Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: Namarolf on April 11, 2004, 12:12:40 PM

Title: Tobolsk house
Post by: Namarolf on April 11, 2004, 12:12:40 PM
I know that the Ipatiev house was destroyed -but what about the Tobolsk house? Does it still exists? After all, "they" lived there a longer time than in Ekaterinburg.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Lisa on April 11, 2004, 12:32:21 PM
The house in Tobolk still exist:you can see it in the Kurth's book "Tsar" page 170.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Namarolf on April 11, 2004, 12:39:59 PM
Merci- do you know if there is some museum in there, or what they are now using the building for? Has anyone in this forum ever visited it?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Greg_King on April 11, 2004, 06:30:03 PM
A friend of mine who visited 4-5 years ago told me there were plans to turn it into a museum; a lot of the furnishings left from 1918 were stored at a nearby convent or at the monastery-I forget which, and so plans called for restoration of the house as it was when the Imperial Family was there.  I've since heard they also planned to move the Tobolsk Romanov archives-a huge amount of material-there once this is done, but haven't heard further word.

Greg King
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on April 11, 2004, 07:09:16 PM
I´ve seen somewhere in the web photographs taken by William Craft Brumfield of the interiors and the house was used as a museum, with the rooms full of things recreating the aspect they had in 1918. However i do not know if the things were original to the house.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: hikaru on March 30, 2005, 05:47:11 AM
A friend of mine have just brought to me a book with title: "With Tsar Family in Tobolsk" written by Pankratov ( revolutionaire, as I understand) and published in Leningrad in 1925 year.
Now I am going to read it.
If anyone read this book?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Abby on March 30, 2005, 09:06:32 AM
No, I've never heard of it but it sounds fascinating! Please. let us know what it's about ;D
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: bernard_timbal on March 30, 2005, 10:09:23 AM
(http://paris45.amenworld.com/~naotmaa/tobolsk.jpg)

View of the house of governor in Tobolsk taken during Romanov captivity. People at balconi is one of otmaa great duchess. (photo from Gilliard Book)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 30, 2005, 10:14:41 AM
Is there a floorplan of the Tobolsk house posted somewhere ?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: La_Mashka on March 30, 2005, 11:19:37 AM
umm

thats an excellent picture


I was surprised by the quantity of guards walking on the outside of the property.....  :o
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Abby on March 30, 2005, 12:21:53 PM
Thanks for that pic! I wonder what they thought...stepping out onto the balcony and seeing all those armed guards..
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Candice on March 30, 2005, 01:12:17 PM
Was there a tunnel undergroung linking the Tobolsk manor IF stayed in and the house that the servants stayed in in Toblsk? Would anyone know?

Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: hikaru on March 30, 2005, 11:53:26 PM
I have read the Pankratov's book  :
this is good. Whithout much ideology. I seems that he died before it was printed.
Pankratov was the Narodovolets (Terrorist Organization of 1860th who arranged the murder of Alexandr II).
He was in Siberia exile for a long time. But then he became geologist and seemed to be very intelligent man.
He was appointed by Kerensky to be the comissaire (or comissar) of the guard of IF in Tobolsk.
He was replaced by the Boluysheviks then.
According to the memoirs , he liked Nikolay and girls very much. He disliked Alexandra and people who served the Family ( Family brought about 40 people with them in Tobolsk). He wrote in details about some habits of IF, about girls (his main statement that they were very good but with uneducated completely) ,about the interior of Tobolsk house
, about that every day he received a lot of dirty letters in which a lot of people wanted to kill the IF - hundreds and hundreds letters with the insults of IF etc. Anyway he never showed it to the Family.
Because of those letters he could not let the Family walk on the town and outside the town. (Personally he thought that he could allow them more free, but he was afraid of those lives).
He wrote that the Tsar had no attention to escape and girls did not want to go to abroad. They wanted to go in "more far and deep Siberia and live there calmly".

Of course , he did not write in clearly, but I felt from this book that the IF could escape when February Revolution has just occured . Of course for this he had to make a effort (many guards was there) , but for the couple ofweeks (guards) was not controlled a lot.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Mark_Byron on April 01, 2005, 05:52:34 PM
Thank you, Bernard, for the photo. Where did you find it? It really shows the size of the outdoor space the IF were allowed to indulge in(so to speak) while they were there. Which building shown in the photo, do you think, is the one where they are on the slanted roof?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 01, 2005, 06:00:21 PM
An excellent question ! I could only imagine that the famous "roof" pictures would be from the [small] garden suide not visible in the picture. Of course this photo has been gone over in miniscule detail thousands of times but that is my guess.
Also, a dozen or so guards does not seem so many for such a large perimeter. Notice how vacant the large inner court is ? Nary a soul it seems. The GDs looking out to no one. Must have been quite a change from pervious balcony vistas for them.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: AGRBear on April 01, 2005, 06:08:57 PM
Hikaro,

I know I've said this about your other posts that your information is very interesting but I've never really said why.  I think it's marvelous that you can tell us what is presently being taught to you at this time about your own history.

