Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) => Topic started by: Laurie Toth on March 31, 2004, 05:25:16 PM

Title: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laurie Toth on March 31, 2004, 05:25:16 PM
 I find the story of little Elizabeth - the daughter of Ernie and Ducky so tragic and sad.  Is there a book written about her or more info?? Do the archives in Darmstadt have any of her things, ie: clothing, toys, schoolwork,diaries, etc.??
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on March 31, 2004, 05:35:50 PM
I agree, Laurie--I would also like to learn more about little Elizabeth.  The dual bio of Victoria and Ernie has some information, but perhaps more exists. As you may have discovered via this website or elsewhere, the Grand Duchess Olga Nicholievna and Elizabeth were playmates, and her death came as a terrible shock to Olga.  Added to that, of course, is the tragedy of Elizabeth being the product of an unhappy marriage--and one that, rather than being hushed up, became known as such, and eventuated in divorce.  A rarity for those times, and it cannot have have failed to leave its mark on the little girl.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Louise on March 31, 2004, 05:40:54 PM
I have just read that this boards very own Penny Wilson and Greg King are working on a biography of GD Ernest of Hesse. I'm sure that they will include the sunshine of his life, Elizabeth.

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Jane on March 31, 2004, 05:48:42 PM
I can't really add much beyond what Janet and Louise have indicated, Laurie.  There are two biographies of Elisabeth's mother, Victoria Melita, that I know of, and of course you are probably already aware of both of them: John van der Kiste's "Princess Victoria Melita" and Michael John Sullivan's "A Fatal Passion."  Little Elisabeth always appears, in photos I've seen of her, to be such a lovely little girl, and I am sure had she survived into adulthood, she would have continued the line of beautiful Hessian princesses.  I hope you are able to find out more information on her.

Jane
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on March 31, 2004, 05:58:40 PM
Actually, I meant dual bio of Victoria and Kyril.

Also, didn't know about van der Kiste's bio of Victoria--thank you,  Jane!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Louise on March 31, 2004, 06:06:43 PM
Ditto on the thank you about the bio of "Ducky" by van der Kiste. Was there ever any resolution or theory on how she came to be called "Ducky"?

Louise
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Jane on March 31, 2004, 06:35:04 PM
I am still at a loss about how Ducky got her nickname!  

I haven't yet read the Van der Kiste book, it was in my latest Amazon shipment ($ cha-ching for Nick, Greg, and Penny, too $), so I will let everyone know if he sheds any light on the mystery after I receive/read it. The Sullivan biography didn't have any information (that I recall).  To heck with DNA results, etc...what I want to know is how did Ducky come by her nickname?

Jane
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Louise on March 31, 2004, 06:40:29 PM
It cracks me up all the neat family nicknames in the royal families of Europe. Nelly 1 & 2, Baby Bee, Ducky, Affie, Pitz, Nix, and the list goes on.

Louise
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Jane on March 31, 2004, 06:52:35 PM
Oh yes!!!  Me three!

And I love the Battenberg brothers (Hessians, bless 'em so we're in the right folder  :D)--Liko, Sandro, Franzjos!  I read that Princes Alexander and Henry of Battenberg had an Italian nanny that called them Alessandro and Enrico, respectively, and "Liko" was the resulting bowdlerized nursery version.  

We are all compendiums of "useless" knowledge here.  Hurrah for us!

Jane
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: P. Kleinpenning on April 01, 2004, 02:12:44 AM
If you're looking for something on Elisabeth, you might find the following book interesting:
"Es war einmal" (Once upon a time...) by Georgina Freiin von Rotsmann, illustrated by Joseph Maria Olbrich, with a substantial epilogue by Carl Benno Heller. I have a copy published by Verlag zur Megede in Darmstadt in 1983. It's a fairy tale situated at the small play house (especially built for Elizabeth, if I'm correct) in the park of Schloss Wolfsgarten near Darmstadt. The park is opened to the public once a year - in May, I believe. (Hey, that makes a nice outing next month!) And if you're there, you could of course also visit Elizabeth's grave at the Rosenhoehe.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: P. Kleinpenning on April 01, 2004, 02:59:51 AM
I assume you've already read "Erinnertes", the reminiscences Ernie wrote down for his boys. My copy was published by Eduard Roether Verlag in 1983 in Darmstadt. It has just one page on Elisabeth, but it is of course nice to have Ernie's own words on her. If you're looking for more books on Elisabeth, you might consider contacting Buchhandlung Schlapp (bookshop), Schulstrasse 5, Darmstadt. They may be willing to state what books they have on her.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ilana on April 02, 2004, 12:09:05 PM
I was lucky enough to be guided around Wolfsgarten by Moritz von Hessen, and saw that lovely playhouse.  It is very sweet, as, frankly, is the entire house and property.  One of the senses one gets in walking around Darmstadt is that they really loved little Elizabeth, and were truly devastated at her death.  Her memorial in one of the Palais parks (can't remember the name) is completely poignant... it gives you a feeling that it happened just yesterday.

And, there is still resentment of Ducky!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on April 02, 2004, 11:55:09 PM
In one of the more recent issues of Majesty magazine (the one with Sophie Wessex and her new daughter on the cover) has a pretty decent article on Elisabeth. There isn't much new information, but there are quite a few charming photos (including one with her cousins Olga and Tatiana) and one of the marble angel Ernie had dedicated to her.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Penny_Wilson on April 03, 2004, 09:37:39 PM
That's my article on Elisabeth in Majesty.  She's rather a pet subject of mine -- and I was lucky enough to get to see her personal photo albums when I was at the Staatsarchiv in Darmstadt in the summer of 2000.  At that point in time, the archivists were only just beginning to archive the personal items of the Grand Ducal family that had arrived at the Staatsarchiv from Wolfsgarten in the wake of Princess Margaret's death.

We were, of course, researching Alexandra's early life, and the whole Anastasia issue, but I had asked Professor Franz about Elisabeth during the private interview that we had with him -- just as an aside, as we had been talking about Ernie and Anastasia.

A little later that day, when we were in the reading room going through some stuff, Prof. Franz arrived with an armload of "treats" for us -- wiring plans of the Neues Palais, which showed the floorplan that Greg had been interested in seeing, and Elizabeth's photo albums and postcard albums for me.  I couldn't tell you where to find them today in terms of call-numbers, as they were unarchived then, but I know that they are somewhere in the Staatsarchiv.

I learned quite a bit about her, for all that she only lived eight years -- and I look forward to including everything I know in our bio of Ernst-Ludwig, because she was so very important to his story.

There are loads of memorials to her in and around Darmstadt, one of which was raised right after her death by the children of Darmstadt, and is in the little park right being the Staatsarchiv building on the Karolinenplatz.  We were unfortunately unable to photograph it, because it was absolutely pouring with rain on our last day there, which was when we had planned on doing a lot of photography.  Wouldn't you know it?  Murphy's Law in action...  ::)

Edited to add: The Staatsarchiv had nothing about Sucky in their library until I handed over my copy of Sullivan's A Fatal Passion.  That always makes me smile -- that I made such a little contribution to poor Ducky's memory there...  :-*
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: P. Kleinpenning on April 04, 2004, 06:21:41 AM
According to Manfred Knodt, in his biography of Ernst Ludwig, Ernst Ludwig didn't want Elisabeth's jewellery to be used by anyone else. He had them incorporated in a chalice, a bible cover and a "Ampel" (my knowledge of German fails me here). The chalice was adorned with eight crosses and two birds and the text "Zum Preis Gottes meines Kindes Schmuck - Elisabeth - Ernst Ludwig". And in the Bible: "Als ewiges Andenken an meine geliebte Tochter Elisabeth vermache ich sie meinem Hessischen Haus. Sie ist nur an Karfreitag und sonst zu bestimmten Festtagen zu benutzen. Geschrieben zu Darmstadt Ostern 1904". The Bible is probably still in the possession of the Stadtkirche in Darmstadt.

Knodt also quotes a poem by Stefan George in memoriam Elisabeth, published in "Der Siebente Ring":

Durch schauervolle auch der seelen ferne fliegt
Des kindes trauer und des gartengangs gedenk
Der voll war von versteckten kindes anmut-lachen -
Dem nun verklungnen - kommt sie zu dem leeren haus.
Sie kann nicht mehr als tränen giessen über dich
Betrübteste der hände die mit einzigem recht
Zur klage bebt! und flüstern: Ist ein ding der welt
Noch trauriger als eines jungen traumes tod?


Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 05, 2004, 12:31:11 PM
Penny, thank you for both articles re: Elizabeth--on this website, and in Majesty magazine. And for those interested in Elizabeth, do check out each one, because although they relay much of the same info, they also have different organization and features.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laurie on April 09, 2004, 05:29:43 PM
Penny - Thanks for your note about little Elizabeth. I really enjoyed your article on her in MAJESTY.  I am glad to know there are things in Darmstadt that had belonged to her and are in the archives.  Maybe one day I will get there and be able to see them as well!
I look forward to your book!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Greg_King on April 12, 2004, 08:34:40 AM
Quote
I know above the door of little Elisabeth's dolls house at Wolfsgarten are some lines, i believe they are in verse.. does anyone know what they are, or who may have written them??? I wondered first of all whether they may have been written by Ernie, but im not sure. Would be so great to find out!!!

Elisa :)


The quote is “This Little House was Built Just for Me in the Year 1902.”  It was put up by Ernie before he first took Elisabeth to the forest to show her the house.

Greg King
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Penny_Wilson on April 12, 2004, 01:07:05 PM
I really like this little poem:

“You came, you went, with hardly a trace,
A fleeting guest on this earth.  
From where to where?  We only know:
From the hand of God to the hand of God.”

Ernie wrote it after Elisabeth's death, and it's posted inside the little house, under a portrait of Elisabeth that hangs in the little kitchen.  

I like the poem especially because it shows true depth of feeling without a lot of syrupy, saccharine sentiment...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Louise on April 13, 2004, 10:15:02 AM
Thanks for that info on the naming of Elizabeth. I'm delighted anytime I read that Victoria's children or grandchildren defied her in the naming of their children.

Louise
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: HRHLaurie1894 on April 16, 2004, 05:13:23 PM
Is there an English translation of the book "Erinnertes" by Grand Duck Ernie???  I would love to read that but do not understand German.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: HRHLaurie1894 on April 16, 2004, 05:43:00 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: jackie3 on April 19, 2004, 11:21:30 PM
I've only seen 2 pictures of Princess Elizabeth - one with her cousins Olga and Tatiana and one of her from a wide distance (kinda blurry) but am I the only one who sees more than a distinct resemblence facially with her grandmother, Princess Alice? I think they looked very much alike and agree if she had lived would have carried on the tradition of beautiful Hessian princesses. She seemed to have very deep eyes.

Her picture with the much fairer O+T remind me of the GDs pictures with their cousin Princess Irina (Xenia and Sandro's daughter) whose dark looks in comparison to the GDs appear very distinctive.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: HRHLaurie1894 on April 21, 2004, 05:45:39 PM
Where did you find the picture of Queen Victoria with her arm around little Elizabeth?  That is so touching - I would love to see that.  Are there any pictures of little Elizabeth with Alexandra?  What was Alexandra's relationship with little Elizabeth like?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 22, 2004, 07:46:26 PM
From what I remember, Ernie's and Victoria Melita's daughter was, like her aunt, also nicknamed Ella. She looked very much like her mother in the pictures I've seen of her.

There is a memoir somewhere on this site written by one of the Grand Duchesses' nannies that described how the girls nearly burned down the nursery while Ella was staying with her cousins. There was a childish misunderstanding about what would cause a fire and what wouldn't. How terrible that all three of those children would die so young. I don't believe in family curses, but the fate of the Hesse family does make you wonder, doesn't it?

I've always thought this poor child's life was indescribably sad. She was a child of divorce, wrenched between two parents and at the center of a scandal. How unusual it was that her mother actually got something resembling shared custody. I would guess that commoners who left their husbands in that era would have lost all contact with their children. It made me wonder what kind of battle went on behind the scenes.

In some ways it's like her existence was an inconvenience that was rectified later. After her death, both parents remarried more suitable spouses and went on to have other children. Little Ella, the sole living reminder of the disastrous marriage and other family, was swept away as if she didn't exist.

Her father's anger at her mother kept him from notifying her of her illness until it was too late for Victoria Melita to reach her deathbed. How sad for that baby to die in pain and not to have both parents with her. What must she have been thinking? I wonder if Victoria Melita ever forgave Alexandra and Ernest.

Little Ella may have preferred her father, as he wrote in his memoirs, and cried and hid behind the couch when it was time to leave for visitation with her mother. Still, I tend to think it was with a good deal of encouragement from Ernest. Ernest was gay and Victoria Melita wasn't willing to live such an unhappy life. It's a pity that the little girl was too young to understand that her father wasn't perfect and her mother didn't leave because she didn't love her.  
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Joanna Mayer on April 24, 2004, 07:50:57 AM
I am sorry- perhaps I am mistaken but I thought that Ernst of Hesse was gay and that the marrage to Victoria M. was something that in that era couldn't be helped...Maybe I am thinking of someone else...Anyone?

Joanna Mayer
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 24, 2004, 01:09:07 PM
There is a biography of Victoria Melita called "A Fatal Passion" by Michael John Sullivan, published in 1997, that asserts that Ernest was homosexual or bisexual and that contributed to Ducky's desire for a divorce. When they married, they discovered they were "sexually incompatible"  and Ernie discovered he "could not be an adequate husband to her" and "he was not attracted to her." That's on page 136 of the book and is apparently quoted from an biography of Ducky's sister Queen Marie of Roumania.

On page 182 of Sullivan's biography, there is a recounting of Ducky's apparent discovery of Ernest in bed with one of the stablehands when she returned unexpectedly to Darmstadt. Here is the direct quote from the book:
 
  "Exactly what happened will never be known, but to judge by what Ducky told her niece years later, she saw Ernie in bed with one of the teenaged boys employed in the palace kitchen. So great was the shock that Ducky was physically ill for several days, unable to face her husband or anyone else in the palace.
  "As she gradually regained her composure a deep sense of shame replaced her grief. For apparently almost everyone in the palace knew of the grand duke's proclivity. While Ducky had been away in Romania, he had been left alone to freely indulge it, and he had apparently carried on in the most indiscreet manner. 'No boy was safe,' Ducky bitterly told her niece, 'from the stable hands to the kitchen help. He slept quite openly with them all.' "

The above is a quote from Terrence Elsberry's Marie of Roumania, according to the footnotes by Sullivan.

Elsewhere in Sullivan's biography of Victoria Melita, he states that she kept silent about Ernest's homosexuality. About 30 years later, when her niece, Princess Ileana of Romania, found out that her fiance was gay, Ducky told her about what happened with Ernest, according to the book.

  Obviously no one was to blame for the death of little Princess Elizabeth. Typhoid was unfortunately common in that era, and contaminated water a common hazard. I think that Ernest and the Tsarina Alexandra and other adults CAN be blamed for not notifying Elizabeth's mother that her daughter was ill in time for her to reach her bedside.

  In Robert Massie's famous "Nicholas and Alexandra," he states that Alexandra ignored the advice of the doctor that she should notify Victoria Melita of Elizabeth's illness. Here's Sullivan's account of Elizabeth's death:

  "But one morning Elizabeth woke early, complaining of a dry throat and severe pains in her chest. Within a short time she was 'in agony, panting feverishly for breath.' A doctor was immediately called, but he could do nothing for the suffering child. More specialists arrived. Elizabeth failed to respond to their treatments. Alarmed, 'the doctors warned the Tsarina that the child's mother should be called at once.' Alix ignored their advice until Elizabeth's condition deteriorated so rapidly that the doctors insisted.
  "Ducky was having breakfast at the Rosenau when the message arrived announcing her daughter's illness. She immediately went upstairs and began packing her bags.
  "But another telegram arrived an hour and a half later, describing Elizabeth's condition as 'grave.'
  "Ducky became frantic. She stopped packing, quickly grabbed all she could carry, and ran to her carriage. But just as she was leaving for the train station, the postman came galloping up the road with a third telegram. It was cruelly brief.
  'Ducky's little daughter had just died.' "

  Here, Sullivan is quoting from John Van Der Kiste's biography"Victoria Melita."

  From reading this biography, and Massie's account of the same incident, I think there was probably plenty of blame to go around in that marriage and for Elizabeth's sad life. Ernest "adored his daughter" and was apparently a good father who lavished attention and affection on her. He even spoiled her.

  According to Sullivan, he built a small playhouse in a garden for Elizabeth and adults were allowed nowhere near it until the little girl was willing to come out. Tutors and nannies paced impatiently nearby because they weren't allowed to order her to come out and learn her lessons.

  But, at the same time, it sounds as though Ernest was gay and was pressured by Queen Victoria into a marriage he really didn't want. He was attracted to his artist friends, the good-looking boys on his estate, and not to his wife. He was cursed by his time and his place and his family. It wasn't his fault. It also wasn't Victoria Melita's fault. She was 17 when she was pressured to marry Ernest, had never been told anything about sex, and was completely unprepared for a marriage of that sort. The marriage was intolerable for both of them. I fault Ernest for not trying to foster a better relationship between mother and daughter and for not notifying Victoria Melita when the girl was on her deathbed.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 24, 2004, 01:34:26 PM
I'll add, for anyone interested in reading Sullivan's "A Fatal Passion," that I found it to be a fairly unsatisfying book. It's written in a melodramatic fashion. Every prince or princess is "beautiful" or "dashing" or some other superlative.

He makes some glaringly obvious mistakes. At one point he refers to the "hemophiliac Prince Leopold of Albany" as the heir to Coburg after the death of Victoria Melita's brother Alfred. Obviously, Leopold's son Charles Edward (Carl Eduard) did not suffer from hemophilia and was never called Leopold.  Sullivan also got the age of Grand Duke Kyril's mother Marie Pavlovna wrong.

At the same time, reading between the lines and looking at the facts he tried to disguise behind his flowery language, it was clear that both Victoria Melita and Ernest got a very raw deal. Victoria Melita was depressed and took refuge in fashion, frequent visits to her sisters, and rebelliously refused to do her duty. She'd much rather ride horseback, talk to the most amusing person at the dinner table instead of the most important, and blew off charity work in favor of doing what she damn well pleased. She obviously wasn't a very good grand duchess and probably wasn't the most devoted mother either at times, but it's hard not to be sympathetic to a teenage girl who's been married off to a man who can't stand to touch her.  

From the known facts, it's also clear that she WANTED her little girl with her and fought to have her for six months of the year. If she didn't want Elizabeth, it would have been simple enough for her to leave her in Darmstadt and never see her again.  That's what a lot of other women in similar circumstances did. She made the effort to regain Elizabeth's trust during the visitation periods she did have with her.

In his memoirs, Ernie himself acknowledges that he didn't correct Elizabeth when she told him "Mama says she loves me, but you DO love me." Like a lot of divorced daddies who want their kids to themselves, I can't help thinking that he probably didn't paint a positive picture of Victoria Melita for Elizabeth.

As to whether Elizabeth was an inconvenience -- I'm sure that wouldn't have been how either of her parents referred to her. I think they both loved her very much. Nonethless, her death certainly made it easier for her mother and father to remarry and have other families without a stepchild there as a reminder of the past.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Joanna Mayer on April 24, 2004, 02:52:35 PM
Thank you for the clarification. It's realy rather sad, here we all are discussing the tragic lives of dead royalty. Ah well... at least we can get some comfort from the fact that all the world suffers from the same heartache.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 24, 2004, 03:11:11 PM
Yes, it is incredibly sad and morbid, I suppose, to be gossiping about people who are long dead. But, since they played a role in history, they're interesting because of that.

I think the untold stories about their private lives add some dimension and restore their humanity in some ways. Would we rather idealize "dear Ernie" and "dear Elizabeth" or look at them as human beings with flaws and virtues who experienced things that tore their hearts out just like the rest of us?



Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 24, 2004, 06:44:35 PM
   Your quote from Ernie's memoirs doesn't sound too different to me than what I originally quoted from the book. Did he write the memoirs in German? If so, Elizabeth's quote is translated into English from the German and the meaning is essentially the same -- "Papa loves me. Mama says she loves me, but I don't think she really does."  The sentiment is a sad one for a 7- or 8-year-old to have and it's even more sad if her father didn't correct it.

 As to whether it's true that Ernest was a homosexual --it's hard to know, isn't it? None of us were there or privy to the private conversations of the people involved. That is the kind of story that everyone involved would certainly have lied about because it was so scandalous. However, saying that the assumption that Ernie was homosexual is automatically as false as the assumption that the Tsar was a cold-blooded murderer or that Alexandra was Rasputin's lover seems wrong to me.

  We have quotes from memoirs and interviews with people who knew Nicholas and Alexandra intimately that all attest to the true relationship between Alexandra and Rasputin. Therefore we know, as well as we can ever know, that Alexandra was NOT Rasputin's lover and she viewed him as a holy man who could heal her son.

