Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Windsors => Topic started by: kmerov on March 15, 2009, 07:17:32 PM

Title: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: kmerov on March 15, 2009, 07:17:32 PM
I was trying to remember the seven Princesses that were mentioned as the only possible wifes for Albert Edward, because of their protestant faith and their age. I  once started a thread on this subject (which gave all the answers, but I'm afraid I have forgotten them again :-[), but it vanished.
I have always found it interesting to see which royals were mentioned, more or less seriously, in connection to each other.
Anyways,  in Berties case I think the following Princesses were talked about, Elisabeth of Wied, Anne of Hesse, Alexandra of Denmark, one of the Hannovers, and the rest I can't remember.

I broaden the topic as it would be interesting to see the possible brides (maybe it's just me) for all of Victorias sons.

Princess Thyra of Denmark was seriously mentioned for Arthur, but he was not a favorite of her mother Queen Louise who wanted Ernst August of Hannover.

 
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: grandduchessella on March 15, 2009, 08:32:50 PM
Alfred--GDss Olga of Russia (later Queen Olga), GDss Marie's daughter Eugenie, Elizabeth Wied, Tina Oldenburg (until her untimely death)
Arthur--Thyra of Denmark, Frederica (Lily) of Hannover, Marie (Mary) of Hannover
Leopold--Lily of Hannover
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: eejm on March 15, 2009, 08:45:20 PM
Elizabeth of Wied was also seriously considered for Bertie, as was Anna of Hesse (sister of his eventual brother-in-law, Louis).  Louise of Sweden was thought to be a good candidate, if not for that fact that she was ten years younger than Bertie.

Alfred pushed to marry Frederica (Lily) of Hanover, but Queen Victoria feared the blindness that was in Lily's family.  QV didn't seem to understand that the blindness was not genetic.  Alfred also wished that Bertie would refuse Alix of Denmark, so Alfred himself could marry her. 

Arthur pursued another of the Hanover daughters - Marie, I believe? 

Leopold considered many different brides; several refused him due to his health and other reasons.  He, too, fell for Lily of Hanover; she had instead fallen in love with her father's equerry.  Leopold helped the two to marry, and became a very close friend of Lily's for the rest of his life.  Daisy Maynard was also considered, but she too fell for another man - Leopold's friend and former tutor.  Again, he helped the two correspond, and they later married.  Victoria of Baden, Calma of Schleswig-Holstein, and Elizabeth of Hesse-Cassel were all possibilities (Calma was the strongest candidate), but all refused Leopold on the basis of his health.  By the time he met his eventual wife, Helen of Waldeck, poor Leopold was almost out of hope. 

In many cases, it was Vicky who sought out and often arranged meetings for her brothers and their prospective wives.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Marc on March 15, 2009, 09:14:02 PM
Alfred--GDss Olga of Russia (later Queen Olga), GDss Marie's daughter Eugenie, Elizabeth Wied, Tina Oldenburg (until her untimely death)
Arthur--Thyra of Denmark, Frederica (Lily) of Hannover, Marie (Mary) of Hannover
Leopold--Lily of Hannover


It seems Alfred had the pick for the "Russians" Olga of Russia,Marie of Russia,Leuchtenberg,Oldenburg etc.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: grandduchessella on March 16, 2009, 12:01:10 PM
QV had written that she was so despairing over him settling down she was willing to overlook the religion question. Orthodox wouldn't, and didn't in the case of GDss Marie, present the problem that Catholicism would.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Marlene on March 16, 2009, 12:16:22 PM


Marie of Saxe-Altenburg was mentioned as a bride for Bertie.

I was trying to remember the seven Princesses that were mentioned as the only possible wifes for Albert Edward, because of their protestant faith and their age. I  once started a thread on this subject (which gave all the answers, but I'm afraid I have forgotten them again :-[), but it vanished.
I have always found it interesting to see which royals were mentioned, more or less seriously, in connection to each other.
Anyways,  in Berties case I think the following Princesses were talked about, Elisabeth of Wied, Anne of Hesse, Alexandra of Denmark, one of the Hannovers, and the rest I can't remember.

I broaden the topic as it would be interesting to see the possible brides (maybe it's just me) for all of Victorias sons.

