Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: zackattack on February 04, 2007, 09:05:02 PM

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: zackattack on February 04, 2007, 09:05:02 PM
Thank you Zack Attack for the interesting info. Especially this

Quote
worried that Margarita would be prosecuted for Franciska's activities

That makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Of course the family would still be afraid of that, and as you also mentioned, 'embarrassed.' This is why they don't speak out more about her. It's a shame they don't, it would stop a lot of outrageous theories from going around.

Here is another:


xxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm afraid again I have to say I really don't remember the details some
10 years later.  I'm not an Anna Anderson fanatic!!!

I think you could do these things:

1.  Go to Harvard and look at Anna Anderson's lawyer's files. There
were witness statements he had about the Schanzkowska family - a lot of
information that  nobody has ever published. (Look in the Kurth book
for where the archive is and what it is called - I can't remember). For
example there are descriptions of Francesca's scars which match with
Anna Anderson's.

2. Ask for access to the Hesse archive in Germany - they came up with
the Scaknzkowska theory after research, as you will know.

3. Speak to Philip Remy , a German TV producer who has done more
research on AA than anybody else. He'll be on top of this subject quite
possibly. (Tel number a few years ago was: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

4. Speak to Felix Schanzkowska's daughter, if she is still alive (she
was 8 years ago). She told me Anna Anderson was her father's sister and
they all knew all along but didn't want to give her away. I didn't use
her on my TV programme because she wanted money to speak which was
against our policy.
Her phone number used to be (in Germany) :

Waltraud von Czenskowski (is what she calls herself rather grandly)
Hamburg: xxxxxxxxxxx
MERSEBERG:xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

5. Why don't you track down Carl Maucher and ask him? He was living an
hour south of Munich. You'll probably find him in the phone book!
However he doesn't speak English. I could try to find his address for
you but it will take me some time because all my records are stored 6
hours away from where I am. I suggest you try the phone book first.


Hope that helps

Julian
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Cornholio on February 06, 2007, 01:35:13 PM
Thank you again, Zack. I had long suspected there was stuff out there that was never published that would seriously hurt Andersen's case. Of course, anyone writing a book in her favor is not going to use those things. Zack, how about you write a book telling the true story, and finally put this legend to rest?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: zackattack on February 14, 2007, 10:08:19 PM
Thank you again, Zack. I had long suspected there was stuff out there that was never published that would seriously hurt Andersen's case. Of course, anyone writing a book in her favor is not going to use those things. Zack, how about you write a book telling the true story, and finally put this legend to rest?

Who would be my audience? People who don't understand that the odds of Anna Anderson being anyone other than FS are roughly the same as the world being flat...and seem to think that finding or not finding a birth certificate would change that? .

 For example, I was discussing the comments made regarding John Klier having "several items of interest" that were not included in his book which led him to "speculate that Gertrude and several of the other children may have been from the second marriage" . Well, when I inquired what this person believed these "items of interest" were she replied..."documents". Well, she had earlier made it clear that Gertrude's birth was "undocumented". So, was Gertrude's birth at this point undocumented or were there documents relating to it? If so, then it's not undocumented! Was it a letter? Court document? What?  It just didn't make any sense . Well, she wasn't very pleased when I asked that question, it was very funny, as the question is quite harmless ..I"m just glad I've never used my real first or last name here...or my  online death notice might appear! ;D 

 These people are free to believe what they want,  they're a small minority, and I can care less as I have the answer. And am not really interested in researching further. . I just  ignore the rest.

However, there are people that are interested in this topic and would like to learn, and don't want to just spin their wheels. So that's why I think it would be great to have an archive section for Anna Anderson if MP Remy is interested. Imagine all the questions that could be answered for those who want to learn!  So, I've forewarded all the contact information for MP Remy, Julian Nott, and the Schankowsky family to the FA. It really is up to him, but the poor man has so much else he has to deal with on this great website that I wouldn't be surprised  if he's not able to get around to it for awhile.

In the meantime, anyone who is interested in this topic should simply get on the internet and start researching. It really wasn't that difficult and it's all at your fingertips. I'll admit, I have an advantage over many, but it's not something that can't be overcome. The internet is free for most!  Just don't engage in "celebrity" worship, keep in positive, and you'll be fine.   

Good luck everyone. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Forum Admin on February 15, 2007, 09:06:09 AM
I indeed have been forwarded the contact information for the Sch. famiily and Remy.  For the sake of these people's privacy, rather than post them here publicly, I will ask anyone seriously interested to contact me and I will, as I have been given permission, give them this contact information.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Cornholio on February 15, 2007, 02:07:27 PM
Maybe it isn't such a good idea to have a lot of random people bugging these guys. And who knows who might misquote them and we'd never know?  FA, how about if you gather the info yourself and write a piece for the Time Machine? I'm sure it would be interesting and helpful.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 08:09:45 PM
Jesus Christ?! Was AA really so crazy that she would stab herself in the foot with a bayonet??? lol ???
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: zackattack on June 07, 2007, 11:55:55 PM
Maybe it isn't such a good idea to have a lot of random people bugging these guys. And who knows who might misquote them and we'd never know?  FA, how about if you gather the info yourself and write a piece for the Time Machine? I'm sure it would be interesting and helpful.

Very true about the "random people" bugging these guys. That was what I was afraid of. So I figured I'd give the information to the FA and let him be the  judge on the subject. You know, I actually received alot of hate emails-all of which I found very funny- at my old email address chastising me for not posting someone's private address and phone number on this website for all the world to see. Would these people have liked it if I printed their private information on here? I think we all know the answer to that one.

   
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on June 16, 2007, 10:18:59 PM
FS and AA were the same person. Extensive genetic testing has proved this.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Bob_the_builder on June 17, 2007, 02:42:05 AM
FS and AA were the same person. Extensive genetic testing has proved this.
Well technically it proved she wasn't Anastasia. It can't prove she was Schanzkowska, only that they were related through the maternal line. Of course, since it rests on probablility, we can say it is probable and almost certain that she was.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 19, 2007, 06:20:42 PM
It's been awhile, shall we have a go?

Anastasia

(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/3150/picture4ay0.jpg)

Anna Anderson

(http://img164.exs.cx/img164/791/aa38ep.png)

(http://img153.exs.cx/img153/3800/aa31id.png)

Franziska Schanskowska

(http://img153.exs.cx/img153/961/fsoriginal8wx.png)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on June 20, 2007, 09:49:52 AM
The biggest difference and the one I can't get over is that mouth. Anastasia had some a small mouth with such small and delicately shaped lips, the top one turning up almost sharply, and Andersen has those very large, very thick Angelina Jolie lips and a wide mouth. None of the features are the same, and the chin is a very distinct difference too. Anastasia's was sort of longer, a bit rounded into a peak, and Andersen's was short, wide, and flat on the bottom. (Like Franziska there)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Obezyanka on June 20, 2007, 10:35:19 AM
I totally agree.  Those lips are way to thick I think later on she was sucking in her lips to make them appear thinner.  Also her eyes are not really the same shape.  The brow lines  look different too.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on June 20, 2007, 11:08:47 AM


And yet Professor Furtmayer (not sure of the spelling) examined 100s of pics of Anastasia and AA in the 1970s  for the court case and came to the conclusion that they were the same woman and that she was definitely not FS.  Admittedly there is only pic of FS and it has been retouched so he didn't have much to compare there, but how do you explain his findings?   How about posting more pics of AA and GDA?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on June 20, 2007, 02:25:03 PM
If Annie was really as convinced by the DNA evidence why raise this hoary old chestnut again?

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 20, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
If Annie was really as convinced by the DNA evidence why raise this hoary old chestnut again?

Phil Tomaselli


It was brought up in another thread by a new member and I didn't want to derail the thread. I also didn't want to bring forth one of the old threads that contained fights and pictures that no longer show up.

The biggest difference and the one I can't get over is that mouth. Anastasia had some a small mouth with such small and delicately shaped lips, the top one turning up almost sharply, and Andersen has those very large, very thick Angelina Jolie lips and a wide mouth. None of the features are the same, and the chin is a very distinct difference too. Anastasia's was sort of longer, a bit rounded into a peak, and Andersen's was short, wide, and flat on the bottom. (Like Franziska there)

Exactly. Their facial bone structure isn't even the same.

I totally agree.  Those lips are way to thick I think later on she was sucking in her lips to make them appear thinner.

Yeah, like the ones on Kurth's site, LOL, that's mostly what they are! If you look at the original pics of her taken after she was pulled from the canal but before her claim started, you'll see she looks NOTHING like Anastasia, and much too old to be the eighteen and a half AN would have been at the time. She didn't start acting and biting her lips and posing in ways trying to match up with AN pics until after her claim was in full swing.

 
Quote
Also her eyes are not really the same shape.  The brow lines  look different too.

Yes, they are. Anastasia's eyes were smaller and more heavily lidded than AA's big bulging eyes.



And yet Professor Furtmayer (not sure of the spelling) examined 100s of pics of Anastasia and AA in the 1970s  for the court case and came to the conclusion that they were the same woman and that she was definitely not FS.  Admittedly there is only pic of FS and it has been retouched so he didn't have much to compare there, but how do you explain his findings?   

I hate to be a taker of conspiracy theories, but the only thing I can think of is he was 'paid off' or influenced by someone in hopes of a payoff if she won any money, or perhaps half blind, drunk, using faulty equipment or just plain mistaken? Even a legally blind person can see the bone structure doesn't match up and none of the features are the same.You know one thing that really made me notice how the features aren't the same is getting older. When I was a teenager and wanted to believe in AA, I used to think that people looked drastically different when they got older, this fueled partly by TV shows that switch actors for the 'young' and 'old' character who don't look anything alike (like LeVar Burton and John Amos both playing Kunta Kinte in Roots, they look nothing alike!) Now that I'm older, and I can see that, like my old classmates, people who are now middle aged, even if they're now fat, or wrinkled or have lost or changed their hair still don't look that much different than they did as teens because their features and bone structure remain the same. Now I can really look at those pics of AA and AN and say HOW could I EVER have thought they were anything alike? Youth and wishful thinking is all, I guess.

 Are you sure it was the 1970's? The court case was over by the 60's, what was he doing it for?

Quote
How about posting more pics of AA and GDA?

You asked for it! I'll see what I have. I was actually hoping others would post, since I lost much of my collection when my old computer crashed. Everyone please let us see what you have.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2007, 04:10:59 PM
 I shall repeat, once again: We do not know what FS looked like in order to compare her with one or one thousand photographs of AA ."  Why?  Because none of us, as far as I know,  have ever seen an untouched photo of FS.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2007, 05:06:51 PM
Follow my quote and it will take  you to one of the threads where this has been discussed:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSManSumBK1.jpg)

...[in part]....

Quote
Greg King's post #132:
 ...[in part]....
>> 
  
As to the FS photo: All I can say is that there is no known unretouched version of it-the one posted here has been examined by a number of experts over the years and been shown to have been heavily drawn over, the hairline changed, the lips altered, etc., presumably to heighten the appearance to AA.  If we had an unretouched photo of FS it would be useful, but we don't.  
  
Greg King<<  

As to Greg's statement being old [out of date],  I believe his statement still stands as accurate since he certainly saw Annie's two white dot photograph and probably others before anyone brought any copies of it here to this forum.

There are no unretouched photographs of FS known to the public a this time.

The one Annie is showing has two white dotes in the hair.  This is one of the earlier copies because the photographer making the copy may have had lent on his slide which created the two white does, therefore, this one can be traced back to this particular copy.  Some think the lint may not have been lent at all but smudges of something used when a copy was retouched before being copied again...

The German courts had an expert who studied all of these photographs and he gave his report to the judges upon months of research during AA's trial.

I am not sure what Annie means when she said that she found her photograph.

The one above I found in the FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold which was published in 1976.  This one can be traced  back to the photographer who copied it because his has the two white dotes in FS's hair.  

The Wengenders produced several other photographs of FS because it was suppose to have shown some dress.... during the German court trial of AA.  But these photographs were proven by the court's experts to have been tampered --everything from buttons to who knows what was drawn into those photographs....

Helen,  there is no need to call my remarks as being sinister.  Facts are facts.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 20, 2007, 05:48:12 PM
Bear, the pic you posted is not retouched. It may be a weak, faded COPY but it's not retouched. What could anyone have done to it? It's so blurry!

Compare: faded unretouched copy of FS photo on left, retouched on right. Big difference.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/redo2.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 20, 2007, 06:00:18 PM
Now for some feature comparisons:

Chin: AN's is longer and goes into  a deep oval shape. AA's is blunt and flat across the bottom

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanjaw.jpg)

Face forward:

AA: big, bulging eyes, full lips, wide nose. AN: thin lips, heavily lidded eyes, more narrow nose

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanfront.jpg)

(http://members.tripod.com/~Pharaoh30/2anas.gif)

Noses and the infamous ears: AA's ears don't look the same to me!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanside.jpg)

Here you can really see a difference in the noses, and note AA biting her lips and hiding her jawline!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaannoses.jpg)

Look at those huge lips and eyes! Nothing like AN's! I guess the person who made this marked through the nose because it was so big and bulbous looking and nothing like AN's!

(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7256/anrq8.png)


Now take another look at those lips! VERY full, and look at the top one, straight across

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)


and compare to AN's delicate almost Betty Boop top lip shape:

(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/3150/picture4ay0.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2007, 06:05:30 PM
Knowing full well what you'd [Annie] say next,  I went looking for the old thread which would have the answers  which were  posted by a person who knew a great deal about  old photopraphs,  the process of retouching and how much a photographer/ artist could change a photo.  Couldn't find it.  When I find it,  I'll post it here so you can go and read the other posts.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 20, 2007, 06:15:13 PM
Now let's go back to this beauty:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)

This was taken in 1920 soon after she was fished out of the canal, but before she started pretending to be AN. She wasn't yet biting her lips or trying to pose like AN, and what you see is a very rough woman who looks nothing like AN. Her face is scarred, most likely from the schrapnel from that grenade explosion. Look at the profile of that nose! Sooo not AN's! The big lips and big eyes! The hairline and part matching FS's!

Another thing to look at here: look how OLD she looks! She (FS) was 23-24 here, and when someone told her she looked over 30 she became upset and said "no, not so very old." Remember that AN would have been only 18 and a half in Feb. 1920! Even though FS looks like a terrible careworn 23, there's no way that face is 18!!



Look here, this is one of my all time favorite lip biters!!   :P

(http://www.maragaleazzi.com/ita/img/anastasia/anna%20anderson.jpg)

For more lip biters and pics obviously posed to copy the real AN, see Kurth's site! It's loaded with them, and they make me laugh! :D

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2007, 06:28:46 PM
Kurth's photo is not the original but a copy of a copy which, I believe, he thinks is a liken image of  the original,  as did I,  until someone, I believe it was Helen, about the white smuges (china white??).....

Kurth's site shows 3 images. The leftmost image on his site (the grainy, contrasty one) is the original and does not appear to be retouched. The image of FS shown above is described as "three times retouched, as submitted in Pierre Gilliard and Konstantin Savitch’s La fausse Anastasie (Paris, Payot, 1929)."

Problems with the highlights and shading on the forehead are clearly visible. It looks as if there are cast shadows from foliage.

How accurate the retouched image is depends on the skill, experience, and training of the artist. If the artist was trained in a forensic lab, the retouching would be as accurate as possible. If trained in art and photography, there would be a skewing towards artistic or pleasing results. There would also be a problem if the artist used photographs of AA for reference.

The image used in the documentary appears to be the retouched photograph. But it is also possible that the original image was enhanced (there are several image enhancement services, including the FBI labs), and the retouched photograph is accurate.

Quote
Today, there are even simple software for drawing and photographs that can turn a human face into a face of a lion which is the same kind of software used for movies these days.
This called morphing. However, what is being shown in this documentary is a simple dissolve, a transition from one image to another; a fade-out, fade-in with two scenes overlapping. Dissolves like the one shown are often used in film, eg. when a character is played by actors of different ages.

Quote
the distance between the two eyes and the mouth
I wish I had seen the program. If anyone knows who did the analysis I can probably find out a bit more.

In computer-based facial recognition systems, approximately 80 nodes (points or vertices in graphics systems) are used. Most 2D facial recognition systems require at least 14 nodes for a match. It doesn't look like they used such software, but the documentary may simply have avoided getting too technical.

2D facial recognition systems still have problems with differences in poses and lighting. As you can see, AA's face is tilted downwards very slightly, which could cause problems because of foreshortening, depending on the algorithms used.


All the  formal sittings of the Royal Family were done my professionals, who or may not have "improved"  the  different photographs.   I'd rather use the family  browie camera kind-of photos  to compare to anyone who was/is a claimant.

Since I don't think AA was GD Anastasia,  I find no need to comment on  the comparison of photographs between  AA and GD Anastasia.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 20, 2007, 06:36:31 PM
Bear, if you REALLY don't believe AA was AN, why do you always go out of your way to try your best to discredit the FS picture? Even fuzzy, the face shape matches up better than any of AN. If you REALLY don't believe AA was AN, then why not help me post pics that show how they look nothing alike? Despite your lip service, Bear, I have never in the three years I've been on this forum seen you post one blasted thing AGAINST AA's claim. It's always in favor, even if indirectly. If you REALLY want 'the truth' it's as plain as the nose on her face.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 20, 2007, 09:14:40 PM
I think this pic more than any other really emphasizes just how unlike AN AA's features really were. She's really openly exposed them all here.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/sonotan.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/amouth.jpg)

Here's another matchup I found:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on June 20, 2007, 09:23:26 PM
Bear, the pic you posted is not retouched. It may be a weak, faded COPY but it's not retouched. What could anyone have done to it? It's so blurry!

Compare: faded unretouched copy of FS photo on left, retouched on right. Big difference.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/redo2.jpg)


You voiced that the pic was not retouched.  This was not correct.    The  reason I posted was to make sure people are aware of  facts behind the photo.   Gave them some of the old threads.  Now,  people can make up their own minds.


AGRBear



Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on June 21, 2007, 04:23:31 AM

Annie said "Are you sure it was the 1970's? The court case was over by the 60's, what was he doing it for?"

Firstly  the tests were done in 1977 - I checked last night.

  "I hate to be a taker of conspiracy theories, but the only thing I can think of is he was 'paid off' or influenced by someone in hopes of a  payoff if she won any money, or perhaps half blind, drunk, using faulty equipment or just plain mistaken"

Secondly I really find this appalling - Professor Furtmayr was an expert in the field of forensics and the PIK test which is supposedly as reliable as fingerprints and was used in the German courts.  You may disagree with him but to suggest he was "paid off" or "drunk" is outrageous and in my opinion, borders on being libellous.

I'm bowing out of this discussion.  I have no problem with anyone having a difference of opinion but to trash people like this is unacceptable and I won't be participating any further.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 21, 2007, 09:19:37 AM

Annie said "Are you sure it was the 1970's? The court case was over by the 60's, what was he doing it for?"

Firstly  the tests were done in 1977 - I checked last night.

  "I hate to be a taker of conspiracy theories, but the only thing I can think of is he was 'paid off' or influenced by someone in hopes of a  payoff if she won any money, or perhaps half blind, drunk, using faulty equipment or just plain mistaken"

Secondly I really find this appalling - Professor Furtmayr was an expert in the field of forensics and the PIK test which is supposedly as reliable as fingerprints and was used in the German courts.  You may disagree with him but to suggest he was "paid off" or "drunk" is outrageous and in my opinion, borders on being libellous.

Don't make me laugh! You AA supporters have said much worse about the DNA scientists! How is it okay to doubt  and disrespect and accuse them and not this guy? Oh that's right because you like what he says! And I never said any of those thing were fact, hell I don't know, I was just giving hypothetical and possible reasons why he could have gotten it wrong, because he was wrong.

Quote
I'm bowing out of this discussion.  I have no problem with anyone having a difference of opinion but to trash people like this is unacceptable and I won't be participating any further.



Then I hope you will not 'trash' the DNA scientists or the members of the family who denied AA anymore.
It's so amazing how AA fans can completely trash Olga A., Gilliard, the DNA scientists, then Queen, etc., but when you question one of their heroes, it suddenly becomes 'libelous' and 'unnacceptable.'  ::)

It's so sad these things always degrade into a fight. Why does it have to be that way? I guess because the stuff I'm posting is so damning to AA and those who want to believe her and want to make others believe her don't like that, so they have to get snitty over it. (not talking about you, Bear.) The very fact that they lash out like that only proves the desperation for a long lost cause.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on June 21, 2007, 11:49:04 AM
Who's fighting?  Not me.   

I personally have never said anything derogatory about DNA scientists, the Romanov family, my Queen  or any of those who denied AA's identity. Indeed, I am not the one making unfounded accusations.  Everyone is entitled to their personal opinion and  I can respect that even if I disagree with them.  However,   I do not think personal attacks - either on myself or anybody else - are necessary.

Incidentally, I don't think I have ever expressed on this board whether I believe her to be Anastasia or not. I find the whole subject fascinating and am prepared to listen to any  reasoned viewpoint but I am certainly not desperate about this issue, one way or the other.  You have decided what my viewpoint is simply because I objected to some unfounded  comments you made about someone who probably is no longer around to defend himself.  You may disagree with him and that's fine, but calling him names will not help and also doesn't help us come up with a valid reason why he got the results he did.   Perhaps you would like to try and answer that question.

That's it.  I really am out of here now. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on June 21, 2007, 12:57:04 PM
This is a note for newbies:

This kind of posturing between Annie and I is nothing new. 

She keeps repeating incorrectly   that  she  thinks that I think AA is GD Anastasia because I correct her  errors.   So, everyone once in awhile I  have to turn around and explain:  I don't care where the truth takes me,  I  am just enjoying the journey.

Hey, everyone,  this is gonna be a long long day.  Enjoy every minute.  I know I will.

Now,  where is that honey jar.....

AGRBear



Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 21, 2007, 02:15:34 PM
Oh for Pete's sake. Why did I ever believe we could have a rational, civil discussion on this around here? I would really like to hear from people who actually want to comment and discuss this rationally instead of trying to start something, or the thread  might as well be closed.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Alixz on June 21, 2007, 10:22:32 PM
Annie:

Your poor old dead horse. 

I always think that its the nose that gives her away.  No matter how old we get, I don't think our nose changes shape. (After childhood, anyway).  And in some of the retouched photos, she may look younger, but in the earlier photos, she does look like she is a very careworn and scarred 23 year old who looks about 30!

"Just my ten cents, my two cents is free."   Eminem.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on June 22, 2007, 09:27:54 AM
Yes you only have to look at the photos to realise Anna Anderson was a total fraud. Peter Kurth should be ashamed of himself for writing such rubbish. His "book" should be classified and put in the comedy section.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Holly on June 23, 2007, 09:26:34 AM
I've always thought AA and AN had completely different faces. I agree with Annie when she says something might have been going on with Professor Furtmayr's results. There's no way a so-called professor could've come up with AA being AN after examining their faces when even we can plainly see that they're different people.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on June 23, 2007, 10:05:03 AM
Amazing how Botox existed in Ekaterinburg in July 1918. A great deal must have been used to transform the lips of the corpse of Grand Duchess Anastasia to give her the look of Anna Anderson. I wonder whether he was the same surgeon who worked on Angelina Jolie or Ivana Trump? I've heard of surgery to make somebody look younger, but surgery to make somebody look older? That's a new one!! Dr.Frankenstein must have been the surgeon. He was so clever to happen to be there just at the right time with all his special apparatus to place the electric charges on the dead body of Grand Duchess Anastasia. I wonder how many thousand volts it took to bring her back from the dead? I guess he must have switched her DNA at the same time. This guy is really amazing. Amazing how the Bolsheviks didn't discover his surgery and apparatus when supposedly they visited the house across the road where the dead body of Grand Duchess Anastasia, who just happened to be carried out of the Ipatiev House past many sober and violent armed individuals. Heck I'm surprised this Tschiakovsky guy didn't smuggle out the whole family for Frankenstein to work on as after all the Bolshevik guards were so inept they couldn't see one body so I guess they wouldn't have missed the rest either!!! l I wonder whether there were any problems with the electricity supplies in the region in Frankenstein's attempt to bring Anastasia back to life in the form of Anna Anderson? Frankenstein being present in Ekaterinburg is just as probable as Grand Duchess Anastasia surviving. Perhaps there is room for a new novel in all of this? It probably would be more believable than Kurth's ridiculous excuse for a book. What I want to know is was Elvis Presley really Alexis and was Marilyn Monroe really Anastasia? I guess it is just as probable as Anna Anderson being Grand Duchess Anastasia. What a joke it all is.   
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on June 24, 2007, 11:56:52 AM
Holly you are exactly right!

I can't believe there are still people going on about this! There's a raving fanatic who PMs me every day saying why the DNA doesn't matter after all the other 'proof' ::) and spews on and on about this or that person said that, blah blah. I guess he doesn't have the guts to post his comedy here on the open forum.


Dmitri, your idea for a Frankenstein crossover is genius! It's hilarious, I laughed so hard! You should seriously write that, even as a skit. It's funny, and as you say, just as believeable as AA's ridiculous story! Like you say, it is all a joke! 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Helen on June 25, 2007, 02:01:08 PM
I too have found references to "Shilling" which is probably a phonetic spelling of the name. SVCs did find employment in Imperial Russia and often as ADC's or diplomats. Maria Pav the younger mentions a "Captain Schilling" who served her father, Grand Duke Paul, in this capacity. ...
Searching for information on people with the surname  of "Schilling", I came across the post quoted above. This thread has not been active for quite a while, and my question is off-topic,  but is it known whether this Schilling died in 1894 or the first half of 1895?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Amanda_Misha on June 28, 2007, 06:21:15 PM
I do not know so that but its history does not convince to me,
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2007, 10:36:53 AM
I too have found references to "Shilling" which is probably a phonetic spelling of the name. SVCs did find employment in Imperial Russia and often as ADC's or diplomats. Maria Pav the younger mentions a "Captain Schilling" who served her father, Grand Duke Paul, in this capacity. ...
Searching for information on people with the surname  of "Schilling", I came across the post quoted above. This thread has not been active for quite a while, and my question is off-topic,  but is it known whether this Schilling died in 1894 or the first half of 1895?

I am curious,  how many German-Russian links did you find when searching for the name "Schilling"?

