Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Tatiana Nicholaievna => Topic started by: Katharina on February 05, 2004, 05:35:03 AM

Title: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortipo
Post by: Katharina on February 05, 2004, 05:35:03 AM
Does anyone know (without doubt) the correct spelling?

There are dozens of pages claiming that Tatianas french bulldog was called <Ortino>, first of all www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/Ortino.html and many, many others.

Yet in a few primary sources you can find <Ortipo>:
www.alexanderpalace.org/letters/september15.html
www.alexanderpalace.org/letterstsaritsa/april15.html
www.alexanderpalace.org/letterstsaritsa/march15.html
www.alexanderpalace.org/letterstsaritsa/may15.html
www.alexanderpalace.org/letterstsaritsa/december15.html
www.alexanderpalace.org/russiancourt/XXI.html

Please consider the fact that the daughters were making a lot of spelling mistakes whereas Alexandra always thought and wrote in english.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Forum Admin on February 05, 2004, 09:52:40 AM
Bob says that this question has come up before.  The definitive answer from his research is the dog's name was <Ortino>.

The mistake seems to have come up from some Russian translations, where the character in russian cursive for "p" is the same as the western cursive for "n".
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: BobAtchison on February 08, 2004, 07:58:35 PM
In Alexandra's letters and diaries she writes in English, however she mixes in Russian names and other distinctive names of things in Russian Cyrillic.  She often writes Ortino in Russian and I think this is where the confusion happens. The 1920's 'translations' of the letters often say ORTIPO.  
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Greg_King on February 14, 2004, 06:18:57 PM
Bob-

Here's a question I haven't yet figured out:

Ortino was given to Tatiana in 1914 by Dimitri Malama.  She wrote to her mother: “Forgive me about the little dog.  To say the truth, when he asked should I like to have it if he gave it me, I at once said yes.  You remember I always wanted to have one, and only afterwards when we came home I thought that suddenly you might not like me having one."(TN to AF 30 September 1914)

But Ortino seems to have lived for less than a year; Alexandra noted his death in a cable to Nicholas on 5 September 1915.(AF to N, 5 September 1915)  When Dimitri Malama learnt of this, he apparently arranged for another English Bulldog to be delivered to Tatiana; she promptly named him Ortino as well.  I've never seen any reference to two different dogs given the same name, but if you look at the family’s correspondence it seems that this is exactly what happened.  See AF to N, 28 November, 1915; and AF to N, 17 March 1916.

Do you know any more about this?  It's odd-like Lisa Simpson and "Snowball" and "Snowball II."

Greg King
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Katharina on February 24, 2004, 05:25:07 AM
At the moment I enjoy reading the german edition of Greg King's "Alexandra - The Last Empress".
One detail I came across is the question if Ortino followed the Tsar's family to Ekaterinburg.

Pierre Gilliard:
"...Tatiana Nicolaievna came last, carrying her little dog and struggling to drag a heavy brown valise. It was raining and I saw her feet sink into the mud at every step..."

Sophie Buxhoeveden:
"...when Nagorny wanted to help the Grand Duchess Tatiana, who held a dog under one arm and dragged a heavy black valise... he was rudely pushed away."

In my imagination both statements refer to little Jimmy, an idea than can be also found in Greg King's book.

What we know ist that ...
... Joy, Ortino and Jimmy went to Tobolsk.
... Jimmy was executed together with the imperial family.
... Joy survived.

I have to admit that Pierre Gilliard's comment ("her little dog") is rather clear. But isn't it possible that Ortino was not living any more? Maybe Anastasia entrusted her sister with Jimmy.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Nick Nicholson on February 24, 2004, 08:43:21 AM
I am pretty certain that the citations Katharina mentions refer to Ortino, and not to Jimmy or Joy.  Jimmy and Joy were English Springer Spaniels, who are very hearty and medium-sized dogs of about 45-50 pounds when full grown. Ortino was a French Bulldog, and both males and females optimally weigh between 20-28 pounds.  

I think that it is far more likely that Tatiana Nikolaevna was holding Ortino under her arm -- I would have a very hard time indeed holding a struggling 50 pound  Springer Spaniel under my arm while dragging a valise through the mud.  A 20-lb lap dog would be hard enough!

Nick
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Penny_Wilson on February 24, 2004, 04:47:29 PM
Greg and I tried to sort out these doggy logistics in The Fate of the Romanovs, and here's what we concluded:

Jemmy, Joy and Ortino departed Tsarskoye Selo with the family, and lived with them through the days in Tobolsk.  After N, A and M left for Ekaterinburg, the three dogs remained with the rest of the children, and traveled to E'burg on board the Rus and by train with them.  The family, including the three dogs, were reunited in the Ipatiev House.  During captivity there, the dogs were fed on the upper balcony, just outside the dining room and what became Demidova's bedroom.  After the murders and during the White investigations, the bones found on this balcony were itemized as remains of the dogs' last dinner in the house.

Various guards also recount stories of the girls, especially Anastasia, teaching the dogs tricks and making them perform in the garden.

After the murders, we know that Joy was taken from the Ipatiev House to Michael Letemin's house, where he was discovered in the garden by the Whites.  Jemmy was obviously taken somewhere by someone most likely connected to the Bolsheviks, for the little dog was still available to them when they were looking for physical evidence with which to "salt" the mine, as suggested by Summers and Mangold.

Ortino's fate, we believe, is most likely found in Michael Kudrin's testimony of December 1963, when he recalled that as the bodies were being moved from the basement of the house into the truck, a little dog appeared from upstairs, and rushed into the courtyard, obviously much distressed and upset and probably looking for his people.  Kudrin is silent on whether or not the dog was behaving like a guard dog, but it would not have been out of the ordinary for a Frenchie -- a famously protective breed -- to become territorial and vicious in defense of his family, the moreso because their scents were at that time overlayed with the smell of gunsmoke and blood.  In any case, a soldier took up his bayonet and stabbed the dog to death, throwing his body into the truck with the Romanovs.  "A dog's death to dogs," Kudrin remembered Goloshchokin commenting as they stood watching.

We think that perhaps some of the "mammal bones" found at the Four Brothers were those of Ortino.

What a brave little guy he was... =)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Forum Admin on February 24, 2004, 05:37:57 PM
Penny,
Our copy of Kudrin's testimony from 1963 says only:

He bent over the tsar.
"The end of the Romanov Dynasty, right?! Yes...
The Red Guard brought out Anastasia's lap dog on a bayonet. When we passed the door to the upstairs, we heard a long pitous wail in the leaves.  It was the last salute to the Emperor of all Russia.  The dog's corpse was thrown beside the tsar.
"Dogs die a dog's death," said Goloshchyokin contemptuously."
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Greg_King on February 25, 2004, 12:31:02 AM
Quote
Penny,
Our copy of Kudrin's testimony from 1963 says only:

He bent over the tsar.
"The end of the Romanov Dynasty, right?! Yes...
The Red Guard brought out Anastasia's lap dog on a bayonet. When we passed the door to the upstairs, we heard a long pitous wail in the leaves.  It was the last salute to the Emperor of all Russia.  The dog's corpse was thrown beside the tsar.
"Dogs die a dog's death," said Goloshchyokin contemptuously."


The difficulty here is one we had to wrestle with-and we may be wrong-but we believe Kudrin is mistaken in identifying the dog thus killed as Jemmy, i.e., Anastasia's dog (not that his ownership is any clearer since Anna Vyrubova says she gave the dog to the girls in general, not to Anastasia).  This is from memory, but if I recall correctly Kudrin had previously never been in the Ipatiev House-so first one must ask how he knew this was Anastasia's dog?

More generally, the problem is that if we're talking about Jemmy-and if one assumes for the sake of argument that he was thus killed and thrown into the Ganina Mine where he was later found-it doesn't fit with the known facts.  I know nothing of veterinary medicine or forensics, but Summers and Mangold did consult experts for "The File on the Tsar," and they present a pretty strong case that Jemmy, found in the mine in June, 1919, hadn't been there very long, and hadn't been dead very long.  While a lot of their other assertions are no longer valid, this is one of their strongest points, indicating I think that the White investigators probably planted Jemmy's body there to be found.

Based on this-and in reading through their analysis it isn't a huge leap of faith-Jemmy would have had, of necessity, to have survived into spring of 1919.  Since Joy was found in the possession of Michael Letemin, that leaves only one dog-Ortino-that could possibly have been killed on the night of the murders as Kudrin says.  So it seemed reasonable, as someone unfamiliar with the family and their pets, that he simply misidentified the dog killed that night.

This may not be correct, but it accounts for what Summers and Mangold uncovered about Jemmy's condition when retrieved from the shaft-a condition that indicated he had not been dead for long (and perhaps there were suspicions about this, hence the absurd stories that the Bolsheviks built a false floor to conceal the dog, or that Jemmy was frozen in ice-neither of which was true), and also for Kudrin's account of a dog having been killed that night.

As with all things, it is an issue that has to be looked at and examined carefully, especially given the above, and the fact that Kudrin's memoirs contain a number of errors that undermine their veracity.  He was certainly there, but I wouldn't take his identification of the dog as particularly definitive given what we know now about Jemmy's condition.

Greg King
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Alice on February 25, 2004, 03:21:47 AM
Pardon my ignorance in relation to this matter, but why would the White Army investigator's "plant" the dog's body in the mine? What would this achieve?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Greg_King on February 25, 2004, 06:46:48 AM
Quote
Pardon my ignorance in relation to this matter, but why would the White Army investigator's "plant" the dog's body in the mine? What would this achieve?


They found Jemmy's corpse just a week or two before the Whites had to flee Ekaterinburg-thus calling a halt to Sokolov's investigation on the scene-and the fact that the Reds were drawing nearer was well known.  For ten months, one set of investigators after another had pumped out the mines, searched the entire area looking for the missing bodies-to no avail.  Sokolov himself was wandering round the area, openly wondering what had happened to the bodies.  Many of the White Army officials (which was the branch in charge of the Romanov investigation) were notoriously corrupt and closed-minded as to what the eventual evidence should suggest-that the family had been killed and their corpses destroyed at the mine.  Other lines of inquiry-like those into the stories of "eyewitnesses" who saw this or that Grand Duchess in Perm, or testified that the Imperial Family was removed from Ekaterinburg by train-were abruptly ordered cut off.

With no bodies, and time quickly running out, some official in the White Army thus may have planted Jemmy's body at the mine-to be found as some sort of proof that here, too, the family had been consigned and destroyed.  In his book, Sokolov places great importance on exactly what the discovery of Jemmy meant to his case, writing that "the mine gave up the secret of the Ipatiev House."  It was the one corpse he had, and the one corpse that tied the fate of the Imperial Family to the bloodstained cellar in the Ipatiev House (not counting the severed finger, pieces of skin, etc.)  I don't think Sokolov had any idea that Jemmy may (and I emphasize that word because none of us will ever know for sure) have been planted to bolster his case, but the evidence presented as to Jemmy's condition when recovered by Summers and Mangold, as I said above, seems to me the one good solid piece of something fishy having gone on that they uncovered-the rest of their arguments don't hold water now.  The argument became: the Bolsheviks pitched in the body of the Imperial pet to the mine, and here were found charred and burnt Imperial items, hence the dog must have died at the same time as its owners, and they must have been disposed of here.  That seems to have been how Jemmy's discovery was viewed and used to bolster Sokolov's case.

