Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 01:36:49 PM

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 01:36:49 PM
Penny, did FS's medical chart mention anything else about her GYN issues, one way or another? If they didn't mention anything about her not being a virgin, wouldn't they have then said that she was if they actually examined her gynecologically? You would expect that if they had examined her to that extent, they would say something one way or another in the chart and not just omit that they did it ... Maybe they just didn't think any of that was relevant at the time they examined her, therefore didn't do it. I don't know what the standard was back then as far as physical exams for a specific conditions, but maybe because it was an exam to specifically determine the damage she may have sustained from the explosion, they did not examine anything that was not relevant to it... Did her medical chart contain her complete health record or just info from that one examination?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 10, 2005, 02:21:59 PM
BUT, when the doctors examined her after her suicide attempt, they thought she had delivered a child at one point. That doesn't mean with all certainty she did have a child.  I have always doubted that she did have one.

Also, about Massie, I want to state that it was late when I made that post last night and wasn't thinking too clearly, however, I very much agree with Penny that he shouldn't have said  AA is FS.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Malenkaya on February 10, 2005, 02:35:49 PM
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BUT, when the doctors examined her after her suicide attempt, they thought she had delivered a child at one point. That doesn't mean with all certainty she did have a child.  I have always doubted that she did have one.


The doctor's medical conclusion was that she had given birth to a child at some point.  This was their find during the original examination when she first arrived and they had no clue who she was.  So what makes you think the doctors were wrong?  Why would you doubt that?  What do you know that they didn't?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 02:41:33 PM
Kurth merely says that the doctor's said AA wasn't a virgin.  Does anyone have a source for the doctor's saying she had given birth to a child?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 10, 2005, 03:08:57 PM
Actually Malenkaya, Denise beat me to the punch, all I have ever read is that she was not a virgin according to the Dr.'s and that I never had read that there was any proof that she did give birth.

Penny could you enlighten me on this...thanks
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::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 04:31:59 PM
One thing I want to bring up is that Annie suggested that if FS had miscarried there would still be evidence due to the condition of her uterus, based on experience of her own grandmother.  I personally don't see why doctors who are checking the health of a mental patient (AA) are going to be so thorough a ob-gyn exam (in 1920!) to discover such a thing or not.  

I guess what I want to say, is do we have medical proof that AA really gave birth?  Other than her fairy tale about baby Alexander.  No claimant has ever come forward caiming to be this person.  Obviously, since we know AA wasn't AN, this is a moot point.  However, at the height of the AA fame, wouldn't you think there would be a pretender if she ever had a child at all?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 04:49:59 PM
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BUT, when the doctors examined her after her suicide attempt, they thought she had delivered a child at one point. That doesn't mean with all certainty she did have a child.  I have always doubted that she did have one.


Michael, I was actually referring to FS's examination after she was in the explosion accident, not to AA's examination after she jumped off the bridge. This is assuming that they are two different individuals...  

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No claimant has ever come forward caiming to be this person. ...at the height of the AA fame, wouldn't you think there would be a pretender if she ever had a child at all?


It's possible that this child didn't know whose son he was at the time, and maybe found out much later, or maybe never found out... Maybe he was just abandoned and never told who his mother was, or maybe he was told but never made the connection between his mother and AA ... So this is why he never came out...

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One thing I want to bring up is that Annie suggested that if FS had miscarried there would still be evidence due to the condition of her uterus, based on experience of her own grandmother.


Does anyone know if having an abortion would also have the same affect on the uterus as having carried a child to full term (at least as far as they could tell in an exam?)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 04:54:07 PM
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Kurth merely says that the doctor's said AA wasn't a virgin.  Does anyone have a source for the doctor's saying she had given birth to a child?


That's a good point, Denise. I think I remember this too, and the fact that AA said that she had a child, but come to think it of it, I can't remember whether the doctors explicitly stated that this woman had a child.... Maybe we are just assuming that this was the case, because of her own story... Anyone know if they medically confirmed this fact? There is big difference berween not being a virgin and having given birth, there must be a way they could have established this, but unless they specifically stated this in the medical chart, then we can't assume that this was the case... For obvious reasons we can't just go by AA's story of having given birth to a child...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 05:03:33 PM
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Does anyone know if having an abortion would also have the same affect on the uterus as having carried a child to full term (at least as far as they could tell in an exam?)


I would say it would be the same as a miscarriage, an incomplete pregnancy. It would also show the same spot on the uterus.

But as Denise said, I don't think any mental hospital would bother to do a complete GYN exam on her, especially not back in 1920. Seeing if she were a virgin or not may be one thing, but a complete internal exam is something else.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 05:07:47 PM
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...he shouldn't have said  AA is FS.  


Yes, he probably shouldn't have used those terms, but at the same time, to be fair to Massie, Peter Kurth continuously refers to Anna Anderson as Anastasia in his book - not as "possible Anastasia". Isn't that the same thing as Massie referring to AA as Franziska S? In fact, it is even more presumtuous, because we now know that AA wasn't AN, while we don't know that she wasn't FS! So techinically, they are both guilty of presumption!  ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 05:10:16 PM
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Yup, it would have the same effect. Full-term birth, premature birth, abortion and all but the very, very earliest of miscarriages would alter the shape of the cervical opening -- according to my doctor.


So then it would be possible that FS could have gotten pregnant and had an early abortion, so no one among her family or friends knew about the pregnancy?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 05:17:38 PM
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I believe that there was a medical examination at some point -- I'm not sure of the date and I'm foggy on the doctor's name, but I do know that he confirmed that she had given birth at some point in her life.
 
 

Do you remember if this information was in PK's book, or somewhere else? I have the book in front of me now, but I can't find anything about that...




Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Malenkaya on February 10, 2005, 05:17:41 PM
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Does anyone know if having an abortion would also have the same affect on the uterus as having carried a child to full term (at least as far as they could tell in an exam?)


I don't know about that, but I had a miscarriage last year, and during a later exam the doctor told me there was nothing that would have indicated I had ever had a pregnancy.  

I miscarried at the end of my second month, so from that information I would have to say if a doctor detected that AA had been pregnant, she would have had to carry the pregnancy further than I did.

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I asked my gynecologist about this, and he told me that it's an easy thing to see and doesn't require a thorough examination:  After giving birth, the opening in the cervix changes from a round shape to an oval one.  Ever so occasionally, someone who has given birth retains the round-shaped opening, but my doctor had never heard of someone who hasn't given birth having an oval cervical opening.

Of course, through this method, it couldn't be told how many times someone had been pregnant -- but the bare fact that a birth had occurred -- even a miscarriage -- would be evident.


Very interesting.  My doctor was referring to the uterus itself - I wasn't aware the cervix made a permanent change.  You learn something new every day.  

So basically, from an exam, a doctor would know whether or not a woman has ever been pregnant before.  There is no distinction from a birth, a miscarriage or an abortion.

So AA's doctors said she had given birth.  I guess what we can get from that, from what Penny's doctor said, is that at the very least AA had been pregnant at some point in her life.  I know we can't trust her story just because she says so, but I tend to believe she made up the story of having a baby because she really had a baby at some point.  If she knew the doctors had been able to get that from her exam, she probably figured she needed to work it into her story in some way.

Anastasia
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 05:22:25 PM
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I don't know about that, but I had a miscarriage last year, and during a later exam the doctor told me there was nothing that would have indicated I had ever had a pregnancy.  

I miscarried at the end of my second month, so from that information I would have to say if a doctor detected that AA had been pregnant, she would have had to carry the pregnancy further than I did.


Many women may not even realize that they are pregnant at two months yet. Perhaps FS had an abortion at 4 or even 5 months, it has been known to happen, and the pregnancy may not have been so obvious at that point yet... At that point, the cervix would probably show signs of having given birth.

In any case, we will never know, I suppose. And unless we can find the child Alexander and do the DNA testing that shows he is AA's son, then we will never really know about that either....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 05:38:18 PM
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Many women may not even realize that they are pregnant at two months yet. Perhaps FS had an abortion at 4 or even 5 months, it has been known to happen, and the pregnancy may not have been so obvious at that point yet... At that point, the cervix would probably show signs of having given birth.




My Grandma had been 4 months along when she fell down the stairs and miscarried and the doctor could tell it same as a full term baby. So FS may have carried the baby at least that long before losing it or getting rid of it.

Here's another thing to consider: AA never had another child, so it is possible the miscarriage or abortion was damaging to her organs and left her infertile.

Malenkaya, I'm sorry about your miscarriage :(
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Malenkaya on February 10, 2005, 05:40:32 PM
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Malenkaya, I'm sorry about your miscarriage :(


Thank you.  I didn't want to bring it up, but once the talk turned to how the doctors knew what they did, it made me think of things my doctor had said to me.  And I ended up learning something new in the process.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 05:42:39 PM
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Thank you.  I didn't want to bring it up, but once the talk turned to how the doctors knew what they did, it made me think of things my doctor had said to me.  And I ended up learning something new in the process.


I also had one at about 8 weeks, and it was sad. Thanks for sharing your experience with us in the context of the discussion even though it's not a good  memory.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Abby on February 10, 2005, 05:44:08 PM
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Many women may not even realize that they are pregnant at two months yet. Perhaps FS had an abortion at 4 or even 5 months, it has been known to happen, and the pregnancy may not have been so obvious at that point yet... At that point, the cervix would probably show signs of having given birth.

In any case, we will never know, I suppose. And unless we can find the child Alexander and do the DNA testing that shows he is AA's son, then we will never really know about that either....



Oh, if FS had an abortion it must have been so crude...I cringe to think of the methods that existed for abortions in the early 1900's :( If this is indeed what FS did then it would have left quite a bit of scarring.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Malenkaya on February 10, 2005, 05:50:05 PM
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I also had one at about 8 weeks, and it was sad. Thanks for sharing your experience with us in the context of the discussion even though it's not a good  memory.


I'm sorry for your loss as well.  I won't get into my personal life here (that's not what this board is for) but as sad as it was, under the circumstances, it turned out to be a good thing.  Or at least that's what I've been told.

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Oh, if FS had an abortion it must have been so crude...I cringe to think of the methods that existed for abortions in the early 1900's :( If this is indeed what FS did then it would have left quite a bit of scarring.


I was thinking this too.  I can't even imagine what the procedure must have been like in those days.  I would think the doctors would have definitely been able to tell if an abortion had been performed.

Anastasia
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 10, 2005, 06:08:18 PM
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 I would think the doctors would have definitely been able to tell if an abortion had been performed.


Yes, that's a good point. So the only other possibilities would be is that she either had a child, had a later miscarriage or neither.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Kransnoeselo on February 10, 2005, 10:27:28 PM
Hey everyone- about the Doctor's visit- A close friend of Jack and Anastasia Manahan (AA) told me that he went to Germany (in the 1970's) on Jack's bequest to find information regarding his wife's claim to be Anastasia.  He met with Baron Ulrich von Genianth who had been in charge of AA's finances when she lived in the black forest.  He was the one who took her to see a physician who (probably in the 1950's) examined AA and said conclusively that she had bore a child.  

Hope that helps

Tim
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 10, 2005, 10:39:23 PM
I am glad that you ladies asked these questions among yourselves, I apologize, but I didn't want offend anyone with my thoughts of late term miscarriage, abortion, that sort of thing.  Our minds are all working on the same path.

However I am curious as to if this issue came to light during that courtcase about there being evidence that she gave birth.  Pardon me if I am a bit behind on the discussion today, but I have been busy.

8) 8)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 11:09:46 PM
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Hey everyone- about the Doctor's visit- A close friend of Jack and Anastasia Manahan (AA) told me that he went to Germany (in the 1970's) on Jack's bequest to find information regarding his wife's claim to be Anastasia.  He met with Baron Ulrich von Genianth who had been in charge of AA's finances when she lived in the black forest.  He was the one who took her to see a physician who (probably in the 1950's) examined AA and said conclusively that she had bore a child.  

Hope that helps

Tim


Thanks Tim!  That gives us dates to go by.  At last some concrete info on the doctor's exam....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 07:56:48 AM
Thanks, Tim, for that info. Yes, it would be interesting to find out to what extent this medical info about AA and FS was mentioned in court. If they had some physician testimonies about this, it could have been pretty good evidence against AA and FS being the same person. Except that I am not sure if they would delve so deeply into this at the time because these court proceedings were more about trying to figure out if AA was Anastasia rather than if she was or was not FS.... Yes, Penny, please let us know what the court transcripts say about that part, when you get the chance.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 10:44:32 AM
Over on Annie's new thread about Anna Anderson's story,  Penny  posted:

>>It is possible also that von Kleist added some information -- for instance, his version of the story states that her son, Alexander, was born in Bucharest on 5 December 1918.<<

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 11, 2005, 11:10:48 AM
I think it is interesting that  this wasn't brought out until her marriage to Manahan, if that is indeed the case.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 11:28:23 AM
Why did von Kleist (or AA) wait so long to spill the info about Alexander's date and place of birth?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 12:42:29 PM
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I don't think von Kleist DID wait any length of time.  The story was given to Zenaida Tolstoy in the summer of 1922.  She gave it to von Kleist directly, and this is the story he circulated -- though he didn't know the half of it.  Over the next six or seven years, AA added much more detail to her story.  See Pter Kurth's Chapter 2, called, funnily enough, "The Story." 8)


Thanks, I'll take a look. I am wondering, since there is a good amount of detail here about the birth's time and location, has anyone ever tried to track down this child?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 12:55:54 PM
Does anyone know why AA never had another child? Was it because she just never had relations, or because she was unable due to the birth (or miscarriage or abortion) she suffered earlier, or perhaps she was afraid if she had one it could be genetically traced to her family? (sure there was no DNA test in those days but there were blood tests and other factors)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 01:04:15 PM
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Does anyone know why AA never had another child? Was it because she just never had relations, or because she was unable due to the birth (or miscarriage or abortion) she suffered earlier, or perhaps she was afraid if she had one it could be genetically traced to her family? (sure there was no DNA test in those days but there were blood tests and other factors)


I don't know if she was ever involved with any man after her discharge from the mental hospital. You never really hear about that... And I think her marriage to Manahan was more something of a convenience marriage, so that she could stay in the US.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 05:08:03 PM
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I don't know if she was ever involved with any man after her discharge from the mental hospital. You never really hear about that... And I think her marriage to Manahan was more something of a convenience marriage, so that she could stay in the US.



And by then she was beyond child bearing years.

I was confused by the "Prince Erich" character which wasted much of the "Anastasia" miniseries starring Amy Irving. I was trying to figure out who that was supposed to be, using a changed name like they did for Gleb Botkin. Then I found out there was so such beau, and I wondered why they wasted so much time on something that didn't even happen when they could have focused more on the real aspects of this fascinating story! They ended it at the court case when it was really just beginning!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 11, 2005, 05:17:41 PM
I have found no miniseries or movie to me that has accuartely displayed the IF or their life to my satisfaction, I was totally dissatisfied with their portrayal of Anastasia in that series, as well as the Prince Erich character, reminds one of the movie Anastasia, and the character of Prince Paul of Heraldburg.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 05:33:24 PM
Yeah, the Amy Irving mini-series was pretty pathetic... Of course they had to invent the "beau" - that's Hollywood  ;)! But no, I don't think there was anything like this in real life.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 11, 2005, 05:38:25 PM
The HBO miniseries, special with Ian McKellan, and Greta Sacchi, and Alan Rickman, outside of the interiors of the Catherine Palace, and the stellar cast, was a let down too.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 05:41:18 PM
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The HBO miniseries, special with Ian McKellan, and Greta Sacchi, and Alan Rickman, outside of the interiors of the Catherine Palace, and the stellar cast, was a let down too.


What was the name of this special, Michael? I don't think I saw this...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Malenkaya on February 11, 2005, 07:09:28 PM
That was "Rasputin" although I don't remember it as a miniseries, just a movie.  I remember watching it on HBO the night it premiered.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 07:50:55 PM
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That was "Rasputin" although I don't remember it as a miniseries, just a movie.  I remember watching it on HBO the night it premiered.


Oh yes, I remember, I did see it. Thanks.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 12, 2005, 12:32:57 AM
You are right it was a movie, not a miniseries.  I was very disappointed by the story.....and the narration by Alexis....The whole thing was done wrong, but of course we Romanov buffs, know how it could be done better, right??? ::) ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 12, 2005, 10:10:09 PM
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You are right it was a movie, not a miniseries.  I was very disappointed by the story.....and the narration by Alexis....The whole thing was done wrong, but of course we Romanov buffs, know how it could be done better, right??? ::) ::)


I actually liked this movie.  Just got a copy off  Ebay.  I realize the historicity was not there, but I liked the characterizations of Rasputin and Nicholas, especially.  THere is a good thread discussing this on the Films board.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 13, 2005, 10:20:11 AM
Denise weren't those interior's great????  I know the exteriors were of the Catherine Palace.  However even though I think the interiors were, I can't remember exactly, does the film credits give any information on that source?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 11:25:29 AM
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Denise weren't those interior's great????  I know the exteriors were of the Catherine Palace.  However even though I think the interiors were, I can't remember exactly, does the film credits give any information on that source?


Michael, I can check tomorrow night.  My father in law died suddenly, and I have the visitation and funeral to get through .  Tomorrow night I will watch the credits, as it will be a nice diversion....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on February 13, 2005, 01:00:25 PM
Denise, thank you.   My deepest sympathy to you & your family at this time. :'(
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 07:19:30 PM
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Denise, thank you.   My deepest sympathy to you & your family at this time. :'(


Thank you, Michael.  This board and the people on it are helping me through this more than you know!!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on February 14, 2005, 04:40:16 PM
Okay guys, I believe these are the right microfilm numbers. The microfilm should have more  information on the Schankowsky family. You can order the microfilm through your local Mormon Family History Center:

Taufen 1706-1855-FHLINTL film [72747]

Heiraten 1706-1855 Tote 1758-1866 Chronik 1794-1822 -FHL INTL Film [72748]

Taufen 1856-1889 Tote 1866-1911-FHL INTL Film [544101]

Tote 1841-1852-FHL INTL Film [742704 item 4]

Heiraten 1856-1938-FHL INTL film [850293 item 1]

Taufen 1890-FHL INTL Film [1618610 item 4]

I believe the name of the church is St. Joseph's, I can't remember the name of the town, but it should cover all existing catholic church records for FS's hometown.

The name of the woman that helped me was "Baerbel" (German, I believe)She should have some more information. Just have the name of FS's hometown ready, as well as the name of the district. Her number at the Family history library (but this was a few years back) is:

801-240-6289

Just ask for the international library. Or you can take the information I provided and head down to your local stake.  

It's alot of information to go through. But, could luck adventurers, and have fun! ;)

Jeremy

P.S. Religion shouldn't be an issue either. I myself am not Mormon, but the Mormons I've encountered have been very kind and helpful, and the issue of religion has never been brought up.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Candice on February 14, 2005, 04:51:58 PM
Jeremy, the mormons do have an incredible ancestry record collection, never thought to check there.  Many thanks.





Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on February 14, 2005, 05:17:38 PM
Found it!

The name of the town the church is in is called Sullenschin This one church covers all of the records for Borowhilas.


Jeremy
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 24, 2005, 08:23:53 AM
Michael, I took the easy way out and found a review of the Rasputin film on Variety.com.  Here is the set information from that site:

Film, shot over eight weeks in tough weather and finished in December, used the czar's village, Tsarvoe; a restored Peterhof Palace on the Baltic; St. Isaac's Cathedral and the Yusoupov Palace, where Rasputin died. His body's tossed into the frozen Neva River from the real Petrovsky Bridge, site of the deed.

