Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Nicholas II => Topic started by: Arleen on April 18, 2004, 07:08:37 PM

Title: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Arleen on April 18, 2004, 07:08:37 PM
I am rereading Peter Kurth's great book TSAR, The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra, the pictures bring me back to it again and again, and not for the reason of this topic!!  But it does come to mind, on page 111 is "Nicky's bare butt".  Where are these pictures taken and who are the other men in them and WHY ARE THEY ALL NUDE???  
Arleen
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JM on April 18, 2004, 07:18:15 PM
I think the photos were taken during the family's holiday on the Standart. I'm not too sure though.

As to why they are all nude. I think that's just how they swam.

I wonder who took the pictures :-/? Seems kind of creepy to me.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Arleen on April 18, 2004, 07:29:19 PM
In the pictures taken of Nicholas, Olga and Tatiana at Livadia swimming in the sea they all have those cute striped swimsuits on.
Arleen
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Forum Admin on April 18, 2004, 07:43:47 PM
They were taken in Finland, on family vacations. Nothing "creepy" at all...the other men are officers of the Standardt, Nicholas's friends, and they always swam naked.  It was private, there was nobody else there, and there was no 'shame' in men together swimming nude at the time. Many references write that Alexei love to watch them dive and swim like that.
Our collection has a wonderful original print by the famous Russian military artist Samokish showing a cavalry regiment swimming together naked...done in the 1890s.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Arleen on April 18, 2004, 07:48:22 PM
Rob, Thanks. In whose album do they appear...who took the pictures??
I think the whole thing is pretty cool!     Arleen
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Forum Admin on April 18, 2004, 07:50:58 PM
There are some in Vyroubovas albums, but none fully naked,  the rest, full monty ones... are in, as far as I know, the Imperial Family's personal albums in GARF. I suspect Alexei took them, but no way to know for sure. Someone else may know more than I do.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JM on April 18, 2004, 07:57:45 PM
I understand that it was an acceptable thing to take nude pictures of your friends swimming.

Still, my 21st century way of looking at things makes me think; "creepy" 8)!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: ptitchka on April 18, 2004, 08:20:10 PM
There are one or two that I have seen of little Alexei skinny-dipping, too.  I suppose that our society is just a lot more embarrassed at the thought of people swimming without bathing suits back then.  Of course, in mixed company men swam in striped bathing suits, which one can see the Emperor, his son and even the portly Derevenko wearing in photographs.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Joanna on April 18, 2004, 08:43:22 PM
In Nicholas and Alexandra The Family Albums by Prince Michael of Greece there are these same two photographs on page 141 with a caption "Summer 1912 Gulf of Finland. Nicholas II was an advocate of hydrotherapy... Although amongst men only no-one wore a swimming costume, the strange thing is that in this prudish period, and in this family so attached to certain conventions, the Tsar ... has allowed himself to have his photograph taken naked, and that one can find this extraordinary document in his daughters' album" There are also films of these same photos.

It is funny that today we think ourselves blase of nudity and look on with horror the thought of living during the times of Victorian prudery but it was a myth. Not only these photos and films but the sensuality of women's decolletage and men in their officers' uniforms with those tight breeches oh la la !!!!

Joanna
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Arleen on April 18, 2004, 09:05:00 PM
Thanks again Rob, I think its a real hoot that Vyroubova had some in her albums. (considering the supposed crush she had on Nicholas) Makes you wonder WHO took the pictures.  I didn't KNOW they had full monty photos...its a wonder they haven't turned up in print or on a website.
It just shows me how down to earth the Tsar was.....Arleen
PS...didn't he have a great bod??
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 18, 2004, 10:19:21 PM
Wow, what a startling topic!  What next?!  ::)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Anastasia took that photo of her father swimming naked.  She had a way of sneaking up on other people and taking photos of them before they could say no . . . or were even aware!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Namarolf on April 18, 2004, 11:01:59 PM
Well, at least they didn't complain about the paparazzi. I get amused when present-day royals have no problem to go around dressed like Adam and Eve in yatches and beaches, but later felt outraged if a daring photographer publishes their pictures. When I think of some recent cases, I certainly prefer to have a Prime Minister or a President around instead of royals.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: BobAtchison on April 19, 2004, 10:01:24 AM
It was an Russian army tradition for men to bathe this way together.  They rode horses into rivers naked to bathe them this way as well.

Russians had a different attitude toward bathing semi-publically.

Bob
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JM on April 19, 2004, 04:34:04 PM
Yah, so did the Romans.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Ammie on July 02, 2004, 12:31:20 PM
Hi all!  Searching the web on Queen Olga of Greece I came across a website of tattoos.  It says that Nicky had a star tattoo. Does anybody know where it was? One other website said that King George V & Tsar Nicholas were heavily tattooed.
TIA
Ammie
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Louise on July 02, 2004, 05:55:25 PM
Also there are pictures of Nicholas standing in the water, washing and there are no visible tatoos.

Louise
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 02, 2004, 08:55:22 PM
I thought I read that on his long trip of Asia while Tsarevich (where the Otsu attack occured) that he did go to a tattoo parlor with his cousin George of Greece.  George V has been written of having his arms heavily tattooed from his time as a sailor (and I don't think I've ever seen a picture of him without his shirt). Rumors even started that he and his elder brother had their noses tattooed while on the Bacchante, prompting Queen Alexandra to chastise him for having "his impudent snout" tattooed and "wouldn't people laugh at him". Turns out they had some pollen on their noses (forget why) and the press misrepresented it.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 02, 2004, 08:56:15 PM
Quote
There are some photos of Nicky swimming naked.  I wouldn't call him heavily tattooed. ;D


Yeah, based on that famous "naked rear" shot of him swimming, it definitely didn't seem that THAT was where the tattoo might be.  ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: anna on July 03, 2004, 03:48:15 AM
Didn't Nicky had a tattoo on his arm? Left or right don't know.
Anna
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet_Ashton on July 07, 2004, 03:45:34 PM
The Japanese police reports of the 1890-1 Grand Tour remarked that Nicholas and George went to get tattoos - exactly where (on their bodies :-) ) I can't recall, but they were being watched fairly closely, so I have to assume this was true and they were actually seen entering the tattoo parlour - and that the tattooists who gave statements to the police were similiarly telling the truth (I'd be more cynical if they were talking to the press)

Janet
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet_Ashton on July 08, 2004, 12:14:38 PM
Quote
If you could recall, I would love to know! I have a book on Nicky's world trip by Uchtomski, but unfortunately, it only covers their stay in Siam and at Saigon.



I'll look out the reports again, but it could take a few days....
Ukhtomskii is quite discreet; he even draws a veil so to speak over the belly dancers and the geishas...:-) (his writings on the former are very lofty and sarcastic, but Nicholas's diary claims that far from disdaining them Ukhtomskii was actually doing "all sorts of things" with them!)

Janet

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchessella on August 06, 2004, 11:23:13 AM
I was flipping through Peter Kurth's Tsar and right near the infamous naked swimming shot, there's a photo of the Tsar naked from the waste up, washing up it looks like. It's hard to tell whether is a shadow or not, but it looks like there could be a tattoo on his upper forearm (where lots of men got them back then--and now--I think that's where at least one of George V's was which is probably why you never seem his bare arms.).
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: ptitchka on August 06, 2004, 12:15:13 PM
This intrigues me -- when I was first preparing for conversion I read that according to the tradition of the Orthodox Church tattoos are forbidden.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 06, 2004, 12:25:31 PM
Good point. I had forgotten all about that. I think it was/is [?] considered a sort of "desecration" of the human body, but more frowned upon than outright condemed.
I vaguely remember something the same in the Catholic tradition as well.
The again, sailors traditions are pretty strong as well...
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchessella on August 06, 2004, 05:04:37 PM
Hmm, that's interesting. I didn't know it was once forbidden by the Catholic Church then (though not now). Sailor's traditions are pretty strong (witness all those crusty WW2 guys with their "Mama" and anchor tattoos--some of them had to be Orthodox or Catholic  ;) ). There's an Asian tradition (I believe) of henna tattoos and other non-permanent ones used for decoration but not meant to last--maybe Nicky got one of those?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 06, 2004, 06:00:48 PM
Could be a temporary tatoo couldn't it?
I will not swear by the Catholic taboo. If it was, it was just a "minor" sin or whatever.
Robert
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: KatieAnn on August 10, 2004, 10:32:51 AM
No big deal about Nicky swimming naked; he wouldn't have done so if ladies had been present.  I remember seeing a photo of a nude Alexei being rinsed-off (via a bucket!) by Derevenko.  Poor lamb was shivering like mad so I don't think the water around Finland can be that warm even in summer.  Wonder if Nicky took that photo?

Queen Victoria and Prince Albert frequently gave each other statues and paintings of nude subjects (many hung at Osborne House on the Isle of Wight and are some are still there), but Victoria insisted that her bath and toilet be hidden behind doors and covered when not in use.  Definitely one for Freud!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet_W. on August 10, 2004, 12:03:53 PM
Perhaps QV felt this way: Intimacy with one's partner . . . no prob! But, with regards to anything the servants must take care of . . . keep it discreet!

And from what I've read about Alexandra, I think she was of a similar mindset. She and Nicholas are usually so restrained in their photos,* but we know that Nicholas and Alexandra were very passionate in private.

And with regards to that famous "bare bottom" photo . . . I've always wondered if "the imp" didn't happen to take that photo. It was found in the OTMA scrapbooks, after all, and I think Anastasia--far more than any of her older sisters--would have been just the one to have been siddling around the Standart, waiting for her opportunity!




* The one exception being that very funny photo of the two of them kissing, with Xenia and Sandro kissing nearby, and Olga A. standing between them with a goofy expression on her face!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarai on August 10, 2004, 01:09:37 PM
Quote
Perhaps QV felt this way: Intimacy with one's partner . . . no prob! But, with regards to anything the servants must take care of . . . keep it discreet! And from what I've read about Alexandra, I think she was of a similar mindset.


With regards to Alexandra's modesty, this reminds me of readings stating that she, unlike many ladies of her position, actually dressed herself after bathing instead of having her maids dress her; thus no maids ever saw her nude. I can't help but agree with her in this preference and admire her for preserving her privacy and modesty. I know I would have done the same given the choice had I been a high-ranking lady at the time.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: KatieAnn on August 11, 2004, 04:53:25 AM
Sarai - like you, NOBODY would see me nude!  If I had a personal maid I too would be like Alix.  I'd bathe and dress before being seen by her.  I'm not excessively modest or a prude - but I don't have a great figure and I'm not having anyone eyeing up and criticising MY cellulite!

Helen - Feng Shui is a nice idea!  But the reason the bath and lavatory were covered was more to do with the sometimes smelly drains than positive energy leeching away.

In some houses in Britain it was considered proper to cover the legs of the piano as they were considered to be too 'feminine' and not to be gazed on.  It might cause lecherous feelings ....!

And, just as I think about Osborne House, it makes me wonder if Alexandra had an input into the design of the new Livadia Palace - the Italian villa style of both buildings are pretty remarkable, and quite similar in certain respects.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mike on August 11, 2004, 05:47:53 AM
[size=10]Some background for Russian men nude-bathing together:[/size]

The old Russian army was staffed almost completely by peasant guys. They were accustomed to bathing in traditional village wet-steam baths and them immersing - nude of course - into a nearby creek ot pond. All enlisted men were marched, usually on Saturdays, to a public bath where hundreds of men bathed together. In summer every army unit would use any opportunity to rinse men and horses in whatever mass of water was available - river, lake or sea bay. Officers always participated in such mass bathing exercises, including young grand dukes and other aristocrats who were junior or middle-rank officers in guards regiments.

Bathing suits at that time were known only to the upper class. A view of an officer in such a stripped suit would become a perpetual joke to his soldiers and to the whole regiment, while displaying his bare bottom parts was by no means unusual or embarassing.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchessella on August 11, 2004, 09:09:57 AM
Quote
Perhaps QV felt this way: Intimacy with one's partner . . . no prob! But, with regards to anything the servants must take care of . . . keep it discreet!And from what I've read about Alexandra, I think she was of a similar mindset. She and Nicholas are usually so restrained in their photos,* but we know that Nicholas and Alexandra were very passionate in private. * The one exception being that very funny photo of the two of them kissing, with Xenia and Sandro kissing nearby, and Olga A. standing between them with a goofy expression on her face!


I love that photo! I have it and am trying to find a .jpg copy since mine is .bmp. This reminds me of a QV anecdote re: her granddaughter Thora. Noticing her granddaughter's decolletage, she had her place a flower or something in it reminding her 'of the footmen, dear'. I guess from their vantage point standing behind the family at dinner it could've been a nice view otherwise.  ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: koloagirl on August 12, 2004, 03:06:11 PM
 :o :o
May I ask a foolish question please?  The infamous "bare bottom" picture.....is it in the Yale
Library photo albums?  I know I have seen it in
the past ( :o ::)) but can't remember if it was in them or not.....reading your posts has made me wish to view it again!! ( :o :o)

Thank you in advance....you all are so great...I am so very grateful I have found this board of people who are interested in something that people have always thought I was foolishly interested in.  Now I know that I am not so alone!  Wonderful thing, the internet!

Janet R.     :-*
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eurohistory on August 13, 2004, 09:18:04 AM
I think that there is nothing infamous about this photo.  It was a custom for Russians to bathe naked, without maliciousness, a natural act...thankfully they were not as prudish as we have become in these days.  Although I am always surprised to see many of our fellow Americans trek to Greece every summer and unclothe at the beach without any trouble.

Arturo Beéche ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Annie on August 13, 2004, 09:44:36 AM
I agree with Alexandra, I would dress myself too. Not only would I not want anyone to see me naked, I would find it humiliating to have another person dress me like a baby! I can't understand why that was considered such a privilege. Now of course they'd need help with those ball costumes and getting fixed up fancy, but just to have somebody dress me out of the bath, no thanks! I just don't get the nude bathing thing either. The guys I know won't even shower at the YMCA because they are all open stalls. If you want to bathe together, okay, but there should also be divided stalls for those who desire their personal privacy. The women have that, so should the men.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michelle on August 13, 2004, 03:06:28 PM
Actually, at our YMCA, the women's showers DON'T have any doors!  It's all out in the open!! :o  :P  I absolutely HATE showering there if I go swimming in one of their pools!  Not because I think I'm fat or anything, it's just that I don't really like being totally bare for the whole world to see my privates  :-[  :P
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on August 14, 2004, 11:29:49 PM
Actually, this whole business of having maids dressoneself goes back to the days of high court etiquette under the Bourbons at Versailles and the Habsburgs in Vienna.
It was an actual state occaision togo to bed [coucher] and wake & bathe [levee] assisted not by maids, but by noble ladies "granted" the privilage. It was a grave matter of rank & privilage, the queen's underwear going through a whole line of noble ladies while she stood there freezing! This was done "in public" i.e. the state bedroom, access to watch being by rank or bribe.
It was actually a bit of a joke, as normally, after "officially" retireing, the queen [or king] would move from the hyge, cabopied state bed to more comfy quartes.
I understand this was all a way to keep the troublesome nobles at court and  from causing trouble. By the time this evolved to our "era' these tasks had been relegated to maids & valets. Performing the same functions in "stead" of whomever had the actual "right" to do it. Obviously it was cumbersome & time consuming way to get some sleep. Also, remember even at this period, bathing was still not really an everyday occurence for most people. {I could see why not in the old days} Alexandra's generation had pretty much dropped all this, but the titles remained, mistress of this & that.  As in any age though, the sticklers for "tradition" would protest.
Communal bathing, at least among men, was not only common, but often the only way for men to socialize without form & formality. Bath houses were also very traditional.
I do not know about women, but for boys, common showering starts with the first gym class at school in all cases I know of.  Especially in team sports. Then [if the route is taken] the military, on to gym as adults. No big deal.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sérgio on September 15, 2004, 04:21:16 PM
About King George V tattoo:

"The King also had a few tattoos on his arms which he had gotten done during his days in the navy. After becoming King, he would never allow them to been seen in public again."

From Wikipedia.

P.S.:
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: James1941 on September 29, 2004, 02:06:48 PM
At various times Anna Annderson mentioned that "her father" had tattoos and described them. For her detractors this was proof that she was an imposter as they maintained the Tsar had no tatoos. However, these were usually people who were not that intimate with the imperial family. Some of her supporters, who were in more of a position to know, supported her claim that  the Tsar had tattoos and described them also as proof that she was the real Anastasia. Just another mystery in the fascinating story of this woman.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: James1941 on January 19, 2005, 08:14:21 PM
There is also a photograph of Alexei and the young Prince Igor Constantinovich (who was murdered at Alapaievsk) laying in shallow water on the bank of a river near army headquarters in Mogilev during WWI.
Both are nude. Alexei is staying with the Tsar in the Governor's house and Igor was one of the Tsar's aide de camps. It may be this picture is associated with the one of Alexei being washed off from a bucket by Dervenko. Anyone have more info.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 20, 2005, 09:29:01 PM
I heared that in Russian Court, Swimming nude was ok,..I have seen pics of Alexei and Nicholas nude  :-X,..it a little weird for me,.. I don't save Nude pics of N and Lex, that would be just nasty if I did,..

Plus: I "HATE" seeing nude pics. I know it the human body. but still... I don't like or want to swim nude with others. at all..
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: otmafan on January 20, 2005, 09:40:42 PM
Quote
I heared that in Russian Court, Swimming nude was ok,..I have seen pics of Alexei and Nicholas nude  :-X,..it a little weird for me,.. I don't save Nude pics of N and Lex, that would be just nasty if I did,..

Plus: I "HATE" seeing nude pics. I know it the human body. but still... I don't like or want to swim nude with others. at all..


It was so common in that day that nobody really paid attention, i guess. it is still a little unusual though.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on January 21, 2005, 03:48:51 PM
Yes, it was the normal way of swimming. No one would have batted an eyelid. (OK, well maybe some might have).
I suspect in other countries, or indeed, in mixed bathing, covering up would have been de riguer.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Elisabeth on January 21, 2005, 04:33:11 PM
When I first read the subject heading of this thread, I thought you were referring to something entirely different. Those of you who have read carefully Venyamin Alekseyev's book on the murder of the Romanovs will know what I mean. But I'm not going to go into details because to do so might be considered morbid or prurient by some.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: AGRBear on January 21, 2005, 07:58:18 PM
Let's take this into it's time period.

The bathing suits made were of cotton material.

The material aborbed water and grew very heavy.

Heavy material does not give the greatest sensation when trying to swim.

Heavy material, like swimming trunks, just slipped down so why wear them if they ended up around the knees?

There wasn't any spedo in those days.

Also, in those days, swimming was another way of bathing.

Nudity among men was taken in stride, it was the women, I assume,  who were the shy ones, more Victorian in attitude.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Yoyo on January 22, 2005, 02:20:29 PM

Nudity among men was taken in stride, it was the women, I assume,  who were the shy ones, more Victorian in attitude.....

AGRBear[/quote]

I think women still are a bit shy about appearing nude in front of other women. It's perculiar that for instance men don't mind showering in common showers with other men, whereas most women would. However my (straight) male friends would never sleep in the same bed with another man, while women won't care at all about sharing her bed with a female friend.
8)
Yoyo
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Forum Admin on January 22, 2005, 02:52:42 PM
It was also a very common thing for the Russian army to swim/bathe in the nude communally.  We have an original print by the artist Samokish which shows a group of cavalry men bathing themselves and their horses while nude, in a river. The cavalry men I mean, of course the horses ARE nude too...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Olga on January 22, 2005, 06:50:38 PM
Quote
The cavalry men I mean, of course the horses ARE nude too...


But what if they were shy? They might have wanted to wear underwear or something.......... ;D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: pushkina on January 23, 2005, 04:39:27 AM
Quote
When I first read the subject heading of this thread, I thought you were referring to something entirely different. Those of you who have read carefully Venyamin Alekseyev's book on the murder of the Romanovs will know what I mean. But I'm not going to go into details because to do so might be considered morbid or prurient by some.



not fair. tell something, even if only privately.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on January 23, 2005, 03:01:09 PM
I think I read that after stripping the corpses someone felt the Tsar's rear end and discovered it to be remarkably, um, well, let's just say that the Tsar was a very fit man who enjoyed exercise and had a body that reflected that.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: otmafan on February 08, 2005, 11:31:43 AM
It just doesn't make sense. There are plently of beautiful photographs of Alexei and his family WITH clothes. I don't know how nude photos would be necessary, unless.....  :o
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Valmont on February 08, 2005, 02:28:11 PM
I remember seing an old film of  N bathing with his generals, and they were all nude. There was NOTHING  weird or nasty among men to do so. It was  some sort of "General and common" custom...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 02:53:45 PM
I agree Valmont--it was a "manly man" kind of thing.  I guess we were all a little taken aback that someone who is starting up a Romanov website is looking for nude photos.  One would think that there would be other photographic priorities.  :)

But, if we have misunderstood, so be it.  But to my knowledge the only naked photos of Nicky and Alexei are of them swimming.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: RichC on February 08, 2005, 03:46:43 PM
Quote

Exactly!!  This thread is rapidly deteriorating....


