Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: J_Kendrick on July 23, 2009, 09:37:20 AM

Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 23, 2009, 09:37:20 AM

If they ever check the DNA profile of the heir for the confirmation or otherwise of the alleged condition then so be it. But as we know the imperial lines in Europe suffered now and then form this condition and it given all the facts and on the balance of probability the same is for Alexis.


So it is now popularly believed... but it has never been proved by any scientific laboratory means at all... not in Alexei... and not in any of the other very small number of males in just three generations of Queen Victoria's family line who are now popularly believed to have suffered from the disease.

Without any DNA proof at all that the Empress Alexandra may have been a carrier and her son may have been a sufferer of the disease, the still unproven claim of hemophilia in the Royal family line is, in actual fact, nothing more than unconfirmed palace gossip... gossip that has now been told over and over so many times during the past century that everyone now blindly accepts it as truth without ever once daring to question it... and without any scientific or medical laboratory proof of any sort whatsoever.

It is not just Alexei whose alleged hemophilia is in question.  It is the entire story of the alleged hemophilia in those three short generations from Prince Leopold to Alexei that still must be proved with proper scientific laboratory evidence of that long-suspected faulty X-linked gene.

Without that same laboratory proof, the entire hemophilia story -- right from beginning to end -- will never be anything more, in fact, than the unconfirmed palace gossip that it remains to this very day.

... and this subject rightfully belongs in a thread about hemophilia... not in any threads about claimants.

JK

 
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on July 23, 2009, 04:06:55 PM

If they ever check the DNA profile of the heir for the confirmation or otherwise of the alleged condition then so be it. But as we know the imperial lines in Europe suffered now and then form this condition and it given all the facts and on the balance of probability the same is for Alexis.


So it is now popularly believed... but it has never been proved by any scientific laboratory means at all... not in Alexei... and not in any of the other very small number of males in just three generations of Queen Victoria's family line who are now popularly believed to have suffered from the disease.

Without any DNA proof at all that the Empress Alexandra may have been a carrier and her son may have been a sufferer of the disease, the still unproven claim of hemophilia in the Royal family line is, in actual fact, nothing more than unconfirmed palace gossip... gossip that has now been told over and over so many times during the past century that everyone now blindly accepts it as truth without ever once daring to question it... and without any scientific or medical laboratory proof of any sort whatsoever.

It is not just Alexei whose alleged hemophilia is in question.  It is the entire story of the alleged hemophilia in those three short generations from Prince Leopold to Alexei that still must be proved with proper scientific laboratory evidence of that long-suspected faulty X-linked gene.

Without that same laboratory proof, the entire hemophilia story -- right from beginning to end -- will never be anything more, in fact, than the unconfirmed palace gossip that it remains to this very day.

... and this subject rightfully belongs in a thread about hemophilia... not in any threads about claimants.

JK

 

Then prove it!
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 24, 2009, 09:56:55 AM
Without any DNA proof at all that the Empress Alexandra may have been a carrier and her son may have been a sufferer of the disease, the still unproven claim of hemophilia in the Royal family line is, in actual fact, nothing more than unconfirmed palace gossip...

Then prove it!

Easy.

There is no scientific medical laboratory evidence at all to confirm the alleged existence hemophilia in any member of the Royal family line.  None whatsoever. There is not a single known carrier or a single known sufferer in any of the generations of Victoria's family line that follow after Alexei. Not a one. Today, there are more than 700 living members of Victoria's family line and not a single one of those same living members now shows any evidence at all of being either a carrier or a sufferer of the alleged disease.  Not even one.

Of the almost one thousand known descendants of Victoria and Albert, there are only seven suspected sufferers in just three generations and only six suspected carriers in just two generations following immediately after Victoria... barely even one percent of the entire family line.  Just as soon as it has served its purpose to help explain away both the Russian Revolution and the Spanish Civil War, the still unproven allegation of hemophilia in the Royal family line suddenly vanishes without a trace.

... and so again...

It is now up to the investigators who hold the DNA evidence that is said to identify the remains of the Russian Imperial family to now take those same DNA tests that one last extra step that is still needed to confirm long-suspected existence of a faulty X-Linked gene in those same Romanov remains.  Until that day finally comes when those very same investigators have actually fulfilled that obligation... there is still no proof of any kind whatsoever of the alleged existence of hemophilia in the Royal families of Europe who are descended from Queen Victoria

Until those now very necessary tests for the suspected faulty Factor VIII gene are actually done, the still unproven claim of hemophilia in the Royal family line is now and will continue to be... nothing more than unconfirmed palace gossip.

JK


Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on July 24, 2009, 10:21:24 AM
What would have been the reason for Prince Leopold to have been said to have hemophilia when he was born?

He was born 7 April 1853 and was the first of the royal family to have been said to have hemophilia.

Ella of Hesse was born in 1864 and Alix in 1872 -neither of these women's futures could have been even guessed at when Leopold was found to have hemophilia.