Princess Thyra of Denmark was seriously mentioned for Arthur, but he was not a favorite of her mother Queen Louise who wanted Ernst August of Hannover.

 

Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Marc on March 17, 2009, 10:16:01 PM
QV had written that she was so despairing over him settling down she was willing to overlook the religion question. Orthodox wouldn't, and didn't in the case of GDss Marie, present the problem that Catholicism would.

Why just over him?
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: grandduchessella on March 18, 2009, 10:51:24 AM
Because once Bertie was settled, he was the one to worry over. He led a wild life, unlike Arthur and Leopold. QV felt he needed to marry and settle down.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: TampaBay on March 18, 2009, 10:54:44 AM
Because once Bertie was settled, he was the one to worry over. He led a wild life, unlike Arthur and Leopold. QV felt he needed to marry and settle down.

Did not QV want Alfred settled in marriage for the same reason?

It has been said that GD Marie and Alfred were not a love match but with six pregnancies over something like 12 years (???) there was definitely something going on.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: imperial angel on March 18, 2009, 11:15:25 AM
Defintely, that's why Queen Victoria wanted Alfred to marry. Many royal couples who weren't love matches had many kids. KR who was gay married and had quite a large family by his wife, for example. So sexual attraction wasn't always the reason for royals having many kids back then. Alfred and Marie's marriage started out happier than it ended too, it's not that they didn't get along from the begining. After all, Alfred wanted Marie as his bride.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: grandduchessella on March 18, 2009, 12:13:48 PM
Because once Bertie was settled, he was the one to worry over. He led a wild life, unlike Arthur and Leopold. QV felt he needed to marry and settle down.

Did not QV want Alfred settled in marriage for the same reason?


That was what I said.  ??? QV wanted Alfred settled down because of his wild behavior, much like Bertie's.

Arthur & Leopold she was less keen on marrying off so the religious issue didn't come up--at least not in the published letters I've seen--as it did with Alfred.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Marlene on March 18, 2009, 03:06:48 PM
Some years ago,  The Slavonic and East European review (a scholarly journal) published an article about Alfred and Marie and how that marriage came about.

Because once Bertie was settled, he was the one to worry over. He led a wild life, unlike Arthur and Leopold. QV felt he needed to marry and settle down.

Did not QV want Alfred settled in marriage for the same reason?


That was what I said.  ??? QV wanted Alfred settled down because of his wild behavior, much like Bertie's.

Arthur & Leopold she was less keen on marrying off so the religious issue didn't come up--at least not in the published letters I've seen--as it did with Alfred.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: eejm on March 18, 2009, 07:14:33 PM
Because once Bertie was settled, he was the one to worry over. He led a wild life, unlike Arthur and Leopold. QV felt he needed to marry and settle down.

Did not QV want Alfred settled in marriage for the same reason?


That was what I said.  ??? QV wanted Alfred settled down because of his wild behavior, much like Bertie's.

Arthur & Leopold she was less keen on marrying off so the religious issue didn't come up--at least not in the published letters I've seen--as it did with Alfred.

QV actually did NOT want Leopold to marry.  She wanted to keep him unmarried and her advisor - much as she desired to keep Beatrice unmarried as her companion.  She thought marriage and particularly fatherhood were out of the question for Leopold due to his health as well.  Eventually, she came to realize how important it was to him, and began to look for possible brides.  He did remain her unofficial secretary and advisor after his marriage.  Like Beatrice and Helena, Leopold stuck close to home despite attempts to do otherwise.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: TampaBay on March 19, 2009, 09:13:56 AM

Some years ago,  The Slavonic and East European review (a scholarly journal) published an article about Alfred and Marie and how that marriage came about.