I've seen all the photos in question and they aren't so bad.  There's nothing nasty or x-rated about them at all.  I'm surprised nobody has posted the photo of Nicholas swimming (the one that's in the book Tsar).  You see his butt, big deal; he obviously didn't care who saw him like that...

But I would not post pictures of Alexei (swimming with no clothes on) -- on this or any other website.  As innocent as they are, you would just be asking for trouble.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on February 08, 2005, 07:19:21 PM
Quote
There are some in Vyroubovas albums, but none fully naked,  the rest, full monty ones... are in, as far as I know, the Imperial Family's personal albums in GARF. I suspect Alexei took them, but no way to know for sure. Someone else may know more than I do.


"FullMonty"? lol, that's funny. I wanted to ask, what does GARF stand for?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on February 08, 2005, 07:21:03 PM
Quote

It was so common in that day that nobody really paid attention, i guess. it is still a little unusual though.


But i have yet to see any pics of women in the court swimming naked! Only Nicholas, and some sailors etc. in the Finland pictures.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on February 08, 2005, 07:31:09 PM
If anyone has read the album "Royal Russia" i was stunned at first to find a picture of Derevenko rinsing off a nude Alexei. Needless to say i was about 9 when i saw it, ( :o lol)
i was a little weary to pick up the book again. But i found out that they were nude a lot when they swam, and didn't Nicholas and Alexandra bathe nude(well, duh, nude!) once in a pond because they thought it would help them concieve(which they did)?

And i think the person who snapped the Tsar's nekked butt was Anastasia..it seems like something she would do! lol
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 07:50:58 PM
Quote

I wanted to ask, what does GARF stand for?


Those are the initials for the Russian State Archives (but I can't remember what they stand for.)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: bluetoria on February 09, 2005, 04:43:27 AM
Quote
"and didn't Nicholas and Alexandra bathe nude once in a pond because they thought it would help them concieve(which they did)?


I think, if I've got the right occasion, that this is a little different. It was during a pilgrimage to Sarov & it had a religious significance.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 09, 2005, 08:03:09 AM
Quote
...what does GARF stand for?


GARF = Gosudarstveniy Arhiv Rossiyskoy Federatziyi  (State Archives of the Russian Federation)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: AGRBear on February 09, 2005, 01:22:07 PM
Back in the dark ages when my husband was going to school, we lived in a community which had a lot of foreign students.  Since all of us were young we all had children ranging from the age of infants to eight or nine.  I remember when I first saw a court yard full of naked little bodies running through sprinklers on a warm Sunny day.  None of the American children, however, were naked.  They had had on underwear or bathing suits.

Different cultures.

USA was caught in the old Victorian culture where bodies were covered.

I don't recall who it was, but I think it was one of Queen Victoria's daughters who had her first child and was shocked it wasn't born with clothes.

I doubt the story is true,  but, I think it was created to show how caught up the people in the Victorian age were about the body being covered.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on February 09, 2005, 02:56:40 PM
Quote

I think, if I've got the right occasion, that this is a little different. It was during a pilgrimage to Sarov & it had a religious significance.


Yes, you are right. I couldn't remember the exact name of the pilgrimage...thanks!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on February 09, 2005, 02:57:47 PM
Quote
I don't recall who it was, but I think it was one of Queen Victoria's daughters who had her first child and was shocked it wasn't born with clothes.
 


You know, I wouldn't doubt it if this was a true statement!  :o
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: RichC on February 09, 2005, 03:25:28 PM
I'm American but I lived in Germany as a child and there is a big difference in cultural attitudes about nudity -- especially male nudity.  Based on my own experience, male nudity is very much frowned upon in the U.S. compared to Germany.  

However, there's a great nude beach in Austin, Texas, of all places.  I haven't been there in YEARS, but perhaps Nicholas II would have been happy to swim there!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on February 09, 2005, 04:17:34 PM
Quote
I'm American but I lived in Germany as a child and there is a big difference in cultural attitudes about nudity -- especially male nudity.  Based on my own experience, male nudity is very much frowned upon in the U.S. compared to Germany.  

However, there's a great nude beach in Austin, Texas, of all places.  I haven't been there in YEARS, but perhaps Nicholas II would have been happy to swim there!


lol, well, i think we covered the fact that people swam naked mostly because the bathing suits were bulky and un-comfortable, but also because how else would you get clean? A lot of people bathed when they went in the lake(nicholas too!), and it's easier to get clean naked! lol (well, of course it is!  ::))
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: felix on February 12, 2005, 09:18:23 AM
All my friends and I,skinny dipped in  our teens. It wasnt any big thing. Just boys having fun.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on March 03, 2005, 01:10:00 AM
Quote
If anyone has read the album "Royal Russia" i was stunned at first to find a picture of Derevenko rinsing off a nude Alexei. Needless to say i was about 9 when i saw it, ( :o lol)
i was a little weary to pick up the book again. But i found out that they were nude a lot when they swam, and didn't Nicholas and Alexandra bathe nude(well, duh, nude!) once in a pond because they thought it would help them concieve(which they did)?


How old was Alexei in that picture?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on March 03, 2005, 08:19:07 PM
I think he was about 10 or 11.  ???
I can't really post it (for an obvious reason ::)) so I'm making a rough guess.  
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: etonexile on April 23, 2005, 05:33:27 PM
My grandfather told me that he and all the males swam nude at the YMCA in San Francisco in the 1920's...

I think even today,Europeans are more casual about nakedness....The irony of wild,swinging,sexually free America...we don't approve of speedos for men or nudity....t-hee.... ;D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: tobik on April 24, 2005, 12:11:07 PM
It should come as no surprise to learn that it is still the done thing to bathe naked in Russia.  If one goes to the banya (bath house) with friends or even with people one has not met before, one should always go naked.  There is something extraordinarily refreshing and honest about the whole practice.  

For those who are shocked by the site of a 'saint's' (!) naked bottom, I would suggest that they try to look at the world less through the prism of their own sensibilities, and more through the context of cultural circumstance.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: lexi4 on April 24, 2005, 05:30:44 PM
FYI.
Around 430 AD the Celtic warriors in Ireland despisded the protection of breastplates and liked to stip naked for battle. Can you imagine the faces of the Roman warriors when confronted with a tattooed warrior, his muscles bulging, his hair raised in spikes and his face distorted in a frenzy? This was an ancient tradition. Sometimes the warriors would wear loin clothes. I say this only to point out that attitudes about nudity are fluid. I have seen the picture of Nicholas and didn't think anything about it. I think society has "grown into" its inhibitions about nudity.
It is true, as pointed out earlier, that no one ever saw Alix without her clothes on. She bather herself and when she was finished put on her kimono. Her maids weren't summmoned until she was almost finished dressing.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Aline on May 12, 2005, 07:57:15 AM
Grand duchess Olaga remembered (The Last grand duchess, written by Ian Vorris) that russian soldiers were swimming together naked and when the tzar with his family was seen, soldiers took their hats and made honor, and then continued swimming/bathing. It was a natural way of live. I live in Finlad and here we take sauna together wit family/relatives/friends naked and that has always been so and is natural. Aline
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on July 06, 2005, 04:09:04 PM
i found this place where u can here Nicky's voice its amazing

http://www.naotmaa.net/index1.html

go there and click sound... and u'll hear it. i don't understand it, but its amazing! ;D :D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Forum Admin on July 06, 2005, 05:11:10 PM
This has been discussed already here:
 http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=family;action=display;num=1076880367;start=



This link is no longer active - Alixz
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mark C. on July 16, 2005, 03:12:48 PM
When the Allied armies occupied Paris after the fall of Napoleon in 1814, French print makers recording two things relevant to this topic, and of interest to the Parisians: 1) Scots highlanders wore nothing under their kilts, and 2) Cossack units rode their horses enmasse, all nude, into the Seine and in full view of the public, for group baths.

Mark C.
New Jersey

PS  There is a clothing optional beach here in NJ which has hundreds of users on summer weekends.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: palimpsest on August 24, 2005, 03:14:20 AM
From "The Story of my Life" by Queen Marie of Romania [Missy]

(http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/2222/untitledtar10aw.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: palimpsest on August 24, 2005, 03:14:59 AM
(http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/6972/untitledtar28ch.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: palimpsest on August 24, 2005, 03:15:48 AM
(http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7177/untitledtar37vw.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: palimpsest on August 24, 2005, 03:16:24 AM
(http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/8317/untitledtar40fy.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on August 24, 2005, 08:44:24 AM
How interesting that he spells his own name, "Nicky." In The Complete Wartime Correspondence, his signature is always given "Niki," while it's Alix who consistently uses the spelling, N-i-c-k-y. In both cases, he was writing in English. I wonder what made the difference?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Laura Mabee on August 24, 2005, 11:20:22 AM
Facinating, as a few members and I were talking about his hand writing last week. This helps greatly!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: ChristineM on August 24, 2005, 12:14:21 PM
It is the content of this letter which I find absolutely fascinating.   Thank you Palimpsest.

tsaria
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: palimpsest on August 24, 2005, 12:45:40 PM
Thank you for the thanks!

And another one for you, this time in French, from the same book. If I remember correctly this one is after the abdication! I don't have the book now to make sure.



(http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/1172/untitled13nh6nd.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on August 24, 2005, 04:30:34 PM
Maybe where it says 'Niki' in that book, he had signed his name in Cyrillic script: "Huku", and so they just transliterated it as is, whereas the Empress just wrote his name in English.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Tatia on September 06, 2005, 10:29:21 AM
Maybe at first he didn't know it was spelled as 'Nicky', so he just wrote it phonetically ???
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: sailor_of_standart on September 06, 2005, 08:00:07 PM
I was watching a documentary video of Nicholas and Alexandra.  It was hosted by Prince Michael the Duke of Kent.    He simply adored his cousins.  Anyway one of the scenes in it was of palace or house were Nicholas and Alix had once stayed (it is now a museum) one of the window panes was engraved with nurmous signatures.  Apparently the wealthy used to have fun by carving their names on window glass with diamonds.  In one corner you see Alix has scracted "Alix" in to the glass just under it was Nicholas' which read as "Nicky" so I think he wrote his name any way he liked.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on September 06, 2005, 08:15:57 PM
Hmmm, Prince Michael is not the Duke of Kent, his brother is.  Prince Michael is indeed the one with the Romanov fascination.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: sailor_of_standart on September 06, 2005, 08:58:25 PM
Oh so what is Prince Michael the Duke of?  Yes he has got a great fasination of IF.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: David_Pritchard on September 09, 2005, 02:48:10 PM
His title is Prince Michael of Kent with the style of Royal Highness. His elder brother Edward is HRH the Duke of Kent.

Did Nicholas borrow stationary for this message? The cypher at the top of the letter appears to be AF with the letter mirrored to the top and left. This would be the cypher of the Empress.

David
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on September 10, 2005, 09:57:15 PM
Nope, that's Nicky's stationary -- at least according to Alexander von Solodkoff, who used that design to decorate the endpapers of The Jewel Album of Tsar Nicholas II. I believe the monogram is meant to be a jumble of both his and Alix's initials.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: sailor_of_standart on September 11, 2005, 06:27:48 PM
Interesting, I think the jumbled intials look kinda ugly in a way.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: David_Pritchard on September 11, 2005, 07:45:05 PM
You are very correct. It is not an attractive cypher. Surely they did not approach a well known designer with this concept. The most noted of the cypher designers at the turn of the century were Peter Behrens, Director of the Industrial Art School in Dusseldorf and British artist A.A. Turbayne of Carlton Studios.

It should not however be taken as a blanket condemnation of the artistic value of the cyphers of Nicholas and Alexandra. Most of the Imperial couple's cyphers are of the first class design wise. That is why this particular cypher stands out from the crowd in its blatant ugliness.

David
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on September 12, 2005, 04:11:04 PM
I don't think it is a combination of the Tsar and Empress's initials - just the Tsar's: N and A for Nikolai Alexandrovich. I am guessing here, but I suppose it was the monogram he had had all his life, or from whenever he was first given one. Maybe that look was popular in the late 1860s or 70s....BTW, I think it would be quite hard to combine 'H' and 'A' attractively without it appearing rather feminine.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on September 13, 2005, 08:23:29 AM
Does anyone have a photo of Nicky that shows the scar left by the attack in Otsu?

Also, when his skull was found, were there any markings that corresponded with the Otsu wound? (I know I read about this someplace, but I can't remember where  ::))
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on September 13, 2005, 09:46:35 AM
I've solved the Niki/Nicky puzzle:

Nicholas signed all of his letters to Alix, "Nicky." It was the telegrams he sent in Russian that were translterated as, "Niki."
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Tatia on September 13, 2005, 10:54:15 AM
Well, that actually makes sense :)
Thanks for solving the 'mystery', sarahelizabeth.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on September 13, 2005, 04:04:21 PM
I am sure I read somewhere there was no mark found on the skull, which lead some to think maybe it wasn't the Tsar's after-all, and thus all the skeletons not those of the IF. It would be interesting to find out for sure if there was a mark on the skull or not, but even if there wasn't, it doesn't preclude a nasty scar on the skin.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Dominic_Albanese on September 13, 2005, 05:03:21 PM
It is my understanding that there was *no* scar on the skull thought to be that of Nicholas II.  I suggest you look in the survivors thread - there is substantial information on the bones in that thread.

dca
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: sailor_of_standart on September 13, 2005, 07:54:34 PM
True, you don't need to have marks on the bones to have a bad scar on your skin.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Nastya on September 19, 2005, 05:36:26 PM
not that i want to see his bare butt....GROSS! but can someone post that pic ive never seen or heard of it before
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: anna on September 20, 2005, 01:24:47 PM
Quote
not that i want to see his bare butt....GROSS! but can someone post that pic ive never seen or heard of it before


Looks the same as anybody else's bare bottom.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Nastya on October 08, 2005, 01:08:20 AM
duh! but i love photos and i havent seen this picture before and want to see it.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Laura Mabee on October 08, 2005, 09:15:07 AM
Then go to your library and pick up "Nicholas and Alexandra - The Family Albums" By Prince Michael of Greece
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 21, 2005, 12:34:33 PM
In Japan he made a gragon tattoo. On the right hand.
He wrote about it in the diary. He also said that it took 7 hours and he would never do tatoo again, but the tatoo is great and there was no pain in the hand.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 21, 2005, 11:59:43 PM
As I understood, after 7 hours, when tatoo was made,
the hand was not painful. But he did not want to do this again.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 23, 2005, 03:11:37 PM
Quote
In Japan he made a gragon tattoo. On the right hand.
He wrote about it in the diary. He also said that it took 7 hours and he would never do tatoo again, but the tatoo is great and there was no pain in the hand.

How interesting. With all the family snapshots in print, you'd think we'd have noticed the tatoo before -- especially since he sure didn't seem to have a habit of posing with one hand hidden, like Napoleon & Kerensky!  ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 23, 2005, 11:02:15 PM
You could believe it or not , but he wrote it himself in the diary.
The hand is quite long. From the shoulder to arm.
He did not clarify the exact place.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 25, 2005, 08:32:05 AM
Quote
The hand is quite long. From the shoulder to arm.


Ah-ha! I think we're having a translation misunderstanding. What Russian word did Nicky use? "Hand" in English refers only to the fingers & palm (ruchka, po-russkii?). From the shoulder to the wrist, we'd say "arm."
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 25, 2005, 10:53:04 AM
He used the word "ruka" - which could mean the space from the shoulder to the end of a finger.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 25, 2005, 10:54:34 AM
Thank you for clarifying the meaning "arm"
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 25, 2005, 10:57:08 AM
I also think that he could do the tattoo in the inner part of the hand.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 25, 2005, 12:42:55 PM
I've got some photos of Nicky swimming with Olga Alexandrovna & the girls -- I'll see if there's any sign of a tatoo in those. At least we can narrow down the possible locations by process of elimination...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 25, 2005, 04:42:48 PM
I found an article related to this topic on some obscure website...

Excerpt: "....Michinaga Ei's charm and language skills took on special significance in April 1891 when Nicholas, heir to the Russian throne, called at Nagasaki on the first leg of a tour of Japan. The czarevitch suffered through the obligatory official visits, including a sumptuous Japanese meal that included everything from wild duck soup to a crane fashioned from seaweed and a mysterious dish called "essence of lemon blossom," but he also made several private excursions into the city. On one such occasion Nicholas visited Goshinji Temple and paid his respects at the Russian Naval Cemetery. He thanked the resident priest for his hospitality to the Russian navy and care for the cemetery. Then after a few hours of curio hunting, he called at the home of a local merchant with business connections in Russia. Ei was on hand, having been recruited to serve as hostess and interpreter during the dinner held in the prince's honor. Nicholas caused surprise at the party by asking for information about Nagasaki tattoo artists. He had read in travel books about the artistic beauty of Japanese tattoos, and like many other Europeans of his generation he wanted to have one as an exotic souvenir of his adventures in the Far East. Messengers were immediately dispatched from the house, and the following day two of Nagasaki's most skillful tattoo artists arrived at the flagship Pamiat Azova with the tools of their trade. Within hours Nicholas had colorful dragons climbing his arms...."


See full article: http://www.uwosh.edu/home_pages/faculty_staff/earns/nick&ei.html
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 26, 2005, 12:27:30 AM
Dear Helen, thank you very much for a wonderful article.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 26, 2005, 12:59:46 AM
Here we go: (the extract from the Nicky's diary about tattoo)
16th April, Tuesday
" Vernulishy na fregat k chayu. V 6 1/2 byli na vsenochnoy. Shevich s nami goveet. Posle obeda reshilsha sdelaty sebe tatuirovku na pravoy ruke drakona; eto zanyalo 7 chasov vremeni c 9 chasov vechera do 4 nochi! Dovolyno raz proyti chrez eto radi udovolystviya , chtoby otbity okhoty v sebe nachinaty snova. Drakon vyshel na slavu i ruka sovsem ne bolela!"
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 26, 2005, 08:08:53 AM
Quote
Dear Helen, thank you very much for a wonderful article.


You're very welcome!  :)


Quote
Here we go: (the extract from the Nicky's diary about tattoo)
16th April, Tuesday
" Vernulishy na fregat k chayu. V 6 1/2 byli na vsenochnoy. Shevich s nami goveet . Posle obeda reshilsha sdelaty sebe tatuirovku na pravoy ruke drakona; eto zanyalo 7 chasov vremeni c 9 chasov vechera do 4 nochi! Dovolyno raz proyti chrez eto radi udovolystviya , chtoby otbity okhoty v sebe nachinaty snova. Drakon vyshel na slavu i ruka sovsem ne bolela!"


Let me attempt to translate this...

Returned to the ship (?) for tea. At 6:30 were on an all-nighter. [ Third sentence is unclear. After dinner I finally resolved to get a tatoo of a dragon on the right arm; this took seven hours - from 9 in the evening until 4 in the morning! It's enough to go through this "pleasure" once in order to be rid of all desire to do it again. In the end, the dragon came out glorious and the arm didn't hurt at all!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 26, 2005, 08:57:15 AM
Here are all the photos of Nicky with bare arms I'm aware of.
[glb]
Let the hunt begin!
[/glb]

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/scan0004.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/scan0003.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/scan0002.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/scan0001.jpg)

All these came from Prince Michael's book. I cropped out all the nudie bits!  ::)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 26, 2005, 02:54:59 PM
Frigate is the type of the ship.
Shevich s nami goveet :
Shevich ( Ambassador of Russia in Japan) is keeping to
maintain the church diet with us
( I think that Georgiy from New Zealand will translate better the church's vocabulary).
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on October 26, 2005, 03:07:22 PM
Hmmm, I don't know about that! But looking at the date of the entry, maybe it was during Lent. It means Shevich is (eating) fasting (food) with us.

Also the "all-nighter" refers to the Vigil Service at Church, which is Vespers, Matins and 1st Hour.

I don't see any dragons on his arms. Maybe he had them removed later?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 26, 2005, 04:48:34 PM
Quote
I don't see any dragons on his arms. Maybe he had them removed later?


It's possible that the tatoo was on the inside of the arm - the part we can't see in any of these photos. Maybe N strategically posed his arms in photos so that the tatoo was never seen.... Is it possible that it was  something he later regretted having?  ???
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 27, 2005, 01:32:02 AM
I have found in another book, that it was tatoo boom in the beginning of the century in Russia ( maybe because of Nicholas and Grand Dukes had it? 8))
I have read about special ball called "tatoo ball" which was held in Moscow . A lot of aristocracy and merchants (who were far more richer than lattest) participated in it.
Everybody had to make tatoo before participate in the ball. For this purpose, one most expensive and good tattoo  specialist came from London.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on October 27, 2005, 01:35:34 AM
It seems that there is something in the area of his elbow on the photo.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 27, 2005, 09:34:26 PM
Quote
I have found in another book, that it was tatoo boom in the beginning of the century in Russia ( maybe because of Nicholas and Grand Dukes had it? 8))
 


According to several other sources, so did Catherine the Great and Peter the Great. If this is true, the trend  goes way back!  ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 27, 2005, 10:03:20 PM
Quote
It's possible that the tatoo was on the inside of the arm - the part we can't see in any of these photos.


