Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Marie Feodorovna => Topic started by: ElizavetaRose on February 18, 2010, 10:26:25 PM

Title: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ElizavetaRose on February 18, 2010, 10:26:25 PM
I've never quite understood what really became of the Dowager Empress after the murder of her family members. I know that she left Russia on a British ship,but where did she go or what did she do from there?
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Margot on February 18, 2010, 10:40:37 PM
ElizavetaRose Welcome!

This is a tricky one as their is heaps of information about Maria F's life in exile scattered about!

She basically ended up living permanently in Denmark, first as a guest of her nephew Christian X and then I believe she more or less moved permanently to Hvidore the house she and Queen Alexandra had bought together before the War! I believe Christian X found his aunt rather set in her ways and apparently there were tensions when she stayed in Copenhagen! Whether this is true I don't really know as I am not an expert of Maria F.

She and Olga A. and Olga's husband Nikolai and their sons all seem to have lived together first at the Amalienborg and then later permanently at Hvidore!

Sorry I can not be of more use! Maybe others will prove more useful!
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2010, 12:50:51 PM
After leaving Russia on the Marlbrough. It was thought that she would spent time with her eldest sister Dowager Queen Alexandra in England. However after a while the sisters realised that they were not as compatable as they believe. Queen Alexandra was quite deaf and disoriented, much to the annoyance to the Dowager Russian Empress. It was then that it was decided that she should move back to Denmark. King George V, Queen Mary and Queen Alexandra all contributed to an income to Marie for life, and using the jewels she bought out in trust. The Dowager Empress thus return to Denmark , spending Summers in Hvidore and Winters in a wing of the Amaliaborg Palace. She remained active in the exiled circles and contributed to charities for the exile's benefit.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ElizavetaRose on February 19, 2010, 01:05:13 PM
Thank you both  :).  I'm glad that she ended up somewhat happily in the end. God knows how sad it must have been for her after the murders of the IF.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2010, 01:22:09 PM
I think she was more or less settled in Denmark. The apearance of Anna Anderson did not create any notice for her (although her daughter Olga did investigate), although she did not approve or support Cyril's actions to proclaim himself Tsar. Her last years were spent with her daughters and their children who visited her. I read she was quite fond of her grandson George, the son of Grand Duke Michael (Misha).
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on February 20, 2010, 04:41:53 PM
Yes, Maria Feodorovna lived in Denmark after her escape from Russia. She stayed for a few months in England, but her presence caused some trouble and she moved to Denmark. I don't think that the main problem was the sisters not getting along.
In Denmark her parents old home, Christian IX's mansion at Amalienborg Palace was her winter home. After Christian IX's death the mansion was put at the disposal of his daughters, so MF didn't really live there at the kindness of Christian X. During the summer she lived at Hvidøre. Knowing that she had two places to call home gave her much comfort.

At Hvidøre she lived very modest with a small loyal Russian retinue, consisting of Countess Mengden, Prince Dolgoruky and Prince Vyasemsky. I have also read that her Russian relative Princess Helena of Mecklenburg-Strelitz lived with her.

Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Forum Admin on February 20, 2010, 05:12:45 PM
Please remember her name is, most accurately, MARIE Feodorovna. She never signed her name Maria, and even Imperial publications done in English refer to her as Marie...
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 21, 2010, 08:44:11 PM
Indeed. She also signed her named as "Minnie" !  :)
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ashdean on February 22, 2010, 06:57:22 AM
Yes, Maria Feodorovna lived in Denmark after her escape from Russia. She stayed for a few months in England, but her presence caused some trouble and she moved to Denmark. I don't think that the main problem was the sisters not getting along.
In Denmark her parents old home, Christian IX's mansion at Amalienborg Palace was her winter home. After Christian IX's death the mansion was put at the disposal of his daughters, so MF didn't really live there at the kindness of Christian X. During the summer she lived at Hvidøre. Knowing that she had two places to call home gave her much comfort.

At Hvidøre she lived very modest with a small loyal Russian retinue, consisting of Countess Mengden, Prince Dolgoruky and Prince Vyasemsky. I have also read that her Russian relative Princess Helena of Mecklenburg-Strelitz lived with her.


