Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: Svetabel on December 26, 2008, 04:39:39 AM

Title: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 26, 2008, 04:39:39 AM
  I am starting a thread on Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch, eldest son of GD Konstantin K., famous KR. One can say there’s no need in creating one more “Konstantinovitch” topic as the whole thread on all the Konstantinovitchi exists but it’s too large now and contains mainly photos.
The reason here for me is like that:
Recently I’ve came across the correspondence between GD Konstantin K. and his firstborn son Prince Ioann. The letters are of 1903-1914 period and a very interesting source on Prince Ioann and his relations with the parents. In some of those letters Prince Ioann corresponded to both parents but the large part of the epistolary were letters to his father and they were the most confidential and honest.
   The letters were published in 2007 year in Russian, they had been preserved at the stock of GD Konstantin K., his spouse GD Elizaveta and Prince Ioann, at the Russian State Archives.

   I’m under strong impression of that rare source of info on Prince Ioann and that’s why: Ioann is not a well-known person for modern readers of the Romanov family history. Even in the very good “Gilded Prism” I’ve not found much on the firstborn child of GD Konstantin.
   Only those few letters bring a part of Ioann’s character to the light as actually the common opinion on him is that he was a deeply religious man with the bad health (as many of the Konstantinovitchi) and inclination to be a monk. He was plain and somewhat ugly, discreet person with quiet and shy manners, so many people didn’t know what’s on his heart and in his head throughout his boyhood, teens and youthful years.
   He adored his parents and siblings, was deeply attached to home and friends and at the same time he was a lone figure saying sadly that everybody imagines him like “a little idiot” because of his shyness and religiosity. Ioann was a great fiend with his brother Gavriil, they shared a nursery, then a schoolroom and lone years in Livadia in 1903-1905 where they were sent to strengthen their health. They lived there far away from home and the large family, and Prince Ioann continuously begged his parents to visit them more often but Pa and Ma always were too busy (and had time to go to some relatives in Germany though). Ioann and Gavriil were really close but very different in characters: Gavriil ended as a society person and later kept a company of “fast” people including Mathilda Kschesinskaya (his 1st wife Antonina was Mathilda’s friend).
Ioann was quite the opposite person.

   The letters can be sorted as 2 periods: 1903-1908 and 1909-1913.
   Ioann’s letters of 1903-1908 years sound like reports of a teenager to his strict father: Prince tells about his lessons, teachers, he promises to study better and never to pain his parents and admits his laziness and inability to learn foreign languages (for some years Ioann was struggling with his bad French and German). GD Konstantin K., in his turn, as a careful father instructs Ioann to study better, behave presentably and so on and such like – all in all we can see that he speaks to his firstborn and 1st heir expecting much from him and never indulging. And obedient Ioann never forgets about the duty of the heir even signing his letters to parents as “Your firstborn, Ioannchik”. He tries to be equal to their expectations and repeats almost every time that he is very grateful to them for the upbringing and education (and sometimes he bitterly admits that he don’t know much about real life, the life out of the Romanov gilded cage).
   In 1909-1910 years the tune of the Prince’s letters changed. Ioann has became a young man, he wants to speak to his father as an adult and equal, he repeatedly writes: “you know that I am like you, I am similar to you, you must understand me”. Those frank letters are just a cry of a lonely man whom the parents had never indulged, never showed extra tenderness, who was used to a company of tutors, teachers, books and the deep faith in God.
  As early as in 1904 Ioann for the 1st time wrote to father his thoughts about possible marriage and described in detail how he saw his marital life, talked about the rooms of his own future family in the Marble palace and in Pavlovsk. Of course GD Konstantin answered that all the plans were too early as the marriage in 18 years old was out of question. Till 1910 Prince Ioann from time to time returns to the marital discussions (and every time about marriage to some commoner) and GD Konstantin turns his son down. Seems Ioann had an amorous disposition or was too naïve and a soft mark who languished for love and tenderness. One of his 1st loves/crushes was GDss Olga Nikolayevna (eldest daughter of Emperor Nicholas II) who caught his imagination after Tsesarevitch Alexei’s christening in 1904 (Olga was 9 years then, and Ioann was 18). Other crushes of Prince were commoners and sometimes married women.
   All his feelings Ioann confides to father and GD always admonishes his son not to be in a hurry, to think twice and never forget that Ioann is a Prince and the Romanov offspring…After all in 1910 GD Konstantin received a carefully worded letter and in fact a disconsolate cry and confession from Ioann. Some lines from it: “I really need a sweet women’s little heart to warm me”, “Uncle is a monk is his soul and will never understand me” [Uncle is GD Dmitriy K. who loved his nieces and nephews as if they were his children]. In the end Ioann declared that he had kissed women, brought them to his place and then discoursed with them and persuaded to live in high morality. He pointed out that he never had sex and had made vow to do such things only with his wife…
  So, while GDsses Olga and Tatiana, daughters of Nicholas II, were giggling at Ioann’s engagement to Elena of Serbia and wondering how would he kiss, Prince Ioann itself was a really happy guy who finally find a proper bride (with the help of his mother though).
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 26, 2008, 04:41:28 AM
Prince Ioann's short  bio:
Born  July 5 1886 in Pavlovsk, 1st child (son) of GD Kosntantin Konstantinovicth (1858-1915) and GDss Elizaveta Mavrikievna (born Princess of Saxe-Altenburg). Married in 1911 Princess Elena of Serbia. Murdered July 18 1918 in Alapaevsk.