That seems to be our only remaining option -- unless it was a very small dragon!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Belochka on October 28, 2005, 12:22:01 AM
Quote
Shevich s nami goveet.


= "Shevich is fasting with us"
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Belochka on October 28, 2005, 12:31:17 AM
Quote

That seems to be our only remaining option -- unless it was a very small dragon!


No doubt any tatoo would have been tiny without being obvious.  Hardly imperious when being constantly photographed! ::)

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 28, 2005, 08:19:10 AM
Quote
No doubt any tatoo would have been tiny without being obvious.


Which makes me wonder why it took 7 hours to complete!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 01:35:21 PM
It could just be that it was on the inside of the forearm (where the ulna bone is)...

Kind of like this, but smaller:

(http://img496.imageshack.us/img496/610/tatoo6dg.jpg)

If so, then this is why we wouldn't be able to see it on any of the pics that Sarah posted.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 28, 2005, 01:54:27 PM
LOL, very wise, most people i know end up regretting them!

I can't see any tattoos on Nicky. he has a super physique in those photos.

I remember reading, it think it was Prince Louis of Battenburg was covered in tattoos and would show his grandchildren!!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on October 28, 2005, 02:02:29 PM
Quote


I can't see any tattoos on Nicky.


But we don't have any pics where the inside of his right forearm is showing...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2005, 12:22:44 PM
I wouldn't have been surprised if he got one when he visited Japan. There was a famous tattooist there (I forget the name but I posted it on the tattooed royalty thread) that a lot of royals visited. Edward VII, Eddy, George all went there when they were in the area. I think George Greece had one as well so maybe he and NII had them done on that visit?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Marialana on November 10, 2005, 06:46:51 PM
I think I've finally seen this much-discussed tattoo! I'm super untalented at posting links correctly, so I have to give "directions". On the Beinecke site, Album 2, page 9, 3rd picture in is a photo of Nicholas alone with his sleeve rolled up. If you click enlarge the pic twice you can definitely see something! Eureka, methinks I've found it!  :D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 10, 2005, 07:09:58 PM
Thanks, Marialana. Here is the close up of the picture... I think I also see something that could be a tatoo, but it's hard to tell... it sort of looks more like a scar... It doesn't really look a dragon either.

(http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/9045/tatoo8df.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Marialana on November 10, 2005, 07:15:49 PM
Thanks for posting the pic! It is kind of hard to see, definitely, but I think I can see some dragon wings. Or, maybe, I just want to see dragon wings, and it's a scar after all!  :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Dmitry2 on November 11, 2005, 11:11:41 AM
I don't think that is it.  Certainly, that isn't 7 hours of work, as HIM claimed it took.  
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2005, 05:18:04 PM
I saw a website with a pic of George V and Nicky. It said they were the most tattood rulers. I have sent them an email asking how they know this. I would love to know!!!  :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Marialana on November 11, 2005, 05:29:07 PM
I'm still thinking that it is indeed the dragon. I showed it to a few people who initially thought I was looking at the flaw in the center of the photo, but when they looked at the big shadow on his arm they saw dragon wings, too.  Though, some of my friends have been known to see things I want them to see so I'll stop pestering them!  :P ;D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2005, 05:46:03 PM
I think you are right!! Its does resemble a dragon, my friend has something similar!  :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2005, 05:51:18 PM
 ;D ;D

I think its a dragoon the more I look at it, seems to curl round.  :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 11, 2005, 05:52:49 PM
Quote
;D ;D

I think its a dragoon the more I look at it, seems to curl round.  :)


You mean like this:

(http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/451/dragon5sz.jpg)

Or maybe like this:

(http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6707/dragon6inverted2poster3qd.jpg)


Perhaps...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2005, 05:56:56 PM
No helen, more like this,  :)

ftp://http://www.smoki.cc.pl/gal_tatoo/dragon_arm4.jpg

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 11, 2005, 05:59:22 PM
Quote
No helen, more like this,  :)

ftp://http://www.smoki.cc.pl/gal_tatoo/dragon_arm4.jpg




But it looks kind of horizontally oriented and rather small, the one you showed is vertical and huge.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 11, 2005, 06:05:06 PM
Yes but its as if its a dragon pointing downwards and going of to his right :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on November 11, 2005, 06:14:14 PM
Quote
Yes but its as if its a dragon pointing downwards and going of to his right :)



Hmmm ... You mean like this:

(http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/9524/dragonarm4dr.jpg)

I don't know...

(http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/9045/tatoo8df.jpg)  

Maybe more this:

(http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/7776/moondragon1es.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 04:15:21 AM
More like the first one Helen. I'm sure you can see the darkness and shape of it on Nickys arm  :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Grand Duke on November 12, 2005, 02:13:25 PM
That is not a tattoo, it is scratch in the photo.

It seems he has a dragon tatoo but I think it is just a skin spot.



(http://livadia.org/tanya/images/nickytatiatennis.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Eddie_uk on November 12, 2005, 03:29:04 PM
Yes its below the scratch on the photo, i think it's a big dragon. You can see it too on the first and second  pic you posted Grand Duke :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Azarias on November 22, 2005, 02:58:50 AM
Actually I think it's wonderfully human for N II to have had a tattoo. After all, even a Czar is HUMAN! LOL
Certain people would say there is the old religious taboo about tattoos and desecration of the body etc etc but is anyone aware that the Coptic Orthodox Christians get a cross tattooed on the inner right wrist? No joke.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: James1941 on December 23, 2005, 08:11:22 PM
If he did indeed get tattooed by artists from the temple we must remember they probably did it the old fashioned way, using individual needles, rubbing the ink on, etc. I doubt they had the electric needles used today. This is probably why it took so long to complete, particularly if different colored inks were used.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on December 28, 2005, 11:41:48 AM
Japanese were schocked when Nicholas demanded to make a Tattoo.
Actually, the tatoo was the priviledge of the prisoners and rubbers.
In 1881 year England's Princes Albert and Georgies made tatooos too.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aya-anya on January 07, 2006, 09:44:04 PM
Hi, I encountered this topic and Nicky's tatoo is quite interesting...I read it in a Japanese book (actually the book's a translation of the excerpts from Nicky's diary, the author of the book had read Nicholas's diary in Moscow around 1983-1984).

According to the book, Saigo no Russia Koutei Nicholai Nisei no Nikki[The Diary of Nicholas II, the Last Tsar in Russia ] written by Koichi Yashuda (Tokyo: Asahi Sensho, 1990)  

pp. 26
Nicholas must have known that there was an excellent tattooist in Nagasaki. As for "tatoo" there was a scene where Loti got a tatoo of peony on his chest, in a book, Okikusan written by Pierre Loti, which Nicholas had read on the day before he arrived in Nagasaki.
[...]
When I encountered this description about his tatoo, I wondered if he had kept [...] the tatoo which was done in Nasasaki as a token of his visit to Japan until he was killed in 1918 and felt surprised but quite impressed. [The image of] Nicholas got much closer to me.
 
[end of quotation from the book. Sorry for my rough translation...]

I've been wondering, if his tatoo was inspired by Loti's Okikusan...

aya-anya
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on January 16, 2006, 01:51:44 PM
Hikaru is right - even to this day your average Japanese would not normally get a tatoo as they are normally only seen on gangsters, and public baths often will not let tatooed people in. There are some other photos in that tennis sequence which show the dragon on the Tsar's arm very clearly. It is not so obvious on screen, but printed out on photographic paper you can see a big dragon stretching up the length of his forearm.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on January 16, 2006, 10:37:49 PM
Tatoo had a function of a professional mark too in Japan:
merchants, geishas had it.
Noble people never.
But in Russia, ( in Soviet Union)  mainly sailors or prisoners had it.

I think that Pierre Lotie and others began to do it seing the tatoo of the geishas .
So we could say that tatoo of Russian  tsar was an evidence and result of profondly developing cultural relations.
So the tatoo was a one  step at  the education of the Heir.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on January 31, 2006, 02:11:51 PM
No, he definately had a big tattoo of a dragon and there are a couple of photos where it is fairly clear. Strictly speaking, an orthodox believer shouldn't get tattoos - however he was young and young people are not always known for doing as they should. More than what OTMA thought about it, I wonder what the Empress thought!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: James1941 on January 31, 2006, 03:43:11 PM
I have mentioned this before. Anna Anderson,  in the late 1920s, when being questioned about what she remembered of her life as a grand duchess, mentioned that "her father" had a tattoo. This was quickly challenged by others as nonsense. The tsar had no tattoos, they countered, and this proved she was a fake. Now we see that Nicholas did have at least one tattoo. We know Anna Anderson was not the grand duchess soa person or persons who had intimate knowledge of the imperial family must have been coaching her.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 31, 2006, 09:22:34 PM
Quote
No, he definately had a big tattoo of a dragon and there are a couple of photos where it is fairly clear. Strictly speaking, an orthodox believer shouldn't get tattoos - however he was young and young people are not always known for doing as they should. More than what OTMA thought about it, I wonder what the Empress thought!


GV had a large dragon that was done while he visited Asia. Perhaps Nicholas did as well? There was a very famous tattooist who did GV as well as EVII.

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on February 01, 2006, 06:34:40 PM
I have had some of those photos of him playing tennis where the tattoo is visible printed on photographic paper. It is quite visible, and is indeed a dragon. AA could have made an educated guess, or heard about it from someone. I don't think it was completely unknown. Apparantly he finished reading Loti's Madame Chrysantheme just before arriving in Japan and was inspired to get it by that.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mie on February 02, 2006, 04:18:30 AM
Yeas. I watched those photos more accurately and there is something what could be tattoo but as well it could be rash.. :-/ I do not know... Nikolai seems tom me bee a man who took his job to be tzar full of his heart. He tried to do everything right and tried to be moral... Takin tattoo do not seems to be the first or even second thing what he could do. He was not rebel ... And yeat if he would have taken a tattoo he did it as a father too. He showed to his children that he did same things as prisoners did... :-/ I do not know.. I hope I'm not too wrong what I'm saying here and it is only my opinion. Still I want more evidence to that if he really had a tattoo. I would not be sad and dissapointed if he had one I'd be pretty eager.. :P
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on February 02, 2006, 02:31:03 PM
Well, he had it done when he was a young man - and young men are not always renowned for their forethought. Strictly speaking an Orthodox believer should not have tattoos. Maybe he regretted it later, I do not know, but seeing as he had it exposed while playing tennis with family and friends I don't think he disliked it. It wasn't so uncommon for European upperclass men to get a tattoo in those days.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on February 02, 2006, 06:35:36 PM
Quote
I have had some of those photos of him playing tennis where the tattoo is visible printed on photographic paper. It is quite visible, and is indeed a dragon.

Have those photos been printed in any book that you know of, Georgiy, or are they originals? I'd like to see them!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Versoix on February 02, 2006, 07:12:07 PM
I hope I'm not opening a redundant thread, but I did a search and have not found any information about the color of the Tsar's eyes. They were blue and luminous, and much remarked upon. Apparently Anna Anderson had much the same eye color, and this was taken as yet another proof of her identity by her partisans. The fact is, though, there are numerous shades of blue. Can anyone provide any information that would help to determine what shade "Romanov blue" or "Anastasia ble" is?

Thanks.
A.L.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on February 02, 2006, 08:23:40 PM
They are the ones which have been posted on this thread. Photographic paper just makes it a wee bit  clearer I guess. SFAIK they haven't been published in any books.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Faberge on February 03, 2006, 05:53:49 PM
For some reason, the tattoo shows up very well on my screen in two or three of the posts. I much appreciate finally seeing the dragon.

Thank you
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mie on February 04, 2006, 06:10:14 AM
Yeas they had blue eyes but it has been discussed what kind of they really were. Like them hearcolour you can not say for sure what kind of they were... :-/ If you look colorised photos they eyes is usually made more blond blue than a real blue.... maybe that color it was. My mum has really blond blue almost gray but still not -really really light color. I think that they had almost the same color..  Alix had blue eyes if I'm right -or more like gray..?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Lisa on February 17, 2006, 08:59:51 AM
Nicholas definetly had a tatoo:

Why we could not see it properly? Here my hypothesis
1: here remove it and had just a scar, so it is less visible
2: in the 19 and 20th century, because of the chimical process of the photography, some of the colors are changed in the photo. For exemple, blue looks like white and red and yellow look like black. So IF his tatoo was blue, we could not see it properly.
3: the person who developp the photograph retouched the negative in order to hide Nicholas' tatoo...

Pictures of Nicholas' right arm:
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4779/000440072wa.th.jpg) (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000440072wa.jpg)  (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4369/000640136og.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000640136og.jpg)  (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/5532/000640198cw.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000640198cw.jpg)  
Here I pushed  the contrast and you can see clearly  a tatoo!
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8643/0006401919ew.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0006401919ew.jpg)  (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8229/00094004a3ci.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=00094004a3ci.jpg)

Just to compare, here is the George V's dragon:(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/429/tatouagegeorgev4sr.th.jpg) (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tatouagegeorgev4sr.jpg)
http://www.vanishingtattoo.com/tattoo/celeb-georgehtm.htm
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on February 17, 2006, 01:14:41 PM
Lisa ! you are a genius!!!
His tattoo was a multicolor - black, red, yellow and blue!!! ( the color 's ifm according to a japanese sources)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mie on February 22, 2006, 10:45:37 AM
Lisa you made the best evidence of he had a tattoo. Now I do believe it!! :) It is obvios and in these pictures you really can see it!! Thank you! :)
Now I'm inerested to know how Alix and children and other royals felt of this!?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchessella on February 22, 2006, 06:39:08 PM
That's great Lisa! *clap, clap* They probably were touched up a bit for posterity. I don't think I've ever seen GV's either though it was detailed more in books. I love the sketch of his! Considering the colors those tattoos must've been something to see. I would've loved to have seen a photo of the two comparing them--they took several photos together when they would meet up. A 'matching tatooes photo' would be interesting.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on February 22, 2006, 09:04:19 PM
Quote
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4369/000640136og.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000640136og.jpg)

Oh goodness, I'm a dingbat sometimes! All through this discussion, I'd been focusing on the little scratch in the photo instead of the big dragon-shaped shadows all over his arm...DUH!

You're absolutely right, Lisa. Thanks for posting it in such a clear way.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Caleb on February 22, 2006, 09:35:19 PM
If you've seen the NOVA program "Anastasia: Dead or Alive?", there was some interesting things about Nicholas & Alexandra's dental health. Czarina Alexandra had quite a few fillings "probably the most expensive dental care you can imagine" they were made out of 100% pure platinum, but her teeth were in relatively good health. Czar Nicholas's teeth, uh boy, were another matter. He was actually missing many of his teeth & actually had a severe case of paradontal disease. Supposedly if he hadn't been killed when he was, he probably would have had to have his teeth pulled & have dentures made. As Dr. Maples said "One is tempted to wonder, if you're the czar, if it gives you the right not to go to the dentist as much as you should"
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: lovy on February 22, 2006, 10:29:00 PM
I heard that Nicholas's teeth were bad. I don't remember hearing of him only having a few teeth, but he did smoke. And smoking does harm to your teeth. For Alexandra, I remember reading one of her letters to Nicholas and she said that some dentist was arranging her false tooth. Maybe hers weren't very good either. After all, I did hear that she smoked delicate French cigarettes. How did people take care of their teeth back then? Probably not as intelligent as ours.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Forum Admin on February 23, 2006, 09:06:50 AM
Nicholas hated going to dentists. Remember in those days, anaesthesia was far more primititve and the tools were barbaric by todays standards. They did have and use modern style toothbrushes and basic toothpastes.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on February 23, 2006, 07:09:48 PM
Just how bad were his teeth ???
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on February 23, 2006, 11:25:46 PM
Quote
As Dr. Maples said "One is tempted to wonder, if you're the czar, if it gives you the right not to go to the dentist as much as you should"

As I recall, that comment caused a bit of fuss among some Russians. They didn't care for the implication that their tsar was perhaps afraid of the dentist.  ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: imperial angel on February 24, 2006, 08:52:20 AM
Well, I don't blame him for not wanting to go the dentist especially back then, and I don't think anyone else would either. However, he most likely would have gotten great dental care, and not doing so harmed his teeth.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Margarita Markovna on February 24, 2006, 09:02:30 PM
Quote
Just how bad were his teeth ???

Do you have FOTR? It's all in there. ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: imperial angel on February 27, 2006, 08:49:25 AM
Yes, Fate of the Romanovs has lots of details about the Romanov's, and Nicholas II including his teeth.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: imperial angel on February 27, 2006, 10:36:33 AM
Yes, it is understandable, bad teeth or no bad teeth. Doubtless, he would have had good dental care, as his family got, but the dentist is always the dentist. And things are no doubt a bit more advanced today than then, but there are not many among us who would say they enjoy going to the dentist.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Margaret on February 28, 2006, 12:16:42 PM
Hello, I am a new member.

I was just wondering if the dragon tatoo could have been selected by royal gentlemen as a nod to the Order of St. George.  Just a thought.

Thank you :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on February 28, 2006, 05:58:49 PM
Quote
I was just wondering if the dragon tatoo could have been selected by royal gentlemen as a nod to the Order of St. George.  Just a thought.

I think it's very possible.

Does the dragon figure into Japanese culture as prominently as it does in Chinese culture? If so, perhaps Nicky saw the dragon tatoo as a way to take a piece of Japan home with him.?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mie on March 18, 2006, 04:20:45 AM
How many people actually knew about this tattoo? I mean did the folk knew of it ??? (how did AA knew about the tattoo?) Did Nic. have to hid the tattoo if he was in important meeting etc.. I think it would get a lot discussion in his country and in *political*groups ...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: hikaru on March 18, 2006, 10:13:59 PM
I do not think if Nicholas thought profondly about the meaning of the symvol of the dragon.
It was just the most picturesque and exautique.
Maybe the master explained him that a dragon means the power, strenghth and fast moving.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Grand Duchess Marishka on April 17, 2006, 09:48:02 PM
Yes, yes! And of course, being the Tsar means having the ability to choose what you or your people want to do! If I were him, I probably wouldn't have gone either, as you said i_a. He probably knew what was coming and really didn't mind all that much. Maybe he figured there were other procedures, aside from the dentist's intimidating tools that would work!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: TampaBay on April 19, 2006, 04:52:50 AM
Quote
Nicholas hated going to dentists. Remember in those days, anaesthesia was far more primititve and the tools were barbaric by todays standards. They did have and use modern style toothbrushes and basic toothpastes.


However, there was no fluoride in the water.  The number one reason  for decline of dental diease in the USA since 1940 is fluoride in our water.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JD on April 21, 2006, 05:42:21 PM
Yep, fluoride is big. I don't think smoking harms dental HEALTH so much as discolors teeth.  Believe it or not this topic was actually brought up some time ago and someone suggested his habit of drinking tea with a sugar cube between his teeth might've contributed.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mazukov on May 02, 2006, 05:44:39 AM
Years ago they use to use bleach to clean there teeth to make them white again. the problem with this was it removes then Enamel from the teeth, which can cause great pain over time.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: rosieposie on May 11, 2006, 06:32:23 AM
In the book "Dead Men Do Tell Tales" by some Doctor.  (I don't remember the author) The author writes a chapter about the slaughter of the Romanovs and even goes to inspect the skeleton remains. In the photo section you can see the skulls of both Nicholas and Alexandra and from what I saw Nicholas still had a fair about of teeth even though some looked chipped or broken.  Alexandra also had some missing teeth but that could be due to the bashing of the faces when they died.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: strom on May 17, 2006, 03:22:55 PM
The Emperor's dental X-rays apparantly do not match that of the body identified by President Yeltsin's government at belonging to the Emperor.  I suspect that the Emperor's body has nor yet been found and along with that the bodies of the other members of the Imperial family supposedly killed at Ekaterinburg have not yet been incontrovertibly identified.  
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: rosieposie on May 17, 2006, 10:33:25 PM
I didn't know that they think the skull isn't Nicky's.  I am sure before they buried them that there was some technology envolved such as scanned the skulls and matching the skull with the image.   In the "Dead Men do tell tales book."  It is suggested that Nicky has the arms of his footman.  And the footman has the arms of Nicky.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Johnny on August 15, 2006, 04:08:34 PM
I heard (or read) that although at the time of the burial of the Imperial family DNA technology was already fully available, it was not used to identify the bone remains. It was all done through measurments and picture matchings etc.
Needless to say, these archaic methods did not satisfy any of the more serious witnesses to the whole procedure.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Guinastasia on August 15, 2006, 04:15:50 PM
Also, even for those who take care of their teeth, like myself, sometimes genetics play a role-I've had two teeth yanked for infections (fillings fell out, I didn't have insurance), and I need some bridgework down.  My mother had dentures when she was 18, because she ate too much candy and never brushed her teeth properly (I do, but I still get plenty of cavities). 