Again-it comes back to the question of Jemmy's condition, and the experts they consulted suggested he had been dead for only a matter of weeks-not months.  If that's true, and Joy was found in August of 1918-that only leaves Ortino as the dog that Kudrin says was killed on the night of the murders.  Maybe this isn't correct, but we didn't see any other scenario that accorded with all of the evidence.

Greg King
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Nick_Nicholson on February 25, 2004, 12:55:40 PM
Dear Penny and Greg,

Reading your research, I would agree that the bayonetted and tossed dog was more likely Ortino than the other dogs.  Back to my earlier post, Spaniels are large, and it would be easier to bayonet and toss a Fr. Bulldog. (Ugh, how morbid.)

Nick
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Geoffrey Moses-Moustafin on February 25, 2004, 09:35:53 PM
Dear Nick,

If you look closely at pictures of the Imperial Family with Jemmy and there are plenty (and indeed, even pictures of the dogs corpse), you will see that jemmy was a King Charles spaniel. This is a very small breed 10-15lbs top.


Thanks,

Geoff
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Nick_Nicholson on February 26, 2004, 08:31:23 AM
Dear Geoff,

Actually, if you look closely at the pictures (particularly the portrait of Joy, frequently reproduced cf "The Romanovs" by Bokhanov and Ustimenko, p. 312), both Joy and Jemmy were Standard English Spaniels, though it is possible that they were smaller ones.

King Charles spaniels have very different faces, being slightly more puglike, while Jemmy and Joy both had the long noses associated with the standard breed.

Thanks,

Nick
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Nick_Nicholson on February 26, 2004, 09:01:47 AM
Dear Geoff et al.

I have obviously lost my mind.  I have been poring over photographs, and have obviously made a mistake.

OK.  Joy was a standard Spaniel.

Ortino was a french bulldog.

Jemmy was either a King Charles Spaniel, or a Pekinese.

In Oustimenko, he asserts that four dogs went with the family (which we know is an error) "Joy the Spaniel, Jemmy the lap dog, Ortino the Pekinese, and a Bulldog"

Obviously incorrect -- I realized that I have been looking at pictures of Joy incorrectly identified as Jemmy. (hence my previous post.   Can we settle this with citations?

Thanks!

Nick
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Forum Admin on February 28, 2004, 05:30:21 PM
In an attempt to help clear up this bit of confusion, we posted a new "Imperial Pets" webpage on the site, with pictures. We hope you enjoy it.

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/imperialpets.html
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Louise on February 28, 2004, 07:25:59 PM
Those pictures are a wonderful addition.  
Seeing the Tsar and children with their pets gives us  a chance to glimpse at the warm family life they had.
Thank you.
Louise
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Forum Admin on March 11, 2004, 09:31:57 AM
A very kind reader of the Alexander Palace site, Francesca Belanger,  contacted us about the caption of the photo of the "second" Jemmy in the photo showing the dog in Anastasia's lap, the dog she took with her to Siberia. Our identification of that dog as a "Japanese Spaniel" may be incorrect.

We took that description from Sidney Gibbs' own testimony to Sokolov about that dog:"Anastasia had a small dog, I only know that it was a Japanese breed.  It was very small with long fur, reddish-brown...His characteristic traits were very large round eyes, his teeth uncovered, a long tongue which hung out of his mouth, I don't know which side.  He was called Jemmy.  The dogs of this breed were miniscule and were often carried in the arms.  He belonged to Anastasia, but everyone loved him, the Empress in particular..... Gibbs identified the corpse found as Jemmy without question. We used this as the basis for our attribution as a "Japanese Spaniel" belonging to Anastasia.

SO, Francesca is a dog fancier, who said that while the first Jemmy, seen in Vyroubova's photos on board the Standardt was definately a Japanese Spaniel, properly called a "Japanese Chin", the second Jemmy, in Siberia, did not resemble the breed, but rather looked like an English Toy Spaniel. We sent her close ups of the dog from that photo, and Francesca responded to us recently:
"I heard back from my friend Michele Blake, who breeds Japanese Chin, and she thinks Jemmy was an English Toy Spaniel, too, based on the picture. I did some research in Hutchinson's Dog Encyclopedia, published in the 30's, and saw photos of ETS's that look a lot like the little dog Anastasia is holding. In addition to Jemmy's solid-color head, there is also the issue of the ear-set. The Chin's ears sit higher on the head, while the ETS's head is very domed and the ears appear to join onto the head at a lower point than they do on a Chin. The English Toy Spaniels of today look different from some of the more delicate type I saw in Hutchinson's"

Nick and Geoffrey are both correct! The English Toy Spaniel is today properly called the "King Charles Spaniel"!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: AGRBear on July 03, 2004, 03:57:58 PM
If the Bulldog or Spaniel wasn't killed until shortly [about two week] before  25 June 1919, then where had he been for almost a year?  And, who had been caring for him?  I doubt this pampered dog would have survived for a year in the forrest.  I, also,  doubt this kind of dog would have gone unnoticed by people in / near Ekaterinburg.  

Sokolov's failures as a detective of eleven murdered people continues to make me feel uneasy about everything in which he had been a part.

Also, I'm grateful when many of you direct us to those links.  I'm not a web serfer so I wouldn't find them on my own.

AGRBear


P.S.  I found a photo of the corpse of the dog in FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold.  Ill. 40 by p. 145.  Looks like a Spaniel and not a bulldog, to me.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: DOMOVOII on July 04, 2004, 11:30:26 AM
Were "Frenchies" something of a fashion in Petersburg society? Tatiana's Aunt Olga A, had one called Bobtail, and there is a portait of Pr F F Youssoupov by Serov with his French Bulldog on his knee.

I think they are adorable!  
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: AGRBear on July 04, 2004, 11:55:23 AM
Joy, the Springer Spaniel, was larger than the other two dogs [bull dog and Charles].  And, it should be noted,  in Europe the standard Springer is smaller than ours here in the US.  We had two Springers.  And,  when we went to England,  we noticed the differences in the size.   Shorter legs .... but pound wise maybe ten pounds difference making them about 30 pounds....  They are still popular among the county gentry.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Janet_W. on July 04, 2004, 11:55:31 AM
And Felix obviously loved that dog; he speaks of him in his autobiography.

I believe this has been asked already, but I'll mention it again . . . any thoughts on where the name "Ortino" came from?

It does appear that French Bulldogs were quite the fashion, although it might be noted that Nicholas loved Border Collies and had an entire kennel of that breed; I believe his favorite was a collie called Iman.

It was interesting, by the way, to go back into this particular forum and read Tatiana's apologetic "fait accompli" note to her mother about accepting the gift of Ortino. Some things never change!  :D
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sunny on July 04, 2004, 03:39:49 PM
Wasn't Joy taken to England, and later buried in Windsor Park?

Sunny
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: NAAOTMA on July 08, 2004, 08:47:50 AM
Cannot recall exactly which books it is mentioned in, but yes, Joy was rescued by an English officer and lived out his days near Windsor with that officer. I too would like to know if his burial site is known, and if it can be visited.  
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2004, 04:03:00 PM
I just happen to read this fact in the File On The Tsar by Summers and Mangold p. 164 when looking for data on Jemmy.  

He was taken back to England ...  [Note on 10 July 04: Should have written that they also talked about Joy and that it was Joy who was taken back to England.]

Maybe, someone else out there knows the answer as to his buriel and the name of the officer.

I also remember:  Wasn't the dog mention in one of those books by Danielle Steel  [not sure the spelling] which I think was made into a tv movie...

AGRBear
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Dashkova on July 09, 2004, 04:22:18 PM
Actually, it was the dog named "Joy" who was taken back to England, and spent the rest of his life there.

The Danielle Steele book is called "Zoya." I only read it once (not my kind of fiction, so I didn't pay a whole lot of attention, but I was curious because of the subject), and can't remember if anything was mentioned about imperial pets.

Jemmy was the dog found in the mine shaft, and yes, it was Summers and Mangold who discovered that the dog most likely did not arrive there until many months after the murders.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2004, 11:44:02 AM
Quote


After the murders, we know that Joy was taken from the Ipatiev House to Michael Letemin's house, where he was discovered in the garden by the Whites.  Jemmy was obviously taken somewhere by someone most likely connected to the Bolsheviks, for the little dog was still available to them when they were looking for physical evidence with which to "salt" the mine, as suggested by Summers and Mangold.

Ortino's fate, we believe, is most likely found in Michael Kudrin's testimony of December 1963, when he recalled that as the bodies were being moved from the basement of the house into the truck, a little dog appeared from upstairs, and rushed into the courtyard, obviously much distressed and upset and probably looking for his people.  Kudrin is silent on whether or not the dog was behaving like a guard dog, but it would not have been out of the ordinary for a Frenchie -- a famously protective breed -- to become territorial and vicious in defense of his family, the moreso because their scents were at that time overlayed with the smell of gunsmoke and blood.  In any case, a soldier took up his bayonet and stabbed the dog to death, throwing his body into the truck with the Romanovs.  "A dog's death to dogs," Kudrin remembered Goloshchokin commenting as they stood watching.

We think that perhaps some of the "mammal bones" found at the Four Br
It was the bull dog Ortino which was killed by Kudrin / Michael Medvedev, who stated this in his 1963 testimony.others were those of Ortino.

What a brave little guy he was... =)


If you are looking in your book of Fate of the Romanovs it is found on p. 312.

I can just imagine the bull dog going crazy in a time like this.  And his barking would have sparked agitation then anger in Michael Medvedev.

Or,  was Michael Medvedev referring to the dog found by Sokolov and just adding this to his story which he hoped would make his story more believeable.  If that was the case,  then he was lying.  Then were did the bull dog go?  And with whom?  Could the bones, which you think may be the bull dog's,  be exaimined and determined if they are...?  Or atleast know if they are dog bones?  I assume someone has and has made some kind of report.

Did any of the other guards who were there   talked about the dog being killed that night?

AGRBear



Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 13, 2004, 11:59:55 AM
Well, there's no real reason for Medvedev-Kudrin to lie about a dog's death -- and his testimony fits reasonably well with what we know about the Imperial pets:  Three dogs went into the house, one -- Joy -- was taken from Russia and lived out his life in Windsor; the second -- Jemmy -- was found fairly freshly dead over a year later, so obviously he was taken from the house by someone prior to the Bosheviks turning it back over to Nicholas Ipatiev -- we will probably never know by whom or why he was taken, but clearly it was possible to walk out of the house with a dog, because Michael Letemin did it with Joy; Ortino's fate has been unknown to this point.  But Kudrin's statement ties up that loose end -- a dog, acting in character for a bulldog, attacks those who have attacked his family, and is also killed by them.

The further testimony -- that his body was also thrown into the truck -- may also help explain the "small mammal bones" found at the Four Brothers.

I don't there's anything sinister or suspicious in Kudrin's story -- but I do think that if he was referring specifically to Jemmy, he would have had to have been more forthcoming with a description of the dead dog.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2004, 12:43:11 PM
Quote
Well, there's no real reason for Medvedev-Kudrin to lie about a dog's death -- and his testimony fits reasonably well with what we know about the Imperial pets...