Marlene,

Can you give us any interesting details from the article?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: kmerov on March 21, 2009, 04:38:33 PM
Regarding the seven Princesses for Bertie. In 1858,  The Times published a list of the Princesses, and wrote, "our future monarch's choice of wife will be limited to exactly seven women of royal blood, unless he chooses a consort far older then him. This will undoubtedly come as a surprise to some of our readers, but it is none the less the truth."
These were all protestant, six were German ( The Princesses that Vicky visited on her search for a wife -tour) and Alexandra of Denmark. The Times also predicted that Alexandra would be the favorite, but that was not the case with Prince Albert and QV at that time.
As written before I think the German Princesses were Elisabeth of Wied, Anne of Hesse, one of the Hannovers, Marie of Saxe-Altenburg (thanks Marlene), and the rest are still not accounted for.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Veronica on March 21, 2009, 05:15:57 PM
According to the book "Queen victoria" by Helen Rappaport some of the possible brides were:

Elisabeth of Wied, but she was not pretty;
A princess of Meiningen, but Bertie didn't like her;
Marie of the Netherlands, who was too plain and sickly in the queen's view;
Alexandrine of Prussia, who was, "poor girl", neither clever nor pretty.

The book doesn't mention the others appart from Alexandra of Denmark
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: grandduchessella on March 22, 2009, 04:04:30 PM
QV to EF 31 mar 1858: '"And pray don't forget inquiring about the young princess of Hesse (Anna). We must look out for princesses for Bertie--as his wife ought not to be above a year or 2 younger than him, therefore 14 or 15 now, pretty, quiet, clever and sensible. Oh! if yo wold find us one!"

QV to EF 21 April 1858: " I wish I could see and hear more about the young princess of Hesse. Her age would be just the thing."

QV to EF 18 Dec 1860: "We are anxious to know as much about Princess Elizabeth of Wied and Anna of Hesse as possible, I think future choice of Bertie must lie much between them. o gave a very favourable report of Anna afer you saw her at Darmstadt last year (which I have lately read over). Did you find her improved this year or not? Has she a good complexion and figure--is she quick and inelligent as dear Louis is? You know, dearest, we must feel very anxious about this choice and the beauty of Denmark is much against our wishes. I do wish somebody would go and marry her off--at once. If Bertie could see and like one of the others first then I am sure we should be safe."

EF to QV 26 Sep 1861: "I see that Alix has made an impression on Bertie, though in his own funny, undemonstrative way. He said to me that he had never seen a young lady who pleased him so much...She was not shy. I never saw a girl of sixteen so forward for her age: her manners are more like 24...She is so simple and unaffected and quite unaware of her charms....Princess Christian said...that Augusta [Cambridge] is very much against the thought of Bertie marrying Alix as she is jealous of everybody..."

QV to EF 15 Oct 1861: "What you say about bertie and that lovely young Princess is so true--so sad adn the prospect a melancholy one! Still we must not despair. In his way he is occupied with her...which I think a good sign."