  Can you cite similar primary sources that refute the story that Ernest was homosexual? The biography that I quoted from apparently cited a conversation between Ducky herself and her niece Ileana in which Ducky herself made the claim that Ernest was gay and slept with the servant boys. It apparently came directly from Ileana. In the footnotes of that book there's a reference to an interview with "Mother Alexandra." I'm not sure, but I think that may well have been the religious name chosen by Ileana when she took the veil.

  So, while not everything we read is true, I'm inclined to believe that there is some truth to the story about Ernie.

  As to when Alexandra notified Victoria Melita of Elizabeth's illness -- I think I would want to know as soon as the child showed signs of serious illness that there was something wrong. Alexandra apparently waited to notify Victoria Melita.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thierry on April 25, 2004, 05:49:59 AM
Quote
I read for example the books by Marie zu Erbach Schönberg, the sister of Ernst's brother-in-law. She knew him very well and she did not mention about homosexuality.
Grand Duchess Eleonore did never do it either.


Dear Thomas,

Do you really think that Marie Erbach or Onor would have written that their brother-in-law / husband was gay and that he slept with the stable-boys ?!

By the way, I do not think it is a shame that Ernie could have been gay or bisexual !  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 09:21:15 AM
   And why would Ernest's second wife say anything if Ernest was homosexual or bisexual? Ducky apparently didn't say anything in public about it either and told her niece and sister something only under extreme circumstances. Homosexuality simply was not discussed in that era. It was a shameful thing.

  Onor, Ernest's second wife, may have been better able to tolerate the situation than Ducky was. She was close to thirty when they married -- not a seventeen-year-old girl as Ducky was -- and she apparently had a quite different temperament. Some women do have very happy marriages with gay husbands. Maybe Onor was one of them. Ernie certainly comes across as an attractive personality in many ways. Onor may have loved him and he may have loved her in his own way.

  I think it's naive to protest that it can't possibly be true. Maybe it isn't. But I see no reason for Ileana of Romania to make up such a story about Ernest of Hesse's "disgusting nature" in 1982. And, if Marie merely took Ducky's side, there was no reason for her to make up a story that Ernest was homosexual. They wouldn't have destroyed either Ernie's or Ducky's reputation, and indeed Ileana never uttered a word about it until her mother, aunt and Ernest of Hesse (and his immediate family) were all long dead.

  For that matter, I think it was rather unkind of Ernest to write about Elizabeth's attitude towards her mother in his memoirs at a point when Victoria Melita was still alive.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 09:26:12 AM
As to who's to blame for the breakup of the marriage -- isn't it clear that they shouldn't have married in the first place? In today's Catholic Church they'd easily qualify for an annulment because it wasn't a true marriage at all. Neither of them were emotionally or physically ready for such a step. I think it's admirable that they ended it, even though they had to face such disapproval from their family and society.

  I do think Ernest should have notified Victoria Melita sooner of their daughter's illness. The fact that he and Alexandra delayed, against the doctor's recommendation, is cited in several books I've read.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 03:15:22 PM
If they ignored the doctor when he first told them to call Ducky, I think that does put a certain amount of blame on them. Maybe she still wouldn't have reached Elizabeth in time, but she would have had a better chance to make it there.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 03:36:22 PM
I think it's very likely they were a better match than Ernest and Ducky, but it's also reasonable to assume that she was more willing to make accommodations for his sexuality than Ducky was.

I think the source for the story about Ernest's sexuality is a believable one -- Ducky told her sister, Marie, and her niece, Ileana, something about her marriage in private. Ileana wrote her own memoirs and was interviewed when she was an old woman in 1982 and apparently spoke of it then.

As to what was or was not written about Grand Duke Sergei -- I'm less familiar with that. I have my doubts that his wife Ella ever wrote or referred to his sexuality. Marie Pavlovna Junior may have referred obliquely to it in her memoirs, but I haven't read them for some time.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 03:50:57 PM
I believe I did put the blame on Ernie, along with Nicholas and Alexandra. But in the biographies I've read, Alexandra is the one who's specifically mentioned as ignoring the doctor's advice to summon Elizabeth's mother. Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra and Sullivan's Fatal Passion both said as much.

  Still, I think the father who was beside himself with worry over his daughter can probably be cut a little more slack than the girl's aunt. Surely Alexandra could have said, "Let's call Ducky just in case." I think she put off calling Ducky because she couldn't stand the woman and didn't want her there.

  I don't think I wrote anywhere that either Ducky or Ernest were saints. It's clear that they were two human beings with faults and virtues who made any number of mistakes and were pressured into a marriage they weren't ready for. Ducky told her niece Ernest was gay, which surely contributed to the problem. Their daughter was caught in the middle and suffered at the last by not having her divorced mother with her -- perhaps in part because her father's family disliked her mother and blamed her unfairly for divorcing her father.  
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: BobAtchison on April 25, 2004, 03:51:51 PM
Alexander Mikhailovich certainly did a number on Sergei in his memoirs.

Considering that man's affairs and scandals I am surprized he feels so free attacking others.  Of course his hatred of Alix is legendary.

Bob
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 03:58:28 PM
   I've read that Sergei was homosexual in biographies, but I don't remember the source of it. It probably was common knowledge in some quarters.

 They certainly wrote about unsavory family secrets in veiled terms. Ducky's brother Alfred had venereal disease. The Empress Frederick wrote to her daughter Sophie that Alfred had a "sickness" and she didn't know any more about it, but it was certainly unpleasant to think of. In the same letter she mentioned his carousing.

  According to Sullivan, Alfred also supposedly shot himself after his mother refused to acknowledge his marriage to an unsuitable Catholic girl. He lingered for weeks. His sisters saw him and were told it was tuberculosis. Then he was sent away by train, against doctor's orders, and died of his wounds a week later. The official story is still that he died of TB. Somehow the truth leaked out, maybe through letters or private conversations, or the like. The official story about Ernie may have been quite different from what the family said in private or wrote down.

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm8571 on April 25, 2004, 04:08:19 PM
Alexander Mikhailovitch -- Xenia's husband Sandro? I think they all needed money after the Revolution. I suppose he had to talk to make it look good to the publishers. It doesn't mean he was incorrect, necessarily.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Penny_Wilson on April 26, 2004, 09:55:31 AM
Meriel Buchanan wrote an account of the circumstances surrounding Elisabeth's death.  Of course, she wasn't in Poland, but because of her father's position in Hesse and later in Russia, she knew Ducky and Ernie quite well.  I think her mother was quite a good friend of Ducky's during her Darmstadt years. Anyway -- in MB's there doesn't seem to have been any rancor from Ducky over "not being called in time."

And Miss Eagar herself -- who WAS there at Elizabeth's bedside -- left an extensive memoir of the time, including the fact that no-one knew quite what was the matter with Elizabeth.  She woke up the morning after Olga's birthday with a sore throat, but soon felt better.  So she got up and dressed, and then felt ill again.  So the doctor was called, and nothing more than the effects of the previous day's excitement was suspected. So she spent the day in bed, and seemed fine when her father and Alexandra came to see  her in the evening.  So the grown-ups went out to see a play.  It was only on their return that things took a turn for the worse:  The theater party went to see the children and visited for a while.  Elizabeth was standing on her bed, and then suddenly fell unconscious -- this was when it became obvious that something more serious than excitement was going on.  Elizabeth received caffeine injections to revive her, and a local specialist was called in.   It was in the very early hours of the morning that Ducky was sent for -- allegedly, according to Miss Eagar, after Elizabeth asked for her, though this might be a piece of dramatic  embroidery on Miss Eagar's part because she claims that Elizabeth knew she was dying -- and the telegram reached her at breakfast.  So there was no delay in sending for Ducky.  Not more than three or four hours could have passed from the return of the theater party and the sending of the telegram, which may itself have been delayed here and there, because some telegraph offices closed overnight.

Penny
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ilana on April 29, 2004, 12:47:10 PM
Hi Thomas,

It was because I was on a small tour of royal lovers led by Charlotte Zeepvat, and she was able to get us into Wolfsgarten through her connections with Dr Franz, who was our guide in Darmstadt.  A never-to-be-forgotten tour.

I just remember being able to see the memorial after we were in the Prince Georg Palais (I think, I think... don't have my notes)... the palais with all the porcelain, and then from there we walked to the Elisabeth Memorial.

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on April 30, 2004, 12:12:13 PM
I came across this little bit of information:

Ella to Queen Victoria, 3 August 1894
(writing from Ilinskoe)
"About the wedding nothing seems to be
settled. Ducky will I suppose not be able to come and
that deranges all plans. I am so very glad she is
expecting a Baby if only it could be a Boy the idea of
our branch of the Hessian family dying out made me so
sad.

Ella"

I thought it was interesting to read about Ducky's pregnancy (I'm presuming this is with Elizabeth but haven't done the exact date checking) but also bittersweet knowing how young Elizabeth would live to be but also the last line about "their" branch of the family dying out. Little could she have known.... :(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thierry on May 01, 2004, 11:35:48 AM
Quote
I thought it was interesting to read about Ducky's pregnancy (I'm presuming this is with Elizabeth but haven't done the exact date checking)


It was certainly with Elizabeth, as she was born on March 11, 1895.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on May 15, 2004, 11:22:57 PM
I've never heard of this portrait and would love to see a copy of it. I wonder, since it was of mother & child if she would've taken it following the divorce? After Elizabeth's death, I would imagine she'd either a) destroy it or put it away because of the memories plus starting a "new" family b) have given it to her mother or c) because of the memories, keep it displayed in her new home. If it's the latter, when she escaped Russia it might've been very hard to transport (unless it was a miniature) and thus was probably left behind and was lost.  This is all just supposition of course.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: ChristineM on June 02, 2004, 11:25:31 AM


This poor little darling's untimely death was yet another blow for Empress Alexandra Feodorovna who, out of care and concern for her brother and niece in the wake of the marriage breakup, invited to join her own family on holiday in Poland.  

Inevitably, with her propensity to blame herself for things going wrong, the Empress must have wrestled with a mixture of emotions.   The Emperor describes the family's heartbreak in the letter to Kaiser Wilhelm -

'It is impossible for me to pass over the sudden and tragic death of that sweet little sunshine, without sending you just a word to tell you how deeply I feel for you all in this sad affair.   It is really very difficult to realize the facts, that darling child is no more among us!   How joyous and merry she was that day at Wolfsgarten, when I was there, so full of life and fun and health, and to think that one shall never see her again in this world!   What a terrible heartrending blow for poor Ernie, who doted and adored that little enchantress!  May heaven give him power to bear up under such a blow!'




tsaria
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 31, 2004, 12:12:02 PM
Hi everyone,

I'm now writing two books one on Elisabeth [i just have a few pages; and it to be her diary, Her father did say she was very smart at a young age' a five year old]
it called 'Elisabeth: the forgotting Princess' it bass on a true story but non-characters and others, you know shuff like that. it like Anastasia's diary. the royal diaries books.
Anyway for thos who wanna know please e-mail me and i send you the first copy when i'm frinshed.

And the other book is on OTMA  and Alexis it called "The young hearts: Children of the last tsar'....
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Angie_H on November 19, 2004, 05:10:12 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/ElisabethofHesseherBattenburgcousins1903.jpg)
Elisabeth & her Battenburg Cousins
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 19, 2004, 10:06:14 AM
I love that photo--it's from Childhood at Court, right? Louise, Louis and George Battenberg. Louise doesn't look too thrilled at being with the little ones.  ;)

I always thought Maurice might've been anglicized from Moritz as a tip of the hat to Wales (ala Ena for Scotland, Leopold had Duncan, Patricia for Ireland etc...). It seems to be that they tried to get some of the names of other parts of the Empire in there. (I love GV& QM putting the names of George (patron saint of England) Andew (PS of Scotland) Patrick (PS of Ireland) and David (PS of Wales) in the name of the future Edward VIII.

I have a companion postcard of the image of Elisabeth with the hat I'll have to find. I always thought it was one of the prettiest series of her. You can definitely see the resemblance to her mother in it.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Angie_H on November 19, 2004, 10:24:02 AM
I have seen a few pics of Elisabeth with her mother, but it seems like there were more taken of her with her father. I know she was upset bout her parents divorce. And from what I read Ernie adored her and she was a "daddy's girl"
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 19, 2004, 10:33:15 AM
She certainly was! There was a whole series taken with her father (with her in a very pretty white dress). I can think of about 3 with her mother. There's one I've seen of all 3 together.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 19, 2004, 11:13:28 AM
ella, a full page version of that picture also appears in "Mountbatten, Eighty Years in Pictures" (a pictorial bio of Earl Mountbatten of Burma).
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Annie on November 19, 2004, 06:20:07 PM
Quote
ella, a full page version of that picture also appears in "Mountbatten, Eighty Years in Pictures" (a pictorial bio of Earl Mountbatten of Burma).


Where is the pic? I want to see!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on November 19, 2004, 06:40:49 PM
Quote
Well his fathers name was Heinrich Moritz (Henry Maurice), so that kinda makes it make more sense.


Dear PrinceEddy1864,

I was just being silly, because i rarly hear that name "Maurice" alot.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 19, 2004, 07:22:40 PM
Oh, ok. Yes it was definatly not common among the Royal Families.

Hey Maria we have the same last name.

The picture I am reffering to was posted at the bottom of the previous page of this thread.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: felix on November 19, 2004, 09:52:37 PM
EDDY, DID YOU read Aronsons book . F
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 19, 2004, 10:34:56 PM
Do you mean "Prince Eddy and the Homosexual Underworld", if so believe it or not I have not. I was only recently able to get an affordable copy. I just got it off ebay for like 20.00$ (a deal I think). It is on it''s way to me as we speak (in the mail). I am very excited to get it.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 19, 2004, 10:46:25 PM
See--this is why we sometimes need to quote pictures.  :) I actually thought you meant the one I mentioned of the 3 together.  ::)

I think I need to get that Mountbatten book--are the lots of photos of his early years? The one of the cousins that is on the other page is also in the van der Kiste book but it's not full page. That's a really good book though.

The Prince Eddy book is a very worthy one and not at all sleazy (despite the title) for those who might wonder. Aronson was a great biographer--too bad he's not with us anymore.  :( I just obtained his Princess Alice of Athlone biography and look forward to reading it.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 19, 2004, 11:08:13 PM
Oh I love the Mountbatten book. I got it at a used bookstore for under 5$. It has tons of pics from his childhood and youth. See Dickie is a favorite of mine so it was nice for me to have. It has pics of him with his Russian and Prussian cousins, aunts, uncle, brother, sisters and parents. It has many GREAT picks of he and Edwina (a distant relative of mine ;D BRAG) and David (EVIII), although if I remeber correctly you are not a big fan of EVIII. I love it.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 20, 2004, 01:14:17 AM
Thanks for the tip! I'll look around for it. How interesting that you're related to Edwina--you know you'll have to offer more than a tease next time.  ;) I don't know if you noticed, but it's an odd little thing about the Forum. I'm assuming you typed that you're a fan of Earl Mountbatten but you used his nickname. The filter won't allow that word (I found this out when I typed a post about him that mention his name repeatedly). It spells it out as thyngie instead.  ::) We have to type Louis, Earl Mountbatten or D I C K I E--unless we all just want to nickname him 'thyngie'.  ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 20, 2004, 02:25:00 AM
That is so funny. I did not even notice. I got a good laugh about that. From now on I will just say Louis.

I am related to Edwina through our common ancestor, the great British Statesman Anthony Ashley-Cooper. As well as being a Royal enthusiast I am also a genealogist.  
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Angie_H on November 20, 2004, 11:48:08 AM
Elisa I'll see if I can get that book thru the Inter Library Loan! And the Mountbatten one too!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Angie_H on November 20, 2004, 04:55:45 PM
Quote


Great Angie! I wish you luck :) By the way, i forgot to mention that the photo of all three may be found in "The Romanovs, Love Power and Tragedy". If you like of course, i can always post it here. I think it is the only one i have seen with all of them together, except perhaps the large group photo taken at i think Illinskoe, which includes Ducky holding her baby, etc.

Elisa I love that book! That is one I had to buy!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Angie_H on November 21, 2004, 01:03:49 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/ErnieElisabethVictoriaMelita.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 21, 2004, 05:50:04 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/PrinceEddy1864/duckyelis.jpg)

Here is one of Ducky and Elisabeth, who was the spitting image of her mother.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Val289 on February 25, 2005, 03:30:42 PM
Thomas_A. - I thought you would enjoy the postcard!  :D Thank you so very much for summarizing the lovely poem, I really appreciate it! :)  It's so lovely to know about the pendant being from her "Aunty Alix".  

Many, many thanks!!
-Val :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 25, 2005, 04:15:13 PM
Well, I've probably totally muddled this as it is, as Thomas says, a poem and German isn't my first language so that's a double-handicap. Nevertheless, I think I got part of it, maybe enough to give a sense of it at least and perhaps someone else could do a better job? There are just words that I can't decipher due to not understanding the grammar (difficult even in non-poem form) or dialect/colloquialisms. Anyway:

Memory
A lock stands far off in machtigen  Waldersraumen, from the noise of the world;
Between floral (?) gardens and shady trees it is appropriately peaceful and quiet under blue sky.
The  smell and roses and birds and Voglein twitter Spring songs.
The Air blows quietly and on green lawn with  shrubs and hedges plays carelessly, cheerfully and in glad, hiding places - a Duke with his beloved child.
They hurry and running up and down, stop themselves and leave themselves again;
They jauchzen and jubelin, call them and sing, embracing kiss-end themselves when frohlichen jumping.
the autumn uber country came and Schloss pulled, it streunte yellow Blatter all around.
The merry Sanger was is enough already flown away, and also in the garden ward it lonely, quietly and empty. -
there the dull tone of  the country of the bell hammer and awakens in the whole people pain and misery.
By forest and corridors steicht herbstlich the wind, and under painful crying and complaining a small coffin is carried quietly to the Gruft. Drinn ' lieght the Duke’s  holdseliges child. - humans pray:
O! Gentleman and master, can you give our Duke’s daughter more time?
They ask and cry in the hopeless struggle, the Duke want for pain nearly the heart to shatter.
The child sleeps the eternal sleep of the fair one, its innocent heart she went to everlasting rest' and remained protected serious ensuring and fencing. - one bedecks the grave with flowers.
Went there from this cold ground, into light Hoh'n a new become deeply felt. - -
nevertheless in the evening, if those aufgegaugen star are, if to ground themselves dark shade bend, see one at the grave a picture so intimately own -
there the Duke stands - he speaks with his child. And on the grave fall'n its he puts white Flieder to tranen down and to the roses. -
by withered Blatter quiet blowing it ziecht raunt and rushing ELT - flustert: ' good-bye! "-
Hermann Boning
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eurohistory on March 01, 2005, 08:49:02 AM
Elisabeth's resting place at the Rosenhöhe in Darmstadt is quite a moving sight!

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on March 09, 2005, 03:44:56 PM
Poor little thing. Her father loved her so much.

That is one of my favorite images of her--the dress/coat, gloves and hat--she just looks so sweet and lovely. You can see the resemblance to Ducky there.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lisa on March 09, 2005, 05:43:22 PM
Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/Romanovs/ggg003.jpg)


To the dear memory of little Elisabeth, Prinzeßchen von Hessen und bei Rhein born. 11.3.1895*



11 March? She was a little "pisces", like me ! ;D (I was born on 13,  and ... I just realized: we have the same name : Elisabeth..)

*...may she rests in peace...*
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on March 09, 2005, 06:58:57 PM
The spitting image of Ducky.

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 09, 2005, 09:00:15 PM
RIP little Angel Elisabeth of Hesse!!!!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: RickV on March 09, 2005, 09:03:12 PM
She resembles her mother, but I think she would have grown to a much more attractive woman than she.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on March 09, 2005, 10:46:06 PM
Maybe because she wouldn't have worn such a sulky, 'me against the world' expression ala Ducky.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: jfkhaos on March 14, 2005, 11:27:44 AM
If I remember correctly, in finishing The Mountbattens by Richard Hough, it indicated that Johanna and Elisabeth were both buried in the Rosenhohe.  Is this correct, and if so, are they any pcitures of the children's graves?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Marlene on March 14, 2005, 11:41:47 AM
Quote
If I remember correctly, in finishing The Mountbattens by Richard Hough, it indicated that Johanna and Elisabeth were both buried in the Rosenhohe.  Is this correct, and if so, are they any pcitures of the children's graves?  Thanks!


I am sure there are photos - as the graves are easily accessible.  I took photos when I visited Darmstadt in 1984.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Jim1026 on March 14, 2005, 03:07:37 PM
At this site under Germany then Darmstadt you will find
pictures of the graves of the Hesse family at Rosenhohe.

www.royaltyguide.nl   ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on March 14, 2005, 07:23:04 PM
Quote
At this site under Germany then Darmstadt you will find
pictures of the graves of the Hesse family at Rosenhohe.

www.royaltyguide.nl   ;)
 


OMG it WAS your site after all. I am so embarrassed.  :-[  I could've sworn it was a different one--though I go to yours often and think its great.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: TampaBay on March 14, 2005, 08:22:56 PM
I believe Ernie really loved Ducky.

It wasn't the way Ducky wanted to be loved or the marriage she wanted but I believed Ernie really loved her.

