Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: AGRBear on July 25, 2005, 11:41:56 PM

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 25, 2005, 11:41:56 PM
Here is a post about FS and her timeline.  You'll have to go to the original post to see what I've not copied:

She was answering Finelly's question: >>on Today at 11:08pm, Finelly wrote: 2.   Any research that's been done in to FS's life prior to the date of AA's emergence from the canal.  Do we have actual documentation of anything? <<


Quote

... [in part]....
I have a copy of the 1928 Court Investigator's Report in which he traveled to Borowy Las, interviewed her family, teachers and friends, and recorded sundry other impressions and items of interest for the German Court at the start of the trial.

There are sundry other pieces of testimony in the court transcript from friends and acquaintances FS made in Berlin. I have this transcript also.

Both are in German, and I have thought about posting them in translation, but I've been quite busy with my new book, and haven't  had time.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 26, 2005, 02:04:42 PM
>>Shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, 4 Aug 1914, Franziska left  Bororwihlas for Berlin, fell in love and got engaged.  Her future husband was called to the army, and Franziska got  job at a munition factory owned by the elecrical company AEG in Berlin.  In 1916 her fiance was killed on the western front.  Shortly after this tragedy, Franziska let a grenade slip out of her hands as she was working on the assembly line, and it exploded.  She was injured slightly in her head, but a foreman was blown to pieces in the accident before her very eyes.  She was deeply shocked, left the factory and worked on a farm, becoming a apthetic and spending long periods in bed.<< p. 224 in Klier and Mingay's THE QUEST FOR ANASTASIA.

1914 -
Shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska left  Bororwihlas for Berlin

1914-1916 -

1) fell in love and got engaged.  Her future husband was called to the army, and Franziska got  job at a munition factory owned by the elecrical company AEG in Berlin

1916
1)  her fiance was killed on the western front
2) Shortly after this tragedy, Franziska let a grenade slip out of her hands as she was working on the assembly line, and it exploded.

1916-1917??
1)  She was deeply shocked, left the factory and worked on a farm
2) becoming a apthetic and spending long periods in bed


----

Too add to FS's occupations,  Robert Massie wrote in THE ROMANOVS, THE FINAL CHAPTER P. 248:

>>...Franziska, at age eighteen, let the Polish provinces for Berlin.  She worked as a waitress...."<<

She worked on a farm.  Who's farm?   Where was it and for how long did she work there?  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: etonexile on July 26, 2005, 05:32:26 PM
WOW...My cousin Selena has worked on farms and as a waitress....but I'd never have this much info on her....Amazing,truely.....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: etonexile on July 26, 2005, 05:37:27 PM
WOW...My cousin Selena has worked on farms and as a waitress....but I'd never have this much info on her....Amazing,truely.....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on July 26, 2005, 11:38:50 PM
Quote
WOW...My cousin Selena has worked on farms and as a waitress....but I'd never have this much info on her....Amazing,truely.....



EE, we actually have very LITTLE specific information on FS.  Not enough for a determination of identity IMO.  There are no known photographs but 1.  The family had sporadic contact with her.  

When I think of the information I have on my grandparents who were alive at the same time, I have  volumes.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on August 15, 2005, 03:51:52 PM
As often happens, a subject appears on other threads:

Quote

....[in part]....

Here is some of the Grossman dossier I have been able to gather from other threads, and from the web.  There isn't a great deal out there yet.


 .....There are copies of Grossmann's trial transcripts -- or the German version thereof -- extant in at least one town in Germany.  Berlin, as we all know, was hideously bombed by the Allies at the end of WWII, and many, many buildings were destroyed along with their contents.  One of these buildings stored Berlin police records and archives; however, then as now, there were people interested in the phenomenon of what came to be known as serial killing.  At least one of these people, a doctor of psychology, had copies of documents from Grossmann's trial -- and his descendants allowed Greg and I access.
 
German court procedure is a little different from that of the US.  Here, a killer might be responsible for ten or twelve murders, but will only be charged with one or two so that there are still live cases against him should anything go wrong with the prosecution.  Grossmann's trial was not like that.  He was charged with a list of murders, some of them identified only by the name he placed in his own diary.  The evidence given was short and sweet and fairly d**ning -- he was caught red-handed (literally) with the semi-dismembered body of a young woman in his "shop."  There was also the evidence of his own hand, in the form of his diary.  Evidence was given in several specific victim cases, but not in all of them.  In the list of victims he was accused and convicted of murdering was the name "(female) Saznovski."  
 
This was the individual whom the Berlin police believed was Franziska Schanzkowska.  In the course of their lengthy investigation, in which they identified victims known by only one name -- like Saznovski -- information included in missing persons reports were cross-matched with the victimology, including what Grossmann had written in his diary.  What was written about Saznovski was sufficient for the Berlin police -- a highly regarded professional body -- to conclude that Saznovski was Franziska.  They broke the news to the Schanzkowsky family, and they laid Franziska to rest until 1927 when the Berliner Nachtausgabe disinterred her.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on August 15, 2005, 03:53:29 PM
Bear, that summary of what we had on the Grossman end of the case was for the Reveiw de Novo, to discuss the facts and sources of the various evidence in the AA case.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on August 15, 2005, 04:05:43 PM
Just making posters aware that the subject is being discussed on another thread and if they are interested they click on the Michael G. wrote on top of your post within my post and it'll take them there....  Then they can see the posts around it.

I appreciated when others lead me to the same subject even if it's not the main topic on the other thread.

We can get scattered  ;D

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on August 16, 2005, 03:07:58 PM
Do we know where FS went to school and for how long?  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Richard_Schweitzer on August 16, 2005, 10:20:15 PM
Yes there were records of her school. I have some notes someplace, but Penny can probably be more exact
Her school was in what is today Bytow, quite some distance from her family's house. Best I could gauge she wasin school until about age 16
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on August 18, 2005, 03:50:53 PM
Thanks for the information Richard.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on August 18, 2005, 03:57:10 PM
New Timeline List - 18 Aug 2005   
 
>>>1896<<<  
Date  of birth:  
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.  

>>>ca 1902/3  to ca 1912<<<

FS attended school and for some of the time or all of the time was in "Bytow, quite some distance from her family's house"
 
>>>1914<<<  
"In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory."  
 
>>>1916<<<  
 
___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front."  
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane  
 
>>>19??<<<  
"Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library"  
 
1919  
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<  
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS  
 
Date reported missing:  
9 March 1920:  "...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: lexi4 on September 19, 2005, 11:11:02 PM
In light of discussions on one of the other threads, I thought I  would bump this one up.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 19, 2005, 11:48:20 PM
Quote
They broke the news to the Schanzkowsky family, and they laid Franziska to rest until 1927 when the Berliner Nachtausgabe disinterred her.  


I pulled this from what I assume was originally a post by Penny Wilson quoted by Michael G. Does it mean that there is a grave marked "Franziska Schankowska" extant?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: stepan on September 21, 2005, 06:33:43 PM
Quote

I pulled this from what I assume was originally a post by Penny Wilson quoted by Michael G. Does it mean that there is a grave marked "Franziska Schankowska" extant?


No, there is no such grave. The story about Grossman is too vague. He wrote the name Sosnovsky in his diary.  There is no evidence whasoever that this refered to Franziska Schanzkowska.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: lexi4 on September 21, 2005, 08:10:26 PM
Quote

No, there is no such grave. The story about Grossman is too vague. He wrote the name Sosnovsky in his diary.  There is no evidence whasoever that this refered to Franziska Schanzkowska.


Stephan,
I have always heard that the Berlin police notified FS's family in August 1920 that FS was murdered by Grossmann. Is that incorrect? They must have had some reason for connecting the missings FS as one of his victims.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: stepan on September 22, 2005, 03:41:17 PM
I don´t know exactly when the Schanzkowski family was notified by the Berlin police about their supposition that Franziska was killed by this mass murderer. As far as I know the police diden´t have any real evidence but based this on Grossman´s diary entry where the name Sasnovki was written as one of his victims. Sorry I can´t be more specific on this Lexi!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 22, 2005, 05:04:57 PM
AA jumped into the canal in Feb 1920.

FS was reported missing 9 March 1920.

Grossman  had written on the 13 Aug 1920 the name which he spelled the way he heard FS's Polish name.  Hewasn't arrested until Aug of 1921.

The police told FS's family that she was killed by Grossmann on the 13th of Aug 1920.  I do not know the date the police met with the family of FS to tell them the news.

Those who do not find the two names as similiar, and, don't even think it's even close,  go over to the FS thread,  sometime back, I ran off all the names that were the same from the soundex I use for my genealogy research.  

If you continue to have a problem then ask yourself the following:
(1)The Berlin police didn't have any problem with the two names?  

(2)The FS family didn't have a problem with the two names.

So, if the Berlin police and the FS family didn't have a problem with the two names,  then why do so many of you?

The spelling of a name and DNA are two different topics.

Example:  How many of you pronounced the "u" in aunt or are your aunts "ants"?

AGRBear






Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: etonexile on September 23, 2005, 09:03:13 PM
Spelling or misspelling of names is a human foible...DNA is science.....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: jeremygaleaz on September 23, 2005, 10:09:47 PM
Quote
Spelling or misspelling of names is a human foible...DNA is science.....


Not to mention that the Schankowsky family totally believes AA=FS, and none of the descendants were ever told that their Aunt Franciska was murdered.

Bear you are  totally spinning fantasy( as usual  ::))  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 23, 2005, 11:01:34 PM
Quote

Not to mention that the Schankowsky family totally believes AA=FS, and none of the descendants were ever told that their Aunt Franciska was murdered.



Sources please?????????????????
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: lexi4 on September 23, 2005, 11:40:04 PM
Quote

Not to mention that the Schankowsky family totally believes AA=FS, and none of the descendants were ever told that their Aunt Franciska was murdered.

Bear you are  totally spinning fantasy( as usual  ::))  


Where did you get this? Her family denied that she was FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 24, 2005, 08:19:00 AM
Quote

Where did you get this? Her family denied that she was FS.


We know that, but cannot rule out the very likely scenario that they did so to save both her and them a lot of trouble, legal, financial, not to mention embarrassment. They did say it was her at first, then claimed to 'change their minds'.  Did they really change their minds, or only change their minds about claiming her? Who'd want to expose someone to that kind of embarrassment and drag her home kicking and screaming and hating you forever, not to mention facing charges for filing a false claim and being responsible for legal stuff? This is one of those put 2 and 2 together things. Some of of you who cry 'source' seem to do so because you can quote one of those AA books and think that backs you up and throw off all other speculation that way. Strange that some of you love to speculate in other ways, but won't consider any other scenario on things that suit AA. Oh well! If we really want the truth we must consider every possibilty, right?

And, if she was so 'dead' why was she even brought up in the trial, why was her family even brought in? Obviously there were serious doubts that the results were final. Mistakes do happen.

I do hope Jeremy will post again and tell us more!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: etonexile on September 24, 2005, 09:48:47 AM
As AA lived long enough to leave a tissue sample which was analysed by four labs...with the same results...I don't think she was served with noodles for Sunday luncheon...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 24, 2005, 02:45:59 PM
Quote
...[in part]...
I do hope Jeremy will post again and tell us more!


A source would be very nice.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 24, 2005, 03:11:45 PM
Quote

We know that, but cannot rule out the very likely scenario that they did so to save both her and them a lot of trouble, legal, financial, not to mention embarrassment. They did say it was her at first, then claimed to 'change their minds'.  Did they really change their minds, or only change their minds about claiming her? Who'd want to expose someone to that kind of embarrassment and drag her home kicking and screaming and hating you forever, not to mention facing charges for filing a false claim and being responsible for legal stuff? This is one of those put 2 and 2 together things. Some of of you who cry 'source' seem to do so because you can quote one of those AA books and think that backs you up and throw off all other speculation that way. Strange that some of you love to speculate in other ways, but won't consider any other scenario on things that suit AA. Oh well! If we really want the truth we must consider every possibilty, right?

And, if she was so 'dead' why was she even brought up in the trial, why was her family even brought in? Obviously there were serious doubts that the results were final. Mistakes do happen.

I do hope Jeremy will post again and tell us more!



We who call for sources want to make sure that we are not getting false or non verifiable information, even if it is from one of "those" AA books you show disdain for.

I think every possibility needs to be explored, and as far as speaking for the Schanzkowska family, I think we need to look at the fact that not one of the siblings of FS ever signed an affadavit, and the nieces and nephews never KNEW their "Auntie" FS.....  I think no one REALLY knew her.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 24, 2005, 06:01:31 PM
As a genealogist, don't you constantly deal with info handed down as family history, though you never 'knew' the person? And haven't we *yawn* been through all these same lines a thousand times, and gotten nowhere, like a dog chasing his tail?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: lexi4 on September 24, 2005, 08:30:23 PM
Quote
As a genealogist, don't you constantly deal with info handed down as family history, though you never 'knew' the person? And haven't we *yawn* been through all these same lines a thousand times, and gotten nowhere, like a dog chasing his tail?

Annie,
If you are tired of the discussion all you have to do is ignore it. You don't have to participate. Please do not distrupt the thread.

Now, back to topic.
Ok. If the diary entry in Grossman's diary indicated that FS was murdered in Aug. 1920, that it had to be after that that police told her family she was murdered. This would have happened after AA was already on the scene. Felix didn't go see her until 1927 after a lot of publicity about her claim. Don't you think that if AA was FS he would have recognized her before then and gone to see her? He thought his sister had been murdered? Or, was he so isloated that he missed all of the publicity surrounding AA's case? There should be records of the police reports on Grossman that would include when they went to see FS's family. Does anyone have access to those?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 25, 2005, 10:16:53 AM
Quote
As a genealogist, don't you constantly deal with info handed down as family history, though you never 'knew' the person? And haven't we *yawn* been through all these same lines a thousand times, and gotten nowhere, like a dog chasing his tail?



Yes of course I do, but I am VERY careful about the heresay evidence I consider as valid.  Yes we have been through these discussions before Annie, but as Lexi stated if you don't like the discussion you don't have to participate.   ;D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 25, 2005, 04:03:00 PM
Berlin-Grossmann was not arrested until 1921.

His diary about the person believed to be FS whom he murdered  was dated 13 Aug 1920.

Berlin-AA jumped into the canal in Feb of 1920. Police check local possibilities as well as other areas like Hamburg .... Posen..... They brought in family members to see if AA the one missing..... Fingerprints and photographs were used...


Berlin-FS was reported missing on 9 March 1920.   I assume they were given a photo or photos of FS by the family.....

So,  the police would not have linked FS's murder until Aug. of 1921.

Through this investigation,  the family of FS was notified after Grossmann's arrest in Aug. of 1921.  The police told FS's family that she was murdered by Grossmann on the date 13 Aug 1920....  I do not know what the date was that the police told FS's family.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: lexi4 on September 26, 2005, 12:25:40 AM
thank you bear.
It is interesting to note that the Berlin police did not make a connection between the two woman. they had photographs etc of those living in the asylum. They never make a connection from AA to FS. As we all know. that didn't happen until later.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 26, 2005, 07:41:36 AM
Quote
thank you bear.
It is interesting to note that the Berlin police did not make a connection between the two woman. they had photographs etc of those living in the asylum. They never make a connection from AA to FS. As we all know. that didn't happen until later.



As I have stated before I have alwas found it more than curious, that the detective hired by beloved Uncle Ernie, chose a dead girl, whose family believed that she was dead, and who the police believed was dead, and that his main witnesses to his case were the credibility impugned Wingenders.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 26, 2005, 08:51:03 AM
Quote


As I have stated before I have alwas found it more than curious, that the detective hired by beloved Uncle Ernie, chose a dead girl, whose family believed that she was dead, and who the police believed was dead, and that his main witnesses to his case were the credibility impugned Wingenders.


Since you are stating pure opinion with no sources, I suppose I am free to do the same.

First, the detective didn't 'choose' a 'dead' girl, he did an investigation and found out who she was, and he did turn out to be right. Those of you who love to investigate should find a way to get into the 'source' of this guy's investigation and how it was done. You might just find out he knew a lot of things you aren't giving him credit for, and it might be more interesting than you think.

Second, as I have said before, if she was so 'dead' why was she even brought up in a trial, why were DNA tests made on her? The 'dead' theory was not very strong, since there was no evidence in the case other than cirumstantial guessing. And if you want to bring up how wonderful the Berlin police dept. was, then why didn't they, as Lexi said, make the connection to AA in the asylum, or at least investigate this? The main reasons I would presume are human error, apathy, too much else to do, and remember this case was not earthshattering at the time. FS and/or AA was poor and unknown, it wasn't like us now being obsessed with every bit of info on her. They really didn't care, they had other and more important cases on their minds.

However, after AA came to worldwide notoriety, things changed. Obviously, and I do mean OBVIOUSLY, no one at the time of the trial considered FS 'dead' anymore.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 26, 2005, 10:40:44 AM
Since the trial of AA was to prove she was GD Anastasia,  it was  important for her opposition  to claim AA was someone else.  Just because FS was brought into the trial does not mean this evidence was accepted by the judges.  It was of course viewed by the judges.  Evidently,  what was presented wasn't enough to prove AA was FS.  

I'd like to see the actual words of the German court judge which states that AA was FS  because if you have seen this,  I must have missed this evidence.  

Could you please give us your source.

From what I understand,  the trial was to prove AA was GD Anastasia.  And, from what I understand AA won her appeal to have a retrial to prove she was GD Anastasia, therefore, technically,  the case is still open in the German court.

On several of these threads several of us have quoted sources to provide the posters this information.

As for the DNA,  we know the tests of the intestines show a link of mtDNA between AA and Gertrude S.  This means the two of them could have been sisters or  first to thirty-fifth cousins.

Even though it appears that Gertrude S. was the sister of FS because they lived in the home of the same family of Anton S.'s,  \we do not know if they had the same mothers.  Anton S. was married more than once.  Gertrude may have been the issue of the first wife.  In order to prove this,  research has been done to find the birth certifcate and / or baptismal record of Gertrude.  Nothing.  Which means we don't know who Gertrude's mother was.  In fact, we cannot even prove she was the daughter of Anton S..

Was AA proven to be FS?  No.

Can we assume AA was FS?  That is completely up to the poster.

What do I think?  I'm keeping an open mind.

AGRBear



Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 26, 2005, 11:12:23 AM
Quote

Since you are stating pure opinion with no sources, I suppose I am free to do the same.

First, the detective didn't 'choose' a 'dead' girl, he did an investigation and found out who she was, and he did turn out to be right. Those of you who love to investigate should find a way to get into the 'source' of this guy's investigation and how it was done. You might just find out he knew a lot of things you aren't giving him credit for, and it might be more interesting than you think.

Second, as I have said before, if she was so 'dead' why was she even brought up in a trial, why were DNA tests made on her? The 'dead' theory was not very strong, since there was no evidence in the case other than cirumstantial guessing. And if you want to bring up how wonderful the Berlin police dept. was, then why didn't they, as Lexi said, make the connection to AA in the asylum, or at least investigate this? The main reasons I would presume are human error, apathy, too much else to do, and remember this case was not earthshattering at the time. FS and/or AA was poor and unknown, it wasn't like us now being obsessed with every bit of info on her. They really didn't care, they had other and more important cases on their minds.

However, after AA came to worldwide notoriety, things changed. Obviously, and I do mean OBVIOUSLY, no one at the time of the trial considered FS 'dead' anymore.



No he didn't "turn out to be right".  

Secondly there many who considered FS dead, and that was among the AA supporters, so to make a statment like that is an assumption.  Remember at the END of the trials, the court ruled that she hadn't produced enough evidence to prove that she was Anastasia, but it didn't state that she was proven to be  Franziska Schanzkowska either.

As far as Ernie's detective goes, again I will state that it has always been curious to me that in a city the size of Berlin and it's suburbs with all of the missing persons likely to be reported at that time, that he chose a woman of polish extraction, of which very little was known, and only ONE faded photograph to identify her could be produced, and his main witnesses, the Wingenders, ended up having little or no credibility, and that his case was based on their testimony, which in court fell apart.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 26, 2005, 12:20:58 PM
Quote
p. 177 ANASTASIA, THE RIDDLE OF ANNA ANDERSON by Kurth:

In regards to AA's appeal to the lower courts decision, German Supreme Court decision on 17 Feb 1970 was:

>>technically, [the AA case], was not closed.  The judgment held that Anastasia's claim must be regarded as "no liquet" -- "neither established nor refuted", unsatisfactory to both parties.<<

This also menat that she was free to >>change her name legally to "Anatasia Nicolaieva Romanov"<< and >>Judge Pegedarm wanted it undertstood that his ruling constututed no reflection on Anastasia's true identiy:  "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."<<

AGRBear



Let me repeat the last legal word spoken about the AA case:

 "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 26, 2005, 12:39:30 PM
Quote


Let me repeat the last legal word spoken about the AA case:

 "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."

AGRBear


You know Bear it's strange, while I don't believe she was AN, I clearly I am not convinced of the fact that she was FS, I find it even stranger that posts are made with inferences of an incorrect verdict, from those who make it their job to disseminate bits of misnformation.  

Thanks for reproducing the verdict here again, your resourcefulness is greatly appreciated, as are ALL of your efforts!! ;D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 26, 2005, 12:40:42 PM
Of course, the Hamburg court had decided that she was not Anastasia. The open-ended decision of the supreme court was a ruling about whether Andersons rights had been violated during that trial. To put it simply,  I am not sure that the appeal was designed to prove that she was Anastasia in the first place, merely that she had not been denied a legitimate opportunity to do so in the lower courts.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 26, 2005, 01:17:22 PM
Let me repeat the last legal word spoken about the AA case:

 "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."

The court did not decide that AA was not Grand Duchess Anastasia and there was no mention of AA being FS since it was not proven or even a major part of the trial.  Yes, it was a part but then so were the fake photographs of the Winganders.   So was the testimony that a witness had last seen FS with girlfriends in July of 1920 and the girls  were talking about heading to England to work as domestics.  FS even gave him her future address.

Ahhh yes,  another piece of evidence often avoided by some posters.

Don't have the books next to me at this time but I can certainly find this witness' name and  the source which claims he testified in AA's trial.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 26, 2005, 01:38:11 PM
Quote
  So was the testimony that a witness had last seen FS with girlfriends in July of 1920 and the girls  were talking about heading to England to work as domestics.  FS even gave him her future address.

Ahhh yes,  another piece of evidence often avoided by some posters.



AGRBear


I'm not avoiding it, I just don't put any value in it. In many cases, someone will swear they saw someone somewhere on a certain date when in fact the date was wrong, or the person was a case of mistaken identity, or, perhaps, some people even lie to give an alibi to a buddy. So this is also something that is only one person's word of mouth that cannot be proven.

Two years ago, my son's English teacher called me up and told me that she had seen my son going into the woods with some boys at a football game, and she thought they were up to no good. When she told me the date and time, I told her she must have been mistaken, he was with me at the movie theater at that time. She got very overbearing and swore that it was him, she didn't make mistakes, she had a 'photographic memory' for faces, and that she would swear her hand on a Bible in court it was him because she knew it was him.

But it wasn't.

Human error happens.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 26, 2005, 01:44:05 PM
Quote
Of course, the Hamburg court had decided that she was not Anastasia.


There was no case to prove if she was FS or not, that was not the question, not for the court to decide. If they wanted an answer to that, there would have to be a separate trial.

Here I go again with analogies:

My friend was sued by his landlord, and he tried to get out of it by saying he didn't owe his landlord for something because the landlord owed him for something else. He lost. He was told, this case is not about item #2 it's about item #1, and if you want to fight item  #2 come back and file your own case.  Like when someone is found innocent in a case, they don't go tell you who is guilty. That's another case.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 26, 2005, 02:43:30 PM
Quote

There was no case to prove if she was FS or not, that was not the question, not for the court to decide. If they wanted an answer to that, there would have to be a separate trial.

Here I go again with analogies:

My friend was sued by his landlord, and he tried to get out of it by saying he didn't owe his landlord for something because the landlord owed him for something else. He lost. He was told, this case is not about item #2 it's about item #1, and if you want to fight item  #2 come back and file your own case.  Like when someone is found innocent in a case, they don't go tell you who is guilty. That's another case.



Let's stop with these ad hoc analogies, they have little to do with the subject matter, and aren't relevant to the discussion at hand.  

It is safe to say that neither side won during the court case,  and that for those of us that don't believe that AA is FS, the case remains open, and for those that believe opposite the case is closed.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 26, 2005, 02:48:47 PM
The case was really not closed until the DNA results came in. There is much more chance of human error taking place in the subjective stuff than any error in science, especially by four independant labs, none of whom cared who AA was, but probably would have thought it more fun if she was AN.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 26, 2005, 02:55:16 PM
Quote
The case was really not closed until the DNA results came in. There is much more chance of human error taking place in the subjective stuff than any error in science, especially by four independant labs, none of whom cared who AA was, but probably would have thought it more fun if she was AN.



For those who believe like you do the case is closed, you can quote DNA until the cows come home Annie, but I  stopped listening to that quite a while ago, and besides I don't believe she was AN.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 26, 2005, 03:45:00 PM
Quote


For those who believe like you do the case is closed, you can quote DNA until the cows come home Annie, but I  stopped listening to that quite a while ago, and besides I don't believe she was AN.


I don't want to make you mad, I really don't, but I still would like to know if you don't think she was AN than why would AN's Wicked Uncle Ernie lie, as you so often say he did?  ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 26, 2005, 03:50:14 PM
Quote
Let me repeat the last legal word spoken about the AA case:

 "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."

The court did not decide that AA was not Grand Duchess Anastasia and there was no mention of AA being FS since it was not proven or even a major part of the trial.  Yes, it was a part but then so were the fake photographs of the Winganders.   So was the testimony that a witness had last seen FS with girlfriends in July of 1920 and the girls  were talking about heading to England to work as domestics.  FS even gave him her future address.

Ahhh yes,  another piece of evidence often avoided by some posters.

Don't have the books next to me at this time but I can certainly find this witness' name and  the source which claims he testified in AA's trial.

AGRBear


Bear,

You have missed the point of my post. The Supreme Court did not rule about the identity of Anna Andersen. The Supreme Court ruled about how fairly the trial that did not declare her Anastasia had been conducted. The statement that "we have not decided that the plaintiff is not the Grand Duchess Anastasia" is not some kind of proof that she might have been, but a statement of the parameters of the verdict itself. The lower court had decided that AA had not sufficiently demonstrated herself to be AN, and the Supreme Court let that verdict stand. It is not the same thing as saying that no decision had been reached. The lower court had reached one, and the Supreme Court --- perhaps reluctantly, if we are to accept Kurth --- decided to let it stand. The Anastasians did not regard this decision as a victory.

Regards,

Simon

P.S. Could we please attempt to avoid personalities on this thread? If people wish to go after each other, the proper place is in PMs.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 26, 2005, 04:26:36 PM
Quote

I don't want to make you mad, I really don't, but I still would like to know if you don't think she was AN than why would AN's Wicked Uncle Ernie lie, as you so often say he did?  ???



You aren't making me mad.  I think we have been over this before but here we go, and I don't want you to get mad, as I think Ernie's use of a detective was to protect him and his family & their position.

Personally I believe that he was worried her remarks about the last time she saw "Wicked Uncle Ernie",  "In the war at our home", would endanger his position in Hesse, during those first few years after the war, many ruling families weren't as lucky as the Hesse's with their position and their fortunes.   I think that remark startled him, and he was going to find out who she was, so he hired the detective.  

I think he was worried about the fact the statement about his secret visit or the plans thereof would get out in the public and it could endanger the position of him & his family in Germany, along with their financial position.

So I think Ernie had more at stake to lose than, just proving that this woman was a fraud, and not his niece, it is all much more complicated and less simple than you think it is.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 26, 2005, 04:35:39 PM
Quote

Bear,

You have missed the point of my post. The Supreme Court did not rule about the identity of Anna Andersen. The Supreme Court ruled about how fairly the trial that did not declare her Anastasia had been conducted. The statement that "we have not decided that the plaintiff is not the Grand Duchess Anastasia" is not some kind of proof that she might have been, but a statement of the parameters of the verdict itself. The lower court had decided that AA had not sufficiently demonstrated herself to be AN, and the Supreme Court let that verdict stand. It is not the same thing as saying that no decision had been reached. The lower court had reached one, and the Supreme Court --- perhaps reluctantly, if we are to accept Kurth --- decided to let it stand. The Anastasians did not regard this decision as a victory.

Regards,

Simon

P.S. Could we please attempt to avoid personalities on this thread? If people wish to go after each other, the proper place is in PMs.



But Simon, they didn't say she was FS either? So in truth it wasn't a victory for either side.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 26, 2005, 07:20:06 PM
Quote



Personally I believe that he was worried her remarks about the last time she saw "Wicked Uncle Ernie",  "In the war at our home", would endanger his position in Hesse, during those first few years after the war, many ruling families weren't as lucky as the Hesse's with their position and their fortunes.   I think that remark startled him, and he was going to find out who she was, so he hired the detective.  






But he knew his neice, and he knew this woman wasn't her. So I can't understand how he'd feel threatened by an imposter. But if that's your theory, it is, just as I have mine.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 26, 2005, 08:19:43 PM
Quote


But he knew his neice, and he knew this woman wasn't her. So I can't understand how he'd feel threatened by an imposter. But if that's your theory, it is, just as I have mine.



In reality he didn't know his niece that well.  Hadn't seen her since 1913.   I don't think anyone knew these girls that well.  Not even OA.  Their mother kept them virtually cloistered at Tsarskeo, and I feel that it was impossible for anyone to get to know them intimately.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 26, 2005, 08:20:54 PM
This also menat that she was free to >>change her name legally to "Anatasia Nicolaieva Romanov"<< and >> Judge Pegedarm wanted it undertstood that his ruling constututed no reflection on Anastasia's true identiy:  "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."<<

The judge created an "open end" in his decision which allowed her to make another appeal if she so wished.  And this is said in this part of his statement:

>>technically, [the AA case], was not closed.  The judgment held that Anastasia's claim must be regarded as "no liquet" -- "neither established nor refuted", unsatisfactory to both parties.<<



AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 26, 2005, 08:24:24 PM
Quote


In reality he didn't know his niece that well.  Hadn't seen her since 1913.  


I would think that was good enough to tell her face from someone else's, and the family was so into photography I am sure they sent pics around.


Quote
I don't think anyone knew these girls that well.  Not even OA.  Their mother kept them virtually cloistered at Tsarskeo, and I feel that it was impossible for anyone to get to know them intimately.


I don't have a book to quote right now, but I will have to find them. I have seen many stories of the girls going shopping, and to the ice cream shop, with their Aunt Olga frequently.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 26, 2005, 11:20:06 PM
Quote
This also menat that she was free to >>change her name legally to "Anatasia Nicolaieva Romanov"<< and >> Judge Pegedarm wanted it undertstood that his ruling constututed no reflection on Anastasia's true identiy:  "We have not decided that the plantiff is not Grand Duchess Anastasia, but only that the Hamubrg court made its decision without legal mistakes and without procedural errors."<<

The judge created an "open end" in his decision which allowed her to make another appeal if she so wished.  And this is said in this part of his statement:

>>technically, [the AA case], was not closed.  The judgment held that Anastasia's claim must be regarded as "no liquet" -- "neither established nor refuted", unsatisfactory to both parties.<<



AGRBear



Well, of course you are free to change your name to Anastasia Nicholaevna Romanovna if you want, so that really doesn't prove anything.

