Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Annie on February 04, 2005, 05:48:10 PM

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #1
Post by: Annie on February 04, 2005, 05:48:10 PM
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You know, this shoots down the serial killer theory.  If Felix had thought his sister killed in 1920, then suddenly he thinks in 1927 she is alive, wouldn't he jump at the chance to see her alive, if they were as close as it has been reported???

Denise

It is strange to me that even Kurth and Lovell, the ultimate AA supporters, never used the serial killer or half sibling stuff. That's another reason I really wonder about its validity.

Oh and thank YOU for correcting me on those 2 authors of that book! I couldn't think of them!  :D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 04, 2005, 05:56:08 PM
On pg 173 of "Riddle Of Anna Anderson"

It states that Felix agreed to the 1927 meeting at the inn at Wasserburg, on the condition that if she turned out to be his sister, that he would not bear any responsibilites for her bills.  Also it is clear from the book that NO OTHER member of the family met her (this includes Gertrude, Valerina, Marie Juliana) until 1938.

I don't see anything wrong with Felix's motives here, would you want to be saddled with the bills of a relative who left home and you hadn't seen in 8 years, and shows up posing as an Imperial Highness.  I think Felix was quite just.  In fact the book states he was NOT interested in this affair at all, and it took them some time to persuade him to meet AA.

It was at that meeting he signed the declaration that AA was not his sister.

Felix states specifically that his sister did not have the foot deformities, her speech was different, while she looked similar from the front, from the side she did not.
She had no scars or birthmarks.

Again the next meeting did not take place uintil 1938
when the siblings met her, and the ONLY ONE who did state that she was their sister was Gertrude who verbally assaulted AA.  The other siblings stared at Gertrude, and said "This was crazy indeed you could tell the lady was not Fransziska.  The more her family protested, the louder Gertrude got.

No one, including Gertrude agreed that day to sign anything.  I am sorry I can't attribute anything to their motives except that they did not recognize this woman as their sister, nothing is mentioned at this meeting of financial issues or the responsibility for the bills.


Michael
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 04, 2005, 06:01:29 PM
That account of the meeting was taken directly from Leverkeuhn's notes, & Fallows notes.  Paul Leverkuehn was at the meeting in 1938 at the Police Station.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 06:05:42 PM
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That account of the meeting was taken directly from Leverkeuhn's notes, & Fallows notes.  Paul Leverkuehn was at the meeting in 1938 at the Police Station.


Yes, I read that in Peter's notes.  Who exactly was Paul Leverkuehn?  And who was Fallows?  Sorry, but it was a long time ago that I read the book in its entirety.  I just want to place these men as witnesses.

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 04, 2005, 06:08:44 PM
I don't recall any mention of parents, or stepparents, seeing AA or being contacted about her being FS. I had assumed they were dead. It's always just the siblings. The parents stuff, like the sibling birth order and parentage, keeps changing ??? Dead or alive???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 06:11:14 PM
I vote for dead....

(or would that be speculating??)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 04, 2005, 06:18:01 PM
Not really, it goes along with what we know so far. There was never any mention of the parents.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 06:25:31 PM
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Yes, I read that in Peter's notes.  Who exactly was Paul Leverkuehn?  And who was Fallows?  Sorry, but it was a long time ago that I read the book in its entirety.  I just want to place these men as witnesses.

Denise

OK, Edward Fallows was an acquaintence of Gleb's who was a corporate lawyer.  He took on AA as a client.  

Paul Leverkuehn was one of the most successful lawyers in Berlin, who took on her case at Fallows' instigation.  Fallows died six weeks later.

So both witnesses were legally representing AA, therefore I would say they have a bias...

Denise

(used the index of Kurth's book.)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 06:27:52 PM
I would like to know these two things:

1. Why was there no mention until recently of a serial killer having killed FS.

2. Why was there no mention until recently of Gertrude and FS having different mothers (did they not know this in 1994 when the DNA tests were done?).

I never heard of this until recently, and I would think this would have been mentioned in Peter Kurth's and James Lovell's books at the very least, and maybe some others too. Maybe I missed it, was it? I don't remember ever hearing anything like that until I read it here about a month or two ago....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 06:32:55 PM
Quest For Anastasia  by Klier and Mingay was published in 1995 and discusses the separate families on page 222.  It says that "her father married twice, and she was a child of the second marriage and close to her brother Felix."

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Dashkova on February 04, 2005, 06:33:53 PM
I was wondering why nobody has brought up yet another story dealing with FS's fate, the one that goes that she left the country to go "into service" in England.  A man who was dating her at the time saw her off and she supposedly gave him her address in England.

And she didn't return.

So the story goes.

(Though I am completely neutral about this entire topic. I do not believe that AA was ANR and don't really care who she really was, obviously a very clever sort)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 04, 2005, 06:45:38 PM
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I would like to know these two things:

1. Why was there no mention until recently of a serial killer having killed FS.

2. Why was there no mention until recently of Gertrude and FS having different mothers (did they not know this in 1994 when the DNA tests were done?).

I never heard of this until recently, and I would think this would have been mentioned in Peter Kurth's and James Lovell's books at the very least, and maybe some others too. Maybe I missed it, was it? I don't remember ever hearing anything like that until I read it here about a month or two ago....


1 second this.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 06:46:11 PM
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So both witnesses were legally representing AA, therefore I would say they have a bias...


Is that even legally allowed? How can your attorney be also a witness in your case?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 06:49:36 PM
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I was wondering why nobody has brought up yet another story dealing with FS's fate, the one that goes that she left the country to go "into service" in England.  A man who was dating her at the time saw her off and she supposedly gave him her address in England.

And she didn't return.

So the story goes.

(Though I am completely neutral about this entire topic. I do not believe that AA was ANR and don't really care who she really was, obviously a very clever sort)

Very true!  I think that Peter does mention it in his book, as it was brought up during the Hamburg trial.  I found it on page 307-308:

...A new witness, Bruno Grandsitzki, who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920, at a time when Anastasia was already confined at Dalldorf Asylum.  Grandsitzki remembered that Franziska and "some other girls" had been making ready to sail for England, Where they had found employment as domestic servants.  The ship was called the Premier, Gransitzki recalled, and Franziska had even given him her new address in London.  It was "Bedford Road"--"unfortunately I've forgotten the number.

"Things were exciting," wrote Dominique Aucleres, but alas, no informatiom could be obtained from the British Home Office about Polish immigrants to England.  In London, there were any number of "Bedford" thoroughfares,from streets to roads, with lanes, mews, gardens, terraces, places and walks between.  And of six steamers named Premier operating out of Danzig in 1920, three had never carried any Franziska Schanzkowskaas a passenger; one was nowhere to be found; one was "too small to cross the ocean;" and one "made no reply."


So it looks like that one was impossible to follow up, or was a dead end.  But if Franziska was really in London, wouldn't she have come forward if she heard her name in the news?  With some other woman being connected to it?  Especially if there were members of her family (Gertrude) who was thinking AA might be her sister?

Or was this not as well publicized as I think it was?

Denise
 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 06:51:28 PM
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Is that even legally allowed? How can your attorney be also a witness in your case?


He witnessed the meeting, but was dead before the trial--6 weeks after he introduced Leverkuehn to AA.

Fallows was an American and couldn't practice in Germany.  That is why he had Paul Leverkuehn take the case when it went to civil trial in Germany.

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 06:51:34 PM
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I was wondering why nobody has brought up yet another story dealing with FS's fate, the one that goes that she left the country to go "into service" in England.  A man who was dating her at the time saw her off and she supposedly gave him her address in England.

And she didn't return.

So the story goes.


Yeah, that's also very strange. I never heard this one either. Where did this tale come from and when? You would think this one would be relatively easy to check.

Quote
Quest For Anastasia  by Klier and Mingay was published in 1995 and discusses the separate families on page 222.  It says that "her father married twice, and she was a child of the second marriage and close to her brother Felix."


So, in other words, before 1995 no one knew this fact? Otherwise why would they have used Carl Maucher for their DNA tests? Unless Gertrude was also the sister of the second marriage. I would assume that they would have interviewed CM to establish his relationship to FS. Very strange. Is there a source mentioned in K & M for this familial information?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 06:53:25 PM
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I was wondering why nobody has brought up yet another story dealing with FS's fate, the one that goes that she left the country to go "into service" in England.  A man who was dating her at the time saw her off and she supposedly gave him her address in England.

And she didn't return.

So the story goes.


Where did he see her off from? Was it from Pomerania, or from Berlin? Is it possible that she never made it to England and ended up in Berlin instead?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 06:53:32 PM
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 Is there a source mentioned in K & M for this familial information?


Conveniently for the author, there are no source notes.  Just a bibliography at the end.....

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 06:54:13 PM
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Where did he see her off from? Was it from Pomerania, or from Berlin? Is it possible that she never made it to England and ended up in Berlin instead?


see my above quote from "Riddle of AA."  It has all that info....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 06:57:30 PM
Mentioned until just recently?

I've known it for a long long time, even before the book I quoted was purchased.  The book I quoted is: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF A MURDER by Wilson and Pitman  pps. 243-4 was published in 1969.

Since Georg Karl Grossmann was a serial killer, such cases are often mentioned in books,  it would  have been since the 1920s.  

It is believed he killed more than fifty people, most of them women.  

When he was found there was a partial body trussed up and cut up on his kitchen table in Aug. of 1921....

Gruesome stuff.  Since that trial, it's "gross"  started as slang started at that time meaning terrible.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 06:59:00 PM
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Conveniently for the author, there are no source notes.  Just a bibliography at the end.....



In that case, we really can't take it too seriously, unless we know where this info came from. It could be a figment of the author's imagination for all we know...

Quote

He witnessed the meeting, but was dead before the trial--6 weeks after he introduced Leverkuehn to AA.
Fallows was an American and couldn't practice in Germany.  That is why he had Paul Leverkuehn take the case when it went to civil trial in Germany.


But it still sounds like he would have probably been biased in his testimony...

Quote

see my above quote from "Riddle of AA."  It has all that info....


Oh, ok I'm sorry, I missed it...

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 07:00:51 PM
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Mentioned until just recently?

I've known it for a long long time, even before the book I quoted was purchased.  The book I quoted is: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF A MURDER by Wilson and Pitman  pps. 243-4 was published in 1969.

Since Georg Karl Grossmann was a serial killer, such cases are often mentioned in books and probably have been since the 1920s.  

It is believed he killed more than fifty people, most of them women.  

One will have to check, but when he was found there was a partial body trussed up and cut up on his kitchen table in Aug. of 1921....

Gruesome stuff.  Or since that trial, it's "gross" [slang started at that time meaning terrible].

AGRBear


How accurate a source is this book, Bear?  Is it a scholarly book, or "pulp fiction?"
(no insult to you meant here, I know you are VERY well read.)  I only ask because I am wondering why this hasn't been picked up anywhere else.  I haven't read it in Peter Kurth's book, and as thorough as he is I would think he would have brought that up if he thought it would strengthen Anna Anderson claim to be Anastasia...

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 07:00:55 PM
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I've known it for a long long time, even before the book I quoted was purchased.  The book I quoted is: ENCYCLOPEDIA OF A MURDER by Wilson and Pitman  pps. 243-4 was published in 1969.

AGRBear


Yes, I know that you have known this for a long time, Bear, but I never heard this in connection to this case until recently. In other words, it didn't seem to be mentioned in any AA/AN related books...

Also, do the authors give any sources as to where they got this info, about the name in the diary? What was that exact spelling of it? So far we have two different ones: "Sasnowski" and "Czenkowski" or something like that. neither one sounds very convincing to me, if this is the only evidence they have of FS being murdered... What is the spelling they give in the book? Thanks.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 07:06:40 PM
No, it's not pulp, it's just like it says, and Encylopedia.  It's just names of murderers from "a" to "z".  Gives names, dates, why they are listed, etc. etc..

Please, you don't need to think I'll be offended by such a question.   It's a good question.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 07:08:06 PM
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...A new witness, Bruno Grandsitzki, who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920, at a time when Anastasia was already confined at Dalldorf Asylum.  Grandsitzki remembered that Franziska and "some other girls" had been making ready to sail for England, Where they had found employment as domestic servants.  The ship was called the Premier, Gransitzki recalled, and Franziska had even given him her new address in London.  It was "Bedford Road"--"unfortunately I've forgotten the number.

"Things were exciting," wrote Dominique Aucleres, but alas, no informatiom could be obtained from the British Home Office about Polish immigrants to England.  In London, there were any number of "Bedford" thoroughfares,from streets to roads, with lanes, mews, gardens, terraces, places and walks between.  And of six steamers named Premier operating out of Danzig in 1920, three had never carried any Franziska Schanzkowskaas a passenger; one was nowhere to be found; one was "too small to cross the ocean;" and one "made no reply."


It sounds like Franziska never made it to England, even if the story was true. But obviously this can't verified, so we can't really accept it as any evidence. The guy could have been lying.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 07:08:34 PM
Sorry Bear, forgot about that big furry hide of yours!   ;)

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 04, 2005, 07:13:36 PM
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It sounds like Franziska never made it to England, even if the story was true. But obviously this can't verified, so we can't really accept it as any evidence. The guy could have been lying.


No, she didn't, and yes, he could have been. He also could have been mistaken in his time frame. They seemed desperate to have a witness who saw FS after AA was pulled from the canal, but this belongs in 'grabbing at straws.'

Also, the part about that witness being a corporate lawyer, and Gleb's friend, very suspicious. I wonder if Gleb's involvement was more than just memories. It sure seems her case and her claim really took off after she hooked up with him. I can't believe that didn't mean something. Of course we'll never know.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 07:17:12 PM
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Also, the part about that witness being a corporate lawyer, and Gleb's friend, very suspicious. I wonder if Gleb's involvement was more than just memories. It sure seems her case and her claim really took off after she hooked up with him. I can't believe that didn't mean something. Of course we'll never know.

I'm not sure.  The book said casual acquaintance, and this was an American lawyer.  And it seems that the German attorney Paul Leverkuehn had read the case file and was eager to take the case from Fallows, so I am not sure if Paul was "in Gleb's pocket" or not.  As a very successful young attorney, he may have wanted the publicity the case gave him.  

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 07:21:16 PM
Hmmmm, as many times as I've read this lately,  I'm just, now, reading it carefully.

I'll write it out for you:

"It is of interest that Grossmann was indirectly involved in the family's 'Anastasia' case-- the Grand Duchess Anastasia who was believed by any to be the last surviving members of the Tsar's family.  At one point it was announced that "Anastasia' was really an impostor named Franziska Schamzkovski, a Polish girl from Buetow in Pomerania.  Franziska's family were told that their daughter had been murdered by Grossmann on 13 Aug 1920; an entry in his dairy on that date bore the name 'Sasnovski'.  Anastasia's enemies insisted that this was not true, that Franziska and Anastasia were the same person."

As for the name,  I've explained to Annie and others, that certain names are spelled differently when you hear the name out loud.  This is a Polish name.  Grossman was German.  This is how he would have heard it and why he would have written in down as "Sasnovski".  If you have difficulty believing this, please, go to a large genealogy site on Poland. [I gave one such sight a few pages ago.]  Go to search, write in Schanskowska or Schanskowski, search by what they call Soundex  Equivalent  and you'll see a long list of names, one of which is Sasnovski.  Even though some of you might find the two names are not alike,  they do sound the same.

So let me explain why I had to write this.  Did you notice this line:  "...an entry in his dairy on that date".  So there was more to it then just the name.  It was the on or about this date FS vanished.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 07:27:54 PM
This is what I found online about Grossman.  Sounds like a pleasant fellow at a dinner party...


Georg Karl Grossmann: Another post-WWI-German degenerate that made a living selling human flesh. Georg, a horrifying individual, was acquainted with every kind of perversion, even bestiality. A former butcher, after nights of heavy drinking, he would bring prostitutes home, have sex with them, and hack them into pieces. The next day he would peddle their flesh as beef or pork. He was arrested in August, 1921, when his landlord summoned the police to his door following a loud altercation. Inside his pad they found a freshly butchered lass ready to be chopped up. They also found evidence of at least three other divvied up girls. The mad butcher laughed when he was given the death sentence and proceeded to hang himself in jail.


It says here his MO was prostitutes.  Now, what kind of lifestyle are we to assume FS was living if she actually met her end this way?  She was lodging with Wingenders, which hardly seems like a place to live while being a prostitute.  Not as easy access to the source of income, as it were.   Despite the soundex equivalent on names (I do genealogy so have no problem with it) I do think it might be someone else with a similar name, not FS who was killed....

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 07:37:09 PM
I think "Sasnovski" may be a bit of a stretch, considering that there was no first name given in his diary. But I don't know much about names, so maybe I will allow it. But how did Grossman know her last name? Why for example would he know her last name as opposed to her first name?
And as Denise also pointed out, his MO was prostitutes, this was the way he was able to get these women alone in an isolated place so that he could kill them without any witnesses. I never heard that FS may have been a prostitute. All this is a little too shady and vague. I'm sorry, I don't buy it without any additional evidence - it's just not convincing at all.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 07:46:27 PM
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I think "Sasnovski" may be a bit of a stretch, considering that there was no first name given in his diary. But I don't know much about names, so maybe I will allow it. But how did Grossman know her last name? Why for example would he know her last name as opposed to her first name?
 


THis is a great question.  Why would he bother to NAME the prostitutes in a diary?  But then again, the man was a psychopath, and logical, rational motivations really can't be applied to him.  But, if he is going out looking for women to murder and then butcher as meat, why get it into the personal information?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 07:52:06 PM
Says here he had served three terms of hard labour for offences against children, one of which he killed.

So, all his victims were not prositutes.

And, another fact, in Berlin, at this time, if you're luck was down, which nearly everyone was because German money was useless, there were many females  who had nothing left but her body to sell.  And, since Grossmann was making money off of his victim's meat, then he had the money and, maybe, FS had the need for the money to make her trip to England....  She wasn't working at the factory any longer....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 07:55:32 PM
Quote

THis is a great question.  Why would he bother to NAME the prostitutes in a diary?  But then again, the man was a psychopath, and logical, rational motivations really can't be applied to him.  But, if he is going out looking for women to murder and then butcher as meat, why get it into the personal information?

From everything I have read written by pro filers, serial killers tend to de-personalize their victims. They never ask them their names and do not want to know anything about them as individuals. They view them as an object. This is why serial killers never kill anyone they know personally... So this struck me as being somewhat strange, that Grossman actually knew not her first name, but her last name, and not only did he know it, he wrote it in his diary! First, why would she had told him her last name? Did he know her previously to this? How would they have met? Was she a prostitute?

Bear, I suppose there is nothing else in your book about Grossman's diary entry? Like what was the context of the entry where he wrote that name "Sasnovski"? Was it just like "Dear Diary, today I killed a woman named Sasnowski", or was there something different? It doesn't really make sense...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 08:13:23 PM
Every criminal is an individual and so each case has it's own individuality.  One can clump certain individuals into groups.  Germans  loved to have some kind of order.  So if it's proven that a  certain group does it one way, then Grossmann's group would be the ones who like to keep something to remember his victims.  I suppose some collected panties, and, he collected names in his diary. Anyway, I suspect Grossmann had his reasons, and, maybe, the trial records do have this information.  I don't know.

Nor do I know how smart Grossmann was or how much schooling he had.  Spelling may not have been high on his list as accomplishments.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 08:13:41 PM
One more thing. Did the book say the name was "Sasnovski" or "Sasnovska"? If the former, then this probably means that Grossman was talking about a man. FS would have given him the feminine version of her last name "Schankowska" not the masculine  "Schankowski", so he would have heard and transcribed it that way, with an "a" at the end... It is possible that Grossman was talking about a man, not a woman? We can't know because it doesn't sound like he gave a first name. Were any of the children he murdered male, Bear? Maybe it was another child, or maybe it was a man. We just don't have enough information - by far - to accept this serial killer theory.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 08:18:33 PM
Quote
One more thing. Did the book say the name was "Sasnovski" or "Sasnovska"? If the former, then this probably means that Grossman was talking about a man. FS would have given him the feminine version of her last name "Schankowska" not the masculine  "Schankowski", so he would have heard and transcribed it that way, with an "a" at the end... It is possible that Grossman was talking about a man, not a woman? We can't know because it deosn't sound like he gave a first name. Were any of the children he murdered male, Bear? Maybe it was another child, or maybe it was a man. We just don't have enough information - by far - to accept this serial killer theory.