Princess Albert of Saxe Altenberg nee Duchess of Mecklenberg -Strelitz left Russia with the von Carlow family (widow and grown children of her late brothers morganatic marriage ) on another british warship from Odessa.She settled in Germany in what had been her late husbands family estate.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ashdean on February 22, 2010, 06:58:53 AM
After leaving Russia on the Marlbrough. It was thought that she would spent time with her eldest sister Dowager Queen Alexandra in England. However after a while the sisters realised that they were not as compatable as they believe. Queen Alexandra was quite deaf and disoriented, much to the annoyance to the Dowager Russian Empress. It was then that it was decided that she should move back to Denmark. King George V, Queen Mary and Queen Alexandra all contributed to an income to Marie for life, and using the jewels she bought out in trust. The Dowager Empress thus return to Denmark , spending Summers in Hvidore and Winters in a wing of the Amaliaborg Palace. She remained active in the exiled circles and contributed to charities for the exile's benefit.
The jewels were not used as any kind of trust/security as later records show...
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2010, 10:09:07 AM
I think that was done to give the idea that Marie is not living in charity. she felt better that her jewels are paying for her lifestyle. Do remember her nephew Christian X always tried to ask his aunt to sell her jewels. George V's action caesed that tension.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ashdean on February 22, 2010, 11:08:46 AM
I think that was done to give the idea that Marie is not living in charity. she felt better that her jewels are paying for her lifestyle. Do remember her nephew Christian X always tried to ask his aunt to sell her jewels. George V's action caesed that tension.
Could you please state EXACTLY yr sources for which is a mere ASSUMPTION....Marie had no intention of selling or pawning her gems in any shape or form...indeed it has OFTEN been stated that at the end of her life the jewel box because of its contents preyed on her mind...because they provided the only legacy she could leave to secure her daughters future....indeed the realise of their share of Hvidore and its contents by Q Alexandras children proved they wanted no lien on anything belonging to their aunt wholely or partially!!
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2010, 03:36:30 PM
Indeed you answered the question already. After Marie's death, the content of the jewel box was taken to England where they were sold. Queen Mary bought quite a few and others were bought by others. If Empress Marie had not given the ok for the jewels to be held in trust by George V, they could not no authority to dispose the contents. It is as simple as that. Even Olga said she did not see the jewels before they were sold. As the benificary she should be consulted before hand. This proves that an agreement had been reached before hand with the British Royal Family, who had been paying the empress an income during her lifetime.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: rosieposie on February 22, 2010, 04:25:52 PM
I saw on the doco about Olga A, that said that at times the relationship between Olga A and MF got a bit strained when they settled in Denmark because Olga A was still "looking" after Maria etc.   Tell me if that was true?
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2010, 04:47:09 PM
Marie was a very pocessive mother. She had kept Olga near her and with intention of keeping her as a spinster daughter. The marriage with Peter of Oldenburg was 1. either Marie'sway of keeping her close by 2. Olga's way of having a marriage at all. Anyway it would not be surprising if Marie still required her daughter's help even after she was married. She was not close to Olga's second husband.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: grandduchessella on February 22, 2010, 04:54:51 PM
Indeed you answered the question already. After Marie's death, the content of the jewel box was taken to England where they were sold. Queen Mary bought quite a few and others were bought by others. If Empress Marie had not given the ok for the jewels to be held in trust by George V, they could not no authority to dispose the contents. It is as simple as that. Even Olga said she did not see the jewels before they were sold. As the benificary she should be consulted before hand. This proves that an agreement had been reached before hand with the British Royal Family, who had been paying the empress an income during her lifetime.

This has been gone over, quite in depthly, on other threads. GV didn't dispose of the contents--the opening of the jewel case was done in the presence of Xenia, who seemed to handle the bulk of the jewels since all unsold went back to her. This was noted in the copious records kept by the auction company and later put into William Clarke's book.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2010, 05:01:37 PM
Yes, but why wasn't Olga notified ? She was one of the beneficires of her mother's estate. Either Xenia stole the contents without notifying her sister or the British Royal Family was involved with understanding from Empress Marie. That misunderstanding led to the accusation (yes it was explained in the Clark book) that Queen Mary got the jewels at knock down prices. Also Olga wasn't paid her share until years later. That was paid by Queen Mary's granddaughter Queen Elizabeth II out of her own pocket.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: grandduchessella on February 22, 2010, 08:59:34 PM
As I said, there are other threads for this. It has also been laid to rest the idea that Olga was paid some difference by EII. This is apparently not true. Whatever Olga did or didn't get from the jewels, Hvidore, etc....was between herself and Xenia. It was their poor communication that led to much of the confusion, as well as a misinterpretation of Ponsonby's recollections as well as the difference in initial valuation and the amount actually obtained. If Olga had pursued the matter more forcefully in her lifetime, rather than waiting to make the accusations in Vorres book, when most participants were deceased, matters probably would've been explained to her, and her heirs's, satisfaction. As it was, the misinterpretation was allowed to grow and bloom. I never particularly cared for this aspect of Olga's behavior, personally, but I also wasn't in her head. Also, to me at least, seemed very indicative of the state of relations between Olga and both her mother and her sister.