Those of us living outside of Russia and no longer have family in Russia,  are out of touch of what is occuring in Russia.  Yes, we have newspapers.  But, reading your posts tell us more than any newspaper can ever tell us.

This time, you're telling us a book which is in Russian which I'd never be able to read, so, again, thanks.

I hope you continue to inform us and thank you for being you.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Back to the topic of the Tobolsk House.

Over on the Impatiev House under a different thread called Where is It, it is suggested that the diagram drawn in Gibbes and Summers and Mangold book is not the Tobolsk House but the Impatiev House.  So, I'm bringing the diagram over here to see what others think.

Benard said this floor plan is the Impatiev House:

Quote
...[in part]....
(http://paris45.amenworld.com/~naotmaa/plan_ipat.jpg)


Below is the floor plan, or so it says, of the Tolobsk House which is found in THE FILE ON THE TSAR p. 256 which is listed as Fig. 51.  The comment reads:  "Groundplan of the Governor's House at Tobolsk, where the Romanovs were held through the winter of 1917.  It was prepared for sending with a coded plea for help from the tsarina to the Brirish royal family."

It could be the Impatiev House if turned upside down, which I did.  But I don't know if it is or if the floor plan is similar to that of the Tobolsk Housse.  

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/ImpatievFlPlan.jpg)


It is a very poor quality and so I had to adjust so everyone could see it.

On p. 90 of  Gibbes THE HOUSE OF SPECIAL PURPOSE  is the same floor plan under which it states:  "Sketch plan of the Governor's House kept with Gibbes's drafts of the letter to Miss Jackson.  Was it a concealed cry for help?"

What does everyone think?  Impatiev House?  Tobolsk House?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Daniel Briere on April 02, 2005, 10:38:42 AM
Gibbes sent the letter, to which the plan was attached,  on December 15, 1917 (from Tobolsk then). Although the layout of the house does look similar to the Ipatiev House, there are some major differences; for instance, the corner room has only one window on each side, as the Ipatiev House had two.

Very cleverly drafted by the Empress, the letter has some information about the layout of the town of Tobolsk and the Governor’s mansion compound, the sentry posts, the schedule of the IF – including when they went out to Church – and a description of the house. The kind of information a rescue party woud need. The reference to David (the Prince of Wales) and his parents was obviously meant for Miss Jackson to understand that Gibbes had written on behalf of the Empress who wanted her to forward it to the King and Queen in the hope they could attempt something to free them. If it wasn’t the case, what would have been the point of adding a floorplan to some very practical information?

This leads me to believe that by then the IF must have felt that after the Bolshevik Coup their safety could be in  jeopardy. To me this letter and plan is obviously a coded plea for help.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: AGRBear on April 02, 2005, 11:29:59 AM
Anyone have the floor plan, other than Gibbes', of the Tobolsk House?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Reco on July 10, 2005, 01:43:30 AM
Tobolsk Governor's House

(http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7200/tobolsklamaisondugouverneur113.jpg) (http://www.imageshack.us)(http://)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Rijio on July 10, 2005, 08:14:36 AM
Quote
Tobolsk Governor's House

(http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7200/tobolsklamaisondugouverneur113.jpg) (http://www.imageshack.us)(http://)


hmm "La maison où les souverrains sont prisonniers de leurs sujets"
that's a pretty good sentence!  ::)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: lexi4 on July 10, 2005, 10:48:48 AM
Quote
Gibbes sent the letter, to which the plan was attached,  on December 15, 1917 (from Tobolsk then). Although the layout of the house does look similar to the Ipatiev House, there are some major differences; for instance, the corner room has only one window on each side, as the Ipatiev House had two.

Very cleverly drafted by the Empress, the letter has some information about the layout of the town of Tobolsk and the Governor’s mansion compound, the sentry posts, the schedule of the IF – including when they went out to Church – and a description of the house. The kind of information a rescue party woud need. The reference to David (the Prince of Wales) and his parents was obviously meant for Miss Jackson to understand that Gibbes had written on behalf of the Empress who wanted her to forward it to the King and Queen in the hope they could attempt something to free them. If it wasn’t the case, what would have been the point of adding a floorplan to some very practical information?

This leads me to believe that by then the IF must have felt that after the Bolshevik Coup their safety could be in  jeopardy. To me this letter and plan is obviously a coded plea for help.