He was almost what, fifty?  That sounds about right.  That and he smoked, so yeah, he'd have bad teeth.  Poor guy-teeth suck.  Ever have an abcess?  If not, then pray you never do.  Worst pain EVER.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mazukov on August 15, 2006, 09:25:42 PM
DNA was indeed used. The use od DNA was not passed over. In fact
Helen Azar  has done a wonderful write up on it you can read it here
http://www.geocities.com/mushkah/Newclaims.html (http://www.geocities.com/mushkah/Newclaims.html)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Caleb on August 25, 2006, 10:16:25 PM
Didn't they compare Nicholas's DNA to that of his little brother G.D. George?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 26, 2006, 03:46:35 PM
On the doorframe where the entire family used to mark their heights. This tradition continues to this day whenever members of royal families visit the castle.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v225/helenazar/Nicky-1.jpg)



Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Grand Duchess Marishka on August 31, 2006, 05:11:35 PM
Caleb, you're right! They did. They dug George up to take samples, so I don't see how it's likely that that was not Nicholas' skull.
Although, I never was a scientist. I could be wrong, of course.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 05, 2006, 08:57:03 PM
i've noticed that Nicholas was pretty tall
he must atleast have been 5,10"

if you look at this (http://highway55.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0073/1001084.jpg) picture (so sorry for the quality) that he looks very tall


your thoughts?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Katherine The O.K. on October 05, 2006, 09:55:08 PM
Huh. I always thought Nicholas was on the shorter side- like 5'6/7 or so. Can't remember where I read it, but I know his small stature was remarked upon- there's a famous picture of him with Nikolasha and you can see how small he was- it's actually quite funny, like a boy only playing at army beside this huge viking of a man.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on October 07, 2006, 03:43:40 PM
I'm pretty certain Nicholas was no more than 5"6.  Alexandra was taller than him, and she wasn't that tall herself.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 07, 2006, 03:58:27 PM
she was taller?  :o

really?
how tall was she?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Grace on October 07, 2006, 04:27:18 PM
Comparisons have often been made between Nicholas and his somewhat look-alike cousin, King George V.  George was described as "shorter and slimmer" than Nicholas.  George was said to be 5' 6" in everything I've read on him and there didn't look to be much of a height difference between the two, so I would put Nicholas at 5' 7-8".  He was certainly not 5' 10".
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 07, 2006, 07:51:08 PM
ah ok... i think i have one of him and george, but i'm not sure its the photo your talking about
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/th_27.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/27.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Princess_Olishka on October 08, 2006, 05:02:14 AM
Nicholas, in words, I believe was smallish or just medium height. I've always wondered if he was a little shorter than Alix? I often believe that it was just Alix's hair and shoes that could have made her look a little taller. Or perhaps they were the same height? :P
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 08, 2006, 09:23:54 AM
i always thought that he was taller... but i wasn't there so i wouldn't know  :D
he was in great shape for his age, i remeber reading that he did sit ups?

thanks for the information..
HA! alix's hair!   ;D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 08, 2006, 08:48:02 PM
yes... i hope to find the clip
it was a while since i posted that, i might not even remeber what it was about
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Princess_Olishka on October 08, 2006, 08:51:11 PM
lol. well it was tied up which may have made her look taller. and she did have heels.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 08, 2006, 08:52:49 PM
to true...

i keep thinking about the hair thing, he hair did seem to climb as the older she got.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Princess_Olishka on October 08, 2006, 09:19:17 PM
if you look at pictures closely (such as this one (http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/Letya/2.jpg)), you can see that nicholas is taller. alix's hair might reach more, but that doesnt really count. it was, however, during their engagement but growth probably would have stopped by then.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on October 09, 2006, 02:56:46 AM
if you look at pictures closely (such as this one (http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m11/Letya/2.jpg)), you can see that nicholas is taller. alix's hair might reach more, but that doesnt really count. it was, however, during their engagement but growth probably would have stopped by then.

Note though that you can't see their feet.  Plus, Alexandra's shoulders are higher than Nicholas's.

Alexandra's perceived height difference to Nicholas may indeed be down to her wearing slight heels and having elaborate hair, but in most photographs Alexandra is noticeably taller than Nicholas, even when she doesn't have a hat on, or a fancy up-do.

I don't know their exact heights, but I do think Nicholas was around 5"6 and Alexandra around 5"7 or 5"8.  I read quite frequently that Nicholas didn't have the tall, strong figure of his male ancestors; he was short and slight, a real contrast to his bear-like father.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Princess_Olishka on October 09, 2006, 06:13:35 AM
I've looked at all my photographs of the two. Sometimes Alix is noticably a little taller but sometimes Nicholas. It's very hard. They were close to same height.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 09, 2006, 04:41:48 PM
yes... know i think that Alix was taller, but only by a few inches
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/th_romanov26.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/fencergirl_42/Black%20and%20%20White/romanov26.jpg)

here it definatly looks like alix was taller. and this was at the time of their engagment.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Katherine The O.K. on October 09, 2006, 06:06:59 PM
I'm quite sure Alexandra was shorter, though she appears taller- the same thing is true with my parents. Nicholas has a less willowy frame- his face is quite a bit rounder. This REALLY adds to the illusion of Alexandra being taller. My mother is 5'7, my father is 5'9: She appears MUCH taller, because a) She is taller than the average woman b) She has a thinner face and c) she has big curly hair. The same is true for A. and N., I think. You can tell Nicholas is taller when you compare the position of their faces and foreheads especially.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Princess_Olishka on October 09, 2006, 06:20:53 PM
With the picture that Emily just posted, I thought Nicholas was taller. But who knows? Maybe if they were both placed very close together, Alix could look taller. But in that photo, they are generally close. Nicholas looks an inch or two taller.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Grace on October 10, 2006, 02:25:17 AM
yes... know i think that Alix was taller, but only by a few inches
here it definatly looks like alix was taller. and this was at the time of their engagment.

She wouldn't have been a "few inches" taller than Nicholas, I'm sure.  There seemed to me very little difference in their height.  In the photo you have posted, remember Alexandra had dressed hair, a tall hat and leg-o-mutton sleeves, all which make it difficult to judge height when compared to a person standing alongside who had none of these.  In the photos I've seen of them together, taking these things into account, I would say they were about the same -- approximately 5' 7".
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 10, 2006, 09:05:52 AM
Ok, time for some fun with math & science  ;D

I copied this chart and formulas from http://www.shodor.org/succeed/forensic/romanov.html (http://www.shodor.org/succeed/forensic/romanov.html). These are the lengths of various bones identified as the Romanov's remains.

Skeleton Tandem Repeats Length of Femur (cm) Length of Humerus (cm) Length of Radius (cm)
1              9, 10                   44.79                            31.5   
2              6, 10                   37.64                            26.15   
3 (Child)    8, 10                   38.9                              27.1   
4              7, 10                   42.5                              30.0   
5 (Child)    7, 8                     38.9                              27.21                          20.34
6 (Child)    8, 10                   37.6                              26.2                            23.0
7              8, 8                     39.4                              27.40   
8              6, 9                     38.32                            26.68   
9              6, 6                     37.32                            25.92   

You can use these 3 equations to figure the approximate height of any of the bodies:

Skeleton #4 has been identified as Nicholas II, and skeleton #7 as Alexandra.

For Nicholas, the first equation gives a height of 162.56cm (give or take 3.27cm). The second equation puts him at 162.85cm (give or take 4.05cm). When you figure in the variables, his lowest possible height is 159.29cm, and his tallest is 166.9cm.

For Alexandra, the first equation gives a height of 155.182cm (give or take 3.27cm). The second puts her at 154.842cm (give or take 4.05cm). Alexandra's lowest possible height is 150.378, and her tallest is 158.892.

So, at her tallest, Alexandra was still 0.398cm shorter than Nicholas's shortest possible measurement. But since these are all approximations, there's a lot of wiggle room between the various possibilities. For example, there are 16.522cm difference between Nicholas's tallest possible measurement and Alexandra's shortest. I think we all agree that the tsar was NOT 6.5 inches taller than his wife, but it's a possibility, according to the numbers.

In short (har har) unless someone discovers a photo of the tsar and the empress standing barefoot back-to-back with her hair down, we'll never really know who was taller or shorter or by how much. I think it's safe to say that Alexandra was at least a fraction of a centimeter shorter than her husband. Nicholas may have been a relatively short fellow, but both his femur and his humerus were longer than Alexandra's by about 3cm, which indicates a taller overall height, and the equations back this up. I think it's also safe to say that they were within a couple inches of each other, but the varying heights of Alexandra's hats, hair, and high heels are likely to make it virtually impossible to figure out with any real degree of accuracy. I'd be willing to bet that because of Alexandra's wardrobe, even people who knew the imperial couple would have had a hard time telling you who was taller or shorter...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 10, 2006, 07:08:29 PM
Sarushka!
you really did your home work here!
an A++ for yoU!  :D

thank you for the information, it helps clear up alot of things!

but weren't the bodies burned, and had acid poured over them?
surely not the same bone could have survived that!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 10, 2006, 09:31:45 PM
but weren't the bodies burned, and had acid poured over them?
surely not the same bone could have survived that!
Well, that's one version of the story, but the fact is that it's virtually impossible to *completely* destroy a body with fire and/or acid in that amount of time. The bones were black and green with damage & decomposition when they were found, but they certainly hand't crumbled into ash, as one of the assassins claimed. Check out a copy of Romanovs: The Final Chapter (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=38) for more information. There's also a link to a similar book on that page.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Lemur on October 11, 2006, 01:09:35 PM
Alix was about an inch taller but her hats and shoes made her tower over him at times.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 11, 2006, 07:42:01 PM
but weren't the bodies burned, and had acid poured over them?
surely not the same bone could have survived that!
Well, that's one version of the story, but the fact is that it's virtually impossible to *completely* destroy a body with fire and/or acid in that amount of time. The bones were black and green with damage & decomposition when they were found, but they certainly hand't crumbled into ash, as one of the assassins claimed. Check out a copy of Romanovs: The Final Chapter (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=38) for more information. There's also a link to a similar book on that page.

oh really?
cool!... well not cool about the bodies thats horrible
but from one of the assassins said that.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on October 11, 2006, 10:20:05 PM
Alix was about an inch taller but her hats and shoes made her tower over him at times.
Where did you find that info? All the numbers I dug up pretty much contradict that, so I'm naturally curious.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Lemur on October 12, 2006, 09:09:18 AM
I read in some book that he was 5'7" and she 5'8". I have also seen reports that she wore flats as not to look taller than him. Also, you can see for yourself in some pictures as well as videos (check out the Tercentenery footage!!) and you can see for yourself plain and simple that she looked taller than him especially with the huge hats of the day.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Ra-Ra-Rasputin on October 12, 2006, 09:11:03 AM
I've always had the impression that Alexandra was a good inch taller than Nicholas.  I must have read it somewhere to have believed it for so long, but I couldn't say where.

Alexandra has always appeared significantly taller than Nicholas in photographs I've seen, but perhaps this is due simply to shoes and hair.  If only the condition of the bones allowed for a more definite assessment of height.  Thanks for those figures, Sarah.

Rachel
xx
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on October 12, 2006, 12:17:11 PM
I read in some book that he was 5'7" and she 5'8". I have also seen reports that she wore flats as not to look taller than him. Also, you can see for yourself in some pictures as well as videos (check out the Tercentenery footage!!) and you can see for yourself plain and simple that she looked taller than him especially with the huge hats of the day.

hm..
that seems to happen alot
the woman always seems to want to be lower

well of course you would higher that than the king..
look at Katie Holms, and Tom Cruise!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Lemur on October 14, 2006, 09:52:43 AM
I seem to remember seeing a picture from a Russian wax museum where there were height appropriate figures of Nicholas and Peter the Great. Peter appeared to be almost a foot taller and had his arm around Nicholas, whose eyes were downcast, presumably posed this way in his shame at losing the dynasty. Peter was about 6'5". It was a very graphic difference in size.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Johnny on October 15, 2006, 03:54:18 PM
I read in some book that he was 5'7" and she 5'8". I have also seen reports that she wore flats as not to look taller than him. Also, you can see for yourself in some pictures as well as videos (check out the Tercentenery footage!!) and you can see for yourself plain and simple that she looked taller than him especially with the huge hats of the day.
Lemur is right. I read the same thing. Alexandra was always described as a tall woman by her contemporaries. And as far as the average woman goes 5'8" is relatively tall, especially in those times. Nicholas, who was not tall, looked even shorter in comparison to her father and uncles. Most of the Romanovs, especially men were all above 6'. Uncle Nikolasha was about 6'4". There is a picture posted somewhere on this forum (don't ask me where) which I find very funny. In it you see a young Nicholas and Alexandra with a number of Romanov men and women lined up against a wall. The difference in height is quite incredible. Some Romanovs were so tall to the point of looking almost awkward and not attractive anymore.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: James1941 on October 15, 2006, 04:41:40 PM
At the time of their engagement Alexandera's cousin, Wilhelm II, jokingly advised her not to wear high heels as she would tower over Nicholas. I think in this case she took his advice.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: lori_c on October 19, 2006, 11:25:55 AM
In FOTR, and another book I read on Catherine the Great, bad teeth was a common trait in Russia.  Even with Dentists.  They suggested it was due to the frigid temperatures and diet - even among the IF.  Most in Russia without proper dental care would lose their teeth or as in the case of Nicky have sever periodontal disease
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: lori_c on November 10, 2006, 08:56:21 AM
Also, even for those who take care of their teeth, like myself, sometimes genetics play a role-I've had two teeth yanked for infections (fillings fell out, I didn't have insurance), and I need some bridgework down.  My mother had dentures when she was 18, because she ate too much candy and never brushed her teeth properly (I do, but I still get plenty of cavities). 

He was almost what, fifty?  That sounds about right.  That and he smoked, so yeah, he'd have bad teeth.  Poor guy-teeth suck.  Ever have an abcess?  If not, then pray you never do.  Worst pain EVER.

Not only did the environment and diet play a role in bad teeth for the tsar, but the Romanov family as well as NII mother were noted for having bad teeth.  Even WITH a dentist, periodontal disease is hard to reverse and it's a painful process.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: imperial angel on November 10, 2006, 12:22:38 PM
So was this something that was real? I think voice recordings have been covered in other places, if someone could direct me there, that would be nice. I have often wondered what their voices would have sounded like in terms of accents, etc. I know this issue has been discussed perhaps, and if so, direct me to the relevant threads.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on November 13, 2006, 09:45:51 PM
There are quite a few threads on this subject scattered throughout the forum. Here's a link to one of them:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,7280.msg220221.html#msg220221 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,7280.msg220221.html#msg220221)


An old post of mine, imported from a similar thread:
If you're talking about the clip of "God Save the Tsar" in which Nicholas's voice can be heard, I have that file. PM me with your email address if you want it. Just so I don't have to write this out more than once -- the voice you hear at the beginng is NOT Nicholas. That's someone announcing him. The same man speaks again in the middle of the clip. You'll finally hear Nicholas near the end, at 2:09, when he says "Spaseeba braht."
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: otma_gal3 on November 16, 2006, 09:45:17 PM
I was just wondering.....

Did he tend to be seriously shy at times? I think I heard one time that he didn't really like making speeches or anything like that, in front of large crowds.

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: imperial angel on November 17, 2006, 10:11:05 AM
I have read that he was shy, and of course he was a very private person. He was never the type to be a public figure, although by all accounts, he did like social life more in youth than Alexandra ever did, and that might have continued had he not married her. He prefered private life, and I suppose you could say he was shy, although not extremely.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on December 20, 2006, 09:13:24 AM
I still have the file, and I'm still happy to share it, but if anyone knows how to upload it to the web and post a link, be my guest! I'd like for the clip to be more accessible to anyone who wants it.  :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: julia.montague on December 23, 2006, 10:54:31 AM
what about www.megaupload.com
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on December 23, 2006, 08:22:21 PM
what about www.megaupload.com
The last couple times I tried megaupload, my computer got a virus!  :-\
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: GD_Sasha on December 29, 2006, 11:24:15 AM
Have you tried Rapidshare? (http://rapidshare.de/) Maybe that one will work.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on December 29, 2006, 09:27:33 PM
Thanks!

Here's a link to the file:
http://rapidshare.com/files/9479478/Golos_Nikolaiy2.mp3.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/9479478/Golos_Nikolaiy2.mp3.html)

Hope it works!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: julia.montague on December 30, 2006, 05:52:24 AM
For me it worked.
Thanks Sarushka
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Natasya on December 30, 2006, 04:36:30 PM
Do you need an account on rapidshare to download it?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: julia.montague on December 30, 2006, 05:20:21 PM
no just click on free and then wait until you can download it
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: skirt on December 30, 2006, 09:32:43 PM
whoa thanks that was great!
any idea what that clip was from? what was said??

skirt
xxxx
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on January 01, 2007, 08:32:37 PM
yes!
sarushka emailed me the link to it!

thank you again!
yes... i would like to know what he said as well!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on January 03, 2007, 07:30:53 AM
I can understand a little of it. I think the first man introduces Nicholas by his full title -- I clearly hear "grand duke," "imperial," "emperor," and "Nikolai Aleksandrovich." Then they launch into the national anthem and the chorus of "hurrahs." Near the very end, Nicholas himself says spasiba braht, which means "thank you brothers." The rest is either too fuzzy or words I don't know (mostly the latter, I must admit :-[).

My favorite is the guy who hollers "woo-hoo" in the middle of the national anthem.  ;D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Jarian on January 06, 2007, 03:04:20 PM
Yeah when he woo-hoo's it is all soft at first but then it sounds like a dying bird  ;D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 06, 2007, 05:06:56 PM
 How did you get there? it did not work,they wanted me to pay money for it when I clicked on Free. :(
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on January 06, 2007, 07:20:56 PM
How did you get there? it did not work,they wanted me to pay money for it when I clicked on Free. :(
Click on "Free" and then you have to wait a few seconds while your so-called 'download ticket' is prepared.

Now, below the 'download via' list that appears, it says "No Premium user. Please enter here." Below that there's a square full of random letters and numbers. Look at the square full of letters & numbers -- four of them will be larger and darker than the rest. Next to where it says "here" is a little blank box. Enter the four letters and/or numbers that appear in extra-large print, then hit  enter or click "Download from...." Voila!

If all you see is the "Payment-possibilities" chart, you've scrolled too far!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on January 08, 2007, 04:45:20 PM
Thank You!!! Sarushka I heard Nicholas voice even though I do understand some of it. His voice sounds like he's tired and weak. :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: grandduchess_42 on January 08, 2007, 06:46:53 PM
sarushka
thanks again for the clip!

i wish i could her the GDs voices  ::)

are there anymore clips of Nicholas with his voice being recorded?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on January 08, 2007, 09:03:42 PM
are there anymore clips of Nicholas with his voice being recorded?
I don't know for sure. This is the only one I've heard.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Raegan on February 04, 2007, 12:53:07 PM
are there anymore clips of Nicholas with his voice being recorded?
I don't know for sure. This is the only one I've heard.

I also only know of this one example of his voice being recorded. However, if anyone knows any links to any other websites that have other examples, please post them. Though I think I might be asking for the impossible here. :P
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Andrew Garton on February 11, 2007, 06:43:31 PM
Wow! I played it several times in a row! Like everyone else I wish there where more recordings! I thought I would hear a much more soft spoken person in Nicholas. I suppose thats based on what you read about him being week, soft etc. But he sounded like a men who was very sure of himself. Thanks again Sarushka :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Jarian on February 17, 2007, 05:10:34 PM
This site dosen't exist, atleast that's what I'm getting lol.
Yeah NAOTMAA.net does not exist if you read all the post Sarushka could have gave you the recording by e-mail
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on February 17, 2007, 06:38:48 PM
The link I posted is still active, and you DON'T have to pay to get the file: http://rapidshare.com/files/9479478/Golos_Nikolaiy2.mp3.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/9479478/Golos_Nikolaiy2.mp3.html)

If you're having trouble navigating your way through the free download process, follow the hints I posted in reply #27.

If all else fails, PM me.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dunya on March 16, 2007, 11:46:38 AM
I read in Russia the Great that he was a mere 5'6" tall and his Romanov uncles all seemed to tower over him. He tried to compensate for his height by working out with weights and athletic equipment. No matter what he did to build up his size he still remained slight and wiry in physique. His legs were short, but this was less apparent when he was on horseback.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on March 16, 2007, 04:06:13 PM
his Romanov uncles all seemed to tower over him.