Here is the whole review link:
http://www.variety.com/review/VE1117905077?categoryid=32&cs=1
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on February 25, 2005, 11:52:45 AM
Hi everyone

I'm moving this info over here so it doesn't get buried, and hopefully will be a benefit to those researching:  



.....I know many of you are eager to start your own research. So, I'm posting some resources to help you. When you contact these places, please have all the information you need (such as dates) to help them in their research. It also may help you if you know someone in the area (Or are going to be traveling to Germany )

If you are after mental health records relating to FS's stay in mental insitutions:  
for the courts responsible for berlin schoeneberg, please contact

amtsgericht schoenberg
grunewaldstrasse 66-67
d-10823 berlin

for neuruppio

amtsgericht neuruppin
karl-marx-strasse 180
d-16816 neuruppin

for magazines and newspapers related to the  "unmaskiing of AA", please contact the following libraries:

staatsbibliothek zu berlin
unter den linden 8
d-10117 berlin (mitte)

staatsbibliothek zu berlin
potsdamer str.33
d-10785 berlin (tiergarter)

And, I believe this is the address of the main library:

staatsbibliothek zu berlin
zeitungsabteilung
westhafenstr.1
d-13353 berlin

for civil registration records related to the Schankowski family (marriage licenses, etc.), please go the following website
 www.gdansk.ap.gov.pl

Here are some dates for important court testimony:

Doris Rittman and Louise Fiedler testified on November 17-18 1965

Gertrude S testified in 1959

Martha Borkowska, childhood friend of FS testified in may of 1958

The date that FS was declared insane was September 19,1916

Some important dates relating to the "unmasking"
occuured in the "Berliner Nachtausgabe" on March 31, 1927 and April 6, 1927

Also the "Berliner Illustrierte Zeitung" dated 10/23/21 may have some early information on the Imperial Family that FS may have seen in the asylum.
 

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 25, 2005, 12:07:02 PM
Thank you Jeremy for this info.

Any news on the age progression photos? We are all waiting very impatiently for them!  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on February 25, 2005, 11:47:14 PM
Patience mes enfants, patience!

Bientôt le rideau il  tombent et les hommes el les femmes regardent avec leurs yeux.

Anastasia le jour de son mariage ?... Alexei le jour de son couronnement ?....

Les possibilités ont fini par les baïonnettes et les balles sont sans fin comme temps......
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 25, 2005, 11:59:34 PM
Quote
Patience mes enfants, patience!

 Bientôt le rideau il  tombent et les hommes el les femmes regardent avec leurs yeux.

 Anastasia le jour de son mariage ?... Alexei le jour de son couronnement ?....

Les possibilités ont fini par les baïonnettes et les balles sont sans fin comme temps......


Je ne comprende pas apres "Patience mes enfants, patience!"  Anglais, s'il vous plait!!

Denise ;)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: daveK on February 26, 2005, 12:41:14 AM
Anastasia le jour de son mariage!  Je ne puis pas attendre pour la voir.  Beaucoup sont en désaccord, mais je pense qu'elle est la plus jolie parmi des soeurs.  Je m'inquiète cependant.  Ce qui si elle ressemble à Anna Anderson...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Laura Mabee on February 28, 2005, 06:43:39 PM
What do we do with these microfilm numbers?
Can we take them to our community library and ask for them? .. sorry I am a complete goof  :-X
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on February 28, 2005, 06:57:11 PM
Quote
What do we do with these microfilm numbers?
Can we take them to our community library and ask for them? .. sorry I am a complete goof  :-X


No you aren't Laura--I was wondering that too!!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on March 01, 2005, 12:29:48 PM
Quote
What do we do with these microfilm numbers?
Can we take them to our community library and ask for them? .. sorry I am a complete goof  :-X


Sorry, my bad! You can order them through your local mormon family history center.

I also modified my earlier posts to include important court dates if anyone is researching the AA trials.
If I'm not filming this Summer I'm going to be visiting some family friends in the UK. If I have time, I'll stop over in Germany and do some research if anyone needs me to. Just let me know what you're looking for.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on March 01, 2005, 12:33:35 PM
Quote

Je ne comprende pas apres "Patience mes enfants, patience!"  Anglais, s'il vous plait!!

Denise ;)



Oh, alright...for the "French impaired" ;)

It was a bad attempt at being poetic. For fun, I thought it might be interesting to see what Anastasia and Alexei may have looked like on important days in their lives, if they had lived to adulthood. (AN in a wedding dress, Alexei in coronation regalia)
It's taking a quite a bit of "Artistic Licence" as they say, but if the pictures end up looking to cheesy, I won't post them.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on March 01, 2005, 12:40:05 PM
Quote
Anastasia le jour de son mariage!  Je ne puis pas attendre pour la voir.  Beaucoup sont en désaccord, mais je pense qu'elle est la plus jolie parmi des soeurs.

I agree, I think AN is the prettiest of the sisters too.    

  Je m'inquiète cependant.  Ce qui si elle ressemble à Anna Anderson...


I worry about the possibility of a resemblence too. (Though I don't think they look alike at all, but that's just my opinion)
But, what can we do? The eyes of men and women see
what they want to see. For example, many see the faces of long dead relatives in newborn babies but, to me, all newborns look like hairless monkeys! It's not till they are older that they may bare a significant resemblence to someone (Or start to get cute)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on March 01, 2005, 01:22:47 PM
THanks Jeremy!!  That's what I thought was said.  My French was a VERY long time ago!!  ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on March 01, 2005, 01:48:55 PM
Quote

I think a stumbling block here is the idea -- and this isn't your idea Helen, it just seems to be the general perception -- that the Schanzkowskys were "dirt poor."  They weren't.  They farmed a piece of land quite successfully when the parents were married and together -- and later on the former Mrs S seems to have been quite "middle class."  I wouldn't say that they were wealthy, but certainly they could afford a few "extras" for their children -- I remember that M-J had dancing lessons of some sort -- so I imagine that there were properly fitting shoes.


Just of the family, sorry!  There were a number of photos of all the Schanzkowskys that Ian saw, but he only got hold of the ones that the Nazis took.  Perhaps because these were not "family" photos, Felix let him have them.




Photos:
Quote

I have only seen the usual stuff.  I tend not to set too much store in the Wingender girls' description of FS.  I think they are a little too "penny-dreadful" to be taken seriously.

Ian Lilburn told me that during the trial, there was evidence entered concerning Franziska's dress and shoe sizes -- I forget from whom this came, though I have an idea it originated from the Wingenders who surrendered the clothing that FS left behind at their residence when she disappeared.  In both cases, the sizes were quite a bit bigger than the sizes Fraulein U wore --  a little enough matter in the case of dress sizes where weight can be gained or lost relatively easily, but shoe sizes are another thing.  One clue that I cannot shake is that Fraulein U wore shoes three sizes smaller than FS's shoes.  Feet can spread out in width with age and various ailments -- like the bunions -- but can they shrink three sizes in the space of a couple of weeks?

Ian also told me that there were several photographs of Franziska that he saw in the course of the trial.  The one that we all know is the one that Pierre Gilliard selected to illustrate his book, and it was the one -- in Ian's opinion -- that was the least clear in presenting its subject.  I don't know what happened to these other photographs of FS.  They might have simply belonged to Felix, with whom Ian spoke on several occasions.  If they were entered into evidence, they have never surfaced.

Ian was kind enough to let us take copies of some Schanzkowsky photos that he got at the trial -- they are the ones that the Nazis took of the family.  I will try and scan them for posting if anyone would like to see them -- but it will take me a couple of days.  I am very behind on tons of stuff!  ::)  


Thought I'd put this on this thread, too, since Penny is telling us a little more about the Schanzkowsky Family.
AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Laura Mabee on March 02, 2005, 10:08:52 PM
Quote

Sorry, my bad! You can order them through your local mormon family history center.

I also modified my earlier posts to include important court dates if anyone is researching the AA trials.
If I'm not filming this Summer I'm going to be visiting some family friends in the UK. If I have time, I'll stop over in Germany and do some research if anyone needs me to. Just let me know what you're looking for.  



Ahh ^_^ Thanks Jeremy  ;D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 10, 2005, 10:24:33 AM
Here are the photos  of some of the members of the Schankowski family from Penny. I thought this would the appropriate thread to post them, but anyone feel free to copy them to other threads as needed.

This is Gertrude Schanzkowsky Ellerik in late middle age:
(http://img201.exs.cx/img201/8595/gertrude3iz.jpg) This is Maria Juliana: (http://img201.exs.cx/img201/5407/juliana5te.jpg)

Since we talk about her... this is Harriet von Rathlef:(http://img201.exs.cx/img201/7010/harriet3la.jpg)  

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on March 10, 2005, 10:30:42 AM
The Fiat Truck is interesting, with no protection on the sides, on a bumpy mining road or a road through the woods a body could easily jump out.

Gertrude Ellerik I see a resemblance in the mouth.

Marie Julianna, I don't see a resemblance at all upon first glance.


Thanks Penny & Helen for these photos!!!!  I can't tell you how much we appreciate this.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on March 10, 2005, 10:49:26 AM
Thanks Penny and Helen.  I placed the Fiat truck over on one of my threads:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1106871065;start=25#32

Questions about the buriel in Pig's Meadow.


I thought about placing it under Missing Bodies, too, which is where we probably should go and talk about bodies falling off, etc..
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102980672;start=150#170

These photos of FS family do not show me any likeness to FS, however, to be fair,  Gertrude is much older here than the one we have of FS.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 10, 2005, 10:55:43 AM
Thanks, Bear for transporting the Fiat photo to the right thread. I am going to now take it out of here, since it doesn't really belong....

Here is one more picture that I was missing, of Felix Schankowski (taken some time in the 1950's):

(http://img39.exs.cx/img39/4383/felix1ls.jpg)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 10, 2005, 10:57:58 AM
Quote
Gertrude Ellerik I see a resemblance in the mouth. Marie Julianna, I don't see a resemblance at all upon first glance.


Michael, a resemblence to whom? AA or FS?  ;)

Quote
Thanks Penny & Helen for these photos!!!!  I can't tell you how much we appreciate this.


You're welcome.  :)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on March 10, 2005, 11:00:11 AM
There's a photo of Felix too, that seems to have been lost in cyberspace, so I have re-sent it to the very kind soul that is Helen.

I have somewhere the photos taken at the time of the Nazi inquiry, and the one of Gertrude is very like the Felix that I have sent to Helen -- sharp-nosed and fine-featured.  I thought that this Gertrude might be of interest in comparing to photos of AA in old-age.

The photo of Maria Juliana was taken by the court investigator in the late twenties, at the suggestion of the family.  It was their opinion that Maria Juliana and Franziska were very much alike, though MJ was several years younger.

The truck photo was sent by Fiat in answer to a request regarding the sorts of trucks shipped to Russia at the time in question.  I believe that this is a model from the mid-teens.  I have always been under the impression that the truck had stake-bed sides.  Fiat did not sell trucks with sides at this time, so if the truck had them, they were an after-market addition.  I don't know if the impression of sides on the truck is correct or not, though -- or if it's something that I just assumed or picked up subliminally from watching various recreations -- I can't recall actually reading such specifics about the truck.  So, right now, I can't say for sure that there were sides...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on March 10, 2005, 11:02:02 AM
Well Helen, the resemblence around the mouth is to the photo of FS.  However the photo is not the best, and it is hard to say definitely, BUT it does look as though Gertrude had been through a great deal.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 10, 2005, 11:10:07 AM
To tell the truth, I don't see any resemblence among any of them: Gertrude or Felix or Maria Juliana with AA or FS. I almost can see more resembelence between Gertude and Harriet than with anyone else  ;D. But seriously, it's hard to tell because the pictures are black and white, not of the clearest quality, of varied time periods (which can make the "look" different too) and the subjects are of all different ages and at all different angles. But interesting to see these guys nevertheless. Thanks, Penny for sharing them!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on March 10, 2005, 11:15:17 AM
And thank you very much, Helen, for posting them!  ;D

At the very least, we now know who we're talking about...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on March 10, 2005, 11:17:05 AM
I'm going to take Penny's remarks about the Fiat truck over the the Final Chapter, Missing Bodies thread, too.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102980672;start=150#171


AGRBear

PS  You're welcome Helen...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on March 10, 2005, 11:25:49 AM
Penny I was wondering if sides were an after market addition or if they used wooden ones, or if they used any at all.   Having to navigate some country roads myself I find it difficult to envision them using these mining, logging roads , with a truck full of bodies without any sides on them....these logging and mining roads usually aren't the best.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on March 10, 2005, 11:30:28 AM
I think most truck sides at the time were stake-bed sides, weren't they? Or at least, wooden ones.  I have to imagine that there were some sort of sides on the bed, because there was also a couple of guards traveling with the bodies, and I can only imagine trying to keep your balance and stay on the truck in the dark, on those roads, with a lot of shifting cargo...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on March 10, 2005, 11:38:01 AM
Not on this particular truck because if you look closely, you'll not see the metal sticking out on the sides of the bed of the truck where 2X4s or 4X4s [wood stakes]  would have been pushed into to hold up the sides.  

AGRBear

PS  You can see the hooks / eyes under the flat bed where a tarp would have been tied down.

PSS  I found two more fiats that were on another thread and placed them on the following page:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102980672;start=150#150

We had talked about the trucks on the thread of King and Wilson's book under BOOKs
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on March 23, 2005, 03:40:03 PM
Okay, let me see if this is right...

AA=Anna Anderson
AN=Anastasia Nikolaievna
FS=?

Who is FS?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on March 23, 2005, 04:52:43 PM
Franziska Schanzkowska, a Polish factory worker whose family's mtDNA matched that of AA.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on March 31, 2005, 01:40:25 PM
Updated Chart:

Quote
Penny: Is the following right?
 
CHART TWO:  
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek
 Issue:  [unknown]
 
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna __NN__ b. 1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Mother remarried to ___NN___]  
     Issue:  
    2. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895
    3. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896
     *  Gertrude b. poss. 1898
    4.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899
    5.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901
    6.  Felix b. 17 February 1903
    7. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905
 
 ---
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3) to  ___NN3___  
 Issue:  
   1. [unknown]  
 
NOTES
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown and place in families above is at this time is not known, however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 1898 which would place her fourth between FS and Michael.


On another thread Penny said this chart was right.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on March 31, 2005, 01:44:55 PM
More on Gertrude:

Quote
...[in part]...

Gertrud's children were:

1. Another Gertrud m. Maucher
     Carl Maucher's mother.

2, Hedwig Lander
    

3. Margarete
     Who lived with Carl Maucher
 
4. Magdalene m. Weber
     Had a son called Herbert Weber

Hope this all helps
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on April 19, 2005, 12:29:55 PM
Okay this is a little bit different- the vast majority of us accept that AA was not AN, and was FS. So let's discuss HOW a Polish farm girl managed to trick the world for so long. My guess is she had help, but was a good actress herself, and eventually came to believe her charade due to mental illness. Of course, we will never know the whole truth since everyone connected to this is dead, but we can try to explain it with our own reasonably reasonable theories. What are yours?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Forum Admin on April 19, 2005, 12:41:49 PM
I think she really believed what she was saying. People saw in her what they wanted to see, and she took cues and gleaned information from them, using that to build upon, much like those so called "psychics" do with their audiences (I see the letter "S"...is there a relative with the letter S??").

No one really presented her with any conclusive challenges, nothing that could really be verified by several sources.  I think she took small nuggets of truth, and like most good con artists, used those nuggets to suggest things far in excess of reality (for example, I could say "Yesterday I went to the Mercedes Dealer to look over the new S Class"...That can easily be interpreted to say that I am buying a new Mercedes S, well, maybe I DID go to the dealership, kick the tires and take a brochure, but I certainly can't really AFFORD a $100,000 car.) I think she just let people believe what they wanted to and ran with that ball.

Just my 2cents.
Rob
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on April 19, 2005, 01:44:07 PM
Quote
People saw in her what they wanted to see, and she took cues and gleaned information from them


You know, you are absolutely right FA. People see what they want to see , not the least of which are the arguments over her physical appearence. Some people still see resemblences to AN, and argue against any resemblence to FS.....

I've been reading another book that actually parallels the AA case in many ways it's called "The Lost German Slave Girl" by John Bailey, a great book.....

And I still recommend "The Lost King of France,"  which shows that the AA case was really just history repeating itself with a different cast of royals, nobles, frauds, and con men!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Elisabeth on April 19, 2005, 02:07:30 PM
I agree with the above opinions, with the proviso, that I really don't think she believed in her heart of hearts that she was Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna. I think she was always aware that she was conning others, and that it was a long con, so she had to stay alert and continually adjust her story to stay in tune with what others, who were better informed than she, were saying. I think AA was mentally ill, but that doesn't mean she was crazy. If she'd been flat-out crazy, she wouldn't have been able to mirror others so effectively, to echo their "facts," behavior, and opinions, to continue to glean new information from them. Instead she would have existed in her own little world, impervious to new facts and ideas.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on April 20, 2005, 11:51:38 PM
Good topic. I have always wondered how she pulled it off. But I think you all are correct. She was smart and could gleam enough information from her supporters to run with it. I think there were people who wanted so deperately to believe that someone from the IF survived, that she has some easy targets.
I have also wondered if she was coached and conned into the roll of AN by others with an agenda of their own. In any case, it is all very sad really. Can you imagine living your whole live as someone you are not?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Alice on April 20, 2005, 11:53:27 PM
Quote
Okay this is a little bit different- the vast majority of us accept that AA was not AN, and was FS. So let's discuss HOW a Polish farm girl managed to trick the world for so long. My guess is she had help, but was a good actress herself, and eventually came to believe her charade due to mental illness. Of course, we will never know the whole truth since everyone connected to this is dead, but we can try to explain it with our own reasonably reasonable theories. What are yours?


I'm surprised that this hasn't gotten more responses, people usually get rather riled up with discussions about AA/FS!  ;)

Nevertheless, a short story. A family friend, (who is an actor) was working on the film, "A Cry in the Dark" with Meryl Streep in the 80s. This film was about the disappearance of baby Azaria Chamberlain from the area around Ayer's Rock in central Australia (allegedly the baby was taken by a dingo). Anyway, our friend was amazed at Meryl's ability to become the character. He said that, even between takes and in breaks, Meryl retained her character's mannerisms.

I really think that FS was a person who had this ability. As FA said, she believed that she was AN. Also, in the early 1920's etc, it was easier to believe that someone may've escaped the massacre, because the remains had not been found. Another factor is that, I think, many people wanted to believe that someone survived.

(BTW hello to everyone . . . I've been away for awhile and I hope everyone is well!)  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Olga on April 21, 2005, 12:01:08 AM
Quote
This film was about the disappearance of baby Azaria Chamberlain from the area around Ayer's Rock in central Australia (allegedly the baby was taken by a dingo).


A dingo stole my baby!! *shrill, loud voice*


Quote
Another factor is that, I think, many people wanted to believe that someone survived.


This is the key to the survivor stories. It's comonly called Denial, as is best illustrated by Maria Fyodorovna.

Quote
(BTW hello to everyone . . . I've been away for awhile and I hope everyone is well!)  :)


Welcome back Alice! On a side note, are you Australian?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Alice on April 21, 2005, 12:04:42 AM
Thankyou, Olga, and yes, I am Australian. I've recently returned from a year living in Japan.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Olga on April 21, 2005, 12:09:53 AM
Very nice! My grandmother's from Japan, but I think I've already told you that. Duh!

Whereabouts in Australia are you?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on April 21, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
Everyone's ideas are very good! I'm sure they're all a part of the story somehow!

Welcome back Alice! Yes, FS did always want to be an actress. If she seemed 'refined' she was either acting (hey you can be coaches, like My Fair Lady) or as FA said, maybe some people just saw what they wanted to see.

