Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Servants, Friends and Retainers => Topic started by: Janet Whitcomb on March 27, 2004, 12:36:29 PM

Title: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on March 27, 2004, 12:36:29 PM
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Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on March 30, 2004, 01:14:23 PM
Congratulations Jane for this  new topic,
I would like to know what happened to Lily Dehn after her escape and how did she live in exile. As far as i know she went to Argentina(?) and lived there. The Empress and the grand duchesses beloved her little son Tity and Alexandra was his godmother if i remember well, even insisted that he should  be orthodox...Well, what had become of this child? Did the family preserved letters and photographs?
Perhaps Greg when searching information for his biography on Alexandra met Lily´s descedants...

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: JoanAlexandra on April 15, 2004, 10:15:02 PM
Antonio, I will share what I know about my grand-mother Lili Von Dehn: She escaped to Finland initially, and then went to her family estate, under White Russian control.  From there, with all the government instability- she escaped with her son and mother to Greece/Turkey.  Eventually she reconnected with her husband in England (Charles Von Dehn of the Standart), where she had 2 daughters, one of which is my mother, Maria, who resides with me.
After 7 years in England, she inherited a country estate in Poland. In 1939, She escaped from the Russians as a refugee between Poland and Germany.  In 1947, she immigrated to Venezuela with her son Alex (Titi).  In 1963 she died in Rome Italy and is buried there.  Her Book, on the site is called, "The Real Tsaritsa./Letters at Yale archives.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 15, 2004, 10:38:34 PM
JoanAlexandra, we are delighted to hear from you, and to learn more about your grandmother, whose life challenges certainly did not end after the Russian Revolution.  

If you have the time and inclination, we'd love to hear more about your grandmother, your Uncle Alex--whom so many of us remember from "The Real Tsaritsa"--and additional information regarding those post-Revolution years. Please also give our regards to your mother, Maria, and thank you again!

Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: julie on April 17, 2004, 05:47:17 PM
Hello, I am new here, just found this site and I have a burning question:
My Great Grandfather, his wife and some of his family to include my Grandparents, Father and his siblings were deported (or exiled) to Tobolsk around the same time as the Royal Family. My Great Grandfather was forestmaster in a russian duchy in today's Poland, they lived on an estate in the Przasnysz area. Rumor has it he was employed by a russian duke, but nobody remembers the name. He supposedly had dual citizenship (german/russian). Can anybody tell me anything at all? I am trying to piece together my Grandmother's story, who later became a victim of the NAZI medical murders in Germany.
I have so many questions, like: why were they deported, what was their standing or connection to any aristocracy, who was my Great Grandfather working for?
I am not an expert at all and my research just recently started. Thank you very much for any info, Julie
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 17, 2004, 06:17:33 PM
Hi Julie--

Glad you're with us! Wish I could furnish some insight, but keep checking in and perhaps others will be able to do so.  

Your message is a powerful reminder that so many people were displaced and so many lives disrupted--and too often ended--during those horrible times.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: julie on April 18, 2004, 08:16:09 PM
Thank you very much Janet! I just read my own post and I need to clarify a couple of things myself, lol.

It was my Great Grandfather who had dual citizenship, his name was Frydryck Geromin (spelling could be off). The duchy was in the province of Plock.
Why would my Family be exiled as well, there is no drop of blue blood as for as I know, but I have a photo from Tobolsk, where my Grandmother stands at the grave of two of her children she lost (typhus I think). My father is standing there as well as a little boy.
Most of the family made it to the US, my branch was later rendered stateless in Germany. ???
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Sarai on April 19, 2004, 03:23:05 PM
Wow, I am so pleasantly surprised to learn that there is a descendant of someone so closely related to the Romanovs here! Most of us here have read Lili Dehn's wonderful The Real Tsarista and know how dear the family was to her and vice-versa. It is very exciting to have someone with a connection to her here. I have wondered before whether this forum would attract descendants of people connected to the Imperial Family who would have interesting information to share with us, and I am glad that this is so in this case. Welcome then, Joan Alexandra, and feel free to share any recollections about your grandmother and her memories as you feel comfortable!  :)
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 23, 2004, 05:38:39 PM
Joan Alexandra, its thrilling to have you with us. If you want to share any more information about your wonderful grandmother, we'd all love to hear, as you feel comfortable. I've always felt a profound admiration for Lili, and please give your family my best regards!

Elisa :)
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 23, 2004, 05:40:21 PM
One further question i have, if i may ask, is i have read Lili's beautiful book, and see there are various personal letters from Alexandra, etc. Are these now kept personally by the Dehn Family?
If you want to share, i would love to know more about where these precious documents are now!

Best regards,
Elisa
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Johnny on May 06, 2004, 04:03:53 PM
Reading Julia Dehn's book posted on this website, I noticed that there were  some passages in French, in the otherwise all English text. That implies that the original text was not in French. Because if it realy were a translation from French into English then the translator would not have left thouse couple of passages in French. Also, once or twice Lili (Julia) refers her English language readers directly. On the other hand, Anna Vyrubova has mentioned that during her time at the palace, Lili Dehn did not speak any English.
So, does anyone know in what language Lili wrote her book? Also, does anyone have an idea about the original language of Anna's first book of memoires?
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 06, 2004, 06:43:42 PM
I suppose Julia wrote the book in Russian. The fact that some words were left untranslated is common in many memoirs of that time. You will find french words and expressions even in books by english writers. French was then the court or "elegant" language, and everyone was supposed to understand at least the most tipical expressions, like "Ç´est la vie" and so on...
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Belochka on May 06, 2004, 11:13:24 PM
There is a Russian edition of this book titled Podlinaya Tsaritsa (The Real Tsaritsa) which was published in SPb in 2003.