Queen Marie of Roumanisa(Ducky's Sister) never had a bad work to say about Ernie in all that I have read and researched.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bluetoria on March 15, 2005, 04:46:05 AM
Quote
I believe Ernie really loved Ducky.

It wasn't the way Ducky wanted to be loved or the marriage she wanted but I believed Ernie really loved her.

Queen Marie of Roumanisa(Ducky's Sister) never had a bad work to say about Ernie in all that I have read and researched.

TampaBay


I'm not so sure he did; at least not as a husband loves a wife. As a cousin & friend perhaps - since they shared the same sense of humour, love of art & enjoyment of parties etc. But he was virtually forced into the marriage by QV's unrelenting pressure & he kept putting it off & putting it off....
It seems right the Missy wouldn't have a bad word for him, as he comes over as a very sensitive & caring man; his view of the outbreak of WWI was also very perceptive.
I'm glad that he and Onor were happy together.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: jfkhaos on March 15, 2005, 09:18:57 AM
I have to agree with bluetoria.  I think the reason Ernie loved Ducky was because marriage represented the norm for someone in his position, and it also provide a welcome camoflauge to his real inclinations.  Ernie wasn't too sure abt the marriage to begin with as he had to be directed to make the proposal as Marie of Coburg was under the impression that he didn't want to anymore.  They may have had fun in the beginning, and possibly shared many common interests, but their relationship turned to one of frustration, and perhaps, even bitterness on Ducky's part.  If Missy never had a bad word for him, that is typical of her character, and remember, even though a great majority of the younger members of the family believed it was best for them to divorce and move on, Alexandra was completely opposed to it and blamed Ducky for everything, instead of giving her brother some of the credit where credit is due.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: trentk80 on June 13, 2005, 09:27:53 PM
Does anyone know what was Marie, Duchess of Edinburgh's reaction to her little granddaughter's death?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Alicky1872 on June 14, 2005, 05:43:31 AM
Oh that's horrible. Surely she wouldn't have been that cold. Give the woman some credit. Ducky was staying with her mother Marie, in Coburg, when the first telegram came, announcing Elizabeth's illness. Each successive telegram was worse, until the final one announced the little girl's death. Ducky, who had been getting ready to travel to Poland, cancelled her journey. I have a feeling that no matter how cold Marie appeared to other people, she would have been a support to Ducky at this awful time. What normal mother wouldn't have been?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: pinklady on June 14, 2005, 06:17:02 AM
Quote
Well, presumably she said: Thank God! One nasty relation less in the familytree... :-*

Presumably she would have meant Ernie, wouldnt she?? That he was no longer on the family tree as little Elisabeth had died.
That is horrible if she did say that about the death of a child, especially one's own grandchild.
It would mean she was a narrow, spiteful woman if that was what she said.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bluetoria on June 14, 2005, 06:31:25 AM
Quote
Well, presumably she said: Thank God! One nasty relation less in the familytree... :-*


Oh no, Thomas!! There is nothing to suggest she would say or even think such a thing!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bluetoria on June 14, 2005, 09:47:01 AM
Sorry for the misunderstanding, Thomas...I wondered if that was what you meant. It's rather like reporters asking bereaved people, "How do you feel?" How are they supposed to answer?

But I think trentk was asking rather for any specific details - letters etc.  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 14, 2005, 02:46:04 PM
I imagine she was sympathetic to be sure but also rather stoic about it. In her memoirs, Missy relates she only ever saw her mother break down once (during young Alfred's funeral, presumably due to heavy guilt at having sent him off) and was stoic when hearing of the horrific death of her father Alexander II. It was teh same regarding the death/funeral of her brother Serge (she was one of the few Romanovs or family in general who traveled to the city for the funeral--she wasn't worried apparently). Also during Ena's wedding (with the attempted assassination) she was rather blase, saying (to the shock of GV) that in Russia they were so used to that sort of thing. I think it took a lot to really shake her into a visible emotional state regardless of her personal feelings.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: ilyala on June 14, 2005, 03:20:49 PM
Quote
I imagine she was sympathetic to be sure but also rather stoic about it. In her memoirs, Missy relates she only ever saw her mother break down once (during young Alfred's funeral, presumably due to heavy guilt at having sent him off) and was stoic when hearing of the horrific death of her father Alexander II. It was teh same regarding the death/funeral of her brother Serge (she was one of the few Romanovs or family in general who traveled to the city for the funeral--she wasn't worried apparently). Also during Ena's wedding (with the attempted assassination) she was rather blase, saying (to the shock of GV) that in Russia they were so used to that sort of thing. I think it took a lot to really shake her into a visible emotional state regardless of her personal feelings.



she was quite an original :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: RickV on June 14, 2005, 08:27:18 PM
Ha! And she (Marie) hated England! It's a wonder Alfred married her, but perhaps he only did so out of duty. Didn't he vow to have nothing more to do with her after his son's death? He didn't have long not to have any more to do with her anyway. England was about the best place for a royal to be. Maybe she realized that at the end, though she didn't die there. Unfortunately for her, she lived to see the fall of her country, and more deaths of her kin, not to mention great loss of much of her personal wealth.  
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: trentk80 on June 14, 2005, 09:07:35 PM
Quote
I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
Well, I just wanted to express my astonishment about the question, how the Duchess might have reacted when being informed about her own grandchild's death, with some cutting irony.
Sorry for confusing you!
In Germany one says: strange questions demand strange answers.  :-*


Well, of course the Duchess must have felt very bad. That's not what I asked. I was asking about something more specific, i.e. quotes by her or members or her family.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: ilyala on June 15, 2005, 02:21:53 AM
Quote
Ha! And she (Marie) hated England! It's a wonder Alfred married her, but perhaps he only did so out of duty. Didn't he vow to have nothing more to do with her after his son's death? He didn't have long not to have any more to do with her anyway. England was about the best place for a royal to be. Maybe she realized that at the end, though she didn't die there. Unfortunately for her, she lived to see the fall of her country, and more deaths of her kin, not to mention great loss of much of her personal wealth.  


the edinburgh marriage was always a mystery to me... they defied queen victoria and tsar alexander to do it. and they didn't even love each other....  ???
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bluetoria on June 15, 2005, 07:04:50 AM
QV was certainly pushing Alfred to marry (her remedy for all erring princes!!) & who can say that they didn't love each other at first (in as much as it possible for any of the royalties to love someone they had met very few times & always chaperoned)? Perhaps Alfred was also a little enamoured of the glamour of Russian wealth.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: RickV on June 15, 2005, 10:59:07 AM
Yes, Alfred was probably attracted to the wealth she had. Wasn't she the wealthiest princess at the time? QV, wasn't appreciative of his choice and didn't attend the wedding, held in St. Petersberg. She had good horse sense in regard to Russia. It's a shame some in her family wasn't mindful of her good sense.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 15, 2005, 04:46:31 PM
It's often been speculated that her tremendous wealth was a main attraction to Alfred. He may have finally been wanting to settle down--Queen Victoria had been at him for almost a decade. There could've also been some competition factors at work--QV worried Affie was attracted to Alix (who was being neglected by Bertie) and if you couldn't have the most beautiful princess, have the wealthiest; also Bertie never stood up to QV and Affie apparently enjoyed rebelling at this period, something his brother would never dare. It couldn't be easy being the 'Spare'.

As for Marie, Affie was at the peak of his looks then and cut a dashing image in his naval uniform. Marie probably hadn't had too much interaction with eligible males at that point either. I think there was also some scandal about her and an aide/footman/soldier someone but can't remember where I read it.  ???  

QV was pretty prescient in her foreboding towards marriages of her family with the Romanovs--they all ended in a disaster of some sort. Her aunt Julie (GDss Constantine) ended up divorced. Ella ended up in a complex (to say the least) childless marriage that was the subject of gossip for decades with a husband assassinated and herself executed. Alix had a happy marriage but her position as Empress doomed her. Affie & Marie weren't happy for very long. Even Ducky's marriage to Kyril ended in bitterness.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: RickV on June 15, 2005, 05:16:38 PM
Quote
Even Ducky's marriage to Kyril ended in bitterness

How so? I thought he was her man.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 16, 2005, 12:02:33 AM
At the very end of their marriage, Ducky found out 'something' (it's never been said what) about Kyril that broke her heart. Her sister Missy recounts it and basically says that Ducky was unable to forgive Kyril for it. She died not too long after.  :(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: TampaBay on June 17, 2005, 12:08:21 PM
Quote

Affie & Marie weren't happy for very long.


I do not think Marie & Affie could have been happy married to anyone period.  I think this was a deal like King Carol I and Queen Elizabth of Romania.  They both received what they wanted - Wealth & Position- then settled in to make the best of it.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on July 07, 2005, 07:38:30 AM
I have a question.  Would Elizabeth have become ruler of Hesse, provided she lived and her father didn't remarry?  Then again, Would Ernie have remarried at all knowing he already had a child to put on the throne?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: crazy_wing on July 07, 2005, 08:28:14 AM
no, elisabeth would not rule due to the salic law which bars woman from ascending the throne.  
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Speedycat on July 28, 2005, 08:59:24 AM
With her cousins, Olga and Tatiana in 1901..................

(http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/8541/elizabethwot19017qg.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Speedycat on July 30, 2005, 04:06:39 PM
Thomas, I think you are correct that it is Hemmelmark.  The photo is from the book, "The Jewel Album of Nicholas II" by Solodkoff.  Although it is mostly watercolors by Nicholas of his personal jewelry, there is a section of family photos, many taken from the private albums of Princess Irene.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Sarushka on September 10, 2005, 08:50:50 PM
The quality is abysmal, but here's another photo of Elizabeth with Olga & Tatiana (she's wearing the dark jacket):
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/ElizabethofHesse.jpg)
(from Six Years at the Russian Court, by Margaret Eagar)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on September 10, 2005, 08:57:33 PM
Thank you so much for that photo!!  The only two pictures I have seen of Elizabeth with Olga and Tatiana are two sittings of her in a chair with them standing around her.  It is so nice to see something else.  If anyone has other photos of Elizabeth with her cousins, besides the ones I described, please post them!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: TampaBay on September 11, 2005, 07:16:56 AM
Elizabeth of Hesse looks so much older than Olga and Tatiana.  How much older was Elizabeth of Hesse?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Linnea on September 11, 2005, 07:23:00 AM
Elisabeth was only some months elder than Olga
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: julia.montague on September 11, 2005, 10:09:56 AM
Is it true that Elisabeth had a brother who was stillborn?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Prince_Lieven on September 11, 2005, 10:22:01 AM
Quote
Is it true that Elisabeth had a brother who was stillborn?


Ducky and Ernie had a still born son in 1900 and a miscarriage.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ilana on September 11, 2005, 01:15:35 PM
Does anyone else think it interesting that Mrs. Eager called her Princess Ella...?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm857158367 on September 11, 2005, 11:46:46 PM
Quote
Does anyone else think it interesting that Mrs. Eager called her Princess Ella...?


Ella was Princess Elisabeth's nickname, just like it was her Aunt Grand Duchess Elizabeth's nickname.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Marlene on September 12, 2005, 11:27:09 AM
Quote
Is it true that Elisabeth had a brother who was stillborn?


yes
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ilana on September 13, 2005, 07:01:56 PM
I wasn't aware her nick-name was Ella. It's interesting, and rather sweet.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Linnea on November 14, 2005, 01:50:26 PM
This memorial of Elisabeth is standing in the parc Herrngarten in Darmstadt (hope this hasn´t been posted yet):
(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-countries/germany/darmstadt/1895%20Elisabeth.jpg)

(http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-countries/germany/darmstadt/1895%20Elisabeth-face.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on November 16, 2005, 07:57:44 AM
i haven't seen this before...how beautiful...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: LenelorMiksi on January 01, 2006, 02:21:06 PM
Ernie had a really difficult life; losing his brother at that young age and feeling it was his fault, and then his little sister, and his mother caught diphtheria from him!  If he was gay, which I think he probably was, he must have felt the isolation of having feelings many thought were "evil".  Then his horrid marriage with Ducky, and the death of dear little Ella, who was so close to him.
 Even for the times, his was a tragic lot.  At least Queen Victoria's children didn't have to lose both a parent and two siblings at such a young age.  He seems to have been exceptionally kind and loving to all his sisters, children, and nieces and nephews.  
 No wonder so many people of Hesse grieved deeply for Elisabeth!  All of Alice's children had warm, glowing hearts, and little Ella (despite being a bit spoiled, perhaps) must have been a jewel of a child.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on January 03, 2006, 02:36:41 PM
my favourite photo of  Elisabeth...RIP sweet angel

(http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c399/Laurra_/REGINA%20MARIA/ElizabethHessen1.jpg)

don't know the exact year when this was taken
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on January 03, 2006, 03:12:35 PM
This picture was taken in 1902. It is a part of a photo with the children of Ludwig of Battenberg. The window belongs to a very pretty house the Prinzessinnenhäuschen in Wolfsgarten builded by Joseph Maria Olbrich.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on January 03, 2006, 03:16:28 PM
The picture is published in a small book "Notizen zur Ortsgeschichte" Band14 "Unser Prinzess'chen"
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 03, 2006, 04:11:40 PM
Quote
This picture was taken in 1902. It is a part of a photo with the children of Ludwig of Battenberg. The window belongs to a very pretty house the Prinzessinnenhäuschen in Wolfsgarten builded by Joseph Maria Olbrich.


The photo of Elisabeth peeking out was used in an article about her in Majesty magazine awhile back as well.

Here's the full photo with Louise (later Queen of Sweden), George and Louis Battenberg

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/hessebattenberg/img251.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on January 03, 2006, 04:26:35 PM
Thank you grandduchessella for posting the photo. I can't post photos with my PC. You write about an article in a magazine. Which magazine is this?
The book in which I found the photo belongs to a serie written by the historyclub of Egelsbach the village near Wolfsgarten.
Have a good new year.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on January 13, 2006, 05:04:52 PM
Dear Linnea, thank you for posting this photos. some of them are very rare. The second photo is very interesting. In my eyes it is a cold portrait of Victoria Melita as mother. there is no love in the picture. It is show.

Linnea, ich wünsche dir ein wunderschönes zufriedenes gutes neues Jahr :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 13, 2006, 05:08:28 PM
Quote
Thank you grandduchessella for posting the photo. I can't post photos with my PC. You write about an article in a magazine. Which magazine is this?
The book in which I found the photo belongs to a serie written by the historyclub of Egelsbach the village near Wolfsgarten.
Have a good new year.


It was in Majesty magazine. I can't remember when though.  ???
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 13, 2006, 05:36:08 PM
Her poses with her father are so sweet on the other hand.

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/hessebattenberg/g5061w.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/hessebattenberg/165993w.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 13, 2006, 05:41:46 PM
I know this was posted somewhere on the Forum but I can't remember where. Apologies to the original poster.

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/queenena/hessebattenberg/Arabic00051.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on January 14, 2006, 02:00:03 PM
Linnea and grandduchessella thanks so much for wonderful photos:)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Linnea on January 14, 2006, 02:31:23 PM
One more of Ella
(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3193/ygp92055ul.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on January 16, 2006, 10:52:25 AM
so sweet ...little Ducky  :) i love her folk dress:)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Angie_H on February 01, 2006, 08:28:32 AM
I found this website about Elisabeth's playhouse. It is so cute! What little girl wouldn't love having this to play in?!

http://www.gg-online.de/html/wolfsgarten_prinzessinnenhaus.htm

You can go here to translate it from German to English (like I had to LOL)

http://world.altavista.com/
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: julia.montague on February 01, 2006, 12:34:11 PM
How cute that house is  ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on February 02, 2006, 08:27:12 AM
Just read the other pages in this thread.  It is so obvious that she preferred her father.  During her parents divorce, she felt like her mother had abandoned her.  That would make anyone dislike their mother.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: La_Rainha on February 27, 2006, 03:44:51 AM
Really, the photos are so nice from Little Princess Elisabeth! I think, what could happen to her, if she would live longer? A Queen?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: anabel on February 27, 2006, 05:05:48 PM
Quote
I think, what could happen to her, if she would live longer? A Queen?


*If only, if only* ::)
Well, if she had wanted to, she could surely have become a queen! But sadly there weren´t many hereditary princes of her age... Most Crown Princes were born in the early 1900s (Gustav Adolf of Sweden, Humberto of Italy, Leopold of Belgium, Olav of Norway, Wilhelm of Prussia, Alfonso of Spain)! :-/
But there were her cousin Carol of Romania, George of Greece (they could really have been a lovely match! What do you think?) and maybe Alexander of Serbia? Hmm...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on February 27, 2006, 05:28:25 PM
Carol of Romania :o  God forbid!!!

...there was Prince Edward ::)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 27, 2006, 10:28:15 PM
Wouldn't have wished Carol on her. Besides, she was the product of a first cousin marriage (that ended badly) and for that and various reasons, like personality, neither Ernie nor Missy might not have gone for it anyway.

There was a sweet story about her putting her arm around David's neck as they sat during Queen Victoria's funeral service. One princess, I forget who, remarked what a darling pair they made--shades of Ileana and Alexei of later years. I wish there was a picture of the first two like there is of the latter.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: crazy_wing on February 28, 2006, 12:15:24 AM
It was Maud who remarked that they looked like a cute couple!  One blonde little boy with one dark little girl together.  Elisabeth looks to me much more mature than others at her age!  
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: anabel on February 28, 2006, 03:00:27 AM
Quote
Carol of Romania :o  God forbid!!!

...there was Prince Edward ::)


Hmm, I also thought about him, but I am sure that after WWI the British people wouldn´t hve liked the idea of a German princess being their queen... :-/
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Agneschen on February 28, 2006, 06:42:18 AM
Considering the man he turned out to be I do not think David would have made Elisabeth a better husband than Carol.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: ilyala on February 28, 2006, 06:57:49 AM
Quote
Considering the man he turned out to be I do not think David would have made Elisabeth a better husband than Carol.



i don't think you can compare. they were both weak, yes, but carol had a mean and vindictive side that david didn't. i think he would have treated her well, if he liked her. if not i don't think he would have married her. i mean, so many princesses available and he stayed single for so long. i'm sure that was because he didn't want to marry just for politics
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: nightsinger on March 16, 2006, 12:03:44 AM
Quote


ERNIE WAS SUCH A TRAGIC FIGURE. LOSING HIS BEAUTIFUL ELISABETH WAS ONLY ONE OF HIS LOSSES. HIS FAMILY HISTORY REMINDS ME OF THE KENNEDYS AND THE BRONTES.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Booklady on March 16, 2006, 06:55:36 PM
She would have been such an attractive woman, had she lived--you can see it in her eyes.  Such a darling.  We still grieve for her today, and justly so.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on March 29, 2006, 12:09:15 PM
She was so beautiful, with such a resemblance to Ducky, and she was photogenic as well. She sometimes looks rather sad, but then her mother did in many photos as well, it's just the resemblance. Anyway, she prefered her father, and not her mother, although it is hard to say how things would have developed had she grown up. She would defintely have been a lovely Hessian Princess, the one unflawed result of this doomed marriage. Elizabeth's parents were at least honest enough to divorce, and go on to other things, as their marriage was mutally not working out. In that era, it was unique to do that. I think there is a likelihood based on good sources of Ernie's orientation, and not just rumor. Victoria Melita got alot of hard knocks in life as did her ex husband. They both went on to have other children, but tragedy plagued the Hesse family, and one of Ducky's daughters suffered quite a bit before her early death,  I believe it was Marie of Russia, her daughter by Kyril. Neither of Ducky's two later daughters really had great lives, and both died relatively young, particularly Marie of Russia. I believe that one of her two later daughters bore quite a resemblance to her dead half-sister. :'(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on March 29, 2006, 06:43:14 PM
She was a lovely little girl and was indeed the best thing to come out of the marriage--and to Ernie at least was probably worth the heartache.

As for Kyra, she seems to have had a good life to me. Yes, she died young and suffered through the years post-Revolution but she married a good man who loved her and had a large number of children to which they were devoted. I think they were pretty comfortably situated, especially considering the plight of many.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on March 30, 2006, 10:28:41 AM
Yes, it was Kyra, not Marie that I was thinking of. Anyway, besides the memorial I have seen on this website in pictures for Elizabeth that her father had done, is it true that there was an angel statue as well that was a memorial to her?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on March 30, 2006, 11:34:21 AM
Here it is. I don't have the article in front of me--one from Majesty awhile back--but I think Ernie designed the angel. It's at her gravesite.

