Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Danish Royal Family => Topic started by: kmerov on March 23, 2010, 12:58:59 PM

Title: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 23, 2010, 12:58:59 PM
A thread to discuss the lesser known Ducal families and branches of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg.

The Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg, founded by Duke Hans The Younger (1545-1622), son of King Christian III of Denmark.
When Hans The Younger died his duchy was divided in to five small Duchies, creating the five main lines of Sonderburg.
1. Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg (with many cadet branches, including the Augustenburg and Beck lines).

2. Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Nordburg.

3. Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg (Elder Line).

4. Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön.

5. Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Aerö (Ærø)

Hans the Younger
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Sonderburg%20Ducal%20Families/hansyoungerasold.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 23, 2010, 01:46:20 PM
The last Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön, Duke Friedrich Carl with his family in 1759.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Sonderburg%20Ducal%20Families/th_DucalfamilieofPln.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Sonderburg%20Ducal%20Families/DucalfamilieofPln.jpg)

From left; his youngest daughter, Princess Louise Albertine, Princess of Anhalt-Bernburg, Duke Friedrich Carl, his oldest daughter, Princess Friederike Sophie, Countess of Erbach-Schönberg, his wife Duchess Christine, born Reventlow, his mother Dorothea Christine, born Aichelberg, and finally his second daughter, Princess Charlotte Amalie, Duchess of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on March 23, 2010, 06:06:31 PM
Already love this thread :-) I was looking at almost all lines of this family and I have one question about their religion...the sub-lines of Wiesenburg and Plön-Rethwisch seem to have made marriages only with Catholic families while the other branches did not...were members of this line Catholic and if they were why they changed religion...or if they did not,why marriages only with Catholic noble families?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 23, 2010, 06:12:25 PM
Yes, a few lines were Catholic. They converted because they were in the Emperor's service and/or in order to ingratiate themselves with the Emperor, I think.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on March 23, 2010, 06:28:24 PM
Well,that makes sense then... were there any confrontations between all these lines?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 24, 2010, 01:04:00 PM
No, I don't think that there were any major confrontations between them, but they could argue over inheritance issues with each other and with the Danish Kings.
Politically all the Sonderburg lines were insignificant, and they were subordinates to the King of Denmark and the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on March 24, 2010, 10:16:47 PM
So,was their treatment special because of that?Were something in between sovereign and mediatized?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 25, 2010, 05:59:52 PM
Responding by recollection to your question; No it's more complex than that. The five Duchies status were "lands providing income to the Dukes", like mayor noble estates. The Dukes however had some rights in their Duchies which made them "Principalities". But they were not (shared) sovereign Dukes of Schleswig and Holstein like the King of Denmark and the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp, so the Dukes were subjects to them and their decisions on a variety of matters. In the legal sence there was ONE Duchy of Schleswig and ONE Duchy of Holstein, the first a Danish land and the latter a German land.   
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on March 25, 2010, 09:08:07 PM
Seems very complicated for them...being "the" Duke in the land that someone else rules...in terms of marriage status it seems all branches(more or less) were treated "equally"...Rethwisch line made just marriages to Merode countesses...that is interesting!
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 26, 2010, 11:55:29 AM
The line of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön-Rethwisch served the Holy German Emperor and later under the Spanish King in Belgium. They became Catholics as mentioned and the first Duke, joachim Ernst became a "Grande" and got the order of the "Golden Fleece." He and his son married Belgian noble women from the Merode family, which were a famous and prominent family.
As catholics however, they were barred from inheriting the Duchy of Plön when the main line died out.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on March 26, 2010, 12:11:11 PM
So,that was the case...I often wanted to know why Merode?I know that they are old and prominent noble family,but didn't know that Rethwisch line served in Belgium...I assume Merode countesses were rich enough...do you know maybe which of these lines were the richest and which among the poorest?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 27, 2010, 11:04:56 AM
The richest in land and income was the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön-line. All the Sonderburg lines had debts since they all spend more than their small Duchies could provide them in income. The Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg (the second creation), went bankrupt and was dissolved, and then taken over by the Danish King.

In later years a cadet branch of S-H-Sonderburg, the S-H-S-Augustenburg line was the richest, but they on the other hand did not have a Duchy attached to their line.     
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on March 27, 2010, 11:17:27 AM
Did those lines gain some land through marriages?Did they own land outside this region?When for example Rethwisch and Weisenburg lines died out who inherited their land?Sorry for all those questions but those small Principalities and Duchies are very interesting with a unique position...
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 27, 2010, 05:14:32 PM
No need to apologize for your questions Marc, that's what the thread is all about.

Speaking of the main five lines. No, they did not get any more land through marriages, but sometimes they would buy or inherit large estates from each other. And only within Schleswig-Holstein.
Cadet branches not having a Duchy would buy estates outside of Schleswig-Holstein, such as the Beck (later Younger Glücksburg), Franzhagen and Wiesenburg lines.   