There is a reason to lie if something else occured in the Ipatiev House the night of 16 / 17 July 1918.

Between 1963 and 1964, how many of these guards found it "suddenly" necessary to write or voice about what happen that night?  Were other facts than the death of the dog added?   And, do these stories draw closer to being the same then back in the 1920s?

Out of everything I've read,  I don't recall Kudrin/ Medvedev story or any other guard  talk about the dog ever being mentioned until 1963 as you've told us it was voiced.  

Maybe,  the French bulldog was killed and when Sokolov tried to find it, he couldn't because it's body was to decomposed and that's why Jemmy fell victim and was planted one or two weeks before he was officially documented in Sokolov's records.

Which leads to why would Sokolov need to prove a dog of one of the children was indeed  dead?  Moscow had already issued statements that Nicholas II was dead.  So,  what purpose was one dead dog or two...?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 13, 2004, 01:48:02 PM
Quote

There is a reason to lie if something else occured in the Ipatiev House the night of 16 / 17 July 1918.


There is not one piece of concrete -- or even semi-concrete -- evidence that leads one to believe that the family walked away from the house alive on the night of 16/17 July.  On the contrary, there are dozens of pieces of evidence, in the form of testimony from Bolsheviks, guards, Koptiyaki peasants, Ekaterinburg and Verkh-Isetsk townspeople, Serbian nationals, Western European prisoners of war, and even White Officers in hiding that point towards murder happening that night.

The only hard evidence we have that any members of the family might have survived are the two missing bodies.  So at most, two people (and I believe that the missing are Anastasia and Alexei) survived that night.  For me, the possible survival of these two young people is the only point of serious mystery surrounding the fate of the Romanovs.

There is quite simply not a red under every bed... :-*

Quote
Between 1963 and 1964, how many of these guards found it "suddenly" necessary to write or voice about what happen that night?  Were other facts than the death of the dog added?   And, do these stories draw closer to being the same then back in the 1920s?


As far as I recall, only Isai Rodzinsky, Gregory Nikulin and Michael Medvedev-Kudrin gave interviews in 63/64, and they appear to have been given in order to assist Kudrin's son, Michael Mikhailovich, in assembling a radio show on the subject, perhaps for the approaching 50th Anniversary.  Each of them gave somewhat problematic testimony, given their actual participation levels in the events of 16-19 July 1918, with Nikulin's probably falling closest to Yurovsky's account, and Kudrin's mainly being concerned with hammering home the point that he counted ALL ELEVEN BODIES several times.  We cover the various discrepancies and problems with the testimony in our chapters "The Four Brothers" and "Aftermath."

Quote
Out of everything I've read,  I don't recall Kudrin/ Medvedev story or any other guard  talk about the dog ever being mentioned until 1963 as you've told us it was voiced.  


Well, you might not have, because of all the people standing in the courtyard at that time -- Goloshchokin, Kudrin and an unknown number of assassins and/or guards from the Popov House -- no-one other than Kudrin
has left testimony.  He is, so far, the only recorded eyewitness of this scene.

Quote
Maybe,  the French bulldog was killed and when Sokolov tried to find it, he couldn't because it's body was to decomposed and that's why Jemmy fell victim and was planted one or two weeks before he was officially documented in Sokolov's records.

Which leads to why would Sokolov need to prove a dog of one of the children was indeed  dead?  Moscow had already issued statements that Nicholas II was dead.  So,  what purpose was one dead dog or two...?


I don't think that Sokolov had to provide a dog's body to prove anything.  

I think planting the dead dog in the mineshaft drew attention away from the actual gravesite, where identifiable remains might well have been recovered at that time -- so I think that the Ekaterinburg Bolsheviks placed that body there, not Sokolov.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: rskkiya on July 13, 2004, 02:56:06 PM
Penny

You have the patience of a saint ... thats it! Saint Penny
the Scholar! ;D

I thought that this was a thread about Ortino Tatiana's  bulldog!

By the way, I had heard that the families pets were not house trained...Is this just a wicked story? Yuc! It would make for an awful mess!

R
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Olga on July 14, 2004, 04:08:14 AM
yes rskkiya! They called the dogs accidents the 'governor'!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Annie on July 14, 2004, 11:52:11 AM
I have always liked the story of Joy, but it is sadly ironic Joy got to live out a full life as an English country squire, which is what the Tsar had hoped to do if not refused by his cousin.

This is a very interesting thread, I am an animal lover and I'm so happy to see the Romanovs were, too. Thanks for the Imperial pets page!  I hate to think of the fates of the dogs and cats who were not taken with the family to Tobolsk. :-[
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Janet_W. on July 14, 2004, 02:32:00 PM
It also hurts to think about the tame deer being shot. And I've wondered about the Tsar's kennel of prized Border Collies. And Vanka, Alexei's donkey. And that elephant kept in their private zoo. (Plus any of the other zoo animals.) Not to mention all of the wonderful horses that Nicholas and his daughters rode.

As an animal lover myself, I've wondered about all these critters. And when we were in St. P 12 years ago, I cherished the sight of every cat I saw, knowing full well that pets simply did not survive the Siege of Leningrad.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: NAAOTMA on July 14, 2004, 02:35:03 PM
More detail than anyone could ever want to know:

Oriental rugs are great for hiding dog accidents. Victorians knew this to be useful household information. Still holds true today. (My doggies are no angels, despite my best efforts in that arena!)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2004, 06:45:08 PM
Quote


I think you already suspect what happen to the animals in those early months when all the trains came to a halt and food wasn't reaching the cities. :-[ And, to make it even more shocking,  when the cats, dogs and horses were just about gone, some of the pieces of meat sold were human.

When a person is starving they will even eat the paint off the wall...

Let's hope the story of the Tsar's animals saw a better fate.  I know the horses of the Austrian Emperor, the beautiful white Lippi___ [oh dear I've forgotten the spelling and no dictionary around], were sent out to the country side.   One of my great grandfathers in Rumania saved a hand full of mares and a stallion....  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Janet_W. on July 14, 2004, 06:55:26 PM
Oh yes, I'm aware of what happened during the 900 day siege. Among the luckier ones were certain employees of the Hermitage, who were allowed to bring in their families, take apart some of the books in the book collection and live on the glue and boiled leather.

Despite being an adult--of sorts--I'm still "crazy over horses," and I believe the name you are thinking of is Lippizan, or Lippizaner. Incredibly beautiful horses, born coal black, then they gradually turn white. General George Patton was also instrumental in saving a number of them.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2004, 10:50:41 PM
Quote
...I believe the name you are thinking of is Lippizan, or Lippizaner. Incredibly beautiful horses, born coal black, then they gradually turn white. General George Patton was also instrumental in saving a number of them.


Thanks for helping my spelling.  

And, yes, beautiful and smart, for horses, I'm told.

Anyway,  anyone out there know what happen to the Tsar's animals?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Olga on July 15, 2004, 04:21:42 AM
Not trying to sound mean, but they're really quite stupid as far as horses go.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: rskkiya on July 15, 2004, 03:27:30 PM
Olga

Da! Pravda... :D
Any horse that can be so carefully trained doesn't possess a great deal of inteligence...sad but true.
Its a bit like comparing the behaviour of a cat to a dog...One possesses more instinct ... the other has been bred for obedience and submission, not wit.

(now all the dog lovers will be after me ...EEEK!)

R.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2004, 04:17:54 PM
Geeeez, I'm wrong, again  :-/

What about Nicholas II's border collies?  Bet they had some brains.

From the report I've heard,  there is one smart border collie  that understand some 200 or was it 300 words.  He's being tested, and, it appears it's true.  For example,  they place a huge circle of toys and he's asked to go to a "ball" and he does.  This doesn't seem like much, accept, he's gone one step beyong.  If the scientists add a toy, say a toy fox, which he has never seen before,  he will look over the other toys in the circle, assumes the newest toy is the fox, picks it up and takes it to the person requesting that toy.  From that point forward, the toy, even if it's a sock, is known to the dog as a fox. So, be careful what you tell your pooch unless you have one big happy 120 pound Golden Retriever like we do who's not as smart as the average retriever, however, he carries a smile as big as his heart.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Janet_W. on July 15, 2004, 05:30:41 PM
Yes, I've heard about that Border Collie! The breed was relatively new when Nicholas began establishing a kennel of his own. Many of us alredy know that Iman, his favorite Border Collie, is one of the pets buried on the children's island.

As for animal intelligence, I think it's all relative; at best, we humans have some mighty strange methods of measuring such things.  Besides, give me "heart" over intelligence any day.   ;)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: ChristineM on July 15, 2004, 05:48:19 PM
Nicholas' favourite dog 'Iman' was a Shetland collie.   He did keep a kennel of Shelties.   Iman was his favourite.   The Emperor was dreadfully upset when he died.  

As far as I understand, After Iman died, Nicholas was determined never to become so close to a pet again.

tsaria
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Janet_W. on July 15, 2004, 06:12:57 PM
Hmm. Well, I had read they were Border Collies, but I stand (actually, sit!) corrected.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sunny on July 15, 2004, 07:00:00 PM
Agrbear, you are right about the Border Collie who understood over 300 words. That story made the news three weeks ago. Having at one time worked in animal rescue, and having two small, and three larger dogs, this subject is a favorite. I'm with whoever said "I wish I was the person my dog thinks I am"  :)  Don't think I have ever met a person who has displayed unconditional love, and infinite patience to the degree that most dogs do (dogs that haven't been abused by humans)...in the grand scheme of things that is pretty smart.  
 Tatiana's dog went to his death trying to protect her.

Sunny
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: NAAOTMA on July 15, 2004, 10:44:08 PM
Re: Nicholas's Collies

Where oh where did I read that his collie kennel came was a gift from Queen Victoria, who fell in love with the breed at Balmoral and actually contributed to its becoming a mainstream breed not just a regional one? Was it Robert Massie's N&A?

Where oh where did I read that Iman was a gift to Nicholas from his father?

As I grew up with collies, I share Victoria's and Nicholas' love of that wonderful breed. Ours were smart, cheerful, loyal and wonderful with children and other animals. Melissa K.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: ChristineM on July 16, 2004, 09:49:09 AM
Dear Janet W, et al

Sorry if I appeared pedantic.   May I refer you to the book 'THE ROMANOVS - love, power and tragedy':  page 139.    Here you will find a wonderful photograph of Nicholas II with Iman.   It was taken by Alexandra.   In the foreground one can see the distinct shape of her shadow.   Iman is gazing into his owner's face with adoration and anticipation.   I will endeavour to post it.   Should I fail, perhaps someone would be good enough to do so.   There are other illustrations too.   I will try to locate them.

I will try to remember my source for the Shelties' kennels (Shetland Collies or Sheepdogs).   It may well have been TS.

My own pedigree is Scottish.   I wonder if there are any other members of this breed on line?  

tsaria
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Forum Admin on July 16, 2004, 10:05:06 AM
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/iman.jpg)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Arleen on July 16, 2004, 04:14:17 PM
I just love that picture......my own breed is Scottish Terriers.  The best!!  I wish someone could prove that Alexandra did indeed have one.   ..Arleen
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: ChristineM on July 16, 2004, 06:31:21 PM
Wasn't Alexandra's dog, Eira, the pet she took with her to Russia in 1894 a Scottish or Skye terrier?

