chen

Perhaps no one living has heard the name pronounced as she would have.
None of these. I think the nickname is German. The ch sound is different, not like the english ch and not like k
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on March 28, 2006, 08:25:16 AM
Mie would probably be pronunced like 'Mee'. When there's a case of 'ie' it's pronounced with the 'ee' sound and when 'ei' has the 'eye' pronunciation. (At least I'm hoping my college German isn't too rusty here  :) ). The 'chen' is harder to explain. I looked this up on a German pronunciation site:

2. "Ch" following "e", "i", "ä", "ö", "ü", the diphthongs "eu" or "äu" and the consonants "l", "n" or "r".
Whereas "ch" in the previous instance was a sound formed in the back of the mouth, this is one formed in the front of the mouth. Imagine saying the English words "humour" or "humane", but breathe with the tip of the tongue touching the back of the lower front teeth.

"Ch" is a German sound which causes English speakers severe problems as it does not occur naturally in the English language, and varies in sound depending on its position in the word and the sound which precedes it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: dp5486 on March 28, 2006, 08:22:27 PM
Is it known how many pieces of jewelry Bertie Stopford took with him out of Russia and were later divided up between Miechen's four children?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Jackswife on April 05, 2006, 04:44:42 PM
Miechen was able to take some jewels with her when she first left St. Petersburg. IIRC Stopford was able to get all of the pieces she had left behind (not sure of the exact number but it must have been pretty substantial, as Miechen had a fabulous collection). As far as the division after she died,  it was by gemstone: emeralds to Boris, pearls to Kyril, rubies to Andrei, diamonds to Elena. (I've heard it said Boris was her favorite but :-/). From the examples I've seen of her jewels probably only Minnie surpassed her in quantity and quality of jewels.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on April 06, 2006, 10:10:17 AM
This is up for auction right now and if you have a spare $700,000-1,000,000 it can be yours.  :)

By Boris Mikhailovich Kustodiev


(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/romanov/4LT48-smaller-N08182-41-11w.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on September 10, 2006, 11:41:45 AM
Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder by unknown artist

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/mpgd.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on December 24, 2006, 06:38:32 AM
I heard that Grand Duchess Vladimir, (Grand Duchess Maria P. Sr. or aunt Michen) also has written diaries during their lifetime.

Does someone knows more about this?


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 24, 2006, 08:20:39 AM
Good question Teddy! They would be interesting -  she was quite a character. Am I right in thinking she disliked Alix? Where would I be able to read about her escape from Russia?  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: aussiechick12 on December 25, 2006, 05:51:33 PM
You are quite right Eddie! Minchen also disliked Marie Feodorovna and then when Alix became Tsarevna, she did not like her either.

On the topic of diaries, I haven't heard about them before, perhaps someone else has! It would be interesting to know.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eddie_uk on December 26, 2006, 04:44:41 AM
Thank you aussichick! :) She doesn't appear to have liked many! I believe her escape from Russia was quite an adventure, must have been awful for her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on December 28, 2006, 02:35:08 PM
Grand Duchess Vladimirs very prolonged escape must indeed been harrowing....but she was luckier than most...her ewls were spirited out by Bertie Stopford....so she was far from penniless & all  3 of her sons escaped with their families..I think that was much the lesser of the two evils...Her dignity during her flight is also very commendable.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on December 28, 2006, 07:48:35 PM
I think Flight of the Romanovs gives a good account of her escape from Russia but it's been awhile since I've looked at it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Sarushka on December 28, 2006, 09:58:00 PM
Her dignity during her flight is also very commendable.
GD Olga Aleksandrovna also commented on her aunt's tremendous dignity in her memoirs. I think Olga A acquired a new respect for GD Vladimir after hearing the story of her escape from Russia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on January 05, 2007, 02:56:53 PM
I have also been wonder about her dairies (If any) were written or destroyud. Maybe some day we will learn what her motivations were  and will understand more this remarkable woman,,
Arturo
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Linnea on January 06, 2007, 03:39:02 PM
The Demmler-Verlag wanted to publish a book on the relationship between the houses of Mecklenburg (as we know Marie was a born Duchess of Mecklenburg-Schwerin) and Romanov in September 2006, which maybe could also have helped the enlighten the case of Marie Pavlovna´s diaries, but sadly the publication of this book was postponed to an unknown date. ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: M. le Comte de Boir on January 19, 2007, 10:27:24 AM
You are quite right Eddie! Minchen also disliked Marie Feodorovna and then when Alix became Tsarevna, she did not like her either.

On the topic of diaries, I haven't heard about them before, perhaps someone else has! It would be interesting to know.

She hated Alix but she and The Dowager Empress Marie had a more complex relationship. It was more competitive and less dislike, though at times they were court rivals they were often rather pleasent to one another, even openly friendly at times. Especially once Minnie and Miechen both decided that Alix was harming the empire. It's very hard to find stuff on Miechen though. I would LOVE to read her diaries. I know Minnie's diaries were published in Russia (in Russian) a while back, I wonder if Miechen's are.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on January 19, 2007, 02:35:58 PM
Marie F. dislked Miechen, Maries F. disliked Alix
Marie P. disled Marie F, Marie P. disled Alix
Alix disliked Marie F, Alix disliked Marie P.

Hmm, everybody seems to dislike eachother.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on January 21, 2007, 06:48:22 AM
Marie F. dislked Miechen, Maries F. disliked Alix
Marie P. disled Marie F, Marie P. disled Alix
Alix disliked Marie F, Alix disliked Marie P.

Hmm, everybody seems to dislike eachother.

Nothing special. As in every large family with ambitious women. :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Jackswife on February 04, 2007, 06:52:08 AM
I think with Miechen and Minnie , it was more a case of "friendly" rivalry rather than actual dislike. Both Marie P and Marie knew well how the royal game was played and I think in their different ways, they played that game very well. For Alix Miechen had nothing but contempt and disgust and she blamed Alix for the downfall of the Romanovs. Miechen is my most favorite of the Romanov family outside of N& A and their children and I would really love to read her diaries. I keep hoping she will get her own full-length comprehensive biography. 8)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 04, 2007, 01:13:13 PM
Hi Jackswife,

I think you're right about Minnie and Meichen.  They were friendly rivals.

I've seen a picture of them riding together in a coach or landau and Minnie is sheltering Meichen and herself with an umbrella (parasol) from the sun.  I thought that looked nice.

Larry
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: James1941 on February 05, 2007, 10:01:09 PM
I will disagree. In public they played the game and made a show of being cordial to one another, but there is ample evidence from those who were there that in private both women had nothing but scathing remarks for one another.
In the case of Marie Feodorovna and Alexandra it may have been a case of the old green eyed monster, jealousy.
Marie Pavlovna did her job supremely well and got the deserved complements for it. The dowager empress did hers well also but Alexandra was no match for the grand duchess. And the grand duchess had nothing but contempt for Alexandra's failure to do her job as empress. She remarked "One ought to know how to do one's job." It left no doubts as to whom she was making reference. As Foreign Minister Sazonov, who was one of Nicholas II's best ministers, said" She's the one we should have had as empress!" I can agree with him.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on February 06, 2007, 02:57:11 PM
I agree, even in public they said things about each other. There is an anecdote about a time when MF and GD Vladimir where in a social gathering and MF said about  MP - -"She has a red face, one could think she drinks hard"- - Obviously, it didn't take long for the comment to go all the way around the place and get to MP's ears. They were both social rivals and they did not attacked each other directly, but they did attacked each other.
There was another ocassion when MF knew that MP used to have tea parties at the Marinsky whenever MF was out of St. Petersburg. MF told Nicholas, who got also mad about it but he did not do anything about it. One time MF returned to St. Petersburg without letting MP about it.  and it is said MP was very surprised when she saw two tables set instead of one. MP never held another Tea party there.

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on February 06, 2007, 09:51:12 PM
There wasn't anything friendly about it and the conflict help to widen the rift between AIII and GD Vladimir as well.

'So there was a perceptible crack in the relationship between the brothers, and when Marie joined in the crack became a chasm.' MF was the only other young woman in the immediate family of AII since MA had married. MF was 'well established and popular  and she did not like Germans' and MP took great pride in her country and heritage. 'Before longthe two young women, the second and third women in the country, were beginning to be seen as rivals.' The rivalry was held in check during AII's lifetime but things worsened considerably during AIII's reign. 'Without open dissent...the uncomfortable relationship between the second couple in Russia and the first soon became obvious. Ultimately the rift would contribute to the dynasty's fall...' Upon the family surviving the Borki train wreck, AIII is supposed to have commented on how 'disappointed' Vladimir would be. In various, serious disagreements, MF and MP 'egged their husbands on'.

After 10 years, MP still felt isolated--and while she seemingly enjoyed the opposition and return it, there was a 'hint' that her isolation hurt. This was in the betrayal she felt when Ella, another Lutheran in the staunchly Orthodox family, converted.

As AIII's sons grew and married, the Vladimirs would lose more and more prestige and rank. 'Unless...Marie Feodorovna was a possessive mother who would not enjoy sharing her sons' when they married. If MP could 'draw' Nicholas's future wife 'into her own circle, guiding her first steps in Russian society she might one day give the words 'behind the Empress' a whole new meaning.'
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: kmerov on February 07, 2007, 10:48:10 AM
In the first years it seems that they actually got along quite well, eventhough Miechen was very pro-german.
From Alix to MF in 1874, "Im glad that you like your sister in-law Miechen, but I'm a bit jaloux, since it seems you spending so much time together!"
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 07, 2007, 11:36:01 AM
What was the story with Olga meeting Marie after her escape? Apparently Olga siad that for the first time it was a pleasure to embrace her aunt and was proud of her. Where did they meet? Why was Olga impressed?

Thank you :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: James1941 on February 07, 2007, 06:40:23 PM
From  The Last Grand Duchess    by Ian Vorres.
Olga, Nicholas Kulikovsky, their two sons, and Mimka (the maid), after a harrowing journey across the Caucasus, arrived destitute in Novorossiysk, on the Black Sea coast. They found shelter in the Danish Consulate. A British cruiser, HMS Cardiff, came into port with the express task of checking out rumors that the tsar's sister was in the town. Rear Admiral Sir George Hope, whose flagship was the Cardiff, gave the family some badly needed provisions and cloth. He also made arrangements for evacuation aboard a merchant ship.
Just before leaving, Olga heard that her Aunt Michen had arrived after an equally harrowing escape.
   "I went to see her. I was amazed to learn that she had reached the town in her own train, manned by her own staff, and still had her ladies with her. For all the dangers and privations, she still appeared every inch a Grand Duchess. There had never been much love between Aunt Miechen and my own family, but I felt rather proud of her. Disregarding peril and hardship, she stubbornly kept to all the trimmings of by-gone splendor and glory. And somehow she carried it off. When even generals found themselves lucky to find a horse cart and an old nag to bring them to safety, Aunt Miechen made a long journey in her own train. It was battered all right--but it was hers. For the first time in my life I found it a pleasure to kiss her..."
February, 1919.
Just as Marie Pavlovna had said, "One ought to know how to do one's job."
I don't think the two ever met again. Marie Pavlovna died the following year.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on February 07, 2007, 07:08:00 PM
That is one of the things I admire about MP. For her, rank was everything; as same as she always knew what to wear for every ocassion, she was always aware of her position as a Grand Duchess and she would never have allowed herself anything else..

 I agree.....She definitely knew how to do her job....

Arturo Vega Llausás
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 08, 2007, 08:21:58 AM
Fantastic ;D Thank you James! Going in to exile in her own train, accompained by her ladies and servants! Good for her!! ;D She must have managed to take a lot of her belongings with her? Where did she die? Must have been a stressful experience.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: kmerov on February 08, 2007, 09:59:10 AM
She died on the 6. September 1920 in France. She was the last Romanov to leave Russia and the first to die in exile.
I believe she managed to take some of her Jewels with her into exile.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: lori_c on February 08, 2007, 10:20:17 AM
She did.  She sent them out with somebody else, I can't remember his name.  Somebody help?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on February 08, 2007, 10:40:55 AM
Albert 'Bertie' Stopfard who smuggled out a large number of her jewels from the Vladimir Palace--at a great risk to himself. Otherwise, Marie wouldn't have had much to leave to her children. Stopford was a British Foreign Office courier who'd known MP for several years.

According to Romanov Autumn, Boris and Andrew were both arrested and spared from being shot only because a 'friendly local official securied their escape and advised them to get away into the moutains.' Even still, despite going to Anapa, MP was determined, much like the Dowager Empress, to not leave Russia--even as danger mounted. A British General arrived in December 1918 (after the Imperial family had been murdered) with an offer from the British govt to take her to safety in Europe but she refused. In March 1919 a British cruiser dropped anchor and sent two officers ashore to fetch Marie but she again refused. Boris, no fool, took the offer and left with his mistress--much to the anger of his mother. In May, Marie and Andrew even decided to return to the Caucuses but the area was lost and the two again fled. In Novorossisk was where GDss Olga encountered her. She last barely 6 mos in exile before dying. Perhaps her life might have been prolonged had she left, in more comfort than she eventually did, when the offer was first extended but who knows. Certainly it would've saved her months of food shortages and other privations that took its toll on her health.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: lori_c on February 08, 2007, 11:45:49 AM
Thank you GDella.  That's the one.  I couldn't think of his name. :)

Also, thank you for the rest.  I had never known the complete story.  The only thing I read was that when she FINALLY arrived to be w/GD Kirill and his family, the GD didn't recognize her.  Her hair had turned white, she had lost alot of weight and completely aged.  Then again, who woudln't have after what she went through? ???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: James1941 on February 08, 2007, 02:18:37 PM
Bertie Stopford was a close friend of Felix Yusupov. They became acquainted while at Cambridge (or was it Oxford) and Bertie became part of Yusupov's set. Yusupov kept a well furnished room and he and his friends gathered there to enjoy the good life. When Yusupov quit the university and went to London, Stopford became part of the Yusupov "fast set."
After the war his career was ruined when he was caught in an illegal act with a young Guardsman in a London hotel.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on February 10, 2007, 05:32:03 AM
Bertie Stopford was a close friend of Felix Yusupov. They became acquainted while at Cambridge (or was it Oxford) and Bertie became part of Yusupov's set. Yusupov kept a well furnished room and he and his friends gathered there to enjoy the good life. When Yusupov quit the university and went to London, Stopford became part of the Yusupov "fast set."
After the war his career was ruined when he was caught in an illegal act with a young Guardsman in a London hotel.
Bertie Stopford seems to have been a enigmatic character & the revolution (whivh he wrote about in anonymously published diaries) his finest hour.He was a younger son of a Irish grandee the Earl of Courtown & twice married ( the second time after his imprisonment for the guardsman affair)..he carried out of Russia jewels for many people including Marie de Reteurn, Prince Serge Obolenskys mother..
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on February 10, 2007, 05:51:03 PM
I thought it was once mentioned that William Clarke (who wrote Lost Fortune of the Tsars) was working on a book on Bertie Stopford but I don't think anything ever came of it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: lori_c on February 12, 2007, 06:50:01 PM
Bertie Stopford was a close friend of Felix Yusupov. They became acquainted while at Cambridge (or was it Oxford) and Bertie became part of Yusupov's set. Yusupov kept a well furnished room and he and his friends gathered there to enjoy the good life.