Those new publications of the correspondence of some less known Romanovs are such a great source that one only can imagine the tons of information (preserved in the Archives), which gather dust at the stocks and wait for a biographer and publisher…

If someone got interested in Prince Ioann’s correspondence after my opus on him : )) then I can translate some of his letters and post here.

Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on December 26, 2008, 06:37:26 AM
Hi,Svetabel,I think that you have started a great thread because we don't know that much about lesser known royals and Romanovs...I am very interested in knowing something about early loves of Prince Ioann(were they all commoners apart from GD Olga),also interested if there are some infos about his relations to other Romanov cousins or some foreign ones(did he even know them considering he spent most of his time in Livadia and did he correspond with them) and I am also interested in his marriage,who arranged it,why and did he know his wife before etc.

Sorry for so many thing that interest me,but you seem to be the only source I have,apart from the few ones in books where he was just mentioned...Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 26, 2008, 08:09:24 AM
At once I can answer that Ioann's marriage was an arranged one actually. Grand Duchess Elizaveta, his mother, offered Elena of Serbia as a possible future wife, then the meeting was arranged between young people, Ioann was enchanted by Elena's charm and they got engaged.

Of course careful parents after such bitter letters from their son (see my previous post) finally made a decision to find him a wife before he would involved in some unsuitable alliance with a commoner - he was their firstborn and heir after all. Princess Elena was one of the best choices - she was an Orthodox (don't forget Ioann was deeply religiuos) and from a friendly Royal house.
Seems they were happy together and Elena did her best to help Ioann in the tumultiuos 1917-1918 years.

More info is coming...:))
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on December 26, 2008, 07:08:05 PM
Can't wait!Thank you Sveta :-)
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 27, 2008, 01:53:43 AM
As for "loves" of Prince Ioann before his marriage.

 In November 1909 Ioann wrote the letter, that cry of a lone man, to his father and mentioned almost all his crushes: GDss Olga Nikolayevna, then some Marie, then Countess Marina Palen (married woman, I’ve not found her in the Palen genealogy though), then some Tanya (who later married and Ioann suffered because of that), then Olga Nikolaevna Philosophova (maid-of-honour of GDss Maria Georgievna). The last was more a friend though. In the same letter Ioann admitted that he still had a dearest dream to marry GDss Olga. In a year later he said that her parents wolud never permit such a marriage.