Yes, Anna Andersen had the right to appeal the lower court ruling, and yes, the Supreme Court did not decide that she was Franziska Schanzkowska (neither did the lower court). Her identity as Franziska Schanzkowska was not the heart of the case, or even especially germane. The judges did not have to prove AA's actual identity once they had failed to endorse her claim to be Anastasia Nicholaevna.

There was no attempt made for the rest of Andersen's life to officially pursue the matter further. Andersen was depressed by the verdict (Kurth), but by the time it was handed down she was with Jack Manahan, and no longer actively pursuing the claim. Judge Pegedarm was apparently less sure that she wasn't Anastasia than the lower court, but the fact remains that he did not overturn its ruling.

I realize that we have drifted from the initial purpose of this thread, but I do have to say something about the purported visit of the Grand Duke of Hesse to the Imperial Russian Court in 1916. I am sorry, but this has not been proven as a fact. I do know that there was testimony to it during the German trial, but it was not deemed to be an established truth. I know that Crown Princess Cecile stated that it was common knowledge in "her" circle, although I have been unable to locate a single statement by the deposed Kaiser in support of her assertion. But I do have a question. Why would Ernst be so determined to silence AA by labeling her as Schanzkowska with that as a motivation? Common sense would dictate that if Hohenzollerns were talking about it amongst themselves --- and the Kaiser was a notorious chatterbox --- that the information was bound to become public, Anna Andersen or not.


Simon
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 27, 2005, 07:38:23 AM
Quote


No he didn't "turn out to be right".  


Well, yes he did, to 99.9% accuracy. If you don't believe that, it's your own idea, but you can't make a definite statement that he wasn't right, when there is strong evidence he was.

Quote
 Remember at the END of the trials, the court ruled that she hadn't produced enough evidence to prove that she was Anastasia, but it didn't state that she was proven to be  Franziska Schanzkowska either.


I brought this up too, the trial was never about finding out who she was, it was only about proving if she was or was not AN. It's like any trial, they find out if one person is guilty or innocent, they don't go after other suspects. That is another case. It's like this with everything, that's why I posted the analogy about my neighbor.

Quote
As far as Ernie's detective goes, again I will state that it has always been curious to me that in a city the size of Berlin and it's suburbs with all of the missing persons likely to be reported at that time, that he chose a woman of polish extraction, of which very little was known


How do you know they 'chose' her and didn't honestly have the goods to prove it was her? I'd say they did. This needs to be investigated further.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 27, 2005, 07:44:52 AM
Quote
I realize that we have drifted from the initial purpose of this thread, but I do have to say something about the purported visit of the Grand Duke of Hesse to the Imperial Russian Court in 1916. I am sorry, but this has not been proven as a fact. I do know that there was testimony to it during the German trial, but it was not deemed to be an established truth.


This is very true. We have no hard evidence.

Quote
know that Crown Princess Cecile stated that it was common knowledge in "her" circle, although I have been unable to locate a single statement by the deposed Kaiser in support of her assertion.


I know this is only speculation, but really so is the Ernie trip, so I'm going to say it anyway. It has been said that Cecile and her husband went a bit eccentric after losing their 'throne.' I have always discounted Cecile's acceptance of AA as AN since she never really knew AN! She was 15 years older than her, they didn't grow up together. She was married and moved to Germany when AN was only 3. She made visits to Russia, but spent them mostly with her own branch of the family, and when they got together with the Tsar, it was at a party type setting in which children were not allowed.  Then once the war started, no more visits. So I don't think she knew Anastasia enough to be any kind of expert.


Quote
But I do have a question. Why would Ernst be so determined to silence AA by labeling her as Schanzkowska with that as a motivation? Common sense would dictate that if Hohenzollerns were talking about it amongst themselves --- and the Kaiser was a notorious chatterbox --- that the information was bound to become public, Anna Andersen or not.


Simon


Good point. I hope someone will answer this.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 27, 2005, 09:12:50 AM
We have gone over the evidence which talks about Uncle Ernie's trip to Russia.

Do we really need to go over it, again?

I'll go find it.

Uncle Ernie never met with Anna Anderson so what he knew about her was always though others.

Michael G. wrote a very good post on why he thought Ernie didn't want the public to know about his visit to Russia in 1916.  If I recall it was based on his political position in Germany at that time.

The reason this knowledge known by Anna Anderson was so important is because it was a sectret which somehow AA knew and voiced her knowledge of it.   This was just another bit of knowledge which one would assume that GD Anastasia knew and one more block of information that AA knew in her claim to be GD Anastasia.  

I am not sure what all of this has to do with FS being murdered by Grossmann on 13 Aug 1920.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 27, 2005, 09:21:10 AM
Quote
We have gone over the evidence which talks about Uncle Ernie's trip to Russia.

Do we really need to go over it, again?

I'll go find it.


It was not 'evidence', just one guy's word of mouth, no proof.


Quote
Michael G. wrote a very good post on why he thought Ernie didn't want the public to know about his visit to Russia in 1916.  If I recall it was based on his political position in Germany at that time.


You don't accept my posts about what I 'thought' without proof to back it up, so why does his personal viewpoint rate as evidence to you?

Quote
The reason this knowledge known by Anna Anderson was so important is because it was a sectret which somehow AA knew and voiced her knowledge of it.   This was just another bit of knowledge which one would assume that GD Anastasia knew and one more block of information that AA knew in her claim to be GD Anastasia.  [q/uote]

Again, all just speculation and personal opinion.

Quote
I am not sure what all of this has to do with FS being murdered by Grossmann on 13 Aug 1920.

AGRBear


That's true, and I don't think she was murdered.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 27, 2005, 09:28:03 AM
Galitzine testified that he saw Uncle Ernie in the Royal Palace in Russia in 1916 and he was well aware of whom this man was.

Quote
I must conclude that Galitzine's testimony is convincing to you, Bear. I am impressed by your ability to discern the trust level deserved by someone of whom you had never heard a few days ago. If you have accepted the trip took place, then I suggest we move on to something else, because I don't, and see little likelihood of changing my mind failing the introduction of independent evidence that corroborates it. Apparently the Hamburg court felt the same way, since they were unable to issue a definitive ruling upon Andersen's identity.


From what you have given me about Galitzine, you are right, since you haven't given me any evidence to disbelieve him.

My mind isn't set despite what you obviously think.  

Remember, I don't climb into boxes and snap the lid shut.  I'm open to any evidence you can present.

Because the AA case ended up saying that AA could make another appeal has nothing to do with just Galitzine's or just Gilliard telling the truth or not telling the truth.  So, why suggest this occured?  It appears that there was a lot of evidence drawn upon through years and years and years as this case drug on and on in  this court trial.

What about those who supported Galitzine's story?

(1) Do you think the daughter-in-law of Kaiser Wilhelm II lied?  If so, why?  Or do you think the Kaiser lied to her?

The Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse visit to Russia in 1916 is mentioned by several Hohenzollerns.  One was Crown Princess Cecile who said:

"If the view is still held today that such a visit never took place, I can assert from personal knowledge--the source is my late father-in-law,"  [Kaiser Wilhlem II, House of Hohenzollern],"that this visit was already known in circles at the time.  In my opinion [the claimant Anna Anderson] showed by her statement, which I only heard about much later, strong evidence at least of her intimante knowledge of the high politicis and of the most secret dealings of the imperial family."

This was repeated in Summers and Mangold book THE FILE ON THE TSAR  on pps. 218-19.

----
(2)
What about Prince Ferdinand???


>>In 1966 the Kaiser's stepson, Prince Ferdinand of Schoenaich Carolath, also testified that the Kaiser had told him about the visit, and had said that he himself authorized the grand duke's attempt to establish a separate peace with the Russia..." <<

He heard it from the Kaiser which sounds like someone who might know.  Or do you think the Prince Ferdinand or the Kaiser of  lying?  

------
(3)Or Princess of Thurn and Taxis...... ???

>>Princess of Thurn and Taxis...recalled her uncle, the Archduke Joseph of Austria, talking about the mission...." <<

Same thoughts.  She heard it from an Archduke.  Or was she lying?  Or was the Archduke?

----
Bear is all ears and eyes and willing to discover anything new that you can post.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 27, 2005, 09:37:39 AM
This is the post with the sources:

Quote
Back to being ernest.

The Grand Duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse visit to Russia in 1916 is mentioned by several Hohenzollerns.  One was Crown Princess Cecile who said:

"If the view is still held today that such a visit never took place, I can assert from personal knowledge--the source is my late father-in-law,"  [Kaiser Wilhlem II, House of Hohenzollern],"that this visit was already known in circles at the time.  In my opinion [the claimant Anna Anderson] showed by her statement, which I only heard about much later, strong evidence at least of her intimante knowledge of the high politicis and of the most secret dealings of the imperial family."

This was repeated in Summers and Mangold book THE FILE ON THE TSAR  on pps. 218-19.

Supporting this story are:

>>In 1966 the Kaiser's stepson, Prince Ferdinand of Schoenaich Carolath, also testified that the Kaiser had told him about the visit, and had said that he himself authorized the grand duke's attempt to establish a separate peace with the Russia..."

>>...Prince Dmintry Galitzin.  He testified on oath in 1965 that he had actually seen the Grand Duke of Hesse at Tsarskoe Selo palace in 1916...."

>>Princess of Thurn and Taxis...recalled her uncle, the Archduke Joseph of Austria, talking about the mission...."

Since there are a few of you who find Summers and Mangold not to your liking, let me point out in case you missed it,  these people  gave testimony  in court and can be found on record in Germany.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 27, 2005, 09:52:22 AM
I think you can see from my recent post what I think of Cecile as a source, and from many other posts you know if "File on the Tsar" is all you can drag up, the credibility is beyond low.

But I will let Louis take this one, you seem to respect his posts more.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 27, 2005, 09:52:42 AM
Bear,

You are missing the point of my post.

What I said, both above and in the other thread, is that there is no concrete evidence that this trip occured. Prince Galitzine's testimony by itself is insufficient, and he is the only one who presented himself as an eyewitness. It is insufficient for the exact same reasons that you frequently find testimony by people such as Yurovsky insufficient. He offered no corroboration for his testimony other than his word. It is exactly the same thing as saying that Anastasia "must" have died that night. We have no body, so anything that we say is an educated guess.

As I said before, I have no objection to people believing that the trip took place. How could I? But there is a difference between asserting something is an objective fact and something being an objective fact. Get me another first-hand witness who saw Ernst at Tsarskoe and we'll talk. I have been unable to discover a single historian or biographer of any of the parties involved who actually accepts the trip as proven.

And I am sorry, but the idea that an Archduke might have "lied" is unbelievable to you? For heaven's sake, what on earth are you saying Ernst did when he denied the trip? I'll see your Archduke and raise you a Grand Duke.

I don't want this thread to bog down on this point, so I won't raise it again, except to point out that no one has answered my last question in my previous post. If all of the Hohenzollerns were nattering away about the trip, and the Kaiser didn't die until after Ernst, then why was Ernst so worried about an unknown nutjob of questonable identity in a lunatic asylum? He should have been trying to silence the Kaiser, the Crown Princess, the Archduke, the . . . good lord, it would have needed a massacre.

Regards,

Simon

I might also add that Summers and Mangold have the eyewitness accounts of the Imperial women at Perm, so it is barely possible that they may not be the most accurate source of information in this matter.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 27, 2005, 10:23:49 AM
>>...Prince Dmintry Galitzin.  He testified on oath in 1965 that he had actually seen the Grand Duke of Hesse at Tsarskoe Selo palace in 1916...."

What has Galitzin's testimony have to do with Yurovsky's testimony?

Do you have evidence that Galitzin gave false testimony?

You need another eye witness.   I'd have to turn around and ask this question: Was there anyone else alive who could have testified in 1965 who would have been in the palace at this time who could have seen Uncle Ernie in Tsarskoe Selo Palace in 1916?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 27, 2005, 11:17:36 AM
Quote
>>...Prince Dmintry Galitzin.  He testified on oath in 1965 that he had actually seen the Grand Duke of Hesse at Tsarskoe Selo palace in 1916...."

What has Galitzin's testimony have to do with Yurovsky's testimony?


Yurovsky claims that he burned the bodies of two members of the Imperial party. But we have no bodies, so his claim is open to question. Galitzine claims that he saw Ernst Ludwig at Tsarskoe Selo in 1916, but he has no corroboration, he gives his word that it was so --- and the trip was denied by the person he claims to have seen. If Galitzine had one other eyewitness that saw Ernst Ludwig, then he would be corroborated.  Failing that, or empirical evidence such as a photo of Alix and Ernst with the date 1916 and an inscription commemorating his secret visit, Ernst gets to say he wasn't there. Just as people get to say that Anastasia, Marie or Tatiana may have survived the massacre. Remember, what I am saying is that the trip is not a proven fact. I am not ruling it out; I am saying it has not been proven.

Quote
Do you have evidence that Galitzin gave false testimony?


This is an ingenuous question. Do you have evidence that he did not? I will agree that he testified to what he thought he saw, but I do have reservations about a witness who knew the Imperial Family well enough to recognize Ernst at the end of a corridor, but managed to completely avoid all contact with the case until 1965.

Quote
You need another eye witness.   I'd have to turn around and ask this question: Was there anyone else alive who could have testified in 1965 who would have been in the palace at this time who could have seen Uncle Ernie in Tsarskoe Selo Palace in 1916?


No, it doesn't work that way. This is your theory, that Ernst Ludwig made this trip. You have produced no other eyewitness than Galitzine. If that is enough for you, then fine. But if you want to convince people, the burden is upon you, because the trip has not been accepted as a demonstrable, objective fact.

Anymore than we can prove Grossman killed Schanzkowska. See! I did get back to the thread topic!


Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 27, 2005, 11:44:46 AM
I do not need to prove FS was murdered by Grossmann.   The Berlin Police found the proof and then told the family of FS that she had been murdered on 13 Aug. 1920 by Grossmann.

Yes,  FS's body vanished.

And,  yes,  the two bodies  GD Anastasia/Maria and Alexei are missing from the mass grave as well as from the area Yurovsky claimed their remains had ben buried.

No one knows why they are missing.  We know why FS's body is missing because according the the Berlin police she was murdered by Grossmann,  chopped up and in part sold as meat to the starving Berliners.  And,  that is how Grossmann made his living through the war days.

I suppose we can compare Grossmann with Yurovsky.  Both were murderers of innocent people.

I cannot compare Yurovsky's testimony with Galitzin's.  Two different men.  Two different events.   There was never a court trial placing Yurovsky on the stand for his deeds and therefore no cross examination or evidence presented.  Galitzin was not accused of any foul deeds.  He was merely testifing to the fact that he saw someone he knew  in 1916.  BIG difference.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 27, 2005, 01:05:54 PM
Quote

Well, yes he did, to 99.9% accuracy. If you don't believe that, it's your own idea, but you can't make a definite statement that he wasn't right, when there is strong evidence he was.  


No he wasn't right to a 99.6 % accuracy, the DNA has the 99.6% accuracy Annie, not Ernie's detective.  One thing that exasperates me beyond belief is your ability to switch facts, and give him credit for something he had nothing to do with, this is NOT a personal attack it is just frustration.   Ernie and his detective were 70 years PRIOR to DNA.

Quote
I brought this up too, the trial was never about finding out who she was, it was only about proving if she was or was not AN. It's like any trial, they find out if one person is guilty or innocent, they don't go after other suspects. That is another case. It's like this with everything, that's why I posted the analogy about my neighbor.  


but the analogies are not facts relevant to this case.


Quote
How do you know they 'chose' her and didn't honestly have the goods to prove it was her? I'd say they did. This needs to be investigated further.


So you think that a detective didn't choose between several different possibilities, that he knew from the beginning it was FS that he was looking for, that he knew it was her from the beginning.  Annie he would have to be omniscient.  

Or there was some sort of process of elimination....I would like to know who his other choices were.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 27, 2005, 01:13:04 PM
Quote
Bear,

You are missing the point of my post.

What I said, both above and in the other thread, is that there is no concrete evidence that this trip occured. Prince Galitzine's testimony by itself is insufficient, and he is the only one who presented himself as an eyewitness. It is insufficient for the exact same reasons that you frequently find testimony by people such as Yurovsky insufficient. He offered no corroboration for his testimony other than his word. It is exactly the same thing as saying that Anastasia "must" have died that night. We have no body, so anything that we say is an educated guess.

As I said before, I have no objection to people believing that the trip took place. How could I? But there is a difference between asserting something is an objective fact and something being an objective fact. Get me another first-hand witness who saw Ernst at Tsarskoe and we'll talk. I have been unable to discover a single historian or biographer of any of the parties involved who actually accepts the trip as proven.

And I am sorry, but the idea that an Archduke might have "lied" is unbelievable to you? For heaven's sake, what on earth are you saying Ernst did when he denied the trip? I'll see your Archduke and raise you a Grand Duke.

I don't want this thread to bog down on this point, so I won't raise it again, except to point out that no one has answered my last question in my previous post. If all of the Hohenzollerns were nattering away about the trip, and the Kaiser didn't die until after Ernst, then why was Ernst so worried about an unknown nutjob of questonable identity in a lunatic asylum? He should have been trying to silence the Kaiser, the Crown Princess, the Archduke, the . . . good lord, it would have needed a massacre.

Regards,

Simon

I might also add that Summers and Mangold have the eyewitness accounts of the Imperial women at Perm, so it is barely possible that they may not be the most accurate source of information in this matter.


Simon,

I believe what Bear is saying is that there are enough sources close to the issue, such as Viktoria Luise, Crown Princess Cecilie,  Galitizine, to ignore those of you who seem to think that this sort of thing was above Ernie.   Who else would they have sent?  The Empress's brother was the perfect choice.

I think there is a good probablilty that this trip did happen.  I believe the journals of Ernie showed some evidence towards this, but no proof positive.  

I think it is interesting that Ernie or AF are considered beyond reproach by some, and that the Crown Princess of Prussia  (descended from a Russian GD) and the Kaiser's daughter are considered non believeable sources.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 27, 2005, 03:04:41 PM
Quote
I do not need to prove FS was murdered by Grossmann.   The Berlin Police found the proof and then told the family of FS that she had been murdered on 13 Aug. 1920 by Grossmann.

Yes,  FS's body vanished.

And,  yes,  the two bodies  GD Anastasia/Maria and Alexei are missing from the mass grave as well as from the area Yurovsky claimed their remains had ben buried.

No one knows why they are missing.  We know why FS's body is missing because according the the Berlin police she was murdered by Grossmann,  chopped up and in part sold as meat to the starving Berliners.  And,  that is how Grossmann made his living through the war days.

I suppose we can compare Grossmann with Yurovsky.  Both were murderers of innocent people.
 
I cannot compare Yurovsky's testimony with Galitzin's.  Two different men.  Two different events.   There was never a court trial placing Yurovsky on the stand for his deeds and therefore no cross examination or evidence presented.  Galitzin was not accused of any foul deeds.  He was merely testifing to the fact that he saw someone he knew  in 1916.  BIG difference.

AGRBear


Bear,

The Berlin police made an educated guess based upon their interpretation of the name Grossmann had written out more or less phonetically. They did not "prove" Schanzkowska had been murdered. If you think that it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, why are we on this thread at all?

I am still wondering why Ernie would have felt compelled to go after someone like Anna Andersen because of her knowledge of the trip, when more believable sources were talking about it, if indeed they were. I repeat, I have been unable to locate a single direct quote from the ex-Kaiser that supports this story. Viktoria Luise, Cecilie and the others are reporting hearsay, which may in fact be the reason it was not used to corroborate Galitzine's testimony in such a way that the court decided that the trip had in fact happened.

My post does not say that it didn't happen. I have never said that. I have said that it hasn't been proven. Do try and grasp the difference.

Regards,

Simon


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 27, 2005, 03:16:24 PM
Quote

Simon,

I believe what Bear is saying is that there are enough sources close to the issue, such as Viktoria Luise, Crown Princess Cecilie,  Galitizine, to ignore those of you who seem to think that this sort of thing was above Ernie.   Who else would they have sent?  The Empress's brother was the perfect choice.

I think there is a good probablilty that this trip did happen.  I believe the journals of Ernie showed some evidence towards this, but no proof positive.  

I think it is interesting that Ernie or AF are considered beyond reproach by some, and that the Crown Princess of Prussia  (descended from a Russian GD) and the Kaiser's daughter are considered non believeable sources.



MichaelG,

When Cecile gave witness that she recognized Anna Andersen as Anastasia, Louis Ferdinand and Kyra, her son and daughter-in-law, appended a note that they found no resemblance at all. My point is not that Cecile lied --- of course she recognized Andersen if she said she did --- but that she might have been incorrect.

I have no idea what Ernst Ludwig was capable of, and I am not supporting him for any particular reason. Indeed, I am not supporting him at all. But there is no hard empirical evidence of this trip other than the identification by Galitzine 40 years after it took place. According to Kurth, when it was suggested to him on the witness stand that he might have been mistaken in the identification, he replied that if he wasn't going to be believed, he should not have been called. Which is fine as far as a display of hauteur goes, but where would we be if Wingender had issued the same response? Or Gertrude Schanzkowska? If things are going to be accepted as objective facts, than I want to see a little empirical evidence brought forth.

As I said in my response to Bear, this trip may have happened. The operative word is "may".

I consider no one "beyond reproach", including Ernst, and there is ample evidence for that in my posts. I am interested in the truth of the situation, pure and simple.

Back to the thread. We are prevented from discussing the possibility that the DNA evidence was contaminated. So assuming Occam's Razor --- the simplest solution is probably the correct one --- don't you think it more likely that a police error was made in understanding the Polish name in Grossmann's writing? It seems to me that the entire argument that he killed Franziska is hanging on this, or have I missed some other piece of evidence presented on the thread?

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: etonexile on September 27, 2005, 07:09:31 PM
My theory of space alien intervention in all this AA=AN=FS business has been given little respect....so I must hammer away with DNA...AA was not AN and most likely was FS...
How can folk keep embarrassing themselves in the DNA denial....?


How many here believe in "Intelligent Design" as well....?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 27, 2005, 07:20:28 PM
Quote


MichaelG,

When Cecile gave witness that she recognized Anna Andersen as Anastasia, Louis Ferdinand and Kyra, her son and daughter-in-law, appended a note that they found no resemblance at all. My point is not that Cecile lied --- of course she recognized Andersen if she said she did --- but that she might have been incorrect.

I have no idea what Ernst Ludwig was capable of, and I am not supporting him for any particular reason. Indeed, I am not supporting him at all. But there is no hard empirical evidence of this trip other than the identification by Galitzine 40 years after it took place. According to Kurth, when it was suggested to him on the witness stand that he might have been mistaken in the identification, he replied that if he wasn't going to be believed, he should not have been called. Which is fine as far as a display of hauteur goes, but where would we be if Wingender had issued the same response? Or Gertrude Schanzkowska? If things are going to be accepted as objective facts, than I want to see a little empirical evidence brought forth.

As I said in my response to Bear, this trip may have happened. The operative word is "may".

I consider no one "beyond reproach", including Ernst, and there is ample evidence for that in my posts. I am interested in the truth of the situation, pure and simple.

Back to the thread. We are prevented from discussing the possibility that the DNA evidence was contaminated. So assuming Occam's Razor --- the simplest solution is probably the correct one --- don't you think it more likely that a police error was made in understanding the Polish name in Grossmann's writing? It seems to me that the entire argument that he killed Franziska is hanging on this, or have I missed some other piece of evidence presented on the thread?

Regards,

Simon



Simon,

I don't know who made an error the police or the detective hired by Ernst Ludwig.

While we keep getting side tracked on these little trips, I believe there is also some evidence in the Grand Duke's journals & the way they were written, I can't remember just what it was, but Penny did discuss this with us at one point.

I think Ernie was worried about his position, and the damage this admission COULD DO to his position in Hesse, and his family fortune & position within the former Grand Duchy.  Whether she was a nutjob or not, the words "In the war at our house", rocked Ernie enough to hire a private detective, the last thing he needed was for this to be broadcast, that he made a trip to the enemy in the last war, while everyone else's sons, brothers, husbands, and father, were on the front fighting and dying.    

Yes and when on the stand we also have Gilliard & Olga A.'s testimony being torn apart and leaving us with answers of hauteur instead of a look at the truth.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: etonexile on September 27, 2005, 07:27:49 PM
At this late date...I should most heartily ask any members of the Hesse family to step forward and say "Yes...Ernst Ludwig made a bold move to end the blood bath of WWI in any way...."....the man is a  hero in my eyes... if it's true.....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 27, 2005, 08:01:54 PM
Quote

No he wasn't right to a 99.6 % accuracy, the DNA has the 99.6% accuracy Annie, not Ernie's detective.  One thing that exasperates me beyond belief is your ability to switch facts, and give him credit for something he had nothing to do with, this is NOT a personal attack it is just frustration.   Ernie and his detective were 70 years PRIOR to DNA.




Yes, but the detective turned out to be proven right by the DNA, which means he was proven right.

There is one thing I think we can all agree on, and that is we need to find out more about this detective's investigation and why and how he came to his conclusion.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 27, 2005, 08:17:57 PM
Quote

Yes, but the detective turned out to be proven right by the DNA, which means he was proven right.

There is one thing I think we can all agree on, and that is we need to find out more about this detective's investigation and why and how he came to his conclusion.


Annie,

The detective & the DNA are two different issues 70 years apart, and one shouldn't be used as a case to bolster the theory of the other.  

However I agree that we need to find more out about the investigation and the detective & how he came to the conlusion he did.  

Also I would be less inclined to reasonable doubt in my own case if it was 100%, and not 99.6, and until the technology/science improves or advances in that respect, I reserve my right to be skeptical of exactly who she is.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 27, 2005, 09:18:38 PM
Quote


Simon,

I don't know who made an error the police or the detective hired by Ernst Ludwig.

While we keep getting side tracked on these little trips, I believe there is also some evidence in the Grand Duke's journals & the way they were written, I can't remember just what it was, but Penny did discuss this with us at one point.

I think Ernie was worried about his position, and the damage this admission COULD DO to his position in Hesse, and his family fortune & position within the former Grand Duchy.  Whether she was a nutjob or not, the words "In the war at our house", rocked Ernie enough to hire a private detective, the last thing he needed was for this to be broadcast, that he made a trip to the enemy in the last war, while everyone else's sons, brothers, husbands, and father, were on the front fighting and dying.    

Yes and when on the stand we also have Gilliard & Olga A.'s testimony being torn apart and leaving us with answers of hauteur instead of a look at the truth.



Michael,

Perhaps they were both in error? I am not committed to the idea that AA = FS, although I think the DNA evidence placing Andersen in the Schanzkowska family is pretty strong evidence.

Olga Alexandrovna did not testify during the trials, so she was not torn apart on the stand, and the word hauteur can scarcely be applied to her in any case. Gilliard was grilled, and deservedly suffered some mortification on the stand. Since he wasn't noble, I don't know what you'd call his attitude. Simple arrogance, I suppose. Galitzine was an aristocrat, which is why I used the word I did. He simply refused to acknowledge on cross-examination that he might have been mistaken about the identification. The state lawyers received the answer I quoted above, and I do think they let him off easily, if only on the strength of Kurth's description.

I hate to sound plaintive about this, but why didn't Ernst go after the Hohenzollerns who were supposedly talking about this?

And Etonexile does have a point. At this juncture in history, the Hesse-Darmstadts would be covered in reflected glory if it could be demonstrated that they tried to stop the slaughter. So if the evidence is in the ducal archives, why haven't they brought it out?

I agree that Ernst, had he made the trip, might have been horrified by the revelation of Fraulein Unbekannt. What I don't understand is why no one seems to realize he would have been just as horrified if he hadn't made the trip.

As far as whether Franziska met her fate at the hands of a serial killer, aren't we in the same position as the missing body of a Grand Duchess creates? There is no forensic evidence that Franziska was murdered, only the probability suggested by the Berlin police.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 27, 2005, 09:53:30 PM
Quote


Michael,

Perhaps they were both in error? I am not committed to the idea that AA = FS, although I think the DNA evidence placing Andersen in the Schanzkowska family is pretty strong evidence.

Olga Alexandrovna did not testify during the trials, so she was not torn apart on the stand, and the word hauteur can scarcely be applied to her in any case. Gilliard was grilled, and deservedly suffered some mortification on the stand. Since he wasn't noble, I don't know what you'd call his attitude. Simple arrogance, I suppose. Galitzine was an aristocrat, which is why I used the word I did. He simply refused to acknowledge on cross-examination that he might have been mistaken about the identification. The state lawyers received the answer I quoted above, and I do think they let him off easily, if only on the strength of Kurth's description.

I hate to sound plaintive about this, but why didn't Ernst go after the Hohenzollerns who were supposedly talking about this?

And Etonexile does have a point. At this juncture in history, the Hesse-Darmstadts would be covered in reflected glory if it could be demonstrated that they tried to stop the slaughter. So if the evidence is in the ducal archives, why haven't they brought it out?

I agree that Ernst, had he made the trip, might have been horrified by the revelation of Fraulein Unbekannt. What I don't understand is why no one seems to realize he would have been just as horrified if he hadn't made the trip.

As far as whether Franziska met her fate at the hands of a serial killer, aren't we in the same position as the missing body of a Grand Duchess creates? There is no forensic evidence that Franziska was murdered, only the probability suggested by the Berlin police.

Regards,

Simon



Simon,

Olga Alexandrovna DID testify during the trial, the judge and the court went to her, and this has been posted by Penny, and during this testimony she especially when testiying in regards to her early statements on this case, found her self being torn apart.  She showed an attitude of hauteur in the end IMO.

Reflected glory for the Hesse's?? Don't think so.  What do you think kept Germany from erupting into what happened in Russia?  You all seem to forget that after WW I, and the fall of the three major dynasties, and all the minor royalty.  The peace mission was not to end the war as EE seems to want to have the Hesse's basking in reflected glory from, but Russia's WITHDRAWL from the war, and the allied cause.  

Ernst may not have gone after the Hohenzollern out of respect, Willy was after all his first cousin, and Emperor.
If Ernst was trying to keep the fact of the meeting hushed, then going after them or saying they were lying would only increase the attention it would have been getting.

I agree with the fact that  FU making these statements could cause Ernst to react from either side of the coin, whether he did or did not make the trip.  

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 27, 2005, 10:14:45 PM
Michael,

You are correct. Olga was examined at the German consulate in Toronto. (Kurth, p. 308.). Kurth describes her answers as "curt and evasive", but gives no examples. Vorres says that as she left the interview she was assaulted by a woman crying "Aunt Olga! Dear Aunt Olga!", so perhaps that put her in a bad mood. In any event, hauteur is out of character for her. But I would dearly like to see a transcript of that meeting. The examination went on for several hours, and it does not seem to have shaken Olga in her belief that Anna Andersen was not Anastasia. It would be extremely interesting to learn whether they asked her about Ernst's purported trip.

Biographies of Wilhelm have stated that the relationship between Ernst and the Kaiser was cold, if not outright hostile. I am not sure that either would have been interested in sparing the other's feelings out of respect.