That's quite true. One of the most well-known photos of Nicholas II and Nikolai Nikolaevich standing side by side at the front has been altered to conceal how much shorter the tsar was than his uncle.  ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Binky on March 16, 2007, 10:25:41 PM
Wow.  Did they make his uncle bend down or what?  I wonder if Nicholas rode on small horses too so he would look big.  Couldn't he put something in his boots to make him look tall when he was standing on the ground?  Louis the 14th was short and starting wearing high heels but then everyone else copied him and he was right back where he started.  When you're short I guess you just stay that way no matter what you do.  What's wrong with being short anyway?  Some people just are and its not their fault.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dunya on March 17, 2007, 12:50:03 PM
Oh, being short is not a bad thing, its just the topic question is ''how tall was he'' and he was a short person, especially compares to other members of his family, even to his wifey.

Btw I think Napoleon was very short and wearing heels too  ;) I dont think Nikolai was wearing high heels though..

Cheers  :D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dunya on March 17, 2007, 06:47:36 PM
Hello all,
I dont know if anyone has translated this, on other threads,

Transcription:

Praises, officer's commands and hoorays for 1 min 50 sec

- 1:50 Brothers (an intimate version of the word, like buddies), thank you for the glorious parade!
- (soldiers)
- 2:09 Thank you brothers (ahain, buddies) for excellent manouevres!
- (soldiers)

I recommend to watch Alexander Sokurov's Russian Ark. It features a few scenes depicting NII and his family.

Thanks for sharing, I never heard his voice.

Best wishes.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dunya on March 17, 2007, 06:48:53 PM
Forgot to add {military greetings} after (soldiers) in my previous message.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on March 17, 2007, 08:28:58 PM
Transcription:

Praises, officer's commands and hoorays for 1 min 50 sec

- 1:50 Brothers (an intimate version of the word, like buddies), thank you for the glorious parade!
- (soldiers)
- 2:09 Thank you brothers (ahain, buddies) for excellent manouevres!
- (soldiers)

Thank you Dunya! I think this is the first translation we've had of the clip.  :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dunya on March 18, 2007, 10:21:42 AM
You're welcome, it was nice to hear his voce  :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: TheAce1918 on March 20, 2007, 09:43:54 PM
I've always loved this clip...so much that I've become interested in music from the 1910's-20s and the Edison cyndrylical cans that were used in such recordings.  Hazy...fuzy...but still great!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Rodney_G. on March 24, 2007, 01:44:03 PM


  Sarushka, merci beaucoup for the link, especially since the thread -opening link was , unfortunately, worthless.
  I too thought his voice was surprisingly strong, especially the first bit. He certainly didn't come across as soft-spoken or weak; not that he could afford to be in front of fighting men.
 
   Anybody have an idea of the date or occasion of this recording?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Vasiliy on April 08, 2007, 03:24:04 AM
And where is Nickey voice ?
There are solders adn officers ...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Jarian on April 08, 2007, 09:51:54 AM
And where is Nickey voice ?
There are solders adn officers ...
I don't know the timing but his voice would be the last man that speaks alone then the soilders then the end which I think is 2:09
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on April 08, 2007, 09:53:13 AM
Yes, as I said earlier in the thread, you'll hear Nicholas's voice at 2:09, when he says "spaseeba braht."
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Jay on April 08, 2007, 01:34:04 PM
Wow!! First time I ever heard anyone of the IF voice. Not what I expected. He sounded really softspoken.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Georgiy on April 11, 2007, 09:31:25 AM
You hear him speaking twice. I don't know that I agree that he sounded soft-spoken.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: RealAnastasia on April 11, 2007, 07:51:51 PM
Humm...His voice is very agreeable, but it sounds quite firm to me, and in any way soft-spoken. In fact, I was surprised that Nicholas could have this kind of voice. But it is a very nice one.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on April 11, 2007, 08:18:15 PM
I think it's impossible to judge whether or not NII was soft-spoken based on a recording of him shouting to a large gathering of troops... :-\
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Aine on April 12, 2007, 03:31:16 AM
Quote
I think it's impossible to judge whether or not NII was soft-spoken based on a recording of him shouting to a large gathering of troops...


I agree. I also think that it may be a bit irrational to assume that because he seemed to be a generally agreeable, family man, he had a particular type of voice (i.e. quiet, shy, unassuming).


Aine
http://amaranton.wordpress.com/ (http://amaranton.wordpress.com/)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Jay on April 12, 2007, 05:30:20 PM
I think it's impossible to judge whether or not NII was soft-spoken based on a recording of him shouting to a large gathering of troops... :-\

 ;) You know, you have a good point. As an Army veteran I know how different sergeants and officers sound when speaking to a formation. Quite a different tone! Since it's the only recording that I've heard of his voice, I may have come to the wrong conclusion. I still say that it isn't quite what I expected though. I wish there were more recordings to hear so we could really come to a decisive opinion as to how he really sounded.  Thanks   :)

                                                                                                          Jay
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Vaska_Meow on April 16, 2007, 07:52:59 AM
And then the age and quality of the recording must be borne in mind.
What we have is a lifelong smoker shouting to the troops and being captured on sound equipment that was old-timey when talking pictures came into being.
It would be a miracle if Nicholas sounded anything like that in real life.

I do wish there had been more sound recordings of the family. That would be wonderful.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JLDuna on May 27, 2007, 06:08:06 PM
Wow!! I am sooo very glad that I found this forum! I was amazed at the clarity of this clip. Thank you so much for sharing it!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: charley on August 14, 2007, 05:56:54 AM
 I thought you all might like to see it. I saw the actual hair at the N&A Exhibition in Mobile, Al. I was surprised how red it was, actually I think they call it strawberry blond.

(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z247/charley1234567890/nickyII.jpg)

(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z247/charley1234567890/nickyshairatthreeyeatrsold.jpg)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dmitri on August 14, 2007, 06:54:39 AM
Most children have much lighter hair than when they become adults. That is perfectly normal.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: charley on August 14, 2007, 08:31:56 AM
Most children have much lighter hair than when they become adults. That is perfectly normal.

Yes, but all the redheads I know had red hair as children.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: anna11 on November 27, 2007, 02:36:55 PM
Ok, I have read several times on this forum that Nicholas and Alexandra, and maybe Nicholas before his marriage used contraception, mainly condoms. How exactly do we know this? What evidence is there? I'm not suggesting that you might be wrong or anything, i'm just generally curious. I've never read anything about it, apart from in Fate of the Romanovs, and that is rather questionable.  It doesn't seem like the sort of thing either of them would talk about or enter in their diaries.

Sorry if this is a silly question.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on November 27, 2007, 07:01:38 PM
I believe contraceptives were found among the imperial couple's belongings at the Ipatiev House after their murder. (I'm sorry I don't recall the source at the moment, but I don't think it was FOTR.)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on November 27, 2007, 09:52:47 PM
Some people believe the condoms didn't belong to Nicholas, that they were put there afterward. Didn't NA share a room with Aleksey, anyway?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: imperial angel on November 28, 2007, 12:43:30 AM
Yes, that was FOTR. I think this has been mentioned several times on the forum... I am not sure if those were theirs or not- it probably isn't provable. We don't know for a fact they did, and I guess the only evidence is FOTR, that is published anyway, and also the fact they had no children after the birth of Alexei in 1904, perhaps... at least, several times on the forum, that has been raised as a point. No, it isn't mentioned in their diaries, I think not all or many of Alexandra's survive, but it doesn't seem the kind of thing they would mention. I guess there is no evidence apart from Fate of the Romanovs, and the likelihood that they might have given there were no children born after Alexei.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on December 11, 2007, 09:22:59 AM
If I May  were he and  "Little K" Open about how they felt    was she his fist love  Whatever that means
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: anna11 on December 11, 2007, 09:48:37 AM
I think that means she was his first lover, because he's had crushes on other girls before that. So Fate of The Romanovs is the only source about contraception?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 11, 2007, 06:25:29 PM
I don't remember ever reading about this anywhere else but FOTR... Along with the condoms FOTR also claims that other things were found in N&A's belongings - very strange things like "pubic wigs" (?? I have no idea what that means ??), so I would take it with a grain of salt unless there is another source to back this information up... Not that it would be impossible that N & A used condoms, it's just that unless there is a reliable source that says so, I wouldn't put too much faith into it at this point...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Terence on December 12, 2007, 12:06:19 AM
I'm curious since this isn't mentioned anywhere else, what does FOTR cite as a source for this info?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet Ashton on December 12, 2007, 05:50:02 AM
If I can brielfy interrupt the whine of axes being ground, I suggest that people go to the archive of the lamented newsgroup alt-talk-royalty and search on the words "Nicholas" and "condoms" to find Bob Atchison's information on this matter. I believe some of it was posted here too, way back in 2004 when I was a regular contributor, so a brief search here might also prove of value.

I don't intend sounding snotty to anyone with a genuine interest in this matter, BTW.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: anna11 on December 12, 2007, 10:53:37 AM
Quote
lamented newsgroup alt-talk-royalty

The what? I would gladly look through it if i knew how, or what it was  :P
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet Ashton on December 12, 2007, 02:02:46 PM
Quote
lamented newsgroup alt-talk-royalty

The what? I would gladly look through it if i knew how, or what it was  :P

There you go: -

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/topics

It's the archive of one of the old Usenet Newsgroups from the 1990s, which came before these boards. I think it is still active, but mainly with trolls. It was excellent in its heyday....

There's a search box at top right, but here's the thread: -

http://tinyurl.com/ywvj7j

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 12, 2007, 02:21:15 PM
I just skimmed through the alt-talk-royalty discussion.. According to Bob A, condoms were found at the AP, in N's rooms after the family left in 1918. I wonder who or what was his source for this info? According to Marlene Koenig "it was not usual for royal couples to use birth control - since the idea was to procreate and have heirs -- and there is no doubt that Nicholas and Alexandra would have tried again to have another son because both knew that hemophilia did not pass to every son. " This last point makes sense... Again, not to say that it would have been impossible, but at the same time I would find it unlikely that the imperial couple would try to prevent the conception of another possible male heir ... And I totally can't imagine that they practiced "planned parenthood" and wasted time by using contraception before the first male heir was born... But what I can and can't imagine is irrelevant here, in this discussion it would be nice to have some reliable published sources...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 12, 2007, 05:17:51 PM
Helen, I think, in the inventories of the goods and chattels left by the IF at Ipatiev House, there were such items. Including the mysterious merkins. This is in several books and I also think on the Time Machine site itself. 
 What I think more curious, though, is that anybody really wants to know that much about their sex life?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 12, 2007, 05:59:19 PM

 What I think more curious, though, is that anybody really wants to know that much about their sex life?

Well, people tend to be naturally curious about stuff like that, but it is a little too much information if you think about it...

I'm sorry, but I have to ask, why would Nicholas and Alexandra have had merkins?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 12, 2007, 06:04:17 PM


 What I think more curious, though, is that anybody really wants to know that much about their sex life?

Well, people tend to be naturally curious about stuff like that, but it is a little too much information if you think about it...

I'm sorry, but I have to ask, why would Nicholas and Alexandra have had merkins? I find that very hard to believe...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Mazukov on December 12, 2007, 11:48:53 PM
I’m sorry but I do not see this as being relevant, what two people do behind closed doors as "man and wife" belong to them and them alone.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 13, 2007, 01:53:06 AM
I  have no idea, Helen. That subject was discussed some time back and  no one could come up with an answer, as far as I know. My guess would be sanitation, though.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet Ashton on December 13, 2007, 06:44:41 AM
I just skimmed through the alt-talk-royalty discussion.. According to Bob A, condoms were found at the AP, in N's rooms after the family left in 1918. I wonder who or what was his source for this info? According to Marlene Koenig "it was not usual for royal couples to use birth control - since the idea was to procreate and have heirs -- and there is no doubt that Nicholas and Alexandra would have tried again to have another son because both knew that hemophilia did not pass to every son. " This last point makes sense... Again, not to say that it would have been impossible, but at the same time I would find it unlikely that the imperial couple would try to prevent the conception of another possible male heir ... And I totally can't imagine that they practiced "planned parenthood" and wasted time by using contraception before the first male heir was born... But what I can and can't imagine is irrelevant here, in this discussion it would be nice to have some reliable published sources...


After 1908, Alexandra believed herself to have - or had - a heart condition, which would have made pregnancy risky, and was an incentive for avoiding it. I tend to agree about the unlikelihood of planning prgnancy BEFORE the first son, but that was not the part of the discussion that interetsde me. Were I using this inforation in a book etc I would wnat to cite Bob's exact source (one assumes inventory lists), but I see no reason to doubt his word that the condoms were actually found there....
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet Ashton on December 13, 2007, 06:47:59 AM
I’m sorry but I do not see this as being relevant, what two people do behind closed doors as "man and wife" belong to them and them alone.

In my view, it's entirely relevant, both as social history and as biographical info. Once upon a time I planned a novel on the life of Alexandra (it morphed into various articles instead) and it was while thinking of that that I first read the a.t.r. discussion with interest. That is to say, I looked up all old posts by Romanov historians for thoughts on N and A - I did not specifically trawl for info on contraception.... :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Petrushka on December 13, 2007, 07:42:37 AM
I don't know enough about Russian Orthodoxy to back this up, but I would have assumed that contraception was viewed as against doctrine.  Whilst I appreciate the Catholic church is very different, it has extremely strong views on contraception - which are often cited as out-date and inappropriate, but certainly I would image that Orthodoxy, being even more beholdent to its traditions, would be opposed to its use?  Clearly with their 'extreme' devoteness I would have thought N&A would be the last to go against this???

In fact the "Assembly of Hierarchs of the Russian Orthodox Church condemned abortion, contraception, pre and extra-marital sexual activity as reasons for the collapse of the Russian population" only last month!  It is one of the pillars of Orthodox doctrine and whilst it might seem outdated now, a century ago it would have been viewed far more seriously.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 13, 2007, 09:18:44 AM
I don't know enough about Russian Orthodoxy to back this up, but I would have assumed that contraception was viewed as against doctrine.  .... It is one of the pillars of Orthodox doctrine and whilst it might seem outdated now, a century ago it would have been viewed far more seriously.

Does anyone know if this is, in fact, the case? That may put a entirely different spin on things...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: anna11 on December 13, 2007, 11:10:35 AM
Quote
I don't know enough about Russian Orthodoxy to back this up, but I would have assumed that contraception was viewed as against doctrine.

I have read, though I have no evidence to back it up, that Orthodoxy does permit conraception under certain cases, such as a child born may be damaged or it could endanger the health of the mother. I could be totally wrong though.

And also, it's not that I want to know about their sex life particulaly. I just heard 'contraception' and it interested me, I didn't know conraception has been around that long.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 13, 2007, 11:33:28 AM
I didn't know conraception has been around that long.

Contraception has been around for centuries, way before N & A :-)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Belochka on December 14, 2007, 04:51:08 AM
I’m sorry but I do not see this as being relevant, what two people do behind closed doors as "man and wife" belong to them and them alone.

In my view, it's entirely relevant, both as social history and as biographical info.

So called "social history" tends to apply to the broader social community and the trends expressed by that community. It follows that the concept can not apply to the ruler of Imperial Russia, the Emperor and his consort.

Furthermore inclusion of such a discussion into any serious biographic study of the Tsaritsa adds nothing but titillation for the adolescent mind.

Margarita
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Janet Ashton on December 14, 2007, 12:04:05 PM
I’m sorry but I do not see this as being relevant, what two people do behind closed doors as "man and wife" belong to them and them alone.

In my view, it's entirely relevant, both as social history and as biographical info.


Furthermore inclusion of such a discussion into any serious biographic study of the Tsaritsa adds nothing but titillation for the adolescent mind.

Margarita

I'll take your word for it; it does nothing for me
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 14, 2007, 12:41:32 PM
I do not know, Margarita. We know all about the Priapian problems of Louis XVI and the real distress that caused  him and his wife, as well as the threat to the stability of the throne of France [all too sadly to no avial, however].  To me, in the case of N&A, it shows, if one is interested, that another pregnancy  would be extremely dangerous for her, yet they still had a loving, intimate relationship, that meant so much to them.  I would just leave it at that and move on to more relevent  topics to discuss.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Annie on December 14, 2007, 03:02:25 PM
Alexandra was so superstitious, she may even have felt that if she were trying for another son it meant that Alexei would die. Just a guess, no basis of course.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: AGRBear on December 14, 2007, 05:05:41 PM
Give the Empress a break!  She had five children and was in poor health. And, too, she had   the trauma of having been the carrier of hemophilia, which she gave to her only son, the  tsarevich, the male child who was suppose be her husband successor and, because of it,  she had caused  her son to suffer excruciating pain. 

All of this family and political pressure  was mentally and physically draining. Added to this was her son's screams and no one could give him relief.   

Church beliefs or not,  they, Nicholas II and Alexandra  showed some common sense in using contraception.  And,  with the possibility of the use of "merkins" and other sexual stimulus,   if true, then it seems the Empress managed to shed some of her English prudishness in the bedroom at least.  Good for her and Nicholas II.

As for a source,  I just recalled first reading about this subject some years ago here on this forum. So,  I can't help on buttoning down where this was first mentioned.

AGRBear

 
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Annie on December 14, 2007, 05:27:42 PM
I remember FA saying not to mention the 'merkins' since kids read the forum.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: anna11 on December 15, 2007, 04:56:45 AM
No, we're not allowed to talk about merkins. But where does Bob get this info about contraception? I mean everyone seems so sure, who discovered it them in AP and Ipitav house.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 15, 2007, 05:56:00 AM
Well, if any "kids" are reading this thread, and do not already know what they are, they will surely ask now. I do not get it though- kids see ads for viagra and other such products every day on tv, why should  this one be so sacrosanct?
 Anyway, the inventories of Ipatiev House were compiled  by the White Russians when they  took the place. They  ahve been published in various works, most recently that I know of is FOTR.
 I do not know for sure about the AP, but I imagine, like most palaces and other properties, inventories were taken during and after the family's expulsion by the new government. This process was explained in SAVING THE TSAR'S PALACES.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: AGRBear on December 15, 2007, 09:44:48 AM
Would have sworn I read the "m" word here just the other day.   Didn't know it's been made off limits.

Sorry.

Just eliminate it from my post, please.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: jehan on December 15, 2007, 04:28:17 PM
Well, if any "kids" are reading this thread, and do not already know what they are, they will surely ask now. I do not get it though- kids see ads for viagra and other such products every day on tv, why should  this one be so sacrosanct?
 

And it's a little odd that the kids who post here need to be protected from talk about merkins and a passionate relationship between a loving couple, yet these same kids obsess over blood and screaming and EXACTLY how people  were murdered.  Seems a bit strange.

 Just saying.....   ;-)

By the way - the admins do a great job here- it must be an often thankless task too.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 16, 2007, 01:51:09 PM
I remember FA saying not to mention the 'merkins' since kids read the forum.

Sorry I didn't know.

And it's a little odd that the kids who post here need to be protected from talk about merkins and a passionate relationship between a loving couple, yet these same kids obsess over blood and screaming and EXACTLY how people  were murdered.  Seems a bit strange.

That's a good point... Given a choice, I'd rather these kids read about merkins (whether this passionate loving couple really had them or not) than about their bloody execution... but I suppose that's just me...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Annie on December 16, 2007, 07:29:25 PM
I remember FA saying not to mention the 'merkins' since kids read the forum.

Sorry I didn't know.



It was a long time ago, maybe he's changed his mind. I just remember once a long time ago he came into a thread and said 'enough with the merkins already! Kids read this forum!'

Kids today are very worldly and wise and know quite a bit we didn't know growing up, but even I never heard of merkins. Here I was a woman over 40 before I heard of them right here on this forum and had to ask what they were *embarrassed* Were they just a fad back in those days?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: ashanti01 on December 22, 2007, 01:54:45 AM
Don't feel so bad Annie. I had no idea what that was either. And yes I do remember that thread and FA did ask that we stop discussing "M" then because there were kids who read the forum.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 04, 2008, 07:59:53 PM
Unless I missed by reading too fast, no one has mentioned that AF was 47 while she was imprisoned at impatiev house...far past the child bearing years. I can't imagine her fearing pregancy.

in terms of earlier, is there any indication when she experienced menopause? by virtue of the lifestyles in earlier times, menopause came upon women at youger ages than today, so AF may have been past her ability to reporduce even before the war. Even if not in that state, it is not easy for a 40+ year old to get pregnant.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Grace on February 04, 2008, 09:30:22 PM
While unusual, pregnancy at 47 is not impossible.  My friend's grandmother had a healthy baby (conceived naturally) at 48.  Lots of women have babies in their 40's by choice these days.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Belochka on February 04, 2008, 09:50:40 PM
Frankly I fail to see any historic merit about discussions that speak about Alexandra Fedorovna's possible ability to conceive at at a specific age or whether she at some point in time had or was experiencing menopause.