It's possible.  However, most Germans wouldn't use the feminine version.  In this time frame, most Germans thought all Polish names ended in "ski".  She could have told him "ska", I don't know.  And, why wouldn't she have told him her name.  She had no idea she was going to be his next victim.

AGRBear

PS "Sasnonski"  and "Franziska Schamzkovski" were the two names given in this book.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 08:22:06 PM
Quote
Every criminal is an individual and so each case has it's own individuality.  
It is true that each criminal is an individual, but this is a very specific type of a criminal. More often than not, specific types of killers have astonishingly similar MO and thinking patterns (hence profilers can predict almost exactly what they would be  like). This is especially the case with serial killers. If you get the chance, read some books written by Helen Morrison or John Douglas, profilers. You would be amazed at how similar all serial killers are psychologically! You have to remember that these people are psychopaths which means that they have a serious mental disorder, and just like with any other disorder there is a set of symptoms, in this case psychological and behavioral symptoms that they exhibit, and these symptoms tend to be the same. But enough of that. IMO, even if this weren't the case there is still not enough evidence to accept this serial killer theory.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 08:24:50 PM
Quote
It is true that each criminal is an individual, but this is a very specific type of a criminal. More often than not, specific types of killers have astonishingly similar MO and thinking patterns (hence profilers can predict almost exactly what they would be  like). This is especially the case with serial killers. If you get the chance, read some books written by Helen Morrison or John Douglas, profilers. You would be amazed at how similar all serial killers are psychologically! You have to remember that these people are psychopaths which means that they have a serious mental disorder, and just like with any other disorder there is a set of symptoms, in this case psychological and behavioral symptoms that they exhibit, and these symptoms tend to be the same. But enough of that. IMO, even if this weren't the case there is still not enough evidence to accept this serial killer theory.


Helen, this is one field I don't need farther education  ;D.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 08:25:18 PM
Quote

It's possible.  However, most Germans wouldn't use the feminine version.  In this time frame, most Germans thought all Polish names ended in "ski".  She could have told him "ska", I don't know.  
But at the same token, most Germans would then not know that "-ski" is the same last name as "-ska", only masculine. They would think they are just different names. So he would have probably transcribed it the way he heard it from her "-ska", which sounds significantly different than "-ski". Taking this into consideration too, we are stretching it more and more...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 08:27:52 PM
No.

Even if she said "ska", he wouldn't have paid any attention.  He believed she was Polish and so he wrote "ski".  Even the book I'm taking this from didn't give her "ska" but the "ski".

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 08:32:43 PM
"Franziska Schamzkovski" was how it was written in this book.

And, the book or data Penny found is Schanskowska is spelled without the "S" and starts with a "C"....  I forget.  I'll have to go back and look.

AGRBear

PS  Found it.  Penny spelled it:  "Czenkowski"
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 08:33:47 PM
Quote
 Even the book I'm taking this from didn't give her "ska" but the "ski".

If we at least had the context of his diary entry, but obviously we don't so we can't really know anything just from that.
In any case, as I said a couple of times already, regardless of all this, there is just not enough evidence to convince me that this serial killer theory is real. It's a possibility, but we just don't have enough information to accept it. Maybe it's just me, but what we have is way too speculative and ambiguous to accept as fact.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 04, 2005, 08:41:02 PM
The evidence that Grossmann's victim  was murdered on 13 Aug 1921 about the same time as FS disapeared-- never to be seen or heard from again  [if she was killed and not AA] --doesn't place any weight toward a "maybe" or "possibility" or is that on the side of "improbable"?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 04, 2005, 08:43:44 PM
Quote
The evidence that Grossmann's victim  was murdered on 13 Aug 1921 about the same time as FS disapeared-- never to be seen or heard from again  [if she was killed and not AA] --doesn't place any weight toward a "maybe" or "possibility" or is that on the side of "improbable"?

AGRBear


I already said it was a "possibility". Almost anything is possible. But in this case, we need more evidence to accept it as probable.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 04, 2005, 09:05:59 PM
We certainly do need more.  I tried a web search to see if I could find anything more, but my previous post is pretty much all the online info available.  There needs to be a way to check police records (and after 2 wars and communist rule it is probably pretty darn impossible at this point!)

IF this was a certainty, SOMEONE would certainly have mentioned it, somewhere!  But no one in any published AA reference has touched on this.  Why?

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 04, 2005, 11:45:53 PM
Leverkeuhn along with Kurt Vermehren was AA's attorney from 1938 to 1962

Edward Fallows was AA's attorney from 1928 to 1940
(He was not allowed to  practice law in Germany)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 05, 2005, 12:03:46 AM
Also about the last name.  FS according to her brother spoke good German, and little polish.

Sometimes going between the different dialects in Germany & eastern Europe names the pronunciation could be different, even the spellings, and I remember this from my high school German teacher who spoke German well, but with a distinct Czech dialect.
My impression was that FS was termed as a Polish peasant factory worker masquerading as the Tsar's daughter.  My point is if any one goes back to the beginning when she was pulled from the canal and the
affidavits given by the nurses and staff at Dalldorf.  They claim that this women is dignified, well bread, clean, etc.  That she spoke German, well, and understood and spoke Russian.  All I am trying to state whether it is germane to the debate or not, is that these are facts that cannot be ignored.  This woman was pulled from the canal on 17 Feb. 1920.

FS's family were told by the police she was murdered by Grossman on 13 Aug. 1920.  AA was in the asylum at that point, so how did the identity of the murder victim come to light??  The diary correct. I would love to read the notes on this case

Does anyone at all know the reason why they claim Grossman chose FS?   Did her parents report her as missing, who did report her as missing or did the police contact FS's family?   Was her family satisfied with what they had been told by the police in order to close the case?

It seems to me we only know a portion of this case, not the entire background.  Instead of assuming facts about this family lets see what can be brought up on them.

Annie anything I have seen has not mentioned her FS's parents just the siblings.  Kurths book doesn't go into that much detail.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Alice on February 05, 2005, 04:19:01 AM
Quote
The rest are dead and the dead tell no tales.


Actually Annie, "Dead Men Do Tell Tales" is the name of Dr. William Maples' book!

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

Quote
Was it just like "Dear Diary, today I killed a woman named Sasnowski", or was there something different? It doesn't really make sense...


Thanks for the laugh, Helen!  :D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 05, 2005, 05:07:17 AM
Penny, this is absolutely fascinating, regardless of who she does turn out to be, even if it is FS, I would not be disappointed.

I have found that in history & genealogy, sometimes the result you get from your research, isn't necessarily the one you hoped for, but 3/4 of the excitement or interest is doing the research to get to a solution.

Many people of that day felt that getting your name in the newspaper was an invasion of privacy, and the only time it should appear is birth, or marriage, or death.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 05, 2005, 07:10:26 AM
Quote
"Franziska Schamzkovski" was how it was written in this book.

And, the book or data Penny found is Schanskowska is spelled without the "S" and starts with a "C"....  I forget.  I'll have to go back and look.

AGRBear

PS  Found it.  Penny spelled it:  "Czenkowski"


The first name was never mentioned, not even in Penny's post. And that name is still a bit of a stretch. Also you mention her being murdered in Aug. 1921, wasn't she pulled from the canal in early 1920 ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 05, 2005, 07:20:39 AM
Quote


Karl Maucher's mother or grandmother (I forget which, but I think grandmother).


Surely since this same branch of the family had to have been contacted for DNA testing, someone would have told the scientists this ??? Or they were misinformed, or lying to someone one of these times ???

Hey, wouldn't his GRANDMOTHER be Gertrude herself? Still alive? ???


Quote
And -- believe it or not, both these parties' research and ours has shown that FS' mother was alive in 1927/28, when the family was approached by the newspaper investigator.  She was not impressed by the story, and was rather scandalized that this man from a newspaper (remember the times, too) was suggesting that her daughter could be involved in this activity.


With all the different parent stories floating around, I wonder about this being her 'real' mother, but if it was, I can actually believe someone would rather think her dead than involved in a scandal. My elderly relatives were like that, afraid of having the family embarrassed, even by silly things. But if it is true, it's very sad!


Quote
 He told his family in later years that all the meeting did for him was to confirm that his sister "was sausages long ago."


Now this leads me to believe he DID know she was the real Franziska. Who would be so cold as to joke about 'sausages' if there was a real chance his real sister had been not only killed, but sold for meat? Since he seemed able to joke about it makes me feel he was comfortable with what he said, knowing secretly it wasn't true ;)


Quote
Jimmy Lovell's book is another issue.  He took a fair amount of dramatic license with it, and told Greg personally that some parts were made up to better convey the essence of things that AA said to him -- or to conflate several conversations into one.  The oft-referred-to King Kong "scene" never happened.  Read this book, certainly, because there's stuff in it -- but recognize drama when you see it, and read it with care.


I agree, and have posted this before. Though Kurth is just as diehard a believer, his book was more fair and less romanticized. In Lovell's book, it's scary how he calls her "Anastasia" and never even considers the possibility she may not be :-/
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 05, 2005, 07:22:14 AM
Quote

The first name was never mentioned, not even in Penny's post. And that name is still a bit of a stretch. Also you mention her being murdered in Aug. 1921, wasn't she pulled from the canal in early 1920 ???


Well, if FS was murdered in Aug of 21, she couldn't have been AA.  AA was pulled from the canal in 1920, we know that.  But if FS the following year, then they definately were TWO separate people.  Again, I would need some additional details from the polices investigation to close the case in MY mind.  

And Penny, thanks for that detailed explanation of the Schanzkowski family dynamics.  Interesting reading....

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 05, 2005, 07:38:57 AM
Hey, even if that date was meant to be 1920, shouldn't it have been 1919 she vanished since she appeared in early 1920 ??? And if this "Savsnovski' person was killed in Aug. 1920, it wasn't AA because she was in the asylum, but that doesn't mean she wasn't FS, only that FS was not murdered. And didn't Felix get his birthday card only a month before FS vanished?

This isn't adding up either :-/ The serial killer stuff seems to not tie in with the other stuff, one more reason to think it most likely wasn't her.

Oh, and Alice, LOL! Maybe Dr. Maples can help us out here!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Alice on February 05, 2005, 08:31:06 AM
We don't know for certain that FS was murdered in 1921 (or, murdered at all). There was no body found. As I understand, Grossmann was not charged with her murder (please, correct me if I am mistaken).

No body. No charges. And a woman (AA) who could have been FS.

I don't believe FS was murdered, but this is a belief, and whether or not this belief is accurate remains to be seen . . .

Please Penny, hurry up with the book already!  :D (JK!)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 09:31:25 AM
Quote
... Maybe Dr. Maples can help us out here!

Unfortunately Dr Maples is now deceased too... But there are his books.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 09:45:08 AM
Penny, thanks for your post.

Quote

Probably because the FS story wasn't that big a part of the trial.  


Why didn't they try to use this info to disprove the notion that AA was FS during the trial, if they were sure that FS was indeed killed by Grossman? Or did they not yet think that she was FS at the time of the trial?


Quote

 It was this exact sentence -- the one about the two different Schanzkowsky mothers -- that piqued our interest.  We did write to Klier and Mingay -- and I think Greg ended up speaking to Helen Mingay on the telephone.  They totally missed the mtDNA implications of Franziska and Gertrude having two different mothers, but Helen kindly told us that they had gathered this piece of information from the two members of the Schanzkowsky family that they managed to track down -- Felix's daughter and either Karl Maucher's mother or grandmother (I forget which, but I think grandmother).


This is interesting. Was the grandmother they spoke to Gertrude, or was it the other grandmother? Did the authors keep their notes and have you seen them? Did you have copies of the notes you saw at the studios in 2000 by any chance?

Quote
"was sausages long ago."


I can't believe Felix actually said that!  :P  :P

Quote

The oft-referred-to King Kong "scene" never happened.  


I'm sorry, can someone fill me in about the "King Kong scene"? I never read Lovell's book, and never heard of this. It sounds rather odd  ???  Lovell certainly did not do a solid to others involved in the AA case by embellishing things in his book!  ::)



Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 05, 2005, 10:00:58 AM
Just an FYI on the DATES that are being written about.

1.  AA pulled from the canal on 17 Feb. 1920

2. ACCORDING TO GROSSMAN'S DIARY  FS was murdered
on 13 Aug 1920  (per Bear's post from Grossman's book)

3. Grossman was NOT arrested for murder until Aug. of 1921.

4. AA was still in asylum/sanitarioum at Dalldorf in Aug. of 1920.

5.  News of the AA case did not start getting out until
1922.  When Clara Peuthert contacted people & spread the rumors.

So AA was in asylum for a couple of years before this really got started.  Again the dates for the Grossman murder comes from Bears posting.  The date for AA being pulled from the canal is in Kurths book.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 10:08:16 AM
Quote
2. ACCORDING TO GROSSMAN'S DIARY  FS was murdered
on 13 Aug 1920  (per Bear's post from Grossman's book)


Correction: A person named "Sasnovski" was murdered by Grossman on 13 Aug 1920 according to his diary entry. Lets not jump to conclusions or speculate too much  ;)

I still would like to know exactly what the diary entry says about this "Sasnovski", it must at least indicate the gender of "Sasnovski".  Why doesn't this book tell us anything more?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 05, 2005, 10:15:40 AM
The book is Encyclopedia of Murder and lists hundreds of killers.  Each one recieved about a page, accept of course, Jack the Ripper.  There or 500 and some pages.

AGRBear

PS Thanks Michael G., people were getting dates confused....

PSS  I do believe the last thing Felix received from her was a birthday card... I've forgotten the date, but it was given on one of these threads...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 05, 2005, 10:47:19 AM
Sorry was using FS as a reference point.  Meaning that the authorities believed it was FS, not that it was FS, should have made that clear.

I was just getting confused with the mixing up of the dates & years, and that we all needed to be clear on the time frame.

IF  FS's mother was alive at the time Felix went to see AA, that is very interesting.  I agree that the DNA evidence is compelling, but why was her own Mother not interested in possibly seeing whether or not this person was or was not her daughter?  Felix goes and finds some if only slight resemblence to his sister, and signs an affadavit that say she was definitely NOT his sister.     This family must have been convinced at that time (with the exception of Gertrude in 1938) that FS was indeed dead.  I wish there was more available of Grossmans murder case, or the police file that did survive the war.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 05, 2005, 10:59:38 AM
I still am convinced the family DID know it was her but denied it to save trouble for them all. And if he really thought she was dead and sold for meat he'd never have made that 'sausages' comment, he had to know she was still alive so it was just a joke.

Also, once and for all, EXACTLY what did this diary say? Am I correct to assume that there was no first name or gender mentioned?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 05, 2005, 11:49:21 AM
Grossmann's apartment / flat was near the Silesian railway terminus.  Would she have used this particular railway to visit any of her siblings?

Quote

...[in part]...

Interestingly, Felix's birthday was 17 February -- yet another of those coincidences with which this story is riddled.  Let the speculation begin! 8)...


17 Feb 1920..... Hmmmmmmmm.   ::)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 05, 2005, 12:19:10 PM
Quote

Franziska was not unknown to the mental-health community in Berlin.  She was declared insane on 19 September 1916, and spent time in and out of the asylums at Berlin-Schoeneberg and Neu-Ruppin before disappearing in early 1920.

On the Grossmann affair -- I am not entirely convinced that FS was a victim of his.  She went missing in February 1920, yet "Saznovski" wasn't murdered until August.  Where was she for six months?  Did she, in fact, travel to London for work, then for some reason come back to Berlin six months later only to meet her fate at Grossmann's hands?  I don't know -- it seems like terrible luck, but if it wasn't for bad luck, Franziska wouldn't have had any luck at all.  :P  

There was also a rumor floated in the 1960s that Franziska had gone totally insane and her family quietly assigned her to an asylum in Herrenprotsch, and that they always knew where she was.  Insanity was not something families liked to acknowledge back then, I think, and mental illness was something to be tucked away quietly -- a la Prince John and Tatiana Mountbatten -- even though the sick family member  was still loved and cared for.  This, again, is a rumor we need to run down, but it could explain Felix's flippant dismissal of Franziska as "sausages."  

As Peter Kurth says, there is not a single detail of this Franziska Schanzkowska story that is not in dispute...

Penny, I know that mental health treatment was different at the turn of the century, but is there any record of what exactly FS diagnosis was?  Schizophrenia, fugue states, bipolar, etc?  Insane is such a general word.  

I only ask because it seems that there are a lot of differing views floating around about FS as a person.  A person with fugue states or Schizophrenia could appear to be perfectly normal at times, and then be over the top three days later.  

If (big IF) she was a victim of Grossman, his MO of prostitutes might fit the circumstances.  If she had fallen on hard times due to her mental imbalance, it might be explained.

I still don't think the times jive well enough, though, for the serial killer theory....

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 05, 2005, 12:27:07 PM
But the 'insane' storyline only plays right into the AA case, since this woman surely suffered from mental problems all her life. So let's see, we have a woman who looks just like FS, has her family's DNA, and also has mental problems, who disappeared about the same time AA appeared. If it was a snake it would bite us. It's going to take quite a bit to convince me AA was anyone but FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 05, 2005, 12:36:53 PM
Quote
But the 'insane' storyline only plays right into the AA case, since this woman surely suffered from mental problems all her life. So let's see, we have a woman who looks just like FS, has her family's DNA, and also has mental problems, who disappeared about the same time AA appeared. If it was a snake it would bite us. It's going to take quite a bit to convince me AA was anyone but FS.


Oh I agree Annie (look, it happened again!  ::)).  I wonder about her diagnosis in part because
of AA.  She was certainly unstable.  But there are those who insist that AA was not mentally ill, but I don't buy it, especially considering her living quarters later in life...


Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 12:41:52 PM
Quote

...what exactly FS diagnosis was?  Schizophrenia, fugue states, bipolar, etc?  I only ask because it seems that there are a lot of differing views floating around about FS as a person.  A person with fugue states or Schizophrenia could appear to be perfectly normal at times, and then be over the top three days later.  


Maybe FS had a "multiple personality disorder"? That would fit, since she could have acted like two or more completely different people either within a short period of time or for long stretches of time. AA obviously had a mental illness - she was at the very least delusional, judging by the fact that she thought she was Grand Duchess Anastasia - which  I am pretty sure she was herself convinced of - she did not appear to have been playing a "role".
Penny, you said that you saw FS's medical charts, were there any specific diagnosis of her mental condition?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 12:50:22 PM
Quote

AA...was certainly unstable.  But there are those who insist that AA was not mentally ill, but I don't buy it, especially considering her living quarters later in life...

 Denise, it is beyond that. Since we know that AA was not Anastasia, we either have to believe that she consciously pretended to be AN, which for some reason I doubt, or that she was delusional and actually believed she was AN. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think she was playing a role, she really did take on AN's identity. Which means that as early as 1920, she was already seriously mentally ill - it didn't happen later in life - it was already there back then. It only got worse as she got older (which is what normally happens). The fact that she jumped off that bridge supports this theory too...

So basically the two choices are: AA was an impostor and an "actress" or AA was a mentally ill delusional woman who believed she was Anastasia. These are the two only options. I tend to believe the latter...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 05, 2005, 12:52:24 PM
I agree with what all of you are saying here.  There are some issues which I have.  

