Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Servants, Friends and Retainers => Topic started by: Louise on April 06, 2004, 12:27:17 PM

Title: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Louise on April 06, 2004, 12:27:17 PM
I haven't read much in the area of Sailor/Nurse Nagorny.

What was his background, other than a sailor on the Standart? Why was he chosen as nurse to Alexei? Has there been any history given on his family and what happened to them after the revolution.

His devotion to Alexei and the family has always touched my heart.

Louise
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Jane on April 06, 2004, 02:24:48 PM
Ditto, Louise.  I've actually found out more about Nagorny than I ever knew before as I continue reading Fate of the Romanovs.  I have always categorized him as the "junior" sailor-nanny, after Derevenko.  Was surprised to learn that the Ipatiev guards apparently discovered some hand grenades in the room he and Ivan Sednev had stayed in before they were sent to the Ekaterinburg city jail.  

Jane
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Louise on April 06, 2004, 04:53:00 PM
Thanks Jane. I'm still reading FOTR so I have to be patient.

Louise
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Jane on April 06, 2004, 05:16:16 PM
Whoops...I am so sorry, Louise.  Hope I didn't spoil anything!  :-[

Hope you are enjoying it as much as I am.

Jane

Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Louise on April 06, 2004, 05:20:23 PM
I am enjoying the book  tremendously. You didn't spoil it at all. Just gave me more to look forward to. Unfortunately work and life interfer with my play time here and reading.

Louise
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: ptitchka on April 06, 2004, 10:00:56 PM
Now this servant and true friend to the Tsarevich I truly admire.  I haven't seen that much about him, other than in FotR and one very nice picture in the photograph book 'Royal Russia', in which Nagorny stands calf-deep in water, holding Alexei - who smiles a very sweet, calm smile.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: borgia on April 11, 2004, 09:41:34 PM
The story of the sailor care taker ,Nagorny,has always interested me too.Does anyone know the fate of the other care taker who left the family?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 11, 2004, 10:04:40 PM
If you are refering to Derevenko. he is discussed on another thread. He died in the early 1920's while fighting for the Whites in the Civil War.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: borgia on April 12, 2004, 06:44:58 PM
Lisa.Yes,thank you.It was Derevenko I was interested in.After I posted my asking,I saw that there was alot about him.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: borgia on April 25, 2004, 10:56:42 AM
Were the bodies of Sednev and Nagorny ever found ?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 25, 2004, 02:09:52 PM
I think the Whites found them?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: borgia on April 27, 2004, 07:19:40 PM
 Lisa.Thank you.After I posted my question,I read that Nagorny and Sednev had been found;afew months after their deaths.Most likely by the whites.I  dont think that Prince Michael Romanov,and his secrectary,Brian Johnson,were ever found after their deaths.One of the men involved with killing them I think,took and kept,Johnsons watch.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: ptitchka on July 16, 2004, 06:59:35 AM
Rejoice, o faithful companion to thy suffering young master, having gone fearlessly before him into martyrdom by only days!
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Candice on July 16, 2004, 10:17:18 AM
I wonder if there is a web site that I can view photos of the sailors Derevenko, Nagorny and Sednev. Can anyone help me? Thank you.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Genevieve on September 20, 2004, 12:14:03 AM
Maybe someone can answer something I always wondered.  Did   Nagorny go with Alex when he went
to the front with his father?   Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 20, 2004, 12:36:21 AM
I believe that Nagorny and Derevenko worked in rotation as part of Alexei's suite. So, it is likely that one or both accompanied him to the Stavka.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Genevieve on September 20, 2004, 11:46:32 PM
Thank you that was something I never was able to find in all my books.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Anastasia_R on June 17, 2005, 07:51:32 PM
I always really liked Nagorny,he seemed like a very kind man and he really liked Alexei.I wish he hadn't been shot.:(
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Historybuff_262 on August 23, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
Hi, I was just wondering if anybody had any info on Nagorny.
I can't find any basic information anywhere.

