Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Windsors => Topic started by: alixaannencova on April 02, 2009, 05:24:10 PM

Title: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 02, 2009, 05:24:10 PM
I have spent years collecting together a personal library of books relating specifically to the ducal dynasties of the five peerages of creation set out above.

The present holders of such non royal Dukedoms number just twenty four individuals, which makes them an extraordinarily elite social group. I have long been fascinated by the families that have or had a Duke as their dynastic head, and have spent quite a lot of time and resources exploring and gathering as much data as I can on these rare creatures and their progeny.

I even contemplated setting up my own website dedicated to coalescing as much data as I could about the Ducal families, and acquired a suitable domain name etc, but I am not into IT and website creating, so this project never got very far!

But, I was wondering whether or not, there would enough people here on this marvelous forum, who would like me to start a thread about these families. I envisage that it would have to be limited to just Dukes from the above realms, otherwise it would become a monolith if all of Burkes was included, and other European Ducal Houses were included likewise.

I could have simply started individual topic threads for each of the twenty four extant Ducal families and others for the extinct variety, but I thought it may be quite a good idea, considering the amount of data I, and (hopefully) others may have to contribute , to create a seperate thread all together with individual topic threads within...so to speak!

Any thoughts would be very appreciated and I would be happy to start off at the beginning with a 'Norfolk' thread followed by 'Somerset' and so on..... if enough people would like me to and if the powers that be feel it may be positive and of use!

Cheers

Toots
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Prince_Lieven on April 03, 2009, 07:03:39 PM
It's definitely an interesting subject Toots! Norfolk is the oldest one, if I remember right, followed by Somerset and then . . . . one of the one's created by Charles II? Grafton or Beaufort or St Albans? The dukedoms of England come first in precedence, followed by Scotland, Great Britain, the UK, then Ireland, I think . . .correct me if I'm wrong Toots. There's only two Irish dukedoms left - Leinster and Abercorn.

There's a new book about the Howard family (dukes of Norfolk) at the moment called 'House of Treason' (I think). They definitely had quite a chequered history, especially with the Tudors . . . the dukedom was attainted and re-instated several times I think! The Dukes of Norfolk  of Tudor times seemed to personify the 'over mighty subject' that was so abhorrent to the Tudors, especially once they'd gained a strain of Plantagenet blood (through Eleanor Stafford, wife of the 3rd duke [I think!] and descendant of Edward III). Great family to start the discussion with!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 04, 2009, 12:37:23 AM
Thanks Prince for your enthusiastic response!

Here is a taster about the Norfolks....I have heaps of stuff I could post...but thought best to just throw in a tit bit!

The Dukes of Norfolk cr. 1483 - This Dukedom is the oldest of non Royal origin in existence in Britain. The Howards were modest landowners until one Sir Robert Howard of Tendring, made a spectacular dynastic marriage to Lady Margaret Mowbray, daughter of the 1st Duke of Norfolk of the first creation. The Mowbrays were by this time one of the most illustrious dynasties in all England, having made brilliant marriages in turn to grand daughters of both Edward I and Henry III. It was with Sir Robert's marriage to Lady Margaret, that the Howards really emerged from the modesty of the landed gentry and began their rise to the very apex of society.

In due course, Sir Robert and Lady Margaret Mowbray's son, John Howard would benefit greatly from the deaths of his maternal first and second cousins once removed, John de Mowbray, 4th Duke of Norfolk and his only child Lady Anne Mowbray. Howard had, no doubt been made aware of the precarious instability and dangers that went with such power and wealth as a Dukedom during the fifteenth century from the example of his Mowbray kin. His grandfather the Mowbray 1st Duke had been metaphorically taken down a peg or two and was stripped of the Dukedom and Earl Marshalship, when he took the losing side in the feud between Richard II, the Duke of Gloucester and the future Henry IV. It was John Howard's uncle who was restored to Earl Marshalship in 1412 and in 1425 was restored to the Dukedom of Norfolk.

 John Howard's first cousin, the son and successor of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk, perhaps influenced his cousin to join the Yorkist cause during the Wars of the Roses thus providing Howard with a lucrative link to the court of Edward IV. The Mowbray 3rd Duke was a staunch supporter of Edward IV as was his only child and successor, the 4th and last Mowbray Duke of Norfolk. His death in 1476 brought the Mowbray Dukedom to an end, but his only child Lady Anne Mowbray was subsequently a great heiress, having inherited the vast Mowbray patrimony, and she was swiftly married off aged five, to Edward IV's second son, Richard of Shrewsbury, Duke of York, then aged four. Anne died in 1481 and her widower was made Duke of Norfolk of the 2nd creation. In 1483 Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk was confirmed by Act of Parliament as legal successor to his dead wife's estates, to the detriment and exclusion of her rightful heirs John Howard and William, Viscount Berkeley. This legislation probably lead Howard to subsequently support Richard III's move to have himself proclaimed King after the disappearance of Edward V and Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk.

It is interesting to note that at the time that Edward V and his brother were conveyed to the Tower of London on May 19th and June 16th 1483 respectively, the Constable of the Tower was none other than John Howard. On 28th June following, three days after Richard took the throne, John Howard was created 1st Duke of Norfolk of the third creation and given a sizable portion of the Mowbray patrimony with which to support his new status.

On three occasions 1485, 1547 and 1572 the Howards have lost the Dukedom of Norfolk, but they have successfully regained this illustrious peerage thrice more in 1514, 1553 and 1660 through sheer labour, chicanery, shrewdness and dogged determination.
   
 The Howards have proved to be one of the most tenacious and enduring families in British History and have held  'twenty five different patents of creation to separate peerages.' Which in itself is a remarkable feat. 

With two Queen Consorts of England, both grand daughters of the 2nd Duke of Norfolk and a canonized saint, the son and heir of the 4th Duke amongst their ranks, and generations of other colourful and fascinating personages to learn about, the Dukes of Norfolk endure to this day.



 


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Prince_Lieven on April 04, 2009, 12:27:43 PM
Fascinating stuff, Toots! Am I right in thinking they're also the only ducal family to remain Catholic? I think they've been nominally Anglican in the past, for political purposes, but have aways been regarded as an old, Catholic family. They were definitely a family of limitless ambition - as you mention, they've produced two queens of England (Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard, nieces of the 3rd duke) and there were even plots to marry the 4th duke to Mary, Queen of Scots, and put them both on the throne of England. The duke remains Earl Marshall to this day, I believe? Nowadays they have the double-barrel surname of 'Fitzalan-Howard', reflecting their acquisition of the earldom of Arundel, one of the oldest in England.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 04, 2009, 07:57:00 PM
Dukes of Norfolk cr. 1483 - Continued:-

In 1842 the 13th Duke of Norfolk encouraged his sons to add the name of Fitzalan to their surname. This was inspired by the pseudo-feudalism that was proving highly popular at the time! During the nineteenth century many patrician families employed genealogists to enhance their rolls of pedigree. It was fashionable to dig out links to Normans who came over with Conqueror or arrived in the century following, no matter how tenuous the evidence in some cases. The Russell Dukes of Bedford and the Seymour/St Maur Dukes of Somerset were amongst the Ducal Houses who were noticeably culprits in this fad. In the case of the Howards, such dexterous and questionable genealogical practices were wholly unnecessary, as they were lineal female line descendants not only of the Bigods, de Veres, Staffords and Mowbrays to name but a few, but also of the equally illustrious and impressively antique Fitzalans, Earl of Arundel. Further motivation was no doubt the Norfolks decision to establish Arundel, the ancient seat of their Fitzalan ancestors, as the principal ducal seat after the sale of Worksop in the famed Dukeries of Nottinghamshire.

Fot the sake of continuity I shall now return to the 1st Duke and his successor, and their places in the annals of this illustrious family:-
 
John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk proved himself a loyal supporter of Richard III. Even in light of his possible involvement in the disappearance of Edward V and Richard Duke of York, Norfolk's adherence to Richard III's cause did much to motivate a remarkable amount of damage limitation to his reputation after the Battle of Bosworth. Where the 1st Earl of Derby is regarded as a treacherous turncoat to this day, and the 4th Earl of Northumberland's hesitation during the battle still provokes raised eyebrows as to his loyalty to Richard III, Norfolk stood firm and perished along with his King on the field, but whilst the King's body was treated with relative ignominy, the Duke's body was conveyed back to Norfolk and interred with appropriate to his rank.
   Even though Norfolk died in the cause of the losing King, his stalwart loyalty would remain a key note to his future reputation as ducal progenitor of the Howards. He was posthumously attainted but only after his son and heir the Earl of Surrey, had held the Dukedom briefly, the latter, after several years in the Tower was released the attainder against him and his father reversed, and he was restored to the Earldom of Surrey and his wife's estates, during a period when the pragmatic Henry VII began to consolidate his position by actively winning over former opponents. But the Dukedom and the Howard-Mowbray estates continued to be withheld, probably in a bid to encourage a 'stick and carrot' incentive for Surrey, who subsequently continued his obeisance to Henry Tudor as he strove methodically and ably in his mission to restore his family's fortunes.

Over the following three decades, Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey de jure 2nd Duke of Norfolk, worked tirelessly and shrewdly to regain his alienated patrimony, finally achieving this goal in 1509. Thereafter, he worked industriously to enhance and consolidate the restoration and furtherance of his family's fortunes. He served Henry VII with a loyalty akin to that of his father to Richard III. From 1489, shortly after his release he was appointed Chief Justice in Eyre North of the Trent and in 1490 became Vice Warden of the East and Middle Marches. His duties in the North saw him successfully quell revolts inspired by increased taxes and in 1500 he returned south and to court were he was admitted to the Privy Council and subsequently appointed Lord Treasurer, a position he held for the following twenty one years.

  With the accession of the young Henry VIII, Lord Treasurer Surrey continued in office and was appointed Earl Marshal for the coronation. Surrey was primarily a Knight and soldier, having grown up during the darkest days of the Wars of the Roses, but he nonetheless possessed a more rounded character than that of a mere military commander, as proven by his leadership as Lord Treasurer. According to John Martin Robinson, the author of the primary Howard family history, Surrey found in Wolsey a rival, who resented Surrey's increasing prominence at court and began to use his machiavellian crafts to undermine and restrict Surrey's access to the King in the years following. In 1513 as Lord Treasurer, Surrey was apparently prevented from accompany Henry VIII on campaign to France, due to the devious designs of Wolsey, who wished to keep the war mongering King and Surrey apart at the time. Left behind in England to assist Queen Katherine in the governance of the realm, Surrey was thus able to rush north with his sons Thomas and Edmund in his retinue and resoundingly defeat James IV and the Scots at Flodden in the most spectacular triumph of his career and led to his restoration as 2nd Duke of Norfolk.

Even this, the epoch of his career was to be clouded for Norfolk by Wolsey's ever increasing pre-eminence at court. In 1521 at the age of nearly eighty, Norfolk was appointed 'Guardian of the Realm' when Henry and Wolsey crossed the Channel to attend the Field of the Cloth of Gold. Soon afterwards, probably at Wolsey's instigation Norfolk's old friend and the father of his elder son and heir's wife, Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham was arrested on charges of treasonous acts. Forced to act as Lord High Steward during the trial, Norfolk oversaw the downfall of Buckingham and apparently 'burst into tears' when the verdict was reached by his peers and he was required to pronounce sentence.

Now, a man of great age, Norfolk withdrew from court, he resigned all his appointments, retaining only that of  Earl Marshal and he retired to Norfolk, where he lived on in splendid dotage at Framlingham, the great seat of his Bigod and Mowbray forefathers, dying in 1524 having succeeded in leaving his successor the great patrimony regained through tireless and admirable labour. 



Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 04, 2009, 10:28:47 PM
Thomas, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, well what can one say about this extraordinary man?

  He was twelve years old when his grand father was slain at Bosworth and subsequently attainted. Yet, young Thomas would no doubt have learned the arts of self preservation, pragmatism and the rewards of methodical labour from the example of his remarkable father.
 As uncle of Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard,and as a son in law through his first wife, of Edward IV and then of the tragic 3rd Duke of Buckingham through his second marriage, Thomas 3rd Duke of Norfolk is a figure who saw his family rise ever further to the very apex of preeminence and power during his tenure as Duke and also saw it sink into the very darkest nadir of ruin.
  He saw his own father pronounce the death sentence against his hapless father in law, an episode that perhaps prepared and hardened the 3rd Duke for when it came to the fate of his two nieces in the future. He watched and encouraged those nieces, pawns in a greater dynastic scheme, rise to the most exalted of all positions, and he then took part in their respective downfalls as well as witnessing that of his own foolish son and heir.
    He himself, came to within a literal hair's breadth of feeling the caress of the axe blade upon his own neck, saved only by the timely death of his King and former nephew by marriage, Henry VIII. Only with the death of Henry's Protestant son and successor, Edward VI and the Catholic Mary Tudor's accession after Lady Jane Grey's nine day tenure of the throne, did the eighty year old 3rd Duke reemerge from the Tower, where his father had also once languished, and where his grandfather as Constable had 'welcomed' Edward V and Richard Duke of York some seventy years earlier. Such was the nature of life during the uncertain and often dangerous times during which the 3rd Duke of Norfolk lived and survived.

At the age of twenty two as his father was rebuilding the family fortunes, Thomas future 3rd Duke of Norfolk made a spectacular marriage that eclipsed that of his great grandfather to Lady Margaret Mowbray, when he married Henry VII's sister in law Princess Anne of York. Although this marriage proved fruitless and Anne brought no dowry into the marriage, it established a familial link between the Tudor and Howard dynasties that was perhaps the catalyst for what would in time become something of a 'pet project' to reestablish, maintain and nurture for Thomas and his siblings.

In 1512, the widowed Thomas married for the second time, selecting once again a bride of impeccable pedigree with plenty of blue blood coursing through her veins. Lady Elizabeth Stafford was the daughter of Edward Stafford, 3rd Duke of Buckingham and his wife, a daughter of the 4th Earl of Northumberland of Bosworth infamy! The Staffords boasted descent from Edward III's sons, John of Gaunt and Thomas of Woodstock, as well as from such illustrious dynasties as the Beauchamps, the Nevilles, the de Bohuns and the de Clares. This marriage produced the requisite heir and spare as well as a daughter, but eventually the couple lived apart, due in part to the future 3rd Duke's rather public attachment to the daughter of the Steward at his estate of Kenninghall in Norfolk.

Like his father, Thomas came from from 'an hereditary military caste,' but he did not emerge to the fore until after the accession of Henry VIII, who was keen to achieve military glory, particularly during the early years of his reign. In the year of his second marriage, Thomas took part in the disastrous Guienne campaign whilst his younger brother Lord Edward as Lord Admiral commanded the Channel Fleet. In the following year, Lord Edward perished in a skirmish off Brest and Thomas took his place. He was subsequently prevented from securing the Channel for the crossing of a great expeditionary force by prevailing winds and incurred the King's ire for his troubles. Inauspiciously, he remained behind with his father and younger surviving brother when Henry crossed and took part in the Battles of the Spurs and the capture of Tournai.

Therefore, fate allowed Thomas to be present to take an active role in implementing the strategy that saw the English under his father's command defeat the Scots at Flodden and see his father restored to the Dukedom of Norfolk in the following year, Thomas consequently gained his own reward as he became Earl of Surrey. Until his accession to the Dukedom, Thomas continued as Lord Admiral and served on occasion as Lord Deputy of Ireland amongst other appointments.

With his accession to the Dukedom in 1524, Thomas really came into his own as a man of extraordinary ambition, who would in time act so ruthlessly, that today his reputation is permanently tainted. The scheming began in earnest with the onset of the difficulties that Wolsey experienced during Henry VIII's moves to have his marriage to Katherine of Aragon annulled. In retrospect, it is hardly surprising that Norfolk would not look upon his father's arch rival's gradual fall from grace with some semblance of satisfaction. But in that heated and precarious climate of opportunity and change, Norfolk began to hone his own statecraft, and is believed to have been privy if not responsible for hatching the plans to encourage his nieces, Mary and Anne Boleyn into the disgruntle King's arms.
   As is well documented elsewhere, Norfolk was to see Anne triumph and marry their King, and at this time, it is supposed that Norfolk hoped to use his niece to forward a proposal to marry his heir, Surrey to Anne's new step daughter the future Mary I. In addition, Norfolk managed to arrange a match between his own daughter and the King's illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy, Duke of Richmond thus establishing another tentacle like familial link between the King and his family. It must have seemed at this time as though Norfolk and the Howards were unassailable. But Norfolk came to realize that he could not rely on his niece to play an acquiescent and useful role in his grand designs. Anne Boleyn drew away from her uncle and a family fracture began to grow, a fracture that would eventually fester into a wound that would scupper many of Norfolk's future designs and divide his House.

I am unsure about the direction in which we should go here, as this is a thread about the Dukes of all twenty four extant house et al. and not just about the Norfolks? I fear that the ties that bound the Norfolks and the Somersets to the Tudors, Mary Queen of Scots and in the case of the Seymours in particular, James VI and I, may bog this thread down and I will try not to delve too deeply into the mire of intrigues that followed.

This is why I was wondering whether this should be sub divided into separate threads or not depending upon what sort of direction we wish to travel. I guess that there will be heaps of members who will like the Tudor period Dukes and ancestors of extant ducal families, and that others will not be so enthused, but the latter members will no doubt find their interests fired by the ducal personalities of the following centuries. I dare say, many will love learning and sharing anecdotes about those characters who figured during the Belle epoch in particular!

I mean I could easily and quite happily sit here for hours on end writing up bios, thoughts and stats about the each Duke of each 'House' in turn, which seems frightfully self indulgent to me!!!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 04, 2009, 11:19:03 PM
Sorry Prince Lieven...yes the Norfolks are the only ducal dynasty that are known to have remained faithful to Rome, with the odd conformity on the part of a couple of members of the family, including the notorious 'Jockey' Norfolk, boon companion of George IV when he was Prince Regent!

The present Duke retains his seat in the Lords by virtue of his position as Hereditary Earl Marshal. David, 7th and present Marquess of Cholmondely also retains his seat by virtue of his position as Hereditary Lord Great Chamberlain. Neither Norfolk nor Cholmondely required election to remain in the Lords. The Dukes of Norfolk in their capacity as Earl Marshal were and are currently responsible for arranging all manner of state occasions, from state funerals to 'state' Royal Weddings, to the state opening of Parliament.
   In the past, Dukes as hereditary Earls Marshal have on occasion, incited concerns as to their abilities to carry out such complicated and painstaking duties, but in the last hundred years, successive Dukes have gained enormous respect for their finite knowledge and abilities. A further duty as Earl Marshal is to oversee the College of Arms which is the only body in Britain permitted to legally grant armorials.

I believe that Bernard Duke was very keen to make sure his successor learnt from experience as well as form his example in carrying out his duties! He arranged the coronation of 1937 when he was just twenty nine and was responsible thereafter for arranging all public state occasions until his death. When it became apparent he would not have a son of his own, Bernard Duke made sure his heir assumptive until 1972, heir presumptive thereafter, his second cousin once removed, Miles, Lord Beaumont and Howard of Glossop was suitably well groomed for the job he would eventually inherit with the Dukedom in 1975.


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 05, 2009, 04:38:31 PM
I am so tempted to roll on to another dynasty, such as the St Albans clan (my favourite family descended from Charles II), the Osborne Dukes of Leeds (My absolute favourite ducal family of all!) or the Churchill Dukes of Marlborough (IMHO the ducal dynasty that has produced a line of 'unpleasant' but all the more interesting characters with 'remarkabe' consistency over the last three centuries, as well as the 'Greatest Briton' of them all!!!!!)

But I shall try to remain disciplined and continue with the Norfolks for now!

I note that I have not provided any information about the wives of the 1st and 2nd Dukes, so will do so here.

John 1st Duke (c.1424 - killed at Bosworh 1485) married twice. His first wife was Katherine de Moleyns, whose family were another of impeccable Norman descent and were I believe, Shire Knights of Buckinghamshire. This marriage produced the 2nd Duke. Until 1461 Katherine's married name would have been Mistress Howard, thereafter when her husband was Knighted she became Katherine, Lady Howard. John married 2ndly, one Margaret Chedworth (1436 - 1494) who appears to have had at least one child with Howard, a daughter, Katherine who married and had issue. I should have added that as a interesting footnote, in Shakespeare's 'Richard III', on the eve of the Battle of Bosworth the character of the 1st Duke receives an anonymous note warning him that Richard III was being betrayed, it read as follows:-

'Jockey of Norfolk, be not so bold,
For Dickon, thy Master is bought and sold
.'

Thomas 2nd Duke (1443 - 1524) married cousins, firstly Elizabeth (c.1445 - 1497) and then Agnes Tylney (1477 - 1545). Elizabeth, Countess of Surrey produced several surviving children. including her eldest son, who succeeded as 3rd Duke (1472 - 1554), a younger son Lord Edward (1476/77 - 1513) who perished during a skirmish with the French fleet off Brest, when he threw himself into the sea rather than be taken alive! Another surviving son Lord Edmund Howard (? - 1538) was father of Henry VIII's fifth Queen, Katherine Howard. One of Elizabeth's daughters, her namesake, (c.1480 - 1438) married the ambitious Sr Thomas Boleyn, who would later become Earl of Wiltshire and Ormonde. Of their numerous children, only three survived to adulthood, Mary, Anne who preceded her cousin Katherine as Henry VIII's second Queen, and George, Viscount Rochford.

Agnes, Duchess of Norfolk, who married her cousin's widower four months after Elizabeth's death produced several more children for her aging husband. William (c.1510 - 1573) who was implicated in helping his half niece, Katherine Howard in her purported 'adulterous' affairs and was subsequently arrested but later pardoned. He gradually returned to royal favour over time. In 1554 he successfully held London during the Wyatt rebellion and was rewarded when he was created Baron Howard of Effingham and became Lord High Admiral. It was through his descendants that the Howard dynasty acquired the Earldom of Notingham cr.1597 ext. 1681 and the Earldom of Effingham cr. 1st 1731 ext. 1816 and 2nd 1837. Williams younger brother Lord Thomas Howard (c.1511 - 1537) proved as rash as his half great nephew, the future 4th Duke in his lofty matrimonial ambitions. Lord Thomas incurred the wrath of Henry VIII when he embarked on a clandestine misalliance with the King's niece Lady Margaret Douglas, the future mother of Lord Henry Darnley! Lord Thomas was thrown into the Tower and died there for this misdemeanor. Several of Agnes' daughters made marriages of considerable dynastic importance. Yet another Lady Elizabeth married Henry Radclyffe, 2nd Earl of Sussex, Lady Katherine married Henry Daubney, 1st Earl of Bridgewater, Lady Dorothy married Edward Stanley, 3rd Earl of Derby and Lady Anne married John de Vere, 14th Earl of Oxford.

Agnes is well known to historians for her role in the upbringing and fate of her step grand daughter, Katherine Howard, who lived with her for periods of her life.

There, I hope I have provided enough data about these early chatelaines of the House of Howard and younger children too?!? Though, I am sure other members with firmer knowledge of this particular period in British History will be able to flesh out my rather scant tit bits here!!!!


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 05, 2009, 07:24:03 PM
3rd Duke of Norfolk continued:-

Now I can bring in the next Ducal dynasty, as I carry on babbling about the ruthless 3rd Duke of Norfolk and his seemingly tireless schemes to bind his progeny to the Crown of England. It seems to have been a bit of an obsession with the Howards during this period in History. Starting the the 3rd Duke's first marriage to Henry VII's sister in law, Anne, then the marriage of Anne Boleyn, her uncle's increasingly inflated ambition to see his heir married to Mary Tudor, when this came to nothing he then brokered marriage between his daughter Mary to the King's bastard. Then there is the purported marriage between Lord Thomas Howard and Margaret Tudor's daughter. The ultimate matrimonial prize was to be coveted by the 4th Duke, who thought himself worthy of the hand of Mary, Queen of Scots! For this and suspected plots against his cousin, Elizabeth I, the 4th Duke not only lost his head but for the last time, brought the House of Howard to the brink of ruin, through his folly and grandiose ambitions.