It was prudent of Yussopov to keep his place in London as he and Irina were accorded asylum into the country opposed to other Romanov exiles who were denied entry into England.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on February 12, 2007, 06:56:17 PM
they did both got it?. I thought he was denied asylum for he was a declared murderer...

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on June 26, 2007, 04:38:41 PM



so, here:[/size]
(this is a smaller version.  the original wouldn't fit.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/vladimircrt-drss23small.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on June 26, 2007, 07:05:38 PM
The detail on that dress is excellent!

Thank you Brian for posting it. I wish such gowns were still made today.  :-\
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 28, 2007, 02:28:10 AM
Michen Looked like a battleship !  :o
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on June 28, 2007, 04:42:12 PM



hahahahaha    LOL   ;-D




Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: gogm on June 29, 2007, 01:12:34 AM
Some bettleships looked downright regal. Miechen is certainly regal in this picture!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 02, 2007, 08:24:49 PM
A formidable woman...I don't think anybody want to go into the ring aginst her.  :o
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 03, 2007, 12:59:22 PM
I agree, there’s something wonderful and powerful about her. But she was a one snobby lady! She was pretty in her youth, but later on-- wolff. I suppose the five kids had something to do with it! Lol
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 03, 2007, 07:59:52 PM
And the Slav blood too. She boosted to her husband that she had more than he did.  ;D

I only knew one who dared oppose the battleship, Helene's British nanny for her children...Kate Fox.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 06, 2007, 07:41:13 AM
Yeah, and poor Helen had to fire Foxy because Miechen told Helen if she didn't get rid of Foxy, she'll (Miechen) will refused to ever speak to her only daughter and would cut her off completely, like what Willy of Germany did (but worse and had done) to his sister Sophie of Greece, whom is also Helen's sister-in-law.

Do you thing Helen was jealous of her sister-in-laws Sophie and Marie because their husbands were ether King or closer in line to the throne then her own Husband Nicky?
But I doubt throw title wise, Helen (along with her Mother-in-law Queen Olga) were Romanov Grand Duchesses, granddaughters of Tsars; styled HIH from birth! So I guess not too much jealousy.

I heard that Marie Bonaparte disliked Helen a lot but was stunned by Helen’s dark beauty.

Alice was bossed around by Helen, but they were friends. One of my friends is very bossy (and younger then I) and can be nasty at times, but I still like her. Maybe that how Alice felt about Helen, like the way I feel about my friend. Plus my friend is Russian too like Helen! Lol

I wonder how Helen felt about Christo’s first wife Nancy (Anastasia, I LOVE that name! :D ;D) Leeds?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2007, 09:15:14 PM
Michen was actually jealous of the closeness that Helene developed with Foxy. It was a friendship that trendsended the employer/employee relationship. Charlotte Zeepvat told me that in her reseaech for her nanny book, she found out that they were as close as sisters. Evidence that Helene was not the stuck up bitch that some authors tried to portray.  >:(

Helene and Alice did reconcil in their later years. One of the bone of contentment is an unspoken competition between them to secure good husbands for their daughters. Helene won the first round with Olga marrying first, but it was Alice's brood who won in grandslam in 1931.  ::) They became such good friends that when Helene passed way, Alice was livid that Freddy failed to notify her of her friend's passing.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on July 25, 2007, 11:22:07 AM


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/royals/_.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: gem_10 on July 25, 2007, 08:43:33 PM
Thanks for the larger version, Sveta. Who is the artist of the portrait?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on July 31, 2007, 01:24:51 PM
Thanks for the larger version, Sveta. Who is the artist of the portrait?

The artist is unkhown, the date is the end of the 1870s.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 09, 2007, 06:58:06 PM
.
click on image for larger version

Mariia Pavlovna & Zenaida Dmitriovna Skobeleff comtesse de Beauharnais
(wife of prince Evgen Maksimilianovich Romanovsky de Beauharnais the duke of Leuchtenburg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marpavzenbeau.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marpavzenbeau.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marpavzenbeau3.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marpavzenbeau3.jpg)

.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on August 10, 2007, 02:48:44 AM
Thanks ! It is lovely !!!  :-*

Is it the same lady that Anna Anderson stayed with at the Leautenberg estate ?  ???

The lady is the famous beauty Zenaida de Beauharnais, nee Skobeleva, spouse of Prince Evgeniy Leuchtenberg-Romanovskiy. She was a lover of GD Alexey Alexandrovitch, their liason was one of the most scandalous in the high society.

In our modern standarts she doesn't look like a beauty but seemed she had somewhat a sexual charm as many contemporaries admitted.
Zenaida died in 1899.

Brian, thanks for the picture! :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 13, 2007, 07:43:16 PM

.

click on image for larger version

duchess Marie and her fiancée,
grand duke Vladimir Aleksandrovich


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marievladimir.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marievladimir.jpg)

grand duchess Marie Pavlovna in fancy dress

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marie4.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marie4.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 13, 2007, 09:45:07 PM
.

click on image for larger version

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marieprofile.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/marieprofile.jpg)

.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 13, 2007, 10:49:36 PM
love that fab choker !  :o
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 14, 2007, 05:22:52 AM
love that fab choker !  :o

by Cartier
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/choker.jpg)


.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Victor on August 14, 2007, 05:26:31 PM
The large hexagonal emerald in the GDs' headdress in the previous picture was aquired by the Chicago tycoon Harold McCormick for his first wife,who was J.D.Rockefellers' daughter Edith.The gem,with other emeralds that had belonged to the GDss,was mounted for her{Edith} as a sautoir.After her death the stones were unmounted and sold by the executors of her will to Cartier for $480,000.The Woolworths heiress Barbara Hutton purchased them for a reported $1,200,000.That was in 1936 or '37.At the time Hutton was the Countess Haugwitz-Reventlow.Initially she comsssioned Cartier in London to create a ring,a pair of earrings and a necklace with the largest emerald{the hexagonal},weighing 100cts,set at the centre.In 1947,by now the wife of Prince Troubetzkoy{a russian title},she had Lucien Lachassange of Cartier design for her a wonderful tiara ,that could also be worn as a necklace, in the Oriental style,using the same emeralds.In 1965 she sold the beautiful green stones to Van Cleef & Arpels.The Welsh actor Richard Burton bought them for his wife Elizabeth Taylor.Taylor owns them still.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 14, 2007, 07:59:49 PM
It seems the emeralds did not bring happiness to its owners.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 14, 2007, 08:08:33 PM
The large hexagonal emerald in the GDs' headdress in the previous picture was aquired by the Chicago tycoon Harold McCormick for his first wife,who was J.D.Rockefellers' daughter Edith.The gem,with other emeralds that had belonged to the GDss,was mounted for her{Edith} as a sautoir.After her death the stones were unmounted and sold by the executors of her will to Cartier for $480,000.The Woolworths heiress Barbara Hutton purchased them for a reported $1,200,000.That was in 1936 or '37.At the time Hutton was the Countess Haugwitz-Reventlow.Initially she comsssioned Cartier in London to create a ring,a pair of earrings and a necklace with the largest emerald{the hexagonal},weighing 100cts,set at the centre.In 1947,by now the wife of Prince Troubetzkoy{a russian title},she had Lucien Lachassange of Cartier design for her a wonderful tiara ,that could also be worn as a necklace, in the Oriental style,using the same emeralds.In 1965 she sold the beautiful green stones to Van Cleef & Arpels.The Welsh actor Richard Burton bought them for his wife Elizabeth Taylor.Taylor owns them still.


click on image for larger version
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/emeralds2.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/emeralds2.jpg)

a possible addendum:
(to promote "Poor Little Rich Girl: The Barbara Hutton Story", which aired in 1987, Vanity Fair published a bio & movie review with some beautiful fotos the min-series' star, Farrah Fawcett "in character" & wearing some of the jewelry worn in the "film" (all of which was real, btw, supplied by Harry Winston & Cartiér) and i believe this is where i got this from...    i apologize if i've gotten all this messed-up or completely wrong :P )


i seem to remember that when she acquired some sort of a title in Tangier or Morocco or something like that (either it came with the palace she bought, or she bought it seperately (and just for herself, not her husband.....and i'm not sure which one it was at the time) ),
aneeeeway -- she wanted a "crown" to go with her title & that's when she had the tiara/necklace designed & made.
that was when she posed for the, now famous, portrait....and, i believe, the location was her Moroccan palace.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 14, 2007, 08:10:16 PM
I didn't see Liz wore the big emerald plack, did she still has that ?  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Victor on August 14, 2007, 09:20:16 PM
Elizabeth Taylor defiinitly still owns the emeralds.I last saw her wearing them[I mean a picture of her wearing them of course] last year.She also owns the earrings Barbara Hutton has on in the photo posted by Brnbg-wonderful pictures of the emeralds over the generations brnbg,thanks for showing them.Anymore?Hutton did have the tiara made at the time she aquired her palace in Tangier.She outbid Generalissimo Franco of Spain to gain the place.It is a tall whitewashed structure with crenelated stone walls rising above the steep and narrow street rue Ben Raisul,next to the Kasbah.Hutton entertained lavishly and loved giving parties on the rooftop terrace.She was also incredibly benevelant and became popular with the locals.Tourist guides would take tours past the palace saying"And this is Sidi Hosni,The Palace of Her Serene Highness Barbara Hutton,the Queen of the Medina"Perhaps this is the title you are refering to.It was only a piece of make-belive by the locals.Hutton had several titles over her lifetime;Princes Mdivani[made up]Countess Reventlow[real]Princess Troubetskoy[real]Mrs.Cary Grant,Baroness von Cramm[real but the marriage was unconsumated].her last title was purchased for$50,000 for her final husband who became Prince Vinh Na Champassak.Laotian title.The Palace of Sidi Hosni stands eerily empty today.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 14, 2007, 10:26:50 PM
her last title was purchased for$50,000 for her final husband who became Prince Vinh Na Champassak.Laotian title.The Palace of Sidi Hosni stands eerily empty today.


thaaat's what it was! okay, my apologies for getting the info mixed (and wrong :P )   so, i guess the tiara wasn't to "celebrate" the title and it did include / was for her husband.   

like i've said before:
my memory is self-cleaning.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 15, 2007, 02:26:43 AM
I think after Liz kicks the bucket, it will be back into the auction pool.  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Victor on August 15, 2007, 02:42:48 AM
Probably,though Elizabeth Taylor has left most of her jewels to her children,particularly her daughter,but I expect they will put a lot of it on the market.Pity really because it will break up one of the great jewel collections of the day.The auction will be an international cause celeb.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 15, 2007, 04:03:10 AM
Probably,though Elizabeth Taylor has left most of her jewels to her children,particularly her daughter,but I expect they will put a lot of it on the market.Pity really because it will break up one of the great jewel collections of the day.The auction will be an international cause celeb.


the Taylor emeralds
i'm not sure if this two different sets of stones,
or if it's same stones reset.    it sort-of looks like
the same stones in different a setting.
i also have no clue which one is most recent.

anyone know?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/tayloremeralds2z.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/tayloremeralds01_b2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 15, 2007, 05:20:01 AM
As I suspect the large emerald plack (the main one on Barbera's tiara) is not there...I haven't seen her wore that ???  ???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Victor on August 15, 2007, 06:42:23 AM
The upper photo with black background is the necklace belonging to Elizabeth Taylor,previously Barbara Hutton and once GDss Vladimir.Taylor had the largest stone cut from 100cts to 87cts.Why I couldn't say,simply her taste I suppose.I rather think it looked better in its hexagonal form.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on August 15, 2007, 08:24:02 AM
The large hexagonal emerald in the GDs' headdress in the previous picture was aquired by the Chicago tycoon Harold McCormick for his first wife,who was J.D.Rockefellers' daughter Edith.The gem,with other emeralds that had belonged to the GDss,was mounted for her{Edith} as a sautoir.After her death the stones were unmounted and sold by the executors of her will to Cartier for $480,000.The Woolworths heiress Barbara Hutton purchased them for a reported $1,200,000.That was in 1936 or '37.At the time Hutton was the Countess Haugwitz-Reventlow.Initially she comsssioned Cartier in London to create a ring,a pair of earrings and a necklace with the largest emerald{the hexagonal},weighing 100cts,set at the centre.In 1947,by now the wife of Prince Troubetzkoy{a russian title},she had Lucien Lachassange of Cartier design for her a wonderful tiara ,that could also be worn as a necklace, in the Oriental style,using the same emeralds.In 1965 she sold the beautiful green stones to Van Cleef & Arpels.The Welsh actor Richard Burton bought them for his wife Elizabeth Taylor.Taylor owns them still.
Burton bought only some of the emeralds.....the seven stones from the didam/necklace were dispersed into various settings....and the fabled Bulgari emerald gems owned by Dame Elizabeth does not & never did have a emerald as big as 89 carats..
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on August 15, 2007, 12:42:13 PM
I remember seing one of the hexagonal emeralds in the Star of the East diamond when it belonged to Evalyn Walsh McLean. Her whole jewelry colection was bought by Harry Winston after her death and he remounted the diamond without the emerald when he sold it.

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 15, 2007, 06:53:04 PM
.

speaking of the grand duchess Vladimir's emeralds, here are two more...

this aigrette, w/ two large emerald cobochon drops & diamonds,
was designed by Cartiér Paris for the grand duchess (i can't recall the date, however).

click on image for larger version

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/vladimir_aigrette1-b.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/vladimir_aigrette1-b.jpg)

 sort of looks like antennae, doesn't it?  :-P

.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Victor on August 16, 2007, 05:19:53 AM
Ashdean ,thanks for the correction and how remiss of me not to use Dame Elizabeths' title.The pendant part of the necklace could be worn as a brooch and I beleve it featured in the Burton/Taylor film The V.I.P.s-or maybe it was a copy.Brnbg, thanks for the beatiful picture of the GDss aigrette from Cartier.I think it looks particularly elegant and can imagine it being worn proudly at on of the entertainments at the Vladimir Palace.Is it still intact?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 16, 2007, 05:26:40 AM
Don't know...It was from the Cartier jewel book based on the photo record of the jewels. The emeralds were sold after her death and I suspect not with the Taylor bunch... ???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: TampaBay on August 16, 2007, 08:47:11 PM
Probably,though Elizabeth Taylor has left most of her jewels to her children,particularly her daughter,but I expect they will put a lot of it on the market.Pity really because it will break up one of the great jewel collections of the day.The auction will be an international cause celeb.

DAUGHTER(s), Liz has two!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Victor on August 17, 2007, 02:59:30 AM
Two daughters,of course.Tend to think they might keep some sentimental pieces and sell the rest.Wonder who will end up with the GDss Vladimirs' emeralds or the Duchess of Windsors brooch?Perhaps the Prince of Wales will purchase it for the Duchess of Cornwall.There might be a certain poetic justice in the piece returning to the royal family.Might be concidered slightly poor taste if the Queen Mother was still alive but time changes things.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on September 05, 2007, 05:50:04 AM
Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder in 1911 - Grand Dinner in her palace.