And yes, I have checked the other threads.  ;D :) ;)
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 24, 2006, 12:07:15 AM
According to one source Klementy Nagorny was born in 1889 and died in 1918, age 29. He was a former sailor on the Standart and was one of two sailor nannies (along with Derevenko) to the Tsesarevitch. He was murdered by the Bolsheviks prior to the murder of the Imperial Family. I believe his remains were found by the Whites.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 25, 2006, 01:26:09 PM
Sad, very sad.  :'( :'(
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on September 09, 2006, 05:27:26 PM
Wasn't he removed from the Ipatiev House and shot after trying to stop the guards pilfering the Imperial Family's belongings?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on September 09, 2006, 06:54:23 PM
According to one source, that story was a rumor perpetuated by Prince George Lvov. Lvov claimed that he and Nagorny were imprisoned in Ekaterinburg together, and that Nagorny himself told the story of protesting the theft of a gold cross belonging to Aleksei. However, Lvov is apparently not a credible witness. He informed President Wilson in a letter that he had been imprisoned in Ekaterinburg at the end of February 1918, then escaped after five weeks and fled across Siberia, arriving in Vladivostock in July. That makes it *impossible* for Lvov to have been in the Ekaterinburg City Prison on May 27 -- the *only* night Nagorny spent there. Nagorny and Ivan Sednev were then shot on May 31, eliminating any further possiblity of communicating with Lvov.

Lvov told a number of wildly false tales about the Romanovs' captivity, often contradicting himself in the process --

That source's theory is that Nagorny and Sednev were removed from the Ipatiev house simply because they were young able-bodied men that "represented a threat to the power of the Special Detatchment." With Sednev and Nagorny gone, they had only the women, 4 middle-aged men, and two young boys to guard.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: OlgaNRomanovaFan on September 10, 2006, 06:18:56 AM
Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Historybuff_262 on September 10, 2006, 10:34:43 AM
Yes, thanks for the info everybody.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Belochka on September 11, 2006, 12:00:32 AM
Yes, thanks for the info everybody.
I'm surprised, but a published source definitely has the most information about him
I've seen.

Similar information about Nargorny was published in a number of older Russian publications, one of which is  Tsetsarevich  in 1998.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Annie on September 12, 2006, 08:55:17 AM
I wouldn't discount Lvov's story because of a theory. It could have happened. We may never know the entire truth. But I do think it's very possible Nagorny would have tried to defend Alexei against any attack, he had been doing nothing but guarding him for many years.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on September 12, 2006, 11:37:27 AM
I wouldn't discount Lvov's story because of a theory. It could have happened.  We may never know the entire truth. But I do think it's very possible Nagorny would have tried to defend Alexei against any attack, he had been doing nothing but guarding him for many years.
Annie's point is valid, but let me clarify: I'm not discounting the story because of a theory, I'm discounting it because Lvov's own timetable for his whereabouts at the time of Nagorny's arrest make the story impossible. What I quoted was only a small portion of the discussion of Lvov's credability,   I don't agree with everything in that source, but I choose to believe the information (as well as the theories) on Lvov -- it's just more plausible to my mind than the theft. At any rate, if the story about the theft were true, it doesn't account for Sednev's simultaneous arrest. I'll double-check Alexandra's diary for clues when I get home tonight; it seems to me Sednev & Nagorny's removal is something worthy of mention - with or without theft being involved -  and I'd take her word over Lvov's any day.

Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on September 12, 2006, 10:49:43 PM
From Alexandra's diary, 14/27 May 1918:

"At 6:30 Sednyov & Nagorny were taken off to the District Committee. don't [sic] know the reason."
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on September 28, 2006, 05:44:34 PM

  I'm surprised more isn't known about Nagorny.  As Alexei's nanny at times he was extremely important to the IF. The Family intimates who published memoirs after the Revolution might understandibly not have said much about him, but I would think subsequent researchers might have discovered more.