Very informative Daniel, thank you. Does anyone know if the letter ever reached the King and Queen?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Georgiy on July 10, 2005, 05:21:49 PM
You will notice in the latest posted photo, two of the Tsar's daughters are standing on the balcony.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 13, 2005, 06:02:13 PM
Quote
(http://paris45.amenworld.com/~naotmaa/tobolsk.jpg)

View of the house of governor in Tobolsk taken during Romanov captivity. People at balconi is one of otmaa great duchess. (photo from Gilliard Book)


Can you please repost that picture? ??? Its not showing up, I would really want to see it!
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: RealAnastasia on July 13, 2005, 07:43:49 PM
Me neither! I can't saw it... :-/

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Georgiy on July 13, 2005, 09:07:47 PM
It is the one that Reco has posted, and Rijio quoted.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: lexi4 on July 13, 2005, 09:21:27 PM
I had to look closely, but I see them.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Baby Tsarevich on July 13, 2005, 10:16:33 PM
ooo I see it now, how can you tell if there's someone on the balcony ??? :-/

I wonder who took that picture ???
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 13, 2005, 10:35:29 PM
Who was the "governor" of Tobolsk and where did he go when the IF came in ?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Georgiy on July 13, 2005, 11:37:10 PM
Maybe he got thrown out when the Tsarist Empire fell. On the other hand - while they lost a Governor, they gained "The Governess"!
Title: Was this picture hanging at the Tobolsk house?
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 16, 2009, 03:40:53 PM
I have seen a detail from a photograph of the living room in the Tobolsk house, and there seems to be a picture of the Czar and Alexei hanging on a wall that looks remarkably like this one. I don't seem to find it now, doing a search on Tobolsk here in the Forum. But maybe someone has info on this: was this picture hanging there in 1917/18?
Thanks.

(http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww117/FernandoMario/IMPERADORNICOLAUIIEOSEUFILHOALEXEI.jpg)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on April 16, 2009, 06:07:01 PM
Probably you're thinking of this image of Nicholas & Alexandra's bedroom wall at the Ipatiev house in Ekaterinburg:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/th_Ipatievbedroomwall.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/?action=view&current=Ipatievbedroomwall.jpg)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Reco on April 16, 2009, 07:12:07 PM
Tobolsk Governor's House
two of the Tsar's daughters are standing on the balcony

(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2847/78112998.th.jpg) (http://img17.imageshack.us/my.php?image=78112998.jpg)(http://)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: nena on April 16, 2009, 07:23:40 PM
Wow - good eye, Reco. Wonder who toke it? P. Gilliard maybe? And would love to know which girls are there?

Fuller and more:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_governortobolsksf9.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/?action=view&current=governortobolsksf9.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_0291.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/?action=view&current=0291.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_36.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/?action=view&current=36.jpg)

EDIT : Girls are Maria and Anastasia, according to label in middle photo I posted.


Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 17, 2009, 06:31:55 PM
Probably you're thinking of this image of Nicholas & Alexandra's bedroom wall at the Ipatiev house in Ekaterinburg:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/th_Ipatievbedroomwall.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/?action=view&current=Ipatievbedroomwall.jpg)

Thank you, Sarushka. That is it. I know this original is now part of the Hermitage Museum collection. Could it be possible that it survived Ekaterinburg? Can it be the same picture?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: DonaAntonia on April 17, 2009, 06:36:43 PM
Wow - good eye, Reco. Wonder who toke it? P. Gilliard maybe? And would love to know which girls are there?

Fuller and more:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_governortobolsksf9.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/?action=view&current=governortobolsksf9.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_0291.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/?action=view&current=0291.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_36.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/?action=view&current=36.jpg)

EDIT : Girls are Maria and Anastasia, according to label in middle photo I posted.


I think it must have been Gilliard, as he identified them so well. The pic was first published on his book about the Romanovs. Here is the original edition, in French.

(http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww117/FernandoMario/LivroGillard5.jpg)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: tom_romanov on April 20, 2009, 12:56:35 PM
I know that the Govenor's mansion had around 18 rooms. what would these have been e.g. kitchen, bedrooms etc. ?  Also are there any photos?

Sorry a lots of requests there but Im quite a newbie when it comes to the IF and their time in Tobolsk.

thanks,
Tom
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: nena on April 20, 2009, 01:03:04 PM
I have seen Governor's House plan, upstairs and downstairs. I have never seen  photos.

From 1918:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/getImage.jpg)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on April 20, 2009, 01:07:24 PM
I know that the Govenor's mansion had around 18 rooms. what would these have been e.g. kitchen, bedrooms etc. ?  Also are there any photos?