No one, at least, without a crystal ball!    ;-)

The Spanish and Russian Revolutions were very far in the future when Leopold was born.  So why say that Leopold had hemophilia?  Insurance against any future debacle?  Or did someone say, (50 years before Alexei was born), let's just set up this family for any future problems by saying that hemophilia was the cause.
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 24, 2009, 10:15:00 PM
What would have been the reason for Prince Leopold to have been said to have hemophilia when he was born?


Ah, yes... well... The key words in that sentence are: "said to have".

Those words are not a statement of fact. That same phrase -- the words "said to have" -- falls under the very definition of the word gossip: easy or unconstrained talk about persons or social events.

Born in 1853, Leopold was not identified publicly as having suffered from a blood disorder until September of 1882... when he was already 29 years old. That is a full nine years after his three-year-old nephew Friedrich (Frittie) had died after falling 20 feet out of a window in 1873.  That also then means that his sister Alice (both Frittie and Empress Alexandra's mother) cannot have been publicly named as a carrier until a full four years after her death from Diptheria in 1878... and Victoria cannot have been publicly named for the first time as the suspected prime carrier of an X-linked disease until the 45th year of her reign... when she was already 63.

... and here is the biggest problem with Leopold's alleged diagnosis...

When he was 13 years old, Leopold started having epileptic-like fits during his most serious episodes of bleeding and fever. Having the kind of seizures that Leopold did during his most severe bleeding episodes is not a symptom of hemophilia. It is a symptom of thrombocytopenia in episodes of hemolytic/aplastic crisis, which is not caused by a Factor VIII clotting deficiency. It is caused by a dangerously low platelet count... which is not hemophilia.

If you have any more questions, I'll make it easy for you. ;-)  Read my paper on this subject in the September 2004 issue of the American Journal of Hematology. Please see: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109593773/ABSTRACT

JK
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on July 25, 2009, 02:54:20 AM
Just who would benefit from creating "court gossip" that the royal family had hemophilia?

Any blood disease, hemophilia or not, would have been a horrible pronouncement on any of the children of a Royal House let alone the heirs as in Russia and Spain.  Was this other diagnosis even heard of in the 1800s?  Medicine was a long way then from what it is now.

And I still want to know why you believe it incumbent on those who have the DNA material to prove your theory for you?

Doesn't it usually work that the person who is the unbeliever has to do the proving?  As did Richard Schweitzer when he had to accept or reject the conclusions of the DNA tests on Anna Anderson?  He rejected the conclusions, but it was now his turn to prove that the original DNA tests were faulty, not the job of those who held the material and had already tested in so many times?

As FA said earlier why doesn't someone just put up the $1000 and get that tooth tested?  $1000 seems small change if you can change every history book in the world.
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 25, 2009, 09:38:12 AM

 I still want to know why you believe it incumbent on those who have the DNA material to prove your theory for you?


It is not "my theory" -- as you put it -- that I am saying they should prove.

It is the still unproven medical claim of history that they are now obliged to confirm.

Once again...

To this very day, there is no laboratory proof whatsoever to confirm the identity of the long-suspected blood disease that is claimed to have existed in just three short generations of Victoria's family line.

Now that the Ekaterinburg remains are identified, it is incumbent upon those same DNA investigators to finish the job properly and to confirm the presence of that long-suspected faulty X-linked gene once and for all.

After all...

If you, yourself, had been told that there was evidence of a possible genetic blood disorder in your own family line... then would you not want to ensure that every single laboratory test that is possible was done to confirm the identity of that disease?

Or...

Would you just be perfectly satisfied to accept what somebody else had told you they suspected the blood disease in your family line might be... without ever daring to question what they had told you... and without ever having had any proper scientific medical laboratory testing done at all to confirm those same suspicions?

I very much doubt it.

The tests must be done.  Otherwise, the hemophilia story as it stands will continue to be nothing more than the historically popular hearsay that it is to this day.  Nothing more than unconfirmed palace gossip.

JK
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: kadang on July 25, 2009, 10:20:16 AM

 I still want to know why you believe it incumbent on those who have the DNA material to prove your theory for you?


It is not "my theory" -- as you put it -- that I am saying they should prove.

It is the still unproven medical claim of history that they are now obliged to confirm.

Now that the Ekaterinburg remains are identified, it is incumbent upon those same DNA investigators to finish the job properly and to confirm the presence of that long-suspected faulty X-linked gene once and for all.

JK

I agree with Alixz (and others) here - Mr. Kendrick, it seems as if you are constantly moving the goal post. There is now the strongest evidence available that all members of the family are identified. There is even a Y-STR result from living Romanov relatives to confirm the results.

So, it looks like you have "lost" the game, and now demand that additional testing must occur to "prove" that hemophilia was present. In other words, let's now play "best two out of three." Oh, and if the scientists decide not to play, then you can declare yourself the winner.

If you really want to be taken seriously, simply provide an authentic DNA test confirming the Y-STR, mtDNA, and proper STRs from Tammet compared to Nicholas and Alexandra. THEN you may generate some support to confirm the hemophilia testing. Better still, pony up the extra cash to have Tammet's DNA tested for thrombocytopenia.

To quote someone on this board, "The tests must be done."