  In any case I  think I know enough to greatly respect and admire him. He came to Tatiana's aid at Ekaterinburg and there is considerable reason to credit the story of standing up for Alexei against would-be Bolshevik thieves. At at ime when he moved among such hostile men, this alone showed great courage. To be a sailor loyal to the IF then was obviously a provocation to Red extremists.

  Above all he remained faithful to the end. He chose exile and the associated danger of it freely. Not that many did. I know I'm putting the case strongly, but I believe he was a hero. May God bless Nagorny. And we should remember him.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: koloagirl on September 29, 2006, 10:30:48 AM
 :)

Here is a picture that was identified as Nagorny:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Koloagirl/811.jpg)

Please correct me if I am wrong (I believe he is the gentleman on the left) -- thanks!

Janet R.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Historybuff_262 on September 29, 2006, 08:19:45 PM

  I'm surprised more isn't known about Nagorny.  As Alexei's nanny at times he was extremely important to the IF. The Family intimates who published memoirs after the Revolution might understandibly not have said much about him, but I would think subsequent researchers might have discovered more.

  In any case I  think I know enough to greatly respect and admire him. He came to Tatiana's aid at Ekaterinburg and there is considerable reason to credit the story of standing up for Alexei against would-be Bolshevik thieves. At at ime when he moved among such hostile men, this alone showed great courage. To be a sailor loyal to the IF then was obviously a provocation to Red extremists.

  Above all he remained faithful to the end. He chose exile and the associated danger of it freely. Not that many did. I know I'm putting the case strongly, but I believe he was a hero. May God bless Nagorny. And we should remember him.

Bon mots Rodney.  :) Hear Hear

BTW, In the last diary of Alexandra (lucky enough to find thanks to Half Priced Books)
It said his patronym was Gregorovitch. I'm pretty sure.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: rosieposie on March 08, 2007, 04:09:54 AM
I cant seem to find the servant forums but I would love to see pics of Nargony.  That would make my day  :)
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on March 08, 2007, 08:35:57 AM
The man on the left of this photo is Nagorny:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Aleksei/th_811.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Aleksei/811.jpg)


I believe this may be him as well:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Aleksei/th_swellingknee.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/Aleksei/swellingknee.jpg)


I'm pretty sure I have other photos of Nagorny. I'll post them as I find them...
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: rosieposie on March 09, 2007, 04:40:28 AM
Thanks for these.  I am love the two pics. Cant wait to see others :-)
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on March 10, 2007, 12:17:11 PM
The tall fellow could be Nagorny:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/water/th_fishingotm.jpg) (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/sarahelizabethii/Romanov/NAOTMAA%20assorted/water/fishingotm.jpg)
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: grandduchess_42 on March 10, 2007, 02:11:43 PM
Did alexei ever grow out of Nargony?
i don't remember, did he go with them into the basement?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: rosieposie on March 11, 2007, 06:19:20 AM
I dont think Alexei grew out of Nargony.  I think Nargony was a brother figure for him.   Nargony was very protective of Alexei even if I think I can recall when they were in exile some greedy guard went to take Alexei's religious icons cause it had gold inlays or something like that and Nargony told the guard off.  I think the guard backed away from the Alexei after that.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: grandduchess_42 on March 11, 2007, 09:27:40 AM
wow thanks for  that piece of information!
haha stupid gaurd! :)

yes i think so too, that nargony was like a big brother for him! i mean he had 4 older sisters!!!
being the only boy in the family i'm sure you might have wanted a bro to hang out with!!!

Sarushka can you help me with this?
i saw this picture of ALexei getting a hair cut with his governess and some man, would that man be Nargony or
the other  man?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on March 11, 2007, 10:20:24 AM
Nargony was very protective of Alexei even if I think I can recall when they were in exile some greedy guard went to take Alexei's religious icons cause it had gold inlays or something like that and Nargony told the guard off.  I think the guard backed away from the Alexei after that.