The continuation of this discussion is most disrespectful to her memory and unnecessary.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on February 04, 2008, 10:42:16 PM
You have a right to your opinion of course, but for purposes of this discussion the decision of what is disrespectful or unnecessary ultimately lies in the hands of the moderators and FA. Until such time as the management declares this topic inappropriate, interested members should feel free to continue the discussion.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Belochka on February 04, 2008, 11:13:13 PM
You have a right to your opinion of course, but for purposes of this discussion the decision of what is disrespectful or unnecessary ultimately lies in the hands of the moderators and FA. Until such time as the management declares this topic inappropriate, interested members should feel free to continue the discussion.

A poster should be able to express their opinion that a thread is considered to be inappropriate for public discussion. Thank you for your imput in this matter.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 05, 2008, 11:03:30 AM
You have a right to your opinion of course, but for purposes of this discussion the decision of what is disrespectful or unnecessary ultimately lies in the hands of the moderators and FA. Until such time as the management declares this topic inappropriate, interested members should feel free to continue the discussion.

A poster should be able to express their opinion that a thread is considered to be inappropriate for public discussion. Thank you for your imput in this matter.

This thread is 3 pages long and the subject of birth control is completely related to fertility. So, I am hard pressed to understand why it would be disrespectful to discuss AF's fertility if we are openly talking about their use of condoms, etc.

Anywho, it still seems bizarre that a 47 year old woman in 1918 in prison would be concerned about birth control. Further, it seems somewhat preposterous that Nicky and she would have the time, place, and disposition to be that intimate under the circumstances. So, the discovery of condoms in impatiev house could almost certainly not be the royal couples, imo.


Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2008, 12:47:27 PM
Anywho, it still seems bizarre that a 47 year old woman in 1918 in prison would be concerned about birth control. Further, it seems somewhat preposterous that Nicky and she would have the time, place, and disposition to be that intimate under the circumstances. So, the discovery of condoms in impatiev house could almost certainly not be the royal couples, imo.

I thought about that too, actually, and I tend to agree that there is a possibility that they may have belonged to someone else. But the claim is that they were found among other personal belongings. I guess we'll never know.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on February 05, 2008, 10:03:59 PM
I tend to agree with Helen.  Didn't I read somewhere that the doors to the rooms had been removed?  No privacy there.  And by 1918, Alix was a total wreck from taking care of Alexei and from the abdication and the "deprivations" of forced imprisonment.

Maybe its just me, but I can't imagine needing or wanting to worry about merkins or any other of the intimate items supposedly found in the personal effects of the imperial couple while living under those circumstances.

And 47 is a little young for full menopause.  It is more likely to begin around age 50 and then can last for years (or what feels like centuries).

But from 1904 on and the birth of Alexei, there were no more children for Alix and Nicky.  However they accomplished that has died with them.  So for 14 years until their deaths, they were still a loving and devoted couple, but no more children.

And why does anyone want to know about all of this anyway?  I would not have thought twice about it if it hadn't been posted here.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 05, 2008, 10:44:57 PM

And why does anyone want to know about all of this anyway?  I would not have thought twice about it if it hadn't been posted here.

Same with me. One of those questions that Barbara Walters would ask that the rest of the world sort of rolls their eyes. but, if asked, I guess we have go jump in. Quite frankly, I never even heard of merkins before and did not realize condoms were available at that time. Me and my miiddle class morals..... :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on February 05, 2008, 11:15:22 PM
Herrkaiser:

You and me both!  Middle class and ignorant of a lot of things, I guess.  I first heard of the merkins here at the APF and I still can't imagine why a close and loving couple would even bother with them.

As to other types of contraception, other than the "rhythm method", I don't know what Victorians knew about or used.  But from the transmission of STDs, I don't think they knew too much.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: anna11 on February 06, 2008, 12:15:19 AM
I'm pretty sure condoms have been around since the mid-late 19th century, and were available to people who wanted to use them. Of course most people didn't because of religious/moral reasons but they were certainly around.

Ok, repetition I do not have any interest in NAs sex life. I just hear people talking about contraception and I wonder what is the source?  Why do people say so when there's actually no 'evidence' at all?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: imperial angel on February 06, 2008, 02:47:37 AM
There are other threads that touch on this topic as well, which speaks to some interest. Back in those days, being interested in such matters wasn't done in public. In private, it still seems to have been hushed up. Nowadays, people are naturally curious about these things,even about people who lived in an age with different standards about them, which is to be expected. Due to the lack of frankness about these sorts of matters back then, they tend to be not well documented, so it is hard to say, and much can never be said with certainty. In some ways, it would be interesting to know about them personally, or about how their personal habits in matters such these reflected those of the general populaion, or the upper classes, etc. In other ways, it is a matter they would have considered private, and indeed the silence even in private documents about things like contraception speaks to that.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on February 06, 2008, 08:22:29 AM
Just for a different approach.  The Victorians weren't too concerned about contraception because they expected to have many children.  It was the result of "a married life".  They accepted it as a part of their existence.

And for those poor women who were seduced and abandoned, they had no rights and could not sue for paternity or child support, they would have been laughed out of court (if they ever got into court).  That is why orphanages were much more prevalent than they are today.  And remember, too, that men could treat their wives anyway they wanted.  Wives were property.

Knowing about contraception and doing anything about it are two very different things.  A loving and caring couple saw their love grow with a large family.  Even the biggest "prude" of all Queen Victoria herself had nine children and Albert died young!

Even when told by doctors that the mother's health was in jeopardy if she were to have another child, the couple often went ahead anyway and looked at the mother's death as "the will of God".  I am not saying that the husband and family didn't mourn the loss of a beloved mother, just that it was very common and if they knew that a birth control device was available and that using it could save her life, they still didn't use it.

And I am sure that they didn't make the connection that a condom could prevent the transmission of STDs because medicine was still in its infancy and how and why diseases were transmitted was a mystery to most.

This thread is about Nicholas and whether or not he used contraception.  Some of the items in the Ipatiev House inventory were not contraceptives, but (pardon me FA) enhancements.  At least that is my understanding of a merkin.

Someone - anyone - help?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: HerrKaiser on February 06, 2008, 10:16:32 AM
Just for a different approach.  The Victorians weren't too concerned about contraception because they expected to have many children.  It was the result of "a married life".  They accepted it as a part of their existence.


Yes, indeed, plus they wanted large families because children often succumbed to disease and died. It was not uncommon for a family to tragically experience the loss of more than one child. In addition, families needed a number of children to either work the farm or work out of home to earn money. It was a tough life; and the more kids the more likely a family would prevail in reasonably good stead.

Even when told by doctors that the mother's health was in jeopardy if she were to have another child, the couple often went ahead anyway and looked at the mother's death as "the will of God".  I am not saying that the husband and family didn't mourn the loss of a beloved mother, just that it was very common and if they knew that a birth control device was available and that using it could save her life, they still didn't use it.


I didn't realize this, but I can believe it. The most memorable example is Melanie Wilkes!  ;)

The flip side of this that I know is the case is that the Catholic Church always followed the path of "save the baby". Catholic hospitals, for example, would always, in the birth rooms, focus on the delivery of the baby and often to the loss of the mother. Now (I think..is it true?) the mother's life takes priority in a 'one or the other' horrible situation.

Some of the items in the Ipatiev House inventory were not contraceptives, but (pardon me FA) enhancements.  At least that is my understanding of a merkin.

Someone - anyone - help?

No help from me on this one...I still can't figure out what a merkin is...I thought it was a wizard of some sort; a merlin? And QV thought nursing was disgusting!

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 06, 2008, 01:09:42 PM
Must I explain this yet again? A merkin is simply a pubic wig.. it was and still is, used  much as a sanitary device. FA may well delete this post  but that is it.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on February 06, 2008, 01:22:53 PM
Ah, Robert, to the point as always.

Sanitary? (I also can not picture....well, enough)  I had not known that. 

I just thought it was cosmetic and that is why I called it an enhancement.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: PhantomAlexei on April 27, 2008, 03:56:47 PM
Hey, everyone, I just arrived here and have enjoyed your threads. To my chagrin though, I have not been able to get the rapidshare file to work. I have followed the instructions, but it just says "error" every time. If anyone has it saved, and is able to email it to me, I would be vastly appreciative. Thanks!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Laura Mabee on April 28, 2008, 08:55:29 AM
I understand, sometimes Rapidshare deletes files if they are not downloaded over time.
This happens to me all the time when I am looking up files. Thanks though, Sarushka was awesome to have shared it for so long!

Here is a permanent link to the audio file:
http://www.na.frozentears.org/NikolaiyV.mp3

Edit: It seems that the Rapidshare link still works, at least for me.... Hmm.. Odd. Well, at least we now have two ways to get the file?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on April 28, 2008, 10:02:39 AM
Thanks Laura!

It'll be so nice to finally have that clip in an accessible, permanent, and easy-to-use location.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: PhantomAlexei on April 28, 2008, 02:09:15 PM
That's fantastic! Thanks so much for sharing!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik on May 13, 2008, 06:19:49 PM
This is wonderful.  As Dunya kindly translated this excerpt, I was surprised by the choice of word "brothers" or even a more familiar form of brother, like 'buddies'.  Can anyone comment on typical military language of that time period?  Is this Nikolai's famous humility at play?  I ask because his sister Olga said that her father used the term "Good, Children" at reviews.  (chorosho, rebiata)  Such a juxtaposition of Paternal vs. Fraternal language.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JesseM on May 21, 2008, 08:39:06 PM
This is wonderful.  As Dunya kindly translated this excerpt, I was surprised by the choice of word "brothers" or even a more familiar form of brother, like 'buddies'.  Can anyone comment on typical military language of that time period?  Is this Nikolai's famous humility at play?  I ask because his sister Olga said that her father used the term "Good, Children" at reviews.  (chorosho, rebiata)  Such a juxtaposition of Paternal vs. Fraternal language.

I'm a history buff/student, and I know a fair bit about the First World War (it's one of my favourite topics  :D). I'd really love to know if this clip is some sort of propaganda clip or if it is genuinely from some sort of military parade. If it's real, the soldiers would have been pretty fortunate to even see someone as high-up as the Czar. Nicky's cousin, George V visited his troops every now and then, usually after some sort of significant event, as part of an official ceremony or something, but it was still somewhat rare (although I think George probably made more visits than most other leaders). As far as his voice is concerned, or his diction, I think it's different from country to country, leader to leader. A leader obviously might try to relate to his soldiers by using terms like 'brother', or 'buddy', although back them I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have actually used something like 'buddy', at least the English leaders probably wouldn't have.

I think as someone already mentioned, for a life long smoker projecting his voice, it's not the best scenario to get a solid impression of how he really sounded. But personally, just hearing that, I think I can imagine what he would have been like in person. It's funny, I see all these pictures of him, and picturing the occasion in the photo, I used to never think of him having any sort of heavy Russian accent at all :P. I guess I do that naturally though because it's not really an accent I hear on a daily basis. Trying to think of any of the GD's speaking in Russia is extremely difficult for me, I have to think in English, although I have a lot of Serbian friends, so I just use one of their female voices to substitute. Maybe I daydream a little too much  :-[ :P.....
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: brainy1000 on May 24, 2008, 11:42:04 PM
Hello to all. This is my first post. For Many years I've been studying the Romanovs saga in particular, and I'm really glad to be here.
I must confess that this recording filled me with doubts. I don't know if I'm missing something here, but I really want to know the source from where it came from. Other aspect: the voice of the 'commander' seemed to me to belong to the same man; in other words, I could not distinguish, after many hearings, two different voices, being, if the case, one of them Nicholas'. Another very strange issue was 'Nicholas' adressing the troops in coloquial terms. It's very difficult to imagine the Tsar Of All Russias, even being a gentle man he was, not obeying the protocols, saying "thanks, brothers". Maybe this recording came from a ceremony to which Nicholas was present, or was mentioned, but did not speak, at least in this recording.
Thanks and please, be patient with my English, as this is not my mother language.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JesseM on May 25, 2008, 12:21:11 AM
Welcome to the forums, although I'm still fairly new too  :P. I can only speak English, and have a basic understanding of German, so I'm sorry if you can't understand anything I ever say.

I think it's probably real, I mean, even in that day and age, I have a hard time believing someone as important as Nicholas II wouldn't have been caught on tape at some point. I just think it was probably edited to be some sort of propaganda type thing. It seems edited, but to be honest, I really have no idea what the technology for such things was like back then, whether or not radio was really a big thing yet with a lot of people. I think because I want to say I've heard Czar Nicholas II's voice, I'll just trust that it's real  :D.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: brainy1000 on May 25, 2008, 01:54:05 AM
Hello Jesse, thanks for the welcome. This speech was probably recorded using those Edison Cylinders. I do agree with you: is hard to accept that Nicholas never had his voice recorded, but as I said before, the point is: I did not recognize two (different) men speaking here. The voice in the recording is absolute the same to my ears.

The Edison cylinders in those days, were considered a curiosity, not a 'serious' media. Lots and lots of cylinders, were lost due to inadequated storage and handling, etc. I suspect that there is a slim chance of a real recording of Nicholas or family be found.

Anyway, I'm still curious about the origin of this recording. Any hint?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JesseM on May 25, 2008, 12:56:32 PM
I can hear two different voices. They're not very different, but the first one is slightly higher pitched than the one believed to be Nicky. I have extremely good hearing and I can pick apart sounds really well (it's kind of a curse though, since I'm also a light sleeper  :( ). I'd also like to know where this clip comes from, in terms of the event itself, but also who put it up on the internet and labeled it Nicholas II?

I don't think it's out of the question he would address soldiers as "brothers". Someone translated it, and from what is being said, it's believable enough that it's real. I can't think who else would have been thanking a crowd for a "glorious parade" and "excellent maneuvers".
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 25, 2008, 02:15:14 PM
Anyway, I'm still curious about the origin of this recording. Any hint?

I am wondering about that too. Just heard the recording for the first time. They do play "God Save the Tsar", but it does not necessarily mean that this is the Tsar's voice. And yes, this person is addressing the troops, but that could be someone else too... Hard to make out exactly what the person is saying, I can understand Russian but can't make out a lot of it. Will try to hear this again at home and see if I can figure it out.... I was wondering if this has been authenticated as NII's voice?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on May 25, 2008, 03:16:54 PM
The beginning of the thread gives the original link as NATOMAA.net, which is now defunct. Also early on in the thread, FA gives a link to an even older thread on the topic; unfortunately that link was broken when the forum software was updated a year or more ago. I ran a search and presume this is the thread he was referring to:

Voice recordings (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,56.30.html)

In that thread, Bob Atchison refers to "the well-known recording of his voice addressing the troops that survives." It further appears from the same post that Bob planned to put the recording on the APTM site. So clearly, he believes it's authentic. Perhaps a PM to Rob or Bob would uncover the full provenance of this recording.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen on May 25, 2008, 03:40:43 PM
Another very strange issue was 'Nicholas' adressing the troops in coloquial terms. It's very difficult to imagine the Tsar Of All Russias, even being a gentle man he was, not obeying the protocols, saying "thanks, brothers".
I don't know anything about forms of address in the Russian army before 1917, but according to http://www.rastko.org.yu/istorija/sanu/Europe/SERBIA.html , 'brothers' or 'heroes' were customary forms of address in the Serbian army in 1914, "from the King himself to the last of his 'brothers' in the ranks". 
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on May 26, 2008, 11:08:00 AM
Hi all,

I am currently doing a sound engineer course and wondered if it would be of any use to you if I cleaned up the soundtrack a bit? For me it would be very interesting and would not take very long. Let me know if you think this is a good idea

Michael HR
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: JesseM on May 26, 2008, 01:18:55 PM
Hey Mike, I think that's a fantastic idea, and would be very much appreciated from a lot of people here!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 26, 2008, 08:20:12 PM
Mike> That would be wonderful if you would.

All> The recording of Nicholas II came from the album "Царь Николай поёт Жанна Бичевская/ Tsar Nicholas - Singing by Zhanna Bichevskaya". (Information can be found here (http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/77631/) and here (http://www.artistka.ru/nik.html)). It's track 12.  I do not know where the recording originally came from, as in, I have no idea where she found it to put on her album, but.. that's where I originally found the recording outside of the AP. (A special thanks to Koloagirl for the CD)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Holly on May 27, 2008, 01:30:36 PM
So can we be fairly certain that this is indeed Nicholas' voice?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 27, 2008, 04:38:09 PM
Thanks, everyone. So many interesting things that I wouldn't even suspect still exist can be found here! I didn't know there was an album that Laura mentions which includes this soundtrack.

Mike, it would be great if you could clean up the soundtrack so that we can decipher the entire thing. Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Kransnoeselo on June 12, 2008, 11:04:49 AM
It had been mentioned in this thread that Anna Anderson had stated that her "Father" (Nicholas II) has tatoos on his arm, and that this was used as a piece of evidence in her favor. 

In fact AA insisted that the Tsar had NO tatoos on his arms.  When asked how she knew she replied that she had seen her father's arms when he rowed his family in row boats and that there were no tatoos.  So in fact if there had been a tatoo (Which is now pretty apparent) this would be yet another mark against AA's claim.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: sgc on July 13, 2008, 07:14:08 PM
Just my opinion as a military veteran on active duty from 1970-1981: after hearing the recording, I'd venture to guess the individual doing the speaking is probably an experienced NCO drill instructor or possibly a field-grade commander of some sort. I say this particularly because of the rhythmic way his troops are sounding off back to him in response to his voice. Don't know if what we have here is indeed an authentic recording of Nicholas II, although I'd sure like to believe it is. However, I'll say one thing:  if this was really Nicky, the man certainly comes across as a lot more assertive then he's been given credit for!
                                                                                                         
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: amartin71718 on July 14, 2008, 09:46:21 PM
This is a really random question, but did Nicholas snore?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Lalee on July 15, 2008, 12:07:53 AM
I've never heard of him to do so.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: amartin71718 on July 22, 2008, 04:24:48 PM
Hey, it's possible he did or that he didn't. I'm just curious.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on July 22, 2008, 05:00:54 PM
I don't suppose any one will know now. Not something the Empress would talk about and she would be the one to know.

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: nena on July 22, 2008, 07:26:39 PM
Interesting question, Marty...I've never heard something, too........
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on July 23, 2008, 05:27:08 AM
Mind you the way I snore you could hear me in Tsarkoe Selo or so I am told...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Russka Princess on July 23, 2008, 09:33:58 AM
f course he has snore, like all mans. but i think Alix has snore too, mabe not so laud, but she has does.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: amartin71718 on July 23, 2008, 05:37:36 PM
Not nessessarily. my dad snores but my brother doesn't.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on July 30, 2008, 02:05:21 AM
More men snore than women, and you're more likely to snore as you age. It can be brought on by stress, so it wouldn't surprise me if N&A both snored during the war!


But we're very unlikely to ever know.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: tom_romanov on July 30, 2008, 10:22:10 AM
More men snore than women, and you're more likely to snore as you age. It can be brought on by stress, so it wouldn't surprise me if N&A both snored during the war!


But we're very unlikely to ever know.


gosh if they both snored due to stress then the window panes must have rattled in their frames. :)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on August 05, 2008, 05:00:52 PM
his voice seemed deeper than I Imagined  how interesting wonder what his English sounded like as good as The Prince of Wales?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on August 05, 2008, 05:38:33 PM
I have read that his English was impeccable, to the point that he could be mistaken for a native. (Darned if I can remember where I picked up that tidbit though!)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Laura Mabee on August 08, 2008, 04:38:33 PM
I think it's been said in Nicholas and Alexandra by Massie.
I think... I've heard that before too, my best guess is Massie.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Condecontessa on August 08, 2008, 10:38:18 PM
Would Nicholas II dragon tattoo's claw be accorded to his imperial status? I remember watching something on History channel about the number of dragon claws are reserved for royalty back then and an emperor's son can only have 4 dragon claws and an emperor 5 I believe. A mere commoner can only 2 and an aristrocat 3 claws. Can anyone verify or elaborate more on this matter?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Lalee on August 09, 2008, 05:08:33 AM
I also think I remember it from Massie's Nicholas & Alexandra.
I think I might have also read it from The Romanovs: Love, Power & Tragedy...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: James_Davidov on August 21, 2008, 09:30:30 PM
It is safe to presume that NII did in fact snore (at least occasionally).  For one he was a man of a certain age and it is a common trend, secondly he was a smoker which would have added respiratory issues (inflaming the likelihood) thirdly (among other issues) he was an all empowering autocrat, a role that would be likely to cause a little snore related grief.

On the other hand, he was a very fit man, and he shared a bed with AF… I believe if NII was keeping AF awake something would have been done about it (particularly given AF’ frail health) on the other hand I don’t believe AF would have permitted to separate quarters and lost that avenue of control… and her interrupted sleep with NII could explain why she spent so much of her day lounging in her boudoir, lol.