Rethwisch was inherited by the Duke of Plön and Wiesenburg Castle and Estate was sold to the Elector of Saxony.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on March 27, 2010, 10:08:57 PM
Weisenburg Castle is beautiful...no wonder Elector of Saxony wanted to buy it:

http://burgerbe.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/wiesenburg911.jpg?w=300&h=225

http://burgerbe.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/wiesenburg92.jpg?w=300&h=225


I only found this small palace belonging once to the Rethwitsch line:

http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/freizeit/herrenhaeuser/images/RethwischhofA.jpg


Couldn't find anything about Franzhagen line and their ducal Castle :-(
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Learning on March 28, 2010, 01:20:49 PM
What about Schloss Glucksburg? Isn't that the pretty water castle in Schleswig? Who owns it now?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 28, 2010, 03:30:30 PM

Couldn't find anything about Franzhagen line and their ducal Castle :-(

Their Castle Franzhagen dosn't exist anymore. It was demolished back in 1716.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 28, 2010, 03:41:53 PM
What about Schloss Glucksburg? Isn't that the pretty water castle in Schleswig? Who owns it now?

Yes, it is. The Castle is still own by the (Younger) Glückburgs, the descendants of Christian IX's brother, Duke Friedrich.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Learning on March 29, 2010, 08:18:42 AM
Do they actually live at Glucksburg or do they run it as a museum and hotel?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on March 29, 2010, 01:30:24 PM
No, they don't live at the Castle anymore. The Castle is run by a foundation, and serves as a museum and event place.

A link to their homepage http://www.schloss-gluecksburg.de/home-en.html
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 04, 2010, 01:29:37 PM
If you are talking about the smallest, poorest and most insignificant branches, I think the shortlived Ærø line might be the the best candidate!
5. Duchy of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Aerö (Ærø)
I think its only possession was a small manor on the tiny island of Ærø.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 05, 2010, 07:04:59 PM
The Duchy of Ærø was the whole island, and it was the second smallest of the five Duchies created in 1622. It went to the eldest son of Hans the Younger. He did not marry so after his death Ærø was divided between the remaining Duchies.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 06, 2010, 07:40:18 AM
Which was the smallest?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 07, 2010, 06:22:22 PM
The smallest to begin with was the duchy of Glücksburg. Later it was enlarged by inheritance and by the dukes buying estates and such.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 09, 2010, 07:51:31 PM
Some of the more rich descendants of Hans The Younger were Duke Christian Frederik I of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg (1721-1794) and his wife Princess Charlotte Amalie of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön (see family portrait of the Duke of Plön on the previous page).
Charlotte Amalie was seen as a very good catch; she was a princess, she was very beautiful and she was rich. The couple spend some of her money on building the new Augustenburg Palace.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/slotte/th_Augustenborgfront.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/slotte/Augustenborgfront.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/slotte/th_Augustenborgg.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/slotte/Augustenborgg.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/slotte/th_Augustenborg_Gartenfassade.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/slotte/Augustenborg_Gartenfassade.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 09, 2010, 07:54:48 PM
Duke Frederik Christian I of Augustenburg
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/augustenborg%20kassel/FrederikChristianI.jpg)

Duchess Charlotte Amalie of Augustenburg
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/augustenborg%20kassel/CharlotteAmalieDssAugustenburgPssPl.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 09, 2010, 08:17:44 PM
Kmerov,you know who is going to like this post :-) thnx

Do you know if Augustenburgs continued to be rich through generations later or not?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 12, 2010, 07:00:49 PM
Yes, they continued to be quite rich. They had hugh estates and a lavish court at Augustenburg Palace until their exile in 1848.

The Augustenburg family in 1845
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/augustenborg%20kassel/th_augustenbroggruppe.jpg) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/augustenborg%20kassel/augustenbroggruppe.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2010, 05:35:44 AM
Never seen this...thank you!Could you tell me if this is Duke Christian with his wife Lovisa?If so,one of the children must be Prince Christian,husband of Princess Helena?

Even in exile their castle/palace of Primkenau looked quite lavish if we take a note that they were the exiled family of a relatively small Dukedom...
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Bourgogne on April 13, 2010, 01:32:40 PM
Never seen this...thank you!Could you tell me if this is Duke Christian with his wife Lovisa?If so,one of the children must be Prince Christian,husband of Princess Helena?

Even in exile their castle/palace of Primkenau looked quite lavish if we take a note that they were the exiled family of a relatively small Dukedom...

Look, this picture was made partly after Kmerov's beautiful painting.

(http://sitesweb.dnsalias.net/images/Sn/augustenbourg1845.jpg)

You can see Christian-August II and his wife Louise-Sophie Danneskjold-Samsoe, with the children (left to right) Christian, Friedrich, Henriette, Caroline and Louise...