There is a diagram of the floorplan of the Tobolsk house in [urlhttp://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=97]Le Tsarevitch, enfant martyr[/url].

These plans were sketched by Greg King. The layout is essentially the same as the diagram in Princess Eugenie's book, though the scale differs somewhat:

(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/th_GH1stFloor.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/?action=view&current=GH1stFloor.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/th_GH2ndFloor.jpg) (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Arrest%20and%20Exile/?action=view&current=GH2ndFloor.jpg)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: tom_romanov on April 20, 2009, 01:14:41 PM
Thank-you very much Sarushka! Are those the same floor plans you saw nena?

I am presuming here,that the black boxes on the 2nd floor (bedrooms) are stoves or fireplaces? Also in the 1st floor (dining room) are all those doors double doors?

thanks

tom
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: nena on April 20, 2009, 01:19:46 PM
Thank-you very much Sarushka! Are those the same floor plans you saw nena?
Yes - they are.   ;-). I think white boxes are supposed to be windows. Don't know about black ones. It might be.

I think doors are double ones. Here is Ncholas' room at Tobolsk:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_sobaNIIToboljsk.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/?action=view&current=sobaNIIToboljsk.jpg)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on April 20, 2009, 01:51:13 PM

I am presuming here,that the black boxes on the 2nd floor (bedrooms) are stoves or fireplaces?

Yes. Probably Russian-style ceramic stoves.

Quote
Also in the 1st floor (dining room) are all those doors double doors?

Not sure. The only doors I've seen photos of are Alexandra's sitting room, the tsar's study, and the dining room.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: tom_romanov on April 20, 2009, 02:11:31 PM
thank you nena and Sarushka is the photo of the dining room the one with Olga, Tatiana and M. Gillard etc?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: nena on April 20, 2009, 02:22:27 PM
I think it is., Tatischev, Hendrikova, Schnieder are also presented, early 1918, April, most probably,  after NAM went to Ekaterinburg.

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/th_100_2309.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/?action=view&current=100_2309.jpg)

One more of room:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/th_tobolsk_10.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/?action=view&current=tobolsk_10.jpg)

Priest in Governor's House Hall (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/0309.jpg), 1918.


Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: tom_romanov on April 20, 2009, 02:33:43 PM
Thank you for the photos. Which room is the second photo of?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: nena on April 20, 2009, 02:36:07 PM
Thank you for the photos. Which room is the second photo of?
Nicholas' study, I have seen labeled.

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/th_porodica_toboljsk_1917a.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Zarobljenistvo/Gubernatorski%20Dom/?action=view&current=porodica_toboljsk_1917a.jpg)
(1917, seen labeled Aleksei to be here  ;-))
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: tom_romanov on April 20, 2009, 02:38:15 PM
Ah, again thank-you I always like to learn more about the Governors house and Tobolsk.  :)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on April 20, 2009, 04:20:26 PM
The photo nena posted of the dining room is the one I was referring to. I think he's right about the date as well. That's the only dining room photo I'm aware of.

Nena -- thanks for that photo of the tsar's study. It's much clearer than the scan I had.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: pers on April 21, 2009, 08:18:29 AM
The plan referred to above is incorrect.  Please try and post the other plan in Princess Eugenie's book.  You will see that according to the King plan the Mansion has 8 windows on the side.  If you look carefully at the photographs of the mansion, you'll see it had at least 12 windows.  So bottom line, the plan is not right.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on April 21, 2009, 08:29:57 AM
The plan referred to above is incorrect.  Please try and post the other plan in Princess Eugenie's book.  You will see that according to the King plan the Mansion has 8 windows on the side.  If you look carefully at the photographs of the mansion, you'll see it had at least 12 windows.  So bottom line, the plan is not right.

Sorry, I'm away from the majority of my books for the next two weeks. I'll have a look at the plan later, but I won't be able to post it -- it's a thick paperback and I don't care to break the binding in my scanner.

If I recall correctly, Princess Eugenie's diagram was derived from written descriptions of the mansion by Gilliard and others, so it may not be 100% correct, either.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on April 22, 2009, 02:58:37 PM
The plan referred to above is incorrect.  Please try and post the other plan in Princess Eugenie's book.  You will see that according to the King plan the Mansion has 8 windows on the side.  If you look carefully at the photographs of the mansion, you'll see it had at least 12 windows.  So bottom line, the plan is not right.