The example set by Anne Boleyn and her family in securing for her the consort's crown paved the way for others to begin to nurture similar aspirations as Anne's star began to wane. At this juncture, as the 3rd Duke of Norfolk first tried to breach the gulf between himself and his increasingly distant and beleaguered niece, and Thomas Cromwell, the man who replaced Wolsey, as the King's principal adviser, other figures at court began to jostle for position, ready to take advantage of a weakening in the power base that was the House of Howard. Into this maelstrom of political intrigue and religious upheaval, stepped the Seymours, a family of Shire knights of Wiltshire. They were akin to the gentry of the 'military caste' from which the Howards themselves had emerged less then a century before with the Mowbray marriage.
  The Seymours would go one better in much shorter time, as they did not marry into the aristocracy as an entree into that rarefied world of coronets and great landed interests, but instead vaulted straight to the top of the greasy pole by managing to marry one of their lasses to the King himself. Where the Howards had set the example over several generation, by winning, losing and then winning back their coronet and position through a series of carefully planned dynastic unions, a painstaking strategy of craft and a proven track record of loyal service to three successive monarchs over three generations, the Seymours must have appeared relative 'upstart' nobodies, from the very moment Jane Seymour daughter of Sir John Seymour of Wolfhall and her brothers began to draw attention to themselves at court.

At this time, the 3rd Duke of Norfolk was finding his position increasingly difficult to maintain. In a repeat of the rivalry that had fermented between his father and Wolsey, the 3rd Duke found in Thomas Cromwell, his own nemesis. Having succeeded in orchestrating Wolsey's downfall,Norfolk had failed to capitalize on his promotion as the Cardinal's replacement as Henry's chief adviser, due to his lack of ability as a statesman. His own lack of success in the protracted divorce proceedings of the King and Katherine of Aragon, probably led to his being marginalized and allowed for the rise to prominence of the brilliantly crafty and able lawyer, Cromwell. Perhaps because of these shifting sands of power at court, Norfolk instead began his campaign to bind his family to the Crown in other ways. Hence he encouraged his niece in her relationship with the King and she in turn would initially prove a highly useful ally in his schemes to enhance the Howard name. Apparently, relations between uncle and niece were volatile, she finding him selfish and untrustworthy and he in turn finding her use of colourful language in heated exchanges, shocking on one particular occasion! As relations between Henry and Anne became increasingly strained, I dare say Norofolk, ever the pragmatist stood back and reappraised his niece's position and his own!
 
  Anne's more radical views on the issue of religion is purported to have put a particularly severe strain on their relationship in later years, and knowing Norfolk, Anne's inability to produce a healthy male heir after nearly three years of marriage, probably hastened his decision to drop any remaining support for her that their familial links may have previously maintained.  His subsequent callousness during her trial as Lord High Steward, is one of the first tangible examples of just how ruthless the 3rd Duke of Norfolk could be, when the preservation of his own position was at stake.
 
 Thinking about things generally, it seems rather fortuitous to me, that perhaps some of these ramblings, may have been covered in the miniseries 'The Tudors'! I have yet to see series three, but hope to soon! Although I did find the liberties taken for purposes of so called artistic license very annoying in the earlier series!!!!

Anyway, back to Norfolk after the downfall of Anne Boleyn. Now his rivalry with Cromwell really heated up! The Seymours had won the prize and were in the ascent. With the birth of a male heir, Jane Seymour secured positions of enviable intimacy and influence for her kin at court. Here began the greatest of rivalries ever to occur in English History, between non Royal ducal Houses. Whilst the Seymour brothers, Edward and Thomas strutted about, albeit for a while in mourning, at their brother-in-law's court, the latter by now Earl of Hertford, Norfolk tenaciously maintained his own place at court and during the period 1536 and 1540 he worked hard to continue to keep the King's favour.

Although a reactionary, Norfolk's role in the suppression of the Pilgrimage of Grace in the North is seen as further evidence of his ruthless self serving character. Whilst the Seymour brothers appeared to cosy up to Cromwell, enough to actually marry a sister, Elizabeth to Cromwell's heir in 1538, Norfolk carried out his duties assiduously, and with typical Howard guile he waited and watched as Cromwell embarked on the road that would end in his downfall.

It is interesting to note that amongst Gardiner's state papers, and dated to around 1538 is a commentary which describes almost all of the incumbent Dukes, Marquesses and Earls of the realm, Norfolk is described as:

 '72 years, the chief and best captain.....The Earl of Oxford, of 66 years, a man of great power and little experience. The Earl of Arundel, 60, a man of great power, little wit and less experience......The Earl of Derby, the greatest of power and land, young, and a child in wisdom and half a fool....The Earl of Essex (Thomas Cromwell), an old man, of little wit and less experience, without power. The Earl of Sussex, 50, of small power and little discretion.....The Earl of Bath, old and foolish.....The Earl of Hertford (Edward Seymour), young and wise, of small power...'


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Vecchiolarry on April 05, 2009, 09:49:14 PM
Hi,

Enjoyable and educational as well as entertaining - all of it....
A lot of reading but I've never minded that as long as I'm learning something.

I've been to Arundel Castle once in 1958 and our group spotted a man walking in the garden, whom our guide told us was the Duke of Norfolk.  He could have been for all I know, or he could have been just the gardiner!!
Great castle!!

Alix, just keep on whatever choice you make, whether the Norfolks or another, as long as they're identified in bold as you've been doing at the top of each posting.

It's good to have a new topic, as is this one;  and I'm very happy with the one on the Queens of Bohemia by another contributor also.
New fodder both of them for the brain...

Larry
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 05, 2009, 11:09:20 PM
3rd Duke of Norfolk continued;-

I really do want to move on from the 3rd Duke of Norfolk, but no gaps allowed!

Personally, I have overdosed on the Tudor period, starting decades ago in childhood, in a relatively good old fashioned prep school where, the Tudors were the favoured area of study to really try and capture the interest of us wee ones and snare us into lifelong interests in History generally! In my case it worked, but I eventually discovered following eras which have become much more piquant pet interests to me!

Anyway, back to the grindstone so to speak! To any kind readers here, remember this is a very 'potted' version of events!!! I would love others to join in with more 'insightfull' textual contributions too if possible!

So by 1538 Norfolk was still teetering on the summit of his powers against all the odds. He loyalty may have been suspected by both his King and Cromwell, yet Norfolk managed to cling on to his position. His activities during the Pilgrimage of Grace requires deeper analysis. In recent times, historians have argued that Norfolk chose to see the rising as a form of revolt against the crown, rather than as a religious movement. Empathetic though he may have been to the people,  in such matters relating to the Reformation, Norfolk chose the crown over either the church or the People. In remaining loyal to the King, Norfolk escaped censure at the time, or at least that is what historians have hypothesized. But another less palatable but equally realistic motivation behind his part in the suppression of the Pilgrimage, is possible. It is speculated that Norfolk, when his own position was in jeopardy, demonstrated once again his instinct for consummate self preservation, with what some regard as another glaring example of his putting his temporal powers before his personal, spiritual and moral scruples.

It is interesting to speculate that Henry VIII had no real desire to neuter Norfolk at this time. Politically, as the Reformation proceeded, it would have been natural for the King to wish to maintain some semblance of the status quo within the ranks of his court. Perhaps it was a case of tolerating an able Norfolk as nominal leader of reactionary court faction, rather than to risk  creating a dangerous void which would have left Cromwell, Cranmer, and their acolytes, the Seymours amongst them to reap the benefits. Henry VIII may have broken with Rome, but it appears he was not prepared to embrace what were still regarded at that time as heretic practices at the time. The Act of the Six Articles passed in 1539 saw Norfolk and the conservatives win the first contest in the Reformation of the Church, and ensure the continued adherence to all the important doctrines and practices of the 'old religion.'

The failure of a grand Lutheran alliance envisaged through marriage to Anne of Cleves, led Norfolk to personally arrest the author of this disastrous opus at the Council table in June 1540. With Cromwell's subsequent execution, Norfolk's position appeared secure. He was once again the King's most trusted adviser, the only fly in the ointment being the continued presence of the Prince of Wales' maternal uncles, Edward Seymour, Earl of Hertford and Sir Thomas Seymour.

These two young men were contemporaries of Norfolk's son and heir, Henry Howard, Earl of Surrey. During the following six years, Surrey would become Hertford's principal rival in a dangerous struggle to secure power in the event of the King's death and the prospect of a Regency.  

Surrey, a man born with a multitude of gifts dazzled like a modern day 'bright young thing' for a time. Born to inherit the premier Dukedom of the realm, vast estates including the Liberty of Norfolk and married to Francis de Vere, daughter of the Earl of Oxford, who was second in precedence only to the Premier Earl of the realm, Lord Arundel, Surrey's future seemed promising in the aftermath of the execution of Cromwell. He wrote poetry, was a patron of the arts, went on campaign as a soldier, in fact he was the quintessential Renaissance 'Earl' who promised to gild his illustrious inheritance with the trappings of leaning and culture, that his predecessors had had little time for in their quest to establish the foundations upon which their house had risen.

Norfolk meantime had discovered another dynastic project. His niece, Catherine Howard, by all accounts, pretty, acquiescent and good natured had inflamed the ardour of the King, when she had been pressed into waiting to his brief fourth consort, Anne of Cleves. Apparently, Catherine's own family privately doubted her ability to deal with so august and unpredictable a mate. Nevertheless, the King was determined and young Catherine became Norfolk's second niece to sit upon the consort's throne. Although at the time, Norfolk's only real rival for power was Cranmer, the Duke appears to have had little direct influence in the the King's fifth marriage. Perhaps Norfolk was hedging his bets, until his niece produced a spare male heir, after which he may have become enthusiastic in cultivating and nurturing relations with the charming but rather naive young Queen.

With his almost prescient ability for self preservation, Norfolk was able to remain aloof from his niece's subsequent downfall, and is said to have actually cried tears of sympathy for the King when Catherine's adultery was unearthed. Apparently Norfolk was also heard to laugh when sentence was passed upon the former Queen. (I find this shocking...and wonder whether it is perhaps merely propaganda inspired folk lore developed to blacken Norfolk's name in the years following?) Norfolk and the rest of his brood were lucky to have escaped unharmed in the aftermath of Catherine's disgrace and execution.

Over the closing years of the increasingly tyrannical King's reign, Norfolk acted as Captain General of the Army and lad a lucrative raid in the eastern Border. The flare up hostilities with France led Norfolk and Surrey over the Channel and whilst Surrey, young and enthusiastically supportive of the defence of Bolougne, Norfolk advocated relinquishing the port, with his usual shrewd assessment, being proved right when a treaty was negotiated for England by none other that Edward Seymour Earl of Hertford.

In the last month of 1546 Surrey was arrested and charged with high treason, for rashly quartering the arms of Edward the Confessor with his own. In itself this was a crime, insinuating that Surrey was heralding his own place in the succession to the throne, but to gravely ill King, a hulk of flesh closeted in his bed, no doubt acutely aware of his own ebbing mortality, as he languished in agony from his putrefying leg and struggled to endure, this folly probably incited a rally of wrath. Hertford probably took full advantage of Surry's impetuousness and was perhaps instrumental in setting in motion the arrest of his most dangerous rival Norfolk. The Duke, now approaching his seventy fourth year was subsequently arrested, attainted and charged with treason. It appears that Hertford and his followers, fearing Norfolk's power, wished to remove him once and for all from the theatre of government, and to be seen to do so with the assent of the King, rather during a ensuing Regency. Politically it was a highly shrewd move by Somerset, in his scheme to end the Howards run of luck.





Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 06, 2009, 12:15:40 AM
Hi,

Enjoyable and educational as well as entertaining - all of it....
A lot of reading but I've never minded that as long as I'm learning something.

I've been to Arundel Castle once in 1958 and our group spotted a man walking in the garden, whom our guide told us was the Duke of Norfolk.  He could have been for all I know, or he could have been just the gardiner!!
Great castle!!

Alix, just keep on whatever choice you make, whether the Norfolks or another, as long as they're identified in bold as you've been doing at the top of each posting.

It's good to have a new topic, as is this one;  and I'm very happy with the one on the Queens of Bohemia by another contributor also.
New fodder both of them for the brain...

Larry



Oh Bu**er!!!!!! *%!$$>!!!!!

I exceeded the 7500 characters in my last post by heaps!!!! Very annoying as I can see no way to save 'exceeding' blurb!

On a happier note... many thanks Larry for you kind words of encouragement! It was lovely to read when I finally emerged from my previous post! I will try to make things a bit less wordy...as I guess it may be a little daunting otherwise! But I  must confess that I find myself getting completely carried away here. Even banging on about the Howards, a dynasty which I have never really warmed to, if the truth be told!

Never mind! I finally finished my waffle about the 3rd Duke of Norfolk and will dash it off here from memory....then I may take a wee break and think about the 4th of this illustrious line and how best to make his story fun to read as well as hopefully useful!!!

3rd Duke of Norfolk continued to his death (Finally!!!)

Surrey was executed on 19th January 1547. His father was languishing nearby in his own cell, awaiting a similar ignoble end. But miraculously it was the King who drew his last breath first, some nine days later. Norfolk was apparently due to be executed the following day, but fate intervened in this instance. Hertford, who would soon become the Premier and only Duke of realm when he made himself Duke of Somerset, with rare political shrewdness and perhaps recognizing the positive impression a semblance of leniency toward an aging broken man, would convey as he took up the reins of power, preferred to put off executing Norfolk. In consequence, the old man was left to mull over his shattered ambitions and broken patrimony and spent the following six years incarcerated in the Tower of London, during the reigns of Edward VI and his successor the nine days Queen, Lady Jane Grey. Perhaps Norfolk actually heard the hammering outside, as scaffolds were erected for the executions of Thomas Seymour in 1549 and of Somerset in 1552. Perhaps he regarded the fates of these two young men with rueful pity, but then again perhaps he cared not to!

In July 1553 with the accession of Mary I, a devout Catholic, Norfolk was released from the Tower restored to all his estates and the attainder against him reversed. Even at the great age of eighty, his duties began anew. He was also appointed Lord High Steward to preside over the trial of Lady Jane Grey's father in law, John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland and in the following year he was Lieutenant General of the Army during the Wyatt rebellion. He died shortly afterwards. It is a remarkable fact that Norfolk who was born during the reign of Edward IV and was once married to that King's daughter, lived long enough to preside over the coronation as Earl Marshal, of the eighth monarch to reign during his long and eventful life. It must have been highly gratifying to the Catholic Norfolk to preside over the anointing of a sovereign loyal to the old religion. Once again his House was in order, his coronet buffed anew, his fortunes restored. All was secure for him to pass on to his grandson and heir, Surrey's eldest boy, another Thomas who would carry on the family name and perhaps add to its lustrous in ways more audacious than even the 3rd Duke would have dared to contemplate!

 Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk for all his ruthlessness and chicanery, was undoubtedly a fine soldier and a shrewd courtier, but perhaps most impressively of all, he was a simply a survivor!   
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 06, 2009, 01:03:33 AM
So Larry has been in the same garden as Bernard Duke! Goodness there is a link to cherish!

He was a wonderfully taciturn man! Sadly, I never made it to Arundel before my move to the southern hemisphere, but I intend to pay a visit when next I return to dear old Blighty!   

I used to live near Framlingham, which is still very impressive! I often wonder why the Howards failed to win it back! But then again they had gained Arundel, and I guess too many castles in one pair of hands, may have been seen as a threat by Elizabeth I and her immediate successors! Taking into consideration the Howards track record that is, particularly in their apparent genetic traits of ambition and a taste for furtherance of their power that is!!!!! Thank goodness these particular traits have been tempered as the generations have unfurled down to the present! Now the principal ambition of the Norfolks appears to be the preservation of Arundel and the remainder of their once vast patrimony!







Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 06, 2009, 04:45:08 AM
All was secure for him to pass on to his grandson and heir, Surrey's eldest boy, another Thomas who would carry on the family name and perhaps add to its lustrous in ways more audacious than even the 3rd Duke would have dared to contemplate!


Ooops silly me...I am most embarrassed as I wrote lustrous instead of lustre!!!! Am red faced at my carelessness!!!! Sorry!

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Prince_Lieven on April 06, 2009, 04:20:44 PM
Some wonderful informaion there Toots, thanks so much! Interesting that both the 2nd and 3rd dukes lived to such a great age, perhaps it was in the blood! It is indeed fascinating to think that the 3rd duke presided over the coronation of Mary I, having once been married to her great-grand-aunt, Anne of York! I eagerly await some info about the later Howards, since I don't know much about them!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 06, 2009, 08:26:54 PM
Yes Liam, the longevity of the 2nd and 3rd Dukes is noteworthy! I do wonder that the 4th Duke may have enjoyed such a long life, had it not been literally 'cut' short!! The 9th Duke reached his ninety first year too!

With regards to the later Dukes of Norfolk.....I am so tempted to rush off and 'wrap up' so to speak, but I feel a sense of obligation to do this whole thing properly really. But now, I am beginning to wonder at the brevity of the task in hand, and whether more members of the forum will eventually join in, as I would loathe this to become primarily 'Toots' waffle' thread?!?! It is very kind of you and Larry to drop in like you do! I hope that no one on high decides to merge this into the Tudor thread, because soon I shall move into the Stuart era and eventually reach beyond and up to the present! Saying this, I am rather surprised that no other Tudor thread patrons have dropped in or wish to contribute here! Maybe they realize that I do not envisage remaining in this era for long!

On the subject of longevity. The Graftons are 'the' ducal dynasty noted for a marked consistency of generational longevity. Plenty of octogenarians amongst their ranks!

The 4th Duke of Norfolk (1538 this year is based on the works of John Martin Robinson and Neville Williams, although I note other sources state the year to have been 1536 - 1572)

Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk, Earl of Surrey, Baron Mowbray and Segrave was the eldest son of Henry, Earl of Surrey and his wife of Lady Frances de Vere. Born at Kenninghall Palace, which had come to the Howards as one of the various seats of the Mowbrays, the future 4th Duke was according to his august paternal grandfather, born a month early but he proved a lusty infant nonetheless. As heir assumptive to the Dukedom and vast Howard patrimony, the infant by courtesy from birth, Lord Mowbray and Segrave, spent his early childhood surrounded by the trappings of splendour, akin to those of the Royal Court. His grandfather, riding on a tide of good fortune and favour, was in receipt of an annual income of about 3,000 pounds a year from his vast landholdings, and there were various other emoluments, pensions and salaries pouring into the ducal coffers from numerous court offices, which also contributed to the maintenance of the ducal family and its various households.

Kenninghall, unlike Framlingham Castle the ancient Bigod seat, was primarily a home, rather than a fortress stronghold first, residence and home second. The Palace had been extended over the previous decades, in order to allow various branches of the Howard progeny to  maintain their own semi independent establishments within its numerous, comfortably appointed ranges. There were in addition various other family seats, at Norwich for example, where Thomas' grand father built a splendid new residence that became known, rather unimaginatively as the 'Duke's Palace,' and Mount Surrey and Surrey Court in the same city, built for his father the ill fated Earl of Surrey. Other family homes included castles at Acre, Rising and the aforementioned Framlingham, as well as the homes of the infant's step great grandmother, Agnes Duchess, Norfolk House opposite Lambeth Palace in London and Chesworth House near Horsham in West Sussex. In all, the future 4th Duke of Norfolk would one day possess more 'fifty six manors, thirty-seven avowsons and"many other estates" making him the richest subject in the realm with an income that is said to have reached at least 4,500 pounds per annum.

At the time of his first marriage in 1556, the bride, the heiress of the 19th  Earl of Arundel, had the expectation of inheriting personal estates worth a further 666 pounds pa., which would eventually pass to her Howard descendants. At this time, Norfolk's landholdings encompassed some six hundred square miles of land. This vast portfolio of holdings, equalled only in extent and privilege by the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster and the Palatinate of Durham, made up the unique 'Liberty of the Dukes of Norfolk' as established by Edward IV for the last of the Mowbray Dukes, and subsequently inherited by the Howard Dukes. With extraordinary rights and privileges that extended beyond the borders of Norfolk, the Liberty encompasses properties in Suffolk, Essex, Surrey and Sussex. In addition the Duke also possessed estates in the west, in Devon, Shropshire, Ireland and a coalfield in south Wales. (Hopefully, this will give readers here, an idea of the sheer magnitude of the Norfolk patrimony and the power that the incumbent Duke could wield.)  

It is the 4th Duke, who in childhood was entrusted to the care of one John Foxe, a cleric. This man was responsible for instilling into his young charge the Protestant faith. A matter that no doubt troubled his reactionary old grandfather, once he himself was released from the Tower and restored to his Dukedom. Thereafter, the old Duke tried to put right such matters as his heir's religious indoctrination, but the impressions instilled in the future 4th Duke during his childhood remained and he is today regarded as the first of his House to have been an Anglican. This is ironic when one sees his third marriage to the stalwart Catholic Lady Dacre of Gilsland and later still the designs to marry him to Mary, Queen of Scots.

Accusations of his recusancy which coloured his ultimate downfall, were purported to have been encouraged by his rivals, Leicester and Burghley, though Norfolk's biographer, Neville Williams, maintains that Norfolk's faith was primarily a personal matter that rarely encroached into his public life or matters of policy.

The 4th Duke of Norfolk made three marriages highly important and dynastically profitable marriages. His first bride, Lady Mary Fitzalan (1540 - 1557) daughter of the 19th Earl of Arundel died two months after giving birth to a son Phillip, Earl of Surrey, the heir to the Dukedom. The widowed 4th Duke married secondly in 1558 the exquisitely beautiful, Margaret, widowed Lady Dudley (1540 - 1564), daughter and heiress of Henry, 1st and last Baron Audley of Walden and maternal first cousin of Lady Jane Grey. Margaret Duchess died aged just twenty four leaving her devastated husband with two more sons, Thomas and William. In 1566/67 the Duke entered matrimony for the third time when he married Elizabeth (c. 1540 - 1567), widow of the 3rd Baron Dacre of Gilsland. It would be his plans to take a fourth wife that would lead to Norfolk's ultimate fall from grace, his permanent estrangement from his cousin the Queen and the beginning of his journey toward the scaffold and the block!

To be continued.....



    





Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 06, 2009, 10:58:22 PM
The 4th Duke of Norfolk part II:-

Norfolk inherited several of his father's principal aesthetic interests. As a patron of the arts, the 4th Duke collected together a fine library. He embellished Kennighall, with collections of tapestries and paintings and enlarged and beautified the ducal Palace at Norwich. At this time Norwich was the second city of the realm after London, and was flourishing as the wool capital of the country. The city was also the capital of England's most prosperous county! At the palace in Norwich, the Duke created a great quadrangle similar to that at Trinity College, Cambridge. A new great hall and some fifteen other principal chambers were laid out and lavishly decorated. There was a covered bowling alley and a tennis court. Apparently according to Robinson, Norfolk's 'estate in England was worth little less than the whole realm of Scotland, in the ill state to which the wars reduced it; and that when he was on his own tennis court at Norwich, he thought himself as great as a King.'

In 1564 the Duke acquired the Charterhouse in London for 2,000 pounds, renamed it Howard House, and set about transforming it into another suitable seat conveniently close to the Court and the seat of government. Unlike his father, who had never had the oppotunity to use the ducal resources to realize his own visions, the 4th Duke was able to bankroll his lavish lifestyle, and even found his income, enormous though it was, often stretched to the point where the he had to resort to borrowing funds in order to keep the whole show on the road, so to speak. Such financial troubles were hardly unusual for courtiers during the reign of Elizabeth I, but what is remarkable to note, even with the amount of money that the ducal holdings generated, just how much Norfolk must have had to have parted with, in order to find himself in need of the services of money lenders!