And I am not sure of the meaning in your second paragraph. How exactly is  the outcome of WWI affected by the trip so that what happened in Russia didn't happen in Germany? I truly did not understand this part of your post.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 28, 2005, 01:17:22 AM
A couple of points:

1. There are unfortunately no Hesse Darmstadts alive today. The last members of that family were Prince Ludwig and his wife Margaret, who died in 1968 and 1997 respectively. There are female line descendants (such as Prince Philip), but no HDs to brag about the mythical trip to Tsarskoe Selo.

2. Such a trip would have been considered treason at that time.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 28, 2005, 01:34:45 AM
Since both of these Hesse-Darmstadts died after Galitzine's testimony, to say nothing of the Hohenzollerns, I am curious to know if they ever spoke of the supposed trip? I am assuming they did not, or historians would have included their remarks.

And your note about the trip being treasonable is well taken. It would have been treason had it happened, and an imputation of treason if it did not --- not something about which Ernst could be reasonably expected to be pleased.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 28, 2005, 06:25:55 AM
Even IF this alleged trip were true, which I do doubt, it still doesn't mean AA was AN. Someone like Gleb Botkin could have told her.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 28, 2005, 08:19:39 AM
Annie,

She made the allegation before she met Gleb Botkin.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 28, 2005, 08:56:09 AM
Quote
Annie,

She made the allegation before she met Gleb Botkin.

Regards,

Simon


We know when they first met in person, not when they first corresponded. There could have been letters or phone calls we don't know about. Or it could have been someone else. Either way, she wasn't AN and I doubt the trip is true.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 28, 2005, 08:57:39 AM
Quote
A couple of points:

1. There are unfortunately no Hesse Darmstadts alive today. The last members of that family were Prince Ludwig and his wife Margaret, who died in 1968 and 1997 respectively. There are female line descendants (such as Prince Philip), but no HDs to brag about the mythical trip to Tsarskoe Selo.

2. Such a trip would have been considered treason at that time.


But that again does not mean that a trip was not made under circumstances that were top secret, then I doubt anyone would brag about it.  The trip IMO would have been considered treason more AFTER the war than during since it was made with the complicity of Wilhelm,
supposedly if such a trip was made.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 28, 2005, 09:00:56 AM
Quote

We know when they first met in person, not when they first corresponded. There could have been letters or phone calls we don't know about. Or it could have been someone else. Either way, she wasn't AN and I doubt the trip is true.


Annie,

She made the allegation while she was in Dalldorf which
was 5 years before she met Gleb, I don't believe there is any record of correspondence, and where would Gleb get such information about a high level trip such as this?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 28, 2005, 10:05:46 AM
Dear Annie,

Same objection to your statement that I have to the description of the trip as an objective fact. You cannot invent a supposed correspondence between Gleb and Anna Andersen simply because it suits the interpretation you wish to put upon the facts. By the same token, a failure to mention the trip within the Hesse Darmstadt family is not an endorsement of its secret or treasonous nature. It may also mean the trip did not take place.

Regards,

Simon
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 28, 2005, 10:15:05 AM
Quote
Dear Annie,

Same objection to your statement that I have to the description of the trip as an objective fact. You cannot invent a supposed correspondence between Gleb and Anna Andersen simply because it suits the interpretation you wish to put upon the facts.

Simon


It was pure speculation, I never stated it as fact.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on September 28, 2005, 10:19:43 AM
No problem, just explaining why it doesn't work for me.

Si
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 28, 2005, 11:29:00 AM
So,  do most of us agree that we need to know more about the Berlin police investigation into the disapearance and murder of FS from 9 March 1920 to the time the police went to the FS family and told them that FS was murdered on 13 Aug 1920?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on September 28, 2005, 12:14:18 PM
Quote
So,  do most of us agree that we need to know more about the Berlin police investigation into the disapearance and murder of FS from 9 March 1920 to the time the police went to the FS family and told them that FS was murdered on 13 Aug 1920?

AGRBear


Yes! And also more about how the detective hired by Ernie reached his conclusions that AA was FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 28, 2005, 03:17:02 PM
Quote
So,  do most of us agree that we need to know more about the Berlin police investigation into the disapearance and murder of FS from 9 March 1920 to the time the police went to the FS family and told them that FS was murdered on 13 Aug 1920?

AGRBear



Of course we do Bear, one of the many mysteries connected with this case.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Denise on September 28, 2005, 05:43:59 PM
Quote
So,  do most of us agree that we need to know more about the Berlin police investigation into the disapearance and murder of FS from 9 March 1920 to the time the police went to the FS family and told them that FS was murdered on 13 Aug 1920?

AGRBear


Most definitely!!  I haven't been posting lately (incredibly busy) but have been reading this thread with interest.  I would say that we know to know more about the Grossman investigation, and if it was CERTAIn that FS was his victim (IE, evidence outside of a name in a diary).  If FS death by serial killer was a foregone conclusion, why then did Ernie's detective feel he could be successful pinning AA's identity to FS?

Anyway, just more questions, as usual.  I have been gone for a while, but good to see some thinfs never change.

Denise
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Mgmstl on September 28, 2005, 09:24:07 PM
Quote
I do not need to prove FS was murdered by Grossmann.   The Berlin Police found the proof and then told the family of FS that she had been murdered on 13 Aug. 1920 by Grossmann.

Yes,  FS's body vanished.

And,  yes,  the two bodies  GD Anastasia/Maria and Alexei are missing from the mass grave as well as from the area Yurovsky claimed their remains had ben buried.

No one knows why they are missing.  We know why FS's body is missing because according the the Berlin police she was murdered by Grossmann,  chopped up and in part sold as meat to the starving Berliners.  And,  that is how Grossmann made his living through the war days.

I suppose we can compare Grossmann with Yurovsky.  Both were murderers of innocent people.
 
I cannot compare Yurovsky's testimony with Galitzin's.  Two different men.  Two different events.   There was never a court trial placing Yurovsky on the stand for his deeds and therefore no cross examination or evidence presented.  Galitzin was not accused of any foul deeds.  He was merely testifing to the fact that he saw someone he knew  in 1916.  BIG difference.

AGRBear



Besides Yurovsky was using the letters to hide the fact that two of the bodies were missing, had he not played CYA, he might have found himself before a firing squad as did so many others.

As far as Galitizine goes, what reason would he have to lie?   I am not saying that the trip DID without a doubt take place, I am saying that if it did take place then the Prince would have been in a good place to witness it, and who better to send than Ernst.

I think that this is something again that needs to be looked at.  After all these are all pieces of our mystery.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on September 30, 2005, 11:49:48 AM
Good to hear from you again, Denise.

Hope all is well.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on October 15, 2005, 11:18:27 PM
Has anyone every read anywhere  the date of the explosion in the factory?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on October 24, 2005, 04:42:07 PM
Remember: Most people believe that Gertrud, nee Schanzkowska, Ellrich is the full sister of Franziska Schanzkowka [FS], however, we do not have a birth or death certificate which tells us that Gertrud and FS had the same mother or father, Anton Schanzkowska.  Gertrude was raised as a sibling in FS's father's home.
 
CHART:    
     
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek  
 Issue:  [unknown]  
   
     
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna __NN__ b. 1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Mother remarried to ___NN___]    
     Issue:    
    2. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895  
    3. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896  
     *  Gertrude b. poss. 1898  
    4.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899  
    5.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901  
    6.  Felix S. b. 17 February 1903  
    7. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905  
   
 
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3) to  ___NN3___    
 Issue:    
   1. [unknown]    
  ------
NOTES  
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown and place in families above is at this time is not known, however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 1898 which would place her fourth between FS and Michael.
-------
 
Gertrud, nee Schanzkowska,  Ellrick children were:  
 
1. [Another] Gertrud  Ellrick m. Maucher  
     +Carl Maucher's mother.  
 
2. Hedwig Ellrick m. Lander  
      
 
3. +Margarete  Ellrick
     Who lived with Carl Maucher  
   
4. Magdalene Ellrick m. Weber  
     Had a son called Herbert Weber  
 
Notes:
+ tested DNA / mtDNA

*
Quote
... [ in part]....
I personally reviewed copies of all the marriage, birth and baptismal records known to exist in May 2000, plus information taken from Pomerm after removal from their original Parishes (Catholic). At that time, there were no time line records for Gertrude Ellerick. which had been the goad for my investigation carried out in Europe.

When time permits, I will see what my notes show.

However, since that date many records have been consolidated from the provinces in Poland into a national archive, and it is possible that Records showing the time line place of Gertrude can now be established.

That said, if one checks also, in those periods (time-line), the "descent" of the father's status and what appeared to be a reputation for philandery, a plausible question arises as to whether he was required to "take in" a child from an outside affair. It is quite far-fetched to consider, but did happen in those communities.

......


In one of Penny Wilson's post she confirmed the fact that Gertrude's birth and her baptismal certificates have not been found in the same area that FS and the siblings by Anton S.'s second wife were found.

I was not able to find Gertrude's birth and baptismal certificates.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on October 24, 2005, 05:00:23 PM
Quote
Remember: Most people believe that Gertrud, nee Schanzkowska, Ellrich is the full sister of Franziska Schanzkowka [FS], however, we do not have a birth or death certificate which tells us that Gertrud and FS had the same mother or father, Anton Schanzkowska.  Gertrude was raised as a sibling in FS's father's home.
 
CHART:    
     
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (1) to 1890 to Josefina Peek  
 Issue:  [unknown]  
   
     
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (2) 1894  to  Marianna __NN__ b. 1866.   Marriage ended in divorce abt 1910/1912.  Both remarried.  [Mother remarried to ___NN___]    
     Issue:    
    2. Martin Christian S. b. 16 November 1895  
    3. Franziska S.  b. 16 December 1896 [date from Penny]  also listed in some books as  22 December 1896, baptized 24 December 1896  
     *  Gertrude b. poss. 1898  
    4.  Michael S.  b. 16 December 1899  
    5.  Valerian S.  (AKA Walther) b. 25 April 1901  
    6.  Felix S. b. 17 February 1903  
    7. Juliane Marianna S. (AKA Maria Juliana) b. 30 April 1905  
   
 
Anton Schanzkowsky m. (3) to  ___NN3___    
 Issue:    
   1. [unknown]    
  ------
NOTES  
*Gertrude S.'s official birthdate unknown and place in families above is at this time is not known, however, Gertrude did tell people her birthdate was 1898 which would place her fourth between FS and Michael.
-------
 
Gertrud, nee Schanzkowska,  Ellrick children were:  
 
1. [Another] Gertrud  Ellrick m. Maucher  
     +Carl Maucher's mother.  
 
2. Hedwig Ellrick m. Lander  
      
 
3. +Margarete  Ellrick
     Who lived with Carl Maucher  
   
4. Magdalene Ellrick m. Weber  
     Had a son called Herbert Weber  
 
Notes:
+ tested DNA / mtDNA

*
Quote
... [ in part]....
I personally reviewed copies of all the marriage, birth and baptismal records known to exist in May 2000, plus information taken from Pomerm after removal from their original Parishes (Catholic). At that time, there were no time line records for Gertrude Ellerick. which had been the goad for my investigation carried out in Europe.

When time permits, I will see what my notes show.

However, since that date many records have been consolidated from the provinces in Poland into a national archive, and it is possible that Records showing the time line place of Gertrude can now be established.

That said, if one checks also, in those periods (time-line), the "descent" of the father's status and what appeared to be a reputation for philandery, a plausible question arises as to whether he was required to "take in" a child from an outside affair. It is quite far-fetched to consider, but did happen in those communities.

......



In one of Penny Wilson's post she confirmed the fact that Gertrude's birth and her baptismal certificates have not been found in the same area that FS and the siblings by Anton S.'s second wife were found.

I was not able to find Gertrude's birth and baptismal certificates.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on November 01, 2005, 08:03:31 PM
After wondering a great deal about this matter I decided to post a thought that was running around my head for days...

We are speaking so much about Schanzkowska's family, but we never spoke about their neighbors. What about them? The people who lives in FS native village must have know her...Why judges doesn't call them to testify? They must have known FS in a glance. Since her siblings were reluctant to recognize AA as FS , neighbors must have been able to do it...Isn't it? They must have known her well. The only "not-relative-recognition" came from the Wingender sisters, and they were dismissed by the judges at  German trials. Even today that DNA show off that AA was FS, the only testimony we have is from a distant Franziska's niece, that never saw her "aunty" when she was alive.

We have some nice testimonies of FS worker companions , but no one recognized AA as FS(nor were summoned to do so by the tribunal by the way) .

The only people who goes near her to recognize AA as Fs were the Wingenders and the Schanzkowsky's siblings. Nobody else did know FS in the whole earth? This is suspicious to me. And we must add that the AA photos were send all around Germany to find who she was when she was at the hospital and at Dalldorf, and that later, she became very popular and a face easy to recognize, when her "Anastasia's Story" became widely known. No one in her village did rtecognize her face? OK...Many of them could not know how to read, but people enjoyed purchasing magazines to "see" photos of famous people. And well...Who may doubt that AA was "a famous woman" in the early 20's?

Just wondering.

RealAnastasia. ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: anna11 on December 26, 2005, 04:57:47 AM
Sorry if there is already a thread about this but are there any pictures of Franziska Schanzkowska? i would really like to see some photos of her but I have never been able to find any.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Forum Admin on December 26, 2005, 08:41:18 AM
LORD how lazy!! just go thru this entire section and there are far too many....
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 26, 2005, 08:55:59 AM
Only known unretouched photo of FS (right)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/AAFS2.jpg)

The one on the left is AA, the pics were stuck together, so don't anyone accuse me of trying to make comparisons (though I can't imagine why else anyone would want to see a pic of her)

Here is the 'retouched' version (center) I'm sure it was only done because the original is so pale and faded you can't see the features distinctly.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafs.jpg)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 26, 2005, 12:13:57 PM
anna11,

There are a number of threads which do have many photographs of Anna Anderson.

There is only one known photo which is known to be Franziska Schanzkowska before Feb. 1920 .

Unfortunately, the one photographs is retouched and there are no known photographs in the public eye which has not been retouched.

Even though Annie and others may continue to show the photograph above as a photo of as one NOT having been touched,  this is in error.

Quote
Greg King's post #132:
 ...[in part]....
>> 
  
As to the FS photo: All I can say is that there is no known unretouched version of it-the one posted here has been examined by a number of experts over the years and been shown to have been heavily drawn over, the hairline changed, the lips altered, etc., presumably to heighten the appearance to AA.  If we had an unretouched photo of FS it would be useful, but we don't.  
  
Greg King<<  


AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 26, 2005, 02:26:11 PM
Quote
anna11,



Unfortunately, the one photographs is retouched and there are no known photographs in the public eye which has not been retouched.

Even though Annie and others may continue to show the photograph above as a photo of as one NOT having been touched,  this is in error.


AGRBear



No, I am NOT in error, bear. The first pic I posted is NOT RETOUCHED!!!!! Please someone show me where it would be, it's all dull and faded. The retouched one is the lower one I posted. Bear clings to one person's long ago comment that there are no unretouched photos of her, but this was before the one I posted first was known here.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 26, 2005, 05:49:33 PM
Quote

The retouched one is the lower one I posted.


In fact, technically it's not even "retouched", but more like "enhanced". The features were not changed, they were just made clearer in order to really see what FS looked like, that's all... Nothing sinister there.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: anna11 on December 26, 2005, 09:59:46 PM
Thankyou. I wasnt looking for Photos of Anna Anderson just so you know. If I was I just would have gone to the thread  'Pictures of Anna Anderson'(Duh)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 27, 2005, 11:10:48 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSManSumBK1.jpg)

Both of you, Annie and Helen,  continue to be in  error.

Quote
Greg King's post #132:
 ...[in part]....
>> 
  
As to the FS photo: All I can say is that there is no known unretouched version of it-the one posted here has been examined by a number of experts over the years and been shown to have been heavily drawn over, the hairline changed, the lips altered, etc., presumably to heighten the appearance to AA.  If we had an unretouched photo of FS it would be useful, but we don't.  
  
Greg King<<  


As to Greg's statement being old [out of date],  I believe his statement still stands as accurate since he certainly saw Annie's two white dot photograph and probably others before anyone brought any copies of it here to this forum.

There are no unretouched photographs of FS known to the public a this time.

The one Annie is showing has two white dotes in the hair.  This is one of the earlier copies because the photographer making the copy may have had lent on his slide which created the two white does, therefore, this one can be traced back to this particular copy.  Some think the lint may not have been lent at all but smudges of something used when a copy was retouched before being copied again...

The German courts had an expert who studied all of these photographs and he gave his report to the judges upon months of research during AA's trial.

I am not sure what Annie means when she said that she found her photograph.

The one above I found in the FILE ON THE TSAR by Summers and Mangold which was published in 1976.  This one can be traced  back to the photographer who copied it because his has the two white dotes in FS's hair.  

The Wengenders produced several other photographs of FS because it was suppose to have shown some dress.... during the German court trial of AA.  But these photographs were proven by the court's experts to have been tampered --everything from buttons to who knows what was drawn into those photographs....

Helen,  there is no need to call my remarks as being sinister.  Facts are facts.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 27, 2005, 12:03:25 PM
Considering that Greg King misidentified a prominent picture of Alexandra's sister Elisabeth as Alexandra herself in his biography of the latter, I am not so sure that he can be viewed as a true authority on photos, FS's or anyone else's...

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 27, 2005, 12:21:05 PM
Quote
Considering that Greg King misidentified a prominent picture of Alexandra's sister Elisabeth as Alexandra herself in his biography of the latter, I am not so sure that he can be viewed as a true authority on photos, FS's or anyone else's...



I am not aware of this misidentification.

If this occured in a book,  it may have been an error by the editor / staff and wasn't caught before the book was in print.

Why do you assume he was the one who made the error?  Did you ask him?  
Did you ask anyone before making this accusation?

You do realize that this is a serious and very public accusation toward Greg King's character and toward the facts he presented in anything he's written or was co-author?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 27, 2005, 12:27:32 PM
Quote

Did you ask anyone before making this accusation public?

AGRBear


AGR - you little hypocritical instigator. You know very well that I did not make any accusations - I simply stated a fact. And when may I ask do you actually check your facts when you make your very public accusations against various parties (and yours are usually true accusations)?

Where are the sources for Greg King's statements? Who are these so called "experts" who "examined" this photo?  Well, my experts have examined this photo and said that it was not retouched. So prove me wrong.




Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 27, 2005, 06:05:44 PM
Hi Helen_A,

Question ?

If we are referring to experts, and posting this as a fact to the board, do we give the name of the "experts" ?

Are facts to be backed up with actual names of experts, especially when in question of such major issues as these ?

If so, who are the "experts" please, and are they known, varifiable experts known in the field in and to do with photography, etc. of the present photos of FS ?

Where was the examination, etc. conducted please for the photo you offered them ? Can you tell us exactly what kind of an examination they conducted to barify any, and all final information ? I think it would be important for all of us to understand what kind of tests are offered and given to prove whether it is real or a fraud.

Thanks for any and all information available regarding this subject matter of this photo.

Tatiana
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 27, 2005, 07:25:39 PM
Helen is correct, bear.

I seem to remember once Penny claimed that the two dots meant it was a COPY, and even if this is so, that is not the same thing as retouched. A copy is just a copy of a regular picture the way it is, like we have made of our own pictures. They are not changed.

If Anna11 wanted pictures of AA but asked for pics of FS, that must mean she is well aware AA IS FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Helen_Azar on December 27, 2005, 07:31:13 PM
Quote

If we are referring to experts, and posting this as a fact to the board, do we give the name of the "experts" ?

Are facts to be backed up with actual names of experts, especially when in question of such major issues as these ?

If so, who are the "experts" please, and are they known, varifiable experts known in the field in and to do with photography, etc. of the present photos of FS ?

Where was the examination, etc. conducted please for the photo you offered them ? Can you tell us exactly what kind of an examination they conducted to barify any, and all final information ? I think it would be important for all of us to understand what kind of tests are offered and given to prove whether it is real or a fraud.
 


Thank you Tania for demonstrating my point. These are the very same questions I would like AGR to answer first, i.e. in reference to Greg King's statement that this particular photo was "retouched", before she presents it as undeniable factual evidence that no one should dare question (or risk being accused of making a "serious accusation").

Fact is, just because Greg King, or I, or anyone else for that matter, makes a statement that some unnamed "experts" said this or that ,without giving any sources or corroborating evidence, these statements don't automatically become facts. Indeed, these are absolutely meaningless statements and shouldn't even be used as an argument, which is AGR's unfortunate hobby.

This thread has now, unsurprisingly, morphed into a clone (pardon the expression) of every other AA/FS thread on this board - in other words became an utter bore, so I will gracefully bail out of it...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 27, 2005, 07:35:42 PM
Quote


Fact is, just because Greg King, or I, or anyone else for that matter, makes a statement that some unnamed "experts" said this or that ,without giving any sources or corroborating evidence, these statements don't automatically become facts. Indeed, these are absolutely meaningless statements and shouldn't even be used as an argument, which is AGR's unfortunate hobby.



Brilliantly put, exactly right.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 27, 2005, 08:37:11 PM
Quote
Considering that Greg King misidentified a prominent picture of Alexandra's sister Elisabeth as Alexandra herself in his biography of the latter, I am not so sure that he can be viewed as a true authority on photos, FS's or anyone else's...



When I first started to post on this forum,  I was told by Helen, Annie, FA, Elisaberth, Lisa and others  to read THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS by Greg King and Penny Wilson.  They were giving King and Wilson's  book their stamp of approval.  So,   I was lead to believe that their book about the Romanovs was an acceptable source on this forum.  

FA repeatedly  states that Greg King is a good friend of his.  With this kind of character reference,  I have assumed FA believes  Greg King's information is accurate and can be trusted.

Now, I am being told by Helen  that using Greg King's quote from one of his posts here on the forum where he talks about experts and the photograph that Greg King's information is not acceptable.  Or to use Helen's own words:

>>...I am not so sure that he can be viewed as a true authority on photos, FS's or anyone else's...<<

So, let's start with a simple yes or no by FA and those who govern this forum,  "Is Greg King a reliable source to use on this forum?"

If the answer is, "No,"  then I will be more than happy to contact him personally and asked him about his experts on the photographs.   Maybe,  I should contact him, anyway, so we can find out about the photograph of  Alexandra in his book or whereever it was and clear up that error, if that is what it was.

Meanwhile,  since I agree with Tania, maybe Helen can tell us what she has published on the Romanovs and  give us some information on  her experts, who gave her their opinions on the  photograph or photographs of FS.

Like I've said,  it doesn't matter to me where the facts take me.  I just enjoy the adventure.

AGRBear

-----------------
Correction:  Annie.  Annie tells us:
Quote

Can't speak for everyone, but I for one never said that.

If he said it when the book was written, perhaps the pic has surfaced since then.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 27, 2005, 09:23:47 PM
Quote

When I first started to post on this forum,  I was told by Helen, Annie, FA, Elisaberth, Lisa and others  to read THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS


Can't speak for everyone, but I for one never said that.

If he said it when the book was written, perhaps the pic has surfaced since then.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: jeremygaleaz on December 28, 2005, 02:48:19 AM
Quote

Can't speak for everyone, but I for one never said that.

 


Me neither. Some of the translations in that book are just awful.  






Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 28, 2005, 11:44:43 AM
Evidently I was  mistaken when I mention Annie as one of those who promoted the FATE OF THE ROMANOVS about  year and a half ago.

For a better list,  I went over to the book section and looked under the title of the book.  For those who haven't looked at this section, take a look and you can see for yourself those who have liked or disliked the book.

One example:
Quote
I think just about everyone on this entire board has read it!  Personally I am very impressed & particularly appreciate the refreshing perspective on the family itself. I would like to see a "pre-quel" Tobolsk and even before.  Considering the massive research involved,  Penny & Greg must have at least one other volume in them !


Another example:
Quote
I want to add my two cents here, as AnastasiaFan and I started to discuss this topic on a different thread.

One of the reasons I liked FOTR is because until this book came out, I always felt like something was missing from the portrayals of the characters in other Romanov- related books. The personalities were often polarized, either too stereotypically good or too stereotypically bad, kind of flat even because of that. The authors always seemed to take sides and go out of their way to show either the angelic IF or the evil revolutionaries. To me, somehow something was always missing in these portrayals, something I couldn't quite put my finger on but I always felt that there must be more to it. In FOTR we saw things that were different. We saw the IF members that were not such an ideal family after all, instead a normal human one with all the issues and problems of a normal family. They had issues like normal teenage daughters have with their mother (who doesn't?). This of course didn't  mean they were matricidal, or that they couldn't stand the site of her or would never write loving notes or letters to her, they just mean that there were normal tensions between the mother and her children, as we can witness across the board in a common human experience, royal or not they were human. Somehow the portrayal in FOTR seemed more realistic to me. I know there have been many accounts of the IF being the most harmonious and the most ideal family ever, who never had any discords among each other or any disagreements and who all loved each other at all time and never argued. This is all very nice, and I am sure some people really did see them that way. But we all know that things are rarely, if ever, what they appear to be. I am not saying that this means that things behind the royal doors were totally different than they seemed, or that when no one was looking Nicholas would get drunk and beat his wife and children or something like that, but I am fairly sure that they were not as ideal as they have been described in the past. I am certain that beyond the "facade"(for the lack of better term), they were real human beings - teenagers or young adults, with mood swings and all. I don't think that makes them seem any less admirable in certain ways that they were, and it doesn't make them any less likable. In fact, quite the opposite, it made them seem more real and more interesting. I think this was the first book that actually addressed many of these things, and maybe this is why many people were taken aback by it. But just because something was never addressed in other books before, it doesn't mean at all that it must be false information. In fact, from what I understand, Penny and Greg were two of very few Romanov historians who actually went to primary sources for their references, and this makes it more credible to me.

Helen


Helen wrote: >> In fact, from what I understand, Penny and Greg were two of very few Romanov historians who actually went to primary sources for their references, and this makes it more credible to me. <<

Of course one can't agree with every statement in a book.  Often times you or I may concluded something different from the same facts.  It is a fact that humans have the  capabilities of being able to  think for ourselves and we can create opinions and conclusions on just about everything.

On the subject of the "untouched" photographs  Helen does not agree with Greg, whom I quoted and felt was a good source on this subject.

Quote
Considering that Greg King misidentified a prominent picture of Alexandra's sister Elisabeth as Alexandra herself in his biography of the latter, I am not so sure that he can be viewed as a true authority on photos, FS's or anyone else's...



To me, it seems that Helen pointed out a new fact that  Greg King made an error about another  photograph in one of his books.

At this point,  Helen did not mention any experts to whom she has spoken nor anything else to give any kind of weight to her statement.

I then mentioned that the error might not have been Greg King's but a possible error created during the publishing phase.  This theory was ignored.

Quote
...[in part]...

Where are the sources for Greg King's statements? Who are these so called "experts" who "examined" this photo?  Well, my experts have examined this photo and said that it was not retouched. So prove me wrong.



Okay.  We, now, have a firm view:  They, Helen and Greg,  don't agree.  

It's the first time I've heard about any experts of Helen's.

Helen tells us their experts, whomever they are, do not agree.  

So,  how do we go about discovering who these experts are and how will we know who is right?  

Maybe, it's best to start with question #1:
Does anyone know where the original photo of FS is?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 28, 2005, 05:00:37 PM
Hi Helen_A,

I'm delighted I could demonstrate the point, but I think you failed to gain my'n, lol. If this is a main point of contention, you had stated also in your post, that you took your photo of FS to 'photo experts', and of what their contention was. You did not however name who your experts were, where the test was conducted, etc. etc. etc., as I had asked you directly. I believe that the request here was to offer 'factual' backed up statements, and so if one is asked, then all should be asked to do the same. Fair enough in terms of checks and balances.

So, please, before you bow out, would you also bring forth your facts before this AP Board so we may all be able to equally evaluate what your experts had to state? Thanks for offering the full allowance of equal balance of 'expert evaluators' to be brought forth, so we all may benefit and draw our own conclusions freely.

Tatiana


Quote

Thank you Tania for demonstrating my point. These are the very same questions I would like AGR to answer first, i.e. in reference to Greg King's statement that this particular photo was "retouched", before she presents it as undeniable factual evidence that no one should dare question (or risk being accused of making a "serious accusation").

Fact is, just because Greg King, or I, or anyone else for that matter, makes a statement that some unnamed "experts" said this or that ,without giving any sources or corroborating evidence, these statements don't automatically become facts. Indeed, these are absolutely meaningless statements and shouldn't even be used as an argument, which is AGR's unfortunate hobby.

This thread has now, unsurprisingly, morphed into a clone (pardon the expression) of every other AA/FS thread on this board - in other words became an utter bore, so I will gracefully bail out of it...

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 28, 2005, 07:32:23 PM
I think it is important to set th facts straight. There are no untouched photos o Franziska Schanzkowska according to books by Kurth and King. If Annie however can actually provide a source for why she believes she owns the only untouched photo of Franziska, it would be interesting to see it.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 28, 2005, 07:51:29 PM
Quote
I think it is important to set th facts straight. There are no untouched photos o Franziska Schanzkowska according to books by Kurth and King. If Annie however can actually provide a source for why she believes she owns the only untouched photo of Franziska, it would be interesting to see it.


As Helen has said, her experts have ruled the picture unretouched. If you take a look at the one that I posted as unretouched, and compare it to the retouched one, you can see an obvious difference. If the faded pic I say is unretouched is retouched, I beg you to show me where. Its features aren't even distinct.

As for the authors mentioned saying there are none, two factors must be considered: Kurth is a well known supporter of AA being AN, and King has seemed to lean that way, but also, it could very well be they said this before the unretouched picture surfaced.

Monkey G, you seem very ready to point me out by name for a newbie. I would bet the bank we'd met before ;)

And BTW your avatar shouldn't be "Mrs." Anderson, since AA was not married, and when she was, she was Mrs. Manahan.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 28, 2005, 07:59:11 PM
Quote

As Helen has said, her experts have ruled the picture unretouched. If you take a look at the one that I posted as unretouched, and compare it to the retouched one, you can see an obvious difference. If the faded pic I say is unretouched is retouched, I beg you to show me where. Its features aren't even distinct.

As for the authors mentioned saying there are none, two factors must be considered: Kurth is a well known supporter of AA being AN, and King has seemed to lean that way, but also, it could very well be they said this before the unretouched picture surfaced.

Monkey G, you seem very ready to point me out by name for a newbie. I would bet the bank we'd met before ;)

And BTW your avatar shouldn't be "Mrs." Anderson, since AA was not married, and when she was, she was Mrs. Manahan.
she herself asked to be called Mrs. Anderson, and before that, don't tell me what to put in my avatar as I do not tell you what to write below your's. As for the other matter, I could also claim to have experts that have determined a pitcure touched up, but if dosen't mean it is true. And the fact that Kurth supports AA does not mean he would make something like that up. Please provide further proof that there are published untouched photos of FS other than "so and so's experts have determined it to be so". All books on the subject seem to point to the fact that the existing photos are touched up.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 28, 2005, 08:01:50 PM
Please provide info that it is. It is obviously not, look for yourself. Please explain how it possibly could be. It's way too faded, nothing has been added.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 28, 2005, 08:07:18 PM
Quote
Please provide info that it is. It is obviously not, look for yourself. Please explain how it possibly could be. It's way too faded, nothing has been added.