The first English editions of these memoirs were published simultaneously in Boston and London in 1922.

;)
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Olga on May 30, 2004, 07:14:28 AM
Was Lili Russian? Her name certainly doesn't sound it.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on May 30, 2004, 10:46:01 AM
Lily wrote in her memoirs about this.
Lily´s father´s(Ismail Selim Bek Smolsky) ancestors hailed from Lithuanian Tartary and  her mother´s(Catherine Horvat) grandfather were invited by the Empress Elizabeta Petrovna to come from Hungary and assist in the colonization of South Russia. This man, colonel Horvat, was half Serbian and half Hungarian.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Annie on July 22, 2004, 10:22:32 AM
I found this in her book here online. To me, it is very interesting and tells a lot, because it proves that Kerensky knew that the rumors about Alexandra were not true but he used them to his advantage.

KERENSKY (with sinister emphasis): "Listen, Madame Dehn, you know too much. You have been constantly with the Empress since the beginning of the Revolution. You can, if you choose, throw quite another light on certain happenings which we have represented in a different aspect. You're DANGEROUS."

Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2004, 06:42:22 PM
So don't you think it's interesting and sad how the revolutionaries, not only Bosheviks, fed off the hatred for the Tsarina caused by rumors, when it appears they knew they were false?
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Belochka on December 08, 2004, 09:33:51 PM
Which would mean that his memoirs will unlikely to see the light of day. That will be a great loss to history.

Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Marlene on December 15, 2004, 03:57:01 PM
I believe Lili had a second child, a daughter, who lived in Maryland, in the Washington DC area.  Cannot remember her name, however
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Annie on January 02, 2006, 01:40:54 PM
Does anyone have a birth and death year on Lili, and what became of her after she left the Crimea? Did she stay in France or move to the US? When did she die and how old?

Thanks for the info on her ethnic background, her name sounded German to me.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: matushka on January 03, 2006, 07:46:14 AM
Annie, Lili Dehn died in Roma in 1963. From the Crimea, she went to Constantinopl, then to England and a long time lived in Poland, where her husband died.
For russian readers, a link about Julia Dehn and her daughter Mary, who is still living in the USA at the moment.

Not especially serious, but some information! I did not know that Lili was the great-grand-daghter of the famous Kutuzov!
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: matushka on January 03, 2006, 07:47:55 AM
I have to add that the family name Dehn is the one of her husband, from an old family of baltic origin.
When was Lili born?
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 05, 2006, 01:02:34 PM
Quote
Does anyone have a birth and death year on Lili, and what became of her after she left the Crimea? Did she stay in France or move to the US? When did she die and how old?

Thanks for the info on her ethnic background, her name sounded German to me.

Lili lived in Caracas, Venezuela after WW2. In the 1950's she became embroiled in the Anna Anderson court cases. Peter Kurth mentions this in his wonderful biography of AA. Would be interesting to know if she kept in contact with Anna Virobova ......
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: lancashireladandre on January 05, 2006, 01:05:40 PM
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: frimousse on April 09, 2006, 06:19:12 PM
Julia Alexandrovna von Dehn=Lili Dehn (Summer 1917 Finland) née Smolsky.
Her mother Catherine Leonidovna née Horvat after her divorce with Julia Alexandrovna's father married officer of cavalry Veletsky (died in 1915 during a battle). Catherine Leonidovna's mother was Marie Karlovna Horvat née Baroness Pillar von Pilhau. They all lived together with Julia's son Titi (  from French=le petit=Titi) Alexandre in Beletskovka (Ukraine) during the Revolution.

(http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/frimousse5/lili.jpg)
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Belochka on April 11, 2006, 08:59:31 PM
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.


"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Annie on April 12, 2006, 07:34:27 PM
Quote


"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."[/color]

You should post this on the 'survivor' forum. AA supporters like to use her for evidence. I always thought that if she did recognize her, she was old (if it was the 1950's she was old) and maybe nostalgic or even senile. Also by that time she probably couldn't have recognized the real AN, who'd have been in her 50's, from the young girl she last saw in the spring of 1917. I never believed Lili really accepted AA, unless she had become delusional in her old age.

I too would like to know if she kept in contact with AV, her best friend. AV was never asked about AA and I wonder if she ever discussed it with Lili.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Janet_W. on April 13, 2006, 12:02:02 PM
I don't know that Anya Vrubova was Lili's best friend. I recall passages from Lili's book which depict Anya in a decidedly unfavorable light; at times she is downright exasperated by her. However, because of their shared experiences it is not be unreasonable to think that they kept in touch in their later years.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: RealAnastasia on April 20, 2006, 07:28:57 PM
Quote
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"[ch1053][ch1077][ch1090]. [ch1057] [ch1087][ch1077][ch1088][ch1074][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1074][ch1079][ch1075][ch1083][ch1103][ch1076][ch1072] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1091][ch1079][ch1085][ch1072][ch1102] [ch1077][ch1077]", - [ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1088][ch1091][ch1075][ch1072] [ch1094][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1094][ch1099], [ch1091][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1074] [ch1089][ch1072][ch1084][ch1086][ch1079][ch1074][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1091]. [ch1042] [ch1090][ch1086][ch1084], [ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1085][ch1080][ch1082][ch1086][ch1080][ch1084] [ch1086][ch1073][ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1103], [ch1090][ch1088][ch1077][ch1079][ch1074][ch1086][ch1084][ch1099][ch1089][ch1083][ch1103][ch1097][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1051][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1085][ch1077][ch1074][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] ([ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1090][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1076][ch1080][ch1083] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1084][ch1077][ch1088][ch1090][ch1080] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1072][ch1085][ch1072][ch1083][ch1080][ch1079] [ch1044][ch1053][ch1050]), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."