So Christian on the painting is the youg boy, in the left.

Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2010, 07:40:18 PM
Great to see more posts about this family and it's fractions...Does anyone know about relations between Glücksburg line after they became Heirs and after Kings of Denmark and Augustenburg line?As I see the first line was pro-Dansih and the other one pro-German...were they on good terms before or not and what kind of communication they had after one line became Royal and the other "exiled"...?

P.S.Love these paintings and portraits!Thnx ;-)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 13, 2010, 08:06:10 PM
Does anyone know about relations between Glücksburg line after they became Heirs and after Kings of Denmark and Augustenburg line?

Only indirectly: Christian IX and the whole Hesse-Glücksburg clan were preferred by King Frederik VI. He did send Prince Christian August of Augustenborg up to Norway as Commanding General during the crisis of the Napoleonic wars, but the 'Gustenborger proved himself so popular that the enemy, the Swedes, elected him as their Crown Prince. Had he not died prematurely, Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte would never have become Carl XIV Johan! Frederik VI did of course sanction this important decision, but he didn't trust completely in this brother-in-law of his sister. His wife's brother Prince Friedrich of Hesse was sent up to Norway as Stadtholder to keep an eye on Christian August.

Frederik VI wasn't very close to his half-nephew Christian Frederik, the revolutionary Norwegian May King of 1814 and later Christian VIII either. I think Christian VIII was closer to the Augustenborgers: His second wife was one, they shared Danish (i.e. not German) cultural-intellectual interests, and I think he regarded them as presumptive heirs. I don't think his son Frederik VII was close to either branch, probably because they disrespected Countess Danner, and he only grudgingly accepted Christian IX as his designated successor. On the other hand the Augustenborgers had acted as traitors in 1848, so he couldn't really trust them either.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 13, 2010, 08:15:49 PM
It is very interesting to know what kind of relations they all had as they were all so intermarried and connected in other ways...and on the other hand it seems their politics was based on the amount of favor they enjoyed from more powerful countries!
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 14, 2010, 07:19:15 PM

Even in exile their castle/palace of Primkenau looked quite lavish if we take a note that they were the exiled family of a relatively small Dukedom...

Yes, the continued to be well of I think, even after their exile. When Schleswig-Holstein became a part of Prussia, they got back their former Palaces and Castles, Augustenburg, Sonderburg, and Graasten (Gravenstein), but only the latter was actually used by the Ducal family.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 14, 2010, 07:41:16 PM
Great to see more posts about this family and it's fractions...Does anyone know about relations between Glücksburg line after they became Heirs and after Kings of Denmark and Augustenburg line?As I see the first line was pro-Dansih and the other one pro-German...were they on good terms before or not and what kind of communication they had after one line became Royal and the other "exiled"...?


The relationship between the two branches was very good, with the exception of the new Danish RF. Christian (IX) was the only Glücksburg to support the Danish cause in 1848, leaving some of his brothers to fight with the Augustenburgs against Denmark in the war.
Duke Friedrich "Fritz Holstein" of Augustenburgs daughter, Karoline Mathilde marrid Duke Friedrich Ferdinand of Glücksburg in 1885 so the good relationship lasted thru the years. Christian IX and his family were of course never big fans of the Augustenburg family.

So there is a clear difference between the Ducal Glücksburgs and the Danish RF regarding the Augustenburgs.
Prior to the war in 1848 everybody more or less got along fine, visiting each other in the Duchies and seing each other in Copenhagen.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 14, 2010, 08:48:56 PM
Thank you for this...I always wanted to know if the elevation of one line to royal status ever occurred as a reason for some kind of "bad relations" between fractions of this same family...it's so strange to hear that brothers and sisters had to submit to politics,but unfortunately,not unlikely...base for my question were Princess Alexandra of Glücksburg line and Prince Christian of Augustenburg line who married two siblings of the same family...did they have any personal relations at all or did they avoid each other while on British Court because of their family politics?


One more question...when Alexandra arrived and upon marrying future Edward VII her father was still not the King,Tennyson wrote a poem:

"Sea King's daughter from over the sea,
Alexandra!
Saxon and Norman and Dane are we,
But all of us Danes in our welcome of thee,
Alexandra!"

Technically,it would be a great offense to the present King of Denmark(at that time) proclaiming his Heir already a King by writing "Sea King's daughter"...Her father Christian was still at the time of her wedding just an heir to the throne and as such still a member of Glücksburg Ducal line(despite being Prince of Denmark at the same time) while King Frederick VII from the main Oldenburg line was still alive...

or maybe the poem was written later when her father became King of Denmark?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 15, 2010, 09:31:26 AM
Thank you for this...I always wanted to know if the elevation of one line to royal status ever occurred as a reason for some kind of "bad relations" between fractions of this same family...it's so strange to hear that brothers and sisters had to submit to politics,but unfortunately,not unlikely...base for my question were Princess Alexandra of Glücksburg line and Prince Christian of Augustenburg line who married two siblings of the same family...did they have any personal relations at all or did they avoid each other while on British Court because of their family politics?


