Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => The Russian Revolution => Topic started by: solnitsa on July 28, 2009, 05:57:23 AM

Title: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: solnitsa on July 28, 2009, 05:57:23 AM
Hi - I live in Brussels and want to find the house where General Wrangel died in 1928. Can somebody help me to find the adress?
Solnitsa
Brussels, Belgium
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Alixz on July 28, 2009, 08:29:42 AM
You can do a lot a research on General Wrangel on Google or any other search engine.  I got a lot of hits when I just put in General Wrangel.

Alixz
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: solnitsa on July 28, 2009, 01:18:14 PM
True, and that's what I 've tried. But the detail of the general's adress in Brussels is not mentioned. Therefore I try this method.

solnitsa
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Alixz on July 28, 2009, 01:47:42 PM
I hope someone here will be able to help you.  That is why I moved the thread to this section.  I don't know that the Discussion Thread would have yielded anything.
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Svetabel on July 29, 2009, 01:05:18 AM
General Wrangel lived (and died) at his apartments on avenue Bel-Air, 17 ( near Bois de la Cambre). Next to his house was a Russian Ballet school.
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: solnitsa on July 30, 2009, 12:09:31 AM
That was very fast...Thank you for your help. Do you think it makes sense to dig up the police files from 1928 (unless the baron's death was processed as a natural one) or has everything been published about the question?

Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Svetabel on July 30, 2009, 12:37:32 AM
The Russian sources are convinced that Wrangel was poisoned, but the official cause of the death was tuberculous.
The digging up of the files makes sense if you are really interested in all the circumstances of Wrangel's death.
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 16, 2009, 03:34:59 PM
The Russian sources are convinced that Wrangel was poisoned, but the official cause of the death was tuberculous.
The digging up of the files makes sense if you are really interested in all the circumstances of Wrangel's death.

I am not convinced that the General was poisoned, but I do suspect Stalin in many deaths that were thought to be natural. Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, for instance. I would not be surprised if he had Wrangel killed, as this man killed many of his own friends and family.
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Belochka on October 15, 2009, 02:31:45 AM
The Russian sources are convinced that Wrangel was poisoned, but the official cause of the death was tuberculous.
The digging up of the files makes sense if you are really interested in all the circumstances of Wrangel's death.

I am not convinced that the General was poisoned, but I do suspect Stalin in many deaths that were thought to be natural. Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich, for instance. I would not be surprised if he had Wrangel killed, as this man killed many of his own friends and family.

Indeed, General Wrangel's own family firmly believe that he ingested poison.

Cause of death noted on an "official" soviet document commonly masked the truth.  Lenin's "official cause of death" comes to mind.

Scholars in Russia are presently hypothesizing today whether comrade Stalin was poisoned or not. 

Margarita
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Kalafrana on October 15, 2009, 03:32:15 AM
Was General Wrangel's death sudden or not? The most obvious cause of sudden death from TB is a lung haemorrhage (this is what happened to my father's elder brother in 1932, so much the same time). I don't know whether there are any poisons which would mimic the effects of TB - had he been diagnosed with TB before his death? Of course, it's perfectly possible that he could have had TB but died of something else.
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Belochka on October 15, 2009, 04:52:24 AM
Was General Wrangel's death sudden or not? .

His premature death was certainly not a foreseeable event.

Margarita
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on August 30, 2010, 12:42:38 PM
"Indeed, General Wrangel's own family firmly believe that he ingested poison."
 