Yes; she wrote it. She didn't recognized her at the first sight, but the quote is not complete. Lili saw AA in 1949, so you may imagine that her face was not the same of a young girl having 16 years old. If she was AN, she had 48, if not, she was much older.

I'm sorry that I can't write in Russian. But here you have the entire quote of her visit  to Untenlengenhardt in English. I do not think that a translation could change a "yes" in a "no" or vice-versa:

"...Do not bother to tell me that she had read hese things in books (...) I have recognized her, physically and intuitively through signs which do not deceive...As I was going away and turned round once more to look at her, she said : 'Good -bye, God bye' and the way she said it went straight to my heart, for it was exactly the way my Empress used to do it...

   What can I saiy after having known her? I certainly cannot be mistaken about her identity..."

  You are right. DNA said that AA was not Anastasia (I always repeat it for I don't want you accuse me of trying to fool people). But you are not right about Lili Denh's opinion on the matter.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 21, 2006, 12:47:02 PM
It is clear that during the time period mentioned, Lili Dehn did indeed believe that AA was Anastasia Nicholievna. I believe an earlier poster's contention was that Lili did not believe this later on. However, I have seen no evidence of this myself.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Belochka on April 22, 2006, 09:35:09 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"[ch1053][ch1077][ch1090]. [ch1057] [ch1087][ch1077][ch1088][ch1074][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1074][ch1079][ch1075][ch1083][ch1103][ch1076][ch1072] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1091][ch1079][ch1085][ch1072][ch1102] [ch1077][ch1077]", - [ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1088][ch1091][ch1075][ch1072] [ch1094][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1094][ch1099], [ch1091][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1074] [ch1089][ch1072][ch1084][ch1086][ch1079][ch1074][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1091]. [ch1042] [ch1090][ch1086][ch1084], [ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1085][ch1080][ch1082][ch1086][ch1080][ch1084] [ch1086][ch1073][ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1103], [ch1090][ch1088][ch1077][ch1079][ch1074][ch1086][ch1084][ch1099][ch1089][ch1083][ch1103][ch1097][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1051][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1085][ch1077][ch1074][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] ([ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1090][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1076][ch1080][ch1083] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1084][ch1077][ch1088][ch1090][ch1080] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1072][ch1085][ch1072][ch1083][ch1080][ch1079] [ch1044][ch1053][ch1050]), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."

Yes; she wrote it. She didn't recognized her at the first sight, but the quote is not complete.

I'm sorry that I can't write in Russian. .... I do not think that a translation could change a "yes" in a "no" or vice-versa:

You are right. DNA said that AA was not Anastasia
RealAnastasia.

RealAnastasia,

In view of your own words informing us that you "can't write in Russian", kindly please inform me where I have erred in my Russian translation of the linked document provided by Matushka?

I eagerly await your response.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: pentetorri on April 23, 2006, 05:30:38 PM
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
PS Lili believe Anna WAS Anastasia......

According to the Russian language link provided by Matushka, the presumption in the above quote is incorrect.

"[ch1053][ch1077][ch1090]. [ch1057] [ch1087][ch1077][ch1088][ch1074][ch1086][ch1075][ch1086] [ch1074][ch1079][ch1075][ch1083][ch1103][ch1076][ch1072] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1091][ch1079][ch1085][ch1072][ch1102] [ch1077][ch1077]", - [ch1089][ch1082][ch1072][ch1079][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1088][ch1091][ch1075][ch1072] [ch1094][ch1072][ch1088][ch1080][ch1094][ch1099], [ch1091][ch1074][ch1080][ch1076][ch1077][ch1074] [ch1089][ch1072][ch1084][ch1086][ch1079][ch1074][ch1072][ch1085][ch1082][ch1091]. [ch1042] [ch1090][ch1086][ch1084], [ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1085][ch1072] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1085][ch1080][ch1082][ch1086][ch1080][ch1084] [ch1086][ch1073][ch1088][ch1072][ch1079][ch1086][ch1084] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1072][ch1089][ch1090][ch1072][ch1089][ch1080][ch1103], [ch1090][ch1088][ch1077][ch1079][ch1074][ch1086][ch1084][ch1099][ch1089][ch1083][ch1103][ch1097][ch1072][ch1103] [ch1051][ch1080][ch1083][ch1080] [ch1085][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1086][ch1084][ch1085][ch1077][ch1074][ch1072][ch1083][ch1072][ch1089][ch1100] ([ch1095][ch1090][ch1086] [ch1080] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1076][ch1090][ch1074][ch1077][ch1088][ch1076][ch1080][ch1083] [ch1087][ch1086][ch1089][ch1083][ch1077] [ch1089][ch1084][ch1077][ch1088][ch1090][ch1080] [ch1040][ch1085][ch1076][ch1077][ch1088][ch1089][ch1086][ch1085] [ch1072][ch1085][ch1072][ch1083][ch1080][ch1079] [ch1044][ch1053][ch1050]), ..."

"No. From first sight (I) don't recognize her", - said the Tsaritsa's friend, seeing the imposter. In that, Anna Anderson is not Anastasia in any way, clearheaded Lili had no doubt (and which DNA analysis confirmed after Anderson's death), ..."

Yes; she wrote it. She didn't recognized her at the first sight, but the quote is not complete.