(http://www.picatom.com/9/%20%20%20%20-12-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/9/%20%20%20%20-12.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on September 05, 2007, 09:34:53 AM
I do not know if it's the uniform or the white thing between her arm and her body, but she looks so heavy (and she has a double chin).  maybe it is just the angle.
What was the dinner's ocassion?

Arturo Vega-Llausás
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on September 05, 2007, 12:49:23 PM
I do not know if it's the uniform or the white thing between her arm and her body, but she looks so heavy (and she has a double chin).  maybe it is just the angle.
What was the dinner's ocassion?

Arturo Vega-Llausás

But Grand Duchess was really a stout heavy lady :). The dinner took place in the Ballroom of the palace in honour of the Life-Guard Dragoon's Regiment as Maria Pavlovna had been the Chief of this Regiment since 1909.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on December 15, 2007, 02:01:40 PM
GDss Maria Pavlovna posing for her portrait

(http://www.picatom.com/c/mpposing-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/c/mpposing-1.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: anitchkov on December 29, 2007, 11:25:30 PM
She died in France, but where was she buried? 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on December 30, 2007, 12:47:16 PM
She's buried in a Mausoleum in the cemetary at Contrexéville where she died. Boris is buried with her--I don't know about his wife.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on December 30, 2007, 03:27:30 PM
She's buried in a Mausoleum in the cemetary at Contrexéville where she died. Boris is buried with her--I don't know about his wife.

I think Zenaida, his wife, is buried near him, that was her last wish.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: russianlover76 on January 05, 2008, 10:07:29 PM
IS there a wedding picture of grand duchess Marie Vladimir?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on January 05, 2008, 10:51:42 PM
Probably only a sketch somewhere since there were very few photographs of Romanov brides--Grand Duchess Constantine (Mavra) being an exception--at least before the 20th century when you could find ones of such brides as Marie Pavlovna Jr and Grand Duchess Helen. 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on March 03, 2008, 09:32:14 AM
The  Hair ornament GD Vladimir is wearing in this picture seems very similar to her Famous "Vladimir Tiara" although the "ornament" looks smaller. Could it be the same she just had it shortened it? or they are two different jewells?

Does anyone know?

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2579220330094285158rnSSBp


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on March 04, 2008, 12:28:08 AM
The  Hair ornament GD Vladimir is wearing in this picture seems very similar to her Famous "Vladimir Tiara" although the "ornament" looks smaller. Could it be the same she just had it shortened it? or they are two different jewells?

Does anyone know?

http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2579220330094285158rnSSBp




They are two different tiaras.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on March 04, 2008, 09:50:09 AM
All the diamonds went to her daugther after GD Vladimir's death. The Vladimir tiara was bought by Queen Mary. Does anyone know what happened to this tiara?.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Luc on June 29, 2008, 01:13:54 PM
Does anyone have maybe a detailed picture of Miechen and Elena at the coronation of Nicholas II in 1896 ?  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on June 29, 2008, 09:32:11 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/anasmarpages1w.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Luc on July 01, 2008, 12:39:50 PM


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/03_1.jpg)


Is the first picture maybe the photo of Miechen and Elena at the coronation ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 14, 2008, 06:26:55 PM
I wonder if Miechen got along with her son-in-law, Prince Nicholas? or what did he thought of his mother in law?

I have his memoirs.. somewhere... but can anyone get quick info?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 15, 2008, 12:34:42 PM
She liked him personally, but hate the fact he was only a younger son of the King of Greece. The money and prestiege issue was never far from her culculated mind. I was told that actually her deallings were more economic than political (making deals left and right). She would make as good ceo today, Even Putin would have been impressed...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 18, 2008, 03:24:23 AM
Pin:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Romanov%20Jewel/miechenxt21.jpg)

Tiara:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Romanov%20Jewel/rusaoriginalze21.jpg)

Egret:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Romanov%20Jewel/aigretteee51.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: mitia on December 08, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
Well, I feel I have to add that GD Vladimir also managed to bring back from Russia her last pied french bulldog, who survived her and was adopted by her son Andrei who, in his turn, also had other frenchies in his life. Though I am not 100 % sure, I think that the name of this pied frenchie that MP the elder brought back from Russia into France, was Spot, a rather common name for a dog in those days. Maybe our dear AG Bear can confirm this ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 12, 2009, 02:24:48 AM
Miechen and children:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/miechen/MiechenwithKyrillandBoris18791.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/miechen/Miechenwithchildren1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 12, 2009, 10:46:37 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/miechen/2512736517_da12033983_o1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 13, 2009, 09:49:17 AM
Wonderful Miechen!

(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7456/gdmarie2hp1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on January 13, 2009, 12:55:15 PM
Wonderful Miechen seemed look pretty only in the photos. Many contemporaries said that GDss Maria Pavlovan-elder (Miechen, if a Romanov was describing her) was a corpulent lady who often looked ill and too fat for her age. GDss Xenia A. in her letter to a friend told how flabby Miechen tried to pose elegantly on horseback: that was funny and somewhat shockingly...At the same time Miehen's husband didn't care about his spouse's weight and adored her in any state.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2009, 02:08:41 PM
I don't think of Miechen as fat, more fleshy I think. "Fat Mary" (Duchess of Teck) and Isabel II are more into the fat catagory.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on January 13, 2009, 02:21:26 PM
I don't think of Miechen as fat, more fleshy I think.

You don't think but some those who knew her personally did think.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2009, 02:27:00 PM
As long as her husband did not complain, Miechen could do as she wanted. There are aways fault finding people around. QV said of Alix of Denmark "As flat as a board", while others describe Missy of Romania's hair as "yellow" rather than golden...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on January 13, 2009, 09:04:47 PM
Miechen

(http://www.museocanonica.it/var/museicivici/storage/images/musei/museo_pietro_canonica/percorsi/appartamento_privato/studio/granduchessa_maria_poulovna_di_russia_nata_granduchessa_di_macklemburg/42882-1-ita-IT/granduchessa_maria_poulovna_di_russia_nata_granduchessa_di_macklemburg_sqlarge.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on January 14, 2009, 12:54:08 AM
Wonderful Miechen seemed look pretty only in the photos. Many contemporaries said that GDss Maria Pavlovan-elder (Miechen, if a Romanov was describing her) was a corpulent lady who often looked ill and too fat for her age. GDss Xenia A. in her letter to a friend told how flabby Miechen tried to pose elegantly on horseback: that was funny and somewhat shockingly...At the same time Miehen's husband didn't care about his spouse's weight and adored her in any state.

Looking over some of Miechen photos I do see that her weight seemed to vary at times. Perhaps she had struggled with her weight throughout her life? She seemed a little fuller before her marriage in one photo and again seems heavy after she has children then in another she looks slim.

 

She really had problems with her weight throughout her life. Seemed there was an endocrine disbalance and actually she very often looked somehwat ill - the spiteful critics around her of course didn't understand that the problems were real and considered Miechen's simulating when she went to Europe for cure heaps of time. In fact her problems were genetic as her brothers of the venter had disblance in health too - especially GD Friedrich Franz III of Mecklenbourg-Schwerin.

In spite of her bad health Maria Pavlovna  did look pretty in her photos -  mother-nature didn't give her physical strentgh but graced photogenic features.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on January 14, 2009, 12:04:02 PM

 
[/quote]

She really had problems with her weight throughout her life. Seemed there was an endocrine disbalance and actually she very often looked somehwat ill - the spiteful critics around her of course didn't understand that the problems were real and considered Miechen's simulating when she went to Europe for cure heaps of time. In fact her problems were genetic as her brothers of the venter had disblance in health too - especially GD Friedrich Franz III of Mecklenbourg-Schwerin.

In spite of her bad health Maria Pavlovna  did look pretty in her photos -  mother-nature didn't give her physical strentgh but graced photogenic features.
[/quote]

She really does come off as a very handsome woman in some of her pictures even photographs taken in later life, she appears very 'royal'. She knew how to present herself in manner where you knew she was royalty. Thanks for the info about the endocrine. Never heard of that before.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on January 17, 2009, 03:05:25 PM
"One ought to know how to do ones job" <GD Maria Pavlovna the elder>

I think this summarizes all.. She knew who she was, her place in society and what it was expected of her.....

Arturo Vega-Llausás

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Terence on January 17, 2009, 06:39:09 PM
"One ought to know how to do ones job" <GD Maria Pavlovna the elder>

I think this summarizes all.. She knew who she was, her place in society and what it was expected of her.....

Arturo Vega-Llausás

I understand what is said here, but for discussion's sake I thought of posting the other side of the coin here.  I'm not that familiar w/ the details, just going by what I've read here...wasn't part of Miechen's "job" to support the monarchy and extended Romanov family?  It seems she conspired to advance her own line, established a rival court practically and undermined the reigning Emperor and Empress?  Or is that exaggerating the case?

Wondering,
T
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on January 18, 2009, 03:11:00 AM
"One ought to know how to do ones job" <GD Maria Pavlovna the elder>

I think this summarizes all.. She knew who she was, her place in society and what it was expected of her.....

Arturo Vega-Llausás

I understand what is said here, but for discussion's sake I thought of posting the other side of the coin here.  I'm not that familiar w/ the details, just going by what I've read here...wasn't part of Miechen's "job" to support the monarchy and extended Romanov family?  It seems she conspired to advance her own line, established a rival court practically and undermined the reigning Emperor and Empress?  Or is that exaggerating the case?

Wondering,
T

No exaggerating as GDss Maria P. was an ambitious woman who hated to be background. She really established a rival court and with zest tried to be the first lady of the Empire - that's a fact all contemporaries admitted. You are right that a part of her "job" was to support and glorify the Romanov monarchy - actually she just glorified but not supported. In other words she supported only her course and her vain ambitions.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on January 30, 2009, 10:52:01 AM
"One ought to know how to do ones job" <GD Maria Pavlovna the elder>

I think this summarizes all.. She knew who she was, her place in society and what it was expected of her.....

Arturo Vega-Llausás

I understand what is said here, but for discussion's sake I thought of posting the other side of the coin here.  I'm not that familiar w/ the details, just going by what I've read here...wasn't part of Miechen's "job" to support the monarchy and extended Romanov family?  It seems she conspired to advance her own line, established a rival court practically and undermined the reigning Emperor and Empress?  Or is that exaggerating the case?

Wondering,
T

I wonder what would have happened if Michen would have been successfull in be throwing Nichols II? She was as Regal and Elegant as  the Dowager Empress but I believe Michen was much more involved in Politics. Who knows?, maybe the Romanov would still be ruling Russia...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on February 01, 2009, 06:16:50 AM
Which brother is this?

Friedrich Franz III, GD of Mecklenbourg-Schwerin. GDss Maria Pavlovna was very close to her siblings.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Vecchiolarry on February 01, 2009, 10:29:57 PM
Hi,

Is Friedrich Franz III the one that Anastasia Michaelovna married?  I keep getting all these German Grand Dukes mixed up;
especially the ones with the same or similar names.

Larry
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on February 01, 2009, 11:33:03 PM
.


notice she's wearing one of the Cartier aigrettes
.
.
.

.
click on the images for larger version
.

the aigrette:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/th_miechen_cartier_WaterfallAig.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/miechen_cartier_WaterfallAig.jpg)
.
.
.
she's also wearing it in this well-known foto:
(it's sticking through the holes in her headdress.)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/th_miechen_1903.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/miechen_1903.jpg)


.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on February 02, 2009, 12:27:26 AM
.

duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin and her brother, grand duke Friedrich Franz III.

here's another from the same set of them in costume as Fanny & Bligny, respectively, for a family theatrical.

click on image for larger version

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/th_fannyandbligny1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/fannyandbligny1.jpg)


.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on February 02, 2009, 01:14:38 AM


Is Friedrich Franz III the one that Anastasia Michaelovna married?  I keep getting all these German Grand Dukes mixed up;
especially the ones with the same or similar names.



Yes, he was married to GDss Anastasia Mikhailovna, thanks to his sister GDss Maria Pavlovna.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on March 08, 2009, 11:43:26 AM
Does anyone know what kind of relation did Michen have with Queen Olga of Greece...we know that she is from Konstantinovichi branch and was rather close and loved by a main branch(maybe as sister in law to Maria Fyodorovna) who didn't have a great relation with Michen-whose daughter married Olga's son....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 08, 2009, 04:20:17 PM
I think Queen Olga got on well with Miechen. She was more with "the family" than someone like Alicky. She look on the IF as a whole. When her grandson Dimitri murdered Rasputin, Queen Olga put her name to a petition to Nicholas II for clemency, in direct opposition to the empress.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on March 08, 2009, 09:19:14 PM
Well,Olga as a Queen and aunt of Emperor was always in the "first row" of Imperial family in some gatherings,often with Imperial couple...was Michen as the "grandest lady" of Imperial Russia ever jealous because of that?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Terence on March 09, 2009, 01:43:55 AM
Well,Olga as a Queen and aunt of Emperor was always in the "first row" of Imperial family in some gatherings,often with Imperial couple...was Michen as the "grandest lady" of Imperial Russia ever jealous because of that?

Interesting point Marc.  We tend to view these people as historical abstractions, it's very hard to view them as just like our family.  People w/ real feelings, jealousy or irritation over trivial matters.

Of course Queen Olga would petition for Dimitri, he's her grandson.

How much of "position" and real close family feelings influenced these people?  It's hard to get a true feel from much of what is written.  That's often so distorted and forgets these are real human beings, whose emotions motivated their actions just like ours.

An interesting scholarly examination would be to look at Miechen and how she related to the rest of the IF.  What where her actions when she realized her immediate family had a chance at the throne?  At one point in her younger years that was unlikely.  As we look back, it must have become more possible...one of her own would become the Emperor of the largest Empire in the world.

Did any of the family regret undermining Nicholas and Alexandra after the fall?  Or did they simply blame them?

Sorry, maybe fodder for a new thread.

T



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 09, 2009, 04:43:59 AM
I think Queen Olga got on well with Miechen. She was more with "the family" than someone like Alicky. She look on the IF as a whole. When her grandson Dimitri murdered Rasputin, Queen Olga put her name to a petition to Nicholas II for clemency, in direct opposition to the empress.

Terrence is quite correct: of course she would sign this; he was her grandson!! Elisabeth Mavrikievna also did so, and yet there people in the same room who were cautioning one another to be wary of her as she would "tell everything to the Empress." Olga had a good relationship with Alexander III and wife, for obvious reasons; I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that she got on well with Miechen, who was disliked by a lot of people, Maria Feodorovna first and foremost. "Family" feeling didn't enter into it; not in Alexander III's reign, and not in Nicholas II's. I do not think that the conventional and moralistic Queen Olga is likely to have find many points in common at all with Vladimir's free-wheeling entourage. In addition, Miechen made it plain that she did not consider Olga's son a grand enough match for her daughter Ellen, and this is hardly likely to have increased the goodwill between them.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on March 09, 2009, 07:20:30 AM
Yes,she didn't consider him good enough not because he is Olga's son,but because he was neither the heir to the throne nor rich...but anyway,that would be the reason to dislike her...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 09, 2009, 12:13:25 PM
I don't think Queen Olga disliked Miechen as there was no evidence of it as I can see. When Ellen married Nicholas, Olga was like a mother to her and the two had a great relationship.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 09, 2009, 05:47:07 PM
I don't think Queen Olga disliked Miechen as there was no evidence of it as I can see. When Ellen married Nicholas, Olga was like a mother to her and the two had a great relationship.