Whichever, apparently she had a habit of nipping strangers' heels which is characteristic of both breeds.

tsaria
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on January 23, 2005, 08:31:16 PM
Usually I call the dogs Jimmy and Ortino, but now I call Jimmy Jemmy because that sounds more appropriate. ::)
Ortipo sounds funny! At first i thought that it was an uthors typo and i was like, What??!!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on January 24, 2005, 09:04:03 PM
Quote
(http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/forumimages/iman.jpg)

Wow! I knew that the tsar and tsarina had many pets that they loved before joy,jemmy, and ortino but i have never seen pics! Are their any known pics of the Tsatina's terrier Eira? I heard the duchesses had a silver 'shovel' used to pick up Eira's accidents...lol
Jeez, I have gotta get that book!! :P
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: felix on January 25, 2005, 11:45:47 AM
Moonlight,  Anna V, said she gave Jemmy to the family. Thats what she  called it. I think your right, its Jemmy. F.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on January 26, 2005, 07:38:22 PM
Quote
Moonlight,  Anna V, said she gave Jemmy to the family. Thats what she  called it. I think your right, its Jemmy. F.


Yes. But perhaps it "translates" into jimmy, or people just want to think that. Actually, Viroubova game Jemmy to Tatiana, but the dog was in a "hearts" view, belogoned to Anastasia. she said that she didnt want him, but it was probly because she didnt want what happend to her first dog Shwibs to happen to Jemmy. ???
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on January 26, 2005, 08:47:48 PM
Hmmm, sorry to go off topic but if Joy survived, couldn't have Anastasia or the others?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Olga on January 26, 2005, 09:07:12 PM
Umm, no. How could they have survived? Any ideas?

Accept that they all died in the Ipatiev house.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Maria_Romanov_fan on January 26, 2005, 09:19:42 PM
Quote
Umm, no. How could they have survived? Any ideas?

Accept that they all died in the Ipatiev house.


Sorry DOlga. It was with all due respect.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on January 29, 2005, 09:55:37 PM
I just found out that Ortino was a GIRL!!  :o
the wholew time i thought he(well, she!)
was a boy!
here is how i found out:
(from an excerptin one of Anastasi's letters:)

"Ortino came running into the room looking for you[nicholas] but couldnt find you so [glb]she[/glb] just jumped on mama's laugh and slept. [glb]she's [/glb]such a dear!..."

Did anyone else know rthis, or is it widley known? ??? :-[ :D
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: moonlight_tsarina on January 29, 2005, 09:58:46 PM
Quote

Sorry DOlga. It was with all due respect.


:o

Well, i know what you mean friend!
lol...
that perhaps if a little insignifigent dog lived, couldnt za smart human?
but no, beause in reality, the dog was really insignifigent, and the Reds werent out to kill Joy, but the Romanovs! who would you try to kill if you saw escaping? a "socalled bloodrinking daughter of the tsar", or a little dog?
see?
Annie

:D
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: ferngully on March 06, 2005, 04:57:47 AM
i thought ortino was a boy! how funny!
selina              xxxxxxxxxxxx :D
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: David_Pritchard on July 16, 2005, 03:55:44 PM
Quote
As an animal lover myself, I've wondered about all these critters. And when we were in St. P 12 years ago, I cherished the sight of every cat I saw, knowing full well that pets simply did not survive the Siege of Leningrad.


Janet,

If you lived for some time in an average old Russian apartment building in Saint Petersburg, you might well reconsider your pleasure at seeing another cat roaming. While some people take good care of their cats with litter boxes, most just let them roam the hallways to squat or spray at will. After a few decades of this, the dash from the street to your appartment door becomes something like a military training exercise in a tear gas chamber. It is very hard to hold one long breath when your flat is on the third floor.

DAP
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 29, 2005, 10:01:51 PM
Can someone post some pictures of Tatiana and Ortino?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 29, 2005, 11:24:34 PM
(http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/8655/untitled7de.png)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Helene on August 30, 2005, 01:50:30 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a13/Angevine/t1.jpg)

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a13/Angevine/otma1917_1.jpg)

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a13/Angevine/tatiana-alexei1917.jpg)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on August 30, 2005, 01:53:57 AM
Thank you so much Helene!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on August 30, 2005, 02:19:50 AM
Wow! Where did you find the first one?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Helene on August 30, 2005, 05:04:47 AM
De rien Anastacia  :)

Clockwork, It comes from the photographic museum of Lausanne, you can find the entire picture in the book of Daniel Girardin (the curator of the museum), but there is an error in it, it is said that it is Olga, I write to the writer and he confirms the error, he don't know really the date between april and July 1917. There is an other picture with Tatiana and Alexis the same day ;).
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Helene on August 30, 2005, 06:29:28 AM
An other always the same day :

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a13/Angevine/t3.jpg)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Lanie on August 30, 2005, 09:54:37 AM
Helene--do you know where I could go about purchasing that book?  Would I have to write the University of Lausanne?  (I'm lucky I know enough French to get by!)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Helene on August 30, 2005, 10:36:44 AM
I buy it on Amazon  ;), the name of the book is "Précepteur des Romanov", it is about Pierre Gilliard when he was tutor of the children.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: matushka on August 30, 2005, 02:04:42 PM
Thank you, I will quicly buy it also!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: matushka on September 02, 2005, 07:24:04 AM
I tried to find an exact date for those pictures of Tatiana with Ortino and Aleksey, with help of the Nicolas`s diary. I must be end of March-beggining of April 1917, when the others were ill, and the ex-tsar spent time with Tatiana and Aleksey. I would suggest that they were made the 7 of april: "Work with Tatiana and Aleksey".
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Ortino on September 02, 2005, 09:40:11 AM
Quote
I tried to find an exact date for those pictures of Tatiana with Ortino and Aleksey, with help of the Nicolas`s diary. I must be end of March-beggining of April 1917, when the others were ill, and the ex-tsar spent time with Tatiana and Aleksey. I would suggest that they were made the 7 of april: "Work with Tatiana and Aleksey".


What picture with Alexei? The man standing next on the bridge is much too big to be him.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Robby on September 02, 2005, 09:44:32 AM
Alexei is cut off in the most of the pictures. Thats way Ortino!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Helene on September 02, 2005, 09:47:21 AM
In the book "Tsar", of Peter Kurth, it is said April, so maybe... It is always said that Tatiana and the tsar broke up ice floes in the canal under the watchful of guards, it is maybe the "work" the tsar wrote in his diary, you are a good investigator  ;)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Helene on September 02, 2005, 09:59:02 AM
With Alexis :

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a13/Angevine/ta.jpg)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Margarita Markovna on September 02, 2005, 12:25:13 PM
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/margaritamarkovna/tatianaandortinocolored.jpg)

And in color.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on September 02, 2005, 12:39:06 PM
What would be the date for the "best photo" of Ortino, the one with Tatiana and Maria  sitting on the grass and the dog beeing on Tatiana's laps ? It seems to be a nice sunny day !

I guess that the lovely Faberge figurine of Ortino that member Ortino has got in his avatar is the one displayed in the Cleveland Museum of Arts. As far as I know, there is another of these Ortino's figurines in HM Queen Elizabeth II private collection at Sandringham Palace. Does anybody know what happened to all the other Ortino's figurines that Tatiana had in her bedroom at Tzarkoie Seloe ? Are any of these Faberge figurines listed in the belongings that the IF had to leave when departing from Tobolsk ?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Helene on September 02, 2005, 01:08:53 PM
I read somewhere, it was in june 1917, but it is not easy to give the real date (but it is not maria it's Anastasia  ;))
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Ortino on September 02, 2005, 01:45:32 PM
Quote
I guess that the lovely Faberge figurine of Ortino that member Ortino has got in his avatar is the one displayed in the Cleveland Museum of Arts. As far as I know, there is another of these Ortino's figurines in HM Queen Elizabeth II private collection at Sandringham Palace. Does anybody know what happened to all the other Ortino's figurines that Tatiana had in her bedroom at Tzarkoie Seloe ? Are any of these Faberge figurines listed in the belongings that the IF had to leave when departing from Tobolsk?


Yes, it is the one from the Cleveland Museum I believe. There was a page about them/Ortino on the Alexander Palace main website which says that the rest have been "dispersed around the world". I would guess then that the rest are in other museums across the globe. I don't know the specifics though. I would guess that they were left at the palace when the family departed, stored with the rest of the Imperial belongings, and then resurfaced. Here's the page I was referring to:

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/Ortino.html

By the way, I'm female.  ;)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on September 02, 2005, 01:51:53 PM
Sorry " Madame or Mademoiselle " Ortino !
As for me, I am Dominique.....( male ! ).
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on September 02, 2005, 02:12:16 PM
I wish member Ortino is true about the " fate " of the Faberge figurines of frenchie Ortino and that they are in " good homes or museums " . I would VERY MUCH dislike people making money from them !
Helene, I looked for the book you are quoting. Is it " Le destin russe de Pierre Gilliard " by Daniel Girardin published by Actes Sud ? It seems to be pretty new and all in french ? Is it mainly photos from the Lausanne Exhibition or mainly text ? Thanks.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Helene on September 03, 2005, 01:39:54 AM
Yes, it is the same book :

- nearly 66 pictures ( unfortunately many are very small)
- 148 pages
- all is in french
- nothing really new if you know the story of the children but it can be a good beginning if it is not the case.

Hope that can help you  :) .
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Yoyo on September 06, 2005, 08:21:27 AM
Reference to Helene's picture of Tatiana and Alexei.

I have never seen it before, but I am pretty amazed at the number of guards around them. What are they doing? Are they guarding them so closely (and why so many?), or are they just around to pose for a picture?

Yoyo
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on April 19, 2006, 02:05:32 PM
Dear Bob,
I am a new memebr to this site but I still have in my private emails a message from you dated july 2004 about Ortino, and several ones from Rob Mosheim. Both of you were kind enough to give me a few explanations about Ortino and a marvellous photo of the dog too.

To-day, I red an article that a friend, who has been breeding french bulldogs for more than 40 years in the UK, sent me. It is not a new article and it comes from an american dogs magazine and was written by Carol Gravestock-Taylor. The author says that the last Imperial Family owned at least 2 frenchies and she quotes GD Anastasia, november 30 th 1914 " Now we've got another charming french puppy, Billie ". I think that here GD Anastasia is in fact talking about frenchie girl Ortino, which was a present to GD Tatiana from Dimitri de Malama around october 12 th 1914 ( Anna Viroubouva acting as " go-between " ). Isn'it simply a mistake in the calendar, Anastasia using the old rusian calendar which was 13 days ahead the western calendar ? Thus her letter would be dated " western way " november 13th, and Ortino was very " new " to the family then. Moreover, many french bulldogs then had a proper name indeed, but they were very often called " billie" in english, " bouboule " in french and " bullie " in german, whatever their proper name was. At the end of the article, there is a photo tittled " a cameo of Ortino that Tatiana treasured ". It looks rather like a plain photo of Ortino in a frame than like a proper cameo ??? I had never seen this before.