Then the last mention of a commoner. Lyubov Alexandrovna Narishkina (1890-1967) , who later married in 1914 Prince Sergei Alexandrovitch Obolenskiy (1879-1960), and they had 6 children (the family emigrated and lived in England and France). Prince Ioann told about Lyubochka December 1910 and pointed out that she was a quiet shy girl , and for 1st time a girl fell in love with him, usually Ioann himself had found an object for adoration. Prince wrote to father he felt that he would love Lyubochka more and more and asked for fatherly blessing and stressed that Tatiana (his sister) had been permitted to marry Prince Bagration so why not Ioann could be permitted to marry Narishkina. GD Konstantin answered that the question of Tatiana and Bagration had not been solved yet and reproached his son for his warm temperament.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on December 27, 2008, 04:25:26 AM
Interesting about his loves...even though his loves were mostly commoners,they did come from the same social circle as he did...If there was a Marie von der Pahlen,she would be a Countess,Narishkina a Princess etc.,so not that they were that common...I wonder why he thought that he wouldn't be premitted a marriage with GD Olga...Because he was only a Prince of the Imperial blood or...?I once read somewhere that her parents wanted her to stay in Russia,so he would be an ideal choice....he was a Russian subject,he was Prince of Russia,he was of equal birth and he was really in love with Olga...
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: violetta on December 27, 2008, 06:37:54 AM
I would like to say a few words about Elena Petrovna, Ioann`s wife. They had 2 children, Vsevolod and Ekaterina. Elena Petrovna followed him to exile, to Siberia. A few days after the murder in Alapaevsk, she went back to Petrograd to pick up her kids from her mother-in-law, Elizaveta Mavrikievna. On her way back she was arrested, and she spent in jail the rest of 1918. Then she somehow managed to get to Sweden where her mother-in-law and children were waiting for her. She took her kids to Serbia, then to France and thrn to England. Elena Petrocna died in 1972 in France. She and her family suffered so much during the revolution and the civil war that she didn`t want her children to speak and know Russian. Vsevolod Ioannovich was married 3 times but he died childless. he died  in 1973
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on December 27, 2008, 08:06:07 AM
She was helped by Serbian ambassador in St.Peterburg Miroslav Spalajkovic,who was a friend of my great-great grandfather...she was of course helped with knowing of the Bolsheviks who didn't want to ruin diplomatic realations with the Kingdom of Serbia because of one person who happened to be the daughter of a King...She than moved to Serbia with some other Konstantinovich relations where the son of her brother Prince Tomislav first fell in love with Elena's nephew in law Princess Natalia Bagration-Mukhranska...She didn't have good relations with her brother,the new King after her father died and that's why she moved later to France and England...
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 29, 2008, 01:03:54 AM
Interesting about his loves...even though his loves were mostly commoners,they did come from the same social circle as he did...If there was a Marie von der Pahlen,she would be a Countess,Narishkina a Princess etc.,so not that they were that common...I wonder why he thought that he wouldn't be premitted a marriage with GD Olga...Because he was only a Prince of the Imperial blood or...?I once read somewhere that her parents wanted her to stay in Russia,so he would be an ideal choice....he was a Russian subject,he was Prince of Russia,he was of equal birth and he was really in love with Olga...

In the eyes of the Imperial Laws Lyubov Narishkina or Marina von der Palen were commoners , even though they were from the same social circle as Ioann...As for GDss Olga I can't say exactly why he thought he wouldn't be permitted to marry her but Empress Alexandra F. was definitely convinced that all the Konstantinovitchi, though good boys, had very weak health (and she was right in fact). Possibly Ioann thought Olga didn't like him or who knows...at least GD Konstantin K, responding to that letter of his son, said nothing on the reason "why woudn't be permitted".
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 29, 2008, 02:55:50 AM
also interested if there are some infos about his relations to other Romanov cousins or some foreign ones(did he even know them considering he spent most of his time in Livadia and did he correspond with them)

As for Ioann's relations with his cousins seems he was on good terms with the family of his maternal Aunt Furstin Marianne of Schaumburg-Lippe who was very close to her sister GDss Elizaveta M. and kind and soft woman (at least Ioann thought so). Apart that there's no much mention in Ioann's letters about his cousins and relatives except his close family.