I'm sorry that I can't write in Russian. .... I do not think that a translation could change a "yes" in a "no" or vice-versa:

You are right. DNA said that AA was not Anastasia
RealAnastasia.

RealAnastasia,

In view of your own words informing us that you "can't write in Russian", kindly please inform me where I have erred in my Russian translation of the linked document provided by Matushka?

I eagerly await your response.

Thank you.

Real Anastasia is not saying you have erred in your translation but that the quote is incomplete. Please, remember you are translating from a website, not all websites are correct or reliable as sources, Russian or whatever languages they are written.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Belochka on April 24, 2006, 01:52:56 AM
Quote

 ... not all websites are correct or reliable as sources, Russian or whatever languages they are written.

Ms Dehn never believed that the person was anything but an imposter, but her carefully structured words were misinterpreted decades ago and that  misinterpretation incorrectly offered a different complexion.

Those fully conversant in a number of languages have encountered flawed translations where spoken statements were taken out of context, losing their original intent on paper.

Sadly the new inquirer relies on that flawed translation, rather than seeking out the original for confirmation; as a consequence, they believe that this interpretation bears the semblance of accuracy.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: pentetorri on April 26, 2006, 05:39:24 AM
Quote
Quote

 ... not all websites are correct or reliable as sources, Russian or whatever languages they are written.

Ms Dehn never believed that the person was anything but an imposter, but her carefully structured words were misinterpreted decades ago and that  misinterpretation incorrectly offered a different complexion.

Those fully conversant in a number of languages have encountered flawed translations where spoken statements were taken out of context, losing their original intent on paper.

Sadly the new inquirer relies on that flawed translation, rather than seeking out the original for confirmation; as a consequence, they believe that this interpretation bears the semblance of accuracy.

I have to rely on sources translated by reliable and known translators rather than in individuals I do not know their credentials and who discredit so openly others people's work.

Please, as you are "fully conversant in a number of languages" cite the books on this subject which are wrongly translated so we can contact the editors and warn them of such mistakes and misleading translations.

My personal opinion is that if we have to go everytime to the original source to read the statements in their original language we are in serious trouble. Publishing houses, books, and translators would be useless .

Most of the members in this forum are "fully conversant in a number languages" but I think most of us would find kind of pretentious to arrogate the role of discrediting translations of professionals and published works .  I would be more cautious in the future before releasing statements as yours. At the very least cite your sources, and for sources I mean published works, documents from archives, but certainly not websites.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Belochka on April 26, 2006, 11:25:39 PM
Quote

My personal opinion is that if we have to go everytime to the original source to read the statements in their original language we are in serious trouble. Publishing houses, books, and translators would be useless .

In some cases one single word or grouping can be taken out of context because there is no direct word that can be offered by a second language. The use of "best fit" by application from a selection of synonyms - may remove the gloss of the original word.

Awareness that flawed translations do occur is a reality we live with which may only concern a few. It can be very relevant when dealing with legal or historic documentation as but two examples.

Alexander Pushkin's poetry can be very difficult to translate into English. Numerous published translations of the same poem are published and re-published as revitalized works. Whose translation is more preferable? Which more accurately reflect Pushkin intent? Is the literal translation more superior? and so on ...

We have strayed from this thread, but what I am attempting to demonstrate is that a translator, no matter how skilled will present a different product to that of another having the same words in front of them. Factors that dictate why such variances occur are remote to this discussion.

To conclude, my comment returns to Julia Dehn. Her spoken words may have been not quite as they seemed on first sight.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: strom on July 03, 2006, 03:16:29 PM
To all those interested in the testimony of Lili Dehn re the identity of Anna Anderson Manahan and the GD Anastasia Nicooleavna it seems to me that Peter Kurth's account is hard to refut!  Perhaps Peter Kurth himself can add something more?
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Nadya_Arapov on March 13, 2008, 04:06:46 AM
Has anyone on the board ever heard of Dmitri Leonidovich Horvath (1858-1937) before?

He was Lili Dehn's maternal uncle. She mentions him at least once in her memoirs: "The great event at Revovka was the visit of my uncle Horvat who came from Siberia to see my grandmother once a year. He was head of the Siberian railways..."

Until recently I never realized that he had played a significant role in the White Movement in Siberia. Let alone that he had staged not one but two attempted coups in 1918!

Gen. Horvath was described as a charismatic man, sophisticated and extremely opportunistic. He served as the general manager of the Chinese Eastern Railway and as governor of the railway zone. He had a large treasury at his disposal, served as the commander of the local Russian troops, had the power to appoint judges, and recruited a “police force” made up of Chinese mercenaries who served as his personal militia. Ultimately, Horvath answered not to the Tsar, but to the French directors of the Russo-Asiatic Bank and the railway’s stockholders. From his office at Harbin he ruled as a virtual potentate from 1902 until 1918.

After the Revolution, Horvath refused to commit to either the Whites or the Bolsheviks. At the time he controlled the largest workforce in Manchuria and both groups vied for his support. He received them all courteously attempting to play one side off the other. He only joined the White Movement after they appeared to have gained an advantage locally.

In March 1918, Horvath was approached by Col. Kurosawa Jun. On behalf of the Japanese Government, the Colonel promised to recognize Horvath as the Russian leader in Siberia, and to provide him with military and financial support. However, he asked a great deal in return. He demanded that Horvath allow Japanese ships to freely navigate the Amur River, that they be given unlimited fishing rights, and have unchecked use of Siberia's mines and timber. He also wanted Horvath to de-fortify Vladivostok and open the port. Horvath refused his offer and instead appealed to the US Government for help.

On May 16th, Horvath was chosen to command the "All-Russian troops in Eastern Siberia." His troops would gain a reputation for being quite brutal.