Based on RPI resources the 4th Duke's landed income (excluding emoluments, salaries etc of at least another 1,7000 pounds) stood at 2,815 pounds in 1559 which equates to an RPI of 641,141.55 pounds or, based on average earnings 10,164,021.03 pounds as of 2007!

As a comparison to some of his fellow peers I shall provide a little more data about just how wealthy Norfolk was where land generated income  was concerned and comparable!

The Duke of Norfolk:- 2,815 pounds - Although according to records of assessments of the taxable income of the peerage it was incorrectly calculated to be 1,200 pounds in 1559
The Earl of Derby - 2,000 pounds
The Earl of Oxford - 1,600 pounds
The Earl of Winchester - 1,200 pounds
The Earl of Rutland - 1,200 pounds
The Earl of Huntingdon - 1,000 pounds
The Earl of Hertford - 1,000 pounds (Son and senior male heir of the 1st Duke of Somerset)
The Earl of Shrewsbury - 1,000 pounds
The Earl of Pembroke - 1,000 pounds
The Earl of Worcester - 800 - 1,000 pounds approximately (Based of the the acquisition of Tintern and existing Somerset family holdings!)
The Earl of Arundel - 666 pounds (Norfolk's first father in law)
Lord Audley of Walden - 333 pounds (Norfolk's second father in law)
Lord Howard of Effingham - 333 pounds (Norfolk's half great uncle) 

Perhaps this will help others to visualize just what big fish Norfolk was! I am trying to establish the value in terms of landed estates of other peers of the time including Westmoreland, Northumberland, Cumberland, Lincoln (to be) and Dacre of Gilsland. I would also love to know about the incomes of the Worcesters for certain and the Montagus of Boughton during this period!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 07, 2009, 07:19:24 AM
Oooops....apologies....I stated earlier that when Somerset made himself Duke, he became premier and only Duke of the realm in 1547 after the 3rd Duke of Norfolk was attainted. This was incorrect as I had forgotten about Charles Brandon's two sons. Only after the death of the 3rd and last Duke of Suffolk within an hour of that of his elder brother in July 1551, did Somerset briefly become Premier and sole Duke of the realm until the joint elevations of John Dudley, Earl of Warwick to the Dukedom of Northumberland and Henry Grey, 3rd Marquess of Dorset, father of Lady Jane Grey, to the Dukedom of Suffolk three months later.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Vecchiolarry on April 07, 2009, 04:09:41 PM
Hi Alix,

Wow, you've certainly been typing your little fingers off!!!
I've just read through your last 4 posts and I do believe you should do a book on this subject.  On all the Dukes & Duchesses;  when you're finished here, of course!!
A nice big coffee table book with miriads of pictures....

A book such as this would be historically significant, I think...

And then, you'd be rich and I could come and visit you and you could feed me tea and scones - - just a thought!!!

Cheers,
Larry
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 07, 2009, 05:59:12 PM
Larry my dear, my door would always be open! My thing about Dukes is probably  motivated by their rarity! You are so kind in your compliments and I feel really humbled by your kind words! IMHO they are comparably to Royalty not only because they are almost unique, but because of the fascinating lives they enjoyed! It is a combination of unbelievable wealth, glamour, intrigue, ambitions and in some cases eccentricity, madness, financial ruin and outright criminality! I can not get enough of these personalities! I would probably be deemed a ducal junkie in some quarters!

As a wee break from the Norfolks, here is some data about ducal stats!


In 1660 when Charles II was invited back to England to take his throne, there were only four extant non royal Dukedoms of the realms. George Villiers, 2nd Duke of Buckingham held  one of the two English titles, whilst the other, that of Richmond was held by the King's distant kinsman, Esme Stewart, who was also 5th Duke of Lennox in the Scots peerage. The other extant Dukedom, also in the Scots peerage, was held by Anne Hamilton, 3rd Duchess of Hamilton. Between the restoration of 1660 and the death of Queen Anne in 1714 I have calculated that some forty strawberry leafed coronets were distributed from the fount of all honours! This figure includes the reversal of attainders against the Norfolk and Somerset Dukedoms which subsequently bore their original precedence and are subsequently the only two pre restoration non royal Dukedoms in the English peerage to remain extant. These statistics also includes the life peerages of the Dukedom of Portsmouth and the special Dukedom of Hamilton bestowed upon the husband of the 3rd Duchess of Hamilton for his lifetime. 

  Of all the hereditary Dukedoms created and restored during this particular period when the ducal ranks were so lavishly replenished, only eighteen remain extant into the twenty first century. It is also pertinent to note that three individuals actually carry two Dukedoms each today, thus reducing the number of actual persons holding Dukedoms created during the period 1660 - 1714 to just sixteen. Just to complicate matters, some of you sharp bods out there, who may read this, will probably think I have made a mistake in my sums, but it makes sense when one knows that one of the Dukedoms created between 1660 and 1714, that of Brandon (GB) created in 1711, is actually united with the Dukedom of Hamilton (S) created in 1643.

The reign of George I saw a remarkable flurry of ducal creations. Between July 1715 and  June 1720, the King created twelve Dukedoms. Two of which were for life only for his mistress, and one other was given the incumbent Duke of Argyll. The remaining nine creations were basically promotional in nature. Of the ten Hereditary Dukedoms created during this five year period, only one has perpetuated in the present century, which is a rather interesting example of the randomness of statistics, when compared to the survival rate of Dukedoms from the previous period represented above.




Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 07, 2009, 10:14:24 PM
  Here is another little piece of data that illustrates the landed incomes of all the extant Dukes of the five realms as of 1879. I have included the future Duke of of Fife because of his elevation a decade later! It may be of interest to some to note the incomes the sovereign and heir to the throne received from their Duchies. All second figures are pounds sterling in 'gross' income received per annum as of 1879! I have not included the Royal Dukes of Cambridge, Edinburgh or Connaught as their primary income did not come from landed interests but instead came in the form of 24,000 pounds per annum for George Duke and Cambridge and 25,000 pounds pa. each for Alfred E. and Arthur C. all of which were granted to them by Parliament as annuities!

1879

Abercorn - 79,662 acres  - 53,400 pounds pa.
Argyll -     175,114 acres  - 50,842 pounds pa.
Atholl -     201,640 acres  - 42,030 pounds pa.
Beaufort -  51,085 acres  - 56,226 pounds pa.
Bedford -  86,335 acres = 141,793 pounds pa. (Excludes income from the Bloomsbury and Covent Garden estates in London)
Buccleuch and Queensberry - 460,108 acres - 217,163 pounds pa. (Excludes income generated from minerals etc of 4,091 pounds and further income from Granton Harbour valued at 10,601 pounds per annum.)
Buckingham and Chandos - 10,482 acres -  18,080 pounds pa.
Cleveland - 104,194  acres - 97,398 pounds pa.
Cornwall - 96,781 Pounds pa. (The Prince of Wales as Duke received a further 40,000 pounds pa. in the form of a parliamentary annuity)
Devonshire - 198,572 acres - 181,000 pounds pa.
Fife - 249,220 acres -  72,653 pounds pa. (An Earl at the time, but still relevant in light of his future elevation!)
Grafton - 25,773 acres -  39,284 pounds pa.
Hamilton and Brandon - 157,386 acres -  73,636 pounds pa. (Excludes mineral rent of 67,000 pounds per annum.)
Leeds - 24,237 acres -  33,381 pounds pa.
Lancaster - 76,186 pounds pa. (Queen Victoria as Duke of Lancaster received a further 385,000 pounds pa. from the treasury for the maintenance of her household etc. Out of this, the Queen had 60,000 pounds deposited into her privy purse for her personal use.)
Leinster - 73,100 acres - 55,877 pounds pa.
Manchester - 27,312 acres - 40,360 pounds pa.
Marlborough - 23,511 acres - 36,557 pounds pa.
Montrose -  103,447 acres -  24,872 pounds pa.
Newcastle - 35,547 acres -  74,547 pounds pa.
Norfolk - 49,866 acres - 75,596 pounds pa. (Excludes mineral income and urban income. In several sources the 15th Duke of Norfolk was purportedly in receipt of a total income of about 200,000 pounds per annum.)
Northumberland - 192,080 acres - 185,806 pounds pa. (Believed to exclude some portion of mineral income that is presently unverified.)
Portland - 183,199 acres -  88,350 pounds pa. (Excludes 19,571 pounds from mines)
Richmond, Gordon and Lennox - 286,411 acres -  79,683 pounds pa.
Roxburghe - 60,418 acres -  50,917 pounds pa.
Rutland - 70,137 acres  - 97,486 pounds pa.
St Albans - 8,998 acres -  10,955 pounds pa. (Excludes mineral royalties of approximately of 8,750 pounds per annum)
Somerset - 25,387 acres  37,577 pounds pa.
Sutherland - 1,358,545 acres -  141,667 pounds pa.
Wellington - 19,116 acres -  22,162 pounds pa. (Excludes entailed estates in Belgium and Spain)
Westminster - 19, 749 acres - 38,994 pounds pa. (Excludes income from all land holdings within the city of London.)

A pound from 1879 is comparable to the RPI of 72.82 pounds as of 2007 or comparable to the average earnings value of 518.27 pounds as of 2007!

If one wants to take in to consideration the 1st Duke of Westminster's entire income from all his properties including his London holdings, his annual income in 1879 amounted to about 290,000 pounds. His Grace of Bedford's income in 1879 including his London rents stood at about 225,000 pounds , putting him into third place behind Westminster and Buccleuch in terms of ducal earnings!
 
At the bottom end of this league of ducal earners is the 9th Duke of St Albans, whose acreage is more comparable to a member of the gentry rather than the very highest echelons of the Victorian aristocracy. Nevertheless with the discovery of a highly lucrative seam of coal beneath the picturesque fields of his modest Nottinghamshire estate, the 9th Duke of St Albans' income was greatly enhanced in the form of extra income generated from mineral rights. This twist of geological good fortune thus nudged St Albans' earnings above those of his nearest peer, the 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos, who inherited a patrimony of the verge of complete bankruptcy in 1861. This admirable Duke, the only one  of his line worthy of such a sobriquet, spent his tenure actually 'working' tirelessly to clear the debts burdening the remnants of the once vast Nugent- Brydges - Grenville patrimony and  maintain enough of his landed interests with which to justify the dignity of his exulted status.

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 07, 2009, 11:59:31 PM
As to the costs  of living and the maintenance of dukes and their families. One can generally forget what Lloyd George said about Dreadnoughts and Dukes as I give a brief outline of howthe average Duke generally spent his lucre during the later half of Queen Victoria's reign based on various sources.

During this period a large home in country comparable to many of those that shelter and a place in the country for Dukes of the realm, such as Chatsworth, Arundel, Blenheim and the like,  would have cost an average of 12,000 to 14,000 pounds per annum to maintain, staff, heat and whatnot without scrimping! A pad in town kept in a permanent state of readiness should their Graces decide to pop into town at any time, could easily cost a similar amount to keep open year round! That would account for some 26,000 to 28,000 pounds a year. Inevitably when I share these figures, I hope others will realise that such costs included all household bills and upkeep akin to that of running of a home today...all one has to do is imagine everything on a huge scale. Servants accounted on average for upwards of thirty persons resident in a large house, but as in the case of the Dukes fine example of many other ducal 'pads' that were once dotted about throughout Belgravia, Mayfair, Westminster and Bloomsbury. Some such as Montagu House, Stafford House (once memorable described by a Queen Victoria, which though a quip demonstrates just how impressive some of those ducal lairs were, as the sovereign said to her hostess the Duchess of Sutherland 'I have come from my house (Buckingham Palace) to your Palace'!!!!   and Northumberland House were very impressive indeed and even put Marlborough House in the shade! If you need a U.S comparison just think of an hybrid of Marble House and 660 Fifth Avenue, Manhattan and you will get an idea of what a ducal home in London such as Norfolk House or Devonshire House would have been like.

Needless to say, there were quite a few Dukes of 1879 who simply did not have the cash resources to maintain two lavish abodes, and consequently maintained their country places in a fitting style and kept up a degree of dignity as funds allowed in their more modest London establishments. The Dukes of Leeds and St Albans had homes in Grosvenor Crescent and the Manchesters lived in Great Stanhope Street for a time, all in fine houses with suitable addresses for such august residents but nonetheless hardly comparable to those London homes of some of their more wealthy equals. The 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos, after decades of retrenchment in a bid to save his shattered inheritance from complete ignobility, eventually managed to reoccupy Chandos House, the splendid mansion erected by his ancestor the 1st Duke of Chandos, but Buckingham was unusual, and it is rather sad that after all his valiant and ultimately successful efforts to save his legendary seat at Stowe in his titular county and Chandos House on Pall Mall in London, he could not pass them on to a son and successor, as he was to be the last of his line. 

Some kept yachts too. Dukes of Sutherland, Bedford, Leeds, St Albans and Westminster were amongst the keenest sailors of their day.


Oh dear I have wandered off on a tangent...I really ought to get back to the Norfolks...sorry!



 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 08, 2009, 03:18:46 PM
Servants accounted on average for upwards of thirty persons resident in a large house, but as in the case of the Dukes of Northumberland, some houses required more than fifty servants and all these people under one roof as well as the ducal family required feeding three times a day! There were fine examples of many other ducal 'pads' were once dotted about throughout Belgravia, Mayfair, Westminster and Bloomsbury. Some such as Montagu House, Stafford House (once memorable described by a Queen Victoria, which though a quip demonstrates just how impressive some of those ducal lairs were, as the sovereign said to her hostess the Duchess of Sutherland) 'I have come from my house (Buckingham Palace) to your Palace', and Northumberland House which was sold by compulsory order in 1875 for 500,000 pounds to the Board of Works, were very impressive indeed and even put Marlborough House in the shade! If you need a U.S comparison just think of an hybrid of Marble House and 660 Fifth Avenue, Manhattan and you will get an idea of what a ducal home in London such as Norfolk House or Devonshire House would have been like.


I noticed that I had made a terrible hash of the above paragraph in my last post and had to tidy it up! I hope it makes sense now!


Right I shall now return to the Dukes of Norfolk!

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 08, 2009, 05:59:21 PM
Thomas Howard, 4th Duke of Norfolk (1538 - 1572) Part III

Through his third marriage to the widowed Lady Dacre of Gilsland, Norfolk became step father and ultimately guardian of the orphaned Dacre children. After the accidental death of little George, 4th Baron Dacre of Gilsland when a vaulting horse crushed him, the considerable Dacre patrimony passed to his sisters as his co heirs.

With shrewd regard to the future of his descendants, Norfolk took full advantage of the death of his stepson and arranged marriages between his three sons from his first and second marriages, to his third wife's children. Anne Dacre married Philip, Earl of Surrey, her sister Mary married Lord Thomas Howard, elder of the boys born to Norfolk and his second wife, and Lord William Howard, Thomas's full blood brother married Elizabeth, youngest of the Dacre girls. Even though Mary died childless, her portion of the Dacre inheritance passed neatly to her surviving sisters, thus ensuring the whole of the Dacre inheritance remained in the hands of the Howards and became the basis upon which a northern interest was established for the family.

In time, the descendants of Philip, Earl of Surrey and Anne Dacre would make Greystoke Castle in Cumberland a collateral branch seat, later still it was one of several ducal seats and then once again a collateral branch stronghold. Lord Thomas Howard, widower of the second Dacre daughter may have lost out in securing some portion of the Dacre inheritance which all together amounted to some 130,000 acres, but this was hardly detrimental to his prospects, as he had inherited the fine Audley estates from his mother, and through his second marriage secured another estate, Charlton in Wiltshire for his family. Lord Thomas became Baron Howard de Walden by writ of summons in 1597 and in 1603 Earl of Suffolk by letters patent. Whilst his eldest son and successor inherited these titles and the Audley estates, thus creating a collateral titled branch of the ducal family, Lord Suffolk's younger son, yet another Thomas Howard would eventually inherit the Wiltshire estates of his mother and founded another titled collateral branch of the family when he was created Earl of Berkshire.

The 4th Duke of Norfolk's youngest survivng son Lord William and his wife, Elizabeth Dacre, thus received the lion's share of the Dacre estates by mutual family negotiation and agreement. This would create a third branch descended from the 4th Duke on the Howard tree that would be well provided for with considerable lands across the north, thus greatly increasing the Howards' collective dynastic power and influence right across the English realm. Lord William's descendants include the Earls of Carlisle who built Castle Howard in Yorkshire, the 'Brideshead' of the Television and Cinematic versions of Evelyn Waugh's novel. Castle Howard became alienated from the Earldom in the last century, and now belongs to the grandsons of a younger son of the 9th Earl. The present 13th Earl of Carlisle's younger brother now owns and lives at Naworth Castle in Cumberland, and another branch of the Howard Family owned Corby Castle which is also in Cumbria until 1994!


Goodness, I hope this makes sense! I just wanted to illustrate just how significant the 4th Duke's marriages were. I have not even dwelt on the inheritance the descendants of his first marriage, would one day enjoy as senior heirs of the 19th Earl of Arundel! I shall endeavour to explain the near 'mythical' mantle that burnished the Arundel Earldom and Fitzalan name in my installment about Philip, Earl of Surrey, as it is intrinsic to the history of following Dukes of Norfolk!

Anyway, back to the 4th Duke and his last years! In 1568 after nearly two years absence from court, the Duke returned to the public arena and with the flight into England by Mary Queen of Scots was one of the men appointed Commissioners to investigate the charge that Mary had been complicit in the murder of her second husband Henry, Lord Darnley. It was an appropriate task for the Duke who as Guardian of the Dacre children would have ample opportunity to visit the numerous Dacre estates during his time in York. Apparently , it was during this period that the Scottish Secretary of State, Maitland suggested that a marriage between the widowed Norfolk and Mary would be fortuitous in bringing about a Anglo - Scottish alliance and enhance Mary's prospects of restoration to her throne. Even after Elizabeth I called a meeting of the Privy council before the commissioners had settled the matter of Mary's guilt, Norfolk tarried in the North where he purported wanted to 'inspect the defenses.'

Upon his return south, Norfolk failed to realize just how close to the wind he was sailing. He had lost the support of Burghley, the Queen's most trusted adviser, having been one of the principal causes of the statesman's fraught difficulties over Anglo - Spanish relations. Burghley regarded Norfolk as one of his most significant rivals and wasted little time in evaluating the rumours about some of the conversations that had taken place in York. Ironically, Elizabeth who heard of the proposed match from the Scots Regent Moray, seems to have initially at least, not taken against the idea, and even asked Norfolk several times to his face what his intentions toward Mary were. Norfolk for his part appears to have vacillated and bluffed, on the advice of Leicester, who promised to broach the subject for Norfolk with the Queen. But these scenes, and the Queen's apparent neutral interest galvanized Norfolk into regarding such a marriage as more than just a far fetched pipe dream but increasingly as a very real possibility. What Norfolk failed to grasp was that in his continued flummery over this project, he provoked irritation and eventually suspicion in his Queen and cousin. Even Moray, the Regent of Scotland, who had initially been in favour of the match soon cooled in his support.

With the rising of the Catholic nobles in the north at the same time as Norfolk was pussy footing around the rumours of his desired marriage to Mary, Burghley saw his chance to misrepresent Norfolk's intentions and place the Duke at the very centre of the plot to replace Elizabeth with Mary and restore England to the old religion. The Northern Earls rebelled and were soundly suppressed and Norfolk was thrown into the Tower, where he spent ten months. Perhaps Leicester's confession to the Queen, that he had promise his support to Norfolk in his intentions toward Mary caused the Queen to distance herself from the entire affair. Nevertheless, Burghley failed to gather enough evidence to have Norfolk tried for complicity in the rebellion and he was finally released. Thereafter Norfolk lived very quietly but under a permanent cloud of suspicion whilst Burghley and Walsingham worked tirelessly to keep him under surveillance and gather more evidence against him for future purposes.   

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Prince_Lieven on April 08, 2009, 06:07:18 PM
Fascinating information Toots, you really could write a book! Not only do you have all the knowlege, but you also express it very fluidly and approachably (if that's a word!).

I also found the posts about ducal 'stats' extremely interesting! At the risk of completely upsetting the apple cart, perhaps when you've finished about the 4t duke of Norfolk, maybe it would be an idea to jump to something else, perhaps discussing a duke of a completely differnt era?? Since you're the expert here Toots, anyone with any questions about the Norfolks, or anyone who wishes to initiate a new discussion on them - or any other dukedom - can do so, without us being confined to doing things chronologically. Does this sound ok or am I insane??
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Vecchiolarry on April 08, 2009, 06:20:20 PM
Hi Alix,

My what treacherous times to be living.  I can't imagine Norfolk even considering marrying Mary - both Catholics and Elizabeth suspicious of everyone's motives both political and religious.

But, I must say I admire the man for gaining a fortune by marrying his sons to 3 heiresses from the same family - the monies all stay "Allin the Family"!!!  Smart boy...

I'm loving this thread!!!  Thanks...

Larry
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 08, 2009, 06:40:45 PM
I would be delighted to leave the Norfolks for a while at least! I did wonder about possibly plucking a Duke or Duchess from the late Victorian/ Edwardian era as they were at the epicentre of the halcyon era in which many personalities discussed in other threads lived!

There are all sorts of personalities to choose from including 'Sunny' Marlborough who was anything but, his wives Consuelo and Gladys were equally fascinating! The 8th Duke of Devonshire, who turned down the premiership three times and saved himself for the love of his life, Louise, Duchess of Manchester both deserve space here. Then there is Louise's absolutely awful son, George, 8th Duke of Manchester and his even more appalling son and successor. Others include the extraordinary 5th Duke of Portland who built a labyrinth of palatially decorated picture galleries, a ball room and numerous reception rooms underground at Welbeck and used to hide himself from everyone including almost all of his servants!

The 9th Duke of St Albans' eldest son and successor was locked up in an asylum as was his youngest son who apparently deliberately set fire to a building at Eton during his brief time there! Then there is Bend'or Westminster, who I tend to think was an out and out misogynist, but goodness me was he a charmer too and what a life he enjoyed!

The Beauforts, who became so closely linked to the Royal Family for a while seem rather staid when compared to some of their ducal contemporaries!

There are heaps of characters to choose from!

I completely take on board what you have suggested Liam and hope someone might act on your kind suggestion and we can take it from there!

Larry I am so very pleased you like my little vignettes!!! Norfolk was a brilliant matchmaker....but then again he did have the Dacre inheritance on a plate really!

Bess of Hardwick did a similar thing with her fourth husband, the Earl of Shrewsbury's children, binding them to her children from her Cavendish marriage and thus providing for the future basis upon which collaterals of the Devonshire Dukedom flourished, namely the Cavendish Dukedom of Newcastle and later still the Cavendish - Bentinck Dukes of Portland.

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 08, 2009, 10:05:02 PM
As suggested by Liam I shall fast forward to another era, which may interest some more of our members!

We will look at the world of Britain at the apogee of her Imperial might. Here in this 'green and pleasant,' land. 'This fortress built by nature for herself,' where hedgerows stood regular and neat, where vast monolithic factories and 'satanic mills' spewed forth endless clouds of smoke across the skyline of sprawling northern cities. 'This other Eden,' where collieries and mines issued forth from their very depths, the mineral fruits of the earth that so fortuitously ran in thick seams beneath 'This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.'

OK, OK....I know that the above is frightfully prosaic and unfortunately does not incorporate Ireland, Wales and Scotland....but I hope it may conjure up a suitable vision of the country which the aristocracy liked to envisage and extol as their native land at the end of the nineteenth century and up to the outbreak of the Great War. Hopefully some of you may even hear the rousing harmony of Elgar's Cello Concerto in your mind's ear too as you wallow in the propaganda- like prose I have pilfered in order to make my point!!!!