The publication of Ioann's epistolary contains 2-3 letters of Princess Tatiana (his sister) to him. From those correspondence one can draw a conclusion that the Konstantinovitchi were all really close to the Schaumburg-Lippe family and Duchess Adelheid (spouse of Ernst, brother of GDss Elizaveta M.). At the same time the relations with maternal grandparents were somewhat strained esp. with Duchess Augusta, mother of GD Elizaveta. As Princess Tatiana put it in her letter to Ioann: "How is Omama? She definitely tried to be tremendously polite and careful...But Aunty must be liked by you more [Marianne]...she knows our life better".

Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on December 29, 2008, 05:38:52 AM
''She definitely tried to be tremendously polite and careful...''

This sentence also sound like Tatiana tried to be tremendously polite and careful even in her letter towards her grandmother...Maybe off-topic but do you know something more about her grandmother and her relations with her daughter and her grandchildren?
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 29, 2008, 06:02:00 AM
''She definitely tried to be tremendously polite and careful...''

This sentence also sound like Tatiana tried to be tremendously polite and careful even in her letter towards her grandmother...Maybe off-topic but do you know something more about her grandmother and her relations with her daughter and her grandchildren?

From those sources I've ever read/seen I deduced that relations were not very good. I'd say grandparents Moritz and Augusta weren't close to their Russian grandchildren, as they obviuosly didn't understand Russian ways of life and proobaly had been against Konstantin/Elizaveta marriage.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on December 29, 2008, 06:02:45 PM
Was their marriage aranged by Alexandra Iosifovna?

Does Ioann mention or share some thoughts about some other Romanov cousins apart of Konstantinovich branch and OTMA?Michailovich,Nicholaievich or Vladimirovich...?
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 30, 2008, 12:42:54 AM
Was their marriage aranged by Alexandra Iosifovna?

Does Ioann mention or share some thoughts about some other Romanov cousins apart of Konstantinovich branch and OTMA?Michailovich,Nicholaievich or Vladimirovich...?

You are correct about GD AI's part in arranging her son's marriage but we don't know for sure what was going one there and how all was arranging.


As for mentioning the other Romanov relatives in his correspondence Ioann says about GDsses Militza and Stana in 1905 year - when Stana attended exams of Gavriil and Ioann in Livadia and then brought them at first news of their infant sister Natalia's birth and then  her death. Ioann points out that Aunt Stana was sweetness and sympathy herself.
Interesting note on GDss Olga Alexandrovna (sister of Nicholas II) I've found in a letter of 1908 year. Ioann tells his father that he visited Olga Alexandrovna but couldn't be at her place long as the manners of Colonel Kulikovskiy were disgusting for Ioann's eye. Actually Colonel just frequently looked into Olga's eyes and it was evident he was in love with her.

Apart that there are no special thoughts and opinions on the other Romanovs. Just brief notes whom he met, where he's been and such like.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Teddy on December 30, 2008, 02:14:14 AM
Dear Svevtabel, is there an oppurtunity to email the publisher or writer?
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 30, 2008, 02:44:25 AM
The correspondence has been published in the Almanach "Russian Archive", I've not seen there any reference to e-mail.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 30, 2008, 02:52:14 AM
It's quite interesting that GD Konstantin K. from time to time said to his wife that Ioann was like him and was the most similar to him in nature. The most common opinion is/was that Prince Oleg, the most talented son, was like GD KR, but KR itself admitted to some courtier Oleg was only similar to him in his poetic experiences but Ioann had the same as father's uneasy and turbulent character.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on December 30, 2008, 06:16:44 AM
Are there any mention of his children?They were too young when he died but did he mention what kind of mother and father were Princess Elena and him?
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on January 02, 2009, 10:23:24 AM
Are there any mention of his children?They were too young when he died but did he mention what kind of mother and father were Princess Elena and him?

