Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Imperial Russian Antiques => Topic started by: PeterBB on March 10, 2010, 11:30:41 AM

Title: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: PeterBB on March 10, 2010, 11:30:41 AM
Hello!

Do some know about the jar and I donīt know more than the jar have a Russian look and the imperial monogram!

Kindly,
PeterBB

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/PeterBB/glas1.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/PeterBB/glasmono1.jpg)

(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f77/PeterBB/glasmono2.jpg)
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Forum Admin on March 10, 2010, 04:17:10 PM
Appears to be from the Imperial Glass Works during the reign of Alexander III but I have never seen anything similar to this before.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 10, 2010, 04:25:57 PM
The bright colours, geometrical pattern and "folksy look" remind me of Nicholas II's earthenware coronation beaker (Google Image it to see it) manufactured to be distributed to the masses at Khodynka Field.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: PeterBB on March 10, 2010, 04:36:44 PM
It's a good tip when using this Khodinka cups - I have not thought about that it was a similar pattern as this jar.

But you know maybe what made was this and do you think maybe it might be a jar of Russian Alexander III of Russia's time?
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on March 10, 2010, 04:58:18 PM
Attention Replies # 2 and 3:  There were TWO better-known "Coronation Cups."  The common one (sometimes called "The Cup of Sorrows"), to which I am sure you are referring, Fyodor Petrovich, is flat-enameled over METAL (NOT earthenware).  This is the one with the geometric "strap-work" in the style of this jug.  The EARTHENWARE variety was in monochrome colors over raised and molded bodies.  I believe that there are seven different (separate colors) of manufacture that have been identified for this earthenware cup. A lesser number of this kind of cup survived, and is not seen as frequently, because of breakage. I have examples of both kinds in my collection.  Best regards to you both.  AP
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: PeterBB on March 10, 2010, 05:13:35 PM
To Alaksandr Pavlovich,

Do you see the glass jar before and do you know some more about the jar?
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on March 10, 2010, 05:47:20 PM
Unfortunately, Peter, I can tell you really not much about the jug.  I have never seen much Imperial Russian glassware in my experiences of collecting.  Glassware, in general, makes me "keep my distance," particularly in relation to "reproductions," out-right fakes, etc. There was , of course, a period of time beginning in the latter half of the 19th century, that the "geometric" / "folksy" style was employed in decoration of various items.  IMO, the decoration on this jug has faint "echoes" of that style, but I am not familiar (in my limited knowledge) with that shape.  I agree that the monogram is the cypher of Emperor Alexander III, but were such marks PAINTED on the bottom?  It would seem to me that they would wear away quickly (or could, conversely, be ADDED).   Is the mark shown, painted or etched on/into the glass?  To me it seems clearly PAINTED.  Also, are those scratch marks on the central bottom of the jug?  IMO, it is a very strange pattern of scratching/wear.  Sorry not to be of more definitive help.  AP
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: PeterBB on March 10, 2010, 05:52:08 PM
I see and this was also a problem for me!
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on March 10, 2010, 05:56:13 PM
Peter, please note my just-added thought about the central bottom pattern of "scratch marks" in my Reply #6.     AP
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: PeterBB on March 10, 2010, 05:59:42 PM
These scratch was on the bottom inside of the jar .. after an unsuccessful conferences for the rest!
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on March 10, 2010, 06:05:32 PM
Peter, referencing/quoting your Reply #9:  "These scratch was on the bottom inside of the jar...."   In the close-up photo, please note that on the left arch of the crown, the left upright stroke of the capital "A," and the first "I" of the numeral "III," the scratch marks pass THROUGH and apparently remove/deface portions of those items mentioned that are painted on the OUTSIDE bottom of the jar!  Of course, they could be OTHER scratches, from the exterior.  AP
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Forum Admin on March 10, 2010, 06:34:54 PM
It suddenly occurred to me. This piece while possible old Russian is NOT from the IGW.  I have seen and had some pieces from the Imperial Glass Works and ALL were either unmarked or marked with an incised crown and cypher, NEVER a painted mark.  Not original IPW in my opinion...
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Constantinople on March 16, 2010, 11:55:48 AM
This is just a guess.
From the shape of the jug, with a low centre of gravity and a wide base and the anchor and Alll, I would say that this was a jug that was acquired for one of Alexander lll's yachts, possibly the Tsaravena or Polar Star
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Constantinople on March 17, 2010, 03:30:10 AM
My mistake
   the jug does not have a low centre of gravity but i still believe it was acquired for one of Alexander lll's yachts.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Constantinople on March 17, 2010, 10:15:54 AM
contact this person
she will be able to tell you what it is
Tamara Malinina - Associate Professor, Doctor of Philosophy, leading scholarly researcher, curator of Russian art glass in the State Hermitage. Author of more than 70 publications
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Forum Admin on March 17, 2010, 10:37:55 AM
The piece can not be from an Imperial Yacht. Each Imperial Yacht had its own "cypher" and this piece has none. Also, it does not match the know glassware from these yachts. Please see "An Imperial Fascination," which has photos of these yacht's glass and porcelain services. 

