Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Yussupovs => Topic started by: ashanti01 on October 21, 2004, 01:55:54 AM

Title: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 21, 2004, 01:55:54 AM
 ::) I'm going to give this a shot because perhaps there is someone who knows more about this than I.

I had once heard a rumor that Xenia's lover who she always noted as "F" in her journals was actually Felix, Princess Yussupovs husband, which would make her Zeneide, Sandro's mistress.

Far fetched I know...but it sound believable at the time.

If this is not true, did she ever at some point has a romantic realtionship with someone besides her husband?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 21, 2004, 09:18:26 AM
I thought that too but someone told me F was an Englishman. I would like to think it was Sandro. She was his first crush when he was a young boy. She was 5 years older than him and she was married before he ever had a chance to court her. It would be interesting, though scandalous, to image them as lovers, but what a thought!

Another thing about her love life is, as people say with Alix, why didn't she have more children? When I read in Lost Splendor that she was disappointed  at Felix being a boy because she'd had 3 boys (2 died as babies :'( ) and wanted a girl badly, and when he was a boy she dressed him as a girl, I had assumed she was older and couldn't have more kids. When I found out she was only 25 when Felix was born, I wondered why she didn't try again, or is that when she and her husband started, um, having seperate quarters, oh never mind, I feel like such a nosey gossip.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 21, 2004, 06:47:15 PM
Annie---very good observation

She was young when Felix was born, but I have never heard why she never had any more children or if she and her husband had seperate bedrooms but I think it was a lot more often for couples to have seprate rooms back them.

The idea of her and Sandro doesn't seem too far out. I mean Z.Y was very beautiful into her 50's and F's description from Xenia's papers, does seem to match what is known of Felix...but like you said how scandelous it would have been
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 21, 2004, 07:05:54 PM
I suspected they had seperate rooms but it was confirmed looking at the pics posted here, there are seperate pics for her rooms and his. Some were joined by a staircase, and it does not mean they stopped having you know what, I guess it's really none of my beeswax! :-[  I also think because she was slender and an avid dancer perhaps she was afraid of ending up heavy and matronly before her time, again, just guessing. One more guess, she did have trouble having one of the babies who died and was near death when she was miraculously saved by Father John Kronstadt.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Greg_King on October 22, 2004, 10:12:01 PM
As an adjunct to all of this: I have read (I have the information somewhere here in my notes, and can post the details if anyone is interested) that Zenaide's huband Felix actually had a male lover in Moscow named Paul something.  When I read that I admit I was pretty shocked and surprised, and not terribly convinced, but apparently this guy's memoirs (Paul) have been published in Russia now and give details.

Greg King
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Martyn on October 23, 2004, 11:00:27 AM
Talk about set the cat amongst the pigeons!  I don't think that I have ever heard that one before.  Greg can you please give us a little more info about this please?
Just imagine, the talk has always been about Felix (jnr)'s sexual proclivities - how ironic!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 23, 2004, 11:22:58 AM
Holy  :o  :o  :o
Her husband had a male lover????What the...PLEASE post more information on this and what was her reaction to this?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 23, 2004, 11:59:36 AM
This from the man who told his son he 'wasn't fit to breathe the same air as decent folk' for wearing girls' clothes? Gasp. Is there any more on this?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 23, 2004, 01:38:49 PM
If he was carrying on with a man, why was he throwing sucha fit with Felix?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Janet_W. on October 23, 2004, 02:25:30 PM
If true, this would be yet another case of "Do as I say, not as I do"!

Also--and again, if this is true--he may have been chiding Felix for not being more circumspect, as well as not marrying and begeting an heir.

Once these duties were accomplished, many husbands felt free to do whatever they wanted, with whomever!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 23, 2004, 02:38:58 PM
But he was only 12 when that incident happened.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Janet_W. on October 23, 2004, 02:54:19 PM
Aha!  :P  Well, then I'll retract what I said about marriage and begetting a child, but perhaps the senior Felix saw qualities in Felix junior which he recognized in his own personality, and which he therefore wanted to modify in his son. Parents are like that, as we know from other examples of European royalty (i.e., Queen Victoria's dismay with her eldest son, Princess Grace's dismay with her daughters, etc.) . . . and probably from our own experiences as well!  ;)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on October 23, 2004, 03:28:08 PM
Oh my, Oh my (etc,etc,etc)

Really, i have just read this and simply cannot give credit to my eyes: Felix having a homosexual affair??? I would have never imagined anything like that. He looked so male(in spanish i would use the word "macho")...but well, this can be too often a simple mask.

I cannot help but finding it so funny, all the most(as Janet remarked) because of his attitude towards his son´s lifestyle. In his defence i must say that his young son deserved a good talk about his wild night adventure wearing his mother´s clothes and jewells. You´ll agree that´s too much for a father to endure :)

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 23, 2004, 03:34:09 PM
I feel so bad for Princess Zinaida Yussupova. I wonder how she must have felt. Did she turn a blind eye??? All of the men who were after her and she ends up with man who appearntly was more attracted by men than her lovely face.

This is my shock of the day
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 23, 2004, 04:28:00 PM
It would seem obvious that both men had different ways of expressing themselves-sexually.  Sr. must have preferred the quiet, private behind doors passion, while Jr. well, like it a bit more flamboyant ?
This is no different that any of us today, is it?
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 23, 2004, 09:51:39 PM
Yeah, Old Felix seemed to hang out with military types and Felix the more 'bohemian' types. There are parts of Lost Splendor where he mentions his Dad spending a great deal of time in Moscow with associates, and that when they traveled they always drug along 'an entourage of people with whom my father could not live without' but he, Nicholas and Zenaida would rather have left at home. Whatever, if he was unfaithful, with a man, a woman, a cross dresser, it must have been awful for Zenaida. She had her choice of so many prospects, including KR, and could have had most any man in Russia, even Europe. Her father was disappointed with her choice because Old Felix was not that high of a station (of course being about 4-5 months pregnant, she pretty much had to marry him then!)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Greg_King on October 23, 2004, 11:05:59 PM
Alright, let me do some looking-I think I bookmarked the link somewhere; I know I copied the text out to possibly use and cite but ended up not doing so, so it may take me a day or so to find this again.  I can't vouch for the veracity of the story, but, like everyone above, I remember being shocked and thinking, "Oh, boy..."

Greg King
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Greg_King on October 23, 2004, 11:37:13 PM
OK, here are the basics.  This information comes from:

http://www.gay.ru/english/history/moscow/18611917.htm

and a paper by Professor Dan Healey called "The Appearance of a Homosexual Subculture in Imperial Russia."

In 1912, a 17 year old peasant named Paul arrived in Moscow and soon became a male prostitute.  At this time, the senior Prince Felix was Governor-General, and apparently the two met and began an affair.  The Prince eventually appointed Paul to his Household to avoid any talk, although there were apparently two other male servants, a cook, and a coachman, that the Prince kept on staff in Moscow as sexual partners as well.