Could you tell us, again,  why  this person is important to AA's story,  please.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Helen on June 29, 2007, 01:41:05 PM
This Captain Schilling may not have anything to do with AA's story at all. It's actually the reference to Grand Duke Paul that stirred my interest, as I also came across the name of Schilling in connection with Grand Duke Paul in an entirely different context recently and am looking for information on this Schilling.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on June 30, 2007, 06:14:05 AM
Thanks for the reply.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 02, 2007, 10:56:53 PM
Kurth's book on Anna Anderson was totally ridiculous and academically extremely dubious. It was never objective. His Tsar book was at least credible. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Foxglove on July 03, 2007, 02:19:35 AM
This may have been mentioned already on other threads, but Anastasia had close-set eyes, while Anna's eyes were wide-set. It's something that stands out as being rather obvious, once a person discerns the difference.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on July 03, 2007, 11:26:35 AM
Oh yes, among all her other features. She was nothing like Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: lexi4 on July 05, 2007, 01:49:02 PM
First,
dimtri, are you an Angelina Jolie fan?  :)

I have never been able to see the resemblance. I'm not good at that kind of thing.
Lexi
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on July 05, 2007, 02:10:33 PM
I think the Jolie references are to FS/AA's fat lips.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on July 05, 2007, 02:14:04 PM
Here's an interesting new article on him.

http://www.readthehook.com/stories/2007/07/05/COVER-jackManahan-I.rtf.aspx

It appears he and his beloved Franziska were weirder than we even imagined.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: mr_harrison75 on July 05, 2007, 06:57:44 PM
To be frank, I don't know what to think of Anna Anderson; I know DNA tests said that she wasn't related to the Romanovs, but something keeps nagging me; how did she know so much things about the Imperial Family? Even rather secret things? That is strange, to say the least...

Perhaps someone coached her, but who? And for what purpose? To cover the real Anastasia? I'm intrigued by Heinrich Kleibenzetl's testimony...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 05, 2007, 09:26:59 PM
To be frank, I don't know what to think of Anna Anderson; I know DNA tests said that she wasn't related to the Romanovs, but something keeps nagging me; how did she know so much things about the Imperial Family? Even rather secret things? That is strange, to say the least...[/b]

Nio it really isn't. There were a lot of people who escaped Russia who had known the family, including her biggest 'supporters' the Botkin kids.

Secret things? Like what? And who would know these 'secrets' to verify if they were right or not, with the whole family dead? Ever think of that? There was never a person going 'oh you're right!' If it was secret, who would have known who lived to tell? And if it wasn't so secret, it could easily have been found in another source, such as the books written in the early 20's.

Quote
Perhaps someone coached her, but who? And for what purpose? To cover the real Anastasia?

I can never believe the answer isn't obvious. Besides all the Russian emigres' who came to see her for years, the Botkin, who had played with the royal children and was with her until they were split at Ekaterinburg, and who championed her cause, took her to NYC and got her into the courts, seems a very likely suspect. The only mystery left in this story is who helped her, and when, how, and why. Money was most likely a motivator. AA supporters love to say those who denied her were out for money, but how can anyone deny the possibility that those who supported her were hoping for money if she won? There were rumors of billions on Romanov fortunes at the time. They didn't pan out, but at the time of the trials, people believed it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: mr_harrison75 on July 05, 2007, 10:32:29 PM
Ok, I understand some of your points, Annie, but I disagree on one thing; the Botkin children weren't that close to the Imperial Family; they didn't see them that often. Most of the precious few little things they knew was when their father was telling them, and of their own visits. Gleb and Tatyana probably knew them well enough by sight and through a few conversations; enough to be friends of the Imperial Family, but not intimates...

About secrets, I was mainly thinking of Ernst Von Hesse's visit in Russia in 1916. Almost nobody outside the Imperial Family knew about it! Strange that AA did...

Now, I'm not saying that AA was Anastasia Nikolaevna, just that there are strange things in that case. And I can't help but notice how virulent the reactions are, pour ou contre...it's unsettling, to say the least.

I'd like to know what you think about Heinrich Kleibenzetl's testimony...

Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Greenowl on July 06, 2007, 06:38:09 AM
Mr Harrison, I agree with you that there are strange (indeed uncanny) things in the AA case and most especially that the virulent reactions, both pour ou contre, are EXTREMELY unsettling and indeed at times almost offensive.

In another post in a different thread in this section I made a similar comment just a few minutes ago: "Having read many of the posts, especially in the thread entitled “Opinion poll, survivors or no” it is my opinion that the vast majority of Forum Members believe, as I do, that nobody survived the tragic events of the night of 17th. July. I have nether the time nor the patience to evaluate the responses in that thread, but it would be an interesting exercise, as I think it would show that over 80% of respondents are convinced that all members of the IF died that night and of the remainder, most suggest that although somebody may have survived or been moved to another place before the massacre, they probably died or were killed shortly afterwards, thus leaving very few who, at least in my interpretation, claim that someone survived.

What is curious is that although there were many claimants, only AA managed to capture the public imagination and more importantly, bamboozle the German legal system and was not finally revealed as a hoax until the advent of  DNA testing. HOW she managed to do that is fascinating, indeed to some degree uncanny, and I think that is what interests most people. However, discussing these aspects of AA is far removed from claiming that AA was AN, therefore I cannot understand the virulence of some people or the constant need to reiterate, often in the sharpest of tones, that AA was not AN…..and indeed, for the (in my view very small) minority who hold fast to the false belief that AA was who she claimed to be, such behaviour is likely to encourage rather than put them off and change their perspective" (End of quote from post in other thread....apologies if anyone is bored by the repetition).

Another point that interests me is where the name "Anna Anderson" originated from. I have never heard any reference to or explaination of where it came from. Did she choose it herself or did somebody choose it for her?? I would be interested to hear about the origin of the name!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2007, 07:51:58 AM
Ok, I understand some of your points, Annie, but I disagree on one thing; the Botkin children weren't that close to the Imperial Family; they didn't see them that often. Most of the precious few little things they knew was when their father was telling them, and of their own visits. Gleb and Tatyana probably knew them well enough by sight and through a few conversations; enough to be friends of the Imperial Family, but not intimates...

Have you seen his childrens' book that came out in the last few years? It's a book of drawings and stories of an imaginary animal country. In the forward of the book, it describes how Gleb was close to the three youngest Romanov kids, and how they joined in the games he made with the animal land. They were also with the family up until they were moved to the Ipatiev house, so this could have explained some of the 'amazing' 'memories' of Tobolsk that 'no one knew.' Also, if you look at the list of servants taken into captivitiy with the family, there were many more than we usually hear mentioned. There were about 40. Of those, only 3 were executed with the family, leaving many more to live to perhaps tell the tale. The court consisted of 1500 people. In addition to them, their families, spouses and kids, likely knew things about the inside of the palace, and the family. So there were literally numerous people who 'knew things' who could have told her, either intentionally or incidently. But I can't ignore the fact that her claim, and her fame, took a hyperspace leap into world fame and the courts after Botkin came on the scene. He certainly did seem to be some kind of mastermind. And remember, he was a very creative writer ;)

Quote
About secrets, I was mainly thinking of Ernst Von Hesse's visit in Russia in 1916. Almost nobody outside the Imperial Family knew about it! Strange that AA did...

There is NO proof that ever really happened. We've had whole threads about this before, and the AA has said there is no evidence of it. So this is another thing about the 'memories', a, some may have been false, and b, some are unverifyable because those involvded were dead, but because of that, we can't take them as 'facts' that she 'knew.'

Quote
Now, I'm not saying that AA was Anastasia Nikolaevna, just that there are strange things in that case. And I can't help but notice how virulent the reactions are, pour ou contre...it's unsettling, to say the least.

My reactions come from a long history of AA supporters who have been very nasty, determined to keep dragging the story back up, and refuse to let you discuss how FS did it without throwing back in 'but what about ....' as if she was still possibly AN. If anyone wants to discuss how FS did it without bringing the AA/AN spector into it, I'd LOVE that. In fact, I have tried to start threads on that topic, but they are always derailed by those bringing up reasons why she wasn't FS ::)

Why can't we discuss how FS and her supporters pulled it off, and who they may have been, without the  'what if' or saying things are 'nagging' at you, because those things make it appear the poster still believes, despite the DNA, that she still may have been AN, and I always feel the need to set the record straight so no newbies will be unnecessarily misled into believing in the Easter Bunny when he doesn't exist. Kids may think 'how did the Bunny sneak into my room without me hearing him?'{ your parents did it quietly}. or 'how does he go everywhere in one night, and how does he carry all those baskets in his little paws?' (he doesn't exist) This is how the 'what if's of the AA case are now, we KNOW she wasn't real, so there have to be logical explainations for it all. I offer them, and people continue to attack and contradict and take offense to them, so this makes me think some people still want her to be AN and don't want to mystery to end. (though I think finding out the details behind her act is still a big interesting story, and would love to see a book written on it. One thing everyone needs to consider is that there will likely NEVER be solid proof of any fraud, because people don't leave paper trails of stuff like that. So all we can do is try to piece together what likely happened, and I feel I have reasonably done that. Even some criminal cases are based on what likely happened when there is no hard evidence, and juries often accept the story as so likely they can put the case to bed. I am hoping one day to be able to do this with everyone who pops by asking 'how did she do it.'



Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2007, 07:53:26 AM
Quote
I'd like to know what you think about Heinrich Kleibenzetl's testimony...

Thanks!  :)

Personally I don't believe it. For one, he was ONE person, no one else backs him up. How did this Austrian get involved? IMO it was something set up by those who wanted to come up with some kind of proof of AA's cart story. One thing I don't think hardly anyone realizes is that most people in those days likely didn't know one Grand Duchess from the other, especially after they were in common clothes in Siberia. Put yourself back in that time-and place, remember, this is Siberia, not St. Petersburg. There was no TV, no media, no internet, no supermarket tabloids. How would these people see the family? I'm sure everyone had a picture of the Tsar, and maybe Alexandra too, but for those in outlying areas, family pics were probably rare, newspapers didn't have that many, some towns' papers didn't have the ability to print pics at all. I'd say the tercentennary family pic may have been the only shot most of them saw of the whole family, if even that. Most books, IF anyone could afford one, usually only had the Tsar himself in them. I have seen old Russian books in bookstores dating to the early 1900's, and the only pics were of the Tsar himself. Alexei as Tsarevich was likely better known, but those four girls, all looking something alike and all about the same age, were probably indistinguishable to all but the most fanatical of followers. I don't even think most of the Bolsheviks knew for sure which girl was which when they shot them and disposed of the bodies, and I don't believe anyone living across the street could tell one bloody body from another. On top of all that, we know the family was all killed by the Bolsheviks, because there is testimony in detail on it. There are descrepencies on what happened to each girl, and that is food for conspiracy theories, but I'd bet it's because of what I just explained, that they really couldn't tell the girls apart. Someone even said they mistook Demidova for Alexandra. See, they didn't know them well, and bloody, they were even harder to identify. It's likely not one of those people could have picked Anastasia out of a lineup of the GD's. So I don't believe anyone would have known AN, or that anyone would have gotten AN over there.

The injuries to the body described also don't match up with the Bolshevik reports of how Anastasia was killed (bayonet to the face, little other injury) .This guy's story just doesn't add up, and it's not true.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2007, 08:05:25 AM

What is curious is that although there were many claimants, only AA managed to capture the public imagination and more importantly, bamboozle the German legal system and was not finally revealed as a hoax until the advent of  DNA testing. HOW she managed to do that is fascinating, indeed to some degree uncanny, and I think that is what interests most people. .

I believe she was able to take her case further because she had more supporters and coaches behind her the others never had. As I said in the last response, I would WELCOME a discussion of how she and her supporters pulled off the charade, but every time this is brought up, it always (and I've been here 3 years, you should see the threads!) ends up with people saying 'but what about this' and every time you offer an explaination, they don't believe it, so it's obvious they don't want an answer, they want the mystery to be kept alive, so maybe AA can still be AN. IF we can leave that possibility out of it, it would be a very interesting and fun discussion, and I'd like to do it. I have always wanted to to it, but it always gets hijacked by the spectre of AA/AN. And talk about vicious you should see some of their posts when those who support AA as AN get mad. There's a good reason many have been banned. And many have come back under various aliases, trying to drag the whole mess back up again every time it dies down. So yeah maybe I have a chip on my shoulder every time I hear "I believe the DNA BUT 'how did she know'..... It's NEVER anyone wanting to explain how she managed to pull of the fraud, it's always someone wanting to bring the AA/AN debate back to life. If this time is different, let's give it a try.


Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Greenowl on July 06, 2007, 08:40:47 AM
Well said Annie! I too would welcome a a discussion of how she and her supporters pulled off the charade, but WITHOUT a "hidden agenda" (i.e. using the discussion to "turn the tables" so to speak and attempting to prove that the DNA results are invalid etc etc etc). As you rightly said, IF we can leave that possibility out, it would be a very interesting and fun discussion, as there are some really uncanny facts and odd coincidences that the other claimants don't appear to have had (which may be one of the reasons why they failed to muster so much support). One of the oddest coincidences seems to me to be the fact that AA dis not really look like the person she tried to impersonate (or believed herself to be). Anyway, I too HOPE that this time the discussion might be different, so let's give it a try (provided of course it does no count as cruelty to an already much abused dead horse).
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Greenowl on July 06, 2007, 08:44:31 AM
oopps! I noticed two typing errors in the above post but had posted the damn thing before I could amend them. Trust you understand what I am trying to say and apologies for the mistakes.
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2007, 09:32:53 AM
I hope we can have that discussion! Let's use the 'charade' thread, or there's another somewhere here called 'how Franziska did it.'

And about your errors, if you catch it within the first hour, you can edit/modify your post.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 08, 2007, 06:51:34 AM
Annie you are spot on. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Anna Anderson was a total fraud. The game is up and yet those suffering from some sort of disorder continue the boring old lies about AA being AN. Anderson had many unscrupulous backers behind her. She was just one of many imposters. Eugenia Smith was another who put out a book claiming to be Anastasia and was also a fraud. The sad thing about all of this is the great insult that is done to the real Grand Duchess Anastasia and her memory. DNA evidence is used every day, quite accurately, to convict criminals. Only those with criminal intent wish to not see it used. Those who deny Anastasia being a fraud quickly turn to personal abuse. It is always the way of those who are unable to accept they are wrong. Gleb Botkin was one of the greatest personal abusers once he realised his fraud had been discovered. That is why he sent abusive letters to the Grand Duchess Xenia and others. It is worth noting that Anderson continued her appalling behaviour even when living as a guest in the United States in 1928. Anderson lived for several months on Long Island with Mrs. William B. Leeds (born Princess Xenia Georgievna Romanova of Russia), a daughter of Grand Duke George Mihailovich of Russia and Princess Maria Georgievna of Greece and Denmark, until she was asked to leave. Prince Christopher of Greece described the stay, "She stayed with my niece, ... who showed her the greatest kindness, Then her treatment of the Grand Duchess Xiena, sister of the last Tsar, led to a quarrel with William Leeds, who turned her out of the house." Prince Christopher of Greece, stepfather of Leeds, reveals it all in his memoirs. The end result Prince Christopher of Greece is reviled as a 'liar' by the Anna Anderson supporters. When they can't cope with concrete evidence they then turn to abusing those who dare to reveal the lies.    

Prince Christopher of Greece commented further :
"Dozens of people who had known the Grand Duchess Anastasia were brought to see the girl in the hope that they might be able to identify her, but none of them could come to any definite conclusion. ... The poor girl was a pathetic figure in her loneliness and ill health, and it was comprehensible enough that many of those around her let their sympathy over-rule their logic. But at the same time there was little real evidence to substantiate her story. She was unable to recognise people whom the Grand Duchess Anastasia had known intimately, .."

Prince Felix Yussopov, husband of Princess Irina of Russia, daughter of Grand Duchess Xenia, wrote to Grand Duke Andrei about Anna Anderson, "I claim categorically that she is not Anastasia Nicolaievna, but just an adventuress, a sick hysteric and a frightful playactress. I simply cannot understand how anyone can be in doubt of this. If you had seen her, I am convinced that you would recoil in horror at the thought that this frightful creature could be a daughter of our Tsar ... These false pretenders ought to be gathered up and sent to live in a house somewhere."

Another relative of the real Anasatasia, Prince Rotislav Romanov, after the announcement of the DNA evidence, stated, "There has never been a shadow of a doubt. My father was raised with Anastasia, and this woman would never see him." Prince Rotislav's father was a first cousin of Anastasia. It is obvious Anderson didn't want to see him as she knew he would expose her to be the fraud she was.

It is interesting what two Russians said about Anderson as well :
Responsible for the initial discovery of the Romanov remains, Geli Ryabov and Alexander Advonin have no doubt that all of Nicholas II and Alexandra's family perished in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg. Commenting on the possibility that Anastasia may have survived in the guise of Anderson, Ryabov declared, "We have no instances of the Communists ever, anywhere, having mercy on anyone. If people understood that, it would not occur to them that Communists could let a member of the Emperor's family survive. It's simply impossible." Advodin went further, "All the people taken into Ipatiev's House were shot. I think Anna Anderson could be Anastasia, but only if Anastasia had not gone into that house. We know that everyone who went into that house was killed, including Anastasia." He went on to state "There are many Anastasia's and Alexeis out here, now and in the past. Now, I think, two Alexeis are alive. But if Alexei survived, there should be just one. But there are two of them and many more. There were more Anastasias. Anastasias children live here now, says one. She died in the fifties and was buried in Omsk. She was Anastasia Spiridovna. Anna Anderson was another pretender from the United States. Who is the real Anastasia? If Anastasia survived, there should be just one pretender, same with Alexei, So more than one means we here in Russia consider them all false."

Well done Annie. I know you have suffered abuse from these pathetic individuals. They deserve nothing but contempt for their deliberate attempt to pervert history.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 08, 2007, 07:13:54 AM
Manahan must have been very weird. Fancy someone marrying a woman old enough to be his mother who was obviously two cents short of the dollar. One wonders what sort of teacher he was. They both deserved each other in my opinion.  Fancy living the way they chose to. It is all bizarre but nothing about Anderson is not bizarre.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 08, 2007, 05:27:03 PM
Thank you. It's good to know there are people who can see exactly what's happening. I have suffered abuse for saying and suggesting things they don't want to hear. I am amazed at what a bogeyman I've become! On the 'other' forum, they are telling people how terrible I am. There used to be at least two or three names they mentioned, now I'm guilty of it all! :P They claim I have written all the bad articles on Amazon.com on two certain books, when I haven't written anything on that site. Now they are claiming I have written, or rewritten, or 'sabotaged' all wikipedia articles concerning AA, and I don't even have an account there! They accuse me of posting no sources, and when I do post them, they discredit them. They have accused me of lots of things I didn't do, especially one paranoid person in particular. I am all powerful in ways I never even imagined!  ::) I am the 'amazing Randy' of the AA story! All in their (simple) minds, where they must live in fantasy and hate those who intrude on their AA wonderland. I am actually kind of scared of them, they are so obsessed and see me as the ultimate enemy. And for what? For telling them AA isn't AN? How pathetic.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: mr_harrison75 on July 08, 2007, 08:57:55 PM
Thank you for your comments, Dmitri! Your arguments, and Annie's, are very clear and well articulated. I was a newbie concerning all things AA, so I didn't know what to think about her...  :)

To be frank, I didn't think that AA was Anastasia Nikolaevna, but there was strange things I was wondering where it was coming from, and how AA knew things...

Thank you, both of you!  :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 08, 2007, 09:20:44 PM
If you really want to discuss how she did it, join in the 'charade' thread. We are speculating on who helped her and how. We know someone did, because she wasn't Anastasia. There's no need for you to be confused or wonder about her, it's for sure, she was a fraud, the DNA proved it. Anything she 'knew' was told to her by somebody else, she wasn't there. And as I said before, too, who was around to verify the 'secret' things? The family was dead! So don't believe the hype.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on July 09, 2007, 10:14:25 AM
Thank you Dmitri for posting some quotes from relatives that I'd never read before. People who want the whole truth will never get it only from the books of AA supporters. There must be a ton of other information out there that's never been published because it doesn't make AA look good. I'd love to find it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: loulia on July 09, 2007, 04:25:21 PM
At the time the IF were alive, they were some kind of "stars" always at the top of tabloid, so I guess a lot of people knew a lot of details about them exactly like now, some people who have never meet their idol know almost everything about their lives and try to look the same as their idol.
May be it was the same for AA, may be she was some hystericall fan of the IF?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 10, 2007, 02:23:48 PM
Getting whiplash, again,  since this conversation is occuring on different threads at the same time.

Here is what I wrote over on the other thread about "charades"  and my dislike of posters who are calling other posters liers in  such general terms that it is difficult to know what the lie was , or if there was a lie,   and, if there was a lie ,   who the lier was,   [bear takes a deep breath and continues], so   without knowing the lie and what they lied about  no one can come to his or her defense,  which I think  is what is hoped by those who makes these kinds of statements saying there are lies being told.  Anway,  this is my post:

..[in part].....
....You have to worry about those who believe in Anna Anderson. They do anything to lie and defend their position to the extent that they cannot cope with anybody who does not support their form of compulsive obsessive disorder.
....

Since  I joined AP  I have met   posters who  continue to believe, poster who believed once upon a time AA was GD Anastasia,  and poster who never believed  it's possible that  AA was GD Anastasia.   Each one has their reasons  to believe what they do.  People like Peter Kurth,   who  knew AA  and researched this person, the life around her and  GD Anastasia,   saw a lot of  information and has met a lot of people,  believed  she was GD Anastasia up to the  DNA tests.  Far as I know,  he's never knowingly   given us misinformation.   But,  I think,  when he remembers her and goes over  all the information he found  he still has a difficult time thinking that she wasn't.... Is this so difficult to understand?  It should not be if  you are compassionate.  And,  I think it is just as important to remember that  the facts Kurth and the others found  should be held as facts.   And trying to twist the facts  to prove AA wasn't  GD Anastasia isn't  a smart  thing to do because it'll  turn around and get you right in the  behind because it'll make you out to be the one who looks foolish. 

This thread  isn't about us,  this is about a woman  who during her life, caused people to believe she was GD Anastasaia.    This is about  a woman  who touched many lives then and, now.   So,  it's never been about  us.

Although  I've never believed  AA was GD Anastasia,  I have to admit,  she has taken me on an interesting journey.

What a fastastic  tangled web  this woman,  Anna Anderson,  has created because her web  is still so strong that it catches us after all these years and the more we struggle to free ourselves it  just entangles most of us more and more....

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 10, 2007, 02:47:55 PM
Getting whiplash, again,  since this conversation is occuring on different threads at the same time.

Here is what I wrote over on the other thread about "charades"  and my dislike of posters who are calling other posters liers in  such general terms that it is difficult to know what the lie was , or if there was a lie,   and, if there was a lie ,   who the lier was,   [bear takes a deep breath and continues], so   without knowing the lie and what they lied about  no one can come to his or her defense,  which I think  is what is hoped by those who makes these kinds of statements saying there are lies being told. 

Bear I am not calling anyone in particular a liar, poster or anyone in AA's case. I am simply saying that there is a very high probability that a lot of what is said by person X or person Y *shhh* may not be the truth! This happens everywhere, all the time. Do you believe every single thing you hear your neighbors say? Stuff gets twisted, people make unintentional mistakes in detail, people lie to cover the butts of themselves and those they are involved with. So you cannot take every word and every quote as a 'fact' when it might not be! And since we know now that AA wasn't AN and was FS, we know which statements were wrong and who was either lying or mistaken. That's basic reasoning and common sense, IMO.

Here's an example:

Joe says he saw Tom at 7-11 last night at midnight, kissing Jim's wife.- This is a FACT that Joe said this, but does this mean it's a 'fact' that Tom really was at 7-11 last night with Jim's wife? All we have is his word. He may have been lying, or he may have been convinced he was right, but wrong about his identification of Tom....

Now suppose that Tom's wife Mary said he was home with her at midnight, watching Jay Leno. It's a FACT that she said it, but was she lying? How do we know who wast telling the truth, Joe or Mary?...

But Mary claims she has proof. Tom's car had been vandalized the night before, and he had called the police. The police had a 9-11 recording of Tom's call, traced to Tom's home phone number, and you can hear the Jay Leno show in the background. Now you'd know for sure that Mary was telling the truth, and that Joe was either lying or mistaken. (unless you are a conspiracy theorist, or enjoy wild goose chases, this would be enough proof)

Also, Jim declared that his wife was not even in town that night, as she had been shipped to Iraq with her National Guard unit a week before. There are records that she left the country exactly when Jim said she did, and he has long distance calls  complete with voice messages tracing to the base in Iraq. So now we know that Joe was either lying and trying to stir up gossip, or it was an honest case of mistaken identity. Either way, it wasn't as it seemed, so while it may be a FACT Joe made the statement, his quote did not turn out to be a 'fact' after all.


Here's something that happened to me. I got a bill for several thousand dollars from a sleep lab, saying my husband was treated there. But he wasn't! They claimed our insurance denied the claim, and we owed the money. I told them they had the wrong person and they were mistaken.The people on the phone swore that they had the right guy, and they had his personal info. Yet my husband had been sent to Jacksonville FL for his job and had been gone over a week by the date they gave me! He was staying in a condo and working with six other guys, and there was proof of this in his work records. He had not returned to VA to take this sleep lab and snuck back. Finally after several days of harassment, they finally discovered they had a patient with the same name and similiar ss# and health ins. co. and they had billed the wrong person. They weren't lying, but they made a mistake. It was a FACT they said my husband was treated at the sleep lab, they had the paperwork and everything, but they turned out to be WRONG. IT HAPPENS!

You know, stuff like this happens every day in court cases. People do say things, but they're not necessarily correct, some are right, some are wrong. We have to find out who was wrong. In the case of AA, we know who was wrong, it was th pro AA people. This does not mean they were necessarily lying, but it does mean they were wrong. So just because somebody says something and you can quote it, it's not always a 'fact'.



I know this is going to roll right off your cotton wool head and you're not going to get it and make some kind of comment that has nothing to do with it, but I hope somebody will see my point.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 11, 2007, 08:23:44 AM
Annie don't waste your breath trying to convince him as he does not wish to accept what all serious historians recognise and that is that Anna Anderson was a complete fraud.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: KiKi on July 12, 2007, 10:58:51 PM
I have always wanted AA to be AN.  I mean what a great story!  The romantic in me still wants to believe it.

In the last few years I have read many books and checked out many many sites with pics of them both and I have to admit, there is really not much possibility that they are the same person.

I used to want to think that the difference in the faces was due to the shooting, but as far as I know, at that time plastic surgery was not an artform.    The retouched pic looks almost like a character (one of the human ones, of course) from a Shreck movie.

I think the pictures really do tell the story.  AA may or may not have been FS, but in the pictures she surely doensn't match AN.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Alixz on July 13, 2007, 12:01:33 AM
Cosmetic or plastic surgery to correct deformities was begun during the Great War.  It was perfected for use on soldiers who had been horribly mutilated on the battlefield.  Some had lost parts of their faces and the early 20th century doctors began to work on trying to replace what was missing and enhance what was left.

The term "plastic" comes from the Greek plasty which only means surgery (according to a cosmetic surgeon I know).  Like abdominoplasty which means stomach surgery or rhinoplasty which means nose surgery.  (I am not sure about the spelling of those words.)  So "plastic surgery" is a misnomer because it doesn't mean anything.  It could be plasty surgery, but then we would be saying surgery surgery.

However, I sincerely doubt that AA had the money or connections to have any kind of cosmetic surgery done when the whole field was in its infancy.