Penny is right, to have a relative be put into an asylum in those days was a shame upon the family.  I had it happen to a great great uncle who was not himself after an accident.  In later years his sisters would insist that he did not die in an asylum, but his death certificate shows that he did.

Second, don't shove the time frame's here off to coincidence.  They are very important in ANY historical or genealogical research project.  As it helps you define who and what you are looking for.  

Third, I would like to take another moment to discuss the family and their acceptance of the serial killer, remember you are dealing with a time when having an emotionally or mentally unstable relative was a shame upon the family.  Isn't it easier for them to accept her as dead, then have to deal with the shame of knowing she is alive and in an asylum.  I wonder what compelling evidence the police had other than Grossman's diary, was there ever a body found, or anything else of FS's.

While I admit that her disapperance and the reporting of it time well with the appearance of Fraulein Unbekannent, I still think that we need more answers to these questions, before saying she is definitely FS.

This is just my opinion of course.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 05, 2005, 12:57:31 PM
Helen, is it at all possible, that ASSUMING for the sake of argument that AA is FS that she mentally became the daughter of the Tsar, assumed a dignified bearing, etc.
The nurses and Dr's would be easy to draw into and fool at first, but as her audience & acclaim grew wider, she had to put on more of a show, but I don't understand then, this shift to total eccentricity that became part of her persona while she lived in America and of course her latter years in Bavaria.

These are just thoughts.  I am just full of curiousity regarding this case.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 05, 2005, 12:57:58 PM
Quote

Maybe FS had a "multiple personality disorder"? That would fit, since she could have acted like two or more completely different people either within a short period of time or for long stretches of time. AA obviously had a mental illness - she was at the very least delusional, judging by the fact that she thought she was Grand Duchess Anastasia - which  I am pretty sure she was herself convinced of - she did not appear to have been playing a "role".
 


Quote
 Denise, it is beyond that. Since we know that AA was not Anastasia, we either have to believe that she consciously pretended to be AN, which for some reason I doubt, or that she was delusional and actually believed she was AN. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think she was playing a role, she really did take on AN's identity. Which means that as early as 1920, she was already seriously mentally ill - it didn't happen later in life - it was already there back then. It only got worse as she got older (which is what normally happens). The fact that she jumped off that bridge supports this theory too...

So basically the two choices are: AA was an impostor and an "actress" or AA was a mentally ill delusional woman who believed she was Anastasia. These are the two only options. I tend to believe the latter...


This is all leading to the same thing Helen.  "Fugue states" are a type of blanking out of the main personality, similar to MPD.  Sybil suffered from both, if you are familiar with that case.  I often wonder about AA and MPD.  If she had been in a fugue state and tried to kill herself, then when she was rescued was a "blank slate" so to speak that the Anastasia personality was written on.  

Even if FS was not AA, this explanation makes the most sense for AA herself.  It would be why she was never thought to be playing a role.  Any info given her about the IF would be written to her "blank slate" hence her mistakes when people gave conflicting stories.

Denise

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 01:04:50 PM
Quote
Second, don't shove the time frame's here off to coincidence.  They are very important in ANY historical or genealogical research project.  As it helps you define who and what you are looking for.  
 


Yes, I agree, we need to confirm all time frames one way or another. I wonder if this is even possible at this point...

Quote
 ...you are dealing with a time when having an emotionally or mentally unstable relative was a shame upon the family.  Isn't it easier for them to accept her as dead, then have to deal with the shame of knowing she is alive and in an asylum.


Yes, I definitely think so too.

Quote
I wonder what compelling evidence the police had other than Grossman's diary, was there ever a body found, or anything else of FS's.


I would like to know about that too. But that's the problem: I don't think that they had any other evidence but the rough timing and a last name in a psychopath's diary that sounded vaguely like FS's

Quote
While I admit that her disapperance and the reporting of it time well with the appearance of Fraulein Unbekannent, I still think that we need more answers to these questions, before saying she is definitely FS.
 


Yes, and this is what we are trying to figure out  here :D


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 05, 2005, 01:08:53 PM
As gross as it sounds, Felix's remark about sauages is close but not accurate.  Grossman cut up the body parts into chucks of meat which he placed in a cart which he rolled around the Berlin streets selling this meat, probably saying it  was horse meat.  People were so hungry at this time,  they no longer asked questions about the origins of the meat these people were selling.  I assume,  they didn't want to know for if they knew they wouldn't be able to justify eating it.  And eating it was necessary because they and their families would die without it.

Life wasn't pretty at that point in history in Berlin or St. Petersberg...

Does anyone know if FS mental problem started before or after the grenade blast in the factory which killed a worker?  And, was she the one who dropped it?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 01:12:30 PM
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This is all leading to the same thing Helen.  "Fugue states" are a type of blanking out of the main personality, similar to MPD.  Sybil suffered from both, if you are familiar with that case.  I often wonder about AA and MPD.  If she had been in a fugue state and tried to kill herself, then when she was rescued was a "blank slate" so to speak that the Anastasia personality was written on.  

Even if FS was not AA, this explanation makes the most sense for AA herself.  It would be why she was never thought to be playing a role.  Any info given her about the IF would be written to her "blank slate" hence her mistakes when people gave conflicting stories.

Denise



Yes, I am familiar with Sybil, and also other cases like this.

I have also had "real life" experiences with people who were schitzophrenic and/or delusional, and when you don't know much about these conditions, these people can be very convincing. In fact, it may take a really long time to realize that there is something wrong with them, they can totally draw you in - to a point when you start wondering if you are the one who is delusional!

What you just said about the blank slate makes a lot of sense. This is how it works. At the very least, whether AA was FS or not, we know that she must have suffered from something along these lines (or else she was a sociopath and a pathological liar, which I don't think was the case). So if it can be shown that FS had the same psychological condition, then this would be another piece of consistent evidence ... It would certainly explain a lot.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 05, 2005, 02:56:57 PM
What happened to that 'gallery of photos?' I thought her family was poor and there were no abundance of pics, and the only one known to exist was the one in my avatar ??? Surely if there was a wondrous 'gallery' they'd have made their way into someone's book?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 03:01:29 PM
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 Not saying that there wasn't something going on there, but only in the same way that most of us probably have a few mental quirks.  :D


But most of us don't think that we are Grand Duchesses!  ;) This was the fact that I was basing my comments on, not on the video tapes I have seen of AA. I didn't think she came off all that bad in those video tapes, not any worse than any other run-of-the-mill little old lady, certainly not any worse than my own grandmother! It's the fact that she was convinced that she was Anastasia that makes me convinced that she was seriously delusional. As I mentioned before, having these delusions wouldn't necessarily make her act "crazy" all around - her insisting that she was AN could have been the only obvious manifestation of her condition most of the time, if you don't count the occasional breakdowns (which apparently she did have sometimes, when she ran around naked on the roofs, or was it patios, when she was in the US, etc., at least this is what I read, is it true?). But for those people who actually believed that she was Anastasia, she may have come off perfectly "normal". This is how it works most of the time, unless you know the real story.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 03:06:29 PM
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 When she was asked about FS's personality, she described someone that seemed either to really enjoy playacting, or someone who had "delusions of grandeur" -- whatever mental state this might suggest.  


So it sounds like FS may in fact have been delusional and often imagined herself to be something she really wasn't. Just like AA seems to have done....

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 She was given a gallery of photographs to look through...
 

I was also under the impression that the only photo that existed of FS was the one we always see of her everywhere, the one that was supposedly altered? So there were many others then?

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 03:12:50 PM
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The gallery was the equivalent of an identity parade -- a line-up.  They were just random women with one of Fraulein Unbekannt/Anna Anderson put in to see if this Martha could ID her as Franziska.  The joke was that she thought they were ALL Franziska, EXCEPT for AA...

Oh ok, I see. That's kind of funny, actually.  :D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 03:20:36 PM
But Penny, think about it logically. We know that AA was not Anastasia. But she insisted she was Anastasia. That either makes her a liar or it makes her delusional. I prefer to think that she was not a liar but that she was mentally ill. Do you think she was a liar then? Yes, it's possible it was a calculated act, but somehow I feel that she really believed it. And believe me, it would be very easy to mistake her for not being "crazy", this has no reflection on the people who did. Delusional people can be extremely convincing. I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she was not trying to mislead anyone and that she really thought she was AN. But anything is possible.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 05, 2005, 04:01:33 PM
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With Franziska, the only two things that made me think she might have had some mental issues were (a) the explosion and her resultant "insanity" -- which may have been something that we today would see as something much more benign, like depression or "survivor's guilt", and (b) the "movie queen" testimony of her friend, Martha.


When you say that FS was in and out of mental hospitals, was this before or after the explosion? If before, was it only because she used to act like a "movie queen" or was there another reason for it? I can't imagine someone being in and out of mental hospitals just because they did that, but it's possible...

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With AA, I can remember the feeling of surprise I had at realizing how "normal" she was.  If we accept that she was not Anastasia -- as we are doing here because of the DNA -- then I think that I would have to conclude that her deception was an intentional and calculated one, and not the manifestation of a mental illness.


I am going to share a story of my own experience with someone who was completely delusional, except I didn't know it until much later. I had a roommate while I was in college who I found out later was schitzophrenic and delusional, but I had no idea she was until much later because I believed her stories. She must have stopped taking her medications one day. She used to tell me some strange stories about finding her real mother (she was adopted) and her real sister, and that they were some very prominent people. I believed her. I had absolutely no idea for the longest time that all this was in her mind! She acted perfectly normal. I only suspected that something was wrong when one day, much much later, she cut off all her hair, completely. She still had a plausible explanation for doing that, but it just didn't sit right with me. That's when I did a little investigating and found out all her stories were completely in her own imagination. I was shocked! I knew this person very well, and saw her every day for a long time, we lived in the same apartment! There is a lot more to this story, but I don't really want to bore anyone. My point is, I found out later that these people can come off as completely normal most of the time, you would not suspect anything unless you knew certain facts... and often you don't. It is not an insult to say that someone who believes them is being naive, or stupid, or whatever, anyone would believe them as long as there  was no reason to suspect anything. But once you know that the stories they are telling are not real, that's when you start realizing that something is not "right" with this person. Otherwise they seem completely normal until they have a breakdown of some sort. If you never find out about the stories being false, and you never witness the breakdown, you could continue thinking that this person is fine indefinitely...

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Franziska, though, is a conundrum.  The Wingenders testified that she was coarse, filthy and seldom washed, and that she had "blackened stumps" for teeth; Felix Schanzkowsky testified that she was neat and clean, and had a full set of good teeth.  The photograph that we have of Franziska seem to support Felix, though we can't see her teeth, of course.  Then there are the friends and relatives who say that Franziska was the "cleverest" of the children and was constantly reading books and dreaming above her station; on the flip-side was her teacher who found her to be an indifferent and even rather backwards student.



All this can be related to a mental illness. She could have been schitzophrenic but at the same time she could be very clever. Remember John Nash? He was brilliant! And he was about as schitzophrenic and delusional as they come. At the same time she could also have been bi-polar, sometimes neglecting her appearance, and at other times become a "glamour queen". Her personality could have changed accordingly... back and forth. All this is consistent with mental illness. Not every mentally ill person is obviously so, especially back then much less was understood about it...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 05, 2005, 06:37:38 PM
 
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The gallery was the equivalent of an identity parade -- a line-up.  They were just random women with one of Fraulein Unbekannt/Anna Anderson put in to see if this Martha could ID her as Franziska.  The joke was that she thought they were ALL Franziska, EXCEPT for AA...


OH! LOL! Some witness she was, talk about subjective! ::) ;) :D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: jolie on February 05, 2005, 07:31:18 PM
Speaking of mental illness:  I was in my 30's before I found out my grandmother had another sister  who had been in an institution virtually her WHOLE LIFE>    The bizarre thing for me was; our family is VERY close and we all spend lots of time with each other.......but all of us grand kids had NO CLUE about this Great Aunt.

Seems our mothers and grandmother used to go visit her but kept it a secret from us.  The reason she was institutionalized was "melancholy".   Her mother had died when she was a girl and supposedly she just couldn't get over it.

To this day (I'm 53) no one will give me any specifics as to exactly how she behaved, etc.   They brush it off.   Obviously, this was just NOT something people talked about back then.   Family would visit her, but no one spoke about her.    My mother gets angry if I ask about her aunt because my mother just accepted the "melancholy" story and never questioned.   Typical of our parents generation.  (The Greatest)

Today, my great aunt might just been given some antidepressants, therapy and lead a productive life.
Today, Half of our population would be institutionalized by yesterday's standards!!   ( AND ALL OF THE TEENS!! :))
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 05, 2005, 07:49:13 PM
That's true, the older generations were so easily embarrassed (my mom was like this, and the older ones even more so) by the silliest of things. I do think some families were so ashamed of things they thought brought disgrace to the family they'd rather see someone dead than 'embarrassing' them  ::) :(
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Aliard on February 05, 2005, 11:13:54 PM
Quote


OH! LOL! Some witness she was, talk about subjective! ::) ;) :D


Oh, the irony ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 06, 2005, 10:38:45 AM
You are right Penny, FS is a conundrum. The description given by Wingenders, totally is at odds with the description of the nurses, and the description by Felix.

Which one is lying, which one is telling the truth?  I have
thought about this, and really it does seem that I don't have a photo of FS to compare to the ones of AA.  

The variance in descriptions of FS also point away from her being AA, while the DNA points towards it.  It is a mystery for Hercule Poirot!!!!  ;D

Finally the way AA lived in the later years in Germany & Virginia is more typical of the Wingenders description of her.

My instinct tells me that we the DNA can't be wrong, but how could one person be so different physically from each description, of her.

Also Felix's statement that his sister had small, pretty feet like his, with no deformities.  Hallux Valgus, as I remember from a photo is very prominent.   Also his sister had no scars such as AA did.  

It does make you wonder who this woman was?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 06, 2005, 10:46:50 AM
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 I don't have a photo of FS to compare to the ones of AA.  



Check out my avatar! That's FS!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 06, 2005, 10:55:27 AM
Also, Michael, here is a collage Lisa posted before you got here. The only known pic of FS was in the middle, the others are all AA.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafs.jpg)

Even though there are cries the pic has been retouched, it does not change its basic bone structure or the placings of the features. Here, compare the spacing of the eyes, and the shape of the chin to AN (left) and AA (right) Also notice AA had a much larger mouth and thicker lips (which is why I think she usually bit them in some photos)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anaa.jpg)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 06, 2005, 11:08:25 AM
Thanks Annie.  The pic of FS and those of AA  are similar.
However I do find the fullness of AA's lips to be much fuller than that of the pic of FS.  While I definitely don't see any resemblance to AN.  Just my opinion :-X
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 06, 2005, 11:09:49 AM
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The variance in descriptions of FS also point away from her being AA, while the DNA points towards it.  

Not just DNA, some descriptions point towards her too, like her friend's Martha's who described her as always giving herself "airs" and acting as someone she was not. Also, see my previous post about mental illness, this type of personality difference is really possible, in fact probable, when someone suffers from a certain type of mental illness. And apparently, neither FS nor AA were strangers to mental illness (both spent lots of time in mental hospitals, at the very least).

Quote

Also Felix's statement that his sister had small, pretty feet like his, with no deformities.  Hallux Valgus, as I remember from a photo is very prominent.  

Please see my previous post about hallux valgus. This type of a condition can and often does develop later in life. You may start out with perfectly normal feet and end up with a prominent bunion in a very short period of time...  And according to the stats that someone else posted somewhere, it seems that more than 50% of women suffer from this condition (although they are not born with it). This type of thing is to common to serve as any kind of evidence of someone's identity. Plus, considering that Felix's testimonies were  sort of erratic and contradictory ("she is my sister, she is not my sister", etc.) I wouldn't exactly call him the most reliable eye witness in the world...


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 06, 2005, 11:22:21 AM
Helen, I don't consider Felix's testimony to be vague or inconsistent.  While he states that AA resembles his sister from the front, that is where it ends, and he is specific and doesn't recant his sworn affadavit, that she was not his sister.

While of course I can't attribute motives to him one way or the other.  He did not recognize her as his sister.

Martha was her childhood friend, correct? What about the Wingenders testimony of blackened stumps for teeth, living like a pig, etc. filthy, dirty, vs. the nurse's testimonies at Dalldorf, clean, noble bearing, excellent manners, teeth, well dressed.

Yes Hallux Valgus can develop, but I think it is interesting that Felix said "no deformities" of the feet specifically, along with the scars.

While the DNA evidence cannot be refuted, I am still curious about the differences in the testimonies describing  AA & FS, and I do agree about the mental illness issue you describe.  I am not at all ready to write it all off yet.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 06, 2005, 11:24:15 AM
Actually, to me, the picture of FS resembles AN slightly more than any of the pictures of AA resemble AN (maybe because the lips in the FS picture look somewhat less full than AA's). The picture of AA in the lower right corner looks a lot like the FS picture. In general, all the AA pictures look somewhat like FS - although not exactly - kind of like the way close relatives would resemble each other. But it is conceivable that it could be the same person. While none of AA's pictures look anything like AN to me. All of this is my own personal opinion of course...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 06, 2005, 11:37:58 AM
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Helen, I don't consider Felix's testimony to be vague or inconsistent.  While he states that AA resembles his sister from the front, that is where it ends, and he is specific and doesn't recant his sworn affadavit, that she was not his sister.


I could be wrong about this, but from what I recall, Felix did recognize AA as his sister at first, but then when they asked him to sign something, he recanted and said that she wasn't. He explained that by saying that she only looks like her from the front. I could be mistaken about this, but I think this is what someone posted at some point... To me, that's not really reliable testimony...

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Martha was her childhood friend, correct? What about the Wingenders testimony of blackened stumps for teeth, living like a pig, etc. filthy, dirty, vs. the nurse's testimonies at Dalldorf, clean, noble bearing, excellent manners, teeth, well dressed.
Yes Hallux Valgus can develop, but I think it is interesting that Felix said "no deformities" of the feet specifically, along with the scars.
 


It is also interesting that someone else (the Wingenders ) gave testimony almost directly contradicting Felix's... and then yet again the nurses testimony was completely different. This is why I am hesitant to believe either one - they sort of cancel each other out. All this could be due to her mental illness, sometimes she could have been very clean and neat, at other times she lived like a pig and didn't even clean her nails (could be manifestations of bipolar disorder). So none of the witnesses may have been lying, it just depended on the time period they knew her... Besides, all that stuff is kind of subjective, isn't it? What may seem like "noble bearing" to some, may not to others. Could "noble bearing" possibly be the same as giving oneself "airs"?  ;)
The teeth thing is more diffult to explain, there is a big difference between a "nice set of teeth' and 'black stumps". But this is why I said that neither one seems to be reliable testimony. I don't know why Felix fixated on her feet, maybe someone specifically asked him about that? Either way, to me the foot shape is not really so convincing because of the hallux valgus that could have come along later on.

Yes, Martha I believe was FS's  childhood friend or at least from the time when she was younger.

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I am not at all ready to write it all off yet.


Michael, no one is asking you to. We're just discussing  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 06, 2005, 12:32:31 PM
Helen, Felix met AA that day 9 May 1927 at Wasserburg,
and  Dr Voller had already prepared an affadavit for him to sign, stating that indeed she was his sister Franziska.
The affadavit stated:  " From her face (Front & Profile),  her hair, her figure, her walk, her feet, and hands I have recognized my sister, Franziska Schanzkowska, beyond any doubt. "

That evening Frau von Rathlef, crushed, handed Felix the paper for his signature.  Her relief was intense, when she suddenly heard Felix declare: "No I won't do it. She isn't my sister."

It was the most stunning about face to date.  "She isn't  your sister!"  Frau von Rathled exclaimed.

No, said Felix adding again he would not sign a false declaration that might land him in jail.

Now what?  Dr. Voller drew up another affadavit and this time Felix did not hesitate to sign it.

This is from Peter Kurth's "Riddle Of Anna Anderson" page 174.

I previously posted the affadavit he did sign.