The information from which this is drawn is given in Note 17 at the bottom of the page; here it makes it clear that this is the father of Prince Felix Yusupov who is being discussed.

Again, I don't know more about it than this-and don't have reference to the materials cited in the footnote to check it out.

Greg King
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: james_h on October 24, 2004, 04:11:01 AM

I'm sorry this is too funny...I have to say something.

Sooo Zenaide appears to have been surrounded by homosexuals/bisexuals
1. Her husband Felix
2. Her son felix
3. Would be husband number 1....The Grand Duke "K.R"
4 Grand Duke Sergei Romanov

Infact the only men in her life who appear not to have been, are her father and eldest son.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on October 24, 2004, 05:43:44 AM
Thanks so much for the link Greg,

It´s quite amazing the way we study someone´s life and just to learn that we know, in fact, so little about him/her....


Quote
Her father was disappointed with her choice because Old Felix was not that high of a station (of course being about 4-5 months pregnant, she pretty much had to marry him then!)


And now, i´m again surprised and beginning to think i know nothing about the Yusupovs! Annie, do you mean that Zenaida was already pregnant when she married Felix???

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Martyn on October 24, 2004, 06:40:32 AM
Do we find it surprising that Felix senior made a distinction between his own essentially private conduct and Felix jnr's very public conduct?  It would seem from Greg's post that Felix snr went to some lengths to ensure that his activities were contained within his household, probably for two reasons.  Firstly the convenience factor and secondly that it might possibly minimise gossip/blackmail.  I'm not overlooking the servant gossip potential but as Robert rightly pointed out in another post in the Ernie thread, people at this level of society lived very public lives - even their domestic lives were conducted under the watchful eyes of servants.
From what Greg has told us, Felix snr selected his partners from the lower orders of society which would seem to indicate that they fulfilled a function in much the same way as the rest of his household; the fact that they were made members of his establishmment is not simply coincidence.
Who knows what Zenaida made of it, if indeed she knew.  We must remember that whist we live in a cynical and wordly society theirs was equally so; women at that level of society were almost schooled to accept that their husbands may not remain faithful.  After all Zenaida may have found this situation more tolerable than Alexandra Iosifovna's; the latter was faced not just with repeated infidelity but also a the close proximity of a second family.
Felix jnr's behaviour is another matter.  Let us not forget that many men who are cross dressers are in fact heterosexual.  Do we have evidence to suggest that this became part of his lifestyle or did it cease after his parents were made aware of his nocturnal activities?
At any rate both men ultimately conformed to the standards that were expected from them; they both maintained marriages and produced children.  I would hazard a guess that Felix snr's behaviour had a strong element of conformity despite its seeming lack of it; a military background, the company of men and male pursuits, sexual activity that is seemingly purely physical and relegated to below stairs - all the time maintaining face publicly and presenting a very masculine profile to Society.
Felix jnr however seemed to want to kick over the traces of acceptable behaviour and flout the conventions of Society - that was the issue that caused the conflict with his father.  
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 24, 2004, 08:10:45 AM
Quote
Thanks so much for the link Greg,

It´s quite amazing the way we study someone´s life and just to learn that we know, in fact, so little about him/her....



And now, i´m again surprised and beginning to think i know nothing about the Yusupovs! Annie, do you mean that Zenaida was already pregnant when she married Felix???



She was pregnant when she married Felix!!!??? :o
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 08:25:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Antonio

 Annie, do you mean that Zenaida was already pregnant when she married Felix???
 


Quote

She was pregnant when she married Felix!!!??? :o


I've never seen this written, but I noticed that they were married on April 9, 1882, and her son Nicholas was born in July of that same year.

Their silver (25th) wedding anniversary was in April 1907.

When the duel was mentioned in Lost Splendor, Felix stated that Zenaida was increasingly worried because Nicholas was only a few days shy of his 26th birthday, and for several generations in her family only one heir of each generation had survived past age 25. Nicholas died in the summer of 1908, just before reaching 26. 1882+26=1908.

Also, Felix mentions many times a 5 year age difference between he and his brother, 1887-5= 1882, so there, you do the math, it all adds up.

She was not only pregnant but likely starting to show at the time of her wedding, perhaps this is to account for the small ceremony at the chapel of the Chevelier Guards instead of the much bigger extravaganza one might expect for the richest and most beautiful girl in all of Russia.

I can only image, but won't bother to speculate, on how long it took her to admit her condition to her father and what a difficult situation that must have been for both of them. So while it is often boasted that she was 'determined to choose her own husband' and her father, who had 'imagined his daughter on a throne' reluctantly agreed to the match, there seems to have been more to it than that.

We learn something new about those alleged stuffy and virtuous Victorians all the time ;)


Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on October 24, 2004, 09:42:33 AM
Thanks so much for your explanation, Annie, you´re very observative :).

I had also all of that information about birth date and marriage date but have never even thought about checking such a thing.

It´s not that i consider it that bad to be pregnant before marriage, but in those times of constant chaperons and overprotected fiercely guarded nurseries i wonder how she could find, or even think of, the oportunity to have so "intimate relations" with her fiancee....PLEASE, i wish someone could explain that to me... ???
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 24, 2004, 10:13:07 AM
WOW ANNIE!!
So when the math is done, the only real answer is that she was expecting at the time of the wedding.
It would explain the simple wedding.
How would she find the time to be alone with Felix? I mean I thought back then you had someone with you when you were courting to prevent anything from happening.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 10:52:17 AM
Then why would Felix himself say he was born in the summer of 1882? ??? Why would he say he was a few days before his 26th birthday in July 1908 if he wasn't? Why would he mention a five year age difference if it were only 4? I'd have to go with Felix first as a source, it's his brother. I would have to see a tombstone or a birth record to be sure. Someone later may have 'doctored' the date later to spare the family shame in some sources. There were a lot of 'preemies' in olden times because people were hiding something. (this even happened once in my family, also with someone born in the 1880's) but I believe Felix would know the true age of his own brother. And also, as we discussed, a pregnancy would account for a quickie small ceremony too.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 24, 2004, 11:41:06 AM
You have to think that is you are one of the wealthiest familys in the Russia, and your only surving daughter is getting married, you would be throwing a huge event.
But they didn't they had a small simple wedding in a small chapel.

I think I'll go searching for some info on Nicholas such as his birthdate, but like Annie said it could have easily have been changed to save face
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 12:43:09 PM
Ashanti, I would be interested in your results, I would not be surprised if there were conflicting results. The only book I ever saw his years of life typed in said 1882-1908, but I based his age on Felix's detailed accounts in Lost Splendor. He would have no reason to falsify it.

