Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Maria Nicholaievna => Topic started by: Olga Maria on January 27, 2009, 04:26:56 AM

Title: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Olga Maria on January 27, 2009, 04:26:56 AM
I've read that Maria bellows on anyone when she has a visit from Madame Becker. Could someone post the diary entries of someone else that proves this?
Please....I need a help. Are there also diary entries of the OTMA telling about these days they have their you know....?
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on January 27, 2009, 07:11:40 AM
Here (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=2498.0) is a thread about that.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Olga Maria on January 27, 2009, 08:23:53 PM
Thank you, Lisa for giving the first thread about this. 8-)
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Olga Maria on April 04, 2009, 12:26:23 PM
Since the other thread is already full of nonsense arguments, I'll post this right here:

Alix's letter to Nicky dated October 24

"Tatiana has Madame Becker so only gets up for luncheon."

Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: rosieposie on April 04, 2009, 08:23:47 PM
I believe during that time they used rags to soak up the blood.   Hence the term "rags" like my boyfriend said to me "Oh I see you got your rags now."  They must have laid in bed for the period (pun not intended) of their monthlys.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Sarushka on April 05, 2009, 06:46:33 AM
Olga's 1913 diary mentions Bekker now and then. If I recall correctly, Olga sometimes spent the first day of Bekker's visit in bed, but not the whole week. I can look for specific entries later if you like.

[Edited to add: I don't recall any specifics regarding Maria's behavior during her period.]
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Olga Maria on April 05, 2009, 12:37:53 PM
I'll be so interested! I recall Alix's letter mentioning Maria bellowing while having it.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Sarushka on April 05, 2009, 04:20:33 PM
I believe during that time they used rags to soak up the blood. 

Disposable sanitary napkins may have been available as early as 1888, and certainly by 1900. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the women of the imperial family availed themselves of this new convenience.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Olga Maria on April 05, 2009, 09:16:09 PM
Thank you for the answer, Sarushka! I thought they used rags of linen.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: tom_romanov on April 07, 2009, 02:32:13 PM
I read in FOTR the investigators found sanitary belts and towels among other possessions. (just tought I'd metion that this topic isn't really my "thing")
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: rosieposie on April 09, 2009, 04:00:16 AM
Thanks for that Tom. :)
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Duchess Georgiana on April 09, 2009, 01:46:57 PM
"Maria bellowing" made me laugh.  Usually we know her as a sweet angel kind of girl, and me picturing her being like that made me laugh. hehe
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: rosieposie on April 12, 2009, 11:28:50 PM
I found a picture of advertisment on saintary belts from 1916.  Would anyone be interested in seeing the ad?
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Sarushka on April 13, 2009, 07:53:39 AM
From Olga's diary....

16 January:
"Bekker arrived, that's why I stayed home."

14 February:
"Was lying down all morning."
(I presume by the timing that this was due to her period.)

10 April:
"Was lying in bed in the morning. Bekker arrived."

8 May:
"No lessons. The teachers did not come. I was lying around, reading and working."
(Again, the timing suggests this was due to her period.)

4 June:
"Got up late because of Bekker."
(Olga also stayed in bed late for the next two mornings, probably due to "Bekker" since it was unusual for the girls to sleep in.)

1 July:
"Bekker came yesterday, that's why I stayed in bed reading until breakfast."
(Olga also stayed in bed "half the morning" the next day before going out to play tennis.)

29 July:
"The four of us were horseback riding on the training ground, practicing entrance. When we came back, we studied, as always, and Bekker visited me."

25 August:
"I have Bekker, that's why during the liturgy I stayed in the chapel with Alexei."
(Olga "Stayed in bed for a long time" the following morning.)

22-25 September:
Olga stays in bed late for three consecutive mornings.