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/hesse/189520Elisabeth1.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on March 30, 2006, 12:04:58 PM
Thanks, I don't think there is a picture of this except in this part of the forum. It is a very eclectic Angel, not really the traditional Victorian ones. It would certainly be interesting if Ernie did design this.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on March 31, 2006, 07:09:37 AM
The grave was designed by Ludwig Habich one of the artists of Jugendstil.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on March 31, 2006, 11:02:46 AM
It's true isn't it, that Ernie was very artistic, but even then, this seemed to be pretty professionally designed, to me. I am sure he approved it though, and perhaps had his input, knowing how much he cared for his daughter. Elizabeth had she lived, could have changed history, although I doubt she would have married Edward VIII, he didn't seem interested in any foreign Princess. One of the photos I find most touching is of Elizabeth with her cousins Olga and Tatiana, sitting around a chair. All these girls died young, and tragically, and if they had lived to get a chance to play a part in the world, and marry, and have children, history might have been very different, but two were brutally murdered, and one died in childhood of an all too common illness.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Michael_II on March 31, 2006, 03:19:12 PM
You can see the rest of the Hesse Darmstadt family graves at www.royaltyguide.nl.  Excellent sight. [smiley=happy.gif]
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: aleksandra on April 10, 2006, 09:52:07 PM
Are there anymore pictures of Elizabeth?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: AnnieNicholaievna on April 13, 2006, 10:39:18 PM
Hey! i'm new to this topic (elizabeth of Hesse). and I have to say that I find her story quite intereting, she died so young, and her parents divorce really afected her.. :( and I think I'm now VERY interested in her short life, and her relantionship with her siblings and family (grandmother, mother, father, cousins, etc..). But the books have to be on amazon or ebay. I'm also interested in books, sites, or information for those royal kids who died so incredibly young.

I'd really apreciate your help, thanks in advance! ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: AnnieNicholaievna on April 13, 2006, 10:41:22 PM
Sorry, and I forgot to congratulate you with all the information you have provided to this forum.  ;) ;D GREAT job!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on April 18, 2006, 11:37:44 AM
All the reasons that the last poster gave as things that Elisabeth fascinated them about, are true to me as well, exactly the same. I just found that interesting. I think Elisabeth is mentioned in many books, here and there. For a girl who died so young, and untried, it's pretty easy to see her personality, and what she might have been. And what she might have been is spectacular in many things.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: julia.montague on May 25, 2006, 09:03:03 AM



I read that there was the rumour that Elisabeth was poisened, has anyone heard about this?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on May 25, 2006, 09:14:42 AM
There was a rumor to that effect--that she'd accidentally eaten poisoned food or drink that was meant for Tsar Nicholas II (whom she and her father were visiting at the time). I don't know how much credence is given it--most accounts chalk it up to a tragic illness. I think it was the suddenness of the illness & death combined with whom they were visiting that contributed to it.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Grace on May 27, 2006, 03:04:53 AM


Jelisaveta, I have heard this rumour too.  However, it does say in the Victoria Melita biography by John Van Der Kiste that a post mortem examination showed Elisabeth did die of typhoid.  I suppose that is reasonably reliable information.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Natalya on June 07, 2006, 03:19:56 AM
Does anyone know what the relationship was between precious little Elizabeth and her grandparents, Affie & Marie?  Marie seems cold and unfeeling, and Affie was obviously an absentee father much of the time.  But I would think they would nearly worship this grandchild.  With her dark coloring and all, I think she resembles her grandfather very much.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Sissi on June 14, 2006, 09:46:34 AM
At the wedding of Alice of Battenberg

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/elisa5.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: julia.montague on June 14, 2006, 10:06:05 AM
Is that the last picture we know of Elisabeth?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 14, 2006, 10:50:25 AM
Could very well be unless there were any private photos taken during the brief time she and her father were on vacation with the Tsar and AF that just haven't ever been seen.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bookworm857158367 on June 14, 2006, 07:30:25 PM
She was quite a bit taller than Olga in that last picture, even though she was less than a year older. It looks like she would have inherited her mother's height. You can see the beginnings of gangliness. Ducky always towered over her older sister in the childhood photos too.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 16, 2006, 07:16:08 PM
Grand Duchess Olga is about eight months younger then Princess Elisabeth.  

Elisabeth was born in March of 1895, Olga was born in November that very year. ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on June 20, 2006, 02:51:51 AM
I just read through all the pages  ;D  I find little Ella to be so interesting now.

She seems kind of...scary in some of her pictures though, or is it just me?  ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Grace on June 20, 2006, 10:06:50 PM
I do not see anything "scary" about her at all.  She just appears to me as an innocent child who had sadness in her life and who died tragically.  :(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 20, 2006, 10:38:32 PM
I don't know about scary--sometimes photos of her can be a little unsettling because she had such a look of sadness in many of them, too sad and mature for such a young girl. But the pictures of her smiling are sweet and she looks so lovely in them.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on June 21, 2006, 12:41:25 AM
Yeah, Grandduchessella...unsettling...and mysterious?

Sorry, ^^;, I'm just not one to have a good way with words (don't ever ask me to describe something!   ;D )
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 08, 2006, 07:37:26 AM
Quote
Is that the last picture we know of Elisabeth?

The last official portrait of Elisabeth was taken in Darmstadt in November 1903. In it she is wearing a romanian costume, a present from her aunt Queen Maria, and kneels on the floor looking down.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on July 08, 2006, 08:52:20 AM
Is this picture available in the Prinzessinnenhaus in Wolfsgarten?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: julia.montague on July 08, 2006, 09:33:13 AM
Quote

The last official portrait of Elisabeth was taken in Darmstadt in November 1903. In it she is wearing a romanian costume, a present from her aunt Queen Maria, and kneels on the floor looking down.

Where have you seen this picture?
Is there any way to post it?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Guinastasia on July 08, 2006, 03:14:13 PM
Quote
But there were her cousin Carol of Romania, George of Greece (they could really have been a lovely match! What do you think?) and maybe Alexander of Serbia? Hmm...


Certainly not Carol.  And I think Alexander was in love with her cousin Olga, or at least, he was interested in her.

But I think George of Greece would have been a good one-he was by most accounts, a pretty nice guy and he deserved better than Elisabeta of Roumania!

I love the formal portrait of Ella with Tatiana and Olga.  I love her dress-it looks just like my First Communion dress.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 08, 2006, 05:45:42 PM
Quote
Quote

The last official portrait of Elisabeth was taken in Darmstadt in November 1903. In it she is wearing a romanian costume, a present from her aunt Queen Maria, and kneels on the floor looking down.

Where have you seen this picture?
Is there any way to post it?

I am sorry but unfortunately I don't own a copy of it. I have seen it in the archive in Darmstadt. I doubt that it was ever printed as a postcard
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Guinastasia on July 08, 2006, 06:45:02 PM
What about the picture someone posted earlier of Ella in folk dress-could that be from the same photo session?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on July 09, 2006, 01:57:58 AM
Linnea had posted it. But I think at this picture Elisabeth was younger.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 09, 2006, 03:34:07 AM
Quote
What about the picture someone posted earlier of Ella in folk dress-could that be from the same photo session?

The one you mean dates from 1901 as far as I know. The costume she is wearing is a hessian one - a Hüttenberger Tracht (which survives to this day and is exhibited at Wolfsgarten Castle, Hesse)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on July 09, 2006, 04:19:34 AM
Quote
One more of Ella
(http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3193/ygp92055ul.jpg)

I think  that isn't a Hessian costume. And this isn't in Wolfsgarten. There is exhibited a typical Oberhessische Tracht
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: TampaBay on July 09, 2006, 07:14:48 AM
Quote
Quote
But there were her cousin Carol of Romania, George of Greece (they could really have been a lovely match! What do you think?) and maybe Alexander of Serbia? Hmm...


Certainly not Carol.  And I think Alexander was in love with her cousin Olga, or at least, he was interested in her.

But I think George of Greece would have been a good one-he was by most accounts, a pretty nice guy and he deserved better than Elisabeta of Roumania!


How about one of the Windsor boys?  I just love match-making for dead people!  LOL!  LOL!

TampBay
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: julia.montague on July 09, 2006, 12:47:32 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote

The last official portrait of Elisabeth was taken in Darmstadt in November 1903. In it she is wearing a romanian costume, a present from her aunt Queen Maria, and kneels on the floor looking down.

Where have you seen this picture?
Is there any way to post it?

I am sorry but unfortunately I don't own a copy of it. I have seen it in the archive in Darmstadt. I doubt that it was ever printed as a postcard
Can everyone go to these archives?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Linnea on July 10, 2006, 10:26:41 AM
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Can everyone go to these archives?

It would be great, woudn´t it? ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 10, 2006, 01:23:36 PM
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Can everyone go to these archives?

Sure :) Many of the photographs in the Grand Ducal Collection are digitalized now and currently one can search through about 50 albums and a bunch of single-photos in the computer there.

It takes your breath away and is a real treasury - so many unknown photos of Empress Alexandra and her hessian family.

As for the documents and letters in the Grand Ducal Archive: one has to write to the Landgraf of Hesse asking for special permission to work/research with these
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on July 10, 2006, 03:33:34 PM
Oh, please post a link for us!!! :o
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on August 29, 2006, 12:36:30 PM
She did have an unsettling look sometimes of sadness. Her mother had that too though. Elizabeth looked a good deal like her mother I think, and she would most likely have been tall. I have often wondered what her relationship was with her maternal grandparents as well. Elizabeth was pretty young when Alfred, her grandfather died though.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on September 12, 2006, 11:07:02 AM
I think  that isn't a Hessian costume. And this isn't in Wolfsgarten. There is exhibited a typical Oberhessische Tracht

I meant this photograph. This is a Hüttenberger Tracht and still preserved at Wolfsgarten. In your photo she seems to wear something Russian or even Romanian as well

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs24/elisabethhesse.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on September 12, 2006, 11:25:27 AM
Yes I thought it looked Russian/ Roumanian as well. Not that that means it is. Elizabeth was a lovely child, very pretty in these sorts of things.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rita on September 12, 2006, 03:34:12 PM
Yes, Thomas, I have seen it in Wolfsgarten. It is a typical "Hessische Tracht". More of this are exhibited at the Veste Otzberg, very intereting.
Dear Imperial angel I don't understand what you mean.
LG
rita
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on September 13, 2006, 08:16:38 AM
I was saying she was very beautiful in that outfit, but that I agreed with the last poster who said what it looked like.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on November 20, 2006, 08:30:55 AM
Was the first one a postcard? It looks like it was hand coloured back then, or was it hand coloured then? I, for one for one, can never get enough of the pictures of this beautiful princess. Does anyone know if she liked horse back riding, or if that was more of a pose, for a picture?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on November 20, 2006, 10:07:09 AM
In all the photos I have of her, none of them are on a horse.  Most likely, being a princess, she had horseback riding lessons.  Whether or not she liked it is a different story, but what little girl has not wanted a pony? ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on November 20, 2006, 12:14:07 PM
I had never seen her on a horse either- that's why I wondered. I am sure she might have liked horses, you right. Most princesses back then did have riding lessons. But I think however much she liked horses, or was familiar with them, that photo seems rather posed.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Penny_Wilson on November 20, 2006, 05:30:05 PM
The pony in the second picture is the Shetland that Queen Victoria gave Elisabeth. I forget his name. It was her "best friend," and she would bring it up the steps and try to get it into the house.  This according to information at the Staatsarchiv.

I don't recognize the pony in the first photo, but she looks older there, so it's possible it was a bigger one for riding.

By all accounts, Elisabeth inherited her love of horses and riding from her mother, who had -- while she lived in Darmstadt -- a large black horse called Bogdan.

~Penny
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: princessalice on November 20, 2006, 07:19:21 PM
Ms. Wilson, It's so great to see you posting on the forums!  so many of us out here love your writing, and that of Mr. King's as well!  i read your article in the recent magazine, too, on the Princess Elizabeth, so touching and beautifully written!  my most beloved person in royal history would be her grandmother, the Princess Alice, Grand Duchess of Hesse.

my husband and I plan a trip to Germany in 4 yrs on our 25th anniversary.  i hope to be able to visit the area of Darmstadt, and the surrounding countryside, to see all of the places i have loved for so many years.

i'm really looking forward, too, to your biography on the Grand Duke Ernest, "Ernie."  there is nothing i have found on him really, except the one book in German!  i am learning the language now, but have a long way to go!!

many best wishes,

joanna backman
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on November 21, 2006, 12:26:08 PM
Was the first one a postcard? It looks like it was hand coloured back then, or was it hand coloured then? I, for one for one, can never get enough of the pictures of this beautiful princess. Does anyone know if she liked horse back riding, or if that was more of a pose, for a picture?

The first looks as if it could be a composite--at least she's wearing the same, distinctive, hat that she wore in a series of photos taken with her mother.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on November 21, 2006, 12:43:57 PM
That's what I thought. Thanks so much as well, to the person who posted that info on Elizabeth and horses. Wasn't it said as well, about Ducky and her horse, that she spent more time riding around Hesse on horseback than paying attention to her duties as wife of the Grand Duke? I thought I read that somewhere, or maybe not...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: tatianolishka_ on December 01, 2006, 07:29:17 PM
Where did Elizabeth live when she was with her father? Did she live in the same palace her father lived as a boy with his family? Thanks!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 16, 2007, 08:01:23 PM
  Some romours say that Elizabeth had ate a poisoned dish plate that was for the tsar. I dont known if its true or not? Her early death at eight years old was rumored to be a result of poison meant for her uncle, Tsar Nicholas II, but the court physician said she died of virulent typhoid. :(
 
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on January 16, 2007, 08:49:15 PM
I think this had been talked about earlier on the thread, but Elisabeth did die of typhoid.  She did not ingest poisen for the tsar.  I don't remember where that rumer started, but is has persisted, obviously, to this day.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on January 17, 2007, 12:06:28 PM
The rumor started almost immediately. It mostly came about due to the fact that Elizabeth was with the Tsar and his family (and there were always fears of assassination) and went from being such a healthy girl to sickening and dying almost overnight. There doesn't seem to be anything more to the possibility of poisoning than that--just the coincidence in the timing and location of her death.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Marie Valerie on February 09, 2007, 01:27:29 PM
Here they are again:

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/Royal%20Houses/Hessen/Hessen-Darmstadt/Elisabeth%20Marie%20Alice/KleinElisabeth3.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/Royal%20Houses/Hessen/Hessen-Darmstadt/Elisabeth%20Marie%20Alice/KleinElisabeth2.jpg)

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/Royal%20Houses/Hessen/Hessen-Darmstadt/Elisabeth%20Marie%20Alice/KleinElisabeth.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on February 09, 2007, 01:39:16 PM
Thanks! How popular were images of her like the one above? Were they as popular as those of the Tsar's children? After all, she was a photogenic little girl, and the only product of tragic marriage, and a mother who became something if a scandal, and she was an only child, which may have made her get more attention.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Marie Valerie on February 09, 2007, 02:14:24 PM
I think Images like this were very popular everywhere.
Germany had so many Duchys and Kingdoms and for most people their local Royal Family's were part of their lifes and they felt connected to them, like in almost all other european countries.

For the hessians Elisabeth was "Unser Prinzess'chen" (Our Little Princess) and many people were heartbroken that she died so young.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 09, 2007, 05:20:05 PM
They were very popular--especially the mourning cards. So many of the images, even ones of her taken a good while before her death, were issued again with the death date and often a poem or eulogy.

You can find them pretty easily--I own many cards and prints of the images posted on this thread. Some of the more unusual poses, especially with her mother, cost more but many are available at pretty reasonable prices.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on February 12, 2007, 11:06:07 AM
Thanks! I thought Elizabeth was very popular with the Hessians, and that these no doubt were popular because of it. I think her place was never filled after she died, because Ernest never had any other daughters, and it was all boys after that except for Johanna, who never really captured the heart of the Hessians like Elizabeth, I don't think. Although she looked much like her mother, I guess they identified her more with Hesse, because she was closer to her father, and felt her place there.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 12, 2007, 05:20:17 PM
I think girls often have more of a hold on public affections, especially attractive young girls. They are photographed with their long hair, pretty dresses, pets and/or flowers, etc...and the effect can be very charming. When such a charming child dies at a young age, it adds to the aura around her.

However, Ernie's sons were very popular with the Hessian population and there were many photographs of the boys published with their parents, each other and dressed in both regular and national outfits.

When it came to Johanna, the German Revolution had swept the Hessians from power so that aura of a ruling family wasn't there anymore and while there were still many cards of her, her parents and their attractive young family, it was bound to be different. Still, 'Don' and Cecile and their children were a very attractive family unit and there was still a strong attachment on the part of the Hessian people towards their former ruling house.

Royals, except from those in major ruling houses like the Windsors, from this post-WW1 period don't seem to have the same hold on the modern imagination as those royals from the Victorian and Edwardian period in general.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: lori_c on February 23, 2007, 03:50:54 PM
I am especially fond of the cards depicting the Princess in the Hesse peasant costume.  It is said this costume is preserved in one of the family homes.  Does anybody know if this is true and if it is in Darmstadt now?  Is it viewable? ???
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Holly on July 10, 2007, 10:45:25 PM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/Royal%20Houses/Hessen/Hessen-Darmstadt/Elisabeth%20Marie%20Alice/KleinElisabeth3.jpg)
Poor Princess Elisabeth.  :'( She was so hauntingly beautiful. There is a great sadness in her face even when she seems to be happy.
I've read that she often used to tell Olga Nikolaevna that she would never see particular things ever again. This seems very strange for such a young child to say and like M. Eager I wonder if she ever had any premonition that she would die young?
I wish I could know more about her.  :(
Does anyone have the above picture except larger?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 10, 2007, 11:49:51 PM
She looked like her mother in looks that in turn made her a deadringer for Affie (her granddad).  :o
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on August 08, 2007, 02:03:13 AM
I have this one which would be nice if it didn't have lines going through it.  :(

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v44/RallyPchan/elizabethofhesse9yc.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ilana on August 08, 2007, 12:03:42 PM
One of the things I just loved about Darmstadt was the feeling of history there.  There is a lovely memorial to Princess Elisabeth in a park next to one of the palaces (it's the one with the ceramics for those who know the place).  You have the feeling that the town is still grieving for her, just as you have the feeling that Ernie really left his imprint on the town with all the architecture and artistic additions he made.  They feel very close...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 08, 2007, 08:37:20 PM
Yes...Sad that the New Palais was gutted.  :'(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on September 06, 2007, 11:22:16 AM
I wonder how many pictures there are of little Elisabeth.  I have only seen a handful...I wish I could find more!!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on September 08, 2007, 08:32:13 AM
At Schloss Fasanerie near Fulda (Hesse, Germany) they currently show an exhibition about the silver of the Hesse-Darmstadt family. Among several Russian pieces there is the christening gift Princess Elisabeth got from one of her Russian aunts, Alexandra or Elisaveta: an Art Noveau silver set of all things necessary to eat an egg. It is shwon in its original wooden box with green material. A tiny and extremely lovely set with the Princess's crowned monogram
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on September 08, 2007, 12:27:15 PM
ohhhh really?
how long is the exhibit going to be on for?
i was just wondering since soon with my german class im going to be traveling to Hesse-Cassel
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Helen on September 09, 2007, 03:27:31 AM
This special exhibition runs till 31 October 2007. (http://www.schloss-fasanerie.de/museum/index.php?en (http://www.schloss-fasanerie.de/museum/index.php?en) and then follow the Special Exhibitions link on the left)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Joyann1 on September 10, 2007, 05:28:58 PM
i was searching but havent found a tread maby im wrong! but lets post some princess elizabeth pictures :D the beautifull girl with drak hair and grey eyes thats died to young.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: lori_c on September 13, 2007, 02:42:38 PM
One of the things I just loved about Darmstadt was the feeling of history there.  There is a lovely memorial to Princess Elisabeth in a park next to one of the palaces (it's the one with the ceramics for those who know the place).  You have the feeling that the town is still grieving for her, just as you have the feeling that Ernie really left his imprint on the town with all the architecture and artistic additions he made.  They feel very close...

I know this may have been answered but I can no longer find it, Are there any memorials or such during the time when the Park is open to the Public.  Isn't it in May?  Is Elizabeth still memorialized along with her family?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2007, 11:49:28 PM
I think her little house is in Wolfgarten.  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: VN on September 14, 2007, 03:06:25 PM
I just came across something really strange while looking up something else, thought I'd share this. Maybe it was discussed before?!

Did anyone ever notice that  Marie/May  (Ernst-Ludiwgs sister), Elisabeth (ELs daughter) and the Ostende victims (ELs wife,son,Daughter in Law,etc) all died on the same date!!  16. November. According to the dates in the family tree printed in my book.

May 1878, Elisabeth 1903, Ostende victims 1937


Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 16, 2007, 09:47:43 PM
A fatal day for the House of Hesse... :o
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on September 16, 2007, 10:56:59 PM
strange indeed... :o
there are two days that always stand out to me in the Hesse family as being fatal days...November 16th...and of course December 14th
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on September 17, 2007, 07:27:44 AM
I just came across something really strange while looking up something else, thought I'd share this. Maybe it was discussed before?!

Did anyone ever notice that  Marie/May  (Ernst-Ludiwgs sister), Elisabeth (ELs daughter) and the Ostende victims (ELs wife,son,Daughter in Law,etc) all died on the same date!!  16. November. According to the dates in the family tree printed in my book.