Quite a lot of people pitied Ellen for her upbringing and refused to visit her parents perceived sins upon her; a good example of this is Maria Feodorovna who described her as "a sweet little thing" and yet thought her arrogant and dificult: a common judgement.
I obviously do not agree that Olga's ability to forge a good relationship with the daughter was a sign of any regard for the mother; but more to the point what I take issue with is this notion you seem to have that the Romanovs were some sort of happy family who sat toasting muffins at the fireside together until that evil witch Alexandra Feodorovna came along and spoiled the party.  :P
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Bsquared on March 09, 2009, 08:17:40 PM
Queen Olga has a strong relationship with Nicky and Alix, who clearly liked her back. Even after the Revolution, Queen Olga dropped an Easter Egg off for Alix with their guards.  Per Baroness Buxhoeveden, Alix was very kind to Queen Olga's mother. Alix was likely influenced by the high opinion Queen Victoria had of both Grand Duchess Alexandra and Queen Olga. Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna wrote that only Xenia, herself, and Queen Olga made a true effort to befriend and welcome Alix into the Imperial Family.

Grand Duke Constantine (KR) disliked Miechen, and it would not have been surprising if Olga felt the same way. 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on March 10, 2009, 08:46:45 AM
I don't think Queen Olga disliked Miechen as there was no evidence of it as I can see. When Ellen married Nicholas, Olga was like a mother to her and the two had a great relationship.

Quite a lot of people pitied Ellen for her upbringing and refused to visit her parents perceived sins upon her; a good example of this is Maria Feodorovna who described her as "a sweet little thing" and yet thought her arrogant and dificult: a common judgement.
I obviously do not agree that Olga's ability to forge a good relationship with the daughter was a sign of any regard for the mother; but more to the point what I take issue with is this notion you seem to have that the Romanovs were some sort of happy family who sat toasting muffins at the fireside together until that evil witch Alexandra Feodorovna came along and spoiled the party.  :P

I think it was in Romanov Autumn (though I'm sure it's in countless other books as well) where the impression was given that cracks within the family were inevitable. They were first held together (despite the varying personalities and temperaments as well as the contempt for AII's extramarital relationship) but their love and respect for their father Alexander II, then by the respect that was accorded their brother as Tsar--though the fissures were widening by then. For a 'mere' nephew the cracks widened to a point where there were open ruptures within the family and various factions.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 10, 2009, 11:20:44 AM
Yes. But Alexander III was still able to keep the occational family dinners in place and kept the family in check (by the sheer power of his personality), after Nicholas II, it became rarer and rarer. Alexandra 's dislike of her husband's family did not help to bring it togather. She was guility in isolating themselves from the family, the court and lastly the country...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 10, 2009, 01:13:31 PM
Yes. But Alexander III was still able to keep the occational family dinners in place and kept the family in check (by the sheer power of his personality), after Nicholas II, it became rarer and rarer. Alexandra 's dislike of her husband's family did not help to bring it togather. She was guility in isolating themselves from the family, the court and lastly the country...

Which members of his family did she dislike? - they enjoyed perfectly cordial relations with KR (whose relationship with the core imperial family was somehow able to survive Alexander III's treatment of his father, who was certainly NOT invited to any regular dinners, any more than Nikolai Nikolaevich senior was) and Mavra, with Alexandra Iosifovna, with Queen Olga, with Serge, with even Vladimir most of the time; not to mention Olga, Xenia and Sandro, Nikolasha, Petia, Militsa and Stana, most pre-eminent among relatives in the early years of the reign.

Your view that the multiple inter-personal difficulties in a large, quarelsome and chronically under-employed family are all due to Alexandra is extremely one-sided, and owes too much to contemporary memoirs.

The issue of isolation from the country is of course quite a different one: do you believe Alexander III was in touch with it?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 10, 2009, 05:01:27 PM
Alicky did not have a good relationshipship with Miechen at all. When the elder woman tried to guide the young empress, she was rebuffed. Miechen did hold this as a grude against Alicky (especially she did not like her English background). For Xenia, Alicky moved further away as she produced more sons, while she could only produced only daughters. Even Greek Minny felt Alicky was jealous when she talked with her husband of their happy days in Fredenborg. The Black pearls (Montenegran Princesses), their feud with Alicky due to Rasputin was too well known.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on March 10, 2009, 05:23:09 PM
Even Greek Minny felt Alicky was jealous when she talked with her husband of their happy days in Fredenborg.

I beg you pardon!!! Then you must tell the people the whole story what the Grand Duchess Maria told in her memoirres "A Romanov Diary". You picks a little, itsy-bitsy-tiny peace of the whole story of her about the Empress Alexandra. Greek Minny was very positive about her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 10, 2009, 05:55:34 PM
How so ? Greek Minny only said she was a good mother and wife, did not mention her relationship with other Romanovs. There was another incident that Greek Minny accidently went announced to the IF. The Emperor and the children gave them a warm welcome, while the Empress ignored them as if they did not exist.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Bsquared on March 10, 2009, 07:50:52 PM
Eric- you are overly biased against Alix and you completely lack any objectivity where she is concerned.

As far as Miechen was concerned, Alix would not have been encouraged to be overly friendly with her in the early days of her marriage.  AIII, Minnie, and their family were completely wary of Miechen well before Alix was on the scene. One gets the impression that Miechen made her presence felt at the time of N and A's engagement. Nicky occasionally stood up to Vladimir, (notably after an incedent at the Maryinsky theater) but it was usually blamed on Alix's influence.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on March 10, 2009, 11:44:43 PM
Alicky did not have a good relationshipship with Miechen at all. When the elder woman tried to guide the young empress, she was rebuffed. Miechen did hold this as a grude against Alicky (especially she did not like her English background). For Xenia, Alicky moved further away as she produced more sons, while she could only produced only daughters. Even Greek Minny felt Alicky was jealous when she talked with her husband of their happy days in Fredenborg. The Black pearls (Montenegran Princesses), their feud with Alicky due to Rasputin was too well known.

Montenegran Princesses were known as the BLACK PERIL,not black pearl ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on March 11, 2009, 04:39:21 AM
The Emperor and the children gave them a warm welcome, while the Empress ignored them as if they did not exist.

Please quote your source!

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 11, 2009, 08:12:06 AM
Alicky did not have a good relationshipship with Miechen at all. When the elder woman tried to guide the young empress, she was rebuffed. Miechen did hold this as a grude against Alicky (especially she did not like her English background). For Xenia, Alicky moved further away as she produced more sons, while she could only produced only daughters. Even Greek Minny felt Alicky was jealous when she talked with her husband of their happy days in Fredenborg. The Black pearls (Montenegran Princesses), their feud with Alicky due to Rasputin was too well known.

Isn't it extraordinary that in a family packed with such paragons of diplomacy, wisdom and even native intellect as Miechen, Maria Georgievna and Xenia Alexandra was even given the time of day?

Leaving aside the fact that the story about Miechen's gracious attempts to guide the young Empress (by encouraging her to slag off her mother-in-law, apparently) comes from Catherine Radziwill, a source you councilled others to avoid, the theatre incident during the mourning period for Alexander III hardly sets her up as a woman to be emulated by one seeking to understand the ways of the court, does it?

Maria Georgievna was not noted for her own sweet relationsip with the Romanovs or Russia, which she sought to be away from as much as she could. Given this, do you think that Alexandra knew her well? Are you aware that people who didn't know Nicholas also left accounts of reserved, "cold" or simply off-hand behaviour which stand in contrast to the adoring reminiscences of his female cousins? Sre you aware of the many aconts of Alexandra being gracious to freinds or strangers, and do you judge her by those too? - I wouldn't base my assessment of a person on either collection of short impressions or incidents, still less think still less think I could deduce their feelings or thoughts from them.

And since Alexandra certainly left no letters in which she said, "oh that bitch Xenia; I wish I could have some boys as well; I think I'll stop inviting her around here until she learns her place," the notion that Alexnadra felt "jealousy" for her sister-in-law's quiverful of sons is conjecture at best. there are plenty of other explanations for the apparent distancing between her and Xenia over the eyars (which by the wya is less apparanet in A's own letters than in Xenia's.) Perhaps Xenia's notion taht Alexandra's ailments were all in the mind - when A had herself noted a connection between her son's illness and her own health - may have played their role. Don't let's forget that in 1905 Xenia and Sandro considered running away.

The point of all this is to say: that the breakdown in Alexandra's relationship with some members of the family is something taht occurred over years and was a story with two sides - like most stories. It was not the in-born hatred of an unreasonable woman for her husband's warm and welcoming relatives who only wanted to be her friends. Back in the days when she and Melitsa were friends, remember, Alexandra was considered odd because the rest of the family looked down their noses at the Montenegrins.

I enjoy this sort of exchange hugely or I wouldn't keep coming back..... ;D :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on March 11, 2009, 08:42:51 AM
Thank you Janet.

I think Eric you truly don't like the Empress Alexandra. Black mailing her. So as Janet says even the Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna tried to escape her husbands country. I think the Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna was maybe one of those who onderstood her cousins wife, how she feeled in the Romanov family. And I would be glad to quote from A Romanov Diary, (but then I need permission from at least Marlene, because of copyright).

The Grand Duchess was very positive about the Empress Alexandra, very honest. In her words: The Empress was not that bad at all, but you have to do your best to know her, and understand her thoughts.

Personal I can maybe feel what the Empress have feeled. People around me don't understand me in the beginning. But many people judge others because their first meeting with them, or because others tells stories about that person in negative way. The best to judge eachother is after a few meetings with a person and have your own confersation with them (without knowing other peoples thoughts).

And it is always easy to judge people behind their back and even more easier to judge about a person when they have died because they never can defend themselve anymore.

It would be very interesting to find the early diaries of the Empress Alexandra so we can maybe find information about her earlier thoughts of her marriage.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marlene on March 11, 2009, 09:55:26 AM
I can act on the copyright holders' .. you may quote wiithin the gudielines of fair use ... if you want to quote a few paragraphs in context with this discussion, you can do so

and for those who may not understand why ... I edited the manuscript  ... ...
Thank you Janet.

I think Eric you truly don't like the Empress Alexandra. Black mailing her. So as Janet says even the Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna tried to escape her husbands country. I think the Grand Duchess Maria Georgievna was maybe one of those who onderstood her cousins wife, how she feeled in the Romanov family. And I would be glad to quote from A Romanov Diary, (but then I need permission from at least Marlene, because of copyright).

The Grand Duchess was very positive about the Empress Alexandra, very honest. In her words: The Empress was not that bad at all, but you have to do your best to know her, and understand her thoughts.

Personal I can maybe feel what the Empress have feeled. People around me don't understand me in the beginning. But many people judge others because their first meeting with them, or because others tells stories about that person in negative way. The best to judge eachother is after a few meetings with a person and have your own confersation with them (without knowing other peoples thoughts).

And it is always easy to judge people behind their back and even more easier to judge about a person when they have died because they never can defend themselve anymore.

It would be very interesting to find the early diaries of the Empress Alexandra so we can maybe find information about her earlier thoughts of her marriage.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 11, 2009, 11:53:52 AM
You are right about me not liking the Empress. I loved her asI first read "Nicholas & Alexandra", but more and more I found out that Alicky has her good side, but also a very dark side. Pride was one of her many faults. She became Empress soon after her marriage, but instead of asking for her mother-in-law and others for help, she forged on ahead. A foreigner who distaste Russian ways (a fallacy of course, but she not helped by her own attitude and cold behavior). Vicky was the first to see the power hungray side of her Hessian niece and wrote to her daughter Sophie about it. The clashes with Minny, Miechen and later Ducky became unavoidable. That is not to say that Miechen was always right, as sometimes her actions bought Alicky and Minny in close agreement on how that branch was actually useful to the Russian Monarchy. Almost certainly the rejection of Boris as a suitor to Olga Nicholievna, eldest daughter of Nicholas II, brought about a break between Alicky and Miechen.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on March 11, 2009, 12:04:06 PM
Thank you for your point of view Eric. Of course the Empress made mistakes. She is not holy for me. What we both can't denie: The Empress Alexandra is a very interesting subject. Some of us, love her, and some others don't. I hope that future books about the Empress will give us another insight. I respect your opinion, Eric.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 11, 2009, 12:08:58 PM
Thanks Teddy for respecting my opinion. Actually we should respect everyone 's opinion, whether we argree with them or not. Sometimes these discussion have a tendency to turn personal. As for Miechen, she was a very interesting charecter too, the real "grande dame" of Russian society at the reign of Nicholas II. It was because of the Dowager Empress's travels and the reigning Empress's self induced retirement that created that vacoom for her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on March 11, 2009, 12:21:01 PM
Once again, the Empress Alexandra had her difficulties. But I really like her. I think some people better can "walk in someone elses footsteps" because they already had the same (or sort off) experience in their own lives as the Empress Alexandra. In my personal life, I also had/have to fight again and again mentally against outsiders, because they don't take the oppurtunity to give me (or others) a chance to explain what I (they) really mean.

But let we stop her to talk about the Empress Alexandra alone, this thread is about the Vladimirs'. :) Also a very interesting family.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Janet Ashton on March 11, 2009, 04:29:07 PM
You are right about me not liking the Empress. I loved her asI first read "Nicholas & Alexandra", but more and more I found out that Alicky has her good side, but also a very dark side. Pride was one of her many faults. She became Empress soon after her marriage, but instead of asking for her mother-in-law and others for help, she forged on ahead. A foreigner who distaste Russian ways (a fallacy of course, but she not helped by her own attitude and cold behavior). Vicky was the first to see the power hungray side of her Hessian niece and wrote to her daughter Sophie about it.


Since I have a cold and can't really concentrate on anything except this board this evening, I am here again with another thought, which is probably OT to the thread, but not sure where else to put it:

In the early days of her marriage Alexandra actually accepted a great deal of help, not just from her mother-in-law (who was present at his first birth and offered other advice on child-bearing) but also from Ella, who was there to literally decorate her houses for her. It was not until Alexandra was nearly thirty that she and Nicholas began to react in secretive or defensive ways to Ella's questioning and lectures (for that's what they were), as far as I can see. I honestly wonder whether Maria feodorvna accepted much advice form HER mother-in-law? - Alexander III, though he was furious at his father's treatment of her, did not get on tha well with his mother either: he did not agree with her politics and he felt very much second best to his late brother. So he formed a "young court" seperate from that of the Tsar, and I have the impression that Maria F. - whose early married life was not easy at all - was left to find her own way or simply "forge ahead". But at least she had a mother to reprimand her now and again when she overstepped the mark.