But really, just about anyone can put on an act if they have to. What about job interviews? Court cases? Meeting the prospective new in-laws? It's not that hard to pretend to be something you're not. I have an aunt who is very prim and proper, and every since I was a kid, whenever we visited her, we were told to be on our best behavior. Boisterious, noisy, joking, playful, even sloppy people became quiet, calm, reserved, well mannered, even prissy. My Mom used to call this being "Mae Correct" If you met royalty, you'd do the same. If you met a favorite rock singer, you might be more loud, or act 'cool.' I think this is something anybody can do if they want to.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 21, 2005, 02:41:08 PM
My assessment of how FS did is probably closest to Elisabeth's. I think FS was partially a conwoman and partially a mentally ill person, and this combination resulted in AA. It was also a combination of a certain kind of talent and luck. She got lucky in many ways, her ear for example was not different enough from AN's in  to rule her out, etc. This luck was why she became the most famous AN pretender. If she didn't get lucky, she would have gotten lost in the herd of other Anastasia wanna-be's and we would not be talking about her right now.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on April 22, 2005, 12:16:13 PM
If AA was FS.....

FS had to have acquired scars which were  healed, even the one where it appeared that a mole was removed.  When did she?  I believe her family said she didn't have any marks that the police could use to identify the missing FS.  So, her wounds and the healing had to occur: (1)  between the time she last saw her family and headed for  Berlin to the time  she saw her family in Dec.: (2) or, from Dec to the moment FS jumped into the canal and was fished out by the policeman.  I'm not sure what time slot Gertrude and their living togather is incerted into this timeline.  Oh, maybe it was (3) after the doctors exaimed FS after the accident at the factor because the reports tells us she had not suffered any wounds....  Anyway, to acquire these kind of scars  sounds calculating and rings with conspiracy.

FS would have had to have been fasinated with the IF and often read about them.  It does appears she read a lot after the accident in the factory where she didn't suffer any injuries but it did kill a co-worker which proabably contributed to her break down. A break down tells us her mental state at that time was very emotional and too difficult for the family to handle.   So, if there was no conspiracy, then, she just "fell" into the part and never let go. And, her emotions fit the emotions which GD Anastasia would have suffered if she had survived.

FS could have  become pregnant and carried the child to part or full term by her boyfriend who was killed in action.  This happen in a lot of romance novels and I presume in real life.  Adding the story about a child being born to her and her rescuer during  her adventure from Ekaterinburg to Berlin was needed and so she did.

No one may have knowingly helped her and this was all her game and no one elses.  I do know that people do give up the darnest information without even knowing it because it happens all the time when I interview people for genealogy research.



AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on April 23, 2005, 04:36:47 PM
A sad,mad woman...FS...finally has something to cling to...her vague resemblance to a Romanov GD....and cling she did.....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: rskkiya on April 23, 2005, 05:51:09 PM
Vague?
Well, they were both "mammalian bypeds" of indo-european stock -- but that's about it.
rskkyia
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on April 23, 2005, 06:11:11 PM
I think, that if FS did indeed become AA and start a career as GDA, then it was a combination of her mental instability and her desire to escape the life she had.  Although some of her descriptions have been that she was slow, she was obviously able to fall into a part and play it well.  AS Bear suggests, perhaps she read a great deal about the IF after the accident in the factory, and had a head start on the knowledge she would need later to become Anastasia.  

I think perhaps the con came later, when she had to re-invent herself repeatedly to "stay" Anastasia.  

Fascinating woman regardless.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on April 24, 2005, 12:04:34 AM
My questions would be where and how did she read about the IF, and the intimate information she knew.
While I know it solves nothing, and she still is not AN.

How much was really known or could have be known
by a Polish/German factory worker, farm girl, possible rudimentary education.   Emotional problems, let's also not forget that factory work in those days was more like a 12 hour day....  

Where would she get the time and the money to buy the reading material.    Just curious.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on April 24, 2005, 12:09:37 AM
Quote
My questions would be where and how did she read about the IF, and the intimate information she knew.
While I know it solves nothing, and she still is not AN.

How much was really known or could have be known
by a Polish/German factory worker, farm girl, possible rudimentary education.   Emotional problems, let's also not forget that factory work in those days was more like a 12 hour day....  

Where would she get the time and the money to buy the reading material.    Just curious.


All good questions. The question is, how do we find the answers? I do think she got some coaching, but not until after she had supporters. So how did she learn as much as she did so that she was able to convince her supporters? Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on April 24, 2005, 12:16:43 AM
Yes it makes sense Lexi.  BUT how much was actually known about the IF in those days between 1918 and 1920 when she was found and taken to Dalldorf.

Of course she had coaching at some point, we know after Gleb Botkin came on to the scene after 1926/28, but little is known of how she came about her information before that point in time.

As I have said in earlier thread, if she was a fraud, she was a great actress, truly believed in her part and how
she played it, and what a life long performance.  There must have been some emotional/mental unbalance or
instability that would take over in a person and allow this identity to take over their lives.  Interesting.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on April 24, 2005, 01:52:03 AM
Quote
Yes it makes sense Lexi.  BUT how much was actually known about the IF in those days between 1918 and 1920 when she was found and taken to Dalldorf.

Of course she had coaching at some point, we know after Gleb Botkin came on to the scene after 1926/28, but little is known of how she came about her information before that point in time.

 Interesting.


You said it better than I did. That is the point I was trying to make. How did she get the information before Botkin came along? Do you know if any of the medical records from the assylum were preserved? Or if they are available for public viewing? I don't imagine they are, but really have no idea.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Forum Admin on April 24, 2005, 10:12:56 AM
It is my understanding that the asylum she was in was filled with old magazines of years past as reading material, many of them with detailed articles about the Russian and other European royal families.  I can't find the source just now, but will look around. Someone else may have it too.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on April 24, 2005, 10:50:52 AM
Well I agree that magazines would be a good source, but for detailed information which she had knowledge of or obatined knowledge of, wouldn't it have to be more than magazines?  Someone had to be coaching her from some point.  

I don't see anyone who is a possible candidate for the job of coach, in those early years, UNLESS, she used the magazines for her base knowledge, learned how to play it up a bit and read people, then once Gleb came along he fed her "memory laspe or loss" with information needed to fill in the blanks...

I wonder if people were just so excited to think that they were meeting the Tsar's only surviving child, they managed to overlook her lack of specific knowledge, but then she is the one who mentioned the 1916 visit of the GD Of Hesse to Russia, when she mentioned in 1925 before Gleb became her mentor.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on April 24, 2005, 11:00:28 AM
Supposedly FS/AA was told by others in the hospital where she was taken after her suicide attempt that she looked like a photo in a German magazine of one of the former Czar's daughters....What else would a sad,hopeless young woman have had to cling to than a faint resemblance to a missing GD?...Very,very little...I don't blame FS/AA...I blame some of those around her who fed her delusions...perhaps for a chance at their own gain....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on April 24, 2005, 01:59:01 PM
Quote
Well I agree that magazines would be a good source, but for detailed information which she had knowledge of or obatined knowledge of, wouldn't it have to be more than magazines?  Someone had to be coaching her from some point.  

I don't see anyone who is a possible candidate for the job of coach, in those early years, UNLESS, she used the magazines for her base knowledge, learned how to play it up a bit and read people, then once Gleb came along he fed her "memory laspe or loss" with information needed to fill in the blanks...

I wonder if people were just so excited to think that they were meeting the Tsar's only surviving child, they managed to overlook her lack of specific knowledge, but then she is the one who mentioned the 1916 visit of the GD Of Hesse to Russia, when she mentioned in 1925 before Gleb became her mentor.


Questions:
What would anyone around her have had to gain by coaching someone so that they could claim to be AN?
Also, what do we know about how much she actually knew before Botkin, or anyone else, came on the scene? Again, what did they have to gain by participating in the fraud?
One thing I always wondered was what kept her alive? I am going to have to work to expalin what I mean here. Let's say (for discussions purposes) AN really did survive. It would seem she would have every reason to keep a low profile out of fear for her life. That seems like a reasonable asusmption to me. Therefore it would seem that if it wasn't safe AA took a huge risk. Yet, as far as I know there were no attempts on her life. So, either her enemies didn't believe her claim and had good reasons not to OR she was a coverup. Used to divert attention while the real AN lived her life out quietly somewhere else. Can anyone make any sense out of what I am saying?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Forum Admin on April 24, 2005, 02:01:56 PM
Quote
UNLESS, she used the magazines for her base knowledge, learned how to play it up a bit and read people, then once Gleb came along he fed her "memory laspe or loss" with information needed to fill in the blanks...

I wonder if people were just so excited to think that they were meeting the Tsar's only surviving child, they managed to overlook her lack of specific knowledge, ...


I think, personally, that this is precisely what happened.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Jutte on April 24, 2005, 02:05:35 PM
i understand, Annie. i've never thought of it that way before. i particularly like your suggestion that AA was a diversion for the real AN.

something i need help with is, why would Gleb or Tatiana Botkin feed AA information. surely they were good friends of the real AN when they were children, and i cant understand why, if an impostor of a childhood friend showed up, they would help this person in their claims.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Lanie on April 24, 2005, 02:07:19 PM
The Botkins were not as close to the children as they would want everyone to believe.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Jutte on April 24, 2005, 02:18:58 PM
ah, i didn't know that. i thought they were childhood friends from what sources say. particularly the pro AA ones. then if they weren't close to AN, what did they stand to gain by feeding AA info. were they under the dillusion that if she was believed she would inherit a fortune to which they would benefit?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Lanie on April 24, 2005, 03:33:03 PM
Most likely, yes. That's what I think, at any rate.  A lot of the information AA spouted was wrong.  It reminds me of those psychics, those sorts of people.  They've got such great poker faces!  "So it's your...f...mother!" and they can just read faces like that, realizing recognition in the person they're talking to.  Wow, that made no sense, but I had this long discussion about this last night with someone.   ;D  AA seemed IMO to have been like that; gleaning information from people that way, etc.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Alice on April 24, 2005, 06:27:44 PM
Quote
The Botkins were not as close to the children as they would want everyone to believe.


Yes, and it's a common misconception that they were close to the Imperial children. I've posted numerous times on various threads, requesting photos of Gleb or Tatiana Botkin with any of the Imperial children, and I've never seen one. Why? Because there aren't any - they weren't that close.

It also annoys me when people dispute Olga Alexandrovna's testimony about AA, because "she hadn't seen Anastasia since 1911". These same people then go on to use Gleb and Tatiana Botkin's testimonies as evidence of AA's claim. Olga Alexandrovna was both related to Anastasia, and there are numerous photos of the two together.  ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Lanie on April 24, 2005, 06:29:33 PM
Olga A. saw Anastasia last in 1916. :)  I've never heard people say 1911...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Alice on April 24, 2005, 06:30:58 PM
Quote
Olga A. saw Anastasia last in 1916. :)  I've never heard people say 1911...


All the more reason not to discount Olga Alexadrovna's testimony! (And possibly I'm mistaken about people saying 1911!)  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: niteshade1312 on April 25, 2005, 05:36:27 AM
I am so glad there is a thread detailing this. I think that AA was an amazing 'character' and even though I still can't make up my mind whether she was AR, even though all the DNA and bones show that she isn't, I just can't get my head around the fact that she had so many physical similarities like the foot tubercolosis, which I have read somewhere, with the development of AA's foot, it could only have started from birth!

I think it would have been nice to have had AA actually be AR, but again this has created a wonderful historical debate!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Olga on April 25, 2005, 06:27:10 AM
Quote
I just can't get my head around the fact that she had so many physical similarities like the foot tubercolosis....


Hallux valgus?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 25, 2005, 07:59:07 AM
Quote

Hallux valgus?


About 50% of women have some form of hallux valgus, so not such an amazing coincidence after all...  ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on April 25, 2005, 11:08:56 AM
Quote

Hallux valgus?

I realize hallux valgus is ususally caused by wearing tight fighting shoes that constrict the foot, but I also thought that this was a herditary condition. Does anyone know>
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: niteshade1312 on April 25, 2005, 08:39:02 PM
I did read that it was a hereditory foot condition and that some doctor (can't remember who) said that AA must have had it from a young age because of how developed it had become.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on April 25, 2005, 09:38:00 PM
Quote
I did read that it was a hereditory foot condition and that some doctor (can't remember who) said that AA must have had it from a young age because of how developed it had become.

Then I wonder who else in her family had it?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on April 25, 2005, 09:52:43 PM
Quote
Then I wonder who else in her family had it?


Hereditary doesn't always mean that someone in the immediate family would have it. It could be going back many generations. Besides, hallux vagus may not even be hereditary, they are not sure... I think the argument that it was inherent in Anastasia is exaggerated...

"What is it? Hallux valgus, often referred to as "a bunion" is a deformity of the big toe. The toe tilts over towards the smaller toes and a bony lump appears on the inside of the foot. (A bony lump on the top of the big toe joint is usually due to a different condition, called hallux rigidus.) Sometimes a soft fluid swelling develops over the bony lump. The bony lump is the end of the "knuckle-bone" of the big toe (the first metatarsal bone) which becomes exposed as the toe tilts out of place.

Are bunions hereditary?
Bunions tend to run in families, but that does not mean that if you have a bunion, your children will inevitably have one too.. The connection may be that bunions are a bit commoner in people with unusually flexible joints, and this can be hereditary. They are also commoner in women than in men.
 
What about shoes?
Bunions do occur in cultures in which shoes are not worn, but much less commonly. Shoes which squeeze the big toe or do not fit properly, or have an excessively high heel, can probably help to cause the deformity especially in people who are at higher risk anyway. "
(http://www.bofss.org.uk/html/hallux_valgus.shtml)


"More than half the women in America have bunions, a common deformity often blamed on wearing tight, narrow shoes, and high heels. Bunions may occur in families, but many are from wearing tight shoes. Nine out of ten bunions happen to women. Nine out of ten women wear shoes that are too small. Too-tight shoes can also cause other disabling foot problems like corns, calluses and hammertoes." (http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?Thread_ID=204&topcategory=Foot)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on April 25, 2005, 11:17:54 PM
Thank you Helen. I didn't think it was anyone in the immediate family or we would have known. But it sounds like heredity plays only a small part if any at all.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on April 28, 2005, 02:37:10 PM
It was something that Penny mentioned some months ago about the timeline and how certain facts about FS [Franziska Schanzkowsky] didn't seem to match certain facts about AA.  An example used was the birth of a child because this process took about nine months.  Since then I've been thinking about the various timelines of  FS and AA.  Let's just assume for this thread only that we've never heard of AA and that we are trying to discover for an article the life of one Franziska Schanzkowky.

Let's make a list of what we know.

According to Penny and others we know FS was born  16 Dec 1896.

-----
Family chart

   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek  
 Issue:  [unknown]  
 
   
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna __NN__ b. 1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Mother remarried to ___NN___]    
     Issue:  
    2. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895  
    3. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896  
     ?.*  Gertrude S.  b. poss. 12 Nov  1898 m. ____ Ellerick
                  Children:
                    1) Gertrud Ellerick m. __ Maucher  Child was:
                                (1) Carl Maucher
                    2)  Hedwig Ellerick m.  __ Lander
                     3) Margarete Ellerick   
                    4) Magdalene Ellrick m. __ Weber  Child was:
                                (1) Herbert Weber
    
   4.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899  
    5.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901  
    6.  Felix S. b. 17 February 1903  
    7. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905  
   
 ---  
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3)?? to  ___NN3___    
 Issue:    
   1. [unknown]    
 
NOTES
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown and place in families above is at this time is not known, however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 12 Nov 1898 which would place her fourth between FS and Michael.

-----

[ I just noticed the chart I pulled doesn't have the place where FS was born.  I'll go find that data and bring it here.]

On 13 Aug 1920 the Berlin police told the  FS's family that she had been a victim of the serial killer Karl Grossmann.

This thread should not get into any discussions that you believe FS was AA.  This is not about AA or AA being FS.

The boundaries of the timeline are:
16 Dec 1896 to 8 PM  [Berlin time] on18 Feb. 1920.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on April 28, 2005, 03:33:00 PM
Timeline #1

>>>1896<<<
Date  of birth:
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.

>>>1914<<<
"In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory."

>>>1916<<<

___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front."
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane

>>>19??<<<
"Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library"

1919
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family

>>> 1920<<<
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS

Date reported missing:
9 March 1920:  "...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"
Source:  http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on April 28, 2005, 03:34:16 PM
Quote
...[in part]...

 FS WAS declared insane on 9/19/1916, and while the two, Gertrude and FS,  were living together.) So, who knows what else they deemed private and off limits?    
 


Anyone have the source for this date?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on April 28, 2005, 04:12:50 PM
Quote
jeremygaleaz: >>FS WAS declared insane on 9/19/1916, and while the two, Gertrude and FS,  were living together.) So, who knows what else they deemed private and off limits? <<

Was this declaration after the explosion in the factory?

How long were Gertrude and FS rooming together?

AGRBear     
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on April 28, 2005, 04:31:19 PM
Quote
Robert Massie gave a fairly good overview of the Schanzkowski family in "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" and he's definitely an author who never believed in Anna Anderson.

Here's the relevant excerpt, from page 249 of the hardcover edition:
"Who was Franziska Schanzkowska, the woman who for over sixty years had claimed to be Grand Duchess Anastasia? She was born in 1896 in the Prussian province of Posen, adjacent to the border with Poland, which was then a part of the Russian Empire. Two hundreds years before, her family had belonged to lesser Polish nobility, but by the end of the nineteenth century, the family were farmworkers. Franziska's father, an impoverished alcoholic, died when his children were young. In the village where she grew up, Franziska always was different and solitary. She did not make friends, and she tried especially to distance herself from her sisters by assuming what they considered an affected, upper-class manner. At harvesttime, when the entire village was out in the fields bringing in hay, Franziska would be found lying in a cart reading books on history.
   " 'My Auntie Franziska was the cleverest of the four children,' " said Waltraud Schanzkowska, a resident of Hamburg. " 'She didn't want to be be buried in a little one-horse town. She wanted to come out into the world, to become an actress -- something special.' " In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory. In 1916, the young man was killed on the western front. Soon afterward, Franziska let a grenade slip from her hands on the assembly line. It exploded nearby, inflicting splinter wounds on her head and other parts of her body and eviscerating a foreman, who died before her eyes. She was sent to a sanitarium, where her physical injuries healed but the shock remained. Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library. In February 1920, her favorite brother, Felix, received a last message from her. On February 17, 1920, she disappeared."

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on April 28, 2005, 06:10:04 PM
Quote

Annie, per Klier & Mingay on page 223, "Franziska Schanzkowska was born on 16 December 1896, in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire.   ...Her father married twice, and she was a child of the second marriage and close to her brother Felix.  The first family was very religious and straightlaced, while Franziska and Felix were more openminded."

So she was one of the younger children, not the older...

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on April 29, 2005, 10:49:28 AM
Quote
She was one of the younger children, not the older


We now see from the other lists that she was indeed one of the older, second born. So Klier and Mingay were mistaken, or had made an incorrect assumption. That is the only source I ever saw that in, so without any backup, I now completely discard it as viable evidence.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on April 29, 2005, 12:14:31 PM
Annie, as I've asked, please do not bring the discussion of FS being AA or or AA not being GD Anastasia into this thread.



AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on May 02, 2005, 12:28:31 PM
Quote

Anyone have the source for this date?

AGRBear


I believe that in Massie's book they mention 1916, but not the specific date.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 03, 2005, 11:18:09 AM
"...a Polish factory worker named Franziska Schanzkowska, who had been reported missing in Berlin during March 1920."

p. 105 THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA by Klier and Mingay
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 03, 2005, 11:34:16 AM
I assume this is a copy of a copy but this one does show the entire photo of FS in Summers and Mangold book called The File on the Tsar.

Franziska Schanzkowska's Photograph:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSManSumBK1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSMangSum2.jpg)
                           Enlarged the upper part of the same photo^^.

From Helen:
(http://img136.exs.cx/img136/8238/fs4uw.jpg)



AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 03, 2005, 12:00:17 PM
p. 250 Massie's THE ROMANOVS THE FINAL CHAPTER tells us:

In February 1920 her favorite brother, Felix, received a last message from her.  On Februrary 17, 1920 she disappered."