Otherwise, your rants about the need for additional testing remind me of the line from Macbeth - full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 26, 2009, 09:57:53 AM

I agree with Alixz (and others) here - Mr. Kendrick, it seems as if you are constantly moving the goal post. There is now the strongest evidence available that all members of the family are identified. There is even a Y-STR result from living Romanov relatives to confirm the results.


Let's get one thing perfectly straight.

I am not talking here about Tammet... nor any other claimant, for that matter.

I am only talking here about the historically popular but still totally unproven claim that Alexei had suffered from hemophilia.

Given that, in your words, "There is now the strongest evidence available that all members of the family are identified"... It is now entirely incumbent upon those very same researchers who have identified those same Ekaterinburg remains to complete their investigation by now testing those same remains in the laboratory to finally confirm... once and for all... whether or not Alexandra actually was a carrier of a faulty X-linked gene... and whether or not her son Alexei actually did inherit that same long-suspected faulty X-linked gene.

I am not the one, as you claim here, who keeps moving the goal posts.  I am talking about the issue of hemophilia here... and only about the issue of hemophilia... and nothing else.  This is the very reason why I had deliberately said several times when I first entered this conversation that this discussion rightfully belongs in a thread about hemophilia... and not in a thread about any of the claimants.

I must ask...  Why is everyone now so very unbelievably determined to deliberately avoid actually doing the tests on those same identified Ekaterinburg remains for the now very necessary evidence of that long-suspected faulty X-linked gene?

I'm really very surprised.  I would have imagined that all of those people who regularly follow the Romanov story would eagerly have jumped at the chance to actually find that faulty gene and finally confirm all of their pet theories about Alexei's medical history in which they so fervently believe.

So, what is everyone so afraid of?  Why is everyone now trying so hard to avoid actually having to do the tests on those identified Ekaterinburg remains for that faulty X-linked gene?

Is everyone afraid that they might not actually find it?  Is everyone afraid that the tests might show that there are no faults at all in Alexandra's Factor VIII gene?  Is everyone afraid that the tests might prove that the Tsarevich Alexei was not a hemophiliac after all?

Do the tests.  That's the only way we'll ever know the truth.

JK
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Forum Admin on July 26, 2009, 10:37:49 AM
Wow, it is an amazing turn of events, I'm glad I'm sitting down!

I actually have to defend JK on this one  (seriously, mark this down in your calendar)...

He really is NOT talking about the identity of the remains.  He IS honestly, talking about simply testing the Alexandra and OTMAA remains for the genetic marker for Haemophilia, nothing more.  I don't see the need to be as pressing as he does, BUT, he has the point that it would be of some small scientific interest to have the conclusive genetic proof...

Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 26, 2009, 10:51:32 PM
Wow, it is an amazing turn of events, I'm glad I'm sitting down!

I actually have to defend JK on this one  (seriously, mark this down in your calendar)...

He really is NOT talking about the identity of the remains.  He IS honestly, talking about simply testing the Alexandra and OTMAA remains for the genetic marker for Haemophilia, nothing more.  I don't see the need to be as pressing as he does, BUT, he has the point that it would be of some small scientific interest to have the conclusive genetic proof...



I'm glad I'm sitting down, too.

I may never recover from the shock!

Bolshoi Spasiba, Rob! ;-)

JK

Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on July 27, 2009, 09:36:14 AM
I would say that no one is afraid.  I would say that no one feels the need to do anymore testing.  Those who have the remains have no question in their minds and so why would they test?

Again, if Mr. Kendrick is so sure of the need to have the testing done, then why doesn't he apply to the appropriate agencies and have the testing done himself?  Is it because he is afraid that his long held beliefs will be proven to be wrong?

Again, I ask, why would it be incumbent upon those who have no doubts to test their own information?  I feel it should be incumbent upon those who hold doubts to have the testing done.  This could have been solved to every one's satisfaction, including Mr. Kendrick's, if he would just do the leg work and the phone work and the fax work himself and ask those who hold the remains to test (at Mr. Kendrick's own expense since he is so sure that the hemophilia reports are wrong) those remains for the genes and get his answers.

Personally, I have no doubts.  I see no conspiracy. And since what is at stake is only the reporting of history (which is almost always biased) I would not be bothered with any testing, especially if I held the remains and knew that they were the remains of the Imperial Family.  In the "dust bin" of history that is all that truly matters.


"To give an accurate description of what has never occurred is not merely the proper occupation of the historian, but the inalienable privilege of any man of parts and culture."
Oscar Wilde (1856 - 1900) Anglo-Irish "playwright, novelist"
"Gilbert, in ""The Critic as Artist,"" pt. 1 (published in Intentions, 1891
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 28, 2009, 03:04:28 AM

Those who have the remains have no question in their minds and so why would they test?


So you can read their minds, can you?  I'm impressed. ;-)

Why would they do the test?

How about this for a reason?

... Because the Moscow prosecutor Vladimir Soloviev had publicly committed them to doing the tests for the suspected faulty Factor VIII Gene when this latest DNA investigation was started two summers ago.

... and they have yet to fulfil that commitment.