Please don't turn this around on me. You are the one who has yet to provide a source for where this untouched photo has come from, where it was published, and how you know it was untouched. I have stated my sources. It's written in "Anastasia: The Riddle of Anna Anderson" that there are no untouched photos of FS. That is a source, which is something you have yet to provide me with.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 28, 2005, 08:13:42 PM
Seems to me I've heard all this before, from someone else who had a G in his name! Welcome back, but I'm not in the mood. It's all so silly! :D
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: jolie on December 28, 2005, 08:15:26 PM
Annie,

YOU BEAT ME!!  I was just going to ask this newbie if he/she were a retread.   Just doesn't pass the smell test, IMO.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 28, 2005, 08:16:50 PM
Quote
Seems to me I've heard all this before, from someone else who had a G in his name! Welcome back, but I'm not in the mood. It's all so silly! :D

I haven't a clue to what you are talking about, but please back to the subject. Don't avoid me, just provide me with the source as to where you recieved the exclusive info that there is an untouched photo of FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 29, 2005, 10:02:56 AM
Welcome calebGmoney,

Certain posters become agitated when newbies come along who agree with our need to know the facts with sources.  When I first arrived they called me Rodger, then Shay McNeal and since have called me all kinds of names.  

On this subject, I have quoted Greg King and you have mentioned Peter Kurth.  Two  sources have been presented  which provide the fact that there are no untouched photographs of FS known at this time.

Helen insists that she has presented a photograph to experts.  I'd like to know where she obtained the photograph,  how was it authenicated as being the original or a reliable copy from the original as well as who her experts were.

The burden of proof would be on all three: Greg King, Peter Kurth and Helen if they produce a photograph which they claim is "untouched".  Thus far, only Helen has made this claim.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 11:44:48 AM
If I believed it was a newbie, things would be different. There was also another 'newbie' whose rude post has been deleted, along wth others my "G" and myself and etonexile. Something fishy is going on here, and it's a shame some of us haven't got better things to do.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 29, 2005, 12:07:00 PM
Annie, there is no reason to make a problem if there is none.

FA will take care of the problem if there is one.

Meanwhile, let's return to the topic.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 12:25:23 PM
I have said all I can say about the picture. I will not argue with an alias.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Forum Admin on December 29, 2005, 01:02:08 PM
I deleted the offensive posts, as well as two responses to them, for obvious reasons. Nothing should be "fishy" about that. The offensive posts were by someone who either "banned themselves" voluntarily or were banned by me, from the forum.  

Sadly, you'd be surprised (or maybe not) at how many such anonymous attacks are attempted here. I unfortunately spend a good deal of time being vigilant against such people who seem to have so little in their lives as they nothing more productive to do than come in here to post offensive, rude and negative things.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: pentetorri on December 29, 2005, 01:36:00 PM
Reading this thread I arrive to the conclusion that when Annie or Helen, or any person that agrees with the theory that AA was FS , state a fact, show a picture touched, untouched or retouched :P, that is the ultimate truth. Their experts, oh how misused this word is, are always right, no matter their names are never mentioned. I wonder how many experts are around!!! It must be very lucrative to be one.

They are so outright extreme in their beliefs as to discredit known writers in the subject as King or Kurth. I wonder if Annie has ever been in Russia, in any Russian or European archives or handle primary sources on the subject , as King or Kurth have done, to be so intellectually snob towards these writers and their
work.  I wonder what credentials do these people( Annie, Helen) have to be so judgemental? May be they are very known historians, who knows ???

Even though  these unpleasant examples of intollerance, this forum is very fun and informative full of very intelligent people as Bear, real Anastasia, etc, who never cease me to surprise with their knowledge of the subject.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 29, 2005, 02:02:07 PM
To be fair, it is why I expressed my question to the effect when one is stating any fact.

Always on these forums, it has always been demanded that ALL show and Share that pertinent information of actual FACTS, as well of the real names of those whom are or have been exceptional in their fields, as named "EXPERTS".

Even when citing where pictures have been aquired, or in quoting statements, posters are and have been asked to cite, author, book, exact page, etc.

I vote that we offer 'credentialed' persons when offering the title of "experts".

In the name of history, and to the reality of offering to those who are real historians, or the countless readers in the thousands, whom are also children, we owe them that much !!!

This way, it allows all posters, and all readers an identifiable way of coming to their very own decisions and understandings, without anyone making one given statement for all to think or re quote later as gospel. We cannot offer anything less.

I hope we shall on these forums continue to offer truth in it's entirety, and not colored by one's own wish to be the one and only given truth.

So for the record, in the question of the photos of Franziska Schanzkowska, what is the real truth about this photograph in every sense as many of the previous posters are asking ?

Most of all who are these many credentialed experts ?

Tatiana




Quote
Reading this thread I arrive to the conclusion that when Annie or Helen, or any person that agrees with the theory that AA was FS , state a fact, show a picture touched, untouched or retouched :P, that is the ultimate truth. Their experts, oh how misused this word is, are always right, no matter their names are never mentioned. I wonder how many experts are around!!! It must be very lucrative to be one.

They are so outright extreme in their beliefs as to discredit known writers in the subject as King or Kurth. I wonder if Annie has ever been in Russia, in any Russian or European archives or handle primary sources on the subject , as King or Kurth have done, to be so intellectually snob towards these writers and their
 work.  I wonder what credentials do these people( Annie, Helen) have to be so judgemental? May be they are very known historians, who knows ???

Even though  these unpleasant examples of intollerance, this forum is very fun and informative full of very intelligent people as Bear, real Anastasia, etc, who never cease me to surprise with their knowledge of the subject.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 02:03:09 PM
Quote
I deleted the offensive posts, as well as two responses to them, for obvious reasons. Nothing should be "fishy" about that.


It wasn't the deleting that was 'fishy', but the 'newbie' posters.

Quote
The offensive posts were by someone who either "banned themselves" voluntarily or were banned by me, from the forum.  

Sadly, you'd be surprised (or maybe not) at how many such anonymous attacks are attempted here. I unfortunately spend a good deal of time being vigilant against such people who seem to have so little in their lives as they nothing more productive to do than come in here to post offensive, rude and negative things.



It is sad indeed, but sadly not so surprising. :(
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 02:15:26 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/redo2.jpg)

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that the pic on the left has not been retouched and the one on the right has. The one on the left is so faded there is no way anything has been done to it, it's just a faded, grainy old photo. If you don't believe me you can run this off on a printer and take it to your own experts.

Tania, if you really want to 'be fair' then you need to consider the history of this place and certain individuals before 'judging.' BTW, Helen has been to Russia and done a great deal of research.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 29, 2005, 02:16:28 PM
 ;)

Back to the thread, and just waiting for the many questions to be addressed.

First :

Who are these EXPERTS ?


Tatiana
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 29, 2005, 02:40:37 PM
Annie,

Annie, I'm no rookie, and a bit wiser in discerning when one is being made to think, I have not any right to ask of proof. On the contrary, I do !

How can you ask or plea that of fainess Annie, when you are and do not stand by all the previous demands and rules of what has and continues to transpire on these threads, in relation to stating veritable facts, based first and foremost on truth ?

Your offering me to take on just the history of this place, is not a stated nor related statement in consideration of my asking you or any of the others to share with our forum members, who your experts are.

Each of you individually stated you had experts.

It is now your responsibility by virtue of your own given statements alone, to produce the facts of who are those experts, and so forth.

One cannot rely in any medium nor certainly not just on the extraordinary phrase you have just used, when asking to be taken seriously by your statement that you have singularly offered direct proof of a veritable expert. You are being unfair to yourself, as well to all members here.

I have been to Russia. I am Russian. I have relatives in Russia, and at high academic levels. They also are in and have done a greater respect in terms of research.

What is your point? Please ????

I'm not the one that should remain with proving the points at hand. I'm just one of the many readers, and a poster now and then.

My simple statement is something that is not at all to be labored on, and still remains.

The questions are now left with those of you who have made the statement, that you have consulted with photographic known experts and await in your court to be securely responded to.

Thanks for your feedback !   ;)

Tatiana






Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/redo.jpg)

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that the pic on the left has not been retouched and the one on the right has. ((Shapes of the faces may have been distorted by my photoshop but not the general content) The one on the left is so faded there is no way anything has been done to it, it's just a faded, grainy old photo. If you don't believe me you can run this off on a printer and take it to your own experts.

Tania, if you really want to 'be fair' then you need to consdier the history of this place and certain individuals before 'judging.' BTW, Helen has been to Russia and done a great deal of research.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: pentetorri on December 29, 2005, 02:51:12 PM
quote author=Tania link=board=anastasia;num=1135591068;start=25#37 date=12/29/05 at 14:16:28] ;)

Back to the thread, and just waiting for the many questions to be addressed.

First :

Who are these EXPERTS ?

I am afraid you will not get an answer to that. Usually, for those intollerable individuals  an expert is any person who has some university degree who would agree unconditionally with their theories. But, generally it is always Mr. John Doe. A historian, or a researcher,  or anyone who disagrees with them, that is called a misguided "aficionado".

Read some of the old threads on Anna Anderson and you will see how some members have been treated by expressing some support for AA. See how they treat in this thread King as unreliable for some picture exchange that if ever happenned certainly was done by the Editor or some reasonable overview.




Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 29, 2005, 03:15:05 PM
Pentetorri,

At the start of these threads, there is a new thread in essence to thank the members, FA, and Founder of their continuance and excellence in having this site.

All the more, must we continue to offer and exact excellence. No matter what 'name' we offer to other posters, to be responded to, we are still known by the quality of what we offer as individuals. One may hide behind many names, and or be relentless in securing what needs one wishes to attain. This is never hidden from those who read between the lines, and are real seekers of truth.

From here on I ask for those who remain true to the values that Bob and Rob have set up, that we continue to validate their stance in offering that sameness of excellence !

Remember, our names are here if only to make sure that history is accorded every dignity it can afford, when especially of those who are no longer to speak for themselves. That is the fairest dignity we can offer of ourselves, in that of offering truth. It's not a lot to ask for.

So again, Who Are The Experts ? Annie, Helen_A, who are they ?

Tatiana




Quote
quote author=Tania link=board=anastasia;num=1135591068;start=25#37 date=12/29/05 at 14:16:28] ;)

Back to the thread, and just waiting for the many questions to be addressed.

First :

Who are these EXPERTS ?

I am afraid you will not get an answer to that. Usually, for those intollerable individuals  an expert is any person who has some university degree who would agree unconditionally with their theories. But, generally it is always Mr. John Doe. A historian, or a researcher,  or anyone who disagrees with them, that is called a misguided "aficionado".

Read some of the old threads on Anna Anderson and you will see how some members have been treated by expressing some support for AA. See how they treat in this thread King as unreliable for some picture exchange that if ever happenned certainly was done by the Editor or some reasonable overview.





Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 04:07:30 PM
Quote

 What is your point?







1. That the picture on the left is not retouched, the picture on the right is, and this is plainly obvious to all but the blind.

2. No matter how many times these pics are scruntized, AA will NEVER be AN, because DNA has proven her not to be.

3. People often yell for 'sources' because they know that's how to get out of people trying to tell them things they don't want to hear. They will say 'where's your source' when it's just something that is to be taken as common sense, because they know they can keep right on yelling that forever and never have to deal with the truth. Others love to do it because they know they can quote stuff out of the same old tired AA books and there can be no 'source' to contradict it, since people who don't believe in AA don't write books about it. Ironically, people who scream for 'sources' almost always ignore the best 'source' of all, the DNA tests.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 29, 2005, 04:34:59 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSFaceA.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSBdistorted.jpg)

The one photo with the red is the distorted version of the first one.  Has the same faded look.  The distortion made the face thinner.  I could make the face longer,  broader, pulled on the nose, widen the lips...  Good old photoshop  took a few years off my Xmas photo this year, too.  Love that software   ;D

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: pentetorri on December 29, 2005, 04:36:25 PM
Quote

1. That the picture on the left is not retouched, the picture on the right is, and this is plainly obvious to all but the blind.

2. No matter how many times these pics are scruntized, AA will NEVER be AN, because DNA has proven her not to be.

3. People often yell for 'sources' because they know that's how to get out of people trying to tell them things they don't want to hear. They will say 'where's your source' when it's just something that is to be taken as common sense, because they know they can keep right on yelling that forever and never have to deal with the truth. Others love to do it because they know they can quote stuff out of the same old tired AA books and there can be no 'source' to contradict it, since people who don't believe in AA don't write books about it. Ironically, people who scream for 'sources' almost always ignore the best 'source' of all, the DNA tests.



You see Tania, they do not have experts or sources, just John Does, and of course the most famous controversial DNA test done when AA was already dead and cremated. No matter the physical similarities, a whole lot of testimonies in her favour, no just a very tiny sample, which can be contested, it's enough for these people to qualify serious researches as old tired books.

The high standards you look for, will not be found in their realm. You are wasting your energies. They only believe in the infallible test but still you see them jumping from thread to thread regarding  AA even if they believe her a fraud, how curious!!

Even if they did not have the test they would cling to that retouched picture as proof.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 04:47:50 PM
Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSFaceA.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSBdistorted.jpg)

The one photo with the red is the distorted version of the first one.  Has the same faded look.  The distortion made the face thinner.  I could make the face longer,  broader, pulled on the nose, widen the lips...  Good old photoshop can even took a few years off my Xmas photo this year.  Love that software   ;D

AGRBear



I had this problem too and had to make my copy over. With mine, the picture comes up in the center of the screen, and if you have to move it over some to make room for the other, it stretches. It's hard to get it back to what it exactly was. However, this is the fault of our photoshop alone, no sinister plot from long ago to distort a pic to look different for any reason.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 29, 2005, 05:01:10 PM
Quote


I had this problem too and had to make my copy over. With mine, the picture comes up in the center of the screen, and if you have to move it over some to make room for the other, it stretches. It's hard to get it back to what it exactly was. However, this is the fault of our photoshop alone, no sinister plot from long ago to distort a pic to look different for any reason.


I think you have misunderstood.  I did the distortion for my post on purpose to show how easy it is to do.  

If you are having difficulties, I can help you if you would like to know a little more about this great software.  PM me.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 29, 2005, 05:13:50 PM
Quote
I have said all I can say about the picture. I will not argue with an alias.

But you have YET to provide a source. I dosen't matter who new I am to the forum. What matters is that I don't accept what people tell me without some sort of source for why they believe it such. Please quit avoiding my question and tell me your source.

P.S.  I have respect for people who support the theory that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schanzkowska, even though I can't agree with it. However, I still expect those who support this theory to provide a source for the things they claim.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 29, 2005, 05:20:07 PM
Quote
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/redo2.jpg)

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see that the pic on the left has not been retouched and the one on the right has. The one on the left is so faded there is no way anything has been done to it, it's just a faded, grainy old photo.
Just because it is faded does not mean it has not been touched up in some way. You don't even know where this photo has come from.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 29, 2005, 05:28:03 PM
Quote

1. That the picture on the left is not retouched, the picture on the right is, and this is plainly obvious to all but the blind.

2. No matter how many times these pics are scruntized, AA will NEVER be AN, because DNA has proven her not to be.

3. People often yell for 'sources' because they know that's how to get out of people trying to tell them things they don't want to hear. They will say 'where's your source' when it's just something that is to be taken as common sense, because they know they can keep right on yelling that forever and never have to deal with the truth. Others love to do it because they know they can quote stuff out of the same old tired AA books and there can be no 'source' to contradict it, since people who don't believe in AA don't write books about it. Ironically, people who scream for 'sources' almost always ignore the best 'source' of all, the DNA tests.

[color=Beige]But you see. You simply won't explain anything. You simply state that the picture on the left is untouched because you say it is and that's that. That's not going to work to convince anyone who matters.
And then you state that because of a DNA test done in only 3 labs, she cannot be Anastasia because of course none of Anderson's opponents would ever want to hide the truth even though they clearly lied in court back in 60's during the 'Anastasia' trials when they continually touched up photographs and added things to her clothes in the pictures. [/color]
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 29, 2005, 06:50:11 PM
Quote
But you have YET to provide a source. I dosen't matter who new I am to the forum. What matters is that I don't accept what people tell me without some sort of source for why they believe it such. Please quit avoiding my question and tell me your source.


As I said in my other post:

3. People often yell for 'sources' because they know that's how to get out of people trying to tell them things they don't want to hear. They will say 'where's your source' when it's just something that is to be taken as common sense, because they know they can keep right on yelling that forever and never have to deal with the truth. Others love to do it because they know they can quote stuff out of the same old tired AA books and there can be no 'source' to contradict it, since people who don't believe in AA don't write books about it. Ironically, people who scream for 'sources' almost always ignore the best 'source' of all, the DNA tests.  


Quote
P.S.  I have respect for people who support the theory that Anna Anderson was Franziska Schanzkowska, even though I can't agree with it. However, I still expect those who support this theory to provide a source for the things they claim.[/color]


Here you go!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anastasiadna.jpg)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 29, 2005, 07:30:02 PM
Annie,

The main point of contention and in question was and still is : Who are your experts ? You were the one as Helen_A who stated in your very own posts to this forum on this thread, of what 'your experts' had stated. Instead of you adding to the positive stance of this fine forum, you choose to place yourself in the place of honored title and stature, that YOU are the expert ????

             For the benefit of all readers :
             Where are your expert credentials ?

This has nothing to do with fidgiting with any software, or making copies, of whatever color of the picture(s) or whatnot. You also point out that all that is needed is common sense. In this case you fail again, because you are trying to do everything but answer one simple question.

The question is not if one is blind or not, or what you wish to twist into what you want the answer to be.
Before even getting to the point of scrutiny, you have not responded to the first line of inquiry.

The question did not have anything to do with DNA either. You have hopped all over the board stating everything from that a person is of a specific nationality, has visited Russia, has done some research, etc., etc., etc.Or chose to blame it on photoshop equipment, etc. The above are all very shallow excuses, and endless ramble.

In a court of law, you would be laughed out, and dismissed.

Your credability is shot at least here on this subject matter in terms of stepping forth and you yourself stating your source, as an expert you went to personally.[/b]

You can't have it both ways. First you ask us the members of the AP Forum and it's readers to believe everything that this forum has to offer, (and that means standing by the high standards that Bob and Rob have set forth), then in the same breath, offer nothing at all, and offer just non sensecal ramble.

I'm not in a bunch of other people here or off site of the web, looking to create some sort of difficulty. Whether we are a new member, or long time poster, we ALL have the right to ask and receive logical and expected responses, especially when any poster has stated they directly have taken something to a given source, or expert.

Directly right or wrong, individually each question deserves to responded to, and with all acuity and indeed to the respective professionalism it deserves.

Thanks...

Tatiana


 

Quote

1. That the picture on the left is not retouched, the picture on the right is, and this is plainly obvious to all but the blind.

2. No matter how many times these pics are scruntized, AA will NEVER be AN, because DNA has proven her not to be.

3. People often yell for 'sources' because they know that's how to get out of people trying to tell them things they don't want to hear. They will say 'where's your source' when it's just something that is to be taken as common sense, because they know they can keep right on yelling that forever and never have to deal with the truth. Others love to do it because they know they can quote stuff out of the same old tired AA books and there can be no 'source' to contradict it, since people who don't believe in AA don't write books about it. Ironically, people who scream for 'sources' almost always ignore the best 'source' of all, the DNA tests.

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 29, 2005, 09:53:34 PM
Annie, what I meant by source is that you won't explain where you found that this picture is untouched. I didn't need you to post the 'results' of the DNA tests. Just because you think it is common sense that the picture has not been touched up does not make it true. Please provide your source. If you cannot do it, then you have no standing.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on December 30, 2005, 07:40:53 AM
Someone has definately misread  my posts. I NEVER said MY experts. NEVER. Go back and read all  my posts.

Second, yes, I do see it as common sense. Who are YOUR 'experts?" ONE poster who claims there are no retouched photos, and this was before the unretouched one surfaced? You have NOTHING!

If you cannot see for yourself the picture is so dull and faded nothing has been done to it, I can't help you. You are free to run off copies of both pictures I have posted and take them to 'your experts' if you feel so strongly about it but I'm sure anyone will only laugh.

No matter how much you yell for a source, that picture is never going to change. Why are you so upset about it, because it looks so much like AA? The fact remains, it really doesn't even matter, since DNA has proven that AA was not AN and was 99.9% FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 30, 2005, 12:19:45 PM
Bear and Dear Readers,

I went back to this first page of this thread, and see that here is one that quoted that they had their experts.
But no response as yet as to whom the experts names that were used, when this test was done, where, how, etc.

Quote :
Posted by: Helen_A Posted on: Dec 27th, 2005, 12:27pm

AGR - you little hypocritical instigator. You know very well that I did not make any accusations - I simply stated a fact. And when may I ask do you actually check your facts when you make your very public accusations against various parties (and yours are usually true accusations)?  

Where are the sources for Greg King's statements? Who are these so called "experts" who "examined" this photo?  Well, my experts have examined this photo and said that it was not retouched. So prove me wrong.  
End Quote

Very interesting, to say one has actually stated to prove their point, to actually make a statement (as if to say, no one can prove me wrong) because I have gone to 'experts'. But once again this same poster, then posts to the board once they see that they cannot use this refuge point, to then state :

Quote :
Fact is, just because Greg King, or I, or anyone else for that matter, makes a statement that some unnamed "experts" said this or that ,without giving any sources or corroborating evidence, these statements don't automatically become facts. Indeed, these are absolutely meaningless statements and shouldn't even be used as an argument, which is AGR's unfortunate hobby.
End Quote

Yet in the early part of the thread, this same person stated and used this statement

Quote :
Considering that Greg King misidentified a prominent picture of Alexandra's sister Elisabeth as Alexandra herself in his biography of the latter, I am not so sure that he can be viewed as a true authority on photos, FS's or anyone else's...
End Quote

I'm going back to see whom else posted that they had experts they took this same picture in question to.Also looked at the thread again, and your right AGBear the 'original' picture was not used by any poster to a certain the answers to the questions posters have raised.

I went through the thread, and Annie is correct. She never stated, 'my experts', not once. My apologies Annie. But again, there still needs to be an identifiable source of an expert to barify what the claim is to date on the forum. That still waits, and needs to be substantiated.

This site is taken seriously, so when someone claims they have taken a historical item to be examined, I'm sure not only on this site, but globally since there are many following the outcome of any and all of these facts, they would want to know, what has transpired of every understanding. So whatever we state here, there are many more taking these threads to others.

That's why we need to make sure we don't offer to any viewer, false leads, false hopes, or any false statements. This for many is not a place to post idle words, but barifiable facts, especially when one uses strongly the word "experts" !
Thanks !

Tatiana






Quote


AGR - you little hypocritical instigator. You know very well that I did not make any accusations - I simply stated a fact. And when may I ask do you actually check your facts when you make your very public accusations against various parties (and yours are usually true accusations)?

Where are the sources for Greg King's statements? Who are these so called "experts" who "examined" this photo?  Well, my experts have examined this photo and said that it was not retouched. So prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on December 30, 2005, 12:42:38 PM
Quote
Someone has definately misread  my posts. I NEVER said MY experts. NEVER. Go back and read all  my posts.

Second, yes, I do see it as common sense. Who are YOUR 'experts?" ONE poster who claims there are no retouched photos, and this was before the unretouched one surfaced? You have NOTHING!

If you cannot see for yourself the picture is so dull and faded nothing has been done to it, I can't help you. You are free to run off copies of both pictures I have posted and take them to 'your experts' if you feel so strongly about it but I'm sure anyone will only laugh.

No matter how much you yell for a source, that picture is never going to change. Why are you so upset about it, because it looks so much like AA? The fact remains, it really doesn't even matter, since DNA has proven that AA was not AN and was 99.9% FS.

Please tell me when this photo suddenly appeared and how you miraculously obtained it.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on December 30, 2005, 01:19:36 PM
Some time ago, I brought up the questions as to what photograph had the television show about Anna Anderson use to fuse the photo they claimed as AA with that of FS.  None of the answers was acceptable to me.  Meanwhile, there was another thread talking about photos.  So we were jumping back and forth.  A number of us brought in photographs which were copies off the television show, books and  Kurth's web site.

----
Thread on the comparison of FS photo to that of AA.
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1115181730;start=0#0

Quote
Alice and others,

Over on the thread Fusion of photographs of AA and FS is a discussion of the similarities of the two images used, as well as questions about the photographs and the originals and some interesting stuff from jaa.  Don't miss his last comment about angles which he shows using an apple.

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1111365984;start=0#0

Evidently  the two known photographs of FS were altered and this is in evidence of AA's trial.

AGRBear


The URL in my quote takes you to the thread:  Fusion of pictures of AA and FS.

Quote

Bear, look on Peter Kurth's AA site, I believe that both photos are there - in their original form. Just scroll down and look for them, they should be there....

http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA.htm



Quote

...[in [art]...
I just found this FS photo which is supposedly the original version - before it was manipulated (next to it are the two "re-touched" versions):

(http://img153.exs.cx/img153/961/fsoriginal8wx.png)
(http://img153.exs.cx/img153/1440/fstouchedup2kz.png)
(http://img224.exs.cx/img224/2489/fsretouched4vm.png)


Under the three photographs Kurth wrote:

>>Franziska Schanzkowska (left):  the only published photograph, reportedly from 1916; as she appeared (center) in the Berliner Nachtausgabe, March 1927; and (right) her face, three times retouched, as submitted in Pierre Gilliard and Konstantin Savitch’s La fausse Anastasie (Paris, Payot, 1929).<<

Kurths words do not tell us that the one published from 1916 was or was not "retouched".

My photo is a copy of the  1916 photo which came from Summers and Mangold's book FILE ON THE TSAR.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSManSumBK1.jpg)

I then took the same photo and just showedd the face which I had enlarged.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/FSFaceA.jpg)

The enlargement shows the quality of the paper used in the FILE ON THE TSAR.   If the publisher had used better quality, the photo would have been lacking the markings which are lines [threads] crossing unless they had a copy which already had this finish to it.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on December 30, 2005, 02:42:09 PM
Dear Bear,

Good work. I don't think that the answers will actually satisfy anyone with an interest in this matter, since it appears that everyone has been at least partly correct. Kurth clearly labels the second and third pictures as being retouched, and they clearly were, so clumsily that they were recognized as such as soon as they were produced. The original 1916 picture is another matter, and I think the context of his remarks indicate that Kurth did not consider it to be retouched. He didn't consider it to be Andersen, either, which is what this is all about anyway.

But thanks for actually citing the places where you can see the picture. It wasn't exactly hidden away, was it?

Happy New Year,

Simon
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 30, 2005, 04:13:44 PM
Well AGBear,

You've done it again, but then from you I would not expect anything better then the excellence you continue to offer and share  !   :)

Thank you for your direct referals to :
*May 4th, 2005  2:34pm
*Mar 23rd 2005 11:13pm
*Feb 28th 2005 12:05pm

I further concur with Louis_Charles latest post.

Now that's getting involved, not wasting the readers time, patience, and or manuverings to derail truth from being shared in the most professional manner.

Threads like this are so important to be supportive of, when everyone is in earnest, and working for the greater good. Quality always speaks loud and clear. You follow through to the end. This is where credebility is made short and long term, and ends as one's signature of thoroughness !

We have to have our facts straight, and our focus to follow through every singular fact offered. It's very, very meticulous work, but for truth, there are no short cuts. No time for quibble or squabble, only focus to find answers. This you do repeatedly with finnesse and considerate care. Your more than an asset to our threads AG, your a wonder of patience in motion !  ;)

Always, thanks for your great work !

Tatiana


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: cimbrio on December 31, 2005, 10:22:30 AM
I wish the Bolsheviks had never killed the Imperial Family so we'd stop quarreling over such nonsense of photographs of people so wholly unconnected with royalty! :P
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on December 31, 2005, 11:04:37 AM
Dear Cimbrio,

With all my heart, as you, and countless other Russians, we more than wished that these terrible savage murders of the IF, and other known, unknown lives, infancy to elderly had never transpired.

As a child, teen and young adult, I used to look at my father's face, and wonder what horrific hell he had survived as a young teen from escaping the early communist prison and revolution. It silenced me just to read about the revolution, etc., but for those who went through it and survived, it silenced them for life.

We can't change the past, but we can work together to make sure it never happens again !

Tatiana


Quote
I wish the Bolsheviks had never killed the Imperial Family so we'd stop quarreling over such nonsense of photographs of people so wholly unconnected with royalty! :P

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on December 31, 2005, 05:54:11 PM
Dear Tania:

                         I didn't excpected this from you, who are a good person.

                          When I use the name "experts" they are really experts. If you wants their names, here they are:

                           ANTHROPOLOGIC AN FORENSIC SENIOR EXPERT: Prof. Carlos Kuz.

                           GENETICIST AND DNA EXPERT: Dr. Belisario Otamendi

                             PSYCHOLOGIC EXPERT: Dr and Prof. Graciela Lucci.

                              PSYCHIATRIST EXPERT: Dr. Prof. Eduardo Bischoff.

                              GRAPHOLOGIST EXPERT : Prof.

Enrique Mosquera.

                               ACTOR: Guillermo Marín.

                              PHOTOGRAPH EXPERT: Pompeo D'Azzierno.

                              MEDICINE EXPERT: Alejandro Pavlovsky
                              POLISH RESIDENT: Mrs. Stanislawa Kuchansky -Szaszak (I'm not sure of the spelling of the first name).

                               RUSSIAN RESIDENT: Mrs. Rosa Petrov.

                               German RESIDENT: Anny Scheffer.


 So, I give names, and they are INDEED experts. Of course, I'll not accept these only opinions. I'll go for new experts and new opinions (based in scientific facts, of course, and whithout lefting DNA away).

  And if you supposes that all people who quotes expert's opinions are dumb or are lying...Well; there is a single way to know it: do the same work I'm doing. Perhaps, I consulted the wrong people and they said me only nonsense things. But do it...

It's a good excersice, after all, and you'll learn lots of things, not only about Anna Anderson , but about life, history and different cultures.

I'm very grateful to these people that you call "experts" with a certain scorn. I didn't know how ignorant I was, before speaking with them.

Happy New Year.

RealAnastasia.

                             

                           
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on January 03, 2006, 02:40:27 PM
Thank you for naming your experts, RealAnastasia.

I believe you've mentioned you had talked to   expert on the photograph of FS and photographs of AA on other threads.

I don't think Tania was directing her statement toward your earlier posts on other threads.

Could you repeat here on this thread what the differences were that your expert, Pompeo D'Azzierno,  saw when comparing the one known as FS and the others known as AA?  And, could you give us some background on Pompeo D'Azzierno so we can understand why you regard this person as an expert.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 03, 2006, 03:39:27 PM
With any experts listed here, I just have one question: where can I find their published works (i.e. in which journals has their research been published)?  It would be helpful to know this and give more information on their background, expertise and their standing in the scientific community.

I'm not trying to be picky here, but like some others I am getting tired of seeing 'experts' thrown around.  Is there any comprehensive site (on this board or on the Net) that contains a database of researchers who have worked on the Imperial Family and Pretenders?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 04, 2006, 01:58:13 PM
Quote
Thank you for naming your experts, RealAnastasia.