I am also very intrigued by the posting of Greg King dated 14/02/2004, where it is said that a first Ortino was short lived as the dog died in septemeber 1915 ( Empress Alexandra 's cable dated 05/09/1915 ) and that at once Dimitri de Malama gave another frenchie to GD Tatiana, whom she immediately named again Ortino ? Has this been verified ? I had never heard of it before. The only other french bulldog I know of that the IF had, and who was rather short lived indeed, is the brindle puppy that appears on many photos taken at the time Alexandra made a cure in Germany in 1910 and when the whole family stayed for several weeks with all the Hessian relatives. The french bulldog puppy appears either on a family group photo, sitting on Alexandra's knees. Or in the arms of Alexis. Or on a bench where Alexis is sitting surrounded by his 2 very young Hesse and The Rhine cousins. I am sorry to say that I do not remember or know the name of this first frenchie who did not live long. I would be very interested to know ( together with all french bulldogs lovers in France and in the United Kingdom ) whether anything new has come to light about " the 2 Ortinos " since Greg King sent his post in 02/2004 ? I have bought Mr Greg King 's last book which is a very interesting study of the Last Russian Court, but there is nothing more about these 2 presumed Ortinos, though of course the book is WONDERFUL in many ways.
Thanks and regards.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Natalya on June 25, 2006, 12:49:47 AM
I ran across this picture of Grand Dukes Nikolai Nikolaevich and Alexei Alexandrovich.   There in the midst of them are a few dogs.  The one on the front left of the picture is indeed a French Bulldog.  But is this Ortino?

(http://leebrossart.com/0000Romanov/gds_nikolainikolaevich_alexeialexandrovich.jpg)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: grandduchess_42 on June 30, 2006, 07:58:12 PM
What year was that taken?

i don't think so... beacuse ortino was kinda small!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Ortino on June 30, 2006, 09:08:52 PM
I don't think so. The dog in question looks too big and there seems to be a patch of white around the neck area, although that may just be due to reflections. French Bulldogs were popular companion pets during the early 20th century, so it would not be unexpected for them to be owned by other members of the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Princess_Olishka on June 30, 2006, 10:20:37 PM
I really don't think so. The royal family had a number of pets.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on July 01, 2006, 12:54:21 PM
There are in fact 2 french bulldogs on this photo. A pied one ( mainly white coat with some black spots ) with his head looking backwards towards the door, and a brindle one ( black coat with more or less fawn stripes and sometimes a white patch on the chest ) looking right at the camera ! This brindle frenchie is wearing the typical badger collar that posh french bulldogs used to wear in the old days ( this type of collar is very expensive nowadays and is rather an object of collection, though they still manufacture it on special order ). If this is GD Alexei Alexandrovitch who died in 1908, this brindle french bulldog cannot be Ortino who was given to Tatiana by Dimitri de Malama in october 1914. The pied frenchie might be Spot who belonged to GD Maria Palovna the elder and later on survived her, since Spot was adopted by GD Andrei Vladimirovitch in 1920 in France.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Guinastasia on July 01, 2006, 06:15:43 PM
IIRC, wasn't Ortino all black?  I believe there's a picture of her sitting on Tatiana's lap in Love, Power and Tragedy.

Was it Ortino who used to fight with Vaska, Olga's kitty?

Yes, I found the picture here (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/lastdays/three.html).  I hope Bob won't mind if I post it, since I uploaded it to my photobucket account:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/Guinastasia/History/tatana.jpg)

(Courtesy of Alexander Palace.  If I erred in posting it, I appologize and offer up my first born as payment. )

 ;)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Ortino on July 01, 2006, 09:33:02 PM
I had assumed that Ortino was all black as well, but in the photo you posted he instead looks like a brindle. Though, as I've said before, it may just be the photograph.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on July 04, 2006, 03:07:22 PM
It may be added that there are several shades in the brindle coat for french bulldogs : dark brindle, light brindle, silver brindle, golden brindle etc...and most of the brindle french bulldogs have that white patch on the chest which I do not particularly like. Judging from the different photos available of Ortino, I would say she was the " usual brindle " bitch, mostly black with some fawn hait here and there and a small white patch on the front chest. She had extremly good straight BAT EARS, not the " ten to two " position of the ears which is sadly so common nowadays with this breed of dogs.

Speaking about french bulldogs, maybe some one could help me please : I am trying to find out information about the french bulldog puppy that appears on several photos taken during the last stay of the IF in Hesse-Darmstadt, Wolfgarten, in the autumn of 1910. The dog appears on a family gathering photo, sitting on AF 's laps, and also with Alexis alone or with Alexis and his 2 Hessian cousins. I believe this was a private stay, due to AF more and more declining health and needing a cure. On the internet, I found out that Mr Greg King wrote an article on this particular stay of 1910, in a magazine named " ATLANTIS " but i think that the magazine is no longer published and that the issue with this particular article no longer available. I guess there might be some information about these photos ( already posted in different threads on this site ) with the french bulldog puppy in this article by Mr Greg King, so if anyone would be kind enough to let me know where and how the article or the magazine may be found and purchased, that would be of a great help and very much appreciated. Thanks.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on July 04, 2006, 03:14:18 PM
Sorry for the dreadful mistake in my pevious post, I did not mean the " usual brindle " pregnant dog, but the " usual brindle "  female dog, her coat beeing mainly black with a few fawn hair here and there, and a small white patch on the front chest. I would not say Ortino was small, but just the normal size for a young adult female french bulldog.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: matushka on December 19, 2006, 03:34:44 PM
Does anyone know what kind of dog was the little Anastasia's dog called "Schwibzik". She had it in 1915, and the little thing died the same year, I can find the exact datations. Perhaps was it also a french bulldog? Was it already written in those pages (I am sorry, I have no time to read all once more!) that Tatiana's frenchie gave birth to little dogs? And, by the way, the russians books, and I am thinking especially about "Sisters of mercy" with the GD's diaries are all writting OrtiPo...
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on December 19, 2006, 04:31:45 PM
And, by the way, the russians books, and I am thinking especially about "Sisters of mercy" with the GD's diaries are all writting OrtiPo...
I noticed that too! I've seen the dog's name written "Ortipo" once or twice in English but always assumed it was an error of transliteration. Now I'm beginning to wonder...
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: grandduchess_42 on December 19, 2006, 04:39:34 PM
whoa... i didn't know ortino had puppies
that obviouly makes ortino a female dog then  ::)

maybe it was spelled "ortipo" but pronounced "Ortino"
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: tatianolishka_ on December 19, 2006, 09:50:05 PM
Someone gave it an explanation in another thread, possibly Bear's Imperial Pets thread. I think it came down as a translation error because the two letters ("n" and "p" look the same in Russian and the handwriting messes it up).  :)

Ortino had PUPPIES? Please, somebody post excerpts mentioning this!

Hi matushka! Shwibsik (I write is as Shibzik, but it's the same thing) was believed to be a Japanese Chin or a King Charles Spaniel. Correct me if I'm wrong.  :)

TatOlia
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on December 20, 2006, 08:17:02 AM
Someone gave it an explanation in another thread, possibly Bear's Imperial Pets thread. I think it came down as a translation error because the two letters ("n" and "p" look the same in Russian and the handwriting messes it up).  :)
That's what I'd always thought, but the book matushka is referring to is *in* Russian. Of course, it's possible they misread Tatiana's Russian handwriting. "N" and "P" aren't exactly identical in Russian, but they're very similar:
н п

If Tatiana's writing is really *that* difficult to read, even for native Russians, we should probably look at another source for clues -- ideally someone who had actually heard the dog's name spoken! ;) Unfortunately, neither Buxhoeveden, Dehn, Gilliard, nor Vyrubova mention the dog's name in their memoirs.

Does anyone know if Alexandra's letters to Anya Vyrubova were written in English or Russian? Vyrubova quotes a letter from Alexandra in her memoirs that includes the line, "Ortino lies on my feet and keeps them warm."
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: matushka on December 20, 2006, 03:51:42 PM
Sarushka, the others girls are writing about Tatiana's dog in there letters to NA. Yes, Tatiana's handwritting was pretty difficult, but Anastasia's one, or Olga's one are quite easily readable. So, I can not imagine that people who read so much letters with the name Ortipo would have made an error all the time. As for the puppies, here is the quotation from a Tatiana's letter to her father. 17.09.1915 "... Vchera mne privezli Ortipo s detmi, chtoby ih pokazat'. Oni ochen' malen'kie i urodlivye i neizvestno, na chto i kogo oni pohoji. A Ortipo lejala smirno okolo nih v korzinke i strashno, vidno, boyalas, chtoby my ne draznili ili muchili malen'kih. No ih opiat' uvezli i potom privezut uje tol'ko odnu Ortipo." If someome can translate... Thanks! (Sisters of mercy, page 136).
Tatiananolishka, thanks for your answer to my little question!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on December 22, 2006, 10:09:12 PM
Thank you matushka, for that reference. I will attempt a translation after the holidays. (I fear my brain is wrapped up in a box under the Christmas tree!) ;)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Joyann1 on June 27, 2007, 05:00:20 AM
I had assumed that Ortino was all black as well, but in the photo you posted he instead looks like a brindle. Though, as I've said before, it may just be the photograph.

yeah it must be the photograph he was black.  Maby he looked brindle but that is maby the sun in the picture
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on July 06, 2007, 07:42:07 AM
Theoretically, black french bulldogs simply DO NOT EXIST. Some may seem entirely black, but in fact they have a few nearly invisible fawn hair and thus always carry the brindle gene. " Black " ( that is to say nearly no fawn hair ) is highly undesirable for the breed. Brindle means : basic colour fawn with some black hair and NOT basic colour black with some fawn hair, which is what the majority of people think. Light brindle, that is to say a balanced mixture of fawn and black hair is highly desirable for frenchies and they do look thus like miniature tigers coatwise ! Ortino was not black, but brindle, rather dark brindle, that clearly show on all photos.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: tatianolishka_ on July 06, 2007, 02:23:10 PM
That's interesting! So Ortino WAS a brindle... neat!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Joyann1 on July 06, 2007, 03:13:26 PM
uhmm ok wel my french bulldog is black  ::)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on July 06, 2007, 08:54:09 PM
I'm still confused.  ??? Excuse my changing the subject, but which dog was supposedly killed with the family? Is that still Jemmy? And did Tatiana really have two Ortinos?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: tatianolishka_ on July 06, 2007, 11:13:05 PM
The dog whose body was "supposedly" found is that of Jemmy. The reason I write "supposedly" is because the rate of decomposition showed it to be only there a week when it was found at least 2 years after the murder.