Also think fleets of powdered and livered footmen, jovial weather buffed grooms, venerable butlers and maids who seemed to melt into the walls as one passed. Picture decorous tennis parties and the gentle but taunting thwack of a croquet mallet sending an opponent's ball into the shrubbery during long, hazy summer afternoons, and of Village vs the Big House cricket matches, of the boys home from Eton or Harrow for the hols and their sisters walking around the school room with books on their heads, under the beady eye of a governess!

Imagine house parties, with tea trays in bed followed by breakfast in a room hung with dozens of Canalettos, a Chippendale sideboard groaning with all manner of fare from kedgeree to deviled kidneys, freshly laid eggs from the Home farm prepared in various manners by Cook, lean bacon and cured glazed hams all kept warm over spirit lamps and beneath gleaming silver lids. There may have been a personal gold tea pot for each guest at their table setting too, along with the freshly laundered snowy white napery, gilded Royal Worcester porcelain and crested cutlery as well as crisp newspapers, perhaps still warm from an assignation with an iron in the pressing room!

   The men will depart soon afterwards and proceed to slaughter countless hundred head of hand reared fowl by the end of cold autumnal and winter afternoons, and foxes would be lucky to escape the jaws of a pack of hounds more than once as the hunt on horseback, a plethora of pink coated gentleman and ladies in tailored habits indulged in a bit of archaic bloodlust. If a shoot was on, the ladies would drive out to meet the men for luncheon, served in a marquee or at one of the lodges scattered about great estates, and built for just such a purpose. Similarly a meet would do likewise if a quarry was brought down or had managed to ground at a suitably convenient time. After further sport in the afternoon the party would return to the big house in the fading light to be fortified by hot toddies and  hot baths drawn by their maids and valets, perhaps followed by a sumptuous tea in front of a roaring fire in the drawing room. Then a few hours of rest before the dressing bell announced that it was time to change for dinner. That meal over, the gentleman would remain at table for the port and humidor to be passed around whilst the ladies, in strict precedence of rank would withdraw to gossip in the drawing room. The men would arrive in time and someone would probably tinkle the ivories, as groups of four would converge at games tables for a few rubbers of bridge, perhaps accompanied by a choice of confections such as glace fruits, wafers and sherbets served with tea and coffee before bed by one, if one was lucky!
 

I would like to introduce Lord Hebrand Russell and his wife Mary, who from the time of their marriage in 1888 until 1893 was known as Lady Hebrand Russell and thereafter as the Duchess of Bedford. They and their peers lived in some semblance of the type of life I have tried to convey in the above blurb. For Mary Tribe, daughter of the Archdeacon of Barrackpore, going from the restraints of a thoroughly middle class ex pat background in India to marriage into one of the wealthiest of England's ducal families may have seemed daunting, but she was to never allow her elevation to obscure her individuality and in time she would use her position and husband's wealth to her advantage.

According to various sources their marriage was without affection, but the couple endured as was expected in those days and they produced one child, a son. In 1891 Lord Hebrand's father the 9th Duke shot himself in circumstances that have never fully been explained. At the time, it was reported that the Duke shot himself accidentally but over time this theory has been joined by another rather darker and tragic hypothesis. With the death of the 9th Duke, Lord Hebrand's elder brother Hastings, succeeded to the Dukedom and the entailed estates.   


   
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 08, 2009, 11:56:36 PM
The 11th Duke of Bedford (1858 - 1940) and Mary Duchess (1865 - 1937)

In 1893 Lord Hebrand Russell's brother Sackville, 10th Duke of Bedford, who was at the time probably the second richest Duke in Britain* rather dramatically collapsed and died aged nearly forty one as he was leaving the dining room at his house in Chesham Street in London's Belgravia. Happily married for ten years to Lady Adeline Somers it had become apparent that the 10th Duke and his wife would remain childless, so though his sudden and relatively early death stunned his family, his brother's position as heir presumptive and successor did not illicit such surprise. Having trained as a younger son without much expectation of ever inheriting the Dukedom, Lord Hebrand had seen service in Egypt and was on active duty to the Vice-regal court in India when he met his future wife for the first time.

At the time of his marriage, Lord Hebrand received the fruits of provisions that had been laid down by his father in the previous decade. It was not a vast amount, but it helped to provide the army officer and his new wife with the means to set up their own comfortable establishment. In fact Lord Hebrand was more or less blackmailed into returning to England by his father, who wrote to him shortly before his marriage, 'If you care to see me - it would not be very safe to wait till "my next birthday" when I may or may not be here.' This note seems rather ominous in light of what happened soon afterwards when the Duke was 'cleaning' one of his guns! The couple settled into their first marital home, Cairnsmore in Scotland where their only child was born. Neither Hebrand or Mary were particularly sociable animals, he due in part to his shyness and she due to her deafness, which was caused by a severe bout of typhoid and would eventually become profound.

With the death of the 10th Duke Hebrand and Mary found themselves obliged by duty to move to Woburn, the vast mansion built around the remnants of a former ciscerstian monastery founded in 1145. Henbrand Duke proved to be a remarkably complex man. His passion for zoology is well known and he imported and established a herd of Pere David's deer from China between 1894 and 1901, from which all known living deer of this species are now descended within and without China! He also had a wapiti, bison and Przewalsky's wild horses. In a unique project, deer of various breed were allowed to roam free within the Capability Brown designed park at Woburn along with 'emus, cranes, rare geese and wild turkeys.' This was before the advent of safari parks such are now popular in England and include amongst their number, Woburn and Longleat, home of the wonderfully individual Alexander Thynne otherwise known as Lord Bath!

Although Hebrand Duke and Mary Duchess' marriage has been described as 'without affection.' they were devoted to one another. After the first few seasons as the new residents of Woburn, where house parties were held and society vied for an invite stay.  Friday to Sunday with the Bedfords where everyone really did have their own gold teapot assigned to them and where upwards of seventy servants ensured ones every whim was fulfilled and that the house gleamed from the rafters to the dutch tiles in the sculleries, the Duchess' increasing deafness eventually brought this brief interlude to an end and Woburn became someehat sepuchral in atmosphere. Within this vast house, the Bedfords and their son, when he was still at school and home for the holidays lived in astonishingly regulated and stiflingly grandiloquent style. Hebrand Duke took not only his duties as a landlord and custodian of the Bedford patrimony seriously, but also his poistion as  duke of the realm. Even at home behind the umber walls of his home, Herbrand expected to be maintained by a vast retinue of servants. Footmen still changed into livery for dinner, even when the diners were just Hebrand and Mary. Everything within the vast mansion revolved around this couple who became increasingly reticent as they grew older.

Considering that Hebrand was not born as heir or expected to succeed to the Dukedom in his fromative years, it is quite striking that he took on the mantle of such a patrician Duke so throughly. He seems to have been spare and aloof in manner yet demanded the full ducal treatment in his surroundings. He is a fascinating man of contradictions. He criticized the  mechanics of the House of Lords, treated his tenants with noted generosity and care. He may have lived in a style more suited to a Duke of the mid eighteenth century, but he was also a realist when it came to the administration of his estates. He parted with a huge swathe of family property on the eve of the Great war, in order to consolidate and better preserve the remaining hubs of the family properties in Devonshire, Bedforshire and in London.

Hebrand Duke was a quintessential English gentleman, notoriously ill at ease in areas of emotion and demonstrative affection. This was probably accentuated by his military training and shyness. He adored his son Hebrand, who bore the courtesy title of Marquess of Tavistock as heir to the Dukedom, but the younger man's open pacifism during the Great War created a breach between father and son which never healed. All Bedford's sensibilities, his deep regard for duty, his experience as a soldier and above all the value he put upon his family name and the onerous responsibility he felt this carried were being undermined and seemingly abandoned by his heir. Bedford refused to have anything to do with Tavistock for two decades, all links were basically severed and Hebrand Duke seemed to draw himself even more into his own carefully guarded and regulated life at Woburn. He even started trying to protect the ducal estates from his son and later from his grandson with legalities that would take years to unravel.

* Based on the agricultural depression of the time I calculate that Bedford's income would have exceeded Buccleuchs by this time because of the nature of Bedford's urban properties in London. Buccluech's properties were almost entirely agricultural in nature.

To be continued.....
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 08, 2009, 11:58:19 PM
The 11th Duke of Bedford (1858 - 1940) and Mary Duchess (1865 - 1937) continued:-

Mary Duchess was an altogether remarkable woman. Perhaps for want of something to do, as her hearing was limited and society thus a difficulty, Mary surrounded herself with dogs and cats and embarked on a passion for ornithology. Being the Duchess of Bedford meant she could indulge her passion in great style and Hebrand Duke bought her beautiful white hulled ocean going steam yacht on which Mary and a retinue of staff would set off annually for trips to the Arctic, Scandinavia and the Outer Hebrides. Another interest was in nursing. Mary set up her own cottage hospital at Woburn in 1898 and she acted as assistant to a surgeon and learned to be a radiologist and ran the X Ray department on her own! She devoted thirty four years to nursing and was known to her patients as 'Sister Mary.' She was also active in the "Suffragette" movement. Mary was always up at 05:45 in order to prepare her hospital for the day and even scrubbing floors herself. Breakfast at Woburn with all the ducal paraphenalia  was served at 07:00 even when guests were staying!

But it was a hobby she first took up at sixty one, for which Mary Duchess is best remembered. She took a flight from London Croydon aerodrome to Woburn and never looked back. Thereafter she trained to become a pilot, employing qualified pilots who were not only her servants but also became her friends. Mary took part in record breaking long distance flights to India 1929 and to South Africa in 1930. In 1933 she earned her 'A' Pilot's license. She always claimed that when flying her tinnitus became more bearable. In March 1937 just under an hour short of reaching her two hundredth hour of solo flying, Mary took off from Woburn and never came back. Nothing was ever found of the plane, she simply flew off into the distance and vanished.
    
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 09, 2009, 12:34:41 AM
Ooops sorry I have just noted I said 'Capability' Brown designed the park at Woburn....sorry I wasn't concentrating as Humphrey Repton was responsible for the landscaping at Woburn! Also in one post I referred to the 10th Duke as Hastings, sorry his name was actually Sackville as written elsewhere! I aslo named the 11th Duke and Duchess' son as Herbrand when he was called Hastings I hope I haven't confused anyone?!?! Also all 'Hebrand' should read Herbrand!

Perhaps it would easier be to just do a list:-

Hastings, 9th Duke of Bedford
Sackville, 10th Duke
Herbrand, 11th Duke
Hastings, 12th Duke

I should really write up posts in 'word' first and then paste after proof reading rather than reel them off here online!

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Vecchiolarry on April 09, 2009, 08:59:37 AM
Hi Alix,

OMG, poor Mary!!  Another Amelia Earhardt - mystery and all...
I'm glad she found something(s) to do.  Can't imagine sitting around all day with nothing to do (all those servants) would appeal to anyone.  She sounds like a fulfilled person.
I smilingly wonder if she'd lived, would she have been a bomber pilot in WWII???!!!

Larry
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 09, 2009, 04:17:44 PM
The 11th Duke of Bedford and Duchess Mary continued:-

Knowing Mary, I should imagine, even if the RAF had declined her because of her age by 1939, she would have probably bought herself a bomber and a few others in order to establish the 'Beford Bombers.'!!

Mary really was the most amazing woman and certainly one of the most interesting Duchesses of her day! Herbrand had not really approved of her nursing and 'cutting people open', and he really disaproved of her flying, and when all opposition failed to dissuade Mary from continuing her hobby, he resorted to cutting out articles about air disasters and leaving them on her desk! It made no difference. Only her bird watching seems to have had her husband's tacit approval from the start. Although Herbrand missed her when she went off on an expedition, he eventually gave her a beautiful replacement for the first yacht she had use of, in the form of an elegant clipper bowed single stack vessel. Their marriage was strengthened by respect and loyalty. In the case of Mary, it cost her contact for two decades with her only child, and she met her grandson for the first time when he was sixteen.

It is probably best to think of the Bedfords as they regarded themselves, which according to one commentator was as 'being rather grander than God.'

The future 12th Duke of Bedford's pacifism during the Great War was manifested due to his belief that Christians should not fight one another! This man whose mother seemed ever more preoccupied with her pet projects during his childhood, and whose father, though affectionate in his own way had done little to broaden his heir's horizons, had reached maturity during the unrest that saw the Lords being forced to accept the demands of the elected Commons. Death duties against estates were becoming a norm and were increasing at an alarming rate with each budget. in fact the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the time seemed determined to attack the Dukes of the realm in particular. Duke Hebrand was unusual amongst his creed, when he spoke presciently of adding members to the Lords, not through hereditary right but through nomination and merit. Yet his son's marriage to one Louisa Crommelin Whitwell was hardly auspicious to either her new in-laws or herself. She apparently confessed years later to her son Ian, that she had prayed at one time that her future husband would propose to her sister, rather than herself! But a pushy, snobbish mother, no doubt fueled to rhapsodies by the social glories of having a daughter as future Duchess of Bedford is believed to have made sure Louisa accepted Tavistock's proposal!

 Poor Louisa Tavistock never even visited Woburn Abbey, instead she went to Endsleigh, the Bedford house above the River Tamar in Devonshire to meet her in laws. According to Ian, 13th Duke, his father's realtionship with his father would be repeated between himself and his father. It was the start of a tradition that would cross three generations in time.

Duke Herbrand was initially estranged from his son, Tavistock, after the latter became a conscientious objector and the breach became so wide, that Tavistock's elder son did not realize he was  heir assumptive to the Dukedom of Bedford until he was sixteen! Up until 1933, the Tavistocks never mentioned the 'family' and the future 13th Duke was kept at home and educated privately, which probably went some way to protect him from ragging at a public school like Eton or Harrow, where his expectations would no doubt have been mentioned! It is believed that Ian was educated privately as his father had loathed Eton, although perhaps Tavistock may also have realized, for all his zealous religious faith, that his son would no doubt have endure numerous trials at such a school because of his father's active pacifism. It was probably one of the few occasions, the future Duke Hastings ever did anything that may be construed as remotely paternal and protective for his son. It is also pertinent to know that when Tavistock married he came into a settlement from which he drew an income of about 15,000 pounds a year, a type of trust that even his father had not been able to tamper with. This gave Tavistock complete independence from his father and he never had to seek support or assistance, which probably suited both in their hostile regard for one another.

By today's standards the relationship between the 11th Duke and his heir would be regarded as glaringly dysfunctional and in turn the 12th Duke would repeat this with his own son and heir. In 1933 Tavistock received a letter from his son asking him if it was true that the 11th Duke of Bedford was his grand father. When this revelation was confirmed, Ian naturally wanted to meet Herbrand and Mary and arrangements for a luncheon at Woburn were arranged. Thereafter Ian saw his grandparents about three times a year, and in part he was responsible for bringing about a thaw in relations. The very public break up of Tavistock's marriage to Louisa Whitwell also went some way to bring about this rapprochement between Duke Herbrand and his heir, although relations remained highly strained.   

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 09, 2009, 06:09:06 PM
The 8th Duke of Manchester 1853 - 1892

Here is a bit of 'juicy' blurb that may appeal to some who enjoy history full of scandalous and larger than life characters. The 8th, 9th and 12th Dukes of Manchester were the tabloid press' dream 'disgraces' of their day!

Perhaps the most notorious man to wear a ducal coronet during the latter half of Queen Victoria's reign was George Victor Montagu, 8th Duke of Manchester, otherwise known by a diminutive of the title Lord Kimbolton, namely 'Kim', which he bore by courtesy during the lifetime of his grandfather.

This man, who is hardly worthy of the name of 'gentleman' is best remembered for his flagrant affair with a music hall star, being constantly persued by a horde of creditors and eventually bringing complete disgrace upon himself and his house by being declared bankrupt, and probably most all for marrying the 'luscious' and fascinating Consuelo Yznaga.

I can not help but find Kim intriguing! By ducal standards, the Manchesters were not in the top league of landed earners like the Westminsters, Buccleuchs or Bedfords nor were their resources anywhere near comparable to those of their Graces of Devonshires, Northumberlands, Portlands, Clevelands or Hamiltons for example. Instead their patrominy, neatly divided between two estates, Kimbolton in Huntingdonshire and Tandragee in County Armagh provided the ducal coffers with an annual income of about 40,000 pounds a year during the heady agricultural boom that ended in 1880. Thus the Manchesters were on a par with Dukes such as those of Grafton, Somerset, Marlborough, Leeds and Atholl, whhich barring the Leeds Dukedom endure to this day and still retain some portion of the acres they owned in 1880 around the mansions they still regard now as then, as their homes. But not the Manchesters, they no longer own either of their estates. One is now a school and the other serves as the headquarters of a potato crisp manufacturing company. Kim Manchester did much to bring about the catastrophic dispersal of his patrimony. He may not have sold any acres or auctioned off the superb collection of old masters that once graced the interiors of the elegantly appointed castle rebuilt for his predecessor, the 1st Duke, by Sir John Vanburgh, but it is his actions which can be seen as a principal contributing factor in the ensuing decline in the Manchester fortunes that left Kim's grandson the 10th Duke, all but landless in his native land!

Kim's great great grandson, the present Duke lives in the USA and is presently married to a native of Laguna Beach, California. How Alexander Manchester came to be in the US, whilst his younger brother Lord Kimble resides in Australia is bound up in the life stories not only the 8th Duke of Manchester, but those of his successors. This terminal decline continued with his only son the 9th Duke who was the first and only Duke of the realm to date,  who has endured a stay at her Majesty's pleasure at HMP Wormwood Scrubs. This tale of declasse disgrace continued toward the present via a vast cattle ranch in Kenya with a house filled with a portion of the family art collection and antiques shipped out from Kimbolton Castle and thus saved from sale by the 10th Duke, onward via a crocodile farm in Australia and a spell in a Florida State Penitentiary by the 12th Duke, who ran the laundry during his stay!

I bet some will love this family for its sheer absurdity and utter fall from grace! I will add more if anyone likes?


 

   

 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Vecchiolarry on April 09, 2009, 06:59:29 PM
Hi,

So, Consuelo's money didn't stop the flow towards poverty & ruin...
I've heard of her as one of the first "Dollar Duchesses" or "Dollar Princesses"...
I think Consuelo Vanderbilt was named after her and then unfortunately followed in her footsteps.  I'm currently reading Greg King's book on the Gilded Age but haven't gotten to the part about the "selling of all those daughters to the princes" yet...  What price a tiara???

Larry
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 09, 2009, 08:59:07 PM
The Dukes of Manchester  - a bit of general blurb

Why did the Manchester fortunes seemingly vanish? Well it is probably simplest to compare this line of the family to the senior branch of House of Montagu. Although the elder line became extinct in 1745, the family estate including the mansion at Boughton, that is today known as the 'English Versailles' passed through the female line to the Scott Dukes of Buccleuch, who eventually added the Montagu surname to their own. Those lucky Buccleuchs subsequently inherited the Dukedom of Queensberry along with the Douglas surname and its vast patrimony, thus uniting three ducal interests and creating one of the greatest collections of castles, mansions and works of art in existence to this day!

The Dukes of Manchester are descend from the younger brother of the 1st Baron Montagu of Boughton who was founder of the line from which the Dukes of Montagu rose and fell, and from whom Boughton eventually passed to the Buccleuchs. The founder of the collateral line of Montagus, trained as a lawyer, as he had little prospect of inheriting any significant part of the Montagu lands as a younger son. Instead, this man acquired his own landed interests in the neighbouring county of Huntingdon and eventually acquired a place in the Lords as Viscount Mandeville and Baron Kimbolton in 1620, when peerages could be bought for 10,000 pounds. It was in the following year, that the new Viscount's elder brother got his own coronet when he became Baron Montagu of Boughton.

In 1626 Viscount Mandeville was promoted in the coronation honours of Charles I and became Earl of Manchester. His great great grandson, the 4th Earl would be rewarded for little more than a rather inconsequential career as a diplomat with a ducal coronet in 1719, fourteen years after his cousin, the Lord of the Manor of Boughton climbed from Earl of Montagu to his Dukedom. Thereafter the two branches jogged along together with another branch, that founded by the younger brother of the 1st Lord Montagu of Boughton and of the 1st Earl of Manchester which was also established in Huntingdonshire under the nominal head of the Earls of Sandwich. It is relevant to note that the 1st Earl of Manchester apparently bought the estate of Hinchingbrooke, not far from his own seat at Kimbolton, and settled it on his younger brother, thus providing the future Earls of Sandwich with a landed interest conducive to their status. Even more pertinent, is that the 1st Earl left all his sons other than his heir to the Earldom well provided for including his fifth son, who inherited the estate of Horton in Northamptonshire, which eventually became the seat of his son, Charles Montagu, 1st Earl of Halifax.

This liberality with regards to distribution of property, demonstrates what may be construed as a fatal error on the part of the 1st Earl, who having worked so hard to build up his landed interests and buy his way into the Lords, subsequently scattered a fair proportion amongst his younger male progeny, rather than leave it intact to his successor as Earl of Manchester. Perhaps the 1st Earl envisaged that his sons and grandsons would use their inheritances to their advantage,through personal labour and lucrative marriages to heiress as a way to build upon the interests he provided. In this his descendants the Earls of Sandwich, such a hypothesis was proved relatively successful, as they became exemplars of the patrician classes, living in comfort down the ages at Hinchingbrooke and taking an active and for the most part benevolent interest in county affairs, whilst at Kimbolton their cousins the Manchesters did likewise for a few generations at least, until the 4th Earl was promoted and the pressures of maintaining the dignity of a Dukedom eventually proved too cumbersome to bear without embarrassment for his descendants.

Meanwhile at Boughton, the senior branch went from strength to strength in their quest for pre-eminence. The 3rd Lord Montagu of Boughton recognized the relative modesty of his landed interests and embarked on a highly successful career at court, that blossomed during the most fraught period of Charles II's reign. Ralph Montagu became Master of the Great Wardrobe which came with a very useful salary in excess of 1,000 pounds per annum and various perquisites which would in time find their way into the chambers of the splendid new mansion he intended to build at Boughton. This magnifico of his age served as Ambassador to France and he even had time to marry two of the richest widows in the realm. In the case of his second marriage, Montagu showed just how mercenary and avaricious he could be, as his quarry the widowed Duchess of Albermarle, though incredibly rich in her own right as well as that of her late husband, was quite mad and had been heard to declare that she would never remarry unless her husband was an anointed sovereign. Ever resourceful, Ralph, 3rd Lord Montagu of Boughton ordered a suitably splendid and oriental looking outfit from his tailors and began to court the potty Duchess as the Emperor of China!

Once married to his 'Empress' Montagu set about his scheme to transform Boughton into a magnificent home. What he really wanted was a Dukedom. He seemed to spend the next decade and a half working towards this with the help of his wife's huge resources which he spent with relish. By 1705 he won his prize and became Duke of Montagu.

Whilst the new Dukes of Montagu and their descendants enjoyed lives of near unpararelled ducal spelndour at Boughton and later when it became just ones of numerous homes, the Manchesters spent the next century on the periphery, jogging along in comfort, but makig no attempt to enhance their fortunes or their profile. The 2nd Duke of Manchester married the 2nd Duke of Montagu's daughter Lady Isabella and this marriage could have greatly enhanced the fortunes of the Manchester branch, had the couple produced any children, but instead the Dukedom passed to his brother in turn. He, the 3rd Duke did not make such an auspicious marriage nor did his successors. The 5th Duke of Manchester was actually obliged to take the post of Governor of Jamaica in order to avoid the embarrassment of a constant lack of funds with which to maintain his dignity and that of his family.

To be continued.....
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 09, 2009, 09:16:27 PM
The Dukes of Manchester - a bit more general blurb!