Quote

Again, if Mr. Kendrick is so sure of the need to have the testing done, then why doesn't he apply to the appropriate agencies and have the testing done himself?


I'm not the one with the bones.  They are.  I'm not the one who has been who has been publicly committed by Moscow's head of the Romanov investigation Vladimir Soloviev to complete that same testing for the suspected faulty gene. They are.

Quote

 Is it because he is afraid that his long held beliefs will be proven to be wrong?


Oh, Come on... ;-)

If I were afraid of what the tests for that long-suspected faulty Factor VIII gene are actually going to show when they are finally completed ... would I really be here calling for the tests to be done?

Not very likely.

I'm fully confident that those same Factor VIII tests on the Romanov remains are certain to produce a very different end result than the majority now expects. ;-)

JK
Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on July 30, 2009, 10:32:24 AM
I did a little research of my own on platelet disorders:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/201722-overview

Autoimmune thrombocytopenias
Immune thrombocytopenic purpura1,2,3

Immune thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP) is one of the most common autoimmune disorders. It occurs in 2 distinct clinical types, an acute self-limiting form observed almost exclusively in children (5 cases per 100,000 persons), and a chronic form, observed mostly in adults (3-5 cases per 100,000 persons) and rarely in children.

Acute ITP is a disease that occurs exclusively in children. It affects both sexes equally and has a peak incidence in children aged 3-5 years.   Most patients have a history of an antecedent acute viral syndrome.

The onset is sudden, with symptoms and signs depending on the platelet count. Bleeding is usually mild, unless the platelet count drops below 20,000/無. With platelet counts from 20,000/無 to 50,000/無, petechiae and ecchymoses are observed following mild trauma. With platelet counts less than 10,000/無, generalized petechiae, ecchymoses, and mucosal bleeding occur. With platelet counts less than 2000/無, widespread ecchymoses, hemorrhagic bullae, and retinal hemorrhage occur.

Chronic ITP4,5,6

This condition is typically observed in adults aged 20-40 years. It has an insidious onset, and a history of an antecedent infection need not be present. Unlike childhood ITP, chronic ITP is more common in females than in males. As in childhood ITP, the bleeding manifestations depend on the platelet count.

Reasons that Alexei did not have ITP:

Acute version equally effects both boys and girls.

Chronic version in more common in females that in males.

Alexei had none of these external bleeding symptoms  "widespread ecchymoses, hemorrhagic bullae, and retinal hemorrhage"  (Believe me, you don't want to take a look at pictures of these symptoms, they are horrific.)

Pathophysiology
Platelet disorders lead to defects in primary hemostasis and have signs and symptoms different from coagulation factor deficiencies (disorders of secondary hemostasis). The body's reaction to vessel wall injury is rapid adhesion of platelets to the subendothelium. The initial hemostatic plug, composed primarily of platelets, is stabilized further by a fibrin mesh generated in secondary hemostasis. The arrest of bleeding in a superficial wound, such as the bleeding time wound, almost exclusively results from the primary hemostatic plug.

Hence, primary hemostatic disorders are characterized by prolonged bleeding time, and the characteristic physical examination findings are petechiae and purpura  In comparison, defects in secondary hemostasis exhibit delayed deep bleeding (eg, muscles and joints) and the characteristic physical examination finding is hemarthrosis. Hemarthrosis and muscle hematomas are not present in primary hemostatic disorders   (But they are in hemophilia.)

petechiae and purpura  (Anybody watch CSI -   Petechial Hemorrhaging?)  petechiae are red spots just under the skin and purpura are small "bumps" of blood that can be palpated (that is felt and moved by the doctor's hands)


Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on July 30, 2009, 11:30:24 AM
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/dci/Diseases/hemophilia/hemophilia_signs.html



What Are the Signs and Symptoms of Hemophilia?
The major signs and symptoms of hemophilia are excessive bleeding and easy bruising.

Excessive Bleeding
The extent of bleeding depends on the type and severity of the hemophilia. Children who have mild hemophilia may not have symptoms unless they have excessive bleeding from a dental procedure, an accident, or surgery. Males who have severe hemophilia may bleed heavily after circumcision.

Bleeding can occur on the body's surface (external bleeding) or inside the body (internal bleeding).

Signs of excessive external bleeding include:

Bleeding in the mouth from a cut or bite or from cutting or losing a tooth
Nosebleeds for no obvious reason
Heavy bleeding from a minor cut
Bleeding from a cut that resumes after stopping for a short time
Signs of internal bleeding include blood in the urine (from bleeding in the kidneys or bladder) and blood in the stool (from bleeding in the intestines or stomach).

Bleeding in the Joints
Bleeding in the knees, elbows, or other joints is another common form of internal bleeding in people who have hemophilia. This bleeding can occur without obvious injury.

At first, the bleeding causes tightness in the joint with no real pain or any visible signs of bleeding. The joint then becomes swollen, hot to touch, and painful to bend.

Swelling continues as bleeding continues. Eventually, movement in the joint is temporarily lost. Pain can be severe. Joint bleeding that isn't quickly treated can permanently damage the joint.