I don't know where the 1883 date came from and I'd probably believe the tombstone if anyone has a pic. As I said before, a relative of mine had his birthdate falsified to cover the fact that his mother was 2 months preggers when she was married (which was a disgrace back then even in America) I also know someone personally right now who for years lied about her anniversary to her kids, saying it was a year earlier to conceal the fact that her first child was born 'out of wedlock' but she admitted the truth later. Other ways of covering these 'scandals' in the past were claiming the baby was 'premature' and also sending a teenage girl away to stay with an aunt or grandmother and having the relative 'claim' the baby when it was born so the girl could go back home with an untarnished rep on the marriage market.

I do think the small wedding is the biggest giveway something was going on.


here is the passage from Lost Splendor that states the duel was within days of Nicholas' 26th birthday:

"I had a talk with your brother this evening," she said; "all the rumors of a duel are pure inventions; everything has been arranged. You can't imagine how happy I am. I dreaded the duel, because Nicholas will be twenty-six in a few days."

It was then that I heard of the strange fate which it appears has pursued the Yussupov family since its earliest days: in each generation all the heirs but one die before reaching the age of twenty-six. My mother had had four sons, of whom only Nicholas and I survived. She had never ceased to fear for each of us in turn. The threat of a duel coinciding with the approach of my brother's twenty-sixth birthday had made her anxiety almost unbearable.


This is straight from Felix himself, unless he is lying, but why would he? ???
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 24, 2004, 02:16:52 PM
At this point I think its very key that records of Nicholas birth be found, I have not been able to find any real inforamation on him, only on Felix.

Can anyone help with this?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 02:17:10 PM
She may have been afraid to tell until it was obvious, it happens, even today. ("Papa Don't Preach") She was a 20 year old girl with a lot of high expectations and if it were true it must have been a real dilemma. I agree it is like a nosey tabloid story and I do feel bad gossiping about Zenaida, she is a favorite of mine. But I would never have speculated if the dates did not point to it they way they did. I'm not making this up, I'm going by dates given by Felix himself.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 24, 2004, 02:24:29 PM
As the heir to the largest private fortune, young and very beatiful it was no secret her family hoped for a great match. If she was pregnant,  I could imagine why she would try to hide it as long as possible out of pure fear, it happens today where its almost normal.

The dates Felix has given are the only real source we have at this moment and going by those date, she was expecting at the time of her wedding
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 02:29:17 PM
Quote
As the heir to the largest private fortune, young and very beatiful it was no secret her family hoped for a great match. If she was pregnant,  I could imagine why she would try to hide it as long as possible out of pure fear, it happens today where its almost normal.

The dates Felix has given are the only real source we have at this moment and going by those date, she was expecting at the time of her wedding


I agree, that's how I see it until if and when other evidence surfaces.

It couldn't have been easy for her to just run to Dad and say she was 'knocked up.' Her mother and older sister had died, it was just her and him, and he had such plans for her. I wouldn't blame her for not telling until she had to, and then it had to have been hard. (assuming this is what happened.)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 05:13:24 PM
I would love to see that, anyone have a scan?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 24, 2004, 07:50:32 PM
For what it may be worth, Burke's gives Felix's birthdate as 24 March 1887
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 24, 2004, 09:34:46 PM
Felix himself gives his birthday as March 24, 1887 in Lost Splendor, but his tombstone says March 11, 1887- this is due to the 'old style' calendar. I have seen a few wrong dates for his birth given online though. If there is any record of Nicholas's birth anywhere but that one book, plus what Felix wrote in Lost Splendor, maybe it will turn up. It would be good to see his tombstone, has anyone been to Archangelskoe and seen it?





Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Greg_King on October 24, 2004, 11:11:40 PM
Last time I was at Arkhangelskoye I didn't get into the Mausoleum, but I have a friend who was there 5 years ago and photographed the inside, so I asked what his pictures showed-and Nicholas's monument in the Mausoleum gives the year of his birth as 1883-because of the angle of the photo he can't make out the month and day of his birth nor the first few words on each line of the inscription.  But his grave says 1883.  This is also confirmed by 2 books on Arkhangelskoye that I looked at here, which list Nicholas as 1883-1908, and by a quick look at the official Arkhangelskoye web site and its paragraph on Klein's mausoleum.  So it looks as if that's correct.

Given Felix's penchant for over-dramatizing A LOT in "Lost Splendor," I wouldn't be surprised if he had made up the whole "26th birthday" issue.  As it stands, the other evidence does not support the idea that Nicholas was born in 1882.

Greg King
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 25, 2004, 09:28:51 AM
I don't think anyone would lie on a tombstone, and I do think Felix is capable of overdramatizing the birthday thing. I still don't get the ceremony thing, oh well, I'm just being nosey. As my old great aunt Delight used to say when I was snooping into the family, leave those old people alone, they're dead, whatever they didn't want you to know, respect that.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 25, 2004, 08:11:25 PM
I still can't see why Felix would have lied about his brothers birthday

Back to Zeneide, does anyone know if she was involve with anyone, I mean someone as pretty as herself and with a husband appearantly going else where for attention, what is a girl to do?

I know I'm being nosy but I really can't help myself ;D
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 26, 2004, 01:19:49 PM
I have always thought it was strange there were no official wedding photos, is this verified to be one? If someone has it I'd love to have a scan of it. Heck, I'd love to have a copy of any Zenaida picture!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 26, 2004, 01:57:47 PM
As famous as they were I would think there would be more photos of them.

Can anyone provide wedding photos?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 26, 2004, 02:19:04 PM
I wish you had a scanner! But what can you do?

I don't think Felix was a very handsome man. I think Sandro was very handsome... but oh, well.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on October 26, 2004, 05:36:59 PM
I never knew what she saw in Old Felix either. As young Felix wrote in his book, he felt she'd have been happier with 'a different sort of man.' But she did seem to love him.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on October 28, 2004, 03:24:59 PM
I was just reading that KR was at some point intrested in Zeneide. Did she ever really consider him as a possible husband?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on November 19, 2004, 10:15:08 PM
I wonder that too!

Back to the subject of Zenaida being possibly pregnant when she wed, I just found this in this website's bio of Zenaida:

Selflessly, Zenaide abandoned her own pleasures and interests and centered her life round her family. She and her husband had two sons, Prince Nicholas, born in 1882, and Prince Felix, born in 1887

This would back up the 'pregnant' theory since they married in April 1882, as we discussed.

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/zenaide.html
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on November 20, 2004, 09:11:44 AM
Uhm.......

It is sounding more and more likely that she was expecting at the time of her wedding.

What a scandel it would have been! But people in love do crazy stuff, it happened even then.



Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: missmoldavite on January 01, 2005, 09:08:33 PM
This thread is most interesting. I am rather interested to know a little more about the heirs all but one dying before the age of 26...why was this? and was it true? and if true, what documents support this?.