At Harbin on July 14, 1918, Horvath appointed a Provisional War Cabinet. The members were a diverse group including former Duma members, among them a Constitutional Democrat, two socialists, Kerensky's former Vice Minister of Communications, and a director of the Russo-Asiatic Bank. There was also General Flug, the former Military Governor of Vladivostok, and last, but not least, he appointed Admiral Kolchak (then serving as commander of Russian forces at Harbin) as a provisional member.

Unity within the hodgepodge cabinet was short-lived. On July 25th, 1918, Adm. Kolchak announced the creation of the All-Siberian Government at Omsk, claiming authority over all Siberia. Not to be out done, on August 25th Horvath proclaimed himself to be dictator of Siberia. 

From "King's Complete History of the World War," by William C. King (1922) Page 594: 

"After the Allies had sent troops into Siberia, and the Czecho-Slovaks, had succeeded in expelling the Bolsheviki out of Vladivostok, General Horvath proclaimed himself supreme ruler of the Far East and started with a motley army to crown himself as "Emperor of the East" in the Cathedral of Vladivostok. The allied powers, however, gave Horvath no encouragement in his Imperial designs. Instead they disarmed his army, and gave their support to the local officials who had set up a regional government for Vladivostok and the vicinity.”

Horvath did not give up, however. He made a second attempt at a coup d'etat on October 7th, 1918. This attempt was thwarted by the Czech and Slovak soldiers at Omsk. Two days later Kolchak and Horvath reached an agreement and joined forces.

After Kolchak's defeat in 1919, Horvath returned to Harbin, where he spent the rest of his life working for the Chinese as a railway management consultant.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Talya on October 30, 2011, 06:33:56 PM
Just a note, Lili Dehn and Anna Vyrubova were distant cousins through Mikhail Kutuzov ;)

Her Great-aunt, Baroness Nina Pilar, was in love with a certain Grand Duke Nicholas, and the problem is, she wrote no patrynom end! He was in love too, but when he asked Alexander II to marry her, he said no. The lovers were heart broken, etc etc. I'm wonder who this Nicholas was. All I know is he eventually married....
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: ashdean on October 31, 2011, 11:49:29 AM
Reading Julia Dehn's book posted on this website, I noticed that there were  some passages in French, in the otherwise all English text. That implies that the original text was not in French. Because if it realy were a translation from French into English then the translator would not have left thouse couple of passages in French. Also, once or twice Lili (Julia) refers her English language readers directly. On the other hand, Anna Vyrubova has mentioned that during her time at the palace, Lili Dehn did not speak any English.
I am sure I have read that Lili as a child had a English governess...Miss Ripe.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: blessOTMA on October 31, 2011, 09:20:19 PM
It's certainly  not mandatory, but I would think anyone that close to Alix had to know some English. It always intrigued me that  AV spoke English . This would give one a leg up with AF
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Sunny on November 01, 2011, 04:40:17 AM
It's certainly  not mandatory, but I would think anyone that close to Alix had to know some English. It always intrigued me that  AV spoke English . This would give one a leg up with AF

You're right, all the letters from Alix to AV were in english. AV knew operfectly english, i'm sure. I know english, as you can see, but it's not easy for me to read Alix's handwriting. I really can't understand the letters, LOL.
Maybe LIli knew english too. Evene because Alix's russian was far from perfect, and she would be in trouble going on speaking only in russian, IMHO.
In his accounts, Pankratov rememebered that Alix's russian was correct, but she had a strong accent and it was clear that russian was hard for her
I'm using my own words to quote from: The fall of the R, page 261. The exact quote is: AF pronounced Russian words with a strong accent, and it was noticeable tha she had hard time with the spoken Russian language. But all her children spoke excellent Russian.

So it's easy tha Lili, as a noble russian woman, spoke good english.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: blessOTMA on November 01, 2011, 08:22:05 PM
ButSo it's easy tha Lili, as a noble russian woman, spoke good english.
Actually it makes sense since English nannies had been in vogue for some time at that point ...as well as English business managers .  Both Lili and Anya could of had one
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Sunny on November 02, 2011, 01:32:51 AM
ButSo it's easy tha Lili, as a noble russian woman, spoke good english.
Actually it makes sense since English nannies had been in vogue for some time at that point ...as well as English business managers .  Both Lili and Anya could of had one

Perfectly right. A well educated russian woman of the time surely had a english nanny. Evene Lev Tolstoj had one!
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Kalafrana on November 02, 2011, 02:23:24 AM
English tutors and governesses were also very fashionable.

Ann
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: blessOTMA on November 03, 2011, 11:44:45 AM
English tutors and governesses were also very fashionable.

Ann
Indeed a very interesting aspect to Russian history at this time
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 19, 2012, 08:53:13 PM
Might I point out that in April of 2004, on a different thread ("Associates of Nicholas and Alexandra"), Julia Dehn's granddaughter posted an account of Lili's later life.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=138.msg2973#msg2973

I believe that that was her only post on the Forum.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 19, 2012, 09:28:34 PM
And this autobiographical account by Lili Dehn's son, Alexander (AKA: Titi) has been posted here on the Forum before, but here it is again, so that you need not hunt for it.
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/v/o/n/Holger-Von-dehn/FILE/0001page.html

Unfortunately, it breaks off after his eleventh birthday while they were in England.

In reply to some of the other questions posed above, we can add a bit more.

At the time that the Empress and Lili were friends, Lili did not speak English well, so they communicated in French and Russian.

When, in her book, Lili reports the Empress' words in French, she is conveying the Empress' actual words to her. That is why she retained the French.