QV to EF 19 April 1862: "Respecting Dagmar, I do not wish her to be kept for Affie; let the Emperor have her....Considering the outcry there  sin Germany about this marriage [Bertie & Alix]...that to go and make Affie, the future Duke of Coburg, take the other sister would be really courting abuse and enmity. Another reason against the thought of it is that dear Papa, even in A. of H.'s [Anna Hesse] case (before he had seen her, and before he knew she would not suit) thought her being Louis' sister an objection as too much of one family. And yet a brother and sisteris a very different thing to two sisters. I think therefore, dearest, Dagmar should be entirely dropped and the mother encouraged to give her to the future Czar if that will secure Alix....The young princess of Altenburg [Marie] wold be a very good match for dear Affie--as well as the Hanoverian [Frederica] and possibly the eldest Weimar [Marie] may turn out less ugly. There is also the young Princess of Wurttemberg for him; never mind equality of age. How many marry people of the same age?"
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Marc on March 22, 2009, 06:06:47 PM
Love the way they speak to each other about all those Princesses,about their qualities and their lack of beauty,charm...etc.If you find some more correspondence about any other bride for QV's sons please post...love reading about royal matching :)
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: grandduchessella on March 22, 2009, 07:03:55 PM
From An Uncommon Woman (p.143-4): 'Alhough Anna was said to be attractive and charming, Vicky's reaction to her was decidedly tepid. "I do not think her pretty--she has not a fine figure...and her teeth are nearly all spoilt"...Vicky was particularly distressed by Anna's unfortunate habit of twitching, which, she assured Victoria, "her father and second brother Heinrich do continually"....The young Princess of Weimar's teeth were "almost black" and the Princess of Sweden was still undeveloped. Vicky had gone as far as Dusseldorf, where her family's friend and father-in-law's Prime miniser, Prince Hohenzollern, had arranged a dinner party attended by the eligible princesses in that part of Germany, but none of them were interesting enough to become a future Queen of England. The search for Bertie's wife had come to a standstill when Victoria and Albert arrived in Coburg in the fall of 1860....Queen Victoria...was growing impatient. She would have settled quite happily for Anna of Hesse and tried to ignore Vicky's hints that this girl simply would not do. "I am much pleased with the account of Princess Anna, (minus the twitching)," Victoria declared....[Regarding the 25-year-old Elisabeth of Wied Vicky wrote] "I do not think her at all distinguee looking--certainly the opposite of Bertie's usual taste." "
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: kmerov on May 03, 2009, 09:39:20 AM
Thank you all for your posts. :)
Dulce M. Ashdown writes in "Queen Victoria's family "about the possible brides of Bertie,
" By 1861 the Princess Eliabeth of Wied had been discarded from the shortlist as being too "loud" in her behaviour; the Princess Anna of Hesse was too plain, though docile and religious; Alexandrine of Prussia was neither clever nor pretty; the Princess of Saxe-Meiningen was delicate in health, as was Marie of the Netherlands; the Princess of Anhalt-Dessau was too old and the Princess of Sweden too young".
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Marc on May 03, 2009, 10:02:22 AM
Who was that Princess von Anhalt?
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: kmerov on May 03, 2009, 10:04:11 AM
Prince Arthur and Princess Thyra were also a possible mach. They had corresponded with each other, and around 1873 there was much talk of a marriage. However Queen Louise was against it.
Queen Louise wrote to Maria Feodorovna who was in England " What you say about Arthur is gratifying, and yet for me awful, for of course I see the consequences before me (Thyra leaving home)".
 In 1873 Arthur made a visit to the Danish court, but Queen Victoria gave him instructions not to bring up the subject. Arthur didn't make a good impression at the Danish court, which found him to be lacking in talents and looks. Later that year Thyra made a visit to England and Alexandra wrote,
"...and now about poor Thyra...it is a painful position she is in right now because of Arthur. We two know her best and know her childhood illusion is not spoiled, on the contrary after they saw each other. On the other hand I do understand Mama who doesn't want this marriage (because of many reasons)...."
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: kmerov on May 03, 2009, 10:05:44 AM
Who was that Princess von Anhalt?

I was wondering the same thing, but the book dosn't mention her name.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Kevin From Australia on May 03, 2009, 05:25:50 PM
I think it would have been Hilda of Anhalt, though she was 2 years older than the Prince, and a 1st cousin of Alexandra of Denmark
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Rupert_B on May 04, 2009, 12:56:15 AM
KR who was gay married and had quite a large family by his wife, for example.

Excuse my ignorance but who was KR mentioned above ?

Thanks

Paul
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Bobo on May 04, 2009, 03:17:34 AM
Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich of Russia (1858 - 1915) There is heaps about him on the Imperial Family thread if you are interested.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: kmerov on March 17, 2010, 10:19:25 PM
In 1879 Leopold proposed to Mary Baring, daughter of the late Baron Ashburton, but she declined. I wonder if this painting is of the said Mary Baring?
http://www.artilim.com/artist/watts-george-frederick/the-honourable-mary-baring.aspx (http://www.artilim.com/artist/watts-george-frederick/the-honourable-mary-baring.aspx)
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Veronica on March 18, 2010, 12:36:53 PM
That's indeed her.

In this page the painting is identified with her full name:

http://www.georgefredericwatts.org/The-Honourable-Mary-Baring--Later-The-Marchioness-Of-Northampton.html


And article about her marriage:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9907E5DB1530E633A25753C3A96F9C94669FD7CF



Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: kmerov on March 18, 2010, 06:04:14 PM
Thank you very much for clearing that up. :-)

I have always found it strange that Princess Helena was so much against Leopold marrying Caroline Mathilde "Calma" of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg. I don't understand why.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: DssofBelem on September 29, 2012, 02:40:22 PM
Alfred--GDss Olga of Russia (later Queen Olga), GDss Marie's daughter Eugenie, Elizabeth Wied, Tina Oldenburg (until her untimely death)
Arthur--Thyra of Denmark, Frederica (Lily) of Hannover, Marie (Mary) of Hannover
Leopold--Lily of Hannover


Can someone post photos of them? I did not saw a lot of photos of Gdss Olga when young (I mean shortly before she married George I of Greece), and of Elisabeth of Wied & Catherine Petrovna of Oldenburg (and some photos of Thyra of Denmark, Lily & Marie of Hannover would work too!).