I believe you've mentioned you had talked to   expert on the photograph of FS and photographs of AA on other threads.

I don't think Tania was directing her statement toward your earlier posts on other threads.

Could you repeat here on this thread what the differences were that your expert, Pompeo D'Azzierno,  saw when comparing the one known as FS and the others known as AA?  And, could you give us some background on Pompeo D'Azzierno so we can understand why you regard this person as an expert.

Thanks.

AGRBear


Dear Bear:

                      Excuse me, Bear, for answering your message so late! I only saw it yesterday, when it was very late, so I can answer it now.

                      I will start explaining a little how Pompeo D'Azzierno is, or better said, who HIS family is, since they are experts in photography since four generations now. The first D'Azzierno, Alfredo, was an Italian expert photograph who came to Argentina in the 1870's to open a photographic fashionable studio in Cordoba, the third city of my country. There, Alfredo D'Azzierno had a huge high class group of custommers. He had studied photographie technics in London, Paris, and even the States, before be settled in Argentina. He was a camera genius. This D'Azzierno was the very intimate friend of a branch of my mathernal family , the Malarin-Chaminaud, who were prominent militars and politicians. All their photographies were taken by Alfredo D'Azzierno. Is for that, that I have lots of photographies of my family since the 1870's to the 1930 and so. Generally, people of those times didn't have many pics of their family, but I have so many as the Tsar Yale Univ. colection!  :D In the 1910's, Alfredo D'Azzierno thought even in take artistic photos and he take as a model, my great-grand-aunt Sara, and his own son, Pompeo...They take a beatiful set of "greek gods" and "French Pastorals" with them two. If you like, I'll send you a couple of them just to you to see how a GREAT photograph he was.

           After WWI, the D'Azziernos opened three other photo shops. One in Rosario (the second city of Argentina, where part of my family went to live), other in Buenos Aires (the capital) and other in Mar del Plata, the most known city by the sea, where high society cercles went to spend the summer holidays. They were the high society photographs. When Alfredo D'Azzierno died, it was his son, Pompeo, who takes the place of her father, and after him, her own son, Pompeo Jr. This Pompeo Jr. has now 76 years old, and is considered an authority of photography in our country. He knows all the old and new technics of photography, and is an expert in old pics technics (he likes very much the photographs from the 1870's to the 1920's and knows all about it). He even knows how to take an "old" photography right now, and he took one of me with a friend. He also knows a lot of artistic photos. Since he is such an expert, even the police called him twice to solve the authenticity of a photo.

             My family and theirs always remained in touch. At the 1905 to 1915 summer vacations, we always spend holidays together. So, I could easily get in touch with Pompeo Jr. I said my grand-father that I need to speak with him just to see some photos of "a lady" and we met in a Buenos Aires (where I live) restaurant of Recoleta. I show to him the three pics of FS (alredy posted above) and he said me in no time (I always record in a tape all the interviews I'm having about Anna Anderson's case, I'm translating it roght to you)

-Retouched photos?

-Yes - I answered- but...How do you know that we would speak about retouched photos?

-Only seeing them! -he answered- One of them, the one who seems to be more...athentic, is really a blurred face drawn over the lines of the original pic. It was a common thing since the time of photography was invented to the WWI years. Sometimes, the photos that were badly taken, faded with time, and the face disappeared a little or almost entirely. So, the face was drawn again and the photography re-taken. This was mostly made when this photo was the only one taken of a person who was dead, and the only way to remember her or him was to having this photo. I think the one you are showing to me, is this kind of photo.

-And the other three photos?

-It is quite easy to realize that they are two versions of the first one. However, the face is different.  It is like they had taken another woman's photo and mixed two pics in one. It is not impossible to do. But for those two faces to fit, they retouched the photo again. And this time heavily. Did you see how white this face is? Well: white china was used to erase differences back then. They retouched this face heavily in the eyebrows, the mouth area, the chin, the neck, the hairdo and, of course and most evidentlt, the nose. Look...The nose of the less retouched pic is aquiline or almost aquiline...The other nose, in the two other pics is almost straight.. And look at the hairdo....In the first pic there is a braid over her head...In the other two pics, the braid has simply gone. And look at this: one of the pics is blurred. This is when they took the pic again. The results where not so clear as they surely expected and they re-took the photo until it was clear. The third result is the good one, I think. But, of course, I may be wrong. The only thing that seems odd to me, is that the first pic seems to be from a different woman that the other two. The eyes are different. They look different. The whole expression is another entirely different. And the first woman seems older than the other two pics.

   I asked to him if it was possible , back then, without computers, to mis two photographies in one. He said me that, of course, it was possible. Her grand-father did this many times when he worked for a political magazine. He did satirical political pics mixing photos, and he was renowned for it. He promised me to show me a pic with our current president, Agustin P. Justo, with the body of Prince of Wales and mixed faces of the 1900 president Julio A. Roca, with the former president Carlos Pellegrini.

      After this interesting meeting, we spoke about meeting again with more material to analyse. Only when we are saying good bye, I said to him that he was analising FS photos, the woman who, DNA test had conclusively said, was Anna Anderson, the most famous Anastasia pretender.

    -Really? -he said- Well...But why they retouched these photos so heavily? If she was her, no need of that.

    I explained to him that I have the same doubts. He rolled his eyes and said no more. He only reccommended me to search more AA photos. Perhaps I should find the pic they used to mix-up photographies. Of course, this didn't mean that AA was AN, or that DNA is wrong or right. This only meant that the pics were indeed retouched. I'm now looking for the  answer to the simple question "Why?"

  One more thing: I showed to D'Azzierno the three pics taken by Castelot book, in a good page, not a bad photocopy.

    Other important thing: I don't know if Kurth wrote that it was a retouched pic or not in HIS site. There is a dossier, in Germany, from the Anna Anderson's trials were it was said , conclusively, that there were NOT, not retouched photos of Franziska Schanzkowska.

     RealAnastasia.

P.S: I've not quoted my interview with D'Azzierno here, until today. I've only partially quoted the one with Kuz, where he said that seeing AA, AN and FS photos, he could said that AA and AN were the same person. He let aside the less retouched FS pic indetifying her as a different person, but mistook the other two with ...AN. In Kurth's book it's mentioned that the retouching in the pics made, surely FS more similar to AA...but also to AN.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: stepan on January 04, 2006, 06:28:59 PM
Thanks for all this information RealAnastasia! It´s always interesting to read your posts as you are so engaged.I hope you will write a book with all your info. It´s fascinating whatever we choose to believe.If AA was AN, FS or whatever. So I hope you continue your reasearch!    Stepan
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 04, 2006, 08:56:38 PM
Thank you for your kind words, Stepan! Hope I may write soon a book about AA-FS-AN (or whoever this woman really was) identity question. However, I'm only at the first steps of my research. If I wants to do an accurate work, I MUST go to Europe to read all the evidence of the "dossiers" of her trials, read much more books and interview much more persons and experts. I can not remain with the single opinion of an expert in each subject I'm researching about. I must talk with many of them.

My personal way of work is to make research in each issue, separately . I will explain which are the subjects I'm researching now:

1- AA and AN were or not similar in physical features?
2-It could have been a switch in the DNA test performed in Anna Anderson putative tissues?
3- Is DNA accepted as irrefutable sign of identity?
4- Which importance still have the anthropological, graphological, psychological, forensic and other older scientifical proofs performed to AA, facing the DNA results? Is it possible that DNA would contracdict all the former proofs? Did it happen in other cases of indentity research?
5- Is it possible for a woman to impersonate another without any fail for more than 60 years?
6-It is possible for a person who was not from royal circles, impersonate another who really was whithout being coached?
7- If you copy the way of writting of a person, could a graphologist be fooled  ?
8- If you may speak a little Polish (as FS did) are you able to understand everything a people is saying to you in Russian?
9-How a person show delusions of grandeur in a pathological way?
10-If you get shot and remained alive, and someone helps you and get you away of the execution scene, is it possible to forget all the matter?


 And so on. But I also have more "practical" questions, for example. I showed to a Polish woman the phrases that Harriet Von Rathlef said to Anna Anderson (they are in Peter Kurth book and, of course in the Harriet's one) and asked her if she can understand them. She couldn't.  She said me that it would have been very rare than a woman who spoke Polish would understand Russian short phrases. She would have understood the basis of a long phrase or conversation in Russian, but no short sentences. I also made her to hear the interview to Anna Anderson showed by the television (I've it recorded) and she said me: "No Polish accent. She is not Pole". But the Russian resident that also heard it said me (she is now a very old woman) "She had Leningrad accent.  Older people of former high society spoke like this woman when I was a child. And she also had other influences I can't identify." My brother mother in law, who is German, added: "No German. She is not German".

Interesting if you know that: FS was not Polish. She was born in Pomerania and understand very little Polish. Her native tongue was Katchubian (sort of Slovenian-type language with a lot of Dutch in it) and GOOD GERMAN. The Anna Anderson's German was...just awful!

Well. This is the kind of research I'm doing. It is not easy, and I'm a little tired....but I like it!

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on January 05, 2006, 11:55:31 AM
Enjoying this  discussion.

Unlike many of us sitting at home with or computer and books written by others,  you are actually doing research.  I applaud you.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 05, 2006, 04:50:13 PM
I also applaud RA's interest in the Andersen affair, but asking Polish people and your brother's mother-in-law isn't really research. Ask a trained linguistic authority to listen to recordings of Andersen speaking (they exist), and then to provide detailed explanations as to why (1) she could not have been German and (2) she did not speak Polish, but did speak Russian.

What level of linguistic competence is required to follow the broad outlines of a conversation in another language that the listener does not speak?

How did those with Andersen deduce that she could, in fact, follow the conversation?

How complex were the short sentences which she spoke?

These are questions for experts. RA has provided the credentials for her photographic analyst, and I'm in agreement with his conclusions: the photographs of Schanzkowska that he looked at had been retouched. This is something that was spotted a long time ago.

Stories of our families escaping across the steppes, or what people we know who speak Polish think are interesting, and have absolutely no relevance to the topic. This is not literature, or "belief"; there are recognized scientists in these fields (although I am not sure graphology is a recognized science, but that's just quibbling). Things like the photograph's retouch can be empirically demonstrated and the results duplicated in other lab situations. You know, kind of like DNA. "She behaved like a lady" "people who speak Hochdeutsch cannot be understood by those who speak low German" cannot. As a matter of fact, I speak Hochdeutsch, and have no problem understanding German dialects from all over the country and Austria, and can at least fake my way through some spoken Dutch, so . . . I also know a Polish person who can understand Russian simply because she heard it growing up, and picked up enough German during the war to fake a bit in that language. And this proves? Nothing, except that everybody is different. Let's try for evidence that can't be impeached by the statement "she couldn't have done that because no one I know could". The counter for that is, "Really? I know someone who (1)escaped from Russia in a cart or (b) spoke only German because she was too traumatized to speak Russian." This kind of thing accomplishes nothing from the standpoint of historical discourse.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 05, 2006, 07:54:58 PM
Quote
I also applaud RA's interest in the Andersen affair, but asking Polish people and your brother's mother-in-law isn't really research. Ask a trained linguistic authority to listen to recordings of Andersen speaking (they exist), and then to provide detailed explanations as to why (1) she could not have been German and (2) she did not speak Polish, but did speak Russian.

What level of linguistic competence is required to follow the broad outlines of a conversation in another language that the listener does not speak?

How did those with Andersen deduce that she could, in fact, follow the conversation?

How complex were the short sentences which she spoke?

These are questions for experts. RA has provided the credentials for her photographic analyst, and I'm in agreement with his conclusions: the photographs of Schanzkowska that he looked at had been retouched. This is something that was spotted a long time ago.

Stories of our families escaping across the steppes, or what people we know who speak Polish think are interesting, and have absolutely no relevance to the topic. This is not literature, or "belief"; there are recognized scientists in these fields (although I am not sure graphology is a recognized science, but that's just quibbling). Things like the photograph's retouch can be empirically demonstrated and the results duplicated in other lab situations. You know, kind of like DNA. "She behaved like a lady" "people who speak Hochdeutsch cannot be understood by those who speak low German" cannot. As a matter of fact, I speak Hochdeutsch, and have no problem understanding German dialects from all over the country and Austria, and can at least fake my way through some spoken Dutch, so . . . I also know a Polish person who can understand Russian simply because she heard it growing up, and picked up enough German during the war to fake a bit in that language. And this proves? Nothing, except that everybody is different. Let's try for evidence that can't be impeached by the statement "she couldn't have done that because no one I know could". The counter for that is, "Really? I know someone who (1)escaped from Russia in a cart or (b) spoke only German because she was too traumatized to speak Russian." This kind of thing accomplishes nothing from the standpoint of historical discourse.



You are not beeing serious...WHO can know more about Polish language than a Polish, who speaks currently in Polish, read in Polish and belonged to a Polish Cultural Center? And you must add to all this, that she was Polish Litterature Professor in Poland before she run away the Communist power.

As for the Russian lady, she thaught Russian language in an International Language Academy , here in Buenos Aires. I guess he knows Russian language quite well! Of course, I did comparison between the conversation with the two women. When I had a more little time to do it, I'll post the interviews here to you to see .

My brother mother- in- law, is a cultured woman and not an ordinary housewife that will know only average German. Her husband and she travelled many times to Germany, Poland and other parts of Europe. In their home, they speak german, and my little nephew speaks more German than Spanish. And even if my brother's mother-in-Law were not a cultured woman she is not idiot. I'm Argentine and I can easily said, only hearing another person speak in Spanish if he is Argentine or not, and if he is Argentine, to which province of my country belongs. Not much intelligence is required to do that.

As for my other experts, I will post all their backgrounds if required. Why not? If I took them as experts is for all these people are from University circles and are renowned in personal researchs of National interest. For example, Dr. Otamendi, the Geneticist. He studied a community of indians from the Puna (North-west of Argentina) and discovered, testing their DNA's and comparing it from ones taken from some mummies from there, that almost all of them were related by blood and were descendents of the old race of these mummies.

But even if I will post all these people's backgrounds I'm a little upset. I remember when you asked to Penny Wilson WHICH her academic degrees were...This is really sad. We must not be always thinking that the other is lying or saying inaccurate things. As long as I'm posting here, I NEVER remember me asking other members which were their scientifical degrees or intellectual capacities here. I always trusted all people here. The only thing I remember to have asked is to quote sources and authors.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 05, 2006, 08:04:01 PM
According to her sister Gertrude, Franziska spoke German, a dialect known as Kashoub, but that the family spoke little or no polish.  In Kurth's book Felix Schanzkowska stated his sister spoke good German and a little Polish.  

Several people at the hospital who spoke fluent Russian claimed that Anna Anderson or Frau Tschaikowsky spoke and understood Russian.  

This issue is extremely complex, and the court case, the testimonies, depositions, statements would make interesting reading.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Louis_Charles on January 05, 2006, 10:36:56 PM
Quote


You are not beeing serious...WHO can know more about Polish language than a Polish, who speaks currently in Polish, read in Polish and belonged to a Polish Cultural Center? And you must add to all this, that she was Polish Litterature Professor in Poland before she run away the Communist power.

As for the Russian lady, she thaught Russian language in an International Language Academy , here in Buenos Aires. I guess he knows Russian language quite well! Of course, I did comparison between the conversation with the two women. When I had a more little time to do it, I'll post the interviews here to you to see .

My brother mother- in- law, is a cultured woman and not an ordinary housewife that will know only average German. Her husband and she travelled many times to Germany, Poland and other parts of Europe. In their home, they speak german, and my little nephew speaks more German than Spanish. And even if my brother's mother-in-Law were not a cultured woman she is not idiot. I'm Argentine and I can easily said, only hearing another person speak in Spanish if he is Argentine or not, and if he is Argentine, to which province of my country belongs. Not much intelligence is required to do that.

As for my other experts, I will post all their backgrounds if required. Why not? If I took them as experts is for all these people are from University circles and are renowned in personal researchs of National interest. For example, Dr. Otamendi, the Geneticist. He studied a community of indians from the Puna (North-west of Argentina) and discovered, testing their DNA's and comparing it from ones taken from some mummies from there, that almost all of them were related by blood and were descendents of the old race of these mummies.

But even if I will post all these people's backgrounds I'm a little upset. I remember when you asked to Penny Wilson WHICH her academic degrees were...This is really sad. We must not be always thinking that the other is lying or saying inaccurate things. As long as I'm posting here, I NEVER remember me asking other members which were their scientifical degrees or intellectual capacities here. I always trusted all people here. The only thing I remember to have asked is to quote sources and authors.

RealAnastasia.


Dear RA,

With all due respect, nothing of the information about the Polish woman and your mother-in-law is in your original posts. Thanks for supplying it, after the fact.

You do not remember my asking Penny Wilson about her academic degrees in such a way that was a challenge to her expertise, which I both respect and have defended on these threads; I question whether you can demonstrate that I did it at all, but I categorically state that if I did ask her, it was out of curiousity.  Ms. Wilson and I have corresponded in private messages, and she is aware of the fact that I hold her work in high esteem. So cut that kind of stuff out right now.

You might take the time before you fly off the handle in response to questions to think them through. All of the points I raised in my post are valid. To say that your mother-in-law may not be an expert in linguistics is not to say that she is an uncultured, stupid person, nor did I do so.  I have university degrees, and I am not an expert in linguistics. The nature of the academic endeavor has to do with training. And a minor point --- if there is snobbery being displayed, it is in your post with its reference to "ordinary German housewives."  There is nothing inherent to a housewife that would preclude intelligence or expertise.

As Grand Duke mentions in his post, this is a complicated subject, and it is not being served by this kind of response. The more I re-read your post, the more annoyed I get.

If your goal was to offend me, you have succeeded.

Simon

Quote
Thank you for your kind words, Stepan! Hope I may write soon a book about AA-FS-AN (or whoever this woman really was) identity question. However, I'm only at the first steps of my research. If I wants to do an accurate work, I MUST go to Europe to read all the evidence of the "dossiers" of her trials, read much more books and interview much more persons and experts. I can not remain with the single opinion of an expert in each subject I'm researching about. I must talk with many of them.

My personal way of work is to make research in each issue, separately . I will explain which are the subjects I'm researching now:

1- AA and AN were or not similar in physical features?
2-It could have been a switch in the DNA test performed in Anna Anderson putative tissues?
3- Is DNA accepted as irrefutable sign of identity?
4- Which importance still have the anthropological, graphological, psychological, forensic and other older scientifical proofs performed to AA, facing the DNA results? Is it possible that DNA would contracdict all the former proofs? Did it happen in other cases of indentity research?
5- Is it possible for a woman to impersonate another without any fail for more than 60 years?
6-It is possible for a person who was not from royal circles, impersonate another who really was whithout being coached?
7- If you copy the way of writting of a person, could a graphologist be fooled  ?
8- If you may speak a little Polish (as FS did) are you able to understand everything a people is saying to you in Russian?
9-How a person show delusions of grandeur in a pathological way?
10-If you get shot and remained alive, and someone helps you and get you away of the execution scene, is it possible to forget all the matter?


  And so on. But I also have more "practical" questions, for example. I showed to a Polish woman the phrases that Harriet Von Rathlef said to Anna Anderson (they are in Peter Kurth book and, of course in the Harriet's one) and asked her if she can understand them. She couldn't.  She said me that it would have been very rare than a woman who spoke Polish would understand Russian short phrases. She would have understood the basis of a long phrase or conversation in Russian, but no short sentences. I also made her to hear the interview to Anna Anderson showed by the television (I've it recorded) and she said me: "No Polish accent. She is not Pole". But the Russian resident that also heard it said me (she is now a very old woman) "She had Leningrad accent.  Older people of former high society spoke like this woman when I was a child. And she also had other influences I can't identify." My brother mother in law, who is German, added: "No German. She is not German".

Interesting if you know that: FS was not Polish. She was born in Pomerania and understand very little Polish. Her native tongue was Katchubian (sort of Slovenian-type language with a lot of Dutch in it) and GOOD GERMAN. The Anna Anderson's German was...just awful!

Well. This is the kind of research I'm doing. It is not easy, and I'm a little tired....but I like it!

RealAnastasia.
 

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: jeremygaleaz on January 06, 2006, 01:18:30 AM
Quote
According to her sister Gertrude, Franziska spoke German, a dialect known as Kashoub, but that the family spoke little or no polish.  In Kurth's book Felix Schanzkowska stated his sister spoke good German and a little Polish.  

Several people at the hospital who spoke fluent Russian claimed that Anna Anderson or Frau Tschaikowsky spoke and understood Russian.  

This issue is extremely complex, and the court case, the testimonies, depositions, statements would make interesting reading.


And Gertrude was still alive at the time of the 1994 dna tests, and fully accepted AA as her sister FS. Something she had known for quite a number of years!

 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: jeremygaleaz on January 06, 2006, 02:09:54 AM
Quote
Hi Helen_A,

I'm delighted I could demonstrate the point, but I think you failed to gain my'n, lol. If this is a main point of contention, you had stated also in your post, that you took your photo of FS to 'photo experts', and of what their contention was. You did not however name who your experts were, where the test was conducted, etc. etc. etc., as I had asked you directly. I believe that the request here was to offer 'factual' backed up statements, and so if one is asked, then all should be asked to do the same. Fair enough in terms of checks and balances.

So, please, before you bow out, would you also bring forth your facts before this AP Board so we may all be able to equally evaluate what your experts had to state? Thanks for offering the full allowance of equal balance of 'expert evaluators' to be brought forth, so we all may benefit and draw our own conclusions freely.

Tatiana




And may I bring up a point that to present the credentials of an expert is really kind of pointless in discussions like this? People are simply going to believe what they want to believe anway. I've shown the photograph to several people in the L.A. area, but if I type the name "John Doe" and present him as having, say 20 to 30 years experience in the field, people are still going to dispute it if he's not saying something they want to believe.

Or, like a certain posted who presented herself as an expert in the Russian language when she posted here made the folowing translation error (among many, I'm afraid)...

Uzh gasli v komnatakh ogni * (I Opened a window) ??? was one of Konstantin Konstantinovich's best loved poems . Begun while on holiday in Germany, and composed at Porlovsk in July 1883 it captured the magic...

* The actual translation, from Russian to English, is The lights  dimmned in all the rooms

So, unless a person tries to cultivate the ability to think logically, or don't accept someone's word for it because they are saying something you want to hear,  presenting an expert and their credentials can be pretty meaningless...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Rebecca on January 06, 2006, 03:12:37 AM
Quote
According to her sister Gertrude, Franziska spoke German, a dialect known as Kashoub, but that the family spoke little or no polish.  In Kurth's book Felix Schanzkowska stated his sister spoke good German and a little Polish.



I have little interest in this debate, but I have to point out that you're wrong. Kashoub, also called Kashubian or Cassubian, is not a German dialect. It is a Slavic language, by many Poles considered to be a Polish dialect, by some linguists to be a separate language. If Gertrude Schanzkowska said that her sister spoke Kashoub/Kashubian it would mean that Franziska Schanzkowska spoke a dialect of Polish.

Here you can read about the Kashoub/Kashubian language. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/kashubian.htm
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on January 06, 2006, 05:43:26 PM
Hmmmm,  I remember someone who gave us a link and it talked about it being connected with the "old Dutch" language.

Some think it's a Polish dialect.

I remember someone had pulled out other links....  Let me go look.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on January 06, 2006, 06:31:03 PM
In a locked down thread, on Apr 25th, 2005, 11:22am, jaa wrote:

Quote
I don't know if this helps, but from a few web sites:
 
"There are still many misconceptions concerning the status of Kashubian language. The fact that Kashubia was politically and economically dependent on the German states for a long period of time resulted in some German loan words to be incorporated into the Kashubian language. Therefore, the language is often thought of as having its origins in the Germanic family of languages, which is not true. In reality, Kashubian language belongs to the Western Slavonic family of languages. Apart from the 24 letters of the Latin alphabet, Kashubian language has several additional ones: n, o, ó, o, u, l, z, a, a, e, and e.  
 
(my note: the letters above are as they appear in my browser.)
 
Kashubian language differs considerably from Polish language and people from other parts of Poland do not understand Kashubian at all. It is even more difficult when it comes to pronunciation. Kashubian lexis is also very rich and diversified. The diversity results from the fact that within the Kashubian language there are several dialects and also loan words. It is no wonder then that the Kashubian language is so difficult to understand by people from other parts of Poland."  
http://www.forum-identitaet.de/030720.html
 
"The number of languages listed for Poland is 10."
<snip>
"Kashubian (CASHUBIAN, CASSUBIAN) [CSB] 200,000 (1993 Johnstone). The left bank of the Lower Vistula in north central Poland, near the Baltic coast, west of the Bay of Gdansk, and a narrow strip inland, southwest from Gdynia. Also spoken by possibly 10,000 to 20,000 as second language in Canada, Northern Ontario, around Barry's Bay west of Ottawa. Indo-European, Slavic, West, Lechitic. Dialects: Kashubian PROPER, SLOVINCIAN. Heavily Germanicized. There are transitional dialects between Kashubian Proper, Slovenian, and Polish. Survey needed."
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Pola.html
 
"Kashubian is a member of the West Slavic group of Slavic languages with about 200,000 speakers and used as an everyday language by about 53,000 people. Most Kashubian speakers live in north central Poland in the region of Pomerania on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea between the Vistula and Oder rivers. There are also some Kashubian speakers in Canada.
 
"Kashubian began to emerge as a distinct language during the 14th century. Until recently though, most Polish linguists considered the language a dialect of Polish."
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/kashubian.htm


Wonder why I remember something about it being connected to old Dutch???

We've seem to have gotten why off the topic of Photos of FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 06, 2006, 08:33:00 PM
Anny Scheffer said me that Katchoubians had roots in old Dutch settlers. These Dutchs mixed up with Slavic populations and then their distinctive language is born. I will search more about this people and their language in my faithful "Larousse Illustré". I post it here as soon as I could find the info.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 06, 2006, 08:38:31 PM
Quote

Dear RA,

With all due respect, nothing of the information about the Polish woman and your mother-in-law is in your original posts. Thanks for supplying it, after the fact.

You do not remember my asking Penny Wilson about her academic degrees in such a way that was a challenge to her expertise, which I both respect and have defended on these threads; I question whether you can demonstrate that I did it at all, but I categorically state that if I did ask her, it was out of curiousity.  Ms. Wilson and I have corresponded in private messages, and she is aware of the fact that I hold her work in high esteem. So cut that kind of stuff out right now.

You might take the time before you fly off the handle in response to questions to think them through. All of the points I raised in my post are valid. To say that your mother-in-law may not be an expert in linguistics is not to say that she is an uncultured, stupid person, nor did I do so.  I have university degrees, and I am not an expert in linguistics. The nature of the academic endeavor has to do with training. And a minor point --- if there is snobbery being displayed, it is in your post with its reference to "ordinary German housewives."  There is nothing inherent to a housewife that would preclude intelligence or expertise.

As Grand Duke mentions in his post, this is a complicated subject, and it is not being served by this kind of response. The more I re-read your post, the more annoyed I get.

If your goal was to offend me, you have succeeded.

Simon



Of course I never wanted to offend you, and anyone who reads my posts may said that I never offended you, nor other persons. It was quite the opposite in many ways -I'm not speaking about you, but about other people.

I only said what I think and what I'm finding. I'm not interested in hurting anyone. It is not my style.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Rebecca on January 07, 2006, 02:51:02 AM
Quote
Anny Scheffer said me that Katchoubians had roots in old Dutch settlers. These Dutchs mixed up with Slavic populations and then their distinctive language is born. I will search more about this people and their language in my faithful "Larousse Illustré". I post it here as soon as I could find the info.

RealAnastasia.




According to my sources (including Nationalencyklopedin [Swedish National Encyclopedia], Det lilla Europa. Guide till Europas små folk [The small Europe. A guide to the small nations (i.e. peoples) of Europe] by Ingmar Karlsson who is a Swedish writer) the Kashubians are Slavic. Their presence in the area known as Pomerania (of which Kashubia is a part) is known to be pre-German. The Kashubian language is Slavic with some loanwords from German. Many linguists, especially in Poland, regard it to be a Polish dialect, and some regard it to be a separate language, but its Slavic origin is undoubted, and there is no link to Dutch, which is a Germanic language spoken in the Netherlands and parts of Belgium. Of course Germans did settle in the area during the centuries and there was probably intermarriage, but that still does not change the fact that the Kashubians and their language are of Slavic origin.

In areas like Kashubia bilinguality or even multi-linguality is very common, especially if you belong to the non-dominant ethnicity (in this case Kashubians). Schanzkowska is not a German name, but clearly Slavic.

Anyway, this got terribly off-topic... To stick to the topic at least in some way I should add that I'm always amazed when people say that they think that Anna Anderson looked like Anastasia Nicholaievna. I can not see any resemblance at all between them - they are two different persons. I think it's very obvious, and indeed the DNA-tests showed that Anna Anderson was not Anastasia Nicholaievna.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: etonexile on January 07, 2006, 09:40:58 AM
Sssssh....careful....don't mention the DNA....it's science you know..... :-X
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 08, 2006, 08:40:44 PM
Quote
Sssssh....careful....don't mention the DNA....it's science you know..... :-X


In fact, you MUST mention DNA. We MUST discuss it, and currently it's one of the issues that interest me the more. There is no reason to not discuss it. If we don't discuss DNA we can not be able to reach the truth.

RealAnastasia
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on January 09, 2006, 04:56:53 PM
What I don't understand is how everyone hears the result of DNA tests on a tissue sample called the 'putative Anna Anderson tissue' and assumes this means she was not Anastasia. The scientists themselves never stated that Anna was not Anastasia, they simply stated that if the intestine sample was that of Anna Anderson, then she could not have been Anastasia. How do we know it was not the blood slide that was actually authentic?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Merrique on January 09, 2006, 06:29:53 PM
Any port in a storm. ::)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 10, 2006, 05:28:32 PM
Quote


I have little interest in this debate, but I have to point out that you're wrong. Kashoub, also called Kashubian or Cassubian, is not a German dialect. It is a Slavic language, by many Poles considered to be a Polish dialect, by some linguists to be a separate language. If Gertrude Schanzkowska said that her sister spoke Kashoub/Kashubian it would mean that Franziska Schanzkowska spoke a dialect of Polish.

Here you can read about the Kashoub/Kashubian language. http://www.omniglot.com/writing/kashubian.htm


I was just pointing out the direct similarity of the statements of Felix S. & Gertrude S.  That their sister was fluent in German, and spoke a little Polish, whether it be Kashoub or Polish itself, is a matter to be determined as Gertrude stated Kashoub, and according to the notes of Dr. Woller & Von Rathlef, Felix said Polish.

And that the nurses at Dalldorf stated she spoke and understood Russian well, this is according to the depositions used as source material in Kurth's book Riddle of Anna Anderson.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Versoix on January 11, 2006, 02:56:43 PM
Quote
Only known unretouched photo of FS (right)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/AAFS2.jpg)

The one on the left is AA, the pics were stuck together, so don't anyone accuse me of trying to make comparisons (though I can't imagine why else anyone would want to see a pic of her)

Here is the 'retouched' version (center) I'm sure it was only done because the original is so pale and faded you can't see the features distinctly.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/aafs.jpg)


Go back to the two photos Annie posted 12/26/05. Pay close attention to the shape of the ears in each photo. It looks like they differ, one photo to the other. If they really do differ, then these are two different women.