PS How are we to know who the biological father was to young nicholas and felix.... hmmm. very interesting. :P
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Valmont on January 02, 2005, 02:28:46 AM
I do not think the issue here is who the father was, but that she was pregnant when she got married,  that  could be the reason why her wedding was not as flamboyant as  a princess of her "rank" would have had..
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on January 02, 2005, 10:11:48 AM
Quote
I do not think the issue here is who the father was, but that she was pregnant when she got married,  that  could be the reason why her wedding was not as flamboyant as  a princess of her "rank" would have had..



Very true... if the Yussupovs considered themselves above the Romanovs then why wouldn't they have a flamboyant wedding to display thier lovely daughter and vast wealth??

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on January 02, 2005, 01:01:33 PM
Quote
I do not think the issue here is who the father was, but that she was pregnant when she got married,  that  could be the reason why her wedding was not as flamboyant as  a princess of her "rank" would have had..


Exactlly! There is not a question of paternity, and even if there were it wouldn't matter because the Yussupov line was the MOTHER'S family so the kids would still be heirs to the fortune regardless of who the father was.

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on January 02, 2005, 01:02:53 PM
Quote


Very true... if the Yussupovs considered themselves above the Romanovs then why wouldn't they have a flamboyant wedding to display thier lovely daughter and vast wealth??




That, to me, (along with the time frame and the ladder in front of the stomach pic) make me draw the 'pregnant when married' conclusion ;) They would have wanted to put on a show to rival any royal wedding, if there was nothing to hide.

I also did not know that they thought of themselves as superior to the Romanovs, that's interesting and kind of funny!
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on January 02, 2005, 02:18:44 PM
I have read in several places where the Yussupov did believe themselves above the Romanovs.

So if this was the case why the simple low key wedding? Unless there was something they were trying to hide
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Kätlin on January 02, 2005, 03:40:05 PM
In the russian edition of Felix's memoirs (from the early 90s), there was a photo of Zenaida & Felix senior's wedding and she doesn't look pregnant there ???
Unfortunately I can't scan it, maybe someone else can send it?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Martyn on January 03, 2005, 12:29:20 PM
Quote
In the russian edition of Felix's memoirs (from the early 90s), there was a photo of Zenaida & Felix senior's wedding and she doesn't look pregnant there ???
Unfortunately I can't scan it, maybe someone else can send it?


It is one thing to be pregnant, or 'enceinte' in the parlance of the time, and another to look it.  It was perfectly possible for a lady of the time to be in such a condition and still look quite acceptable due to the efficacy of corsets and tight-lacing.
Though I don't think that anyone has established that Nicholas was born in 1882 and not 1883, have they?  Or have I missed something?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on January 03, 2005, 01:18:47 PM
I was thinking about corsets too. Though I am someone who 'shows' early in pregnancy, I have known women personally who were still almost flat stomached well into their fifth or even sixth month then suddenly poofed out. The same person who posted here that it was 1883 is the same person who wrote the bio stating it was 1882, so I'm just as confused as ever. It does seem like something is ' fishy' and being hidden, as such hush-hush things were in Victorian times. The lack of hard proof makes me even more suspicious. Until I see real evidence I'm going by the numbers given by Felix in Lost Splendor, that his brother was 5 years older than him, and that he was turning 26 in 1908 (both add up to it being 1882)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on January 03, 2005, 02:50:46 PM
If you have a slim figure and have a corest on, it wouldn't the that hard to hide your "condition"
But like Annie said, there are many woman who simply do not show until thier last months.
I had a friend who did not show until she was 7 months, even then it was a tiny bump.

I agree with you Annie, our best source so far is Felix himself
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Valmont on January 03, 2005, 03:07:30 PM
Even thou Felix is not a very reliable source, I think it is the best source we have so far regarding this issue.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 03, 2005, 04:41:09 PM
Quote
This from the man who told his son he 'wasn't fit to breathe the same air as decent folk' for wearing girls' clothes?  
Hey, isn't that the way that always goes!  ;)  

What an interesting topic, and I don't think this qualifies as gossip since these people are part of history and we're just trying to figure out what kind of human beings they were.

One idea about the small wedding, I think I read somewhere that her parents did not approve of Zinaida's choice of a husband, and she had to rebel against them and put her foot down until they agreed to let her marry him. So maybe it had something to do with that...   ???
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Annie on January 03, 2005, 04:51:08 PM
Her mother had already passed away in 1879 :( It was just her father, and he was not pleased with her choice at all. He wanted her 'on a throne' from what most books I've read said. He probably would have been happy with KR as a son in law, he was a high born Romanov Grand Duke, she was a bit old for Nicholas. I wonder if any Tsar would have considered a Yussoupov a good match?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 03, 2005, 05:03:55 PM
Quote
I've read said. He probably would have been happy with KR as a son in law, he was a high born Romanov Grand Duke...
 Yes, and even though Felix was of the nobility, he came from some illegitimate branch, if I remember correctly, so not as prestigous I suppose. Well, in any case, maybe this was the reason why Zinaida did not get a huge wedding? Or maybe it was due to both reasons, her being pregnant and because her father was not happy  with the choice of a husband. I am sure that if the former was also true, this fact would not have endeared Felix any more to his bride's father  ;).
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Kätlin on January 03, 2005, 05:26:55 PM
Annie:
I wonder if any Tsar would have considered a Yussoupov a good match?  

Well, Irina had to give up her succession rights due to her morganatic marriage, so the Yussupovs weren't considered equals. Although it seems that her family objected their marriage probably more because of his lifestyle and his non-royal backround didn't seem to be a problem.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Zenaida1861 on February 01, 2005, 12:50:19 PM
But the Yusupovs considered themselves superior, I wonder how they felt about that?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on February 08, 2005, 12:45:11 AM
As anyone ever wondered if Felix Senior married Zeneida as a way of climbing the social latter and her wealth?

The thought just hit me as I was re-reading a post about Felix's possible involvement with another man. I just started thinking how did he feel about his wife? Its very odvious many men were basically throwing themselves at her feet, but she chose him yet I have never read anything that defines his feelings for her.


Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: katusha on July 25, 2005, 05:31:26 PM
You are talking about my great, great grandfather and as far as I know he wasn't so much the natural son but the product of a marganatic marriiage. His tutor, I think, was English, and accompanied him to Russia, where his aunt was Tsarina. He had for protection, his tutor's name. If they have to be discussed, the facts have to be right.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Valmont on July 28, 2005, 07:51:54 PM
Really??.. And why don't you enlight us  with your family history so we can bring some light  into the darkness.... and get things "straighten" ...

Let's start with your Great Great Grandfather.....How did the story begin???
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Arleen on July 28, 2005, 08:08:59 PM
I am interested too Katuska.