You are correct in stating at first he did recognize her as his sister.  When upon seeing her the first time he was asked "Who is that lady?"    "She is my sister." said Felix.   (pg 174  PK  "Riddle of Anna Anderson")

However, something happened between that day & that night to make him change his mind, and from that point on he did not waiver from his decision, that she was not his sister.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 06, 2005, 12:56:47 PM
Thanks for posting that, Michael.  I was about to do so.  The thing he said that made him change his mind was that AA just didn't know him.  As he said it "she didn't have the slightest idea who I was." She acted as she would with a stranger she had just met.  

He said at that point that he would not sign a false document that might land him in jail, so they prepared a second affidavit.

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 06, 2005, 01:15:18 PM
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The thing he said that made him change his mind was that AA just didn't know him.  As he said it "she didn't have the slightest idea who I was." She acted as she would with a stranger she had just met.  He said at that point that he would not sign a false document that might land him in jail, so they prepared a second affidavit.
 


Hmmm... That was the reason he changed his mind? But wouldn't everyone have expected her to act like she didn't know him while she was claiming to be Anastasia and not Franziska? Whether she was pretending or whether she really thought she was AN,  of course she would say she didn't recognize Felix, FS's brother! Why would he go by that and not by whether he himself recognized her (which apparently he did at first) ? This makes no sense...  

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 06, 2005, 01:37:31 PM
Well, the way I read it in Peter's account was that he spent a good 6-7 hours with her, talking, walking about.  It was a fairly long visit.  He did also say (as was mentioned earlier, I believe) that it was only when directly facing her did AA resemble his sister.  From the side was no resemblance.  But I believe you brough up the good point that after having teeth removes a profile would definately be different.  My own mother looked different after getting dentures.

And did AA get a partial, dentures or something after her teeth were pulled?  And why were they pulled?  Irrelevant, but I am curious.  The skeptics among us might say that her teeth were pulled to change the look of her jaw line to look more like AN.  But I was wondering if there were a medical reason....

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 06, 2005, 01:54:01 PM
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Well, the way I read it in Peter's account was that he spent a good 6-7 hours with her, talking, walking about.  It was a fairly long visit.  


If she was in a fugue state, like you mentioned earlier, she may actually not have remembered him at all, and therefore acted as if she didn't know him. Arguably, if she was deliberately pretending, obviously she was a good enough actress, so she was convincing when she pretended she didn't know him. Either way, it is not in any way surprising that she didn't "recognize" Felix, if she was FS. Did they actually expect her, after all that went on up until that point, to suddenly see him and say, "oh yes that's my brother, I am FS, lets go home now!"? Of course not!

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But I believe you brought up the good point that after having teeth removed a profile would definately be different.  My own mother looked different after getting dentures.


Having teeth and not having teeth can change a person's appearance dramatically. The whole jawline would look completely different, therefore her face would look very different in profile, if not from the front.

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 And why were they pulled?  The skeptics among us might say that her teeth were pulled to change the look of her jaw line to look more like AN.  But I was wondering if there were a medical reason....


I don't think they pulled them out on purpose to change her appearance. I think she must have had some problem so instead of treating her teeth, they just pulled them out because it was cheaper and easier (after all, no one was paying for her treatment). But I really don't know. I wonder if it was in her chart?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 06, 2005, 01:54:59 PM
You are welcome Denise ;D

I do think it would be hard for a person not to show some kind of recognition of a long lost relative.  Also he comments on her manner of speech being different, which I realize someone could change with practice, and the physical issues.

She would have to be damn good (sorry) to fool someone after 6-7 hours of walking, talking, some manner of speech, some physical characteristic or trait would have to give her away, IMO.  Unless she was deluded enough to believe she was AN, and it took over her mind, and in her own mind became AN....

I am also curious about the reasons for teeth removal.

However her lips were much to full to be FS. IMO.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 06, 2005, 02:04:02 PM
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She would have to be damn good (sorry) to fool someone after 6-7 hours of walking, talking, some manner of speech, some physical characteristic or trait would have to give her away, IMO.  Unless she was deluded enough to believe she was AN, and it took over her mind, and in her own mind became AN....    


This is why I am convinced that she was delusional and not pretending. In this case it wouldn't be hard at all but completely natural for her.. The manner of speech and other mannerism changes in those with MPD, they become a totally different person, so yes this is totally possible with mental illness.

What I am really curious about though is what the heck Felix and AA talked about for 6-7 hours if she said she didn't know him ???  ;)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 06, 2005, 03:18:04 PM
Yes, I agree with you about the curiousity regarding their long conversation.  I am sure the Dr Voller & Frau Von Rathlef were there with them.  However my edition of Riddle of Anna Anderson doesn't detail the length of their conversation, or if it has I have passed it up.

I do wonder about the delusional part.  Penny is right about the fact that this woman (AA), most people who knew her didn't refer to her or talk about her as delusional or off, or mentally ill.  Most people she was in contact with considered her rational.  While I agree that  she could be putting over a huge con, or really believe that she was AN so she became AN, I find it hard to think she could have put it over on this many people, many who were well educated, and sophisticated, without one of them NOT finding it out.

Sorry forgot to add that last line in
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 06, 2005, 03:44:42 PM
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I find it hard to think she could have put it over on this many people, many who were well educated, and sophisticated, without one of them NOT finding it out.
 


But obviously she did, one way or another, because she was not Anastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 06, 2005, 04:17:42 PM
Quote

What I am really curious about though is what the heck Felix and AA talked about for 6-7 hours if she said she didn't know him ???  ;)



That was the length of the visit, per the book.  It says she got there in the afternoon, and "later that evening" he was asked to sign.  Per Felix' own testimony, they "talked repeatedly."  She was told this was her brother upon his arrival.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 06, 2005, 04:33:19 PM
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....[in part]....

This is why I am convinced that she was delusional and not pretending. In this case it wouldn't be hard at all but completely natural for her.. The manner of speech and other mannerism changes in those with MPD, they become a totally different person, so yes this is totally possible with mental illness.

...


Why is it that so many of you can agree on the fact that AA was "delusional", suffereing from "depression", etc. etc. and completely skip over Penny's thoughts that AA was intentionaly a fake?

Are many of you afaid of what it might mean that AA was "intentionaly a fake"?

Or, are some of you just trying to  show evidence AA must have been FS  because FS was committed several times and so she must have been "crazy" and so was AA therefore they must be the same person?

I don't feel so bad about some of wild speculations, now.  ;)  [Humor attempt.]


AGRBear

PS  AND yes, I know about the mtDNA matching Karl Maucher's which proves AA's relationship as being his possible aunt, cousin or 25th cousin data.  Helen has helped me through a quick course on this subject.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: rskkiya on February 06, 2005, 04:48:13 PM
     Agrbear has suggested that many people here do not want to believe that Anna A was simply pretending to be Anastasia, but  they would rather see her as 'mad'. This is a valid statement.

    I am rather persuaded that she was emotionally and mentally unstable because so many other things that she did were highly irrational --burning dead cats in a fireplace and living in filth are simply two examples that come to mind... Mind you it's possible that she was simply "faking it", but I don't really see what Agrbear is hinting at -- what is the point? Crazy person or con artiste  - at this point it makes no difference.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 06, 2005, 05:19:24 PM
Quote
    Agrbear has suggested that many people here do not want to believe that Anna A was simply pretending to be Anastasia, but  they would rather see her as 'mad'. This is a valid statement.

     I am rather persuaded that she was emotionally and mentally unstable because so many other things that she did were highly irrational --burning dead cats in a fireplace and living in filth are simply two examples that come to mind... Mind you it's possible that she was simply "faking it", but I don't really see what Agrbear is hinting at -- what is the point? Crazy person or con artiste  - at this point it makes no difference.


Perhaps people prefer to see her as "Mad" because it continues to keep her a romantic, sympathetic figure.  As a con artist there is no more sympathy for AA, and if you were formally a supporter you feel used.  

Her later behavior, as mad as it was, can be written off as senile dementia.  I watched my grandmother begin to slide before her death, and it is awful what can happen to the elderly....

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 06, 2005, 06:06:15 PM
Quote

Why is it that so many of you can agree on the fact that AA was "delusional", suffereing from "depression", etc. etc. and completely skip over Penny's thoughts that AA was intentionaly a fake? Are many of you afaid of what it might mean that AA was "intentionaly a fake"?


Not at all, no one ignored this possibility. I even said that it is possible (see some of my previous posts) - she may have been a fake, sure. It just seems more consistent, based on what we know, that AA actually believed herself to be AN, which would make her delusional, and this is why I am more convinced of that option. One of the main reasons why it seems to me that it was more likely that AA was mentally disturbed than not, is that I read somewhere that even when she was young, (and way before those weird "cat incidents"), while she was staying at various people's houses (I believe it was in the United States) she used to have some kind of break downs where she would run around naked on the roof of the building and other public places, something like that. That to me sounds like a mentally ill person (unless of course she was pretending to be mentally ill)...  ;) But just because I am convinced of her being mentally ill, it doesn't mean it is so, if you'd rather she had been a fake, that's fine with me  :).

Quote
... are some of you just trying to  show evidence AA must have been FS  because FS was committed several times and so she must have been "crazy" and so was AA therefore they must be the same person?
 

Just because both AA and FS were mentally ill wouldn't prove they were the same person, it would just show consistency. To use this as proof would be the almost the same as using AA's bunions on her feet as proof that she was AN - so many people have bunions that it is meaningless. So many people out there are mentally ill - this would be meaningless too...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 06, 2005, 07:40:39 PM
It seems to, like Helen says, that the consistancy of AA's behavior points more to delusional behavior than it does to deliberate pretence.  After all, somewhere during the course of her existence as Anastasia, a deliberate con artist would have to slip up and reveal something of her previous existence--former acquaintences might show up etc.  But to our knowledge this never happened.  AA got info wrong that AAN should have known, but never slipped in her story.  It is like AA (like Athena from Zeus's head) was born fully formed from the Berlin canal and stepped into the skin of (her impression of) Grand Duchess Anastasia.

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Michelle on February 06, 2005, 08:36:17 PM
It said in Peter's book that AA all of a sudden started telling Clara P about her identity.  I'm not quite sure what compelled her to tell this quirky woman about herself when she had distrusted so many people up until then. ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 06, 2005, 08:50:26 PM
Yes, on pages 11-12 Peter talks about how FU stared hinting to the nurses about one of the daughters surviving, and asking them if they saw a resemblance to her in pictures of the imperial daughters.  After Clara's admission in 1921 to Dalldorf and her forthcoming friendship with FU, she was the one who got the case its widespread publicity.

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 06, 2005, 09:38:43 PM
Quote


What I am really curious about though is what the heck Felix and AA talked about for 6-7 hours if she said she didn't know him ???  ;)



Me too. I'd say there was a lot of back and forth, discussing the pro and con of admitting it was her. Finally they (IMO) decided it was best for eveyone, her and the family, if she were not exposed.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 06, 2005, 10:24:14 PM
Quote

Me too. I'd say there was a lot of back and forth, discussing the pro and con of admitting it was her. Finally they (IMO) decided it was best for eveyone, her and the family, if she were not exposed.


Sorry Annie, but there were others there.  I don't think they were alone enough to discuss how to pull a con!

D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 06, 2005, 11:04:14 PM
Bear, ANYTHING could be a possiblity at this point.  She could have intentionally been a total fake.  That is not lost on me.  She could have put this whole charade on
consciously without any delusion or mental illness.

I think ANYTHING is possible at this point, but remember Bear she had to be good at this, better than she had been at anything else, she had a great many people to fool, and for what??? A lifetime of notariety, there was no money.  

My thoughts are if she was intentionally faking it, then how did she learn all that she did, and retain it. Remember many people were bowled over by her, and taken in by her.  People who considered themselves smart, and she tried the patience of all that she came in contact with who supported her for any length of time.

I think people would rather believe she was delusional or mad, rather than think of the possiblity of someone doing this deliberately.  

What was the last line of the movie Anastasia with Helen Hayes as the Dowager Empress, when the Prince Paul, (I think) asks, what shall we tell them, and she answers back, "That the masquerade is over, it's time to go home."   Perhaps that's what this all was for AA,
a masquerade, a play, a performance.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Alice on February 07, 2005, 04:48:10 AM
Quote
Also, Michael, here is a collage Lisa posted before you got here. The only known pic of FS was in the middle, the others are all AA.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafs.jpg)

Even though there are cries the pic has been retouched, it does not change its basic bone structure or the placings of the features. Here, compare the spacing of the eyes, and the shape of the chin to AN (left) and AA (right) Also notice AA had a much larger mouth and thicker lips (which is why I think she usually bit them in some photos)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anaa.jpg)


I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the place where the hair is parted, for both FS and AA. You'll notice it's the same for FS and AA. This is noticeable in three of the four AA photos.

Also, observe the angle of the eyebrows. Again, the same for both AA and FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Abby on February 07, 2005, 07:23:50 AM
Quote
Does anyone know the history of the one published photograph of FS? Who turned it in? Was it a family photo? etc.

I"m looking into this now, but does anyone know if information has already been published?  


The picture was published in the Berliner Nachtausgabe in March 1927 and then it was published again in Pierre Gilliard's Le Fausse Anastasie but it had already been retouched by then.
Probably the family handed it over? Maybe it was the one the police used to search for FS (if they ever did search for her?) ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 07, 2005, 09:47:58 AM
I think it is very possible she was not delusional or mentally disturbed.  Some of these photos look retouched.  I wish we could see the originals.

Since AA had no confidants that she ever told her secrets to, then her secrets, whatever they were followed her to her death.   If she REALLY believes she was AN, and am not inferring she was "off" mentally, then she obviously must have began to believe it herself.  Just my opinion, if that is the case.

However the difference in the descriptions of her is what baffles me, how could one person be so physicially different...  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 09:51:49 AM
Quote

However the difference in the descriptions of her is what baffles me, how could one person be so physicially different...  


Yes, Felix, the Wingenders and Gertrude all seem to describe different people.  What baffles me the most is how Felix said she had a full set of good teeth, yet the Wingender described FS teeth as blackened stumps.  It takes quite a long time for teeth to deteriorate to that point, so I don't put as much stock in their testimony.  Gertrude was living with FS through WWI and made no mention of that.  Between 1916 and 1920 her teeth were supposed to blacken and rot off??

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 10:03:34 AM
I was also thinking about the fact that after examining her the physicians at the hospital had determined that AA had given birth to at least one child. As far as anyone knew, FS never gave birth to any children. I was wondering (and  I am sure this has been mentioned already), what was the time period between the last time any family member or friend saw FS and the time that AA was pulled out of the canal? Was it at least 7-9 months?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 10:09:22 AM
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Yes, Felix, the Wingenders and Gertrude all seem to describe different people.  What baffles me the most is how Felix said she had a full set of good teeth, yet the Wingender described FS teeth as blackened stumps.  It takes quite a long time for teeth to deteriorate to that point, so I don't put as much stock in their testimony.  
 This is why I was saying that we should just disregard the whole thing abou the teeth, as these testimonies cancel each other out. Besides, this information doesn't provide any evidence as to whether FS may have been AA or not, since they are describing FS only and not AA in comparison to FS. Besides, AA didn't end up having any teeth at all, and we don't know what her teeth were like before they pulled them all out, so the point about the teeth is moot. But this just shows how these kinds of testimonies are very unreliable, people tend to get things confused all the time - eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable. Obviously in this case, at least one of them was completely unreliable but there is no way to know which one...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 10:26:00 AM
Quote
I was also thinking about the fact that after examining her the physicians at the hospital had determined that AA had given birth to at least one child. As far as anyone knew, FS never gave birth to any children. I was wondering (and  I am sure this has been mentioned already), what was the time period between the last time any family member or friend saw FS and the time that AA was pulled out of the canal? Was it at least 7-9 months?


Well, wasn't she living with the Wingenders up until her disappearance around Feb 27, 1920?  I can't believe they wouldn't notice pregnancy if that were the case.  and during the war she lived with Gertrude.  So that leaves a window of about 3 years to produce a child, if AA is FS.  And was it the drs who said she had given birth, or was it one of AA's stories as Frau Tchaikovsky?


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 10:30:46 AM
Quote
So that leaves a window of about 3 years to produce a child, if AA is FS.


That's plenty of time. She could have had the child, abandoned it somewhere* and no one would have been the wiser.. I am sure this wasn't uncommon during that time.... I wonder if anyone tried to find this child, if he lived.

Quote
And was it the drs who said she had given birth, or was it one of AA's stories as Frau Tchaikovsky?


Both.

*Unless it died at birth or shortly after.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 11:02:31 AM
The birth of a child does take about nine months, at least the last time I checked  ;), so,  if the doctors voiced the opinion she had given birth, it would have been a  birth through the birth canel.  If the child was born early, alive or dead, we have no way of knowing.

Therefore, do you think the child was her lover's who had gone off to war and she quietly carried and gave birth without anyone knowing? Often times,  a family member will take in a child born out of wedlock and no one speaks about it and the child becomes part of the adopted family.  Often times,  the child is unaware of this change.

How much search has there been done on this  Tchaikovsky family?  Any records of such a family in Berlin?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 11:12:31 AM
Quote
How much search has there been done on this  Tchaikovsky family?  Any records of such a family in Berlin?


From what I understand, they did try to find records of this family, but there is no evidence they ever existed, or that anyone by that name served as a guard at the Ipatiev's house in the summer of 1918, as AA claimed...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 07, 2005, 11:25:08 AM
Helen I am wondering if we should disregard the descriptions also... However what about the affadavits of the nurses, the doctors, etc. from her stay at Dalldorf after she was pulled from the canal and became known as FU.

Also another point about the teeth pulling, some of her teeth were pulled at her request by dentist/doctors at the Dalldorf facility, as one nurse said to alter, her appearance, but it also states she suffered constantly from the toothache.  She also desired anonymity, to do nothing more than vanish.  

I have never believed this whole Tchaiakovsky nonsense
I am sorry, something would have been found long before now had it been true.  If she did have a child might there not have been adoption records, or some record of birth?

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 11:32:52 AM
Quote
I am sorry, something would have been found long before now had it been true.  If she did have a child might there not have been adoption records, or some record of birth?



Ah, but this puts us back to square one.  We would have to know her NAME to get a birth record or adoption record.  And it was war.  I am sure people were using alias if they didn't want to be known.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 11:37:25 AM
Most of you have forgotten the time frame.

At this time, few women went to the hospital to have a child.

Children's names were recorded in church records upon baptism and a lot of children during this time period didn't go through this old process.

Adoptions were just done without papers unless there was inheritance involved...

As for the Tchaikovsky family,  if they exsisted, we do not know if this was their real name.  They may have picked up the name to prove they were Polish so they could migr. west and into that area where they may have had other family members.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 11:43:58 AM
Very true Bear.  But I was thinking that IF AA was FS, then she was living in Berlin (a city) during the time of her pregnancy, therefore there might be more records of the birth.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 11:49:38 AM
Quote
If she did have a child might there not have been adoption records, or some record of birth?


Not necessarily. If she didn't have this child in a hospital which often women didn't at that time, there wouldn't really be any record. Plus we don't know what name she may have used when she gave birth. But it is a fact that AA did give birth, since the physicians could tell during the examination. If the child lived or not, is another story. The child could have also been inofficially adopted, we just don't know... I don't think that records were kept as thoroughly back then, especially post war...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 11:53:26 AM
Quote

...given Franziska's known schedule, including doctors' visits and time in asylums, there is no period of time unaccounted for that is longer than six or eight weeks or so between 1916 and her disappearance in early 1920.

Is it possible that she could have hidden the pregnancy until the last stages, about two months before, until she couldn't hide it anymore, so she "dissapeared" to give birth, and then proceeded to jump into the canal? Could the doctors tell how long before the exam she may have given birth? Was there anything in the chart about how recent this birth may have been?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 11:54:59 AM
Quote

This is true -- however, AA described her rescuers as a pair of brothers who served as guards in the Ipatiev house.  As we showed in FOTR, there were several pairs of brothers who served as guards, including the Polish brothers Mishkevich.