One more question...when Alexandra arrived and upon marrying future Edward VII her father was still not the King,Tennyson wrote a poem:

"Sea King's daughter from over the sea,
Alexandra!
Saxon and Norman and Dane are we,
But all of us Danes in our welcome of thee,
Alexandra!"

Technically,it would be a great offense to the present King of Denmark(at that time) proclaiming his Heir already a King by writing "Sea King's daughter"...Her father Christian was still at the time of her wedding just an heir to the throne and as such still a member of Glücksburg Ducal line(despite being Prince of Denmark at the same time) while King Frederick VII from the main Oldenburg line was still alive...

or maybe the poem was written later when her father became King of Denmark?

You are welcome. Alexandra and Christian of Augustenburg becoming in-laws made Alexandra very unhappy, so no they never had any deeper personel relationship, but of course the saw each other from time to time. Alexandra and her family seems to have resented him more than he did them. Christian IX and other Danish relatives would see Christian Augustenburg when visiting England.

As regard to your second question, I think that the fact that it was a poem made it ok to write Sea King's daughter, eventhough Frederik VII was still king, and Christian at that time was second in line to the throne.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 15, 2010, 05:46:29 PM
Ok,my main interest was that it didn't cause any problem...sometimes rulers can have a lot of pride and are not willing to tolerate such things...obviously Frederik VII was not "moved" by that song...

Do you know,where there any meetings between Danish RF(former Glücksburgs) with Augustenburgs or Ducal Glücksburg after their exile and their support to Germany...so much connected that they can't avoid each other and so much difference in political views and jet depending on it...
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 15, 2010, 07:34:08 PM
Ok,my main interest was that it didn't cause any problem...sometimes rulers can have a lot of pride and are not willing to tolerate such things...obviously Frederik VII was not "moved" by that song...

Do you know,where there any meetings between Danish RF(former Glücksburgs) with Augustenburgs or Ducal Glücksburg after their exile and their support to Germany...so much connected that they can't avoid each other and so much difference in political views and jet depending on it...

Yes, there were meetings. Christian IX oldest brother, Duke Carl of Glücksburg was married to Princess Wilhelmine of Denmark, daughter of King Frederik VI, so after some years he was forgiven and became a regular visitor to Copenhagen, but he never was a popular person. Christian IX's other brothers also came for visits. As you probably know, Prince Harald, son of King Frederik VIII married ill-famed Princess Helena of Glücksburg so the ties continued.
The Augustenburgs did not come to Denmark anymore, but the Danish RF met them on different occasions. When Christian IX came to England in 1867 he bumped into Prince Christian of Augustenburg, who tried to start a conversation by speaking to the king about the same sorrow the had shared with the deaths of both their mothers that year. The king agreed, and that was the end of that conversátion.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2010, 05:33:57 AM
That is rather unfortunate...am I wrong when I think that every line thought of themselves as a different family,not a unique one?I also think that that is the reason they distanced themselves among each other...

Meanwhile,I found a tombstone portrait of Duchess Karoline von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Weisenburg...I think that she was the last of her line-Piast family and married to Duke Friedrich von S-H-S-Weisenburg...she was raised as Calvinist,but became Catholic upon her marriage...They married secretly(wonder why?) but the marriage proved unsuccessful...they had one son Leopold who succeeded his father as Duke when he died in 1724.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Karolina_Piast%C3%B3wna.JPG/450px-Karolina_Piast%C3%B3wna.JPG
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 16, 2010, 12:56:48 PM
One more question...when Alexandra arrived and upon marrying future Edward VII her father was still not the King,Tennyson wrote a poem:

"Sea King's daughter from over the sea,
Alexandra!
Saxon and Norman and Dane are we,
But all of us Danes in our welcome of thee,
Alexandra!"

Technically,it would be a great offense to the present King of Denmark(at that time) proclaiming his Heir already a King by writing "Sea King's daughter"...Her father Christian was still at the time of her wedding just an heir to the throne and as such still a member of Glücksburg Ducal line(despite being Prince of Denmark at the same time) while King Frederick VII from the main Oldenburg line was still alive...