There are few letters of Ioann's 1912-1915 period. Most of the epistolary from these years are telegrams to father/mother/brothers. He doesn't say anything important about his wife or children, just asks his parents to look after them and thanks for parents' concern about Elena and children.
So this guise of Ioann (father and husband) is not clear from the lines.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on January 02, 2009, 11:29:42 AM
Too bad...he seems like he would be a great father(maybe I am wrong) concerning all what have I read so far about him...and a good husband,devoted to his wife,unlike his father :-)
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on January 06, 2009, 09:56:54 AM
Interesting about his loves...even though his loves were mostly commoners,they did come from the same social circle as he did...If there was a Marie von der Pahlen,she would be a Countess,Narishkina a Princess etc.,so not that they were that common...I wonder why he thought that he wouldn't be premitted a marriage with GD Olga...Because he was only a Prince of the Imperial blood or...?I once read somewhere that her parents wanted her to stay in Russia,so he would be an ideal choice....he was a Russian subject,he was Prince of Russia,he was of equal birth and he was really in love with Olga...

In the eyes of the Imperial Laws Lyubov Narishkina or Marina von der Palen were commoners , even though they were from the same social circle as Ioann...As for GDss Olga I can't say exactly why he thought he wouldn't be permitted to marry her but Empress Alexandra F. was definitely convinced that all the Konstantinovitchi, though good boys, had very weak health (and she was right in fact). Possibly Ioann thought Olga didn't like him or who knows...at least GD Konstantin K, responding to that letter of his son, said nothing on the reason "why woudn't be permitted".

Back to question with GDss Olga N.  I've reread Ioann's letters to his mother and found the lines with Prince's  bitter words that he wil never marry Olga as SHE [Olga] is the TZAR's daughter (so he considers himself far beneath her) and if he ever try to do a step with proposal everyone will blame the family of GD Konstantin in scheming and intruguing.

I must say that Ioann's correspondence with his mother, GDss Elizaveta M., is very tender in tune. He definitely adored her much, was obedient and careful son, and confided some love secrets to mother.  By the way in 1904 when he had wrote to father about his desire to marry Ioann told to mother that he was reading Tourgenev and some Russian literature and (as Prince put it) all those books were about marriage! So that's why he began to think about his own family nest : )
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2009, 09:00:30 PM
Poor Ioann,I think he would be a great match for GD Olga if she wanted to stay in Russia and not marrying foreign royal...of course in that case her choice of equal husbands would be some Prince von Oldenburg,Prince von Leuchtenberg or some cousin Prince of blood...don't think there were any other ''foreign'' equal princes living in Russia!
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on May 27, 2009, 06:59:27 AM
As for "loves" of Prince Ioann before his marriage.


Then the last mention of a commoner. Lyubov Alexandrovna Narishkina (1890-1967) , who later married in 1914 Prince Sergei Alexandrovitch Obolenskiy (1879-1960), and they had 6 children (the family emigrated and lived in England and France). Prince Ioann told about Lyubochka December 1910 and pointed out that she was a quiet shy girl , and for 1st time a girl fell in love with him, usually Ioann himself had found an object for adoration. Prince wrote to father he felt that he would love Lyubochka more and more and asked for fatherly blessing and stressed that Tatiana (his sister) had been permitted to marry Prince Bagration so why not Ioann could be permitted to marry Narishkina. GD Konstantin answered that the question of Tatiana and Bagration had not been solved yet and reproached his son for his warm temperament.


Here's the last "Ioann's girl"  in question, Lyubov Alexandrovna Narishkina:

(http://www.picatom.com/z/ljubain19090uy-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/z/ljubain19090uy-1.html)

(courtesy of Vera_Narishkin)

And where do you think I find this rare picture?? At the Yusupov subforum here at the AP Forums! While browsing very old topis I've dug out the photo which had been posted by Vera_Narishkin, niece of Lyubov Alexandrovna... It's just an ironic smile at me as I've been trying to fish up Narishkina's image in any place - I-net, volumes of Russian Nobility and so on : )...and finally...
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on May 27, 2009, 09:21:21 AM
Great find...I wonder what kind of answer would Ioann get if he really wanted to marry her...Narishkin family is an old noble family...maybe not former ruling like Bagration,but respected in Russian nobility...I would say she was not a ''complete'' commoner and yet a commoner in royal terms...something likethe case of  Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukaya...
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on May 27, 2009, 12:39:06 PM
Great find...I wonder what kind of answer would Ioann get if he really wanted to marry her...Narishkin family is an old noble family...maybe not former ruling like Bagration,but respected in Russian nobility...I would say she was not a ''complete'' commoner and yet a commoner in royal terms...something likethe case of  Princess Ekaterina Dolgorukaya...