But what about "Tchaikovsky"? Did she say they changed their name? I don't think so...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 11:59:33 AM
Bear, is "Tchaikovski" or "Chaikovski", one of the names that has the same origin (root) as "Schankowsky"? It sounds a lot like it, certainly at least as much as "Sasnovski" sounds like "Schankowski". Just a thought...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 12:07:57 PM
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Did she have to?  

Might she not have changed it herself to protect them?  


Talk about "speculation"!  Evidence? ;)

Quote
.. She was paranoid enough about her own identity...  


But yet, once she decided she was Anastasia she started telling everyone who would listen, starting with the nurses and fellow mental patients that she was a Grand Duchess.  And she wouldn't stop saying it, once she decided that's who she was!

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 12:09:48 PM
Quote
Bear, is "Tchaikovski" or "Chaikovski", one of the names that has the same origin (root) as "Schankowsky"? It sounds a lot like it, certainly at least as much as "Sasnovski" sounds like "Schankowski". Just a thought...


I'll have to get back to you on this.  Not sure about "T" being dropped.  Listen to how you pronounce it yourself.  I don't hear "T" so I think it can be "Chaikovski".... which can be Schakovsky...   No "n" in there....  Just not sure.

I have to do some work and I'll be back later.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 12:10:19 PM
Quote


Did she have to?  

Might she not have changed it herself to protect them? She was paranoid enough about her own identity.  Remember, she was held in the Dalldorf Asylum in part because she wouldn't give her own name.  


I am glad to hear you suggest this Penny, as I was thinking about this myself while I was cooking my kids lunch (not that I am getting obsessive about the FS case!  ;)).

I think she NEVER wanted publicity, then when she was forced into it by Clara's efforts she would try to protect others.  

But then again, as she WAS NOT Anastasia, why would it matter that there were brother guards at Ipatiev House?  Unless she was not FS but someone who knew something about the final days of the Romanovs AND was genetically linked to Karl Maucher??

I think we might be making this a wee bit more complicated than it needs to be.  Otherwise NOTHING adds up.


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 12:13:40 PM
Quote

I'll have to get back to you on this.  Not sure about "T" being dropped.  Listen to how you pronounce it yourself.  I don't hear "T" so I think it can be "Chaikovski"....  Just not sure.


In which case what about Czenkowski (sp?) that was another version that may have been in the Grossman diary? That sounds a lot like Tchaikovski. In fact, in Russian, a "Tch" and "Ch" make the same sound, so it just depends on how you choose to spell it. I don't know about Polish though...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 12:14:44 PM
Who were the other brothers...."

Oh, and, what was the name of the young man who gave Maria her birthday cake ....  and had those private moments/hours...?

Now,  I'm going to be late....


AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 12:18:29 PM
Quote

I think she NEVER wanted publicity, then when she was forced into it by Clara's efforts she would try to protect others.  



But seriously, if she didn't want publicity and didn't want anyone to know who she was, then why even start throwing hints and then come out and say that she was AN? Which is what she did. She didn't have to you know. You would think she would deny it as much as possible even if someone accused her of being AN, if she wanted to keep it hush hush. But she didn't, she jumped right in and was insisting on that's who she was!
But as you say, Denise, it doesn't matter because she wasn't AN, so then why did she have to change the names of the Tchaikovskis? That's actually a moot point, unless like you said, she a relative of FS who in some way was connected to the IF and had to protect some people... Which would really be getting into the realm of fantasy.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 07, 2005, 12:25:39 PM
It is true that she wanted anonymity, and privacy, according to Kurths book while in Dalldorf.  She was afraid of being killed.

She was also at that time afraid of newspapers or publicity.

If she wasn't actually delusional, then what a grand fraud she perpetrated.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 12:33:44 PM
Quote
It is true that she wanted anonymity, and privacy, according to Kurths book while in Dalldorf.  She was afraid of being killed.
She was also at that time afraid of newspapers or publicity.

This could be consistent with schitzphrenic/paraniod/delusional condition... Very often they feel that someone is after them wanting to kill them... But then why did she start announcing that she was AN to everyone?

Quote
If she wasn't actually delusional, then what a grand fraud she perpetrated.


Absolutely! If she was not delusional, she must have been brilliant!

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 12:38:10 PM
Here is a very brief definition of this condition from  General Practice Notebook Medical encyclopedia:

Medical search

Delusions of grandeur are a kind of paranoid delusion particularly associated with manic illness. However, some people hold such a delusion without other manifestations of mania, and without relapsing into the relapsing course typical of manic-depressive illness. In such cases the diagnosis of paranoid state is made.


Diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia (USA criteria)

Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):

Delusions - false beliefs strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: for example, paranoid delusions, or delusions of persecution, for example believing that people are "out to get" you, or the thought that people are doing things when there is no external evidence that such things are taking place.

Delusions of grandeur - for example when you believe that you are very special or have special powers or abilities. An example of a grandiouse delusion is thinking you are a famous rock star.





Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 12:40:24 PM
Quote
But then why did she start announcing that she was AN to everyone?



At first she merely gave indications to the nurses that one of NII daughters survived, not that she was that daughter.  Then she pointed out her resemblance to the photographs.  

It was after Clara came that CLARA said she was the Grand Duchess, and contacted people.  It seems that had the nurses reported her delusions earlier, nothing would have come of this.  Peter points out in his book that they were loathe to report her delusions to authorities because this was the first way they had gotten her to communicate with them.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 12:45:22 PM
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Just like Grand Duchesses who have already escaped one attempted murder...  8)

(Or like someone acting like a Grand Duchess who has already escaped one murder attempt...)


So are we back to saying that AA may have been AN?  ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Abby on February 07, 2005, 12:57:28 PM
Quote
Who were the other brothers...."

Oh, and, what was the name of the young man who gave Maria her birthday cake ....  and had those private moments/hours...?

Now,  I'm going to be late....


AGRBear




Ivan Skorokhodov had the "romance" with Marie.  He had a brother? I didn't think he did.....wasn't there a thread with the list of guards somewhere? I just searched but couldn't find it...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 01:07:03 PM
Quote

Or someone acting like AN...


So that could be because she was deliberately acting, or because she was delusional/paranoid. So we still can't tell!  ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: CuriousOne on February 07, 2005, 01:24:00 PM
Quote
For those who want to dig around and get the answer before I do, start with the following:

http://www.rootsweb.com/~polwgw/kujaw.html

look under the words:  Pomerania-Kasubia, Wladyslawowo

We'll be able to find the small village of Bororwihlas once we nail down the general area.

AGRBear

PS  Here is just a sample of the number of names when using "soundex equivalents" [second one down the list given] that show how many ways one name can be spelled, and, type in Schanskowska:

http://surhelp.rootsweb.com/srchall.html

PSS  A Polish site:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~polwgw/polandgen.html

PSS Names of villages:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~polwgw/towns-b.html

Look for something similar to Bororwihlas like Borowiliec or _____ in Pozan' [Posen]

PSSS  Go to Mapquest, tpye in Wladyslawowo, Posen, Poland and you'll get a map of the area.  Finding Bororwihlas didn't work but at least you can see the general area.  I'll keep looking.
http://www.mapquest.com



I used the SOUNDEX that bear suggested.

>>This is a list of names that sound like or are near the spelling of Schanskowska that start with the letter S:
The following is a list of surnames found that are SOUNDEX equivalents of SCHANSKOWSKA (S522).




Yes
No
Surname
Count

SAN AGUSTIN
1

SAN JOSÉ
2

SAN SOUCI
1

SANASAC
1

SANASACK
1

SANCHAK
1

SANCHES
4

SANCHEZ
73

SANCHEZ CAMACHO
1

SANCHEZ CHAVEZ
1

SANCHEZ CUEVAS
1

SANCHEZ ECHAVARRIA
1

SANCHEZ FALCON
1

SANCHEZ FIGUEROA
2

SANCHEZ GUALFE
1

SANCHEZ HERNANDEZ
1

SANCHEZ INALFE
1

SANCHEZ MORALES
1

SANCHEZ NUÑEZ
1

SANCHEZ RIVERA
1

SANCHEZ ROMERO
1

SANCHEZ SANCHEZ
1

SANCHEZ VALENTIN
1

SANCHEZ-DE-NAVARRO
1

SANCHEZ-NUNEZ
1

SANCIC
1

SANGUSZKO
1

SANGUSZKOWICZ-KOSZYRSKI
1

SANGUSZKOWICZ-KOWELSKI
1

SANKKOJA
1

SANSIC
1

SANSOUCI
2

SANSOUCIE
2

SANSOUCY
1

SANSSOUCI
1

SANSSOUCIE
1

SAUNSOCI
1

SCHANKEWICZ
1

SCHENHSUSER
1

SCHIMKUS
2

SCHOENAICH-C
2

SCHOENAICH-CAROLATH
5

SCHOENSIEGEL
1

SCHÖNAICH-CAROLATH
2

SCKANGAST
1

SEMASIK
1

SENASAC
1

SENEGOGUE
1

SENESAC
2

SENSIG
1

SHANKES
1

SHAW_WAW_NAW_SE_GAY
1

SHEMKUS
2

SHIMKOIK
1

SHIMKOS
1

SHIMKOSKI
3

SHIMKUS
1

SHINY_GO_KE
1

SHONSEK
1

SIENKOWSKI
3

SIMACEK
1

SIMASEK
1

SIMCIC
1

SIMCICH
1

SIMCOCK
4

SIMCOCKE
1

SIMCOX
10

SIMECEK
2

SIMKUS
1

SIMSHAUSER
1

SIMZYK
1

SINCHUCK
1

SINCOCK
7

SINCOSKY
1

SINCOX
3

SINGSAAS
1

SMAGACZ
1

SMIGOSKI
1

SMISEK
2

SNIEGOWSKI
2

SNIEZAWSKI
1

SNNECUSKI
1

SOENICHSEN
1

SONNICHSEN
3

SONQUIST
2

SWANSICK
1

SWINKOWSKI
1

SYMICEK
1

SYNACEK
2

SZWANKOWSKI
1

SZYMASZEK
2

SZYMCZAK
2

SZYMUSIAK
1

SÁNCHEZ

Take a look at the Polish forms and set aside the Spanish, and other countries etc..  Example: SZWANKOWSKI

Curious One
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 02:02:29 PM
Quote

So that could be because she was deliberately acting, or because she was delusional/paranoid. So we still can't tell!  ::)


Ever feel like we are going in circles?   ::)

I wonder sometimes if Manahan, AA's husband, ever learned the truth, or if he died believing he was truly married to a Russian Grand Duchess?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 02:17:58 PM
Quote

Ever feel like we are going in circles?


Hey, what gave you that idea?  ;) ;D

Quote
I wonder sometimes if Manahan, AA's husband, ever learned the truth, or if he died believing he was truly married to a Russian Grand Duchess?


Well, frankly (and I know someone is going to accuse me of engaging in character assasination, but heck - I can express an opinion, can't I), I don't think Mr Manahan was playing with a full deck himself. What tips us off a little was the fact that he abducted his wife from a nursing home and took her on, what amounted to a police car chase. The poor woman was already in her eighties and demented, and needed a lot of care he couldn't provide.  Not long after they were caught and she was returned to a nursing home, she caught pneumoia and died, but is it a wonder really...  This is not exactly  "normal" behavior, is it...

P.S. I vaguely remember reading or hearing somewhere, that before he married her, Mr Manahan made AA sign some piece of paper swearing that she was indeed Grand Duchess Anastasia. If this is true, then we can only imagine what Mr Manahan was all about  ::)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 02:26:34 PM
Quote

Well, frankly (and I know someone is going to accuse me of engaging in character assasination, but heck - I can express an opinion, can't I), I don't think Mr Manahan was playing with a full deck himself. What tips us off a little was the fact that he abducted his wife from a nursing home and took her on, what was practically a police car chase. The poor woman was already in her eighties and demented, and needed a lot of care he couldn't provide.  Not long after they were caught and she was returned to a nursing home, she caught pneumoia and died, but is it a wonder really...  This is not exactly  "normal" behavior, is it...

P.S. I vaguely remember reading or hearing somewhere, that before he married her, Mr Manahan made AA sign some piece of paper swearing that she was indeed Grand Duchess Anastasia. If this is true, then we can only imagine what Mr Manahan was all about  ::)



Yes, I always wondered about him, myself, and think he was a tad bit "touched" as they say.  I think, judging by the postscript and things I've read about him, that he was in love with her myth and wanted to attach himself to it in some way.  She needed a caretaker, he needed to be a footnote to history.  

Or am I going to be accused of character assassination now?  :o
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 02:28:02 PM
Quote

Take a look at the Polish forms and set aside the Spanish, and other countries etc..  Example: SZWANKOWSKI


What, no "Sasnovski"?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 02:31:40 PM
Quote

Yes, I always wondered about him, myself, and think he was a tad bit "touched" as they say.  I think, judging by the postscript and things I've read about him, that he was in love with her myth and wanted to attach himself to it in some way.  She needed a caretaker, he needed to be a footnote to history.


I think he was a history professor at the local university, so he had a lot of interest in the subject to begin with. I doubt he would have married her otherwise, especially if that "swear in writing you are Anastasia before I marry you" story is true... I heard that it was a marriage of convenience anyway, as she needed a green card or something like that. Don't quote me on it, but I just remember picking this bit of info somewhere. He was a lot younger than her, something like 15-20 years...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 02:31:47 PM
I find it frightening how many names are soundex equivalents to Schanzkowska that are not the remotest bit Pole/Rus/Slavic names.  And how few on the list are actually anything like the names we have been kicking around the past few days.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 02:33:55 PM
Quote

I think he was a history professor at the local university, so he had a lot of interest in the subject to begin with. I doubt he would have married her otherwise, especially if that "swear in writing you are Anastasia before I marry you" story is true... I heard that it was a marriage of convenience anyway, as she needed a green card or something like that. Don't quote me on it, but I just remember picking this bit of info somewhere. He was a lot younger than her, something like 15-20 years...


This ties in with my general knowledge of the man as well.  Still, the high speed road chase at the end of her life just seems such a pathetic end to her high profile existence.  Especially as it indirectly led to her death.  I can't remember WHY he took her from the home.  Do you recollect?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 02:41:59 PM
Quote
... the high speed road chase at the end of her life just seems such a pathetic end to her high profile existence.  
 Well to give the man credit, it wasn't exactly a high speed chase  ;). But it kind of amounted to the same thing, as they were wanted and I believe he took her across the state line or something like that...

Quote
I can't remember WHY he took her from the home.  Do you recollect?

I can't remember for sure, but I think it had something to do with some delusion or other he had, or perhaps she had or they both had, and she asked him to take her out and he did it... I don't remember. Either way, there was absolutely no reason for handling it the way he did.

Also the fact that he allowed their house to deteriorate the way it did, with hundred of cats and trash, etc, does not say much for his state of mind either...

P.S. Of course I didn't know the man personally, all this information comes from reading things about him here and there, and from some documentaries I've seen.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 07, 2005, 02:47:35 PM
I read a bit on Manahan today, sounds a bit like an opportunist, a way to get his name forever in the history books..... His motives are questionable, as are  AA's, who married him to stay in the US.  Her visa had expired.

BTW, he left his fortune to a younger woman, evidently he was worth some money, the site I read said "millions", how true that is I don't know, but IF AA would ever be declared AN this woman has some sort of rights through the estate to cash in on it.  Bizzare, if you ask me.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 02:48:46 PM
Things really got worse for him after her death.  Someone else on the board posted that he ended up involved with a female con woman who took him for everything he had.  Such a sad end to a man who really did try to do his best for AA....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 02:50:09 PM
Quote
I read a bit on Manahan today, sounds a bit like an opportunist, a way to get his name forever in the history books..... His motives are questionable, as are  AA's, who married him to stay in the US.  Her visa had expired.

BTW, he left his fortune to a younger woman, evidently he was worth some money, the site I read said "millions", how true that is I don't know, but IF AA would ever be declared AN this woman has some sort of rights through the estate to cash in on it.  Bizzare, if you ask me.



Yeah, but would you have expected anything less?  ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 02:51:19 PM
 
Quote
..he ended up involved with a female con woman who took him for everything he had.  
 Was this his "heiress"?  ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 02:51:53 PM
Here's Dashkova's post on what happened to John.  There is a thread devoted to him on page 3.

Quote

Well regarded, but still considered a bit odd. Rested on his family laurels a lot, but we tend to do that in Virginia.  Manahan would like to have remarried -- a woman who was a true opportunist (wound up getting him to put his house in her name) and I'm not sure, but I think she wound up with his power of attorney as well.  He died alone and from what I've heard, pretty sad and miserable.

His would-be girlfriend had the house remodeled and lived there for some time. The neighbors *hated* her, for obvious reasons.  However, they were also not so thrilled with Anna Anderson, and most people I know in the area and region were not convinced of her claim whatsoever.

Not sure if the "girlfriend" (Althea Hurt) still lives there in the house or not, but she is still a practicing attorney (and married as well).  According to a friend of mine who recently had her do some legal work; her fees are high but she got good results.

Dashkova,
Writing just outside Charlottesville

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 02:55:25 PM
Well, the neigbors couldn't have been that upset with her if she cleaned up the property a little... Who knows what the story really was. Fact is, neither Mr Manahan, nor his wife, were exactly the epitomies of good sense and judgment...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 07, 2005, 02:57:50 PM
Late in life Anna married an American, Jack Manahan. When she died, Jack became her heir. Jack grew dotty in his dotage and before he died, he named as his heir a young woman believed, rightly or wrongly, to be a fortune hunter. She wasn't, but she showed great tenacity in fighting off challenges to Jack's will. By winning it all she came into enough wealth (millions) to pursue Romanov claims around the world for the rest of her life, should Anna Anderson be proven to be the genuine article. And this heir is a lawyer.

The above was from this site...I laughed when I reread it but thought I would post this...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 02:58:00 PM
Quote
Fact is, neither Mr Manahan, nor his wife, were exactly the epitomies of good sense and judgment...


Judging by her history, that goes without saying for AA....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 03:00:56 PM
Yes, the whole thing would be quite funny if it weren't so pathetically sad...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 03:12:14 PM
Quote
Late in life Anna married an American, Jack Manahan. When she died, Jack became her heir. Jack grew dotty in his dotage and before he died, he named as his heir a young woman believed, rightly or wrongly, to be a fortune hunter. She wasn't, but she showed great tenacity in fighting off challenges to Jack's will. By winning it all she came into enough wealth (millions) to pursue Romanov claims around the world for the rest of her life, should Anna Anderson be proven to be the genuine article. And this heir is a lawyer.

The above was from this site...I laughed when I reread it but thought I would post this...


Where exactly did you find this?  I haven't heard such a thing before....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Alexa on February 07, 2005, 03:47:31 PM
Quote

Not necessarily. If she didn't have this child in a hospital which often women didn't at that time, there wouldn't really be any record. Plus we don't know what name she may have used when she gave birth. But it is a fact that AA did give birth, since the physicians could tell during the examination. If the child lived or not, is another story. The child could have also been inofficially adopted, we just don't know... I don't think that records were kept as thoroughly back then, especially post war...


Birth registration all depends on what country you're talking about.  I can't say for certain, but from the research I"ve done it can be assumed that most Western countried required the documentation of a baby's birth by the end of WWI.  Some countries are much earlier (I think in England it goes back to the late 19th century).  In the US it's around WWI (depending on which state you're talking about).  If AA had a baby and it was delivered by a doctor, wether at home or in a hospital, then there is a chance that birth would have been recorded.  Two of my aunts and an uncle were born in Poland in the early to mid-1920's; all were born at home and all have Polish birth certificates.  But without knowing the name AA used, or which country it happened in, then it'd be impossible (or near enough so) to find.