Thanks for any help.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Gabriella on September 29, 2012, 04:33:32 PM
Here are some pictures of Thyra of Denmark and Olga Konstantinova eventually Queen Olga of Greece:

Thyra as young woman:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/386px-Tira_of_Denmark_in_1871.jpg)
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/L08911-11-lr-1.jpg)
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/endnuthyra.jpg)

the elder Thyra:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/untitledThyra2.jpg)

with her sister-in-law Queen Olga of Greece:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/ThyramitOlgavonGriechenland.jpg)

Olga as young girl:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/OlgaQueenofGreece_aschild.jpg)

with her mother:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/about1867.jpg)

with her husband George I. of Greece:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/OlgamitGeorg1880iger.jpg)

the elder Olga:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/Queen20Olga.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: CountessKate on September 29, 2012, 05:39:18 PM
Here are some pictures of Fredericka ('Lily') of Hanover:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/German%20and%20Austrian%20courts/LilyHanover-1.jpg) (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/German%20and%20Austrian%20courts/LilyHanover-2.jpg)

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/German%20and%20Austrian%20courts/LilyHanover-3.jpg) (http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/German%20and%20Austrian%20courts/LilyHanover-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: DssofBelem on September 30, 2012, 01:34:24 PM
Thank you all for the photos! Thyra is very pretty, Olga & Lily have beautiful eyes. Surely it was hard for their suitors to choose!
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: DssofBelem on October 02, 2012, 07:39:26 PM
I have always found it strange that Princess Helena was so much against Leopold marrying Caroline Mathilde "Calma" of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg. I don't understand why.

Why was she against? Calma seems to be a very sweet lady and more lively than her plain sister Dona.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Kalafrana on October 03, 2012, 08:00:07 AM
Could it be that Queen Victoria was opposed to Arthur marrying Thyra because she had a child by an equerry in 1871?

Ann
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: CountessKate on October 03, 2012, 11:28:16 AM
Could it be that Queen Victoria was opposed to Arthur marrying Thyra because she had a child by an equerry in 1871?

Ann

I thought Queen Victoria had decided that the Danish connection was too complicated - Princess Alexandra was vehemently anti-German following the Schleswig-Holstein problems which annoyed the Queen and she believed another Danish princess at court would have followed her lead, creating too much pro- and anti-German camps within the royal family.  She also disliked Queen Louise of Denmark extremely, thinking her an intriguing woman.  There is no evidence that a word of Thyra's pregnancy ever got out beyond her immediate family and that of her eventual husband, as it would surely have affected Queen Victoria's view of Thyra herself, who if anything she rather liked. 
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: DNAgenie on October 03, 2012, 08:05:11 PM
Quote
Could it be that Queen Victoria was opposed to Arthur marrying Thyra because she had a child by an equerry in 1871?
Ann

I thought Queen Victoria had decided that the Danish connection was too complicated - Princess Alexandra was vehemently anti-German following the Schleswig-Holstein problems which annoyed the Queen and she believed another Danish princess at court would have followed her lead, creating too much pro- and anti-German camps within the royal family.  She also disliked Queen Louise of Denmark extremely, thinking her an intriguing woman.  There is no evidence that a word of Thyra's pregnancy ever got out beyond her immediate family and that of her eventual husband, as it would surely have affected Queen Victoria's view of Thyra herself, who if anything she rather liked. 

I don't think QV would have been too upset about Thyra having given birth to an illegitimate daughter. I'm sure the Queen knew all about it - she always knew all the gossip in the European royal families and I think there were some veiled references in her letters to Vicky about that time.  She was not a prude, and as long as it stayed secret and didn't cause a public scandal that would have been OK.  As Kalafrana says, QV liked Thyra, but had other reasons for disliking the marriage to Arthur.   
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Kalafrana on October 04, 2012, 01:21:31 AM
'I don't think QV would have been too upset about Thyra having given birth to an illegitimate daughter.'