May 1878, Elisabeth 1903, Ostende victims 1937




Yes, it's been referenced before as part of the "Hesse Curse" and the 2 fatal days. I think David Duff brought it up in Hessian Tapestry. Eerie.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: VN on September 17, 2007, 10:29:00 AM
I noticed the dates by look through the book "Großherzog Ernst Ludwig" by Dr. Max Wauer.  I only knew about the 14. Dezember (Prinz Alberts & Alice's death) and not about the Hessen-family. 

Some Battenbergs/v Hessen u. b. Rhein familymembers are also very close to the dates -

Prinz Alexander von Hessen und bei Rhein + 15. Dez 1888

his son Alexander (Sandro) von Battenberg, later Count Hartenau +17. November 1893.
On this date in 1885 he (as Sovereign of Bulgaria) and his small army defeated the Serbian Army in the famous battle of Slevniza.-but thats a different story - i.m.o also very interesting.

 
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 18, 2007, 07:29:13 PM
November did not seem to be a lucky month for the Hesses... :(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Condecontessa on September 20, 2007, 12:45:41 PM
Did the Hesse family had any realization about the coincidences of the unfortunate events that always happened during the November months? Was there such conversations, diary entries or letters between the family or other relations and friends?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 21, 2007, 03:31:11 AM
I think QV did dicussed it with her contacts...Need to go to the Darmstadt Archievs to dig... ???
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Adagietto on October 03, 2007, 04:06:41 AM
Here is a slightly better image of an attractive picture of the princess shown above:
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/linschoten/Royal/elh.jpg)

The photograph was probably taken at the same time as this one (a favourite of mine), which shows her wearing the same dress:
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r163/linschoten/Royal/elh2.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lemur on October 10, 2007, 10:32:53 AM
I just came across something really strange while looking up something else, thought I'd share this. Maybe it was discussed before?!

Did anyone ever notice that  Marie/May  (Ernst-Ludiwgs sister), Elisabeth (ELs daughter) and the Ostende victims (ELs wife,son,Daughter in Law,etc) all died on the same date!!  16. November. According to the dates in the family tree printed in my book.

May 1878, Elisabeth 1903, Ostende victims 1937




I literallly gasped with shock when I read this. How eerie, ironic and strange. I wonder if there is some dreadful meaning behind it.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ilana on October 10, 2007, 11:29:01 AM
Coincidence, IMO.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 10, 2007, 08:57:10 PM
In Victorian times it would have taken into consideration though. The ever present "Hesseian curse" !  :(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 19, 2007, 05:45:12 PM
she was such a pretty girl....
she really did resemble Ducky....and her younger sister Maria (ducky's other daughter) looks like her as well.
its such a pity she died so young....she would have been such a beauty.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on October 23, 2007, 12:20:17 AM
I wonder if Ducky would still marry Cyril if Elizabeth didn't die at a young age.

I think she still would have, because Elizabeth was closer to her father, and more of her fathers daughter, and this would no doubt only have continued.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2007, 09:34:41 PM
The question was would Ernie marry if she survived. I don't think he would like to subject her to a wicked stepmother.  ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: ashanti01 on October 24, 2007, 01:55:51 PM
Came by it by accident, actually. I yahoo searched for Victoria Melita which gave me this picture

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15693951@N00/1118379111/
Which is suppose to be Earnie, Elizabeth and Ducky but I don't think its them.

If you look to the side of the page, you see the picture of a little girl sitting down on some steps. When I clicked on it was suprised to see it was Elizabeth! It's always fun when you stumble upon things by accident.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on October 24, 2007, 04:06:39 PM
o.O i never seen that picture before!
where did you find it?
 :D ;D :D

There was once a postcard of the image up for sale on ebay--I'm sure it found some lucky home.  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on October 24, 2007, 04:14:43 PM
Came by it by accident, actually. I yahoo searched for Victoria Melita which gave me this picture

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15693951@N00/1118379111/
Which is suppose to be Earnie, Elizabeth and Ducky but I don't think its them.

If you look to the side of the page, you see the picture of a little girl sitting down on some steps. When I clicked on it was suprised to see it was Elizabeth! It's always fun when you stumble upon things by accident.


No, it's definitely not them. The gentleman looks like it could be Ernst of Hohenlohe-Langenburg but the female's face looks a little too slender to be Sandra.  :-\
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on October 24, 2007, 04:23:10 PM
I think it is Alexandra ...how about this picture? Sandra and Beatrice? btw ,a very interesting link thanks for posting;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15693951@N00/386702153/in/set-72157594457164619/
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on October 24, 2007, 07:08:05 PM
hmmm....it could be :-\
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2007, 09:08:17 PM
Indeed ! The younger woman was definitely Baby Bee !  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Svetabel on October 25, 2007, 12:42:36 AM
I think it is Alexandra ...how about this picture? Sandra and Beatrice? btw ,a very interesting link thanks for posting;)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15693951@N00/386702153/in/set-72157594457164619/

At right is definitely Beatrice. The other woman could be a friend or someone else.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on November 12, 2007, 06:20:00 AM
She was so adorable. Ella it is a pity how her life ended so tragically and unexpected. When I look at the photos I sometimes cry becuase it is so sweet to seem them and her great personality but then her death is so horrible.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ilana on November 12, 2007, 10:46:14 AM
I hardly think that Eleonore of Lich would have been a wicked stepmother.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2007, 07:15:32 PM
I don't think so too, however someone who was as spoilt as Elisabeth (like Ducky) would like to go her own way (as she grew older), friction may bound top happen (as Ernie was entirely devoted to his daughter).  ???
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: GDLynn on December 22, 2007, 01:21:03 PM
I made a Youtube video about Elisabeth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrCg4Bvn3l0

Lynn

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on December 24, 2007, 06:11:11 PM
awesome video! the song is perfect for it! ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on January 11, 2008, 09:43:19 AM
lovely Elizabeth...

(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5585/213775747510a8ca991dbno7.jpg)

with her mother - a moving image of the two of them imo  :(

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6481/213853316020509b5ab4bjv4.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 11, 2008, 11:28:03 PM
Indeed...Although Ducky still looked uptight with Elisabeth...no wonder she prefers Ernie.  :(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Annushka on January 21, 2008, 05:54:31 PM
Indeed...Although Ducky still looked uptight with Elisabeth...no wonder she prefers Ernie.  :(


Was she uptight or sad because of the state of her marriage?

Holly
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2008, 08:02:41 PM
Ducky was more of a strict mother, while Ernie was the indulgent father... ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: lori_c on January 25, 2008, 08:36:13 AM
Ernie was definitely an indulgent father. But IMO I feel Ducky was very young when little Elisabeth was born and the cracks in the marriage were already beginning to show.

After the divorce, it would take Ducky the whole six months the child would spend with her to break down the barriers the poor child had built around herself in response to feeling abandoned by Ducky.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on February 12, 2008, 11:38:39 PM
When the Portland Art Museum had their Hesse exhibit a couple of years ago, they put out a wonderful catalogue (thread elsewhere on this site) and on page 193 there is a picture of a child-sized crown that Ernst had made for Elisabeth, circa 1900.  Has anyone ever seen a picture of her wearing this crown?  I don't want to scan the picture for copyright reasons, but it's a little beauty of gold, silver, diamonds and peridots.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Riedesel on March 03, 2008, 12:58:42 PM
Hello,

Below ar two photographs I took last Sunday.

The first is the Memorial to Princess Elisabeth which stands in the 'Herrengarten' a park just north of the old residential castle in Darmstadt.

(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/Riedesel_photo/th_Elisabeth_Denkmal.jpg) (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/Riedesel_photo/Elisabeth_Denkmal.jpg)


The next one is of the grave on the 'Rosenhöhe' in Darmstadt. Quite a remarkable sculpture.

(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/Riedesel_photo/th_Elisabeth_Grab.jpg) (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/Riedesel_photo/Elisabeth_Grab.jpg)


greetings
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 30, 2008, 01:41:24 PM
I have never seen this picture before.....I hope it wasn´t already posted. If so, sorry:)

(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7991/ellazprofiluxs9.th.jpg) (http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ellazprofiluxs9.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Aliss_Kande on March 30, 2008, 02:52:17 PM
I've seen other poses from that session before, but never have I seen that one.  Wonderful!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on July 27, 2008, 11:24:24 PM
I have only seen a couple of color pictures of Elisabeth (the pastel by Kaulbach and a miniature of her in a sailor outfit) and I cannot tell from them the color of Elisabeth's eyes.  They are certainly light-colored, but are they blue, green or gray?  Is there something in a letter or memoir that mentions the color of her eyes?

Also, was there ever a painting done of Elisabeth that perhaps is in Darmstadt or Fasanerie?  I've seen several portraits of Ernie and one of Onor, but none of Ernie's children.  I guess paintings had gone out of fashion somewhat by the time the boys came along, but I wonder why Ernie, who doted so on Elisabeth, and was such a patron of the arts, never commissioned a painting of his daughter?  BTW, was the Kaulbach pastel done posthumously from a photograph?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Russka Princess on July 28, 2008, 05:03:29 AM
i was once in Darmstadt, but i didnt knew that there is a russian church, and scuh lovly garden.  i was in the church and i has a walk in the garden, where i saw the garve of ernie, elenore, his son and his family, and of course of the litlle Ella.  the poor one..  i didnt knew that she was died so young, till i has read the date.

i wish i could go there again, i love darmstadt.


Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 28, 2008, 09:14:07 AM
Yes...but why so few portraits...maybe they were destroyed during the war or was looted...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Russka Princess on July 28, 2008, 09:27:28 AM
yeah.. mabe..
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 28, 2008, 12:44:30 PM
Oh my Gosh :) No paintings! I think little Princess Elisabeth is one of the most portraited members of the Hessian family - there are numerous! Predominantly by artists from Darmstadt and the British court such as Kröh, Weyl, di Scavola, Svoboda, van Sant, Hartmann, Scheich and of course Kaulbach (the coloured Kaulbach you mean was done in the first days of Nov. 1903 in Darmstadt - on that occasion he also painted Tsarina Alexandra, Tsar Nicolas and their daughters, the portrais of the latter hung in Alexandra's Maple Room at Zarskoje Selo - just before leaving for hunting to Skiernewize were she died some days later....
Indeed kind of a testament that portrait. Ernst Ludwig loved that particular one - he owned at least 5 copies of it and one hung in Alexandra's bedroom.

Elisabeth was obviously blonde as a baby - there is a wonderful large paiting by Kröh dating 1895
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on July 28, 2008, 02:40:49 PM
I think little Princess Elisabeth is one of the most portraited members of the Hessian family - there are numerous! Predominantly by artists from Darmstadt and the British court such as Kröh, Weyl, di Scavola, Svoboda, van Sant, Hartmann, Scheich and of course Kaulbach

Wonderful!  But where are they?  Can we view any of them online or in a book?  Thanks for the information on the Kaulbach, also!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on July 28, 2008, 03:10:44 PM
I have only seen a couple of color pictures of Elisabeth (the pastel by Kaulbach and a miniature of her in a sailor outfit) and I cannot tell from them the color of Elisabeth's eyes.  They are certainly light-colored, but are they blue, green or gray?  Is there something in a letter or memoir that mentions the color of her eyes?


I think I found an answer to my own question.  In Meriel Buchanan's memoir about Ernie it describes Elisabeth's eyes as "pansy-blue".
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 28, 2008, 05:33:15 PM
Most are in Darmstadt, Schlossmuseum - and perhaps at Wolfsgarten. I've never seen one in a book...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 28, 2008, 09:59:28 PM
Yes.."I have never seen one in a book". I have been to Darmstadt and didn't see any portrait of young Elisabeth. Wolfgarten maybe...but it is closed to public...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 29, 2008, 03:00:52 AM
Of course you haven't. They're all kept in store rooms
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 29, 2008, 10:58:39 AM
If they "still" exist that is...one needs to see to believe.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on July 29, 2008, 11:07:44 AM
I'd place my trust in Thomas on this.  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 29, 2008, 11:13:40 AM
Faith I persume not trust.  ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Marlene on July 29, 2008, 11:17:41 AM
Exactly,   the archives at Wolfsgarden have a massive amounts of material including portraits.  SOme years ago, I spent several hours in the orivate archives doing research


I'd place my trust in Thomas on this.  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 29, 2008, 11:22:38 AM
We shall see when it surfaces. When the Neus Palace was bombed, quite a few portraits went with it. It would be good news that some of those were actually saved. I saw a huge book on the Neus Palace where the rooms were photographed. A gem of a book. One of the picture was a room with a huge portrait of Ella in her full glory in court dress and jewels...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 29, 2008, 12:58:23 PM
When the Neus Palace was bombed, quite a few portraits went with it. It would be good news that some of those were actually saved.

You forget that Prince Ludwig of Hesse and the Rhine, the last Grand Duke's son, sold the Neues Palais in 1941 in order to live exclusively at Schloss Wolfsgarten. He transferred the complete collection of art kept in the Neues Palais to that place - nothing was left there when it was bombed just 3 years later. He lost large part of the tings exhibited in the Residential Palace, tough.

And believe me - there are innumerable family portraits from many centuries
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Helen on July 29, 2008, 01:59:05 PM
If any AP forum member knows about portraits and other treasures in the store rooms of the Residential Palace, it is probably you. 
Can you tel us more about the portraits by the painters you mentioned yesterday? For instance, about their styles, and are they large ones, or more miniature size, like the one shown in a heart-shaped Fabergé frame on page 193 of "Hesse - A Princely German Collection"?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on July 29, 2008, 02:13:53 PM
Faith I persume not trust.  ;)

No, trust. I know he knows his stuff.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 30, 2008, 11:44:50 AM
Well for the rest of us, seeing is believing...I sincerely hope to see them soon.  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 30, 2008, 02:09:02 PM
If any AP forum member knows about portraits and other treasures in the store rooms of the Residential Palace, it is probably you. 
Can you tel us more about the portraits by the painters you mentioned yesterday? For instance, about their styles, and are they large ones, or more miniature size, like the one shown in a heart-shaped Fabergé frame on page 193 of "Hesse - A Princely German Collection"?

Heyho!

Most portraits of Princess Elisabeth I have seen are very much in the "classical" style common at the turn of the century: meaning quite naturalistic sujets.
The earliest dates from 1895 and was done in pastel by the courtpainter Kröh (who became 100) showing her head in a close-up position. There is anotherone by him dating 1897 I guess - she is sitting on the floor (in profile), dressed up in white lace and plays with one of her many dogs (she hated - by the way - dolls and could not get along with them :)
In 1901 the Grand Duke met Lucien Victor Guirand de Scevola who painted a series of portraits of his family - including an interesting group of Victoria Melita and Elisabeth (whose hair was obviously light brwon with a slight touch of red) in dresses reminding one very much of the 15th century style. He also sketched Elisabeth (charcole) alone while she was waiting for a train - sitting on a bunch of suitcases dressed up in a large bonnet and cape. That one is in a very impressionistical style.
One is not inscribed - showing her 2/3 in a white coat and holding three large white orchidees.
My favourite is a gouache by van Sant who had even painted her father and aunt Princess Alix (the future Tsarina) some 25 years before as toddlers. She is sitting and wears a nice dress of white lace and yellow silk and round her neck is a large blue flower-shape pendant as well as a tiny pearl band. The date is presumably 1899 as there are 7 perls and the Grand Duke used to give her one perl for each 6 month of her live.
One is an Art-Noveau watercolor by Joseph Hartmann (who was employed by her great-granduncle) showing her in Grand Duchess Alice's rotunda reception room at the Neues Palais in 1897.
The Schweich is a portrait plaque made of metal - showing her looking out of her playhouse at Wolfsgarten (1902) (after the well known photograph).
There are no miniatures whatsoever - the one you mean is at Wolfsgarten.
Most portraits are quite large (except for the Hartmann and van Sant)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on July 30, 2008, 06:40:04 PM
Thank you so much for your very detailed descriptions of Elisabeth's portraits.  Hopefully some day one or more will be on display so the public (especially Elisabeth's fans) can enjoy them.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Helen on July 31, 2008, 12:21:42 AM
Yes, thank you for this information. It's a pity these paintings have been put away 'in the attic'.

The 1895 painting sounds interesting, as she was not even one year old at the time. It may have been an age at which it was easier to paint her portrait than in 1897, when she must have been more active and mobile.

Princess Elisabeth waiting for a train makes a rather unusual composition, doesn't it? Paintings of emperors hunting or on a horseback or princesses at a piano, okay, but a charcoal sketch of a royal child at a railway station? It must have been a realistic scene, though, as she must have travelled back and forth from one parent to the other quite often, and a more impressionistic style probably was just the style for such a theme.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 31, 2008, 10:57:16 AM
I wonder why they did not put more portraits of Elizabeth in the Hesse Exhibition catalogue. I like her crown though... ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 31, 2008, 11:33:38 AM

Schloss Fasanerie is currently showing an exhibition "Fürstenkinder" (Royal children) showing numerous portraits from 4 centuries belonging to the House of Hesse. Possibly it will be shown in Darmstadt as well....the cataogue will include a lovely portrait of Princess May of Hesse (Henry Gales, 1878 - tho I think they identified it wrongly as Princess Alix....) and one of Princess Alice by Winterhalter wearing a rococo fancy dress. I think the Kröh of ELisabeth will be also in th book.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Helen on July 31, 2008, 12:55:49 PM
The Schloss Fasanerie web site (http://www.schloss-fasanerie.de/aktuell/index.php?en&page=content_ausstellungen.php) says that the accompanying exhibition catalogue will be published in July. Today being the 31st of July, I sincerely hope they mean July of this year and will update their site soon. ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on August 01, 2008, 11:57:36 PM
I think this is a story about the opening of the exhibition: http://www.osthessen-news.de/beitrag_C.php?id=1150038

On the fourth panel are portraits of Ella and VMH as children.  Ella was a little chub of a thing, and Victoria looks the same way she did most of her life.

Using my dreadful German (for which I apologized profusely) I inquired about the publication of the catalogue, using the email address provided on the Museum Schoss Fanaserie website.  Hopefully (if the can understand my letter!) they will let me know when it will be available.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: CharlotteSometimes on August 02, 2008, 12:20:03 AM
BTW, the German version of Amazon.com says the book will be available "August 2008" and the price will be 19,95 Euros.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Helen on August 02, 2008, 01:27:17 AM
BTW, the German version of Amazon.com says the book will be available "August 2008" and the price will be 19,95 Euros.
Thank you for the information, Charlotte.
For forum members who do not speak German: the book's title is "Fürstenkinder: Porträts vom 16. bis 20. Jahrhundert im Hause Hessen. Ausstellung Schloss Fasanerie bei Fulda", ISBN-13: 978-3865683830. It is a softcover edition and can be pre-ordered now. :-)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 19, 2008, 06:08:05 AM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/2137757475_10a8ca991d_b1.jpg)*

With Victoria Melita:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/DuckyconElla-11.jpg)

With Ernie and Victoria Melita:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/ErnieElisabethVictoriaMelita1.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: miki_nastya on November 17, 2008, 08:08:40 AM
Are there any photos of Elisabeth whit her romanian cousins ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2008, 12:17:24 PM
Haven't seen one....
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on November 18, 2008, 12:26:05 PM
(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6113/21429729014173321faboqf6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4381/2237272186c8ef0df4f0oks0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Nate1865 on November 18, 2008, 02:42:12 PM
Wow Elizabeth really does look like her mother even though she was a daddy's girl.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Nate1865 on November 18, 2008, 02:44:22 PM
Does anyone know how old Ducky was when Elizabeth was born? I know Ernie was 26 when she was born.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on November 18, 2008, 03:04:11 PM
18 .
Quote
Does anyone know how old Ducky was when Elizabeth was born? I know Ernie was 26 when she was born.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 26, 2008, 06:48:22 PM



BTW i found this picture of Elisabeth posted here before.The only i ve seen of her as a "baby"

(http://i37.tinypic.com/fw6kb4.jpg)

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Gabriella on February 16, 2009, 05:06:43 PM
Thanks for posting the picture of little Elizabeth. It's  is a very nice one. I had not seen it afore. Does anybody know when it was made?

I agree with all of you that had she grown up she would have resembled her mother. But I think she also would have resembled her aunt Ella. There*s something in the way little Elizabeth looks that reminds me of her.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on February 17, 2009, 03:57:55 AM
It was made in 1902 - I did not know that it was made by Hugo Thiele which is funny because I own an engagement-photograph of my great-grandparents by him dating from the very same year. Even on the same grey cardboard...

It is not my favourite because the Princess is so badly dressed.... much too short skirt and the collar so strange. Her mother seems to have had better taste concerning her daughter's dresses.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2009, 09:50:44 AM
I think it might be her father's taste since she spent quality with Ernie too...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on April 09, 2009, 02:22:31 PM
Found this picture.  I've never seen this before!

http://family.webshots.com/photo/2597474150086498967wlullr

Is anyone aware of any letters that Elisabeth wrote?  Or if any exist?  You'd think that Ernie would save them.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on April 09, 2009, 02:24:34 PM
The card has been up for sale on ebay before. I'm waiting on a 1903 German magazine set to see if they have any photos of the funeral or photos of Elizabeth. The Illustrated London News published the photo seen prior to the funeral card on the webshots site but that was it.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on April 13, 2009, 08:01:43 AM
Found this picture.  I've never seen this before!

http://family.webshots.com/photo/2597474150086498967wlullr

Is anyone aware of any letters that Elisabeth wrote?  Or if any exist?  You'd think that Ernie would save them.