I am a new member to this discussion group and in reading the posts on this topic regarding my Grandfather I thought I would set forth those facts that have led the family to believe that his death may not have been due to natural causes. At the time of his death as was indicated in an earlier post he was living in Brussels at the house at Ave, Bel-Air. Apart from his family, living with him was his bat man (Alexander Yudenich). One day there suddenly appeared at the house Alexander's brother who remained behind in Russia after the Civil War and was supposedly a seaman in the Soviet merchant marine. His ship had docked in Rotterdam.  He spoke no French only Russian. He left the next day after his arrival and six months later my Grandfather died. What has always concerned the family were these facts: at that time it was highly unusual that Soviet sailors were permitted liberty without being members of a group yet he was apparently granted individual liberty and appeared at the house by himself; he spoke no French yet was able to make his way to Brussels from Rotterdam (did someone take him?); it was unclear how he found the address where my Grandfather and his family were living (from whom did he receive help?); my Grandfather's death occurred with great rapidity thereafter (there was a diagnosis of TB but the rapid onset of debilitating fevers and death seem to argue in favor of something much more virulent); the two Generals that succeeded my Grandfather as heads of the ROV (Gens. Kutepov and Miller) were both abducted by the NKVD from Paris (cf. The Hidden Conspirators, by G. Vassilchikov); and it is known that the Bolsheviks were experimenting with biological weapons at the time.  To the contrary it should be said that my Grandmother never believed this possibility and, further, that inquiries on this question in the KGB Archives shortly after they were first open by Volkogonov at the behest of my Uncle proved fruitless. However, the subsequent Kutepov and Miller abductions and the questions surrounding this brief visit would seem to tilt the possibility towards Bolshevik action rather than natural causes.     

         
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: AGRBear on September 29, 2010, 12:03:41 PM
I just received Wrangel's book yesterday and haven't had a chance to open it.  I am looking forward to reading it and will have some questions,  because Bear always does  :>).

Welcome to the forum.

AGRBear
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on October 03, 2010, 04:05:13 PM
Which book are you referring to ?  Is it my Grandfather's memoirs (there is an out of print, abridged version published by Robert Speller called Always with Honor ). There was an earlier edition published in English in the late 20s or early 30s. I should tell you that there is a new biography being published by Anthony Kroener which we are awaiting with some anticipation. He has done an amazing amount of research including visiting our old estates, etc. My Uncle Alexis also wrote a biography of his father which is well done and which contains some great photographs.

   
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Kalafrana on October 04, 2010, 03:23:09 AM
Is Anthony Kroener's book being published in English?

Ann
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on October 04, 2010, 09:43:34 AM
Dear Ann:

Yes the Kroener book will be published in English. Unfortunately I don't know the publisher. Its also being published in Russian.

Petr
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: AGRBear on October 04, 2010, 12:03:13 PM
Russia's White Crusader
GENERAL WRANGEL
by
Alexis Wrangel
English

Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on October 04, 2010, 12:46:15 PM
A good read. My Uncle was a surprisingly good writer.

He also wrote a very good book entitled The End of Chivalry published by Hippocrene Books (copyright 1982) describing the last great cavalry battles of the Great War on the Eastern Front including the terrible battle at Kaushen in which my Grandfather won his St. George's Cross and where so many sons of the nobility who were in the Horse Guards  perished.  Serge Beloselsky privately published a history of the Horse Guards in which he details the terrible consequences of that battle (a cavalry charge against an entrenched heavily fortified German position armed with machine guns and holding the high ground not seen since the charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimean War and unfortunately with the same consequences).

Petr       
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on October 05, 2010, 02:57:50 PM
You might also be interested in another book published by my Uncle entitled The End of Chivalry (Hippocrene Books, 1982) about the last great cavalry battles of WWI on the Eastern Front including the battle of Kaushen (August 19, 1914) in East Prussia in which my Grandfather (then a Captain commanding the 3rd Squadron) won his St. Georges Cross and in which many scions of the Russian Nobility who were members of the Horse Guards perished.  There is also an chapter about my Aunt Helen Ivanenko (ne Hoyningen-Huene, grandaughter of the American Ambassador Lathrop and sister of George Hoyningen-Huene the famous photographer) who was a nurse on the Southern front and also won a medal for bravery. Pr. Serge Beloselsky privately published a history of the Horse Guards in which this was well documented.  By the way the earliest published book of my Grandfather's memoirs in English of which I am familiar was published by Williams & Norgate Ltd., 38 Great Ormand Street, London, W.C. 1 in 1929 translated into English by Sophie Goulston.  The memoirs were first published in Germany in Russian in Beloe Dela

Regards,
Petr
   
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: AGRBear on October 05, 2010, 04:34:10 PM

[in part]...
 ...>>>There is also an chapter about my Aunt Helen Ivanenko (ne Hoyningen-Huene, grandaughter of the American Ambassador Lathrop and sister of George Hoyningen-Huene the famous photographer) who was a nurse on the Southern front and also won a medal for bravery.
...<<
Regards,
Petr
  

There is a very good book based on the diary of Florence Farmbourough, and English woman who went to work in Russia in 1908 and became a nurse on the Russian front from 1914-1918,  The title is:  WITH THE ARMIES OF THE TSAR.