Bleeding in the Brain
Internal bleeding in the brain is a very serious complication of hemophilia that can happen after a simple bump on the head or a more serious injury. The signs and symptoms of bleeding in the brain include:

Long-lasting, painful headaches or neck pain or stiffness
Repeated vomiting
Sleepiness or changes in behavior
Sudden weakness or clumsiness of the arms or legs or problems walking
Double vision
Convulsions or seizures


What is the difference between hemophilia and thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura?

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2663608


Among the autoimmune diseases that affect human blood, hemolytic anemia and autoimmune thrombocytopenia are the most frequent and the best known from a diagnostic and therapeutic point of view. More seldom, autoantibodies may develop against components of the hemostasis system. Some of them neutralize proteins involved in the regulation of thrombus formation, causing acquired thrombotic tendencies due to autoantibodies inactivating naturally occurring anticoagulants such as protein C and protein S,1,2 or the von Willebrand factor cleaving protease ADAMTS13.3,4 On the other hand, autoantibodies directed against procoagulant factors cause a bleeding tendency, such as acquired hemophilia A due to the development of anti-factor VIII (FVIII) autoantibodies (autoantibodies against procoagulant factors other than FVIII are rare).5

Acquired hemophilia has a yearly incidence of no more than one case per million in the general population, and affects not only patients with pre-existing autoimmune diseases (systemic lupus erythematosus, rheumatoid arthritis, myasthenia, Sjogren syndrome, hyperthyroidism and others) but also (and more frequently) previously healthy people. Typically, there are two peaks of age of onset of acquired hemophilia: in the young adult, mainly in women who develop this complication in the post-partum period; and in the elderly, usually with no underlying disease.5

Acquired hemophilia is much more clinically severe than congenital hemophilia, and is more difficult to diagnose, also because cases are seen in an array of clinical settings that are not usually equipped to tackle them. Even the specialized center, however, sees a very limited number of cases, so that is difficult to acquire a truly wide experience in acquired hemophilia. It is not surprising, therefore, that nine experts from three continents chose to put together their experiences in an article meant to provide consensus recommendations on the diagnosis and treatment of acquired hemophilia.6

Title: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Forum Admin on July 30, 2009, 03:33:40 PM
I'm going to ask that specific discussion of haemophilia take place in a separate thread.  Please split off the appropriate posts and start there. It has become OT here.

Thanks
FA
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 31, 2009, 09:26:28 AM
I did a little research of my own on platelet disorders:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/201722-overview

Autoimmune thrombocytopenias
Immune thrombocytopenic purpura1,2,3

Immune thrombocytopenic purpura (ITP) is one of the most common autoimmune disorders. It occurs in 2 distinct clinical types, an acute self-limiting form observed almost exclusively in children (5 cases per 100,000 persons), and a chronic form, observed mostly in adults (3-5 cases per 100,000 persons) and rarely in children.

Acute ITP is a disease that occurs exclusively in children. It affects both sexes equally and has a peak incidence in children aged 3-5 years.   Most patients have a history of an antecedent acute viral syndrome.

Oh, dear. Here we go again...

There are a number of blood disorders that include the word Thrombocytopenia in their names... but...

Thrombocytopenia by itself is not a disease. It is only a symptom of disease.

Thrombocytopenia is nothing more than a fancy ten-dollar word that means an unusually low platelet count.  

Thrombocytopenia can be caused by any number of things.  It can be induced by drugs, pregancy, viral infections, cancer, lupus, anaemia, leukemia, ITP and TTP, and any number of other hemolytic disorders.

See: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/thrombocytopenia/DS00691
and
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/MEDLINEPLUS/ency/article/000586.htm

JK
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on July 31, 2009, 11:49:28 AM
Yes, Mr. Kendrick - I know that.  That is why I posted all the explanations that I did and also the links.


"Thrombocytopenia can be caused by any number of things.  It can be induced by drugs, pregnancy, viral infections, cancer, lupus, anaemia, leukemia, ITP and TTP, and any number of other hemolytic disorders."  


My point being that Alexei did not take drugs, was never pregnant, did not have the symptoms of cancer, lupus, anaemia, or leukemia (another cancer).  He may have had viral infections and he also may have had ITP or TTP, but since both of those are equally distributed between boys and girls and one is most often found in females, (and there is no report of any females in the Victorian line having had similar symptoms) I think that saying he may have had any of these diseases instead of hemophilia is stretching facts to fit your case.

Now tell me again how I must be able to read minds or know things that others do not.  That was rude and unnecessary.  
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 31, 2009, 04:59:35 PM
Yes, Mr. Kendrick - I know that.  That is why I posted all the explanations that I did and also the links.

My point being that Alexei... did not have the symptoms of cancer, lupus, anaemia, or leukemia (another cancer).  
... I think that saying he may have had any of these diseases instead of hemophilia is stretching facts to fit your case.



There are some 150 possible blood disorders now known to modern medicine that all have a hemorrhagic diathesis.  Some three dozen of those same possible blood disorders known to modern medicine can also be acquired through X-linked inheritance.
  