..Arleen
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: pentetorri on July 29, 2005, 01:30:07 PM
what happened, Katusha? where are the facts that you so much care?

At this pace, I am the great great great..... grandson of Cleopatra.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on July 30, 2005, 01:32:52 AM
Quote
what happened, Katusha? where are the facts that you so much care?

At this pace, I am the great great great..... grandson of Cleopatra.




i second that....


besides, katusha, there's no reason to be so condescending or holier-than-thou about things.    what i wrote was what i had read.    i have never, ever claimed be an authority on any subject and i am always willing to accept criticism & suggestions etc.   i can even handle being told i'm wrong ( i don't like it, but i can handle it, and even accept it)....but i, of course, need proof that i am wrong.

i have read every biography of the junior Feliks (husband of Irina) that i know of; i have read his autobiography; and i have read the Ferrand history of the Yusupov & Sumarokov-Elston families, and i'm sorry, but nowhere in any of those volumes do i remember reading any part of what you claim to be the real "facts".     a morganatic marriage?
just how likely is that, really?    wouldn't the junior Feliks have latched onto that fact immediately and written it into his narrative?


katusha, whoever you are, and whoever your ancestors may, or may not be, please be more polite next time, alright?    i know i would appreciate it.  
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Forum Admin on July 30, 2005, 08:49:04 AM
I must second what Brian wrote.  I meant no disrespect to your family at all.  The most complete bio of the family and most "objective" is the Ferrand book, and I was just reporting what M. Ferrand wrote.  If your family has better evidence and information, I am certain that everyone here would be excited to have it.

FA
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Valmont on August 01, 2005, 03:08:11 PM
Some how I have the feeling we are dealing with another ...How should I call them...?.... I do not want to sound disrepectfull and call them "looneys".....
But to be honest.. I cannot find another word to describe them better than that..
Unless proven differently, I think  Katusha  could be another "Rodger like" Yussupov's relative.....
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 01, 2005, 05:33:31 PM
Quote
Some how I have the feeling we are dealing with another ...How should I call them...?.... I do not want to sound disrepectfull and call them "looneys".....
But to be honest.. I cannot find another word to describe them better than that..
Unless proven differently, I think  Katusha  could be another "Rodger like" Yussupov's relative.....



that possibility had crossed my mind too.....
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Tasha_R on August 01, 2005, 09:45:59 PM
If I may, I believe folks might be a bit hasty here in condemning Katusha.  Please remember that not everyone on this forum speaks English as well as everyone else and what may come across as being impolite may instead be misunderstood on either end.

If you go to the thread on the Elston genealogy, you will see that there is the senior Feliks is descended from Countess Andrassey and Baron von Hugel.  While I believe the Forum Administrator posted this from the Jacques Ferrand book, it's information does not map to what Felix Youssouppof wrote himself in "Lost Splendor" about his being descended from Countess Tiesenhausen and a liaison between the Countess and Prince Friedrich Wilhelm IV of Prussia.

There are some genealogies on the web that show him to be descended instead from a liaison between Countess Andrassey (a Hungarian Countess - Count Andrassey, although I'm not certain if this was her husband or not, was a strong political figure in Hungaria during Sissi's time) and Prince Wilhelm I of Prussia.

So, to my mind, there certainly are some discrepancies/mysteries to be cleared up here, and I'm not sure that I would believe one author over another.

If one were to compare pictures of the senior Feliks to either of the Prussian rulers, he most certainly more resembles Wilhelm - but who says the son has to look more like the father than the father's brother?

Remember, too, that Felix Youssouppof spoke of the history (an actual book or document) on that side having been lost in his book "Lost Splendor".

I mean no disrespect, especially to Valmont and the Forum Administrator, whom I know to be both very knowledgable in this area.  However, in asking your questions the way you did of Katusha, I fear she may not wish to answer them - nor would I blame her.

I know that the Forum has been flooded with "claimants", and it gets a bit tiresome, yes.  But there are eyes of those who truly are related looking at this as well, who might be reticent to "speak up", especially if the welcome they are given is as such.

Just a thought.

Best to all,
Tasha
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Forum Admin on August 02, 2005, 09:03:21 AM
Here is exactly what M. Ferrand says (am translating from the French, my copy is the original French version, not the English translation)
"Ever since I believe I have exhaustively examined all of the evidence available establishing that Elston was not the son of Catherine Tiesenhausen and a Prussian Prince, but rather was the natural born son of Baron Charles von Hugel and Josephine nee Comtesse Andrassy, wife of Comte Nicholas Forgach von Ghymes.  

"Elston's son, Felix, inherited all of Catherine's papers, and so one would think he might have examined their contents. For one reason or another, perhaps because of his marriage to Princess Zenaida Yussupov, he decided to keep them secret in order to give credence to the Hohenzollern/Elston legend.  The enormous fortune Zenaida inherited gave him immense prestige throughout Europe. ... It is entirely possible that it was under Princess Zinaida's influence that the Comte de Sonis had "ommitted" all of Dolly's letters (Dolly being Elston's sister) mentioning Elston's origin "in order to give credence to an origin for Elston far more flattering than he had in reality". ... "If Felix Elston was born in 1820 and if his father really had been a Prince of the House of Hohenzollern he would have actually been recognized as such during his life.  King Frederich-Wilhelm II of Prussia, who died in 1797, had, with three different mistresses, nine illegitimate children who were all given noble titles.  The two illegitimite children of Prince August of Prussia (1779-1843) and Fredericka Wichman were received into the Prussian nobility under the name of "von Waldenburg".  To have the King Wilhelm II or Prince Wilhelm of Prussia or the brother of the King Wilhelm IV as Elston's father, there is simply no doubt that he would have been received into the Prussian nobility in the same manner.  This is confirmed by Mr. Addington who is an expert in the geneaology of the House of Hohenzollern.
...
Unfortunately we can not establish beyond doubt the name of Elston's mother until such time as  the soviet authorities make Countess Forgach's letters to Elston accessable. However, I believe that I may positively confirm the his mother was not Catherine Tiesenhausen and in this I have the support of Serge Nabukov.  Except for Prince Felix III Yussopov, none of the other grandchildren of Felix I had ever accepted Catherine as their grandmother. Elston's grandson Michael Nicholaievich Count Sumarkov Elston has told me that he asked his uncle Felix II about the origins of Elston.  He answered that his father had tried, as well as the other children, but could not dig up the actual origins. However my grandfather, as well as the Sumarkov parents knew full well that Elston's mother's name was Forgach.