It is perhaps easier to understand the position of the Dukes of Manchester, when one remembers that Dukes of the realm were duty bound by their birthright and rank to live and behave in a manner befitting their exulted rank. This attitude only began to alter gradually, as a consequence of the social democratic changes that took root in Britain during the years after Waterloo and which eventually culminated in universal suffrage in the last century. Saying this, even up to the eve of the Great War, the aristocracy was expected to behave and live in a certain way. Those who did not conform were often encouraged to 'see the colonies,' and some 'gentlemen' who did something really disgraceful, such as appearing drunk in society were black balled and sent to Coventry. They were literally cut out of the social scene, hence the term. Others such as repeat offenders of such crimes and a few more including those unspeakable types known as cads and bounders, who 'god forbid' behaved in an unseemly fashion toward young ladies or (absolute horror of horrors!!!!) youths, were often pressured into 'doing the honourable thing.' rather than risk bringing disgrace upon their families! Rank and the closing of ranks went hand in hand during this period. Appearance was all!

Respite from the constant pressures that a Dukedom without the necessary means of support could entail, finally came to an end when the 6th Duke of Manchester managed to contract a marriage of real and immediate monetary benefit. His bride, the daughter and heiress of a Huntingdonshire neighbour brought into the family the splendid Tandragee estate in Ulster. This legacy along with another modest estate not far from the ducal seat at Kimbolton, basically doubled the ducal income with the ink barely dry of the marriage certificate, and appeared to give the Dukedom a more adequate landed interest with which to service and maintain the wearer of the Manchester coronet in a worthy style to the manner born!

No Larry, the Yznagas were pretty shrewd! At the time of her marriage, Consuelo hardly brought a fortune to the Manchesters, though she had the expectation of getting a very sizable sum from her father in time. What is most interesting is that Consuelo and her brother Ferdinand later tied up her money in various very safe trusts. By the time she died in 1909, Consuelo would have been all to aware of just what a wastrel her only surviving child was! In fact the 9th Duke was by far the worst of his family. He was utterly beyond the pale. His own father in law did a similar thing as his mother, in protecting his daughter's inheritance by tying it up for a generation.

Kim the 8th Duke was appalling but his son and successor was worse where money was concerned that is....IMHO. I guess this may have been because he lived so much longer than his dissolute father!

It is so sad to see what happened to the Manchesters. The Sparrow inheritance really should have put the Dukedom on a firm financial footing and had the 8th and 9th Dukes behaved, the Yznaga and Zimmerman fortunes would no doubt have brought relief during the agrarian depression and seen the Dukedom through so to speak. But alas, it was all too late by the time the 10th Duke succeeded. He more or less abandoned Britain and settled in Africa where he lived like his ancestors had, with a vast retinue of servants to maintain his home and where he owned and ran a vast estate in a style which was simply no longer possible to maintain in Britain at that time.
 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Vecchiolarry on April 09, 2009, 10:50:14 PM
Hi,

Gads!!!  Potty duchesses courted by phony Chinese Emperors!!!  I just love it!!!
I've now finished reading and digesting your entries and am now off to bed to dream, no doubt, about potty duchesses, dressed up dragon Emperors and poor Mary nosediving into the sea!!!

Pity the English aristocracy is so dull today - - or are they???  Enquiring minds want to know!!

Larry
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 10, 2009, 12:29:00 AM
The Dukes of Manchester continued:-

Ooo...Larry you have Greg King's book about the gilded age....I have yet to buy a copy but will! I loved his 'court of the last Tsar'...it was so well put together and full of fascinating data that so needed to be gathered into one lovely big tome! Thank goodness Greg undertook that project!

Actually, last week I ordered his 'Twilight of Splendour' which I bet is just a wonderful as 'Tsar'.

With regards to the 'vanished fortunes' of the Manchesters and how the 8th Duke is IMHO responsible in part for this....well...lets go back a tad.....

Kim's father, William, 7th Duke appears to have been the embodiment of an upstanding and respectable mid Victorian Duke. Whilst it was the 7th Duke's father who extended and embellished the new family seat of Tandragee in Armagh, it was his son and successor who really benefited from the Sparrow inheritance. Interestingly the 5th Duke of Manchester was the last of his line to hold the Lord Lieutenancy of Huntingdonshire, a literal personal family office, which had been held by every Earl and Duke of Manchester at some time during their lives, since the 1st Earl's appointment in 1624. Although the 6th and 7th Dukes represent the family seat as MPs for the county, neither made any lasting mark.

The 7th Duke inherited the Dukedom and entailed family estates at the age of thirty two in 1855, having sat in the Commons in the Tory interest first for Bewdley in Worcester before transferring to the family seat of Huntingdonshire. In 1851 the future 7th Duke met the daughter of courtier at the court of King Enrnest Augustus of Hanover, Countess Louise von Alten. With uncharacteristic zeal Viscount Mandeville, as he was then known began to woo this young woman who was universally admired as one of the great beauties at the Hanoverian Court. For her part the twenty year old Louise was probably enchanted by such attentions, after all Mandeville would one day be a Duke which may have made his suit rather more tempting than his general person.

At the time of their marriage in July 1852, Mandeville, having made a brief career in the army was now at the start of a new career in Parliament, where he was still cutting his teeth in the Commons and had recently been appointed to a junior post in the new Tory ministry of Lord Derby as a Lord in waiting to Prince Albert. In the notorious Who? Who? Ministry, as Lord Derby's first government became know, Mandeville's post was little more than symbolic and it would not take his wife long to come to appreciate just how limited her spouse's political abilities were. Nonetheless the anticipation of his one day inheriting the Dukedom and its elegant if somewhat austere looking principal seat at Kimbolton and the charming castle in Armagh with its folly like turrets and homogeny of styles probably kept Louisa occupied as she dutifully began breeding the requisite heir, who would grow up to become the 8th Duke followed by a daughter. Then, in 1855 with the death of her father in law, Mandy, as she called her husband lost his seat in the Commons and entered the Lords as 7th Duke of Manchester, and Louisa found herself chatelaine of Kimbolton and Tandragee.

By ducal standards Kimbolton was certainly an acceptable principal seat, the only reminder of its past incarnations as a castle that had once the home of Katherine of Aragon and was the place of her death, were the surviving tudor mullions and vaulting in the subterranean basement and the decorative battlements which Sir John Vanburgh added to the four elegantly austere and regular silver grey facades of the mansion he was commissioned to create around a suitably imposing courtyard that survived intact from earlier eras.

 From the outside the Castle was deceptively regular and neat and in harmony with the alluvial and verdant countryside that made up the surrounding estate. But within, many considerations were made in adapting the pre-existing remnants of the older building. Vanburgh carried out similar work in Lincolnshire for the 1st Duke of Ancaster and Kesteven, but at Kimbolton the evidence of a much tighter budget produced a more restrained result. It is important to note that the first three Earls of Manchester preferred to repair and extend rather than rebuild the castle, and the 4th Earl who in 1719 became 1st Duke only employed Vanburgh to carry out extensive rebuilding works after one of the ranges at the castle subsided so dangerously that a surveyor's reports declared the building at risk of collapse! As we have already seen, funds for a complete rebuild were not at hand to Manchester and therefore, unlike the works he carried out at Blenheim and Castle Howard, Vanburgh was obliged to restrain his talents and incorporate as much of the existing house as he could salvaged into the resulting house that 7th Duke and Duchess moved in to in 1855. Like many examples of castles of old, a village had stood in the shadow of the walls of the castle at Kimbolton for centuries, but unlike many other eighteenth century owners of similar structures, who either demolished and rebuilt new seats far from the the settlements of their tenants, or as in the case of the 5th Duke Devonshire, moved entire villages away in order to a create a more appealing aspect from the big house, the Castle at Kimbolton remained firmly entrenched on the edge of the town, with its gate house added for the 4th Duke to the designs of Robert Adam, facing directly onto the main thoroughfare that passed through the town.

Here at Kimbolton the 7th Duke and Duchess and their family lived in great comfort, for unlike some ducal piles, Kimbolton was primarily a home rather than a showpiece built to herald great wealth and prestige!


 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 10, 2009, 05:38:47 PM
Well Larry, a lot of Dukes tended to go to ground during the later part of the last century. In some cases this was due to declines in family fortunes. In others it was a case of Dukes realizing that where they predecessors had been dubbed eccentric, when if fact most were merely being uber individual as their rank and status permitted, the increasing intrusion of the press into the very highest echelons of British society put an end to flagrant ducal misbehaviour.

Occassionally, a Duke or a member of his family would emerge and become 'the talk of the town' for a while, but most who survivied in Britain were too busy trying to protect what was left of their patrimonies.

Probably the most sensational story run in British newspapers during the last century about Dukes and Duchesses, was that of Margaret, Duchess of Argyll and the photographs of the headless man! Even today, in an age of celebrity obsessive madness, where lurid acts of intimacy are often captured on mobiles and downloaded and feasted over on the internet, the scandal that erupted over the graphic photographs of a woman wearing nothing but some superb pearls, performing an act of extreme intimacy upon an unidentified male, is still well known. Some of those polaroid photographs discovered hidden at Margaret's flat by her suspicious husband had captions scrawled on them, "before," - "thinking of you"- "during,"- "Oh," and "after." which need no explanation!

 Margaret Argyll's understandably outraged husband Ian, subsequently petitioned for divorce. But rather shockingly, he insisted upon having the photographs included as evidence in his case against his wife. It caused a sensation at the time, not only because Margaret was branded a nymphomaniac, but because the headless man in the photographs could, according to the Duke, have been any one of up to eighty eight men he suspected of having enjoyed his wife's favours!

 In court, the issue of the identity of the naked woman was initially disputed until blown up copies and magnifying glasses were passed out and the photographs scrutinized thoroughly and it was confirmed that the magnificent pearl necklace being worn was irrefutably that belonging to Margaret. Then the identity of the man was pondered but it was a moot point, as Margaret was flagrantly guilty of having committed adultery and Argyll was granted his divorce. Neither party came out well from this sensationally sleazy episode. Margaret was branded for life as a complete 'harlot' whilst Argyll was regarded as having behaved appallingly badly and in a thoroughly ungentlemanly fashion by stooping so low as to air such 'filthy linen' in public! The judge in the case said Margaret had a 'sexual association.' with an unidentified man other than her husband in the bathroom of her London home. One journalistis wag wrote that the judge probably thought fellatio was a character from Shakespeare before he heard the Argyll case!!!

The debate over the identity of the headless man raged for decades! One candidate was Winston Churchill's son in law, Duncan Sandys, but after being examined by a Doctor in Harley Street, his pubic hair was found not to match that of the headless man!! Many believed the man was identifiable as Douglas Fairbanks Junior, but he firmly denied it. Nevertheless his handwriting was found to match the scrawl on the photos by a graphologist. The court case came only three years after the ban on 'Lady Chatterley's Lover' was lifted, which may have fueled the interest generated in the Argyll divorce case. As did the 'Profumo' Case which was also raging at the same time. Margaret was even dubbed the 'dirty Duchess'! Shortly before she died in 1993, with typical mischief, Margaret stated that the 'only polaroid camera in the country at the time, had been lent to the Ministry of Defence.' This crafty little comment inflamed speculation as to the identity of the headless man again. Fairbanks categorically denied he was the man until his death, and rather interestingly Duncan Sandys had worked at the Ministry of Defence during the period in which the polaroid photographs were believed to have been taken! Many now believe that their were in fact two headless men, namely Fairbanks and Sandys!   

Margaret was an amazing woman, I met her once in the early nineties and she was totally 'magnetic'. Even then, nearly thirty years after the disgrace of her divorce, she was still a familiar face. This was in part due to her being regarded as on of the best dressed women of her age, for her extraordinary feline beauty and her 'signature' coiffure! She was far too glamorous, self centered and spirited to have been married to a man like Argyll, even though he was a Duke.

The daughter of the Chairman of Celanese Corp, Margaret inherited a fortune from her Scottish born father. She was regarded as the most beautiful deb of her year. She was voted one of the top ten best dressed woman in the world, she was even immortalized in the lyrics of the British version of Cole Porter's song 'You're the top'. Margaret herself wrote of her life, 'The top was what I was supposed to be. I had become a Duchess and mistress of an historic castle. My daughter had married a Duke. Life was apparently roses all the way.'


 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 10, 2009, 07:43:29 PM
The present Duke and Duchess of Northumberland are another modern ducal couple who have been in the news and are familiar. They live at Alnwick Castle, which is known as the 'Windsor of the North' and is used as a setting for Hogwarts School in some scenes in the Harry Potter films. The family also has another 'pad' in London called Syon House, which for a place in the capital is quite something too, and contains some of the finest examples of of eighteenth century interiors in Britain! The conservatory is also quite impressive!!!!

Jane Duchess is an avid gardener and the brainchild behind the spectacular new gardens that have been laid out at Alnwick since husband Ralph succeeded to the Dukedom and they moved from an estate cottage into the Castle. Here is a link to an article about Jane Duchess, it has a picture of the wonderful cascade garden she commissioned...it really is stunning! On the following link is an article named 'Don't touch the plants' which is about one of Jane Duchess' garden features:-

http://www.broadwaytovegas.com/March6,2005.html

Prince Charles is a known admirer of Jane Duchess and her drive to create a lasting and perhaps equally pertinently a 'visitor drawing' legacy at Alnwick. The castle may be set in some of the most spectacular undulating countryside in the North of England, but this alone and the glorious castle with its sumptuous interiors are not enough to keep the visitor numbers consistent. With her love of gardening, Jane Duchess has not only been able to indulge her passion, but with the help her husband, who has parted with a very large wad of dosh in the process, she has given Alnwick a set of unique gardens, which are modern day equivalents of the spectacular horticultural grand designs created for aristocrats and Royalty in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

Having been born and brought up in a thoroughly middle class family, Jane Duchess never anticipated becoming Duchess of Northumberland when she married Lord Ralph Percy. But she has adapted to her position. When she began planning the gardens at Alnwick there were plenty of raised eyebrows. The sheer scale and litany of logistics, including a glitch where residents of some of the surrounding estate villages lost their water supplies, as pressure was drawn off the mains to feed the cascades, did little to ease doubts about the practicalities of the Duchess' vision. This was also confounded by the estimates of the vast amounts of money that was required to bankroll the schemes, but Duke Ralph proved very supportive throughout! In the end as pundits and skeptics predicted a monumental flop and a white elephant that would be out of place in the modern era, Jane Duchess and her team kept on going, and the resulting gardens have proved a spectacular success and the subject of numerous breathless and excited reviews, documentaries and conversations at dinner tables across the country. In time the Gardens of Alnwick will no doubt become as famous as the castle itself.

Here are links to the Northumberland homes:-

www.alnwickcastle.com
www.syonpark.co.uk

From the outside Alnwick Castle looks like a proper medieval fortress, but behind those rather grim grey walls lie a plethora of gorgeously appointed apartments full of glorious old masters and exquisite antiques! Likewise, Syon House looks rather austere and simple from the outside, but this is deceptive as the interiors are dazzlingly beautiful in my humble opinion!
 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 10, 2009, 08:24:01 PM
Here is link to the Alnwick garden site for anyone interested in how a contemporary Duchess with an interest in gardening, a spare ten acres of land at her disposal and a very generous husband by her side, can keep herself occupied!!!!

http://www.alnwickgarden.com/


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 10, 2009, 09:03:07 PM
The Dukes of St Albans, a dynasty of which I am rather fond, have merited little publicity. The 3rd Duke may have scuttled off to live on the continent when his debts threatened to overwhelm him, and the paternity of the 6th Duke may have raised suspicion in various quarters, and the 11th Duke's descent into lunacy and that of his brother, who tried to burn down Eton College, may have provoked gasps of horror, but it is the present heir to the Dukedom who really earned the publicity he provoked in 1999.

In a colourful scene that was caught on camera, Charles Beauckerk, Earl of Burford interrupted a debate over the reform of the House of Lords, and briefly entered the public eye!

Here is link to an article that reports what this impetuous man did:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/1999/oct/27/lordreform.constitution5

Subsequently Burford was banned from the Palace of Westminster for life, but a few weeks after this incident he was back....... albeit briefly ......

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19991105/ai_n14268143/

Anyway, I always wondered about Burford after these episodes, in particular his sanity, based in part on what had passed before in various members of his family!

But I tend to believe I was being mean and that the Earl is merely rather hot headed and his love of history as evidenced by his superbly researched and finely crafted biography of his ancestress Nell Gwynn, probably inflamed and provoked his response to the abolition of a Hereditary stronghold in the Lords! I now tend to think he probably feared that the monarchy would be seriously undermined by the scrapping of the rights of all but ninety two hereditary peers! The trouble was Burford went about his protest in a rather tempestuous fashion. Interrupting a venerable and polite debate by jumping up and down on the woolsack and ranting like a thwarted child whose favourite toy has been taken away from him by a mean grown-up, was hardly well planned or rational!
 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 12, 2009, 08:33:29 PM
Below are some links to web sites relating to ducal seats and estates present and past that may be of interest:-

The seat of the Dukes of Abercorn:-

http://www.barons-court.com/


The seat of the Dukes of Ancaster and Kesteven (extinct):-

http://www.grimsthorpe.co.uk


The seat of the Dukes of Argyll:-

http://www.inveraray-castle.com/


The seat of the Dukes of Atholl:-

http://www.blair-castle.co.uk


The seat of the Dukes of Beaufort

http://www.badminton-horse.co.uk/history/badminton_house.aspx (Those Beauforts have really pulled rank in recent years and there is very little around about the house!)


The seats of the Dukes of Bedford (past and present):-

http://www.woburn.co.uk 
http://www.bedfordestates.com
http://www.cheniesmanorhouse.co.uk
http://www.hotelendsleigh.co.uk

The seats of the Dukes of Buccleuch and Queensberry (Past and Present!)

http://www.drumlanrig.com
http://www.buccleuch.com/story/houses  - which has lots of data about the three combined patrimonies of the Montagu, Douglas and Scott families.


The principal seats of the Dukes of Buckingham and Chandos (extinct):_

http://www.stowe.co.uk/Stowe-House.aspx
http://www.chandoshouse.co.uk


The seat of the Dukes of Cleveland (extinct)

http://www.rabycastle.com


The seats of the Dukes of Devonshire (past and present):-

http://www.chatsworth.org (Arguably the most iconic ducal seat in Britain today. It well deserves it's reputation too!)
http://www.boltonabbey.com
http://www.holker-hall.co.uk  (Presently belongs to a collateral branch of the Cavendish Family in remainder to the Dukedom.)
http://www.lismorecastle.com


The seats of the Dukes of Dorset (extinct):-

http://nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-knole
http://www.buckhurstpark.co.uk


The principal former country seats of the Earls and Dukes of Fife:-

http://www.duffhouse.org.uk
http://www.marlodgeestate.org.uk


The past and present seats of the Dukes of Grafton:-

http://www.eustonhall.co.uk
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22778


The seats of the Dukes of Hamilton:-

http://www.vhpt.org (It will give one an idea of what the palace was like before it was tragically demolished)
http://www.lennoxlove.com


The seats of the Dukes of Kingston (extinct):-

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/Jacks1881/thoresby.htm
http://www.holmepierreponthall.com


The seats of the Dukes of Leeds (extinct):-

http://www.cpswandlebury.org/page2.html


The former seat of the Dukes of Leinster:-

http://www.cartonhouse.com


The principal former seat of the Dukes of Manchester:-

http://www.kimbolton.cambs.sch.uk/castlehistory.htm


The seat of the Dukes of Marlborough:-

http://www.blenheimpalace.com


The former seat of the Dukes of Montrose (who still own large swathes of land in the area and maintain a private residence near Drymen to this day)

http://www.visitdrymen.co.uk


The seat of the Dukes of Newcastle (4th creation - extinct)

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/Jacks1881/clumber.htm
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-clumber_park-2.htm


The seats of the Dukes of Norfolk (Past and present) and three other seats owned by collateral branches of Howards who are in remainder to the Dukedom:-

http://www.arundelcastle.com
http://www.sheffieldmanorlodge.org.uk
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/Jacks1881/worksop.htm (Sold to the 4th Duke of Newcastle by the 13th Duke of Norfolk, and subsequently subsumed into the Clumber estate.)
http://www.carltontowers.co.uk
http://www.greystoke.com
http://www.naworth.co.uk
http://www.castlehoward.co.uk (Probably the most famous non ducal country house in Britain due to its exposure in Brideshead Revisited! It is dazzling!)


The seats (former and present) of the Dukes of Northumberland:-

http://www.alnwickcastle.com
http://www.alburypark.co.uk
http://syonpark.co.uk


The seat of Earls, Marquesses and Dukes of Ormonde (The Earldom is dormant and the Marquessate and Dukedom both extinct) :-

http://www.kilkennycastle.ie


The seat of the Dukes of Portland (extinct) :-

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/Jacks1881/welbeckp1.htm

The seats past and present of the Dukes of Richmond, Gordon, Lennox and Aubigny

http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/scotgaz/features/featurehistory5160.html
http://www.goodwood.co.uk


The seat of the Dukes of Roxburghe

http://www.roxburghe.net


The seats of the Dukes of Rutland and a collateral branch in remainder to the Dukedom:-

http://www.belvoircastle.com
http://www.haddonhall.co.uk


The former seat of the Dukes of St Albans:-

http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/Jacks1881/bestwood.htm


The seats of the Dukes of Somerset and that of a collateral branch (the Marquesses of Hertford) who are in remainder to the Dukedom:-

http://www.bradleyhouse.org
http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server.php?show=nav.15446
http://www.ragleyhall.com

The former and present seats of the Earls (Presently the 24th Countess) and Dukes (Presently the 7th Duke) of Sutherland (A very complicated amalgamation and subsequent break up of four patrimonies, namely those of the Levesons, Gowers, Sutherlands and Egertons)

http://www.discovertheborders.co.uk/places/7.html  - seat of the present Duke of Sutherland and his family.
http://www.dunrobincastle.co.uk
http://lh.matthewbeckett.com/houses/lh_staffordshire_trenthamhall.html
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/Default.aspx?id=427576   - There used to be a site with marvelous details about the interiors but it has vanished.


The seats of the Dukes of Wellington:-

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server.php?show=nav.12679
http://www.stratfield-saye.co.uk


The seat and property of the Dukes of Westminster:-

http://lh.matthewbeckett.com/houses/lh_cheshire_eatonhall.html
http://www.eatonestate.co.uk
http://www.grosvenor.com


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 12, 2009, 10:51:13 PM
I hope that the links above will help some who happen across this thread and take the time to have a quick glance at a couple of the properties described, to better comprehend just how splendidly many of the nineteenth and early twentieth century Dukes and Duchesses of the realms were able to live.

It is not unreasonable to say that in most cases, Dukes and their immediate family were well able to afford to live in a style akin to that of members of the Royal family other than the sovereign. In fact some had incomes which exceeded even that of the of the Prince of Wales.  All non royal Dukes enjoyed incomes that easily exceeded those enjoyed by the likes of the Tecks, the Christians of Schleswig Holstein and the Henry Battenbergs. In fact, all but four Dukes whose income were calculated and published in 1880, enjoyed British based incomes that were greater than those of any Princes of Great Britain and Ireland excluding the Prince of Wales. I also exclude the Duke of Cumberland because his landed interests lay outside the remit of British property and I do not believe that he, the 3rd Duke, was in receipt of an annuity from the British treasury at this time. I have also chosen, for the sake of simplicity, not to include possible dividends from investment portfolios etc. If I had, I would fully appreciate that various Royal incomes would have been greatly enhanced, but then again, so would have numerous ducal ones also!






Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: TampaBay on April 13, 2009, 09:21:39 AM
Toots,

How about some info on the Duke of Westminster and Duke of Abercorn?

Thanks!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 14, 2009, 10:54:54 PM
With pleasure Tampabay! Unfortunately I am away from home for a couple of days so can only give you a little bit off the top of my head at present...but it may prove of interest nonetheless! I shall start with Gerald and Natalia Westminster!