I am 99% certain this piece is NOT Imperial and the mark on the bottom was added later as a fake.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Constantinople on March 17, 2010, 11:47:03 PM
I said that because the anchor on the base was put there after
Which glass manufacturers used an anchor in their work
How do explain the A lll?
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on March 18, 2010, 06:02:02 AM
Attention  "Constantinople"  :  The "anchor" is a simplistic hand-painted rendition of the Imperial Crown, and of course, "AIII"  represents the Emperor Alexander III, uniting to create the Imperial cypher/monogram.     Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Forum Admin on March 18, 2010, 09:29:28 AM
I said that because the anchor on the base was put there after
Which glass manufacturers used an anchor in their work
How do explain the A lll?

I explain the "A III" easily:  that someone deliberately PAINTED IT there later to fool people. It is a fake.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Constantinople on March 18, 2010, 10:16:39 AM
You could be right
I would suggest contacting that woman who is an expert on glass ware and perhaps inviting her to contribute to Alexander Palace as a resident expert.  I am sure she would appreciiate the interest in  her field of expertise.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Forum Admin on March 18, 2010, 10:25:33 AM
The market is now flooded with fake and spurious "Imperial" pieces. Many are genuine 19th century pieces, of inferior quality, that have been later marked in some way as to imply "Imperial" provenance. For example, ebay has dozens of perfectly good 19th century cigarette cases from decent makers, that have had a cheap silver "Imperial" Eagle slapped on and a "faberge" stamp stamped over the REAL maker's mark, and many pieces of inferior porcelain that were unmarked German or French pieces, where an "Imperial" cypher is underglaze painted to suggest coming from the IPF...

99% of what is purporting to be "Imperial" in the market today is FAKE. Buyers MUST be careful.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Constantinople on March 18, 2010, 11:11:41 AM
What is really alarming is going into a reputable antiques dealer and seeing fake Faberge (probably from Bulgaria or Roumania).  I have seen a lot of match boxes and small pieces where  you could tell that the metal work was inferior and the enamel work was third rate.  Ii have also seen and felt genuine Faberge and when you see the real thing, the difference becomes very apparent.
  I still suggest contacting that woman and some of her Russian colleagues to be able to add expert input.
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: Inok Nikolai on January 17, 2012, 10:42:11 PM
Attention Replies # 2 and 3:  There were TWO better-known "Coronation Cups."  The common one (sometimes called "The Cup of Sorrows"), to which I am sure you are referring, Fyodor Petrovich, is flat-enameled over METAL (NOT earthenware).  This is the one with the geometric "strap-work" in the style of this jug.  The EARTHENWARE variety was in monochrome colors over raised and molded bodies.  I believe that there are seven different (separate colors) of manufacture that have been identified for this earthenware cup. A lesser number of this kind of cup survived, and is not seen as frequently, because of breakage. I have examples of both kinds in my collection.  Best regards to you both.  AP

Speaking of those cups, have you seen one of these commemorative cloths printed for distribution to the crowds?

It's 28 inches x 25 inches, and it displays Tsar Nicholas II's initials, the year 1896, with the text "God Save the Tsar".

I think that they may have been used to wrap up the treats given to the common folk.

We acquired ours many years ago when we purchased a chalice from a Russian monastery. It came wrapped in this cloth, which they kindly gave to us too.

I believe that such cloths are rare. A photograph of ours was once used as an illustration in a book on the coronation.

(I'm trying to post this as a thumbnail. Hope it works!)

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_TsaristCloth-1.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=TsaristCloth-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Are that a old russian jar?
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 18, 2012, 06:20:47 AM
Attention Replies # 2 and 3:  There were TWO better-known "Coronation Cups."  The common one (sometimes called "The Cup of Sorrows"), to which I am sure you are referring, Fyodor Petrovich, is flat-enameled over METAL (NOT earthenware).  This is the one with the geometric "strap-work" in the style of this jug.  The EARTHENWARE variety was in monochrome colors over raised and molded bodies.  I believe that there are seven different (separate colors) of manufacture that have been identified for this earthenware cup. A lesser number of this kind of cup survived, and is not seen as frequently, because of breakage. I have examples of both kinds in my collection.  Best regards to you both.  AP

Speaking of those cups, have you seen one of these commemorative cloths printed for distribution to the crowds?

It's 28 inches x 25 inches, and it displays Tsar Nicholas II's initials, the year 1896, with the text "God Save the Tsar".

I think that they may have been used to wrap up the treats given to the common folk.

We acquired ours many years ago when we purchased a chalice from a Russian monastery. It came wrapped in this cloth, which they kindly gave to us too.

I believe that such cloths are rare. A photograph of ours was once used as an illustration in a book on the coronation.

(I'm trying to post this as a thumbnail. Hope it works!)

(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/th_TsaristCloth-1.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/albums/u368/InokNikolai/Royal%20Martyrs/?action=view&current=TsaristCloth-1.jpg)

   Yes, thank you, Father Nikolai, I have seen a few of these cloths.  They were used to wrap the contents/treats of the cups that were distributed. They are indeed more rare than the cups due to the nature of their comparative fragility of material.  If memory serves me correctly, there were a few different designs, but all (and I stand to be corrected) within the color scheme of red/white.  One was displayed in the great "Nicholas and Alexandra Exhibition" that toured in only four cities of the USA some years ago. I viewed the Exhibition twice in Wilmington, Delaware, USA. Though I do not have my copy of their rather heavy hardbound catalogue in front of me at this instant, I feel certain that it is shown in there.    Happy New Year, and thank you for the posting!   Kind Regards,  Aleksandr Pavlovich.