From what I understand,  Felix's birthday was the 17 of Feb. 1920 and he did recieve a birthday card from FS, however, she was not reported missing, according to Klier and Mengay until March of 1920.

Anyonbe have any farther information on these dates?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 03, 2005, 01:47:19 PM
In ANASTAISIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Peter Kurth there is a section called "The Trails--First Instance (19958-1961).

Starting on p. 307 there is presented to us a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where thye had found employment as domestic servnats.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road'..."

Book doesn't tell us anything about Grandsitzki and why the lawyers of AA thought he was a credible witness.  Farther investigation went into the various ships by that name and there was some attempt to find the road in London and there were many roads, lanes etc., it seems.

Nothing more is said in the book.

I have no idea what kind of weight this witness had upon the court.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on May 03, 2005, 06:52:41 PM
Wow...I don't think I'd seen the FS pic before....

Does anyone else think FS,AA,AM had very strangely shaped lips....?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Denise on May 03, 2005, 08:11:10 PM
Quote
Wow...I don't think I'd seen the FS pic before....

Does anyone else think FS,AA,AM had very strangely shaped lips....?

 
Yes, she does.  That is one of those things that is the same in the AA/FS pix that is hard to disguise.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Alice on May 03, 2005, 11:31:27 PM
Quote
I assume this is a copy of a copy but this one does show the entire photo of FS in Summers and Mangold book called The File on the Tsar.

Franziska Schanzkowska's Photograph:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSManSumBK1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSMangSum2.jpg)
                            Enlarged the upper part of the same photo^^.

From Helen:
(http://img136.exs.cx/img136/8238/fs4uw.jpg)



AGRBear


It's still very obvious that FS = AA, even with the poor quality of the photo. Look at the hairline. Identical to the photos of AA on the other thread.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 04, 2005, 10:02:37 AM
Alice, I'm sorry, but I need to remind you that this thread isn't about FS being AA.

There are many threads where this debate is taking place.

This thread is just about FS from the time she was born until she disapeared.

The boundaries of the timeline are:
16 Dec 1896 to 8 PM  [Berlin time] on18 Feb. 1920.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 04, 2005, 10:03:47 AM
Timeline #1
 
>>>1896<<<
Date  of birth:
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.
 
>>>1914<<<
"In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory."
 
>>>1916<<<
 
___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front."  
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane
 
>>>19??<<<
"Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library"  
 
1919
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS
 
Date reported missing:
March 1920

July 1920: a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where thye had found employment as domestic servnats.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road


13 Aug 1920 :  Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 13, 2005, 07:36:43 AM
A couple of new threads were started about this same topic, so I am bumping this one up  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 13, 2005, 07:39:52 AM
Quote
Let's start with the premise that AA and FS are the same person. From there, maybe we could talk about how FS started this whole AA thing. We could explore who/what motivated her to pull off the hoax of the century. Who gained for her claim? Who lost from her claim.


Quote
I have been wondering, since Peter Kurth relates details AA gave the nurses at Dalldorf about the muders (that we now know to be true) where she might have gotten the info.  

I am NOT too interested in any Cheka plot theories, I am looking to discuss this in a realistic fashion.  Anyone have any ideas where FS may have gotten more details about the murders?  After all, wasn't what happened to the IF still pretty hush hush outside of Russia at this point?  

One thing I read about FS is that after Mrs Wingender took her in as a charity case (after the munitions factory explosion and FS breakdown) she spent a lot of time in her room reading books.  This may explain some of her info on court life, but not all.  

Anyone willing to discuss these ideas?

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on May 13, 2005, 09:40:30 AM
Yes, I started this one awhile back. Regardless of what some say of me, even I would like answers to some of the unsolved questions, and  to know how she pulled it off. I see nothing wrong with investigating the mysteries around this case as long as it's to ask how FRANZISKA was able to fool so many, and not to doubt AA's identity. That has been proven.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2005, 12:27:54 PM
Here is the quote from the book about FS  being a victim of Grossmann:

Quote

..[in part]....

Since  all I have is a 3/4 page mention of Grossmann from a book about murderers, Encyclopedia of Murder by Wilson and Pitman, I can't give you much more than I already have.

p. 243-4

"GROSSMANN, Georg Karl

"German mass-murderer, born in Neurueppin in 1863, who, like Denke, commited sudice before his execution."

"The case has many resemblances to the Denke murders.  In August 1921 the owner of a top-storey flat in Berlin near the Silesian railway terminus heard sounds of a sstruggle coming from the kitchen and called police. They found on Grossmann's kitchen bed (camp bed) the trussed-up carcass of a recently killed girl.....  He picked up girls with great regularity (in fact, he seldom spent a night alone).  He killed many of these sleeping partners and sold the bodies for meat, disposing the unsaleable parts in the river.  (The case becme known as the Die Braut auf der Stulle-- 'the bread and butter brides', since a companion for the night is known as a 'bride' in Germany.) At the time of his arrest, evidence was found which indicated that three women had been killed and dismembered in the past three weeks."

"...It is of interest that Grossmann was indirectly invovled in the famous 'Anastasia case....  At one point it was annouced that "Anastasia" was really an imposter named Franziska Schamzkovski, a Polish girl from Buetow in Pomerania.  Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... "

"...The number of his victims will never be known, but they may well have exceeded Haarmann's total of fifty, since he was 'in business' throughout the war until 1921...."

AGRBear


>>Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... <<

For those who notice the different spelling of the name of FS, there was a huge discussion about this and I pointed everyone toward a site that gives different spellings of the same name, Schanzkowsky, and, Penny, if I remember, said the spelling might be Chenskowski or was it Censkowski.  Penny will need to restate the name because I may be a little off....

So,  if FS was not AA and still alive, where was she from late Feb or March until Aug.??  Did she go to London and discover she didn't like the work, return and near the train station did  Grossmann  take advantage of her, take her up to his apartment and kill her???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2005, 12:34:47 PM
on May 16th, 2005, 10:55pm, Michael G. wrote:
Penny these transcripts are in German?

 
Penny Ans:  Yes, they are in German.
----
 
on May 16th, 2005, 10:55pm, Michael G. wrote:
At what point was the Shanzkowski family told of the ressurrection of their daughter/sister FS as AA, and their reaction?  My assumption here is that Berlin police were pretty sure of the fact that FS was murdered by Grossman.

 
Penny Ans: They were sure enough to have told the Schanzkowsky family that she was a Grossmann victim in -- I think -- the mid-twenties.  They certainly believed it until Fraulein Unbekannt's case came to haunt them.  Their individual reactions really aren't recorded in the court investigator's report -- but they did cooperate with him totally in answering questions and providing evidence and details.    
 
The family members who participated in the investigator's enquiries were Mrs, Felix, Valerian and Maria Julianna.  Gertrude's husband wouldn't allow her to be questioned because she was very "emotional" -- for that we might be able to read "pregnant," as I believe Gertrude's daughter was born around this time.
 -----

on May 16th, 2005, 10:55pm, Michael G. wrote:
Is there any chance of ever getting a look at the files or file regarding FS in the Grossman case, and what evidence they had if any other than her name badly written in his dairy, or what is purported to be her name.


Penny Ans: I don't know, beyond what Greg and I might reproduce in our book.  Anything we have that we don't use will be available -- but the owner of the copy we used is not so much interested in the FS/AA side of the case as he is in the police-work side.  Old investigations are his area of interest...

IP Logged
----

This thread was locked down so I can't pull the direct quotes over to here.

I thought the information about FS was important to bring here to help us in her timeline.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2005, 12:43:32 PM
on May 16th, 2005, 6:19pm, AGRBear wrote:
Have another question.
 
According to someone, there was a statment made that Gertrude lived with FS before FS was committed to an asylum in Sept. of 1916.  Anyone know the source?


 
Penny Ans: The original source for this information is the report made by a court investigator after visiting and interviewing the Schanzkowsky family at home in 1927/28.
 
Remind me in a few days and I will dig it out and post what it had to say on the matter

----
This is an addition 12:44 PM:
Quote

I'm going to throw this out there, though I can't remember for sure where I heard it -- maybe from Ian Lilburn, who attended most of the post-War part of the trial:  He -- or whoever -- said that Franziska was sent to Berlin to work by her mother, who was recently remarried, and who didn't want an attractive teenaged daughter in the house with her new husband.  This could also explain Gertrude's appearance in Berlin shortly thereafter as Franziska's roommate, especially as she was only two years younger than Franziska -- if her birthdate claim is to be believed, and I don't see why not at this point.

The date of Marianne's second marriage might support this -- or disprove it.

I'll have to double-check my source at some point, and I do apologize for not having my notes to hand, but I'm fairly deep into the latest book and have all the Schanzkowsky stuff put away.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2005, 12:51:52 PM
FS was reported missing in March of 1920:

Quote
One report claims that the Wingenders reported FS missing because her rent was late.  This suggests a couple of things:

1. That FS was not a "charity case," though this could have been a misunderstanding of the situation if the Wingenders "charitably" offered to rent a room to FS, either despite or because of her recent troubles.

2. If there was an offer of a rental room for FS in her depleted emotional state, perhaps the Wingender family knew her -- or maybe her deceased fiance --  as a friend or co-worker before her troubles.

3. That if we could determine when rent was traditionally due in the Wingender household, we might more accurately pin-point the time in February/March that FS went missing.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on May 17, 2005, 01:02:47 PM
Quote
on May 16th, 2005, 6:19pm, AGRBear wrote:
Have another question.
 
According to someone, there was a statment made that Gertrude lived with FS before FS was committed to an asylum in Sept. of 1916.  Anyone know the source?


 
Penny Ans: The original source for this information is the report made by a court investigator after visiting and interviewing the Schanzkowsky family at home in 1927/28.
 
Remind me in a few days and I will dig it out and post what it had to say on the matter

----

AGRBear


Bear so what we have is that the family itself seems to be in agreement with the police until the case Fraulein Unbekannt/AA comes up to haunt them.

I know it is going to be tough if near impossible to trace the movements of FS between 1916 - 1920.  With the war, and the fall of the German Empire, and treaty of Versailles and the establishment of Weimar Republic, Germany was in turmoil.

The family seems to have not wanted to be involved and seemed rather hesitant especially in regards to the 1927 & 1938 meetings to become involved in anything other than the official police investigation.  

Your earlier point about WHEN the report of FS being missing was made by the Wingenders in March of 1920 and the pulling of AA from the canal on 17 Feb 1920 is so key to this.  How can one person be in 2 places at the same time.  The report that Wingenders filed and the investigation that followed leading up to the establishment of FS as a Grossman victim by the police, are all very important in this case, the details need to be carefully analyzed.  It's not just enough to say the Wingenders waited 30 days and reported her as missing.  

Also in ROAA it states on pg 166. that Rosa Doris Wingender of the dank gray slums of north Berlin.  That statement shows that Wingenders were not people of the middle class.   Doris also states that FS disappeared from her mothers home in the early months of 1920.  Would we consider early from Jan to Apr of 1920? Or Jan. to March?? It is something very crucial stated on this book ROAA on the same pg 166, about the memory of Doris Wingender, "her prodigious memory was a
source of wonderment to all."  Isn't that odd, someone with a "prodigious memory that was a source of wonderment to all", couldn't give the EXACT date she last saw FS??   Very curious & very telling IMO.
                                 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on May 17, 2005, 03:42:49 PM
Quote
Annie, as I've asked, please do not bring the discussion of FS being AA or or AA not being GD Anastasia into this thread.



AGRBear


When did I do that? I didn't. I simply stated that she was one of the older children, not younger, so that statement in the Klier and Mingay book was incorrect.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2005, 04:09:27 PM
Quote
I have a bear-esque theory for you, bear. How about this: what if FS's baby was actually a girl, and her family adopted her?This sometimes did happen to cover up for illegitimate babies in the old days.  What if this was Margarithe, Karl Maucher's mother? That way, the DNA would have matched even if Gertrude was only a half sister (though I still don't believe the half sister theory myself)

How old was Margarithe? Could she possibly be the right age to have been FS's missing child?


Annie had this posted in the AA, A Timeline For and I asked if it was okay to bring it over to the FS Timeline.

Then Denise posted:
Quote

OOOOOO!!  I like this theory.  I wonder if it would be possible.  Annie, I hate to say it, but I'm impressed!  ;) This is WAY out of the box....



Gertrude S.  b. poss. 12 Nov  1898 m. ____ Ellerick
                   Children:
                     1) Gertrud Ellerick m. __ Maucher  Child was:
                                (1) Carl Maucher  
                     2)  Hedwig Ellerick m.  __ Lander  
                     3) Margarete Ellerick   
                     4) Magdalene Ellrick m. __ Weber  Child was:
                                 (1) Herbert Weber

Does not appear we have any dates for Gertrude, nee  S., Ellerick's children?


AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on May 17, 2005, 05:05:55 PM
on Nov 12th, 2004, 11:44am, AGRBear wrote:

..[in part]....

Since  all I have is a 3/4 page mention of Grossmann from a book about murderers, Encyclopedia of Murder by Wilson and Pitman, I can't give you much more than I already have.

p. 243-4

"GROSSMANN, Georg Karl

"German mass-murderer, born in Neurueppin in 1863, who, like Denke, commited sudice before his execution."

"The case has many resemblances to the Denke murders.  In August 1921 the owner of a top-storey flat in Berlin near the Silesian railway terminus heard sounds of a sstruggle coming from the kitchen and called police. They found on Grossmann's kitchen bed (camp bed) the trussed-up carcass of a recently killed girl.....  He picked up girls with great regularity (in fact, he seldom spent a night alone).  He killed many of these sleeping partners and sold the bodies for meat, disposing the unsaleable parts in the river.  (The case becme known as the Die Braut auf der Stulle-- 'the bread and butter brides', since a companion for the night is known as a 'bride' in Germany.) At the time of his arrest, evidence was found which indicated that three women had been killed and dismembered in the past three weeks."

"...It is of interest that Grossmann was indirectly invovled in the famous 'Anastasia case....  At one point it was annouced that "Anastasia" was really an imposter named Franziska Schamzkovski, a Polish girl from Buetow in Pomerania.  Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... "

"...The number of his victims will never be known, but they may well have exceeded Haarmann's total of fifty, since he was 'in business' throughout the war until 1921...."

AGRBear  


The time frame is essential here.  We know that AA was pulled from Landwerhr Canal on 17 Feb 1920.

She was reported as missing by the Wingenders, but they said she went missing in the early months of 1920

According to Grossmans diary she was murdered on 13 Aug 1920, and that the family believed and fully cooperated with the police in the investigation, and believed she was dead, of course until the case of Fraulein Unbekannt came into the picture.

I have a problem with the sequence of events here....
Something isn't right/kosher, whatever.  If FS is AA and I am just speculating, then of course she would have been missing in the early months of 1920, but why wouldn't the Wingenders have reported her as missing after 24 hours?  She lived in their house.  She took up a room in a home in the dank gray slums of north Berlin.
Wouldn't they have noticed her not coming and going.

Two thoughts come to my mind.  That she really wasn't living there all the time, just stayed with them from time to time, and actually lived somewhere else. Why would you wait 2 to 3 months or so to report someone as missing that was living in your home?   This just doesn't make sense. Why would they wait so long, if FS was a friend or roommate?????????

The second thought is that even if you make allowance for the delay in reporting her missing, is that the moral responsibility would weigh on one's mind. For a person who made such a a name for herself in this particular case Doris Wingender is not telling the truth about something (s) in this case.  

Were they forced by the Schanzkowski's to make a missing person's report?  Were the Schanzkowski's paying her room & board and after not hearing from her tell the Wingenders produce FS or go to the police??

There is something very wrong with this timeline  IMO.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 18, 2005, 10:04:49 AM
We can think of this in a different way.

Maybe FS didn't return one day  and the Wingenders did not mention this to FS mother, who's new husband may have been paying for the rent.  And, so the Wingenders continued to collect the rent money..... So when they were asked about FS they said something like, "We realized she was missing when we went to  ask for the overdue payment....."   No.  That's not right either.  If FS's family were sending money it wasn't directly to the Wingenders.... But then, I guess it wouldn't need to be if the mailman dropped all the mail off with the Wingenders.... But that is a real stretch and I haven't a shred of evidence to prove the Wingenders would have pilfered the money sent to the absent FS....  From where I'm sitting, it was FS who was paying for her own rent.  She was no longer at the factory.  So, where was she working?  

Had she been working as a domestic in someone's home where she met other girls who were talking about going to London just as the witness Bruno G. said in his statement in court.....???

In ANASTAISIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Peter Kurth there is a section called "The Trails--First Instance (1958-1961).
 
Starting on p. 307 there is presented to us a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where they had found employment as domestic servants.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road'..."

Perhaps when she got to London, her new place of employment wasn't what it had claimed to be.  And, when she looked around she didn't see anything that she liked.... Maybe, she became homesick... And returned to Berlin .... That would have been around late July or early Aug.

This fits into the timeline since Grossmann's diary has the date of 13 Aug. 1920 the day he killed someone with a name that sounded to his German ears as "Sasnovski".....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on May 18, 2005, 10:16:13 AM
Quote
This fits into the timeline since Grossmann's diary has the date of 13 Aug. 1920 the day he killed someone with a name that sounded to his German ears as "Sasnovski".....

AGRBear


No, it doesn't. She was reported missing in March. That says August. There is no clue as to her whereabouts in the meantime, therefore, I am still very inclined to believe she was in the asylum as FU.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 18, 2005, 10:22:01 AM
If Bruno G. met FS, then we know where FS was in July of 1920 and if she went on a boat to England then back that would have been the end of July or Aug of 1920.

We would not know where FS was from March to July...

She didn't return to the Wingenders nor her family....

Wonder what the cost of the fare was from Danzig  port to London?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on May 18, 2005, 10:31:42 AM
Quote

No, it doesn't. She was reported missing in March. That says August. There is no clue as to her whereabouts in the meantime, therefore, I am still very inclined to believe she was in the asylum as FU.


We don't know when she was reported as missing, as Doris Wingender states, she disappears in the early months of 1920.   I have not read any source as March
of 1920 as Doris Wingender reporting her disappearance.  If you have the source of the date reporting her disappearance in 1920 then please share it with us.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on May 18, 2005, 10:39:07 AM
Every source I've seen HERE always says March, and people use that to say there was a gap between that and Feb. 20, to which I always say, her family didn't miss her for awhile because they didn't have daily contact. Then I make the speech about Michael Jordan's father. It's been done many, many times.

While I have always dismissed the "Grossman" theory, since FS was proven to be AA by DNA, and the issue was never brought up in the long trial and investigation, and the name was wrong, I never noticed it was August before! That, along with the fact that she was AA and there being no evidence whatsoever that Grossman killed her, makes me more convinced than ever this 'Grossman' thing is a waste of time, barking up the wrong tree.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 18, 2005, 11:00:17 AM
FS sent a birthday wish to Felix, her brother, who received it on or about 17 Feb 1920

****AA jumped into the canal and was placed in a hospital on 18 Feb. 1920 and then sent to Dalldorf Asylum.

FS was reported to the police as missing in March by the Wingenders.

Burno G. testified in court that he met FS in Danzig where she and some girlfriends were about to go to London and this was July of 1920.

The police told FS's family that they believed FS was killed 13 Aug 1920 by Grossmann.



AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on May 18, 2005, 11:05:46 AM
Quote
Every source I've seen HERE always says March, and people use that to say there was a gap between that and Feb. 20, to which I always say, her family didn't miss her for awhile because they didn't have daily contact. Then I make the speech about Michael Jordan's father. It's been done many, many times.

While I have always dismissed the "Grossman" theory, since FS was proven to be AA by DNA, and the issue was never brought up in the long trial and investigation, and the name was wrong, I never noticed it was August before! That, along with the fact that she was AA and there being no evidence whatsoever that Grossman killed her, makes me more convinced than ever this 'Grossman' thing is a waste of time, barking up the wrong tree.