When Gerald Grosvenor was born in 1951, his 1st cousin once removed, the 2nd Duke was still alive. In fact there were three adult males in more direct line of succession to the Dukedom at the time. Cousin Bend'Or as the 2nd Duke was known, lived in unimaginable splendour dividing his time between Eaton Hall, the sprawling neo gothic ducal seat in Cheshire, the Reay Forest estate in Sutherland, a chateau in France where he kept a pack of hounds with which to hunt wild boar, a palatial home in London, a private steam train and railway connecting Eaton to the mainline railway network and a beautifully appointed yacht. At the time of Gerald's birth, cousin Bend'Or was already busy arranging a water tight policy by which he and a succession of lawyers managed to tie up the majority of the valuable Grosvenor patrimony in some twenty trusts. When Bend'Or died a portion of the acreage was sold to meet duties on a portion of the 2nd Duke's personal estate, but it hardly dented the family fortunes. This was at a time when the notorious Bend'Or and the Grosvenor estates Group were in receipt of an income in excess of 10,000 pounds a day! Little Gerald Grosvenor would one day inherit not only the Dukedom of Westminster but the only income generating shares in the trusts established by the 2nd Duke. One day Gerald would become the richest man in Britain, a position he held on and off for over twenty years, before a football mad Russian oligarch supplanted him and then a steel tycoon from India relegated Westminster to third place in the UK rich list.

After Bend'Or 2nd Duke died in 1953 he was succeeded by his 'mad' cousin, William, 3rd Duke (1894 - 1963) who lived in seclusion in a house tucked away out of sight with a small staff of retainers. He occupied part of his time breeding ducks, whilst trustees administered the Grosvenor estates and no doubt looked on with wry amusement as the Inland Revenue established a new department specifically to try and establish just how monolithic and hopefully  death duty taxable the Grosvenor patrimony was! In the end Bend'Or had done an admirable job in protecting the estates. When the mad 3rd Duke died the Dukedom passed to his first cousin, Gerald 4th Duke (1907 - 1967) a veteran soldier who never fully recovered his health after seeing action during World War II. A respected soldier and man of ability Gerald was appointed Lord Steward in 1964 and died in office in 1967. He was succeeded by his brother Robert, 5th Duke (1910 - 1979).  This Duke and his wife Viola had three children, Lady Leonora who married the Queen Mother's great nephew, the impossibly glamorous Patrick Anson, 5th Earl of Lichfield, Gerald who succeeded his father as 6th Duke and Lady Jane Dawnay, who married as his first wife, Guy Innes Kerr, 10th Duke of Roxburghe.   

Robert future 5th Duke of Westminster made Ulster his home after the war. He and his brother had close familial ties to the province as their mother, Lady Mabel Grosvenor was a daughter of the 4th Earl of Erne, who owned a large estate at Crom Castle in Co Fermanagh. More interesting still, was the fact that the the Grosvenors and Ernes were linked by the marriage of Mabel's brother, Henry, Viscount Crichton to Hugh Lupus, 1st Duke of Westminster's daughter, Lady Mary Grosvenor, aunt to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Dukes of Westminster. Henry and Mary had a daughter, Lady Kathleen Crichton who married the James Hamilton, 4th Duke of Abercorn. Thus the present Dukes of Westminster and Abercorn are second cousins and were close neighbours when Gerald was a boy.

In fact Gerald Grosvenor had little idea of just what a huge inheritance awaited him until the his uncle Gerald, 4th Duke died in 1967. Until then, Gerald's parents lived at Ely Lodge in Fermanagh, where Colonel Lord Robert Grosvenor had worked as a gentleman farmer. Only with his father's accession to the Dukedom did the sixteen year old Gerald become fully aware of the extent of what awaited him. He had wanted to be a professional footballer and this was apparently only quashed at his father's behest. Instead he was expected to be groomed to take over the family estates. At the time trustees, were running the vast portfolio of properties and it was anticipated that young Gerald would follow his father's example and allow the trustees to continue to act for him and the family when he succeeded and that he would run the agricultural side of things

In fact Gerald's academic track record was hardly reassuring. He failed to get into Sandhurst and instead joined the Territorial Army. He thrived and eventually did get into Sandhurst and embarked on a military career proper. His involvement in the TA has been long standing.The neo gothic Eaton Hall of the 1st Duke's day had been more or less entirely demolished and in 1970 the 5th Duke commissioned his brother in law to design a new ducal seat. The resulting modernist house was IMHO absolutely vile, and one commenator said it looked like the 'largest service station' in Cheshire.....believe me it did!!! Internally it was actually rather nice, but nothing could detract from the horror of that stark, white concrete exterior! Thankfully in the 1990s the house underwent a major program of alteration and now looks rather more pleasing in its present guise!

Anyway, in 1966 Gerald's cousin, James Marquess of Hamilton married Alexandra Phillips and in time, Gerald came to know 'Sacha's' sister Natalia. In 1978 the nineteen year old Natalia married Gerald and in the following year, with the death of her father in law, she became Duchess of Westminster. Interesting the Phillips girls were not only linked to the Royal Families of Europe through their maternal great grand father, Grand Duke Michael Mikhailovich of Russia but also via Janet Bryce,wife of the 3rd Marquess of Milford Haven, to the Mountbattens. Janet was a first cousin of Alexandra and Natalia's father!

The Westminsters and the Abercorns remained close neighbours in Northern Ireland until the 1980s when Gerald sold the Ely Lodge estate. Now the Westminster family divides its time between Eaton Hall in Cheshire, Abbeystead House in Lanacshire, the Reay Forest estate in Scotland and the La Garganta estate in Spain, which the Duke has been leasing from a member of the Wittelsbach family.

Gerald and his brother in law James Abercorn are both Knights of the Garter, and the latter is Lord Steward.

I shall add more when I get home if you would like?
 

Stuff such as the Lady Tamara Grosvenor- Edward Van Cutsem marriage which purportedly instigated the Prince of Wales to get on with plans to marry Camilla. etc.....may be of interest! Then there is Hugh Van Cutsem's marriage into the British branch of the Astor dynasty!

I do find it interesting how the Grosvenor fortunes have remained pretty huge and intact when compared to those of the American Astors! I guess entailed patrimony may have played a major factor in this though, as the Astor fortunes was repeatedly weakened by generational division in a way similar to that of the Vanderbilt millions.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: ashdean on April 15, 2009, 06:07:03 AM


Anyway, in 1966 Gerald's cousin, James Marquess of Hamilton married Alexandra Phillips and in time, Gerald came to know 'Sacha's' sister Natalia. In 1978 the nineteen year old Natalia married Gerald and in the following year, with the death of her father in law, she became Duchess of Westminster. Interesting the Phillips girls were not only linked to the Royal Families of Europe through their maternal great grand father, Grand Duke Michael Mikhailovich of Russia but also via Janet Bryce,wife of the 3rd Marquess of Milford Haven, to the Mountbattens. Janet was a first cousin of Alexandra and Natalia's father!
Aleaxandra and Natalia had a much stronger link to the Mountbattens.Their maternal grandmother Lady Zia Werhner...chatelaine of Luton Hoo with its unimaginable collections formed by her father in law Sir Julius Werhner the diamond magnate ....was the elder sister of Nadejda wife of of the 2nd Lord Milford Haven

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 15, 2009, 06:21:50 AM
Needless to say Ashdean!!! I just wanted to highlight that the Phillips girls had links to various Royal Families on both sides and not just by blood through their mother! I think it makes it really interesting how 'keeping it in the family' continues to this day!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: TampaBay on April 17, 2009, 08:18:21 AM

Stuff such as the Lady Tamara Grosvenor- Edward Van Cutsem marriage which purportedly instigated the Prince of Wales to get on with plans to marry Camilla. etc.....may be of interest! Then there is Hugh Van Cutsem's marriage into the British branch of the Astor dynasty!

I do find it interesting how the Grosvenor fortunes have remained pretty huge and intact when compared to those of the American Astors! I guess entailed patrimony may have played a major factor in this though, as the Astor fortunes was repeatedly weakened by generational division in a way similar to that of the Vanderbilt millions.


Toots,

I am very interested so please proceed.

Who are the Van Cutsem's?  Which Astor married into this family?

TampaBay
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 18, 2009, 02:30:51 PM
Here is a link which pretty much explains the Van Cutsems and their links to the Westminsters amd Astors!


http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/van-cutsem-family-9295.html
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: TampaBay on April 19, 2009, 12:03:58 PM
Here is a link which pretty much explains the Van Cutsems and their links to the Westminsters and Astors!


http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/van-cutsem-family-9295.html

GADZOOKS!  "The Royal Forums" is quite a riotous place!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 19, 2009, 02:07:50 PM
The Royal Forum can be quite useful. I am not a member though! There are various experts on the threads there though and some of the tit bits one can scavenge are often original and reliable. Personally I find it rather intimidating though, as it can sometimes get quite 'cliquey' there! That's not a criticism of the Royal Forum....it's just that sometimes I feel rather out of my depth there!

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 22, 2009, 02:30:45 AM
Ooooh....urmmm...gulp....I am rather surprised that this topic has been 'promoted' to the Windsor thread....as I only began it as a sort of 'ducal' British version of 'the Mediatised Families' topic and a variant of a topic such as would appear in the 'Russian Noble Families' thread.
   I did wonder when I started this topic where best to put it, but would never have dared to put it here in 'The Windsors' as I thought many members would object as the Ducal dynasties of Britain are not Royal, though a couple may enjoy relatively close familial links to the House of Windsor, but not many!
  I do so hope that no one minds this topic being here, as although I had hoped more people would have joined the discussion down in 'Their World and Culture', I was quite happy just to trundle along adding bits and bobs for any visitors who did happen to drop in....and was becoming quite use to having a 'low' profile down there!!! I really do hope that no one thinks this is an 'interloper' thread trying to barge it's way up the ranks! I didn't ask for it to be moved here.... honest!!!!!!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 22, 2009, 02:56:45 AM
Ooops...sincerest apologies....I must proof read more carefully before I post. I have just noticed that I made an error ages back in a post where I spoke about the 3rd Duke of Buckingham and Chandos. I stated that Chandos House was built for the 1st Duke of Chandos, which is wholly incorrect! The house was built to designs of Robert and James Adam for Sir George Colebrooke and was soon afterward acquired by the 3rd Duke of Chandos. I think I must have been dwelling on the magnificent and legendary Cannons, the huge mansion built by the 1st Duke near Edgware as I was writing!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on April 23, 2009, 06:02:13 AM
When you come stumbling upon this topic..... think and seek the theme from 'Brideshead Revisited'.......please  note........... NOT the film but the breathtakingly apt theme written by Geoffrey Burgon for the 1981 TV production!!! It was and remains sublime as all good music does!!! It will hopefully give many an idea of the England...ooops... I mean....Britain..... of my grand parents' time,  and those of manifold other members too! Historically no other country comes close to my "England, Wales,Scotland & Ulster"  in the hearts of so 'many' around this world we live in! It is this evocation which every poxy royal house and aristocratic dynasty of  Europe covets, rolled into one they have all hoped to be thus and maintain such a status quo, yet the (Brits- there's no such thing anymore if you ask me.... actually, was there ever such a thing a as a Britain?)/English/Scots/Welsh and some Irish have managed to maintain and 'realize' this idyll long after all the others have become dust!!!!!  Oooh.... does this sound a tad jingoistic..perhaps this is what some 'English' subjects feel when they hanker for a 'smidgeon' of pride in their past!


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: alixaannencova on May 01, 2009, 06:02:56 PM
As mentioned earlier Natalia, Duchess of Westminster is relatively low profile compared to her elder sister, Alexandra, Duchess of Abercorn. Below is a link to a brief bio about Natalia Westminster from the family estate website:-

http://www.grosvenorestate.com/About/Family/The+Duchess+of+Westminster.htm

The following links provide some information about Alexandra Abercorn and her principal interests. The Duchess has a much higher profile than her younger sister and is very much involved in local issues in Ulster:-

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/leicestershire/42698

http://pushkintrust.com/home.htm

http://www.barons-court.com/pushkin.html

The present Duke of Abercorn is currently Lord Steward. This office was held from 1964 until 1967 by the present Duke of Westminster's uncle, the 4th Duke! Here is a rather scanty link about the job:-

http://www.royal.gov.uk/TheRoyalHousehold/OfficialRoyalposts/TheLordSteward.aspx
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Lucien on October 08, 2009, 01:12:21 AM
Dinner is served,Your Grace.

Unique picture:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218628/Ten-dukes-dining-Gathered-lunch-unique-picture-grandees-2bn-340-00-acres-them.html

courtesy Dowager who posted the link on the GREMB. :)

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: CountessKate on October 09, 2009, 06:59:24 AM
In one of her novels, Nancy Mitford had a French character express surprise that a British hostess could fill a dinner party with dukes from the UK and there would be no problems, as each duke would meekly accept their precedence on the basis of the creation of their dukedom.  In France, inviting all French dukes to dinner would create an fight of epic proportions as each duke trampled one another for precedence and would probably end in all the guests storming off in a huff, never to speak to their hosts again.  One of the problems would be that the dukedoms of the Bourbons, Orleans and Bonaparte reigns would all be in contention; another would be in-fighting amongst the groupings themselves.  It's nice to see that today's British dukes are even mellower - no one is taking precedence at all.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Vecchiolarry on October 09, 2009, 10:20:38 AM
Hi,

Back in the fifties, I once heard this true story: -

George V and Queen Mary wanted to invite the Aga Khan to a state dinner at Windsor.
They enquired from their protocol chief as to what precendence should be observed since the Aga Khan was perceived as 'a god' to his followers.
The protocol chief answered:  "He may be a god but no one outranks a British Duke!!"......

Larry
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on December 08, 2009, 06:21:59 AM
Needless to say I greatly enjoyed the posts about the British dukedoms - thanks!
When you come stumbling upon this topic..... think and seek the theme from 'Brideshead Revisited'.......please  note........... NOT the film but the breathtakingly apt theme written by Geoffrey Burgon for the 1981 TV production!!! It was and remains sublime as all good music does!!! It will hopefully give many an idea of the England...ooops... I mean....Britain..... of my grand parents' time,  and those of manifold other members too! Historically no other country comes close to my "England, Wales,Scotland & Ulster"  in the hearts of so 'many' around this world we live in! It is this evocation which every poxy royal house and aristocratic dynasty of  Europe covets, rolled into one they have all hoped to be thus and maintain such a status quo, yet the (Brits- there's no such thing anymore if you ask me.... actually, was there ever such a thing a as a Britain?)/English/Scots/Welsh and some Irish have managed to maintain and 'realize' this idyll long after all the others have become dust!!!!!  Oooh.... does this sound a tad jingoistic..perhaps this is what some 'English' subjects feel when they hanker for a 'smidgeon' of pride in their past!
This is a tad jingoistic, but I think it's true. And especially poignant on this forum, where so much is centred around an empress whose ideals were British (with the exception of parliamentary government) and whose own throne became dust. I think this "ideal of British idyll and stability" and its influence upon the various reigning and non-reigning royals even could deserve its own topic.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on February 07, 2010, 01:44:01 AM
I return!

Goodness seems like a lifetime!


Thank you Tainyi for your last response! Lovely to see!

I have a question...for all and sundry.......


Can anyone amongst our number possibly throw light on the Principality of Waterloo! I have been in tentative correspondence with Stratfield Saye and I think the assistant Librarian there an absolute Love, but before I go in and really start to squirrel, can any one amongst our number really explain the fundamentals of this unique Principality and what sort of role/position it really gave the 1st Duke of Wellington before the territory was incorporated into modern day Belgium! Was the Duke a Highness with powers - Serene or otherwise! Did he have a mediatized role as Prince! What of his successors...surely as one of the most unusual Princely Houses in Europe, the Wellesleys of Waterloo deserve some attention here at AP...especially as Princess Antonia of Prussia will in time 'probably' become the next Duchess of Wellington and Princess of Waterloo! Therefore the Earl of Mornington and future 10th Prince of Waterloo, Antonia's son as a descendant of Queen Victoria merits some interest here does he notice!

Any data would be appreciated HUGELY!




 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on February 07, 2010, 02:22:26 AM
Interesting issue. I'm afraid I don't know more than the English Wikipedia says (the Dutch says even less): Wikipedia: Prince of waterloo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Waterloo)
I didn't even know that there recently was a controversy in Belgium over the Prince's landholdings.

Was the Duke a Highness with powers - Serene or otherwise! Did he have a mediatized role as Prince! What of his successors...
Seems like all his descendants, even those who are not lords and ladies, are entitled to the Dutch noble title Jonkheer and Jonkvrouw, as members of the Dutch nobility! The correct predicate for them is Hoogwelgeboren Heer/Vrouwe, High-Well-Born Lord/Lady.

But what the Dutch predicate of the Prince himself might by? I think its either Hooggeboren Heer (High-born Lord), which is the predicate for Dutch dukes, marquises, counts and burggraves, or Doorluchtige Hoogheid, Serene Highness, which is the predicate for Belgian non-royal Princes. (But does that only apply to those who are Princes of the Holy Roman Empire? Several families were made princes in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands and in the Kingdom of Belgium (Grimbergen, Everberg, Merode etc.), but it seems it was more like a recognition of rank dating from the Holy Roman Empire and not new creations like Waterloo. There is one other non-royal Dutch princely family, the Princes de Riquet de Caraman, but their title also dates back to the Holy Roman Empire, so they're probably Serene Highnesses too.

The Prince of Waterloo was definately not a mediatized prince, his title was just a regular title in the nobility of the Kingdom of the United Netherlands. BTW why does he seem to belong to the Dutch (as in Hollands) post-1830 nobility when his estates seem to have been in Belgium? Because the original grantee was a friend of the Orange-Nassaus? But as he was a friend of Queen Victoria too I guess he also came into contact with her uncle, the new King of the Belgians.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on February 07, 2010, 03:02:45 AM
P.S. I see from Dutch-language sources that although the Prince-Duke collects extensive rents ($200,000 in one estimate) from his land near Waterloo in Walloon-Brabant, most of his tenant farmers are content with the situation.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on February 07, 2010, 03:17:25 AM
I believe the title of Prince of Waterloo was granted to the 1st Duke by the King William I of the Netherlands! Perhaps that is why the princely title is regards as Dutch in origin! Yet another interesting contradiction, but due to the massive changes post 1815 never the less explicable!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on February 07, 2010, 03:21:03 AM
I believe the title of Prince of Waterloo was granted to the 1st Duke by the King William I of the Netherlands! Perhaps that is why the princely title is regards as Dutch in origin!
But he was King of the Kingdom of the United Netherlands, which also incorporated modern Belgium.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on February 07, 2010, 04:43:57 AM
Did peers created before 1830 with designated territories in what became Belgium technically become Belgian peers or remain peers of the Dutch realm? Interesting point!? I don't know! I mean in England we have various peers of foreign designated territories formerly held and occupied by British Forces such as the Earldoms of Mountbatten of Burma, Alexander of Tunis, Kitchener of Khartoum and various Viscountcies and Baronies including that of Montgomery of Alamein! The Earldom of Nelson of Trafalgar and the Dukedom of Bronte are now held separately! It is also important to note that in almost all cases the peerages involving foreign 'military' geographical designations almost all went with British geographical designations as well! Waterloo and Bronte are amongst some that did not!

It would no doubt have been incomprehensible to the British to have given the Duke of Marlbrorough or the Duke of Wellington such titles as in Britain the title of Prince was reserved for those of the Blood Royal by birth not by merit! With the exception of Edward VII's perhaps 'snobbish' need to make the Ladies Alexandra and Maud Duff Princesses and George V's extremely 'courteous'  exception in the cases of Thora and Louie of Schleswig Holstein!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on February 11, 2010, 05:41:13 PM
This feels like 'vanity' writing about my favourite subject as I noticed before very few people seemed to contribute here and I felt like I was just boring members!

I will carry on though and see if anyone does venture in sometimes.

If any one has a questions I would be delighted to try and help out and would hope others in the know would also add anecdotes and the like!

As the highest ranking individuals in the realm after the sovereign and the members of the Royal Family....Dukes are and were a breed apart in the UK! Unlike Germany, the former HRE and Russia where Princes were two a penny....Dukes in Britain were the rarest creatures after those born into the purple! As we do not have Princes comparable to mediatized and non mediatized Princes in Britain, I tend to compare Dukes to European 'Hereditary' Princes. If in Britain we had had a federal system of principalities akin to the medieval duchies that once existed in England and to the Mormaers of Scotland, than I suppose the present Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry would be the hands down winner as the modern day exemplar and survivor of a territorial magnate equatable to a Continental Prince!

 Until 1999 Dukes along with all peers of the realm had a say in the governance of the UK by hereditary right, which I believe was the last governing assembly based on hereditary right in existence in the Western Liberal Democratic world! It is absolutely fascinating to me that it was swept away in such a manner! The aristocracy of Britain has been regarded as an antithesis since the fatal Lords crisis of 1911 and was mocked and despised for decades thereafter! Now all but two of the twenty four Dukes of the realms of the UK exist beyond the walls of Westminster with no more say as to how the country is governed than Joe Bloggs down the road, who votes by right with the ballot paper at the polling station every five years or so!

And yet the principals of hereditary rule remain in place in the UK in the person of the monarch! And the Lords remains....for the time being with its 92 hereditary members elected by the ranks and the rest by reward from successive governments and opposition recommendation! The marginalization of the aristocracy in the UK is perhaps a useful yard stick by which to observe and gauge the sustainability of the House of Windsor. A century ago the aristocracy was the celebrity fodder of the likes of Punch, the Illustrated London News and The Graphic which frequently carried stories and gossip about the aristocracy! Punch in particular used sharp wit and satire with rapier-like effect and the others were more akin to reverential early versions of the modern day Celeb obsessed 'Heat' and 'Vanity Fair'. In 1901 The Tatler was reestablished directly aimed at the aspirant and ambitious social climbers as well as the aristocracy! Dukes were fascinating to the general masses in those days as were their Duchesses because they represented the highest position one could reach! They were almost as rare as Royalty and described by one wag as often being 'ducally dull', but they still fascinated and enthralled! People today often speak of A list celebrities and Hollywood royalty....I suppose in the old days the aristocracy were the A list celebrities of their day and stars of the stage were ranked below them!

I suppose the advent of the Plutocratic strata of society in the UK did much to alter perceptions of celebrity! What with mustard and biscuit manufacturers and the like becoming familiar and glamorous figures about town! The seemingly terminal decline in the value of landed income as opposed to city investment and new money no doubt contributed further to New money succeeding Old money as the latter withdrew in on itself and quietly watched its seemingly terminal decline from behind the walls of shrinking and crumbling estates! Whilst the New Money got richer the Aristocracy found itself taxed to the hilt, ironically each death of the head of the family made dying a catastrophically expensive business to deal with! Perhaps there is an irony in there somewhere? In the end the Aristocracy lost its fundamental raison d'etre as a political and social force! No longer did the Big House provide for the social welfare of its tenants as Lloyd George introduced the concept of Pensions and village schools no longer relied on Patrician subscriptions as local councils took over the running and funding from church and parish! Every aspect of the Patrician position was undermined!

I do find this all fascinating when one looks at the history of the twenty four remaining Ducal dynasties in Britain and the parallels to the Monarchy!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 04, 2010, 09:57:51 PM
Thank you Fyodor Petrovich for you kind remarks on that other thread! You have galvanized me back into action on this thread! I am humbled! I am so pleased someone likes this subject matter! It enthralls me!

It is a real treat to get the opinions of a contemporary Duke and what he perceives to be his position in British society today! In light of what I wrote above about the present House of Lords, I feel that I have been quite prescient and topical!