No one can know for certain which of those same possible blood disorders Alexei did or did not have until the day comes when those now very necessary genetic tests have finally been done in the laboratory to either confirm or refute the now popular -- but still unproven -- interpretation of history.

Those who do tend to bleed easily as the result of having a deficiency of the blood Factors VIII or IX do not generally suffer fevers as a primary symptom of their disorder... just as Alexei had done.  However.... Those who tend to bleed easily as a result of having a platelet disorder do generally suffer fevers during their most serious episodes... just as Alexei had done.

Those who tend to bleed easily as the result of having a deficiency of the blood Factors VIII or IX do not show evidence of spontaneous recovery during their most serious hemorrhaging episodes... just as Alexei had done.  However.... Those who tend to bleed easily as a result of having a platelet disorder do show evidence of spontaneous recovery during their most serious episodes... just as Alexei had done.

Those who tend to bleed easily as the result of having a deficiency of the blood Factors VIII or IX do not show evidence of delirium during their most serious hemorrhaging episodes... just as Alexei had done... and do not show evidence of epileptic fits... just as Leopold had done.  However.... Those who tend to bleed easily as a result of having a platelet disorder do show evidence of delirium during their most serious hemorrhaging episodes... just as Alexei had done... and do show evidence of epileptic fits... just as Leopold had done.

All of these same issues have already been discussed and reviewed here many times before and can be found both in the archives of this board... and in the American Journal of Hematology.

JK
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on July 31, 2009, 09:19:43 PM
And again I ask you why you don't take a hand in getting these tests done.  If you are so sure that Alexei did not have hemophilia then it is still incumbent on you to have the testing done.

Whether or not the scientists who have possession of the material needed for testing had said they would do and haven't done it, that should not stop you from contacting them and offering your assistance in money or references or anything else that would bring this to a close.

Most of us don't truly care what disease Alexei suffered from.  You seem to care very much.

There must be more you can do to get your case acknowledged, tested and results published.  Why is that you think everyone else should do the work but you?  You are the one with the hunger to know.

I started this second thread because FA asked me to.  He is my boss.  

For everything that you have posted, I have found opposites.  For everything that I have posted you have found opposites.

As I said way back when this was under the Heino Tammet thread.  If you want to see the testing done and the final results published, then no one is stopping you from doing so.  You pester us here, I am sure that you could pester the Russians just as effectively.

Actually there are probably members of this forum who have contacts (I don't) who could get you introduced to those who could help you in your quest.  But you just sit there and espouse your opinions all the while waiting for someone else to do the work for you.

Go for it, Mr. Kendrick.  You will be a world hero if you can prove without a doubt that Alexei didn't have hemophilia and that the history books are wrong.

This is a very small pond.  Go for the big pond of world recognition.
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on July 31, 2009, 11:28:29 PM

If you are so sure that Alexei did not have hemophilia then it is still incumbent on you to have the testing done.


I'm not the one who has claimed all along -- and without any medical laboratory proof -- that Alexei had hemophilia.

I'm not the one who has made the claim that Alexei's bones have now been found and identified.

I'm not the one who is now obliged by now having possession of those same bone fragments to complete the testing and to prove, once and for all, the historically popular but still totally unproven claim that Alexei had inherited hemophilia.

The popular claim that Alexei had suffered from hemophilia is, after all, still nothing more than that... a claim that has never been proved.

The full obligation now falls squarely and properly on the shoulders of those who now hold and have identified the bone fragments to finish the job properly and finally confirm the still unproven claims of history.

Don't pass the buck on to somebody else... just because they may hold an opposing view of the evidence.

JK
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on August 01, 2009, 09:33:46 AM
But you are the one without medical laboratory proof claiming that he did not have hemophilia.

What about all of the late 19th century and early 20th century doctors who had access to a real live and breathing Alexei who said that it was hemophilia.  Why doubt them?  Trash Rasputin - he was a charlatan so we can leave him out of all this.

So then IMHO, you should be the one to produce the information that will prove your challenge.

Since when does the challenger ask the challenged to show proof that the accepted original information is wrong and that the person challenging is right?

You have been espousing your theories for a long time, Mr. Kendrick, and I personally am not interested.  I posted my original post in the other thread to let the new member know that this "Canadian" information was not new and not proven and had been around for a long time.  The poster had not discovered something that would "bring the house down".

He discovered only your suppositions, which no one here has ever seen you turn into proof.  And , yes, no matter what you say, it is up to you to turn your suppositions into proof.  

For example, if I say that I own my dog and you say that it is yours, it is up to you to prove that the dog is yours, not up to me to prove that it is mine.  You can challenge me and bring proof that the dog is yours, which I then might have to repudiate, but the burden of proof would be on you, the challenger.  

Thank you for an interesting few days of sparing.  I am sorry to have brought all of this to the fore front again and to subject our posters, yet again, to your superfluous suppositions.

I truly hope that you expend some energy on working with the Russian scientists.  

When you have some proof.  Come back and see us again.

Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Forum Admin on August 01, 2009, 10:05:16 AM
and NOW Alixz you see why I have zero tolerance for JK.....welcome to the club.
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on August 02, 2009, 01:51:55 AM

But you are the one without medical laboratory proof claiming that he did not have hemophilia.


There you go... passing the buck again :-)

There is no scientific laboratory proof of any kind that Alexei had hemophilia. None, Nada, Nothing.

There are no known medical records.  No first-hand statements from Nicholas actually using the word hemophilia.   No first-hand statements from Alexandra actually using the word hemophilia. No first-hand statements from Alexei or any of his sisters actually using the word hemophilia. Not a single one.

If there were any such quotes, we would all know exactly where to find them.  All of the evidence is second and third hand hearsay... and nothing more.

The only first hand evidence that even comes close is the statement of October 1912 by Alexei's doctors that calls it only ".. a significant anemia"... and that is all there is.

The only way that you will ever have any actual scientific proof... the only way... is if the bones uncovered in Ekaterinburg test positive for evidence of a faulty Factor VIII gene.
 
Until that day finally comes, there is no proof.  Only hearsay.

...and Hello again, Rob.  ;-)

JK
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Alixz on August 02, 2009, 09:22:22 AM
I am certainly not passing the buck. Since I don't care.  And you are the one who is making the accusations.  The buck has always been with you.  It is you who want to pass it on to the scientists in Russia.

It would be interesting to know what the bones have to say, but I have no vested interest in knowing as you seem to have.  You want to change the history books.

As I said before, then go do it! 

You want someone else to shoulder the responsibility of getting the results for you and then you can say, I told you so. 

Will we hear from you if you are found to be wrong? Like the unfortunate Mr. Richard Schweitzer from whom we no longer hear?

Oh pish and tosh.

Either get off your butt and do you own work, or accept that you will never know because you are not inclined to do the work yourself or at least get involved with those who can do the work.

FA - the club is getting more crowded as I do add myself as one more member.
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Forum Admin on August 02, 2009, 10:22:03 AM

But you are the one without medical laboratory proof claiming that he did not have hemophilia.


There you go... passing the buck again :-)

There is no scientific laboratory proof of any kind that Alexei had hemophilia. None, Nada, Nothing.

There are no known medical records.  No first-hand statements from Nicholas actually using the word hemophilia.   No first-hand statements from Alexandra actually using the word hemophilia. No first-hand statements from Alexei or any of his sisters actually using the word hemophilia. Not a single one.

If there were any such quotes, we would all know exactly where to find them.  All of the evidence is second and third hand hearsay... and nothing more.

The only first hand evidence that even comes close is the statement of October 1912 by Alexei's doctors that calls it only ".. a significant anemia"... and that is all there is.

The only way that you will ever have any actual scientific proof... the only way... is if the bones uncovered in Ekaterinburg test positive for evidence of a faulty Factor VIII gene.
 
Until that day finally comes, there is no proof.  Only hearsay.

...and Hello again, Rob.  ;-)

JK

There you go again, selectively choosing what you want to read and what you "ignore" conveniently:

Spiridovitch WAS THERE IN Bielovezh and SPALA...As Chief of Personal Secret Security for the Imperial Family he was privy to everything related to Alexei's health conditions:

The Tsarevtich had climbed onto the edge of the bathtub wanting to show Derevenko how the sailors on the Standardt would jump off the side of the yacht into the sea to go swimming.  He jumped and fell onto the side of the bathtub.  It hurt him, but without doubt the pain was not very great because he did not say anything afterward.  However, only a few minutes later, he lost conscience and they carried his nearly inanimate body to his bed.
   This accident in a healthy boy would not have had any unfortunate results, but it was for him, who suffered from hemophilia, the start of many severe complications that could never be totally healed.  He was bleeding severely internally.
   As always, the illness was assiduously hidden to the entourage. 
***
 Immediately after some bumps that he took while on a promenade in a caleche with the Empress, his health worsened.  The internal bleeding was even worse, and the swelling in his groin increased in size so much so that the child was confined to his bed.  He suffered incredibly. His cries and moans echoed often throughout the Palace, and his fever steadily grew.  Botkin never left him for a moment, but did not know what he could do to bring him relief. His pain grew so bad that the sick child would not permit the swelling to be touched.  He slept on his side, leg folded, pale, thin and never stopped moaning.
   They called the surgeon Serge Petrovitch Fyedorov from Petersburg, and the old Rauchfuss.  They arrived on October 4th, the night before Alexis Nicholaiovitch's Name's day. The illness got worse.  October 6th, his temperature rose to over 39 degrees (102 F.) and would not go down.  After a consultation, the doctors declared that that the situation was desperate.  Fyedorov said that he had decided not to open the swelling, given that they would be operating on the inheritor of the throne, and the operation would bring on fatal bleeding.  Only a miracle could save the child's life, he said.  And when they asked him what that miracle might be, he responded by shrugging his shoulders and said that the swelling might spontaneously be reabsorbed, but that the chance of that actually happening was only less than one in a hundred.
---Les Dernieres Annees... Vol. 2 Ch. XII  my personal translation from the original French.
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on August 03, 2009, 02:00:09 AM

There you go again, selectively choosing what you want to read and what you "ignore" conveniently:

Spiridovitch WAS THERE IN Bielovezh and SPALA...As Chief of Personal Secret Security for the Imperial Family he was privy to everything related to Alexei's health conditions:



If you look back in your own archives, Rob, you'll find that we've already been down this road before...