If it was taken literally one could also object to the fact that in Old Norse/Danish/Viking parlance, a "sea king" (sækonungr) was not a territorial ruler, but more like a pirate leader!
In modern Danish it's a more peaceful creature though: søkonge (http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8konge) :-)

Though of course it can also be an allusion to the legendary Danish royal line of the Skjoldungs / Scyldings, known from Beowulf. Their legendary ancestor, King Skjold or Scyld, allegedly came to Denmark, England or Scania from the sea, in a boat or on a sheaf of grain, in some versions as a baby and/or son of of the god Odin. Obvious parallells to Moses in the basket and the Merovingians' legendary ancestor Merovech (who in light of the Holy Blood, Holy Grail legend can be interpreted as Mary Magdalen's offspring with Christ.... :-)

More to the point had it perhaps been if Tennyson had added "Angles" to the list of "Saxon, Norman and Dane" and focused on Alexandra as a Glücksborger, Glücksborg being situated in the region of Angeln, legendary ancestral home of the Angles who gave their name to Ænglaland / Anglia / England :-)

The erratic and archeologically interested, but also pragamatic Frederik VII may have thought: Better not go down that path.... :-)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 16, 2010, 05:34:12 PM
That is rather unfortunate...am I wrong when I think that every line thought of themselves as a different family,not a unique one?I also think that that is the reason they distanced themselves among each other...


Well, each branch had its own history since their creation, thus they grew apart. The different lines that lived in the Duchies visited eachother and were on friendly terms, but argued over inheritance issues and such.  
The two longest living branches (Augustenburg and Glücksburg Younger line)also had different backgrounds.The Augustenburg line lived in the Danish Monarchy always, whereas the Glücksburgs (then known as the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck line) had made a carriere outside of Denmark, only returning in the beginning of the 19th century. But they supported each other in the war of 1848, because of common values and perceptions.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 16, 2010, 05:41:17 PM
Meanwhile,I found a tombstone portrait of Duchess Karoline von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Weisenburg...I think that she was the last of her line-Piast family and married to Duke Friedrich von S-H-S-Weisenburg...she was raised as Calvinist,but became Catholic upon her marriage...They married secretly(wonder why?) but the marriage proved unsuccessful...they had one son Leopold who succeeded his father as Duke when he died in 1724.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Karolina_Piast%C3%B3wna.JPG/450px-Karolina_Piast%C3%B3wna.JPG

Are you talking about Charlotte of Liegnitz? She married Duke Friedrich of Wiesenburg against her mothers wishes.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 16, 2010, 07:31:47 PM
Yes,in German sites she is referred as Charlotte and in Polish ones she is Caroline...strange :-/

Do you know what was the cause her mother didn't wish such a marriage...maybe religion?Her husband Duke Friedrich was quite close to the Emperor himself...that would be a "good qualification"...maybe she had some bigger plans for her daughter?

I read that after her family died out in male line her allowance was reduced by the Emperor...obviously they were not in such good terms despite his good relationship with her former husband with whom she had a son Leopold...
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 16, 2010, 07:40:37 PM
Quote from: Myself, on another thread
After the dynasty died out, the King of Denmark and the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Gottorp took over Oldenburg by heritage in 1667. In 1676 the King of Denmark was the only ruler on Oldenburg (I don´t know why S-H-G lost their rights)
Pure "might is right". That Duke Christian Albrecht of S-H-Gottorp did not receive his due share of Oldenburg-Delmenhorst from his father-in-law (and Head of the House of Oldenburg) King Frederik III was a major reason for the Gottorps becoming hostile to Denmark and forming alliances with Sweden. A technical reason was that the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Plön for some reason also was entitled to some part of the inheritance. Being an ally of Frederik III, the Duke of Plön ceded his rights to Denmark, who thus controlled "the majority" of lots.

I read in Dansk Biografisk Lexikon's article on Baron Andreas Paulsen/Pauli von Liliencron (bourgeois-born ancestor of a widespread S-H family), who was King Frederik III's  envoy in Vienna charged with settling the Oldenburg inheritance, realized that the Duke of S-H(-Sonderburg)-Plön was going to win the case in the Imperial Court Council and therefore advised Frederik III and Christian V to strike a deal with him, which the Emperor, favouring an alliance with Denmark, approved of.  
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 16, 2010, 10:00:12 PM
Here is a German biographical article about Andreas Liliencron (http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/artikelADB_018-646-01.html) which concentrates on his role in the Oldenburg Succession case in great detail. But it's still not clear for me why Plön, the youngest branch of the Sonderburg lines, should be heirs along with the royal and Gottorf lines. Because they were the only of the Sonderburg lines with lands in Holstein, i.e. in the Empire, and thus more immediate than the other mere apanaged Sonderburg lines?