Made a brief visit home and had a look at Le tsarevitch. Princess Eugenie's diagram is derived from descriptions of Sokolov, Gilliard, Kobylinsky, and letters of the grand duchesses to Vyrubova, and it varies much more than I remembered from from King's diagram. However, a number of elements in Princess Eugenie's plan are problematic. It does not indicate windows, nor stairways. The upstairs bathroom is larger than the tsarina's drawing room, as well as the grand duchesses' bedroom. The adjoining doorway between OTMA and N&A's bedroom is missing. The dining room is entirely absent from the downstairs.

I don't know what sources Greg King used to formulate his sketch, but the level of detail he's included suggests to me that his representation of the governor's mansion is more accurate than the one in Le Tsarevitch.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: tom_romanov on April 23, 2009, 12:12:43 PM
I am just glad I could see a layout of the house, even if it isn't 100% accurate.

"http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/tom_romanov/tobloskafrm.jpg" _ alexandra's sitting room in Tobolsk
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: nena on April 23, 2009, 03:28:19 PM
That is great one -- there is another one taken by Gilliard, on walls children portraits were hanged, in Alexandra's room.  ;-)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Janet Ashton on April 24, 2009, 07:07:16 AM
The plan referred to above is incorrect.  Please try and post the other plan in Princess Eugenie's book.  You will see that according to the King plan the Mansion has 8 windows on the side.  If you look carefully at the photographs of the mansion, you'll see it had at least 12 windows.  So bottom line, the plan is not right.

Made a brief visit home and had a look at Le tsarevitch. Princess Eugenie's diagram is derived from descriptions of Sokolov, Gilliard, Kobylinsky, and letters of the grand duchesses to Vyrubova, and it varies much more than I remembered from from King's diagram. However, a number of elements in Princess Eugenie's plan are problematic. It does not indicate windows, nor stairways. The upstairs bathroom is larger than the tsarina's drawing room, as well as the grand duchesses' bedroom. The adjoining doorway between OTMA and N&A's bedroom is missing. The dining room is entirely absent from the downstairs.

I don't know what sources Greg King used to formulate his sketch, but the level of detail he's included suggests to me that his representation of the governor's mansion is more accurate than the one in Le Tsarevitch.


Greg's plan is an English-language copy of a sketch made by Dolgorukov or Tatischev. So, bottom line, plan is right.  :) [well of course these gents  may have not have been 100% correct etc; but they were at least there...]
The original is in the Hoover Institute.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on April 24, 2009, 07:10:22 AM
Greg's plan is an English-language copy of a sketch made by Dolgorukov or Tatischev. So, bottom line, plan is right.  :) [well of course these gents  may have not have been 100% correct etc; but they were at least there...]
The original is in the Hoover Institute.

Thank you Janet.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Janet Ashton on April 24, 2009, 07:12:42 AM
Greg's plan is an English-language copy of a sketch made by Dolgorukov or Tatischev. So, bottom line, plan is right.  :) [well of course these gents  may have not have been 100% correct etc; but they were at least there...]
The original is in the Hoover Institute.

Thank you Janet.


I remmeber the exact day he received it; it was a big deal because I for one had been looking for all sorts of old books (such as Pares's memoirs) which might have a clear description to base a plan on - but which always truned out to be missing....
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: nena on April 24, 2009, 08:43:10 AM
Sorry, isn't name Dolgoruky? Also, in movie 'Romanovy - Ventsenosnaya Semiya' Governor's mansion was portrayed fantastic. I am not sure if mansion is same. Upshot - watch movie!.

 
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: tom_romanov on April 24, 2009, 11:09:27 AM
I have seen Romanovy once,when a member here posted it on youtube, but the video is no longer available and I can't download it, so unfortunately for me I won't be able to see the film anytime soon (and I really want to !).
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on April 24, 2009, 12:18:19 PM
I have seen Romanovy once,when a member here posted it on youtube, but the video is no longer available and I can't download it, so unfortunately for me I won't be able to see the film anytime soon (and I really want to !).

Go to frozentears.org
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: tom_romanov on April 24, 2009, 12:35:41 PM
thanks but thats where I tried, I think there is a problem with my .internet connection at the download gets to around 15% and then freezes. I sent a PM to Laura and it isn't a problem on the website. :-\
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: susana on July 20, 2010, 12:32:22 AM
Last Christmas I was extremely fortunate to receive the CD as a gift from a Russian friend. It takes liberties with the story and the Governor's House in Tobolsk is, in my opinion incredibly dressed up. But such a story and filmed so beautifully its a pleasure to watch--I have no complaints at all.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sunny on August 14, 2011, 02:45:51 PM
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/143/c6c8c159.jpg/ (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/143/c6c8c159.jpg/)
I'm here again  with my detail - mania!
We all know this photo of the GD's bedroom in the Governor Mansion.
I was wondering: does someone know whose the two bed we clearly see belonged? Sarushka, maybe?
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on August 14, 2011, 02:56:31 PM
According to John Trewin in House of Special Purpose (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=9), those are Anastasia and Maria's cots. The corner of Tatiana's is just visible on the lower right. Olga's was even farther to the right, out of the photo.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sunny on August 14, 2011, 03:52:06 PM
I really don't know why, but i was sure they were OT cots. LOL.
Thank you Sarah - i was sure you could answer my silly question.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sunny on November 09, 2011, 07:15:56 AM
has anyone an idea of where was the piano in the Governor Mansion? I wasn't able to find it anywhere...
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sarushka on November 09, 2011, 03:22:19 PM
has anyone an idea of where was the piano in the Governor Mansion? I wasn't able to find it anywhere...