Alexa
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 03:50:24 PM
Quote

But without knowing the name AA used, or which country it happened in, then it'd be impossible (or near enough so) to find.

Alexa


This was what I was thinking to, because of the sheer "unknown" factor of the AA case.  We don't know who she was or where she came from.  If she was FS, one would think there would be some way to find a record of a child's birth.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 04:18:11 PM
There was the famous composer Peter Tchaikovsky (1840-93).  Where there is one Tchaikovsky in Russia there is probably a dozen more and they need not be related.

So,  what do we know about AA's  Alexander Tchaikovsky?
1.  AA said he rescued her in a cart
2.  He had a brother named Serge
3.  AA doesn't recall very much of the trip to Romania to Bucharest...
4. AA recalled living for a time in a gardener's cottage on Svienti Voyevoda  [could have been Sfintii Voyevozi which is a street near the German embassy].
5.  He married AA in Bucharest.... in, maybe, a Romanov Catholic church..
6. Alexander Tchaikovsky was shot in the streets and AA believed he had been murdered by the Bolsheviks
7.  Serge T. , also, vanished...

The data above is Found on pps. 67-69  in Lovell's ANASTASA, THE LOSE PRINCESS.

I'll be back with the different spellings of Tchaikovsky.

Thanks Curious One for adding the Soundex list.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 04:22:29 PM
Quote

So,  what do we know about AA's  Alexander Tchaikovsky?
1.  AA said he rescued her in a cart
2.  He had a brother named Serge
3.  AA doesn't recall very much of the trip to Romania to Bucharest...
4. AA recalled living for a time in a gardener's cottage on Svienti Voyevoda  [could have been Sfintii Voyevozi which is a street near the German embassy].
5.  He married AA in Bucharest.... in, maybe, a Romanov Catholic church..
6. Alexander Tchaikovsky was shot in the streets and AA believed he had been murdered by the Bolsheviks
7.  Serge T. , also, vanished...

The data above is Found on pps. 67-69  in Lovell's ANASTASA, THE LOSE PRINCESS.



But Bear, we KNOW that AA was NOT AN.  Therefore, her detailed story of her "rescue" is probably a fairytale.  Isn't it handy that all the pertinent individuals in the story are dead?  

I am not at all convinced that there is any truth to this story....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 04:23:18 PM
Bear,

1. I believe that the Tchaikovskys that AA was talking about were Polish and not Russian.

2. What's the point of all this? Most likely these Tchaikovsky people didn't exist since we know that AA was not saved by them in Yekaterinburg since she was not Anastasia...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 04:24:17 PM
Denise, our posts musthave crossed and we both just posted almost the same thing  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 04:27:31 PM
Quote
Denise, our posts musthave crossed and we both just posted almost the same thing  :)


You know what they say about "great minds" Helen!!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 04:31:18 PM
Following data found on line at:  http://www.polishroots.org/surnames/surnames_35.htm

>>Having said that, I must tell you Tchaikovsky is not a Polish spelling; it makes no sense at all by Polish phonetics and orthographics. I recognize, of course, as the spelling of the name of the Russian composer Pyotr Ilich Tchaikovsky. That's a kind of Germanized or Frenchified rendering of the Russian form, which is written in Cyrillic. If you take the Cyrillic letters and turn them into English phonetic renderings, it comes out more like Chaikovsky. I recognize this as the name spelled Czajkowski by Poles. All these different spellings are pronounced the same, "chi-KOFF-skee," with the first syllable rhyming with "why." In other words, as different as these spellings look, they are all ways of writing the same name; they only look different because different languages write different sounds in different ways.

Czajkowski comes from the noun czajka, "lapwing" (a kind of bird), but more specifically it would refer to the name of a place, something like Czajki or Czajkow or Czajkowa or Czajkowo; and those place names, in turn, would come from the word for "lapwing." Typically a place would get a name like this either because it was "the place of the lapwings," an area where these birds were abundant, or because the place was owned or founded by someone named Czajko or something similar. So Czajkowski means "one from the place of the lapwings" or "one from the place of Czajko or Czajek, etc." In some cases names beginning Czaj- can also derive from the verb czajac', "to lie in wait for," but I think most of the time Czajkowski would refer to a place named for the lapwing. Unfortunately, there are a number of places in Poland with names this surname could derive from, so without detailed info on a specific family, there's no way to know which place the name refers to in their case.<<
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 04:33:12 PM
Quote
Following data found on line at:  http://www.polishroots.org/surnames/surnames_35.htm

>>Having said that, I must tell you Tchaikovsky is not a Polish spelling; it makes no sense at all by Polish phonetics and orthographics. I recognize, of course, as the spelling of the name of the Russian composer Pyotr Ilich Tchaikovsky. That's a kind of Germanized or Frenchified rendering of the Russian form, which is written in Cyrillic. If you take the Cyrillic letters and turn them into English phonetic renderings, it comes out more like Chaikovsky. I recognize this as the name spelled Czajkowski by Poles. All these different spellings are pronounced the same, "chi-KOFF-skee," with the first syllable rhyming with "why." In other words, as different as these spellings look, they are all ways of writing the same name; they only look different because different languages write different sounds in different ways.

Czajkowski comes from the noun czajka, "lapwing" (a kind of bird), but more specifically it would refer to the name of a place, something like Czajki or Czajkow or Czajkowa or Czajkowo; and those place names, in turn, would come from the word for "lapwing." Typically a place would get a name like this either because it was "the place of the lapwings," an area where these birds were abundant, or because the place was owned or founded by someone named Czajko or something similar. So Czajkowski means "one from the place of the lapwings" or "one from the place of Czajko or Czajek, etc." In some cases names beginning Czaj- can also derive from the verb czajac', "to lie in wait for," but I think most of the time Czajkowski would refer to a place named for the lapwing. Unfortunately, there are a number of places in Poland with names this surname could derive from, so without detailed info on a specific family, there's no way to know which place the name refers to in their case.<<


Bear, I am befuddled.  Where are we going with this?  :(
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 04:35:20 PM
Various spellings:

Tchrnichovsky
Tczernigov
Tchaikovsky
Tchaikovitzky
Tchaikowska
Tchagovetz

Chaikovsky
[following same spelling with out the "T"]

Czajkowsky

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 04:40:09 PM
Helen asked for it this morning and I said I'd get back to her on this.

Let me go back and pull her post forward.

Quote
Bear, is "Tchaikovski" or "Chaikovski", one of the names that has the same origin (root) as "Schankowsky"? It sounds a lot like it, certainly at least as much as "Sasnovski" sounds like "Schankowski". Just a thought...


AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 07, 2005, 04:41:23 PM
That makes sense, then.  Thanks for catching me up... :D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 07, 2005, 04:53:13 PM
Quote
Helen asked for it this morning and I said I'd get back to her on this.

Let me go back and pull her post forward.


AGRBear


Yes, I did ask, thank you for following up, Bear. The reason I asked about it was because I was thinking that if AA was FS, she may have subsciously came up with a name that sounded like her own. Just a theory, doesn't really matter that much...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 07, 2005, 05:12:07 PM
Quote

Yes, I did ask, thank you for following up, Bear. The reason I asked about it was because I was thinking that if AA was FS, she may have subsciously came up with a name that sounded like her own. Just a theory, doesn't really matter that much...


I always guessed it was because she picked it like Jan Brady did George Glass. Alexander was a popular Russian name, probably the first to come to mind, and Tchiakovsky, the name of the famous composer, would be typical things to come to mind when asked to invent the name of a Russian guy on the spot.

Tchiakovsky may be a Polish name but it's more associated with Russia because of the composer, I think.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 05:18:05 PM
Close to the top of this page [17] is my post #401 about the name not being Polish but Russian.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 07, 2005, 05:21:07 PM
Thanks Penny.

Do you know what happen to the following cousins:

Alexander and Konstantin Ukraintsev (These cousins knew the Romanovs from the Crimea, where they had played with Michael Alexandrovich and Olga Alexandrovna.)


AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 07, 2005, 07:49:28 PM
Does anyone find it odd, that so many pairs of brothers were involved in guarding the IF.

I am just fielding a question here, how would this bit of minutiae leaked out to Berlin and gotten to AA, newspapers?, magazines?  word of mouth?  Remember that she was in Dalldorf from Feb 1920 on. I am sure it was possible that news travelled, but this type of news?

Did Sokolov's dossier or report deal with rumors of escape as I can't remember whether or not it did.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 07, 2005, 08:48:33 PM
Quote
Does anyone find it odd, that so many pairs of brothers were involved in guarding the IF.




Not really because in the old days people joined and served together. These days, people joining could be sent anywhere. In the US Civil War, all regiments were usually from the same town or county, and in some battles with high casualties they lost much of the population of a town.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 09:43:17 AM
Quote
Close to the top of this page [17] is my post #401 about the name not being Polish but Russian.


Yes, the name is Russian, but didn't AA claim that her Tchaikovskys were Polish? Anyway, it doesn't really matter because chances are these people did not exist.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 09:47:44 AM
Quote

Yes, the name is Russian, but didn't AA claim that her Tchaikovskys were Polish? Anyway, it doesn't really matter because chances are these people did not exist.


Thank you Helen--that has been my point on this name quest all along...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 10:09:00 AM
Quote

Thank you Helen--that has been my point on this name quest all along...


Yeah, this name thing seems to have gotten out of hand, now I am sorry I asked. All I wanted to know was if "Tchaikovski" and "Schankowski" had the same root because they sound alike, and if AA may possibly have used it because of that, but somehow it exploded into a dissertation on Russian names!  As I said before, it really doesn't matter where the name "Tchaikovksy"came from...  ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 08, 2005, 10:38:33 AM
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  As I said before, it really doesn't matter where the name "Tchaikovksy"came from...  ::)


Well I know where AA's "Tchiakovskys" came from, her own mind  :P There is no evidence they ever existed in Russia or Romania, and this is a BIG hole in her story.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 10:48:14 AM
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... and this is a BIG hole in her story.



One of many!!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 08, 2005, 10:57:07 AM
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Well I know where AA's "Tchiakovskys" came from, her own mind  :P There is no evidence they ever existed in Russia or Romania, and this is a BIG hole in her story.


What do you mean there were no "Tchiakovskys" in Russia or Romania?  Of course there were.  Didn't any of you notice what I wrote about them being from Russia and that there were many families.... It may be that researchers just haven't discovered the right family.   Let me go get a photo from another thread which shows you the huge migr. that was occuring at the time.   There were many "unknowns" traveling with the masses.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/refugees2.jpg)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 11:08:07 AM
Bear, may I point out yet again, that even if there were slews of Tchaikovskys in Russia and elsewhere, it really doesn't matter, because we already know that AA's story about those particular Tchaikovkys was not based in reality. So we really don't need to discuss anymore about these Tchaikovskys, unless you have some particular new theory about their involvement (which you probably do  ;)  ::))...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 11:08:15 AM
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What do you mean there were no "Tchiakovskys" in Russia or Romania?  Of course there were.  Didn't any of you notice what I wrote about them being from Russia and that there were many families.... It may be that researchers just haven't discovered the right family.   Let me go get a photo from another thread which shows you the huge migr. that was occuring at the time.   There were many "unknowns" traveling with the masses.



AGRBear


I believe what Annie was referring to was that this particular family of Tchaikovskys was never located.  Despite AA giving us this story of 2 guards named Tchaikovsky from Ipatiev house, no one has been located to match her description.  But why should there be?  She wasn't AN and was never at Ipatiev house to be rescued...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 11:13:28 AM
Helen, it looks like we did it again!  ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 11:15:02 AM
Yep, great minds at work  ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 08, 2005, 11:26:17 AM
So,  let's get back to the Schanskowska family.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 11:30:18 AM
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So,  let's get back to the Schanskowska family.

AGRBear



Now THAT'S a plan, Bear.   :D

Does anyone remember if their is a source that talks about the birth order of the children?   I know somewhere I read that the only child with no definitive birth recorded was Gertrude.  

Lord help me, but I don't remember where.  :(
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 08, 2005, 11:31:12 AM
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Bear, may I point out yet again, that even if there were slews of Tchaikovskys in Russia and elsewhere, it really doesn't matter, because we already know that AA's story about those particular Tchaikovkys was not based in reality. So we really don't need to discuss anymore about these Tchaikovskys, unless you have some particular new theory about their involvement (which you probably do  ;)  ::))...


That is EXACTLY what I meant!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 08, 2005, 11:34:37 AM
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I believe what Annie was referring to was that this particular family of Tchaikovskys was never located.  Despite AA giving us this story of 2 guards named Tchaikovsky from Ipatiev house, no one has been located to match her description.  But why should there be?  She wasn't AN and was never at Ipatiev house to be rescued...


Hey I just saw this, LOL you do both think alike (and a little like me too I guess!)

Okay now back to FS's family!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 11:37:15 AM
I am not sure if the birth order of the Schankowski children matters as much as establishing their maternal relationship. Did Gertrude and FS have the same mother or not, and if not, what is the evidence of that? And I mean some sort of official evidence, not "the nephew of the grandmother said this to someone" -  otherwise it becomes a "broken telephone" type of information...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 11:44:33 AM
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I am not sure if the birth order of the Schankowski children matters as much as establishing their maternal relationship. Did Gertrude and FS have the same mother or not, and if not, what is the evidence of that? And I mean some sort of official evidence, not "the nephew of the grandmother said this to someone" -  otherwise it becomes a "broken telephone" type of information...


Well, it is kind of related.  If Gertrude is OLDER than one o the kids from the first marriage, then we know she and FS do not share a mom.  Likewise, if she is younger than FS but older than Felix, they have the same mom.

With a lack of marriage records, I was thinking this is the best we can do for now. 

And I really would like to know if FS dad died soon after his second marriage or did he really marry a third time?  My sources conflict here.  Also, Bear's chart suggests this as well.  

Perhaps he died shortly after the third marriage?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 08, 2005, 11:57:12 AM
Since I'm always told that AA's DNA matches Karl Maucher's then it means they are related through the mother's line.  The mother, whom ever she was, was not born a Schanskowskis.  She wedded one.


In order to find the name of the mother and her maiden name, we have to find Oscar Schanskowski in the records of marriages.

The spelling of the name "Schanskowski" is, therrefore, important.

And,  if we can discover more names of the children and about when they were born,  then we have more places to look for records.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 12:05:27 PM
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Now you are requiring concrete, absolute, "official" proof of the structure of the Schanzkowsky family.  In order to give you that, I would have to scan in documents, and post them here -- something which I will NOT do, because, quite frankly, Greg and I have worked hard to earn the money for  the search to find this evidence.  And even then, if I did post the documents, what would be the chances of you questioning their authenticity?  


Penny, what kind of evidence are you talking about that you have, like a copy of Gertrudes' birth certificate or baptismal papers? Of course you don't have to scan it for us, just tell us that you saw the birth certificate or some other paper... that would be sufficient, and we will of course believe you. But when you talk about things like, "the grandmother, or maybe the aunt, said something about that to someone else", that's not really evidence... If you actually have copies of the papers, or have seen them, then that's all it will take, and there is no need to prove anything else.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 08, 2005, 12:07:42 PM
I think Penny  has told us she has information.  And, she has told us that she'd share it with us when the right time came.

She pointed out that my chart 2 was close.

But that wasn't enough.

I think we're proving her lightbulb story over and over on this subject.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 12:07:46 PM
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Since I'm always told that AA's DNA matches Karl Maucher's then it means they are related through the mother's line.  The mother, whom ever she was, was not born a Schanskowskis.  She wedded one.

Since mtDNA is passed through the maternal line and not paternal, of course the mother wouldn't be a Schankowski... She did not need to have the same last name, that is irrelevant, what she needs to have is some sort of a maternal relationship, that's all...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 12:13:48 PM
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What I don't get is why you people who have it all figured out keep posting in these threads.  I mean, if it's all done and dusted for you, then why keep on about it?

That's because we have a lot of free time on our hands and we like to discuss this topic  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Sian_Turner on February 08, 2005, 12:17:38 PM
Penny, I wondered whether it would be possible to establish, from the list of guards, whether any of them had siblings?  This may be trying to take things one step too far but was there a census document done for Ekaterinburg at any point close to 1918 that you know of.

Also, and I'm not sure if was yourself and Greg who raised this in FOTR, but I believe there was a dental "pecularity" noticed in the women and I wondered if there was any further information on this.

Thanks for any further info.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 12:19:37 PM
Sian-Turner, good to see you back!  :D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 12:45:02 PM
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I think Penny  has told us she has information.  And, she has told us that she'd share it with us when the right time came.

She pointed out that my chart 2 was close.

But that wasn't enough.

I think we're proving her lightbulb story over and over on this subject.

AGRBear


Bear, I want to point out that there is a difference between "speculation" and real "evidence". We can all speculate to our heart's content, as long as we don't claim that what we are speculatingabout is real evidence. When we speculate, we don't need to provide any official proof to anyone, as long as we admit that what we have is speculation. As soon as we start saying that the information we have is "evidence", it becomes a whole different ball game. Then we need official proof, otherwise this information will have to remain "speculation".  As wonderful as your Chart 2 was, I personally can't consider it "evidence", I am sorry,  unless someone says that they saw official documents that confirm it.  No one seems to have seen any documents that confirm any of it (correct me if I am wrong, someone). We are going by what someone said to someone else at some point and time. I don't think something like this would be accepted in court as evidence, I believe they would ask for something more official, such as a birth certificate, marriage certificate, etc. People say a lot of things that may or may not be accurate, and we need something to collaborate. Just you question the "Yurovsky note", even though it is testimony, so everyone else can question things like this. We can talk about this stuff, speculate about it, no problem, but I don't think we can accept it no questions asked, unless the forementioned evidence comes into play to confirm it. This is my personal take on it and I don't think it is asking for too much. Others may accept, face value, what someone said at some point. That's fine too, but I should have the right to question it if I don't feel it is sufficient evidence...  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 08, 2005, 12:54:18 PM
Who am I  ::) to tell anyone to not speculate  ;D  since I seem to do this a lot  8)

This is how Penny feels:

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...[in part]....

....Now you are requiring concrete, absolute, "official" proof of the structure of the Schanzkowsky family.  In order to give you that, I would have to scan in documents, and post them here -- something which I will NOT do, because, quite frankly, Greg and I have worked hard to earn the money for  the search to find this evidence.  And even then, if I did post the documents, what would be the chances of you questioning their authenticity?  Pretty high, I think...
....


So, what I was saying,  we're going to have to wait for "offical" proof.  She's already ready given us hints.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 12:56:48 PM
I agree Helen.  The closest thing we will be getting to evidence will be Penny and Greg's book (when is the release date set for, Penny?).  THey have been able to look at the documents we are looking for, and can source them.  

I think that it is important to ask these questions, but unfortunately none of us are in a position to do primary document research at the moment.  It is important to say, we KNOW XXXX because document XYZ shows it to be true, and it is corroberated by ABC.....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 12:57:36 PM
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Who am I  ::) to tell anyone to not speculate  ;D  since I seem to do this a lot  8)

AGRBear


I feel your pain, Bear!  ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 01:38:12 PM
I have absolutely no problem waiting for official proof, but until we have it I feel that we are allowed to ask questions and discuss this subject. Aren't we?  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 01:49:29 PM
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...surely the favorable testimony of Grand Duke Andrei "cancels out" the unfavorable testimony of Olga Alexandrovna?  


Yes, absolutely! This is why I say we need concrete evidence, like a birth certificate, whenever possible, so as there are no questions as to who said what, when and whether they were lying, mistaken or whatever. I have always said this and I will continue to say it. We don't have to agree on this point, this is just the way I see it, but not everyone has to see it the same way... But because I see it that way, I voice my opinion about it. It has nothing to do with you personally, Penny - I would feel this way with anyone whose evidence I thought was not sufficient for a given case. If I can't make up my mind based on certain things and would like to see more concrete evidence, then this is something I should be able to explore and talk about.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 08, 2005, 01:50:49 PM
Also remember what Penny said, history is not a mathematical equation.  You can't rule out testimony, each affadavit is a piece of the puzzle.