Tatiana received the first Ortino from Dmitri Malama. It promptly died and Dmitri immediately had another given to the grand duchess. So there were two Ortinos.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: grandduchess_42 on November 04, 2007, 08:20:19 PM
Does anybody know modern sites about getting a French Bull Dog. my parents saw one in the city, and want one!
and i loved French bull dogs since i learned about them!. so there might be a chance we can get one!

if there are any sites that are made for breeding them...
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: tatianolishka_ on November 04, 2007, 09:33:39 PM
I suppose it depends on where you live. Unless you want to "import" a Frenchie, I'm sure if you look around in your local classifieds you'll find ads for French Bulldogs. It took me a few papers, but I found my Lhasas in the paper awhile back. Happy me! :)

Hope you find your future little Frenchie buddy!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: grandduchess_42 on November 07, 2007, 09:18:29 AM
Thanks so much!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on November 09, 2007, 10:28:29 AM
Grandduchess, I would first have a look on the site of the French Bulldog of America where yoiu will find a certain number of information, including links to regional clubs. If you do not know this breed of dogs, look for a book about french bulldogs. Muriel Lee wrote several books about frenchies which are available on amazon, type Muriel Lee+french bulldogs on google. Over here in France, the price of a french bulldog ( I am talking about a pet dog and NOT a show dog ) varies between 1200 to 1600 Euros, which is expensive. I do not know the cost for a french bulldog in the USA, but they are not " cheap ". So be very careful and always ask for seeing both parents of the puppy, AT LEAST the mother. Look at the puppies' nostrils, they must be wide open and the puppy must breathe well ( never take a puppy with narrow nostrils ). Do not hesitate to email me if you have any questions.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: grandduchess_42 on November 11, 2007, 11:32:42 AM
Grandduchess, I would first have a look on the site of the French Bulldog of America where yoiu will find a certain number of information, including links to regional clubs. If you do not know this breed of dogs, look for a book about french bulldogs. Muriel Lee wrote several books about frenchies which are available on amazon, type Muriel Lee+french bulldogs on google. Over here in France, the price of a french bulldog ( I am talking about a pet dog and NOT a show dog ) varies between 1200 to 1600 Euros, which is expensive. I do not know the cost for a french bulldog in the USA, but they are not " cheap ". So be very careful and always ask for seeing both parents of the puppy, AT LEAST the mother. Look at the puppies' nostrils, they must be wide open and the puppy must breathe well ( never take a puppy with narrow nostrils ). Do not hesitate to email me if you have any questions.

:o
wow thanks so much!
i definatley will!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Joyann1 on November 11, 2007, 02:37:57 PM
Grandduchess, I would first have a look on the site of the French Bulldog of America where yoiu will find a certain number of information, including links to regional clubs. If you do not know this breed of dogs, look for a book about french bulldogs. Muriel Lee wrote several books about frenchies which are available on amazon, type Muriel Lee+french bulldogs on google. Over here in France, the price of a french bulldog ( I am talking about a pet dog and NOT a show dog ) varies between 1200 to 1600 Euros, which is expensive. I do not know the cost for a french bulldog in the USA, but they are not " cheap ". So be very careful and always ask for seeing both parents of the puppy, AT LEAST the mother. Look at the puppies' nostrils, they must be wide open and the puppy must breathe well ( never take a puppy with narrow nostrils ). Do not hesitate to email me if you have any questions.

:o
wow thanks so much!
i definatley will!

:O are you taking a french bulldog?
i got myself a frenchy to :D they are so sweet loyal :) only the snoring is somethimes anyoing haha xd and they get out of breath quick
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: grandduchess_42 on November 11, 2007, 08:27:51 PM
Thank you for all the advice.. i'll have to show my parents!!
thank you once again!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: I am_Tatianochka on February 01, 2008, 06:36:13 AM
I know Tatiana's first Ortino died,but what happened to it? :)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on February 05, 2008, 02:24:42 PM
I think a lot of the pets were buried on the Children's Island in Tsarekoe Selo.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: I am_Tatianochka on February 06, 2008, 08:51:20 AM
I think a lot of the pets were buried on the Children's Island in Tsarekoe Selo.

I mean, how did it die?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: grandduchess_42 on February 06, 2008, 09:32:29 PM
i'm spitballing here... but maybe age?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: tatianolishka_ on March 18, 2008, 11:37:46 AM
I believe I read somewhere it had a seizure, and the death was attributed to a brain problem. If we look back in Alexandra's letters, I think she mentions it. Because Ortino I died less than a year after Tatiana got it, so I don't think age was a part of it (unless Dmitri gave her a very old bulldog... ???)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: I am_Tatianochka on March 18, 2008, 03:44:37 PM
Thanks, I had a feeling thats what happened to it... ;)

Tatianochka. :)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on January 04, 2009, 04:07:05 PM
I've brought this up before, but the more Russian sources I read, the more strongly I believe Tatiana's dog's name was in fact Ortipo. Virtually all the Russian sources that directly quote archival documents use the "p" spelling, as do a few English sources. I find it hard to believe that so many different Russian-speaking editors looking at the original letters and diaries written by various members of the imperial family all could have made the same mistake.

Russian sources for "Ortipo":
Royal Sisters of Mercy (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=64) (quoted in OTMA's letters & diaries)
Dnevniki Nikolaya II i Imperatritsy Aleksandry Fedorovny: 1917-1918 (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=94)
Tsesarevich (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=46) (quoted in Aleksei's 1916 diary)
Pered Rasstrelom (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=28) (quoted in Alexandra's letters)

English sources for "Ortipo":
Complete Wartime Correspondence (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=5) (quoted in both N&A's letters)
Vyrubova (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/russiancourt2006/xxi.html) (quoted in Alexandra's letters)

Lili Dehn (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/realtsaritsa/1chap4.html) gives a similar alternate spelling: Artipo. Dehn is by no means a scholarly source like  The Complete Wartime Correspondence, but she (like Vyrubova) would have heard the dog's name spoken by the IF themselves, so I find her approximation particularly compelling evidence.


Letters compiled and posted on the main APTM site give both spellings: Alexandra is quoted using "Ortipo" and Anastasia (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/adiaries.html) uses "Ortino." Anastasia's letters were obtained by Bob & Rob through a Russian research assistant who personally retrieved them from GARF -- however, Royal Sisters of Mercy (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=64) quotes some of those same letters by Anastasia, giving the spelling as "Ortipo," so something is clearly amiss. In fact, the only print sources I've been able to determine that support "Ortino" are  French or English: Eugenie de Greece's Les tsarevitch: enfant martyr, Spiridovich, and Fate of the Romanovs (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=8).


For the record, neither Gilliard, Buxhoeveden, nor Massie seem to mention the dog by name.

This will likely ruffle a few feathers but IMO the majority of the evidence suggests that the "Ortino" spelling is a mis-transliteration, and Ortipo is correct.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Marie-Catherine on January 04, 2009, 04:16:19 PM
In fact, from what I've seen, in Eugenie of Greece's Le tsarevitch : Enfant martyr, it was written Ortipo. Maybe, in other parts of the books, it was Ortino, but I've never seen it.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on January 04, 2009, 04:30:00 PM
In fact, from what I've seen, in Eugenie of Greece's Le tsarevitch : Enfant martyr, it was written Ortipo. Maybe, in other parts of the books, it was Ortino, but I've never seen it.

Oh -- thank you for the correction! My source for that info was an old post by Lanie. I have only excerpts of Le tsarevitch, so I don't know if other parts of the book use the "Ortino" spelling, or if Lanie was mistaken.

Do you recall a page number so I can have a look for myself? (Not that I don't trust you -- I'm just curious if it's the IF or the author who use the "P" spelling.)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Marie-Catherine on January 04, 2009, 04:35:39 PM
It's on page 261, where Olga's says that a pig found a way to fight with Ortipo.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on January 04, 2009, 04:45:48 PM
Ha! That's an unusual detail. : D
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 04, 2009, 04:54:21 PM
It's on page 261, where Olga's says that a pig found a way to fight with Ortipo.

What? Pig? May I know more please?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Marie-Catherine on January 04, 2009, 07:12:24 PM
Here's a draft translation by me of that part of the letter : "Alex Petr. sold the pigs for 9oo Rub., keeping only one, the woman, I believe, which also found a way to fight with Ortipo. Jim coughs and is staying home. "

It comes from a looong letter Olga wrote for her mother. It's from April 15/28 to April 22/May 5 1918.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Leyla on January 04, 2009, 08:13:30 PM
Here's a draft translation by me of that part of the letter : "Alex Petr. sold the pigs for 9oo Rub., keeping only one, the woman, I believe, which also found a way to fight with Ortipo. Jim coughs and is staying home. "

It comes from a looong letter Olga wrote for her mother. It's from April 15/28 to April 22/May 5 1918.

That's very cute. I don't think I have ever read this letter. Do you have it in full?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Marie-Catherine on January 04, 2009, 08:19:55 PM
I only have it in French. It's actually not my book and I only have some excerpts that Sarushak sent to me, because she knew I speak French.

The letter is very, very long. As I said, she covers 7 days and Olga wrote a lot. More, I don't know if I can post my personnal translation on the forum. Maybe, Sarushka could tell me if I can or cannot ?
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: I am_Tatianochka on April 29, 2009, 04:30:50 PM
When did she get her? :)
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Victory_L on May 17, 2009, 02:47:28 PM
Добрый день! Я получила из архива ГАРФ копию письма Татьяны Николаевны к отцу. В этом письме она сообщает отцу о щенках Ортипо. Письмо написано по-русски и имя собаки она пишет "Ортипо", а не "Ортино". Я спросила об этом у Нины Зверевой (автор книги "Августейшие сестры милосердия") Она видела в архиве много писем дочерей Николая II и сказала, что девочки иногда путали буквы, так как говорили и писали на трех языках. Но чаще имя собаки писали "Ортипо". К сожалению, не могу разместить фото письма на этой странице. Я поместила фото в своем фотоальбоме: http://www.liveinternet.ru/photoalbumshow.php?albumid=106333&seriesid=1241051


I have receivet a copy of the letter from Tatiana to father. In this letter she writes about puppies callet Ortipo.The letter is in russian and she uses the name "Ortipo" instead of " Ortino" I asked about it Nina Zvereva(who is the author of the book "Avgusteyshie Sestry Miloserdiya" (Royal Sisters of Mercy). She had looked a lot of letters of Nikolai II daughter`s and she said that the girls sometimes mixed a letters at the message. The reason was they were about to speak and write on three languages. The name of the dog was used Ortipo more often. Unfortunately I am  not can to put a copy of the letter on this page.  I have inserted it in  my fotoalbum:
              http://www.liveinternet.ru/photoalbumshow.php?albumid=106333&seriesid=1241051
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: nena on May 17, 2009, 02:55:38 PM
Thank you a lot, ! Nice to see you back here! So, Tatiana used 'Ortipo'.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Victory_L on May 17, 2009, 03:07:06 PM
Thank you, Nena! So do I am glad meeting!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on June 12, 2009, 11:52:28 PM
Quote
This will likely ruffle a few feathers but IMO the majority of the evidence suggests that the "Ortino" spelling is a mis-transliteration, and Ortipo is correct.