That story about the guard might be a myth. Here's a post I wrote about it on anther thread:

According to one source, that story was a rumor perpetuated by Prince George Lvov. Lvov claimed that he and Nagorny were imprisoned in Ekaterinburg together, and that Nagorny himself told the story of protesting the theft of a gold cross belonging to Aleksei. However, Lvov is apparently not a credible witness. He informed President Wilson in a letter that he had been imprisoned in Ekaterinburg at the end of February 1918, then escaped after five weeks and fled across Siberia, arriving in Vladivostock in July. That makes it *impossible* for Lvov to have been in the Ekaterinburg City Prison on May 27 -- the *only* night Nagorny spent there. Nagorny and Ivan Sednev were then shot on May 31, eliminating any further possiblity of communicating with Lvov.

Lvov told a number of wildly false tales about the Romanovs' captivity, often contradicting himself in the process.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on March 11, 2007, 10:24:07 AM
Sarushka can you help me with this?
i saw this picture of ALexei getting a hair cut with his governess and some man, would that man be Nargony or
the other  man?

I know the photo you mean, but I can't find it. I think the man was Derevenko, but I'm not certain.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Laura Mabee on March 11, 2007, 12:20:07 PM
Do you guys mean this photo?
(http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8473/550xk7.th.jpg) (http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8473/550xk7.jpg)
If you do, then Sarushka is right. It's Derevenko.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on March 11, 2007, 03:05:35 PM
That's definitely the one I was thinking of.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: grandduchess_42 on March 11, 2007, 03:15:41 PM
yup thats the one!
thanks laura for the picture!

ok thanks for clearing that up :)
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: rosieposie on March 11, 2007, 10:03:07 PM
I did actually just read it was a myth oops.   As I said before Alexei would of seen him as a brother figure and I think Nargony treated him like a younger brother.  I think Nargony was about 7 or 6 years older then Olga. I am not sure but that was what I was thinking when I read he was only 29 when he was executed.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Missy-T on March 30, 2007, 04:46:28 PM
Isn't Nagorny in this (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u82/tesseljade/Romanov%20pictures%20BW/oa.jpg) picture to?  :-\
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Laura Mabee on March 30, 2007, 06:36:17 PM
Isn't Nagorny in this (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u82/tesseljade/Romanov%20pictures%20BW/oa.jpg) picture to?  :-\
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure thats Derevenko.
From Left to Right:
Pierre Gilliard, Alexei, Olga, and Derevenko
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: dmitri on July 08, 2007, 12:14:38 PM
Nagorny was a devoted servant to the imperial family and Alexis. Derevenko betrayed them and even bullied Alexis after the revolution. I have always felt sorry for Nagorny. He deserved a happier end.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on July 08, 2007, 01:54:18 PM
Derevenko betrayed them and even bullied Alexis after the revolution. I have always felt sorry for Nagorny. He deserved a happier end.

According to Charlotte Zeepvat in Romanov Autumn, there is evidence to suggest that Derevenko in fact did NOT betray the imperial family. Anna Vyrubova is the only source of the story of Derevenko bullying Aleksei. IMO, if there's any evidence to the contrary, Derevenko deserves the benefit of the doubt after so many years of unquestioningly loyal service.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 21, 2007, 02:37:08 PM
Derevenko betrayed them and even bullied Alexis after the revolution. I have always felt sorry for Nagorny. He deserved a happier end.

According to Charlotte Zeepvat in Romanov Autumn, there is evidence to suggest that Derevenko in fact did NOT betray the imperial family. Anna Vyrubova is the only source of the story of Derevenko bullying Aleksei. IMO, if there's any evidence to the contrary, Derevenko deserves the benefit of the doubt after so many years of unquestioningly loyal service.