Look through Kurth's book and the testimony given by different people.  Just the differences in physical description, bearing, attitude, manner.  This should be enough to make anyone scratch their head.

My own particular family conundrum was solved when the last living daughter-in-law of my great great grandfather, agreed to tell me what she knew.  She said it was 1917, and she and her father in law were walking through a field, he was telling her about his early life, how his father was drug from their home by the confederates, how his mother buried her iron wash tub, and that somehow they ended up with her keeping house for a man.  She had a child by him, even though they never married.   She died, and he raised her son & their son as brothers.  

Then the son they had together was murdered abt 1900, and the father was murdered in 1917.

What my great grandmother & her siblings told their children was that this man brought their father from France and he was an orphan, this story stuck & resonated in the family for 70 years or more until Aunt Clara told me the whole story one hot August afternoon. She said much like the afternoon she & Grandpa walked through the field to the unmarked graves of his mother & half brother.  She had never even told her own children or grandchildren most of the story that she told me.  When I asked her why?  She said NO ONE had ever asked the questions I did.
My grandmother even told me the story about her Grandpa coming from France, she is now 90, and is amazed at what I have found.

So I think I use this as an example that somewhere in all of these affadavits and stories lies the truth, or a part of the truth.  We can't blame Penny for not telling us all she knows, or what they have found, because they have a contract with the publisher.

We just have to keep searching and keep the dialogue going.  Just my opinion...

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 03:08:59 PM
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Look through Kurth's book and the testimony given by different people.  Just the differences in physical description, bearing, attitude, manner.  This should be enough to make anyone scratch their head.



Michael, this was exactly my point - yes, look at all the testimonies that contradict each other. This is why I say that it is difficult to trust them. This is why I would like additional, corroborative evidence - in addition to testimonies. I am not sure why it's an issue that I ask for that...   ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 03:32:23 PM
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Michael, this was exactly my point - yes, look at all the testimonies that contradict each other. This is why I say that it is difficult to trust them. This is why I would like additional, collaborative evidence - in addition to testimonies. I am not sure why it is an issue that I ask for that...   ???


Helen, that collaboration may not exist in the way you are asking for it.  One thing we need to remember about all those testimonies is that they are all from individuals.  Each person probably saw in AA what they expected to see, based on prior expectations and experiences.  

This case is now largely sunjective from our standpoint, as so many people who knew AA and were there to experience what happened are DEAD.  

All we can hope for is to find a way to reconcile these testimonies into a cognizent whole.  To truly find out WHO AA was, whether FS, a Cheka agent or just a woman who had a sad past and rebuilt a new identity from the Romanov tragedy, we need to look at both the subjective and the few objectyive sources we have.  It seems impossible right now to me, but I am enjoying the company I have on the quest!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 08, 2005, 03:34:02 PM
Helen, I dont think that there is anything wrong at all with asking for more information.  I think the perplexing issues in this case in particular demand that of us. ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 08, 2005, 03:36:01 PM
I like to start with the testimony of the Dalldorf nurses & staff.  Then Felix, and the Wingenders.  All very key in my opinion to describing the differences between AA & FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 03:41:45 PM
Are we working from the testimony cited in Peter Kurth's book?  Or are you cross referencing it with another book.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 03:42:34 PM
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Helen, I dont think that there is anything wrong at all with asking for more information.  I think the perplexing issues in this case in particular demand that of us. ::)


Yes, I agree... And this is why I ask. In any case, we need all of the information, including the testimonies, but also documents to support the testimonies. I am sure there is a way to get copies of the birth and marriage certificates, so why not try to get them? That way we can really have a rock solid case, one way or another.

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One thing we need to remember about all those testimonies is that they are all from individuals.  Each person probably saw in AA what they expected to see, based on prior expectations and experiences.  


Actually, I wasn't talking about AA this whole time, I was just asking for some sort of documented evidence about FS's and Gertrude's mother... Sorry, I didn't make that clear  :)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 03:45:35 PM
This is what I was referring to this whole time  :):

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Penny, what kind of evidence are you talking about that you have, like a copy of Gertrudes' birth certificate or baptismal papers? Of course you don't have to scan it for us, just tell us that you saw the birth certificate or some other paper... that would be sufficient, and we will of course believe you. But when you talk about things like, "the grandmother, or maybe the aunt, said something about that to someone else", that's not really evidence... If you actually have copies of the papers, or have seen them, then that's all it will take, and there is no need to prove anything else.



Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 03:49:14 PM
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Actually, I wasn't talking about AA this whole time, I was just asking for some sort of documented evidence about FS's and Gertrude's mother... Sorry, I didn't make that clear  :)



OK--a shift in gears, again!  I agree that we will need to see something eventually.  But, as I mentioned earlier, unless one of us can get into a Polish primary recoirds archive, the next available source will probable be Greg and Penny's book as they seem to have some info.  But again, even the FS testimony from multiple people goes back into that subjective realm.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 04:00:21 PM
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... even the FS testimony from multiple people goes back into that subjective realm.


Yes, exactly, subjective realm. This is why I would like to see something more objective when it comes to the "two mothers" issue, something along the lines of a birth record. Maybe someone will be able to get it somehow... I am not saying I don't believe this can be the case, I just would really like to see something like that to be completely sure (or for someone else to see it, I would take their word for it!  :))
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 08, 2005, 04:04:05 PM
Carl Maucher could clear this up once and for all. Surely he can't be that inaccessible if Nova talked to him.

Helen, in the Nova special, didn't he seem to talk like it was a fact AA was his auntie?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 08, 2005, 04:15:10 PM
Remember Michael G.'s story?

Karl may think he knows the answer but he may not know the answer either.

Always coming up with stuff that that   8)...

By the way, it would be interesting to note when Karl's mother was born.....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 04:18:05 PM
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Helen, in the Nova special, didn't he seem to talk like it was a fact AA was his auntie?


The only thing the narrator said in the Nova documentary was that this was FS's maternal grand nephew, and explained how mtDNA is inherited through the maternal side, but they didn't seem to make a big issue out of it one way or another. Then they just drew his blood and that was it. He didn't say anything on the show, I don't even think he speaks English. I have to watch it again and see exactly what they said, but I don't think too much...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 04:21:22 PM
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Remember Michael G.'s story? Karl may think he knows the answer but he may not know the answer either.


Exactly. This is why I would like to see evidence like marriage or birth certificate. At least that would be a little more conclusive than family stories that no one may be sure of. Thanks for helping me make my point, Bear  ;) .
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 08, 2005, 04:56:22 PM
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 The older women in the family -- his mother, Felix's daughter, etc., -- are the keepers of the family history.


Penny, if Karl Maucher's mother is still alive, or was 10 years ago when they did the DNA tests, why didn't they just use her blood instead of Karl's? This way they could have also been able to verbally confirm the relationship, at least what she thought she knew about it, between her own mother Gertrude and FS. Why did they decide to use Karl's blood sample for this, if he didn't even want much to do with the case? It would have made more sense to have used her, if she was still alive at the time...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 05:53:49 PM
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You know, I don't know the answer to that, though I have wondered.  I've also wondered just who exactly the old woman was -- she seemed quite a bit too old to be Karl's mother.  

Gertrude Schanzkowska married and had a daughter called Margaretta, who had a daughter called Gertrude.  So was that old woman Margaretta, GS's daughter?  Or Gertrude II, GS's granddaughter?  Either way, it seems to me that it would be better to choose someone more closely related -- a daughter or granddaughter rather than a grandson or great-grandson.  Probably it wouldn't really matter though.  Maybe she just didn't want to do it?


I suppose it was possible that she might have been ill, or in some other way unfit to have her blood drawn.  Or, as you say Penny, maybe she just didn't want to do it.  Maybe because it was going to be televised?

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 08, 2005, 06:42:06 PM
The attitude within the family of FS may be that the notariety of the case shames them, and the older family members may want no part of it, which Karl Maucher, may have decided to participate in the testing to try and end the speculation once and for all.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 08, 2005, 06:51:37 PM
I want to state something about those affadavits, when I go to interview people on the family history, and talk to them I take notes, sometimes a miniature cassette, sometimes video, it depends on the person.  Also I rely on memory, in some cases when the encounter is sudden and I don't have those things with me.  BUT,
sometimes I am suprised at how two different people in the same family describe the same event.  I could give tedious examples, but I won't, I'll save you all from being bored with my family history, but I am finding similar issues here.

All of these people, the nurses in Dalldorf, Felix, Gertrude, the Wingenders, et al.  All talked about a person whom we know varies widely in behaviour & in
some ways cleanliness, bearing, etc. from one extreme to the other, and it is almost like they are describing 2 totally different people.  

Since the nurses didn't have ANY expectations on who she was at the time she was brought in, and remember she was there for 2 years, their affadavits to me are probably the most unbiased as they had no interest in the case one way or the other.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 08, 2005, 07:21:18 PM
Quote

Since the nurses didn't have ANY expectations on who she was at the time she was brought in, and remember she was there for 2 years, their affadavits to me are probably the most unbiased as they had no interest in the case one way or the other.



This is a great point.  I will have to go over there testimony a bit more closely...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 08, 2005, 07:30:07 PM
Jeremy is looking for Carl, and he speaks several languages. I hope he will be able to talk to him.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: stepan on February 09, 2005, 09:00:53 AM
I think it would be a good idea to track down the film-maker Julian Nott. It was he who supplied the bloodtest from Carl Maucher which Peter Gill used. This according to Klier and Mingay´s book. I remember when I  saw Carl in this video film "Anastasia dead or Alive" that he resembled Anna anderson as a young woman in photos from the 20´s. Ofcourse it´s my personal impression but it´s interesting.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Malenkaya on February 09, 2005, 03:09:09 PM
This question just came to me, and I don't recall reading anything about this before.

When AA was examined, doctors determined she had given birth to a child.  Anna herself had a story to explain this, but how do you explain it if she was Franziska?

I didn't think FS was missing long enough (before AA surfaced, at least) to have had a child.  Did the family ever make mention of FS having a child?  If FS disappeared and then surfaced as AA shortly after, obviously there was no child born during that time.  Did anyone in FS's family ever say anything to suggest she had a child?  I believe it was Doris Wingender who was FS's landlady for a while - did she ever make mention that FS had a child?  I know there are cases when women have hidden the fact they were pregnant, but this was a working woman who, it seems, didn't live alone.  It does seem someone would know if she had a baby.

If the answer to all of the above is no, than how is it explained away that Anna Anderson had at least one child, while it seems FS never did?  This would be a piece of medical evidence that seems to suggest AA may not have been FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Elisabeth on February 09, 2005, 03:32:21 PM
What a fantastic question! You have really thrown the field wide open with this one, Malenkaya! I'm surprised no one has thought to ask this before. But sometimes it takes a stroke of genius to state what should have been obvious to us all! ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Malenkaya on February 09, 2005, 03:43:05 PM
Quote
What a fantastic question! You have really thrown the field wide open with this one, Malenkaya! I'm surprised no one has thought to ask this before. But sometimes it takes a stroke of genius to state what should have been obvious to us all! ;)


Thanks.  In all the years I've been following this case, this is the first time I ever thought of it.  

I do understand it's possible FS did have a child.  The more I thought about it I thought maybe that was why she disappeared.  Maybe she was ashamed she was pregnant, or knew it would shame her family, so she decided to disappear.  But it takes 9 months to have a baby.  Even if she waited until she started to show before staging her own disappearance, she would have still had to be unaccounted for at least a few months.  I'm just not sure there was enough time between FS's disappearance and AA's appearance in Berlin.  And if it couldn't have happened then, it must have happened before she disapperared.  At which point, someone should have known this woman had a child.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Elisabeth on February 09, 2005, 03:48:57 PM
Quote
I do understand it's possible FS did have a child.  The more I thought about it I thought maybe that was why she disappeared.  Maybe she was ashamed she was pregnant, or knew it would shame her family, so she decided to disappear.  But it takes 9 months to have a baby.  Even if she waited until she started to show before staging her own disappearance, she would have still had to be unaccounted for at least a few months.  I'm just not sure there was enough time between FS's disappearance and AA's appearance in Berlin.  And if it couldn't have happened then, it must have happened before she disapperared.  At which point, someone should have known this woman had a child.


Please, can you refresh our memory? When did Franziska supposedly disappear, and when was Anna Anderson retrieved from the canal?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Abby on February 09, 2005, 04:19:03 PM
FS disappeared  Feb. 27 1920 (or that's when the report was filed)
and Anna Anderson was pulled from the canal on Feb. 17 1920.


This is what Annie wrote on the 'The Schanzkowska Family" thread:



Ian Lilburn told me that during the trial, the issue of a pregnancy did arise, and Doris Wingender was asked if FS had been Pregnant while in the Wingender household.  Her response was what he called "middle-class outrage" at the idea that she and her mother and sister would have housed a fallen woman in their residence.  According to the German court system, testimony is freely given, and a witness is only asked to swear an oath if the panel of judges think he or she is lying, or if the piece of evidence is particularly vital to one side or the other.  Doris Wingender was not asked to take an oath until 1963.  At that time, even though the court "really didn't take the Schanzkowska business very much to heart" (Ian Lilburn in Peter), Judge Petersen was asked to administer the oath to Doris by Attorney Wollmann.  "She's either going to perjure herself, and I'm going to prove it, or she's going to have to retract."  Wollmann led her through the whole Schanzkowska story, then demanded that the judges administer the oath. Doris resisted strenuously, claiming that she had the flu and needed to have her pulse taken.  There was arguing back and forth between Wollmann and the judges whether the oath-taking could wait until she was feeling better, and during this time, Doris slipped out of the courtroom and never came back.  

So all of the Wingender testimony is unsworn, including the "middle-class outrage" over the suggestion of FS' pregnancy.  However, given Franziska's known schedule, including doctors' visits and time in asylums, there is no period of time unaccounted for that is longer than six or eight weeks or so between 1916 and her disappearance in early 1920.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Malenkaya on February 09, 2005, 04:29:21 PM
Quote
FS disappeared  Feb. 27 1920 (or that's when the report was filed)
and Anna Anderson was pulled from the canal on Feb. 17 1920.


Does anyone know FS's living arrangements at the time of her disappearance?  I know it's not like today, when people (usually) report others as missing right away, so the fact it wasn't reported until after AA appeared doesn't mean that much, but I still wonder if she lived alone or with others at the time.  And if she did live with someone, what they had to say on the matter.

Quote
This is what Annie wrote on the 'The Schanzkowska Family" thread:

However, given Franziska's known schedule, including doctors' visits and time in asylums, there is no period of time unaccounted for that is longer than six or eight weeks or so between 1916 and her disappearance in early 1920.


This is what I wanted to know.  Basically, as far as what we can gather, it doesn't look like she could have "run off" and given birth to a child.  If she had a baby, someone would have known about it.

That said, it looks as though we may have medical evidence to contradict the DNA evidence that AA was FS.

Anastasia
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 09, 2005, 05:08:41 PM
Often times parents, a sister, aunt or uncle will take in a child born out of wedlock as their own. There need be no legal documents.  They just did it in those days.

I asked on the other thread, does anyone know what year Karl Maucher's mother was born?  She could have been FS's child. This isn't to start some terrible rumor.  I assume this speculation can be eliminated quickly.

However, if Karl's mother was FS's child, that certainly would answer a lot of questions.  

However, Penny tells us that there isn't a time period long enough for FS to have had a child so it would have had to be before 1915/1916 or until she vanished.  So how old would FS had been in 1913/14?  [Sorry I've forgotten the year FS was born].

AGRBear

PS  16 Dec 1896  Yes, she would have been old enough.  But does this not work either, Penny?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 09, 2005, 05:37:52 PM
This subject already came up on another thread, but of course there are so many AA/FS threads that I can't remember which one it was  ::)... My question about it was whether the doctors could tell upon the examination of a woman how long ago the child was born, i.e. was it recent (as in a few months) or was it several years prior to the examination. I don't think we ever came to any conclusion one way or another, but it would be interesting to find out...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 05:38:01 PM
FS was born in 1896, per Massie and Klier & Mingay....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 05:44:04 PM
Quote
My question about it was whether the doctors could tell upon the examination of a woman how long ago the child was born, i.e. was it recent (as in a few months) or was it several years prior to the examination. I don't think we ever came to any conclusion one way or another, but it would be interesting to find out...


So far all I have found in Peter's book is that upon examining her in Dalldorf, doctors found AA NOT to be a virgin.  Still looking.....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 06:35:09 PM
Let's all keep the dates straight, so we know which times we are talking about:   AA was pulled from the canal at 9:00 pm on 27 Feb. 1920.  NOT the 17th.

I am not sure when the Wingenders reported her as missing, the date as far as I can tell is not in Kurths book.  

Besides this is all being discussed on another thread, why not combine the 2?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 06:36:53 PM
I have not seen this particular piece, is it the NOVA program that others are talking about?


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 06:38:48 PM
Yes, that is the title of the Nova episode....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 06:40:33 PM
No, it was the 17th.  It was pushed to the 27th to reconcile with FS disappearance.  Peter Kurth, page 4 says Feb 17, 1920 was the date AA jumped into the canal.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 09, 2005, 06:45:48 PM
Quote

Does anyone know FS's living arrangements at the time of her disappearance?  I know it's not like today, when people (usually) report others as missing right away, so the fact it wasn't reported until after AA appeared doesn't mean that much, but I still wonder if she lived alone or with others at the time.  And if she did live with someone, what they had to say on the matter.


Since she didn't live near her family, and communications back then were not what they are today, it's not unusual they didn't notice she was gone for awhile. They probably didn't have contact every day anyway.



Quote
That said, it looks as though we may have medical evidence to contradict the DNA evidence that AA was FS.

Anastasia


Where ???

Oh and BTW the post above attributed to me was not by me, but it's interesting just the same!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 09, 2005, 06:50:47 PM
Quote
That said, it looks as though we may have medical evidence to contradict the DNA evidence that AA was FS.

Anastasia


Anastasia,

The DNA evidence never claimed that AA was definitely FS, it just showed that she was maternally related to Karl Maucher, FS's nephew. By "medical evidence", do you mean AA having given birth to a child?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 06:56:44 PM
Quote

Where ???



I think she means that if it is proven that FS never had a child, but there is proof that AA did have a child (which so far I have not) then there is a medical reason to believe that AA is not FS.  

As Helen states, the mtDNA still would show that AA is descended from the same maternal relative as FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Malenkaya on February 09, 2005, 07:15:25 PM
Quote

I think she means that if it is proven that FS never had a child, but there is proof that AA did have a child (which so far I have not) then there is a medical reason to believe that AA is not FS.  


Yes, that's exactly what I meant.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.  If AA had a child and FS never did, that bit of medical "evidence" would contradict the DNA.

I am not suggesting this proves AA was AN, just that it casts doubt over her being FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 09, 2005, 07:17:24 PM
I know I've seen several sources state that medical examiners said she'd had at least one child. I have heard that from examining the uterus a doctor can tell how many pregnancies a woman has had, and they said she had one. A doctor told  my Grandmother he could tell she'd had five children, but she lost one falling down the stairs when she was only 4 months along. So even if the baby was not full term they can still tell by the little spot where it was attached to the inside of the uterus. So I guess this means AA had a child.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 09, 2005, 07:18:32 PM
Quote

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.  If AA had a child and FS never did, that bit of medical "evidence" would contradict the DNA.

I am not suggesting this proves AA was AN, just that it casts doubt over her being FS.



Oh, okay. But can this be proven?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 09, 2005, 07:26:17 PM
Quote
... it casts doubt over her being FS.