In my opinion, Elston never sought to hide his mother's name. It was his father's name he hid in order to protect his legitimate family.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 03, 2005, 12:27:52 PM
Quote
If I may, I believe folks might be a bit hasty here in condemning Katusha.  Please remember that not everyone on this forum speaks English as well as everyone else and what may come across as being impolite may instead be misunderstood on either end.
(....)
I mean no disrespect, especially to Valmont and the Forum Administrator, whom I know to be both very knowledgable in this area.  However, in asking your questions the way you did of Katusha, I fear she may not wish to answer them - nor would I blame her.

I know that the Forum has been flooded with "claimants", and it gets a bit tiresome, yes.  But there are eyes of those who truly are related looking at this as well, who might be reticent to "speak up", especially if the welcome they are given is as such.

Just a thought.

Best to all,
Tasha



y'know, you make several very good points.   as often as my poorly worded statements have been misunderstood (here and in life), i probably should have been less quick to assume she was being condescending...   i must admit, though, when my Southern blood & upbringing tells me that someone is being condescending, they usually are.    although it's much more difficult to judge these days (ie: the internet vs face-to-face).    then again, my Southern manners should have kicked in and reminded me that a gentleman always, always gives a lady the benefit-of-a-doubt.    (i may be, and am, many things....but i'm always {well, usually} a gentleman).

and you're correct about others (true descendants) being hesitant in the face of such glaring doubt.    however, no-one can simply expect to be believed.    if we automatically gave credence to every statement of descent, this forum would probably be crawling with would-be princes & princesses, each one basking in the glow of our misplaced awe & admiration.   and while i believe that, in most cases, no-one should ever feel the need to prove who they are to anyone, in an arena such as this, if someone makes such a claim, they should be able and willing to "back it up".    

in other words: if i make such a claim in this forum, i cannot simply assume or expect that i will be automatically believed.   if i am who i claim to be, i shouldn't have any difficulty providing some sort of info (some family tid-bit or historical anecdote or something) and while it may be tiresome, there really is no reason to object to such an explanation.  

if we are expected to believe, show us why.

i believe that everyone should be proud of who they are and where they come from, whether they're listed in the almanach de gotha or not.     i also believe in everyone's right to re-invent themselves if they so wish....but skepticism is a tool that we need in order to make informed decisions and we all run into it in various forms everyday.   it would be foolish for anyone to believe they wouldn't run into it here.      we should, however, be as polite as possible when we give voice to it.    

i need to remember that.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: AlexP on August 03, 2005, 02:18:40 PM
Quote


y'know, you make several very good points.   as often as my poorly worded statements have been misunderstood (here and in life), i probably should have been less quick to assume she was being condescending...   i must admit, though, when my Southern blood & upbringing tells me that someone is being condescending, they usually are.    although it's much more difficult to judge these days (ie: the internet vs face-to-face).    then again, my Southern manners should have kicked in and reminded me that a gentleman always, always gives a lady the benefit-of-a-doubt.    (i may be, and am, many things....but i'm always {well, usually} a gentleman).

and you're correct about others (true descendants) being hesitant in the face of such glaring doubt.    however, no-one can simply expect to be believed.    if we automatically gave credence to every statement of descent, this forum would probably be crawling with would-be princes & princesses, each one basking in the glow of our misplaced awe & admiration.   and while i believe that, in most cases, no-one should ever feel the need to prove who they are to anyone, in an arena such as this, if someone makes such a claim, they should be able and willing to "back it up".    

in other words: if i make such a claim in this forum, i cannot simply assume or expect that i will be automatically believed.   if i am who i claim to be, i shouldn't have any difficulty providing some sort of info (some family tid-bit or historical anecdote or something) and while it may be tiresome, there really is no reason to object to such an explanation.  

if we are expected to believe, show us why.

i believe that everyone should be proud of who they are and where they come from, whether they're listed in the almanach de gotha or not.     i also believe in everyone's right to re-invent themselves if they so wish....but skepticism is a tool that we need in order to make informed decisions and we all run into it in various forms everyday.   it would be foolish for anyone to believe they wouldn't run into it here.      we should, however, be as polite as possible when we give voice to it.    

i need to remember that.


Well, there is one more item here that should be at least brought up before it enters into the black whole of history.  There was a persistent but persistent rumor in St. Petersburg society from the moment of his "birth" and it followed him to his death that Felix Yussopov, fils, was not the natural son of the Yusspov family, but rather an orphan that had been adopted as a baby into the family as Mme Yussopova so wanted a larger family and by that her time her husband's bed was being shared with other men and not with her.  Everyone but everyone in pre-1917 Petersburg had heard this rumor, which in addition to his sexual proclivities, is one reason I believe that Felix, fils met with resistance when he tried to secure the hand of Irina in marriage.  In fact, one of the many comments that people of that era remember after he participated in the Rasputin slaying was that "he was not really a Yussopov, but rather..."  Again, this is high society gossip but it was very, very gossiped from one good family to the other.  Remember, Felix Sr. preferred military men to his wife, and I am sure that this contributed much to her poor nervous condition as she was truly a beautiful woman.  And Felix Sr. was truly a masculine, viril handsome man.

As for a Felix Jr. baptismal certificate, that was easy enough to arrange for a family with such connections.  Even in the Paris emigration after the Revolution these rumors abounded.

Will we ever know?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Tasha_R on August 04, 2005, 01:25:34 PM
Brian (liljones1968),
I understand where you're coming from.  Thank you for your explanation.

AlexP, wow... I had never heard that.

Imagine, for a moment, that you are a part of this family.  First of all, everyone talks about you (in high society, at least), from the legitimacy of Felix himself, to the fact that Felix insinuates the illegitimacy of his grandfather, to the fact that a murder/assisination (if even for the most honorable causes) occurred.

Then, there are multiple books that have been written, with some of them done by excellent researchers who counter the theories put forth by the family members themselves (Ferrand vs what Felix Youssoupoff wrote in his memoires).

I would find it no wonder to feel a certain aggrevation with the world in general in something that I would consider to basically be not of anyone else's business.  But, as I am sure most of the folks on this forum would agree, being born to privilege sometimes has the significant drawback of incurring the attention of many outside of the family circle.

Best regards,
Tasha
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 11, 2005, 02:59:36 AM
Quote
Brian (liljones1968),
I understand where you're coming from.  Thank you for your explanation.

AlexP, wow... I had never heard that.

Imagine, for a moment, that you are a part of this family.  First of all, everyone talks about you (in high society, at least), from the legitimacy of Felix himself, to the fact that Felix insinuates the illegitimacy of his grandfather, to the fact that a murder/assisination (if even for the most honorable causes) occurred.

Then, there are multiple books that have been written, with some of them done by excellent researchers who counter the theories put forth by the family members themselves (Ferrand vs what Felix Youssoupoff wrote in his memoires).

I would find it no wonder to feel a certain aggrevation with the world in general in something that I would consider to basically be not of anyone else's business.  But, as I am sure most of the folks on this forum would agree, being born to privilege sometimes has the significant drawback of incurring the attention of many outside of the family circle.