The present Duke of Devonshire gave a really insightful and realistic interview which was published a few weeks ago! Interestingly, the Devonshires remain one of the most enduring and seemingly secure ducal dynasties in Britain today! I put this down to their luck in having hung on to and lovingly cherished Chatsworth, enhancing and exploiting it constantly and yet still living there and maintaining it as their family home! One of the most charming aspects of Chatsworth which strikes many visitors who see it for the first time, is that it is quite accessible and quite visible from a public road and is not hidden behind walls, lodges, gate houses and copses of strategically planted trees! Its as though the house glories in its setting and is inviting attention which it rightly deserves! It is one of the most enchanting houses of it's ilk in Britain!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/court_and_social/article7032213.ece

With the death knell of hereditary peers in the Lords being imminent if a the Labour election pledge to get rid of the remaining number is implemented, Dukes and their peers will find their titles hollow and meaningless in a Britain where one the Royal Family will continue to endure as an isolated example of the hereditary privilege and pseudo-feudalism!

It has been fascinating to watch those Dukes of the last thirty years who inherited ancestral piles deal with the modern world! Visiting a glorious treasure filled house has been an English past time for centuries but it has only become an income based incentive industry in the passed sixty odd years, when many private homeowners saw the potential when the National Trust was born and visiting country houses became a popular outing opportunity for the masses!

Chatsworth, Belvoir, Blenheim and Woburn to name but four ducal seats, are hugely popular tourist destinations for foreigners as well as natives! Especially Blenheim which has been milking Winston Churchill's association with the Palace like a cash cow for decades now! And why not? It makes sense to farm his memory for every penny when he was born there and visitors can see the very room where this greatest of Britons as voted by the General population took his first precarious breath in November 1874! Even Blenheim with its hordes of Churchillian fans streaming up its gloriously dramatic front steps year round, does not turn a profit but does more or less breaks even! Every penny is ploughed back into maintaining the vast palace, gardens and estate which is an ongoing operation! The only ducal home that is never open to paying customers whether as visitors or as part of corporate entertainment, is Badminton in Gloucestershire! It was accessible briefly but sadly shut its doors after a brief dabble in letting the riff raff have a look around! The house may be seen from the outside only during the annual Horse trials! How the Beauforts have managed to keep out the droves of paying visitors is a bit of a mystery to me! I guess that the family prefers its privacy more than an income to help pay for annual repairs! The sales of the Chines Bed and the most expensive piece of furniture of it's kind ever sold at auction probably helped keep the ducal coffers topped up and the nosey parker masses out!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article401044.ece

and a charming vignette about the bed!

http://blog.londonconnection.com/?p=852&cpage=1

I have just finished reading 'A Journey Through My Family - The Wellington Story' by Lady Jane Wellesley, which is the most marvelous history of the family written by the only daughter of the present Duke of Wellington. It is peppered with lovely anecdotes about this family which is completely overshadowed by the exploits of the Iron Duke and I leaned heaps of new things about successive Dukes and Duchesses! I am about to read the political papers of the 5th Duke of Leeds!. The Dukes of Leeds are my ultimate favourite ducal dynasty! They seemed always to loiter on the fringes of the rarefied echelons which they inhabited! But they threw up a few characters who broke the mould occasionally!
 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 04, 2010, 11:02:33 PM
I love your ducal outpourings. Please go on steady where you're heading!

The only ducal home that is never open to paying customers whether as visitors or as part of corporate entertainment, is Badminton in Gloucestershire! It was accessible briefly but sadly shut its doors after a brief dabble in letting the riff raff have a look around! The house may be seen from the outside only during the annual Horse trials!
And what a hideous sight it is! I am normally not crazy about the sterner sides of the Baroque, so Chatsworth is not very high on my list either, but as Baroque goes I admit it's quite passable in that stunning Peak District nature. But Badminton is just ugly disproportionate. Perhaps it would have looked better had that unemployed Queen Mary not turned her attention to the ivy! I can't believe the cupboard and the bed fetched that much, they look as odd as the house they hailed from.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 05, 2010, 09:53:20 PM
This famous luncheon has been linked somewhere here on the forum before but I can not for the life of me remember where it is?!

Anyway it really was a unique occasion and should have a link here too:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6263072/Dukes-gather-for-historic-Tatler-picture.html

I always thought it a great shame that Tatler didn't manage to get all twenty four Dukes together!

The Dukes who didn't attend were:-

Charles Gordon Lennox, 9th Duke of Richmond, Lennox, Gordon and Aubigny

Seat:    Goodwood, Chichester, West Sussex

Lineage:  Charles Lennox the love child of Charles II and his French mistress Louise de Keroualle, Duchess of Portsmouth was created Duke of Richmond and Lennox when he was just three years old!  His mother engineered to ensure her son was made a Duke before her rival Barbara Palmer, Duchess of Cleveland could gain Dukedoms for her three boys! Louise was also made Duchesse d'Aubigny by Louis XIV in 1684 and this title also perpetuates through her only child! Queen Victoria recreated the Dukedom of Gordon for the 6th Duke of Richmond, Lennox and Aubigny in 1876. The vast Gordon patrimony had passed into the Lennox family with the death of the 5th Duke of Gordon in 1836.

Miscellany:     The present Duke's uncle, Charles Gordon - Lennox, Lord Settrington who was at the time heir assumptive to the Dukedoms, survived active service in World War One only to decide when bored in 1919 to join the Royal Fusiliers as a brigade signals officer and went to Archangel to fight against the Bolsheviks. He died after being shot thus leaving his brother as heir.

Hugh Fitzroy, 11th Duke of Grafton

Seat:    Euston Hall, Thetford, Suffolk

Lineage:  The only surviving Dukedom of the four created for Barbara, Palmer and her three sons. The Dukedom of Grafton was created in September 1675.

Miscellany:   The present Duke is one of the four Dukes of the realms who are Knights of the Garter, the others are their Graces of Wellington, Abercorn and Westminster

David Somerset, 11th Duke of Beaufort

Sear:     Badminton House, Great Badminton, Gloucestershire

Lineage:   The Dukedom was created for the 3rd Marquess and 7th Earl of Worcester in 1682.

Miscellany:    The present Marchioness of Worcester wife of the heir to the Dukedom, is the sister of the actress Rachel Ward. Tracy Worcester is a renowned environmentalist and champion of animal welfare.


Peregrine Cavendish, 12th Duke of Devonshire

Seat:     Chatsworth, Bakewell, Derbyshire as well as Bolton Abbey, Yorkshire and Lismore Castle, Co Waterford, Eire

Lineage:   The 4th Earl of Devonshire became Duke of Devonshire and Marquess of Hartington in 1694

Miscellany:   The 10th Duke of Devonshire's personal physician was suspected serial killer John Bodkin Adams.


John Spencer Churchill, 11th Duke of Marlborough

Seat: Blenheim Palace, Woodstock, Oxfordshire

Lineage:  John Churchill a career soldier went from son of a Dorsetshire knight to a Dukedom and Marquessate in 1702 via two Baronies (1682) and (1685) and an Earldom (1689)

Miscellany: Duchess Gladys, second wife of 'Sunny' 9th Duke of Marlborough was an early advocate of cosmetic surgery. She had paraffin wax injected into the bridge of her nose to create a 'perfect' profile. The after effects of this novel treatment would prove tragically disastrous and Gladys would never appear in public without swathes of moire veils to conceal the appalling effects of her vain folly.


 Angus Douglas - Hamilton, the 15th Duke of Hamilton and Brandon

Seat:       Lennoxlove House, Haddington, East Lothian

Lineage:  Dukedom created by Charles i in 1643

Miscellany:  The present Duke is also the Hereditary Keeper of the Palace of Holyroodhouse and his grandmother Duchess Nina, set up a wonderful country sanctuary for refugee pets of Londoners during the Second World War!


Richard Montagu Douglas Scott, 10th Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry

Seat:    Drumlanrig Castle, Thornhill, Dumfries., Bowhill House, Selkirk, Scottish Boarders., Boughton House, Kettering, Northamptonshire., Dalkeith Palace, Edinburgh (The Palace is leased out but the estate is still owned by the Buccleuch Group)

Lineage: The Earldom dates back to 1619 and was heritable through the female line hence Anne Scott 4th Countess of Buccleuch held the title and estates. She married James Crofts (Later to adopt his wife's surname) Duke of Monmouth, eldest natural son of Charles II and his mistress Lucy Walters. In 1682 The Duke and his wife were jointly created Duke and Duchess of Buccleuch so that although the Dukes titles were forfeited when he tried to oust his uncle James II in 1685, the Duchess of Buccleuch's titles remained and perpetuated. The Montagu name and estate at Boughton came to the Buccleuchs through the marriage of the 3rd Duke of Buccleuch to Lady Elizabeth Montagu, eventual sole heiress of George Montague, 1st Duke of Montagu (2nd Creation) The Dukedom of Queensberry came into the family along with the Douglas surname via the 3rd Duke of Buccleuch's grandmother, Lady Jane Douglas, wife of the 2nd Duke of Buccleuch and daughter of John Douglas, 2nd Duke of Queensberry.

Miscellany:    The current Duke of Buccleuch and Queenberry is custodian of three combined ducal inheritances and therefore the owner of the most extensive landholdings in Great Britain.

John Murray, 11th Duke of Atholl

Seat:-   Balir Castle, Blair Atholl, Perthshire

Lineage:  The Earldom of Atholl was bestowed on a Murray in 1629. The Earldom of Tullibardine (1628) was united with that of Atholl in 1670.  A Marquessate followed in 1676 and a Dukedom in 1703.

Miscellany: The Atholl Highlanders is the only private army in Europe and is 'garrisoned' at Blair Castle. For the first time in its History the Atholl Highlanders  currently has three generations of the Murray family within it's ranks. The present Duke is  Commander in Chief and his son Bruce, Marquess of Tullibardine and grandson Michael, Earl of Strathtay and Strathardie are both serving recruits.

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 05, 2010, 09:55:39 PM
Guy Innes-Ker, 11th Duke of Roxburghe

Seat:   Floors Castle,Kelso, Roxburghshire

Lineage: The Dukedom was created in 1707

Miscellany:  May Goelet, one the many Dollar Princesses who married into the British aristocracy made a rare and wonderfully happy marriage with the 8th Duke of Roxburghe. Duchess May's millions rescued Floors from looming ruin and continue to ensure its prosperity to this day.


Alexander Montagu, 13th Duke of Manchester

Seat:  Formerly Kimbolton Castle, St Neots, Huntingdon and Tandragee Castle, Country Armagh. The present Duke resides in California!

Lineage:   The 4th Earl of Manchester received a Dukedom in 1719

Miscellany: The present Duke's father and great grand father both spent time in prison. The 9th Duke was the first and only one of his particular peer group to ever spend time behind bars at HMP Wormwood Scrubs in the 1930s and the 12th Duke worked in the laundry during his spell of 'porridge' in a penitentiary in Florida


Francis Egerton, 7th Duke of Sutherland

Seat: Mertoun House, St Boswells, Scottish Borders

Lineage: The Dukedom was created in 1833 for the husband of Elizabeth Sutherland Leveson Gower, 19th Countess of Sutherland.

Miscellany: The 1st Duke of Sutherland, a native of England spent decades clearing his wife's immense Highland estates in order to make more money for his coffers. Even today the 1st Duke of Sutherland is still passionately hated and reviled throughout Scotland and amongst the Scots around the world.


James Hamilton, 6th Duke of Abercorn

Seat: Baronscourt, Newtownstewart, Omagh, Co. Tyrone

Lineage: Queen Victoria made the 2nd Marquess and 10th Earl of Abercorn a Duke in 1868 in recognition of his service as Lord Lieutenant of Ireland

Miscellany: Alexandra Abercorn and her sister Natalia Westminster have brought a fair dose of Romanov blood into two of the realms surviving Dukedoms  


Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster

Seats : Eaton Hall, Cheshire., Abbeystead, Lancashire, Reay Forest, Sutherland and La Garganta, Castilla de Mancha in Spain

Lineage: The staggering Grosvenor fortune family rest primarily on the marriage of a Cheshire based Baronet to one Mary Davis who brought with her a dowry of marshy acres known as Ebury in Middlesex. It became a basic license to print money after the 2nd Earl Grosvenor who later became 1st Marquess of Westminster started dabbling in property development early 19th century style in Mayfair. The Marquess did take a huge risk with his inheritance, raising vast sums against his estates in order to start the venture. It would not be until the time of his grandson the 3rd Marquess that the money really started pouring in, as the 2nd Marquess had followed his father's entrepreneurial example and developed Belgravia! It was basically due to his immense wealth and his generosity with his lucre that the 3rd Marquess was made a Duke by Queen Victoria in 1874

Miscellany: The present Duke of Westminster is apparently loathed and despised by resentful Parisians. His entry into commercial property development in the French capital lead him into some vicious clashes with local French purveyors of flea market pitches in 2007.


James Carnegie, 3rd Duke of Fife

Seat: Elsick House, Kincardine

Lineage: Maternally impeccable! Descended not only from Edward VII legitimately but although from the wrong side of the covers, from William IV. Paternally fascinating too! The Dukedom was created in 1889 and again in 1900 when it was realized that Princess Louise would not be producing a male heir!

 Miscellany:  Every family has a bolter and the 1st Duke of Fife's family was no exception! His colourful and thrice married sister Lady Agnes Cooper must have raised a few eyebrows in royal circles! Though I dare say perhaps her brother's father in law may have looked with particular interest upon her exploits!!! Agnes produced the fascinating Alfred Duff Cooper, 1st Viscount Norwich and through her daughter Sybil, Agnes was the grandmother of the publisher Sir Rupert Hart Davis and great grandmother of noted historians Duff Hart Davis and Adam Hart Davis.






Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 06, 2010, 12:22:10 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Ducal_Coronet.svg/100px-Ducal_Coronet.svg.png)

I will not only crown your great overview with a ducal coronet, but also with some info on Their Graces' sporting leisure from a Norwegian perspective: While we haven't had any native dukes since the 14th century, we have since the 19th century had (and still have the occassional pleasure of) visiting British Dukes, among our lakselorder, or Salmon Lords, who when bored with the piscine pleasures of Scottish rivers, come to our wild mountain rivers in search of bigger fish. While the Dukes of Gordon, fishing in the Central Norwegian river Gaula near the coronation city of Trondheim didn't venture further north than a few degrees north of Shetland, the Dukes of Roxburghe patronize the river Alta in Norway's northernmost province Finnmark on truly Arctic latitudes, where they hobnob with fellow fishing fan King Harald V and his Sami subjects. That is further north than Arkhangelsk where the Gordon heir Lord Settrington went to fight the Reds, but thanks to the Gulf Stream not quite as cold. Of course His Grace comes to fish in summer, when the midnight sun allows for fishing around the clock!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 06, 2010, 01:27:22 AM
I had no idea that the present Duke of Roxburghe went fishing in Norway! Thank you for sharing that tit bit!

I have just found an old article in 'Country Life' which is basically really a property gazette for people with bags of money looking to buy palatial homes in the country! It also has a die hard country living section hence the title! Not exactly 'Horse and Hound' but nonetheless very country bumpkin-ish!

Here is an article that includes a sprinkling of Dukes and a Dowager Duchess and which exclusive clubs they belong to! All frightfully British!

http://www.countrylife.co.uk/countryside/article/279683/Clubs-you-cannot-join.html



Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 06, 2010, 08:38:19 AM
Here is an article that includes a sprinkling of Dukes and a Dowager Duchess and which exclusive clubs they belong to! All frightfully British!
http://www.countrylife.co.uk/countryside/article/279683/Clubs-you-cannot-join.html
How arch-British. I would be tempted to join the International Dendrology Society if they take a noble pro-deciduous stance against the ghastly conifers which have been spreading like Socialism during the last century!

Quote
Richard Montagu Douglas Scott, 10th Duke of Buccleuch and Queensberry
I was intrigued to learn that Buccleuch is pronounced /bəˈkluː/. Probably a very U/non-U shibboleth!

Speaking of which:
Quote from: The Times report of the multi-ducal luncheon
David Charles Robert Manners, the 11th Duke of Rutland
Seat: Belvoir Castle, Grantham, Leics/Lincs
[..]
Miscellany: Belvoir Castle was built by Robert de Todeni, standard bearer for William the Conqueror at the Battle of Hastings
I just had to look this up and see it confirmed as Robert de Tosny. Those Latinate forms from the medieval chronicles remind me too much of Italian ice cream sellers.
(Though if His Grace like many of his collegues has turned his estate into a theme park I guess he merely is a high-end ice cream seller! (**Langued gules in cheek**)

From ice cream to crowns (which BTW is an ice cream brand here in Norway):
Quote
John Spencer Churchill, 11th Duke of Marlborough
Seat: Blenheim Palace, Woodstock, Oxfordshire
Obviously there is a lot of very interesting stuff at this palatial ducal seat. One thing I was happy to see displayed there several years ago was the Duke and Duchesses's coronets. I thought it wonderful to behold actual examples of heraldic crowns. Apart from Marlborough, I only presume (from the ducal web presence) that the Duke of Argyll displays his coronet at Inveraray. Do you know of anyone else?

Though I guess looking at peers' coronets would be a bit more boring than watching royal regalia in the long run, as they all are alike. If I were a (loaded) duke I think my inbreeding-induced eccentricity would be to make myself a coronet that was a bit more elaborate (but of course within the regulations: eight strawberry leaves), but of real gold with jewels etc. And I would wear it a bit more often, not just sit around bareheaded hoping for a coronation to happen in my lifetime. Do you think Her Majesty would reprimand me for that? Do you know of any "mad dukes" guilty of said eccentricity?
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 06, 2010, 07:09:17 PM
The Devonshire coronets were an exhibit a few years ago! But due to the changes that the present Duke and Duchess are undertaking, they may have been moved

The Roxburghes have a special 'Robe Room' at Floors where you can seen their coronets and robes proper!

Various ceremonial robes including glorious tabards, mantles and whatnot were certainly displayed at Arundel and made a wonderful exhibit!

Ian 13th Duke of Bedford claimed that the family coronation robes and coronet were 'lost' after his father had lent them to 'another Duke'. The present Duke will probably have to get go to London for fittings if they were not replaced! In all likelihood incumbent Dukes and Duchesses could always hire the whole caboodle from Ede and Ravenscroft rather than fork out tens of thousand on a new set which will only ever be worn at a coronation!

In a rather hauntingly prescient move, the 11th and penultimate Duke of Leeds included his coronet in one of several auctions where he placed lots! The coronet fetched eight guineas and his robes a further forty! Jack Leeds was an intriguing man! He was one of those later babies. His parents the impossibly suave 'Dolly' 10th Duke and Duchess Katherine had been married for seventeen years and had four daughters the youngest of whom was nearly nine when the Duchess finally provided an heir to the Dukedom!

At the time of John's birth, the Dukedom appeared relatively secure! His father had two brothers, Lord Francis whose wife Blanche was still hoping to have children after only five years of marriage and Lord Albert, unmarried but very much alive as a prospective father of future Dukes. In addition there were three teenage cousins, D'Arcy, Sidney and Maurice Osborne, second cousins of Jack's father the 10th Duke. Thus the Dukedom appeared to be reasonable secure for the future. Nevertheless Jack Carmarthen as the future 11th Duke was known from birth grew up cherished, adored and cosseted by his mother in particular. She became somewhat detached from her husband and after her daughters had all 'come out' took to spending longer and longer periods abroad in Paris and at a villa she rented in Bordighera on the Italian Riviera. Duchess Katherine always took her son with her as often as school holidays permitted when she migrated to the continent and he appears to have grown into a young man of particularly discerning and worldly tastes unlike many others heirs to British Dukedoms of his generation.

Perhaps his childhood and youthful travels abroad planted the seeds of Jack's adult preference for a life spent predominantly on the continent! Later Dukes followed suit, but few save the 10th Duke of Manchester seem to have altogether severed their links with their native land so thoroughly. In 1948 Jack did buy Trafalgar House, the former home and estate of the Nelson family, but he never lived there and leased the house to his brother-in-law. Apparently Jack acquired the  Trafalgar estate in order to avoid the ever increasing worry over taxes, putting money into a property was quite a sensible option at the time when he was childless, but shortly after his daughter was born he sold the estate.

He had a sartorial elegance about him that was akin to that of his father the eponymous Edwardian Duke, 'Dolly' 10th Duke of Leeds. I always found it fascinating that Jack Leeds sold his coronet when he was still a young bachelor in his twenties! He certainly didn't have to sell it as his father had left an estate valued in the region of 700,000 pounds! Death duties would have been very heavy, but Jack sold more or less every last acres of the family holdings in North Yorkshire and Cornwall and spent most of his time living in an early form of tax exile, mostly in France and Jersey ! I often wonder when twenty years after selling his patrimony and his coronet and robes, how Jack Leeds must have felt when he was told he was to become a father for the first time? Pleased that he had got rid of the trappings of a ducal lifestyle that was no longer relevant? Or perhaps he may have felt a twinge of guilt in case he had robbed a possible male successor of some part of his rightful inheritance! It is irrelevant anyway as his only child was Lady Camilla Osborne.

By the time Jack became a father in 1950, the possible heirs to the Dukedom had dwindled significantly. In 1901 when he was born, there had been five other males in remainder. As it turned out, neither of Jack's uncles sired legitimate children. Lord Albert, one of those archetypically appalling spendthrift black sheep younger sons that all families produced, died unmarried aged forty eight just before the outbreak of the Great War and Lord Francis died without issue in 1924. Of Jack's three second cousins once removed, Maurice had been killed in action in 1915 unmarried. Thus when Jack Leeds' daughter was born in 1950 there were only two remaindermen left, Maurice's elder brothers, Sir D'Arcy Osborne and Sidney Osborne. Both were by then over sixty and confirmed bachelors. Sidney died in 1958. Leaving the impossibly urbane and fascinating Sir D'Arcy Osborne, former Minister Plenipotentiary to the Vatican between 1936 and 1947, and a full time resident in Rome as sole heir. Even at this time, now married for a third time, Jack Leeds and his twenty seven year old wife hoped for a child of their own, but to Duchess Caroline's great disappointment she never bore a child and so after a long and harrowing illness Jack Leeds died aged sixty three and was succeeded by his rather more famous kinsman, Sir D'Arcy Osborne.

Sir D'Arcy Osborne who briefly became 12th Duke of Leeds, was a great chum of the Queen Mother and visitor at Clarence House and at Castle of Mey as one of her guests whenever he returned to Britain. With his panache, wit and extraordinary experiences during the War when he helped hide thousands of allied personnel and Jews, he was one of the a select 'few' who were genuinely close to QEQM. I have some of his poetry which is rather lovely and his memoirs are extremely elegant and very evocative!    
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 06, 2010, 07:35:04 PM

Though I guess looking at peers' coronets would be a bit more boring than watching royal regalia in the long run, as they all are alike. If I were a (loaded) duke I think my inbreeding-induced eccentricity would be to make myself a coronet that was a bit more elaborate (but of course within the regulations: eight strawberry leaves), but of real gold with jewels etc. And I would wear it a bit more often, not just sit around bareheaded hoping for a coronation to happen in my lifetime. Do you think Her Majesty would reprimand me for that? Do you know of any "mad dukes" guilty of said eccentricity?

I have a confession!!!! A few years ago I discovered Baroness' coronet from 1902 in a dressing up box in an attic! Lord knows where it came from! I cleaned it up with some 'Silvo' and even thought about getting the cap replaced! It had long ago lost its storage case and was a bit jaded! Anyway, I used to wear it when I used to do my hoovering! It was impossibe to keep in place without pins!!! I would have loved to have had the robes then I really could have gone the whole hog and cooked dinner in my finery! Like Nanette Newman making cheese on toast in her emeralds!


Anyway, it would be hilarious to see a Duke in his coronet chomping on a cigar in his dressing gown and slippers wouldn't it! Or stalking the halls of his home as tourists file pasts mobile phones poised to capture his grace in his get up!

There is one rather famous instance of an 'eccentric' Duke, Obby, 12th Duke of St Albans and younger brother of the completely insane 11th Duke and elder of the pyromanic Lord William Beauclerk who tried to burn down Eton College! Obby wasn't really mad but he was obsessed with the madness that ran in his family and sometimes played on it out of sheer mischief!
   In 1953 he announced that he would only attend the coronation if he was permitted to play a role as Hereditary Grand Falconer of England! He demanded to be allowed to bring a falcon into the abbey with him! He was subsequently informed that a live specimen would not be permitted, but it was suggested that perhaps he could make do with a stuffed one if he insisted upon the matter! Obby did not attend the coronation!