I too "looked to find a reason to believe" and I originally thought that an early picture of AA looked a bit more like Tatiana than Anastasia.  But (with no disrespect intended) AA/FS was peasant stock and AN was not.  The differences in their appearance are very great, eyes, ears, nose, mouth.  And even if the difference were not so great, I still can not see a Russian Grand Duchess living in the disgusting life style level that AA lived in.  Beginning in Germany and then continuing on with Manahan in VA.

Even at the poorest time in her life, Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna never sank to that level.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 13, 2007, 07:09:06 AM
  And even if the difference were not so great, I still can not see a Russian Grand Duchess living in the disgusting life style level that AA lived in.  Beginning in Germany and then continuing on with Manahan in VA.

Even at the poorest time in her life, Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna never sank to that level.

Unfortunately one the symptoms of dementia/alzheimers is lack of personal hygiene or care for one's surroundings (it can  also be  a sign of severe depression)  - and such illnesses are not just limited to those from the  "lower classes".  Anyone can end up like that - even an aristocrat.  Nowadays most sufferers either have family who care for them or they go into nursing homes, but either way other people perform the tasks that they themselves can no longer do, or no longer care about.   
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Alixz on July 13, 2007, 07:30:33 AM
I am sorry if my post was misunderstood.

I did not mean to say that only "lower classes" could have dementia or live in squalor.  However, when one is born to a position where one lives in health and cleanliness, I find it hard to believe that anyone would lose that ingrained training.

However, that said, someone born to a position of having servants might not know how to take care of herself and therefore not understand what to do or why things were deteriorating around her.

But then, since we know that AA was not AN, she was not born to having servants and most probably knew a lot about taking care of a house and herself.

One thing that just came to me from another thread is that we do tend to speak of these people as "figures" and not real people.  To actually know them and to live as they did might help us to understand the whys and the wherefores.  I know that I can sometimes forget that and judge coldly when I have no idea what the person truly felt.

What looks like a strange or stupid judgement on an historical person's part can not be truly understood without knowing exactly what was going on in their mind at the time and what external forces were pushing them to make a certain decision.   :-\
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 13, 2007, 08:45:41 AM
I am sorry if my post was misunderstood.

No problem.

One thing that just came to me from another thread is that we do tend to speak of these people as "figures" and not real people.  To actually know them and to live as they did might help us to understand the whys and the wherefores.  I know that I can sometimes forget that and judge coldly when I have no idea what the person truly felt.

What looks like a strange or stupid judgement on an historical person's part can not be truly understood without knowing exactly what was going on in their mind at the time and what external forces were pushing them to make a certain decision.   :-\

How true.  It is easy for us to attribute feelings/motives etc to others but unless we are in that same position, we don't know how we would act. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 13, 2007, 09:28:08 AM
Cosmetic or plastic surgery to correct deformities was begun during the Great War.  It was perfected for use on soldiers who had been horribly mutilated on the battlefield.  Some had lost parts of their faces and the early 20th century doctors began to work on trying to replace what was missing and enhance what was left.

The term "plastic" comes from the Greek plasty which only means surgery (according to a cosmetic surgeon I know).  Like abdominoplasty which means stomach surgery or rhinoplasty which means nose surgery.  (I am not sure about the spelling of those words.)  So "plastic surgery" is a misnomer because it doesn't mean anything.  It could be plasty surgery, but then we would be saying surgery surgery.

However, I sincerely doubt that AA had the money or connections to have any kind of cosmetic surgery done when the whole field was in its infancy.

No, she didn't, and remember that she came into the asylum already looking nothing like AN- her mugshots:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)

so she surely couldn't have had any plastic surgery before she got her supporters behind her. Even then, IF she had been AN and IF she'd had plastic surgery, or any kind of reconstruction, her face would have looked like a messed up version of AA's face, not the face and bone structure of a totally different person.

Quote
I too "looked to find a reason to believe" and I originally thought that an early picture of AA looked a bit more like Tatiana than Anastasia.  But (with no disrespect intended) AA/FS was peasant stock and AN was not.

Yes, I too wanted badly to believe, but the truth became too evident to deny.

 
Quote
The differences in their appearance are very great, eyes, ears, nose, mouth. 

Yes, great is right, great big size difference in all the facial features! AA's eyes, nose and mouth are noticibly much larger than AN's delicate features. When you really compare them side by side (when they haven't been set up as poses made to look like AN, and have her biting her lips) you can really tell the blatant differences in the shapes of ALL the features, and the very shape of the face, especially the chin:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anastasia.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/sonotan.png)

That mouth is just a dead giveaway, and I think she and her supporters knew it and that's why they told her to bite her lips. Some of the pictures are obviously intentional lip biters, it's almost funny. Just lookie at her sucking them in!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/lipbiter.jpg)

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Alixz on July 13, 2007, 10:03:04 PM
Annie,

Is the picture in the middle of the bottom row supposed to be AN or AA posed to be her?

It is not a very clear photo.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 13, 2007, 10:09:35 PM
Annie,

Is the picture in the middle of the bottom row supposed to be AN or AA posed to be her?

It is not a very clear photo.

That pic is twice that size in my storage, but for some reason it posts small. I've tried reuploading it but it still shows up small. The only one that's AA is the last one. The reason I posted it is because in the big one, you can obviously see in the 'boa' pic how she's sucking her top lip almost totally under and biting it with her bottom one in a desperate attempt to look like the picture of AN to the left of it (so don't be fooled! see pic above that one how much thicker and different her lips were than AN's)

trying again

edit okay click on it it's bigger

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anacompare.jpg

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanheads.jpg)

and look here how different the whole faces are, how much smaller and differently placed AN's eyes and mouth are. To me one of the biggest differences is the chin, AN's was sort of elogated and shaped like the top of an egg, where AA's was shorter, flatter and squared.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Alixz on July 13, 2007, 10:26:05 PM
Even with sucking her lips in, she still did not have the distinctive lines which ran from AN's nose to her mouth.  AN had a very delicate nose and mouth.  AA's was large and "plump"  ::)

Thank you for posting those pictures again.  It did help and I did think that the one in the middle was AN because she was very young in it.  Still not having her hair up she must have been under 16.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: KiKi on July 13, 2007, 11:19:13 PM
When I said plastic surgery I was refering to the pic in the 9th post on the first page.  The pic was the one that seems to be touched up.  I guess what I ment was, from the time the pic was blury till it was sharpened up, it looked like a whole different person.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Foxglove on July 14, 2007, 04:26:38 AM
Were there ever any photos released of Franziska's family, especially her sisters? I suppose not, but it would be most fascinating to see if any resemblance still occurred between the "retouched" photo of Franziska and her family members, and whether the sisters had similar features to early photos of Anna Anderson. Actually, it wouldn’t hurt to see photos of the later generations, either. Wishful thinking, I suppose. :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Mari on July 14, 2007, 05:02:32 AM
This thread  isn't about us,  this is about a woman  who during her life, caused people to believe she was GD Anastasaia.    This is about  a woman  who touched many lives then and, now.   So,  it's never been about  us.
Although  I've never believed  AA was GD Anastasia,  I have to admit,  she has taken me on an interesting journey
Quote
AGRBear


This is an interesting discussion to me...those that think it....those that don't.....I even find it interesting how people defend their points of views....I think I'll go and do some past reading... ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Mari on July 14, 2007, 05:04:47 AM

Quote
This thread  isn't about us,  this is about a woman  who during her life, caused people to believe she was GD Anastasaia.    This is about  a woman  who touched many lives then and, now.   So,  it's never been about  us.

Although  I've never believed  AA was GD Anastasia,  I have to admit,  she has taken me on an interesting journey.


This is an interesting discussion to me... those that think it....those that don't...I even find it interesting how people defend their points of view. I think I'll go and read some of the old posts. ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 14, 2007, 08:51:49 AM
Someone once posted pictures said to be her siblings, but none of them looked like her IMO. However if you watch the NOVA special on AA, the brief shot of Carl Maucher, the nephew who gave the blood sample that matched her DNA, bears a very striking resemblance to a young AA. If any of you are able to make screencaps, please post that for us.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2007, 11:30:59 AM
Bear is not in any way and expert in all the details of  AA's life.  So,  the questions I will ask may be very obvious to those in the know but those of us who don't know,  perhaps you can  help us understand what dmitri is trying to tell us.


...[in part]....
.... Gleb Botkin was one of the greatest personal abusers once he realised his fraud had been discovered. 

From what I understand,  Gleb believed AA was GD Anastasia.   Do you have anything which tells us that he realized  AA was a fraud?  Or are you assuming this because you can't understand how anyone could believe that she was GD Anastasia?


Quote
That is why he sent abusive letters to the Grand Duchess Xenia and others.

Can you give us an example of  something he wrote in one of his  "absuive letters"? 

If you don't have the time to do so,   could you tell me the source  [book and pages]  so I or someone could  bring this to the forum to read?

Quote
It is worth noting that Anderson continued her appalling behaviour....

It little matter if AA was GD Anastasia or not,  if one focus on just AA's behavior from the time she reach Dalldorf  in 1920 to  1928,  it doesn't appear that  she had changed,  so,   I'm not sure why the family didn't expect her to be exactly as she was:  difficult,  ill,  etc. etc. etc.

Quote
.... even when living as a guest in the United States in 1928. Anderson lived for several months on Long Island with Mrs. William B. Leeds (born Princess Xenia Georgievna Romanova of Russia), a daughter of Grand Duke George Mihailovich of Russia and Princess Maria Georgievna of Greece and Denmark, until she was asked to leave. Prince Christopher of Greece described the stay, "She stayed with my niece, ... who showed her the greatest kindness, Then her treatment of the Grand Duchess Xiena, sister of the last Tsar, led to a quarrel with William Leeds, who turned her out of the house." Prince Christopher of Greece, stepfather of Leeds, reveals it all in his memoirs. The end result Prince Christopher of Greece is reviled as a 'liar' by the Anna Anderson supporters. When they can't cope with concrete evidence they then turn to abusing those who dare to reveal the lies.    

Prince Christopher of Greece commented further :
"Dozens of people who had known the Grand Duchess Anastasia were brought to see the girl in the hope that they might be able to identify her, but none of them could come to any definite conclusion. ... The poor girl was a pathetic figure in her loneliness and ill health, and it was comprehensible enough that many of those around her let their sympathy over-rule their logic.

Why did the family  continue to show off their guest time after time when they felt she wasn't  GD  Anastasia?

And,  since AA was in such poor health,  wasn't this constant traffic of being viewed  hard on this "pathetic figure"  who  really mst have been loney and we know was in "ill health".....

I can understand what you mean that AA's  ill health  created sympathy in those who viewed her.

I can also understand  from having been ill at times myself,  that  all this viewing  while AA was ill,   wasn't  a kind thing to do to AA or any ill person.  I don't care if she was the Queen of England or  my dog,   when a person or a dog  is ill,  no one wants  people parading into your sick room.

From what I understand and have seen in photographs,  AA's tb  was  real and not something  she imagined.

[continued next post]
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2007, 11:32:00 AM
[conintued from previous  post]

Quote
....But at the same time there was little real evidence to substantiate her story. She was unable to recognise people whom the Grand Duchess Anastasia had known intimately, .." 

Since I don't  think AA was GD Anastasia,  I don't see how she could have reconized everyone  who came to view her.

However,  in her defense,   if  she had been GD Anastasia,   and,  she was ill.....   I'm not sure  she could have known EVERYONE.    How old was she when she saw  each of them?   And,   let us not forget,  if she had been GD Anastasia,  she had lived  in isolation with just her family and a few servants from the time of their arrest....  Let us not forget the  trauma  of the execution....   This was mental  trauma and victims  don't always come out  what they were  the day before the  trauma occured.    If she suffered a head wound,   more trauma but this would have been physical.....  Just talk to a few people  who gone through their own personal traumas,  and,  one can easily see  how each of them were affected....

It is my opinion,  that AA wasn't   just acting,  I think,   from the t ime she disapeared  from the Wingender house to the time she jumped into the canal,  she suffered something horrible....  Who knows,  maybe,   she escaped  Grossmann  or  some  sadistic pimp.....  Striking her head in a fall....  Deep depression......  I have a vivid imagination but no proof,  of course.

Quote
Prince Felix Yussopov, husband of Princess Irina of Russia, daughter of Grand Duchess Xenia, wrote to Grand Duke Andrei about Anna Anderson, "I claim categorically that she is not Anastasia Nicolaievna, but just an adventuress, a sick hysteric and a frightful playactress. I simply cannot understand how anyone can be in doubt of this. If you had seen her, I am convinced that you would recoil in horror at the thought that this frightful creature could be a daughter of our Tsar ... These false pretenders ought to be gathered up and sent to live in a house somewhere."

A playactress could have only performs a period of time before being  caught in her act.   But,  she held onto this act  from 1920 to the time she died.  From what I understand,  even under drugs  administered because of her illness,  she continued  being the character of a woman  who claimed she was  GD Anastasia.    THIS  causes me to realize  AA's   abilities.... or..... was it ?   Did she truly  believe she was GD Anastasia?  If she did,  did she ever know  who  AA was before she jumped into the canal?   Does she even remember jumping into the canal?

Quote
Another relative of the real Anasatasia, Prince Rotislav Romanov, after the announcement of the DNA evidence, stated, "There has never been a shadow of a doubt. My father was raised with Anastasia, and this woman would never see him." Prince Rotislav's father was a first cousin of Anastasia. It is obvious Anderson didn't want to see him as she knew he would expose her to be the fraud she was. 
...in  part....



Most of us are not  into  the  WHOS  WHO of the Romanov  family.    So,  tell us,  who was  Prince Rotislav's  father and how well did  Anastasia know him.

Do you have any sources telling us that AA didn't want to see  Prince Rotislav's   father?


Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 14, 2007, 01:21:36 PM
Bear if everything has to have a page number to you, you'll be stuck in "Riddle of AA" and "File on the Tsar" forever. If you want to 'think outside the box' you have to realize that some things were not documented, because people don't go around leaving a paper trail of fraud. What do you expect to find, someone's diary saying 'today I helped FS pretend to be AN?' Never going to happen, but obviously people did. Another sad factor is that most of those who actively research the subject are so pro AA they wouldn't tell the bad stuff that hurt her case even if they found it. I wonder what all may really be out there that we don't see. I'm not calling them a 'liar' but a lawyer on the case. If your lawyer was defending you, and found incriminating evidence that would hurt you, he'd ignore it in favor of presenting stuff that would make you look good.

There has been a lot of stuff posted here from random sources,  including letters and personal recollections, and I"ve been going through the old threads trying to find some of it. I do not have unlimited time online, and my computer isn't that fast, so it's taking a long time. Here is something interesting I found, posted by Bob Atchison back in 2004:

Marine Beddleston (Vassily's daughter) and Andrew Romanov told me that once FS knew the Imperial dentist was coming to examine her mouth she had all of her teeth pulled.

See, a lot of people on this forum have traveled to Russia and have met people who are either royals or who knew the royals. But because their quotes aren't in a book, you won't consider them. That's your loss.

Speaking of her teeth, here's another great find from back in 2004, and it does have a page number:

"The Last Grand Duchess" by Ian Vorres, 2001 edition, ISBN 1552633020, p. 253, Notes to Chapter Nine, Note 1 (4) right column.

Dr. Kostrizky, the dentist of the imperial family, testified that the jaws of Mrs.Tchaikovsky-Anderson had nothing in common with the jaws-of which there was a plaster impression-of Grand Duchess Anastasia.


more to come as I find it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 14, 2007, 01:51:05 PM
For those who have asked over time, I think I just found the origin (at least here) of the Queen switched the intestines theory! This is a post from 3 years ago:

Re: Anna Anderson and Anastasia
   
     I am not entirely convinced that Anna Anderson and Grand Duchess Anastasia were not the same person. Lili Dehn, Tatiana Botkin, Grand Duke Andrei, Mathilde Kesschinska- all of these persons positively identified this woman as being their friend or relative.
     Even if, however, Anna Anderson was not Anastasia she was certainly not Franziska Schanskowska, regardless of what the DNA says.....
    I think there is a simple answer to the problem with the DNA. If you look carefully at the whole procedure you will find that there was only one European royal family directly involved- the Windsor, in England. The Hohenzollerns no longer have anything to lose politically [if Anna Anderson turns out to be Anastasia]. The Romanovs have nothing to lose politically, either- only the Windsors, who would suffer a massive public relations nightmare at having left a poor royal cousin in the gutter. There are already many in England who see the Windsors as incorrigibly corrupt, and who clamor for their removal. Does Prince Phillip want this scandal to make things worse? Of course not.
    The Windsor family is one of the wealthiest in the world, with a fortune exceeding $25 billion for the queen alone. Also, contrary to what some people, the royal family of Great Britain is not absolutely devoid of power. In some ways they are still one of the most powerful families in the world.
    It would not have been difficult, at all, for the Windsors to have rigged the results, in order to protect their own public relations image and political position.


and here's a thread that followed (started by the same guy who made above post):

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=1970199f36307d1c40405da8fdf1e3dc&topic=1060.0
   
I am not bumping it, even if it's not locked, which it probably is, it doesn't need to be brought forward for more 'debate.' It's ridiculous, but I wanted to show those who have wondered about this theory can see for themselves it was just as bad as we said.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 14, 2007, 02:17:38 PM
MORE! Here's direct contradiction to one of her most famous claims!

The Riddle of Anna Anderson (page 85) :

"Harriet von Rathlef had prepared a list of other identifying marks : a small white scar on the shoulder blade from a cauterized mole; another scar at the root of the middle finger of the left hand, which Anastasia said had been caught in a carriage door when she was very young; and a third 'indistinct' scar on the forehead."

BUT


From Klier and Mingay's : The Quest for Anastasia (page 157) :

"Anna also had a small blemish on her forehead, similar to the Grand Duchess Anastasia, which was generally covered with a fringe when she was a girl.  Anna had a scar on the base of the middle finger of her left hand, which made her finger stiff and which Harriet von Rathlef attributed to an accident when a footman closed a carriage door too early and trapped the hand.  This incident did happen, but according to Grand Duchess Olga, it was Anastasia's sister, Grand Duchess Maria, who suffered from having her finger trapped in this way. "


From The Last Grand Duchess by Ian Vorres, Grand Duchess Olga Alexandrovna (the girls' aunt):

P. 176

“…The mistakes she made could not be all attributed to lapses of memory. For instance, she had a scar on one of her fingers and she kept telling everybody that it had been crushed because of a footman shutting the door of a landau too quickly. And at once I remembered the incident. It was Marie, her elder sister, who got her hand hurt rather badly, and it did not happen in a carriage but on board the imperial train. Obviously someone, having heard something of the incident, had passed a garbled version of it to Mrs Anderson."

so you see, there are explainations for everything, if we can only find them. Many of her 'memories' were inaccurate, or vague, or unverifyable. So it's a very likely scenario that the persons feeding her such info had intimate, yet limited, knowledge of the family and their homes.

The forward of this book (which is very good!)

http://20th-century-history-books.com/0679451420.html

tells a tale of how Gleb was actually rather close at times to Anastasia, Marie and Alexei.


He may have picked up a lot while there, and heard yet more from his father, the doctor, who was with them even more. Besides this, Gleb was a very creative writer and artist (see that book, he was just a kid when he invented that!) he had just the type of mind to be able to help out quite a bit with a false story of an escaped princess. Search your feelings, you know it to be true! (or at least possible! and I'm not saying he was the first or only 'feeder' but seemingly surely a had a big part in it all)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2007, 06:18:48 PM
Bear if everything has to have a page number to you, you'll be stuck in "Riddle of AA" and "File on the Tsar" forever. If you want to 'think outside the box' you have to realize that some things were not documented, because people don't go around leaving a paper trail of fraud.

...[in part]....

I was laughing so hard,  I couldn't  find my box which  I created in photobucket  a couple of years ago when I was asking Annie and others to get out of their box   and  pay attention to some of the new evidence being discovered in new data being found.

Since I  believe AA was NOT GD Anastasia,  I'll let those who believe AA was GD Anstasia answer your  questions about injuried fingers and which Romanov believed what and why.  Course,  if I recall something and I have time,  I'll  jump in, now, and,  then.

My only suggestion  is that  everyone works  point by point or  everyone is going to get bog down trying to discuss everything   Annie has  posted.

AGRBear

PS  Remember this box?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/BoxSm.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 14, 2007, 07:04:35 PM
Bear the posts about the finger were not meant just for you. I was going through some old info and wanted to bring some interesting stuff forward for general purposes.

And yes I remember the box! And Helen's avatar of your slippery road to truth, and my horse who's still there, and more. There have been a lot of props on our journey!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Foxglove on July 14, 2007, 09:43:53 PM
Well, now I want to see what Carl Maucher looks like. ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: G_Lermontov on July 15, 2007, 07:52:41 PM
This is my first post, and I came to this forum to discuss this very topic.

I'm pretty new to the whole Romanov history thing, being introduced to the subject through Robert K. Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra less than a year ago.  Since then, I've read his follow-up, The Final Chapter, as well as general histories of the time period and Peter Kurth's Anastasia:  The Riddle of Anna Anderson.  In addition, I've read material online about the family and the question of whether or not the Tsar's youngest daughter survived the massacre in Ekaterinburg.  Even with the DNA tests that proved AA wasn't AN, I still wanted to believe that maybe, just maybe, the scientists were wrong and the story was true.  Scientists have been wrong before, right?  God only knows how much time I spent comparing photographs of Anastasia and Anna Anderson, trying to see similarities.  Even though I believed the case was pretty much solved, I still bought into the hype that it was "one of the greatest mysteries of the 20th century", having only been conclusively solved with the 1994 DNA tests. Then I saw a photograph on Peter Kurth's website that made me wonder why I, or anyone else, wasted so much time on this nonsense.

I saw the Franziska Schanzkowska picture from 1916, which was published in the Berliner Nachtausgabe in 1927.  What I find so baffling is the fact that the "great mystery" was never anything of the sort.  It was solved conclusively, not with the 1994 DNA tests, but with the 1927 photo.  The Anna Anderson story isn't "one of the greatest mysteries of the 20th century", it's an obvious fraud and has been for decades.  Franziska Schanzkowska is Anna Anderson, Anna Anderson is Franziska Schanzkowska.  Based on the photo alone, they're so obviously the same woman, I can't even wrap my mind around how anyone could think otherwise.  You don't have to squint your eyes and have the right lighting and grainy black and white photographs to help you see a similarity, like when comparing AA and AN.  The reams and reams of pages that have been wasted arguing one side or the other on this subject could be reduced to 2 pages, one showing the Schanzkowska photo from 1916 and the other showing the Anderson photo from 1920, with the appropriate captions.

It seems so strange that seemingly intelligent people (Peter Kurth, for example) still believe this mad old biddy was the Grand Duchess Anastasia.  The one fact that seems to draw the true believers together is that many actually knew Ms. Schanzkowska personally.  They usually are proud to mention this fact when arguing the subject, as if it strengthens their argument: " I actually knew Anna Anderson, and there's no way she was a Polish factory worker".  In my mind, the only argument that the fact that they knew her strenghthens is the rather obvious one that it's much harder to be conned by a conwoman when you haven't met her.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: KiKi on July 15, 2007, 09:21:52 PM
I agree, it is amazing how much time and paper has been used up trying to prove that AA as AN.   As I said before, I was someone who really wanted to belive it. *sigh*

The part of AA's nose that dips way down and her lips are dead give aways.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2007, 09:57:35 AM
I  remember the discussion about fingers being caughts in carriage doors.  And,  I think the conversation came out to a draw since  injuries to fingers for people were at that time and into my mother's generation quite common.  Kinda like our kids and car door injuries.  Just because we know of one grand duchess getting her finger caught and scared doesn't mean that the other three grand duchess couldn't have had a similar injury from a carriage or a train or a palace door.

Don't think this is one of stronger points in proving  AA was not GD Anastasia.  ::)


AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2007, 10:30:16 AM
Since Gleb Bothkin knew GD Anastasia as children,  one would think he'd have been the least likely to believe AA  was GD Anastasia.

Thus far,  I have not seen any proof that Gleb doubted  AA as being GD Anastasia. 

Some posters seem to  think Gleb  grabbed onto  AA's coat-tails with the hope to make  a bundle of money off of her and her storiy?   My question is:  Why would he, if he knew that she was a fake,  place himself in a position with someone he believed was a fake?  One would think he'd make more money revealing her as a fake then accepting her as GD Anastasia.  Afterall,  he was one of few who was with the royal family in Tobolsk and commuunicated with them  in Ekaterinburg.   Added to this,  his father was the doctor for the IF and  was executed by the Reds along with the IF.

AGRBear




Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 10:31:44 AM
This is my first post, and I came to this forum to discuss this very topic.

I'm pretty new to the whole Romanov history thing, being introduced to the subject through Robert K. Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra less than a year ago.  Since then, I've read his follow-up, The Final Chapter, as well as general histories of the time period and Peter Kurth's Anastasia:  The Riddle of Anna Anderson.  In addition, I've read material online about the family and the question of whether or not the Tsar's youngest daughter survived the massacre in Ekaterinburg.  Even with the DNA tests that proved AA wasn't AN, I still wanted to believe that maybe, just maybe, the scientists were wrong and the story was true.  Scientists have been wrong before, right?  God only knows how much time I spent comparing photographs of Anastasia and Anna Anderson, trying to see similarities.  Even though I believed the case was pretty much solved, I still bought into the hype that it was "one of the greatest mysteries of the 20th century", having only been conclusively solved with the 1994 DNA tests. Then I saw a photograph on Peter Kurth's website that made me wonder why I, or anyone else, wasted so much time on this nonsense.

I saw the Franziska Schanzkowska picture from 1916, which was published in the Berliner Nachtausgabe in 1927.  What I find so baffling is the fact that the "great mystery" was never anything of the sort.  It was solved conclusively, not with the 1994 DNA tests, but with the 1927 photo.  The Anna Anderson story isn't "one of the greatest mysteries of the 20th century", it's an obvious fraud and has been for decades.  Franziska Schanzkowska is Anna Anderson, Anna Anderson is Franziska Schanzkowska.  Based on the photo alone, they're so obviously the same woman, I can't even wrap my mind around how anyone could think otherwise.  You don't have to squint your eyes and have the right lighting and grainy black and white photographs to help you see a similarity, like when comparing AA and AN.  The reams and reams of pages that have been wasted arguing one side or the other on this subject could be reduced to 2 pages, one showing the Schanzkowska photo from 1916 and the other showing the Anderson photo from 1920, with the appropriate captions.

It seems so strange that seemingly intelligent people (Peter Kurth, for example) still believe this mad old biddy was the Grand Duchess Anastasia.  The one fact that seems to draw the true believers together is that many actually knew Ms. Schanzkowska personally.  They usually are proud to mention this fact when arguing the subject, as if it strengthens their argument: " I actually knew Anna Anderson, and there's no way she was a Polish factory worker".  In my mind, the only argument that the fact that they knew her strenghthens is the rather obvious one that it's much harder to be conned by a conwoman when you haven't met her.