Best regards,
Tasha




well, once someone in your family writes a book, whatever it's subject is, can no longer be looked at as being "of no one else's business"....that relative (however far removed) signed-away any possibility of privacy WITH REGARDS TO THE BOOK'S SUBJECT MATTER.


besides, this is a public forum.   it's unrealistic for anyone to believe they can control the topic direction or, indeed, the tone of a discussion --- except, of course, for the all-powerful FAs! ;-)

ideally, the rules of polite discussion would be in effect (or, at least, a basic sense of respect for others).    but, in all honesty, it bothers me that i felt the need to apologize for acknowledgeing what i consider/ed
to be the high-handed tone katusha used in correcting an opinion that is not just mine, but is in general & common use.

aneeeeeeeway.....

i do want to emphasize that i never offer hollow apologies; therefore,  i meant every word of my apology --- however, it does bother me that i felt i needed to....i don't think anything i wrote was rude or disrespectful (i was simply retelling the widely known rumor about the origin of 'Elston').     nothing in my post actually warranted a reprimand, and yet i apologized to the one that came in unknown, borderline rude & when called on it, simply disappeared.    how convenient.    the whole thing is just galling.    



ah well....  


"i can vouch for the bloodline in my hounds.   yours, however, is anyone's guess...."
                                 -- Friedrich-Forrest graf von R.
                                        (in an angry letter to his son,
                                              Friedrich-Forrest II)
                         
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Tasha_R on August 11, 2005, 12:52:33 PM
Oh, dear... it must have been my mothering guilting you into it  ;).  Us mothers do have a tendency to do that.

Accept my apology?
Cheers!
Tasha
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: katusha on August 11, 2005, 01:04:33 PM
I don't really know why I am replying, maybe fury...
I don't need to prove who I am, I am myself, born in London,You can see me in the family tree under Anstey.

I don't understand the interest which seems to border on fanaticism but I will no longer participate.
Over and out.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Forum Admin on August 11, 2005, 01:18:49 PM
I don't understand "fury". I don't think anyone has done anything disrespectful or "obsessive". You asked that the facts be correct. Well, people were presenting the known facts. You, on the other hand, provided nothing to the disucssion in the way of fact, and then seem to be offended.

Perhaps you are upset that the extensive research by M. Ferrand uncovered the family secret that Felix Elston was an illegitimate child and not of noble birth? Frankly, today, I don't think a single person in this Forum would see this as a negative.

We had hoped that you might indeed have some information to share with everyone, much as AlexP has done about his Russian ancestors. Sadly, all you can do is seem rather petulant.

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 11, 2005, 04:44:22 PM


EXACTLY!  thank you FA.....and "petulant" seems very appropriate.   (it could also be applied to me, at various times... ;-)


i must confess, i'm rather baffled by this katusha person's reasoning....    i agree that she need not feel any need to prove herself.   however, she fails to acknowledge that we need not believe her.    and she mentions "fanaticism"....perhaps.   but, then, why was she here in the first place?   what brought her here, if it wasn't some sort of interest?    

katusha --
i'm not going to do this privately (mainly because i don't want to), but i'm not sure you're seeing our point (at least, it's my point, anyway):

when you arrived, we were discussing/re-telling an anecdote (?), story, whatever, about one of the rumours surrounding the person of Feliks Elston.     specifically, the humorous rumour re: the origin of his name.    it's a tale/story that has appeared many books, & cited by many people.     true or not --- who knows?    but you arrive, admonishing us (or was it just me?) for not having our "facts" straight.    i NEVER claimed it was fact.    besides that, you bring up things that no-one has ever heard of before --  and BELIEVE ME when i say, there are some EXTREMELY knowledgeable people here.    i, myself, am not one of them.    i've just read everything i've been able to get my hands on.    but they would, surely, have heard something about the events & "facts" you bring up....don't you think?    

i'm not saying you're a liar, nor am i doubting your accident of birth; what i am saying is this:  
in this forum, as in real, everyday Life,   no-one need believe what you say, simply because you say it.    and, in all honesty, i don't care who you are, or are not.      feel free to be anyone you wish.    just remember --- it's foolish to think that you'll ever (E V E R) get others to see your point of view by simply expecting them to see it.  

in any event, i wish you well.

oh yeah, one more thought:
lighten-up, lady[/b].   life is short & all these people are dead & buried.    they have moved-on....    if no-one knew for sure back then, i seriously doubt anyone will ever know.    and unless you have some sort of evidence to offer, what right do you have to be angry with anyone for not automatically believing you?     why  get so angry at all?    this is a public forum for discussion.  emphasis on "discussion".
polite conversation.  the respectful exchange of ideas & information.

----  btw, when i used to throw tantrums like yours, i was usually sent to my room. ----

"over and out" right back atcha, lady.


Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on August 11, 2005, 05:00:06 PM
dear FA --
i apologize for my part in allowing this thread to get waaaay off track (well....sorta off track.)    in an odd way, it's actually still on track.   i'd bet exchanges  about this very subject (the origins of "Elston" and, therefor, the origins of the person bearing the name) and much less polite than this one, took place st. petersburg and with much the same result.    ;)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on June 05, 2006, 09:44:23 AM
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/9185/felixyussoupovsr19192xu.jpg)

Prince Felix Yussupov, Sr., aboard the H.M.S. Marlborough, 1919.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: vnuchka on May 31, 2007, 02:41:55 PM
Hello Everyone, I am researching the Sumarokov-Elston and Yusupov family and am interested in the interest in them. I notice that people quote quite a rich list of source materials and I would be interested to make sure that my own bibliography is complete.

Any helpful hints woul be much appreciated.

Moya klichka is vnuchka...so that will keep you all guessing! Perhaps there's a mirage at the end of the rainbow....
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Svetabel on October 14, 2007, 03:37:15 AM
Not a photo but an interesting portrait of Felix-senior. He looks formidable.

(http://www.picatom.com/a/shmarovfelixsr-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/a/shmarovfelixsr-1.html)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on October 15, 2007, 12:08:47 AM
.

foto of the bee-keepers (& bee-masters) of the Ishmailovskoy Experimental Apiary. 
the prince Feliks Feliksovich Sr. Yusupov (front row, in military uniform & medals).
he was the chairman of the Society of the Acclimatization of Animals and Plants.
to the prince's right (our left) is the manager of the apiary, Grigoriy Alexandrovich Kozhevnikov.
Moscow, 1916.

(click on image for larger version)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/yusSr_beekeepers_moscow.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/Unfiled%20Photos/yusSr_beekeepers_moscow.jpg)


NOTE: i'd never heard the word before, but an apiary is "a place where bees are kept; a collection of beehives."
i learn something new every day!  ;-P

.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on July 22, 2008, 09:36:42 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/nicholas-2.jpg)
Felix Sr

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on July 22, 2008, 09:37:04 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/felixsr-3.jpg)
Felix Sr.