Not only does he deserve the benefit of the doubt, all evidence apart from Vyrubova indicates that the Sailor Derevenko remained loyal to the Imperial Family. He died in 1921 while fighting for the Whites. He was scheduled to go into exile with Alexei - when the PG decided he could not go. It is doubtful that the couple would have had him come along had he done what AV said he did.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Historybuff_262 on July 21, 2007, 04:03:37 PM
that's true. why would they want derevenko to come if he had bullied Alexei?

wouldn't we have heard in Alexei's diary or someone else's diary if it was true what Derevenko did?

oh, and why didn't the provisional government let Derevenko go with the imperial family?


p.s. does anybody have any information at all about Nagorny's family?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: BeautyQueen on October 12, 2007, 04:18:42 PM
We all know that a solider tried to steal Alexei's gold chain from him. But does anyone know Alexei's reaction to this incident?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on October 12, 2007, 05:07:29 PM
Actually, that story may be a myth. Here's a post I wrote about Nagorny and the gold chain on another thread:

According to one source, that story was a rumor perpetuated by Prince George Lvov. Lvov claimed that he and Nagorny were imprisoned in Ekaterinburg together, and that Nagorny himself told the story of protesting the theft of a gold cross belonging to Aleksei. However, Lvov is apparently not a credible witness. He informed President Wilson in a letter that he had been imprisoned in Ekaterinburg at the end of February 1918, then escaped after five weeks and fled across Siberia, arriving in Vladivostock in July. That makes it *impossible* for Lvov to have been in the Ekaterinburg City Prison on May 27 -- the *only* night Nagorny spent there. Nagorny and Ivan Sednev were then shot on May 31, eliminating any further possiblity of communicating with Lvov.

Lvov told a number of wildly false tales about the Romanovs' captivity, often contradicting himself in the process.



I also think it's significant that neither Nicholas or Alexandra's diaries mention the alleged gold chain incident. Instead, they both seem puzzled and troubled by the sudden removal of Nagorny and Sednev.


You may find more by doing a search for "Nagorny Lvov."
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: BeautyQueen on October 12, 2007, 08:28:47 PM
Thank you very much. I will look at those topics for more information.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Nicole123 on October 28, 2007, 10:09:40 AM
When Alexei was alone in the bedroom, a guard snuck in bedroom and tried to take the gold chain. Alexei probably screamed and was putting up a good fight. And I guess Nicholas II, Nagorny, and Dr. Botkin heard the incident happening and ran into the bedroom, and Nagorny punched the guard. And then the guard dropped the chain, and Nagorny gave it back to Alexei. And then the guard took Nagorny away, and later shot him.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on October 28, 2007, 05:18:58 PM
When Alexei was alone in the bedroom, a guard snuck in bedroom and tried to take the gold chain. Alexei probably screamed and was putting up a good fight. And I guess Nicholas II, Nagorny, and Dr. Botkin heard the incident happening and ran into the bedroom, and Nagorny punched the guard. And then the guard dropped the chain, and Nagorny gave it back to Alexei. And then the guard took Nagorny away, and later shot him.

That's how the story goes, but it is possibly only that -- a story made up by someone to gain attention because of the Romanovs' death.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: BeautyQueen on October 28, 2007, 06:05:47 PM
It happened. It's NOT fake.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on October 29, 2007, 07:53:11 AM
No need to shout. May I ask what source makes you so certain?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: BeautyQueen on October 29, 2007, 09:06:23 AM
Sorrt Sarushka. But I really do think this event did happen. It was in the movie and there were account written about it.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on October 29, 2007, 12:05:13 PM
Which movie -- Nicholas and Alexandra? Many parts of that movie that are not accurate -- Tatiana exposing herself to a guard, for example. That certainly never happened.