Well that is not exactly a source then is it? I would for my own purposes like to know at WHAT DATE, this woman who made many wonder with her prodigious memory in this case reported FS as missing, when the Wingenders reported her is crucial to ANY time line. Can anyone help here?  I know ROAA doesn't seem to name the date.  It just says "early months of 1920".

As far as the Grossman theory goes, the August date is interesting, at this point IMO it doesn't prove or disprove anything.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on May 18, 2005, 11:11:28 AM
From bear's timeline:

Quote
Timeline #1


Date reported missing:
March 1920

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jaa on May 18, 2005, 11:13:58 AM
From Peter Kurth's website:

"...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"

http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on May 18, 2005, 11:15:39 AM
Quote
From bear's timeline:




Yes Annie, I saw that, while I am not personally disputing YOU, I am questioning this date.  I would like to know when Doris reported her as missing, exactly when the report was filed with the police.  

Here is the problem Annie, for these questions to disappear, and for DNA to become the only answer to this and to rid yourselves of the doubting Thomas's such as me, and our skepticism, then these questions need specific answers.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on May 18, 2005, 11:16:28 AM
Quote
From Peter Kurth's website:

"...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"

http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm



Thank you Jaa, that is what I needed.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 18, 2005, 02:53:44 PM
Let me see, if we use the 18th of Feb. as a base for FS, if she was AA, then she was missing from the Wingender room from the 18th of Feb. to the 9th of March when the report was made.

That is 23 days.

That's almost a month.

However, if we speculate that the Wingenders were not as close of friends and this wasn't a charity cases because FS was paying full rent, then we might assume the rent was due on the 1st of every month.  Not paid on the 1st, the Wingenders would have contacted FS's family and then there would be the return letter .... I assume the letter was quickly returned since this is telling the family FS isn't where she is suppose to have been.  9 days doesn't seem unreasonable.

My problem with this is that the Wingenders make it appear they are close to FS and know her movements to the library, the headaches, the pill popping, and the "I'm to sick to work" act....
So, I think, if this is true then 23 days is a long time to be missing before a report is made.

What is everyone else's thoughts on this?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on May 18, 2005, 03:06:24 PM
Okay bear, my thoughts: you already know my thoughts on the family, they weren't in close contact and it took awhile to miss her. As for Doris, it could be because as long as no rent was due, she figured wherever FS went was none of her business, but when it was almost a month and she wanted her payment, she did something. It could be too that she wasn't concerned at first, thinking maybe she was just off with some man she met, and didn't want to be 'paranoid' and assume something bad had happened to her, but after all that time she must have felt she needed to try to find her.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 19, 2005, 09:51:32 AM
New Timeline List - 18 May 2005 
 
>>>1896<<<
Date  of birth:
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.
 
>>>1914<<<
"In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory."
 
>>>1916<<<
 
___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front."  
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane
 
>>>19??<<<
"Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library"  
 
1919
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS
 
Date reported missing:
9 March 1920:  "...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on May 19, 2005, 10:00:22 AM
Does anyone know if there were any reports of the "Jane Doe" pulled from the canal in the local newspapers, or were there too many refugees in Europe at that time to give that much attention to any one in particular?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: rskkiya on May 19, 2005, 11:02:51 AM
Annie
I imagine that Fransiska went through some sort of emotional and mental crisis and by subconciously *rejecting* her life (failed suicide) she opted for 'another one' ... I DONT think that she 'planned to become Anastasia' but her familiarity with some history made her assuption a wee bit more easy.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on May 19, 2005, 04:26:01 PM
Very possible! Good idea!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 23, 2005, 08:36:25 PM
..Date reported missing:  
9 March 1920:  "...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'<<

Have I assumed that March 9th was the date she was reported missing, or, have I misread this and did the Wingenders say she as last seen on March 9th???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on May 25, 2005, 11:58:24 AM
For those who continued to believe FS is AA, can you tell me when the following injuries occured in FS's Timeline?

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;acti on=display;num=1075191962;start=125  
 
Greg King's post #132:  
 
...[in part]...
 
>>I suggest you check Peter's book on this issue-Anastasia Manahan had extensive previous facial injuries when first examined in 1920, including the right side of her mouth and right jaw having been subjected to repeated blows that knocked teeth out and actually fractured or broke bones-this is why in the first photos of her she always was faced to the left, and even hid the right side of her jaw.  These were injuries estimated as having been a few years old by the doctors who examined her, and had obviously healed somewhat, but the effect remained-even as an old lady she still spoke with a handkerchief held up to the right side of her mouth.   
   
Greg King<<
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on June 17, 2005, 04:38:33 PM
Some intersting posts being written under DNA by Richard Schweitzer, who married Marina Botkin.  In one of his posts he tells us more about FS's family background:

Quote
Here at 12:47 a m June17, 2005, I find myself seeing these posts for the first time. I have not finished reading them all.

That said, I should point out what some of my subsequent investigation has disclosed that might be of interest.

The "Polish" family from which Karl Maucher is purported (but not scientifically proved) to descend was actually of Frisian origin, Mennonites, who settled in and drained the lowlands of that area of Poland. These were Kashuban ((Kaszubski) who spoke a dialect of Old Dutch. So, Polish data bases (unless from descendents of those same settlors) would not be any more applicable than other Caucasians.

That family was extensively researched in a German Eugenics study made in the '40s re: Inherited Criminality (none found).


I will try to add more later this day
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on June 20, 2005, 04:22:13 PM
I personally reviewed copies of all the marriage, birth and baptismal records known to exist in May 2000, plus information taken from Pomerm after removal from their original Parishes (Catholic). At that time, there were no time line records for Gertrude Ellerick. which had been the goad for my investigation carried out in Europe.

When time permits, I will see what my notes show.

However, since that date many records have been consolidated from the provinces in Poland into a national archive, and it is possible that Records showing the time line place of Gertrude can now be established.

That said, if one checks also, in those periods (time-line), the "descent" of the father's status and what appeared to be a reputation for philandery, a plausible question arises as to whether he was required to "take in" a child from an outside affair. It is quite far-fetched to consider, but did happen in those communities.

As I have noted, the S family was studied intensively by German Eugenicists looking at the question of inheritable criminal tendencies. The study has been published and may contain some time-lines, but from my quick scan of the text, none seemed pertinent. However, Penny Wilson may know more.

Please note that the "Time-Lines" are evidence, and the sources (and how the sources were determined) are critical.

RRS
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2005, 04:36:27 PM
Needed to bring this thread forward since the e-mail from Dr. Ginther talks about the Schanskowska family and his tests.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 09, 2005, 06:10:40 PM
This is an absolutely fascinating thread.  

Is it just me, though, or have all or most of Penny Wilson's posts been erased?

When is the Penny Wilson/Greg King book being published and what is the specific topic of the book?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on July 09, 2005, 11:57:45 PM
Quote
This is an absolutely fascinating thread.  

Is it just me, though, or have all or most of Penny Wilson's posts been erased?

When is the Penny Wilson/Greg King book being published and what is the specific topic of the book?



Greg & Penny offered an insight to actual research being done in archives in Russia, Germany, Poland, and gave us a chance to participate offer opinions, and there are those who wanted them off of these boards for reasons that are known to their "clique".  However at one time Penny removed a great many of her posts,
and then she came back.  Perhaps she will be interested in some of what has been going on here & will post again as some of us hope that Greg will.

I think their book will be ready in 3-4 years.  Hopefully not that long, but worth waiting for.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 10, 2005, 12:10:56 AM
Wow.  I haven't seen this many cliques since junior high school.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on July 10, 2005, 12:31:55 AM
Quote
Wow.  I haven't seen this many cliques since junior high school.


You just said a mouthful!!! ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 10, 2005, 08:15:50 PM
Quote


Greg & Penny offered an insight to actual research being done in archives in Russia, Germany, Poland, and gave us a chance to participate offer opinions, and there are those who wanted them off of these boards for reasons that are known to their "clique".  However at one time Penny removed a great many of her posts,
and then she came back.  Perhaps she will be interested in some of what has been going on here & will post again as some of us hope that Greg will.

I think their book will be ready in 3-4 years.  Hopefully not that long, but worth waiting for.


Michael, Do you know the topic of their next book?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Abby on July 10, 2005, 09:10:44 PM
They are writing a book about Fransizka S; apparently with evidence suggesting that Anna Anderson and FS were not one in the same.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on July 10, 2005, 10:17:22 PM
Quote

Michael, Do you know the topic of their next book?



Lexi, I believe it is a one word title, but for the life of me I cannot recall what it was.  If I find the working title among my PM's I will post it for you.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 10, 2005, 11:08:09 PM
Quote


Lexi, I believe it is a one word title, but for the life of me I cannot recall what it was.  If I find the working title among my PM's I will post it for you.

Thank you. Do you know what it will be about?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 10, 2005, 11:43:58 PM
Quote
Thank you. Do you know what it will be about?



No-one knows what it will be about.   8)   ;D  

The Pretenders won't happen for a few years yet -- there's a lot of travel and research yet to do, and in these Pretender cases especially, we have to be sure to do as thorough and complete a job as we did with FOTR.

We have a bio of Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig underway, and also there is a new book, the subject of which recently presented itself, and about which I can say nothing until all the details are ironed out.

Greg also has his book on the Court of Nicholas II coming soon -- this one is in production.

So I don't know which one with be out first -- but whichever it is, I think you'll like it!   ;)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 10, 2005, 11:47:48 PM
Nice to "meet" you, Penny Wilson!  I look forward to whatever you publish next.

And of course, I hope you will publish soon.

If you need more ideas, I've got a great new theory which I just outlined in brief in the Questions for Dr. Ginther thread.  <grin>
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 10, 2005, 11:52:00 PM
Quote
Nice to "meet" you, Penny Wilson!  I look forward to whatever you publish next.

And of course, I hope you will publish soon.


And it's nice to "meet" you too!  I hope that we will publish soon, also!

It's actually work on the books that keeps me out of the forums, and nothing else.  It's pretty hectic, but I love the work...

Quote
If you need more ideas, I've got a great new theory which I just outlined in brief in the Questions for Dr. Ginther thread.  <grin>


Theories, theories, theories -- gotta love them!  And gotta track them down and either pinch them off, or investigate them as possibilities.  Theories are good...   :D  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 11, 2005, 12:07:23 AM
Yes, but MY theory is unique.......
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Mgmstl on July 11, 2005, 08:52:29 AM
Quote


No-one knows what it will be about.   8)   ;D  

The Pretenders won't happen for a few years yet -- there's a lot of travel and research yet to do, and in these Pretender cases especially, we have to be sure to do as thorough and complete a job as we did with FOTR.

We have a bio of Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig underway, and also there is a new book, the subject of which recently presented itself, and about which I can say nothing until all the details are ironed out.

Greg also has his book on the Court of Nicholas II coming soon -- this one is in production.

So I don't know which one with be out first -- but whichever it is, I think you'll like it!   ;)




Penny, thank you.  I couldn't for the life of me think of the name of your book.  I kept thinking "Survivor"....
and knew it was wrong. :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 11, 2005, 11:59:31 AM
Quote

Penny, thank you.  I couldn't for the life of me think of the name of your book.  I kept thinking "Survivor"....
and knew it was wrong. :)


You know, at one time, the word "survivor" did figure into our working title -- but then we had these mental images of sixteen or so claimants, abandoned on a desert island, split into two teams, and forced by Jeff Probst to engage in endless stupid competitions until in the end, there was ONE...SOLE....SURVIVOR    ::)

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 11, 2005, 06:06:39 PM
Quote

You know, at one time, the word "survivor" did figure into our working title -- but then we had these mental images of sixteen or so claimants, abandoned on a desert island, split into two teams, and forced by Jeff Probst to engage in endless stupid competitions until in the end, there was ONE...SOLE....SURVIVOR    ::)



OMG...now THAT would be programming... ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 11, 2005, 07:20:32 PM
Wouldn't it?

Because you know they'd really go Lord of the Flies on each other!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 11, 2005, 07:44:50 PM
I started to write here after you and Greg left, so I don't "know" you. I'm so glad you returned here! I'm an historian from Argentina, and I'm happy to be able to discuss things and theories with you for you does ACTUAL research with documents and interview with people who really knew the Romanovs, etc.

 I'm one of those who still believes that AA, FS, Philipp Grigorievich Semionov and other pretenders case's must be still discussed. I have to many questions ...To many to consider this subject closed and said: " All the Imperial Family dead this July 1918 nigh", or AA was indeed FS, or any other thing like that...But it's really hard to keep this way of analyze things for...most people said you are guilible, a dreamer, a girlie wanting a fairy-tale story end, at so. (Well; when I was a girl I really believed that the whole family has dead together and only when I became more mature I realized that I had more questions than sure knowledge about the whole thing...And started to doubt. )

So; congratulations! I know how hard historical research is, how much money and time it consumes, and how hard is to stand things that people don't really wants to know, for they disturb their quiet lifes.

Courage! Go ahead! History is hard, but it's really beatiful. I wouldn't like to be other than an historian.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 11, 2005, 07:48:45 PM
I just set up a new "general discussion" thread about the various survivor theories.  I hope we can have courteous yet open discussions over there about more than just FS, though I'm interested in that topic, too!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 09:26:25 AM
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek  
 Issue:  [unknown]  
 
   
     
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna __NN__ b. 1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Mother remarried to ___NN___]    
     Issue:    
    2. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895  
    3. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896  
    4. *  poss Gertrude S.  b. poss. 1898  
    5.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899  
    6.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901  
    7.  Felix S. b. 17 February 1903  
    8. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905  
   
 
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3) to  ___NN3___    
 Issue:    
   1. [unknown]    
  ------
NOTES  
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown and place in families above is at this time is not known, however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 1898 which would place her fourth between FS and Michael.  -------
 
Gertrude, nee Schanzkowska,  Ellrick children were:  
 
1. [Another] Gertrud  Ellrick m. Maucher  
     +Carl Maucher's mother.  
 
2. Hedwig Ellrick m. Lander  
      
 
3. +Margarete  Ellrick
     Who lived with Karl Maucher  
   
4. Magdalene Ellrick m. Weber  
     Had a son called Herbert Weber  
 
Note: + tested mtDNA

It is important to know if Gertrude, nee Schanzkowska, Ellrick was a full sister or half sister to FS [Franziska Schanzkowska] so we can use Karl Maucher and Margarete Ellrick's DNA tests to match up with AA [Anna Anderson] mtDNA.

Unfortunately, the birth and baptismal certificate of Gertrude's have not been found.

All the other FS siblings birth information have been found and this send up what I call a "red flag" of doubt.

In one of Penny's post which I can't find, she mentioned there were RUMORs [and that is exactly what they are until proven] that Anton did stray now and then.... and perhaps this was the reason his second marriages ended in divorse [an unusal event in those time]....

Some think that it doesn't matter if we prove Gertrude and FS were full sisters,  but,  I think it does.


AGRBear
 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 09:32:38 AM
Penny Wilson wrote:

"Anna had been confronted by members of the Schanzkowski family twice -- first by Franziska's brother Felix in 1927 and secondly by four of her siblings in 1938.  On both occasions, they did not identify her as their sister.  Franziska Schanzkowska was born on 16 December 1896, in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire.  ... Her father married twice, and she was a child of the second marriage and close to her brother Felix.  The first family were very religious and straitlaced, while Franziska and Felix were more open-minded..."  (The Quest for Anastasia, by John Klier and Helen Mingay.  London: Smith Gryphon, 1995.  Page 223)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 09:37:43 AM
Penny wrote:

"... I freely admit it.  Back in 1999/2000, spurred on by the excerpt of Klier and Mingay quoted above, Greg and I embarked on an investigation of the Schanzkowsky family as part of a wider project.  Today, we know that FS's father did, indeed, marry twice, the first time to Josefina Peek, with whom he apparently had no children.  His second marriage, to FS's mother Marianna, produced these children -- from memory: Franziska, Martin, Valerian, Felix and Maria Julianna.  Gertrud's birth information has not been located -- unlike that of the others -- and therefore she cannot been placed definitely as a child of either marriage.
 
So what we know has changed in the ten years since the Kliers published -- and even in the five years since we spoke with them, which is why I won't publish here details of old conversations without permission.  But it was they who first introduced the idea of two marriages and two families. "
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 09:45:40 AM
Quote
....[in part]....

.....your predisposition to only accept/believe/want to hear research or information on the Schanzkowsky Family "not written by a person who was totally against the idea of AA being FS" rather paints you into a corner as far as learning anything new or getting to the heart of the matter.  You seem to accept the un-documented, un-cited quotations from authors like Massie and Klier and Mingay, who were opposed to AA and who never questioned the DNA, but are apparently unwilling, for example, to believe the documented information on the family presented by Peter Kurth.  The imposition of personal prejudice on "fact" has always been the biggest problem in this case.  I suggest that it's more fruitful to look at everything and realize that anything written about AA in this case-from BOTH sides-comes with an agenda of varying degrees.

Many people have explored the family, and a lot of very fruitful work in Germany and Poland has disclosed a wealth of records on the Schanzkowskys that documents fully, from the moment of their births, the lives of Franziska and her family, until the time she disappeared in Berlin, drawing on church records, interviews, provincial and state archives, police archives, complete hospital records for Franziska, etc., all of it unpublished and unknown.

Greg King
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 09:49:23 AM
Quote

The point is-full documentation exists for the other children-all of their births were registered; Gertrude's is the only child in the family who was not-it has nothing to do with common practice, as such, especially as she was neither the oldest or youngest child, and thus the only one not represented with documentation.

As to the mtDNA match with Maucher, I direct you to my post under the DNA thread, which points out that at least 10% of unrelated humans are now believed to share identical mtDNA profiles.

Greg King
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 09:52:32 AM
Quote
On May 9, 1927  AA was taken for a meeting with Felix Schanzkowska the brother of Francisca.

The meeting took place at an in Wasserburg some few miles nw of Seeon.  Felix S. was sitting the beer garden with Dr. Voller, while Harriet von Rathlef wisely kept out of sight.  As she walked toward his table, AA asked the Duke, "Which one of the gentlemen is it?"

Felix stared at her.

Who is that lady, asked Dr Voller,  "That is my sister Francisca ." replied Felix.   All eyes turned to Anastasia,
"Well, stammered the Duke, thoroughly amazed, "go and talk with your brother."   Dr Voller had already prepared an affadavit for Felix to sign, stating that this was indeed his sister Franciska S., and that he recognized her beyond any doubt.  Frau Rathlef was crushed, she handed the document to Felix, when she suddenly heard him say " No, I won't do it.  She isn't my sister."  

"She isn't your sister?" asked Frau Rathlef stunned by this about face.

"No, said Felix again, adding that he would not sign a false declaration that might land him in jail."

Dr Voller drew up another affadavit that Felix did not hesitate to sigh it"

" There does exist a strong resemblance between her and my sister.  The resemblance is strong when you look from the front, but not when you look from the side.....Frau Tschaikovsky's speech...as well as the general expression of her manner is totally different from that of my sister, Franziska.... At today's consultation I spoke repeatedly with Frau Tshaikovsky.  There can be no doubt that she did not have the slightest idea who I was.  You could clearly see that she did no know me.  I went toward her and she gave me her hand and talked to me with perfect unconcern.  She showed no sign either of astonishment or of the slightest fear.  She behaved rather as one behaves towards a third pary to whom one is just being introduced."

Then Harriet Rathlef went over the check list:  There were scars and birthmarks,  "My sister Franzsiska had no scars or birthmarks";  Teeth;  My sister Franziska had a full set of teeth. "  Languages; "My sister Franziska spoke a little polish and good german."  Feet;
"My sister Franziska had no deformities of the feet."  Here Felix took off his shoes and "with sort of a vanity", declared that Franziska has "pretty" feet, "just like mine."

That is in Riddle of Anna Anderson  pgs 173-174....