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on July 22, 2008, 09:37:30 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/felixnicholasII.jpg)
Felix Sr and Nicholas II
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Svetabel on August 22, 2008, 04:12:23 AM
Felix Senior and the Chief of his regiment, Empress Maria Fedorovna, in 1904.


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/1904.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 07, 2008, 07:36:05 AM
Family:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Youssoupov/lastscan1.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on September 07, 2008, 11:27:44 PM
Family:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Youssoupov/lastscan1.jpg)


Alexandre,

 thank you for posting those images. The second family picture I have seen before but the not first. Is there way to get a better image of it posted?

Thanks
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on September 07, 2008, 11:37:08 PM
I was able enlarge the first picture but trying to get a clear image. The writing is in french, correct? Is it from a french book?

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/1889fampic.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: PAVLOV on November 10, 2009, 09:06:54 AM
I love the military photographs. Does anyone know where they were taken ? I wonder what the building on the hill was, it looks very interesting. Could this have been Krasnoe Selo ? If so, the building could have been some sort of lookout post.

Also could someone tell me where Zenaida and Felix lived at the end of their lives ? I seem to remember reading that it was a Villa near Rome.
Does anyone have photographs or the name of the Villa ?

Thanks
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on June 08, 2010, 11:17:15 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/serov-yusupov.jpg)\
Felix Sr being painted by Serov
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashdean on June 08, 2010, 04:03:30 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/serov-yusupov.jpg)\
Felix Sr being painted by Serov
This the smaller of the 2 Serov paintings of Felix was the one Felix jr had in his London flat and thus was not lost in the revolution.Later the property of the famed cellist Rostopvitch it returned to Russia when his collection was bought enbloc by a obligarch and returned to Russia.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 09, 2010, 07:44:28 AM
i must say Felix Sr looks pretty handsome in this one

(http://i47.tinypic.com/96yo79.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on June 09, 2010, 12:39:33 PM
Indeed, Felix Sr was a very handsome man in his youth. Zenaida and Felix made a very handsome couple in their youth.

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/zenaida/youngzenaida/Capture14-1-1.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/yusfampic1.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 09, 2010, 12:51:31 PM
me like him *0*
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 11, 2010, 09:02:39 AM
Felix buying some thing

(http://i25.tinypic.com/16hqeqc.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on July 25, 2010, 01:08:58 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/Capture26-1.jpg)
From left to right: Felix, Felix Sr, unknown, Nicholas, unknown woman, and Princess Zenaida at their country estate Arkhangelskoye
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on September 20, 2010, 04:29:40 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/felixsrark001-1.jpg)
Felix Sr.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 04, 2010, 09:10:10 AM
Some great captures of Felix from a russian documentary

(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8061/dzfhszrtswrt.jpg) (http://img841.imageshack.us/i/dzfhszrtswrt.jpg/)

And a cute secuence of Zenaide and Felix from a well known photoshoot

(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7346/fdghdh.jpg) (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/fdghdh.jpg/)

(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/4392/eysertw.jpg) (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/eysertw.jpg/)
 

 
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Svetabel on October 04, 2010, 09:13:26 AM
Here I posted the same ,but in a bit better quality:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=10775.195 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=10775.195)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on April 13, 2011, 03:49:25 PM
Prince Felix Yusupov Sr. seated in the middle of the group 1890s (you can see a the portrait of Princess Zenaida by GD Elizabeth to the right)

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/ffyusupov1890s.jpg)

Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 07, 2012, 06:07:04 AM
Princess Zenaide and Pearls:

(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/0653-11.jpg)
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: THERRY on January 07, 2012, 09:53:09 AM
If I remember correctly she really loved pearls ! Beautiful photography 
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashdean on January 07, 2012, 10:11:17 AM
Princess Zenaide and Pearls:


Those are the famous Black pearls of Catherine the Great which were sold in the early 1920s for $300,000.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 07, 2012, 01:31:47 PM
Ashdea, were these pearls part of the Calvert & Sternback swindle ?
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on January 09, 2012, 10:04:53 AM
Beautiful photo Alexandre! Thank you for sharing such a rare find.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on January 09, 2012, 01:22:59 PM
Thank you to Katyusha on Foros Dinastias.

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/youssoupov/000pkpez-1.jpg)

Princess Zenaida is sitting next to Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna. In the front row I believe it's Grand Duke Paul, unknown and Grand Duke Serge. Standing in the back is Grand Duchess Elizabeth next to Prince Felix. 
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Svetabel on January 10, 2012, 03:03:38 AM
Thank you to Katyusha on Foros Dinastias.



Princess Zenaida is sitting next to Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna. In the front row I believe it's Grand Duke Paul, unknown and Grand Duke Serge. Standing in the back is Grand Duchess Elizabeth next to Prince Felix. 

Front row - left to right: GD Pavel, Prss Lyudmila Lobanova (lady-in-waiting of GDss Elizaveta), GD Sergei
Middle row - left to right: Zenaida, Duchess Marie of Edinburgh, Baronesse Anna Pillar von Pilkhau (Hofmeisterin of GDss Elizaveta)
Back row: Konstantin Balysniy (ADC of GD Sergei), Mikhail Stepanov (ADC of GD Sergei), Felix Soumarokov, GDss Elizaveta

This is July 1884 year, Ilinskoe.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Kalafrana on January 10, 2012, 04:41:57 AM
Interesting photograph. What is the occasion? The ladies are wearing what looks like some form of traditional costume and the gentlemen are not in their usual uniforms.

Ann
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: Svetabel on January 10, 2012, 05:00:38 AM
Interesting photograph. What is the occasion? The ladies are wearing what looks like some form of traditional costume and the gentlemen are not in their usual uniforms.

Ann

The occasion is that the GD, GDss and their round dressed up as Russian peasants. Just for fun. Duchess Marie said it was quite weird but anyway very interesting and funny.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashdean on January 10, 2012, 08:48:01 AM
Ashdea, were these pearls part of the Calvert & Sternback swindle ?
Are you talking about the swindlers to took Grand Duchess Xenia to the cleaners?
No they were completely different pearls inherited (with a second smaller strand) by Zenaida through her family from Potemkin.
Pierre Cartier was astonished when they were shown to him in the 1920s..The full story is on the Youssoupoff jewels thread.
Title: Re: Princess Zenaida and Count Felix - parents of Felix-jr, their family life
Post by: ashanti01 on February 25, 2016, 05:56:15 PM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8f/44/13/8f441337766f0e814cd83e56aec76a3d.jpg)
Prince Felix and Princess Zenaida in 1884. Her hair was cut after her near-fatal bout with typhus.