ANYWAY, back to topic. Anything further can be routed to one of the many threads on the discussion.

Marie spent a good deal of time in England, at least until the early 1920s. Then her sister's health began to go into serious decline and the 2 began to get on each other's nerves. After about 1923, Marie spent most of her time in Denmark. Prior to that, she was a frequent guest in England and was seen at many royal events, including several royal weddings. Since Xenia spent most of her time in England, Marie saw her quite frequently during this period. I'm not sure how often mother & daughter met afterwards or how much time she then spent with her Denmark-living daughter Olga. The 2 were together for Olga's cousin Margarethe's wedding.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ashdean on February 23, 2010, 03:09:32 AM
Indeed you answered the question already. After Marie's death, the content of the jewel box was taken to England where they were sold. Queen Mary bought quite a few and others were bought by others. If Empress Marie had not given the ok for the jewels to be held in trust by George V, they could not no authority to dispose the contents. It is as simple as that. Even Olga said she did not see the jewels before they were sold. As the benificary she should be consulted before hand. This proves that an agreement had been reached before hand with the British Royal Family, who had been paying the empress an income during her lifetime.
Olga KNEW and AGREED the jewels should go to London.....it was only the details of the disposal in England that was (wrongly)kept from Olga.George V did not hold the money in trust...a trust was set up for the sisters....AND..NOWHERE EVER have I read that Marir organised or agreed to the gems being held as security by the british royal family...she no doubt hoped that they would be properly sold and perhaps thought the british might be the best help in the process but nowhere was it said she had used them as collaterall with anyone for any loan!.
Im sure you are a well read man Eric but yr NOT the only one and you ARE NOT going brow beat me into believing what you choose to be YOUR version of events.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2010, 11:59:58 AM
Nobody is going to beat anybody here. What I am saying is that. According the books on Marie & Alexandra. Marie had been spending whatever she had in great speed (mostly towards Russian exiles and their charities). King George V assigned someone to look after the finances of his aunt Minny, and all three (Queen Alexandra, Queen Mary & King George V himself) established a fund out of their pockets for the aging empress. I remember that person took control of the expenses and left over money each month was given to Marie to spend on whatever she pleases. In this way the British Royal Family has control over her affairs already. The Trust thing I believe (personally) was done to ward off the advances of King Christian X of Denmark, who wished to get a piece of the pie and asked for his aunts jewels to be sold (she was living under his roof in the Amalianborg Palace). With the Brotish Royal Family in on the case, it would give the Empress some peace & protection from her erring nephew. After the death of the Empress, the jewels were not sold in Denmark, but spirited out of the country to be sold in Britian, where Queen Mary (not Queen Alexandrine) got first pick. Also Xenia lived in Britian as guest of the King but not Olga. The whole affair is a bit muddled. I don't blame Olga at all, although I find Xenia a tad sneaky in the whole incident.

Indeed Marie lived up her life in Denmark. Thyra did visit her a few times, but Alexandra didn't I think.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: grandduchessella on February 23, 2010, 12:26:25 PM
Queen Alexandrine doesn't seem to have bought any, so 'first pick' probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Queen Mary bought a total of 3 items and paid at or above price--there's been some talk that some items were not listed and perhaps dealt with privately for whatever reason. Perhaps Christian X wouldn't have been as generous--that was apparently part of the concern, wasn't it? That he would deduct some of the upkeep of his aunt from the proceeds? And Olga chose to live in Denmark while Xenia chose England. Olga probably would have been given the same consideration had she wanted to stay there. There's nothing shady or muddled in Xenia living as a 'guest' of the British royals. Olga was more independent and had a very young family. Xenia's children were already marrying or going off to school.