Spiridovich -- apparently your favourite source on this subject -- was writing in 1928, a full ten years after the murders... when the hemophilia rumour was already well established...  and sixteen long years after the episode at Spala.

Spridovich was not a doctor, so his claim that was written a full 16 years after the fact was not a result of his own medical knowledge.  His information was obviously second hand... so who was his original source?  Who was the person who had originally told  Spridovich the cause of Alexei's condition?... and when was he told?   

Was he told at the time of the event in 1912? ... or did he come to that conclusion on his own as a result of the rumours he had heard during the 16 years that had passed between the time of the event in 1912 and the time that he actually wrote his book in 1928?

The legal definition of Hearsay is: Evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them.

... and if you really do want to go into the Spala episode again in full detail..

You'll find my response  -- Spiridovich included -- both in your own archives of this board... and in the American Journal of Hematology, Volume 77, Number 1, September 2004.

JK
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Forum Admin on August 03, 2009, 09:19:11 AM
He was told, by the Doctors treating him, at that time, in 1912. He was given daily updates by the doctors, as well as Sabline. Sorry that this contradicts your flat earth theory JK.
His papers are at Yale, go read them.
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: J_Kendrick on August 04, 2009, 12:56:30 AM
He was told, by the Doctors treating him, at that time, in 1912. He was given daily updates by the doctors, as well as Sabline. Sorry that this contradicts your flat earth theory JK.
His papers are at Yale, go read them.


"He was told by the doctors treating him"

Again, the very definition of hearsay evidence: Evidence that is offered by a witness of which they do not have direct knowledge but, rather, their testimony is based on what others have said to them.

From your own translation of Spiridovich:
"October 6th, his temperature rose to over 39 degrees (102 F.) and would not go down.  After a consultation, the doctors declared that that the situation was desperate. Fyedorov said that he had decided not to open the swelling, given that they would be operating on the inheritor of the throne, and the operation would bring on fatal bleeding.  Only a miracle could save the child's life, he said.  And when they asked him what that miracle might be, he responded by shrugging his shoulders and said that the swelling might spontaneously be reabsorbed, but that the chance of that actually happening was only less than one in a hundred."

So, what happened four days later?  Exactly what Dr. Fyedorov had predicted might happen. The fever finally broke and Alexei had spontaneously recovered in a matter of a few short hours.

... and here's the catch...  

Hemophiliacs do not suffer fevers as a primary symptom of their hemorrhaging episodes... and the hemorrhaging that is caused by a Factor VIII or IX deficiency does not stop spontaneously.

These very same symptoms of excessively high fever and spontaneous recovery from hemorrhaging most certainly do happen, however, in episodes of Aplastic Crisis in patients with a history of Hemolytic Anemia... which is not caused by a clotting factor deficiency... and most certainly is not hemophilia.

From the official palace statement of 21 0ctober, 1912: "The results of such widespread haemorrhaging is a significant anaemia, which sometimes need a considerable time to cure completely"

Anemia certainly is a blood disorder... but it is not hemophilia.

JK
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: PrincessLily on September 11, 2009, 08:34:07 AM
My first instinct is: haven't these people been violated enough?  My emotional response aside, would there be sufficient DNA material left to do the testing?  My understanding is that there was very little viable material left of Alexei and Anastasia.  My apologies for the graphic imagery.

Lily
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: mcdnab on September 11, 2009, 04:03:05 PM
Interesting as it is I tend to agree with Lily. DNA testing was vital to establish beyond doubt that the remains were those of the Imperial Family but beyond that it has very little relevance.
Whether or not the descendants of Victoria had the faulty gene is mere guesswork although there are plenty of other descendants who were alleged to be carriers or sufferers who could at a push be tested but I don't really see the necessity. We know factually that some of Victoria's descendants had serious illnesses that appeared to involve a problem with clotting and appear to have been hereditary,
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: Kimberly on October 12, 2009, 10:19:40 AM
According to this, the disease was Christmas Disease/ Haemophilia B;

http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2009/1008/2 (http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2009/1008/2)
Title: Re: Hemophilia and Other Blood Disorders
Post by: victoriakin on December 29, 2009, 11:38:05 AM
It has long been bothersome to me to realize that the medical science of the early twentieth century was not as able as the medical science today to diagnose conditions. Suffice to say that I do believe that Alexei did have some sort of a blood clotting condition but do not believe it to have been hemophelia per se. There are numerous sorts of clotting disorders that arise in both males and females that are not hemophelia.

I do believe that Alexei had issues with bleeding. But I do not believe this to have been some family-systemic issue covered up for generations and branches of the family. I believe that many mysteries of medical science come in many forms. I'd rather not draw conclusions. I also do not take stock in the so-called DNA results in a culture bound at determining results of tests before any are taken.