As nothing more than an observation on Vicky: in Hannah Pakula's good bio of her (it is far superior to the one she did on Queen Marie) she observes, IIRC, "It is odd that Vicky, who recieved such a good education herself, educated her daughters only for marriage." I wouldn't suggest it might definitely be so, but it did cross my mind that her view could be seen in that light: in her niece Alix she was faced (as in the case of her own daughter Charlotte) with a young girl who had opinions of her own, and she judged accordingly. But her favourite hessian was the opinionated Victoria, so perhaps that is a little unfair. She differed from everone in thinking Victoria prettier than Ella and saying so when anyone raised the topic.  ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 12, 2009, 12:16:02 PM
I sincerely think that had Alicky conquered her shyness and illness and put her heart on the line, she would be far more popular in and out of the family. The observation of Andrei is valid as empress, she automatically thought that they should listen to her, but they do not. Emotionally, she was a fatallistic person (according to her cousin Princess Marie Louise), who saw life as a trial than a celebration. Miechen was lucky that she had a foray that Minny did not go into-society, a place that she could shine. As time builds up, her success in business and society gave her a status that she believed herself entitled to. As for Minny and her mother-in-law, according to her daughter Marie Coburg's letters, she was quite in awe of Empress Marie. After the older woman's death, Minny was surprised to discover that her mother-in-law actually quite approve of her. I think once again Minny's tact and acts of consideration paid dividends again--a gift that Alicky sadly lacked.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Olgasha on April 05, 2009, 01:26:47 PM
Miechen with her children:
(http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/245/vladimirovici.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 07, 2009, 01:39:59 PM
Nice picture.

Alicky was one with strong opinions and less likely to tolerant opposition. Ella did try to help, but she soon went to live in Moscow. Anyway any tact, charm and goodwill Ella was able to generate for herself in the Russian court did not seem to rub off on her younger sister, who did have a most superior position. Dagmar did got along with Marie of Hesse, but did not know much from her. Only after her death when Marie Coburg read some of her mother'sletters to her did she realised how the elder woman esteemed her. It was this loyalty to Marie of Hesse that made the acceptance of Alexander II's morganetic wife so trying. She was ashamed of her father-in-law (if you nead "Once a grand duke" you will know how the family felt about that woman...compared to Dagmar, Olga Fedorovna (Cecilie of Baden) was down right rude !). Lets go back to Miechen.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 17, 2009, 12:22:08 PM
Miechen

(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/various/mar_pav.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on August 10, 2009, 05:26:25 AM
Grand Duchess Maria and ladies in waiting at the winter palace ball 1903 - click on the link for the full size picture..

(http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/31363/2143224950102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2143224950102753164XWpAQu)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 14, 2009, 10:32:52 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6823408.ece

Additional jewels belonging to Grand Duchess Marie Pavlovna (the elder) have been found in Sweden's Foreign Ministry.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: imperatrice on September 14, 2009, 10:48:59 PM

any comments  concerning their sale? 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on September 15, 2009, 01:11:27 AM
If I got right from the other sources on this find the jewellery box had not contained anything really exciting like tiaras, streams of pearls and such like. The items are cigarette boxes, cuff links, pins and many other small jewellery - of course very rare and unique.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 15, 2009, 01:17:25 PM
Estimates are its worth is about 2 million pounds. Proceeds to go to her descendants.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: imperatrice on September 15, 2009, 07:30:51 PM

wow!!  that's about 3.3 million dollars
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Lucien on November 17, 2009, 05:58:04 AM
Russian Art week at Sotheby,the auction:

http://catalogue.sothebys.com/auctions/L09678/auction.html

http://catalogue.sothebys.com/events/L09674-8



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: PAVLOV on November 17, 2009, 07:27:42 AM
How amazing, makes one wonder how many other items like these may be squirrelled away somewhere.
Beautiful Faberge pieces, especially the cigarette cases and cufflinks. Leaves me breathless.

Does anyone know who the descendants are, who have "inherited' all these wonderful things ?

I would imagine the 2 pillow cases were used to transport all this stuff out of Russia ?   
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexander1917 on November 17, 2009, 09:47:56 AM
interesting that it lay so many years into dusted boxes...

I think there are some descendants left eg the kent's branch (from Helen) must be about 100 - 200 people
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Michael HR on November 17, 2009, 10:06:32 AM
what wonderful things. Wish I could buy some of them especially the box with the note from the Tsar
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marlene on November 17, 2009, 02:10:31 PM
The descendants would include the descendants of Kirill and Helen.  Kirill has 2 lliving descendants: granddaughter, Maria and great-grandson George.
Helen's descendants are from her three daughters:
Olga who married Paul of Yugoslavia
Marina who married the duke of Kent
and Elisabeth who married the Count of Toerring Jettenbach

How amazing, makes one wonder how many other items like these may be squirrelled away somewhere.
Beautiful Faberge pieces, especially the cigarette cases and cufflinks. Leaves me breathless.

Does anyone know who the descendants are, who have "inherited' all these wonderful things ?

I would imagine the 2 pillow cases were used to transport all this stuff out of Russia ?   
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on November 17, 2009, 09:26:34 PM
Aren't some of Kirill's other descendants, via Kyra and Marie, still living? Kyra certainly had a large family! I wonder if we'll see any items show up on Princess Michael? : )
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on November 18, 2009, 04:30:02 AM
Kirill's descedants include Priinces and Princesses von Leiningen,Princes and Princesses of Yugoslavia,Princes and Princesses von Hohenzollern,Priinces and Princesses of Prussia,Dukes and Duchesses von Oldenburg,von Bismarcks and of course Grand Duchess Marie of Russia and her son among many other living ones...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: PAVLOV on November 18, 2009, 07:32:31 AM
Well the proceeds are going to spread very thinly, are they not ? So many people, so little jewellery !!

I think it may have been better if it was left to a museum.

After 91 years, for each of these people to recieve a pittance each, it hardly seems worth it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 18, 2009, 09:04:56 AM
I agree, Pavlov.  They are just "trinkets" after all.  No shatteringly  historical art works, like a missing Faberge egg. There are probably as many items as there are heirs. By the time commissions and premiums are  taken, not to mention TAXES, I doubt that there will  be much to actually disperse. A museum or if needs be, a donation to charity if even that could be decided upon. In any case, best of luck to the lot of them at the table.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on November 18, 2009, 01:30:53 PM

Sort of funny............  outside ravage and revolution.... and the old bag has nothing better to do than grabbing her cigaretteboxes and cuff links together =)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 18, 2009, 01:42:15 PM
One could look at it that way, TH, but think about it- if your house is on fire and going to burn down, what would you  grab ? [after the living critters, I mean].
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on November 18, 2009, 02:21:18 PM
I just meant that there is such an incredibly large gap between the sufferings of millions which caused that revolution - and the fussiness of hiding those stupid metal and stone things in a pillow... (AND to forget them - after all.......) *lol*
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 18, 2009, 02:28:42 PM
So true, TH. She does seem unclear on the concept, doesn't she?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Terence on November 19, 2009, 12:12:16 AM

Sort of funny............  outside ravage and revolution.... and the old bag has nothing better to do than grabbing her cigaretteboxes and cuff links together =)

You have a point there TH.

As far as heirs, I did a search and it looks like the inheiritance should be split 21 ways.  Some parts of those 21 will be split again, but basically she had 21 great grandchidren who are living or have left heirs.

Regards,
T
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Lucien on November 20, 2009, 12:09:16 PM
Well the proceeds are going to spread very thinly, are they not ? So many people, so little jewellery !!

I think it may have been better if it was left to a museum.

After 91 years, for each of these people to recieve a pittance each, it hardly seems worth it.

It apparently spreads better then expected after all,I mean,$36 million worth of spreading,that will cover
dining out at the local chinese wouldn't it... ::)

http://www.russiatoday.com/Art_and_Fun/2009-11-18/diamonds-saphire-dutchess-sothebys.html?fullstory
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 20, 2009, 12:33:57 PM
The auction house will charge  probably 20% commission on the final sale price of each lot.  On top of thet, VAT, which varies from country to country but in the UK it is 17.2/2 % last I counted.  There is also a fee for just selling the stuff, that  might depend on the valuation. This all goes out of the selling price realised.  Disperse what is left of the money and the heirs will have to deal with income tax and, sometimes, inheritance tax. There may also be another fee to disperse the funds. Those cufflinks and such had better bring in some pretty hefty prices! And, they have no  fabulous parures on offer!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: newfan on November 20, 2009, 07:16:24 PM
there was another piece of GD vladimir jewelery sold in sothebie's in geneva..it went for 3 times the estimate price (17nov,lot#425)
i try to post pic here but i still dont know how
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 21, 2009, 12:42:23 PM
I  was referring to the London auction, which I may or may not attend, but the price guide I gave previously [for the auction itself] is fairly universal for any of them.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: newfan on November 22, 2009, 12:58:33 AM
the jewelery of GD Maria sold for $350 000...not 35 mil...the whole auction was more then just 1 piece of GD Maria
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: PAVLOV on November 25, 2009, 07:38:30 AM
Well I must confess, that were I in the same position, I would also grab my collection of watches and cufflinks and run. Why leave them for the rampaging hordes ? They would certainly not have appreciated it.
I think that GD Vladimir knew that it was pointless even to try and hide her things. She was one of the last to leave, and probably realised that the situation was hopeless, and that she would never return to Russia. I think she was a practical person. Perhaps  Felix Youssopov should have done the same. Look what happened to his family jewels !  ( Excuse the pun)

But then I am just  materialistic, and I LOVE cufflinks.

 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on November 27, 2009, 04:17:55 AM
A couple of pictures of Marie Pavlovna that I hadn't seen before here I don't think.

(http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/46165/2422041400102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2422041400102753164NqTASs)


(http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/44143/2398061660102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2398061660102753164ENfcVi)


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on November 27, 2009, 04:53:25 AM
Love the second one...new one for me!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on November 27, 2009, 07:43:29 AM
A couple of pictures of Marie Pavlovna that I hadn't seen before here I don't think.



The 1st one is quite-known, seen before. The second is a rare find.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Labuanbajo on November 27, 2009, 08:47:15 AM
     "On Monday, {November 30, 2009} Sotheby's in London is selling about 100 cigarette boxes and cufflink pairs that belonged to Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna, an aunt of the last czar. After her nephew was killed, she fled to France, leaving behind two cotton pillowcases full of diamond-encrusted baubles, which were entrusted for safekeeping to Swedish diplomats in Petrograd. The duchess died in 1920 without reclaiming the treasure, and last year it turned up in storage in a government office in Stockholm.

      Her heirs are selling the collection, including the pillowcases, with price estimates for most pieces around a few thousand dollars each. The jewels suit a lifestyle that required multiple changes of outfits daily: the duchess's husband, Vladimir, wore rose-gold cufflinks shaped like bullets when he hunted, then perhaps switched to blue enamel anchors for yachting excursions. After the couple's fifth child was born, someone had a silver-and-sapphire cigarette box made for the family with a joking, unintentionally prophetic inscription for this doomed dynasty: 'Enough children.' "

NY Times, November 27, 2009 p. C37

see the on-line catalogue:  http://catalogue.sothebys.com/events/L09674-8
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: blessOTMA on November 30, 2009, 10:43:23 AM
This auction may do better than people think...there is a  new , wealthy " nobility"  in Russia who
imo,  would love this items.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: newfan on December 01, 2009, 03:26:22 AM
here is the link to the results of the auction....very nice
http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotResultsDetailList.jsp?action=P&start_lot_row_num=101&end_lot_row_num=200&event_id=29796&sale_number=L09678&lots_per_page=100&show_lot_name=Y
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on January 15, 2010, 07:15:22 PM
Does anyone know about, or have a photo of, the sapphire & diamond parure mentioned in the following:

A Sapphire and Diamond Demi-Parure from circa 1900, inherited from Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna by her daughter Princess Elena of Greece and Denmark, Grand Duchess of Russia (1882-1957), had been consigned by its present owner, a Member of a European Imperial Family. Estimated at CHF 140,000 - 180,000 - US$ 137,000 - 176,000, it sold for CHF 482,500, $478,215, €320,086. The jewels have an extremely important historical value as they left Russia just before Maria Pavlovna’s flight from St Petersburg during the 1917 Revolution. The Grand Duchess of Russia recovered them over two years later upon her arrival in England. The group comprises a brooch of plaque design, set at the centre with an oval Burmese sapphire within a border of cushion-shaped diamonds; a pair of ear clips en suite.

It was sold by Sothebys in May 2004.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on January 15, 2010, 07:35:23 PM
This looks like the same piece. sold again in 2009. It's amazing how many of these jewels keep re-appearing at auction

http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159563032

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on January 15, 2010, 08:36:29 PM
Thanks for that link--they do appear to be the same. I would definitely have wanted to hold onto it for longer than 5 years!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Nemos on January 22, 2010, 02:49:00 PM
(http://s003.radikal.ru/i202/1001/73/1ebf23a01953t.jpg) (http://radikal.ru/F/s003.radikal.ru/i202/1001/73/1ebf23a01953.jpg.html)
1914
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Nemos on February 04, 2010, 01:15:33 PM
(http://southwc.ru/1/8/thumbs/k_147720196-opt_nemos19_2.jpg) (http://southwc.ru/k_147720196-opt_nemos19_2.jpg.htm)

Примерно какой год фото ?

Фотоателье Царское Село.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on February 04, 2010, 11:44:48 PM
(http://southwc.ru/1/8/thumbs/k_147720196-opt_nemos19_2.jpg) (http://southwc.ru/k_147720196-opt_nemos19_2.jpg.htm)

Примерно какой год фото ?

Фотоателье Царское Село.

It is 1900-1901.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on February 23, 2010, 12:21:12 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Maria/gdmariascan-1.jpg)
Grand Duchess Maria
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 11, 2010, 10:28:11 AM
(http://i41.tinypic.com/acx2tu.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 15, 2010, 05:36:52 PM


(http://i44.tinypic.com/345blo4.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 21, 2010, 09:48:45 PM
I will add the phonetic transcription to the several lengthy attemps at describing her German nickname Miechen: [ˈmiːçən].
Though in "Peterhof ist ein Traum. Deutsche Prinzessinnen in Russland." she is also referred to as Minnchen.

Miechen really looked looked very beautiful in her youth, rather bland in middle age and wonderfully rotund in old age,
judging from this funny picture from a 1913 regimental dinner:

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h65/griffh130/MeichenRegimentalparty1913.jpg)
Sans jewels and in uniform, this grande dame (in both meanings of the word!) has something Sovietic about her.... Or is it just her great granddaughter Maria Vladimirovna that shines through? :-)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marc on April 21, 2010, 11:05:37 PM
Her granddaughter Olga was always scared of her because she said that she may not leave the table if she doesn't eat everything from her plate.This habit she always practiced herself and one can see in this picture :-)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Teddy on April 22, 2010, 02:11:39 AM
Where did you get this amazing picture?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on April 22, 2010, 03:44:23 AM
Where did you get this amazing picture?

This amazing picture had been posted by me previously at some other thread.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 22, 2010, 08:38:28 AM
OK. I "stole" it from griffith's "The Empress Alexandra Fights Back #3". I hope that's OK.
NB I linked from griffith's photobucket account, not directly from the thread, because that's not good.