Oh, I don't know. Women having illegitimate children was something that verged on depravity in Victorian Britain. It was possible for a upper-class woman who was already married to get away with having a child that was not her husband's, provided the husband was prepared to accept it, but not a child wholly outside marriage. My paternal grandmother married her first husband in 1906, three months before the birth of her first child, and was considered practically a fallen woman by her family thereafter. By the time my father arrived in 1928, my grandmother had been widowed and married again, but as a boy he picked up a sense that his mother still wasn't considered 'quite the thing' by some of the relations!

Ann
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: grandduchessella on October 04, 2012, 03:28:17 PM
Arthur himself soured on the idea after meeting Thyra again after several years. I think she had just been ill and was not looking all that wonderful. I'm sure it was a relief to Queen Victoria who probably would've gone along with whomever her favorite son had chosen provided he felt strongly enough about it.

Just as a side note/reminder--please limit photos to 3-4 per post. It can cause some computers to load slowly or perhaps not even display the photos otherwise. Thanks. : )
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Kalafrana on October 05, 2012, 01:09:21 AM
How did Arthur come to marry Louise of Prussia. Did the Empress Frederick (as she became) do some matchmaking?

Ann
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: CountessKate on October 11, 2012, 02:32:11 PM
How did Arthur come to marry Louise of Prussia. Did the Empress Frederick (as she became) do some matchmaking?
Ann

Queen Victoria had her suspicions - "How is it that Louise should become in a few days so attached to Arthur?  Did you and Charlotte not beforehand sing his praises to her?  What I regret is that no one gave me a hint of this as I had so particularly wished Arthur to see others before he engaged himself to anyone".  While it seems certain that the Crown Princess (as she was) was fond of Louise, who she considered to be "by far the icest most sensible and nice of Marianne's girls, the only one who is intimate with our children......and quite brought up by an excellent English governess, a Miss Jackson" and would certainly have made sure that Arthur had opportunities to meet her in Berlin, it was actually QV herself, according to Noble Frankland in his biography of Arthur, who sent Arthur to Berlin as the representative of the British royal family to the marriage of Princess Charlotte, albeit with stern warnings.  Arthur wrote to his mother before he left London, that "I have no wish to be married at present & I quite agree with you that a Prussian Princess would be unadvisable."  However, upon meeting her at dinner three days later, Arthur immediately informed his mother that he thought her "rather pretty" and six days after that, they entered privately into an engagement, subject to the consent of QV.  While the Crown Princess would have been very pleased at the outcome, it does appear as if Arthur was the one who made the running, as while it was likely that Louise would have been disposed to fall in love with a man who was the brother of the Crown Princess who had been very kind to her, and who could take her away from her bullying father and unhappy home, Arthur was primed to resist the "unadvisable" match and he must have had a very strong attraction to Louise.  Though I've always wondered if this was one of the few forms of rebellion Arthur ever made!
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Marc on October 11, 2012, 05:07:27 PM
Thank you very much for clearing that up. :-)

I have always found it strange that Princess Helena was so much against Leopold marrying Caroline Mathilde "Calma" of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg. I don't understand why.

Any more details please? :)
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: eejm on October 11, 2012, 10:39:52 PM
Thank you very much for clearing that up. :-)

I have always found it strange that Princess Helena was so much against Leopold marrying Caroline Mathilde "Calma" of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg. I don't understand why.

Any more details please? :)

Calma was Prince Christian's niece.  After her father's death in 1878, Christian was Calma's guardian, so Leopold should have easily gained his brother-in-law's blessing to marry her.  However, Helena and Christian began to speak of Calma's father forbidding the marriage before his death, although no mention of a union between the two had come about until after his death.  Most likely, Helena and Christian were concerned about Leopold's precarious health and the likelihood that he'd leave Calma a widow. 