I'm taking no position on AA's identity. Whoever she was, however, I doubt she was FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Rebecca on January 11, 2006, 03:44:17 PM
Quote

I was just pointing out the direct similarity of the statements of Felix S. & Gertrude S.  That their sister was fluent in German, and spoke a little Polish, whether it be Kashoub or Polish itself, is a matter to be determined as Gertrude stated Kashoub, and according to the notes of Dr. Woller & Von Rathlef, Felix said Polish.

And that the nurses at Dalldorf stated she spoke and understood Russian well, this is according to the depositions used as source material in Kurth's book Riddle of Anna Anderson.



As it has been properly and kindly pointed out by AGR Bear that this discussion is off topic, I will find a more appropriate topic and post my reply there.



Later:
I found a more suitable topic. You can read my reply on the topic AA and the Russian Language.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: etonexile on January 11, 2006, 07:55:33 PM
Quote

Go back to the two photos Annie posted 12/26/05. Pay close attention to the shape of the ears in each photo. It looks like they differ, one photo to the other. If they really do differ, then these are two different women.

I'm taking no position on AA's identity. Whoever she was, however, I doubt she was FS.


AHHHHHHHHHHH...OK...I feel better now...AA was not AN...and was FS....heavy drinking not a plus.... :-*
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on January 11, 2006, 08:38:24 PM
Quote

AHHHHHHHHHHH...OK...I feel better now...AA was not AN...and was FS....heavy drinking not a plus.... :-*


Unlelss I am reading your post incorrectly,  it seems to me that your post is a good  example for our young people to read and learn  how one can show  a lack of respect for people who think differently than you.

If I am wrong,  I'll certainly apologize.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on January 11, 2006, 09:09:04 PM
Quote

Unlelss I am reading your post incorrectly,  it seems to me that your post is a good  example for our young people to read and learn  how one can show  a lack of respect for people who think differently than you.

If I am wrong,  I'll certainly apologize.

AGRBear


Bear, do you really think it's okay to mislead young people by encouraging them to consider AA might still be AN? That is doing them a disservice. It has been proven wrong and is no longer a viable or respectable position. It's not up to opinion like your favorite color.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on January 11, 2006, 09:16:37 PM
Quote

Bear, do you really think it's okay to mislead young people by encouraging them to consider AA might still be AN? That is doing them a disservice. It has been proven wrong and is no longer a viable or respectable position. It's not up to opinion like your favorite color.


When are you going to stop telling people that I think AA was GD Anastasia?
[size=24]I do not think AA is GD Anastasia.  I NEVER have.[/size]

Unlike Annie and a few others,   I have no difficulty showing respect to people who think AA  was GD Anastasia or  to people who are just going through the process of learning all the facts so they can make up their own conclusions.  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: calebGmoney on January 11, 2006, 11:25:12 PM
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Bear, do you really think it's okay to mislead young people by encouraging them to consider AA might still be AN? That is doing them a disservice. It has been proven wrong and is no longer a viable or respectable position. It's not up to opinion like your favorite color.
That is not a disservice at all. What Bear is doing is teaching young people to ask questions instead of accepting everything they are fed as fact. You do not know who Anna Anderson was, nor do any of us.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 12, 2006, 05:17:10 PM
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Bear, do you really think it's okay to mislead young people by encouraging them to consider AA might still be AN? That is doing them a disservice. It has been proven wrong and is no longer a viable or respectable position. It's not up to opinion like your favorite color.


It is a disservice to young people & to history & to debate, when you constantly misstate the views and statements of others and don't use fact or actual source material to back up your own statements.  So if you are worried about a disservice to the youth of America, then you are doing it by the methods you use.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on January 12, 2006, 05:33:27 PM
When I do give my source, you just call 'liars' at them. You can quote "File on the Tsar"a thousand times, it's never going to become true. Just because someone wrote something down doesn't make it true.Then, of course, there is the best source of all so many love to ignore:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/anastasiadna.jpg)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 12, 2006, 06:21:05 PM
Annie,

No where I have I stated I don't believe your sources, I have said I respect your opinion, even though it differs from mine, and stop trying ridicule me about "File On The Tsar", I have not used it as a source once.  I feel it is unreliable.   Your statements again are a disservice to the youth you claim so valiantly to try and educate.
Now back to topic.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on January 12, 2006, 06:43:07 PM
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Annie,

No where I have I stated I don't believe your sources,


Not lately but in the past.

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I have said I respect your opinion, even though it differs from mine,


So if your opinion is different than mine, and mine is that AA was not AN and was FS, what does that make your position?

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and stop trying ridicule me about "File On The Tsar", I have not used it as a source once.  I feel it is unreliable.


I meant ANYONE posting from any book of that type, or any source that supports the chance AN got away and was AN.


 
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Your statements again are a disservice to the youth you claim so valiantly to try and educate.
Now back to topic.


Yeah, you do love twisting my words, but really, the real disservice is to allow or even worse encourage anyone to speculate or consider AA was AN, because it's been proven she wasn't.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Tania+ on January 12, 2006, 09:52:15 PM
I'm very confused about all this continual bringing up of old issues.

We are now in a new year, and though opinions are being stated, there seems to be misquotes, and now a general hit posted to all about posting from a book, plus most presenting posters have offered not only statements but something to back up their statements.

There obviously are two distinct camps of thinking, and that's how it is. But, for both to state what they wish should be allowed, and with what is stated, with truth, the readers of this site, youth to elderly will certainly discern what is transpiring. (if not already)

I don't think there need to be any backbiting. Just share truth and then let us, the readers make the full long term assessments. I think that's fair. If it's in error, we will all find out, sooner or later. None of us really have the last word, to date, do we ? It's terribly discomforting to go through threads where continual bickering continues. It's a real reason of why people sooner or later leave.

No need to get personal, and affrontive. Take it offline.

Back to the thread please !

Tatiana
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 12, 2006, 10:27:15 PM
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Not lately but in the past.


I have said you don't use sources, that is a big issue with me.  

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So if your opinion is different than mine, and mine is that AA was not AN and was FS, what does that make your position?


I have never said she AN.  That is you twisting around words to make them believe what you want to believe I have said.  I don't think she was AN, I have said it, and I don't think anyone survived the massacre.

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I meant ANYONE posting from any book of that type, or any source that supports the chance AN got away and was AN.


Well strangely enough I agree with you on Summers & Mangold.


 
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Yeah, you do love twisting my words, but really, the real disservice is to allow or even worse encourage anyone to speculate or consider AA was AN, because it's been proven she wasn't.


The disservice is that you would not allow any debate on the issue, but then that would end your life to as you would have none, as there would be nothing for you to post about. ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Grand_Duke_Paul on January 12, 2006, 10:31:16 PM
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Go back to the two photos Annie posted 12/26/05. Pay close attention to the shape of the ears in each photo. It looks like they differ, one photo to the other. If they really do differ, then these are two different women.

I'm taking no position on AA's identity. Whoever she was, however, I doubt she was FS.



That is where I lean to.  I surely don't beleive she was AN.  But I am not so sold on FS, as I truly can't see the comparison, the siblings didn't recognize her after two meetings, and she looked different somehow.  Just an opinion.  
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Princess_Marianne on January 24, 2006, 01:15:32 PM
Hi!
Does anybody have a picture or pictures of any persons of Franziska´s family, especially Gertrude? Is there any picture of her other siblings, nephews or nieces?
If you have it, please can you post them here?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: stepan on January 24, 2006, 04:12:34 PM
Penny Wilson posted some photos here on this forum of the Schanzkowsky family, including Gertrude about a year ago. But I think they are no longer here as she deleted many posts. So there are photos in the archives in Germany where I believe she had found them. Perhaps someone has saved the photos and can post them. Or knows where they can be found.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 24, 2006, 04:30:36 PM
Actually these photos should still be out there somewhere because they were posted by me (Penny Wilson did not know how to post photos then), so she would not have been able to delete them. I don't remember which thread they were in, but they can be located if you go through related threads. There were photos of Felix, of Gertrude, and of Gertrude's daughter, FS's niece.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: stepan on January 24, 2006, 05:50:42 PM
Thanks for that information Helen!  Then I suppose the photos are still there in some thread. I don´t remember in which. Interesting!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on January 24, 2006, 05:52:32 PM
Seems like I copied them and put them under a thread about "noses".  I go find them and come back with the URL.

It is:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=anastasia;action=display;num=1115400048;start=0#0

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 25, 2006, 08:21:54 AM
To save you the trouble of thread hopping, here are the photos you asked for, P_M:

Gertrude Schanzkowska Ellerik in late middle age:
(http://img201.exs.cx/img201/8595/gertrude3iz.jpg)  

Maria Juliana: (http://img201.exs.cx/img201/5407/juliana5te.jpg)

Felix Schanzkowski (taken some time in the 1950's):
(http://img39.exs.cx/img39/4383/felix1ls.jpg)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Princess_Marianne on January 25, 2006, 12:14:52 PM
Thank, thank you very much for these pics!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: BaronessSophie on January 25, 2006, 05:11:30 PM
Thank you for posting those pictures. I don't recall ever seeing them before.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on January 25, 2006, 05:52:39 PM
Does anyone have a screen grab still from the NOVA special of Carl Maucher? I'd love to have it posted here. He looks very much like AA did in the 1920's. There is a very strong family resemblance.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Princess_Marianne on January 27, 2006, 12:46:36 PM
I never heard (or saw) about this screen grab, but I´d love to see it, too.
Annie, and when you wrote about "family resemblance", do you think that AA was FS?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 27, 2006, 10:57:22 PM
Thank you for posting again these photos. I know that for the newbies it will be hard to found them , since they were posted so long ago. It was a nice attitude from you.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: jeremygaleaz on January 27, 2006, 11:06:37 PM
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To save you the trouble of thread hopping, here are the photos you asked for, P_M:

Gertrude Schanzkowska Ellerik in late middle age:
(http://img201.exs.cx/img201/8595/gertrude3iz.jpg)  

Maria Juliana (daughter): (http://img201.exs.cx/img201/5407/juliana5te.jpg)

Felix Schanzkowski (taken some time in the 1950's):
(http://img39.exs.cx/img39/4383/felix1ls.jpg)


Maria Juliana was FS's youngest sister :)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Princess_Marianne on January 28, 2006, 05:06:23 AM
Yes, Maria Juliana was FS´s youngest sister. But is there somebody who know more about her life? A lot of people know about Gertrude and her life, but what about Maria Juliana?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 28, 2006, 08:05:52 AM
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Maria Juliana was FS's youngest sister :)


Thanks, I just corrected that. I don't know why I thought she was Gertrude's daughter!

I'll see if I can get the picture of Carl Maucher on here from the Nova documentary at some point...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 28, 2006, 08:06:29 AM
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Yes, Maria Juliana was FS´s youngest sister. But is there somebody who know more about her life? A lot of people know about Gertrude and her life, but what about Maria Juliana?


Why?  ???
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Princess_Marianne on January 28, 2006, 12:01:58 PM
I always heard only about Gertrude and her opinion to Anna. I don´t know that Franziska had other sister. I know about Gertrude, but not about Maria Juliana... and I want to know some informations... please, if somebody know something about her, can you post me it here?
Thanks very much!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on January 28, 2006, 02:41:27 PM
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I never heard (or saw) about this screen grab, but I´d love to see it, too.


One hasn't been made yet. I was hoping someone here who had the equiptment, and the DVD of the NOVA special, could make one and post it for us.


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Annie, and when you wrote about "family resemblance", do you think that AA was FS?


Yes.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on May 03, 2006, 10:12:11 AM
For those who believe AA and FS were the same person then their Timeline should match.

I just bumped up AA's Timeline and, now, I am bumping up  FS's Timeline.

I do not believe AA was GD Anastasia. Nor do I believe we need to tangle up fact with misinformation to prove our case.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 12, 2006, 09:37:10 PM
I don't understand why AA must be AN for this to be an interesting story, and why so many keep pushing this even though it's been proven wrong. When you really look at it, Franziska herself was an interesting story too, like Anastasia. She didn't have to be royalty to have an exciting storyline.

Think about this: Franziska was a 'missing girl' too. She vanished and was at one time assumed dead, but years later DNA tests proved that she had indeed lived a long life as Anna Anderson. Isn't that interesting? We found out for sure what happened to a missing person!

When it was thought Franziska had been killed by Grossman, but there was no body, in a way that was like AN being missing, but Franziska really did turn up alive! Isn't that a good story? (though she didn't escape murder in a basement, she never actually was a victim of Grossman)

So just because AA is FS doesn"t mean we don"t still have a good story! Hers was a very intriguing mystery too, and one that has been solved. Look at it like that, it's fascinating!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: ChatNoir on June 13, 2006, 11:16:17 PM
Annie is right. Fascinating indeed. Here we have a woman who was found almost three weeks before she was reported missing. She jumped into the Landwehr Kanal speaking good German, and came out speaking bad German with an accent so Russian that the Berlin police dubbed her The Unknown Russian Woman. She learned to speak Russian, English and French in record time but forgot how to read German "Fraktur". She changed her hair from dark, almost black, to auburn, her eye color went from non-descript to an unforgettable blue. She shrank a few inches, went down 3 shoe sizes and covered her body with scars. She grew Hallux Valgus on both feet and was so adept at flying under the radar that nobody recognized her from the pictures sent all over Germany by the police. No friends, no former colleagues, no members of the family, no doctors or nurses in the hospitals she went in and out of. She had a baby without anybody knowing that she was pregnant, and she learned in a very short time an amazing lot of facts from the Russian court. She taught herself court etiquette, how to play the piano, paint, play tennis, she was wonderwoman indeed. She even mastered time travel, visiting her old landlady for three days in spring, and then disappeared from the Kleist's apartment for three days in August. A fascinating woman, indeed.

Kind regards
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 09:36:31 AM
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Annie is right. Fascinating indeed. Here we have a woman who was found almost three weeks before she was reported missing.

As I have said many times, the fact that she wasn't reported missing immediately means NOTHING! We're not talking about a time of cell phones and AIM where people from all over the world are in daily contact. We're talking about postwar Europe, and a woman of below average means. In those days, long distance phone calls were rare and expensive, IF your family even had a phone which the Schanskowskas likely didn't (remember phones were not common in rural areas, even in the US, until after wWII) People didn't stay in close contact in those days, they depended on letters, and letters may come weeks or months apart and take a long time in transit. So it is NOT unusual at all that her family didn't realize she was missing for 2-3 weeks. Remember the story of Michael Jordan's father, he was missing, murdered, and his body rotten in a swamp and was found before anyone realized he was missing. He was known to go off on frequent trips alone and not call anyone along the way. And this was 1993, and he was rich!As for the boarding house people, they may have just thought she skipped out to avoid the rent, ran off with some guy and would be back later. It's not a big deal, it happens all the time with boarders and renters. It is NOT unusual she didn't get reported missing right away, and it does add up that she vanished and then AA appeared.

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She jumped into the Landwehr Kanal speaking good German, and came out speaking bad German with an accent so Russian that the Berlin police dubbed her The Unknown Russian Woman. She learned to speak Russian, English and French in record time but forgot how to read German "Fraktur". She changed her hair from dark, almost black, to auburn, her eye color went from non-descript to an unforgettable blue. She shrank a few inches, went down 3 shoe sizes and covered her body with scars.

ALL this is SPECULATIVE and he said she said which even contradicts itself at times and none of it can be proven. The German speaking employees likely mistook her Polish accent as Russian!
So this person said her hair or eyes were this color and another said something else. I don't think you really fathom how UNRELIABLE all these personal accounts are. I know people who met a star and all of them reported his height different. Some people call all dark or brown hair 'black hair.' And of course a family not wanting to give her away and get her in trouble, or be responsible themselves, aren't going to lead a trail to their door. People who stand next to a man who gets disentigrated in a grenade explosion do not end up with 'no scars.' And even so those scars all over AA/FS are much more consistent with grenade schrapnel than what AN would have had. By some accounts AN died only from a bayonet or gunshot to the head, her body wouldn't even have been marked like that!


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She grew Hallux Valgus on both feet

It's hardly a rare or unique condition. FS/AA probably got it from standing on her feet in the factory.

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and was so adept at flying under the radar that nobody recognized her from the pictures sent all over Germany by the police.No friends, no former colleagues, no members of the family, no doctors or nurses in the hospitals she went in and out of.

The picture was faded and bad, remember? This is why it had to be 'retouched' to clarify the features. Also you have to consider she wasn't famous or well known. She was a nobody, so nobody recognized her.

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She had a baby without anybody knowing that she was pregnant,

This happens all the time, even today. You still hear about teenage girls having babies in bathrooms and throwing them in the trash and all their friends and family never even knew they were pregnant. In those days, an illegitimate child was a disgrace, so NATURALLY a girl in trouble would not want her family or friends to know. She may have even lost the baby or got an abortion before it was full term. My grandmother lost a child at 4 months that left traces as a full term pregnancy. A doctor later told her he could tell she'd had 5 children, but only 4 were full term. So, sorry, no, her secret pregnancy is NOT a big deal.

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and she learned in a very short time an amazing lot of facts from the Russian court. She taught herself court etiquette, how to play the piano, paint, play tennis, she was wonderwoman indeed.

Not hard to do when you have supporters who can tell you all about it! And who's to say FS never played piano or tennis? Those things are not restricted to royalty to know!

 
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She even mastered time travel, visiting her old landlady for three days in spring, and then disappeared from the Kleist's apartment for three days in August. A fascinating woman, indeed.

So someone was mistaken about seeing her. This happens in missing persons cases ALL THE TIME EVEN NOW! I saw something on TV recently about a sighting in a Vegas casino of a missing young woman. Her family said it was her on the tape, then weren't so sure.

This is a BIG FACTOR to be considered by all:

PEOPLE ARE HUMAN AND MAKE MISTAKES ALL THE TIME!! This is why all this he said she said stuff is really not evidence at all! Even in court cases people swear things that turn out to be wrong!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 09:49:41 AM
A PLEA:

Can we PLEASE have ONE thread to discuss FRANSISKA'S STORY on its own without it turning into another AA/AN thread? Even though AA/FS was not AN, her story is still very fascinating. Can't we discuss it from that angle without more crap about AA being AN drug into it? There are plenty other threads in which to do that. Thank you.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Penny_Wilson on June 14, 2006, 10:36:52 AM
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Annie is right. Fascinating indeed. Here we have a woman who was found almost three weeks before she was reported missing. She jumped into the Landwehr Kanal speaking good German, and came out speaking bad German with an accent so Russian that the Berlin police dubbed her The Unknown Russian Woman. She learned to speak Russian, English and French in record time but forgot how to read German "Fraktur". She changed her hair from dark, almost black, to auburn, her eye color went from non-descript to an unforgettable blue. She shrank a few inches, went down 3 shoe sizes and covered her body with scars. She grew Hallux Valgus on both feet and was so adept at flying under the radar that nobody recognized her from the pictures sent all over Germany by the police. No friends, no former colleagues, no members of the family, no doctors or nurses in the hospitals she went in and out of. She had a baby without anybody knowing that she was pregnant, and she learned in a very short time an amazing lot of facts from the Russian court. She taught herself court etiquette, how to play the piano, paint, play tennis, she was wonderwoman indeed. She even mastered time travel, visiting her old landlady for three days in spring, and then disappeared from the Kleist's apartment for three days in August. A fascinating woman, indeed.

Kind regards
Chat Noir

There's just something about that Berlin water!  ::)   ;)

~Penny
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on June 14, 2006, 04:37:29 PM
Let's talk about FS's life before the "Berlin water" on 18 Feb. 1920.

Do we have a the names of the different asylums in which FS was before Feb of 1920?

AGRBear


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 05:34:00 PM
I mean let's discuss FS's story in the context that she was AA and not AN, because that's the truth. If the 'what if she was AN' stuff keeps creeping back in, it takes it off track, as all threads go. Just for once, can't we discuss AA as FS, and how interesting it was that a missing girl was found after all? (FS!)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on June 14, 2006, 05:54:38 PM
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I mean let's discuss FS's story in the context that she was AA and not AN, because that's the truth. If the 'what if she was AN' stuff keeps creeping back in, it takes it off track, as all threads go. Just for once, can't we discuss AA as FS, and how interesting it was that a missing girl was found after all? (FS!)

I agree, AA has been discussed to distraction, FS is an interesting character and I think a good topic. A great thread idea, Annie!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: ChatNoir on June 14, 2006, 08:21:33 PM
Annie, it was NOT her family who reported her missing, it was the Wingenders. "She left without leaving a new address." And there was indeed enought Russian emigrees in Berlin to recognize Russian language and Russian accents. Besides, Europeans are much more schooled in foreign languages than Americans.
The picture that the police took was certainly clear enough to show her face in profile and en face, so that nobody recognized her, is more than strange.
And WHO are these people who taught her all she knew?
AN/FS disappeared from the Kleist's apartment in August of 1922, and Doris Wingender said she came to see her in spring.
And as for the family being afraid of acknowledging her, just read the letter from Gertrude's daughter, Margarete, sent to her uncle, Felix Schanzkowski, on May 16, 1959, in which Franziska’s niece urges Franziska’s brother to "recognize" Anna Anderson and realize her potential for the family:  "It's not everyone who can say he has a full-blooded sister whom powerful and important people have mistaken for decades as the daughter of the tsar!"

Kind regards,.
Chat Noir
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 14, 2006, 08:33:38 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/banghead.gif) (http://www.boomspeed.com/kittylove/bawling.gif)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on January 18, 2007, 11:17:49 AM
Does anyone have any information about FS and Felix's mother's family,  the Wiscek's?

I am trying to trace the female lineage.

Thanks.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on March 09, 2007, 09:19:59 AM
For years, the family was afraid of being held somehow responsible for FS/AA's outrageous actions and legal claims. But now that it's over, and she's dead, and she's been proven a fake, is there some way the family can profit from her story? They have proof she was their relative, so surely the 'next of kin' can sell the rights? And can they secure the rights to all books, movies and plays about AA made AFTER the DNA tests proved her to be their relative? I wonder if they've even thought of this! Zack, do you know?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: scarlett_riviera on March 09, 2007, 05:24:33 PM
How frustrating...
I agree with Annie. Is it possible to keep this thread strictly about AA/FS?  ;D It would be awfully nice if anyone can share more information about the life of FS, I'm very interested in her. According to Massie's research, her family descended from the lower Polish nobility. Her father was impoverished, however, and a bit of a drunk. I understand that she was engaged at some point in her life, but the war claimed the life of her fiance (ack- I don't have the book here, so I'm merely relying on my poor memory!).
I also saw FS's photograph on Peter Kurth's website. That photo alone can convince me that she's AA! ...Or maybe it's just me? But anyway, she looked quite pretty on that photo. It would be also interesting to know if she and her fiance had a healthy, loving relationship. I hope to God they did; her life was lonely enough as it was.  :( At least she had a friend in her brother, right?...well, before she morphed into a grand duchess. I know that her brother was her favorite- does anyone have more info on him? Did he have any children? Someone ought to write a book about her. :(
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on March 09, 2007, 06:14:29 PM
How frustrating...
I agree with Annie. Is it possible to keep this thread strictly about AA/FS?  ;D It would be awfully nice if anyone can share more information about the life of FS, I'm very interested in her. According to Massie's research, her family descended from the lower Polish nobility. Her father was impoverished, however, and a bit of a drunk. I understand that she was engaged at some point in her life, but the war claimed the life of her fiance (ack- I don't have the book here, so I'm merely relying on my poor memory!).

Yes I heard all this too. Her father died young from drinking. Her fiancee was killed in the war, the same time she was injured in the grenade factory explosion.

Quote
I also saw FS's photograph on Peter Kurth's website. That photo alone can convince me that she's AA! ...Or maybe it's just me? But anyway, she looked quite pretty on that photo.

We've had this on so many threads, but if you haven't seen them, here you go:

AA left, FS right- same person!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/WuvDaNick/AAFS2.jpg)


Quote
It would be also interesting to know if she and her fiance had a healthy, loving relationship. I hope to God they did; her life was lonely enough as it was.  :( At least she had a friend in her brother, right?...well, before she morphed into a grand duchess. I know that her brother was her favorite- does anyone have more info on him? Did he have any children? :(

I don't think she was that close to her family in the end, maybe just that one brother. Sadly I don't think there was any happiness in Franziska's life, and that's why she wanted to kill herself, then assume someone else's identity.

Quote
Someone ought to write a book about her.

I'd love a book about FRANZISKA and how she was AA, NOT another book claiming AA was AN, please! ::)

But again, since everyone knows AA was FS now, I am sure her family should be able to claim the rights to her story, and get royalties from everything done on her since the DNA tests proved her identity, books, movies, plays, specials, etc.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on March 11, 2007, 01:14:27 AM
New Timeline List - 18 Aug 2005   
 
>>>1896<<<  
Date  of birth:  
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.  

>>>ca 1902/3  to ca 1912<<<
FS attended school and for some of the time or all of the time was in "Bytow, quite some distance from her family's house"
 
>>>1914<<<  
"In 1914, shortly before the outbreak of the First World War, Franziska, at age eighteen, left the Polish provinces for Berlin. She worked as a waitress, met a young man, and became engaged. Before she could marry, her fiance was called up for military service. Franziska began working in a munitions factory."  
 
>>>1916<<<  
 
___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front."  
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane  
 
>>>19??<<<  
"Franziska was declared "not cured, but not dangerous," and discharged. She was taken in, almost as a charity case, by Frau Wingender, who gave her a room of her own, Incapable of working long periods, Franziska was in and out of sanatoria; in between, she remained bedridden at the Wingender's apartment, complaining of headaches, swallowing pills, and reading history books from the local library"  
 
1919  
Around Christmas time [25 Dec 1919] FS visited her family  
 
>>> 1920<<<  
17 Feb. 1920 brother Felix received a birthday card from FS  
 
Date reported missing:  
9 March 1920:  "...Berlin police were duly informed by the Wingenders, on March 9, that she had 'left, leaving no address.'"
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: scarlett_riviera on March 12, 2007, 02:36:33 AM
Thanks for the timeline! Her fiance's death must have affected her greatly. :(
I do wonder if anyone will ever be interested in making a movie about her life, before she became AA and all. I don't know if that will be more marketable than "the riddle of AA", though. Still, there should be something out there about her- a documentary, a book- anything? I haven't seen anything from her descendants, except that very short interview on Massie's book.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on March 13, 2007, 09:47:53 AM
You are welcome.

I am noat sure about Jeremy's statement that FS was actually declare "insane":
 

>>___ ___ 1916:  " In 1916, the young man" [FS], "was dating was killed on the western front." 
19 Sept 1916:  According to jeremy, this was the date FS was declared insane <<

I believe that some posters have told us that she was not declared insane but merely placed in an asylum due to a "nervous breakdown" after her boyfriend was killed.

Does anyone know where Jeremy found his information?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on April 18, 2007, 11:12:05 AM
I have two questions really and maybe they should go in separate threads; if so, please advise.  Forgive me if either have already been discussed - I have read as many of the old posts as I can and also done a search, but can't find any detail.


1.    Is there any verifiable information about the purported fiance?    Any thoughts as to whether or not he actually existed?   I don't know where the story came from and I have never seen him named. 

2.    How many asylums was FS in prior to her disappearance and how detailed are the records?   What was the specific diagnosis and do you think that if she was assessed today she would be classified as "insane" rather than, say,clinically depressed or having a nervous breakdown?  (Any psychiatrists out there?)    Certainly in Britain  as late as the early 1950s there were women who were committed for all sorts of shocking reasons including so-called immorality - eg  because they had an illegitimate baby.  (This could also relate to the debate about whether or not FS had a baby?)


Thanks

Liz
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: zackattack on April 18, 2007, 08:14:34 PM
I have two questions really and maybe they should go in separate threads; if so, please advise.  Forgive me if either have already been discussed - I have read as many of the old posts as I can and also done a search, but can't find any detail.


1.    Is there any verifiable information about the purported fiance?    Any thoughts as to whether or not he actually existed?   I don't know where the story came from and I have never seen him named. 

2.    How many asylums was FS in prior to her disappearance and how detailed are the records?   What was the specific diagnosis and do you think that if she was assessed today she would be classified as "insane" rather than, say,clinically depressed or having a nervous breakdown?  (Any psychiatrists out there?)    Certainly in Britain  as late as the early 1950s there were women who were committed for all sorts of shocking reasons including so-called immorality - eg  because they had an illegitimate baby.  (This could also relate to the debate about whether or not FS had a baby?)


Thanks

Liz


Hi Liz

You should really contact Maurice Paul Remy,he keeps an archive on FS, as well as  members of Francisska's family, and the film maker Julian Nott. I gave all the contact info I have on them  to the FA. Ask him and  he might be able to help you in that area. Good luck! 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on April 19, 2007, 06:46:03 AM
Thanks.  I was specifically wondering if there was any published material I could access.   I have just ordered the Wilson/King book but haven't read much on the whole subject of the Romanovs for a few years so wasn't sure what was out there now.  My interest has lain dormant for a few years but now I have woken up again!

Liz
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Penny_Wilson on April 19, 2007, 06:43:37 PM
Philip Remy's 1998 documentary is called Anastasia -- Zarentochter oder Hochstaplerin?.  Copies can occasionally be found on amazon.de, and as far as I know, it's German-language only.  Mine is in German anyway.

I first saw the film a few years ago, on a visit to Philip in Munich -- it was interesting to watch it with the film-maker sitting right next to me.  He kept stopping it to expand on the story and explain his production decisions.  I learned a hell of a lot about the Schanzkowskis and Franziska in days I spent with Remy -- he kindly allowed me to copy his archive for my research with Greg King (which is still on-going for the next book) and told me lots of traveller's tales about his adventures in research, but I can't recall if he ever mentioned the name of Franziska's fiance.  I'll have to look through the papers that he gave me, but I don't think it's there.  It's certainly the sort of detail that I would remember, if I had ever heard it.

~Penny
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on April 23, 2007, 09:54:20 AM
Penny, thanks for that. 

I have just started  learning German (I work for a German company - but in London) so maybe I'll wait a bit until I know more and then try and get a copy!

Am now about a third of the way through your book - absolutely fascinating and full of so much detail I didn't know.    What a huge amount of work you and Greg must have done to get all this information out to the rest of us.

Liz
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Lemur on April 24, 2007, 09:23:05 AM
One of the problems with research on FS is that so many writers want to keep the AA=AN myth alive (because it's maybe more fun and interesting?) I'm afraid hard evidence on FS may have been lost or even supressed over time, especially if it were damning to AA's claim.  We will probably never know the entire story.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 09, 2007, 03:45:05 AM
Perhaps someone who is Polish reading this can answer the questions about the name.  I know "ski" means "son of" but is their a meaning to "owska"?

"ski" does NOT exactly (literally) mean "son of" - it is strictly speaking a suffix which makes a possessive adjective from a noun and therefore can mean "son of". For example - lets take one of the most popular polish surnames "Kowalski". It's made by adding "ski" suffix to the verb "Kowal" (with means "blacksmith"). So we can translate adjective "kowalski" as "sth conserning or connected with a blacksmith". We can predicate "kowalski" of things - e.g. "młot kowalski" means "a smith's hammer" ("młot"="hammer"). When we talk about people esp. children "kowalski" would mean "son of the blacksmith (e.g. the balcksmith from our village)". So "Adam Kowalski" could be translated as "Adam - a son of the blacksmith".