20 October:
"Attended liturgy, even though I wasn't feeling well."
(Bekker?)

18 November:
"Got up late. Bekker"
(Olga "Stayed in bed until 11" on the next morning.)

16 December:
"Bekker. At 9:45 with T. and Nastenka went to the orphanage for the chronically ill."
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Tina Laroche on April 13, 2009, 09:03:11 AM
Thanks, Sarushka! Could you tell me which year are the diary entries from?
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Sarushka on April 13, 2009, 09:20:57 AM
All are 1913.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: EmmyLee on April 13, 2009, 08:11:25 PM
Good work, Sarushka. I wonder what they did for cramps (since just laying in bed wouldn't really help it that much)?
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Grand Duchess Ferah on April 13, 2009, 09:10:10 PM
Thanks, Sarushka! Could you tell me which year are the diary entries from?

Thanks to Raegan Baker's and Marina Petrov's efforts: The Diary of Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna 1913 (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=88).

Good work, Sarushka. I wonder what they did for cramps (since just laying in bed wouldn't really help it that much)?

My memory is vague , but I think I remember reading  that they used something that was quite warm  (not sure what it precisely is?) to ease the cramp pain.  Not much of a help,  I 'm sure someone would know better than me? ..

Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: EmmyLee on April 13, 2009, 09:26:15 PM
From what I've found, wild yam was one method to ease menstrual cramps as well as black cohosh.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Sarushka on April 13, 2009, 11:06:42 PM
Good work, Sarushka. I wonder what they did for cramps (since just laying in bed wouldn't really help it that much)?

I'd bet money on a good old fashioned hot water bottle.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: imperial angel on April 13, 2009, 11:12:13 PM
It says on page 60 of Helen Rappaport's book about the Romanovs that I am just now reading that Alexandra used cocaine and morphine for menstrual pain as well as using them for other things. Just thought I'd mention that as no one has yet.I would be interested in seeing the 1916 ad, Rosieposie.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: jehan on April 14, 2009, 12:23:35 AM
My grandmother was given gin by her mother, as was my mother by her mother (and me by mine).  It works- as does most strong alcohol.  Many women who don't actually drink have used it "for medicinal purposes'.  I don't know if the Imperial Family would have used it or not- but my grandmother was growing up at around the same time.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Grand Duchess Ferah on April 14, 2009, 01:30:02 AM
I'd bet money on a good old fashioned hot water bottle.

Yes,  Sarushka! I think  I remember reading that in a letter,  but I can 't be too sure!
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Tina Laroche on April 14, 2009, 05:34:29 AM
Thanks, Sarushka! Could you tell me which year are the diary entries from?

Thanks to Raegan Baker's and Marina Petrov's efforts: The Diary of Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna 1913 (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=88).

Yes, that would be it. Unfortunately, I haven't found the book neither in Austria nor in Bulgaria yet. : ( I have no idea why I can't find it... I can't order it either (my parents said I'm not allowed to do it anymore... because of a few... uh, accidents with Internet paying I had in the past). So, I'm still waiting for the day I'll get my hands on the book. : (
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Sarushka on April 14, 2009, 08:01:13 AM
Thanks, Sarushka! Could you tell me which year are the diary entries from?

Thanks to Raegan Baker's and Marina Petrov's efforts: The Diary of Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna 1913 (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=88).

Yes, that would be it. Unfortunately, I haven't found the book neither in Austria nor in Bulgaria yet. : ( I have no idea why I can't find it...

To my knowledge, it's only carried by Gilbert's Royal Books in Ontario, Canada. (They published it.) Occasionally Gilbert will sell some of his stock via eBay, but he doesn't seem to distribute it to other bookselling outlets like Amazon. There's a direct link to the GRB site on this page (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=88) about the diary.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Tina Laroche on April 14, 2009, 09:23:47 AM
Thanks, Sarushka! Could you tell me which year are the diary entries from?

Thanks to Raegan Baker's and Marina Petrov's efforts: The Diary of Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaievna 1913 (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=88).

Yes, that would be it. Unfortunately, I haven't found the book neither in Austria nor in Bulgaria yet. : ( I have no idea why I can't find it...

To my knowledge, it's only carried by Gilbert's Royal Books in Ontario, Canada. (They published it.) Occasionally Gilbert will sell some of his stock via eBay, but he doesn't seem to distribute it to other bookselling outlets like Amazon. There's a direct link to the GRB site on this page (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=88) about the diary.