A jewel discussion for those interested, it lists the complete inventory of MF's jewels, what they were appraised at, what they sold for and which ones British royals bought:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=567.150
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2010, 12:40:19 PM
Thanks. I am not saying that it "was" shady. It just "looks" that way.When WWII came, Olga had to leave Denmark. The British could not offer her safety there so she had to go to Canada. It decision ultimately led to her dying alone in Toronto. With Xenia at the bosom of the British Royal Family, I could believe why she would be suspicious of the different treatment of the sisters and why it took so many years before the money from the jewels came to her. It did "look bad" there is no two ways to it.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ashdean on February 23, 2010, 01:42:59 PM
Queen Alexandrine doesn't seem to have bought any, so 'first pick' probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Queen Mary bought a total of 3 items and paid at or above price--there's been some talk that some items were not listed and perhaps dealt with privately for whatever reason. Perhaps Christian X wouldn't have been as generous--that was apparently part of the concern, wasn't it? That he would deduct some of the upkeep of his aunt from the proceeds? And Olga chose to live in Denmark while Xenia chose England. Olga probably would have been given the same consideration had she wanted to stay there. There's nothing shady or muddled in Xenia living as a 'guest' of the British royals. Olga was more independent and had a very young family. Xenia's children were already marrying or going off to school.

A jewel discussion for those interested, it lists the complete inventory of MF's jewels, what they were appraised at, what they sold for and which ones British royals bought:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=567.150

Perhaps Alexandrine (who had a quantity of fine jewels inherited from her Romanov mother was not interested in any more gems...perhaps indeed she and Christian did not have the spare cash...
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ashdean on February 23, 2010, 01:47:20 PM
Queen Alexandrine doesn't seem to have bought any, so 'first pick' probably wouldn't have made a difference anyway. Queen Mary bought a total of 3 items and paid at or above price--there's been some talk that some items were not listed and perhaps dealt with privately for whatever reason. Perhaps Christian X wouldn't have been as generous--that was apparently part of the concern, wasn't it? That he would deduct some of the upkeep of his aunt from the proceeds? And Olga chose to live in Denmark while Xenia chose England. Olga probably would have been given the same consideration had she wanted to stay there. There's nothing shady or muddled in Xenia living as a 'guest' of the British royals. Olga was more independent and had a very young family. Xenia's children were already marrying or going off to school.

A jewel discussion for those interested, it lists the complete inventory of MF's jewels, what they were appraised at, what they sold for and which ones British royals bought:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=567.150

Olga was indeed more independant and her life in Denmark was much quieter...more to her liking and then of course she had her husbands input to consider. Im sure if she had come to Uk she would have been recieved kindly by her Royal kin.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: rosieposie on February 23, 2010, 04:10:27 PM
I watched also on the doc that Olga A's first husband was a closet homosexual and that they never consumated, Olga had her own wing and her husband had his.   They were just friends and they had their own reasons for marriage. 

With possessiveness of MF over Olga A,  do you think that MF knew about Olga's first husband having homosexual or tendancys that he wouldn't get physically close with Olga A?

Yes I can see why MF would dislike or be jealous of Olga's second husband.   After all the guy really did love her but I think MF couldn't see passed it.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2010, 07:29:10 PM
It was a revealation that MF did not force Olga to marry Peter Oldenburg because she want to keep her close to her. For Olga it was either a gay husband or no husband like poor Toria. I think Peter really loved her in his own way, when he fell for Kilokufsky. He provided them a promixity of respectability while the affair was conducting under his nose. Olga returned the Oldenburg jewels after the divorce and happy that her ex-husband lived well at the proceeds from the sale. It was a friendship marriage.

As for the jewels, it was inparitive that King Christian X not get his hands on them. It was this reason the British Royal Family came in and protect the interests of MF and her heirs. Although it looks like only Xenia benifitted from the sale of jewels. Olga had every right to be bitter about how the affair was handled.