Interestingly the article notes that the seed of contention sown in the Oldenburg Succession Case poisoned the Gottorp line's relation to the royal line right up to the Congress of Vienna, where the hostility between Emperor Alexander I and Frederik VI of Denmark was its last flowering.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 17, 2010, 01:11:10 AM
BTW personally I've always thought it strange that royalty buffs don't take more interest in the Dukes Christian August II and Frederik (VIII) of Augustenborg, the Prince of Nør and Christian August of Augustenborg and Sweden. I mean, how often do you find royals who lead revolutions instead of being their victims?
The same goes for the lack of interest in such dramatic, revolutionary characters as the Augustenborgers' cousin and brother-in-law Christian Frederik of Norway - and the prototype of the royal revolutionary: Willem of Orange.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 17, 2010, 09:53:20 AM
Yes,in German sites she is referred as Charlotte and in Polish ones she is Caroline...strange :-/

Do you know what was the cause her mother didn't wish such a marriage...maybe religion?Her husband Duke Friedrich was quite close to the Emperor himself...that would be a "good qualification"...maybe she had some bigger plans for her daughter?

I read that after her family died out in male line her allowance was reduced by the Emperor...obviously they were not in such good terms despite his good relationship with her former husband with whom she had a son Leopold...

No, I don't know why but maybe it was money issues. The Emperor was asked to settle the matter at the bequest of Friedrich father and the king of Denmark, and a proper wedding took place, but the marriage was unhappy and they lived seperately. Their son Leopold converted to catholisicm.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 17, 2010, 10:01:02 AM
BTW personally I've always thought it strange that royalty buffs don't take more interest in the Dukes Christian August II and Frederik (VIII) of Augustenborg, the Prince of Nør and Christian August of Augustenborg and Sweden. I mean, how often do you find royals who lead revolutions instead of being their victims?
The same goes for the lack of interest in such dramatic, revolutionary characters as the Augustenborgers' cousin and brother-in-law Christian Frederik of Norway - and the prototype of the royal revolutionary: Willem of Orange.

Well, they are minor royals in the 19th century pool of grand Imperial and Royal Houses. Hovewer they are of course written about in Denmark, but also in a lot of other books dealing with 19th century royalty. Frederik (VIII) of Augusenburg, "Fritz Holstein" was a victim of Bismarck and friends with Friedrich III and Victoria, "Vicky" and their children married, so that gives him some coverage.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 17, 2010, 05:48:25 PM
Well, they are minor royals in the 19th century pool of grand Imperial and Royal Houses.

But not all members of "grand Imperial and Royal Houses" are that interesting to read about and discuss. Their obscure, inactive and/or ordinary lives do of course deserve the same respect and attention that any human life does, but I think it's funny that Prince Christian of Augustenborg or S-H is much more discussed just because of who he married, even though there actually is very little we know / can say about him, in stark contrast to those very active relations of his mentioned above, who made (revolutionary) history through their actions.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 17, 2010, 06:16:46 PM
Yes, I understand what your are saying, but it is of course a matter of interest, who among the royals gets your attention and why.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 17, 2010, 06:20:10 PM
But here is a picture of Prince Frederik of Augustenburg, the Prince of Nør, the other half of the "traitor" brothers. 
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/augustenborg%20kassel/frederikofnor.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 17, 2010, 06:36:13 PM
Patriotic, early 20th-century portrayal of the proclamation of the Provisional Government in 1848, with the Prince of Nør as a leading member center stage: Painting by Hans Olde (http://www.geschichte-s-h.de/vonabisz/bilder/erhebung.jpg)

Quote
the other half of the "traitor" brothers.
It really was rather dishonest, wasn't it, because they used their Danish uniforms to get into the strong fortress of Rendsburg, didn't they?

Interesting that the S-H Constitution of 15th of September 1848 (http://nordslesvig.dk/cms/dan/index.php?Kildetekster:Grundgestz_Schleswig-Holstein_1848) t was "the most democratic constitution Europe had seen".
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 17, 2010, 07:13:58 PM
Yes, they were dishonest, and breaking their oath of allegiance to Frederik VII aswell. The argument that he was being held captive by revolutionaries, was just an ecxuse to start the war. Duke Christian August of Augustenburg and Frederik of Nør took the opportunity with the rest of the German Schleswig-Holstein movement to try to create a S-H state and join the German Union. 
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 17, 2010, 07:31:45 PM
And then followed the many posters of the "traitors". Before the national conflicts they would introduce themselves as Danish Princes.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/augustenborg%20kassel/a_landsforraederne.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on April 17, 2010, 09:28:41 PM
Does anybody know what kind of relationship the Prince of Nør's children and grandchildren, who married commoners, had with their more princely and royal relations at the courts of both Britain, Prussia and others?

The Prince of Nør's son with his first wife, Friedrich August, Count of Nør, a scholar who was welcomed in Denmark after the banishment of the Augustenborgs was lifted, was married to a certain Carmelita Henriette Sophie Mathilde Eisenblat from Hamburg and had two daughters with her. According to Dansk Biografisk Lexikon, she had to fight a lengthy legal battle with her husband's cousin Prince Christian in Britain to keep ownership of the estates Nör and Grönwohld, which had been a secondogenitur in the Augustenborg family.