As it turned out, Leopold did leave his wife a very young widow, but I'm sure it was really hurtful for him to be turned down for Calma by his own sister and brother in law.  Leopold's son eventually married one of Calma's daughters.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Marc on October 13, 2012, 11:26:43 AM
Thank you very much for clearing that up. :-)

I have always found it strange that Princess Helena was so much against Leopold marrying Caroline Mathilde "Calma" of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg. I don't understand why.

Any more details please? :)

Calma was Prince Christian's niece.  After her father's death in 1878, Christian was Calma's guardian, so Leopold should have easily gained his brother-in-law's blessing to marry her.  However, Helena and Christian began to speak of Calma's father forbidding the marriage before his death, although no mention of a union between the two had come about until after his death.  Most likely, Helena and Christian were concerned about Leopold's precarious health and the likelihood that he'd leave Calma a widow. 

As it turned out, Leopold did leave his wife a very young widow, but I'm sure it was really hurtful for him to be turned down for Calma by his own sister and brother in law.  Leopold's son eventually married one of Calma's daughters.

So,that(protection) was the reason...didn't know,thnx.It's interesting about the union of their children...anybody know if this marriage(Charles and Viktoria-Adelheid) was sort of love match or just another arranged marriage to fulfill something their parents did not have the chance?
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: CountessKate on October 14, 2012, 09:31:46 AM
Quote
It's interesting about the union of their children...anybody know if this marriage(Charles and Viktoria-Adelheid) was sort of love match or just another arranged marriage to fulfill something their parents did not have the chance?

In 'Twelve years at the Imperial German Court', the rather cynical Count Robert von Zedlitz-Trutzschler wrote on the 7th February 1905 that "..the engagement of the Prince of Coburg to Princess Alexandra [sic]of Schleswig Holstein was announced.  The bridal pair look very attractive and rather give the impression of two children.  There is no doubt that the Duke has for some time been in love with the little Princess, but none the less, he was rather serious after the engagement.  The mother-in-law, however, was beaming, and the Empress was very happy.  But the truth is that, to put in good homely language, the little Duke has been caught."  It's never made clear why von Zedlitz-Trutzschler wrote the last sentence, though perhaps it was because he considered Charles too young to have really made his mind up (he was 20); there is no doubt that the Empress favoured a marriage with her neice and would certainly have ensured they had opportunities to get to know one another better.  However, there seemed no coercion involved and his sister Alice wrote firmly that it "was a happy marriage" and he "led a full and happy family life..."  He had had an unhappy time at the German court as he was the butt of much bullying by the Kaiser Wilhelm II, so his marriage and family life might have seemed a pleasant respite.
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Kalafrana on October 15, 2012, 02:34:36 AM
Countess Kate

Thanks for the interesting info about Arthur.

I have yet to lay hands on Noble Frankland's biography of him. Arthur seems to be the least known of Victoria's sons, despite being by far the longest-lived!

Ann
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: CountessKate on October 15, 2012, 07:37:31 AM
There are some interesting details about Arthur and Louise's courtship in Noble Frankland's biography, although Frankland is particularly irritating in paraphrasing in his own text the gist of Arthur's letters to Louise (and to others) rather than quoting verbatim.  He is also rather opaque on Arthur's relationship with Leonie Leslie although he doesn't airbrush it out of the picture.  Another interesting point is that he suggests (without any real supporting evidence) that Thyra would have been happy to receive a proposal from Arthur. 
Title: Re: Possible brides for QV's sons
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on October 16, 2012, 04:31:02 AM
Thyra's necklace looks much like that one

(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb175/silkedorothea/endnuthyra.jpg)

http://www.google.de/imgres?q=duchess+windsor+jewels&um=1&hl=de&client=opera&sa=N&rls=de&tbm=isch&tbnid=mL4TdcDceVszTM:&imgrefurl=http://www.wmagazine.com/jewelry/2007/12/royal_pearls&docid=O-OVDsR6WzAwpM&imgurl=http://www.wmagazine.com/images/jewelry/2007/12/jear_royal_01_v.jpg&w=300&h=304&ei=6Sd9UNLVLcjN4QShi4CYDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=334&vpy=238&dur=250&hovh=226&hovw=223&tx=141&ty=113&sig=117940165638333806383&page=2&tbnh=169&tbnw=189&start=24&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:16,s:20,i:180&biw=1256&bih=699