Also there would have been many opportunities for people to observe that the emperor snored, throughout his life, with the multitude of servants, officers, guards, diplomats and relatives he would have encountered at home and abroad, some of them would have had an opportunity to press ear to thinned palace wall and presumably report in writing to someone.

Given this, its likely to presume that NII did indeed snore, but it was probably occasional, and nothing to write home about, I think anyone receiving the news that Nicholas II snored would have been a bit disappointed that a presumed habit was the only tid bit one was able to report.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: StevenL on August 22, 2008, 06:32:15 AM
It is safe to presume that NII did in fact snore (at least occasionally). 

Poor Nicholas - I'd imagine it was his unhealthy, puffy, ever-complaining wife
as the congested drooling snorer in the Imperial Bed!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: katherine2001 on August 24, 2008, 02:45:02 PM
Both men and women snore.  My mother told me that both of her parents (my grandparents) snored and then would argue about which woke the other up!  It wouldn't surprise me at all if Nicholas II snored.  I would be interested in knowing whether he did.  He was a smoker also, and I think that can affect whether a person snores too.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on September 03, 2008, 01:03:32 PM
Smoker? The man was a chimney from what I have read here on the boards. 
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 02, 2008, 03:46:07 PM
Hiya!

here s the click to hear his voice

http://www.na.frozentears.org/NikolaiyV.mp3


;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on October 03, 2008, 02:24:43 AM
it doesn't sound like its him. seems like its informal? If thats the right world. he sounds way too confident and tough to be Nicolas. how do we know its him again?

btw, thanks for the link :D
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Nemos on October 05, 2008, 08:51:46 AM
http://narod.ru/disk/2996595000/1904-1906_%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA%20_%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%B9_%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0.pdf.html

Все официальные речи Государя Императора за 1904-1906 года, тексты ...
All official speeches of the Sovereign of the Emperor for 1904-1906, texts...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: nena on October 06, 2008, 08:00:08 AM
It says, List of Emperor;s words/speechs for years 1904-1906.  ;) And, as far I undersatnd, you have to enter those numbers for download.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Nemos on October 06, 2008, 08:20:55 AM
Там файл в формате PDF, с тектом на русском языке всех официальных речей Государя Императора за 1904-06 года.
There a file in format PDF, with the text in Russian all official speeches of the Sovereign of the Emperor for 1904-06.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on November 04, 2008, 09:48:05 AM
Attention:  "Michael HR" :    In your previous posts #s  67 and 73, you mentioned that you would possibly attempt to "clean up"  the recording of what is said to be the Emperor Nicholas II's voice.  If you were indeed able to try such, what were your results?   Kind regards, AP
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on November 05, 2008, 09:05:37 AM
Will dig it out and post. Sorry I forgot... :(
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on November 08, 2008, 11:40:18 AM
Thank you!   I appreciate your response to my inquiry.   AP
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on November 09, 2008, 05:30:10 AM
Have file but not sure how to get it to the forum?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on November 09, 2008, 10:59:22 AM
Sorry, but I am not technically advanced enough to advise you as to the process.  I am certain that others will be able to help.   AP
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Peterhof on November 09, 2008, 03:04:12 PM
Michael HR,

Could you e-mail it to me.  Also, we'd really appreciate if Laura could post it in frozentears.org
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Gran Duquesa Anastasia on November 10, 2008, 05:30:38 AM
All the voices is it?
Alone I distinguish a voice
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Laura Mabee on November 15, 2008, 08:48:38 AM
Hey Guys!
Thank you Michael HR for taking the time to email me the file! It does sound much more cleaned up!
I too have trouble distinguishing the first voice from the last, but I had that problem before the clean up.

Without further ado, here is the file:
(Right Click>Save As!)
http://www.na.frozentears.org/NicholasII.mp3 (http://www.na.frozentears.org/NicholasII.mp3)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Erika on November 15, 2008, 06:13:42 PM
Wow! I was a little bit surprised that that was Nicky. His voice is not at all as I imagined it. It is much darker - but I like it! It is amazing that this recording has been preserved!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: nena on November 16, 2008, 06:41:36 AM
Voices of all members of IF has been saved. But, they're lost, as far I know.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Proud_Olga on November 17, 2008, 12:19:16 PM
So sad, I'd love to hear all their voices !!
Since when they have been lost ? Does anyone know ?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: nena on November 17, 2008, 12:30:00 PM
Voices were recorded and sent to Dowager Maria Feodorovna. What happened to them, I don't know.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik on November 17, 2008, 03:13:04 PM
Thanks very much for this link.  Anyone clever out there who knows about military procedures back then?  It would be possible to merge images of reviews, Nicholas, etc, to give a visual sense of what is happening in the dialogue.  But first we would have to be sure which voice is the Tsar's.  Does he speak only at the end, or is that his voice also halfway through?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Rodney_G. on November 17, 2008, 04:51:09 PM
This version is somehow better than the original AP link. Thanks to those who achieved this. Now, is it too much to ask what was being said? I think I got about six, seven words the first time through.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on November 17, 2008, 05:17:50 PM
So sad, I'd love to hear all their voices !!
Since when they have been lost ? Does anyone know ?

The recordings were made by the Edison company.

I would presume they were lost during the revolution.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Lalee on November 17, 2008, 10:38:17 PM
Is that Nicholas's voice throughout the entire clip?

Thank you so much, Laura!!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on November 18, 2008, 02:26:11 AM
I used some audio restoration software, EQ's, compression and reverb through Logic to clean up the sound. Also made it into a stereo file and hope you all like it.

Mike

This version is somehow better than the original AP link. Thanks to those who achieved this. Now, is it too much to ask what was being said? I think I got about six, seven words the first time through.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on November 18, 2008, 02:27:36 AM
I think the first is the Army person introducing Nicholas as you hear him say Nicholas Alexandrovich at some point. Then Nicholas then the singing and then I think NII again but I may be wrong.

Is that Nicholas's voice throughout the entire clip?

Thank you so much, Laura!!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Sarushka on November 18, 2008, 08:37:06 AM
Is that Nicholas's voice throughout the entire clip?

Nope. Nicholas speaks twice, near the end. Here's a translation from earlier in the thread that tells exactly when Nicholas speaks, and what he says:


Transcription:

Praises, officer's commands and hoorays for 1 min 50 sec

- 1:50 Brothers (an intimate version of the word, like buddies), thank you for the glorious parade!
- (soldiers)
- 2:09 Thank you brothers (ahain, buddies) for excellent manouevres!
- (soldiers)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Lalee on November 18, 2008, 05:37:06 PM
Thank you, Sarushka!!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Jebediha on November 21, 2008, 05:20:58 PM
I think i have Nicholas voice on a cd. It is a cd
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: amartin71718 on November 21, 2008, 05:35:00 PM
I put the recording on my iPod.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on November 29, 2008, 03:51:25 PM
Amm if someone had Nicky's voice could you post it again....Pleaseeee
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 29, 2008, 03:57:17 PM
Click here (http://www.na.frozentears.org/NicholasII.mp3), Irina ;-)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on January 09, 2009, 04:51:18 AM
Click here (http://www.na.frozentears.org/NicholasII.mp3), Irina ;-)

Thank you! :)

This is the first time that I listen to the voice of Nicholas, he had a beautiful baritone voice.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Michael HR on January 09, 2009, 05:23:36 AM
If anyone has any vocals that they need cleaning up let me know. Sometimes enhancement and restoration can make a big difference.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: romanov1918 on January 10, 2009, 02:56:25 PM
Click here (http://www.na.frozentears.org/NicholasII.mp3), Irina ;-)

Thank you, I have been looking for this......funny, but I didn't imagine him having such a strong voice. I wish there were recordings of the whole family.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: nena on January 11, 2009, 08:41:22 AM
I think recordings of whole IF existed, but they are lost. I think they were sent to Empress Marie Feodorovna. Count Voeikov says that Emperor's voice was strong and very deep and fine. Man would listen him for hours -- he said.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on April 24, 2009, 09:51:22 PM
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k14/Livadia13/nIImonogram.jpg)  It looks like a sideways H for Nicholas and an up right A and an upside down A - ?  I don't know who the two As would be for.  Unless it was for Alexander II and Alexander III?  I have seen the combined monogram of Nicholas And Alexandra and that is an up right H with a II under it and an A sitting right on top of the H.



Monogram bookplate of Emperor of Nicholas II.

Photographic Services & Permissions

The libraries of twenty-six individual members of the Romanov dynasty, as well as volumes bearing the markings of nine imperial palaces, are represented in the collections of The New York Public Library. However, the majority of the books, manuscripts, watercolors, and original photographs selected for this exhibit were primarily the property of five Romanovs: Alexander II, Alexander III, Nicholas II (and his immediate family), and the Grand Dukes Vladimir Aleksandrovich and Konstantin Konstantinovich, the brother and cousin, respectively, of Alexander III.

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: RomanovsFan4Ever on April 25, 2009, 09:47:34 AM
I'm not sure, but it could be exactly the initials of his predecessors, his grandfather Alexander II, and his father Alexander III...I don't think that the initial of Alexandra is included here...
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on April 25, 2009, 12:06:31 PM
That is what I think, too.  After I did some research, I found that it was said to be a compilation of initials of the three tsars.  It is interesting, though, that Nicholas II was still using that monogrammed paper when writing to the Queen of Roumania so many years later.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on April 25, 2009, 12:46:55 PM
Hummm.....How about "Nicholas Alexandrovich (and) Alexandra, " as a conjoined monogram on PERSONAL stationery?  (I, myself, do NOT think it represents three Emperors.)  The use of this conjoined monogram for personal, as opposed to official correspondence, would explain why it was used in writing to the Queen of Roumania.)  Regards,  AP
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 25, 2009, 01:33:20 PM
Just as good a conjecture as any. The  cyphers/logos can be  like jigsaw puzzles. My input, just forr the fun of it- Victoria Alix Hesse. The sideways H is not a cyrillic N.  And the crown is not the usual  Imperial Russian. Could be Grand Ducal Hesse ?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on April 25, 2009, 04:12:25 PM
Interesting observations, Robert!  But though there are different "takes" on the Imperial Russian Crown, I maintain that this IS a depiction of it, though not in the more "upright-elongated" style.  It certainly shows the diamond "sprays," the pearl edging of the "mitre" divisions and the correct finial that you and I have both observed in person.  As for the Cyrillic "H" being sideways, neither would a Latin "H" (fitting your conjecture for "Hesse") be properly sideways! I believe it to be artistic liicense of the design. Also, I'm not certain that a "Grand Ducal" crown would have a "closed" design. I think that if your check the Hesse arms, you will find that it carries an "open" topped crown/coronet of the so-called heraldric "strawberry leaves " (similiar to the British "ducal" one), since a closed crown would usually indicate a larger sovereign entity. There's a good display of international, etc. crowns on Wikipedia under "Crown (Heraldry)", including a twin of the illustration of the Russian Imperial Crown in this thread.   But......I have just consulted another source and have the identification now.  Please see my next post.   Regards,  AP
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on April 25, 2009, 04:22:55 PM
My source called it

Monogram bookplate of Emperor of Nicholas II.

My source is the New York Public Library.

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on April 25, 2009, 04:31:51 PM
Attention for those interested in the crowned monogram depicted in  "Alixz"'s post, number  457  .  The EXACT crowned monogram (including the "side-ways"  "H" ) in gold printing is shown in Illustration # 445, page 270, in the exhibition catalogue, " Nicholas and Alexandra," Wilmington, Delaware exhibition of 1999.  The monogram tops a handwritten "Letter from Tsarevich Nikolai Alexandrovich to Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich, 25 September 1891, Fredensborg, Denmark."  It is kept in GARF 645. There are numerous other examples of this monogram in different colors, such as illustrations 448, "Letter from Tsarevich Nikolai Alexanderovich to Princess Alix of Hesse (Dec. 17, 1893, written at "Gatchina, near St. Petersburg "), also # 451, 457, etc., etc.     THUS, I DO agree with "Alixz" that it is indeed a monogram of the Emperor Nicholas II, undoubtedly used most often/exclusively as Tsarevich.      Best regards,    AP
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on April 25, 2009, 04:55:50 PM
Then perhaps it is as sideways H for Nicholas and a upside down A for Aleksandrovich and an up right A for his father Alexander III showing that he was still Tsarevich.

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: nena on April 25, 2009, 05:05:23 PM
I can see 'M' letter too - Marie (Feodorovna) maybe? Am I correct? As a symbol of MF, AIII and NII.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 25, 2009, 05:25:11 PM
You are probably the closest to the truth, Nena.   As you mentioned it, I can see it.
 And AP, sure, a lot of artistic license was taken. My thought were just to offere a different, off-the-wall perspective.  I did, however, go through  the Hesse Collection catalogue [Portland] and found some examples of that crown  predating Alexandra. Remember, she was not the first Hesse princess to marry into the Romanov clan. Maybe they picked it up, heraldry-wise along the way? The real answer is in the book itself. What is it, title, subject, date.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 25, 2009, 05:30:45 PM
And, the sideways H could be a stylised Cyrllic F.  could it not?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: nena on April 25, 2009, 05:39:10 PM
No, I think it can't be Cyrillic 'F'. Also, if I may notice all ways of looking are symmetrical. Don't you think? Only maybe middle crest make allusion for Cyrillic 'F'.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on April 25, 2009, 05:40:58 PM
Hello, again, Robert !  I'm not certain that I understand the latter reference to a book in your post # 467.  If you are referring to the very large and hefty exhibition catalogue (from which I quoted), it's:  "Nicholas and Alexandra, The Last Imperial Family of Tsarist Russia,"  Harry N. Abrams, Inc, 100 Fifth Ave., New York, NY 10011, 1998, 406 pages.  As to the "sideways H" being a stylized Cyrillic "F": in my opinion, I think not, and would welcome cited examples of the "F" truly being rendered in such a fashion.   Also, I agree that when a Hessian female of the Hessian lineage entered into marriage, especially with a member of the Imperial family, she would have the right to utilize the Imperial "closed" crown, let's say, over an initial (thinking of flatware as the first example that comes to mind).  My reference to the Hessian arms per se and stand-alone, was that members of that family so entitled, assuredly utilized a "Grand-ducal" crown above the Hessian arms unless marriage/another alliance produced another variation.    Regards, AP
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 25, 2009, 06:07:55 PM
Quite ok AP,  I understand my  thoughts are a bit...well artistic perhaps.  The book. no it is not the N&A catalogue, I have that here as well. This is the Hesse Family collextion at the Portland [ Oregon] Art Museum, itself a hefty tome of 287 pages, hardboud- ISBN 1-883124-20-6.
 Remember as well I am just speculating. Not offering a theory.
 As for the Cyrillic F- I have seen it depicted in many ways. I can't type Cyrillic  but you may see, in the form  how it could be constructed. I admit, it takes imagination. I can write it out,   it does seem pointless.
 
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on April 25, 2009, 06:21:33 PM
Thanks, Robert, for your information on the book re the Hesse Family.  I have not seen that one, but it's nice to have the reference number. I accept that you are "just speculating" on the construction/components of what has been established now as a monogram of Nicholas II (most likely only as Tsarevich) , thus the thought re the potentially unusual Cyrillic "F" variation , is indeed "pointless."  Always good to speak with you, and best regards,   AP
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 07, 2010, 07:15:24 PM
With all the wonderful resources available here, I am always surprised that there isn't an overview of the monogramms of the members of the whole Imperial Family.

Back to attributes of Nicholas:
Am I right to assume that his official service grade was IV, as Colonel of an (Old) Life-Guards Regiment? And that as Colonel Romanov he would thus officially (and hypothetically) be adressed as Ваше превосходительство, Your Excellency?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on March 07, 2010, 07:56:12 PM
Feodor, firstly, Colonel was the VI rank. IV was the Major General rank.

As to Nicholas II, yes he "formally" was enlisted in several prestigious regiments including the Erivan 13th Grenadier Regiment (near today's Tbilisi), but actually "served" in Preobrazhensky of His Majesty Guards Regiment and finished his serving with the rank Colonel of the Guard. By the way despite his love to Cavalry, Nicholas surprisingly served in Infantry.

Rank Colonel required "Your High Nobleness", not "Your Excellency" (for Major Gen. and Lieutenant Gen.), but I can hardly imagine even this appeal to Nicholas II. That would have be unethical. Only strictly "Your Imperial Highness."
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 07, 2010, 08:06:55 PM
Feodor, firstly, Colonel was the VI rank. IV was the Major General rank.
Not being a military buff, I might be totally out of my depth here and very well wrong, but didn't all Guards officers enjoy higher ranks than other officers? One rank higher in New Guards regiments and two higher in the Old ones? And wasn't colonel the highest rank in the Guards?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on March 07, 2010, 08:22:37 PM
Yes, in Preobrazhensky and Semeonovsky Regiments formally two classes higher, but I thought you mean Colonel, not the Colonel of the Guard in your post. Anyway, I think you can ask someone more trained in this Table of Ranks.

Dear Feodor, I must say that this "Table of Ranks" make me crazy, even the man who know Russian fluently and feeling himself as a Russian can't understand it. I do not envy you.;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 08, 2010, 03:39:10 PM
Dear Feodor, I must say that this "Table of Ranks" make me crazy, even the man who know Russian fluently and feeling himself as a Russian can't understand it. I do not envy you.;)
Yes, it's fascinatingly complex, isn't it. Basically it's a very rigid and logical system, it's all the modifications and alterations during its 200-year existence that can give you a headache.

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on April 03, 2010, 08:56:50 PM
With all the wonderful resources available here, I am always surprised that there isn't an overview of the monogramms of the members of the whole Imperial Family.

Back to attributes of Nicholas:
Am I right to assume that his official service grade was IV, as Colonel of an (Old) Life-Guards Regiment? And that as Colonel Romanov he would thus officially (and hypothetically) be adressed as Ваше превосходительство, Your Excellency?

Feodor, firstly, Colonel was the VI rank. IV was the Major General rank.

As to Nicholas II, yes he "formally" was enlisted in several prestigious regiments including the Erivan 13th Grenadier Regiment (near today's Tbilisi), but actually "served" in Preobrazhensky of His Majesty Guards Regiment and finished his serving with the rank Colonel of the Guard. By the way despite his love to Cavalry, Nicholas surprisingly served in Infantry.

Rank Colonel required "Your High Nobleness", not "Your Excellency" (for Major Gen. and Lieutenant Gen.), but I can hardly imagine even this appeal to Nicholas II. That would have be unethical. Only strictly "Your Imperial Highness."

Feodor, firstly, Colonel was the VI rank. IV was the Major General rank.
Not being a military buff, I might be totally out of my depth here and very well wrong, but didn't all Guards officers enjoy higher ranks than other officers? One rank higher in New Guards regiments and two higher in the Old ones? And wasn't colonel the highest rank in the Guards?

Yes, in Preobrazhensky and Semeonovsky Regiments formally two classes higher, but I thought you mean Colonel, not the Colonel of the Guard in your post. Anyway, I think you can ask someone more trained in this Table of Ranks.

Dear Feodor, I must say that this "Table of Ranks" make me crazy, even the man who know Russian fluently and feeling himself as a Russian can't understand it. I do not envy you.;)

Dear Feodor, I must say that this "Table of Ranks" make me crazy, even the man who know Russian fluently and feeling himself as a Russian can't understand it. I do not envy you.;)
Yes, it's fascinatingly complex, isn't it. Basically it's a very rigid and logical system, it's all the modifications and alterations during its 200-year existence that can give you a headache.


Feodor, maybe it's too late, but I finally found correct information about this difficult case.

If we talk about the last version of the Table of Ranks (from the end of 19th century and till 1918), then Nicholas as a Colonel of the Guard officialy had the 5th rank in the Table of Ranks (not the 6th or even 4th) and de facto had style of adress - "Your High Ancestry" ("Ваше Высокородие"). In the last version of Table of Ranks all the Guard ranks gave an advantage of only one additional rank to other military ranks, not two as an in the original version.

So finally, Nicholas the II was officially Colonel of the Guard, had the 5th rank in the Table of Ranks and could have been possibly adressed (if he was not a Tsar;) as "Your High Ancestry" (or simply "Your Highbornness" in your version).
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 04, 2010, 08:32:32 AM
It's never too late, Nicolá, thank you very much for that correction!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Tsarya on October 09, 2010, 07:54:05 AM
Do you think this recording of Nicholas' voice is genuine?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OR2KnRPgKQ

The title says "Historical speech of the Russian Tsar in Paris" (1902)

I just wonder if some of you have ever heard of it, because what's said inside seems to prove his authenticity.
The first one speaking would be Nicholas (he talks about the french army) and at the end we hear the french president.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 09, 2010, 08:44:48 AM
Oh my God, Tsarya, thank you ever so much for finding this clip! I can't see why it should not be genuine, this is not the kind of stuff that is likely to come from a movie.
According to the intro, it's recorded at Krasnoye Selo, at a troop revue, during President Loubet's state visit.
So exciting to hear NII's French! It seems he had a uvular (Parisian) r, while President Loubet (who was of Southern French, rural middle-class origins) had a rolled r!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Tsarya on October 10, 2010, 01:21:29 PM
Oh you're welcome =) I'm just lucky I've found it! I wondered if it was real because it's so hard to find this kind of document :) besides it is so awesome to hear him that I thought it couldn't be real ^^
Aaah Nicholas speaking my native tongue ... indeed it's exciting!
You're right about the accents!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: AGRBear on January 29, 2011, 03:38:38 PM
This is the first time I've read this thread.