Idyllic Noer / Nör / Nør by Eckernförde / Egernførde on the Dänischer Wohld peninsula between Schleswig and Kiel:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/GermanyNoerSchlossHaupthaus.jpg)
I don't think the estates are in private ownership today.

And I'm starting to feel the need for a good overview of the whole Augustenborg genealogy! Something which caught my attention regarding the early Dukes, is that they all had ca. 10 children, but in every generation only one or a few boys and no girls grew up! Taking the high infant mortality of the times into account, it was odd that all except the heir (and spare) died.

While the current (Glücksborg) Dukes of S-H sport the full overcrowded arms featuring Norway, Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Ditmarschen, Oldenburg and Delmenhorst (as did the Danish royal arms untill 1972), the Prussian Augustenborgers, having declared themselves Dukes of S-H, seem to have adopted simplified quartered arms, which I think very beautiful (more so than the current divided per pale S-H state arms) especially because of the more symmetrical colour scheme; here depicted in the alliance arms of Auguste Victoria and Wilhelm of Prussia:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Wappen_Deutsches_Reich_-_Alliance-Wappen_der_Kaiserin_Auguste_Victoria.png/400px-Wappen_Deutsches_Reich_-_Alliance-Wappen_der_Kaiserin_Auguste_Victoria.png)
Does anybody know if the British Augustenborgers also sported these simplified arms, despite not being descended from Duke Friedrich VIII?

For comparison, the traditional arms that was common for all the S-H lines (every quarter except Schleswig has a red field) - and the modern S-H state arms:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/8/89/WappenSchleswigHolsteinGottorf.png/200px-WappenSchleswigHolsteinGottorf.png)   (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Landeswappen_Schleswig-Holstein.png/150px-Landeswappen_Schleswig-Holstein.png)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on April 19, 2010, 05:47:57 PM
Does anybody know what kind of relationship the Prince of Nør's children and grandchildren, who married commoners, had with their more princely and royal relations at the courts of both Britain, Prussia and others?

The Prince of Nør's son with his first wife, Friedrich August, Count of Nør, a scholar who was welcomed in Denmark after the banishment of the Augustenborgs was lifted, was married to a certain Carmelita Henriette Sophie Mathilde Eisenblat from Hamburg and had two daughters with her. According to Dansk Biografisk Lexikon, she had to fight a lengthy legal battle with her husband's cousin Prince Christian in Britain to keep ownership of the estates Nör and Grönwohld, which had been a secondogenitur in the Augustenborg family.


I think that at least his children had contacts with European courts. In the 1850s they lived in Paris and met with European royalty there.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on April 22, 2010, 06:49:09 AM
Just curios,where members of these Duchies no matter how small they were ever considered or treated as "cousins" by for example Russian Imperial Family who were also one branch of the family?Denmark had strong ties and connections with them and I assume that they are more or less treated as such by the RF...
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on May 07, 2010, 06:45:33 PM
I think they were treated as cousins by the Russian IF, just as the Danish RF was. Christian IX grand father, Duke Friedrich of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck served in the Russian military for some years.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 08:22:47 AM
Thanks for this...in a letter to Emperor Nicholas II Princess Leonille zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn signed herself in the end as "your devoted cousin Leonille"...I often wondered why a "cousin" and I looked into genealogy and saw that her grandmother was Princess Catharina von Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck(1750-1811) and that that was maybe the reason she felt that kind of relation-her grandmother being of the same family as the Emperor himself...

That would also explain that those other lines of the Oldenburg were treated favorably in Russia...although distantly related they could always see themselves as cousins as members of the same extended family as the Imperial one...
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on May 08, 2010, 07:11:59 PM
A portrait of Duchess Anna Caroline, last Duchess of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg Elder line. After her death in 1824, Glücksborg Castle was given to King Christian IX's father, Duke Wilhelm.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Sonderburg%20Ducal%20Families/AnnaCarolineDssofGlcksborgEL.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 08, 2010, 07:23:38 PM
After her death in 1824, Glücksborg Castle was given to King Christian IX's father, Duke Wilhelm.

Instead of ending up as a Danish-French dukedom. See this post for details. (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=6967.msg410027#msg410027)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on May 08, 2010, 07:47:21 PM
Yes, thats an interesting story. Appearantly Decazes thought that the dowager duchess somehow could transfer the title and Castle to him, which of course she couldn't.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on May 08, 2010, 11:55:59 PM
Thank you both for this story...never heard of this...is this portrait in a book about Schleswig-Holstein dukes?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on May 18, 2010, 07:32:04 PM
Yes, the portrait is from a Danish book about all the ducal branches of Schleswig-Holstein, "de slesvigske hertuger" by Carsten Porskrog Rasmussen.
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on May 19, 2010, 11:33:20 PM
While googling I found a portrait labeled as Prince Leopold von Schleswig-Holstein-Weisenburg...kmerov might know if it's really him:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/LeoSHW.jpg)

Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: kmerov on May 21, 2010, 09:01:59 AM
Wonderful portrait Marc, and it does look like him.