Some of her papers got preserved! Letters as well as books for exercises, reports and such.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on April 15, 2009, 02:37:48 PM
That is great news.  Are there any shown on the internet by any chance?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on April 15, 2009, 03:39:23 PM
I don't think so - they are probably of no importance to historians. You might ask Penny Wilson and Greg King - they got to see some of those papers due to their research on Elisabeth's father.

In a German booklet on the Princess there is a facsimile of some lines from a letter she wrote to her father - in English.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ally Kumari on August 01, 2009, 10:31:45 AM
Courtesy of Mrs. Fujita
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/th_3700815342_b365b40f25_o.jpg) (http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/royalty/3700815342_b365b40f25_o.jpg)

BTW: was she EliZabeth or EliSabeth ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on August 01, 2009, 02:56:30 PM

Elisabeth!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ally Kumari on August 02, 2009, 03:58:57 AM
Thank you! I´ve seen both versions and wasn´t certain.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Agneschen on August 02, 2009, 05:01:03 AM
The pictures of the litte princess published in England probably referred to her in the English version of her name "Elizabeth", same as she must have been "Isabel" in Spain or "Elisabetta" in Italy and so on and so forth. But she was German and consequently christened EliSabeth.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Jarian on September 04, 2009, 03:01:35 PM
Is there any footage of Elisabeth? sorry if this was asked before and i did do a search and found nothing
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on November 24, 2009, 05:09:00 AM
The monument to elasabeth was erected in a park, very close to the Residential palace. I wonder if this park was open for visitors before 1918. Was the garden the integral part of the Residential palace? After 1918, when ernst ludwig abdicated th epalace became the property of hesse, obviously. 
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Riedesel on November 24, 2009, 06:09:28 AM
The monument to elasabeth was erected in a park, very close to the Residential palace. I wonder if this park was open for visitors before 1918. Was the garden the integral part of the Residential palace? After 1918, when ernst ludwig abdicated th epalace became the property of hesse, obviously. 
I know this is 'off topic', sorry.
The Herrengarten is not really an integral part of the residential palace complex. Between the Schloß and Garten is the old court/state theater and the state Museum (previously the military exercise square). As far as I know the garden was always publicly accessible since its founding in the middle of the 18th century.

I don't believe Ernst Ludwig ever abdicated. He lost his throne in the revolution of 1918, but he was one of the few (if not the only) monarchs who never officially abdicated.

just my 2 euro cents
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on November 24, 2009, 06:18:58 AM
The monument to elasabeth was erected in a park, very close to the Residential palace. I wonder if this park was open for visitors before 1918. Was the garden the integral part of the Residential palace? After 1918, when ernst ludwig abdicated th epalace became the property of hesse, obviously. 
I know this is 'off topic', sorry.
The Herrengarten is not really an integral part of the residential palace complex. Between the Schloß and Garten is the old court/state theater and the state Museum (previously the military exercise square). As far as I know the garden was always publicly accessible since its founding in the middle of the 18th century.

I don't believe Ernst Ludwig ever abdicated. He lost his throne in the revolution of 1918, but he was one of the few (if not the only) monarchs who never officially abdicated.

just my 2 euro cents


yes,you`re right. he didn`t abdicate. it should be LOST HIS THRONE OR CROWN. I was in darmstadt and i visited the herrengarten (by the way, how do you translate this name?) but was not sure as to the accessibility of the garden before 1918.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Riedesel on November 24, 2009, 12:52:35 PM
greetings

Herrengarten could loosely be translated as 'the lords garden' (Lord as in ruler not the religious meaning) or garden of the masters/rulers. It certainly doesn't mean gentlemen's garden or garden of the men.

Here is a photo of the information board next to the Prinzesschen's Memorial in the garden
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/Riedesel_photo/th_Elisabeth_Denkmal_info.jpg) (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/Riedesel_photo/?action=view&current=Elisabeth_Denkmal_info.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on November 24, 2009, 01:24:52 PM
greetings

Herrengarten could loosely be translated as 'the lords garden' (Lord as in ruler not the religious meaning) or garden of the masters/rulers. It certainly doesn't mean gentlemen's garden or garden of the men.

Here is a photo of the information board next to the Prinzesschen's Memorial in the garden
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/Riedesel_photo/th_Elisabeth_Denkmal_info.jpg) (http://s264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/Riedesel_photo/?action=view&current=Elisabeth_Denkmal_info.jpg)


thanks a lot for clarification
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Adagietto on November 24, 2009, 01:33:31 PM
Thank you for posting the photo of the information board.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Jarian on November 27, 2009, 01:21:37 PM
Please does anyone know if there is footage of Princess Elisabeth?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Condecontessa on November 28, 2009, 07:53:04 PM
You would think there'll be a video made of Elizabeth since she was the only child of the Grand Duke. And the Grand Duke was known to love her only daughter very much. Maybe it's still in the archives. I also wonder if the Tsar filmed her daughters with Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 30, 2009, 12:26:33 PM
Maybe. Although I don't seem to come across a photo of Elisabeth with the Tsar. There are quite a few of Elizabeth with Olga & Tatiana.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Condecontessa on November 30, 2009, 05:59:01 PM
What about with the Tsarina?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 30, 2009, 06:06:13 PM
In group photos...like the one of the wedding group in Darmstadt for Andrew of Greece and Alice of Battenberg.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Marlene on December 04, 2009, 03:15:26 PM

Video cameras did not exist -- or camcorders ... so it was unlikely that the Tsar filmed his daughters ... royals loved using cameras, however
You would think there'll be a video made of Elizabeth since she was the only child of the Grand Duke. And the Grand Duke was known to love her only daughter very much. Maybe it's still in the archives. I also wonder if the Tsar filmed her daughters with Elizabeth.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2009, 04:34:56 PM
Video camera does not exist but film does. There is a short film of Nicky & Alicky with Queen Victoria in Balmoral during their engagement. By the time Elisabeth was born, it is technically possible to film her if Ernst had wanted to.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 04, 2009, 05:07:07 PM
Films in 1893??. Are you sure?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2009, 05:08:52 PM
Yes. A very short film with Queen Victoria in a wagon and Nicky & Alicky on the side. The cart moved away from the camera and came back. Very early film.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 04, 2009, 05:18:09 PM
i was reading about it and it was possible since there are a short movie from 1888
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2009, 06:18:44 PM
Indeed. If you look at the film on Christian IX's family or Metteriand's, you can see family film started quite early. The Fredenborg days were recorded in film. By the time of Elisabeth, it is possible to film her.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Marlene on December 04, 2009, 08:30:56 PM
Very limited - the cameras were rather large and bulky - and expensive.  The idea of home movies was largely non-existent.

Films in 1893??. Are you sure?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2009, 12:16:31 PM
Yet they existed. Tsar Nicholas later did film his children on board the Standart. If Grand Duke Ernst of Hesse wanted to film his family and daughter, technically it was possible. It is a question if he wanted to or not. Also remember that Darmstadt was bombed pretty bad during the wars, the footage if it ever existed could have been lost.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 24, 2010, 05:40:23 PM



Back to Elisabeth. Was Ella close to her namesake ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 24, 2010, 06:26:10 PM



I don't know how close the 2 Elisabeths would be--how many times did they even meet? I'm sure she was special to Ella though, given her very close relationship to Ernest Ludwig.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 24, 2010, 07:13:50 PM
When Ducky & Ernie goes to Russia to visit (before the divorce of course) or when Ella came to Darmstadt, there are quite a few opportunities.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Margot on February 25, 2010, 03:33:11 AM
When Ducky & Ernie goes to Russia to visit (before the divorce of course) or when Ella came to Darmstadt, there are quite a few opportunities.

I am loathe to even quote the above as it makes no grammatical sense at all which is ironic when one knows that the author made a point of expounding their attendance to a British school no less! Anyway, I just wanted to point out that GDElla was not asking when the two Elisabeths may have met, but rather how many times they actually met? If the author of the above had bothered to read GDElla's query instead of dashing off yet another vacuous, inane, half baked, semi coherent piece of 'speculative' assumption, said author might have deigned to actually provided a figure of these opportunities during visits to and from Russia and Darmstadt, rather than make a reply that looks suspiciously like a post made for the sake of it!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Greenowl on February 25, 2010, 04:32:54 AM
If the author of the above had bothered to read GDElla's query instead of dashing off yet another vacuous, inane, half baked, semi coherent piece of 'speculative' assumption, said author might have deigned to actually provided a figure of these opportunities during visits to and from Russia and Darmstadt, rather than make a reply that looks suspiciously like a post made for the sake of it!

Dear Margot, I quite agree! Such a dreadful waste of space.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 25, 2010, 09:37:50 AM
Thank you, Margot. Yes, I was wondering how many times they actually would have met. Obviously, with them being family, I know the given opportunities. Yet, for instance, I don't believe Elisabeth accompanied her parents to Russia in 1896, did she? Did they visit Russia any other time? I've only seen the 2 Elisabeths together from 1903 when everyone gathered for Alice Battenberg's wedding.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 25, 2010, 12:27:11 PM
Does anyone have this painting by Friedrich August von Kaulbach of little Princess Ella?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: AceOfSpades on February 25, 2010, 02:21:57 PM
When Ducky & Ernie goes to Russia to visit (before the divorce of course) or when Ella came to Darmstadt, there are quite a few opportunities.

I am loathe to even quote the above as it makes no grammatical sense at all which is ironic when one knows that the author made a point of expounding their attendance to a British school no less! Anyway, I just wanted to point out that GDElla was not asking when the two Elisabeths may have met, but rather how many times they actually met? If the author of the above had bothered to read GDElla's query instead of dashing off yet another vacuous, inane, half baked, semi coherent piece of 'speculative' assumption, said author might have deigned to actually provided a figure of these opportunities during visits to and from Russia and Darmstadt, rather than make a reply that looks suspiciously like a post made for the sake of it!


Marry me?  Please?  UGH - when I stop and think of how many pages on this forum that I've sifted through - page after page after page after page of this nonsense!! 

Now that I've added my own nonsensical post,  I'll stop.

Thanks again for the sigh of relief - and well deserved chuckle,  Ms. Margot!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2010, 02:34:11 PM
Elisabeth was in every family group in Darmsatdt before she died in Russia. Ella had ample opportunity to know her. However there is an absence of letters and jounals where Ella specifically asking about her.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on February 26, 2010, 04:52:36 PM
Yet, for instance, I don't believe Elisabeth accompanied her parents to Russia in 1896, did she? Did they visit Russia any other time? I've only seen the 2 Elisabeths together from 1903 when everyone gathered for Alice Battenberg's wedding.

She accompanied her parents in 1896! You certainly know the group pictures made at Ilynskoe - Elisabeth sits on her grandmother's lap I think.
She also visited Moscou in 1901 - and for Moscou was Ella's home I guess it was during a visit to her!

The House of Hesse keeps a wooden box containing a lovely little set of tiny dishes made of silver - bearing the Art Noveau "E". Ella's christening present for her niece.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 26, 2010, 06:24:44 PM
Thanks for the information. I know about the photograph but not about the dishes. Ella must have loved her name sake. Too bad there are not more letters from Ella to Ernie or Ducky, that would shed some light on the relationship.  :(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on February 26, 2010, 08:27:07 PM
Yet, for instance, I don't believe Elisabeth accompanied her parents to Russia in 1896, did she? Did they visit Russia any other time? I've only seen the 2 Elisabeths together from 1903 when everyone gathered for Alice Battenberg's wedding.

She accompanied her parents in 1896! You certainly know the group pictures made at Ilynskoe - Elisabeth sits on her grandmother's lap I think.
She also visited Moscou in 1901 - and for Moscou was Ella's home I guess it was during a visit to her!

The House of Hesse keeps a wooden box containing a lovely little set of tiny dishes made of silver - bearing the Art Noveau "E". Ella's christening present for her niece.

Yes, you're right Thomas! I do know that image and it totally slipped my mind.  :-[ There is one, at least, of young Elisabeth sitting on Victoria Melita's lap with Ella right near her. So that was 2, with the other you listed, visits to Russia and how ever many Ella made to Darmstadt.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 26, 2010, 08:45:31 PM
I wonder if Elisabeth met Ella on her last trip to Russia (where she died).
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on February 26, 2010, 11:04:00 PM
Did Ella go on that trip? i thought it was just the Czar and his family that went.  :-\
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Rani on February 27, 2010, 11:35:47 AM
(http://i47.tinypic.com/5lcp05.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2010, 11:47:42 AM
The baby looked a bit frightful here. It must be the artist.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on February 27, 2010, 12:36:47 PM
On a different tack, if Victoria Melita had set off from Coburg as soon as she heard of Elizabeth's illness, would she actually have made it in time?

I haven't managed to find the imperial hunting lodges in Poland on the map, but Coburg to Warsaw is almost 600 miles, and the journey would involve at least two changes of train (Coburg-Berlin, Berlin-Warsaw, then another change). Realistically, it was going to take of the order of 24 hours, allowing for the inevitable waiting time. Even if Victoria Melita were able to rustle up a special train, it wouldn't be like getting into a car and setting off, as a special train would have to be fitted into the scheduled services.

Obviously there is a difference between setting off and not arriving in time and not setting off at all, but even so.

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on February 27, 2010, 02:14:45 PM
The baby looked a bit frightful here. It must be the artist.

Normally for someone to be a beautiful child, there ugly as a baby.  :P



Can anyone list books any books that are about or have Princess Elisabeth included in books?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 27, 2010, 07:31:50 PM
Most of those books on the history of the Hesse family, Mountbatten Family have included Elisabeth.

I agree Ducky would not have reached her daughter in time. She must be devesated when she realized that.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on March 04, 2010, 05:50:41 AM
Margot, perhaps a simple "that's not what she asked" would have done just as fine.  There is really no need to insult.
As well as those that agreed with Margot.  Why didn't you say anything before then?  Or will you stay quiet until someone else starts?

I first came to this site to get away from such behavior, but I suppose nowhere is safe.


And for Eric_Lowe, yes it is Maria I drew for my avatar.  =)


To stay on topic, I haven't come across anything saying when the two Ella's were together.  If someone happens to find something, please be sure to post it here!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2010, 09:42:11 AM
Thank you, I found the insults hard to bear sometimes. we are here to share information and discuss.  :)

I think Ernst named his first daughter after Ella, is because she was his favourite sister. Ella had a charm that enchants as it comes forward in the bios of Sandro (Grand Duke Alexander, husband of Xenia), Missy (Queen Marie of Romania), Greek Minny (Grand Duchess George of Russia) and Prince Felix Yussopov. She was also the favourite Russian Royal of Prince Charles. It was apparent that Ernst hoped that his daughter would have the same qualities. It would resonable to believe that Ella would have taken a serious interest in her namesake, as she was friendly with Elisabeth's mother Ducky (Victoria Melita of Edinburgh/Coburg). Before the coronation of Nicholas & Alexandra, Ella wrote to Ducky to advice her of the clothes she would need and measurements of the court trains (dresses).

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on March 04, 2010, 10:28:46 AM
(http://archive.liveauctioneers.com/archive4/galeriebassengeberlin/15454/1539_1_lg.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2010, 10:43:22 AM
Lovely picture. Is it an illustration to a book ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on March 04, 2010, 10:46:04 AM
That looks like little Elisabeth's playhouse in the back.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on March 04, 2010, 11:10:00 AM
It may be reasonable to suppose that Ella took an interest in young Elizabeth, but the issue is whether she actually saw much of her, or wrote to her regularly if not.

Given that they lived in different countries, it is also logical to suppose that they met once or twice a year and for relatively brief periods.


Eric, you obviously think that the sun shines out of Ella, but, being a cynic, the more people rage about her looks and charm, the more I start to wonder whether she was really as remarkable as all that!

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 04, 2010, 12:45:49 PM
Yes. I do admit I have a weakness as far as Ella is concerned. But I am not blind to the faults she had. There was most certainly jealousy between her and her niece Marie Paulovna the younger for Serge's attention. But also how most writers pick up on the chorus of adoration of one who was stylish, beautiful, kind, spirtual and eventually a saint. In Zoia's short book on the Romanovs, the title was "They all fell in love with Ella." Need I say more ?

Indeed. However since Ella destroyed much of her corresondence and did not leave a diary (unlike her sister Alicky). It is sometimes hard to know how she felt exactly on issues like the relationship with her niece Elisabeth of Hesse. I hope that one day Serge's diary would be translated to English. It might give amore balance picture on Ella. Sorry I am a bit OT. I do apologize.  :-[
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on March 13, 2010, 03:19:15 AM
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=343094909106
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 13, 2010, 09:23:12 AM
Thank you, I found the insults hard to bear sometimes. we are here to share information and discuss.  :)

Yes I agree but let's make sure the information is correct and reliable as much as possible? You do make frequent mistakes Eric.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 13, 2010, 11:42:37 AM
Well...We all make mistakes, and it is not okay to attack someone "personally" even if we got it wrong sometimes. It is like you can make a stupid mistake, but you are not stupid.

Back to Elisabeth, I wonder if her letters to her cousins were ever published. I would think Ernie kept them in tact (abid the Victoria tradition of keeping everything as it was).
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mechminx on April 06, 2010, 03:45:53 AM
Elisabeth's story is so touching and tragic - she would have been 38 when Hitler came to power - would she have joined the Nazi Party like some of her Imperial relatives?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 06, 2010, 03:58:25 AM
Possibly, like most German royals joined the Nazis out of popularly and turned a blind eye to the complete wrong doing of the nazis.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 06, 2010, 08:15:04 PM
Most likely she would have (sadly)...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ally Kumari on April 07, 2010, 02:50:32 AM
Possibly, like most German royals joined the Nazis out of popularly and turned a blind eye to the complete wrong doing of the nazis.

By the time of WW2 Elisabeth may have been married to a foreign Prince and not living in Germany.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 07, 2010, 04:55:48 AM
I wouldn't really be sure of that since it didn't happen and also kinda silly of us to play the "What if" game knowing that Elisabeth died at eight years old.

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mechminx on April 07, 2010, 05:27:37 AM
What-if's are a valid historical exercise and many Hessian-Damstadt former royals did join the Nazis

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on April 07, 2010, 08:31:33 AM
I wouldn't really be sure of that since it didn't happen and also kinda silly of us to play the "What if" game knowing that Elisabeth died at eight years old.



i DO agree because through playing "what if " games we indulge in some speculations that lead nowhere. especially when we talk about a girl whoe life ended at 8.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 07, 2010, 04:11:17 PM
Yes. It is fun to speculate, but in the end produce no answers.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Svetabel on April 08, 2010, 01:46:46 AM
Yes. It is fun to speculate, but in the end produce no answers.

And all "what if" discussions must be at the Having Fun section.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on April 08, 2010, 06:46:32 AM
Yes. It is fun to speculate, but in the end produce no answers.

And all "what if" discussions must be at the Having Fun section.

I totally agree with Sveta because answering WHAT IF questions does not provide you with any valuable info.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mechminx on April 09, 2010, 01:57:59 AM
My apologies - i must have come across as a right bonehead
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on April 09, 2010, 12:41:47 PM
its ok, and no your not a bonehead, you just asked a question which was impossible to anwser.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 09, 2010, 03:11:35 PM
I do wonder what Sandra and Baby Bee thought of their niece Elisabeth ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 09, 2010, 06:15:04 PM
Sorry if that was already posted.

(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab42/GabiNicolaevna/ErnstwithElisabeth.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 09, 2010, 11:17:31 PM
Maybe not this pose I guess.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 10, 2010, 09:25:53 AM
I found this one labeled as Ella. Is that her??

(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab42/GabiNicolaevna/untitled2.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on August 10, 2010, 09:47:28 AM
Yes, I believe it is.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 10, 2010, 09:52:20 AM
Thank you, grandduchessella. I thought so because of her cheeks! ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 10, 2010, 11:14:05 AM
yes she is. Thats part of an Albumn about the edimburghs that someone bought and put it on Flickr (This person got so mad when he saw his pictures spread on the web !)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 10, 2010, 12:03:29 PM
oooh, then I'm sorry for posting, had no idea! *blushes*
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 10, 2010, 12:36:02 PM
Was that a cross on her head ?  ???
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 10, 2010, 12:41:49 PM
It looks like. Weird, but really looks like a cross
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 10, 2010, 12:43:02 PM
Indeed. Some kind of head ornament.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 10, 2010, 01:38:20 PM
No worries.. Here s the full albumn with more pictures

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15693951@N00/sets/72157605773043057/
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 11, 2010, 06:45:45 AM
Elisabeth was so cute ! It must have been sad for Ernie not to have a daughter after her death.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 13, 2010, 07:36:39 AM
The nanswer of who s that baby is in this picture

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15693951@N00/1118379111/in/set-72157605773043057/

If we can identify who are that couple , perhaps we would find out who is that baby.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 13, 2010, 11:35:33 AM
That was of course Ducky's sister Sandra & her husband Ernst of Hohenlohe-Langenburg.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 13, 2010, 03:47:38 PM
Actually she looked more like Grand Duchess Olga of Russia, Alicky's daughter.

looks nothing like Olga
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 13, 2010, 03:54:53 PM
I think the baby looks very much like her...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 13, 2010, 09:01:40 PM
this one I believe it's Ella :)

(http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab42/GabiNicolaevna/untitled5.jpg)


If it isn't, I apologise! It would be the second I got wrong >,<   ;)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 13, 2010, 09:52:13 PM
Oh, yay!! :D
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Gabriella on August 15, 2010, 11:11:41 AM
The nanswer of who s that baby is in this picture

http://www.flickr.com/photos/15693951@N00/1118379111/in/set-72157605773043057/

If we can identify who are that couple , perhaps we would find out who is that baby.