Very good and interesting post. Thank you. Welcome to the forum, please post more often!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 10:37:17 AM
You know bear, there are a lot of people out there getting money and/or fame for promoting someone who is not what they say. Hey look at the policiticans! They are groomed and coached to be a certain way and say certain things to attract certain supporters. They are sold as a product. I'm not buying, but many do.

Why would he stick with her if he knew she was a 'fake?' Bear you're not that naive, are you? There was a story there, and he was a writer. He had memories and info to help her (though I do believe and always have said he was certainly not the first or the only one to do this!) and he was cunning and clever enough to promote her and advance her cause. It's no coincidence her claim skyrocketed to worldwide fame after he took up with her. There was even no court case before him. Another factor people don't know or overlook is that his uncle, Sergei Botkin, brother of Doctor Botkin, was the head of the Russian emigre' society in Berlin. He was a great help to her.This is how she got the connections, and the memories and coaching, she needed to advance her claim. We will never know who did it intentionally or innocently, but no doubt a lot of people were a part of it. IMO there's your answer to 'how did she do it' right there.

Something like AA's case could NEVER succeed today, not only because of the DNA, but because of the mass media, paparazzi, investigative reporters, internet, gossip and 'smoking gun' websites. She'd be found out real quick like.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on July 17, 2007, 11:09:38 AM


It seems so strange that seemingly intelligent people (Peter Kurth, for example) still believe this mad old biddy was the Grand Duchess Anastasia.  The one fact that seems to draw the true believers together is that many actually knew Ms. Schanzkowska personally.  They usually are proud to mention this fact when arguing the subject, as if it strengthens their argument: " I actually knew Anna Anderson, and there's no way she was a Polish factory worker".  In my mind, the only argument that the fact that they knew her strenghthens is the rather obvious one that it's much harder to be conned by a conwoman when you haven't met her.



I see you have hit on something here. Could it be that in some cases they may feel if she were only a 'Polish factory worker' that their meeting of her is less significant, and therefore their own lives a little less important for having met her? There are also those who perhaps would rather cling to belief in her rather than to admit they were conned by her.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: G_Lermontov on July 17, 2007, 01:01:46 PM
Quote
I see you have hit on something here. Could it be that in some cases they may feel if she were only a 'Polish factory worker' that their meeting of her is less significant, and therefore their own lives a little less important for having met her?

I think that may be the case with Peter Kurth.  If you go to his website, you'll see he's definitely a fan of royalty, from the Windsors to the Romanovs to the Grimaldis.  Anna Anderson would be the only "royal" (there aren't quotation marks big enough for that) person he's ever known personally, if not ever met.  I can see where that would make him especially willing to believe her story.  I'm sure he's proud of his role as her most prominent defender later in her life.  If Anna Anderson wasn't Anastasia, instead of being a white knight defending a helpless, tragically mistreated princess, Peter Kurth would be just another victim of a con artist who spent decades of his life defending an old kook leeching a living off the brutal death of an innocent teenager.

Quote
Very good and interesting post. Thank you. Welcome to the forum, please post more often!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2007, 05:59:00 PM

...[in part]...

...  We will never know who did it intentionally or innocently, but no doubt a lot of people were a part of it. IMO there's your answer to 'how did she do it' right there.



Therefore,  everything  about any conspiracy is  SPECULATION.   

I think it's safe to assume that there were times  information was "innocently" given to AA.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2007, 08:15:32 PM
If Anna Anderson wasn't Anastasia, instead of being a white knight defending a helpless, tragically mistreated princess, Peter Kurth would be just another victim of a con artist who spent decades of his life defending an old kook leeching a living off the brutal death of an innocent teenager.


Well said! That's a very nice way of putting it, and exactly right.

You are briliant! Got any more comments on the AA case? I'd love to hear them!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 18, 2007, 06:12:13 AM

I think that may be the case with Peter Kurth.  If you go to his website, you'll see he's definitely a fan of royalty, from the Windsors to the Romanovs to the Grimaldis.  Anna Anderson would be the only "royal" (there aren't quotation marks big enough for that) person he's ever known personally, if not ever met.  I can see where that would make him especially willing to believe her story. 

I have no idea if "this is the case" with Peter Kurth, although if it is, he would join many people on this board who are royalty fans.   AA was far from the only "royal" he ever met.  He  knew several of the Romanovs  and has met members of the British royal family too.  If he was star struck, surely he would be more so by a "real" royal than by someone people think is an imposter.

I also don't think that PK's self esteem  needs bolstering by "fake"  or "real" royal connections.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: mikeycoleman on July 18, 2007, 02:29:24 PM
Hasn't anyone noticed in the picture with her "Noses and the infamous ears" that her forhead itself seems to be  different.  AA's is shorter than AN!

Mikey

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 18, 2007, 11:46:49 PM
Hasn't anyone noticed in the picture with her "Noses and the infamous ears" that her forhead itself seems to be  different.  AA's is shorter than AN!

Mikey



Yes! And the chin is shorter and flatter than AN's!

and now for the real sinker, or stinker...

Helloooo Franziska! Pair of aces!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/heyfran.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 19, 2007, 02:08:32 AM
Kurth willingly allowed himself to be the victim of an obvious con artist. He has made heaps of money defending the fraud Anna Anderson. He certainly looked like a complete fool when the DNA evidence was released. Check out the interview with him if you can lay your hands on it. It is absolutely hilarious to see him lie and squirm. He is an even bigger fraud than Anna Anderson.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 19, 2007, 06:05:01 AM
, Peter Kurth would be just another victim of a con artist who spent decades of his life defending an old kook leeching a living off the brutal death of an innocent teenager.


Well said! And not just any teenager either but that of Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolayevna!!!

I've said it before and i'll say it again, what disgusts me is the amount of grief the surviving Romanovs had to tolerate due to the disgraceful behaviour of AA and her cronies.  >:(
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: KiKi on July 19, 2007, 08:14:38 AM
Hasn't anyone noticed in the picture with her "Noses and the infamous ears" that her forhead itself seems to be  different.  AA's is shorter than AN!

Mikey



Yes! And the chin is shorter and flatter than AN's!


and now for the real sinker, or stinker...

Helloooo Franziska! Pair of aces!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/heyfran.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)


I know eyebrows can be altered, but look in this pic, they are identical.  Was that the fashion of the day?  You would think, if AA was going to try to be AN she would have at least tried to make herself not look like FS.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on July 19, 2007, 10:31:24 AM
Oh! They do look exactly alike! Face shape, chin, features and even hair  part. It's funny that on Kurth's site, he matches that particular picture of AA in the fur coat up with Marie F. instead of AN! Side by side with FS, there's no question they are the same woman.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 19, 2007, 10:32:33 AM
Agreed Lemur!! Absolutely the same.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 19, 2007, 11:20:10 AM
Oh! They do look exactly alike! Face shape, chin, features and even hair  part. It's funny that on Kurth's site, he matches that particular picture of AA in the fur coat up with Marie F. instead of AN! Side by side with FS, there's no question they are the same woman.

The whole point about that is she looks  very much like some younger pics of the Dowager Empress  - an overall  family resemblance is what is being suggested.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on July 19, 2007, 11:41:03 AM
Oh! They do look exactly alike! Face shape, chin, features and even hair  part. It's funny that on Kurth's site, he matches that particular picture of AA in the fur coat up with Marie F. instead of AN! Side by side with FS, there's no question they are the same woman.

The whole point about that is she looks  very much like some younger pics of the Dowager Empress  - an overall  family resemblance is what is being suggested.



I realize that but I still think it's funny he knew better than to compare her directly to AN, or especially not FS, whom she is the image of (same person) There is no "family resemblance" since she wasn't related to the Dowager Empress, and the real Anastasia herself did not favor her grandmother.

I agree with Annie, Kiki and eddieboy_uk! There's no escaping that perfect match.

Is there a reason Kurth's site is down? I just went to check something and I got an error/no url here message. Is he updating it?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 19, 2007, 12:48:51 PM
Maybe he's finally excepted that his websites a joke?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 19, 2007, 04:49:02 PM
Thank you all! Those pictures are really pretty damning :D AA=FS!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/heyfran.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 20, 2007, 10:38:48 AM
The photos show up the fraud for what she was. Even Blind Freddie could see she bears no resemblance whatsoever to the real Anastasia who died in the Ipatiev House.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 20, 2007, 10:47:22 AM
Anything AA knew about the Romanovs was told to her by others. She made repeated mistakes when questioned by many. This is why she refused to meet so many relatives of Grand Duchess Anastasia as they would definitely know things she was totally clueless about. What a complete fraud she was.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: KiKi on July 20, 2007, 06:37:10 PM
The more I look at it, the more I find... I  just now looked closely to the mouth. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Johnny on July 21, 2007, 04:55:06 PM
Something like AA's case could NEVER succeed today, not only because of the DNA, but because of the mass media, paparazzi, investigative reporters, internet, gossip and 'smoking gun' websites. She'd be found out real quick like.
Actually, I think nothing has changed since. Look how the WMD story in conncection with Iraq was sold to people. I am sure in some decades there will be shocking evidence as to what really happened on 9/11. Many people believe the official version of stories, many don't, and this inspite of internet, reporters, paparazzi, and smoking gun websites. How many conspiracy theory websites there are on the internet about 9/11 I don't need to tell you. This was true even then. Many believed she was Anastasia, although there many facts against it, but many others did not believe her story. People choose what they want to believe now as they did then.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Belochka on July 22, 2007, 06:04:43 AM
Nevertheless Mrs Manahan's fraudulent behavior was proven beyond reasonable doubt using science.

Yet there remains a small insignificant group who relish conspiracy theories to the point that no matter what indisputable proof is offered they will maintain their own tiresome rebuttals.

Margarita    ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 22, 2007, 10:25:39 AM
Nevertheless Mrs Manahan's fraudulent behavior was proven beyond reasonable doubt using science.

Yet there remains a small insignificant group who relish conspiracy theories to the point that no matter what indisputable proof is offered they will maintain their own tiresome rebuttals.

Margarita    ;D

You tell it exactly as it is. A small group who won't stop, some of them getting very nasty to those do who disagree (one of our newer members is now being harassed in private by Caleb) and reciting the same old tired lists about the shoes, the teeth, the ears, etc. as 'proof' she was AN ::) this is still going on with me in PMs from those who will no longer openly post it :-\) all leading to my own tiresome rebuttals that they will never accept because it's not what they want to hear. There is a certain faction I know well, small though it is, that I am certain will NEVER accept any evidence that AA wasn't AN. Even if SEARCH fnds and IDs the bones, you'd better believe there will be conspiracy theories that the Russian gov't or the Queen rigged it, somebody was paid off, they were switched, it will never end, but the end result will  never change and nothing is ever going to make AA be AN.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 22, 2007, 11:12:18 AM
Just for the record, I'm going to give my tiresome rebuttal to the tiresome list one more time. Here's the list someone just sent me, I'll respond to each one logically, for all the good it will do!

1.AA was a girl "around 20" when found
FS would have been 24

If you look at the mugshots, she looks much older than 24! I can't find the quote, but I saw one once where, when she wouldn't give her name or age, she asked the nurses to guess her age. When one guessed 30, she became offended, and snapped back, "I'm not so very old!" So I don't think anyone thought she looked 20, and she didn't. (AN would have been eighteen and a half)

2.AA had reddish dark blond hair
FS had almost black hair'
AA had all teeth (later some extracted at Dalldorf_
FS had "black stumps"

ALL this is heasay, contradictory reports, and is so subjective and prone to incorrect memory of detail, human error, or outright lies it really doesn't hold up as 'evidence'. We do, however, have evidence that AA had her teeth pulled to avoid them being matched to AN's dental records, and that the Romanov family dentist said the jaw mold did not match AN's. Hair? There's dye, you know, and people describing it wrong. Some people call any shade of dark hair 'black'. This means nothing.

3. AA had scars and lacerations all over
FS had none

Again, what is the proof? Alleged 'new' records no one found during the trial, that were miraculously not destroyed in either world war, or tossed out as old? I find it hard to believe a doctor's practice would even be around that long, or keep records that long. I was unable to get records from a doctor I'd been to in the past, they told me if a patient doesn't come back for five years they toss them to save space. This in the days of computers! And as for the family denying she had scars, maybe they never saw them! I'm sure my family couldn't name my scars, and in the days of longer dresses and stockings, I'm sure her brother never would have seen them anyway. (besides the fact I believe the family was not telling the truth and covering themselves to avoid claiming and exposing her)

4.AA had very developed Hallux Valgus
FS had none

That's a very common foot condition. AA had TB of the bones and had worked standing on her feet for long hours. It's very possible she developed it after leaving home.

5. AA had borne a child
FS had not

Just because there is no official record of FS having a child means nothing. Remember what a disgrace an out of wedlock pregnancy was in those days! OF COURSE she wouldn't tell her family, she'd hide it from them out of shame. We'll never know what happened to AA/FS's poor baby, there are many possibilities- she may have abandoned it, thrown it in the trash can, or even left it to die in the woods. This happens even to this day with desperate young girls. She may have dumped it an an orphanage anonymously. It may have been stillborn, and she disposed of the body. It may not have even made it to full term, she could have had a miscarriage or abortion. A fetys of at least 4-5 months along will leave the same scars as a full term baby (I know this because my Grandmother lost a baby at 5 months and in old age the doctor told her he could tell she'd  had five children, but she only had 4. The fifth was the lost baby, he could still detect it.)

6. AA spoke Russian, bad German (with a heavy Russian accent) and English
FS spoke good German and a little Kashoubian

I don't even feel like getting into the languages. She obviously didn't know Russian, too many people complained of her inability to speak it. I have seen no proof she was ever given a test to prove it. She didn't originally speak English, and what she later learned was crude and heavily accented, not the proper English of a girl raised in a family where English was spoken every day with a British accent. AA spoke mainly in German, which would have been the least known and used of AN's real languages.

7. AA was found on 2/17
FS moved "to place unknown" on 3/9

It took them awhile to report her missing! If I had a tenant who was gone for days, the first thing I'd think is they had gone on a trip. The next thing I'd suspect is that they skipped out to avoid paying rent. It's very possible that no one really considered her 'missing' for that long. Since there was no close contact via phone and email like there is today, it's very likely her family didn't hear from her all that frequently anyway and didn't find it strange they heard nothing for 2 weeks or more. It took that long before anyone realized something was wrong. By the time she was reported missing, there was so much turmoil in Berlin (Kapp Putsch overthrow of Weimar gov't broke out a few days later, shutting down the city for days, followed by general strikes, joined by the police) so the police had much more important things on their minds than one missing girl. Her case fell through the cracks in those early days of the investigation, but Ernie's PI was able to quickly make the ID of AA to FS using Berlin's records. Of course he was later proven correct by DNA, though AA fanatics will continue to attack both Ernie and the DNA scientists as crooked and wrong ::)

cont...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 22, 2007, 11:13:53 AM
8. AA had shoe size 36
FS had shoe size 39

Those damn shoes again! We really have nothing here, either. There's no proof of any of this other than word of mouth from different people who were likely just mistaken. Just for fun, I was asking people I knew my shoe size the other day and none of them got it right! So since other people say I wear a different size shoe than I really do, I guess I'm not really me then!

9. AA had "unforgettable" blue eyes
FS had eyes so forgettable that nobody remembered their color

Who said that about the eyes, Mathilde K. in her old age? Sorry, really no evidence here either.


10. AA was "undoubtedly a lady of the higher social classes"
FS was a peasant

and others described her as rough and unrefined (which is what I see on videos of her!) If she acted high class young, it was because she was 'putting on airs' (those who knew FS said she acted this way sometimes) and/or was coached a la "My Fair Lady" by her supporters in the Russian emigre' community. Being a 'peasant' doesn't mean you can't act high class. Look at all the poor people who have become famous actors and actresses and can portray anyone of any class, even royalty. This, too, is a very vague and weak case for AA.


11. AA had "the most beautiful, soft hands"
FS came right from the asparagus farm

She had several months to rest them in the aslyum before she started pretending to be AA. And I don't think anyone was farming any asparagus in January and February!

12. AA demanded a bath every day
FS "showed an inclination against bathing"

Well, if you'd been in a situation where you weren't able to bathe regularly, then suddenly you were, wouldn't you take advantage of it?

13. AA was just under 5'2"
FS was over 5'4"

This is NOT PROOF! Height is perhaps the most subjective and easily mistaken of all. I have often told the story of the people I know who all met a famous singer. They all argued over his height, placing him anywhere from 5'2" to 5'8", though all were standing right next to him! So many things come in to this, such as someone could have been standing on an incline or hillside, someone's shoes could have been higher or lower, or just plain inaccurate memory and distortion in the mind's eye. Besides all that, AA had TB of the bones, which would cause a person to possibly shrink like osteoperosis. So this height thing is the easiest thing I toss out.


14. AA's handwriting matched AN's
FS' did not

Who did the analysis, and how do you know it was fair or right? Was AA trained to copy her handwriting? Was the 'expert' a member or Grandanour? This is no evidence compared to DNA.

15. AA's face matched AN's
FS' did not

Again I question the 'specialist.' Was this one of those Nazi scientists who judged the face masks of the Tibetians as being of German descent? Whoever they were, they were very wrong. Goodness gracious you can look at the pictures and see that AA and AN had very different features and bone structure. AA's chin was short and flat, AN's longer and ovally rounded. AN's lips thin, small and shapely, AA's large, full and shapeless. See the 'photographic comparison' thread for more on this. Anyone who matched them as 'twins' was, to put it nicely, wrong.

16. AA's ears matched AN's
FS's did not

How did FS's not? The only pic of FS has her hair covered. You cannot accurately match ears from a shadowy black and white picture of Anastasia (or Marie!)

17. AA knew details from the Russian court that not even the intimates knew (the Swastika on the car, f. ex. that not even Volkov remembered.)
Oh! So if not even the 'intimates' knew, who verified them as accurate?  ;D

>FS would never been privy to that kind of info

No, but perhaps someone in the Russian court knew and fed the info to her as AA!

18. AA could name people at the court from photos

I've never heard this one! If so, she was alerted ahead of time in order to 'amaze' in public.

>FS would not have had a chance to find out

Oh, but she would as AA, from someone who had been in the Russian court and escaped to tell her!

19. AA could name rooms in the palaces
FS had no books to find that information in
AA knew court etiquette to the max'
FS would have had no-one to train her

Again, all of this could easily have come from Russian emigres'. And she got some of the rooms wrong!

Next: The dreaded list of those who 'recognized' her!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 22, 2007, 11:27:00 AM
That was all from a list of 'evidence' AA is AN that an avid AA supporter sent me. Now for the rest of it, the people who 'recognized' her:

Alexis Volkov- Really? I've never heard that one. I thought he didn't? Read his memoirs.

Grand Duchess Olga
Pierre Gilliard

NO. They went in hopeful, and thought perhaps it was her in bad shape as my friend did when she found the dirty dog and thought it was hers, but as time went on they were all able to realize they'd made a mistake. Just because it took them a little longer to make sure doesn't mean they 'lied' or 'changed their minds' because of some sinister plot! Both of them fought AA until their dying days, and no one was paying them off. They did it for love and AN's memory.

Crown Princess Cecilie- She didn't even know AN! They were third cousins, 15 year age difference, didn't grow up together, Cecile moved to Germany when AN was 3, and since children weren't allowed at social functions and parties, it was extremely unlikely she saw much of AN. Then the war broke out in 1914, and Cecile, being married to the German crown prince, couldn't go back to Russia. So the very latest she could have seen, or even glimpsed AN, IF she even did, was at age 12-13. I do not consider her a good judge of AA, and besides the weak connection here there's the part where she went eccentric after the war.

Tatiana Botkin
Gleb Botkin

Do I even have to get into this? Did they really beileve her, or were they some of the ones giving her the info and promoting her as the lost princess? A lot of people don't like to hear or believe this for various reasons, but the fact is AA wasn't AN and somebody had to have helped her. They played very prominent roles in her claim. Everyone knows what I think of this.

Princess Märtha of Sweden- Who? When did she meet AN?

Lili Dehn- Was very old, and met when AA was in her 50's. There would be little chance she could have seen a teenage AN in a real AN, much less a false one. AA tricked Lili with a story from her own book! (forgot to mention in above post that there were several books about the IF written by insiders in the early 20's AA/FS could have consulted. Lili's book was pubished in 1922.)

Zinaida Tolstoy- I really don't know this story, but she was wrong.

Xenia Leeds- A second cousin who hadn't seen her since childhood. Could you accurately ID a cousin you saw only a few times at family parties as a child after they were grown?

Maria Rasputin- By the time they met when both were in old age, this lady was just as wacky as ol' AA. Besides, it was hard enough sneaking Rasputin into the palace, I'm sure his kids didn't see much of the IF!

Grand Duke Andrew- How would he know? He was a Vladmirovichi, the line detested by N and A. They sure never saw much of the family! Besides that Andrew was married to N's ex mistress, so add that to N and A's hatred of Andrew's mother and brothers and you see this was an awkward and unlikely family guest he'd have been! He had little contact with the family, and likely none with the younger children. Olga A. said in a letter she thought he was up to something to hurt them (Alexandrovichi) because she knew he didn't really believe it. Think about this, too- Andrew's brother Kyril was the self proclaimed "Tsar in Exile"- so IF there was any chance of a restoration of the throne or gaining of a bank account, that branch of the family would have been the LAST to want to see one of Nicky's kids show up! AGAIN no!


> The rest of the family never met her and have no say in identification.

According to what I've read, a lot of them took the 'high ground' or a sort of 'I won't dignify this with a response' type of attitude.


And I think many posters here agree.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 22, 2007, 09:58:40 PM
Wel lanswered Annie. You can drive a fully laden semi-trailer through the so-called arguments of the AA supporters. These people must have very little historical knowledge to support the AA rubbish.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 23, 2007, 07:37:16 AM
[
There is a certain faction I know well, small though it is, that I am certain will NEVER accept any evidence that AA wasn't AN. Even if SEARCH fnds and IDs the bones, you'd better believe there will be conspiracy theories that the Russian gov't or the Queen rigged it, somebody was paid off, they were switched, it will never end, but the end result will  never change and nothing is ever going to make AA be AN.

You find the bones and I will believe it and what's more make a fulsome apology for saying you were wrong.

 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 23, 2007, 08:32:45 AM
Just for the record, I'm going to give my tiresome rebuttal to the tiresome list one more time.
Many of the points raised cannot be verified one way or another so we could argue back and forth all day, based on our respective beliefs,   but here are a few comments (your numbers refer).

1.    You might look older than your years if you had just been through a world war, lack of food, cold, depression enough to make you attempt suicide and been fished out of a canal.  (that applies to whomever she was - FS or AA.)  The war alone would be enough to prematurely age people.

2.    Most of this is impossible to verify as you say,  However, the former imperial dentist had not kept moulds of their teeth.  The cast referred to in testimony was taken of AA's teeth by the Duke of Leuchtenberg and presented to the dentist..  What he  said was that he would not have left AN''s teeth "in such a condition" (which no-one said he had.)  He ALSO  did not comment on certain peculiarities of the incisors - either to say AN had them, or to say she did not. 

3.    I don't think these medical reports were raised at the trial (but I have not seen the transcripts) because no-one took the FS claim particularly seriously.  Also, just because your doctor does not keep records is not an indication as to whether or not German doctors nearly 90 years ago kept theirs, particularly when they were reporting on an accident at a munitions factory.  Maybe the factory had its own doctor and the company kept them?   

4.    Doctors who examined AA said the condition was so advanced it had to have been present from childhood.  TB of the bones (which was her breastbone and elbow, not her feet) has nothing to do with bunions - that is a red herring.. 

5.    FS has no time unaccounted for when she could have had a baby without people knowing.  Her family/friends/colleagues may have colluded to hide the fact but there is no proof of this.  A gynie exam would show from the shape of the uterus if she had had a baby.   I don't know if FS was examined in such a way at any of the hospitals she was in but there is a strong suggestion that AA was so it may have been standard procedure, after all why would they just do it to AA?

6.    Affadavits from doctors and nurses say she spoke Russian early on.  They also testified that she raved in Russian whilst under the influence of morphine.  You cannot "act" when under the influence of morphine. 

7.    I thought FS was supposed to have been taken in by Frau Wingender as an act of kindness and paid no rent.  If that is so, she would be more likely to worry about FS's whereabouts than if she was just a tenant.   If it was not so, then she might not be concerned until the rent was due. 

9.    I believe a lot of people commented on AA's amazing blue eyes, not just Mathilde.   (Also, what does Mathilde's age have to do with it?  You seem to think all elderly people have lost it mentally.)

10.    You think she was rough and unrefined but don't you think that therefore Grand Duke Andrea, Princesses Xenia and Nina, Tatiana Botkin, etc, would all know the difference between someone  who was that, and the daughter of the Tsar, whether or not they believed she was AN?    Several people who met her said they didn't know if she was AN but they knew she was "one of them" i.e. of their class.  Even today, the aristocracy can spot a faker and the gulf between classes now is not nearly as wide as it was then.

11.    Asparagus is planted at the beginning of the year - January/February indeed!
        http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/easygardening/asparagus/asparagus.html

12.    Just because FS was poor does not mean she HAD to be dirty.  Plenty of poor people were capable of bathing.  FS probably had to share a bathroom in her lodgings but there was nothing to stop her using it. 

13.    People may have been wrong about the height but a) osteoporosis occurs when you are old - AA was always 5' 2" - she was measured by the police when they fished her out of the canal  so even if she was FS she would only have been in her 20s and b)  TB of the bones has nothing to do with osteoporosis.  Red herring again!

14.    Minna Becker was a totally independent graphologist employed by the German courts.  She authenticated Anne Frank's diary.

15.    Various experts testified to this; during the second trials (in the 19602) and even after so not likely to be Nazis.  They were recognised authorities in this field - you may not see any resemblance in photos (as I have said before, that is subjective) but do you think that these experts ALL  saw an amazing resemblance when there was none at all?  There must have been some, whoever she was.

16.    You can see at least part of FS's ears, although I agree I would not have though enough to make a comparison.  However  many studies were made of AA and great pains were taken to ensure that photos were compared at the same angles, lighting etc. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 23, 2007, 08:42:03 AM
Re recognition:
 
Volkov was  recorded as having been terribly upset (he cried)  when he met AA and  not sure about her identity.  He obviously made a decision later, as Gilliard etc did.  You believe they were right in their final decision, I believe they may have been wrong. 

Cecile - she may or may not have been right but the fact that she allegedly "went eccentric" after the war (which war - first or second? and who said so?  What proof is there they were right and did they have an axe to grind) does not mean she was incapable of recognising someone at least as either a working class girl or someone of "good family", as they say.   

Botkins - we all know your opinion of Gleb there is no proof that either of them were involved in any fraud.  Tatiana especially, who was highly regarded by the Romanov family - they wanted to know what she thought when she met AA

Princess Martha - I  believe she was the Dowager Empress's niece.  She was therefore a cousin of AN - I have no idea how often they met

Lili Dehn - based her recognition partly on what she saw as a family resemblance, plus conversations.   Where was Lili's book published and in what language?  Does that give us any indication that AA could have read it?