BTW Queen Alexandrine had quite a lot of Romanov jewels through her mother Grand Duchess Anastasia Mikailovna(apart from the collection of Queen Louise and pool from Queen Lovisa). She did not need to buy more. However she did not lay eyes on them though.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: grandduchessella on February 23, 2010, 09:10:46 PM
This topic is getting waaaay off-track--first the jewels (I'm not even going to respond to some of those comments anymore since I've directed anyone who wants to discuss it to the proper thread)and then Olga's marriage (which also has a thread). Back to MF's life after the war.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 24, 2010, 05:35:38 PM
Yes. Back to Marie after the war. She did make visits to her Danish relatives and being photographed in big groups. I wonder who was her Danish favourite ? Maybe Queen Alexandrine ?
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: grandduchessella on February 24, 2010, 05:57:57 PM
Why would you think Alexandrine? I would perhaps her German ties would be difficult--though her brother was married to Marie's niece. I'm sure her favorite Danish relation was her brother Waldemar.  :)
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on February 24, 2010, 06:52:46 PM
Why would you think Alexandrine? I would perhaps her German ties would be difficult--though her brother was married to Marie's niece. I'm sure her favorite Danish relation was her brother Waldemar.  :)

Yes, you are right. Waldemar was her favorite, and then his children. I don't think she had anything against Alexandrine (although MF though she ought to spend more time with her mother in-law). She didn't like Grand Duke Friedrich Franz IV.

MF liked Christian X but not his humor, and she was often embarresed when he would say something that she thought inapropiate.

And regarding GDss Olga, I think she did have some liberty in her relationship with her mother. When she didn't want to attend some royal event, she didn't and MF accepted it.
 
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on February 24, 2010, 06:56:32 PM
Marie Feodorovna with Christian X during a visit to an institution in the 1920-ies. MF was an active lady also during her exile.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Dagmar/dagogcti.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 24, 2010, 07:06:14 PM
They seemed happy togather. Maybe that was before Christian X saw the electric bill.  ;)
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ashdean on February 25, 2010, 12:07:04 PM


Yes, you are right. Waldemar was her favorite, and then his children. I don't think she had anything against Alexandrine (although MF though she ought to spend more time with her mother in-law). She didn't like Grand Duke Friedrich Franz IV.


 
Why did MF not like Friedrich Franz? Its something Ive never heard of before..
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Kalafrana on February 25, 2010, 12:57:41 PM
I have been following this thread with interest but cannot pretend to any particular knowledge.

However, I cannot see why it was 'imperative' to keep the jewellery out of Christian X's hands.

Perhaps the main reason for the relative lack of visits from Queen Alexandra to her siister was her own increasing ill-heaqlth.

Ann
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2010, 02:17:23 PM
The simple fact that Christian X did not get along with his bossy aunt who is now living under his roof.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Kalafrana on February 25, 2010, 02:34:22 PM
I think there is a difference between not getting on with someone and being out to swindle them!

As an inveterate turner-off of lights, I have a certain sympathy with Christian X. (Now I have the pretext of climate change and can enjoy a sense of moral superiority about it too!)

Ann
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 25, 2010, 02:41:20 PM
Yes. I think Marie lived too long in fabled luxury to deal with bills (I doubt she ever did after she became empress). However the way he dealt was her was bordering on tactless (as it may appear to George V,Queen Mary and of course Queen Alexandra) and a slant of humiliation (maybe she should start selling her jewels to pay for her upkeep). Queen Alexandrine was rumoured that she was so ashamed of her husband's behavior that she cried. With the Briitish Royal Family coming to Marie's rescue, she was determined that her jewels should be safe from him. That was what happened.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on February 25, 2010, 04:37:02 PM

  Why did MF not like Friedrich Franz? Its something Ive never heard of before..

She found him to be stiff and tiresome, and a real " german fool". She felt that his wife, Alexandra of Hannover was cowed by him.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on February 25, 2010, 04:53:10 PM
MF was not wealthy (in relative) in her exile and she was aware of that. During her niece, Princess Margrethes wedding in 1921 she wore pre-war dresses, writting to Queen Alexandra," I have nothing else, but that is of no matter."
Her money situation was always strained, but it did help that the British RF gave her an annuity from 1923.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Kalafrana on February 26, 2010, 03:28:07 AM
'maybe she should start selling her jewels to pay for her upkeep.'

Times had changed. I don't think the Danish royal family was particularly well off.

Most people when their normal sources of income are cut off have to tighten their belts, sell things and find jobs!