Siffix "ska" is simply a feminine form, witch makes an feminine adjective from the noun. So "kowalska" also means "sth conserning or connected with a blacksmith" and could be predicated of things - eg. "sztuka kowalska" means "the Blacksmith's Art" (sztuka=art - in Polish "art" is a feminine noun). Similary, "Anna Kowalska" could be translated as "Anna - a daughter of the blacksmith".

Sometimes suffixes "ski" or "ska" can't be added so simply to the noun (for grammatical reasons), and takes form of "owski" or "owska".

Lets go back to FS: Szanckowska is a name made by adding "owska" suffix to the root "szanck" (or "schanzk" in german transliteration). Of course, if we want to determine the root that name, we have to determine the right form of it (Schanzkowska, Schankowska, Chankowska, Schenckowska, Czenkowski etc.)

Quote
 Breaking the name down would be "Schenck" or "Schansk" or Scanko with the root word in Old German meaning Scenko.... ?

"Szanck" ("szan-" is pronounced just like english "shun") sounds German not Slavic, so it seams to me very probable, that it really HAS Old German root, but I'm not competent to say anything more about it. In Polish there's no such noun as "szanc" or "szank". There is a noun "szynk" (dated word which means "drink bar" or "drinking den") - I know a person whose name is "szynkowska". On the other hand ther was a well-known (in Poland) graphic artist whose name was Szancer, but it's a German name.

By the way - I've not met anyone whose name was "Sasnowski", but surname "Sosnowski" is very common in Poland (it mean "sth conserning or connected with a pine" -- it could be the name of a lumberjack family).
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 09, 2007, 04:35:52 AM
Take a look at the Polish forms and set aside the Spanish, and other countries etc..  Example: SZWANKOWSKI

You can meet many people in Pomerania whose name is Szwankowski - maybe that's the original form of FS's surname...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 09, 2007, 05:23:05 AM
If the root word is Old German, than yes, the family was German.

I can't agree with you. If the root word is Old German th family COULD be German, but also COULD be a Polish family. The root of the name could had been translated into German by Prussian administration. In Poland there's a well-known case of Józef Tischner (polish philosopher) family name. His grandfather's name was Stolarz (eng. "carpenter"). When he joined the Austro-Hungarian Army, Austiran clerk translated his surname into German "Tischler"  (because of misspelling it later became TischNer). Similar events could happen in Pomerania...

Quote
However, I can not say for sure because I don't know Polish and there might well be a word in Polish which would be the "root" and mean something entirely different.

As I previously siad it means nothing...

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 09, 2007, 05:40:53 AM
Quote
If you can't find a family in records in this village Bororwihlas...
...
 Do we by any chance know what the population of this village was back in the late 1800's/early 1900's? If it was relatively small, I bet that cousins often intermarried... Is 'Bororwihlas' the correct spelling? It doesn't look right...

You're absolutely right! It doesn't look right :)

"Bororwihlas" is absolutely wrong. Correct polish spelling is: "Borowy Las", and Kashubian: "Bòròwë Las".

If you want to know where it is, use google maps (54° 17' 55'' N 17° 43' 52'' E)
http://wikimapia.org/#y=54298611&x=17731111&z=12&l=28&m=h

The village is small even today (144 peple in 2006) but I can't say anything about it's population in the late 1800's/early 1900's...
 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 09, 2007, 07:00:49 AM
>>>1896<<<  
Date  of birth:  
16 Dec 1896 "in Bororwihlas, a small town in Kashubia, one of the Polish Provinces at that time forming part of the German Empire."  When a German Province it was part of Pomerania-Kasubia.  See on modern map the area near Pozan [Posen]  / Wladyslowowo, Poland.  

See my message on Borowy Las:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,620.msg257373.html#msg257373

Quote
>>>ca 1902/3  to ca 1912<<<
FS attended school and for some of the time or all of the time was in "Bytow, quite some distance from her family's house"

Bytów is about 13 miles (21 km) from Borowy Las (as the crow flies)...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 11, 2007, 02:58:24 AM
Schanzkowska is not a German name, but clearly Slavic.

Do you have arguments to support that? Schanzkowska doesn't seem Slavic for me. Of course it has polish suffix (-owska) but the root sound german...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 16, 2007, 04:09:54 AM
"ski" does NOT exactly (literally) mean "son of" - it is strictly speaking a suffix which makes a possessive adjective from a noun and therefore can mean "son of". For example - lets take one of the most popular polish surnames "Kowalski". It's made by adding "ski" suffix to the verb "Kowal" (with means "blacksmith"). So we can translate adjective "kowalski" as "sth conserning or connected with a blacksmith". We can predicate "kowalski" of things - e.g. "młot kowalski" means "a smith's hammer" ("młot"="hammer"). When we talk about people esp. children "kowalski" would mean "son of the blacksmith (e.g. the balcksmith from our village)". So "Adam Kowalski" could be translated as "Adam - a son of the blacksmith".

I must add something to my previous statement. Adding "-ski" suffix is not a regular way of making an adjective in Polish. "-ski" adjective COULD have a possessive meaning when it's made from a name of an individual or a profession. But MAINLY it's made form names of PLACES. E.g surname "Zamojski" derive from "Zamość" (one of polish towns).

Mayby "Schanzt" is a name of a place and could tell us something about the origin of the family? (I'm only speculating...)

Quote
"Bororwihlas" is absolutely wrong. Correct polish spelling is: "Borowy Las", and Kashubian: "Bòròwë Las".

As far as I remember "Borowihlas" (without second "r") was a germanized form (phonetically written) of "Borowy Las", but "Borowihlas" does not mean anything in German while in Polish "Borowy Las" means 'an impenetrable/ancient coniferous forest'.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on May 16, 2007, 11:12:13 AM
The names of residence is written down by officals as the name sounds to them when a villager pronouces it.  Remember,  many villagers were not schooled before the 1830s unless they were from a wealthy family.   Therefore, if the  person registering the name would spell it as it would be written in Prussian.   

Local churches, in the case it was Roman Catholic,  the parish priest or his  assistances would write the name in the birth, death,  baptismal records and were usually more familiar with the spelling of a family name if from that area.

If you have used "soundex" for names,  you already  know all the various spelling one family name can have.  If you have never used "soundex" ,  go to google,  type in  "soundex"  and type in Schanzkowski.    On one of these threads,  I listed the huge number of different spellings.

One has to know the family to know their roots.   

Remember, surnames for everyone are a recent invention (1800s) brought on by  new laws in various countries.  Most people were known by  "group family"  / "clans" /   place they came from/  occupational names...  All  Smiths are not related, for an example.

Adding "ski"  could have occured at any time for  personal reasons or by a local priest who was Polish ....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on May 16, 2007, 11:54:11 AM
Schanzkowska may appear to be Polish  to some,  but that is an assumption ONLY.    Names are  one  discussion and family origins are not always  the same as what the name alone makes you assume.

See other threads which are also talking up the names Schanzkowska and Wiscek in this section.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 16, 2007, 03:19:51 PM
The names of residence is written down by officals as the name sounds to them when a villager pronouces it.  Remember,  many villagers were not schooled before the 1830s unless they were from a wealthy family.   Therefore, if the  person registering the name would spell it as it would be written in Prussian.

I agree...

Quote
If you have used "soundex" for names,  you already  know all the various spelling one family name can have. 

Soundex does NOT give you variuos SPELLING of the SAME name! It'a an indexing system of DIFFERENT names which SOUND simmilar in English (!)...

Quote
Remember, surnames for everyone are a recent invention (1800s) brought on by  new laws in various countries.  Most people were known by  "group family"  / "clans" /   place they came from/  occupational names...  All  Smiths are not related, for an example.

Adding "ski"  could have occured at any time for  personal reasons or by a local priest who was Polish ....

Of course...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 16, 2007, 03:27:58 PM
Schanzkowska may appear to be Polish to some,
Not to a Pole... ;)

Quote
Names are  one  discussion and family origins are not always  the same as what the name alone makes you assume.

I do not assume that (lets take for example Ashkenasian Jewish names which sound German...). I only said that name COULD tell us something about the roots of the family, esp when the surname derive from a name of a place...
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2007, 09:15:18 AM
I was making a broad statement to the majority of posters.

 EPHMOC,  my remarks were not directed at you.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

AGRBear

 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on May 17, 2007, 09:51:21 AM
Names that sound the same in "soundex" often  help genealogist,  like myself.    There are "soundexes"  in all lanuages, not just English.
And,  you are right,  none are perfect.   It's just another tool to  use when other avenues end up in dead end zones.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: EPHMOC on May 17, 2007, 01:14:12 PM
Names that sound the same in "soundex" often  help genealogist,  like myself.

They may help but could also mislead... Most names that sound simmilar are NOT related. Both San Jose and Szanckowska are S 522 - it would be ludicrous to suppose that they have same root... ;)

Quote
    There are "soundexes"  in all lanuages, not just English.

Yes, but I thought that you used the english version... Anyway, San Jose and Szanckowska does NOT sound the same or even similarly to me... ;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Bob_the_builder on May 18, 2007, 07:31:58 PM
Assuming AA was FS, I think she was MORE interesting than Anastasia, who died at 17 and didn't have the chance to grow into a full woman yet. AA was fascinating, causing so many people to wonder, "What if it's really her?" In fact, unlike ANY of the other claimants, AA had at least 5 huge Hollywood films made about her, and dozens of books written about her even now! In fact, as late as 2007 there was a new AA book called, "A Romanov Fantasy: life at the court of Anna Anderson" by Frances Welch. I don't think the legend of Anastasia's escape would have been nearly as famous nor do I think many of us would even know who Anastasia was without Anna Anderson.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 28, 2007, 05:55:45 PM
This is another theory I want to put to bed. First, we do know that because of DNA the chances are extremely high that AA was the missing FS, so of course she wasn't murdered. But here is evidence that makes it less likely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Grossman_%28Murderer%29

Grossman was arrested in Aug. 1921, and found with a fresh corpse in his room. There were bloodstains to prove he'd killed at least 3 other victims, but no one knows for sure how many he killed and over how much time. He was also known to sell meat on the black market, in those days when Berlin was so bankrupt andin political turmoil, and it's believed that some or all of it may have been ground human meat from his victims, who were said by neighbors to be 'destitute young women.'

So you might think FS fits that category, BUT...there isn't one stitch of evidence connecting her to him, except one name that starts with an S in his diary that some try to say is Schanskowska misspelled, but it's really nothing like it. No one saw her have any contact with him.

Here's the biggest thing that makes me discount it (besides the DNA) He wasn't caught until the late summer of 1921, and FS disappeared in early 1920. There is no evidence he was killing a year and half before he was caught. From the official reports, his rampage seemed to be fairly recent, maybe just a few weeks in the summertime of 1921 (like Son of Sam's summer of '77)

Now it's said that the Berlin police told FS's family in Aug. 1921 that FS was likely murdered by Grossman. Because they were unable to search properly at the time of her disappearance due to the uprising in the city of Berlin, and limited funding of a crumbling government structure, the case remained unsolved. So when they found this Grossman guy, what they probably did was go back and find all the missing woman cases and assume he must have killed them and write them off so they could close the cases and move on. However, I find it interesting that this issue was never brought up in the AA trial to try to counteract the claim that AA was FS, so I do wonder how 'officially' they had her declared dead. It was probably just a theory that was never proven, and it turned out to be disproven. But how convenient for a woman who didn't want to be found, who wanted to live another life, to have everyone think she was dead? It helped her charade continue.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on June 28, 2007, 09:04:53 PM
When  AP changed over to the new format,  many of the quotes no longer can be linked.  Here is a quote from someone which I had posted in one of my posts.  I believe it is something Penny Wilson wrote:

>>[in part]....
Here is some of the Grossman dossier I have been able to gather from other threads, and from the web.  There isn't a great deal out there yet.
 .....There are copies of Grossmann's trial transcripts -- or the German version thereof -- extant in at least one town in Germany.  Berlin, as we all know, was hideously bombed by the Allies at the end of WWII, and many, many buildings were destroyed along with their contents.  One of these buildings stored Berlin police records and archives; however, then as now, there were people interested in the phenomenon of what came to be known as serial killing.  At least one of these people, a doctor of psychology, had copies of documents from Grossmann's trial -- and his descendants allowed Greg and I access.
 
German court procedure is a little different from that of the US.  Here, a killer might be responsible for ten or twelve murders, but will only be charged with one or two so that there are still live cases against him should anything go wrong with the prosecution.  Grossmann's trial was not like that.  He was charged with a list of murders, some of them identified only by the name he placed in his own diary.  The evidence given was short and sweet and fairly d**ning -- he was caught red-handed (literally) with the semi-dismembered body of a young woman in his "shop."  There was also the evidence of his own hand, in the form of his diary.  Evidence was given in several specific victim cases, but not in all of them.  In the list of victims he was accused and convicted of murdering was the name "(female) Saznovski."  
 
This was the individual whom the Berlin police believed was Franziska Schanzkowska.  In the course of their lengthy investigation, in which they identified victims known by only one name -- like Saznovski -- information included in missing persons reports were cross-matched with the victimology, including what Grossmann had written in his diary.  What was written about Saznovski was sufficient for the Berlin police -- a highly regarded professional body -- to conclude that Saznovski was Franziska.  They broke the news to the Schanzkowsky family, and they laid Franziska to rest until 1927 when the Berliner Nachtausgabe disinterred her. <<

Let me repeat this line:

>>In the list of victims he was accused and convicted of murdering was the name "(female) Saznovski.

If the Berlin police had no problem understanding why Grossmann spelled "Schanzkowska"  as  "Saznovski"  then I don't understand why Annie continues to harp about the spelling.   Even after I explained in full detail and gave the link to "soundex" and to the name "Schanzkowska"  where one could find the name spelled many many different ways,  she still continues to repeat  her  lack of knowledge as if it were fact.  Having been a genealogist  since the late 1970s,  I can agree with the spelling made by a German who heard the name "Schanzkowsky".     If you look at old books and new books you will find the name spelled  in different ways when they are referring to FS.

We're just rehashing facts over and over.   As far as I know,  we don't have anything new to really talk about so,  if you haven't  read the thread,  I sugest  you do.  There might be something you haven't read on other threads.

AGRBear


Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 28, 2007, 09:16:39 PM
A poster earlier in the thread, I believe it was Lanie, said her Grandmother was Polish and she said the names were not similar at all.

And where do you keep getting this glowing description of the Berlin police as 'highly professional' and such? We have already established that the country and the city were in dissaray at the time, and anything funded by the government was likely suffering from lack of funding and organization.

But of course, none if it matters, since we know that AA was FS, and therefore not murdered by Grossman.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2007, 10:33:26 AM
A poster earlier in the thread, I believe it was Lanie, said her Grandmother was Polish and she said the names were not similar at all.

And where do you keep getting this glowing description of the Berlin police as 'highly professional' and such? We have already established that the country and the city were in dissaray at the time, and anything funded by the government was likely suffering from lack of funding and organization.

But of course, none if it matters, since we know that AA was FS, and therefore not murdered by Grossman.

We are not talking about   a  Polish serial killer,  we are talking about a German writing down a name as he heard it, so, that is the difference which you refuse to understand.

Where am I getting this glowing description of the Berlin police dept.?    Again, it is evident to me and others that you have not  research the subject of the history of the Police during the Weimer Republic  time slot in the history of Germany.   Nor have you taken the time to look up the history of criminology in Europe / world....

Please,  be carefull  when you spread a political blanket over Berlin's  police and how it was functioning from the time FS was listed as a "missing person"  and  their decision that  FS was a victim of  Grossmann.

As for the DNA,  this  is a subject which has it's own threads where you and others can discuss the  FS and AA  as being the same person or not.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 29, 2007, 01:24:12 PM
Quote
Please,  be carefull  when you spread a political blanket over Berlin's  police and how it was functioning from the time FS was listed as a "missing person"  and  their decision that  FS was a victim of  Grossmann.

If the gov't has fallen, the military has failed, there's no way the police are unaffected. Don't forget the money problems, too. Investigations are costly! Read some of those historical things in the 'final frontier' thread and see just how bad it was. No part of the gov't or anyone funded by them was able to run smoothly. The police were not exempt, as much as you'd like them to be, because for some reason you obviously don't want AA to be FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2007, 01:34:51 PM
Annie,
I' m getting whiplash from jumping back and forth between this thread and the AA Final Frontier thread.

Where would you like to continue this subject about the Berlin police and events occuring when FS was reported missing to the time the German courts  accused  Grossman of  having murdered her    because  it's silly to have the same converation going on two threads at the same time?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 29, 2007, 01:45:27 PM
Quote
gain, it is evident to me and others that you have not  research the subject of the history of the Police during the Weimer Republic  time slot in the history of Germany.

I have spent several days googling and checking for ANYTHING on the Berlin Police Dpt. itself at that time, but came up with NOTHING. There is nothing specifically about them out there that I can find, perhaps n some obscure German book somewhere, but nothing we can find now. So you can't claim they were a 'professional' and efficient organization, or even running or functioning normally, either. So you cannot disprove what I have found, that the fall of the gov't caused turmoil and colllapse in Berlin at the time FS disappeared, that the gov't was broke, and that its workers and pensioners suffered greatly for this. So everything adds up to them not being fully funded, manned, or able to waste time on a case such as this in a critical situation like the government being overthrown, and nothing but the word of you and other AA supporters point to them being awesome and unaffected.

And no, don't bother to lecture me again on how you're not an AA supporter, EVERY post you've made in the last 3 years points in that direction, and absolutely NONE point against it. If you were at least objective to both sides, I might believe you, but since everything you do is in AA's favor, there's no other conclusion to be drawn. If I were to tell you I was an AA supporter, you wouldn't believe it, because all my posts are the opposite. Well that's how I feel about you, only in reverse, no matter what you say. Actions speak louder than words! If you want prove it, let's see you fight AGAINST AA's cause for once!
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on June 29, 2007, 08:22:46 PM
Removed my own   post. 

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on June 30, 2007, 05:52:23 AM
Quote
gain, it is evident to me and others that you have not  research the subject of the history of the Police during the Weimer Republic  time slot in the history of Germany.

I have spent several days googling and checking for ANYTHING on the Berlin Police Dpt. itself at that time, but came up with NOTHING. There is nothing specifically about them out there that I can find, perhaps n some obscure German book somewhere, but nothing we can find now. So you can't claim they were a 'professional' and efficient organization, or even running or functioning normally, either. So you cannot disprove what I have found, that the fall of the gov't caused turmoil and colllapse in Berlin at the time FS disappeared, that the gov't was broke, and that its workers and pensioners suffered greatly for this. So everything adds up to them not being fully funded, manned, or able to waste time on a case such as this in a critical situation like the government being overthrown, and nothing but the word of you and other AA supporters point to them being awesome and unaffected.

...[in part].....

I know a great deal about the Berlin police between the years of 1918 and 1925.

When the  Germans' world collapsed,   the Germans' problems shifted from foreign affairs and war to internal security.  And,  do you know who was in charge of the internal security of the New Weimer Republic,  as it was called in those times after WWI?   The Berlin police.   Between WWI and the beginning of the  Hitler period,  the police became the backbone of public  security in the middle of those chaotic times.    Therefore,  my  thoughts about the Berlin Police is quite different than what  some you believe.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on June 30, 2007, 08:02:49 AM
Oh you do, bear? Well please, post your sources for us to study! I haven't been able to find anything! If you have, let's see it!

There are some basic facts here, one is that police are funded by the public moneys, and if those are not sufficient, no one can pay them or fund their investigations. You mean to tell me they could do what the army couldn't do? Please, it makes no sense. And anyway, if they did have all these security concerns due to the fallen gov't, IF they were taking over for the army, one missing woman would be the last thing on their minds.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: dmitri on June 30, 2007, 01:42:23 PM
Annie it is so obvious he is an AA supporter. This nonsense about FS and Grossman is just laughable. 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on June 30, 2007, 07:01:35 PM
Police President Menzel of Magdeburg confirms what I've presented:

"General speaking, the interest of the state and of its citizens does not allow for any curtailment in the police's range of activities.  On the contarary, this area must be constantly enlarged in accordance with the changing conditions of life....  Growing complexity in living conditions calls for growing complextiy in policing.  In every part of the world,  the twentieth century is and will be an age of revolutionary tensions... The calm and deliberate work of social reform, so ncessary for the relief of these tension, make political isolators imperative if sort circults --read [sic] revolutions--are to be averted and the reforms secured.  The most important isolator of all is the security police."

And this is  what the police had already accomplished by 1919 and early 1920s:

# 4 milion people became part of the jurisdiction of a police machine which was:   
#Uniformed security officers:  14,000*
#Detectives: 3,000
#Agents of the political police who were known: 300
#Crimnal Police:  [I don't know the numbers]
#Administrative Police:  [I don't know the numbers]
#Regular Police (Schutzpolizei) :  [14,000 to 16,000 by 1920*]
#There were  "riot-prone" ("krawallreviere)wards and other different wards which depended upon the neighborhood
#Each district held it's own police  headquarters for example there was the Reinickendorf Police,  Pandau Police, Wilmersdorf Police, Weissensee Police, #Treptow Police....
# In  Berlin   there were  a number of  Precincts [about 161]  which allowed more communication and more control within what was called "Central Districts of Berlin"
# There were 42 riot brigades, which had 120 men divided into "Zuege (platoons), I believe in the city, however, they could move to an area needed.


The main zones of insecurity was  handled differently than other zones.

The five separate police presidums were replaced with 8 rural police districts...

The new police apparatus created by 1920 was the largest of it kind to this date in Prussia and Germany.

A little something about the "Schutzpolizei" to give you a better idea of what was occuring at this time: 

#After 1923  new policeman were unmarried,  attended school, which was just built, for one year.  For the next four to six years he served as probationer with one of the riot brigades...  Then he attended another four month course and was ready for protmotion to precinct work. 

#There was an Academy for Physical Training (Polizeischule fuer Leibesuebungen) for all the police, dectives, etc.  founded in Berlin-Spandau in 1920. Police sport incorporated not just the police but their entire family

#In 1919 a young police recieved 160.33 marks per month.  And during the days of inflation, the police were sometimes paid as often as 5 times a dayl

#The new unmarried police were given a room and board and clothes.  There was a mess hall where he paid a low amount.  (This would include in the mid 20s and later,  medical and welfare services were given  free of charge.) 

Care of the police was meant to keep them honest.

When I have time,  I'll describe the Kapp Putsch and  how it affected Berlin Police.

AGRBear
*May be a lap over on these numbers.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Pegschalet on June 30, 2007, 07:49:31 PM
What other evidence is there which points to the fact that FS was murdered and could not have been AA?

AGRBear


I have been very amused at how this thread has just totally gotten off course.  The original question was Does anyone have anymore information about Grossman killing FS?  Unfortunately I don't have any information  about that statement but I did find it interesting and wondered as well if there were any other sources and looked forward to the replies. 

It just amazes me how a thread can be introduced particularly if it is about AA or FS talking about a specific piece of information or source and next thing you know posters are jumping all over each other about whether AA was AN or FS etc.  I read AGRBear's posting as a request for more information not an opportunity to attack. 

I do alot of internet research and realize there can be many credibility issues with some of the things you read which is why I believe many people post asking about specific information they read.  A simple "that information has been discredited by this specific source" would suffice I think without getting into personal attacks.

Would anyone like to turn back to the subject of this thread with more information?  I for one would love to read more.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 01, 2007, 10:28:20 AM
>>Did Grossmann murder FS?

Since  all I have is a 3/4 page mention of Grossmann from a book about murderers, Encyclopedia of Murder by Wilson and Pitman, I can't give you much more than I already have.

p. 243-4

"GROSSMANN, Georg Karl

"German mass-murderer, born in Neurueppin in 1863, who, like Denke, commited sudice before his execution."

"The case has many resemblances to the Denke murders.  In August 1921 the owner of a top-storey flat in Berlin near the Silesian railway terminus heard sounds of a sstruggle coming from the kitchen and called police. They found on Grossmann's kitchen bed (camp bed) the trussed-up carcass of a recently killed girl.....  He picked up girls with great regularity (in fact, he seldom spent a night alone).  He killed many of these sleeping partners and sold the bodies for meat, disposing the unsaleable parts in the river.  (The case becme known as the Die Braut auf der Stulle-- 'the bread and butter brides', since a companion for the night is known as a 'bride' in Germany.) At the time of his arrest, evidence was found which indicated that three women had been killed and dismembered in the past three weeks."

"...It is of interest that Grossmann was indirectly invovled in the famous 'Anastasia case....  At one point it was annouced that "Anastasia" was really an imposter named Franziska Schamzkovski, a Polish girl from Buetow in Pomerania.  Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... "

"...The number of his victims will never be known, but they may well have exceeded Haarmann's total of fifty, since he was 'in business' throughout the war until 1921...."

Let me repeat this part of the entry:

>> Franziska's family were told their daughter had been murder by Grossmann on 13 August 1920; an entry in his diary on that date bore the name "Sasnovski".... "<<

What other evidence is there which points to the fact that FS was murdered and could not have been AA?

AGRBear<<

Penny added to this:

>>German court procedure is a little different from that of the US.  Here, a killer might be responsible for ten or twelve murders, but will only be charged with one or two so that there are still live cases against him should anything go wrong with the prosecution.  Grossmann's trial was not like that.  He was charged with a list of murders, some of them identified only by the name he placed in his own diary.  The evidence given was short and sweet and fairly d**ning -- he was caught red-handed (literally) with the semi-dismembered body of a young woman in his "shop."  There was also the evidence of his own hand, in the form of his diary.  Evidence was given in several specific victim cases, but not in all of them.  In the list of victims he was accused and convicted of murdering was the name "(female) Saznovski."  <<

Not much else is known.  That is why I asked  the question in the first place.  The other reason is because I'm not as sure as Annie and others that FS and AA were the same person.  So,  I am trying to gather information  which will convince me that FS and AA are the same person.   I  am not part of the group who believes AA is GD Anastasia.   Just a person trying to keep the facts accurate while on this journey which at times  involved a  a person known to us as Anna Anderson, who (by the way) has never been my main interest.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 01, 2007, 10:43:38 AM
What other evidence is there which points to the fact that FS was murdered and could not have been AA?

AGRBear


I have been very amused at how this thread has just totally gotten off course.  The original question was Does anyone have anymore information about Grossman killing FS?  Unfortunately I don't have any information  about that statement but I did find it interesting and wondered as well if there were any other sources and looked forward to the replies. 

It just amazes me how a thread can be introduced particularly if it is about AA or FS talking about a specific piece of information or source and next thing you know posters are jumping all over each other about whether AA was AN or FS etc.  I read AGRBear's posting as a request for more information not an opportunity to attack. 

I do alot of internet research and realize there can be many credibility issues with some of the things you read which is why I believe many people post asking about specific information they read.  A simple "that information has been discredited by this specific source" would suffice I think without getting into personal attacks.

Would anyone like to turn back to the subject of this thread with more information?  I for one would love to read more.

Thank you Pegschalet.

I like the way you wrote:  >> I read AGRBear's posting as a request for more information...  <<

This is exactly what a forum like this provides:  An opportunity to gain more information from other posters who know a great deal about certain subjects and can add to a discussion like this one.

AGRBear

PS  My quote in my last post should not have included everything I wrote.    For some reason I wasn't able to change it.  The reason probably is   this old computer I'm using today isn't quite compatiable to this  forums software.  Sorry if is has or will cause confusion.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 01, 2007, 11:18:17 AM
Bear, I have tried to show that due to the situation in Germany at the time of her disapperance, the police did not have the time, resources, or priority to do a thorough search, and this is why FS wasn't found to be AA in the early days.

What are YOU trying to prove, that they were? And why? So you can continue the fantasy that AA and FS were two different people? Why would you want to do that?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: dmitri on July 01, 2007, 11:29:42 PM
Annie just ignore it all. It comes from the ravings of an AA supporter. Their delusions are pathetic.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 02, 2007, 09:54:20 AM
Thank you Annie,  for your interest in the political turmoil Berlin was experiencing in 1920.  Indeed it was a terrible time.

After you threw the blanket over the entire city and it's police department,  I merely lefted  up the blanket to give you a closer peek into how things were from actual data and not from assumptions. 
 
Does anyone  know anything about Franz Grunberg, the inspector, who became part of AA's story?

Were you aware that Arthur von Kleist, who became part of AA's story,  was a former  provincial police officer in the Polish provinces of Russia?

These are just two men, one active with the police, and the other an ex-policeman,  involved in AA's case.  Do you know who the others were?  Or if there were others?  Do you know if they spent a hour or thrity hours on AA's case?

 I'd like to know the same questions about FS's case as I have about AA's case.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 06, 2007, 04:23:09 PM
Quote
Please,  be carefull  when you spread a political blanket over Berlin's  police and how it was functioning from the time FS was listed as a "missing person"  and  their decision that  FS was a victim of  Grossmann.

If the gov't has fallen, the military has failed, there's no way the police are unaffected. Don't forget the money problems, too. Investigations are costly!  ...[in part]....

In 1919 a young police recieved 160.33 marks per month.  And during the days of inflation, the police were sometimes paid as often as 5 times a day.

AND,  I never said the police were not affected during their defeat, change over from a monarch to the Weimer Republic  to pre-Hilter  times.   But  you are wrong in thinking that the Germans gave up their police.  Through it all, the police were there and in full force.  And,  the numbers  of police were growing everyday.

Telling people that the German police in Berlin had fallen apart is misinformation.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2007, 04:29:35 PM
I never said they let them 'go', I said that with all the coups, strikes, and disorder one missing woman was not their main concern, and it was understandable her case would fall through the cracks, and that explains why the obvious connection between AA and FS wasn't readily made. Bear, I really can't understand why you keep insisting they did everything they could, when you can't even prove it? It sure seems like you are still fighting hard for AA's cause and are not wanting her to be FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 06, 2007, 05:11:07 PM
I never said they let them 'go', I said that with all the coups, strikes, and disorder one missing woman was not their main concern, and it was understandable her case would fall through the cracks, and that explains why the obvious connection between AA and FS wasn't readily made. Bear, I really can't understand why you keep insisting they did everything they could, when you can't even prove it? It sure seems like you are still fighting hard for AA's cause and are not wanting her to be FS.

One missing peasant girl from Posen  or  young women, who refuses to  tell anyon who she is after jumping in a Berlin canal,   doesn't seem important in the grand skeme of things and from where you and I are seated some 87 years later.   But you are making assumptions based on generalizations.   Let us work on information that we do know.  And, find out answers that we do not know.   

 Do you know who the policeman  who was in charge of  the case of  Miss/Mrs. Unknown?   Before we can claim he was not interested in the case because he was working on more important cases,  shouldn't  we know who he was  and more about  his character?

Do you know who the policeman  who was in charge of  the Grossmann case?   Before we can claim he was more interested in lumping  a group of  unsolved cases of missing women in order to close the open cases and mark them as solved,  shouldn't we know more about him, too.