I'm not sure if there was a piano in Tobolsk. There was one in Ekaterinburg, until the guards moved it into the duty office -- I don't recall the date offhand, but FOTR discusses it.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: blessOTMA on November 09, 2011, 10:10:43 PM
Olga's letter to her mother mentions a piano

2/15 May, 1918.

Tobolsk.

My dear little Mama, Since your birthday, we had no news of you, I mean, that's why we're waiting for some news of you impatiently. And you, do you not receive our letters? We sent, all in all, two telegrams. I'm writing near the wide open window. Today, the weather is splendid; no wind. The little one is out in the garden. They moved him there in his wheelchair. He also got up and put his clothes on yesterday, but he didn't get out.

We also cut some wood, for the bath. Zhillik and Trina had cut it before with the saw. We were on the roof, sleeping under the sun. Yesterday, there was a splendid sunset, and a marvelous evening. It was so luminous, and the sky was filled with stars!. You certainly don't have such a deep silence when the night has arrived...My dearest, how do you live and what are you doing? I would like so much to be with you! We don't know when we'll leave. My little brother must go in the garden more often and regain more strength, then, I think we will be able to leave.

I've sent a card to Kay these days. Today, I got a letter from Trofimov. He salutes you all, and send his regards. He's writing that the little Anatoly, his son, sends his wishes to his "grand-mother". There's a lot of funny couples coming and going in the street, even sometimes on bicycles.

Tell Mashka that I saw N. Dim. and Pimy from afar. We have moved the piano in your lounge, also the couch that was impeding us during Mass. Last night, the fan exploded with a lot of noise, and in our rooms, upstairs, we had no electricity.

I hope that, at least, you get our letters. A strange man has just passed, with a red fez on his head. Well, it's time. May the Lord protect you, my dear Mama, and all of you. I kiss Papa, you and Mashka, I take you in my arms and love you all.

Your Olga.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sunny on November 10, 2011, 12:38:32 AM
Olga's letter to her mother mentions a piano

2/15 May, 1918.

Tobolsk.

My dear little Mama, Since your birthday, we had no news of you, I mean, that's why we're waiting for some news of you impatiently. And you, do you not receive our letters? We sent, all in all, two telegrams. I'm writing near the wide open window. Today, the weather is splendid; no wind. The little one is out in the garden. They moved him there in his wheelchair. He also got up and put his clothes on yesterday, but he didn't get out.

We also cut some wood, for the bath. Zhillik and Trina had cut it before with the saw. We were on the roof, sleeping under the sun. Yesterday, there was a splendid sunset, and a marvelous evening. It was so luminous, and the sky was filled with stars!. You certainly don't have such a deep silence when the night has arrived...My dearest, how do you live and what are you doing? I would like so much to be with you! We don't know when we'll leave. My little brother must go in the garden more often and regain more strength, then, I think we will be able to leave.

I've sent a card to Kay these days. Today, I got a letter from Trofimov. He salutes you all, and send his regards. He's writing that the little Anatoly, his son, sends his wishes to his "grand-mother". There's a lot of funny couples coming and going in the street, even sometimes on bicycles.

Tell Mashka that I saw N. Dim. and Pimy from afar. We have moved the piano in your lounge, also the couch that was impeding us during Mass. Last night, the fan exploded with a lot of noise, and in our rooms, upstairs, we had no electricity.

I hope that, at least, you get our letters. A strange man has just passed, with a red fez on his head. Well, it's time. May the Lord protect you, my dear Mama, and all of you. I kiss Papa, you and Mashka, I take you in my arms and love you all.

Your Olga.


I searched everywhere, in every R book, but... not in the letters O_o  tha't the proof am weird, folks!
Anyway, now we can assume it was in the Ballroom before
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: nena on November 10, 2011, 02:54:21 AM
has anyone an idea of where was the piano in the Governor Mansion? I wasn't able to find it anywhere...