Yes, I agree, if it can be conclusively shown that AA had a baby and FS didn't, then it definitely casts doubt on them being the same person. It may be a little difficult to prove the latter though, unless we can really account for all FS's time and make sure that no one gave false testimony - for whatever reason - about FS never have been pregnant (as in perhaps trying to protect her reputation, "shame" the family, etc.). This will be the difficult part...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 09, 2005, 07:29:36 PM
Good topic. To be honest, I would like to debate the topic of AA and AN, but it tends to go to personal attacks, so I really haven't indulged myself in those threads too much. However, this thread seems to be quite interesting.

Out of plain curiousity... If FS went missing on the 27 and AA was found on the 17th, then it seems that there isn't much to debate. However, it was said that, especially back then that it might have been a while before a missing persons report was made. Then, with that said, is there a possibility that she was missing for sometime, and it wasn't until maybe weeks passed before someone noticed?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 09, 2005, 07:37:51 PM
Who reported FS missing, BTW? Was it her family or was it one of the Wingenders? Maybe this was mentioned already, but I missed it, sorry.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 07:57:27 PM
Quote
Who reported FS missing, BTW? Was it her family or was it one of the Wingenders? Maybe this was mentioned already, but I missed it, sorry.


I missed this, too...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 08:02:18 PM
Sorry MY MISTAKE ;D It was the 17th according to the book  SORRY
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 08:04:49 PM
Quote
Sorry MY MISTAKE ;D It was the 17th according to the book  SORRY


Not a problem.  I noticed we are both reading it right now, so it was easy to reference.  I leave my copy by the computer!  ;D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 09, 2005, 08:07:52 PM
Quote
 I noticed we are both reading it right now, so it was easy to reference.  I leave my copy by the computer!  ;D


I should pull my copy out too. I read it once before, but it was a while ago and I can't remember anything. I am going to go find mine...

So does anyone know who reported Franziska missing on the 17 27th?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Malenkaya on February 09, 2005, 08:43:53 PM
Quote
So does anyone know who reported Franziska missing on the 17th?


FS was reported missing on the 27th.  The 17th was the day AA was pulled from the canal.  I don't have the answer to who reported FS as missing, and my quick look through The Riddle Of Anna Anderson didn't get me anywhere either.

Is it weird that not one of us knows this right off?  ???

And again, does no one know of FS's living arrangements at the time of her disappearance?

Anastasia
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 08:44:10 PM
You know I can't find a date FS was reported missing.
However in one of the earlier threads didn't Penny state something about Grossman being caught in July or Aug of the same year??
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Malenkaya on February 09, 2005, 08:46:03 PM
Quote
You know I can't find a date FS was reported missing.
However in one of the earlier threads didn't Penny state something about Grossman being caught in July or Aug of the same year??


A quick websearch told me he was caught in his apartment right after killing his last victim.  It was Aug 1921.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 08:53:04 PM
I am not sure of when Franziska was reported missing, but at the time of Grossman's capture, she was in Dalldorf, I believe she remained in Dalldorf Asylum/Sanitarioum from 1920 until sometime in 1922.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 09, 2005, 09:07:43 PM
Quote
I am not sure when the Wingenders reported her as missing, the date as far as I can tell is not in Kurths book.  
 


Michael, did you read in "The Riddle.." that the Wingenders reported her missing? Was she living with them at the time she went missing?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 09:09:45 PM
Yes, but I can't find an actual date that someone reported it to the police.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 09:17:06 PM
Massie, page 178

"The source for this scoop was a woman named Doris Wingender, who said that Franziska had been a lodger in her mother's home until her disappearance in March 1920."

Her testimony apparently was discredited when it was discovered that she was paid to come forward....

Klier & Mingay pg 105

It was during her time there that Anna's opponents produced evidence that she was actually a Polish factory worker named Franziska Schanzkowska, who had been reported missing in Berlin during March, 1920.  This aalegation was first made by a private detective, Martin Knopf, in the pay of the Duke of Hesse.  Anna's supporters noted wryly that his discovery took a few weeks, while the Berlin police had failed to make this connection over seven years.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Abby on February 09, 2005, 09:17:35 PM
Quote
Actually, Penny wrote this...  8)  

 



Whoops! Sorry Penny! :-[
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 09:33:13 PM
Klier & Mingay also make this interesting statement (sounds a bit like Bear's serial killer theory!!) pg 106

This discovery was countermanded by Harriet von Rathlef, who made the improbable assertion that the real Schanzkowska had been killed by a notorious criminal gang.  Harriet later retracted the charge.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 10:12:04 PM
I don't have Klier & Mingay's book nor Massie's ( I refuse to buy his).

However we know AA was pulled from canal Feb 1920 on the 17th at 9:00 pm.....

The Wingenders didn't report her missing to the police until March 1920.

Interesting.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 11:08:45 PM
Penny this does strike me as odd, that they waited so long to report her missing.  Perhaps she had a habit of being gone for periods of time, and they weren't worried at first.

However I was going to add about Doris Wingender accepting money from Nachtausgabe, but I wasn't sure what kind of can of worms I would be opening, but it did make me think of my statement on earlier thread to Annie, in which I say almost everyone involved seemed to have an agenda or a motive.  This goes for the GD of Hesse, Lord Mountbatten, etc....It just seems that you are presented with this at every twist & turn of this case.  Just my opinion
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 09, 2005, 11:10:38 PM
Malenkaya, we have been going through so much on these threads it is difficult at some point to remember what has been & not been discussed.  

However it was established at the time of her disappearance she was living with the Wingender family.
They reported her disappearance.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Sian_Turner on February 10, 2005, 06:44:05 AM
Malenkaya, well spotted!  In the words of Homer ..... Doh!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 08:10:44 AM
Quote
I don't have Klier & Mingay's book nor Massie's ( I refuse to buy his).



May I ask why you do not want Massie's book?  I have seen a few things in it that do disagree with Peter Kurth's presentation of AA, but overall it seems straightforwqard.  Of course, he slants his evidence in such a way to make it apparent that AA was FS, but leaves things out that may even out the score a bit.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 08:58:55 AM
Quote
I don't have Klier & Mingay's book nor Massie's ( I refuse to buy his).

However we know AA was pulled from canal Feb 1920 on the 17th at 9:00 pm.....

The Wingenders didn't report her missing to the police until March 1920.

Interesting.


Michael, I think in order to get as close to the truth as possible it is important to read allsources, not just the ones favorable to a certain theory. Somewhere in between them lies the truth, but you will not know it if you only stick to one side's take on it. I think both sides had alterior motives in this case, not just one or the other. This is very important to see.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 09:06:36 AM
Quote

Michael, I think in order to get as close to the truth as possible it is important to read allsources, not just the ones favorable to a certain theory. Somewhere in between them lies the truth, but you will not know it if you only stick to one side's take on it. I think both sides had alterior motives in this case, not just one or the other. This is very important to see.


Very true. I don't understand the animosity against Massie, he's an excellent and respected Romanov historian. Even if you don't like him, his work is accurate, and it's important to look at all sides. You will never get the entire truth sticking to those who favor the AA theory.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 10, 2005, 09:12:29 AM
I just find no reason to buy Massie's book. Klier & Mingay now that is another story.  I had actually never heard of them before, or their book.

I just feel about Massie's book's the way I feel about Summers & Mangolds "File On The Tsar"....Just MY opinion. ;D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Mgmstl on February 10, 2005, 09:13:34 AM
Annie, I don't favor the AA Theory...I didn't think that I would have to repeat that to you... ;D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 10, 2005, 09:14:19 AM
Quote

Very true. I don't understand the animosity against Massie, he's an excellent and respected Romanov historian. Even if you don't like him, his work is accurate, and it's important to look at all sides. You will never get the entire truth sticking to those who favor the AA theory.


VERY TRUE!  Read everything before you make any kind of conclusion if there is one we can make.  In this case,  we still don't know the answers.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 09:17:31 AM
Quote
... Of course, he slants his evidence in such a way to make it apparent that AA was FS, but leaves things out that may even out the score a bit.


I was wondering is anyone knows if any other Romanov historian (besides Peter Kurth) published anything that contradicts the belief that AA was FS? I don't think I came across any other published work that disagreed with this notion - all historians seem to have accepted that AA was FS. I don't mean to say that this proves anything one way or another, I was just curious if there is something like this out there right now.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 09:19:40 AM
Quote
I just feel about Massie's book's the way I feel about Summers & Mangolds "File On The Tsar"....Just MY opinion. ;D


Michael, I am curiuos as to why you say that?  ???  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 09:27:45 AM
Quote

I was wondering is anyone knows if any other Romanov historian (besides Peter Kurth) published anything that contradicts the belief that AA was FS? I don't think I came across any other published work that disagreed with this notion - all historians seem to have accepted that AA was FS. I don't mean to say that this proves anything one way or another, I was just curious if there is something like this out there right now.


What I was referring to is that if there is any doubts on the case being open and shut that FS was AA, he never brought them up.  Rather than saying the DNA points to AA being a maternal relative of FS, Massie says she WAS FS.  That kind of thing.  I just found it kind of misleading....

Maybe I am too used to our marvelous forum where we unearth ALL the evidence out there!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 10:10:14 AM
Quote

 Rather than saying the DNA points to AA being a maternal relative of FS, Massie says she WAS FS.  That kind of thing.  I just found it kind of misleading....


Well, Massie is not a scientist, but a historian. I don't really want to get into the same elaborate discussion on this thread too, but I will just say a few things about that. In history and other humanities, different evidence constitutes "proof" than in science. For example, if historically you are going to go by the DNA evidence alone, theoretically there is enough proof to say that AA was FS, as even by the most conservative statistics, chances are around 96% that AA was FS and about 4% that she may not have been. Depending on where additional evidence points to, it may increase and decrease these stats either way, but they will always be significantly in favor of her being FS rather than not, due to DNA evidence which is the most conclusive evidence here. For most "laypeople" this type of thing is enough of a proof, if they understand statistics, that is. In science, however, you still can't say that this has been definitely proven, because there is always that 0.00000000001% chance that it may not be so. And of course in science, there is no such thing as 100% chance, there will always be that really unlikely 0.00000000001%, no matter what... So this is why in science, you can never really use the word "proof" the way you can in "regular" life, even though you may have more than enough "proof" for something, theoretically. So technically it's ok that Massie said "she was FS", since his was not a scientific work...  ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 10:30:45 AM
Just to give an example of "real life" proof vs "science" proof. You run into a good friend on the street. The person looks like your friend, talks like your friend, walks like your friend, etc. You of course can be sure that this is your friend. You have your so called "proof" in your "real life" mind. But "scientifically" you don't have the proof of this, scientifically there is a chance that this person may not be this friend after all. Scientifically, you have to see it this way: "there is some very small chance that this friend may have an identical twin who was separated at birth and that no one knows about, so this person could be that long lost twin". Very unlikely of course, but still a very minute possibility that cannot be discounted. Of course it's ridiculous to think this way in real life, but in science you have to, and this is why you can never say that you are 100% sure about anything. This is just to explain what I meant above...  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 10, 2005, 10:42:02 AM
Ahhhh yes, the battle between author and publisher.

What Penny says is true.  The "slashing" of words to get the word count down can sometimes change the entire meaning of a sentence.   The author may not catch this error until long after the book has been published.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 10:50:59 AM
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Massie's work ought not to have said that AA was Franziska; more correctly it should have said "I believe she was Franziska"


Yes, you are right, Penny, he should have said that this was his personal belief based on whatever evidence it is that he based it on.  But this often happens in works that are not scientific publications, because it can. A really good example of this is the book you recommended "The Seven Daughters of Eve". The author, Brian Sykes, who is a scientist, states in this book that "AA was proven to be FS", which of course he shouldn't have said. And he never would have if he was publishing this in a scientific journal for instance. But because this was just a regular book, he could say it this way theoretically (if not ethically) and he did, even though this conjecture was his personal belief based on his knowledge of science. So this happens all the time, but not in scientific publications. This is what I meant before.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 10:54:08 AM
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 Historians are absolutely capable of being accurate and exacting in their work.  

BTW, I did not say that historians are not capable of being accurate and exacting in their work, of course they are. What I said was, the criteria for what constitutes "proof" is different between the two disciplines. There is no such thing as "proof" in science, while there is in other disciplines. I think you misconstrued what I said... there is no need to get confrontational at every little thing mentioned, we can all ask for clarifications if needed...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 10, 2005, 11:22:03 AM
Authors get defensive when the blames lands on them and it wasn't their fault, so give Penny some room on this subject  :)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 11:26:02 AM
Bear, I wasn't disputing any of this at all, but I think we were talking about different things. I was talking about general criteria for certain things, while Penny was talking about individual responsibilites or capabilities (I think  ???  ???)

Helen
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Abby on February 10, 2005, 11:26:50 AM
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Just to give an example of "real life" proof vs "science" proof. You run into a good friend on the street. The person looks like your friend, talks like your friend, walks like your friend, etc. You of course can be sure that this is your friend. You have your so called "proof" in your "real life" mind. But "scientifically" you don't have the proof of this, scientifically there is a chance that this person may not be this friend after all. Scientifically, you have to see it this way: "there is some very small chance that this friend may have an identical twin who was separated at birth and that no one knows about, so this person could be that long lost twin". Very unlikely of course, but still a very minute possibility that cannot be discounted. Of course it's ridiculous to think this way in real life, but in science you have to, and this is why you can never say that you are 100% sure about anything. This is just to explain what I meant above...  :)




This reminds me of those Visa check card commercials where the celebrity forgets his I.D. and they won't accept his card because he doesn't have proof that it is him! (Even though it is, of course, because the cashier sees him in the flesh!)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 11:35:25 AM
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This reminds me of those Visa check card commercials where the celebrity forgets his I.D. and they won't accept his card because he doesn't have proof that it is him! (Even though it is, of course, because the cashier sees him in the flesh!)


Well, Abby, it is even worse than that, because at least in the Visa commercial if he presents his ID they would believe him. In science, you would still think that there is some chance that this person is not who they say they are and that  a. the documents may be really good forgeries done by this evil twin or his allies or  b. the documents may have been stolen by this evil twin. or c. anything else that is even remotely possible.

So basically, scientifically speaking, you can never prove anyone's identity 100%, no matter who they are because there can always be some outlandish explanation as to how you may not be you. This is the difference between scientific "proof" (which really doesn't exist) and "regular" proof as we all know it...

But we are getting too philosophical here and completely away from the topic, which is "Franziska's Baby?".
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 11:48:36 AM
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I wasn't being confrontational.  I was expressing a different opinion, based on my experience as a published historian.

Sorry.  I won't do it again.


I think it was just miscommunication because I probably didn't make clear enough what I was trying to say, while expressing an opinion as a published scientist.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: AGRBear on February 10, 2005, 11:59:47 AM
Back to time frames and baby  being born:
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Franziska actually traveled home to visit, and had been home at Christmas time 1919.  

Ian Lilburn told me that during the trial, the issue of a pregnancy did arise, and Doris Wingender was asked if FS had been pregnant while in the Wingender household.  Her response was what he called "middle-class outrage" at the idea that she and her mother and sister would have housed a fallen woman in their residence.  According to the German court system, testimony is freely given, and a witness is only asked to swear an oath if the panel of judges think he or she is lying, or if the piece of evidence is particularly vital to one side or the other.  Doris Wingender was not asked to take an oath until 1963.  At that time, even though the court "really didn't take the Schanzkowska business very much to heart" (Ian Lilburn in Peter), Judge Petersen was asked to administer the oath to Doris by Attorney Wollmann.  "She's either going to perjure herself, and I'm going to prove it, or she's going to have to retract."  Wollmann led her through the whole Schanzkowska story, then demanded that the judges administer the oath. Doris resisted strenuously, claiming that she had the flu and needed to have her pulse taken.  There was arguing back and forth between Wollmann and the judges whether the oath-taking could wait until she was feeling better, and during this time, Doris slipped out of the courtroom and never came back.  

So all of the Wingender testimony is unsworn, including the "middle-class outrage" over the suggestion of FS' pregnancy.  However, given Franziska's known schedule, including doctors' visits and time in asylums, there is no period of time unaccounted for that is longer than six or eight weeks or so between 1916 and her disappearance in early 1920.


FS was born in Dec 1896 so she could have had a child as early as fifteen or sixteen.  That would have been what about 1912/1913.

We have a time frame between 1912/13 to ... 1915...

After the birth of a child, some women suffer terrible depression....  Perhaps the reason which takes her into first asylum.....

Althought not a sworm statement Wingender said she didn't know about FS being pregnant.

She visisted her family for Xmas in 1919.

She was in and out of aslyums 1916 to 1920 and no time frame allowes her being pregnant at that time, Penny tells us.

Is this right?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 10, 2005, 12:01:57 PM
If Doris Wingender was paid to give a statement during AA's trial, isn't there a big chance, she was paid to say "the right thing". What I mean is, was she paid to say what would go well in the court? I've found that  through history money influences everything.  ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 12:05:52 PM
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If Doris Wingender was paid to give a statement during AA's trial, isn't there a big chance, she was paid to say "the right thing". What I mean is, was she paid to say what would go well in the court?
 Yes, of course. But I don't think there is any way to prove or disprove her testimony at this point, we can only discount it if we feel she was not a credible witness... But then again, half of those who gave testimonies in this case, on both sides, don't seem to be too credible. We just have to decide if we want to accept their testimonies or throw some out completely. There is no way to confirm many of them...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 12:08:33 PM
I don't think we will ever be able to prove FS didn't have a baby. There are too many possibilities.

As I said with my Grandma, even a miscarriage as early as 4 months can give you the same scar on the inside of the uterus (that shows up in an exam) a full term baby does.

She could also have thrown the baby in the trash  :'( as desperate girls still do sometimes today, and then denied it ever existed.

She could have hidden from her family and friends while she was big and pregnant, then gave the baby to an orphanage (like AA said she did) and never mentioned it to anyone. The baby could have been born dead and she didn't tell anyone.

Also, her family and friends (at the time) could have known about it but kept her secret, (remember an 'out of wedlock' child was considered a shameful thing back then) and now they're dead and can't tell us.

So technically unless it was recorded at a medical office or a records builiding we cannot find evidence, and considering all the things that may have occured (especially during the turmoil of the WWI years) we'll never have proof. While you can prove someone did have a child, it's impossible to prove they didn't unless they are still alive to be examined.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 10, 2005, 12:13:54 PM
Is Doris Wingender considard a credible source then? In my eyes I would say no, but then again, I don't know as much about the Romanovs and all things related as much as everyone else does  :-/
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 12:16:29 PM
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Is Doris Wingender considard a credible source then?
 Not if it can be proven that she accepted money for her testimony...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 12:17:00 PM
I'm not saying Doris W. wasn't credible, only that she didn't know every single detail of FS's life. She could have had a baby before she met her, (as bear said she could have had the baby very young, even a 12 year old can get pregnant) or hid it from her. Also she may have covered it up because it was a 'disgrace' back then. There are too many possibilities.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 12:18:27 PM
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 Not if it can be proven that she accepted money for her testimony...


Oh my  :o  I didn't know that was a possibility. I have suspected that of quite a few of those who testified. ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 12:26:17 PM
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Last night I read the article you and Belochka wrote for Atlantis -- and I think it's excellent!  Just what is needed, I think, to explain exactly where this thing stands right now, at the crossroads of history and science...    :D


Thank you! We will make some sort of a posting about it on the forum soon, to let everyone know about this article in the upcoming Atlantis issue.

Sorry for the digression, now back to the "FS baby".   :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 01:15:49 PM
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There are as many possibilities as there are people with ideas.  The trick is to figure out which is most likely, based on the evidence that we have.  No member of FS's family or village community, including her confrontational sister Gertrude or her childhood best friend Martha, claimed that she had ever had a child.  


There again, there is the very likely possibility that:

a) they didn't know or b) they were lying to save her rep (as an illegit kid was such a humiliation to the entire family back then)



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Sometimes the absence of evidence is evidence in itself.


No, because you never know what's been hidden.