Michael
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 09:54:37 AM
Quote
In a German court of law, a man by the name of Grossmann, was convicted of having killed many women.

One of the women on this list of victims was FS who was killed on the 13th of Aug. 1920.

AGRBear


Quote
Here is the link to the thread discussing this--Bear and Penny get quite in depth....

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1093733573;start=50#50

Apparently the name is Czenkowski....

Penny says:
There was rather an extensive Berlin Police investigation into FS's disappearance, at the end of which it was concluded that she had been a victim of Georg Grossman.  This investigation included much more evidence than Grossman's own diary -- often cited -- where a name similar to Schanzkowsky is recorded (from memory, I think it was rendered something like this: Czenkowski).  Before you ask, it is true that the Berlin Police Department's records were mostly destroyed in the second war, but certified copies of records were routinely sent to other interested entities, like private investigators, etc, and this is where we located Franziska's information.

Denise


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 10:08:43 AM
on Feb 3rd, 2005, 12:54pm, Helen_Azar wrote:
... [in part]...
 
 In fact there is another possible explanation of how this DNA evidence could possibly be wrong, but this is not what Peter is using. If you guys did your homework you would be able to come up with it. It is extremelyunlikely, but more plausible than the explanation Peter uses. ?
------

Quote

I'm all eyes for new facts.

AGRBear ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 10:25:42 AM

I keep saying that we don't know that Gertrude was the full sister.....

Quote
...[in part].....
You keep saying this as if it were a fact, but we still don't know if this indeed is a fact, do we? Do we have any documentation to prove this? Not that I know of. Once we have that, then we can accept it as fact, until then, it is only a theory that needs to be proven...


We cannot say who AA was based on her DNA results, we can only say that her DNA matched that of Carl Maucher, I have already said this before. So technically she could be anyone maternally related to Carl Maucher, including FS.


To be exact, what I said was, the fact that her mtDNA matched Carl Maucher's shows that AA was maternally related to him.


...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 12, 2005, 10:43:48 AM
If the DNA samples of AA match those of the "S" family...from 4 independant tests...barring alien abductions....then can't we reasonably assume she was "somehow" related to the "S" family?....No....I guess not..... ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 12, 2005, 11:02:25 AM
Puts on endless loupe audio...."The DNA of said AA,from 4 independant lab sources, did not match that of known members of the IF...but did match that of known members of the family of FS...Were there several lost female members of the "S" family after WWI...or are some folk just reluctant to see that 2+2=4?...Mostly?...In this reality?...Not that some can't and don't have their own reality....What? ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 11:07:36 AM
The tests matched AA's intestine DNA with Karl Maucher and Margarete Ellrick.  Both Karl and Margarete are des. of Gertrude, S., but we do not know if Gertrude and FS had the same mother or even the same parents because we do not have the birth or baptismal certificates of Gertrude so we can NOT complete the links of the mtDNA.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 11:08:27 AM
Quote
I was wondering why nobody has brought up yet another story dealing with FS's fate, the one that goes that she left the country to go "into service" in England.  A man who was dating her at the time saw her off and she supposedly gave him her address in England.

And she didn't return.

So the story goes.

(Though I am completely neutral about this entire topic. I do not believe that AA was ANR and don't really care who she really was, obviously a very clever sort)


Quote

Very true!  I think that Peter does mention it in his book, as it was brought up during the Hamburg trial.  I found it on page 307-308:

...A new witness, Bruno Grandsitzki, who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920, at a time when Anastasia was already confined at Dalldorf Asylum.  Grandsitzki remembered that Franziska and "some other girls" had been making ready to sail for England, Where they had found employment as domestic servants.  The ship was called the Premier, Gransitzki recalled, and Franziska had even given him her new address in London.  It was "Bedford Road"--"unfortunately I've forgotten the number.

"Things were exciting," wrote Dominique Aucleres, but alas, no informatiom could be obtained from the British Home Office about Polish immigrants to England.  In London, there were any number of "Bedford" thoroughfares,from streets to roads, with lanes, mews, gardens, terraces, places and walks between.  And of six steamers named Premier operating out of Danzig in 1920, three had never carried any Franziska Schanzkowskaas a passenger; one was nowhere to be found; one was "too small to cross the ocean;" and one "made no reply."


So it looks like that one was impossible to follow up, or was a dead in.  But if Franziska was really in London, wouldn't she have come forward if she heard her name in the news?  With some other woman being connected to it?  Especially if there were members of her family (Gertrude) who was thinking AA might be her sister?

Or was this not as well publicized as I think it was?

Denise
 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 11:25:02 AM
So,  was Gertrude the sister of FS whom people claim was AA [Anna Anderson] who claimed to be GD Anastasia???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 12, 2005, 11:33:38 AM
Quote
The tests matched AA's intestine DNA with Karl Maucher and Margarete Ellrick.  Both Karl and Margarete are des. of Gertrude, S., but we do not know if Gertrude and FS had the same mother or even the same parents because we do not have the birth or baptismal certificates of Gertrude so we can NOT complete the links of the mtDNA.

AGRBear


Erm...what are the chances that AA...a supposed member of the "S" family...would match the DNA of known members of the"S" family...and NOT be related to members of the "S" family....?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 11:34:52 AM
We can assume that Gertrude was the full sister of FS, however, without a birth or baptismal certificate, no one can prove she was a sister of FS or that she was even a child of Anton S. or any of his wives  [be they one, two or three] or a mistress if he had any.

The mtDNA tests show Gertrude's des. Marg. and Karl have a mtDNA match with AA.  This means they probably have a common ancestor through the maternal lineage.

This means they  [Gertrude, Mar. and Karl and AA] are probably related but we do not know how close this relationship is.  It could mean that Gertrude and AA were sisters, or cousins  [1 to 25 generations].

Evidently the mutation of mtDNA can cover a long list of possible canidates, not just FS.

daveK  ran some fiqures and he came up with the theory that there were about 200 females of the same age range who were in or around Berlin when AA jumped into the canal.

Helen thinks this figure should be limited to "1" female and that female is FS and so she, and others, believe FS must be AA.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 11:40:26 AM
Above is a post of Greg's and he thought it was 10%.

Dr. Gill did not say the match was absolute.  I think the number he used was 1 in 300.  [Do not quote me on this number, my memory may be wrong on this one.]

Helen said 99.9 % match and there was no wiggle room unless it can be proven that Gertrude and FS were not sister.

daveK, Helen and others  said there are only 7 "mothers" of the European mtDNA handed down...    and that mutation doesn't occur very rapidly and it's about once every 25 generations....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 12, 2005, 11:41:39 AM
Quote
We can assume that Gertrude was the full sister of FS, however, without a birth or baptismal certificate, no one can prove she was a sister of FS or that she was even a child of Anton S. or any of his wives  [be they one, two or three] or a mistress if he had any.

The mtDNA tests show Gertrude's des. Marg. and Karl have a mtDNA match with AA.  This means they probably have a common ancestor through the maternal lineage.

This means they  [Gertrude, Mar. and Karl and AA] are probably related but we do not know how close this relationship is.  It could mean that Gertrude and AA were sisters, or cousins  [1 to 25 generations].

Evidently the mutation of mtDNA can cover a long list of possible canidates, not just FS.

daveK  ran some fiqures and he came up with the theory that there were about 200 females of the same age range who were in or around Berlin when AA jumped into the canal.

Helen thinks this figure should be limited to "1" female and that female is FS and so she, and others, believe FS must be AA.

AGRBear


Is not FS the only  member of her age,gender,and time period to be missing from the "S" family....?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 12:01:16 PM
Quote

...[in part]...

Gill explained his 1/300 odds in his paper in 1995.

(http://   http://img24.exs.cx/img24/5105/aaarticle25jx.jpg )


....Question 2) Is  the random match probability of AA’s DNA really 1/300? ....

 

....

Since Dr. Gill was not positive that FS and AA were the same person he  added "if Carl Maucher and Anna Anderson are unrelated though the maternal line is less than one in 300".  To Dr. Gill this was his "hypothesis".
 



AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 12:17:58 PM
Yes, she was the only one missing from the S. family.

Another question you should ask, was she the only one missing from other families who also fit this description at this time.  The answer is she was not the only one missing.

The Berlin police actually brought in members of families of other missing girls who fit AA's description and done of them reconized AA either.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 12, 2005, 12:33:31 PM
AGR,

You keep quoting me, so I guess I have no choice but join this discussion - as distasteful as it is to me - particularly since you have a very unfortunate tendency (whether deliberately or unintentionally - I don't know) to constantly twist my words...


Quote
Above is a post of Greg's and he thought it was 10%.


First, I think that you are misinterpreting what Greg King is trying to say with his 10% statistic, at least it comes off this way in how you worded your statement.

About his statistic, I would like to know where GK got the "10% of humans" from? I would like the exact explanation of how this number was derived. But not just a name of a book where he saw it, or telling us that someone said this to him, what I would like to see is something similar to what DaveK presented on the DNA thread (http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1108948411;start=150), where he demonstrated that the Schankowskis' mtDNA sequence is extremely rare, and that from the mtDNA bank collection of something like 8,000 sequences of European Caucasians it only matched one individual in Iceland. That puts a huge hole in Greg's "10% of all humans" theory, doesn't it? And we have concrete numbers to prove it, not just a random statement...

In addition, ten years later, when the mtDNA bank collection grew significantly, we saw that this sequence was even more rare than previously thought. This is an even stronger confirmation that AA = FS, and also that the individual whose intestine the mtDNA was derived from (i.e. AA) was indeed maternally related to Gertrude Schankowska (i. e. her sister).  

So this is where DaveK's statistic of over 99% certainty came from. Where did Greg King's 10% come from? He (or you) can't just throw out a random number like 10% and not explain how it was derived - and if you can't explain it, then it is meaningless.  Greg King is a writer not a scientist, and he has very limited understanding of DNA science - this is obvious based on the statements he makes. Since some readers here will probably not think to question it and will take Greg's 10% statistic for granted, I am asking for them - sorry but this is just the way it works...   Only when, or if, GK can show how this number was derived, can it be accepted as valid.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: elfwine on July 12, 2005, 12:43:01 PM
This seems very rational and Ms. Azar makes a cogent point - why is this still a point of debate?

elfwine
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 12, 2005, 12:48:12 PM
Bear - thanks for providing all of the background to have this discussion.

DNA or no DNA, we simply do not know (yet) what the exact relationship is between the two women.  Is it a coincidence that no birth certificate exists, or something more?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 12, 2005, 02:42:14 PM
My pleasure Finelly.

And, like I've said all along,  I always thought AA and FS were the same person and still lean in that direction.  It's just this tiny loose end, no birth certificate, that makes me hesitate and ponder and set up threads about "differences" and "similarities" and this one.

Helen,  I have not twisted your words.  I've quoted what you've said and because of this, anyone can go directly to your quote and read all posts before and after, including your own.

As you've learn,  I know very little about DNA, however, through your patience on other threads you and others have taught me a great deal, and, I am grateful.

davK gave us a huge amount of information, I've quoted him and anyone can go directly to his quotes and read what he posted.

Helen, I am not sure why you find answering my posts as distasteful.  I always thought we were both looking for the truth.  And, I had thought we had agreed that we could disagree.  If I have offended you,  I apologize.

The truth, as I see it,  is:  We do not have Gertrude's birth or baptismal records to prove who her father or her mother was.

We do have a match of mtDNA which matches Karl Maucher, Marg. Ellrick and AA and this  probably proves these three had a common maternal ancestor.  

If AA was not FS then we do not have FS's DNA to match Karl Maucher or Marg. Ellrick who are connected to Gertrude.  If this is then the case, we'd have to  search 1 to 25 generations within Gertrude's maternal lineage to discover how Gertrude is related to AA lineage.  Trouble is, if AA isn't FS then where would we look and how will be know we've found a match if we don't know who AA is, if she's not FS?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 12, 2005, 06:57:32 PM
Quote
If the DNA samples of AA match those of the "S" family...from 4 independant tests...barring alien abductions....then can't we reasonably assume she was "somehow" related to the "S" family?....No....I guess not..... ::)


Again, etonexile : I have my HUGE suspects about the tissue samles who were tested. The different laboratories tested the only and same tissue sample, so it is not odd that the result would always be all alike.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 13, 2005, 11:30:27 AM
Yes...one would assume that 4 labs testing the same tissues would reach the same result....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 13, 2005, 11:34:45 AM
Quote
Yes, she was the only one missing from the S. family.

Another question you should ask, was she the only one missing from other families who also fit this description at this time.  The answer is she was not the only one missing.

The Berlin police actually brought in members of families of other missing girls who fit AA's description and done of them reconized AA either.

AGRBear


Descriptions from other families aside...and there must have been many families in Europe after WWI with female relatives closely matching FS who went missing...the tissue samples from AA did match known relations of FS....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2005, 03:30:42 PM
The mtDNA matches AA and Gertrude.

There are possibilities how this can occur.  

Most people assume that AA was FS and sister of Gertrude S.

At this time, we do not know if Gertrude S. was FS's full sister or half sister or  cousins....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 13, 2005, 07:42:18 PM
Bear...does it really matter if FS was Gertrude's sister or cousin if the DNA for the family is a match?...An F was the "only"(as far as we know) female of her generation to go missing in the S family....Don't make work for yourself.....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 13, 2005, 09:03:42 PM
Quote


No-one knows what it will be about.   8)   ;D  

The Pretenders won't happen for a few years yet -- there's a lot of travel and research yet to do, and in these Pretender cases especially, we have to be sure to do as thorough and complete a job as we did with FOTR.

We have a bio of Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig underway, and also there is a new book, the subject of which recently presented itself, and about which I can say nothing until all the details are ironed out.

Greg also has his book on the Court of Nicholas II coming soon -- this one is in production.

So I don't know which one with be out first -- but whichever it is, I think you'll like it!   ;)


Thank you for responding Penny.  I am looking forward to whatever you are publishing next.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 14, 2005, 01:56:33 PM
Quote

As I have noted, the S family was studied intensively by German Eugenicists looking at the question of inheritable criminal tendencies. The study has been published and may contain some time-lines, but from my quick scan of the text, none seemed pertinent. However, Penny Wilson may know more.


RRS


I have read this about FS's family being studied for inheritable criminal tendancies a couple of times on these boards.

Were they made part of the study because of the FS/AA thing or something else?How does a family get selected for a study like this one?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 14, 2005, 02:09:00 PM
Quote
I have read this about FS's family being studied for inheritable criminal tendancies a couple of times on these boards.

Were they made part of the study because of the FS/AA thing or something else?How does a family get selected for a study like this one?


It was a Nazi research study, and the Schanzkowskys were selected for it specifically because of FS/AA.  Hitler himself took a small amount of personal interest in the mystery, though I think he ended up believing that AA was, indeed, FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 14, 2005, 02:12:46 PM
Thank you, Penny!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 15, 2005, 06:40:18 PM
Quote
...[in part]....
I would like to point out the point which so many people are confusing.

[size=18]How many people had Anna Anderson's mtDNA type in Europe in 1918?[/size]
 
My Answer: About [size=16]50,000 [/size]people.

Not only AA's maternal relative. There are tons of them.

However, here is my calculation:

People who had AA's mtDNA in Europe: 50,000
Of whcih, who were woman: 25,000
Of which, who were age 17-26: 3500
Of which, those who lived around Berlin region: 200
Of which, those who looked like AA (at least to some extent): 20
Of which, those who disappeared around Feb 1920: 1
This one person's name was Franziska Schanzkowska.
Q.E.D.

(http://img136.exs.cx/img136/8238/fs4uw.jpg)

This phylogenetic data supports my estimate. I will explain this when I have time.
...


If FS was murdered by Grossmann, then we've have to take a step back on daveK's "conjecture" .

There was more than one missing person who looked liked AA and the police brought them to see AA to see if she was whom the others were hoping to find.  Remember this was war time.  A lot of people were missing. I don't know the number who were.  Do you daveK?

Myself,  I'd take two steps backward and look at the 200 because I'm not sure if there is enough data to know how many of the 200 looked like AA and FS.  Maybe 20, maybe more.  I don't know.  What are the similarities of people with the same mtDNA?  Are the similarities higher, some or lower than those of another mtDNA link?

I don't have time to dig up what else daveK posted so PLEASE follow his link to see what else he's written.

I'm heading out to dinner so the rest of this DNA stuff is up to the rest of you.

AGRBear




Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on July 15, 2005, 08:14:42 PM
I have never believed they were anything but whole sisters. The 'question' has only been raised on this site, it's the first I ever heard of it, and a minor quote from one book which is likely inaccurate. I don't and never have believed the scientists who conducted the DNA tests would have bothered with anyone other than a true maternal relative. Karl Maucher even resembles AA in her younger days.  This controversy has gotten old to me. I just feel I must comment in hopes no newcomers to the topic will be misled or misinformed. Thanks again Helen for your expert advice.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 15, 2005, 08:38:18 PM
It is logical to assume that they were sisters.

It is also logical to request more information as to their exact relationship.

What we do know from the dna is that they are related, sharing mitrochondrial dna.  What we do not know, due to lack of documentation in the form of birth records, etc., is whether they were cousins, siblings, or something else more distant.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jaa on July 17, 2005, 10:46:16 AM
Excellent analysis, finelly.

Quote
I don't and never have believed the scientists who conducted the DNA tests would have bothered with anyone other than a true maternal relative.

I wondered about that, since they did not have any documentation for Gertrude. Dr. Ginther provides an entirely reasonable explanation in one of his emails to CuriousOne:

"I never wanted to know any more than necessary about any sample because I feared that knowledge might prejudice my result."

This is on page 2 of the now-locked Dr. Ginther thread.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 17, 2005, 11:04:51 AM
Quote
I wondered about that, since they did not have any documentation for Gertrude.


Considering that you are so big on logic, you should probably understand that the exact mtDNA match between Carl Maucher and AA could not possibly have been a random coincidence...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 17, 2005, 11:15:18 AM
Quote

Considering that you are so big on logic, you should probably understand that the exact mtDNA match between Carl Maucher and AA could not possibly have been a random coincidence...


Sadly...some will disregard such logic...."Conspiracy Theories Uber Alles..."
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 17, 2005, 12:32:07 PM
I think the point is that the exact mtdna match proves a maternal relationship, but does not tell us specifically what the relationship was.

On the other hand, it is only a matter of curiosity as to what the relationship was (cousins, siblings, etc), and has nothing to do with the FS/AN non-relationship.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 17, 2005, 12:42:02 PM
Quote
I think the point is that the exact mtdna match proves a maternal relationship, but does not tell us specifically what the relationship was.


Nope, the point is that the chance of this being a random match (AA not being who they thought she was, but someone else), is less than a fraction of 1%, i.e. practically none, especially when you combine the DNA with the fact that FS was never found after AA appeared...

Quote
On the other hand, it is only a matter of curiosity as to what the relationship was (cousins, siblings, etc), and has nothing to do with the FS/AN non-relationship.


See above...



Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 17, 2005, 12:43:51 PM
I don't know anyone, on this board or otherwise, who still believes that FS was AN, though........or that FS wasn't AA.......so that discussion seems to be moot, no?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 17, 2005, 12:51:58 PM
Quote
I don't know anyone, on this board or otherwise, who still believes that FS was AN, though........or that FS wasn't AA.......so that discussion seems to be moot, no?


I wasn't talking about AA being AN, that has been accepted by most now. But there are some who still question that AA was FS, and use the "sister" thing as a reason... If everyone accepts that AA was FS, what's the difference if she was Gertrude's sister or her cousin?  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 17, 2005, 12:59:15 PM
I haven't seen anyone questioning the FS/AA thing in general.

As for why it matters who AA was if she wasnt' AN, that's an interesting question.  I think it is because for so long almost all of the evidence was on the other side, that the new dna evidence is just hard to accept.  Since it's pretty difficult to disregard the dna evidence, the lingering doubts have been turned toward "who was AA, then, anyway, and how could this have happened?"