Moreover the Narishkins are Romanovs' relatives, as Peter the Great's mother was Narishkina... I think Ioann was not so much in love into Lyubov Alexandrovna as he pointed out that was she who had a crush on him. Seemes he just jumped at the idea of marriage with that girl becouse he was eager for love and family life. Also he wrote to father that he would intend to wait for a year (!!!) as he wanted Lyuba  love him more and deeper.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Anekezout on March 13, 2010, 09:45:46 AM
Hi Svetabel
I'm very interesting about the letters of my grand-father. If it possible please send a example of his handwriting.
Thank you very much
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on March 15, 2010, 05:53:58 AM
Hi Svetabel
I'm very interesting about the letters of my grand-father. If it possible please send a example of his handwriting.
Thank you very much

I PM'd you.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Anekezout on March 17, 2010, 10:46:11 AM
thank you very much Svetabel. I dont understand russian but I try to search anyone to help me.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: matushka on April 07, 2010, 05:50:22 AM
Svetabel, Could you give us the exact references of the book, I would like to read and have it, if only I can find it. Is there anything in the letters about the relationship beetwen Ioann Konstantinovitch and Elisabeth Feodorovna?
It is interesting that Ioann's brother Konstantin also pretended to Olga Nicholaevna's hand...
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on April 08, 2010, 01:55:49 AM
Svetabel, Could you give us the exact references of the book, I would like to read and have it, if only I can find it. Is there anything in the letters about the relationship beetwen Ioann Konstantinovitch and Elisabeth Feodorovna?
It is interesting that Ioann's brother Konstantin also pretended to Olga Nicholaevna's hand...

Seems to me any Romanov of Olga N.'s age pretended to her hand : ).

The book with Ioann's letters is almanach "Russian Archive". I pm'd you the references.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Inok Nikolai on February 07, 2012, 05:42:12 PM
1)
In her letter to Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna, of February 6/19, 1918, written from Tobolsk, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna informs her that:

"...Elena [Princess Elena Petrovna of Serbia] occasionally writes.  She said that Marya and Gulia [Prince S. M. Putiatin and his wife, Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna, the Younger]  are going to have a little one, and Aunt Mavra [Grand Duchess Elizabeth Mavrikievna] announced that 'Ioanchik' [Prince John Constantinovich] was made a subdeacon, and it seems will proceed further in clerical rank. He is terribly pleased, but his wife does not approve. I can understand how she must feel. It seems to me that to be a priest’s wife, a matushka, would not be very merry." 

******************

2)
As most of you know, in the Orthodox Church, the parish clergy — deacons and priests — are married. Monks and bishops take a vow of celibacy.
So the fact that Pr. John was married would not have been an impediment to his being ordained a priest.

3)
Then, in July 2008, a Russian priest posted this intriguing excerpt on a Yahoo Group that discusses church matters.

 "Addendum to Tserkovnie Vedomosti, No. 708, March 2/15, 1918, p. 329:

"On March 3, in the St. John Convent on Karpovka [where St. John of Kronstadt is buried in St. Petersburg], during the Divine Liturgy, Prince Ioann Konstantinovich was ordained to the Diaconate. On the following Sunday he was elevated to the rank of priest.”

"Ioann Konstantinovitch is married to the Montenegrin Princess Elena Petrovna, whom he is divorcing, accepting monastic tonsure, and will become, as is expected, elevated to the rank of bishop."

*******************

Of course, Pr. Elena was Serbian, not Montenegrin, and it is highly unlikely that Pr. John was planning to divorce her in order to become a bishop — after all, they still had small children.