"Zinaida Tolstoy- I really don't know this story, but she was wrong" - you don't know the story but you know she was wrong?   How certain you are!  Incidentally Zina was favourable at first until she heard the story of the baby then said "a Grand Duchess cannot have a baby by a common soldier."    She may have changed her mind again later, I don't know.

GD Andrei - was asked by the rest of the family to conduct an investigation as he was the most qualified (in a legal sense).  He had also been the Tsar's aide de camp during the war and therefore saw him  very frequently and was one of the last to see the children before the revolution, despite the fact that you seem to think  he was persona non grata. (When did Olga last see them?  Or Irene or Xenia? - I am not being facetious, I really do want to know.  I believe Olga last saw Anastasia before the war or at the beginning.)  If "that branch of the family would have been the LAST to want to see one of Nicky's kids show up" then surely he would have DENIED her identity.  This is contradictory.

The rest of the family - the Copenhagen statement was signed by only 2 people who had even seen her.  I think most of them didn't want to get involved becaus it was so contentious and they didn't want to upset the Dowager Empress. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 23, 2007, 10:00:13 AM
the same old garbage rehashed .... try to read some real historical information and you will learn the reality ... the DNA proves she was a total fraud .. there is absolutely no room for any misinterpretation there at all
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2007, 04:15:09 PM
the same old garbage rehashed .... try to read some real historical information and you will learn the reality ... the DNA proves she was a total fraud .. there is absolutely no room for any misinterpretation there at all

Exactly. I could go through and give more 'tiresome rebuttals' to all these tiresome lists, but why bother? They would only draw more tiresome lists. None of that stupid stuff about ears and shoes matters, because:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/heyfran.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)

and

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anastasiadna.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 23, 2007, 05:36:16 PM
Yes I agree the DNA tests did prove that Anna Anderson was a fraud after she died ! Everyone should have known that she was a fraud because she did not look anything like Anastasia they identified her a peasant from a small hut I think it was in Poland. She did not know any russian either or english.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 23, 2007, 06:02:09 PM
It is all so obvious. Thanks Annie for yet again showing the reality of the fraud.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 23, 2007, 06:19:28 PM
Perhaps it's just me, but it appears that this thread has become  particularly mean spirited.

Jack Manahan was a well loved Charlottesville eccentric, and as he's not around to defend himself any longer, it appears to be particularly cruel to cast aspersions on him because of his choice of marital partner. From what I am given to understand, he and AA were an affectionate couple, although it appears not a traditional twosome.

Dr. Manahan was not simply a "teacher", he was a well regarded historian and geneologist.

For your information, there are age differences between many married couples, and a large age difference does not necessarily mean someone is weird.

While forensic evidence has proven that AA was not Anastasia, I don't think it is necessary to constantly vent one's spleen about the woman or those with whom she was associated.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Greenowl on July 23, 2007, 06:29:53 PM
Why does Dmitri keep repeating the same thing like a broken record? Has he/she/it nothing more interesting to contribute than boring repetition?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 23, 2007, 06:51:11 PM
Greenowl the really boring ones are the ones who perpetuate the lies about the fraud AA in spite of all the evidence that proves beyond a doubt that she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 23, 2007, 06:54:15 PM
Yes let them both rest in peace in death. At least the real identity has been exposed. That was something both of them lied about in life.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2007, 09:07:10 PM
Greenowl the really boring ones are the ones who perpetuate the lies about the fraud AA in spite of all the evidence that proves beyond a doubt that she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia. 

I was going to say the same thing. If there's anything that's redundant and tiring around here, it's the same old lists of ears, shoes, teeth, and so forth that are supposed to still mean AA could be AN despite the DNA. That's why I have a beaten dead horse for an avatar, and I can't take him down until the nonsense stops.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 23, 2007, 09:44:10 PM
Greenowl the really boring ones are the ones who perpetuate the lies about the fraud AA in spite of all the evidence that proves beyond a doubt that she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia. 
I know right, why would people still refuse to believe that Anastasia was never Anna Anderson I mean it is true, Anasatsia was never Anna Anderson she was only a fraud. Yet, people want to still want to continue making it so. Her features are totally different from Anastasia. What else is there to say to convince others that Anna was not Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Belochka on July 23, 2007, 10:42:52 PM
Greenowl the really boring ones are the ones who perpetuate the lies about the fraud AA in spite of all the evidence that proves beyond a doubt that she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia. 

... That's why I have a beaten dead horse for an avatar, and I can't take him down until the nonsense stops.

Annie you may have to turn your poor horse around and start with the other side. I predict that it will be a long tedious ride back to reality.

Margarita  ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 24, 2007, 12:05:03 AM
Yes let them both rest in peace in death. At least the real identity has been exposed. That was something both of them lied about in life.

It's quite possible that AA lied about her identity - it's also possible that she really believed after so many years that she was ANR. And, I know of no evidence at all that Dr. Manahan lied - he was told she was Anastasia and this is what he apparently believed.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Belochka on July 24, 2007, 12:46:58 AM

It's quite possible that AA lied about her identity

Only possible? Do you still have doubts Lisa? :o

And, I know of no evidence at all that Dr. Manahan lied - he was told she was Anastasia and this is what he apparently believed.

Dr. Manahan was not simply a "teacher", he was a well regarded historian and geneologist.

Yet the man had claimed that he was Nikolai II's son in-law. That must surely be his most notable lie? ???

For a well regarded (by whom?) historian to BELIEVE in his wife's lies leaves one rather perplexed why he failed to research the matter himself.  ::)

Margarita   
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 24, 2007, 01:17:04 AM

It's quite possible that AA lied about her identity

Only possible? Do you still have doubts Lisa? :o

And, I know of no evidence at all that Dr. Manahan lied - he was told she was Anastasia and this is what he apparently believed.

Dr. Manahan was not simply a "teacher", he was a well regarded historian and geneologist.

Yet the man had claimed that he was Nikolai II's son in-law. That must surely be his most notable lie? ???

For a well regarded (by whom?) historian to BELIEVE in his wife's lies leaves one rather perplexed why he failed to research the matter himself.  ::)

Margarita   

Hi Margarita:

I know of no evidence that Dr. Manahan ever disbelieved his wife's (untrue) contention that she was the Grand Duchess. Therefore, if this is true, I know of no reason to call the man a liar.

He was well regarded by many in Charlottesville and at the University of Virginia. Had he researched his wife prior to marrying her (and I don't know if he did or didn't), he would have found that some people did believe her prior to DNA testing, so I fail to see how this can be criticized.

I have no idea if AA was lying or deluded. Do I doubt that she was a liar? Honestly, I am no expert on her or mental health, but if pressed for an answer, I would say (my opinion only) she was probably mentally ill and delusional. But, I could be wrong.

Lisa
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Louis_Charles on July 24, 2007, 12:31:04 PM
Jack Manahan was arguably a number of things, some good and some bad, just like everyone else. No one who knew him ever called him a "liar". There is a great deal of information available about him in the archives of the DAILY PROGRESS, the Charlottesville newspaper, and there are plenty of people still walking around who knew him. As I have said before, I saw Manahan and his wife with my own eyes many times. He was affectionate to her in public; indeed, it could be said he doted upon her. Before one assumes that he did this because he believed she was Anastasia Nicholaevna --- which he did --- he was also polite to the various waitresses, waiters, students and visitors with whom I saw him engage. He was polite to me, for instance,  and he had no reason to be. In the South, we refer to people like that as "gentlemen".
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 24, 2007, 12:34:20 PM
IMO, Manahan sincerely believed that his wife was the Grand Duchess and he himself was the imperial son-in-law... I don't think he would have married her if he even suspected otherwise. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 24, 2007, 01:36:33 PM
I don't think he would have married her if he even suspected otherwise.

He sure wouldn't have married FS as herself, but that's who he got! ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 24, 2007, 01:39:49 PM
Greenowl the really boring ones are the ones who perpetuate the lies about the fraud AA in spite of all the evidence that proves beyond a doubt that she was not Grand Duchess Anastasia. 

... That's why I have a beaten dead horse for an avatar, and I can't take him down until the nonsense stops.

Annie you may have to turn your poor horse around and start with the other side. I predict that it will be a long tedious ride back to reality.

Margarita  ;)

That's true, and if that long ride back to reality is on bear's 'road to truth' it will never go anywhere but in circles :P

Poor horse :(
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 24, 2007, 01:48:27 PM
He only married her because he thought she was Anastasia?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 24, 2007, 02:19:36 PM
He only married her because he thought she was Anastasia?

Why, yes. I believe he even made her sign some affidavit to that effect before he married her. The reasons for the marriage were two sided, it seems. For him, it was so that he could proclaim that he was the son-in-law of the Tsar;  for her: I believe that it was so she could stay in the US legally (and probably also have someone financially support her)... Later they apparently developed some form of affection for each other, as Simon reports witnessing, but it didn't seem a what you would call "traditional" marriage. It worked out beautifully, I think. Jack Manahan died believing he belonged to the Russian imperial family, and Anna/Franciszka had a place to live and food on her table for the rest of her life, as well as some sort of social standing in the community, without having to lift a finger... It was a great arrangement, if you ask me. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: G_Lermontov on July 24, 2007, 02:52:08 PM
Quote
Dr. Manahan was not simply a "teacher", he was a well regarded historian and geneologist.

Really?  Robert Massie paints a different picture in The Romanovs:  The Final Chapter:


Quote
On one occasion, Manahan told a gathering that his wife was a descendant of Genghis Khan; subsequently, he added Ferdinand and Isabella to her ancestral tree.  In 1974, he sent out a nine-thousand word Christmas card entitled "Anastasia's Money and the Tsar's Wealth", in which he accused Franklin D. Roosevelt of aiding the Marxist conspiracy to communize the world and described an episode at the end of World War II in Europe as the arrival of "American negroes with leveled guns"

Combined with everything else we know about John Manahan, he seems like just another lunatic.  A harmless lunatic perhaps, but a lunatic all the same. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 24, 2007, 03:09:55 PM
I don't want to sound disrespectful to the deceased, but I think it's safe to comment that Mr Manahan wasn't really playing with a full deck...

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 24, 2007, 05:50:17 PM
Thanks for the information Helen, so he died thinking that he was apart of the imperial family when realy he wasn't. The reason for the choice he made was not too wise, it was rather crazy.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Johnny on July 24, 2007, 06:20:54 PM

Annie you may have to turn your poor horse around and start with the other side. I predict that it will be a long tedious ride back to reality.

Margarita  ;)

LOL!

BTW, who needs to see any ears or shoes to realize that the two pictures posted above by Annie are of the one and same person.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Belochka on July 24, 2007, 06:42:14 PM
I don't want to sound disrespectful to the deceased, but I think it's safe to comment that Mr Manahan wasn't really playing with a full deck...

Indeed, the King and Queen were missing.

Margarita :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Louis_Charles on July 24, 2007, 07:06:22 PM
Do we really want to laugh at mental illness? It seems rather harsh.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 25, 2007, 01:02:31 AM
I tend to think nobody is laughing at either of them. It is just all very bizarre.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Belochka on July 25, 2007, 06:07:56 AM
I tend to think nobody is laughing at either of them. It is just all very bizarre.

Indeed Dmitri no one is laughing at all. They were a tragic couple fixated by grand delusions.

Margarita   8)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Louis_Charles on July 25, 2007, 02:17:49 PM
Ah, glad to hear it. I was misled by the icon on your original post, Margarita. I just scrolled it up and realized that you weren't meaning to laugh, you were meaning to be cheesy.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 25, 2007, 02:58:28 PM
The whole thing is rather sad really. Manahan was a mentally ill man who, in a sense, was another victim of Anna Anderson's scam (albeit a very enthusiastic one) - whether she herself realized it was a scam or was delusional - it was a scam nevertheless... Although in a way, he did get out of it what he wanted, i.e. to be able to say that he was part of the imperial family...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Belochka on July 25, 2007, 07:58:52 PM
Ah, glad to hear it. I was misled by the icon on your original post, Margarita. I just scrolled it up and realized that you weren't meaning to laugh, you were meaning to be cheesy.

Glad we clear the air Simon.

Margarita :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 26, 2007, 02:43:52 PM
The topic is Anna Anderson, not whether or not we should be discussing her. Because the topic exists, it is clearly okay to discuss her. Kindly return to topic.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 27, 2007, 04:00:40 PM
Anna Anderson's real year of birth was 1900 right? I heard this somewhere?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 27, 2007, 04:21:45 PM
Anna Anderson's real year of birth was 1900 right? I heard this somewhere?

That's on wikipedia but it's wrong. AA was born in 1896 as Franziska Schanskowska. She was actually 5 years older than the real Anastasia would have been.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 27, 2007, 04:42:26 PM
Anna Anderson's real year of birth was 1900 right? I heard this somewhere?


Oh, she was born in 1896 thanks for the info Annie she is older than Maria and Tatiana! Yeah she is 5 years older than the real Anastasia. Yes, I saw her date of birth as 1900 on wikipedia they were mistaken.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 27, 2007, 05:52:58 PM
Yes she was more Tatiana's age, and since the first one she was said to be was Tatiana it matched better since she looked more like her and was more her age. She had to switch to Anastasia when Baroness Buxoevedon came to see her and said she was too short to be Tatiana. But she never looked like Anastasia. I wonder how she'd have done with her claim pretending to be Tatiana all along. There are birth records for FS, who was AA, born in 1896 in the Pomerania region of Poland.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 27, 2007, 05:59:47 PM
Yes but Anna Anderson was shorter than Tatiana but in the 1920's photo's of her she was claiming to be 19. She did not look anything like a teenager it look more to me like a woman in her 30's she looks rather unattractive to be so called 19, she looked older anyway. Anna Anderson was realy 24.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 27, 2007, 06:26:50 PM
Tatiana was about 5'7" and Anastasia 5'2" like AA.  I really think that's the big reason she switched, since AN was the only one of her height, after Sophie exposed her. She probably would have taken up pretending to be any of OTMA if somebody would believe it. There's also a story that when she was still "Miss Unknown" someone asked her her age and she told them to guess. When they guessed 30, she looked offended and said 'no, not so very old!' Her mugshots look much older than the 24 she was, and look nothing like Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 27, 2007, 06:50:55 PM
Yes I totally agree with you Annie! Anna Anderson does look much older than she realy is that mug shot of her looks nothing like 24 year old more like 10-15 years older. Plus, Anastasia looked so much beautiful in her looks and appearances to me she looked about two years younger than her real age. Anastasia has much beautiful and much more younger and attractive features that Anna Anderson did the point is they did not look nothing like each other. I suppose Anderson would do all this just for attention and fame. The real Anastasia would have been mad about people pretending to be her only for attention.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 30, 2007, 06:14:15 PM
AA claimed she was GD Anastasia.  She NEVER claimed to be  Tatiana.   This is a myth which Annie continues to post even though she is aware that  AA NEVER claimed to be Tatiana.

It was Clara Peuthert, who was, also,  a patient at Dalldorf and who had gotten it in her head that AA was Tatiana,  and,  if  AA disagreed,  she howled and made a fuss, so it was Peuthert who went to Capt. Schwabe and told him that AA was Tatiana.  Please,  do not mix the two Dalldorf patients'  claims.

Yes she was more Tatiana's age, and since the first one she was said to be was Tatiana it matched better since she looked more like her and was more her age. She had to switch to Anastasia when Baroness Buxoevedon came to see her and said she was too short to be Tatiana. But she never looked like Anastasia. I wonder how she'd have done with her claim pretending to be Tatiana all along. There are birth records for FS, who was AA, born in 1896 in the Pomerania region of Poland.

Over on the thread which is FS's Timeline,  you'll find  FS  birth dates,  place and family information.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 30, 2007, 07:50:20 PM
AA claimed she was GD Anastasia.  She NEVER claimed to be  Tatiana.   This is a myth which Annie continues to post even though she is aware that  AA NEVER claimed to be Tatiana.

It was Clara Peuthert, who was, also,  a patient at Dalldorf and who had gotten it in her head that AA was Tatiana,  and,  if  AA disagreed,  she howled and made a fuss, so it was Peuthert who went to Capt. Schwabe and told him that AA was Tatiana.  Please,  do not mix the two Dalldorf patients'  claims.



This is a load of crap bear has been dragging around for years. This is why every time I mention this, I always word it 'was SAID to be Tatiana' not 'she said she was Tatiana.' However, this changes nothing. The fact is, the first time AA was said to be a daughter of the Tsar, the first time people came to see her because of it, the Grand Duchess was Tatiana, not Anastasia. Another mental patient found a picture of the IF in a magazine and told AA she looked like Tatiana. AA did NOTHING to deny this! She allowed people to come see her based on this theory. She never denied it and got upset over it until AFTER Sophie B. pronounced her 'too short to be Tatiana'. This is all right in Kurth's book, I think about page 25!

The story continues that after she was denounced as Tatiana, someone gave her a piece of paper and she marked off all the names of OTMA except Anastasia- conveniently enough, the only one of her height! Though her face never looked anything like Anastasia, where she had reasonably resembled Tatiana due to her wide mouth, something AN didn't have.

Also over and over again, ardent AA supporters will tell you that AA had several months before told a nurse that she was AN. There is really NO evidence of this, other than one nurse's testimony, and she was unsure of her own dates! As time passes, people forget exactly which month or even year things happened in, so by the time she made her statement, the nurse very likely could have not remembered exactly when (if  it even happened, and I wonder about that) this 'confession' took place. For me, I find it very hard to believe that, after the fuss made of her after it came to light she was a GD, that if it had happened before, it would have remained hushed until a nutter came forward calling her Tatiana? No, I do NOT believe AA claimed to be AN before Clara called her Tatiana.


Here is an excerpt from a letter by said nurse on the incidient, sent to me by a friend in a PM. You can see she contradicts her own dates, saying the original date she gave of 1922 was wrong and must have been a misprint. I do not believe that, I think she said it was 22 because originally it was, but the AA crowd told her she had to backdate it to predate the 1921 'coming out' of AA as AN!

"Berlin-Schöneberg, 27-9-27
No. 7, Gothaerstrasse
c/o Schmager

Kurt Pastenaci
Berlin S.W.48
Friedrichstrasse, 218 II.

Dear Mr. Pastenaci,

I am prepared at any time to depose on oath in Court that Mrs. Chaikovski said to me, in 1921, when I was on night duty, a few months after I entered the service of the institution, that she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia.

As the manuscript sent to the Nachtausgabe was not restored to me, for the credit of that journal I can only surmise, either that, by an oversight, I wrote 1922 instead of 1921, or that the mistake was due to a printer's error in the Nachtausgabe.

(Signed) Mrs. Dr. Chemnitz, nee Malinovski. "


This date switch controversy is very, very suspect to me, and even so, this is ONE person's word, only one, and it really doesn't hold much value in the long run. I hold to my belief that in reality, no mention was made of AA being a Romanov until the day Clara showed her the picture. If she had, much more would have been made of it. I stand by my opinion.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on July 30, 2007, 09:49:33 PM
...[in part]....

"Berlin-Schöneberg, 27-9-27
No. 7, Gothaerstrasse
c/o Schmager

Kurt Pastenaci
Berlin S.W.48
Friedrichstrasse, 218 II.

Dear Mr. Pastenaci,

I am prepared at any time to depose on oath in Court that Mrs. Chaikovski said to me, in 1921, when I was on night duty, a few months after I entered the service of the institution, that she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia.

As the manuscript sent to the Nachtausgabe was not restored to me, for the credit of that journal I can only surmise, either that, by an oversight, I wrote 1922 instead of 1921, or that the mistake was due to a printer's error in the Nachtausgabe.

(Signed) Mrs. Dr. Chemnitz, nee Malinovski. "


This date switch controversy is very, very suspect to me, and even so, this is ONE person's word, only one, and it really doesn't hold much value in the long run. I hold to my belief that in reality, no mention was made of AA being a Romanov until the day Clara showed her the picture. If she had, much more would have been made of it. I stand by my opinion.



This seems quite clear to me:

[quote[
..... by an oversight, I wrote 1922 instead of 1921, or that the mistake was due to a printer's error in the Nachtausgabe...[/quote]

Seems to me she was being generous by not making claims that Nachtausgabe had misquoted her and that she was correcting the date from 1922 to 1921.

I truly don't see  how Annie can find this as evidence that she was lying or changing her original story.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 30, 2007, 10:24:02 PM
AGR Bear it is quite evident over repeated entries tbat you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia. This has been totally disproven. Give it a rest please as this has been rehashed so many times it is incredibly boring. You are flogging a very dead horse. DNA evidence has proved Anna Anderson was in no way related to any of the Romanovs or their relatives. I believe this topic should be locked off completely as there were no survivors. This topic only appeals to those who are deluded and continue to push a proven falsehood.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 30, 2007, 10:34:58 PM
I would recommend this topic be locked off as there is nowhere further it can go.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Foxglove on July 30, 2007, 11:34:27 PM
Although it was estimated that Anastasia was about 5'2" at the time of her death, seeing as how her sisters were at least at, or over the height of 5'4", and Nicholas and Alexandra were also taller than 5'2", wouldn't it be logical to assume that Anastasia would also grow to a height of at least 5'4"? ??? Had she lived, it might not have necessarily been true (she could have remained at that height), but I do wonder why it was assumed that this was the height Anastasia stayed at by AA supporters.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 12:18:04 AM
Very interesting, Foxglove! I never thought of that, but it's true, if AN had lived, she may have grown to be taller than 5'2" by the time she was 20.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 31, 2007, 03:33:29 AM
Yes there is no evidence whatsoever that Anastasia did not grow physically during her time in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg. This would put paid to Dr.Maples and his claim that Anastasia's remains were not found in the grave.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 31, 2007, 04:01:11 AM
Yes there is no evidence whatsoever that Anastasia did not grow physically during her time in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg. This would put paid to Dr.Maples and his claim that Anastasia's remains were not found in the grave.

Unfortunately for this theory, Anastasia was still short when they left Tobolsk.  It is not likely that she would grow 3 or even 4 inches during her three months in Ekaterinberg.  It is also likely if she had shot up so much  in such a short period, that Alexandra would have noted this in her diaries.  Don't forget that the skeleton the Russians said was Anastasia  is around 5'5' or taller.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 31, 2007, 04:19:40 AM

Letter from Mrs Chemnitz - this is very clear about the date she first met AA and it could obviously be checked when Mrs Chemnitz began work at the hospital.   This plainly shows that AA claimed to be Anastasia from the beginning and did not switch her story.   

Berlin-Schöneberg, 27-9-27

No. 7, Gothaerstrasse
c/o Schmager

Kurt Pastenaci
Berlin S.W.48
Friedrichstrasse, 218 II.

Dear Mr. Pastenaci,
In reply to your letter of 26th September of this year, I have to inform you that I took the post as sister in the asylum at Dalldorf on 21st July, 1921, and made the acquaintance of Mrs. Chaikovski on the very first day of my appointment, the date of commencement of my appointment. The date of commencement of my appointment may be seen on my testimonial. The service book of House 4 of the Dalldorf Asylum - naturally assuming that it was kept regularly by the sister-in-charge - must contain the entry that I was appointed from 21st July, 1921, to "B, upstairs," of the section for docile patients. From the records relating to Mrs. Chaikovski, it must be verifiable that, in the summer of 1921, she was in "B, upstairs."
I am prepared at any time to depose on oath in Court that Mrs. Chaikovski said to me, in 1921, when I was on night duty, a few months after I entered the service of the institution, that she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia.
This statement surprised me greatly, because, since 1920, a whole staff of police officers had been trying in vain to identify her. She had been photographed and filmed, addressed in every language, measurements had been taken of her head, whe width of her face, her hands and feet; but no success had attended the efforts of the identification department. During her stay at Dalldorf, Mrs. Chaikovski's demeanour was not that of a working woman, but that of a lady belonging to the highest social circles.
As the manuscript sent to the Nachtausgabe was not restored to me, for the credit of that journal I can only surmise, either that, by an oversight, I wrote 1922 instead of 1921, or that the mistake was due to a printer's error in the Nachtausgabe.
However, since the records of the institution prove that Miss Peuthert did not become a patient until 1922, it is incomprehensible to me how the Nachtausgabe could entirely ignore my testimony, and represent Miss Peuthert as the person who suggested to the Unknown that she was the Grand Duchess Anastasia. Even the ex-Imperial tutor, Mr. Gilliard, represents Miss Peuthert, a former patient of the Dalldorf Institute, as the originator of the Anastasia legend, and speaks of a terrible danger which he believes his alleged discovery happily averted.
To conclude, the Nachtausgabe will never make anybody believe that the pictures it published of the working woman Frantsiska Shantskovska represent Mrs. Chaikovski in any phrase of her life. Or are we to believe that the Nachtausgabe is better informed than the officials of the identification department of the Berlin police?
Naturally, I authorize you to publish my reply.
(Signed) Mrs. Dr. Chemnitz, nee Malmovski.



Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 31, 2007, 06:08:38 AM
I completly agree, there are still people trying to prove that Anastasia was Anna Anderson, yes I think their was not survivors either. The topic does need to be locked, because some continue to talk about AA being A. DNA helps prove lots of things that are true and false. People just continue ignoring it and believing what they think. Obviously, we can not just get these people to believe that AA was not A they just have to figure it out themselves.

AGR Bear it is quite evident over repeated entries tbat you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia. This has been totally disproven. Give it a rest please as this has been rehashed so many times it is incredibly boring. You are flogging a very dead horse. DNA evidence has proved Anna Anderson was in no way related to any of the Romanovs or their relatives. I believe this topic should be locked off completely as there were no survivors. This topic only appeals to those who are deluded and continue to push a proven falsehood.


Yes there is no evidence whatsoever that Anastasia did not grow physically during her time in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg. This would put paid to Dr.Maples and his claim that Anastasia's remains were not found in the grave.


Unfortunately for this theory, Anastasia was still short when they left Tobolsk.  It is not likely that she would grow 3 or even 4 inches during her three months in Ekaterinberg.  It is also likely if she had shot up so much  in such a short period, that Alexandra would have noted this in her diaries.  Don't forget that the skeleton the Russians said was Anastasia  is around 5'5' or taller.


I fought the skeleton that the russians claimed the skeleton Anastasia was 5 ft and 7 inches tall? Since the bones were incomplete were uncertain what height Anastasia was realy.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 06:50:20 AM
Yes there is no evidence whatsoever that Anastasia did not grow physically during her time in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg. This would put paid to Dr.Maples and his claim that Anastasia's remains were not found in the grave.

Unfortunately for this theory, Anastasia was still short when they left Tobolsk.  It is not likely that she would grow 3 or even 4 inches during her three months in Ekaterinberg.  It is also likely if she had shot up so much  in such a short period, that Alexandra would have noted this in her diaries.  Don't forget that the skeleton the Russians said was Anastasia  is around 5'5' or taller.