Yes, thank you. But, still, my parents closed my PayPal account... since I did order at least one and a half dozen books (not only about the Romanovs) for the past 7 months... and, there were some conflicts between me and my mother... and... well, I'm not allowed to use PayPal anymore - so, I can't really order it from Internet... : X I hope that the book will appear here one day ... : X : X
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Olga Maria on April 14, 2009, 05:21:15 PM
Thank you so much, with all my heart,Sarah!
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: EmmyLee on April 14, 2009, 07:50:46 PM
A hot water bottle makes sense. I didn't remember that bit about Alexandra using cocaine and morphine. Although she used those things, I think I'd be surprised if she administered alcohol to the girls as a remedy.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: imperial angel on April 15, 2009, 12:25:23 AM
Yes, I'd be surprised too, although using cocaine and morphine as medicines back then was thought to be helpful, rather than harmful. But it's true Alexandra and Nicholas wouldn't even use morphine for Alexei's hemophilia attacks, which were undoubtedly more painful than menstrual cramps, so if they didn't let Alexei use it for fear of dependence, I'd doubt they'd let the girls use it for cramps and using alcohol is doubtful too.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Raegan on April 15, 2009, 03:34:30 PM
But it's true Alexandra and Nicholas wouldn't even use morphine for Alexei's hemophilia attacks, which were undoubtedly more painful than menstrual cramps, so if they didn't let Alexei use it for fear of dependence, I'd doubt they'd let the girls use it for cramps and using alcohol is doubtful too.

Actually, Olga wrote in her diary on January 30, 1917 that Alexei was injected with 1/2 syringe of morphine.

Al. got a shot of a ˝ syringe of morphine, and he is sleeping since 6.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: imperial angel on April 15, 2009, 04:10:41 PM
Thanks. I haven't read the Olga diary book I'll admit. I was getting my info on the morphine from the new Helen Rappaport book on the Romanovs, p. 21, for reference. But Rappaport uses the word '' resisted'', that they resisted using it and doesn't say they never administered it, just that they apparntly tried not to, if they didn't have to. I thought she meant that they never administered it. It's hard to know if the girls used such medicines for cramps or not. Certainly, morphine and the like were thought to be helpful more than harmful back in the day.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: EmmyLee on April 15, 2009, 04:52:47 PM
I really wish I had Raegan's book so I could read through it too. Maybe Interlibrary Loan will bring it in for me.  :)
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Olga Maria on April 16, 2009, 07:25:41 AM
Olga's so good to take note of her periods. She may be doing it to take heed of her monthly schedule.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on September 26, 2009, 03:57:06 PM
I would never imagine that there is information about that topics, because in that time wasn't
very common to talk about it. So interesting topic. About using drugs for menstrual pain, one day I read
that Queen Victoria used cannabis for control the pain, but I'm not sure, of course, in that time
it was considered as medicine, not a drug.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: RHB on October 04, 2009, 04:02:13 AM
"Maria bellowing" made me laugh.  Usually we know her as a sweet angel kind of girl, and me picturing her being like that made me laugh. hehe
Yeah i know every time i read that about her all i can think of is the same thing, sweet kind angelic and not seeming to be one for yelling or such... and then i read (i think the first time was Wikipedia on her page) about her bellowing and all I can think of is "no way i so can not see her doing that uh uh!" but then again i guess we'll never really know now will we?
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: blessOTMA on December 22, 2009, 02:50:10 PM
Maria was a powerful person in many ways ...physically very strong  and I can see the others,
particularly Anastasia ,  saying she " bellows!" when she shouts. It would just come out strongly..the girl can't help it! lol!

There comes a point in a young royal woman's life where Madame Becker's visits are of more importance
than Monsieur Gilliard's lessons. When Olga takes note of Madame B., in a way, she is being about her business.
 
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Holly on December 22, 2009, 03:57:00 PM
"Maria bellowing" made me laugh.  Usually we know her as a sweet angel kind of girl, and me picturing her being like that made me laugh. hehe
Yeah i know every time i read that about her all i can think of is the same thing, sweet kind angelic and not seeming to be one for yelling or such... and then i read (i think the first time was Wikipedia on her page) about her bellowing and all I can think of is "no way i so can not see her doing that uh uh!" but then again i guess we'll never really know now will we?