The couple in the picture are Ernst of Hohenlohe-Langenburg and his wife Alexandra (the sister of Victoria-Melita). I think the toddler is their
son Gottfried, but I am not sure.

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 15, 2010, 11:24:41 AM
i cant find pictures of Gottfried as a baby. I hope someone has a few to reveal the mystery!

EDIT

I found a picture of him as a kid. Now im 99% sure that baby is him!!

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2122/2513562170_5703d7c3ea_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 15, 2010, 12:13:52 PM
IMO, he looks like Alexei, a bit... :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 15, 2010, 12:21:58 PM
In my opinion, not at all. Alexei had softly features in his face.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on August 15, 2010, 12:36:15 PM
Yes, sure. But the lips and the look reminded me Alexei's photo on 1913's session :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 15, 2010, 01:49:07 PM
they're family, genes  ::)

 now i really think it Gottfried, it makes sense.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 15, 2010, 03:56:28 PM
He looks like his mother.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on August 15, 2010, 10:11:52 PM
i agree the picture looks definately like Gottfried and not Elisabeth
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: ashanti01 on October 02, 2010, 01:40:30 PM
Elizabeth and GD Tatiana on ponies

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/101.jpg)

GD Tatiana, Elizabeth and GD Olga on ponies

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/103.jpg)

pretty little Elizabeth

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/106.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on October 02, 2010, 02:20:14 PM
i wonder where these pictures were taken:in russia or germany
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Veronica on October 02, 2010, 02:40:57 PM
They were taken in Darmstadd
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on October 02, 2010, 02:41:29 PM
Wolfsgarten to be precise
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on October 02, 2010, 04:08:47 PM
I haven`t been to wolfgarten but i`m sure i will one day when its host opens the doors to visitors. i heard so much about the palace and its gardens
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on October 03, 2010, 04:23:22 AM
You have to, Violetta! its a magical place and when passing the park gates you will immediately understand what made it so dear and special to its former inhabitants!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on October 03, 2010, 11:20:14 AM
I`ve been to Darmstadt twice. there is something charming and attractive about it. i enjoy walking here, sitting in a cafe opposite the schloss. Spending time in Rosehohe... Walking in the schlossgarten or spending time in Kranichstein...I was in Germany in July but this time I was visiting the north of the country. But inexplicably i felt like going to damstadt all the time. So I`ll try to visit Wolfsgarten either in spring or in September net year.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2010, 03:09:52 PM
Wolfgarten is the place that I would love to see. Only the gardens are available.  :(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on October 05, 2010, 05:55:18 AM
From where did you get these photographs?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 05, 2010, 06:28:36 AM
Here

http://statearchive.ru/434
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2010, 02:34:42 PM
Amazing collection ! I did not know Sandra was in Russia or Moretta & Mossy were close friends of Ducky...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on October 05, 2010, 03:54:17 PM
How did u manage to send it that large? I would like to have the one of Ernst Ludwig hugging little Tatiana (or vice versa....) such a great picture. But I cannot download it - copyright I guess
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 05, 2010, 04:21:28 PM
Here s the answer to your problem

Right click on the image to open in new tab or window. It will allow you to save  ; )
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2010, 04:37:43 PM
I wonder if Elisabeth wrote letters to Olga ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: imperial angel on December 10, 2010, 03:46:57 AM
Interesting.. they were both so young though; but it's possible.It would be interesting if they did, but unlikely.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2010, 01:53:10 PM
I think they might be at the Winter Palace archievs had they existed...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on December 28, 2010, 03:43:13 PM
I just came across a terrible story concerning Elisabeth's governess "Gina", Georgina Freiin von Rotsmann.

When Darmstadt was heavily destructed by bombs in September 1944 she still lived in a house in the city - and was rescued at the last moment. The poor lady was already 73 years old and suffered from severe pneumonia. Soldiers rescued her when the whole street was bombed and burnt down. She had to be showered with cool water again and again in order to protect her from the sparks.
She could hardly talk when 2 days after the air raid she was brought to Wolfsgarten - having mumbled "Prince Ludwig - Wolfsgarten" with her very last strenght.

Gina would live up to her 90th year and died in 1960
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: violetta on January 06, 2011, 02:56:39 PM
a few pictures of little elzabeth. by the way, who is she with?

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/elizabethofhesse.jpg)

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/elizhesse.jpg)


(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/eofhesse.jpg)


(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/ernielizabth.jpg)

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Veronica on January 06, 2011, 06:11:11 PM
She is with her cousins Louise, George and Louis Battenberg.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Svetabel on January 06, 2011, 11:56:20 PM
a few pictures of little elzabeth. by the way, who is she with?

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/elizabethofhesse.jpg)




The same picture is here, just at the beginnning of the thread. Exactly the same.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=124.45 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=124.45)

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Gabriella on January 14, 2011, 04:11:48 AM
a few pictures of little elzabeth. by the way, who is she with?

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/elizabethofhesse.jpg)


Little Elizabeth is seen here with her cousins Louise, George and Louis, the children of her aunt Victoria. I am not quite sure, but I think the picture was taken in 1903 when they stayed in Darmstadt for the marriage of their elder sister Alice with Andrew of Greece.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Gabriella on January 14, 2011, 07:17:49 AM
The picture was made in the park of Wolfsgarten at Elizabeth's small house. There it is kept today.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Geniebeanie on March 31, 2011, 02:35:34 PM
Please do not think my question is qoulish but it was the practice of the time .  Are there any pictures of her in her coffin?    I am writng a essay on her and was wondering.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on March 31, 2011, 03:54:40 PM
I've seen photos of her funeral but not of her in a coffin. Maybe because of the transporting the body from Poland to Darmstadt? Or it might just have been too painful, though not uncommon at the time even for children (ie Luitpold of Bavaria).
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on May 22, 2011, 06:28:34 AM
I'm not sure if any one has seen these yet, so forgive me if you have!  There are a few pictures of Elizabeth riding a horse on this page:  http://statearchive.ru/437?page=5  She is riding with Olga and Tatiana.

Oh!  There are more in the following pages, too!  Looks like the family took a trip to Darmstadt?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 22, 2011, 08:44:09 AM
Look  this page

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=124.375

Thanks anyway!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on May 24, 2011, 02:48:35 AM
So it was posted.  Haha, darn.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Dru on July 24, 2011, 07:29:49 PM
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6132/5972433636_e33f79842d_b.jpg)

Elisabeth with Victoria Melita.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bonbon823 on July 25, 2011, 10:21:09 AM
Wow, look at those eyes!  What a beautiful child she was.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 25, 2011, 06:14:23 PM
She was a pretty child and looked a bit like more Alfred than Alice.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Laura_ on July 26, 2011, 08:46:15 AM
imo she looked just like her mother.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 26, 2011, 11:34:57 AM
Yes. Ducky do look like her father Alfie though...Elizabeth's expression were less sad than Ducky's, her look was more bewildered.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Adagietto on July 26, 2011, 02:25:47 PM
I've just put scans of my postcards of the princess online at my webshots site:

http://community.webshots.com/album/580615282wkXikm?start=0

Nothing particularly unusual because I'm too mean to pay the big prices that these often fetch nowadays!

(http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/48229/2249307730100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: blessOTMA on July 26, 2011, 03:21:59 PM
The last two pictures are stunning and new to me. Thank you!  I think Ella looked  like Ducky indeed...but in the photo Dru posted , I can see her father  as well....and more than ever before....in her eyes
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 26, 2011, 06:38:01 PM
I think little Elizabeth was quite unique, it was a blessing that Ernie did not have a daughter again...her death did broke his heart.
Title: Post mortem photo of little Ella?
Post by: Nadeshda74 on August 01, 2011, 11:50:22 AM
So people liked to make post mortem photos and you can find them often of Royalty (in coffins)- is there one of little Ella in her coffin? Or did they never take one of her.
I ve seen one of Frittie before and none of Alice and little May.  Maybe those photos were too painful (Alice and May)? But why did they take one of Frittie then?
But I must admit that for my mind people had a very good attitude against death- how to say it- well they took their time to say farewell by placing them in their homes- today it s out of the house and gone- you know what I mean? (excuse my maybe strange view, but I m a nurse and sometimes people do not even stay beside their dying fathers, friends etc.- very bad).
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Nadeshda74 on August 01, 2011, 11:52:25 AM
When you look at her eyes- she must have made a wonderful Princess later in her life if she only had the chance to grow up. But she looks really much like Victoria.
Like my Grannie would say: Such a dear little child!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 02, 2011, 03:03:48 PM
Yes. Elizabeth would have been quite a character if she did grow up (based upon her childhood). Sadly it did not happen....
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: larri* on September 24, 2011, 04:47:54 PM
Elisabeth ca1901:

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/108/161901ca.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/161901ca.jpg/)

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 25, 2011, 10:13:29 PM
Charming picture of her at the sofa. I heard she also captured the heart of Queen Victoria too.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: blessOTMA on September 26, 2011, 12:06:07 AM
(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/th_DSC04512.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/DSC04512.jpg)(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/th_DSC04513.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/Botkin/DSC04513.jpg)

This is a postcard I own. It says 1902.
Elizabeth is famous for looking like her mother. But to me in this photo, she looks like Ernie too.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 28, 2011, 09:10:55 AM
Yes. She had her mother's eyes and her father's features.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Duchess of Diego on September 28, 2011, 02:33:24 PM
There's so much wisdom and maturity in her young eyes...tall for her age too it seems :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 28, 2011, 04:15:07 PM
Yes. She was a special child. Ernie did not get over that loss...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: LenelorMiksi on October 10, 2011, 09:50:32 PM
I don't think Alice, May or Elizabeth would have had post mortem pictures taken because of the risk of infection.  They all died of highly contagious diseases.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 11, 2011, 06:38:02 AM
and they wouldnt take a macabre image like this one of a boy who also died of an infectious disease (SPOILER!! : post mortem image)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/32/393106755_f1ef75f160.jpg
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2011, 04:11:31 PM
I agree. Not very pleasant. No tradition for death pictures anyway. Alice did not have a death photo...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on December 17, 2011, 04:31:49 AM
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/elisabeth%20von%20hessen/fluffy.jpg)

I hope this picture wasn't posted yet.
Must be around 1896 I think.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 17, 2011, 07:28:31 AM
A very cute picture. I wonder if her letters to her parents survive.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Captain Koala on January 21, 2012, 07:57:29 PM
(http://i1250.photobucket.com/albums/hh534/Warrint3/littleella2.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 22, 2012, 01:16:59 PM
Was the little boy there Dickie ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Captain Koala on January 22, 2012, 01:35:46 PM
Yeah that's Dickie sitting on the bench.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 22, 2012, 10:28:52 PM
Cool ! He looked a bit like Philip being so blond looking...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: GrandDuchessIsabelle on March 01, 2012, 02:46:30 PM
Ella:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5062/5693230392_a8ff645c8b_o.jpg)
(It's not my picture, I just found it)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 01, 2012, 02:48:27 PM
She was a very special little girl, but her expression like shown here is usually sad. :-(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on March 11, 2012, 12:38:22 PM
In remembrance of Elisabeth Princess of Hesse and the Rhine

* 11. March 1895
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: blessOTMA on March 12, 2012, 12:56:22 AM
Indeed
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: LauraO on March 12, 2012, 12:29:17 PM
Beautiful picture above, haven't seen it before, and yes, in rememberance...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on April 11, 2012, 08:28:31 AM
My favourite picture of Elisabeth (it wasn't posted before :o) :
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/elisabeth%20von%20hessen/elisabethbestpicture.jpg)

Does anyone have more informations about Elisabeth like letters, objects that belonged to her or even footage? It would be awsome to see  :)

I'm trying to find more pictures of her too. If I find another one, I will post it :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 11, 2012, 09:15:25 AM
I think they are still in Wolfgarten. Quite a few of her things were featured in a photo book on Hesse...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: bonbon823 on April 11, 2012, 07:46:37 PM
Just think what a beauty she would have been as an adult.  She would have been a decided "catch"!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on April 12, 2012, 08:01:46 AM
Thank you for your answer. I will try to find that photo book
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on April 12, 2012, 01:57:52 PM
There are indeed some letters she wrote to her father, her postcard album, some exercise books, jewelry (she obviously got many jewels from her mother upon the divorce in 1901) and of course her famous Art Noveau "play house" with pottery, furniture, toys and her hessian "Schwalm" costume.

You see - there is quite a lot  :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: blessOTMA on April 12, 2012, 10:03:23 PM
That picture is wonderful, thank you ...is she being photographed at her  play house? The door seems child size
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on April 13, 2012, 08:36:12 AM
Thank you Thomas_Hesse for your answer. I've seen some pictures of her toys but I've never seen her letters :( I will search on the internet to find them (atleast try)
You are welcome blessOTMA. I'm pretty sure it was raken at her play house. I have once seen the whole picture (or a picture taken the same day) and you can see the whole house and the trees around :)

I have found another picture :
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/elisabeth%20von%20hessen/pony.jpg)

It was posted before but it was really small. The is a drawing of this picture too. I'm sorry about the quality of the picture. I hope someone has it in clearer and bigger :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 13, 2012, 02:21:32 PM
Thanks for sharing. The book is called Hesse: A Princely German Collection (2005). You can find it on Amazon. It includes a tiara she wore.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on April 14, 2012, 11:36:27 AM
Thank you :) I will try to get that book
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 15, 2012, 07:21:44 PM
Welcome !

I wonder if Ducky kept the letters Elisabeth wrote her ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: The Test Card Girl on May 04, 2012, 06:53:37 AM
It's perfectly possible that Ducky kept the letters but they were lost or deliberately destroyed upon her death.
It was also common in the U.S. - the vast majority of Presidential papers pre-Herbert Hoover were dispersed or destroyed following their President's death.


I wonder if Ducky kept the letters Elisabeth wrote her ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 04, 2012, 09:59:07 AM
Indeed. Maybe they were given to Ernie as keepsake ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Rodney_G. on July 05, 2012, 06:37:28 PM
A basic , maybe too simple a question.  Why would the daughter of a Grand Duke of Hesse/Darmstadt not be a grandduchess? Why Princess Elizabeth instead of Grand Duchess Elizabeth?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 05, 2012, 06:56:20 PM
The Grand Duke was the Reigning ruler of the Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt, until it was abolished after WWI.
Only his wife or widowed mother held the rank of Grand Duchess. Wife - Grand Duchess. Mother - Dowager Grand Duchess.

The Grand Duke's oldest son and Heir (only males can inherit directly, very similar to the Pauline Laws in Russia)'s wife was titled “Hereditary Grand Duchess" like a Crown Princess will held.

Elisabeth was only a daughter of a Grand Duke, so she was in-titled Princess. Even though she was an only child at her death, she was not her father's heir.

Unless AND A BIG WHAT IF, she lived, only child, and married the next inline heir to the Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt were the Princes of Hesse-Cassel, a junior branch of the Hesse Family..anyways if Elisabeth married the eldest boy and heir to both branches, THEN she would have been a Grand Duchess.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2012, 11:03:47 AM
I do wonder if Elisabeth did grow up, which cousin she would have married ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 06, 2012, 01:54:49 PM
 Sadly Eric. to what if past history is pointless. 
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2012, 03:04:18 PM
Not really. I think there is an expectation that she would marry George of Battenberg. The two even played bride and groom in one of their games (photos to prove).
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 06, 2012, 06:00:55 PM
post the photo to prove it. then i'll believe it *wink*
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2012, 07:45:08 PM
Cannot. The picture is from the Mountbatten collection at Southhampton University in England. The same one they tried to sell off. I went there and did research. I think I would put that in my next book. My friend Charlotte Zeepvat would surely like it. Until then.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on July 07, 2012, 09:51:45 AM
Since this bride and groom game was played when George was no more than 11 and Elizabeth no more than 7, it hardly proves anything.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2012, 12:09:34 PM
What I am saying is that ideas were formed in the parents mind that they might be paired off. It doesn't need to prove anything, this is not a court of law. And we are not judges.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 07, 2012, 08:20:42 PM
Doesn't matter really, since its the past and the little girl died young. What ifs in History only spread rumors and myths.

and also Eric, do you have PROOF that the parents wanted their children to marry? just because they're children were dressed as bride and groom?

A photo can tall 100s stories, but only one is a fact, they were playing dress up and that's it. Never let your imagination get a hold, that wants makes false info.
they why say useless "what ifs" and such when someone asks for the fact?... 

Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2012, 09:27:26 PM
I think it is more we interpret is more we can get as fact. History is actually an interpretation of what happened. We people actually saw, written down may not actually be fact.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Rodney_G. on July 14, 2012, 10:58:52 AM
The Grand Duke was the Reigning ruler of the Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt, until it was abolished after WWI.
Only his wife or widowed mother held the rank of Grand Duchess. Wife - Grand Duchess. Mother - Dowager Grand Duchess.

The Grand Duke's oldest son and Heir (only males can inherit directly, very similar to the Pauline Laws in Russia)'s wife was titled “Hereditary Grand Duchess" like a Crown Princess will held.

Elisabeth was only a daughter of a Grand Duke, so she was in-titled Princess. Even though she was an only child at her death, she was not her father's heir.

Unless AND A BIG WHAT IF, she lived, only child, and married the next inline heir to the Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt were the Princes of Hesse-Cassel, a junior branch of the Hesse Family..anyways if Elisabeth married the eldest boy and heir to both branches, THEN she would have been a Grand Duchess.

A bit late, Mandie, but thanks for the explanation.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 14, 2012, 12:15:46 PM
I wonder if Serge mentioned her in his diaries. They are published in Russian.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rwa073 on August 31, 2012, 12:09:14 PM
Hello Thomas, I'm trying to investigate life and work of Lucien Victor Guirand De Scevola (1871-1950), which is not easy, because information is very scarce. Nevertheless, I've managed to collect details. Every bit helps! Your entry of 29th July 2008 makes me curious. Would you be willing to share the information you have on the German/Russian connections of Guirand? I've roamed the internet, but couldn't find any information on this subject, nore any photographs of paintings he made of/for the families you've mentioned. Many thanks in advance! Kind regards, Rik Wassenaar, The Netherlands 
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on September 01, 2012, 12:05:44 PM
Hey Rick,
my research was no success either... the only thing I know is that he did several portraits of Princess Elisabeth and her parents in 1901. I have seen some of the originals and a photograph of a portrait of Elisabeth with her mother.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 02, 2012, 09:28:49 AM
Where are these located ? In Germany or Russia ?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on November 16, 2012, 10:13:56 AM
Elisabeth Prinzessin von Hessen und bei Rhein

+ 16. 11. 1903 /2012
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2012, 11:00:17 AM
I visited her grave in Darmstadt. Very serene.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on June 06, 2013, 02:55:51 PM
It sadens me that there aren't many posted photos of Elisabeth out there :( so if you have any letters or photos please post! I'm always looking foward to see new things.
Here are some photos that weren't posted here before (but not new)

Victoria Melita with baby Elisabeth circa 1896
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/th_VictoriaMelitaBabyElisabethcirca1896_zpsb6b5f6ac.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/VictoriaMelitaBabyElisabethcirca1896_zpsb6b5f6ac.jpg.html)

Little Ella in a sailor uniform (in a better quality)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/th_Ellainsailorsuit_zps68ef7dec.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/Ellainsailorsuit_zps68ef7dec.jpg.html)

My favourite photo of Victoria Melita and Elisabeth together
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/th_EllaandVictoria_zpsd6a520b8.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/EllaandVictoria_zpsd6a520b8.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 06, 2013, 03:45:09 PM
Ducky was too young to be a mother and her individualistic instinct clashed with her desire to become a good mother to Ella. She long for freedom from a trapped marriage and Ella was the product of that marriage. :-(
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 07, 2013, 03:36:56 AM
'Ducky was too young to be a mother'

Oh Eric, this is a bit rich coming from you. You are constantly extolling the virtues of marriage at 17-18, and lamenting that Nicholas and Alexandra had not got busy and found Olga a husband by the outbreak of war!

Victoria Melita was 17 when she married (definitely too young, in my view). But marriage before the days of effective contraception led inevitably to children unless one or both was infertile. So if she was too young to be a mother she was too young to marry.