Well, that is going to take some getting used to.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: mitia on June 22, 2009, 11:37:21 AM
All this is wonderful to know, and with years passing by we shall know more and more.....
 I have been a " french bulldog person " for YEARS ( I am 53 years old ), and Ortino or Ortipo does not really make any difference for me. The important thing is that Tatiana had a brindle Frenchie, that she liked her dearly and had the consolation of having her Frenchie with her till the very end of her far too short life.
My Frenchie is Duncan, some days I call him Can, others Titi, other HE decides himself what his name will be for the day. That is just French Bulldog way of life, and French Bulldog people on this forum will understand what I mean.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Victory_L on June 22, 2009, 03:06:06 PM
 Yes,mitia! The best words! 
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on October 24, 2009, 02:34:39 AM
sorry if this was posted earlier. Nice article about Tatiana's frenchy

http://www.bullmarketfrogs.com/articles/tatiana_and_ortino.htm
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Victory_L on October 27, 2009, 01:16:52 PM
 Sorry, blessOTMA ! This article is very-very old . Not all facts is correctly.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on October 27, 2009, 04:26:47 PM
Sorry, blessOTMA ! This article is very-very old . Not all facts is correctly.

Thank you for letting me know! 
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: cebi26 on October 28, 2009, 11:56:18 AM
Great article!
Hey, one question. If Jemmy bones had been found months after the murder of IF, and died only weeks ago, the history that Anastasia died with Jemmy in her arms is false, right?

PS: Sorry for my english ;D
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: nena on October 28, 2009, 11:58:58 AM
According to the different testimones, Jemmy was presented in the cellar room. One comrade said 'Dogs die like dogs', while stabbing puppy; something like that , this is not verabtim.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on October 28, 2009, 08:14:20 PM
Jemmy was really small ....right?   I think I see him in Anastasia's  lap in that photo of the four girls taking a break from gardening at AP in early captivity. The IF had three dogs with them in the end. My understanding is Jemmy died with Anastasia and  the family. Another dog, whose name I'm forgetting, was killed with the bayonet to shut it up ...and Joy ran  off and so survived. It's amazing that of all of them,  Joy got to England. But I'm thinking that would have pleased Alexi.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on October 28, 2009, 08:17:38 PM
.... Another dog, whose name I'm forgetting, was killed with the bayonet to shut it up ...

well that's an official " senior moment"  the other dog was Ortino  of course! lol!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: nena on October 28, 2009, 08:27:40 PM
I am not so sure whatever happened to Ortino/Ortipo. Gilliard mentioned seeing Tatiana Nicholaievna for the last time,  after reaching to Ekaterinburg in May of 1918., she held it in her arms
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 28, 2009, 08:36:45 PM
Attention  "blessOTMA":  I think that you will find it interesting to refer to "Sarushka's" post # 120 on this same thread, to get a different "take" on the dog's name.   That is why "nena" (in his post # 143) refers to an alternate spelling.   Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: nena on October 28, 2009, 08:52:13 PM
Sarushka, the others girls are writing about Tatiana's dog in there letters to NA. Yes, Tatiana's handwritting was pretty difficult, but Anastasia's one, or Olga's one are quite easily readable. So, I can not imagine that people who read so much letters with the name Ortipo would have made an error all the time. As for the puppies, here is the quotation from a Tatiana's letter to her father. 17.09.1915 "... Vchera mne privezli Ortipo s detmi, chtoby ih pokazat'. Oni ochen' malen'kie i urodlivye i neizvestno, na chto i kogo oni pohoji. A Ortipo lejala smirno okolo nih v korzinke i strashno, vidno, boyalas, chtoby my ne draznili ili muchili malen'kih. No ih opiat' uvezli i potom privezut uje tol'ko odnu Ortipo." If someome can translate... Thanks! (Sisters of mercy, page 136).
Tatiananolishka, thanks for your answer to my little question!

Ooh my... How didn't I see this one earlier. The Caption says:
   Yesterday, I got Ortipo with children to be shown (me) them '. They are very small and ugly and who knows what and whom they resemble. Ortipo lays quietly beside them in a basket and frightened, apparently, afraid that we are not teasing nor tormenting the little ones. But they again 'were taken away and then brought one already like Ortipo.

It seems that Ortipo was female, and she got puppies. * ;)*
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on October 28, 2009, 09:06:24 PM
Attention  "blessOTMA":  I think that you will find it interesting to refer to "Sarushka's" post # 120 on this same thread, to get a different "take" on the dog's name.   That is why "nena" (in his post # 143) refers to an alternate spelling.   Regards,  AP.

Ah! Thank you! That was very  enlightening. I took the spelling right from the tread heading...and had missed that post

This was interesting from Sarushka's post

Lili Dehn gives a similar alternate spelling: Artipo. Dehn is by no means a scholarly source like The Complete Wartime Correspondence, but she (like Vyrubova) would have heard the dog's name spoken by the IF themselves, so I find her approximation particularly compelling evidence.

This reminds me of something I thought might be an interesting addition at AP. I wish there were audio files with the correct pronunciation of words. I know I have been saying " Nikolaevna"  wrong for nearly 4 decades
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: nena on October 28, 2009, 09:29:37 PM
I think it is Artipo because 'o' in Russian pronounces as 'a'. Romanov sounds 'Ramanav'. Written form is indeed 'o', while it pronounces as 'a'.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on October 28, 2009, 10:14:12 PM
Do we know what the name means??
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on October 28, 2009, 10:19:14 PM
Yes, "nena," it is so.  In my earlier language studies of years ago, I struggled with the simplest of such written-versus-spoken single letters as "o/a," as in the final letter of the Russian "Thank you" and the written "o" in "boyar."  It is obviously "do-able" with time. guidance, practice and dedication, but for a real treat/challenge in linguistics, try Welsh !   AP
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: tatianolishka_ on November 07, 2009, 06:44:48 PM
Ah, back to my favorite topics after so long - Imperial Pets!

I love the fact that we have new evidence into the bulldog's name - Ortipo/Artipo. Whatever his name was, he must've been a much-loved pet right until the very end.

In response to a question awhile back regarding the fate of the dogs at Ipatiev, it is known that Joy survived (Alexei's spaniel). Beyond that there is much room for speculation. A quote from Yurovsky states that Ortipo (as I shall now on refer to the pup as) was barking like mad in the house, and ended the dog's life by stabbing it with a bayonet. The "dog's death for a dog" quote was also related to this. The remains of Jemmy, Anastasia's Cavalier King Charles, were discovered during an investigation some time after the murders. The dog was identified by one of the childrens' tutors (Gilliard or Gibbes, forgive me as I'm a little rusty on my facts), however the rate of decomposition did not match up to the date of the murders. There is a disturbing photo of the dead dog that exists somewhere, which I hope not to see anytime soon.

Yet anyways, thank you very much for keeping this thread alive in my absence and I hope that all the new members have been able to learn a little about the dogs of the IF - a subject very dear to my heart!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on November 07, 2009, 07:42:35 PM
I believe at least two of the executioners' statements mention Anastasia carrying a dog to the cellar. I don't remember which ones at the moment, but I'll try to remember to post their names next time I run across the info. Strekotin may have been one of them.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: nena on November 07, 2009, 07:49:30 PM
Good memory!

With them came Yurovsky, Nikulin, Medvedev, and Ermakov, the last one I knew from the Dutov Front. All of the arrested ones were dressed in the usual manner, and were clean and neat. The Tsar carried his son in his arms. Anastasia carried a little dog. The ex-Empress leaned on the arm of her eldest daughter, Olga.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on November 08, 2009, 12:32:30 AM
I only have it in French. It's actually not my book and I only have some excerpts that Sarushak sent to me, because she knew I speak French.

The letter is very, very long. As I said, she covers 7 days and Olga wrote a lot. More, I don't know if I can post my personnal translation on the forum. Maybe, Sarushka could tell me if I can or cannot ?

Was this letter of Olga's ever posted else where in AP form? The idea of Ortino fighting with a pig,
cracks me up. Ortino was a character . But it would be a very interesting document generally of course.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: nena on November 08, 2009, 04:16:56 AM
I think it comes from a French book about Tsarevich Alexei, if I recall correct.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortipo
Post by: Sarushka on November 08, 2009, 06:42:48 AM
I think it comes from a French book about Tsarevich Alexei, if I recall correct.

That's right. There are a number of Tobolsk letters in Le Tsarevitch, enfant martyr (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=97) that haven't been published elsewhere.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on November 08, 2009, 05:37:23 PM
Alexi's diary and letters when the family  was  seperated??!!
 wow!
Amazing this book has what others don't. 
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: RHB on November 08, 2009, 07:01:38 PM
Good memory!

With them came Yurovsky, Nikulin, Medvedev, and Ermakov, the last one I knew from the Dutov Front. All of the arrested ones were dressed in the usual manner, and were clean and neat. The Tsar carried his son in his arms. Anastasia carried a little dog. The ex-Empress leaned on the arm of her eldest daughter, Olga.

Which book is that? And if it happens to be FOTR what page i may have missed that skimming through before actually reading it right away (if it isn't FOTR then you needn't have to answer the 2nd question).

Thanks!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on November 08, 2009, 08:28:02 PM
Good memory!

With them came Yurovsky, Nikulin, Medvedev, and Ermakov, the last one I knew from the Dutov Front. All of the arrested ones were dressed in the usual manner, and were clean and neat. The Tsar carried his son in his arms. Anastasia carried a little dog. The ex-Empress leaned on the arm of her eldest daughter, Olga.

Which book is that? And if it happens to be FOTR what page i may have missed that skimming through before actually reading it right away (if it isn't FOTR then you needn't have to answer the 2nd question).

Thanks!

I'm 99% sure I have that testimony in Russian in Ispoved' Tsareubiits (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=91).
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Olga Maria on November 11, 2009, 09:44:50 PM
This was interesting from Sarushka's post
Lili Dehn gives a similar alternate spelling: Artipo. Dehn is by no means a scholarly source like The Complete Wartime Correspondence, but she (like Vyrubova) would have heard the dog's name spoken by the IF themselves, so I find her approximation particularly compelling evidence.
I’ve read a bit ago that in Russian, an “o” will have an “ah” sound if it’s accented. Thus, I think now that the first “o” in Ortipo is accented that’s why Lili Dehn [who didn’t speak Russian, so probably, she doesn’t know the spelling] spelled Ortipo as “Artipo” in her memoirs.  Ortipo’s name in Cyrillic might be spelled as Оьртипо.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: matushka on November 12, 2009, 06:25:54 AM
Lili Dehn didn't speak Russia??? Are you sure???
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on November 12, 2009, 07:22:46 AM
Lili Dehn didn't speak Russia??? Are you sure???

Apparently Lili Dehn spoke Russian somewhat poorly as a child. Despite being born in Russia, her family spoke French at home. I don't know how fluent she became as an adult.

It's possible that while writing her book she chose to spell the dog's name the way it would sound to English readers, rather than transliterate it literally.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sunny on December 05, 2011, 08:42:01 AM
I know the problem of the correct spelling of the name has already been long discussed, but i've noted that russian sites spell it ORTINO, with a N not a P.
I don't want to rise the question again, just stating it out because it could be interesting to know.
Take a look here, if you understand Russian: http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/tatasoz/post144624543/ (http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/tatasoz/post144624543/) (Thanks BlessOTMA to have segnalized me the site!)
Near the end you can read:

Татьяна и Анастасия Романовы с бульдогом Ортино 
Tat'jana and Anastasija Romanov with bulldog ORTINO.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: blessOTMA on December 05, 2011, 09:01:48 AM
Sunny, I may have told you of that site, but I had not seen that post! Thank you! Nicholas is smiling in one of the elephant feeding photos and he looks like he did as a boy! He faces was so expressive when he smiles
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on December 05, 2011, 03:47:57 PM
I know the problem of the correct spelling of the name has already been long discussed, but i've noted that russian sites spell it ORTINO, with a N not a P.