A stylistic illustration of a young Duke Leopold (1674-1744)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Sonderburg%20Ducal%20Families/hertugLeopold1674-1744wi-1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on May 21, 2010, 12:55:05 PM
Thank you for answering...one step forward in researching those sidelines of this same family...To be frank,I never saw a portrait of anyone from Weisenburg part of the family,that's why I wasn't sure if it's labeled correctly,but now I am glad I contributed to the thread as much as I can and know ;)

Kmerov and Fyodor know much more about these topics so it's very interesting to read all your posts about the family side that seemed to be very unknown and forgotten,so I am looking forward to any new post :-) 
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: José on May 21, 2010, 03:10:13 PM
A portrait of Duchess Anna Caroline, last Duchess of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg Elder line. After her death in 1824, Glücksborg Castle was given to King Christian IX's father, Duke Wilhelm.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y69/kmerov/Sonderburg%20Ducal%20Families/AnnaCarolineDssofGlcksborgEL.jpg)

Who is this Anna Carolina ?
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on May 21, 2010, 03:38:58 PM
Who is this Anna Carolina ?

Anna Karoline (1751-1824), born a Princess of Nassau-Saarbrücken, married firstly in 1769 Duke Friedrich Heinrich of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg and having been widowed, secondly in 1782 Duke Friedrich Karl of Brunswick-Bevern, who had been Royal Danish Governor of Rendsburg and Copenhagen and was Danish General Field Marshall. She continued to live at Glücksburg with her second husband. Neither marriage produced children and both husbands were the last of their lines!
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: José on May 24, 2010, 03:11:07 PM
Thank you

José
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on May 24, 2010, 07:02:28 PM
Very small portrait of Princess Maria Anna Leopoldine von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck...

http://www.geneall.net/img/pessoas/pes_17482.jpg

Is there any better version of this?

Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on July 05, 2010, 06:01:27 PM
Yes, the portrait is from a Danish book about all the ducal branches of Schleswig-Holstein, "de slesvigske hertuger" by Carsten Porskrog Rasmussen.

I finally purchased THE book and it's wonderful,although I must be very concentrated to read it because it's in German...it would be great to have some more sources like that...thank you for pointing out to this book ;-)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on December 14, 2010, 12:34:03 AM
Here is a German biographical article about Andreas Liliencron (http://www.deutsche-biographie.de/artikelADB_018-646-01.html) which concentrates on his role in the Oldenburg Succession case in great detail. But it's still not clear for me why Plön, the youngest branch of the Sonderburg lines, should be heirs along with the royal and Gottorf lines. Because they were the only of the Sonderburg lines with lands in Holstein, i.e. in the Empire, and thus more immediate than the other mere apanaged Sonderburg lines?

I think I found the answer in "Handbuch einer historisch-statistisch-geographischen Beschreibung des Herzogthums Oldenburg sammt der Erbherrschaft Iever, und der beiden Fürstenthümer Lübeck und Birkenfeld" by Ludwig Kohli, from 1824. Iquote from page 38:

"Mittlerweile war der Herzog Ioachim Ernst von Holstein=Plön, als
näherer Lehns-Agnat, mit seinen Ansprüchen an diese Grafschaften, von
welchen, als einem alten Reichslehn, er seine Vettern ganz
ausschließen zu können glaubte, öffentlich aufgetreten; wiederholte
nicht nur seine, schon 1656 beim kaiserl. Reichshofrath eingegebene,
auf die Cassation des zu Rendsburg (1649) geschlossenen
Oldenburgischen Erbfolgevergleichs gehende Klage, sondern trug auch,
mit Wiederholung seiner gegen die Dänisch=Gottorpische Besitznehmung
dieser Grafschaften zu Oldenburg eingelegten Protestation, darauf an,
daß alles wieder in den vorigen Stand gesetzt, und ihm, als nächsten
Agnaten, diese Grafschaften zuerkannt würden."


 It really is amazing that just because he was the last Oldenburger of his generation, i.e. great grandson of their common ancestor King Frederik I, Ernst Joachim could successfully protest against the heirs designated by Anton Günther II: King Frederik III, who was a great great grandson of Frederik I and Duke Christian Albrecht, who was a great great great grandson (all of course in the male line only.) This old non-lineal law of succession only applied to imperial fiefs like Oldenburg
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on March 11, 2011, 07:39:11 AM
One more member of Weisenburg branch...Eleonore who was Duchess of Gonzaga-Guastalla(1715-1760):


(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/EleWeis.jpg)
Title: Re: The Ducal Families of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg
Post by: Marc on November 02, 2011, 08:23:30 AM
Princess Katharina von Schleswig-Holstein-Beck with her family by Angelika Kauffmann:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/beck.jpg)