I'm not sure if there was a piano in Tobolsk. There was one in Ekaterinburg, until the guards moved it into the duty office -- I don't recall the date offhand, but FOTR discusses it.
Hmmm, if you remember one scene in Romanovy, you would remember that there was a scnene when OTMA sing, and Olga was playing a piano. At Tobolsk.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sunny on November 10, 2011, 06:57:35 AM
has anyone an idea of where was the piano in the Governor Mansion? I wasn't able to find it anywhere...

I'm not sure if there was a piano in Tobolsk. There was one in Ekaterinburg, until the guards moved it into the duty office -- I don't recall the date offhand, but FOTR discusses it.
Hmmm, if you remember one scene in Romanovy, you would remember that there was a scnene when OTMA sing, and Olga was playing a piano. At Tobolsk.

Thanks Nena, that's why i thought there was one - luckily Bless had the proof there really was one.  I also thought that the movie invented it, like Olga's transfusion, you know.
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: blessOTMA on November 10, 2011, 07:24:48 PM
It's amazing how one line of news Olga wrote so long ago can settle a question today...and if she had not thought to add that item? It's just interesting how small things can still impact things so much later. When Olga says We have moved the piano in your lounge,does she mean AF's sitting room? ...and it sounds like it's position  was moved within the room...interesting about the couch...that had to be in the ballroom since I believe that's where they had Mass
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sunny on November 11, 2011, 12:34:46 AM
It's amazing how one line of news Olga wrote so long ago can settle a question today...and if she had not thought to add that item? It's just interesting how small things can still impact things so much later. When Olga says We have moved the piano in your lounge,does she mean AF's sitting room? ...and it sounds like it's position  was moved within the room...interesting about the couch...that had to be in the ballroom since I believe that's where they had Mass

I think the couch was indeed in the Ballroom but the altar took too much place... IMHO... also the piano. Well, it's not strange the piano was in the ballroom, i think the Governor used it when had a ball...
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: blessOTMA on November 11, 2011, 01:33:30 AM
Sunny, so you are saying what Olga means when she says "We have moved the piano in your lounge" she means from the ball room to AF's sitting room? Quite possible.... or it could mean out of it too . The word " lounge"  should mean sitting room imo
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Inok Nikolai on March 04, 2012, 04:14:33 PM
A friend of mine who visited 4-5 years ago told me there were plans to turn it into a museum; a lot of the furnishings left from 1918 were stored at a nearby convent or at the monastery-I forget which, and so plans called for restoration of the house as it was when the Imperial Family was there.  I've since heard they also planned to move the Tobolsk Romanov archives-a huge amount of material-there once this is done, but haven't heard further word.

Greg King

I happened to come across this general thread concerning the present state of the Governor's House in Tobolsk, so I thought to add what we know.

We were last in Tobolsk in November of 2007, so things have no doubt changed or progressed since then.

I presume that many members of this forum read Paul Gilbert's web-site and blog, but just in case some of you missed it, here is the link to an announcement he posted in January of 2011 concerning the Governor's House:
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/news/273news.html

According to that report, the Tobolsk District Administration was supposed to move to other quarters, and the entire house was to be made into a museum in time for the 400th anniversary of the Romanov Dynasty in 2013.

Does anyone have any idea how much of this has actually been accomplished?


In Peter Kurth's book Tsar: The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra, there is a mid-1990s photo of the Governor's House on p. 170, and a small one of the Kornilov House on p. 171.

By the time we arrived in Tobolsk in November of 2007, the garage / shed — pictured in both shots in Kurth's book — was gone.
Sad to report, but, in order to "tidy up" the Governor's House for the 90th anniversary of the Imperial family's arrival in Tobolsk, and in preparation for all the expected visitors that year (2007) — all the outbuildings around the main house had been torn down!
That included the greenhouse with the slanting roof on which Tsar Nicholas II had built the platform for sitting in the sun!

Vladimir Soloviev, the Senior Investigator, told us that he arrived in Tobolsk during the demolition and tried to explain to them that those out-buildings were world famous, seen in photographs everywhere, and that the Tsar had built that platform with his own hands, etc. — but to no avail! It was too late...

The area all around the front of the house has now been paved. In King and Wilson's Resurrection of the Romanovs, there is a more recent photo of the Governor's House on p. 52. It is taken from the opposite angle than the one in Kurth's book. To the left of the house can be seen the low metal fence with squat, white pillars that now surrounds the preimises.

Inside the house, the stairs (pictured at the top of p. 181 in Kurth's book) have been rebuilt. The bannisters are still there, but the steps have been replaced.