I got the impression that Foxglove was trying to say she could have grown taller over time, not only those months, so why do AA supporters brag about AA's height as being the same as AN's when she may have been taller by then. My Dad was 5'9" at 18, 6'1" at 21.  I had a friend in high school, a guy who grew six inches over one summer. At the end of the year I was looking down on him, when school started again in Sept. I had to look up.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 06:54:48 AM
DNA helps prove lots of things that are true and false. People just continue ignoring it and believing what they think. Obviously, we can not just get these people to believe that AA was not A they just have to figure it out themselves.

Sadly, a certain small faction of them never will figure it out no matter what, because they don't want to believe she wasn't AN. I can't understand why it's so important to them, but it's never going to be true and everyone's time is wasted. My poor horse. :-\

Perhaps this is the problem!

Beliefnet Horoscope

"Thoughts become distorted"

July 30, 2007 

 
Today's Outlook: We are still being buzzed by the electric Aquarius Moon, yet we may not know how to keep the energy moving in a positive direction today. The Sun's intelligent quintile to forceful Mars adds a creative flair to whatever we do. Nevertheless, it's hard to maintain a rational perspective as Mercury the Messenger creates an irritating quincunx with spacey Neptune, distorting our thoughts on what's right in front of us. Today, logic only takes us so far.

Apparently some AA supporters are like this, all the time! I guess pesky Mercury and Neptune are in on the conspiracy theory!  :D It's all in the stars, who knew? ::) ;)

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 07:09:47 AM
Thank you all! Those pictures are really pretty damning :D AA=FS!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/heyfran.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)

Locked or not, it would be great if there were a way to sticky this post, showing the obvious likeness of AA and FS who were the same person, for anyone stopping by with any doubt or questions so they can put them to rest :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 31, 2007, 07:39:29 AM
The photos show up the fraud for what she was. Even Blind Freddie could see she bears no resemblance whatsoever to the real Anastasia who died in the Ipatiev House.
Yes, of course those pictures show that she does not look like Anastasia at all. It is a completly different person that shows that she is a pretender and imposter.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 31, 2007, 08:42:39 AM


Locked or not, it would be great if there were a way to sticky this post, showing the obvious likeness of AA and FS who were the same person, for anyone stopping by with any doubt or questions so they can put them to rest :)


Fine, as long as you include these  two in it as well  to show a different likeness ....


   (http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa275/ferrymansdaughter/Picture1.png)


Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 08:54:12 AM
The pics used by AA supporters are mostly one posed specifically to try to look like AN, especially the lip biting ones. Other tricks are getting her from angles where it's darker on her face so you can't see the detail, or hiding part of it (like the famous boa pics) When you look at the mugshots of AA/FS you can see she looks nothing at all like AN, because at that time she wasn't pretending yet, and no one was posing her.

Another big joke is when they attempt to match AA up to pics that are supposed to show a 'family resemblance' to the Dowager Empress, Xenia or Olga. This is pointless, since the real AN favored none of them!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 31, 2007, 09:02:32 AM
Spot on once again Annie. Give it a rest Ferrymansdaughter and do some reading about the DNA testing. It is used every day and is never questioned as it is so accurate.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 31, 2007, 10:36:29 AM
The pics used by AA supporters are mostly one posed specifically to try to look like AN, especially the lip biting ones. Other tricks are getting her from angles where it's darker on her face so you can't see the detail, or hiding part of it (like the famous boa pics) When you look at the mugshots of AA/FS you can see she looks nothing at all like AN, because at that time she wasn't pretending yet, and no one was posing her.

Another big joke is when they attempt to match AA up to pics that are supposed to show a 'family resemblance' to the Dowager Empress, Xenia or Olga. This is pointless, since the real AN favored none of them!

What lip biting?  What dark angles?  Which part of her face is hidden?  Are you even looking at the  photos I just posted?  Or  are you  saying that you cannot see ANY resemblance between these two people?    What was it Dmitri said about Blind Freddie?  or as usual are you avoiding the question when someone posts something that might make you get your head out of the sand?


Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on July 31, 2007, 12:21:25 PM
The pics used by AA supporters are mostly one posed specifically to try to look like AN, especially the lip biting ones. Other tricks are getting her from angles where it's darker on her face so you can't see the detail, or hiding part of it (like the famous boa pics) When you look at the mugshots of AA/FS you can see she looks nothing at all like AN, because at that time she wasn't pretending yet, and no one was posing her.

Another big joke is when they attempt to match AA up to pics that are supposed to show a 'family resemblance' to the Dowager Empress, Xenia or Olga. This is pointless, since the real AN favored none of them!
I agree with you! Sometimes the pictures maybe digitally edit to make the pictures look more like AA. Maybe thats what people did to try to convince others that Anastasia was Anna Anderson. Yes, Anastasia did not favor Xenia, Olga, or Empress Marie, she favor her mother empress Alix. I still do not see the resemblence in these pictures your comparing two people that look nothing like either at all from the one's Annie posted much earlier. The one's ferrysmansdaughter posted I think it was digitally edit. Anna Anderson's face I think was digitally edit to look more like Anastasia to get people to believe that AA was Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 02:39:09 PM


What lip biting?

You want me to go dig out all the ones where FS/AA is obviously sucking in or chomping down on her big, fat, wide lips to make them look like AN's small, thin ones?

Quote
What dark angles?

MANY of the pics that were on Kurth's (now for some reason) downed site were full of pics clearly posed to resemble a particular picture/pose of AN, and with the shadows and dark lighting on certain ones, you can't really tell the detail to match the features like you can in the face forward ones of FS and AA I posted. But of course, AA supporters want it that way, they're trying to create an illusion, and doubt, because there's nothing really there.

Quote
Which part of her face is hidden?

Usually the side, like in the boa pictures. Sometimes they cut off the chin, since AA/FS's chin was short and flat, AN's longer and ovally rounded on the bottom.

Quote
Are you even looking at the  photos I just posted?  Or  are you  saying that you cannot see ANY resemblance between these two people?

Two people is right, not the same person! Yes I do see some similarities!
*they both have their heads turned sideways and look like they're talking on a telephone
*they both seem to have brown hair, of course, you can't tell in a b&w photo
*they are both females

That's it. None of the features are the same, and the chin is a glaring difference especially.

Quote
or as usual are you avoiding the question when someone posts something that might make you get your head out of the sand?




Har de har, I have seen them ALL, Kurth's site, lots of books, countless pics posted here, I've seen it all for many years ,and that's why I have come to the conclusions I have. AA and AN look nothing alike, but some pics are posed to match an angle or an expression in a pic of AN to try to fool people AT FIRST GLANCE  and with a heavily intended 'power of suggestion/persuasion' but I have been picking these things to pieces for many years and you can't hornswaggle me.

And talk about head in the sand, look at the FS and AA ones I posted again. ALL the features and the bone structure and even the hair part are an exact match. No need for mirrors or a crumbling house of cards.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 31, 2007, 06:31:17 PM
Annie there's no point trying to convince Ferrymansdaughter. This person is an AA supporter. It is so blatantly obvious from their posts. 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on July 31, 2007, 06:38:56 PM
smile Annie!!!!!! No doubt the real Anastasia finds these Anna Anderson supporters hilarious when she looks down from heaven!!! Poor Anna Anderson must be very lonely discovering none of the real Romanovs want to know her and actually coming across the real Anastasia telling her off!!! ... what a mistake to make!!!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ChatNoir on July 31, 2007, 07:09:33 PM
Listen to Annie and Dmitri, the two girls are right. AA and AN look nothing like each other.

 (http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia2.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 07:36:36 PM
AA and AN look nothing like each other.

 (http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia2.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D

He's been sending me this pic for days. This is a perfect example of how a pic was intentionally posed with the purpose of imitating a particular pic and pose and expression of AN, and relying on the dark shadowy parts of the pic to hide the fact that the faces really don't match up at all. It's also one of the most laughable lip biting pics, you can see her squeeze them in and under and chomp them down! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to address this on the open forum!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: G_Lermontov on July 31, 2007, 10:19:09 PM
That was the pic that always made me think that maybe they were the same person.  On first glance, they do look remarkably alike.  When you look closer, you can see how she's clearly trying to hide her lips, which are fairly distinctive and very different from Anastasia Nicholaievna's.  You can see her lower teeth bulging out, and I defy anyone to smile naturally and achieve that result.  I remember reading how AA had a habit of using her hand to hider her lower face, which Peter Kurth and other supporters attribute to shyness or bad teeth.  I think that AA knew it was best for her to hide as much of her face as possible.  Come to think of it, she always seemed to be hiding under sheets or the like in the early days, before she became more confident with her acting, when she was presented with people who knew AN. 

Poor girl, must have been the trauma of the night at Ipatiev....



Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2007, 11:52:03 PM
On first glance, they do look remarkably alike.

On first glance is the key, and what they're aiming for. It's like a body double in a movie, she can be made up to look and stand like an actress, and for a few seconds nobody notices. The pictures of AA posed to look like AN were done so with this goal, that AT FIRST GLANCE. with a heavy power of suggestion, people would accept it and not question it further.

Quote
When you look closer, you can see how she's clearly trying to hide her lips, which are fairly distinctive and very different from Anastasia Nicholaievna's.  You can see her lower teeth bulging out, and I defy anyone to smile naturally and achieve that result.

Oh yes, I see them! I tried this with my own mouth,  and it hurt! She had to have been sucking those lips in even harder than I thought!

 
Quote
I remember reading how AA had a habit of using her hand to hider her lower face, which Peter Kurth and other supporters attribute to shyness or bad teeth.  I think that AA knew it was best for her to hide as much of her face as possible.   

She, and even her supporters, had to know that the lower part of her face was her downfall. She had those thick, shapeless lips and wide mouth, while AN had thin, shapely lips and a very small mouth. AN's chin was longer and rounded in an oval shape, FS/AA's shorter and flat. She knew this, that's why she hid it. They tried to use the eyes to fool people, presumably they were a similar color, though from what I've seen in pictures, AN's were smaller, closer set, much more heavily lidded and the brows were different. Noses, most people don't pay much mind to noses, so they focused on the eyes, thought the nose would pass, and hid the obvious difference, the lower face, mouth and chin. This also proves it was premeditated, and AA/FS, at least in the early days, was doing it on purpose.

Quote
Come to think of it, she always seemed to be hiding under sheets or the like in the early days, before she became more confident with her acting, when she was presented with people who knew AN.

LOL, that's right, if someone had been very close to AN, she hid her whole body under the sheets!

I agree she became more confident in her acting, after much help from her coaches and supporters. Then over time she likely went off the deep end and believed she was AN.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Aine on July 31, 2007, 11:55:41 PM
AA and AN look nothing like each other.

 (http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia2.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D

He's been sending me this pic for days. This is a perfect example of how a pic was intentionally posed with the purpose of imitating a particular pic and pose and expression of AN, and relying on the dark shadowy parts of the pic to hide the fact that the faces really don't match up at all. It's also one of the most laughable lip biting pics, you can see her squeeze them in and under and chomp them down! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to address this on the open forum!

Even these pictures - which some claim show a resemblance - clearly don't. The lips have completely different ratios to the face, the cheeks are easily distinguished and, while the lighting and angle may make it slightly more difficult to discern, the chin and brow bone are not particularly similar. If you look beyond the shared (imitated?) EXPRESSION, it's obvious these two women have completely different features.

However, I don't even understand why this is being allowed to continue in such a manner; even if they looked like twins, the DNA evidence is irrefutable.  ???
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 01, 2007, 04:12:37 AM
Annie there's no point trying to convince Ferrymansdaughter. This person is an AA supporter. It is so blatantly obvious from their posts. 

HER posts actually - I would have thought that was obvious from my name.  And gosh, my "shameful secret" is out ..:D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 01, 2007, 04:33:22 AM
AA and AN look nothing like each other.

 (http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia2.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D
!

Even these pictures - which some claim show a resemblance - clearly don't. The lips have completely different ratios to the face, the cheeks are easily distinguished and, while the lighting and angle may make it slightly more difficult to discern, the chin and brow bone are not particularly similar. If you look beyond the shared (imitated?) EXPRESSION, it's obvious these two women have completely different features.

However, I don't even understand why this is being allowed to continue in such a manner; even if they looked like twins, the DNA evidence is irrefutable.  ???

The chin in both these photos is identical.  Regarding the brow bone, AN is wearing a headscarf pulled low and  has a fringe  so you can't see her brow properly and what does "The lips have completely different ratios to the face" mean?  Look at the distance from the lips to the nose - it's the same.  Also, this  is a photographic comparison thread, that is why it is "being allowed to continue in such a manner".  If you want to talk DNA, go to the DNA thread and discuss why DNA evidence is often contested and not just in this case.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 07:44:25 AM

The chin in both these photos is identical.

AA and AN's chins are FAR from 'identical.' You may think they appear that way in this one comparison due to the angles and the shadows, but they're not at all the same.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanjaw.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aaanfront.jpg)


Quote
Regarding the brow bone, AN is wearing a headscarf pulled low and  has a fringe  so you can't see her brow properly

Convenient for you, huh, since there are no pictures of Anastasia without bangs, other than the bald ones, and then she has no hairline at all? The scarf and bangs hide how very different AN's head really was from AA's and you supporters like to use that to your advantage. It's not working anymore.

Just look at AA here, in her mugshots, before she started pretending to be AN or getting posed like her. NO resemblance AT ALL in any way shape or form to the real AN!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anastasia.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 01, 2007, 08:48:16 AM
Yes it is all rather pathetic how he cannot accept reality. Anderson was a fraud and the photographic evidence and DNA proved it. There's nothing to debate. I guess some people need their eyes tested as Anderson's eyes looked nothing like the real Anastasia.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ChatNoir on August 01, 2007, 08:53:03 AM
Again, listen to Annie and Dmitri, those two girls got it right all along. AA and FS look like twins. Especially after Gilliard's, as Annie says, outlining of the features of FS.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/AAandFS.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 01, 2007, 09:03:44 AM
Yes Anna Anderson looks so much like the real Anastasia in that one. What a joke. Better luck next time!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 09:52:13 AM
Again, listen to Annie and Dmitri, those two girls got it right all along. AA and FS look like twins. Especially after Gilliard's, as Annie says, outlining of the features of FS.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/AAandFS.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D

HAHAHAHA!! Look who's trying to use the badly drawn retouched FS picture to their own advantage! You know I think you have to know deep down that FS looks just like AA and you're trying to convince yourself too. But come on, that's the bad redrawn version of FS and you know it doesn't look like her. I guess that's why you used it!  Nope, sorry, this is what she really looked like, and just like AA because they were one in the same!  :D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/heyfran.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/sonotan.png)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anastasia.jpg)

and we don't even need to hide part of the face, or use dark angles, the features and face shape are a perfect match! (though in the second one somebody cut her chin off, no surrprise, it's so different from AN's!)


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/redo2.jpg)

Here is the faded pic of FS, and the retouched one I said was drawn over to emphasize the faded features of FS, not the one Chat used. Of course he's going to use the only one that looks nothing like FS to make himself feel better, but it doesn't look like the real FS, it's not ever going to make AA AN because she was FS.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 01, 2007, 10:04:04 AM
Yes it is all rather pathetic how he cannot accept reality. Anderson was a fraud and the photographic evidence and DNA proved it. There's nothing to debate. I guess some people need their eyes tested as Anderson's eyes looked nothing like the real Anastasia. 
Yes she sure is. You can see that her features look nothing like that of the real Anastasia. The AA suporters just do not want to accept the fact that AA was never A and was a fraud.
AA and AN look nothing like each other.

 (http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia2.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D

He's been sending me this pic for days. This is a perfect example of how a pic was intentionally posed with the purpose of imitating a particular pic and pose and expression of AN, and relying on the dark shadowy parts of the pic to hide the fact that the faces really don't match up at all. It's also one of the most laughable lip biting pics, you can see her squeeze them in and under and chomp them down! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to address this on the open forum!

Even these pictures - which some claim show a resemblance - clearly don't. The lips have completely different ratios to the face, the cheeks are easily distinguished and, while the lighting and angle may make it slightly more difficult to discern, the chin and brow bone are not particularly similar. If you look beyond the shared (imitated?) EXPRESSION, it's obvious these two women have completely different features.

However, I don't even understand why this is being allowed to continue in such a manner; even if they looked like twins, the DNA evidence is irrefutable.  ???
Yes I agree there is not one feature on AA that looks like Anastasia the lips, eyes and nose are completly different. Anastasia has a realy thin and skinny nose AA has a different nose little thick. The eyes are very different and the lips are too think. Anastasia's lips were thiner.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 10:07:48 AM

Yes I agree there is not one feature on AA that looks like Anastasia the lips, eyes and nose are completly different.

True! Here's another matchup showing the drastic difference in their faces!

(http://img164.exs.cx/img164/791/aa38ep.png)(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/3150/picture4ay0.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 01, 2007, 10:14:24 AM
See the picture Annie just posted see it shows how totally different AA look from Anastasia. There is not way in the world that can be Anastasia no way. See how different AA face look from A. Her features are totally different. The nose and the eyes are very different obviously it is not the same person. In the previous photos AA do not have the same chin as A their chins are different.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 10:44:43 AM
That's right, Dmitri! Unless AA went to hell instead for lying ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 01, 2007, 10:54:19 AM
That's right, Dmitri! Unless AA went to hell instead for lying ;)
She could have went there very possible for lying about being someone else's identity. People do go to hell for making up lies in fact that is a sin.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 10:56:10 AM
I am forever being given 'lists' of 'facts' and 'differences' between AA and FS that are only comments from various people and can't be proven. I have always said you can't rely on that because people can lie, or honestly remember something wrong. Since most of the 'testimony' wasn't taken for many years after the fact, it's very likely that the people could have gotten details wrong (if they were evey telling the truth) As for the ones who weren't lying, here is an article from a legal and scientific standpoint that tells of the unrealiability of such 'memories' used as testimony years later. I think the AA case is an excellent
example of this happening.

source: Witness For the Defense: The Accused, the Eyewitness, and the Expert Who Puts Memory On Trial
by Dr. Elizabeth Loftus and Katherine Ketcham
St. Martin's Press, 1991

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/photos/eye/text_06.html

Here is the part about how memories can naturally change over time and why. This happens to everyone, no matter how smart or young they may be. It's how our brains work.

As new bits and pieces of information are added into long-term memory, the old memories are removed, replaced, crumpled up, or shoved into corners. Little details are added, confusing or extraneous elements are deleted, and a coherent construction of the facts is gradually created that may bear little resemblance to the original event.

Memories don't just fade, as the old saying would have us believe; they also grow. What fades is the initial perception, the actual experience of the events. But every time we recall an event, we must reconstruct the memory, and with each recollection the memory may be changed--colored by succeeding events, other people's recollections or suggestions, increased understanding, or a new context.

Truth and reality, when seen through the filter of our memories, are not objective facts but subjective, interpretive realities. We interpret the past, correcting ourselves, adding bits and pieces, deleting uncomplimentary or disturbing recollections, sweeping, dusting, tidying things up. Thus our representation of the past takes on a living, shifting reality; it is not fixed and immutable, not a place way back there that is preserved in stone, but a living thing that changes shape, expands, shrinks, and expands again, an amoebalike creature with powers to make us laugh, and cry, and clench our fists. Enormous powers--powers even to make us believe in something that never happened.


So you can see how easy it would be for a person to remember details of a person's height, hair color, teeth, shoes, etc. incorrectly, though they may think they are right and truly believe it. Dates are especially suspect. Most people cannot put an accurate month and year on an event in memory unless it was connected to a holiday or something like that. So it's very possible someone giving a date could have gotten it wrong. They could remember whole scenes wrong. As the article states, this makes a big difference in trials, sometimes unfairly. Because of this very real memory factor, nothing on the 'lists' of 'differences' stand up as valid proof. They're not 'facts' they are just something a person said, based on their own very fallible memories.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 01, 2007, 10:56:19 AM
Yes it is all rather pathetic how he cannot accept reality. Anderson was a fraud and the photographic evidence and DNA proved it. There's nothing to debate. I guess some people need their eyes tested as Anderson's eyes looked nothing like the real Anastasia. 
Yes she sure is. You can see that her features look nothing like that of the real Anastasia. The AA suporters just do not want to accept the fact that AA was never A and was a fraud.
AA and AN look nothing like each other.

 (http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/Anastasia2.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D

He's been sending me this pic for days. This is a perfect example of how a pic was intentionally posed with the purpose of imitating a particular pic and pose and expression of AN, and relying on the dark shadowy parts of the pic to hide the fact that the faces really don't match up at all. It's also one of the most laughable lip biting pics, you can see her squeeze them in and under and chomp them down! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to address this on the open forum!

Even these pictures - which some claim show a resemblance - clearly don't. The lips have completely different ratios to the face, the cheeks are easily distinguished and, while the lighting and angle may make it slightly more difficult to discern, the chin and brow bone are not particularly similar. If you look beyond the shared (imitated?) EXPRESSION, it's obvious these two women have completely different features.

However, I don't even understand why this is being allowed to continue in such a manner; even if they looked like twins, the DNA evidence is irrefutable.  ???
Yes I agree there is not one feature on AA that looks like Anastasia the lips, eyes and nose are completly different. Anastasia has a realy thin and skinny nose AA has a different nose little thick. The eyes are very different and the lips are too think. Anastasia's lips were thiner.


Excuse me?  Anastasia has a thin and skinny nose?   That is Anastasia on the right and her nose is ANYTHING but skinny!  Take a proper look - it's a real hooter!!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 10:56:46 AM
That's right, Dmitri! Unless AA went to hell instead for lying ;)
She could have went there very possible for lying about being someone else's identity.

Identity theft before the internet! ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 01, 2007, 10:59:41 AM
That's right, Dmitri! Unless AA went to hell instead for lying ;)
She could have went there very possible for lying about being someone else's identity.

Identity theft before the internet! ;)
Yeah!
I can see why you have that horse getting hit on you avatar Annie.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 11:01:37 AM

Excuse me?  Anastasia has a thin and skinny nose?   That is Anastasia on the right and her nose is ANYTHING but skinny!  Take a proper look - it's a real hooter!!


In that ONE pic, the light is shining on it at an angle. It appears to stick out due to the glare, the shadows on the rest of her face, making it appear that way, but you can see in all other AN pics it doesn't really look like that. Of course you'd like it to, because AA did have a 'hooter' but it's not true!

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 11:06:33 AM

I can see why you have that horse getting hit on you avatar Annie.


Yeah, the AA supporters won't quit beating the poor horse after it's been dead for years. I hope one day I can take him down but they won't stop  :(
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 11:08:35 AM
I am forever being given 'lists' of 'facts' and 'differences' between AA and FS that are only comments from various people and can't be proven. I have always said you can't rely on that because people can lie, or honestly remember something wrong. Since most of the 'testimony' wasn't taken for many years after the fact, it's very likely that the people could have gotten details wrong (if they were evey telling the truth) As for the ones who weren't lying, here is an article from a legal and scientific standpoint that tells of the unrealiability of such 'memories' used as testimony years later. I think the AA case is an excellent
example of this happening.

source: Witness For the Defense: The Accused, the Eyewitness, and the Expert Who Puts Memory On Trial
by Dr. Elizabeth Loftus and Katherine Ketcham
St. Martin's Press, 1991

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/photos/eye/text_06.html

Here is the part about how memories can naturally change over time and why. This happens to everyone, no matter how smart or young they may be. It's how our brains work.

As new bits and pieces of information are added into long-term memory, the old memories are removed, replaced, crumpled up, or shoved into corners. Little details are added, confusing or extraneous elements are deleted, and a coherent construction of the facts is gradually created that may bear little resemblance to the original event.

Memories don't just fade, as the old saying would have us believe; they also grow. What fades is the initial perception, the actual experience of the events. But every time we recall an event, we must reconstruct the memory, and with each recollection the memory may be changed--colored by succeeding events, other people's recollections or suggestions, increased understanding, or a new context.

Truth and reality, when seen through the filter of our memories, are not objective facts but subjective, interpretive realities. We interpret the past, correcting ourselves, adding bits and pieces, deleting uncomplimentary or disturbing recollections, sweeping, dusting, tidying things up. Thus our representation of the past takes on a living, shifting reality; it is not fixed and immutable, not a place way back there that is preserved in stone, but a living thing that changes shape, expands, shrinks, and expands again, an amoebalike creature with powers to make us laugh, and cry, and clench our fists. Enormous powers--powers even to make us believe in something that never happened.


So you can see how easy it would be for a person to remember details of a person's height, hair color, teeth, shoes, etc. incorrectly, though they may think they are right and truly believe it. Dates are especially suspect. Most people cannot put an accurate month and year on an event in memory unless it was connected to a holiday or something like that. So it's very possible someone giving a date could have gotten it wrong. They could remember whole scenes wrong. As the article states, this makes a big difference in trials, sometimes unfairly. Because of this very real memory factor, nothing on the 'lists' of 'differences' stand up as valid proof. They're not 'facts' they are just something a person said, based on their own very fallible memories.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 11:16:15 AM
Here are some pics illustrating how this scientist used a computer to fuse the pics of AA and FS to a perfect matchup!

(http://img194.exs.cx/img194/3484/compaa3wm.jpg)
(http://img200.exs.cx/img200/301/aa3iw.jpg)
(http://img194.exs.cx/img194/4780/aa81ec.jpg)
(http://img65.exs.cx/img65/7039/fs7sc.jpg)

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 01, 2007, 11:26:07 AM

I can see why you have that horse getting hit on you avatar Annie.


Yeah, the AA supporters won't quit beating the poor horse after it's been dead for years. I hope one day I can take him down but they won't stop  :(
Yes, it is realy sad I hope the AA suporters will stop beating the dead horse, hopefully they can stop so you can take him off. :(
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 01, 2007, 11:33:27 AM



Excuse me?  Anastasia has a thin and skinny nose?   That is Anastasia on the right and her nose is ANYTHING but skinny!  Take a proper look - it's a real hooter!!

[/quote]
That photograph is not in good quality back then if people where moving while the photographs were being taken it would come out blurry and light shines on a certain angle. When people scan pictures from the original photograph to copy on the scanner sometimes it has a shine in a area of the photograph.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ChatNoir on August 01, 2007, 12:33:02 PM
And to even INdicate that AA looked anything like the Imperial family. The photo below clearly shows that there is no likeness whatsoever between these two.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/OlgaandAnna.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 01:20:00 PM
And to even INdicate that AA looked anything like the Imperial family. The photo below clearly shows that there is no likeness whatsoever between these two.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/OlgaandAnna.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D

Another carefully posed shot for angle, lighting and effect. I wonder which supporter had this idea? Oh yes, that looks like Olga! But you know, it's silly and pointless, because the REAL AN looked nothing like Olga! You can ask any of the girls who do the colorized pics and anyone who collects pics. So why would it mean anything that AA/FS, in one posed, set up shot, slightly resembles one pic of Olga N?  ???  (though I don't personally see the resemblance at all)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 01, 2007, 01:35:25 PM
And to even INdicate that AA looked anything like the Imperial family. The photo below clearly shows that there is no likeness whatsoever between these two.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/OlgaandAnna.jpg)

 ;D ;D ;D

Another carefully posed shot for angle, lighting and effect. I wonder which supporter had this idea? Oh yes, that looks like Olga! But you know, it's silly and pointless, because the REAL AN looked nothing like Olga! You can ask any of the girls who do the colorized pics and anyone who collects pics. So why would it mean anything that AA/FS, in one posed, set up shot, slightly resembles one pic of Olga N?  ???  (though I don't personally see the resemblance at all)

I collect all the pictures I see of the romanovs, and Anastasia never looked anything like Olga! Anna Anderson certainly does not look like Olga. They have no similar look at all period. Olga does not resemble Anastasia or Alix she resembles her father Nicholas. I think that Anna Anderson realy did not resemble any of the romanovs. Those DNA test proved that AA does not have any Romanov blood or relationship with them.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 01, 2007, 06:40:26 PM
Yes those who think Anna Anderson looked like the real Anastasia should pay a visit and have their eyes tested.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 01, 2007, 09:10:11 PM
AGR Bear it is quite evident over repeated entries tbat you believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia. This has been totally disproven. Give it a rest please as this has been rehashed so many times it is incredibly boring. You are flogging a very dead horse. DNA evidence has proved Anna Anderson was in no way related to any of the Romanovs or their relatives. I believe this topic should be locked off completely as there were no survivors. This topic only appeals to those who are deluded and continue to push a proven falsehood.