BTW thinking about Miechen's rivalry with AF, I am fascinated by the fact that they were enemies and chose widely different paths to uphold Romanov rule and yet both can be accused of playing a major part in the dynasty's downfall.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 22, 2010, 09:05:12 AM
Miechen looks amazing and so alive. It took exile to shorten her life.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on April 22, 2010, 11:44:33 AM
Miechen looks amazing and so alive. It took exile to shorten her life.
It took the tribulations of the revolution and its aftermath...I think she was already far from well by the time she reached exile!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 22, 2010, 12:36:03 PM
Yes. But I agree the tubulent nature of the revolution must have been a factor in her early death. However she was lucky to have escaped with her jewels in tact.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Michael HR on April 22, 2010, 12:39:06 PM
I agree with Eric. .At least she came out with something to live off and not destitute like so many people fleeing Russia at the time. Got to admire her spirit mind you. I had also never realized that Maria V looked so much like her and now I understand where the looks come from as there is a photo here with MP in army uniform and looks so much like MV. Fancy getting your own train across a revolution!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 22, 2010, 12:43:44 PM
Indeed...Miechen escaped with her own train...Olga A wrote that she had the urge to hug her aunt when she saw her. A lady who escaped with style...

You mean Maria V, her granddaughter ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Michael HR on April 22, 2010, 12:45:37 PM
Sorry Eric yes, was not very clear
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 22, 2010, 01:11:44 PM
No worries. She was sometimes referred to as Mushka in family letters. I don't think Miechen was as flirtacious as her granddaughter, who had such a reputation.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 22, 2010, 03:00:21 PM
you all mean "Maria Vladimirovna" ? that not her granddaughter, but her great-granddaughter.

Her grandchildren were:
By Kyril - Maria, Kyra and Vladimir of Russia
by Boris- (illegitimate and was not recognized) Boris Lacroix
By Andrei (maybe) - (illegitimate) Vladimir Romanovsky-Krasinsky
By Helen - Olga, Elisabeth and Marina of Greece & Denmark

Kyril's daughter was Maria Kyrilovna. so she was the only granddaughter named Maria.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 22, 2010, 03:02:32 PM
Indeed. But both Maries looked like Miechen ! Anyway you are right. :-)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 22, 2010, 03:08:02 PM
 Yep..

Miechen was quite beautiful in her youth while her granddaughter Maria K wasn't really. too much sweets between meals, her Aunt Ellen sadly noted. so she was pump and pretty like her cousin Mignon of Romania.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 22, 2010, 03:11:25 PM
Well...She and Marie K and Marie V have the same body shape. I don't think that Miechen was a slim beauty like Alix or Sisi even in her youth...she was more fleshy than that.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 22, 2010, 04:41:23 PM
Being "a beauty" doesn't mean you have to be slim, Eric.  ::) :p
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 23, 2010, 10:16:22 AM
Yes. That is why I said "slim beauty" than a "plump beauty" (Princess Louise Duchess of Argyll and Princess Louise of Belgiun fall into that catagory). Miechen seem to be to be staturesgues even in her youth, she claimed that she had more Slav blood than her husband.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 23, 2010, 10:24:21 AM
she claimed that she had more Slav blood than her husband.

Lol, a bit of an exaggeration, considering that her husband's Slavic ancestors only started marrying foreigners in the 18th century, while her Wendic Slavic ancestors started marrying Germans and Scandinavians in the 13th century!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 23, 2010, 10:26:31 AM
That statement can be found in Kyrill's book "Me in Russia's Service". It was a boost that indicated that Miechen was proud of her Slav heritage...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 13, 2010, 09:41:49 AM
Young Maria Pavlovna

(http://i49.tinypic.com/i6hxug.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 13, 2010, 11:30:36 AM
She wasn't beautiful, but she was pretty and dressed the best out of every high class woman of her time.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexander1917 on June 14, 2010, 10:22:48 AM
nice to see, her famous pearl necklace. does someone has some info about this?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on July 04, 2010, 12:18:38 PM
nice to see, her famous pearl necklace. does someone has some info about this?
The necklace seems to have been dismantled and divided amongst her descendants.Princess Alexandra wore a much reduced version in her younger days with 2 of the pendants as earrings.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on August 06, 2010, 07:49:15 AM
Maria Pavlovna and her children in 1887-1888 years

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/mi18889k.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on August 06, 2010, 10:24:56 AM
Love that photo. I think that's the thinnest I have her seen her in photos. Not bad after having five children.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 06, 2010, 11:43:51 AM
Remember she was wearing corsets.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on August 06, 2010, 12:22:17 PM
Yes, but in photos ranging from early in her marriage to the 1900's, her weight would go up and down. GD Maria had health issues which I believe contributed to her weight gain.When you are heavy, a corset can only do so much. But in the last photo posted, it's one of the slimmest of her I've seen and it's not just the corset at work. Even her face appears thinner.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: PAVLOV on August 10, 2010, 08:32:02 AM
Perhaps all those 20 course dinner parties she gave !

I dont care what people say about her, I still think she would have made a good Empress. She certainly had everything going for her, and would have done a much better job than Alexandra.

Pity about her children though.

One can choose your friends, but not your family.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on August 10, 2010, 11:03:12 AM
I have to agree, with PAVLOV. The role of Empress would have fit the Grand Duchess like a glove.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 10, 2010, 11:17:11 PM
Remember she was wearing corsets.

Yes. But even if you are wearing a corset, it cannot make your arms thinner. And in this pic, Miechen's arms are those of a rather thin person. If you wants to know if a woman from back then was slender or it's the corset who is fooling your eyes  ;D , just look at her arms. If they are quite thin, it's probable that the woman was also thin. If not, you'll notice a woman with a little waist and enormous arms...

You must also remember that back then, corsets were worn not only for women waist looks thinner, but to keep their figure well-shaped. Some girls would even sleep wearing their corset just to keep a slender figure. They would wear it as nowadays "modelators" (I don't know how to say it in English, I mean like modern corsets to shape your figure). Just think almost all woman back then would wear corsets, slender or not.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on August 16, 2010, 10:05:55 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Maria/1910mariapelder001-1.jpg)
1910 Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna in the front row
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on August 27, 2010, 08:18:28 PM
Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna. I'm afraid I haven't been able to find a better version of this image.

(http://i34.tinypic.com/2qip8bd.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2010, 03:13:52 AM
Portarit of Maria Pavlovna,based on a photo, by Kharitonov

(http://www.picatom.com/1l/Untitled1-560-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/1l/Untitled1-560.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on August 31, 2010, 05:31:19 AM
That's a great painting Svetabel :)  I assume it's a period painting and not a modern one? It's interesting to see the colours chosen for the awards etc she is wearing...but I would have thought the sash would be blue rather than red?  isn't that the colour worn by the ladies for the award they were given in the imperial family (the name of it slips my mind at the moment)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 31, 2010, 07:56:15 AM
Could be a new one ? The new one of Ella is not colour co-ordinated too.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2010, 11:44:57 PM
That's a great painting Svetabel :)  I assume it's a period painting and not a modern one? It's interesting to see the colours chosen for the awards etc she is wearing...but I would have thought the sash would be blue rather than red?  isn't that the colour worn by the ladies for the award they were given in the imperial family (the name of it slips my mind at the moment)

That could be a portrait by Nikolai Kharitonov (1880-1944), quite famous a painter before 1917 and even in his exile, in New-York.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2010, 11:50:43 PM
Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna. I'm afraid I haven't been able to find a better version of this image.

http://i34.tinypic.com/2qip8bd.jpg (http://i34.tinypic.com/2qip8bd.jpg)

I had posted the larger version of it in Part I of the Vladimirovitchi, though the colours were different becouse of the quality of the illustration.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on December 29, 2010, 07:12:25 AM
Seemed Maria Pavlovna had a photo with the staff of every infirmary and hospital of Petrograd and its suburbs in 1914-1917 years

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1110700_0001-1-th.jpeg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1110700_0001-1.html)

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1110737_0001-1-th.jpeg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1110737_0001-1.html)

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111652_0001-1-th.jpeg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111652_0001-1.html)

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111653_0001-1-th.jpeg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111653_0001-1.html)

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111654_0001-1-th.jpeg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111654_0001-1.html)

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111654_00011-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111654_00011-1.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: blessOTMA on December 29, 2010, 09:44:57 PM
Remarable photos  Svetabel ! Thank you! It seems Maria Pavlovna  believed in royals doing their job and to be SEEN doing their job! lol! 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexander1917 on December 30, 2010, 07:30:36 AM
Remarable photos  Svetabel ! Thank you! It seems Maria Pavlovna  believed in royals doing their job and to be SEEN doing their job! lol! 


I think many other royals do the same job. but the photos are lost or still not seen, in some of the archives. for this pics of MP are new.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on December 30, 2010, 09:13:01 AM
Remarable photos  Svetabel ! Thank you! It seems Maria Pavlovna  believed in royals doing their job and to be SEEN doing their job! lol! 


She also knew how to show herself in a favorable light and make a good impression. She always tried to shine down any Empress.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 30, 2010, 10:24:34 AM
Were these pictures posted in the newspapers and newsreels of the time ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on December 30, 2010, 04:06:02 PM
slightly better scan than the previously posted image

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdmariapagowncloseup001-1.jpg)
GD Maria in court dress
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Vecchiolarry on December 30, 2010, 10:15:19 PM
Hi,

Is that brooch on her bodice the same one that was inherited by Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent?

Larry
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on December 30, 2010, 11:30:08 PM
Were these pictures posted in the newspapers and newsreels of the time ?

In the magazines of the time.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexander1917 on December 31, 2010, 10:12:59 AM
Hi,

Is that brooch on her bodice the same one that was inherited by Princess Marina, The Duchess of Kent?

Larry

when I remember right the brooch was a wedding gift from Nicholas II to Helen Vlad.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 31, 2010, 12:50:48 PM
That was a diamond bow brooch.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on January 07, 2011, 01:36:48 AM
Grand Duchess Maria in costume


(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Maria/2192921280105766438lQijtQ_fs-1.jpg)
1883 ball

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Maria/gdmaria1903001.jpg)
1903 ball
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: violetta on January 28, 2011, 05:04:49 PM
in contrexeville


(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/marpavleldercontrexeville.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexander1917 on January 31, 2011, 09:43:53 AM
That was a diamond bow brooch.

I know that. regarding to the pic it's an othe rdesign. the darker parts are the sash of the order worn.
here a link to marinas brooch
http://www.pricescope.com/forum/download/file.php?id=212213
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on February 06, 2011, 10:09:00 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdmpjewrompic001.jpg)
Grand Duchess Maria
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bestfriendsgirl on February 15, 2011, 03:47:31 PM
Interesting thread, although I can't honestly say I'm a fan of Miechen. To me, she comes off like another "middle school mean girl", Alice Roosevelt Longworth, whose era overlapped with Miechen's. Alice reportedly was thrilled when President William McKinnley was shot, enabling her father Theodore Roosevelt to become President of the United States, and picked mercilessly on her unattractive cousin Eleanor. Give me Alix any day!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on April 06, 2011, 06:34:48 AM
probably not entirely new, but I thought the comparison between these two images of Maria dressed for a fancy dress ball in 1883 was interesting...

(http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/47630/2424944230102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2424944230102753164HVQhbW)

(http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/44619/2380908360102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2380908360102753164YoWmfe)



Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on April 25, 2011, 04:51:45 AM
Maria Pavlovna and her brother Friedrich Franz.


(http://i51.tinypic.com/vno7zc.jpg)

There's other shot from this session in the Camera and the Tzars by Ch.Zeepvat
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on April 26, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
Maria Pavlovna in Contrexéville

(http://www.picatom.com/1w/Untitled411-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/1w/Untitled411-1.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 04, 2011, 09:22:00 AM
If these were  posted before, plese feel free to delete

Gdss Maria Pavlovn and Kids

(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4972/04002ddc9798a1xl.jpg)



Courtesy of Lj Nenai
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Kalafrana on June 15, 2011, 04:27:17 AM
Msge 396

What a study in boredom!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alexander1917 on June 15, 2011, 10:19:25 AM
Msge 396

What a study in boredom!

remember the long time to take such a photo in those times!!!!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Kalafrana on June 15, 2011, 10:21:40 AM
True, but the extent of the boredom is spectacular.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2011, 05:48:36 AM
GDss Maria P. with her daughter Elena and daughter-in-law Victoria, 1913 year.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/1913edrfgthy.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: THERRY on September 01, 2011, 10:56:37 AM
A wonderful image of three remarkable women  ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 01, 2011, 01:51:29 PM
Yes. Ellen became great friends with Ducky, while both had problems with the difficult Miechen.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: TxKiev on October 01, 2011, 05:23:15 PM

I read that a portion of the proceeds from the auction of the long lost Faberge items found in the two pillows in the Swedish legation in Stockholm were to be used by G.D. Maria Pavlovna (the Elder)'s  heirs to have a biography of Miechen written ----this was not long after the auction in December of 2009 -----does anyone know if there is any accuracy to this, and, if so, any idea where the project may stand.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2011, 07:20:44 AM
Really ? I haven't heard about this before. Were the Faberge items part of Miechen's property ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 05, 2011, 09:21:01 AM

I read that a portion of the proceeds from the auction of the long lost Faberge items found in the two pillows in the Swedish legation in Stockholm were to be used by G.D. Maria Pavlovna (the Elder)'s  heirs to have a biography of Miechen written ----this was not long after the auction in December of 2009 -----does anyone know if there is any accuracy to this, and, if so, any idea where the project may stand.

That is correct. In Jewels of The Romanovs by Stefano Papi it is reported that the heirs donated some of the profits from the sale  to restoring the castle in Schwerin where Grand Duchess Vladimir was born as well as to fund her first official biography. This was only in late 2009 so perhaps research is still going on! I would love to know for sure.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Kalafrana on October 05, 2011, 09:24:32 AM
I wonder whether this biography is going to be published in English.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2011, 11:25:47 AM
I sure hope so.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on October 12, 2011, 04:08:02 PM
Really ? I haven't heard about this before. Were the Faberge items part of Miechen's property ?

Yes.  They were items that were retrieved from Vladimir's study, contained in pillowcases,  and deposited with the Swedish Legation, who promptly forgot about them for decades.

Cufflinks, gold boxes etc......items that had belonged to Vladimir.  The sale apparently realised far more than the initial estimates suggested would be achieved.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 13, 2011, 09:21:07 AM
They should be going to the heirs. Wow ! There are many ! The Kents, Serbians, Toerrings, Grand Duchess Maria & George of Russia, Kyra & Marie's decendeents...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on October 13, 2011, 12:02:06 PM
They did.  And they decided to sell them.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 13, 2011, 02:41:47 PM
Good. I wonder if any Royal Houses will be buying part of the collection.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on October 13, 2011, 04:22:00 PM
It was all auctioned a while back......
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 15, 2011, 02:10:17 PM
Could check the records of the buyers. Could be Rich Russians...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on October 15, 2011, 05:24:44 PM
Marie and two of her children. I'm not sure which ones they are..

(http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/46736/2286396860102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2286396860102753164bSCaSA)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Veronica on October 15, 2011, 05:57:39 PM
Nice one Kathy!

They look like Kirill and Boris to me.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 15, 2011, 06:53:47 PM
Yup, Veronica is right.