Some people may believe that once AA is proven not to be AN, all other questions are moot.  Other people may still want to explore the relationships further to get the full story.  

I have to admit that I vaccilate myself between interest and non-interest.  I tend to adopt theories very rarely, as I am more interested in accumulating facts.    And that makes these discussions more interesting for me.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 17, 2005, 01:19:26 PM
Quote
I haven't seen anyone questioning the FS/AA thing in general.


You're kidding...

Quote
As for why it matters who AA was if she wasnt' AN, that's an interesting question.  

No, that wasn't my question. My question was, if we all accept that AA was FS, then why does it matter if Gertrude and FS were sisters or cousins? Does that mean that next we could move on to other Schankowski relatives and discuss them here? This is a Romanov history site after all, not the Schankowski site  ;)

Quote
I think it is because for so long almost all of the evidence was on the other side, that the new dna evidence is just hard to accept.  .


Not really, most of the evidence on the other side was conflicting ("she spoke Russian - she didn't speak Russian; she acted like royalty - she acted like a peasant; her brother recognized her - her brother didn't recognize her, etc.". So not very hard to accept the DNA evidence at all.

Quote
Some people may believe that once AA is proven not to be AN, all other questions are moot.  Other people may still want to explore the relationships further to get the full story.

Once again, yes, it is interesting to know who she really was if she wasn't AN, but once we know who she was, i.e. FS, then why keep discussing the Schankowski family? But I suppose if you guys find them fascinating, then why not... This can go on forever as long as there are any Schankowski descendants left alive...  :o

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 17, 2005, 01:24:08 PM
Nope, not kidding.  Haven't seen it.    Perhaps early on, some people refused to completely accept...but that is certainly not true now.

As for the other issue, it's all part of solving a mystery.  Whether it was the greatest hoax of all time, or simply a mentally-ill woman who managed to convince herself of something untrue, it's fun to gather all of the facts and explore.  

I would guess that people who aren't interested simply wouldn't participate!  :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 02:00:01 PM
Quote

I wasn't talking about AA being AN, that has been accepted by most now. But there are some who still question that AA was FS, and use the "sister" thing as a reason... If everyone accepts that AA was FS, what's the difference if she was Gertrude's sister or her cousin?  



If everyone accepts that AA was FS, what's the difference if she was Gertrude's sister or her cousin?  

The difference is, if AA, FS and Gertrude are first or second or fifth cousins then it is possible that AA was not FS.

And, please,  go over to the two threads which talk about the similarities and differences of AA and FS.  The list on the differences might get you to wonder,  like myself and others, if AA was FS.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 17, 2005, 02:02:29 PM
Quote
The difference is, if AA, FS and Gertrude are first or second or fifth cousins then it is possible that AA was not FS.
AGRBear


Thank you for demonstrating my point, AGRBear. Finelly, do you see what I mean now?   ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 02:05:43 PM
Did I voice something that was in error???

Being first cousins still fit the 99.9% match.  Right?
Being second cousin still fits the 99.9% match.  Right?
Being the fifth cousin still fits the 99.9% match.  Right?

If I'm wrong, how many can fit in the 99.9% match?
1
2
3
4
5

Or can it be higher.
6
7
10
25
???

Perhaps this is where I fail to understand your word "match".

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 17, 2005, 02:12:48 PM
Quote
The difference is, if AA, FS and Gertrude are first or second or fifth cousins then it is possible that AA was not FS.
AGRBear


Quote
... [size=13]there are some who still question that AA was FS, and use the "sister" thing as a reason[/size]...


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 02:26:25 PM
Can you prove Gertrude is related to FS?

No.

Can you prove AA and Gertrude are related.  Yes.

So, the  sister thingy  is a good question as is the cousin thingy....

Instead of always claiming I'm trying to disprove AA and FS are the same person,  why not think that I'm trying to prove AA is FS and would like all the facts to draw to this conclusion?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 17, 2005, 02:27:41 PM
Quote
Being first cousins still fit the 99.9% match.  Right?
Being second cousin still fits the 99.9% match.  Right?
Being the fifth cousin still fits the 99.9% match.  Right?

If I'm wrong, how many can fit in the 99.9% match?
1
2
3
4
5

Or can it be higher.
6
7
10
25
???

Perhaps this is where I fail to understand your word "match".

AGRBear


Oh I see, now that you added this part, I see that you are still totally misunderstaning these statistics.

The match between Carl Maucher and AA: 100%

The chance that this 100% match was random and that AA was someone other than FS:  less than 1%.

The chance that Getrude and FS were sisters: 99+%.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 02:33:21 PM
Then how could they be cousins, instead of sisters,  if it is discovered they didn't have the same mothers???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 17, 2005, 02:39:32 PM
Quote
Then how could they be cousins, instead of sisters,  if it is discovered they didn't have the same mothers???

AGRBear


That's because they were not cousins - you just made that up. They were sisters who had the same mother. The DNA results proved that, for all intents and purposes, and we don't need a birth certificate or anything else to confirm this. If you still don't see that, then there is nothing more anyone can say.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 02:47:02 PM
When I asked you on another thread, if Gertrude's birth or baptismal certificate is found and it tells us that FS and Gertrude had different mothers,  you told us that you'd have to look and see if their mother's were sisters.  If the mothers were sisters this would  keep in line the same mtDNA and would be a match.

If this is the case,  then FS and Gertrude could be first cousins through the maternal side.  And, the mtDNA would still match.  Would this still be a 99.9% match?

Quote

.. [in part]....
We cannot say who AA was based on her DNA results, we can only say that her DNA matched that of Carl Maucher, I have already said this before. So technically she could be anyone maternally related to Carl Maucher, including FS.


To be exact, what I said was, the fact that her mtDNA matched Carl Maucher's shows that AA was maternally related to him.


....



As long as we don't have the birth or baptismal certificates, then it seems logical to me to check all possible avenues  to prove  AA and FS are the same person.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 17, 2005, 03:40:04 PM
I am trying very hard to see everyone's point of view.

Please bear with me. I want to ask if this is how it works.

I have the same mtdna as my mother and her mother. Yes?

My grandmother had a sister(same  mother) who was very fruitful. She has 13 children. So her 13 children's mtdna would match mine?

Ten of the 13 were daughters. They had at least 5 children apiece. So would those 50+ people have the same mtdna as I?

We have lost track of this branch of the family basically because of the large number of people involved.

So let's say that 25 of the 50+ were women. And for illustration 10 of them are now mothers. Would these ten people have the same mtdna as I?

In just 3 generations from one woman were there about 70 or more people who have my mtdna? Many of these people live in my part of the state. But I would not recognize them or their marraige names at this point.

I think Bear is saying that during FS's time many people went missing. Many people also didn't stray too far from where they were born. People had large families.

So this is why I question if AA was FS or relative to FS.

Does mtdna mutate in three or four generations or would the children of the ten match mine 99% or would there be differences?

Thanks

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 04:38:55 PM
Did Grossmann murder FS?

Quote

...in part]....
Since  all I have is a 3/4 page mention of Grossmann from a book about murderers, Encyclopedia of Murder by Wilson and Pitman, I can't give you much more than I already have.

p. 243-4

"GROSSMANN, Georg Karl

"German mass-murderer, born in Neurueppin in 1863, who, like Denke, commited sudice before his execution."

"The case has many resemblances to the Denke murders.  In August 1921 the owner of a top-storey flat in Berlin near the Silesian railway terminus heard sounds of a sstruggle coming from the kitchen and called police. They found on Grossmann's kitchen bed (camp bed) the trussed-up carcass of a recently killed girl.....  He picked up girls with great regularity (in fact, he seldom spent a night alone).  He killed many of these sleeping partners and sold the bodies for meat, disposing the unsaleable parts in the river.  (The case becme known as the Die Braut auf der Stulle-- 'the bread and butter brides', since a companion for the night is known as a 'bride' in Germany.) At the time of his arrest, evidence was found which indicated that three women had been killed and dismembered in the past three weeks."

"...It is of interest that Grossmann was indirectly invovled in the famous 'Anastasia case....  At one point it was annouced that "Anastasia" was really an imposter named Franziska Schamzkovski, a Polish girl from Buetow in Pomerania.  Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... "

"...The number of his victims will never be known, but they may well have exceeded Haarmann's total of fifty, since he was 'in business' throughout the war until 1921...."

AGRBear


Let me repeat this part of the entry:

>> Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... "<<

What other evidence is there which points to the fact that FS was murdered and could not have been AA?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 05:00:01 PM
I may have worn Helen's patience thin, again, by not  folding up my books and say I am in full agreement. So,  she's probably off trying to wonder how we can be so stubborn.    So,  I dug around and found this quote which you can follow to the discussion:

Quote

If this is the case, then it wouldn't matter that Carl M.'s mother was not FS's full sister, all it ould matter is that they are maternally related: they would still have identical mtDNA.


AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Annie on July 17, 2005, 05:05:34 PM
Then let me repeat again, no. She died in Charlottesville, VA in 1984 at age 88.

There is no evidence at all other than a diary with the wrong name and an assumption guess on a missing persons case which of course later proved wrong. FS was AA. Must be a pretty dull summer if this is being dug back up again.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Lanie on July 17, 2005, 05:07:29 PM
Quote
Then let me repeat again, no. She died in Charlottesville, VA in 1984 at age 88.

There is no evidence at all other than a diary with the wrong name and an assumption guess on a missing persons case which of course later proved wrong. FS was AA. Must be a pretty dull summer if this is being dug back up again.


Here here.

And "Sasnovzki" sounds nothing like the pronounciation of Schanskowska.  My stepmother, who is of Polish descent and knows the language, looked at me funny when I asked her if they sound similar at all.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 05:08:09 PM
I found this, which is interesting balderdash...

Another post-WWI-German degenerate that made a living selling human flesh. Georg, a horrifying individual, was acquainted with every kind of perversion, even bestiality. A former butcher, after nights of heavy drinking, he would bring prostitutes home, have sex with them, and chop them into pieces. The next day he would peddle their flesh as beef or pork.

He was arrested in August, 1921, when his landlord summoned the police to his door following a loud altercation. Inside his pad they found a freshly butchered lass ready to be chopped up. They also found evidence of at least three other divvied up girls. The mad butcher laughed when he was given the death sentence and proceeded to hang himself in jail.

Some believe that one of Georg's victims was Anastasia, the Russian grand duchess who escaped the Bolshevik firing squad and assumed the identity of the Polish peasant girl, Franziska Schamzkovski.

http://www.francesfarmersrevenge.com/stuff/serialkillers/grossmann.htm

That is the first time I have ever seen it mentioned that AN assumed the identity of FS. Wild, huh????
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 05:19:12 PM
While digging around I found the two following quotes which relate to this thread.

Quote
... [ in part]...
Helen,
The accepted number of generations of mtDNA staying intact before one mutation is 20. Newer studies show it "MIGHT" be as soon as 10-12.

Jeremy. What Helen was trying to say is that, yes, at some point WAY back we "were related" (to be very specific we "are" related but so FAR back as to essentially NOT be related.
The explanation is that in some family lines, the mtDNA does not mutate at all, and remains exactly the same for like 200 generations, so that out of every 100 people, 4 would have the same mtDNA, but for all intents and purposes have the same common maternal ancestor so far back in time that they are 'not related' biologically speaking (ie: their NUCLEAR DNA would have no common relations).

....


Quote
That is exactly my point, thanks for noticing. See, Dear Ms Bear keeps harping on the lack of maternal relation of Carl Maucher. There are only 3, count em 3 possibilities since the mtDNA match is exact.
1. Carl Maucher and AA WERE maternally related (probablilty 96%)
2. CM and AA were NOT maternally related but had matching mtDNA (4%)
3. Someone SWITCHED the "real" AA sample with one conventiently exactly matching Carl Maucher. So, the answer is WHY? and probability of this is ZERO unless and until substantial and concrete evidence of WHO did it, HOW they managed to do it, WHEN they actually did it and WHY they did it can be demonstrated beyond "well maybe".
AND don't forget, AA is STILL excluded from being AN UNLESS and until #3 can be proven.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 05:25:41 PM
That is interesting.

Guess the author was looking at something we haven't seen in evidence, yet.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 05:27:14 PM
I guess it could could shed a different light on the question of who coached AA.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 05:33:56 PM
Quote
I guess it could could shed a different light on the question of who coached AA.


Think I'll leave this to other posters for comment

As to the name being similar or not similar.   If you go to a genealogy site dealing with Poland and enter "Sasnovski" you will be shown a very long list in which "Schanzkowa" is, also, shown.

Remember,  Grossmann wasn't Polish,  he was German and was spelling a Polish name the way he thought it was spelled.

daveK and I had this discussion on another thread when he claimed AA anf FS must be the same person  because she was the only one missing, and,  I reminded him that FS was the only one missing with with the name "Schanzkowa" [Sasnovski].

Since one of my hobbies is genealogy,  I have become acquainted with the use of the "soundex".  My one ancestor's name is spelled 15 different ways.  So far the records found show seven different spellings.  Had I not used soundex I may have missed finding them.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 05:43:01 PM
I understand Bear. You would not believe the different spellings I have found for my last name while doing family research.
Not to mention Grossman could have mis-spelled the name.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 17, 2005, 06:58:20 PM
Be interesting to see all of the investigative police reports.

The spelling of the name is immaterial.  Particularly since the police apparently told the S family that FS was a victim.

WHat this would mean to me is that FS was not AA, but AA was still a member of the S family and not AN......yet another twist in this mystery!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 07:27:09 PM
Quote
Be interesting to see all of the investigative police reports.

The spelling of the name is immaterial.  Particularly since the police apparently told the S family that FS was a victim.

WHat this would mean to me is that FS was not AA, but AA was still a member of the S family and not AN......yet another twist in this mystery!


Exactly. That would mean that FS (who was apparently murdered) could have been AN.  Now that is an interesting twist.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 17, 2005, 07:28:55 PM
OMG, Lexi!  That would prove my theory!

FS was not AA

AA was not AN

FS WAS AN!

<giggle>
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 07:47:24 PM
Yes, it would.  ;D

However, someone mentioned fingerprints on one of these threads. I think it was mentioned that there are fingerprints from AN that could be lifted off an old text book.
I also think I read that Penny is trying to locate FS's fingerprints at the various assylums in which she was committed. It would be really interesting to compare those two sets of prints.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 17, 2005, 08:04:01 PM
Quote
I understand Bear. You would not believe the different spellings I have found for my last name while doing family research.
Not to mention Grossman could have mis-spelled the name.


You are right, lexi4...I found one of my relative names Bonsembiante (I was doing genealogical research) spelled in nine different ways. I wouldn't post all of them, but I must said that one of them was...Bonaparte!!!  ??? I read a claim about Bonaparte and Bonsembiante being the same family.  ;D I read it as Bonsemblanc, Bonaplanta and other variations...

And how about this Grossman guy? Pretty wild...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 08:11:19 PM
RealAnstascia,
It is pretty wild and interesting to dicuss. I had never even considered anything like this. It is probably a long shot, but it has helped me understand why you and Bear have insisted that all the evidence needs to be looked at.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 10:27:11 PM
The Berlin police were interested in all the new methods, one of which was fingerprints.

I believe when a person was in an asylum,  they had photographs taken as well as fingerprints.

Germans love to keep records, unless they were destroyed during one of the wars,  I assume FS.s fingerprints are probably some place.

If I remember correctly,  Penny had a copy of AA's fingerprints.

I'll have to go digging around for that post.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 10:31:43 PM
Are AN's finger prints available?  I think I read that they were.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 17, 2005, 10:45:13 PM
Quote

Grand Duchess Anastasia's excercise/lesson books were purchased at auction by Ian Lilburn for the express purpose of locating her fingerprints.  AGR Bear is correct in stating that the "lifting" of invisible prints might well have destroyed the books through the process used back then, so the decision was taken not to pursue this avenue of investigation, but rather to look for visible prints memorialized in inkblots.  Anastasia having been a neat and tidy student, left no blots on her books at all, so the books were useless then for fingerprint purposes.  

Prints could be raised from the books now, and I think that this would be interesting -- just for the sake of having Anastasia's fingerprints, which might serve some positive purpose should another claimant appear.  Of course, there will be many sets of prints on the pages of those books, but still I think it would be a good idea, as the real Anastasia would be the only person who could match one set of the prints.

The exercise books are still owned by Ian Lilburn; however, they were never returned to him by the German court, which retained them in an archival situation for their own purposes.  How accessible they might be after all this time, I have no idea.  I think that Ian did try to retrieve them at some point, but his request was refused.


Greg and I have copies of Fraulein Unbekannt's fingerprint card.  These fingerprints were taken by the Berlin police in the immediate aftermath of the suicide attempt/fall in the Landwehr Canal.  We don't have any fingerprint records from Franziska Schanzkowska.  At some point, we will be pursuing the possibility of there being extant fingerprint records in one or more of the hospitals where Franziska spent time, but I do think that if there were any obvious records, they would have been accessed by the court at the time of the trial -- and I don't recall off the top of my head that Franziska's fingerprints were ever an issue at trial.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 17, 2005, 11:12:19 PM
So it could be possible to compare AN's fingerprints with FS at some point. I find it curious that the German police won't release the book to its owner. Maybe they don't want anyone comparing fingerprints.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 18, 2005, 10:08:48 AM
Y'all have such energy and focus....kudos... ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on July 18, 2005, 10:22:24 AM
Quote

Here here.

And "Sasnovzki" sounds nothing like the pronounciation of Schanskowska.  My stepmother, who is of Polish descent and knows the language, looked at me funny when I asked her if they sound similar at all.


I think that the original spelling is closer to                      Czenskowski, though we all (myself included) tend to spell it Schanskowski  here.

And, what's interesting , is that Felix's daughter styles herself Waltraud Von Czenskowski (a).

There's that "scion of the old Polish nobility" connection again. ;)  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 18, 2005, 10:34:07 AM
There are various letters which are interchangable and "Sch" is a sound that can be "C"  or "S" which cut the name down to another possible spelling like "Sanskowski" and since the "w" can be a "v" the name can be spelled "Sanskovski" and so it goes.

To pronouce a word in German depends upon the German's dialect.  

Also,  I have no idea how educated Grossmann was or even if he, himself, was from Berlin or elsewhere.  [Note: Missed this, article said he was from Neurueppin but I'm not familar with this place].

The only thing we seem to be able to say, the Berlin police thought it was a name which linked FS who's family was told they believed Grossmann had murdered her.

Also, if the German court had seen enough information which indicated AA was FS then they would have been able to rule that AA couldn't have been GD Anastasia because she was FS, BUT, they did not.  And they certainly had a lot of information after ALL those years.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 18, 2005, 10:36:37 AM
Is there any way to find how many females of the age of AA in the S family who were missing after WWI...3...6...8...47...?...one?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 18, 2005, 11:15:18 AM
Quote
So it could be possible to compare AN's fingerprints with FS at some point. I find it curious that the German police won't release the book to its owner. Maybe they don't want anyone comparing fingerprints.


I don't think that's it.  From what I understand from Ian, the books are retained in evidence by the German Court System because the case is -- or was, I don't know if the status changed when Anastasia Manahan died -- considered unresolved in some aspects.

If memory serves, Ian applied for the return of his property directly after the conclusion of the case in the 60s.  If the case was considered unresolved at that time, it certainly could have been reclassified either at the time of AM's death, or after the DNA tests in 94.  But I imagine that there has to be application for a judicial review of some sort -- and who would apply?  Maybe Ian, sure -- but he's well into his 80s now, and while still retaining his interest in and loyalty to AM, he has rather moved on to other interests, the most immediate of which is the history and legacy of his German University fraternity.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 18, 2005, 11:26:27 AM
Quote
That is interesting.

Guess the author was looking at something we haven't seen in evidence, yet.