Do you know about any of the policemen working in Berlin  from 1918 to  1925? 

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2007, 06:15:40 PM
Do YOU know? I have looked everywhere, and there's nothing on the specifics of the cops. But we do know the facts, that from 1918-1923 the Weimar Republic was weak and broke, and in 1919 and 1920 there was much political turmoil, uprisings, coups and strikes. Common sense tells us that public offices like the police, the library and the mail service would inevitably suffer because of this situation. The only thing I'm saying is that due to the problems in Berlin in the early days of the investigation, this info is a very reasonable explaination as to why AA was never connected to FS right away. People say all the time, why not? Well, I have offered you historical proof of a very likely why not, and you don't want to hear it, because it hurts AA's case and knocks down yet another 'mystery' of the AA case.

Another thing I find kind of funny is that AA supporters like to brag that 'her pic was sent out to all parts of the Weimar republic and no one claimed her.' Okay, first, I don't think it was as thorough as you'd like to believe, under the circumstances. Remember too that there was no internet, few printed pics in papers, no fax machine, so any photos would have to be copied and sent through the mail, which was likely slow, or delivered by hand to various police depts, which seems unlikely and unreasonable. Even so, even IF all this happened, which I doubt it happened the way it was said to, IF she was AN, didn't anybody go 'hey look there's Anastasia!' NO! Because she wasn't! So there is a big shot in the foot to the AN claim in its own story!

And for those who wonder why she wasn't connected to FS, first consider the unstable situation at the time, and second, and most of all, FS was no celebrity back then and not many people knew her. But she sure wasn't recognized as AN, and there were plenty of Russian emigres in Germany at the time! No my conclusion is AA was FS and the cops never found her because they were too busy with other things. This allowed her charade to continue. When Ernie's PI found her, he got called a liar by those who didn't want to hear it, and come up with all this cock and bull about an imaginary trip to Russia he's hiding from, but in the end, the DNA showed us that she was 99.9% proven to be FS, so he was right all along. There had to be a reason AA wasn't found to be FS in the beginning, and I have offered you the very likely reason why, and you will not accept it. I guess you only accept 'the truth' if it's what you want to hear.

Bear, I do believe this forum is on its way to degrading to a battle of just me and you, and nobody else will care.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 06, 2007, 06:40:53 PM
To back track alittle.  Here is some additional information I promised a few pages ago:

Ten days after the fall of the monarchy, the detectives and criminal police recieved their guns.

During the Spartactist capture of the Police Presidium on 4 Jan 1919, the criminal police continued their duties as if nothing had happen. [Information from the interview of Kuckenburg] [Information "Die gruene Polizei, Eine Halbjahrs-Statistik" in Vossische Zeitung, 24 June 1920] One example was the men of the homicide who were investigating the murder of a postman at Hotel Adlon. They ignored the battle [4 Jan 1919] outside as they investigated inside the hotel. [Hedda Adlon, Hotel Dlon: Das Haus in dem die Welt zu Gast war pp. 120-131

It appears in the police dept. that it was business first....

The Kapp putsch lasted only 4 days (13-17 March 1919). In the aftermath,  Wolfgang Kapp fled 17 March from Berlin...  some leaders (one was Colonel von Schoenstedt who was replaced by Major Kurt von Priesdorff)  were exhcanged for others, men were asked to give a renewed oath of allegiance and then it was back to business of security.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 06, 2007, 06:46:51 PM
The bare facts remain: AA was not found to be FS immediately because of some failure of the police. You must think, or are trying to imply the police were perfect and the only reason they didn't make the connection was because AA wasn't FS. I am saying that there was much turmoil in those days, and it's very likely the police had more on their minds to deal with than one missing woman (and remember in postwar Europe there were thousands of missing persons!) and this is why they didn't make the connection that AA was FS, as Ernie's PI, and the DNA, later did. You really have no case. My conclusion is more logical.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 06, 2007, 07:25:28 PM
gotta run.

had to eliminate post which wasn't  quite right.

AGRBear

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: dmitri on July 07, 2007, 02:10:37 AM
FS=AA was not murdered. Certainly Grand Duchess Anastasia was. Why continue this useless topic?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 07, 2007, 08:41:59 PM
I totally agree, Dmitri! You are right. The only reason I'm back is to add something to the discussion about the state of the Berlin police at the time. I saw something someone else pointed out, and it makes the case of them being distracted from AA even stronger.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/wei2.htm

From this article

In March 1920, the Free Corps took over Berlin. Ebert and the government had to leave the city. The Free Corps were lead by Wolfgang Kapp - a right wing nationalist who hated the government for signing the  Versailles Treaty. This incident is called the Kapp Putsch. A putsch is an attempt to take over a country by the use of force. The Free Corps was joined by the Berlin police.

and again

The Free Corps was joined by the Berlin police.

So you see there, they were a part of the uprising itself! So they weren't going about their business as usual! This is even worse than I assumed! I had thought with the government fallen, they'd be busy with all the riots and fighting in the streets, but now we know they actually went so far as to JOIN the coup?! Hey, no wonder they didn't find out AA was FS!

This report in this link paints an even gloomier picture of postwar Germany between 1919 and 1923 than even I imagined. It wasn't such an orderly and efficient place as one special AA supporter likes to portray it.

Quote
posted by bear
...in part...

In 1919 a young police recieved 160.33 marks per month.  And during the days of inflation, the police were sometimes paid as often as 5 times a day.

I found out what this means:

People were paid by the hour and rushed to pass money to loved ones so that it could be spent before its value meant it was worthless.

source:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/hyperinf.htm

So you see, EVERYONE was being paid several times a day, so they could spend it before prices went up again!

More explainations of how the bad financial times came about, and ome first hand accounts of just how bad those times were:

http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar_hyperinflation.htm

I will not discuss Grossman killing FS anymore, we know he didn't. But we do know the police had much more to do in those days than to look for one, at the time, obscure woman.



Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2007, 12:11:45 AM
The bare facts remain: AA was not found to be FS immediately because of some failure of the police. You must think, or are trying to imply the police were perfect and the only reason they didn't make the connection was because AA wasn't FS. I am saying that there was much turmoil in those days, and it's very likely the police had more on their minds to deal with than one missing woman (and remember in postwar Europe there were thousands of missing persons!) and this is why they didn't make the connection that AA was FS, as Ernie's PI, and the DNA, later did. You really have no case. My conclusion is more logical.

Since I gave you the name of two police leaders who were part of the Krpp putsch,   then you must /  or should have realized that I know some of the Berlin police were not perfect or they would not have joined  Kapp, who was  one of the foundrs of the  Fatherland Party, who plotted to replace the government with a "national dictatorship".

AGRBear.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2007, 12:54:02 AM
...[in part]...

Another thing I find kind of funny is that AA supporters like to brag that 'her pic was sent out to all parts of the Weimar republic and no one claimed her.' Okay, first, I don't think it was as thorough as you'd like to believe, under the circumstances. Remember too that there was no internet, few printed pics in papers, no fax machine, so any photos would have to be copied and sent through the mail, which was likely slow, or delivered by hand to various police depts, which seems unlikely and unreasonable. Even so, even IF all this happened, which I doubt it happened the way it was said to, IF she was AN, didn't anybody go 'hey look there's Anastasia!' NO! Because she wasn't! So there is a big shot in the foot to the AN claim in its own story!


(1)  You have no idea how many photographs were sent, however,  we have been told that a copy was sent to each headquarters  [gave number which were just in Berlin which exsisted earlier)  and as far away as Posen,  the area in which  FS had lived, and,  her family still lived at this time.   I  believe photographs were sent, also, to the various asylums....
(2)   Since the police had had men [courriers] who delivered official mail to their headquarters,  so,  it probably was sent  in this methold and not through the mail, but,  I'm not sure.  Perhaps someone out there knows the answer to othis.

The police took "mug shots"  from the front and from the side at Dalldorf after FS was reported missing in March of 19120.   We have seen copies of these "mug shots"  on this forum.  Therefore,  her photos went out after  March 1920

When  AA's photo was splashed all over the newspapers when the detective  [what's-his-name] claim she was FS and not the  GD Anastasia,  did anyone come forth and say,  "Hey we knew all along this woman was FS?"    No one from her past came forth?  When FS's name came up in Grossmann's trial in 1922 did anyone from her past come forth?   What about AA's long long court trial,  did anyone come forth and claim  AA was FS.    FS didn't just  suddenly appear .  She had  a life.   What about the people who
1) ....  worked with FS as a waitress   why didn't anyone come forth and say they knew FS and AA were the same person
2) ...  who knew FS at any of the asylums  she had been known to have been a patient said AA was FS....
3) ... who worked with FS on  the farm shen she cut asparagus.... 
4)...  who were the other  tenants of the Wingander sisters apartments and why didn't  the lawyers,  who were trying to prove AA was not GD Anastasia, bring any of them  to testify and tell the judges they knew FS was AA because they had lived in the same apartment house.... 
5) ...  what about the  librarian who checked out all of  FS's  books  which people claimed  FS read...
6)... who knew FS while she was working at the grenade factor.  Surly people would remember the girl who dropped a grenade that killed someone!!!   
7) .....  where were all her classmate of FS ...   
8 )  .....her brother, Felix....  No one in  FS's family signed a statement at any time telling us FS was their sister.
9)  No one came forth for the Grossmann trial and said  FS wasn't killed because she was very much alive when they knew her as a patient , AA, in Dalldorf,  or von Kliest,  or whereever AA was in Aug of 1922.... ???  ???  ???

Dose  anyone know if  the press ran a photo of  the three victims  (one was FS) which the police claimed Grossmann and killed and was convicted in 1922 for having  comitted these murders.  Remember the name FS was on the court papers not "Sasovski"

AGRBear



Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2007, 01:08:50 AM
Quote

...[in part]...

In 1919 a young police recieved 160.33 marks per month.  And during the days of inflation, the police were sometimes paid as often as 5 times a day.

I found out what this means:

People were paid by the hour and rushed to pass money to loved ones so that it could be spent before its value meant it was worthless.

source:

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/hyperinf.htm

So you see, EVERYONE was being paid several times a day, so they could spend it before prices went up again!

More explainations of how the bad financial times came about, and ome first hand accounts of just how bad those times were:

http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar_hyperinflation.htm

I will not discuss Grossman killing FS anymore, we know he didn't. But we do know the police had much more to do in those days than to look for one, at the time, obscure woman.

The military police "Sicherheitszpolizei",  who caused Kapp to flee,   became part of and was known as the "civilian secruity police" and were joined by the Sipo which enlarged the "schutzpolizei" with the approval of the Allies.

I understood the inflation.  That is why   I  placed the fact that sometimes the police were paid five times a day.  For those who don't take a look at the link Annie has provided.

AGRBear

PS

ERROR in my post:  >>What about AA's long long court trial,  did anyone come forth and claim  AA was FS. <<     The Wingender sisters  testified and gave false evidence that  they believed AA was FS.   
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 09, 2007, 06:33:40 AM
Golly, bear, you are trying so hard to prove AA wasn't FS! Why? You say you don't believe she was AN, so are you saying you believe the .001% chance she was someone other than FS, though in all these years no other suspects for who AA might have been have been mentioned, because there weren't any? Or are you saying the DNA was flawed and she wasn't a relative of Carl Maucher? Dmitri is right, there really is no need to discuss whether or not FS was murdered by Grossman, because we KNOW she wasn't. And obviously, regardless of what you say about the police, they DID make a mistake in saying she was. Now, whether that was due to their inefficiency and errors in a time of turmoil and inflation, or if they simply wrote her off as a possible victim to close the case, as they may have done with other missing girls of the time, we don't know. But we do know they were wrong,and that they weren't the impressive unit at the time that you and others have insisited they were, so there's no need to keep pushing it. There was no real evidence to suggest he killed her other than that she was missing in roughly the same time frame he was active. Obviously, the police did have problems at the time and they did make an error. No, FS was not murdered by Grossman, she died in 1984 in Virginia, under the name Anastasia Manahan.

Did you ever wonder, if she was so officially 'dead' that FS was such a big deal in the trial? By then, everyone from the family to the courts to the police themselves realized that there had been an error. There wasn't even an official death certificate, was there?

You make such a big long list of where she was and who didn't identify her. Well, first, she wasn't famous back then, and it is very possible that people who only worked with her briefly wouldn't have noticed enough detail in her to be sure. Also, some people 'just don't want to get involved' and some don't read the newspaper. Perhaps the people at the asparagus plant didn't either because they were illiterate or too poor to buy a paper, or they just didn't notice. I still don't think it was widely distributed as you say, and at the time of the Putch, everything was shut down and it's not likely she was any kind of a priority afterward with all the mess going around. Other things to consider are that the picture may not have looked like her, to me it doesn't look much like the one we have of FS, but there's one thing for sure, nobody came forward to say she was FS, but also, nobody came forward and said 'hey look! there's the Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia!' either!  ;)

I have finished my point about the police, and I don't feel there's any need to go on with the Grossman question, it's answered. Maybe someone else can play along, I'm done here.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2007, 11:43:38 AM
As far as I'm concern,   it doesn't matter if I discover AA was FS,  however,  I  have not been convinced they are the same person. 

Telling me that the Berlin police between 1919 and 1932 were  a usless bunch of  men who  didn't care about crime,  including finding "missing persons"  just isn't  true.

Here is an  example of a police detective who was working cases during this time.  If you're my age you'll reconize his name, however,  since most of you are young  you won't know who  Ernst Gennat  is.   Goggle  the name and you'll discover  how Gennat and other police  cared about the people of  Weimer Republic. 

Early movies often show a character similar to Gennat  as a police detective finding the muderer.

The leadership of the various police department viewed the same principles which give me the sense that every  individual crime deserved "meticulous treatment".    If you continue to be interested,  view the lives of Police President Grzesinski and Dr. Weiss who was chief of the Berlin "Kripo".

AA,  if indeed she was FS,  was interviewed by the police  a number of times.  The ones we know about were:

(1)  The explosion of the grenade in the factory which killed a  boss of  the area where he was killed.  Who dropped the grenade?  FS.  They would have interviewed FS and all the witnesses.   Someone in the police had to gather evidence and decisions were made that  either FS had dropped the grenade deliberitly  or  accidently.    Since  FS was not injured,  perhaps this might have tweaked interest.... How did  FS  not recieve any wounds?

This time slot was during the war and  the police would have been  been greatly interested in any anti-war actitivies which I'm sure a dropped grenade in a grenade factory would have been thourghly investigated.

(2)  AA jumped into the canal as an apparent sucide in Feb. of 1920.

This time slot would have been the post-war  police which would have gone through a variety of departments.  The first department would have been  the regular police of which  the policeman who saved AA was a part.  He made his report.

The next department was the one who dealt with "missing persons".    As we  know they didn't just forget about AA because they actively searched.  They even brought in family members of families who had missing woman who's  look and age resembled that of AA's.   Just as we know they went as far as Posen because a person was brought from Posen to Berlin in hopes they could idenity  AA.  They took mug shots and sent them to the headquarters.   They took  AA's fingerprints.    They gave her a complete examination and  it is on record everything from her height to the fact that AA had given birth to a child.....

(3)  AA's case sparked  Hitler's interest.

Now,  we're talking about a different time in Germany's history. 

A time when just a few words from Hitler opened up any door needed to discover who AA was.

(4)  AA's  trial open up the questions again about  AA being FS.

A time when public interest  was growing to a new height and the German police were no longer in the shadows of WWI  and WWII.   And, still,  no one proved  AA was FS.

The DNA subject has it's own threads and  you'll find my posts are in great number  and I'm quite clear in my thoughts on AA and FS.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 09, 2007, 02:18:43 PM
As far as I'm concern,   it doesn't matter if I discover AA was FS,  however,  I  have not been convinced they are the same person. 

Why not, and who do you think she is? Wait, never mind...

Quote
Telling me that the Berlin police between 1919 and 1932 were  a usless bunch of  men who  didn't care about crime,  including finding "missing persons"  just isn't  true.

Bear, I'm going to have to bring out my old headbanger smilie. I never said that! I did say that due to the MARCH 1920 (within days of FS being reported missing!) overthrow of the government and the riots that followed, they had much more important things to do than to hunt for FS, and in fact they even joined the coup attempt, which proves it was not business as usual for them. There were severe problems from 1919 thru 1923.

Quote
AA,  if indeed she was FS,  was interviewed by the police  a number of times.  The ones we know about were:

(1)  The explosion of the grenade in the factory which killed a  boss of  the area where he was killed.  Who dropped the grenade?  FS.  They would have interviewed FS and all the witnesses.   Someone in the police had to gather evidence and decisions were made that  either FS had dropped the grenade deliberitly  or  accidently.    Since  FS was not injured,  perhaps this might have tweaked interest.... How did  FS  not recieve any wounds?

Bear, FS DID receive wounds. Ernst of Hesse's detective found this out, and he was a lot closer- in geography and time frame- than any of us are. Common sense tells you that a person dropping a grenade which kills the man next to her doesn't emerge unscathed. FS was injured, and there is no reliable evidence to prove otherwise, so stop repeating it like it's a fact. It's not. And what, are you now trying to paint her as an attempted murderess? Sigh, what goes on in your honey pot?

Quote
This time slot was during the war and  the police would have been  been greatly interested in any anti-war actitivies which I'm sure a dropped grenade in a grenade factory would have been thourghly investigated.

Let's see proof. Is this just speculation? It was an accident, plain and simple. No one ever accused her of trying to hurt anyone or being anti-war!

Quote
(2)  AA jumped into the canal as an apparent sucide in Feb. of 1920.

This time slot would have been the post-war  police which would have gone through a variety of departments.  The first department would have been  the regular police of which  the policeman who saved AA was a part.  He made his report.

So, you're saying the cop was the same cop, and that he remembered her? Or that they would make the connection? Oh come on. Even now, in modern times, with computers, the internet and radios in their cars, they don't do that! Even in a small city like mine, there's too many calls, too much to do! Why, just recently, I was pulled over by a city cop who told me he remembered me as being caught driving on a suspended license, and said if he saw me driving again he'd pull me. Problem was, that wasn't me, and my license was never suspended. He had the wrong car, wrong person! Most of the time, they don't remember you at all! I've seen a cop around a few days after an incidient in my neighborhood and spoke to him and he didn't even remember me. FS was hardly Paris Hilton, he wouldn't remember her and go 'oh that's the woman from the grenade factory!' and this is IF they came to the factory and IF it was even the same cop, very unlikely.

Quote
The next department was the one who dealt with "missing persons". As we  know they didn't just forget about AA because they actively searched.  They even brought in family members of families who had missing woman who's  look and age resembled that of AA's.   Just as we know they went as far as Posen because a person was brought from Posen to Berlin in hopes they could idenity  AA.  They took mug shots and sent them to the headquarters.   They took  AA's fingerprints.   

Bear, they did NOT actively search for FS. The gov. was falling, the police had joined it. Later, there were other cases to worry about. When Grossman was caught in 1921, they likely wrote off all missing girls from that time as killed by him and shut the book.

quote](3)  AA's case sparked  Hitler's interest.

Now,  we're talking about a different time in Germany's history. 

A time when just a few words from Hitler opened up any door needed to discover who AA was.[/quote]

Then obviously Hitler didn't care. I bet even crazy evil old Hitler had more sense than to think AA was AN.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 09, 2007, 02:19:22 PM
Quote
(4)  AA's  trial open up the questions again about  AA being FS.

A time when public interest  was growing to a new height and the German police were no longer in the shadows of WWI  and WWII.   And, still,  no one proved  AA was FS.

By that time, they had closed the case, and many others had taken its place. They didn't have a 'Germany's most wanted' or a "Unsolved Mysteries" or a "Cold Case" back then. It was over. By the time of the trial the Nazis had taken over and most of the old records were likely destroyed or lost. However, they sure didn't seen confident enough FS was dead to issue her a death certificate, or to go up on the witness stand and swear under oath she was dead when she came up during the trial, did they? Ernie's detective said AA was FS, and AA supporters fought him, but the police never said 'that can't be her Grossman made her into sausages' so sorry, once again, you have nothing.


Quote
The DNA subject has it's own threads and  you'll find my posts are in great number  and I'm quite clear in my thoughts on AA and FS.

AGRBear

Yes, you are, that you are constantly trying to attack the AA/FS story, and post everything you can pro AA and nothing at all that hurts her case. EVER.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 09, 2007, 05:48:24 PM
[Bear takes a big sigh.]

I have already answered  Annie's questions  and explain why I try to make sure her  misinformation doesn't go unnoticed.

There is not reason to answer her last two posts since she is just repeating some of  the same misinformation which means I'd have to repeat what I've already said.  BORing.

In  "Kriminalsnsationen" in VossischeZeitung  22 Aug 1921,  Dr.  Weiss  tells us,  Karl Grossmann admitted to killing and mutilating 23 women in his apartment in Berlin-Friedrichshain.
 

I do believe the family of FS did have a funeral for FS,  whic seems to me they would not have done so had they believed AA was FS.   Or,  am  I wrong on this assumption?


AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 09, 2007, 05:56:06 PM

I have already answered  Annie's questions  and explain why I try to make sure her  misinformation doesn't go unnoticed.

Bear, I even gave you sources this time! Or is anything that hurts AA's case 'misinformation' to you?

*goes to look for headbanging smilie, he will return if this persists*

 

Quote
I do believe the family of FS did have a funeral for FS,  whic seems to me they would not have done so had they believed AA was FS.   Or,  am  I wrong on this assumption?


AGRBear

I'd say you're assuming. I've never heard or seen anything about it.

Hey, I just thought about something..if FS was thought to be dead, and then showed up alive, think of the IRONY! So everyone's going on about Anastasia being thought dead and then showing up alive, but actually that happened to FS, but she was pretending to be Anastasia! So it all came full circle, and there was a miraculous return from the dead, but it was the wrong girl, and it still ended with the same person- FS.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 10, 2007, 10:33:14 AM
Yes,  Annie,  you did give 2 sources.   One about Kapp's putsch which lasted  FOUR DAYS  and inflatation.     

If you had read  about Kapp's putsch in the first place you would have realized that a percentage of the Berlin police were part of the rebellion but not because of Kapp's  politics but because the Allies had wanted to disband them  because  the Allies didn't want  a military police.   This lasted FOUR DAYS.   When it was over and sides got togather,  the majority were happy campers.  This addedd 14,000 men  who were no longer  acting like  peace keepers,  they became policeman for the people.   In other words,  they became part of the group in dealt with crime,  MISSING PERSONS,  etc. etc. .

There really is no need to tear down the entire Weimer Republic's  and Greater Berlin's Police just  to prove the assumption they were  ALL incompetent  from 1918 to 1932 just to prove  AA was FS.

My original question is a simple one:  Was FS Murdered By Grossmann?   The police and the courts thought she was with the evidence they  had.    If   FS was AA then it's obvious they made a mistake.   If  the police and the courts were right,  and  FS was murdered,  then who was AA?   [There is a thread for this question.]

I don't care where the truth take me,  I'm just enjoying the journey.

AGRBear



 

Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 10, 2007, 02:05:08 PM
But bear, those 'four days' were right after FS went missing! FS went missing on March 9, the putch was March 12-17. Afterward, there were lots of other bigger, more important problems than FS. That is the point I've ALWAYS been trying to make, that because of the turmoil in the city, and the involvement of the police, not enough time and attention was available to make the connection between AA and FS and that's why her case slipped through the cracks in the early days of the investigation, and her charade got its chance for later 'success.' Perhaps if there had been no coup at that time, they may have had more time to devote to something less important like her, but they didn't. It is true there was much upheval and inflation from 1919 thru 1923, proving Berlin was not always the best and most stable place to be living at that time, and how it did turn out to be a good place to disappear, if you wanted to hide or change your identity forever.

Bear, you always speak of finding the truth, but you circumvent it and avoid what's right under your nose all the time. I don't think you really want to find it, or you will keep looking until you find the answers you want to find and not the real ones. Otherwise, you'd accept the DNA that found AA to be FS with 99.9% certainty. The answer to the question is, once and for all, NO, FS was not murdered by Grossman.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 11, 2007, 06:26:11 AM
But bear, those 'four days' were right after FS went missing! FS went missing on March 9, the putch was March 12-17.

Where did you get this date of 9 March from?  I always understood that while AA was fished out of the canal on 17 Feb, FS was REPORTED missing sometimes around end Feb/early March.  I understood there was a great deal of confusion over the date she was reported as missing and also how long it was between her actually going missing and being reported.  Even Doris Wingender  didn't seem to know how long it was before  they went to the police.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 11, 2007, 07:09:14 AM
But bear, those 'four days' were right after FS went missing! FS went missing on March 9, the putch was March 12-17.

Where did you get this date of 9 March from?  I always understood that while AA was fished out of the canal on 17 Feb, FS was REPORTED missing sometimes around end Feb/early March.  I understood there was a great deal of confusion over the date she was reported as missing and also how long it was between her actually going missing and being reported.  Even Doris Wingender  didn't seem to know how long it was before  they went to the police.

From someone who is very knowledgeable on the AA case, and who is a very strong supporter, who sent me dozens of private messages with details in them. One of the things he was adament about was that FS disappeared on March 9 'for parts unknown.' He believes AA is AN and I don't, but he did several times give the date FS was reported missing to the police as March 9.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: dmitri on July 11, 2007, 08:20:28 AM
This whole thread is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Lemur on July 11, 2007, 10:00:37 AM
Yes it is. Maybe it should be locked away since we know the answer to the question and it's only turning into more wild speculation that will never end. Annie you should just ignore the ravings and maybe they'll go away. No one pays any attention to such nonsense anyway.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: ferrymansdaughter on July 11, 2007, 12:06:00 PM
[

From someone who is very knowledgeable on the AA case, and who is a very strong supporter, who sent me dozens of private messages with details in them. One of the things he was adament about was that FS disappeared on March 9 'for parts unknown.' He believes AA is AN and I don't, but he did several times give the date FS was reported missing to the police as March 9.

Thank you.   Is this linked to the man (can't remember his name) who said Francizka told him she was going to work in Bedford Road in London?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 11, 2007, 12:16:58 PM
No I think it was just the boarding house, but the guy claimed he possessed a copy of some report of her going missing and it was dated March 9, 1920.

And Lemur and Dmitri, I know you're right, I am wasting my time.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 13, 2007, 11:46:25 AM
But bear, those 'four days' were right after FS went missing! FS went missing on March 9, the putch was March 12-17. Afterward, there were lots of other bigger, more important problems than FS. That is the point I've ALWAYS been trying to make, that because of the turmoil in the city, and the involvement of the police, not enough time and attention was available to make the connection between AA and FS and that's why her case slipped through the cracks in the early days of the investigation, and her charade got its chance for later 'success.' Perhaps if there had been no coup at that time, they may have had more time to devote to something less important like her, but they didn't. It is true there was much upheval and inflation from 1919 thru 1923, proving Berlin was not always the best and most stable place to be living at that time, and how it did turn out to be a good place to disappear, if you wanted to hide or change your identity forever.

But the case itself didn't slip through any kind of cracks.  And,  this is what I'm trying to convey.  The police did make an active search.  There are records and information about  their search.   So,  telling me that the police assigned to  her case  weren't interested  isn't true.  Perhaps the policemen  didn't extend far enough because they didn't contact  the other missing girl's family,  which was FS'  family,  from Posen and bring a member of FS'  family to Berlin as the police had the other missing girl's family.   

AGRBear



 
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 13, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
Oh I disagree, it did fall through the cracks in the early days. Otherwise the connection between AA and FS wouldn't have been hard to make. It sure wasn't for Ernie's detective/PI. Just today I read something on another forum, (a forum which I don't think can or should be linked here) posted by Mr. Kurth himself, which admitted that in 1940 the Berlin Police, transferring the case to Hannover where AA then lived, did finally officially agree with the IDing of AA as FS as found by Uncle Ernie's Count Hardenberg ("Hofmarschall")(they had many years earlier also given Ernie's men access to the records, and some of them, including fingerprints, are allegedly still in Darmstadt.) Even though Kurth referred to the guy who did it, Heinz Drescher, as a 'hapless sap', and left heavily loaded insinuations that the Berlin police were somehow influenced by the deposed royalty, the quote was that they finally 'went along with the identification' and agreed with Darmstadt that AA was indeed FS. All conspiracy theories aside, that is one big slamming door on the Grossman theory, if you ask me.

The real truth in this obviously seems to be that the police did NOT have the time, resources or possibly even interest to solve the case when it first came up, but Ernie, who had a personal interest in proving an imposter was not his neice, did have the time, resources and interest to do everything he could to find an answer, was able to do just that and succeeded where the police had failed. In 1940, the Berlin police, via Darmstadt and Hannover, finally agreed with Darmstadt's investigation results and officially identified AA as FS.

I realize that there will be some who will write this off as some kind of coverup, but remember that Ernie and most of his family had died in 1937, so there was no one left to 'pay off' anyone.;)
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 13, 2007, 02:42:16 PM
here is the quote by Peter Kurth that I found explaining how the Berlin police did eventually go along with Darmstadt's ID of AA as FS and sign documents to that effect. If he, or the mods here, have any problem wth this being here I do understand it may be deleted. But for now, for info purposes on this topic:

the Berlin police caved in in 1926-1927 & sent all their files on A. to Count Hardenberg, Uncle Ernie's "Hofmarschall," who was working with Gilliard at that time to "expose" her (so much for monarchy meaning nothing after 1918!) -- the Berlin police themselves had reached no formal conclusion or determination about AA's actual identity, still calling her "the unknown Russian woman" -- anyway, a TERRIBLY polite conversation ensued once Darmstadt decided to take it into their own hands, and really this was AWFULLY irregular, because Darmstadt (Hesse) had no legal jurisdiction whatsover on the matter (AA having never lived anywhere near Darmstadt). When you read the correspondence about this, the first thing you notice is the utter slavishness of the Berlin authorities toward royalty, deposed or not -- and even then, they refused to put their imprimatur onto Darmstadt's "conclusions." "WE did not decide that she is FS -- this information came to us from the Hofmarschall of the grand-ducal court," etc. It wasn't till 1940, at least, that the Berlin authorities decided to give it all over to the police in *Hannover,* where AA was then living. Some hapless sap at Berlin police headquarters (Heinz Drescher), later testified that indeed, in the Nazi era, they had decided to go along with Darmstadt's "identification," and said that he had signed certain documents saying that "the identity has been established."

So officially the Berlin police did go along with the conclusion that AA was FS. This is the nail in the coffin for the Grossman theory, don't you think?
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: dmitri on July 13, 2007, 05:25:58 PM
The identity of AA has never been in doubt. She was a total fraud from beginning to end. What a nutter she was.
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: AGRBear on July 14, 2007, 01:20:36 PM
This thread isn't about AA or her claim to be GD Anastasia.

If FS was murdered by Grossmann then  AA couldn't have been  FS.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Franziska -An Interesting Story on Her own - A Timeline of Her Life #3
Post by: Annie on July 14, 2007, 01:24:14 PM
This thread isn't about AA or her claim to be GD Anastasia.

If FS was murdered by Grossmann then  AA couldn't have been  FS.

AGRBear

But don't you see, there is evidence that the police agreed with Ernie's ID of AA as FS, meaning not only was AA FS, but that FS wasn't murdered by Grossman. Case closed.