Nice image and Welcome back, Kat!!!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 15, 2011, 10:42:45 PM
Indeed, although Miechen did not think much of their choices for wives, especially Boris's.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on October 16, 2011, 01:48:45 PM
Could check the records of the buyers. Could be Rich Russians...
The collection will have been scattered to the four corners of the earth though although I have no doubt a good proportion will have returned to Russia,
However even though it is several years ago auctioneers of the calibre of Christies or Sothebys will not divulge the purchasers of the items passing through their rooms.
I am surprised you would imagine they would!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2011, 02:25:55 PM
I have a close relationship with Sotheby's and Christie's. Always the insider track...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on October 16, 2011, 02:46:03 PM
I have a close relationship with Sotheby's and Christie's. Always the insider track...
You better becareful bragging about your contacts.....they will drop you like a hot potato...a big mouth is  a big liabilty!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 16, 2011, 03:38:58 PM
I did not say who and would not tell you what I found out. So you will not know...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on October 16, 2011, 04:20:43 PM
I did not say who and would not tell you what I found out. So you will not know...
LOL I wouldnt want to know....but NOW the world knows you  are not discreet !
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 17, 2011, 08:47:24 AM
Only tantalizing. I have not spilled any beans yet and will not do so here anymore because of the likes of you. Save your judgement for others.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashdean on October 17, 2011, 09:24:50 AM
Only tantalizing. I have not spilled any beans yet and will not do so here anymore because of the likes of you. Save your judgement for others.
You only tantilize those who fall for the bait.....I might always be the greatest judge of character...but I know hot air when I see it!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 17, 2011, 11:08:23 AM
Well...You don't know me and vice versa. Lets move on.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 17, 2011, 11:28:11 AM
I have a close relationship with Sotheby's and Christie's. Always the insider track...

Keep dreaming....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on October 17, 2011, 11:36:08 AM
Discretion is the better part of valour, Eric, so it might be wise to retire before you lose face completely.

The idea that these auction houses would divulge information that is surely confidential is errant nonsense.

As Ashdean correctly suggests, these items will have been utterly dispersed, and some of the buyers will not doubt have expected, and received, complete confidentiality in their purchases of these artifacts.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: grandduchessella on October 17, 2011, 12:11:09 PM
I would like to add that 'tantalizing' people with information while at the same time proclaiming you will never disclose fully what it is or who you heard it from is rather cruel to posters and counter to the spirit of the Forum. Solid information is what is desired along with relevant facts to back it up.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 17, 2011, 12:13:12 PM
I think you are mistaken. Auction Houses do give information to those serious scholars who wanted to study some of these objects. Of course the permission had to be given from the buyers, but if agreed, they do give them out. I have worked with them and they only give it to serious researchers. If I give you the impression of them gossiping about, then it was misinformation given.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Martyn on October 17, 2011, 01:58:25 PM
Perhaps your rather gossipy style gave us the wrong impression.  I am sure that no one doubts your scholarly credentials and am equally sure that we all look forward to any revelations that you may be able to enlighten us with during the course of your undoubted in depth research into the sales of these objects.

Please don't wait too long to share your finds with us.....
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 18, 2011, 09:00:44 PM
I am sorry if I give that impression. I was having a moment with Ashdean (more like a spat). I am generally a very serious researcher beside people that are serious about scholastic information.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Kalafrana on October 19, 2011, 03:22:24 AM
Eric

I have clearly underestimated you.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 19, 2011, 07:48:42 AM
I hope in a good way. Lets go back to the discussion.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: gem_10 on January 08, 2012, 08:08:03 AM
Portrait of Maria Pavlovna from the Staatliches Museum in Schwerin

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v614/lunarmaiden10/mi08973e06a.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: THERRY on January 08, 2012, 09:16:54 AM
Fabulous and totally new for me! She was very enchanting. I wonder how nice this portrait may be in color !
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2012, 12:35:33 PM
Very flattering.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 08, 2012, 10:15:36 PM
Very flattering.  :)

I agree...In this portrait we are seeinga really beatiful and regal lady...but she doesn't like anything like the real Miechen. Just my little thoughts there... ;D

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 09, 2012, 10:52:39 AM
It might be painted by her command as gift to her family. That is why you see the good side. :-)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on March 23, 2012, 04:19:22 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdmariaeldercloseupphoto.png)
Screen shot from "The Royal Jewels".
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 24, 2012, 11:31:38 AM
The face of ambition and power...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 24, 2012, 06:53:27 PM
the face of greed, deception, and lies...too...dont forget that Eric.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 25, 2012, 10:41:24 AM
I don't know about deception. Miechen had been very open about her ambition and opposition to the throne headed by her nephew Nicholas II. She considered him weak and ineffective (he was) and thought her family was better than that (she was wrong).Without Alexander III to rein them in, her opposition was pretty much to the surface.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on March 25, 2012, 01:19:52 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/closeup1874gdmaria.png)

GD Maria c. 1874
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 26, 2012, 07:06:09 AM
She was nice looking but no beauty.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 27, 2012, 05:20:54 AM
I sense a chill about her in this portrait. I dont know but in most of her pics...she looked as if she had this mean streak about her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 27, 2012, 07:15:15 AM
She was formidable there was no doubt.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 28, 2012, 01:26:37 AM
I'll drink to that lol
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on March 28, 2012, 01:39:59 AM
I actually believe GD Maria was attractive in her youth. Granted she wasn't a celebrated beauty like other members of royalty but in photos of her youth, she actually appears pretty.  I have to admit, she is one of those characters I wish more was written about. 


(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdmariapelderfullphototouchup-3.png)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bestfriendsgirl on March 29, 2012, 04:32:01 PM
She was out for what she could get, as were a lot of Grand Duke's wives, especially the morganatic ones.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 29, 2012, 09:17:15 PM
a little bit of topic but I'll get to my point -

A lot of great and grand women married into the Imperial Romanov House, to me the most humble of them all -Grand Duchess to marry into the family- NOT Ella of Hesse but  Duchess Alexandra Petrovna of Oldenburg (Grand Duchess Nicholas the elder), a Russian born German Duchess and and a  great-granddaughter of Tsar Paul I, whom was a plain, unsophisticated and saintly person from the very start. she became a nun as 'Sister Anastasia' taking Holy Orders on 3 November 1889 in Kiev, while her husband was still alive.

While Maria Pavlovian the Elder was the opposite- ambitious, charming, stylish and greedy. besides her nasty habits, i do like her, very intersting person.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 30, 2012, 05:12:21 PM
Yes. She was a very fascinating person. She was well dressed, clever and had great charm when she exercised it. One must not forget Miechen was one of those who persuaded Alix of Hesse to marry Nicholas. She did it for sinister reasons (Alix's family has the dreaded "family" disease, and that will increase the chances of her sons to move closer to the throne). Nonetheless she was successful. She also played matchmaker for "Foxy" Ferdinand of Bulgaria.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 30, 2012, 10:35:56 PM
Ohhhhhhhhhh so thats why she encouraged the match between the Czar and Alix and I always thought she supported it because both she and Alix were Germans, but oh Gotcha now...so conniving.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: bestfriendsgirl on March 31, 2012, 07:18:51 AM
That's just plain ugly! I feel for Alix even more than I did before!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Vecchiolarry on March 31, 2012, 09:57:30 AM
Hi,

My goodness what a lot of vindictive acid is being poured on poor old Aunt Meichen.....
She may have not been the nicest person in the world or even the Romanovs, but can we not say something positive about her - -
like the hospital train she manned in Southern Russia, or promoting art, architecture, music and theater.

Personally, I'd have loved to have been at one of her dinner parties;  and that Grand Duchess who became a nun would have bored the socks off me.
Give me glamour and not drudgery!!!

Larry
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 01, 2012, 08:11:43 AM
Miechen could be a good and loyal friend, but you don't want to face her in the ring. She was clever and once Bismark called her "the cleverest girl in Germany". she came with ambition to Russia (unlike Dagmar who was quite awed by the scope of the glamor). After the marriage she became the best eyes and ears in Europe, and so much so that she was accused for being a spy for Germany. The praise from Bismark didn't help either. After Alix married Nicholas, Miechen tried to be a mentor to her, but was rebuffed. After that Miechen became the young Empress's fiercest critic. Once after a successful ball at her palace, she told her guest she relay back to the court, that "that is how things should be done !"
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 01, 2012, 08:23:11 AM
^ Also the Grand Duchess Vladimir was VERY unforgiving. even just once cross her, and your her enemy for life.

she never forgave Empress Alix for been quite nasty for the marriage of Grand Duke and Grand Duchess Kyrill, also for the proposal of Grand Duke Boris to her daughter Olga Nikolaievna.  I wouldn't want Boris to marriage Olga either, age difference is a  bit too much and for his womanizing even thought he was a nice guy.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 01, 2012, 03:08:58 PM
It is interesting that Miechen wasn't that friendly with Ducky even after she married Kyril. She was far closer with Missy (Queen Marie of Romania).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Kalafrana on April 02, 2012, 04:02:53 AM
Miechen had her good points, but she was very much a formidable female.

In the right place, with a suitable role, formidable females can be a very good thing (I know quite a few, and come from a family which produces them!), but Miechen didn't really have a serious role, so her organising abilities got diverted into ambition and intrigue.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 02, 2012, 08:59:56 AM
Not an easy person to get along with and expected to be obeyed. She even got into a tiff with Ella...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on April 02, 2012, 11:16:43 PM
She just got into a tiff with just about anybody....yes she was formidable and intelligent, but her ambitious turned from lust to obsession which made her very dangerous.  She was elegant however but did not seem to me very happy with herself or role so she had to critique people. Most likely she didnt like Ducky for her being related to Queen Victoria, but I dont understand how she liked Missy when both women were from the British royal family. Who knows?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: CountessKate on April 03, 2012, 10:38:49 AM
She just got into a tiff with just about anybody....yes she was formidable and intelligent, but her ambitious turned from lust to obsession which made her very dangerous.  She was elegant however but did not seem to me very happy with herself or role so she had to critique people. Most likely she didnt like Ducky for her being related to Queen Victoria, but I dont understand how she liked Missy when both women were from the British royal family. Who knows?

I don't think Ducky's relationship to Queen Victoria was a factor, as the Edinburgh girls were her nieces by marriage and she had known them since their birth without showing any interest in how they interacted with QV.  Ducky's divorce made both of Kyrill's parents dubious about his marriage to Ducky, but they took it pretty well on the whole and even had a monumental row with Nicholas over the deprivation of his title and banishment from Russia.  When Kyrill and his wife returned to Russia with titles restored, she had a perfectly amicable relationship with her daughter-in-law.  However, Marie of Romania wrote that during the war she was "in constant correspondence" with Marie Pavlovna "about the exchange of prisoners, etc.  She was a very important lady in Petersburg and very eager that we should come in on the Russian side" (as Romania was neutral at the time). This suggests that Marie Pavlovna's preference for her niece Marie may have been because Marie of Romania had political influence and was a future queen, so worth cultivating in a more obvious way than she would her daughter-in-law.  Marie of Romania was unquestionably dazzled by her aunt's personality and social prominance, and perhaps rather overestimated her overall importance.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 03, 2012, 12:20:38 PM
Indeed. Missy did end up on the winning side and able to help her less fortunate relatives. Also Missy had a more sunny deposition than the moody Ducky. But then Alicky did not like either of them...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: jehan on April 30, 2012, 07:14:20 PM
One must not forget Miechen was one of those who persuaded Alix of Hesse to marry Nicholas. She did it for sinister reasons (Alix's family has the dreaded "family" disease, and that will increase the chances of her sons to move closer to the throne). Nonetheless she was successful. She also played matchmaker for "Foxy" Ferdinand of Bulgaria.

What is your source for this?  I have read a great deal about the Romanovs and have never heard this before.  And if there is a source, I wonder how accurate it is? 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 01, 2012, 01:02:36 PM
It was recorded in many books. It was Miechen & Kaiser Wilhelm that spoke to Alicky and finally she said yes.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: jehan on May 01, 2012, 08:56:20 PM
It was recorded in many books. It was Miechen & Kaiser Wilhelm that spoke to Alicky and finally she said yes.

I know that .  It's just MP's motivations I was wondering about,  Did she ever tell anyone (verbally or in writing) that that was the reason she wanted the marriage, or is it just others projecting possible motivations on to her?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 01, 2012, 10:35:29 PM
From one source is that MP known that Alix maybe a carrier and have a sickly son, did come true. so that her own sons will be closer to the throne. by this point of 12 years of Romanov History i find MP to be an almost evil woman.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Kalafrana on May 02, 2012, 03:27:24 AM
It is quite a jump from knowing that Alexandra could be a carrier to actively promoting her marriage to Nicholas in the hope that he would then have a haemophiliac heir. And we should not forget that at the time of the engagement Mikhail Alexandrovich was a healthy teenage boy who could be expected to make a proper marriage and produce sons, even though Georgi was already seriously ill with TB.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Janet Ashton on May 02, 2012, 07:10:30 AM
It is quite a jump from knowing that Alexandra could be a carrier to actively promoting her marriage to Nicholas in the hope that he would then have a haemophiliac heir.

Quite. It is far more likely that Miechen promoted the marriage in the hope of seeing a young, impressionable German girl who she could influence married to the Tsesarevich (and perhaps creating some domestic tensions for Marie F. at the same time). If she had had the least idea at this stage that her own sons might someday sit on the throne she'd have ben a lot less keen to hang onto her Proetstant faith as long as she did.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 02, 2012, 07:14:41 AM
I think it was well known that the family of Hesse had that disease. In John Rohl's book, it was that reason that Vicky oppose Wilhelm's wish to marry Ella. Her fears came true when Irene married Henry and the disease came to her family. Most certainly someone as knowledgeable as Miechen will have known the possibility of that. It was speculated that was the reason for her promotion of the match, especially she wasn't a fan of the British Royal Family or anything Britain for that matter...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Janet Ashton on May 03, 2012, 07:02:05 AM
I think it was well known that the family of Hesse had that disease. In John Rohl's book, it was that reason that Vicky oppose Wilhelm's wish to marry Ella. Her fears came true when Irene married Henry and the disease came to her family. Most certainly someone as knowledgeable as Miechen will have known the possibility of that. It was speculated that was the reason for her promotion of the match, especially she wasn't a fan of the British Royal Family or anything Britain for that matter...