In 2007, only Tsar Nicholas II's study was open to the public as a memorial museum. Even so, it was moving to be in the same room where the Imperial family had spent so much time while in exile, and where some of the letters from captivity had been written.
While we were there, a group of children were visiting the Governor's House on a school field trip, which was sweet.

The kind museum attendant was candid enough to say that, even if they were given back the whole building, they didn't quite know what they would do with it all. They only had a few authentic pieces from the time of the Imperial family's stay in the house. The Imperial family had taken almost everything with them them to Ekaterinburg, and from there, most of it had been returned to Moscow or St. Petersburg.
As you recall, in 1918 when the soldiers were loading the steamer Rus for the journey to Ekaterinburg, they took from the Governor's House even many things that did not belong to the Imperial family.

However, if, as Greg King's source claims, additional belongings are still to be found in a Tobolsk convent, and if the extensive Tobolsk Romanov archives are moved to the house, then perhaps a decent research center and museum could be established in the Governor's House.

During our visit in 2007 both the head of the Tobolsk District Administration and his staff were very congenial and helpful. In addition to the Emperor's study, they allowed us to tour the rest of the second floor. As we stuck our heads into each "office", the employees would cheerfully inform us who had lived in each room or what function it had served.

When, in 2007, we asked the administrator if there were any plans to vacate the house, he was very frank and practical in his response. He stated that funds would first have to be allocated to upkeep the house as a museum before it could be relinquished to others. He also pointed out that the local administration, by occupying the building, was also taking care of it: heating it, reparing the roof, fixing the plumbing, etc. He used the Kornilov house as an example of what happens to abandoned buildings in such a climate. As long as a bank had occupied the premises, the house was kept up; when the bank left, look what happened...

Here is the Kornilov House as we saw it in November 2007. Hopefully it has been restored since then.

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_KornilovHouse.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=KornilovHouse.jpg)


Here is a view from inside the Governor's House, looking up at the Tobolsk kremlin and the Cathedral on the hills above the lower town, where the GH is located.

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_ViewFromGovHouse.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=ViewFromGovHouse.jpg)


The plaque on the Governor's House states that from August 1917 to April 1918 Tsar Nicholas II and his family were in exile here.

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_PlaqueGovHouse.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=PlaqueGovHouse.jpg)

And, since I am named Nicholas, and one of the nuns in our group was named Alexandra, the others wanted to take a photo of "Nicholas and Alexandra" in front of the Governor's House — 90 years later!

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_NandABeforeGovHouse.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=NandABeforeGovHouse.jpg)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: blessOTMA on March 04, 2012, 08:31:04 PM
Terrific post as always, Inok Nikolai,  Thank you! In this photo of the children having tea, a structure is visible in the window.
Would you know what it is or was? Would it be the Tobolsk kremlin, or another structure? Thank you
(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/AP%20Postings%202/th_teatime1918.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/AP%20Postings%202/teatime1918.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/AP%20Postings%202/th_tower.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/AP%20Postings%202/tower.jpg)
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Sunny on March 05, 2012, 03:25:31 AM
Terrific post as always, Inok Nikolai,  Thank you! In this photo of the children having tea, a structure is visible in the window.
Would you know what it is or was? Would it be the Tobolsk kremlin, or another structure? Thank you
(http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/AP%20Postings%202/th_teatime1918.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/AP%20Postings%202/teatime1918.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/AP%20Postings%202/th_tower.jpg) (http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy202/blessOTMA/AP%20Postings%202/tower.jpg)

Because we are *not* trying to be 100% sure that room is Nicholas's study... we are *not* trying to know where exactly the table was placed in the room... LOL!!
But we're so lucky to have someone like you on this Forum, Inok Nikolai!
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Inok Nikolai on April 26, 2012, 09:51:06 AM

I presume that many members of this forum read Paul Gilbert's web-site and blog, but just in case some of you missed it, here is the link to an announcement he posted in January of 2011 concerning the Governor's House:
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/news/273news.html

According to that report, the Tobolsk District Administration was supposed to move to other quarters, and the entire house was to be made into a museum in time for the 400th anniversary of the Romanov Dynasty in 2013.

Does anyone have any idea how much of this has actually been accomplished?


UPDATE:

P. Gilbert's site now reports that the restoration work on the Governor's House in Tobolsk is scheduled to begin this summer:
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1436128/restoration-of-governors-mansion-in-tobolsk/
Title: Re: Tobolsk house
Post by: Inok Nikolai on May 06, 2012, 12:11:30 PM
And here's a commemorative plate on the Imperial family's stay in Tobolsk which has recently been issued.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/blog/index.blog/1436420/the-romanovs-at-tobolsk-commemorative-plate/