Well, I think the real reason you (and others) get this impression is because so many people seem to put Olga, Tatiana, Maria, and Anastasia (sometimes Alexei too but not to this extent) into these strange categories. Olga is the bookish, stubborn, rebellious one. Tatiana is dutiful, religious, practical. Maria is romantic, angelic, and sweet. Anastasia is impish, charming, and clever. It's almost like a stereotype. Any time there's an example of them being the opposite you express shock or surprise. It's as if you don't think of them as real human beings with faults and differences in behavior. Of course you can't see Maria yelling in your mind because the only adjectives you've ever put to her name are the ones that are 'sweet' and 'angelic'. No one is always stuck to a short list of qualities. Don't you know that Maria Nicholaievna could be the most stubborn of all the children at times? Did you know that Tatiana once stuck her tongue out at the people? Did you know that Anastasia wasn't always all laughter?
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 22, 2009, 05:10:33 PM
Holly is absolutely right. I´m affraid that especially under the influece of sometimes rather inaccurate and "childish" websites especially the younger members here get the impression of the Grand Duchesses fulfilling only the one known model. Mostly people talk about their distictive character features as if those were the only qualities they had. They were all much more colourful in behaviour and views than most of people can imagine. "Obstinate" Maria, who always "knew what she wanted and why she wanted it" is the very same person as the "angelic" one. And IMO it makes her much more interesting.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Holly on December 24, 2009, 10:04:21 AM
Well said, Ally. I completely agree. I wasn't going to mention it but it does seem to be the more immature that get this idea. They view the family as completely static, super-human characters and not as people who changeable and horribly flawed just like ourselves.  I know when I was 12-13 years old I also had this way of thinking but that left me quickly after I learned more about them. It really does make the person much more interesting.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Jessamy on December 29, 2009, 08:20:39 AM
I can totally imagine Maria "bellowing"  not only from being visited by Bekker, but being taunted by her sisters as well.  My daughters are like that, if they know one is moody sometimes it's fun to tease her as she gets so riled up, especially as she is not like that normally.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Russka Princess on December 29, 2009, 02:43:36 PM
i wonder what they has to stop the blood. I mean today we have Ob´s and always  and such thinks.

What they taked OTMA and Alix ?  a big rag ? i imange it was terrible, if they has it while a Ceromony or a ball.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Sarushka on December 29, 2009, 03:45:00 PM
i wonder what they has to stop the blood. I mean today we have Ob´s and always  and such thinks.

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed in the past. Do some searching around, perhaps on the Their World and Culture boards.
Title: Re: Madame Becker's Visit
Post by: Helen on December 30, 2014, 05:54:30 PM
At the request of a friend, I would like to share the following information received from this friend:

     It does not seem to have anything to do with Toni Becker-Bracht.
     http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=219.msg391655#msg391655
 
     Nor does there necessarily have to have been a concrete “Madame” Bekker.
     http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=12434.msg379733#msg379733
 
     Unfortunately, lacking the texts of the Empress’ earlier letters, we cannot know when precisely she first began to use that term.
 
     And recall that in the Empress’ letters to Tsar Nicholas II during WW I, the first term she used was “engineer-mechanic”.
     (The term “Bekker” occurs only later in the correspondence.) Eventually both terms were used interchangeably.

     [Note that Russian employs two nouns, joined by a hyphen (engineer-mechanic), where English uses a noun modified by an adjective (mechanical engineer)].
 
     Well, it turns out that there was a real “engineer-mechanic” named Bekker:
     Naval officer, Alexander Alfredovich von Bekker (1879-1920), Captain Second Class, mechanical engineer on the destroyer “Voskovoi”.
     He later served on the imperial launches and cutters which ferried the Imperial family and its guests between Peterhof and the imperial yachts anchored further offshore.
     Thus he was well known to the Imperial family.
 
     It does seem a bit far-fetched, but perhaps the origin of that term has something to do with him. But, if so, why or how?
 
     Of course, all of this is only a conjecture. We may never know for certain.