"Vicky" was the sister and aunt of haemophilic boys, and it makes sense on every level that she'd want to avoid her grandhcildren having the disease. THis is a litle different to suggesting that Maria Pavlovna was versed in the issues on anything other than a vague level, and tried to introduce it to the Romanovs, depsite the many unknowable factors involved (e..g was Alix a carrier/ How many sons would she have who would inherit it? etc etc) in order to acquire the throne for a son of hers who was some distance from it anyway. I am sure that some people have "speculated" about her motives in retropsect, but without any plausible evidence at all.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 04, 2012, 09:55:20 AM
I would not underestimated anybody who had been a friend and ally of Bismark. She is well versed with the secrets of royal families. She also brokered the second marriage of "Foxy" Ferdinand of Bulgaria. Even if you do not think she had it proven beyond a reasonable doubt, I would pass her for doing that for that reason.  Miechen remained a suspect in my book.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 04, 2012, 10:38:51 AM
well Foxy Ferdinand of Bulgaria's second wife  Eleonore was MP's cousin, connections really with the powerful.  as for Alix, i think as a clever woman as MP, she would have known something.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 04, 2012, 11:44:15 AM
Yes. That is my suspicion. As a granddaughter of Queen Victoria, Alicky wasn't the most favorite person to the Anglophobe Miechen. I don't buy the fact she encourage the match because she wanted to annoy Minny (Marie Feodorovna) since she knew how close the Empress was to her sister,the Princess of Wales.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on May 15, 2012, 09:43:47 AM
Does anyone have pics of Miechen as a child or living back in Schwerin and a wedding portrait of she and Vladimir in 1874?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 15, 2012, 10:48:35 PM
That hasn't surfaced yet...as far as I know.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on May 15, 2012, 11:17:23 PM
Miechen as a child:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/panhistoria/Marieasachild.jpg)


i have seen some of her as a  teen with her little half-sister Anna, there somewhere on this forum.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 16, 2012, 12:14:45 PM
Thanks for sharing. Her facial features are fully developed.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: QueenEna1887 on July 06, 2012, 10:22:03 AM
Does anyone have a photo of the Vladimir's first child Grand Duke Alexander Vladimirovich of Russia b. 1875 d. 1877? Ive never saw a photo of him however he was mentioned from time to time.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2012, 11:02:20 AM
Did not see one ever...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 07, 2012, 11:46:35 PM
In 1914, beside her are her granddaughters Elisabeth and Olga of Greece (in white)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/G125.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 08, 2012, 10:56:52 PM
I think I also see Kirill on the side.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 23, 2012, 07:27:55 AM
(http://www.efeu-ev.de/richter/MariaPawlowna_gem.jpg)

Marie Pawlowna painted by Gustav Richter
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 23, 2012, 07:30:30 AM
(http://www.efeu-ev.de/richter/MariaAlexandrowna_gem.jpg)

Gustav Richter painted also this picture of Marie's sister-in-law Maria Alexandrowna
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 24, 2012, 10:52:43 AM
Swedish painter ? I wonder where Marie's painting is now ? Still in Russia or Mecklenburg ?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Russian Art Lover on July 24, 2012, 05:12:20 PM
I wish I could add to this interesting discussion, but all I can say about Maria Pavlovna is that she became close to Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna after the revolution, as both were more or less the sole survivors from the older generation.

I have to say that I am not drawn to Miechen at all. Give me Alix, Ella, Zinaida, Minny any day, with all their faults and flaws. At least that makes them seem more "human." In my book, being a superb hostess (when you have millions in the bank and an army of servants) or fleeing the revolution in style does not really endear me to her. I find Miechen cold, ambitious and somewhat one-dimensional. For most of her life, she was rather an ugly woman, and her spectacular jewels seem to somehow make her to me more ugly, strangely. For all her ambitions in Russia, I think her determination to cling to Lutheranism shows that she was more prepared to "take" from Russia, but not really give back anything in turn. Minny really was involved in countless acts of charity and introduced many small innovations from liberal Denmark. Ella and Alix threw themselves into the religion, went on pilgrimages, studied the history. But all Miechen seemed to do was host grand parties and take on similar public roles such as president of the Imperial Academy of Arts after her husband's death. Ella and Alix did less fashionable things, like open schools of traditional handicraft, that sort of thing. I just feel Miechen was insincere and her ambitions leave me cold.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 25, 2012, 08:23:16 AM
I think Dagmar did did more harm to Russia than Miechen.
Dagmar drove her husband away from Germany, a country that never had serious problems with Russia - just for her revenge for Denmark losing the Schleswig-Holstein war..
The turn to France was also a giant great mistake - look at 1914...
She sacrificed the dynasty, her remaining two sons, her daughter-in-law and her five Grandchildren for a war and victory over Germany..
Dagmar did all she could to have danish firms and buisnessess to work in Russia, all other empresses put Russia first - she did not.
She made that her son Nicky had no teacher long enough to built a relationship or influence him in a positive way - just because she wanted all control over him.

Miechen was not a symphatic person, but she was a strong woman and a notable host and did her best to entertain the russian upper-class.
Her sons were another topic..
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 25, 2012, 10:44:29 AM
I have to disagree. Dagmar did not drive Russia away from Germany. Willy did with his wild schemes. You have to remember Alexander III continue to work with Bismark and continued the "Three Emperor's League" with Germany & Austria. Miechen on the other hand was the tool of Bismark. Called by the Iron Chancellor as "the cleverest princess in Germany", Miechen was involved in intrigues that left Alexander III, reeling. In the Emperor's mind he was nothing more than a traitor to Russia and a spy for Germany.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 25, 2012, 11:46:46 AM
I am not a fan of Wilhelm II. or the Hohenzollern, but the Kaiser was only known for his provoking speeches and "Säbelrasseln" but in his rign there was from 1888-1914 not a single war.
In Germany there is a saying: Dogs who bark don't bite.

How can Miechen be a spy??? She had no access to state papers and was not consulted at decisions..
Bismarck also had much of correspondence with smart women, Katharina Orloff for example or Hildegard von Spitzemberg, so why shouldn't he just correspondence with Miechen?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Russian Art Lover on July 25, 2012, 02:42:32 PM
I believe Alexander III gave Miechen a good dressing-down when he heard she had been feeding information to Bismark, no?
She certainly had access to state secrets - she was sleeping with the man who was number two in the empire!
While Dagmar certainly did all she could for Danish firms and businesses in Russia, there is no denying that, I do not think that she was responsible for the move away from Germany. It was Alexander II alone who followed a pro-Prussian foreign policy (which brought Russia nothing, by the way!) - everyone else was against it, including the Empress (a Hessian princess) and the heir himself, the future Alexander III. During the Franco-Prussian War, everyone was aghast when Alexander II seemed so pleased at the Prussian victories. But the move away from Germany towards France was very much the fault of Prussia herself - and it was Alexander III who made all the decisions. Yes, Dagmar was incredibly anti-Prussian, but at that stage she did not dare to try and influence her husband. If Alexander III had been pro-German, she could certainly not have been able to make him change his mind! Alexander III was a very astute tsar - he took capital from everyone to build up Russian industry, and kept Russia out of wars. If anything, it was Kaiser Willie and all his games and intrigues that turned Alexander III (and Edward VII) against him, far more than any influence from their wives.
I do agree, of course, that Miechen was a strong woman and a notable host. It sometimes happens that the most unpleasant people make the best politicians and rulers!
I wonder what feelings Miechen secretly harboured about being empress herself? After Nixa died, Alexander only wanted to marry "Dusenka" Mescherskaya and had to be forced by his father to go to Copenhagen and propose to Dagmar. Ideally, he would have been allowed to make a morganatic marriage to Mescherskaya and the throne would have passed to Vladimir and Miechen..... Both would have loved that, I feel.... Funny how close they also came in the next generation, with Kirill and Ducky.... To be honest, I have never understand why Miechen kept her Lutheranism for so long. Was she so religious? All other German princesses dropped it like a hot cake, even Alix, if it meant marrying a tsar or a grand duke!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 25, 2012, 03:01:32 PM
Bismarck had spys everywhere (he was ambassador to Russia and had connections there) he didn't need Miechen for that...

Alexanders II. pro-Prussian foreign policy brought peace, or was there any war between Russia or any German State before 1914?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 26, 2012, 08:21:07 PM
Yes. But Miechen was a willing student to Bismark. She also made a lot of money in trade too. Both she and her husband were one of the most wealthy of all the grand ducal couples in Russia.

I think Alexander III began to have doubts about Germany once Bismark was dropped by Willy, even though Dagmar hated that man, Alexander believe he was a guarantee of peace. 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: CountessKate on July 27, 2012, 12:51:54 AM
Quote
She also made a lot of money in trade too.

How did she make money in trade?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 27, 2012, 07:36:10 AM
By make deals like railroads in Russia. As a senior grand ducal couple, Vladmir and Miechen had great power and influence at court.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Brassov on September 06, 2012, 05:37:23 AM
I have always liked her, perhaps because she was a colourful personality and she enjoyed being who she was. So a few people disliked her for various reasons, so what ? From all accounts she comes across as being a bit eccentric, very extravagant, but at the same time, very intelligent and brave.   

There is a post on Arturo Beeches website about the reunion of her heirs at Contrexeville. I never realised that she had a palace built in the town. Has the building been turned into an hotel ?
It would be interesting to see photos of the interior.  This appears to be a forgotten Romanov residence, as I cannot find very much about it.     
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 06, 2012, 01:18:56 PM
I think quite a few Romanovs had property overseas. Miechen is only one of them. Her son Cyril bought an apartment in Paris with money from his parents while he was in exile due to his marriage to Victoria Melita. Grand Duke Paul also bought a house in France while he and his wife Princess Paley was in exile and able to return and live after the revolution. I was quite surprised that Xenia & Sandro did not have a house in Paris or Felix Yusspov considering that they could easily afford it.

As for the likability of Miechen, she was too bossy for my taste. In fact, it was rumored that Prince Max of Baden broke his engagement to Ellen because he couldn't stand his future mother-in-law. Both Prince Nicholas of Greece and Princess Victoria Melita of Coburg had trying times with her. It may be easy to admire her from afar, but it might not be the same to have a relationship or friendship with her. She even was able to pick a fight with Ella, one of the most beloved of grand duchesses.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: edubs31 on September 06, 2012, 03:18:47 PM
I don't like her much at all. I find her interesting certainly and I do realize that she played a necessary role in her entertaining of the court and high Russian society...but there is no doubt she was a woman with an agenda and two faced at that.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 06, 2012, 03:33:33 PM
Yes. She was a very demanding woman and usually get her own way. She did not care the grief she caused others (her own daughter included).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Vecchiolarry on September 06, 2012, 05:46:37 PM
Hi,

I think admiring her from afar is the best way to view her.
I like her and find her fascinating;  but I didn't have to deal with her - so that may be a whole different 'kettle of fish'........

As for her home in Contrexeville - - I think it is now an expensive hotel;  but I've never been to Contrexeville, so I don't know for sure.
Contrexeville is a spa type city (town) in Northeastern France.  Popular in the 19th and early 20th centuries but little heard of now-a-days...

Larry
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Stardust on September 06, 2012, 07:44:48 PM

I don't like her much at all. I find her interesting certainly and I do realize that she played a necessary role in her entertaining of the court and high Russian society...but there is no doubt she was a woman with an agenda and two faced at that.
[/quote]

You couldn't have put that one better edubs31!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 07, 2012, 07:44:43 AM
Not to mention selfish and lack of tact. Czarina Marie Feodorovrna was the genuine grand dame, gracious and friendly without an agenda.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on September 21, 2012, 12:26:02 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/gdmaria1900smarked_zpscf9efc71.jpg)
Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 21, 2012, 09:47:14 AM
Her granddaughter Marie (daughter of Kyril & Ducky) was an exact copy of her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Stardust on September 21, 2012, 10:42:39 AM
Wow!  I never seen that one.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Veronica on September 22, 2012, 07:40:07 PM
Maria Pavlovna, before her marriage, with an unidentified woman. Any idea of who she might be? I think Alexandrine of Prussia.

(http://i1071.photobucket.com/albums/u501/Patriciavv/miechenbild_zps864095f6.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Svetabel on September 23, 2012, 12:06:16 AM
Maria Pavlovna, before her marriage, with an unidentified woman. Any idea of who she might be? I think Alexandrine of Prussia.


Looks very much like Alexandrine.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 23, 2012, 11:41:46 AM
Miechen looks more handsome than beautiful is shown in this picture.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Kalafrana on September 24, 2012, 02:13:10 AM
Both of them look pretty unhappy!

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Alixz on September 24, 2012, 07:20:57 PM
Unfortunately, most people look unhappy in photos from the last century.  :-(

Eric, you made a post wherein you said that Grand Duke Paul and Princess Paley had a house in France were they lived while in exile, but could return after the revolution. I am sure that you meant Princess Paley could return there as Grand Duke Paul was murdered in January 1919 outside the Fortress of St. Peter and Paul.

Did Princess Paley have the funds to return to their house or was she as destitute as most exiles?

As to Marie Pavlovna, I didn't like her much when I first read about her, but over the years, I have come to see her a little differently. I don't think I would have liked to have to fight against her as Alexandra did.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 25, 2012, 01:07:35 AM
Yes. I meant unlike most Romanov who rented villas, Grand Duke Paul & Princess Paley bought the house in Paris and used it as his principle residence in exile. When he and his family were allowed to return to Russia. Grand Duke Paul sent most of his art collection and furniture back to Russia, leaving the Paris house almost bare. Grand Duchess Marie Paulovna the younger wrote about the place extensively in her memoirs "A Princess In Exile". Eventually Princess Paley sold the big house and use the proceeds to live and purchase a smaller apartment with her surviving daughters. 

Miechen also bought property outside of Russia. She actually died in her own house in Contrexeville, France. 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Stardust on September 26, 2012, 08:28:37 AM
Read the book " Flight of the Romanovs"  few years back.  If I can remember.... it said that Maria Pavlovna had affairs with young guards and that her liaison included a Grand Duke.  I know that this could be rumors,  but the question is did she have affairs?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 26, 2012, 10:14:26 AM
Not quite sure. Highly unlikely with a common guard. Miechen is no Maria Christina of Spain (mother of Isabel II of Spain). She might with a grand duke.  However I think her overriding passion was power, money and intrigue. romance did not seem to be part pf her equation.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Brassov on September 27, 2012, 08:12:23 AM
I have now found quite a bit about the Palace in Contrexeville on Google. It is a really beautiful palace. Seeing all of this one wonders if they were really battling so much financially. Probably by their standards they were. She probably had a lot more than most of the others.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 27, 2012, 08:50:27 AM
Miechen had always been a very wealthy woman since her marriage. She also did financial deals to increase her holdings. No wonder the Vladimirs were the most wealthy of the Grand Ducal couple in Russia.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on September 27, 2012, 04:49:41 PM
some more photos of Marie. Some may be repeats but I hope these are of better quality.

(http://i49.tinypic.com/35259o6.jpg)

(http://i49.tinypic.com/515y.jpg)

(http://i50.tinypic.com/2s6lx11.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 27, 2012, 04:53:07 PM
omg! where did you get those??!?! awesome thank you :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: katmaxoz on September 27, 2012, 04:55:00 PM
omg! where did you get those??!?! awesome thank you :)

Surfing around on the net. A lucky find.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Sara Araújo on September 28, 2012, 11:16:52 AM
Maria Vladimirovna hunting:

(http://imageshack.us/a/img839/2588/20080408k1resize.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/839/20080408k1resize.jpg/)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 28, 2012, 12:37:10 PM
personally i wouldnt trust that grand duchess with a gun.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 30, 2012, 02:44:56 PM
I agree with you. She could be deadly...at least capable of...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: ashanti01 on September 26, 2013, 02:13:34 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Maria/gdmarpav_zps94d5de30.jpg)
Grand Duchess Maria

 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 27, 2013, 12:57:38 AM
Miechen wearing her engagement gift of 6 strand pearls that every Romanov brides got.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-elder, wife of GD Wladimir
Post by: Valmont on September 11, 2015, 04:55:55 PM
Does anyone know if any of her diaries has come out yet ???