When reading this diary,  one realizes what it was like for a woman nurse in real life in a terrible war in a time before modern medicine and helicopters taking the wounded to surgical teams operating in pristine conditions.

AGRBear
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: AGRBear on October 14, 2010, 10:41:20 AM
You might also be interested in another book published by my Uncle entitled The End of Chivalry (Hippocrene Books, 1982) about the last great cavalry battles of WWI on the Eastern Front including the battle of Kaushen (August 19, 1914) in East Prussia in which my Grandfather (then a Captain commanding the 3rd Squadron) won his St. Georges Cross and in which many scions of the Russian Nobility who were members of the Horse Guards perished.  There is also an chapter about my Aunt Helen Ivanenko (ne Hoyningen-Huene, grandaughter of the American Ambassador Lathrop and sister of George Hoyningen-Huene the famous photographer) who was a nurse on the Southern front and also won a medal for bravery. Pr. Serge Beloselsky privately published a history of the Horse Guards in which this was well documented.  By the way the earliest published book of my Grandfather's memoirs in English of which I am familiar was published by Williams & Norgate Ltd., 38 Great Ormand Street, London, W.C. 1 in 1929 translated into English by Sophie Goulston.  The memoirs were first published in Germany in Russian in Beloe Dela

Regards,
Petr
   

While I was waiting for the Comcast to fix our tv cable, I picked up this book which I just received.   Some good information given about the differences between the army under Nicholas II and his grandfathers in the forward.   

The first chapter is about a Cossack running into a group of Germans [WWI]...  Well written.

AGRBear
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: AGRBear on October 22, 2010, 03:18:35 PM
I think that the Civil War was characterized on the White Side by a lot of missed opportunities, too little to late, devious Allied behavior, failure of leadership and frankly incompetence. Starting with missed opportunities, Denikin/Kolchak separately embarked on a race to Moscow rather than first linking up, securing and consolidating their rear areas. This enabled Trotsky to shuttle his forces and take them on one at a time (remember his front lines were shrinking providing him with shorter supply lines and transportation). Such an approach was argued by my Grandfather but he was overruled by Denikin. Secondly, most of the early older commanders Denikin first among them were products of the Russian General Staff and were really products of the 19th century. Fighting a war for the "people's hearts and minds" was alien to them (we take it for granted now ever since the Vietnam war that you have to take into account the political views of the populace although one wonders whether the lesson has sunk in). It was not until my Grandfather took command that a comprehensive political program involving, among other things, land reform, was adopted (my Grandfather's PM was Krivoshein who had worked with Stolypin). The White Army was fighting with arms and supplies scrounged from the countryside and captured from the enemy. Allied assistance was minimal at best. While certainly not excusing anti-Semitic actions taken by certain White Generals I fear they were expressions of the belief held in certain circles that the heavy Jewish presence in the Bolshevik leadership (e.g., Trotsky, Zinoviev, etc.) characterized the views of all Jews yielding to the easy scapegoating of hundreds if not thousands of innocents. It is a blot that I must say my Grandfather tried to erase with his issuance of general orders prohibiting any pogroms (but of course by then it was too late), but its there nonetheless. The following is an excerpt from an interview with my Grandfather published in the Velikaia Rossia July 5th 1920:

"The Jewish Question"