Ann
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 26, 2010, 09:41:35 AM
I understand. However it was hard to tell an aged Russian Dowager Empress that without hurting her feelings. I do gave credit to the British Royal Family to support their relative through financial difficulty. To George V, it must be something of a guilt offering, as had he not recinded his offer of aslyum to his cousin Nicky, the whole family might have survived.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Kalafrana on February 26, 2010, 10:59:59 AM
Of course, Christian X was not only maintaining Marie herself, but her followers too. Does anybody know how large an entourage she had while in Denmark?

One reason I admire Olga Alexandrovna is that she and her family largely provided for themselves while in exile (apart from the share-out of the proceeds of the jewellery and the sale of Hvidore).

Ann
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 26, 2010, 06:18:17 PM
Yes. Hard to teach an old woman to economize. What she need was comfort and respect and not hard truths. It was no win situation with Christian X. However he wasn't too much of a popular figure with Queen Alexandra either.

Indeed, Olga decided to go her own way, yet emotionally she was still tied to her mother. Xenia and Olga did not remain close after their mother died.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on February 26, 2010, 07:43:33 PM
Of course, Christian X was not only maintaining Marie herself, but her followers too. Does anybody know how large an entourage she had while in Denmark?
Ann

I don't think that Christian X maintained Marie or her entourage, but I have read that he did give her som financial help.
Marie had a small Russian "court" at Hvidøre. I posted the members of her suite earlier in this thread, and then she had her famous loyal cossacks, and some Russian and Danish servants. Besides that she had contact with exiled Russians in Copenhagen, such as the Princely Ladischensky family.

I don't think that she spend lavishly on herself, but of course maintaining even a small court was expensive. Some of her money went to Russian refugees, and she also spend money on a lawsuit against the Bolsheviks when they confiscated the Russian Church in Copenhagen.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 26, 2010, 08:11:53 PM
Thanks for the information. I also read Marie spent much money on helping the Russian exiles. She remain the "mother to her people" even in exile.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on March 01, 2010, 05:30:49 PM
You are welcome.

These images are labelled as MF's arrival in Denmark, 1919, but I think they are from a later arrival. I think you can see GDss Olga, Kulikovski and what could be their two sons in the first one, and therefore they are not from the year 1919. What do you think? My guess is that the pictures are from MF's arrival in 1923 after her visit to Queen Alexandra in England from 1922-1923.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Dagmar/ankomst.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Dagmar/dagankom.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on March 01, 2010, 06:27:07 PM
And in these pictures she is received by different people, and although they are blurry, you can see that Christian X's uniform jacket is shorter. These are from MF's arrival in 1919.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Dagmar/dagsanct.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Frederik%20VIII%20and%20Louise/lovisaMFarrival.jpg)
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on March 01, 2010, 06:41:52 PM
Kmerov, very interesting last photos!

I hope you don't mind me asking, but haven't you got any more photos from this arrival to Denmark in 1919? If so, could you please post them or send me by PM? The reason is simple - I'm interested and re-exploring all the details of that period of Russian History, and this arrival of Marie Feodorovna from Crimea in 1919, then her life in Denmark is very important for me.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Kalafrana on March 02, 2010, 03:21:11 AM
In the first picture Christian X is wearing a greatcoat (unless it's a baggy and rather heavyweight frock coat - it's a bit confusing because Royal Navy greatcoats have rank insignia on the shoulders rather than the sleeves), in the third one posted a uniform jacket. Marie Feodorovna first arrived in Denmark in May 1919, so probably not in greatcoat weather.

Ann
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 02, 2010, 11:00:05 AM
Thanks. I wonder if Christian X and Dagmar was ever close ? He looks like he is not a very agreeable man. I would have thought Dagmar would have been more welcome to Oslo with Haakon (Karl) & Maud.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: PAVLOV on March 02, 2010, 11:49:22 AM
I dont think he was a very agreeable person. He was also very stingy. Although one must also not forget that she was not the easiest person either. She was a very demanding, and spoilt. She went from everything to nothing. It must have been huge adjustment for her.  Her own sister Alexandra could only take her in small chunks.
The Danish family were obliged to look after her. So between them I think it worked both ways. They had to put up with each other.
I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 02, 2010, 12:08:42 PM
I would have thought Dagmar would have been more welcome to Oslo with Haakon (Karl) & Maud.
I don't think the wife and mother of two "tyrants" (i.e. reactionary tsars) would have been very welcome as permanent settlers in the rather fragile new Norwegian monarchy, neither by the quite republican-minded people nor the cautious royal couple themselves.