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 08, 2013, 02:03:42 AM
She was definitely too young to be a Duchess of Hesse that I know for sure.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 08, 2013, 11:26:33 AM
Ann,

It does depend on the person if they are ready for marriage. For example Alicky's daughters. Olga was much more of an intellectual and not easy to compromise ( very like her mother in this) while Marie (the third daughter) can talk about nothing about having a family and raising babies. It was her that Crown Prince Carol of Romania turned to propose after both Olga & Tatiana did not show any interest in him. I think Marie should be married early, and later situation proved correct. During the last days, Marie did flirted (and even might had a brief relationship) with one of the guards. So early marriage is good for some and not for others. Ducky was another of those complicated ones (like Alicky) who demanded more out of a marriage than companionship, children and being provided for (important thing in grandmama's book). Also Ducky did not have the guidance of a mother-in-law (unlike Alicky) to guide her to become a landsmutter (a crime leveled against her). Even the saintly Princess Alice did not become that shortly after exchanging marriage vows. She had years in training being just Princess Louis of Hesse & By Rhine and had an understanding mother-in-law in Princess Karl (Elizabeth of Prussia) of Hesse to help her. Ducky had nobody. So that is why I gave her some leverage in my opinion of her.

Eric
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 09, 2013, 06:03:41 AM
In my view 17 is too young for anyone to marry. What you are saying about Marie N is that she was man mad and needed to be married off early in order to avoid scandalous relationships. I,m not sure I agree with that characterisation anyway, but it hardly makes a secure foundation for marriage.
Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 09, 2013, 10:20:43 AM
17 is too young now (though I"ve known some young couples settle down happily) but it was quite the norm back then. Many women settled easily into young marriage and parenthood with no more than the usual bumps that could happen at any age. With VM, maybe a few years would've helped, but her basic temperament didn't suit herself to early marriage/motherhood--not to mention the basic incompatability of the pair. Marie Coburg believed that princesses should be married off as young as possible--one size fits all--regardless of whether her own daughters were equipped for it or not.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 09, 2013, 01:48:08 PM
I'm not sure that 17 was the norm for marriage in the 1890s, which is the time we are talking about. Not particularly unusual, but still the age for royal and aristocratic marriages was gradually creeping up. Even if marriages at 17 was considered normal, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was going to be a success.
Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 09, 2013, 05:50:16 PM
I think 17 is too early for marriage, but at the time it is fairly normal in aristocratic and noble families. I do not mean that Marie Nicholievna was man crazy, but she wasn't intellectually inclined or ambitious in nature like her mother Alicky (who married rather late). But many in the family were flirtatious and longing to experiment with the opposite sex. Marie Kyrillovna & Ileana of Romania both belong to the later category and both had affairs even though they got married. Victoria Melita wasn't ready for that and without a guiding hand (Alicky at least have Dagmar), she created her own independent world. She did love Elisabeth, but her experience with a stern mother kept her from being more demonstrative, while Ernie whose experience with Alice was very different. Remember he gave her "the kiss of death". Marie Coburg would not have done that...she was much more practical than emotional.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 09, 2013, 05:59:12 PM
I'm not sure that 17 was the norm for marriage in the 1890s, which is the time we are talking about. Not particularly unusual, but still the age for royal and aristocratic marriages was gradually creeping up. Even if marriages at 17 was considered normal, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was going to be a success.
Ann

I meant more for royal marriages but indicated further on that Marie Coburg believed in marrying princesses as early as possible. Yes, by this time, 17 was regarded as on the youngish side but not as unusual as today. I don't think many royals would've blinked an eye at the age of the bride. As I said, a lot depended on the inherent personalities of the couple involved and both VM and EL were rather immature for their ages.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 09, 2013, 06:19:27 PM
Well...Some girls mature earlier than others. In the case of VM it was more because of QV, who lost Missy to Romania than she insist that a second Edinburgh/Coburg daughter not to be lost. Marie Coburg was happy at the match as Ernie was more of a happy-go-lucky guy and he is rich and can offer her a nice position. She did not realize that VM needed more in a marriage. Many marriage went through ups and downs but remained solidly married. Like Missy & Nando, Sophie Charlotte & Ferdinand of Alencon, Sisi & Franz Josef and Sandra & Ernst of Hohenlohe-Langenberg...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on June 10, 2013, 03:50:43 AM
Interestingly, according to 'Young Prince Philip', when his parents married in 1903, aged 21 and 18, there was a good deal of concern among their relations because of their ages. Now it may be that they were more concerned about Andrew's age than Alice's, but even so.

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on June 10, 2013, 11:09:28 AM
VMH was more pragmatic than most--I'm not surprised that she had concern. Two of her granddaughters (Philip's sisters) were all married off young. Cecile was 20 while Sophie had only turned 16 a few months prior. VMH herself married just a couple weeks past 19, Ella was 19.  Then Ernie was 26 and just as immature as VM. Alix was 22 and would've married years earlier if she had come around on the religion issue.  I think it just depends on the people involved and their circumstances.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 10, 2013, 12:24:34 PM
One must remember that in those days a woman's future is only assured if she is married. Under those circumstances, we can understand why those mamas do not want the prizes of matrimony slip through their fingers. As Sisi said about her early marriage "One does not sent the Emperor of Austria packing." Her daughter-in-law Stephanie also married early, and was granted a delay due to the fact that her menstrual cycle had not began yet. Missy, VM & Sandra all married early and well in status & position.  It was due to VM's own character that she wanted a divorce. ven Mary Loo would be happy to remain "married" in Anhalt if not for the scandal. It was worth noting that she considered herself married for the rest of her life. So I guess VM was too immature to become a fully developed mother for little Ella, but there is no doubt that she loved her.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on December 05, 2013, 03:07:18 PM
Photos of little Elisabeth from her last photoshoot in November 1903.
She is wearing a Romanian traditional costume given by her aunt Maria of Romania.
Photos by Alfred Brand, Sinaia-Ploesci
Photos found at the hessian archive website
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/th_2086_1_zps36dc24a4.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/2086_1_zps36dc24a4.jpg.html)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/th_2086_2_zpsff60e554.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/2086_2_zpsff60e554.jpg.html)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/th_2086_3alfredbrandsinaia-ploesci_zpsca0135c8.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/2086_3alfredbrandsinaia-ploesci_zpsca0135c8.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: edubs31 on December 05, 2013, 05:22:00 PM
Thanks for sharing these Hikari. Elisabeth was a beautiful spirit. A mentor in some ways to OTMA one could say.

She died on November 16, 1903 so is it possible these photos were taken at the very beginning of her visit, with papa Ernst, to the imperial lodge in Skierniewice, Poland?

I don't know exactly when the first arrived at the lodge nor do I know the exact date she became ill. But I believe she was laid up in bed for a few days before passing. These photos would have needed to be taken in a pretty tight window if so, and if they were taken in Poland is it possible that we might find some uncovered photos of OTMA from the same photo shoot?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 06, 2013, 01:10:39 AM
I wonder if there were letters between the girls...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on December 06, 2013, 06:56:47 AM
I'm not sure about the date...when I found it on the Hesse archive it said that the photos were taken in November 1903.
But it's possible that they made a mistake and wrote November instead of October or September :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: edubs31 on December 06, 2013, 07:39:14 AM
I'm not sure about the date...when I found it on the Hesse archive it said that the photos were taken in November 1903.
But it's possible that they made a mistake and wrote November instead of October or September :)


Yes, always a possibility of that. Would just be really nice to know for sure is all. Something tells me they were probably taken before her and her father's trip to the lodge in Poland. Otherwise it seems likely that we'd have some pictures of OTMA during this photo shoot.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on December 06, 2013, 07:50:06 AM
I think so too. But I'm pretty sure there are candid photos of Elisabeth and OTMA in November 1903 when they were in Poland :( if only we could check the 1903 album in the russian archive to see if they exist!
Here's another beautiful photo of Elisabeth by Alfred Brand in 1903:
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/For%20the%20AP%20forum/th_1708alfredbrand_zpsffa8ed1e.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/For%20the%20AP%20forum/1708alfredbrand_zpsffa8ed1e.jpg.html)
From the Hessian Archive
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on December 06, 2013, 10:39:23 AM
Beautiful new pictures! Especially loved the photo shoot where she is in Romanian costume :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 06, 2013, 06:43:13 PM
I'm not sure about the date...when I found it on the Hesse archive it said that the photos were taken in November 1903.
But it's possible that they made a mistake and wrote November instead of October or September :)


Yes, always a possibility of that. Would just be really nice to know for sure is all. Something tells me they were probably taken before her and her father's trip to the lodge in Poland. Otherwise it seems likely that we'd have some pictures of OTMA during this photo shoot.

Didn't the family travel straight on from Andrew & Alice's wedding in Darmstadt to the hunting lodge? The wedding was in October and OTMA were present then as well.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: edubs31 on December 06, 2013, 10:59:15 PM
Possibly. But I thought the wedding was in early-October and Ella passed away in mid-November. So they were all together for a month and a half?

Guess I just assumed Ella & Ernst met the IF there in Poland. Eager's memoirs has some detailed info on the journey. It might be worth giving that a look.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Svetabel on December 07, 2013, 01:06:51 AM
Possibly. But I thought the wedding was in early-October and Ella passed away in mid-November. So they were all together for a month and a half?

Guess I just assumed Ella & Ernst met the IF there in Poland. Eager's memoirs has some detailed info on the journey. It might be worth giving that a look.

The wedding of Andrea and Alice was in October 6th. Ernst Ludwig and his daughter went to Poland with the Tzar Family November 6th. So they were alltogether more than a month as little Ella died November 16.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: edubs31 on December 07, 2013, 08:25:46 AM
I didn't really the IF attended the wedding also. Thanks for clearing that up.

So it actually was closer to a month and a half. I assume the wedding guests would have arrived at least a day of two before the big day, maybe more, yes? Also I wonder had the tragedy with Ella not occurred how long were the two families scheduled to be together in Poland?

None of this really matters. I'm just curious as to the exact date of the photo, if it might have been poor Ella's last, and whether there were any similar pictures taken of OTMA?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Svetabel on December 07, 2013, 10:06:52 AM

So it actually was closer to a month and a half. I assume the wedding guests would have arrived at least a day of two before the big day, maybe more, yes? Also I wonder had the tragedy with Ella not occurred how long were the two families scheduled to be together in Poland?



The IF arrived at Darmstadt September 23, so it was 13 days before the wedding. Other guests, like the Greek relatives, arrived only 2 days before the wedding.

As for the IF departing from Poland that year, 1903, they boarded the train going home December 4. Usually as every year routine the IF spent in Poland September-October, sometimes a part of November. In case with 1903 I think they stayed longer couse Ella's death and inevitable quarantine.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Svetabel on December 07, 2013, 10:11:43 AM
Thanks for sharing these Hikari. Elisabeth was a beautiful spirit. A mentor in some ways to OTMA one could say.

She died on November 16, 1903 so is it possible these photos were taken at the very beginning of her visit, with papa Ernst, to the imperial lodge in Skierniewice, Poland?



I think the photosession is not November 1903, some mistakes in dating photos are usual things in any Archives.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: edubs31 on December 07, 2013, 10:40:35 AM
Thanks for sharing these Hikari. Elisabeth was a beautiful spirit. A mentor in some ways to OTMA one could say.

She died on November 16, 1903 so is it possible these photos were taken at the very beginning of her visit, with papa Ernst, to the imperial lodge in Skierniewice, Poland?



I think the photosession is not November 1903, some mistakes in dating photos are usual things in any Archives.

Certainly. Do we have an idea of what and when the last photos of Ella were taken? I'm guessing they're on here somewhere.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on December 10, 2013, 01:12:09 PM
Those were the last official portraits taken of Elisabeth!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2013, 05:43:19 PM
Thanks Thomas for your confirmation.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: edubs31 on December 10, 2013, 07:36:27 PM
Yes, thank you Thomas.

Sweet as those photos are I can't help but to feel a little sad looking at them. Knowing of course she'd be gone in days/weeks.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2013, 08:44:07 PM
I wonder if her letters and diaries were ever published since I think Ernie kept her things in tact.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on December 12, 2013, 03:43:48 AM
Elizabeth died at eight, so unless she was a prodigy there won't have been much in the way of letters and diaries!

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2013, 06:51:56 PM
Yes. But course she could have written to her gran-gran (QV) in her childish hand and also her mother Ducky.

Eric
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on December 13, 2013, 03:55:46 AM
True, but that's still nothing to get excited about.

Looking back on the kind of things I wrote when aged eight (nothing has survived), it was exceedingly dull stuff.

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
Not really...Elisabeth was a very smart kid, she once told her father "When you told me that you love me, you really mean it, but she (her mother Ducky) only tell me that she loves me". I think it would be interesting to know how she communicated with her divorced parents (she was one of the first child of divorced royal parents).
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on December 14, 2013, 02:11:48 AM
I'm not suggesting that Elizabeth was unintelligent - that remark of hers was highly perceptive (unless she was just trying to play off one parent against the other).

But I think back to when I was seven or eight, and required to write 'news' every Monday morning at school,and could never think of anything interesting to say about going to the supermarket on Saturday morning  with my parents or whatever it happened to be. Nowadays, with the benefit of 50 years of life experience and a developed sense of humour, I could produce a nice jokey piece comparing a visit to the supermarket with Prince Harry's expedition to the South Pole.

When I was 10 I did draft a letter for my younger brother to send to the manufacturers of Action Man asking for replacement parts after  the dog chewed them up, which was quite unintentionally hilarious. I was furious because I thought 'because our dog chewed the above articles' was very businesslike. But eight is not ten, and I really was intellectually pretty precocious.

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: edubs31 on December 14, 2013, 11:12:47 AM
I agree with Ann. If I'm not mistaken OTMA didn't really begin writing in their diaries until around the age of ten. And those early entries weren't exactly filled with the most interesting and elaborate depictions of their daily lives and their impressions of the world. And why would anyone expect the private diaries of pre-adolescent children to be?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: OctoberLily on December 14, 2013, 04:20:08 PM
I agree with Ann and edubs31.  The most we'd likely get from an 8 year old's diary would be a wish list for Santa and what the child had for dessert!  ;D
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on December 15, 2013, 04:17:13 AM
Indeed. Daisy Ashford wrote The Young Visiterswhen she was nine, but she was most unusual. In any case she didn't intend it to be funny, and the reason it is hilarious to an adult is that it is the writing of a very intelligent girl who has got slightly the wrong end of the stick about the habits of Edwardian society.

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 16, 2013, 05:23:47 PM
What I think Elizabeth wrote would be interesting thing to see how they (Ernie & Ducky) as parents. Ducky's son and daughters turned out unruly until they finally settled down to marry, while Ernie's sons were generally thought of as well behaved.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: OctoberLily on December 16, 2013, 11:02:57 PM
I highly doubt the writings of an 8 year old child would be a true representation of EL and VM's capabilities as parents. 
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 18, 2013, 06:46:56 PM
I think believe so since both parents were affected by her death and in Ducky's case maybe guilt too.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on December 19, 2013, 03:27:47 AM
While Elizabeth's parents may well have kept anything she wrote,, but I very much doubt whether they would have had them published - which was the originally query.

In any event, the preserved scribbling a of an eight- year-old are most unlikely to tell us much.

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 19, 2013, 10:16:36 AM
I think a previous poster--perhaps Ilana or Thomas--mentioned that Elizabeth's lesson books, photo albums, etc...were preserved by her father and are still in existence. He didn't want anyone to have any of her jewelry though so it was melted down to make a chalice.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 23, 2013, 09:18:22 PM
I am sure that Ernie persevered the correspondence between him and his daughter. Ducky might have destroyed hers.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: OctoberLily on December 23, 2013, 11:07:56 PM
Ducky might have destroyed hers.

Is this an opinion or do you have a factual reference for this statement?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: grandduchessella on December 23, 2013, 11:23:26 PM
I can't speak for Eric but it is documented in several biographies that Ducky broke all her ties to Darmstadt after her daughter died. She laid her Hessian Order, a medallion, on her daughter's coffin as a final gesture "that she had made a final break with her old home." on her daughter's casket. No letters turned up for use in any of the bios on Ernie or Victoria Melita. And it was pretty common practice (unfortunately for historians and biographers) for royals to burn letters--Irene, Elizabeth Alix all burned correspondence as did their aunt Alexandra of Great Britain--who, along with Edward VII, burned tons of letters to/from.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on December 24, 2013, 02:02:11 AM
I have never heard about her burning any letters from Princess Elisabeth - destroying papers was due to the revolution or due to contents which the writers thought too private/dangerous whatever (Princess Alice Grand Duchess of Hesse for instance had her diaries burned as well as the letters from her sister Victoria Prussia. All the others survive...) So there is certainly some sort of sorting out what can I keep and what not.
I do not see any reason to burn the scribblings from an eight year old - and we do not even know whether there were many letters... how many have you written at that age?!
There are only a couple of short notes to her father...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 25, 2013, 06:46:04 PM
That is exactly what I meant Grandduchessella. Ducky's last link with Hesse was her daughter, it would be consistent in her character to laid that to rest too, whereas Ernie held on to that memory more closely.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Hikari on January 08, 2014, 08:29:28 AM
I found other nice photos of Elisabeth in the Hesse archive :)
date : 1901
photograph : Levitzky St Peter

(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/For%20the%20AP%20forum/th_1698_2_zpsbef5c94a.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/For%20the%20AP%20forum/1698_2_zpsbef5c94a.jpg.html) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/For%20the%20AP%20forum/th_1698_1_zpsc9bada4f.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/For%20the%20AP%20forum/1698_1_zpsc9bada4f.jpg.html)

photo from the same session, this time with her Russian cousins Olga and Tatiana :
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg47/natsafan/For%20the%20AP%20forum/th_1901OTELevitzkystpeter3_zpsa028097c.jpg) (http://s245.photobucket.com/user/natsafan/media/For%20the%20AP%20forum/1901OTELevitzkystpeter3_zpsa028097c.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2014, 11:16:53 AM
Elisabeth did have fuzzy hair...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: edubs31 on January 08, 2014, 11:36:55 AM
Elisabeth did have fuzzy hair...

Yeah I noticed that tool. Naturally very curly I guess and difficult to keep orderly. Does nothing to blemish her beauty though and also how adorable these photos are...particularly the shot of her holding little Tatiana. Too sweet!
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 09, 2014, 10:28:29 AM
I think that might be from Ducky's side of the family since both Don & his brother did not have fuzzy hair...
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on May 06, 2014, 10:30:14 AM
(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/f02849-1399390101.jpg) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=f02849-1399390101.jpg)

Just found this picture and since I do not remember it was posted before, I thought you may like to see it shared :)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 06, 2014, 03:42:18 PM
The girl on Victoria´s lap is her daughter - but not Elisabeth. That is Princess Maria Kyrilovna, the eldest of three children Ducky had with her second husband. That may be why you have not seen the picture in connection with Ella :-)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Kalafrana on May 07, 2014, 03:04:56 AM
Neither of them looks very happy, particularly not the mother.

Ann
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on May 18, 2014, 06:51:04 AM
The girl on Victoria´s lap is her daughter - but not Elisabeth. That is Princess Maria Kyrilovna, the eldest of three children Ducky had with her second husband. That may be why you have not seen the picture in connection with Ella :-)

Oh! Sorry for my fault!
I always thought Elisabeth looked like her father but now I see she must have had much of her mother's feautures since this girl looks so much like Elisabeth to me. Yes, the all look very very sad. It must have been always with the mother (since her sister too said Victoria had 'always tragedy' around her) and not -only?- have been the unhappy marriage.

But I have another pic which I did not see here and this time I am right I hope :)

Isn't it sweet that she put her horse under the table? I used to play liket hat too, there was the stable :D

(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/fd2ee8-1400413770.jpg) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=fd2ee8-1400413770.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ally Kumari on May 18, 2014, 06:56:12 AM
Yes, this is Elisabeth.  I always found her to be a great likeness of her mother - but with more regular features inherited from the Hesse family.

Here is the picture in better quality:

(http://nd06.jxs.cz/916/991/33cc0b5a16_97810580_o2.jpg)
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: rachel5a on May 21, 2014, 05:59:32 AM
Is that a wedding picture of her parents among the photographs?
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 21, 2014, 10:22:15 PM
No. Not seen in photograph. However there is the coronation photo of King Edward VII & Queen Alexandra.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Nictionary on April 22, 2015, 05:38:16 PM
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AitGIGPUGkQ/TA57OSiVy8I/AAAAAAAAEVQ/dBJAyWlgJys/s1600/swreallife.jpg)
This bronze frieze is part of the memorial to Elizabeth , in the Herrengarten in Darmstadt. It depicts the dead princess as Snow White in the glass coffin, surrounded by the grieving dwarfs. The inscription below reads "for our little princess, from the children of Darmstadt" ("unserem Prinzesschen die Kinder Darmstadts"). Sadly, one of the dwarfs was damaged when Darmstadt was bombed during World War Two.
Title: Re: Elizabeth (daughter of Ernie)
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 24, 2018, 04:14:53 AM
Source https://vk.com/whitegrandduchess

(https://pp.userapi.com/c841133/v841133967/8408d/4tlPTPyzjZ0.jpg)