 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 06, 2010, 07:45:23 PM
Since they are so rarely used, I think most the robes and coronets are hired from a shop in London. If they are no longer in the family.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 06, 2010, 08:00:43 PM
You are quite right Robert! You can hire the lot from Ede and Ravenscroft and Garrards! The cost of buying robes even second hand is staggering! The Marquess of Cambridge's robes and coronet were for sale a couple of years ago and were priced at just under 15,000 pounds! I suppose the Royal associations probably hiked up the price but even so!

I know a couple of peers who haven't a clue where the family robes and coronets went, but there are still plenty of others who have them packed away! It used to be a real obsession with peers as to the provenance of their robes! One Earl refused to get new robes in 1902 and when his wife objected and said he looked a 'fright' replied with smug pride that as the robes had been made for the coronation of George III it was hardly surprising they may have looked a little 'worn'! Another Earl had parliamentary peers robes that dated from the reign of Elizabeth I and made sure everyone knew it!

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 06, 2010, 09:13:46 PM
Who knows if there will even be   all this at the next coronation? Reform is in  deeply in the works. A lot of the  "poofery" is being eliminated.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 06, 2010, 10:05:43 PM
Ah yes, I recall a conversation about possible concepts for the next coronation and the way the whole conversation veered off from a polite debate about the role of the peerage in the proceedings to one dominated by the role of the Lords Spiritual! It all became a bit zealous and tedious as Religious fuled matters so often do! I never bothered to contribute after the whole thing became a duel between the die hard Anglican traditionalist brigade and the more open minded who tend to applaud the Prince of Wales' Defender of Faith stance and how it may be incorporated into a future coronation.

I personally do not care to go down that route here, as it is not applicable to the Lords Temporal of which the Dukes of the realm were but a tiny portion! As the present Duke of Devonshire has recently said 'Aristocracy is dead.' Therefore I doubt that the hereditary ranks have a justifiable place in proceedings or will even be invited to attend any future coronation unless they are active holders of one of the Great Offices, a member of the Queen's household, a member of the Privy Council or a member of the Lords through elevation to new peerages by recommendation from the Government and the leader of HM's opposition, which in some cases is already in effect.

By 'poofery' I assume you mean the dressing up aspect of robes and coronets? With the final abolition of the hereditary element of the Lords, I tend to think that coronets, ermine, miniver, crimson robes etc should be reserved exclusively for the use of the Royal Family as the last representatives of the Hereditary principle. The life peers should perhaps be given different and more modern outfits to don on such occasions as where there presence is required on state occasions. Perhaps a new design of simpler Parliamentarian robes.

Saying that, I do think that the Hereditary Officers, such as the Duke of Norfolk as Earl Marshal and the Marquess of Cholmondeley as Lord Great Chamberlain both of whom have significant roles to perform during state occasions including coronations should perhaps be exceptions to the rule! After all, they are and will remain in their positions and continue in their duties for the foreseeable future, primarily because of Hereditary right and tradition. Therefore, I think they alone should perhaps be permitted to keep their 'poofery' for just such occasions.
 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Victor on March 06, 2010, 10:09:43 PM
Robert-what a marvellously descriptive phrase you have coined!Another I have heard referring to cutting back on fuss and bother is 'No fur,no feathers'.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 06, 2010, 10:39:15 PM
I was most intrigued to learn that some hard up peers and peeresses could compromise in their choice of fur trim on their robes. If they did not wish to hire robes and wanted spanking new ones in 1953 they could have them made with either white rabbit or ermine trim! The choice was theirs, that a small matter of the price which was a difference of 300 guineas!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 06, 2010, 10:56:34 PM
How many ermines does it take to  trim those moth eaten robes?  No wonder they rent the things.
 In 1953, The UK was still under rationing,  I think.  Rabbit!  What sacrilege !!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 06, 2010, 11:05:07 PM
The meat from the rabbit could perhaps have been sold to make pie fillings! Rabbit did not officially come under farmed livestock meat distributed through rationing! Many people kept rabbits in the cities specifically to add meat to their diet! I don't think ermine is edible as it is a weasel and I have never heard of people eating weasel or stoat!

I haven't a clue how many ermine or rabbit would be required for the trimming of a peer or peeress' robes and coronet! But certainly less than those required for a Prince or Princess of the Blood!

Anyway I can't believe we are sitting here discussing robes and coronets and rationing! This is quite surreal!
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Kalafrana on March 07, 2010, 07:05:19 AM
Margot

I am intrigued to know how you came to be in a position to find a coronet in a cupboard!

I don't know about 'abroad', but there is a bit of a 'thing' in Britain about not having finery that looks new. So barristers go round in grubby-looking wigs and torn gowns, and the best way to acquire something is to inherit it. There is a standing joke that the thing to do with a new Barbour jacket (a waxed cotton garment very popular among rural members of the upper crust) is to drag it behind your Land Rover!

Ann
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 07, 2010, 07:48:15 AM
Oh Ann I remember that one about the Barbours! Same applies to Robes etc....'New money don't you know?' wink wink! I am English born and bred too!

The coronet and where it came from is a complete mystery! We certainly never played with it when we were little! Otherwise I am sure we would have remembered it as being a 'real crown' so to speak, rather than the common or garden cardboard or plastic ones we did use for dress up! I have been meaning to do more research into it as it is hallmarked so I guess it wouldn't be too difficult to research.

Goodness, we are still on about coronets! Perhaps I should start a little post about the Dukes of Somerset! Now they are an absolutely fascinating lot and full of the most extraordinary homogeny of amazing personalities! Actually they are my second favourite ducal dynasty after the Dukes of Leeds!


 


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Kalafrana on March 07, 2010, 08:37:46 AM
My Barbour hasn't been dragged behind a Land rover, but is about 15 years old and been allowed to age gently, so that I has a couple of holes on the outside and more in the lining.

Perhaps your coronet is like the WW1 bayonet that I found in my grandmother's coal shed!

Ann
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 07, 2010, 10:36:47 AM
 I do not think I have a Barbour.   Would have to ask my friend where I keep my winter clothes in a village. But, I do have a couple of Australian "Dryasa bones" which are  way too large for me. One I inherited, the other I bought as a gift, but it was never used so given back. It sounds about the same, except for the Land Rover part.
 Mentioning rabbits.  It is interesting...a couple of years ago I had a birthday party in a restaurant in London [ no  robes or coronets] and the special menu featured rabbit.   My partner & I did not eat it ourselves, but it was a hit with the guests. [it was not the only thing on the menu]  I had it when I was quite young, but my partner  used to be a magician and rabbits are rather special to him.
 But, The Dukes.... some of them were real reprobates, were they not? I have just started on a book by Brian Masters- The Dukes. Looks interesting. So far, Shaftsbury is  a bit of a puzzle. I do not even know who the current one is. [didn't the young heir die very soon after inheriting?]
 And, a friend of mine is involved with the Buccleuch family.
 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: RoyalWatcher on March 07, 2010, 12:13:50 PM
Going back to the coronation formal dress, I think it would be an interesting choice to go with sashes for both males and females instead of those robes. The sashes would be much more understated, but would allow the wearer the distinction of their position?!? As for the coronets, well I think perhaps they should be retired altogether.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 07, 2010, 12:40:11 PM
I like the idea of sashes.  But, as for the coronets,  are they not an integral part of the ceremony ?   The peers put them on only after the monarch is crowned so they do seem superfluous.
 I do not know of any other time they are actually used.
  Who knows what role they, the dukes, may play in the next coronation anyway?  They have been booted out of the Lords, after all.
 And for the robes... well I have a couple, costume, not original,  and they are cumbersome.  Especially if one does not wear them very often. And mine are fake fur!
  I sold my coronet  long ago but still have a tiara, also costume.  I guess these go next....
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Kalafrana on March 07, 2010, 12:47:03 PM
The Shaftesburys are Earls rather than Dukes. Apart from the 19th century social reformer (7th Earl, I think), they haven't done anything remarkable. However, in the last five years one has been murdered, and his immediate heir died suddenly and prematurely not long after. As far as I remember, the Earl who was murdered spent most of his time in the south of France, and had inherited his ancestor's desire to rescue the unfortunate. Unfortunately, this made him easy meat for dubious individuals, particularly female, who were only after his money. At a comparatively advanced age, he married one of these females, who murdered him along with her lover.

Ann
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: RoyalWatcher on March 07, 2010, 02:34:39 PM
  I sold my coronet  long ago but still have a tiara, also costume.  I guess these go next....

Yes let the coronets go away (they aren't flattering in the least and look very silly), but Robert, the tiaras should never ever go away!  =  )
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 07, 2010, 03:52:47 PM
Ann how wonderful about the bayonet! I suppose all sorts of possibilities about how it got there have evolved in your family! If it had been WWII  in date  suppose I suppose one idea is that it could have been thought that it was left there by a Waffen SS Paratrooper who may have been on clandestine operation to assassinate Chruchill a la Jack Hawkins!!!! As it was WWI in date it could have been left there by an equally clandestine agent who rowed across 'La Manche' a la John Buchan or maybe more feasibly it was just something some Tommy brought home as a souvenir of his hellish time in the trenches! History is wonderful isn't it?

Robert, the late Brian Masters' book about Dukes is the most comprehensive book available on the remaining dynasties plus the Portlands and Newcastles! The author was a real character and rather similar to James Less Milnes, in being accused of being 'a snob about snobbery.' But whereas Lees Milnes had a real flair, Masters just never quite managed to  acquire the veneer of insouciance required to be 'quite' comfortable in his role as aristo-worshipper! 'The Dukes' is nonetheless interesting but personally I prefer 'Amazing Grace - the Great days of Dukes by E S Turner which is a gem! I suppose my biggest gripe with the Masters book is that he clearly likes some families more than others and does nothing to hide the fact and he failed to produce anything new that wasn't a rehash of what hadn't been published before, except for a few charmingly gossipy vignettes about some modern Dukes and their families where I think he friendship with Lady Camilla Dempster did provide him with several rather fun 'dining table' tit bits which he did incorporate.

Talking of the Earls of Shaftsbury, Robert with your Hollywood connections you may be interested to learn that another n'er do well member of that family was the the heir of the 9th Earl and father of the unfortunate 10th Earl who was murdered. Anthony, Lord Ashley was a stage door Johnny and was the first husband of the eponymous gold digger of her day, Sylvia Hawkes aka Sylvia Ashley. She went on to marry Douglas Fairbanks Senior, Edward Stanley, 6th Baron Stanley of Alderley, Clark Gable and lastly Prince Dimitri Djordjadze! I wish someone would write a bio of Sylvia as she was fascinating!

And finally back to robes and coronets in modern times and possible future use! Both are based on the Robes of estate worn by the monarch, hereditary peers were referred to as 'trusty cousins' by the monarch which in itself is where there was a finite link between the principals of hereditary and blood which now appears redundant as all peers in the Lords will be for life only, thus the use of such symbolic robes and coronets seems very archaic and IMHO inappropriate. A particular set of robes are worn by new peers and peeresses when they they undertake their 'Introduction' into the House of Lords. Interestingly the use of the term 'trusty cousin' has been changed to 'trusty councillor' in the case of Privy Councillors (Martin the peer being introduced below is a Member) I have noticed that in other introductions 'cousin' has now been dropped completely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vglpk3Nuqlc&feature=related

Here is some footage and then an article about the Oath of Homage during a coronation during which coronets and the special coronation robes are actually worn (I love Larry Olivier's 'hammy' narration! It seems amazing that he pre-recorded this and that it was later added to the footage) :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBQ3E_Yss6E

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2194&dat=19530601&id=u9IwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oN0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=7218,195922

 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 07, 2010, 04:32:34 PM
Thank you both, Ann  & Margot for the  clarifications.  As long as I have been coming to the UK, I really do not know much about the peerage.  Just never interested me. Well, until recently. I knew nothing about Brian Masters until now.  It was my friend who got me interested in the non-royal dukes, with his connection. Roy Strong is a good resource on the coronation. It is far more flexible and adaptable than many people think.  Of course, most people have not seen one in over 60 years! I have only seen it on video. Should be interesting to see what they come up with  for the next one .
I sold my coronet to a theatre group, and lend them the robes anytime they can use them.  But they are so costly to clean, I wish they would just  buy the things! [they do a lot of G&S so they come in handy at times]
The only reason  I thought the Shaftsburys are dukes is because half the West End seems to be named after them. And, yes, Ann, that is exactly what I was thinking of, the murdering wife. And the heir who left his  perfectly happy life as a club manager in NYC only  to come back and die.  I think his younger brother has it now, by total surprise.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 07, 2010, 08:40:02 PM
Shaftesbury Avenue was thus named in commemoration of one of the greatest Philanthropists and advocates of social reform during the Victorian era, Anthony Ashley Cooper, 7th Earl of Shaftesbury! He really was a wonderful man! But the Ashley Cooper family did not in fact own any of the land in the area where present day Shaftesbury Avenue lies. I believe that the reason for the naming of the thoroughfare after the 7th Earl, was more to do with the fact that the project was a major step in slum clearance, which was one of the Earl's most passionate objectives.

Plenty of Dukes have owned great and small swathes of Central London! Other members of the peerage have also owned very lucrative tracts of land there too. The Westministers are of cause the most well known London landlords, and the Dukes of Bedford were landlords of Covent Garden and remain owners of swathes of Bloomsbury. The Graftons had a a more modest plot sandwiched between Bloomsbury (Bedford owned land) Regent's Park (Crown estate) and the Portland Estate. This area eventually became known as Fitzrovia which comes from the Grafton surname of Fitzroy! The Portlands enjoyed the income from Harley Street, Portland Place and a lovely chunk of Marylebone for nearly two centuries before it passed out of the family and into other aristocratic hands where it remains. Even the seemingly perpetually hard up Dukes of St Albans owned a small but eventually extremely valuable plot of piece of London acreage that is now known as Adelphi and which lies between the Strand and the banks of the Thames. Unfortunately for successive Dukes of St Albans, this property later passed out of the family through the female line and into the grateful ownership of the Drummond family of banking fame.

 Amongst the lesser aristocracy, the Marquesses of Salisbury had for a long time a nice little concern near Shaftesbury Avenue, Viscount Portman still owns a lovely slice of acreage nearby which an ancestor acquired during the reign of Henry VIII, the Howard de Walden family now own the Portland estate, and the Earl of Harrington and the Earl Cadogan are still jogging along collecting very respectable rent rolls in Kensington & Chelsea.

Ok there is just another tit bit! I hope it isn't too confusing as it all sounds a bit wordy to me!

 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Kalafrana on March 08, 2010, 04:57:26 AM
My grandmother only lived in that house for a short time, so I've no idea how the bayonet got there (it was a clergy house, in fact - my grandmother lived with her second son, who was a clergyman). Although the bayonet was of WWi pattern, it might well have been in use in WW2, as the Lee-Enfield rifle was standard British issue in both conflicts and there were plenty of WW1 vintage in use much later. But yes, you could make a nice story to explain what it was doing in the coal shed.

The Marquesses of Salisbury at one time owned a considerable swathe of land in what is now Liverpool. The land on which my paternal grandparents' house was built was sold off by them about 1880 (the house was built in 1882 and this was in the deeds). The Earls of Shrewsbury owned a lot of land on the other side of the Mersey. The land occupied by my parents' house belonged to them and various local roads have 'Shrewsbury' names.

Ann
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 08, 2010, 02:02:15 PM
 Margot & Ann-  you are both making this fascinating to me!  I am not bored  or confused at all.  I  live in London  twice a year,  and have  for a long time, but did not know this history. I knew the Westminsters  owned half of the West End- including the US embassy plot. But not much else.  I have a massive LONDON ENCYCLOPAEDIA which is  a reference, but keep forgetting to use it. I am familiar with the royal  history, but not the peers.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Margot on March 08, 2010, 02:46:12 PM
It is a bit of an eye opener to realize that many peers did have urban landholdings and that the Westminsters were only really noted because of the value and extent of their acres in central London. Furthermore some of these urban landlords actually did take a real interest in the development of such holdings. The Devonshire family are still remembered and commemorated today for their development and investment in Eastbourne on the Sussex coast and at Buxton on Derbyshire. Other peers also developed land and villages along the English channel coast including the Earls of Radnor at Folkestone and the Earls De la Warr at Bexhill. Incidentally the Earsl De la Warr had an ancestor the 3rd Baron De La Warr a Governor of Virginia who held land concessions in Virginia from James I and was the first peer to be laid to rest on what would later become American soil. The state of Delaware shares his name in commemoration of his colonial service! As a further titbit, Lord De La Warr was also an ancestor of of the fascinating Vita Sackville West.

Back in Blighty, the Earls of Shrewsbury held vast swathes of land and around in Sheffield in South Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire which later passed to the Dukes of Norfolk. Sheffield today can thank its principal landowner and 14th Duke of Norfolk for sanctioning and supporting the building of many of its impressive if rather stereotypical Victorian municipal buildings. The same situation occurred in Nottingham during the same period, although after the angry mob burnt down his hill top castle during the crisis over the passing of the Reform Act, the 4th Duke of Newcastle and his successors decided not to reoccupy the castle and gradually retreated from the city and back to focusing on their country holdings.

Others such as the present Duke of Somerset are still rather like landlords of old. The present Duke still owns acres in the picturesquely charming Devonshire town of Totnes and lives on the Berry Pomeroy estate which includes these Totnes acres and the ruins of a once magnificent castle rebuilt for Lord Protector Somerset. Others with similar urban although larger holdings include the Earl of Derby and the Duke of Westminster in Merseyside. The Marquesses of Bute used to literally own Cardiff and the Marquesses of Donegall were once in a similar position in Belfast. Eventually Belfast Castle and what was left of the estate passed out of the Chichester family and into the hands of the Earls of Shaftesbury!






Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Kalafrana on March 09, 2010, 03:22:29 AM
The Salisbury lands in Liverpool that were sold off about 1880 were still open country then. Our family house was originally right on the edge of the city. My eldest great-aunt, born in 1879 and whom I can just remember meeting, walked to school across fields and the milk came from a farm at the end of the road.

Ann
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Lucien on June 07, 2010, 02:49:59 AM
His Grace the Duke of Hamilton passed away - aged 71 - last saturday Buckingham Palace announced.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/10251544.stm
 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Constantinople on June 07, 2010, 03:40:22 AM
noone outranks a British Duke? well not in the case where he operates a tearoom or is captain of the elephant polo team.
An Aristocrat without land is a sad and sorrow remnant of his heriditary self.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Lucien on April 26, 2011, 10:58:10 PM
Her Grace the Duchess of Buccleuch & Queensbury,widow of the 9th Duke,passed away on april 18th.

Former model Jane McNeill married the 9th Duke of Buccleuch in 1953,he passed away in 2007.
The funeral for Her Grace will be held at Melrose,Scotland today april 27th.

The obituary:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/jane-duchess-of-buccleuch-model-turned-politicianrsquos-wife-whose-efforts-helped-pave-the-way-for-disabled-mps-2274654.html

Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: RoyalWatcher on August 28, 2011, 08:16:44 PM
I am lighting a pyre and calling out for the expert assistance of those on this board.

During the course of Zara Phillips wedding, a poster on a Royal blog started referring to the Duke of Cambridge using his Scottish subsidiary title, the Earl of Strathearn. From my understanding, that is not correct and I even said as much. The defense of the poster was that the BBC was referring to Prince William as such. I was shocked. There hasn't been any precedence for this in any of my many readings on the British Royal Family.

It seems ridiculous reducing a Duke of the Realm (a Royal Duke no less) to a lesser status and title...The Duke of York reduced to The Earl of Inverness and The Earl of Wessex reduced to his son's given title the Viscount Severn. It does not make sense whatsoever.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the subsidiary titles like those of Prince William's are for the use of his son (Earl of Strathearn) and his son's son (Baron Carrickfergus) if Prince William is still alive and has not ascended to the throne.

From my understanding, the only member of the Royal Family whose title does changes while in Scotland is The Prince of Wales, who becomes The Duke of Rothesay.

I call upon you, my trusty forum members and friends, to come to my aid and help with my understanding of the use of peerage titles.  

The pyre is lit and the flames are dancing very high!


Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: CHRISinUSA on August 29, 2011, 07:53:11 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14325778 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-14325778)

I just popped over on the BBC website and did a search of the title Earl of Strathearn.  Just three articles popped up - the link above is the only one related to Zara's wedding in which the earldom was mentioned - and as you'll see, there was one little sentence that said William's Scottish title is Earl of Strathearn.   Since I hardly think that constitutes the BBC "referring to William" by this title, I think the poster you mentioned must be employing wishful thinking rather than fact.

As you say, it is appropriate to address Prince Charles as Duke of Rothesay in Scotland, but that is a unique case because Prince of Wales is the highest title reserved to the heir to the throne of England, while Duke of Rothesay is the highest title reserved to the heir to the throne of Scotland.  But it is not correct to address another royal duke by one of his subsidiary titles when he is in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland (except perhaps if it followed his ducal title - such as "HRH The Duke of York, Earl of Iverness"). 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: RoyalWatcher on August 29, 2011, 04:01:23 PM
Hi CHRISinUSA, thank you for your reply. I thought as much, but needed to verify to be quite sure that that poster was wrong. In that same BBC article you provided a link for, there is a call-out, which states:

Scottish Royal titles
    * Prince William and Catherine are known as the Earl and Countess of Strathearn;
    * Prince Charles uses the title the Duke of Rothesay while in Scotland. He also has the titles Earl of Carrick and Baron Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland;
    * Camilla is known as the Duchess of Rothesay;
    * Prince Andrew has the title Earl of Inverness.

I can see where that poster would be completely mislead. The "Scottish Royal titles" heading and the accompanying bulleted text: "Prince William and Catherine are known as the Earl and Countess of Strathearn." No they are not. They are known as The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge with the Earldom of Strathearn being a subsidiary title and one in which they personally would never use.

Also, look at how they made reference to Prince Andrew's title: "Prince Andrew has the title Earl of Inverness." That's the language the BBC should have used for Prince William's Scottish title, but they didn't. Strange.

I'm actually quite surprised that the venerable BBC would allow a mistake like this to go through. Well, I view it as a mistake and very misleading. Where are the editors for online content these days? It is getting worse and worse in my opinion.
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: CHRISinUSA on August 30, 2011, 07:45:55 AM
After your post I re-read the article and yes, now I can see how someone could easily misinterpret what was said.  And yes, the BBC should be spanked thoroughly for their sloppy choice of words.  True news journalism seems to be eroding steadily these days.  I've stopped counting how many times I've heard or read something on CNN that stops me in my tracks, wondering if I've accidentally stumbled into onto a tabloid website.

But I digress. 
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Lucien on September 21, 2012, 10:15:21 PM

The Dowager Duchess of Northumberland died peacefully - aged 90 - at the Percy Family Albury estate,Alnwick Castle.

Born Lady Elisabeth Montague Douglas Scott she was the daughter of the 8th Duke of Buccleuch
and married Hugh Percy,the 10th Duke of Northumberland

Alnwick Castle might be known to many as Hogwarts in the Harry Potter movies..
Title: Re: Dukedoms of the realms of England, Scotland, GB, Ireland and the UK.
Post by: Kalafrana on September 22, 2012, 06:38:58 AM
I once met the Dowager Duchess and the late Duke (name-dropping here!) The Duke was honorary Colonel of the Territorial unit I was in and when invited to a mess dinner explained that his doctor had forbidden him to go out in the evening, so held a sherry party in his drawing room instead. He and the Duchess were both dear old things, but their youngest son, James, seemed a bit vague. He was about to go to a university interview, so I asked him what subject he was planning to read, whereupon he said he couldn't remember!

Ann