I am interested in Nicholas II's tattoo.

Can someone provide the full photos from which the photos below are a part.

Thanks.

AGRBear

Nicholas definetly had a tatoo:

Why we could not see it properly? Here my hypothesis
1: here remove it and had just a scar, so it is less visible
2: in the 19 and 20th century, because of the chimical process of the photography, some of the colors are changed in the photo. For exemple, blue looks like white and red and yellow look like black. So IF his tatoo was blue, we could not see it properly.
3: the person who developp the photograph retouched the negative in order to hide Nicholas' tatoo...

Pictures of Nicholas' right arm:
(http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/4779/000440072wa.th.jpg) (http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000440072wa.jpg)  (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/4369/000640136og.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000640136og.jpg)  (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/5532/000640198cw.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=000640198cw.jpg)  
Here I pushed  the contrast and you can see clearly  a tatoo!
(http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8643/0006401919ew.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0006401919ew.jpg)  (http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/8229/00094004a3ci.th.jpg) (http://img114.imageshack.us/my.php?image=00094004a3ci.jpg)

Just to compare, here is the George V's dragon:(http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/429/tatouagegeorgev4sr.th.jpg) (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tatouagegeorgev4sr.jpg)
http://www.vanishingtattoo.com/tattoo/celeb-georgehtm.htm
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: voyageroffreedom on January 30, 2011, 09:14:57 AM
AGRBear, if I’m not mistaken I think these pictures come from Beinecke Albums, the last two links are not the one posted but they show Nicholas’ tatoo

http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0009/00094004.jpg
http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0006/00064013.jpg
http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0006/00064019.jpg
http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0004/00044007.jpg
http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0002/00024014.jpg
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: AGRBear on January 30, 2011, 03:59:12 PM
Thank you.

AGRBear

AGRBear, if I’m not mistaken I think these pictures come from Beinecke Albums, the last two links are not the one posted but they show Nicholas’ tatoo

http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0009/00094004.jpg
http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0006/00064013.jpg
http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0006/00064019.jpg
http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0004/00044007.jpg
http://brbl-images.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0002/00024014.jpg

Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: bestfriendsgirl on February 01, 2011, 07:58:09 PM
This is an interesting thread ... thanks so much for the links to voice recordings! I think maybe one reason we find the Romanovs so facinating is that they lived at the very beginning of the age of mass media and this record makes it easier to relate to them. As for birth control, well, I'd find it hard to be at ease doing the wild thing in the bedroom at Tsarskoe Selo with all those icons looking down on me!  ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik on February 02, 2011, 08:43:50 PM
The French voice recording that Tsarya lists above is interesting.  I noticed that the first speaker (after the brief intro) is younger than the second, which is correct, as Nicholas was much younger than Loubet.  Also, if you hear Nicholas say l'Armee Russe, he rolls his R on that one word, Russe, but not on the other Rs he speaks, which are Parisian, as Fyodor Petrovich mentioned.  That makes sense!  You can imagine a Tsar not wanting to say the name of his own country with a foreign accent!

Does everyone agree that it sounds like Nicholas?  I'm going to check with a native French speaker.  I do remember Gilliard mentioning that when they went to Romania, he heard Nicholas speak French in public, and it sounded like St Petersburg French.  Wonder what that was.  Maybe a sort of flowery, proper speech without all the native's colloquial expressions?

I found this cool link with lots of photos:  The French in St. Petersburg.  See the pages on President Loubet's 1902 visit:

http://stpetersburg.berkeley.edu/luke/luke_front.html

Naslednik
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on February 02, 2011, 10:09:36 PM
  Response to "Naslednik" and Post # 430:  Yes, the usage of the Russian "rolled r" is distinctive. I have several times travelled the total depth of "Western " or "European Russia," always in the company of friends who were/are native Russians, using private and public LAND (NOT the "impersonal" air) transportation.  Family friends of mine in Yaroslavl Oblast, one of my very favorite areas, have a now-13 year old who "adopted" me as his "uncle" when he was in day-care. Nikita is amazing, in that being native born, he has apparently NEVER rolled his "r"s (unless he's just begun in the past couple of years).  He speaks only Russian. There is no defect of the mouth cavity, etc., per se, to obstruct such. Fascinating to listen to him speak, somewhat akin to hearing the youngsters speak in Barcelona and Malaga, in Spain, where I have also done a goodly bit of traveling.
  By the way, Yaroslaval is a favorite place of mine, being established in AD 1010.  Terrifically historical and deeply interwoven into the fabric of Russian history, unlike the "just over the border "fringe" cities/town where tourists make a "token" visit and announce that they have seen the "real Russia." ( It's like my favorite joke re Colonial Williamsburg Restoration in Virginia, USA.  The question goes:  "Have you ever visited Colonial Williamsburg?"  The answer:  "Oh, yes!  Saw it All, and enjoyed it immensely!  I was there for more than one-half day!" Of course, they were then on their way to their REAL interest:  "Busch Garderns," just down the road!)      Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on February 03, 2011, 09:33:56 AM
Re my Post # 431, immediately above:     Now, let's try one of the ending words of that again:  "Busch GARDENS."   In humor,  AP.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik on February 05, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Dear Alesandr Pavlovich;

I'm glad you also hear that the fellow we think is Nicholas is rolling his R only on "Russe." Otherwise I would think that I am hearing something simply because I want to hear it.  If this is Nicholas, he certainly is poised in public and very well-spoken.  It is hard to imagine him being nervous, although we know from his Journal that he had tremendous fits of nerves before public speeches.  I can relate -- I am a performer, too, and dread the stage.  I do believe that history is written by the Winners, and we see 'loser' Nicholas as a lot less competent than he was.

Now you mentioned Russian children who can't roll the R.  I know two such!  Probably they just don't "hear" the R rolled (the brain doesn't process that sound).  For instance, I can't for the life of me pronounce "Myshkin" in Russian because the "y" doesn't get processed in my brain well enough to know how to move my lips, throat and tongue.  Trying to think in French or English doesn't help me.  I end up saying either "Mishkin" or "Mooshkin" and my Russian friends laugh that I'm calling a Dostoyevsky hero Prince Mouse or Prince Bear.

Had a good laugh over Busch Gardens.  Busch BeerGartens?  Yes, Williamsburg is canned.  What do you think of Gettysburg?  It felt a bit canned, but also deeply moving.

Yaroslavl.  I want to go.  Is it part of the old Ring of cities, the golden ring?  Did you hear any bells?  I have to see/hear some Russian bells played, maybe Rostov some day.
Naslednik
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik on February 09, 2011, 05:01:48 PM
About the 1902 voice recording with President Loubet:

Now I'm not so sure it is Nicholas.

I just had my French friend listen to the 1902 recording, and he thinks that it is not Nicholas talking!  I am so disappointed.  He believes that the recording is like this:

(short Narration Voice #1) (Speech in French, Voice#1) (short Narration Voice #1) (Speech in French Voice#2).

In other words, a French person speaks the quick introductions and Loubet does his own speech.  I guessed why this might be -- if the event was in Krasnoe, Nicholas would have spoken in Russian, and Loubet in French.  But if it were re-recorded back in France, the narrating voice might have spoken Nicholas' speech translated from Russian to French.  Perhaps it was prepared for a radio transmission?  I don't know, radio was just being invented, so that's unlikely, unless it was transcribed much later.

On the other hand, if the audience at these speeches was more educated, it is possible Nicholas might have spoken French.

So it all depends upon whether the "Narrator" voice is the same as the first real Speaker....

What do you think?
Naslednik
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on February 09, 2011, 06:47:30 PM
  Re "Naslednik" and your post # 434:  Thanks for your thoughts/impressions re the "Nicholas II/M. Loubet" recording.  Who REALLY knows?  There is even controversy about the authenticity/assignment of the "Nicholas II" recording thanking his troops ("Brothers") for a good military review/maneuvers.  
  I regret that I am late in responding to your kind questions of your post # 433.  To answer:  Yes, Williamsburg, Virginia (USA) is "canned" (or "scripted"), but the vast majority of such sites are, of necessity I suppose.  I have visited Gettysburg, Pennsylvania (USA) a number of times, but prefer Williamsburg as that time period/era is more closely aligned with my interests.
  As to "bells":  Yes, one can hear bells at a number of places in Russia.  I think the bells of the Moscow Kremlin are quite distinctive. To me, excepting the deeper tones, they have always seemed to produce a rather "silvery" sound, a bit higher pitched than one would first expect.
  I certainly hope that you will get to travel to Russia to see for yourself places such as the Yaroslavl Oblast. Also when there, try to visit the city of Uglich, an interesting place in its own right, especially relative to the early demise (murder?) of the young Prince Dmitri Ivanovich.
                                   With best wishes to you and yours for the New Year,    AP.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on February 10, 2011, 10:11:34 AM
Of course the "historical" sites in the US and other places are "canned".  Would one truly think that people, except for the Amish, actually live in the 18th or 19th century?  And of course, the Amish are not an historical site, their way of life should be respected not gawked at.

I have been to both Williamsburg, VA and Gettysburg, too.  I have also been to "Od Sturbridge Village" In Massachusetts.  The people at these places are "actors" and employees of the National Park Service.

My husband was interested in joining the drum corps that plays at Williamsburg.  He found that the members are college students who volunteer for the job.  He was disappointed as he would have liked to be a part of an organization that gets to play historical music for a living.

These places are very much like the "reenactors" the people who reenact battles from the Revolution and the Civil War.  If you go to Gettysburg over the weekend of July 4, you will find the streets crowded by those reenactors in 19th century dress who are there for the anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg.  It is an amazing sight.  They stay in costume day and night for four days.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Naslednik on February 10, 2011, 09:28:37 PM
Yes, I've seen re-enactors at Gettysburg: medical corps re-enactors!  They educated us about anesthesia, amputation, etc.  But this is off topic.

I mention 'canned' not in the obvious sense, people dressed up playing the part of another era.  What I mean is something slightly closer to a thin veil of unintended propaganda.  I am so moved at Gettysburg each time I visit, but the message they convey is sometimes canned: the North was fighting to end slavery.  But I know the average Union soldier was not risking his life to end the inequality of slavery.  So I leave this historical site with deep emotions, but aware that I have witnessed some 21st century spin.

I cannot imagine how hard it would be to have a palace display of the IF and avoid the problem of 'spin.'  Each one of us has such different opinions on Nicholas and Alexandra, and future historians may never reconcile all the controversies of propaganda, gossip, suppressed publication and martyrdom.  A wise Curator might just label items for what they are: uniform, chair, toy, and leave the interpretation to the individual.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on February 12, 2011, 08:42:41 AM
I agree that we have strayed off topic.

I also agree that if one does more that tour the battlefield at Gettysburg, then one will be exposed to "spin".

I would be very difficult to have a "living" memorial to the Romanovs - for example have actors dress up and sign the abdication agreement five times a day (or something like that).

But back to Nicholas and his personal attributes and the always controversial tattoo!
Title: The Tsar's Speech
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on February 28, 2011, 06:39:21 PM
lso, if you hear Nicholas say l'Armee Russe, he rolls his R on that one word, Russe, but not on the other Rs he speaks, which are Parisian, as Fyodor Petrovich mentioned.  That makes sense!  You can imagine a Tsar not wanting to say the name of his own country with a foreign accent!
I doubt it's intentional, it's probably just interference from his native Russian, possibly because the word is so similar to the Russian one.

I would also say this little slip is a proof that it is actually NII speaking and not some "voice-over". Why would the Frenchman doing the voice-over make this little slip (I doubt somebody had written down NII's speech phonetically to aid him in recreating it!), when the rolled r's of Loubet are ample proof that a French audience would not consider a rolled r as a specific Russian trait that could be added for "Russianness".

On the other hand, if the audience at these speeches was more educated, it is possible Nicholas might have spoken French.
NII was adressing the president first and foremost. All the other officers also understood French. And they all cared very little about what the simple soldiers understood of this high-flying diplomatic exchange.

Regarding children who can't roll their r's and use a uvular one instead: In Russian this is known as "kartavitz" and was seen as a typical Jewish trait, wasn't it?
It's one of the most common speech impediments. But the story that the French adopted the uvular r because of fawning courtiers imitating Louis XIV's speech impediment is probably just an urban legend. Just like President Loubet, [lə rwa sɔ.lɛj] probably rolled his r's. As aleksandr pavlovich noted the uvular r's "home" is on both sides of the Pyrenees, where it has co-existed with the uvular r for ages, with complementary distribution. It was only when it spread northwards after the Middle Ages that there appeared varities in which the uvular r was the only r sound.

I don't know how common this speech impediment is in speakers of varities of English, where an alveolar tap or approximant are the most common r's.

For instance, I can't for the life of me pronounce "Myshkin" in Russian because the "y" doesn't get processed in my brain well enough to know how to move my lips, throat and tongue.  Trying to think in French or English doesn't help me.  I end up saying either "Mishkin" or "Mooshkin" and my Russian friends laugh that I'm calling a Dostoyevsky hero Prince Mouse or Prince Bear.
And the correct pronunciation of Мышкин is ['m ʷi ʂ kʲ ɨ n], or?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: bestfriendsgirl on May 16, 2011, 05:00:57 PM
From all the photos of Nicholas II I've seen, he appears to have rather large feet for as small as he was. Has anyone else noticed this?
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 16, 2011, 11:24:01 PM
From all the photos of Nicholas II I've seen, he appears to have rather large feet for as small as he was. Has anyone else noticed this?


Yes! That's true! I didn't saw Maria Fyodorovna's feet, but maybe she had big feets too. Nicholas had almost the same physical features than his mother.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dvoynik_nikolay on December 22, 2011, 12:48:30 PM
From all the photos of Nicholas II I've seen, he appears to have rather large feet for as small as he was. Has anyone else noticed this?

From all the photos of Nicholas II I've seen, he appears to have rather large feet for as small as he was. Has anyone else noticed this?


Yes! That's true! I didn't saw Maria Fyodorovna's feet, but maybe she had big feets too. Nicholas had almost the same physical features than his mother.

RealAnastasia.

For such statements are necessary facts, based on measurements. It was just for you to do. For these purposes, there is a huge number of photos. The proportions of the body is easily measured by investigators from the photos. But you have not already done so. Therefore, your statement should be classified as intentional unsubstantiated vilification Nicholas II.  Why are you doing?





Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: bestfriendsgirl on December 22, 2011, 06:47:57 PM
Vilification? Sheesh!  ::) I was just making a casual observation!
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Kalafrana on December 23, 2011, 06:08:24 AM
It's hardly vilification to suggest that someone has big feet for his size! In any event, the size of feet varies quite a bit and is not necessarily proportionate to overall size. I am 5ft 6 and in theory take a UK size 6. I say in theory because I have very wide feet and need 7s or even 8s to get shoes that are wide enough. My brother (5ft 11) takes 7s, while my 'chap' (5ft 8) takes 9s. An acquaintance of mine who is a mere 4ft 10 takes 4s, but sometimes 6s, as she also has wide feet.

Ann
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Alixz on December 23, 2011, 01:27:32 PM
Good grief!

Much ado about nothing.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: historyfan on December 23, 2011, 05:43:36 PM
Wonder if Nicholas himself would've taken such offense?  ; )
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 23, 2011, 06:09:01 PM
It would have been extremely de classe  if not lese majeste to even  mention such a thing.  One does not comment on another's physical appearance except in  positive ways [flattery]. Otherwise, it is rude and shows lack of breeding.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: bestfriendsgirl on December 23, 2011, 07:26:14 PM
I guess no one ever, ever mentioned Nicholas' height, then ...  ;)
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 23, 2011, 07:31:09 PM
Not to him, they would not.
 That is why this whole topic is so silly. It is something that just not would have been said.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: historyfan on December 23, 2011, 09:01:59 PM
It would have been extremely de classe  if not lese majeste to even  mention such a thing.  One does not comment on another's physical appearance except in  positive ways [flattery]. Otherwise, it is rude and shows lack of breeding.

Of course it is. I was only making the point that here, on this board, it's hardly vilification.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dvoynik_nikolay on December 24, 2011, 08:24:10 AM
I just wanted to say that the allegations of imbalances should bring the evidence. A lot of words said, a lot of criticism expressed by my criticism, but no one has presented data on the size of feet and shoe of Nicholas II and that "he appears to have rather large feet for as small as he was". Where is  evidence?
 
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Robert_Hall on December 24, 2011, 12:31:36 PM
I agree with you, Historyfan, it is not vilification. That is a  rather harsh and inappropriate word  for this case.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: dvoynik_nikolay on December 24, 2011, 01:31:49 PM
About the 1902 voice recording with President Loubet.


Now I'm not so sure it is Nicholas.

I just had my French friend listen to the 1902 recording, and he thinks that it is not Nicholas talking!  I am so disappointed.  He believes that the recording is like this:

(short Narration Voice #1) (Speech in French, Voice#1) (short Narration Voice #1) (Speech in French Voice#2).

In other words, a French person speaks the quick introductions and Loubet does his own speech.  I guessed why this might be -- if the event was in Krasnoe, Nicholas would have spoken in Russian, and Loubet in French.  But if it were re-recorded back in France, the narrating voice might have spoken Nicholas' speech translated from Russian to French.  Perhaps it was prepared for a radio transmission?  I don't know, radio was just being invented, so that's unlikely, unless it was transcribed much later.

On the other hand, if the audience at these speeches was more educated, it is possible Nicholas might have spoken French.

So it all depends upon whether the "Narrator" voice is the same as the first real Speaker....

What do you think?
Naslednik

This is exactly the voice of Nicholas II. This is what I wrote in the discussion  Voices of the Imperial Family http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16135.30 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16135.30)
This speech, more precisely - the toast he gave May 8, 1902 at a luncheon during visit to Russia of President Loubet. And this speech in French, published in the official (Ïðàâèòåëüñòâåííûé âåñòíèê) Government Gazette  1902, No102.
 (http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/dvoynik_nikolay/th_speech_1.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/dvoynik_nikolay/?action=view&current=speech_1.jpg)(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/dvoynik_nikolay/th_speech_2.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/dvoynik_nikolay/?action=view&current=speech_2.jpg)

Given on the pages of the Complete Collection of speeches, Tsar Nicholas II - is speech 62.
Title: Re: Personal Attributes of Nicholas II
Post by: Inok Nikolai on November 19, 2013, 04:00:11 PM
About the 1902 voice recording with President Loubet.


Now I'm not so sure it is Nicholas.

I just had my French friend listen to the 1902 recording, and he thinks that it is not Nicholas talking!  I am so disappointed.  He believes that the recording is like this:

(short Narration Voice #1) (Speech in French, Voice#1) (short Narration Voice #1) (Speech in French Voice#2).

In other words, a French person speaks the quick introductions and Loubet does his own speech.  I guessed why this might be -- if the event was in Krasnoe, Nicholas would have spoken in Russian, and Loubet in French.  But if it were re-recorded back in France, the narrating voice might have spoken Nicholas' speech translated from Russian to French.  Perhaps it was prepared for a radio transmission?  I don't know, radio was just being invented, so that's unlikely, unless it was transcribed much later.

On the other hand, if the audience at these speeches was more educated, it is possible Nicholas might have spoken French.

So it all depends upon whether the "Narrator" voice is the same as the first real Speaker....

What do you think?
Naslednik

This is exactly the voice of Nicholas II. This is what I wrote in the discussion  Voices of the Imperial Family http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16135.30 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16135.30)
This speech, more precisely - the toast he gave May 8, 1902 at a luncheon during visit to Russia of President Loubet. And this speech in French, published in the official (Ïðàâèòåëüñòâåííûé âåñòíèê) Government Gazette  1902, No102.
 (http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/dvoynik_nikolay/th_speech_1.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/dvoynik_nikolay/?action=view&current=speech_1.jpg)(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/dvoynik_nikolay/th_speech_2.jpg) (http://s1087.photobucket.com/albums/j473/dvoynik_nikolay/?action=view&current=speech_2.jpg)

Given on the pages of the Complete Collection of speeches, Tsar Nicholas II - is speech 62.


For the convenience of everyone involved in this discussion on voice recordings, here is another thread on that topic:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16135.msg505451#msg505451