It's not surprising, since the Russian N and P are so similar and Tatiana's handwriting is so difficult. That's why Lili Dehn's spelling was the deciding clue for me.

What we really need is to see the dog's name in someone else's handwriting. Maybe Helen A. can help with that. I know she has a number of photocopies of Olga's letters and diary entries.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sunny on December 06, 2011, 01:09:42 AM
What we really need is to see the dog's name in someone else's handwriting. Maybe Helen A. can help with that. I know she has a number of photocopies of Olga's letters and diary entries.

That's a really good idea. I thought it could be interesting to know how Russian interpretated the spelling.
I tried to find out something about that "hero" of Russian legends from whom the dog (and Malama's horse first of all) took the name, but no way so far.

Sunny, I may have told you of that site, but I had not seen that post!

I used my little Russian knowledge (even if i studied at the college my russian is not good at all) to browse in the site & other blogs, there are some interesting pages i can post you as soon as I can ^^
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 21, 2012, 11:57:59 AM
I know the problem of the correct spelling of the name has already been long discussed, but i've noted that russian sites spell it ORTINO, with a N not a P.
I don't want to rise the question again, just stating it out because it could be interesting to know.
Take a look here, if you understand Russian: http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/tatasoz/post144624543/ (http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/tatasoz/post144624543/) (Thanks BlessOTMA to have segnalized me the site!)
Near the end you can read:

Татьяна и Анастасия Романовы с бульдогом Ортино 
Tat'jana and Anastasija Romanov with bulldog ORTINO.

True, but note that the text above the photograph has this parenthetical comment:
(в другой транскрипции Ортипо)
"In another transcription Ortipo"

I realize that this has been discussed exhaustively here and on the Imperial pets thread, but, having read so many letters from captivity,  I have to vote in favor of "Ortipo" as the dog's name.

1) In the Empress' letter to A. A. Vyrubova of December 8, 1917, she writes "Ortipo". And A. A. Vyrubova read it as such, and reproduced it as "Ortipo" in both the original Russian and in the English translation of that letter in both editions of her published memoirs.

2) In her letter of January 6, 1917 to Lili Dehn, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna definitely wrote "Ortipo", with a "p".


3) Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna herself wrote "Ortipo" in her letter of January 11, 1918, to Catherine Zborovskaya.

She wrote:
"...Please convey our very warmest regards to everyone. – Ortipo is well, but is turning into such a lazy-bones. She spends the whole day lying near the stove or else on the divans..."

In Russian:
"Передайте пожалуйтса всѢмъ самый сердечный привѢтъ. – Ортипо здорова, но становится страшной лѢнтяйкой. ЦѢлый день лежитъ у печи или на диванахъ."

Here is the handwritten Russian text:

[It's a photocopy of a photocopy of a photograph, so enlarge it for reading.]

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_TatianaOrtiPo.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=TatianaOrtiPo.jpg)

Note that when writiing "Ortipo" [see No. 1 on the photocopy], Grand Duchess Tatiana lifted her pen after the "и" (i) in order to start the curving top loop at the beginning of the "п" (p).

Compare that with the "п" in the word "пожалуйста" two lines above (No. 2 on the photocopy), and with the "п" in "печи" three lines below.

By the way, Grand Duchess Tatiana often drew the concluding loop of a final "o" as a straight line, as she did here in the word "Ortipo".

From another letter written by Grand Duchess Tatiana on the same day (this time to M. S. Khitrovo):
"My Darling Rita,
Thank you so much for the sweet letter and postcard. I was very glad to hear from you at last. Luba [L. S. Khitrovo] occasionally writes to Anastasia..."

In Russian:
"Рита моя милая, Спасибо большое за милое письмо и открытку. Рада была наконецъ отъ Васъ услышать. Люба иногда пишетъ Анастасіи..."

The handwritten Russian text:

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_TatianaHandwritingRita.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=TatianaHandwritingRita.jpg)

Look at the "п" in the word "письмо" (No. 1 on the photocopy), and at the "п" in the word "пишетъ" two lines below

Note also how the "н" in the word "наконецъ" (second word at No. 2 on photocopy) is formed differently.

When writing "н" or "и" in Russian, Grand Duchess Tatiana would begin with a nearly vertical upward stroke from the line.

When forming "п", she would begin that letter higher up, making a rising, then descending, loop.


From all of the above, I think that we can conclude that the dog's name was indeed "Ortipo".
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 21, 2012, 12:08:13 PM

PS: I forgot to add that Catherine Zborovskaya, the recipient of Grand Duchess Tatiana's letter, and her brother, V. E. Zborovsky, an officer in H. I. M. Own Convoy, both read the dog's name as "Ortipo" in that letter, and they reproduced it as such in the history of the Convoy published in Russian in San Francisco, CA, in 1961.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sunny on January 21, 2012, 12:34:04 PM
I know the problem of the correct spelling of the name has already been long discussed, but i've noted that russian sites spell it ORTINO, with a N not a P.
I don't want to rise the question again, just stating it out because it could be interesting to know.
Take a look here, if you understand Russian: http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/tatasoz/post144624543/ (http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/tatasoz/post144624543/) (Thanks BlessOTMA to have segnalized me the site!)
Near the end you can read:

Татьяна и Анастасия Романовы с бульдогом Ортино 
Tat'jana and Anastasija Romanov with bulldog ORTINO.

True, but note that the text above the photograph has this parenthetical comment:
(в другой транскрипции Ортипо)
"In another transcription Ortipo"

I realize that this has been discussed exhaustively here and on the Imperial pets thread, but, having read so many letters from captivity,  I have to vote in favor of "Ortipo" as the dog's name.

1) In the Empress' letter to A. A. Vyrubova of December 8, 1917, she writes "Ortipo". And A. A. Vyrubova read it as such, and reproduced it as "Ortipo" in both the original Russian and in the English translation of that letter in both editions of her published memoirs.

2) In her letter of January 6, 1917 to Lili Dehn, Grand Duchess Olga Nicholaevna definitely wrote "Ortipo", with a "p".


3) Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna herself wrote "Ortipo" in her letter of January 11, 1918, to Catherine Zborovskaya.

She wrote:
"...Please convey our very warmest regards to everyone. – Ortipo is well, but is turning into such a lazy-bones. She spends the whole day lying near the stove or else on the divans..."

In Russian:
"Передайте пожалуйтса всѢмъ самый сердечный привѢтъ. – Ортипо здорова, но становится страшной лѢнтяйкой. ЦѢлый день лежитъ у печи или на диванахъ."

Here is the handwritten Russian text:

[It's a photocopy of a photocopy of a photograph, so enlarge it for reading.]

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_TatianaOrtiPo.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=TatianaOrtiPo.jpg)

Note that when writiing "Ortipo" [see No. 1 on the photocopy], Grand Duchess Tatiana lifted her pen after the "и" (i) in order to start the curving top loop at the beginning of the "п" (p).

Compare that with the "п" in the word "пожалуйста" two lines above (No. 2 on the photocopy), and with the "п" in "печи" three lines below.

By the way, Grand Duchess Tatiana often drew the concluding loop of a final "o" as a straight line, as she did here in the word "Ortipo".

From another letter written by Grand Duchess Tatiana on the same day (this time to M. S. Khitrovo):
"My Darling Rita,
Thank you so much for the sweet letter and postcard. I was very glad to hear from you at last. Luba [L. S. Khitrovo] occasionally writes to Anastasia..."

In Russian:
"Рита моя милая, Спасибо большое за милое письмо и открытку. Рада была наконецъ отъ Васъ услышать. Люба иногда пишетъ Анастасіи..."

The handwritten Russian text:

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_TatianaHandwritingRita.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=TatianaHandwritingRita.jpg)

Look at the "п" in the word "письмо" (No. 1 on the photocopy), and at the "п" in the word "пишетъ" two lines below

Note also how the "н" in the word "наконецъ" (second word at No. 2 on photocopy) is formed differently.

When writing "н" or "и" in Russian, Grand Duchess Tatiana would begin with a nearly vertical upward stroke from the line.

When forming "п", she would begin that letter higher up, making a rising, then descending, loop.


From all of the above, I think that we can conclude that the dog's name was indeed "Ortipo".

That's really, really interesting, Inok Nikolai! You've helped me a lot. Thanks soo much!
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on January 21, 2012, 02:08:19 PM
Marvelous, Inok Nikolai -- thank you so much for the visual examples. I've been hoping for something of this nature for a long time.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sunny on January 21, 2012, 03:40:00 PM
Marvelous, Inok Nikolai -- thank you so much for the visual examples. I've been hoping for something of this nature for a long time.

Ditto
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 21, 2012, 04:03:20 PM
Thanks.

I just wish that the letterr to Zborovskaya was of better quality.

Perhaps someone will come up with a clearer copy of "Sobstvenniy Ego Imperatorskago Velichestva Konvoy", where it is found as an illustration: Document No. 10.
It was compiled by Col. N. V. Galushkin, of the Convoy, and was published in San Francisco in 1961.
Only 500 copies were printed.
All we have is a photocopy.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 25, 2012, 07:50:24 PM

I can't recall where I found this link. Perhaps it already appeared somewhere else here on the Alexander Palace Forum, but this is a much clearer example of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna's handwriting (from a letter to her father in 1915), where she definitely writes the name as "Ortipo".

It's quite evident in this sample how her "i" is written from bottom moving up, while the "p" is definitely arced from above moving down.


http://www.liveinternet.ru/photo/kusado/post17881947/
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortino
Post by: Sarushka on January 25, 2012, 08:53:09 PM

I can't recall where I found this link. Perhaps it already appeared somewhere else here on the Alexander Palace Forum, but this is a much clearer example of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna's handwriting (from a letter to her father in 1915), where she definitely writes the name as "Ortipo".

New to me! Thanks.
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortipo
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 25, 2012, 09:21:39 PM

I just realized that it comes from this series of photographs, "Tsarskoe Selo, 100 Years Ago and Today"!

http://www.liveinternet.ru/photoalbumshow.php?albumid=106333&seriesid=1241051
Title: Re: Tatiana's French bulldog, Ortipo
Post by: Victory_L on April 20, 2015, 03:13:27 AM
Спасибо, Инок Николай! Вы дали ссылку на мою страницу. Там есть статья про царских любимцев (5 сообщений). Теперь удобно смотреть фотографии о семье Романовых и Царском Селе через 100 лет на сайте Пинтерест  , Если вам интересно какое-то место в моем городе, напишите, я сделаю фото и поставлю в альбоме.
 Google translation: Thank you, Inоk Nicholai! You gave a link to my page. There is an article about the king's favorites (5 messages). Now it is convenient to view photos of the Romanov family and Tsarskoye Selo after 100 years on the site Pinterest https://www.pinterest.com/lnghome/%D1%86%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%BE-%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4-%D0%BF%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD-%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81-%D0%B8-100-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D1%82-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%B4/
 If you are interested in a place in my town, write, and I will put the photos in the album.