The suggestion that Bear believes AA is GD Anastasia is misinformation.

Telling people that Bear believes AA is GD Anastasia is  a lie.

Asking posters to be true with their facts is being responsible.

For example:  Did AA ever tell anyone that she was Tatiana???   I'd like a "yes"   or a "no".  If the answer is "yes" then who has testified that AA told them she was Tatiana?   If the answer is "no" then my statement stands:  AA NEVER told anyone that she was GD Tatiana. 

Why is it that a certain few who believe AA is NOT GD Anastasia continue to spout their misinformation and compound this misinformation with  with more  misinformation between their lines of accurate facts???

I still do not understand how Annie or anyone else can  declare  that the  woman who testified and has plainly stated that an error was made and that she wished to have it corrected was a lier without  one shread of evidence to tell us otherwisse.   So what if AA claimed she was GD Anastasia in 1921?  So what if  AA wasn't  capable of  correcting Peuhert's  claim until after  a scene was made with Buxhoven?   The nurse was merely expressing what she knew.  Buxhoven was stating merely what she knew and felt.  Peuhert.... Well,  who knows since she was a patient  and I have no idea what kind of mental problems she had so I can't  place any kind of comment other than what we've been told,  that she was the only one who claimed AA was GD Tatiana.

To me, it's is obvious,  and this is a personal opinion,   that from the  time AA first was sent to Dalldorf,  AA was going to and did claim she was GD Anastasia.   

Let me repeat something I've said a number of times:  Wanting the fact to be acurate does not mean I am siding with the people who believe AA was GD Anastsaia.

As for truth being a load of  "c_ _p,  maybe,  it was some posters  misinformation that fell on Annie's  poor horse's head that killed him.

Let me say  my position another way:  Those of us who don't believe AA was GD Anastasia  don't  need misinformation,  and,  we want to keep our facts accurate and legimate,  so,  I will continue to correct  the misinformation.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Belochka on August 01, 2007, 09:38:30 PM

Why is it that a certain few who believe AA is NOT GD Anastasia   continue to spout their misinformation

... So what if AA claimed she was GD Anastasia in 1921? 

AGRBear

Oh my gosh Bear! :o

Margarita
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2007, 09:41:33 PM
I have given NO 'misinformation', in fact, I have done my best to clear it up by posting the original quote. However, I am suggesting that perhaps it's very likely the date really was 1922, since that was the original one given, and she tried to change it later after someone told her it needed to be 1921 to predate the Tatiana story. Also, as I posted above, studies prove that memories are not completely accurate and change over time when influenced by others, so it's also possible that she really didn't remember the exact date, she remembered it happened but didn't recall if it was before or after the Tatiana incident.

But for you to claim that it's a 'fact' she said it before is not accurate, and is misleading, because this cannot be proven. You seem to classify every single thing people said and is quoted in Kurth's book as a 'fact.' This is incorrect. It may be a 'fact' someone said something, but you cannot prove what they said is a fact so it should not be automatically accepted as such.

To me the nurse's story sounds like it probably happened soon after AA started claiming to be AN after the Tatiana incident, when AA would have been trying to drum up support for her new identity. Or maybe she was just checking the nurse out to see what she thought. Or maybe the whole story was made up. There were no other witnesses.

I also want to know, bear, if you really don't think AA was AN, why does it make so much difference to you? All of your posts support AA's claim, NONE ever say one thing to refute it. You make it very clear which side you are on, because if you were objective, you'd be more fair to both sides. But no, it's always things that help AA, and lean toward her possibly being AN. This is why so many readers here think you are an AA supporter. If it walks like a bear and growls like a bear, it's not a duck.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ChatNoir on August 02, 2007, 12:21:26 AM
I have to support Bear here, although I do not like to post on this forum. Too many people here who have not bothered to read the facts and make accusations as it pleases them.
Annie: The article in Nachtausgabe was written in 1927. Thea Malinovsky's letter to Pastenaci was written in 1927. She certainly had enough time to "think of what date to write".  We already know that the Nachtausgabe was lying. Doris Wingender said that FS came to visit her in spring. AA disappeared from the Kleist apartment in August. But Knopf needed a girl, the Nachtausgabe needed a story, and they compromised and said "summer". AA was staying with Clara Peuthert in those three days in August, and Baroness von Kleist knew about it. She sent a letter to the police, telling them to bring AA back from Clara since she felt that she was the only one allowed to house her. The police went to Clara's apartment, but Clara swore that AA was not there. The police told the Baroness that they had a feeling Miss Peuthert was not telling the truth, but did not do a search. Clara later testified that AA had been there all along. So it is very clear that the Nachtausgabe needed to change nurse Malinovski's date to their advantage, trying to prove that AA was a fraud. That whole FS story was a fabrication from one end to another, but those who have not bothered with the facts, will never learn.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Foxglove on August 02, 2007, 01:04:49 AM
Yes there is no evidence whatsoever that Anastasia did not grow physically during her time in Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg. This would put paid to Dr.Maples and his claim that Anastasia's remains were not found in the grave.

Unfortunately for this theory, Anastasia was still short when they left Tobolsk.  It is not likely that she would grow 3 or even 4 inches during her three months in Ekaterinberg.  It is also likely if she had shot up so much  in such a short period, that Alexandra would have noted this in her diaries.  Don't forget that the skeleton the Russians said was Anastasia  is around 5'5' or taller.



I got the impression that Foxglove was trying to say she could have grown taller over time, not only those months, so why do AA supporters brag about AA's height as being the same as AN's when she may have been taller by then. My Dad was 5'9" at 18, 6'1" at 21.  I had a friend in high school, a guy who grew six inches over one summer. At the end of the year I was looking down on him, when school started again in Sept. I had to look up.

You're correct, Annie, that is what I was trying to say.  :) While it would not have been impossible for Anastasia to grow two or more inches during the months in confinement, I doubt it happened (unless the Russian team is correct that it's Anastasia's 5'7" body buried with her family). Considering she was still growing, and if her family's height is any indication, by the time Anastasia was in her early twenties, it seems more likely than not that she would have gained a couple of more inches. Of course, we will never know for certain, either way. It's just another thought to chew on.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 02, 2007, 01:46:27 AM
Here are some pics illustrating how this scientist used a computer to fuse the pics of AA and FS to a perfect matchup!




So interesting! And still their are those that dent it! Incredible!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 02, 2007, 01:49:36 AM
Yes we will never know about Anastasia as she died in the early hours of 17th July 1918 in the Ipatiev House along with the rest of her family. What is definitely known is that Anna Anderson was not relation whatsoever of any Romanov.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 07:01:25 AM
I have to support Bear here,

Why am I not surprised? The small handful of AA supporters always stick together!

Quote
Too many people here who have not bothered to read the facts and make accusations as it pleases them.

Your facts are not solid 'facts!' Just because someone said something doesn't mean it's always true or accurate. You can quote till the cows come home a page from "Riddle of Anastasia" (and you and bear will) where this or that person said this or that, and while it's a documented fact they said it, that does not endorse their statement as true! People give false and inaccurate testimony ALL THE TIME, both intentionally, and innnocently, because they remembered something wrong.

Quote
Annie: The article in Nachtausgabe was written in 1927. Thea Malinovsky's letter to Pastenaci was written in 1927. She certainly had enough time to "think of what date to write".

And more time to forget the details! Go back and read my memory article. As time when by she could easily have lost track of when it exactly happened, and what exactly happened. She even originally said 1922, then changed it! This ONE person's questionable statement is not a 'fact!'

Quote
We already know that the Nachtausgabe was lying.

We do? How? Because you don't like them?

Quote
Doris Wingender said that FS came to visit her in spring. AA disappeared from the Kleist apartment in August.

So, maybe one or both of these people got their dates mixed up!

Quote
But Knopf needed a girl, the Nachtausgabe needed a story, and they compromised and said "summer".

Or so YOU are accusing and assuming, with no proof!

Quote
AA was staying with Clara Peuthert in those three days in August, and Baroness von Kleist knew about it.

You mean the Baron who invented the silly cart story? Is his word law? And staying with Clara, two nutters in a shell? You don't know what really happened and you can't prove it. I can't either, but neither can you.

Quote
She sent a letter to the police, telling them to bring AA back from Clara since she felt that she was the only one allowed to house her. The police went to Clara's apartment, but Clara swore that AA was not there. The police told the Baroness that they had a feeling Miss Peuthert was not telling the truth, but did not do a search.

They 'had a feeling' huh? This is no proof.

Quote
Clara later testified that AA had been there all along.

Clara was a mental patient. She may have bee mixed up. We'll never know which story is true, and you cannnot prove it. You are only assuming here based on what you choose to make out of the story. I could do the same from my point of view, and neither of us can go back to the 1920's and prove it.

Quote
So it is very clear that the Nachtausgabe needed to change nurse Malinovski's date to their advantage, trying to prove that AA was a fraud.

Very clear? How are you reading things into this? And how is this ASSUMPTION any better than mine that she honestly did say 1922 and changed it later because someone told her she needed to predate the Tatiana story? This is NO PROOF!

Quote
That whole FS story was a fabrication from one end to another, but those who have not bothered with the facts, will never learn.

 ::) You live in your own strange little world if you really see it this way. But at least you're bringing this stuff to the open forum now for everyone to see instead of sending me numerous PMs a day. Now everyone can see it and you can have others besides me to discuss it with, and I am glad!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 02, 2007, 07:28:24 AM
Yes it is, people must realy, can not see that good because if they did they can tell clearly that Olga looks nothing like AA or either their dent it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 09:51:09 AM
My question was a simple one:   Did AA ever tell anyone that she was Tatiana???   I'd like a "yes"   or a "no".  If the answer is "yes" then who has testified that AA told them she was Tatiana?   If the answer is "no" then my statement stands:  AA NEVER told anyone that she was GD Tatiana.

Meanwhile,  I'm open to more  useful and accurate information.

#1 -
Clara Peuthert

We do know from sources that Clara claimed AA was GD Tatiana.

Did she tell Capt.  Schwabe this?  Yes.

#2
Capt. Schwabe -

Did Capt. Schwabe see AA?  Yes.

Did AA tell Capt. Scwabe that she was  GD Tatiana or did she tell him she was GD Anastasia? 

 I don't have the answer.   I'm not sure that Capt. Schwabe had any conversation at all when he visited AA in Dalldorf.  We do know that he immediately went to his organization who in turn the organization sent men to guard AA at Dalldorf.  We do know that Capt. Schwabe repeated what Clara said who claimed AA was  GD Tatiana. 

#3
Buxhoeven -
We do know that Buxhoven believed she was sent to see GD Tatiana and not GD Anastasia....


What other information do we have which tells us more about this point in AA's life?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 02, 2007, 10:00:24 AM
What a big yawn AGRbear! It is all totally irrelevant as that woman was not Anastasia. Enough of the fairy tale fraud please!!!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 10:20:54 AM
What a big yawn AGRbear! It is all totally irrelevant as that woman was not Anastasia. Enough of the fairy tale fraud please!!!

AA was not a fairy tale.  She was a very real person who touched many lives.  She convinced many people that she was GD Anastasia.   Many people never believed she was GD Anastasia.  Those of us who are interested in this woman have been given a thread to discuss her.  Shouting at us time and time again that she was a "fraud"  and that we are wasting our time discussing her or that all of this is a "big yawn",  is not necessary.  We understand your opinion some time ago.  Now, please,  understand those of us who want to  continue to talk about her.  We find her interesting and wonder how she managed the role she took in life from the time she jumped into the Berlin canal to her death.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 10:37:08 AM
In regards to GD Anastasia's height by 16 July 1918,  no one knows how tall  GD Anastasia was.  Growth of a person varies with each individuals, therefore,  people can only guess her height.

Could someone give us a quote as to the last known height of GD Anastasia and then give us a date?

We can kinda tell  GD Anastasia's height when standing next to her sisters in photographs.  Since we don't have a photograph to work with in that last month of  her life,  then,  alll we can work with is what is written in diaries of the IF  or letters sent and her height was mentioned.

We do know that AA's height is listed as being 5 foot 2 inches while she was at Dalldorf.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 01:31:17 PM
Question for Bear: What difference does it make to you if AA and AN were the same height or not, unless you are trying to suggest it may be a clue that they may have been the same person? If you really don't believe AA was AN, why do you even care how tall AN was? Since AN died in Ekaterinburg, AA was someone else. Whether AA was FS or a CHEKA plant, Anastasia's height is not an issue here, that is, IF you truly don't believe AA to be AN.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 01:35:01 PM
My question was a simple one:   Did AA ever tell anyone that she was Tatiana???   I'd like a "yes"   or a "no".  If the answer is "yes" then who has testified that AA told them she was Tatiana?   If the answer is "no" then my statement stands:  AA NEVER told anyone that she was GD Tatiana.

By not telling anyone she WASN'T when Clara said she was, and by allowing people to come see her on the premise that she was Tatiana, she totally endorsed the idea that she may be Tatiana. While she 'never said she was Tatiana' she also never said she wasn't, that is, until she was pronounced too short to be her!

And again, I pose this question to owl, eeyore and bear: WHY does it matter to you when she claimed to be AN? Do you think if you can prove she claimed it before Clara said she was Tatiana that means she was really AN? I thought you didn't believe she was AN? So why does this matter to you IF you really aren't trying to prove she may have been AN?

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 03:15:48 PM
Question for Bear: What difference does it make to you if AA and AN were the same height or not, unless you are trying to suggest it may be a clue that they may have been the same person? If you really don't believe AA was AN, why do you even care how tall AN was? Since AN died in Ekaterinburg, AA was someone else. Whether AA was FS or a CHEKA plant, Anastasia's height is not an issue here, that is, IF you truly don't believe AA to be AN.

I was not the one who asked about GD Anastasia's height.  I believe it was Elizabeth~Princess or someone before her on this thread that wanted to know.

And,  yes,  I care about  how tall GD Anastasia [height unknown] , AA [five feet 2 inches] and FS [thought to be about 5 feet 6 inches; taller than the Wingender sisters who were no shorter than 5 feet 4 inches which is known from testimony in AA's trial]  were,  just as I care that this information and all the information is accurate.

I assume anyone on this thread cares about reading accurate information be it from me or other posters.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 03:27:22 PM


And,  yes,  I care about  how tall GD Anastasia [height unknown] , AA [five feet 2 inches] and FS [thought to be about 5 feet 6 inches; taller than the Wingender sisters who were no shorter than 5 feet 4 inches which is known from testimony in AA's trial]  were,  just as I care that this information and all the information is accurate.

I assume anyone on this thread cares about reading accurate information be it from me or other posters.

AGRBear

Then if you care about 'accurate information' don't go passing off one or two people's faded memories and objective view of height as a 'fact.'

As this memory article says
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dna/photos/eye/text_06.html

As new bits and pieces of information are added into long-term memory, the old memories are removed, replaced, crumpled up, or shoved into corners. Little details are added, confusing or extraneous elements are deleted, and a coherent construction of the facts is gradually created that may bear little resemblance to the original event.

Memories don't just fade, as the old saying would have us believe; they also grow. What fades is the initial perception, the actual experience of the events. But every time we recall an event, we must reconstruct the memory, and with each recollection the memory may be changed--colored by succeeding events, other people's recollections or suggestions, increased understanding, or a new context.

Truth and reality, when seen through the filter of our memories, are not objective facts but subjective, interpretive realities. We interpret the past, correcting ourselves, adding bits and pieces, deleting uncomplimentary or disturbing recollections, sweeping, dusting, tidying things up. Thus our representation of the past takes on a living, shifting reality; it is not fixed and immutable, not a place way back there that is preserved in stone, but a living thing that changes shape, expands, shrinks, and expands again, an amoebalike creature with powers to make us laugh, and cry, and clench our fists. Enormous powers--powers even to make us believe in something that never happened.


memory for such detail is often skewered and changed in the mind's eye over time, and is NOT reliable. As I always bring up about the rock star, ten people standing next to him all swore he was a different height. Too much is in play here. Someone could have remembered wrong, one person could have had higher shoes on or be standing on an incline or decline. Just because a person states a person was a height does NOT make it a 'FACT' and if you are so blasted devoted to 'accuracy' you'll consider that.

FACT: Person A said person B was 5'2" BUT this does not necessarily make it a FACT that person B really WAS that height, it's only a subjective opinion based on a half faded memory.

And again I must ask, WHY does it matter how tall AA was as compared to AN IF you really don't mean to imply they may be the same person? And WHY are you always so anxious to make FS look so much taller than AA unless you are trying to say she wasn't FS, and added to your trying to match her up with AN= you are trying to prove AA=AN. If not, why would it matter?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 02, 2007, 04:32:02 PM
I do not know.  But, Anna Anderson did not touch lives I can tell you that's not true. Talk about her, what else is there to talk about her?, she did not do anything special, and a person like her all she did was pretend to be someone she was not. Therefore, she went for being Anastasia. It's realy more of a lie. Please explain to me about how AA so called touched lives?

What a big yawn AGRbear! It is all totally irrelevant as that woman was not Anastasia. Enough of the fairy tale fraud please!!!

AA was not a fairy tale.  She was a very real person who touched many lives.  She convinced many people that she was GD Anastasia.   Many people never believed she was GD Anastasia.  Those of us who are interested in this woman have been given a thread to discuss her.  Shouting at us time and time again that she was a "fraud"  and that we are wasting our time discussing her or that all of this is a "big yawn",  is not necessary.  We understand your opinion some time ago.  Now, please,  understand those of us who want to  continue to talk about her.  We find her interesting and wonder how she managed the role she took in life from the time she jumped into the Berlin canal to her death.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 04:37:33 PM
I have not voiced at any time that I didn't think AA was 5 feet 2 inches when she was in Dalldorf.

I would assume it was a nurses at Dalldorf who wrote down AA's height.    And this is why we know her height in March of 1920.  And, I assume,  her height was probably measured many other times when she had  the various hospital stays due to her illnesses.

Far as I know,  no one has disagree with AA's height  while she was in Dalldorf.

Can we agree that AA when she was in Dalldorf was 5 feet 2 inches tall?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 04:47:30 PM
I do not know.  But, Anna Anderson did not touch lives I can tell you that's not true. Talk about her, what else is there to talk about her?, she did not do anything special, and a person like her all she did was pretend to be someone she was not. Therefore, she went for being Anastasia. It's realy more of a lie. Please explain to me about how AA so called touched lives?



Anna Anderson didn't live in a isolated bubble so I'm not sure what you mean that she didn't touch people's lives. 

Everyone touches someone else's life in some way or another.   

I understand what you mean when you think she wasn't someone special to you.  That doesn't mean  she wasn't special to others.

Have you ever talked to people who actually knew her?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 02, 2007, 05:04:44 PM
There is nothing at all interesting in this pathetic Polish fraudster. She is dead and cremated. Let Anna Anderson or whatever she called herself from one day to the next rest in peace and stop flogging the dead and very boring horse. She only touched the lives of the deluded. Certainly she had nothing to do with Anastasia. What a waste of a life pretending to be somebody you aren't.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 02, 2007, 05:09:00 PM
Of course Anna Anderson "touched lives". There are many people on this board --- including people who do not think she was Anastasia Romanov --- who were first drawn to the story of the Imperial Family through the story of Anna Anderson. Since she serves as a "port of entry" to the larger story of Nicholas and Alexandra for those people, she "touched" their lives.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 02, 2007, 05:14:49 PM
Anna Anderson never drew me to the Romanovs. Reading real Russian history is far more interesting than anything about that old bore.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 02, 2007, 05:20:51 PM
well said Annie!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Louis_Charles on August 02, 2007, 05:23:16 PM
That's fine, Dmitri,  and is your story. But there are many others who were first drawn to the Romanovs because of this woman, and their experiences are not invalidated because they were not yours. It is possible to be interested in Anderson as a phenomenon of history. You may not be, just as I am not particularly interested in the Smolny Institute. But I recognize that there are people who find the Smolny fascinating. Different strokes, as it were.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 05:37:47 PM


And,  yes,  I care about  how tall GD Anastasia [height unknown] , AA [five feet 2 inches] and FS [thought to be about 5 feet 6 inches; taller than the Wingender sisters who were no shorter than 5 feet 4 inches which is known from testimony in AA's trial]  were,  just as I care that this information and all the information is accurate.

I assume anyone on this thread cares about reading accurate information be it from me or other posters.

AGRBear

Then if you care about 'accurate information' don't go passing off one or two people's faded memories and objective view of height as a 'fact.'

....

I am posting accurately what various witnesses,  which you and others have presented,   stated.   It is up to each individual to read what these people stated and to make their own opinion.  I  don't think it's my place to demand  posters believe what I believe.

And,  it's true,   people's memories aren't  always the best.  That is why   police, lawyers and judges listen to ALL the facts.   And,  as far as I'm concern,   we,  who believe AA was not GD Anastasia,  don't  need to give inacurate information.

As to who had "faded memories" and who did not,  it seems that the nurse Malinovsky was making every effort to be as accurate as she could.    She used references to other events in her life.   A person cannot ask for  anything more.

So,  did she remember correctly?  This is why more testimonies were necessary,  which  would  help prove or disprove  Malinovsky's memory.  Dalldorf records would provide the information when Malinovsky joined the staff....

Since Clara Peuthert was a patient and not a nurse or a doctor at Dalldorf,  I'd view her testimony with a more critical eye.   This was a mental asylum.   I'm not familiar with the reason why she was there.   Nor do I know  why she claimed  AA was GD Tatiana.  All we know is that the others said AA never claimed she was Tatiana?  

One thing more:  According to somethings I've heard,  Clara would make terrible fusses and even was known to strike people if people  didn't agree with her.  

I am not sure if AA had any kind of control over Clara,  who was the one who rushed off to find someone to help AA and that someone was Capt.  Schwabe,  whom she told that AA was GD Tatiana.

I could speculate that  AA was afraid to  contradict  Clara who at that time was the only one gaining contact for AA to someone who might help AA in her  claim  and  maybe she thought that  if she caused Clara to be angry  maybe Clara would not follow through with going to Capt. Schwabe.   Remaining silent did work.  Clara did go to Capt. Scwabe, who  did arrive and did see her and went off to tell his organization that he believe AA was a grand duchess....  Whatever it was that AA was thinking,  we will never know.   Not correcting Clara was a flaw in her claim because    AA's miscalulation of not making it clear with Capt. Schwabe her claim of being  GD Anastasia  resulted in the scene with Buxhoven, which  nearly ended everything for AA,  however,  it didn't  because her claim continued and even went to a trial in Germany .... Even after the trial,  the mystery of AA  continued to the day AA died....

Did Capt. Schwabe leave any written material which talks about  when he realized AA was claiming to be GD Anastasia and NOT  GD Tatiana?

AGRBear


Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 05:54:10 PM
Bear please specify what "INACCURATE" info I have provided.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 05:55:38 PM
Thank you! I get so tired of bear presenting things as 'facts' that are really just comments that can't be proven. And she accuses ME of inaccurate information? She and the other AA supporters give misleading info all the time.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 06:05:24 PM
Annie is correct,   people's memories are not always the best.  And,  that is why police, lawyers and judges weigh  ALL the evidence.

And  that is what we're trying to do here.   Provide ALL the evidence,  not just DNA /mtDNA,  which has it's own threads.

I believe that  everything about FS and AA should be the same.   All the puzzle pieces should fit  in a puzzle but I have this one piece that tells me  FS was  5 feet 6 inches tall and we know AA was only 5 feet 2 inches tall.  And,  no matter how hard I try to jam that one piece into this puzzle it just doesn't want to fit,  so,  I sit back and try to understand why this one piece doesn't fit.   Do you know?  I sure don't.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 06:24:01 PM
Thank you! I get so tired of bear presenting things as 'facts' that are really just comments that can't be proven. And she accuses ME of inaccurate information? She and the other AA supporters give misleading info all the time.

Are you asking me if I was in the court hearing one of  the Wingender sisters, who was about 5 feet 4 inches tall,  that  FS was taller than her?    No I wasn't there.  So,  did the Wingender sister tell  the judges  or did  she not tell the judges that FS was taller than herself  and her sister and  then told them that they,  Wingender sister,   were both about 5 feet 4 inches???   She  did,  therefore,  my information is not misinformation, and,  if you don't believe me,   you can find  her testimony in  AA's trial records.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 06:47:19 PM
Thank you! I get so tired of bear presenting things as 'facts' that are really just comments that can't be proven. And she accuses ME of inaccurate information? She and the other AA supporters give misleading info all the time.

Are you asking me if I was in the court hearing one of  the Wingender sisters, who was about 5 feet 4 inches tall,  that  FS was taller than her?    No I wasn't there.  So,  did the Wingender sister tell  the judges  or did  she not tell the judges that FS was taller than herself  and her sister and  then told them that they,  Wingender sister,   were both about 5 feet 4 inches???   She  did,  therefore,  my information is not misinformation, and,  if you don't believe me,   you can find  her testimony in  AA's trial records.

AGRBear



I'm saying it's misleading misinformation to portray a statement as fact when it's not. We need to make it clear that while it's a 'fact' a person said something, that does not automatically make what they said a 'fact.' You seem to portray all these quotes as facts, and they simply are not.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 07:01:29 PM

I believe that  everything about FS and AA should be the same.   All the puzzle pieces should fit  in a puzzle but I have this one piece that tells me  FS was  5 feet 6 inches tall and we know AA was only 5 feet 2 inches tall.  And,  no matter how hard I try to jam that one piece into this puzzle it just doesn't want to fit,  so,  I sit back and try to understand why this one piece doesn't fit.   Do you know?  I sure don't.

AGRBear

The answer is easy: THE PERSON WHO SAID 5'6" WAS MISTAKEN!