(I asked General Wrangel's opinion on the Jewish Question.)
A recrudescence of animosity against the Jews is indeed apparent among the people, he said. Feeling is running very high indeed, especially among the masses, and is turning rapidly against the source of Bolshevist infection. The people do not single out the culprits; they see Jewish Commissars and Jewish Communists, and do not stop to realize that they form only a part of the Jewish population, and have perhaps broken with the other part who do not share their Communist views nor accept the Soviet Power. I believe that anything tending to a pogrom, and all the propaganda in this direction, is a misfortune for the State, and I will oppose such things by every means in my power. All pogroms demoralize the Army; the troops who take part in them become absolutely undisciplined. In the morning they attack the Jews, in the evening they pillage others. The Jewish Question is an age-old, miserable, difficult problem; it can only be solved by time and social legislation, and then only if this is promulgated by a strong power relying on law and supported by real force.  In a land where anarchy and despotism reign supreme, where the inviolability of person and property is trampled underfoot, the way is open for one part of the population to perpetrate every kind of violence against another. The revival of anti-Semitism amongst the people is perhaps a sign of their loathing for Communism, with which they quite mistakenly identify all the Jews. The recrudescence of Bolshevist activity in any country in the world will bring similar anti-Semitic tendencies in its train."  
Always With Honor, p. 239.


The Allies did not cover themselves with glory (the US sent troops to Vladivostok principally trying to protect Russian gold supplies). Lloyd George flatly sold my Grandfather down the river in order to curry favor with British Labor Unions. My Grandfather was given an ultimatum either enter into an armistice and surrender to the Reds or we'll cut off all aid which in fact happend  (this against the advice of Churchill and the British Commander on scene Gen. Percy). Thankfully the French were somewhat more honorable arranging for the ships that evacuated 150,000 men, women and children from the Crimea (then again they got the Russian Black Sea Fleet in return). 50,000 or so soldiers who elected to remain in the Crimea were shot by Bela Kun the Hungarian Bolshevik head in the Crimea (despite his assurances that no reprisals would be taken). The Poles of course didn't help by settling their war with the Bolsheviks which enabled the Reds to throw the full force of their army against my Grandfather's meager forces in the South. There were outstanding White Generals such as Gens. Koutepov, Miller, Abramov, Babiev and Chatilov among others.   Of course, all this has to be set in context. War weariness after WWI (Elizabeth I think you are partly correct although the role of the left in Britian cannot be discounted) and all the other things that we've been discussing.   Nevertheless, had the Bolsheviks been defeated  much of modern history could have been radically changed and I maintain changed for the better!         
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on November 27, 2010, 04:53:36 PM
The book by Anthony Kröner about my Grandfather, General Peter N. Wrangel has just been published. It is entitled "The White Knight of the Black Sea" and was published by Leuxenhoff Publishing, the Hague, Netherlands, ISBN: 978-90-72922-07-6. I've started it and it looks very well researched. 

Petr
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on April 28, 2013, 03:36:13 PM
25 April 1928 Lt. General Baron Peter N. Wrangel, the last Commander in Chief of the White Russian Army in the Civil War died in Brussels, Belgium. Initially buried in Brussels his remains were later moved and interred in the Holy Trinity Church in Belgrade.

http://humus.livejournal.com/2650943.html?fb_action_ids=618562034838056&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=288381481237582
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Rodney_G. on April 28, 2013, 06:03:42 PM
Petr, I knew your tandfather was a prominent Russian official?/officer, but I hadn't realised he was theBaron Peter Wrangel. Have  you ever visited his grave in Europe?
Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on August 28, 2013, 10:05:25 AM
27 августа - 135 лет со дня рождения Главнокомандующего генерал-лейтенанта барона Петра Николаевича Врангеля, а 25 апреля - 85 лет со дня его кончины.
(27 August - 135 years since the birth of the Commander in Chief Lt. Genenral Baron Peter Nicholaevich Wrangel, and 25 April - 85 years since the day of his death).

His last surviving child age 99 passed away on August 9th. 

https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=586077148105758&set=gm.387326171390941&type=1&theater

Title: Re: General Pyotr Wrangel
Post by: Petr on September 19, 2013, 11:00:20 AM
A new mostly accurate article by Paul Gilbert and Rusky Mir with some nice pictures.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/news/561news.html

Petr