Which leaves us all wondering: Is the first part of this announcement, placed in the official publication of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, accurate?

It seems odd that neither of Prince John's sisters, Abbess Tamara and Pr. Vera, ever mentioned that their martyred brother was a priest. But, then again, Prince John's wife and mother are cited by Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna as her source for this information.

The priest who originally posted that excerpt in 2008 asked for confirmation or futher details from anyone who might know more about this matter, but, to this day, it doesn't seem that anyone has come forward to add to the tale.

Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Inok Nikolai on February 08, 2012, 08:21:03 AM

 "Addendum to Tserkovnie Vedomosti, No. 708, March 2/15, 1918, p. 329:

"On March 3, in the St. John Convent on Karpovka [where St. John of Kronstadt is buried in St. Petersburg], during the Divine Liturgy, Prince Ioann Konstantinovich was ordained to the Diaconate. On the following Sunday he was elevated to the rank of priest.”

"Ioann Konstantinovitch is married to the Montenegrin Princess Elena Petrovna, whom he is divorcing, accepting monastic tonsure, and will become, as is expected, elevated to the rank of bishop."


PS: I forgot to say:

I trust that that Russian priest copied the above citation correctly, but still it would be good to see a copy of the actual entry. So far I have not been able to locate a copy of that issue of Tserkovnie Vedomosti — either printed or on line. Owing to the Revolution and civil war perhaps not many copies made it abroad. If any of our readers in Russia, or abroad, is able to furnish a copy of that issue of T. V., it would be most appreciated.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Nikl on May 25, 2013, 04:03:34 AM
Could somebody please tell me, who is infant sister Natalia?

...when Stana attended exams of Gavriil and Ioann in Livadia and then brought them at first news of their infant sister Natalia's birth and then her death ...
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on May 25, 2013, 09:21:21 AM
Could somebody please tell me, who is infant sister Natalia?

...when Stana attended exams of Gavriil and Ioann in Livadia and then brought them at first news of their infant sister Natalia's birth and then her death ...

The second daughter of GD Konstantin K., she was born in 1905 and died the same year.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: blessOTMA on May 25, 2013, 10:14:54 AM
What a wonderful thread, thank you for starting it. I always had a soft spot for Ioann and  Elena . While everyone is laughing, Ioann and  Elena of Serbia had the last laugh because  they  knew great  happiness together.

Sometimes  shyness is hiding an ardent heart . From what you have posted, we know  Ioann had a lifetime of tenderness stored up to give by the time of his marriage . Though  arranged  they made  their marriage their own.  It is a  powerful love story  set in a time of  great tragedy  and I hope it's written  about fully some day.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Nikl on May 25, 2013, 12:05:50 PM
Could somebody please tell me, who is infant sister Natalia?

...when Stana attended exams of Gavriil and Ioann in Livadia and then brought them at first news of their infant sister Natalia's birth and then her death ...

The second daughter of GD Konstantin K., she was born in 1905 and died the same year.
Thank you very much for your quik answer :)
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Grandoffsky on January 10, 2018, 03:15:13 AM
Starting my journey on this forum by trying to revive an ancient thread. Anyway, my question is whether there are any letters to and by Prince Ioann regarding the assassination of his Uncle GD Serge Alexandrovich in 1905? I know I have read letters on the subject exchanged between K.R. and his son Prince Gavriil, and, if I remember correctly (I can't find the letters anymore), there was a reference to a letter to Prince Ioann as well.