That being said, MF had been a guest in Norway several times in the period 1905-1914, when her "Polar Star" would anchor next to Alexandra's "Victoria and Albert" in the Fjord of Oslo and they would visit Carl/Haakon and Maud at their summer residence, the seaside Royal Manor of Bygdø, often accompanied by Princess Victoria (Toria) and Grand Duke George.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 02, 2010, 12:58:15 PM
I think Karl and Maud were closer to Marie (as noted she visited them in Norway before) than Christian X. It is doubly hard for them (Christian X & Marie) to forge arelationship when none was there in the first place. Yes I agree the Dowager Empress was not the easiest person to get along with, but so was Christian X's mother Queen Lovisa...
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 02, 2010, 01:01:18 PM
I think Karl and Maud were closer to Marie (as noted she visited them in Norway before) than Christian X.
I see your point.

Instead of MF, the most famous Russian exilé in Norway became Trotsky, who lived here 1935-1937!
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 02, 2010, 01:44:38 PM
Thanks. I was thinking more along the lines of family affection.

Don't think MF will inviteTrotsky for tea at Havidore... ;)
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on March 02, 2010, 04:38:13 PM
Kmerov, very interesting last photos!

I hope you don't mind me asking, but haven't you got any more photos from this arrival to Denmark in 1919? If so, could you please post them or send me by PM? The reason is simple - I'm interested and re-exploring all the details of that period of Russian History, and this arrival of Marie Feodorovna from Crimea in 1919, then her life in Denmark is very important for me.

No, I'm afraid that is the only one I have. But if I find some more pictures I will post them.
The ship that brought MF back to Denmark in 1919 was owned by a Danish company, who also supported her financially in her exile.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on March 02, 2010, 04:54:38 PM
In the first picture Christian X is wearing a greatcoat (unless it's a baggy and rather heavyweight frock coat - it's a bit confusing because Royal Navy greatcoats have rank insignia on the shoulders rather than the sleeves), in the third one posted a uniform jacket. Marie Feodorovna first arrived in Denmark in May 1919, so probably not in greatcoat weather.

Ann

Thanks for the info on the coat. MF arrived in Denmark in August 1919, but I assume that it wouldn't be greatcoat weather in August either.

Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on March 02, 2010, 05:54:04 PM
By the way, members of Marie Feodorovnas court in Denmark are buried in two sections of the Assistens Cemetery in Copenhagen, and it is worth a visit if you are ever nearby!

The cemeteries homepage. In Danish, but it has a portrait and a picture of MF's two Cossacks.
http://www.assistens.dk/forsk.htm (http://www.assistens.dk/forsk.htm)

Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 02, 2010, 07:26:05 PM
Thanks for the info. I would visit the next time I go to Copenhagen.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Douglas on March 02, 2010, 08:04:30 PM
Every time I read about the British royals trying to get their hands on Marie's  jewels,  I get a sick feeling in my stomach. I presume she realized that since her blood relations were not able or willing to fully fund her retirement, she had to convert her jewels into cash.  Possibly her consolation was the fact that they were retained within royal circles and didn't go to some American millionaire's wife. I guess she was being practical and didn't want her daughters feeling that they had to support their elderly mother.  

  I watched my own mother parcel out her jewelry collection and diamonds to her children before she passed away. It's sad but then one should be realistic.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 02, 2010, 08:10:14 PM
Well...I think the British Royal Family was very generous to Marie in funding her retirement (and later supporting Xenia as well) . She was never humiliated like she did with Christian X.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Douglas on March 02, 2010, 10:25:50 PM

I would say the incident of the electric bills, etc., was kind of minor.  My father used to tell us to turn off the electric lights  all the time.  It's part of living with family relations.  Marie was better off living in her own home at Hvidovre (København, Denmark) anyway.

Yes, the British royals did provide for Xenia but they did not provide a refuge for the Tsar and his immediate family.



Well...I think the British Royal Family was very generous to Marie in funding her retirement (and later supporting Xenia as well) . She was never humiliated like she did with Christian X.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Kalafrana on March 03, 2010, 03:29:34 AM
To be fair, at the time George V declined to accept the Romanovs, their lives were not under particular threat. The chaos of the February Revolution had calmed down and the Provisional Government appeared to be in control. Things changed a good deal between April 1917 and July 1918.

Eric
In what ways did Christian X humiliate Marie Feodorovna? Asking her to economise does not qualify.