Bear, this is why I keep bringing up this memory and questionable testimony stuff. People DO get things wrong, and clearly the person who gave the info with the out of place height was wrong. You really can't consider that a "fact" when the person may very well have been mistaken. In fact she was mistaken, because AA wasn't that tall. The only other explaination is that AA shrunk some after she got TB of the bones. But it's more likely the person who said 5'6" was wrong. You need to SERIOUSLY consider that instead of keeping it as a sticking point when all the other stuff shows us it was inaccurate.

I can hardly think of anything more subjective and prone to human error than guessing a person's height. I still don't know how tall Bono is. Ten people met him, and just a few days after the concert were arguing that he was as small as 5'2" or as tall as 5'8". People would say "I'm 5'6" and he was taller than me!" then a girl would say "you're wrong, I'm 5'4" and I was looking down on him!" They all had a different story and all insisted they were right and everyone else was wrong. But suppose only ONE person had met him, and insisted he was 5'8". Then the next time you meet Bono and he's only 5'5", are you going to think he's only an imposter, or are you going to realize the girl made a mistake? COMMON SENSE HAS to come into play in things like this!

I asked my brother what size shoe I wore. He stated a size 3 sizes smaller than what I actually wore. But suppose I was pretending to be someone famous,  and my brother came up and told them I was his sister, and I wore the smaller size. Does that automatically make me not his sister since he got it wrong? "No, she's not his sister, this lady wears a bigger size shoe!" PLEASE! Or what if I dyed my hair red? Is it not 'me' anymore because somebody told you I wasn't a redhead? Gee whiz you have to think these things through!

A lot of things could have happened to make them misjudge her height. Maybe FS was standing on a higher piece of ground so she appeared taller. Maybe she was wearing high heels. Maybe Doris was standing in a sunken piece of ground, or on a lower step. Whatever it was, she got it wrong. FS was AA and AA was 5'2." There is no 'missing piece' here, if you just consider the most sensible realistic and reasonable explaination. (and if you're not trying to prove AA to be AN)

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 08:03:59 PM
I already did and that is why we're back on this silly merry-go-round, again.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 08:10:40 PM
Your long post is full of more assumptions, slants on viewpoint and speculation stated as fact than I have ever posted.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 02, 2007, 08:22:39 PM
..[in part]...

I'm saying it's misleading misinformation to portray a statement as fact when it's not. We need to make it clear that while it's a 'fact' a person said something, that does not automatically make what they said a 'fact.' You seem to portray all these quotes as facts, and they simply are not.

When building a case,   you present evidence.  In this case,  some of the evidence are from   various testimonies from people who had been involved with AA  throughout her life.    With each testimony you build a case for or against AA.    If  we  wish to be believed,  we need to provide as accurate information as possible.   Sounds simple doesn't it.  But,  of course it isn't.   No one said it was.    And,   it's  each our responsibility to be as honest and we can  and present  all the facts as presented.

Now,  there are times I may disagree with you or you with me.   That is to be expected.   My knowledge is different than your knowledge.   

Are you having difficulty understanding my opinion as to what a fact is?  Here is a quick  diffinition:

fact |fakt| |føkt| |fakt|
noun
a thing that is indisputably the case : she lacks political experience—a fact that becomes clear when she appears in public | a body of fact.
• ( the fact that) used in discussing the significance of something that is the case : the real problem facing them is the fact that their funds are being cut.
• (usu. facts) a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
• chiefly Law the truth about events as opposed to interpretation : there was a question of fact as to whether they had received the letter.


AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 02, 2007, 08:54:21 PM
It's not an issue of fact or opinion, it's an issue of fact vs. a person's statement that is an exhibit A in the case, but may or may not be accurate.

Can you understand this:

It's a FACT someone said something on a certain day and it's quoted on page 111

BUT!! what the person was quoted as saying is not necessarily a fact, and may very well not be accurate.

This has NOTHING TO DO with what I personally feel about the person's statement, it goes for EVERYTHING!

You continue to present things like 'FS was 5'6" as a FACT when really it is no more than one person's comment based on a memory from long ago. It's incorrect and misleading to label this as a FACT that even changes your mind about FS's identity, when really it cannot be proven. You have ONE person saying something. That is not a 'fact.' If all you had to do was say something and make it true, then what I'm saying is true right now.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 03, 2007, 06:48:46 AM
I have to support Bear here,

Why am I not surprised? The small handful of AA supporters always stick together!

Quote
Too many people here who have not bothered to read the facts and make accusations as it pleases them.

Your facts are not solid 'facts!' Just because someone said something doesn't mean it's always true or accurate. You can quote till the cows come home a page from "Riddle of Anastasia" (and you and bear will) where this or that person said this or that, and while it's a documented fact they said it, that does not endorse their statement as true! People give false and inaccurate testimony ALL THE TIME, both intentionally, and innnocently, because they remembered something wrong.

Quote
Annie: The article in Nachtausgabe was written in 1927. Thea Malinovsky's letter to Pastenaci was written in 1927. She certainly had enough time to "think of what date to write".

And more time to forget the details! Go back and read my memory article. As time when by she could easily have lost track of when it exactly happened, and what exactly happened. She even originally said 1922, then changed it! This ONE person's questionable statement is not a 'fact!'

Quote
We already know that the Nachtausgabe was lying.

We do? How? Because you don't like them?

Quote
Doris Wingender said that FS came to visit her in spring. AA disappeared from the Kleist apartment in August.

So, maybe one or both of these people got their dates mixed up!

Quote
But Knopf needed a girl, the Nachtausgabe needed a story, and they compromised and said "summer".

Or so YOU are accusing and assuming, with no proof!

[
Quote
She sent a letter to the police, telling them to bring AA back from Clara since she felt that she was the only one allowed to house her. The police went to Clara's apartment, but Clara swore that AA was not there. The police told the Baroness that they had a feeling Miss Peuthert was not telling the truth, but did not do a search.

They 'had a feeling' huh? This is no proof.

Quote
Clara later testified that AA had been there all along.

Clara was a mental patient. She may have bee mixed up. We'll never know which story is true, and you cannnot prove it. You are only assuming here based on what you choose to make out of the story. I could do the same from my point of view, and neither of us can go back to the 1920's and prove it.

Quote
So it is very clear that the Nachtausgabe needed to change nurse Malinovski's date to their advantage, trying to prove that AA was a fraud.

Very clear? How are you reading things into this? And how is this ASSUMPTION any better than mine that she honestly did say 1922 and changed it later because someone told her she needed to predate the Tatiana story? This is NO PROOF!

Quote
That whole FS story was a fabrication from one end to another, but those who have not bothered with the facts, will never learn.

 ::) You live in your own strange little world if you really see it this way. But at least you're bringing this stuff to the open forum now for everyone to see instead of sending me numerous PMs a day. Now everyone can see it and you can have others besides me to discuss it with, and I am glad!

Annie, just listen to yourself!  Everything you have said in this post applies to you and all your arguments!  Can't you see that?
And you wonder why we question them?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 07:13:09 AM


Annie, just listen to yourself!  Everything you have said in this post applies to you and all your arguments!  Can't you see that?
And you wonder why we question them?


Everything he said was presented as fact but really only slanted and colorized to his arguments, so I wanted to point that out and offer an opposing viewpoint.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on August 03, 2007, 07:41:37 AM
Yes those who think Anna Anderson looked like the real Anastasia should pay a visit and have their eyes tested.

Went and had them tested recently, thanks.   When  did you last get yours done?  :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 03, 2007, 09:07:43 AM
Looks like you missed the ferry.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 03, 2007, 11:42:22 AM
I do not know.  But, Anna Anderson did not touch lives I can tell you that's not true. Talk about her, what else is there to talk about her?, she did not do anything special, and a person like her all she did was pretend to be someone she was not. Therefore, she went for being Anastasia. It's realy more of a lie. Please explain to me about how AA so called touched lives?



Anna Anderson didn't live in a isolated bubble so I'm not sure what you mean that she didn't touch people's lives. 

Everyone touches someone else's life in some way or another.  

I understand what you mean when you think she wasn't someone special to you.  That doesn't mean  she wasn't special to others.

Have you ever talked to people who actually knew her?

AGRBear

No I do not believe there is one thing that she did special. She was nothing but a fraud. You mean people who meet her before?
There is nothing at all interesting in this pathetic Polish fraudster. She is dead and cremated. Let Anna Anderson or whatever she called herself from one day to the next rest in peace and stop flogging the dead and very boring horse. She only touched the lives of the deluded. Certainly she had nothing to do with Anastasia. What a waste of a life pretending to be somebody you aren't.
I agree with you Dmitri, she is just a dead woman who lied and pretend to be someone else. Who cares she is nothing but a pathetic lier. It is nothing but a waste of time even talking about the woman.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: mikeycoleman on August 03, 2007, 12:05:20 PM
I am now confused on who thinks AA is AN and who thinks AA is FS and who thinks AA is someone else!

For me AA = FS.

Mikey
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 12:27:48 PM

No I do not believe there is one thing that she did special. She was nothing but a fraud. You mean people who meet her before?

I have come to think some of the people who met her don't want her to be FS because their own little claim to fame of meeting her, and therefore their own importance, is somehow degraded if she was not really AN but a "Polish peasant." That's how it seems to me IMO.But they can look at it this way, even though they didn't meet a Grand Duchess, they did meet a famous actress! ;)

There is nothing at all interesting in this pathetic Polish fraudster. She is dead and cremated. Let Anna Anderson or whatever she called herself from one day to the next rest in peace and stop flogging the dead and very boring horse. She only touched the lives of the deluded. Certainly she had nothing to do with Anastasia. What a waste of a life pretending to be somebody you aren't.
Quote
I agree with you Dmitri, she is just a dead woman who lied and pretend to be someone else. Who cares she is nothing but a pathetic lier. It is nothing but a waste of time even talking about the woman.

Agree with both of you!

And I didn't come to the Romanov story because of AA, I came because my sixth grade teacher told us the story and I got interested in it and bought Nicholas and Alexandra. It's good that most of the people here who have gotten interested in the Romanovs because of AA or the Anastasia cartoon have come here and found out the truth about the story, that AA was not AN. There is still plenty to be interested in besides AA. The Romanovs themselves, and she was not one of those!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 12:31:55 PM
I am now confused on who thinks AA is AN and who thinks AA is FS and who thinks AA is someone else!

Currently on this forum, I think the only ones who think AA was AN are Chat_Noir and ferrymansdaughter. There have been others who are not here now including Calebg who has posted under a dozen different names to try to make it look like AA has more supporters.

Personally, AGRBear's post make it appear to me she is an AA supporter, but she denies this. She thinks AA was a CHEKA plant, a spy or a decoy.

Quote
For me AA = FS.

ME TOO!

and that's the right answer, because it is true!

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 03, 2007, 01:07:53 PM
I am now confused on who thinks AA is AN and who thinks AA is FS and who thinks AA is someone else!

Currently on this forum, I think the only ones who think AA was AN are Chat_Noir and ferrymansdaughter. There have been others who are not here now including Calebg who has posted under a dozen different names to try to make it look like AA has more supporters.

Personally, AGRBear's post make it appear to me she is an AA supporter, but she denies this. She thinks AA was a CHEKA plant, a spy or a decoy.

Quote
For me AA = FS.

ME TOO!

and that's the right answer, because it is true!


I agree it does sound right to me AA=FS ! I think that person is an AA suporter because if you look in the AA thread you will see that ferrysmandaughter and Chat_Noir help support AA especialy with the pictures they posted they keep on trying to claim that AA has some kind of resemblence to the IF. So that they can make it so and have more proof that AA was A.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 03, 2007, 01:54:40 PM
..[in part]...
I agree with you Dmitri, she is just a dead woman who lied and pretend to be someone else. Who cares she is nothing but a pathetic lier. It is nothing but a waste of time even talking about the woman.

Bear is confused.  PLEASE,  could you explain:   Why are you even here reading about AA if  her life is  "waste of time"?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 03, 2007, 02:17:22 PM
..[in part]...
I agree with you Dmitri, she is just a dead woman who lied and pretend to be someone else. Who cares she is nothing but a pathetic lier. It is nothing but a waste of time even talking about the woman.

Bear is confused.  PLEASE,  could you explain:   Why are you even here reading about AA if  her life is  "waste of time"?

AGRBear
Bear, beacause, she is not Anastasia and, it was a waste of time becuase people keep on saying the same thing over and over again, if they did not have anything else other than what they said then it would be just a waste of time. But, it is okay to continue talking about her, but not saying the same stuff oven again unless you have a point or important fact to note or a conclusion to make.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 03, 2007, 04:56:29 PM
 I do, now, understand.

Thank you.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 03, 2007, 06:05:57 PM
This is pretty basic.   Did the Wingender sister claim that FS was taller than her 5 feet 4 inches]?

Yes?

No?

Pick one.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 09:16:36 PM
Lookie what I found on a German language site! This is the best pic of FS I've seen yet. And no, AA supporters, it's not 'retouched.' This is just a plain black and white photo. I guess the Germans had something the Americans didn't. This is even more definitive proof that AA and FS were the same person.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/fsav.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)

When I use my pic viewer to blow it up, you can see even more detail, including big light colored eyes that look exactly like AA's! Unfortunately I don't have a way to blow it up to post right now, but if you want to see what I mean you can save it on your computer and blow it up some in photoshop if you have it. I really miss mine right now! If anyone can blow it up please post it here!

FS is AA! :D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/fsav.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aamug.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ChatNoir on August 03, 2007, 10:25:39 PM
Just for your info: This alleged photo of FS was the one used for the article in the Nachtausgabe. Retouched once. Did you all know that the one and only photo of FS was never authenticated?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 10:29:09 PM
Oh give it a rest, it's NOT retouched! That's why I was so excited to find it! It's the best quality of the lone known photo of FS I've ever seen.  I have played with it in the pic viewer on my computer, sorry, it's an actual photo, no one has done anything to it!  I challenge anyone to examine it for themselves. This is what FS looked like, just like AA!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/fsav.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aamug.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ChatNoir on August 03, 2007, 10:43:21 PM
wrong picture
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 10:44:40 PM

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/AAFranciscas3faces.jpg)

The first one is real but blurry, the other two retouched, the last one simply drawn on to emphasize features, the middle one changed to the point of unrecognition.

This picture is just a plain photo, and again I challenge anyone to find any differently. It's the best quality version of the FS pic I've ever seen. Not drawn on, not blurry, and more detail. This is why I was so happy to find it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/fsav.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: ChatNoir on August 03, 2007, 10:48:35 PM
Franziska's 3 faces.

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/AAFranciscas3faces.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 03, 2007, 10:49:04 PM
What else was expected from the source? There are some who have vested interests in maintaining their farcical attitudes after all.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 03, 2007, 10:51:11 PM
The DNA proves AA was FS anyway so why beat the dead horse?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 03, 2007, 11:02:07 PM
What else was expected from the source? There are some who have vested interests in maintaining their farcical attitudes after all.

 ;) :D

Some people just can't stand it! NOOO she can't be FS or the world will end!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: G_Lermontov on August 04, 2007, 12:01:36 AM
ChatNoir:

Just out of curiosity, do you think that the picture in question looks like Anna Anderson? 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 04, 2007, 07:28:51 AM
What else was expected from the source? There are some who have vested interests in maintaining their farcical attitudes after all.

 ;) :D

Some people just can't stand it! NOOO she can't be FS or the world will end!
Yes, the world will be horrible and it sure will end if she was ever A. Thank goodness she is not.I can not stand it either very annoying.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Alixz on August 04, 2007, 09:42:01 AM
The middle one was retouched to make her look more like AN.  The nose and lips and eyebrows have been more finely drawn.

If that was the only picture we had of FS, even we might think she was AN.    :o
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 04, 2007, 10:06:05 AM
No I tend to think not. FS looks nothing at all like Anastasia. Have a look at AA and you will see how similar FS is to her. In fact they were one and the same. The DNA proved it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2007, 10:17:49 AM
All 3 of the pics ChatNoir posted are supposed to be FS. The first one is original, the middle one drawn on for a Berlin publication, the last one drawn only around the features to emphasize them for Gilliard's book 'Les Fausse Anastasie." I have no idea why the person made that middle one look so unlike the original, maybe it was to make it appear that AA was NOT FS? (which is why Chat usually uses that one to compare to AA) But sorry to all AA supporters, matching the original to AA is a match. The little picture I found last night is a clearer version of the original, and even more incriminating evidence against AA/FS.

But Alix, since you thought they were AA and the middle one was made to look like AN, that proves even more that when you saw those pics you thought it was AA, though the pics were FS! So you see there again, FS is a dead ringer for AA since they are the same person! :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Lemur on August 04, 2007, 12:37:05 PM
Oh give it a rest, it's NOT retouched! That's why I was so excited to find it! It's the best quality of the lone known photo of FS I've ever seen.  I have played with it in the pic viewer on my computer, sorry, it's an actual photo, no one has done anything to it!  I challenge anyone to examine it for themselves. This is what FS looked like, just like AA!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/fsav.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/hellofran.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aamug.jpg)

I don't understand how anyone could not see that's the same woman.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Alixz on August 04, 2007, 01:27:22 PM
Annie,

That is exactly what I meant.  I knew those pictures were of FS and that's why I said that if that middle picture was the only picture of FS that we had and we had never seen the un re-touched photos, the even we might think that FS was truly AA and that AA was truly Anastasia.

At least that is what I think I said   ???

Or am I misinterpreting.  Since that picture is proven to be FS then it can only mean that AA was FS and never could have been Anastasia, only FS pretending to be AA and therefore pretending to be Anastasia  ???   ???  I think I am confusing myself.   :-\
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 04, 2007, 02:00:32 PM
Annie,

That is exactly what I meant.  I knew those pictures were of FS and that's why I said that if that middle picture was the only picture of FS that we had and we had never seen the un re-touched photos, the even we might think that FS was truly AA and that AA was truly Anastasia.

At least that is what I think I said   ???

Or am I misinterpreting.  Since that picture is proven to be FS then it can only mean that AA was FS and never could have been Anastasia, only FS pretending to be AA and therefore pretending to be Anastasia  ???   ???  I think I am confusing myself.   :-\

Okay, gotcha! ;) You're right!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Temperance on August 07, 2007, 02:25:31 PM
The DNA did prove it, though I never thought she looked like the real Anastasia anyway.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 07, 2007, 11:26:39 PM
Not sure what thread to put this in, I'm sure it's been seen before but I had forgotten how funny and outrageous the conspiracy theories were! This goes right to his 'conclusions' and just above it are some weird theories about the DNA tests  :o :o

http://www.freewarehof.org/manahans.html#summary


or go all the way back up to the top for a cool picture of Anna and John!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 08, 2007, 06:39:28 AM
The DNA did prove it, though I never thought she looked like the real Anastasia anyway.
Yes, it sure does prove that. DNA is very helpful. You can even realy tell she is Anastasia by looking at her many pictures that share no resemblence with those of Anastasia it is obvious. ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 08, 2007, 09:04:50 PM
Notice the way FS grabs her own fingers the same way as AA

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSManSumBK1.jpg)


(http://www.maragaleazzi.com/ita/img/anastasia/anna%20anderson.jpg)

I've seen lots of pics of her much older holding her hands even more like the FS pic. Must have been a nervous habit she couldn't break.

And compare AA's profile to Anastasia at Tobolsk age 16:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/sideview.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)


I think if AN had lived she'd have favored Olga A. I think she resembles her in that pic.
(http://www.omta.ru/polygraphy/romanovaotkrytki/_olga_alexandrovna.jpg)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 10, 2007, 11:47:23 AM
yes Annie she does resemble Olga in that picture if she would have lived she may look like Olga. Clearly in those pictures of AA she has no resemblence to Anastasia their features are very different. The Anastasia photo was taken in 1918 and then in 1920 their is no way in the world that is her it is impossible to change that much in looks for two years.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 10, 2007, 12:35:57 PM
Clearly in those pictures of AA she has no resemblence to Anastasia their features are very different. The Anastasia photo was taken in 1918 and then in 1920 their is no way in the world that is her it is impossible to change that much in looks for two years.

That's right, I think a lot of people don't realize that so little time had passed and she shouldn't have changed that much. This is another thing that makes me think some of the people who claimed her didn't really remember what the real AN looked like. Supporters like to say that a rifle butt to the face made her look different, but no, she would have a messed up version of AN's face, not a completely different face with different features!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: mikeycoleman on August 10, 2007, 01:06:01 PM
Absolutely!  Everyone here needs to pull out their high school yearbook and look at their photo.  Then find a photo of themselves 3, 5, even 10 years later and look at the "differences".

Not a whole lot, eh?

Mikey
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 10, 2007, 01:16:45 PM
Absolutely!  Everyone here needs to pull out their high school yearbook and look at their photo.  Then find a photo of themselves 3, 5, even 10 years later and look at the "differences".

Not a whole lot, eh?

Mikey

I graduated high school 28 years ago. Two years ago I moved back to my hometown after being gone 22 years. I was easily recognized in stores and gas stations by old classmates I hadn't seen since before I left, some I hadn't seen since junior high, and I can recognize them too. One guy who had red hair had gone totally bald and had a grey beard but I could still tell it was him. People may age, get fatter, skinnier, their hair may change styles and colors but their basic features and bone structure do not change. Another thing that makes it easy to recognize a person is their voice. Makes me wonder how many people who claimed AA as AN took the voice into consideration. I also wonder how many really knew and remembered Anastasia that well as distinct among the other girls. Some of those who 'recognized' her said stuff like 'those are Nicky's eye!' but it's not Nicky, it's Anastasia! Did they even know her eyes and face enough to know? I would say Mathilde K never met AN in her life, I mean, being Dad's old mistress, and being married to a member of the hated Vladimirovichi can you imagine what an awkward guest she'd have been at the palace? Yet the ones who knew her best, like Olga, denied her. There's a reason for that, she knew better. Some of the others who didn't know Anastasia personally that well didn't really know enough to be a judge of her.

But the difference between 16 and 18, that's really nothing at all. Back when I first got into the AA case as a kid, I didn't realize how soon after Ekaterinburg AA's emergence was supposed to be, and I didn't realize that people didn't change all that much in so short a time, and now that I'm older I know that their faces really don't switch features even years later.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Binky on August 10, 2007, 04:39:54 PM
Notice the way FS grabs her own fingers the same way as AA

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSManSumBK1.jpg)


(http://www.maragaleazzi.com/ita/img/anastasia/anna%20anderson.jpg)

I've seen lots of pics of her much older holding her hands even more like the FS pic. Must have been a nervous habit she couldn't break.

And compare AA's profile to Anastasia at Tobolsk age 16:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/sideview.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafsside.jpg)


I think if AN had lived she'd have favored Olga A. I think she resembles her in that pic.
(http://www.omta.ru/polygraphy/romanovaotkrytki/_olga_alexandrovna.jpg)

I dont think AA was Anastasia because AA had that pointy nose and Anastasia nose was all different and there lips and mouth were different too.  But these two pictures DO NOT show a woman holding her hands the same way like.  You cant just make up stuff because you want it to be that way.  And its kind of dumb to post the pictures yourselve that show different from what your'e saying.  Thanks for listening.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 10, 2007, 04:56:17 PM
But these two pictures DO NOT show a woman holding her hands the same way like.  You cant just make up stuff because you want it to be that way.  And its kind of dumb to post the pictures yourselve that show different from what your'e saying.  Thanks for listening.

Well I'm sorry Binky. I know they're not exactly alike but in both she is holding onto her fingers, not latching them the way most folks do. This picture was not a good example, I was thinking of another one but I couldn't find it. So now I guess I'm as bad as the AA people posting pics that don't really look alike and going 'oh look at this!' But I shouldn't be that desperate because AA isn't anyway.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 10, 2007, 05:11:05 PM
Clearly in those pictures of AA she has no resemblence to Anastasia their features are very different. The Anastasia photo was taken in 1918 and then in 1920 their is no way in the world that is her it is impossible to change that much in looks for two years.

That's right, I think a lot of people don't realize that so little time had passed and she shouldn't have changed that much. This is another thing that makes me think some of the people who claimed her didn't really remember what the real AN looked like. Supporters like to say that a rifle butt to the face made her look different, but no, she would have a messed up version of AN's face, not a completely different face with different features!
You know. that is an excuse they say just to make it seem more like that AA was A. They always look for excuses to disgree with the truth we have to tell. I am realy getting sick and tired of what they have to say.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 14, 2007, 03:06:17 AM
Anna Andersonw as Franziska Schankowska. It is so simple to work out. Just check the DNA results. There is nothing else to talk about AGR Bear. Put away your totally discredited information and try to do some accurate reading for a change. There is no longer any doubt at all on her identity. The case is closed.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 15, 2007, 02:11:47 AM
The purpose of the Survivors section is to allow a discussion of the possibility of survivors. Bob decided to allow this years ago. If you disagree with his decision, you are welcome to write him. However, until he changes his decision, we will continue to keep this area of discussion open. Please bear in mind that everyone who wants to discuss this topic area does not necessarily believe that AA was Anastasia. To continue to repeatedly insist that the case is closed is to say you do not accept our decision. We get it, you think it is. Please allow everyone the courtesy of making up their own minds.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: dmitri on August 15, 2007, 08:36:38 AM
I am sure others find information that helps them make up their own minds useful.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 15, 2007, 09:15:35 AM
Thank you! I get so tired of bear presenting things as 'facts' that are really just comments that can't be proven. And she accuses ME of inaccurate information? She and the other AA supporters give misleading info all the time.

Annie, obviously they need to check the DNA again and read more books about the romanovs becuase they are refusing to recieve the fact that FS IS AA. Bear information is realy information that can't be proved, so what if it came from articles that does not mean it is a fact.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Annie on August 15, 2007, 09:44:39 AM
Thank you! I get so tired of bear presenting things as 'facts' that are really just comments that can't be proven. And she accuses ME of inaccurate information? She and the other AA supporters give misleading info all the time.

Annie, obviously they need to check the DNA again and read more books about the romanovs becuase they are refusing to recieve the fact that FS IS AA. Bear information is realy information that can't be proved, so what if it came from articles that does not mean it is a fact.

Exactly! If an article is against AA, they will tear it apart and call the writer a 'liar' but if something favors AA it's a 'fact' ::) Shows how much they really want the 'truth.'
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 15, 2007, 10:44:25 AM
All they are doing is supporting AA claims anything that is imfprmation  that is agaist her they will try to protect her and defend it by bringing all those articles and whole bunch of junk. :D Please Bear give it a break. We understand.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska Part 5
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2007, 11:50:25 AM
This is pretty basic.   Did the Wingender sister claim that FS was taller than her 5 feet 4 inches]?

Yes?

No?

Pick one.

AGRBear



I guess it  is pretty hard to deny testimony given during a trial  because  it's recorded by the court and saved for everyone to see for those who'd like to go to Germany and read the transcript.  The Wingenders did say that FS was taller than either of them.  Which means,  they remember FS as being taller than AA's 5 ' 2 "  who was shorter than both sisters.

Now,  some of you can go on and on about how people can lie in court.  Lie or not,  this is what was recorded.   Denying it was said is a mistake for those of us who believe AA was not GD Anastasia.

AGRBear