ETA: Or, if there are any other references to GD Serge Alexandrovich, it would be very interesting to find out.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on January 13, 2018, 03:51:04 AM
Prince Ioann discussed the assasination of GD Sergei in the letters with his father and sister Tatiana. The correspondence has been published recently in Russian in a serie of books on the family of GD Konstantin K.  The book on Ioann's correspondebce is :

http://minuvshee.com/knyaz_ioann_k_1886-1918 (http://minuvshee.com/knyaz_ioann_k_1886-1918)
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Grandoffsky on January 13, 2018, 03:59:00 AM
Prince Ioann discussed the assasination of GD Sergei in the letters with his father and sister Tatiana. The correspondence has been published recently in Russian in a serie of books on the family of GD Konstantin K.  The book on Ioann's correspondebce is :

http://minuvshee.com/knyaz_ioann_k_1886-1918 (http://minuvshee.com/knyaz_ioann_k_1886-1918)

Thank You very much for the link, I have been considering buying some of the books of the Konstantinovichi series for some time now and seems that it's about time. I have already found his letters to his father and mother around the time, and I know that he mentioned there that he wrote in detail about how he found out about the assassination to his sister Tatiana.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Joanna on January 15, 2018, 08:05:43 PM
my question is whether there are any letters to and by Prince Ioann regarding the assassination of his Uncle GD Serge Alexandrovich in 1905?

This is the only letter I could find by Prince John to his father regarding Sergei's death. He was living and studying in Livadia during this time.

Livadia.  March 13, 1905
My dear Dad!
... Firstly, I thank you very much for the calendar and sincerely ask you to forgive me for not responding for a long time.  Secondly, dear Uncle Sergei!  I think a lot about You this time.  Did you see the parts of the body that remained of him or not?  (I skip the question of who you learned about the demise, because you already wrote).  I write to You, because I know how You loved the deceased and then to pour out my soul for repentance.  Uncle's death made a great impression on me.  Let me, please, skip the fact, how we found out about it, because I write about it in detail to Tuske...

Joanna


Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Grandoffsky on January 16, 2018, 04:09:21 AM
my question is whether there are any letters to and by Prince Ioann regarding the assassination of his Uncle GD Serge Alexandrovich in 1905?

This is the only letter I could find by Prince John to his father regarding Sergei's death. He was living and studying in Livadia during this time.

Livadia.  March 13, 1905
My dear Dad!
... Firstly, I thank you very much for the calendar and sincerely ask you to forgive me for not responding for a long time.  Secondly, dear Uncle Sergei!  I think a lot about You this time.  Did you see the parts of the body that remained of him or not?  (I skip the question of who you learned about the demise, because you already wrote).  I write to You, because I know how You loved the deceased and then to pour out my soul for repentance.  Uncle's death made a great impression on me.  Let me, please, skip the fact, how we found out about it, because I write about it in detail to Tuske...

Joanna

Thank You very much. So I wonder if this Tuska (Туська) is his sister Tatiana?

I have been doing some research on this (as much as internet lets me) and in addition to the letter you so kindly posted, there is also a letter from Ioann to his mother (or both parents) from 20th February 1905.
 
(which I found here :
http://www.runivers.ru/new_htmlreader/?book=5607&chapter=84148 (http://www.runivers.ru/new_htmlreader/?book=5607&chapter=84148)).

Does anyone know if Ioann's mentioned letter to Tatiana is in the book Svetabel mentioned? I would love to read it.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: tanolic on December 16, 2018, 03:38:57 PM
Sorry to be late to this party, but I just came across this thread recently. Does anyone know if Ioann's letters have been translated into English, and if so, where I might find them? I don't speak or read Russian, but I'm quite interested in reading these letters!

Thanks so much!
Tamar
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Svetabel on December 18, 2018, 08:54:43 AM
Sorry to be late to this party, but I just came across this thread recently. Does anyone know if Ioann's letters have been translated into English, and if so, where I might find them? I don't speak or read Russian, but I'm quite interested in reading these letters!

Thanks so much!
Tamar

No, the letters has not been translated into English. Only Russian publication.
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: tanolic on December 18, 2018, 10:24:49 AM
Oh, well. Thank you for the reply!
Title: Re: Prince Ioann Konstantinovitch (1886-1918) - letters
Post by: Marc on December 20, 2018, 02:57:07 AM
Does anybody know, who had precedence in Imperial court?

Did Princess Elena had precedence over all Princes/Princesses of blood(styled as HH) as the only member of the Imperial family who was still HRH after her marriage or was she treated as wife of HH?