Ann

Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: PAVLOV on March 03, 2010, 05:50:20 AM
I think asking her to economise, must have been humiliating.  Its not something she had to do in Russia or ever have to think about.
Its wonderful having been poor and becoming rich, but I imagine the opposite must have been extremely difficult for her.

I think she went into denial about many things after leaving Russia.   
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on March 03, 2010, 06:22:01 PM
As I wrote in a previous post Christian X had a humor that was not to Marie Feodorovnas liking, but she had nothing against him in generel, calling him "fundamentally kind". Christian X could say quite shocking things in fun, and not all understood his humor.

In regards to Christian X humiliating MF, some of it comes from Ian Vorres book on GDss Olga. As I remember it, among other things she said that Christian would come and check if any items in the mansion were missing, thinking they had sold them. Olga seems to have taken what he said for real, which I can't judge if he did.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 03, 2010, 08:43:31 PM
Yes. Also Both Dagmar & Alexandra was never really close to Lovisa's family (The only exception maybe Karl (Haakon) who married Maud). George V did not seem to be close to his Danish cousin either. I agree with Kmerov, it is humilating for Marie to be even suspect of stealing from her nephew. No wonder Queen Alexandrine wept at her husband's behavior to his Russian aunt.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on July 20, 2010, 05:03:06 PM
At Hvidøre she lived very modest with a small loyal Russian retinue, consisting of Countess Mengden, Prince Dolgoruky and Prince Vyasemsky. I have also read that her Russian relative Princess Helena of Mecklenburg-Strelitz lived with her.


Princess Albert of Saxe Altenberg nee Duchess of Mecklenberg -Strelitz left Russia with the von Carlow family (widow and grown children of her late brothers morganatic marriage ) on another british warship from Odessa.She settled in Germany in what had been her late husbands family estate.

I should have written for some time during MF's exile, but I don't know for how long. Helena provided a Danish author with stories about their last years in Russia.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 20, 2010, 05:29:20 PM
Princess Helena of Denmark in Russia ???
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on July 20, 2010, 05:56:21 PM
No, Helena of Mecklenburg-Strelitz, daughter of Grand Duchess Ekaterina Mikhailovna of Russia.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 20, 2010, 06:08:49 PM
Was she in Russia ?
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on July 20, 2010, 06:59:02 PM
Yes, I believe she spend time or even lived in Russia prior to the revolution.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Svetabel on July 21, 2010, 01:52:23 AM
Yes, I believe she spend time or even lived in Russia prior to the revolution.

She lived in Russia most of her life, and before 1917 year certainly.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eddie_uk on July 21, 2010, 03:16:41 AM
Every time I read about the British royals trying to get their hands on Marie's  jewels,  I get a sick feeling in my stomach. I presume she realized that since her blood relations were not able or willing to fully fund her retirement, she had to convert her jewels into cash.  Possibly her consolation was the fact that they were retained within royal circles and didn't go to some American millionaire's wife. I guess she was being practical and didn't want her daughters feeling that they had to support their elderly mother.  

  I watched my own mother parcel out her jewelry collection and diamonds to her children before she passed away. It's sad but then one should be realistic.

Ahem. I think you need to do a bit more reading! :) Because of George V's support Marie did not need to pawn jewels to fund her exile. George V was very kind to Marie and always protected her interests. The aim of getting the jewel case to England was to protect the contents for Xenia and Olgas benefit. Read "The Lost Fortune of the Tsars", very good book!
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 21, 2010, 07:49:20 AM
So was there a book published on Helena ?
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: kmerov on July 21, 2010, 03:40:43 PM
No, not by this author, but I don't know if there is a book about Helena.
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 21, 2010, 10:05:23 PM
I think it was listed that Helena talked to a Danish author ?
Title: Re: Maria Feodorovna after the war
Post by: ashdean on July 22, 2010, 02:01:59 PM
I think it was listed that Helena talked to a Danish author ?
Princess Albert of saxe Altenberg lived in Russia at the Chinese palace at Oraienbaum (amongst other residences) even after her marriage and then in her widowhood.
She organised her and her sister in law Countess Carlow (morgantic wife of Duke George of Mecklenberg-Strelitz)'s passage (with the latters daughters and grandchildren) out of Odessa on a british warship and settled at Remplin a family property in Germany.Her surviving brother seems to have joined her there.