Of course, once the Dehns moved to England, she learned the language. In the 1960s she and Mr. Brewster corresponded in English.

I don't believe that Lili and A. A. Vyrubova ever met again after the Revolution, but they did correspond. Lili Dehn's descendants still have that correspondence. They are trying to decide what to do with it. Depositing it in the Beinecke Library at Yale would be a logical choice, but that is up to them.

Lili's daughter, Mary, who was living in the USA, passed away in Feb. 2007.

One of J. A. Dehn's great-granddaughters is named "Lili" in her honor.

One branch of the family still has the icon of our Saviour with which the Empress blessed Lili at their last parting in the Alexander Palace. They have agreed to photograph it and allow us to use it as an illustration in our book. It bears an inscription on the back in the Empress' handwriting.

Mr. Brewster gave us one of the printed obituary cards announcing her death and funeral.

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_JADehnObituary.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=JADehnObituary.jpg)

Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Kalafrana on January 20, 2012, 01:37:21 AM
Interesting. On a slight tangent, a great friend of mine who died in 2003 knew Lili Dehn's son through work. Alexander Dehn, who was known to his British contacts as Alec, acted as agent for the shipbuilders Vosper Thorneycroft in Venezuela, and, I think, elsewhere in Latin America. My chum was in Venezuela doing business for Vospers in the early 1960s when he managed to get bitten by a rabid dog, and spent a fortnight staying with the Dehns while having a very unpleasant series of anti-rabies injections in the stomach (fortunately, rabies prevention has moved on since then!)

Ann
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: rudy3 on January 20, 2012, 04:09:04 AM
As to: "At the time that the Empress and Lili were friends, Lili did not speak English well, so they communicated in French and Russian."

On November 8th 1913 the Empress wrote from Livadia a four page letter to Lili in English....
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 21, 2012, 10:28:25 AM
Whatever...

I based my comment on the fact that several times in her book Lili Dehn states that the Empress spoke to her in French; Lili, when quoting the Empress directly, retains the French; and, A. A. Vyrubova, who was ill at the time of the abdication, quotes Lili's book in her own book, adding a parenthetical remark concerning Lili's lack of a knowledge of English.

Memories of the Russian Court, pp. 208-209:

...I could not be with her in that hour of woe, nor did I even see her until the following morning. It was my parents who broke the news to me, almost too ill and too cloudy of mind to comprehend it. Mme. Dehn, who was with the Empress on the evening when Grand Duke Paul arrived with the fatal tidings, has described the scene when the brokenhearted Empress left the Grand Duke and returned to her own room.
"Her face was distorted with agony, her eyes were full of tears. She tottered rather than walked, and I rushed forward and supported her until she reached the writing table between the windows. She leaned heavily against it, and taking my hands in hers she said brokenly: 'Abdique'
I could hardly believe my ears. I waited for her next words. They were scarcely audible. At last [still speaking in French, for Mme. Dehn spoke no English] 'Poor darling - alone there and suffering - My God! What he must have suffered!' "
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Maria the Beautiful on December 06, 2016, 08:27:21 PM
In her book "The Real Tsaritsa" Lili Dehn refers to her  home town as "Revovka".  I tried to find this on Google Earth and only came up with "Revivka".  Can someone tell me if these are referring to the same place.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: NicolasG on December 07, 2016, 08:48:52 AM
In her book "The Real Tsaritsa" Lili Dehn refers to her  home town as "Revovka".  I tried to find this on Google Earth and only came up with "Revivka".  Can someone tell me if these are referring to the same place.  Thanks.

"Revivka" is the Ukrainian name, "Revovka" is Russian. Lili Dehn writes that her home town was in what was called "Little Russia" then, today Ukraine. But there are at least two villages with the same name Revivka-Revovka.

1. Revivka, Cherkasy oblast, Ukraine. Location:   49° 3′ 21″ N, 32° 1′ 33″ E

2. Revivka, Poltava oblast, Ukraine. Location:     49° 10′ 37″ N, 33° 44′ 21″ E

As you can see, they are not that far away, but according to some details Lili Dehn gives in her book, I think that the Revivka that you are looking for is the second one, in the Poltava oblast.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: JGP on December 07, 2016, 10:03:42 AM
In agreement with NicolasG; it is the latter...

Revivka, Kremenchuts'kyi District, Poltavs'ka Oblast, Ukraine
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Maria the Beautiful on December 07, 2016, 11:53:45 AM
Thanks NicholasG and JGP.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Превед on December 07, 2016, 06:18:27 PM
In her book "The Real Tsaritsa" Lili Dehn refers to her  home town as "Revovka".  I tried to find this on Google Earth and only came up with "Revivka".  Can someone tell me if these are referring to the same place.  Thanks.

"Revivka" is the Ukrainian name, "Revovka" is Russian. Lili Dehn writes that her home town was in what was called "Little Russia" then, today Ukraine. But there are at least two villages with the same name Revivka-Revovka.

1. Revivka, Cherkasy oblast, Ukraine. Location:   49° 3′ 21″ N, 32° 1′ 33″ E

2. Revivka, Poltava oblast, Ukraine. Location:     49° 10′ 37″ N, 33° 44′ 21″ E

As you can see, they are not that far away, but according to some details Lili Dehn gives in her book, I think that the Revivka that you are looking for is the second one, in the Poltava oblast.