AGRBear



Or maybe the author just has the story turned around -- clearly his/her focus is on serial killers and not on the stories of the victims.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 18, 2005, 11:36:46 AM
Quote
I also think I read that Penny is trying to locate FS's fingerprints at the various assylums in which she was committed. It would be really interesting to compare those two sets of prints.


I'm not actively searching at this point, as I have two other book projects that I'm working on right now.  

It would be very interesting to compare the two sets of prints, wouldn't it?  Either there would be a match -- in which case, another item pro Anastasia Manahan being Franziska Schanzkowska.  Or there wouldn't be a match -- in which case -- what?  Certainly an item in the favor of those who do not agree that AM was FS... But either way, I predict much more fodder for the conspiracy theory team: planted cards, mislabelled cards, how can we know they're authentic....  ;D

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 18, 2005, 01:19:40 PM
Yah, ok, Penny, you're not actively searching right now because you have two other books you're working on.

In my opinion, that is selfish.  It's like you think it's all about YOU and YOUR projects.  What about US?  What about OUR burning curiosity?  Huh?  Huh?

<sheesh.  SOME people......>

<grin>
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: stepan on July 18, 2005, 04:12:26 PM
Quote

I think that the original spelling is closer to                      Czenskowski, though we all (myself included) tend to spell it Schanskowski  here.

 And, what's interesting , is that Felix's daughter styles herself Waltraud Von Czenskowski (a).

There's that "scion of the old Polish nobility" connection again. ;)  

 
AA often styled herself Frau Von Tshaikovski in Germany. I often have thought about how similar the names Schanzkowski and Tshaikovski are.
Oh yes old Polish nobility.  Now it´said the family were mennonites from Holland.  Confusing to say he least. ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 18, 2005, 04:24:47 PM
Quote
If this is the case,  then FS and Gertrude could be first cousins through the maternal side.  And, the mtDNA would still match.  Would this still be a 99.9% match?
AGRBear


You keep repeating this "99.9% match" chant, but again - that's wrong, the match was 100%. Yes, any maternal relative of Gertrude's will have the same mtDNA, but this is not what I am talking about when I say less than 1% chance. Statistically speaking it is impossible that AA just happened to be some random maternal relative of Gertrude's and not FS, her sister. Again: based on the mtDNA bank comparison, the chance that AA was Gertrude's random maternal relative is less than 1% - which means impossible.

We seem to be continuosly discussing apples and oranges.  Anyway, I am going to give up on this because it is obvious that we are not speaking the same language...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on July 18, 2005, 04:55:35 PM
Quote
 
AA often styled herself Frau Von Tshaikovski in Germany. I often have thought about how similar the names Schanzkowski and Tshaikovski are.
Oh yes old Polish nobility.  Now it´said the family were mennonites from Holland.  Confusing to say he least. ;)


What's confusing is that some people (not you Stepan) still can't put two and two together. The whole time AA was dropping hints to who she really was, and no one got it!

....Frau Von Tshaikovski....Frau Von Czenskowski...Frau Von Tshaikovski....Frau Von Czenskowski....like Aunt, like niece? ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 18, 2005, 05:17:00 PM
I think we can all put two and two together.  

Unfortunately, this is not a simple math problem to be solved.  It's a mystery that we actually enjoy exploring.  Yes, we may know who "dunnit", but we find great joy and stimulation in looking at all of the characters, following different leads even though they may be all wrong, and talking about the process!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 18, 2005, 05:19:59 PM
Helen:  Oh, good!  Glad you made that decision.  I know it is frustrating for you, and there's just no need in life to be frustrated when you don't have to be!

Bear:  Wasn't someone trying to contact Carl M?  Did they succeed?  

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 18, 2005, 06:14:14 PM
Bingo!

I pursue this case -- probably more tenaciously than most -- because my interest in it doesn't begin and end with the Romanovs.  Whoever Anastasia Manahan turns out to have been, she was a far more fascinating person than the 17-year-old Grand Duchess ever had a chance to be...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 18, 2005, 06:27:32 PM
I am not sure how to pursue this, but I think it would be interesting if AN and FS did basically trade places.
That is just something I never thought of before. It would be interesting to see the police reports and know why the Berlin police thought FS was murdered by Grossman.
Whatever the case, there are a lot of unanswered questions and misinformation. That is for sure.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 18, 2005, 06:35:49 PM
.....so....did anyone else notice that Penny obstinately refused to answer my post?

<grrrrrrr>
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 18, 2005, 07:27:37 PM
Quote
I think we can all put two and two together.  

Unfortunately, this is not a simple math problem to be solved.  It's a mystery that we actually enjoy exploring.  Yes, we may know who "dunnit", but we find great joy and stimulation in looking at all of the characters, following different leads even though they may be all wrong, and talking about the process!


Yes, you don't have to be a math major. But it's a subject that keeps holding my attention. AA is a mystery even after the mystery is for all intent and purposes solved. I wish I could have met her so I could have drawn my own conclusions.

I know many people of good repute met her and believed. Spent their money to help her.

Darn, way too late late and a more than a dollar short!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 18, 2005, 07:39:01 PM
Helen.

I quess I was just trying to get you to MAYBE say it was possible that several maternally related women at that time could have produced a good number of children. They could have like my family lost touch( who could invite the crew I outlined to a wedding and afford it ;D) .

They could have lived in the same area most of their lives....and it is possible that more than one woman went missing at the time FS disappeared and AA got fished out of the river.

I am starting to think that my mtDna is out there everywhere. And we only go back to the USA 3 generations.

Thanks for your imput.

Susie
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 18, 2005, 07:58:32 PM
I agree Inquiring Mind. For some reason, this issue never rests. I think there is much that we do not know and many unanswered questions. Until those questions are answered, I don't think this will die. And that is as it should be. My mind is a lot more open about this than when I first came to this discussion group. Call me crazy, it won't be the last time.  ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 18, 2005, 08:03:26 PM
Quote
I agree Inquiring Mind. For some reason, this issue never rests. I think there is much that we do not know and many unanswered questions. Until those questions are answered, I don't think this will die. And that is as it should be. My mind is a lot more open about this than when I first came to this discussion group. Call me crazy, it won't be the last time.  ;)


We are two thinking the same thing, lexi4! As long as I have questions about this AA case, I'll don't consider it as closed...But, uh...I already said it too many times.  ;D I'm repeating myself!

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 18, 2005, 08:08:11 PM
Given time...some will come full circle...having AA as AN... again.... ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 18, 2005, 08:16:25 PM
Quote
Given time...some will come full circle...having AA as AN... again.... ::)


I don't think that will play out....

Unless you and Teddy know something we don't?

Susie
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 18, 2005, 08:16:36 PM
Quote

I'm not actively searching at this point, as I have two other book projects that I'm working on right now.  

It would be very interesting to compare the two sets of prints, wouldn't it?  Either there would be a match -- in which case, another item pro Anastasia Manahan being Franziska Schanzkowska.  Or there wouldn't be a match -- in which case -- what?  Certainly an item in the favor of those who do not agree that AM was FS... But either way, I predict much more fodder for the conspiracy theory team: planted cards, mislabelled cards, how can we know they're authentic....  ;D



Hmmm!!! What interesting thing! As you may notice with a simple glance over my post, I'm one of the "conspiracy theory team", and I'm burning in my own curiosity asking to myself why you predict "...much more fodder for the conspiracy team...". I'm have a stubborn conspirative mind, and I don't think AA was FS (perhaps she was, but I know too much infos contradicting it that I can't accept AM as FS. Yes, there is DNA, the only evidence of AM being FS. THE ONLY evidence...Ah...I forgot about a very retouched old photo). Your post relieved me. So are we able to said that in the next years to come the whole affair will still being interesting?I wrote in some other post, that in my opinion (it's only opinion) we will be able to discuss about this subject more thoroughly, only in a near future... Maybe, I was not so crazy.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: jeremygaleaz on July 18, 2005, 09:24:21 PM
Quote
I think we can all put two and two together.


I'd like to believe that... I really really really would! But (sigh) I just don't think that's possible for everyone... it's a bit like world peace....

(excludes people who are just starting out on reading about AA for the first time of course. Hey, everyone was new once. )



Quote
Unfortunately, this is not a simple math problem to be solved


Actually, math played a huge part in solving the mystery of AA's identity. It's just not a simple math problem....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Penny_Wilson on July 19, 2005, 09:10:55 AM
Quote
.....so....did anyone else notice that Penny obstinately refused to answer my post?

<grrrrrrr>



;D   8)  

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: etonexile on July 19, 2005, 09:22:13 AM
Quote

I don't think that will play out....

Unless you and Teddy know something we don't?

Susie


In the right light...erm...ok....pitch dark....Teddy's ears look suspiciously like those of six out of nine members of the IF....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 19, 2005, 04:44:44 PM
If FS was murdered, has anyone wondered what she was doing between the time she was reported missing to the 13th of Aug. ??

TIMELINE FOR FS:

1919  
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<  
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS  
 
Date reported missing:  
March 1920
 

13 Aug 1920 :  Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski


March, April, May, June and July is "five months".

Was she with girlfriends?

With a new boyfriend?

Did she actually go to England?

Could she have met the real GD Anastasia on the boat?  [Hey, just thought I'd throw this in to see how many are reading my entired post  ;D.]

July 1920: a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where thye had found employment as domestic servants.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road
 
 Perhaps finding the work not what she expected, did she returned to Germany?  Returned around Aug.???

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 19, 2005, 05:29:53 PM
Quote

You keep repeating this "99.9% match" chant, but again - that's wrong, the match was 100%. Yes, any maternal relative of Gertrude's will have the same mtDNA, but this is not what I am talking about when I say less than 1% chance. Statistically speaking it is impossible that AA just happened to be some random maternal relative of Gertrude's and not FS, her sister. Again: based on the mtDNA bank comparison, the chance that AA was Gertrude's random maternal relative is less than 1% - which means impossible.

We seem to be continuosly discussing apples and oranges.  Anyway, I am going to give up on this because it is obvious that we are not speaking the same language...


Helen >> ...the match was 100%. Yes, any maternal relative of Gertrude's will have the same mtDNA<<

Bear:  "...any maternal relative of Gertrude's will have the same mtDNA...<<

InquiringMind tells us the following:

Quote
I am trying very hard to see everyone's point of view.

Please bear with me. I want to ask if this is how it works.

I have the same mtdna as my mother and her mother. Yes?

My grandmother had a sister(same  mother) who was very fruitful. She has 13 children. So her 13 children's mtdna would match mine?

Ten of the 13 were daughters. They had at least 5 children apiece. So would those 50+ people have the same mtdna as I?

We have lost track of this branch of the family basically because of the large number of people involved.

So let's say that 25 of the 50+ were women. And for illustration 10 of them are now mothers. Would these ten people have the same mtdna as I?

In just 3 generations from one woman were there about 70 or more people who have my mtdna? Many of these people live in my part of the state. But I would not recognize them or their marraige names at this point.

I think Bear is saying that during FS's time many people went missing. Many people also didn't stray too far from where they were born. People had large families.

So this is why I question if AA was FS or relative to FS.

Does mtdna mutate in three or four generations or would the children of the ten match mine 99% or would there be differences?

Thanks



She is telling us in her own family that 70+ female cousins in 3 generations would have the same mtDNA.  Some whom have lost contact.

My one grandmother had 93 descendants before she died.  Over half were females.  This means that I have more than 46 cousins  [first to third] with the same mtDNA.  That was back in the 1980s.  We all have lost count since then.  A couple of months ago,  I discovered I have a cousin 's daughter living about a mile from where I live and others living about five miles away.....  I would not reconize them if I came face to face.  

There is, also, a family joke regarding to a family on my father's side.  If a person lives in a particular state who is a particular religion and is a GR  [German Russian] then he or she is probably a cousin which dates back to ONE female ancestor who migrated to Russia in 1806.  And if not related then he/she  is married to a cousin. Yep, they were a healthy long living bunch who produced like rabbits.

So,  I'm not sure about your 1% stat, Helen.

Remember, the Schanzkowsky were said to be connected to an old Polish noblemen,  then the odds even go higher.  The upper circles had more money, more land and along with this better food which resulted in more children living to be adults.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 19, 2005, 07:48:47 PM
Thank you Bear. I have never seen a timeline and that helps a lot. I did not know about witness named Bruno Grandsitzki. Where did you read this? I would like to read more if there is more available.

Bear, I found a timeline you did for AA on another post in this thread. I wanted to pull it over to compare with the one you have for FS, but don't know how. Can you help? I think it would be interesting to compare the two.
Thank you
lexi4
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: rskkiya on July 20, 2005, 11:49:09 AM
Quote
Helen:  Oh, good!  Glad you made that decision.  I know it is frustrating for you, and there's just no need in life to be frustrated when you don't have to be!


Finelly Please!
You have commented again and again that we need to be civil so please don't belittle Helen_ Azar's patience -- she has been trying to explain the subtleties of the evidence to us for almost a year...

Some of us are still confused and are grateful for her explanations!

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Finelly on July 20, 2005, 03:07:40 PM
I'm sorry.  I didn't realize that people are still confused.

I thought everyone here had either accepted one conclusion or were still open to other ideas.

My bad.

However, the concept of beating a dead horse.......
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 20, 2005, 05:43:56 PM
Quote


July 1920: a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where thye had found employment as domestic servants.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road
 
 Perhaps finding the work not what she expected, did she returned to Germany?  Returned around Aug.???

AGRBear


My mom went to NYC during the depression to work for a family as a domestic. The wealthy family paid for her train fare and gave her money upfront which she gave to her parents, who had 6 younger children. She was 13 yrs old. She wore a flower pinned to her coat as did the lady who sponsered her, as they had never met. The arrangement involved a commitment of time by my mother who became the nanny. (I often think it was a minor miracle that SHE was ever seen again.)

I am quessing that FS's passage would have been paid in a similar arrangement and she would have likely had to commit to working for a length of time to justify that money spent. If she didn't like her employment, she might have easily found herself homeless. I don't believe she would have earned enough money as a domestic in such a short time to get herself back to Germany, since most of the consideration is paid in room and board.


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2005, 08:41:14 PM
Here is the Bruno data:

Quote
In ANASTAISIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Peter Kurth there is a section called "The Trails--First Instance (19958-1961).

Starting on p. 307 there is presented to us a witness named Bruno Grandsitzki:  "...who claimed that he had met Franziska at Danzig in July 1920....  Grandsitzki remember that Franziska and 'some other girls' had been making ready to sail for England, where thye had found employment as domestic servnats.  The ship ws called the Premier.. and Franziksa had even given him her new address in London.  It was 'Bedford Road'..."

Book doesn't tell us anything about Grandsitzki and why the lawyers of AA thought he was a credible witness.  Farther investigation went into the various ships by that name and there was some attempt to find the road in London and there were many roads, lanes etc., it seems.

Nothing more is said in the book.

I have no idea what kind of weight this witness had upon the court.

AGRBear


Evidently,  Bruno was important enough to be found and was part of AA's trial.

As for the domestic work FS may have found in London, the cost boat fare, etc.,  I don't have additional information.  

Does anyone know what the cost would have been?  If we knew then we would know if the fare was reasonable.  

I assume those days are ot different then now.  Domestics were probably poorly paid in 1920.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: Inquiring_Mind on July 20, 2005, 08:47:08 PM
There is a Bedford Rd in London.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2005, 08:56:14 PM
Evidently there was/is more than one plus Bedford Lane, Court etc. .

At the moment,  I don't recall if Kurth's book voiced which were possible and which  were not.  Maybe the years which had passed changed these areas too much in order for anyone to follow this trail.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2005, 08:57:40 PM
FS Timeline

Quote
New Timeline List - 18 May 2005 
 
>>>1896<<<
Date  of birth:
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.
 
>>>1914<<<
"In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory."
 
>>>1916<<<
 
___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front."  
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane
 
>>>19??<<<
"Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library"  
 
1919
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS
 
Date reported missing:
9 March 1920:  "...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2005, 09:01:46 PM
AA Timeline:

Quote
>>9:00 PM, 18 Feb 1920
     The person who is to be known as Anna Anderson jumped off the Bendler Bridge into the Landwehr Canal, in Berlin.  She was pulled out of the water by Police Serg. Hallman and taken to Elizabeth Hospial in Lutzowstrasse  

>>End of March 1920 AA was sent to Dalldorf Asylum

>>Doctors exaimination on 30 March 1920 recorded her weight at 110 pounds and her height at just under five feet two...

>>17 June 1920 AA was fingerprinted and photographed.  These photographs were sent from Berlin out to   Stuttgart, Brunswick, Hamurg, Munich, Dresden... (Weimar Republic).  Places in Berlin, which probably included FS asylum where she spent some time more than once, were checked throughly....  Family members of those who had lost a dau., wife... were brought to see AA...  This included the family of a Maria Wacowiak in Posen....

>>autumn of 1921 AA announced she as the GD Anastasia and talked about the jewels sewn in her clothes

>>Claire Peuthert was committed to Dalldorf at the end of 1921

>>6 March 1922 Claire Peuthert tells Capt. Nicholas von Schwabe about AA, whom she said looked like GD Tatiana.... was at Dalldorf

>> 7 March 1922 Capt. Scwabe phoned his friend Franz Jaenicke and they agreeed to go to Dalldorf on Wed. , 9th of March....  Claire P. showed up at Capt. Schwabe's apartment

>> 9 March 1922  The first known contact of Capt Scwabe at Dalldorf, Ward B.  With him was Jaenicke.

>> 9 March, Wed.,  1922 the Supreme Monarchist Council heard about AA and so the word quickly spread through the whole emigre colony in Berlin....  The SMC sent guards to Dalldorf, people spoke with the doctors at Dalldorf, and people were sent to speak to the police....

>> 10 March 1922 Capt Scwabe brought to AA in Dalldorf Zinaida Tolstoy and her daughter, and, also, there was a Capt. Andreievsky

>>12 March, Sat., 1922  Baroness Buxoeveden arrived at Dalldorf to see AA with Zinaida Tolstoy.  It was the Baroness who pulled AA out of bed and declared that AA was too short to be Tatiana...  The Baroness left with little to say accept that AA resembled the GD Tatiana then went off to declare AA was not GD Tatiana as it had been thought ....

>>____ March 1922 Later, AA declared she had never said she was Tatina, which was apparently true,  AA had said she was Anastasia and everyone realized the mistake Buxoevenden had made and Capt. Schwabe continued to help AA.   The mistake had been created by Claire P.

>> 27 July 1925:  "Shura did NOT meet AA until July 27, 1925.  She met with AA along with Ambassador Zahle, Pierre Gilliard.  So there was a full 5 almost 5 1/2 years after Feb 1920 that she met with Shura or Gilliard, " Michael wrote.

>>On May 9, 1927  AA was taken for a meeting with Felix Schanzkowska the brother of Francisca.

>>9 July 1938:  The second meeting took place in Hannover on July 9, 1938.  At this meeting were: Marie Juliana, Valerian, Felix & Gertrude,  AA,  Fallows, Frau Madsack & Gleb Botkin, at the Police Headquarters, this meeting took place through the orders of the Government, and the manipulation of the new head of the Russian Emigre Office in Berlin 

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: AGRBear on July 20, 2005, 09:53:31 PM
If questions are still being asked, then the subject is not closed.  

Even if some considered the subject is closed, this should not prevent some of us who do not think the subject is closed  to ask questions such as: Were Gertrude and FS Sisters?  

So, far,  all I can agree is that Gertrude and AA were probably relatives due to the mtDNA tests.

We can agree that most people think that Gertrude and FS were sisters.

Just as we can agree that Gertrude did not have a birth or baptismal certificates which tell us she is the daughter of Anton S. or his first wife, or his second wife, or,  Anton's brother's [if he had a brother] or sister's [if he had a sister]who was brought into the family to be raised.....

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #2
Post by: lexi4 on July 20, 2005, 11:50:31 PM
Thank you bear.