Based on the hits you get linking Ревовка with the ancestors of Dehn who owned it (Field Marshall Кутузов / Kutuzov, Кудашев / Kudashev, Пилар фон Пильхау / Pilar von Pilchau and Хорват / Horvath), I am inclined to think it is the village in modern Cherkasy oblast. Not only is it bigger than the small hamlet in Poltava oblast (and very picturesque - see pictures on Google Maps: here (https://www.google.no/maps/place/Revivka,+Cherkas'ka+Lozova,+Ukraina/@49.066218,32.024481,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1s97822735!2e1!3e10!6s%2F%2Flh3.googleusercontent.com%2Fproxy%2FeZ0ER6oFcOp-g4YDYcXMa6C3x_TYfaSk8CXrQv9nn6BCvA5OPXzl7ZWtl30Yp_84V_htw7lU_EqbGQg6ZSnCcsx31jb7Ag%3Dw392-h261!7i5066!8i3376!4m5!3m4!1s0x40d1175badbf9f11:0x76c76ff385a7f30a!8m2!3d49.0536963!4d32.0317356!6m1!1e1), although with no trace of a manor house), but online sources (like this Russian Wikipedia article listing Lili von Dehn's birthplace (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BD,_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BB_%D0%98%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87_%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD#.D0.A1.D0.B5.D0.BC.D1.8C.D1.8F)) link it to and place it in the Alexandriyskiy uyezd, based in the neighbouring town Александрия / Олександрія, which today lies in another oblast. In Imperial times the Alexandriyskiy uyezd, including the Kamyanskaya volost based in Kamyanska right next to Revovka, was in the Khersonskaya Guberniya. Tellingly the noble Horvaths, Dehn's maternal family, who owned Revovka, were registered in the provincial nobilities of the Kharkov, Kherson and Kursk gouvernements, not Poltava.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: NicolasG on December 08, 2016, 01:23:24 PM
In her book "The Real Tsaritsa" Lili Dehn refers to her  home town as "Revovka".  I tried to find this on Google Earth and only came up with "Revivka".  Can someone tell me if these are referring to the same place.  Thanks.

"Revivka" is the Ukrainian name, "Revovka" is Russian. Lili Dehn writes that her home town was in what was called "Little Russia" then, today Ukraine. But there are at least two villages with the same name Revivka-Revovka.

1. Revivka, Cherkasy oblast, Ukraine. Location:   49° 3′ 21″ N, 32° 1′ 33″ E

2. Revivka, Poltava oblast, Ukraine. Location:     49° 10′ 37″ N, 33° 44′ 21″ E

As you can see, they are not that far away, but according to some details Lili Dehn gives in her book, I think that the Revivka that you are looking for is the second one, in the Poltava oblast.

Based on the hits you get linking Ревовка with the ancestors of Dehn who owned it (Field Marshall Кутузов / Kutuzov, Кудашев / Kudashev, Пилар фон Пильхау / Pilar von Pilchau and Хорват / Horvath), I am inclined to think it is the village in modern Cherkasy oblast. Not only is it bigger than the small hamlet in Poltava oblast (and very picturesque - see pictures on Google Maps: here (https://www.google.no/maps/place/Revivka,+Cherkas'ka+Lozova,+Ukraina/@49.066218,32.024481,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1s97822735!2e1!3e10!6s%2F%2Flh3.googleusercontent.com%2Fproxy%2FeZ0ER6oFcOp-g4YDYcXMa6C3x_TYfaSk8CXrQv9nn6BCvA5OPXzl7ZWtl30Yp_84V_htw7lU_EqbGQg6ZSnCcsx31jb7Ag%3Dw392-h261!7i5066!8i3376!4m5!3m4!1s0x40d1175badbf9f11:0x76c76ff385a7f30a!8m2!3d49.0536963!4d32.0317356!6m1!1e1), although with no trace of a manor house), but online sources (like this Russian Wikipedia article listing Lili von Dehn's birthplace (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BD,_%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BB_%D0%98%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87_%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD#.D0.A1.D0.B5.D0.BC.D1.8C.D1.8F)) link it to and place it in the Alexandriyskiy uyezd, based in the neighbouring town Александрия / Олександрія, which today lies in another oblast. In Imperial times the Alexandriyskiy uyezd, including the Kamyanskaya volost based in Kamyanska right next to Revovka, was in the Khersonskaya Guberniya. Tellingly the noble Horvaths, Dehn's maternal family, who owned Revovka, were registered in the provincial nobilities of the Kharkov, Kherson and Kursk gouvernements, not Poltava.

I am relying on the Ukrainian Wikipedia and Wikipedia is not the most reliable source in any language.

The article on the Ukrainian Wikipedia on the Revivka located in the modern Cherkasy oblast includes an extract from a book published in 1864 that lists the sucessive owners of the village, up to that year:

Penkovsky - Davidov - Captain Zvolinsky - Tripolsky

There is no mention of Kutuzov or Horvath.

Lili Dehn also mentions a piece of local folklore in her book. There was a local story about how when Tatar marauders attacked the village in their plunder raids, women and children of a village called Beletskovka used to wade into the water and hide under the green lily leaves. There is a village with that name (Bilets'kivka, in Ukrainian) in the Kremenchuts'ky District (rayon), Poltava oblast, that is, the same district and oblast one of the two "Revivka" candidates is located.

The distance from Beletskovka - Bilets'kivka to the Revivka located in Poltava oblast is less than 50 km, the distance to the Revivka located in Cherkasy oblast is around 120 km. So I think it is much more likely that she had heard that story if she lived in the latter (the Poltava one).
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: JGP on December 08, 2016, 09:05:02 PM
Interesting  Превед and NicholasG!  Two genealogy websites; my heritage and geni) annotate Lili Dehn's birthplace as Revivka, Kremenchuts'kyi District, Poltavs'ka Oblast, Ukraine although they certainly could be incorrect. 

The two Revivkas/Revovkas are on opposite sides of the Dnieper River:
1. Revivka, Cherkasy oblast, Ukraine. Location:   49° 3′ 21″ N, 32° 1′ 33″ E  WEST Side

2. Revivka, Poltava oblast, Ukraine. Location:     49° 10′ 37″ N, 33° 44′ 21″ E EAST Side

I looked at both "Revivkas/Revovkas" on Google Maps and the Revivka/Revovka in Poltava/Poltavs'ka Oblast appears to be in closer proximity to the Dnieper River which Lily Dehn mentions in her book "The Real Tsaritsa" which is online on this site and an interesting read; http://www.alexanderpalace.org/realtsaritsa/contents.html. 

In addition, her son Alexander Leonid von Dehn wrote in a history of his family "The Horvaths Estates, my Mother's family on the Maternal side, have already been mentioned before, but, I will now describe the two Estates which I knew - my Great-Grandmother's estate, Revovka, near the small town Novo-Georgievsk, and my Grandmother's Estate, Beletskovka, where I spent many a happy summer in my childhood."  This is also a really interesting and informative read;   http://www.genealogy.com/ftm/v/o/n/Holger-Von-dehn/FILE/0001page.html

Novo-Georgievsk was a city in Ukraine that since 1961 was flooded by the Kremenchuk water reservoir; Wikipedia lists its Grid Coordinates as 49° 6′ 0″ N, 33° 7′ 0″ E.  Plotting the grid coordinates for both Revivkas/Revovkas and the grid coordinates for the former city of Novo-Georgievsk (NG) on Google Maps, the Revivka/Revovka in Poltava also appears closer to the former city of NG.

However, as you mentioned the Horvaths, Dehn's maternal family, who owned Revovka, were registered in the provincial nobilities of the Kharkov, Kherson and Kursk gouvernements, not Poltava, would infer you are correct. 

I love a good mystery. 

Kind regards, JGP

Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Превед on December 08, 2016, 10:46:43 PM
I love a good mystery.

Yes, fun isn't it! I was just going to write that naturally we had a hard time finding it and agreeing, because, as you say, beating me to it, the (third) Revovka we are looking for is as lost as the Tsarist Empire, flooded by the Kremenchuk reservoir! It's listed on this Wikipedia page about the Novogeorgiyevskaya volost (https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B3%D1%96%D1%94%D0%B2%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C), to which it belonged:. Apparantly it was also known as Хорвата / Horvatha and had 831 inhabitans, 126 farms, an Orthodox church, a brickworks and fairs in imperial times.

Here is a biography (https://books.google.no/books?id=VQ_Kq5bgKVsC&pg=PA15&dq=revovka+Litvinki&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwik-f7JpebQAhUDIMAKHYGCDeMQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=revovka%20Litvinki&f=false) of a Horvath cousin of Lili Dehn's which has pictures of the estate (see next page), apparantly called Litvinki, to the south of Revovka. The books also notes that the family had large estates in Latvia, which is somewhat curious when Litvinki can mean "Lithuanians" in Russian or Ukrainian.

And yes, Beletskovka / Bilets'kivka, just a little further east, was also part of the Horvath inheritance from Field Marshall Kutuzov, who had received both estates from a grateful tsar.

BTW did Lili Dehn's mother remarry to someone called Belitskiy and was he linked to the second estate by name? Why did her father have a Muslim middle name - Alexander? Adamovich Ismail Selim Bey Smolskiy?
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: JGP on December 08, 2016, 11:46:33 PM
Her second marriage was to Colonel Michael Zaharovitch Veletskli who was Commanding Colonel of an Infantry Regiment, stationed in the small town of Novogeorgievsk, near Revovka.  Revovka again; LOL.

Lili Dehn stated in her book "My father was Ismail Selim Bek Smolsky, whose ancestors hailed from Lithuanian Tartary".

Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Превед on December 09, 2016, 08:11:05 AM
Her second marriage was to Colonel Michael Zaharovitch Veletskli
Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I misread the Cyrillic B as a b...

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Lili Dehn stated in her book "My father was Ismail Selim Bek Smolsky, whose ancestors hailed from Lithuanian Tartary".
Ah, OK, interesting. I also note that Alexander von Dehn writes in his memoirs that his grandfather's estate at Yalta was called Selimbek.
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Kalafrana on December 10, 2016, 02:07:39 AM
I can't contribute anything to this discussion, but I'm thoroughly enjoying this flurry of erudition after a long quiet period!

I had never heard of the Lithuanian Tartary. More info please.

Ann
Title: Re: Julia (Lili) Dehn (1885-1963), friend of Empress Alexandra
Post by: Превед on December 10, 2016, 07:43:41 AM
I had never heard of the Lithuanian Tartary. More info please.

My knowledge of this subject is very limited and I can only redirect to you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars). The Muslim Tartar aspect is another fascinating aspect of the often ignored Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which is rather extraordinary in having had pagans, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholics Lutherans, Calvinists, Jews and Muslims living side by side in relative harmony.

BTW the whole lax attitude to religions denominations makes me smilingly think of this boisterous blasphemic German drinking folk song I recently came across: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfuQX-CaQg8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfuQX-CaQg8), whose main theme is: Who would want to be the Pope swimming in indulgence money drinking the best wine when one cannot carouse with the fair sex, and who would want to be the mighty Sultan living in a harem / brothel and abstain from drinking wine as prescribed by the Quran. Much better to be half Pope and half Sultan and drink wine with beautiful women.... :-)