Here's why I'm skeptical about the story of Nagorny and the gold cross:

The only sources I've found for the gold cross incident are Gilliard and Gibbs. Neither Gilliard nor Gibbes were ever allowed into the Ipatiev house, so they could not have witnessed it themselves. They did not speak to Nagorny when they saw him being taken away, so Nagorny could not have told them. In fact, all the servants who lived in the Ipatiev house at the time of the incident were eventually murdered. According to House of Special Purpose (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=9), Gilliard and Gibbs apparently heard the story from a man named Prince George Lvov. Unfortunately, Prince Lvov isn't very reliable. He told all kinds of stories about the Romanovs -- that the entire imperial family had been murdered with bayonets and revolvers in the cell next to his, for example -- so I have a hard time believing him. There's reason to doubt whether Lvov was even in prison at the same time as Nagorny. For me, the most compelling evidence against Lvov's story is that neither Nicholas nor Alexandra mention the theft of a gold cross in their diaries. In fact, both of them wrote that they did not know why Nagorny and Sednev were removed from the house.


I'm not saying the story of the gold cross is impossible. I'm saying we have no credible witnesses to the event, and I personally have doubts based on the little evidence we do have. If you choose to believe Lvov's story, that's ok -- you're absolutely entitled to your opinion and your own view of the evidence. I only object to you presenting your opinion as if it's an undisputed fact.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: BeautyQueen on October 29, 2007, 12:20:26 PM
Now that you think about it, there is no accounts of how exactly this incident happened. I want to know more.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 01, 2007, 08:03:41 PM
Now that you think about it, there is no accounts of how exactly this incident happened. I want to know more.

This is nonsensical. If the only accounts of this alleged instance are heresay from a proven unreliable witness, what more is there to know? The evidence is very strongly in favor of it never happening at all. Or am I missing something here?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Annie on November 01, 2007, 08:31:43 PM
From Sophie B.'s "Left Behind", Chapter XI:

Monsieur Gilliard heard some details of the Imperial Family's detention at Ekaterinburg (as I also did later) from the Emperor's valet, Tchemodouroff. The man had been saved by having fallen ill and being taken from the lpatieff house to the prison infirmary......

While Tchemodouroff was still in the lpatieff house two of the servants, Nagorny and the footman Sednev, were taken away. They had not been able to watch with equanimity the Kommissar's rude treatment of the Tsarevich. Their faces betrayed their feelings and they paid for this with their lives.....

It was hard to keep any illusions after hearing Tchemodouroff's poignant recital, but though the faces I had seen at Ekaterinburg had inspired me with the direst forebodings, still I tried to cling to the hope that it was impossible that anyone could have been so brutal as to murder in cold blood a sick woman, young girls, and an ailing boy.



So, there was one person who had lived with the family until the end who lived to tell the stories.(Nicholas's valet, Tchemodouroff) Lvov was NOT the source.

Sophie doesn't describe what the rude treatment of the tsarevich was, but evidently Gilliard and Gibbes heard and told more detail.

Everyone should read "Left Behind". I have found quite a lot of valuable info in that first hand account, and I just keep finding more.

http://alexanderpalace.org/leftbehind
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Belochka on November 01, 2007, 08:48:18 PM
Nagorny had to have committed some terrible offense if he was taken out and shot.

Not necessarily, an innocent person easily lost their life just by one's past association, or something as simple as a glance which annoyed the observer, the wrong word spoken in fear or simply by the whim of their bolshevik executioner.

The inviolability of life was lost on the bolsheviks.

Margarita
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Terence on November 02, 2007, 01:30:31 AM
I've understood that Nagorny and the adult Sednev were probably removed right before the murder of the IF so as to eliminate the possibility of any interference/resistance from them.  That left only the targets (the IF), an old man and the female servants (and the child Sednev till he was removed at the last minute).  That makes sense to me, I doubt we'll ever know for sure as none of those responsible left anything that addresses the reasons.
Which leads me to wonder if Sophie B. was correct in stating Tchemodouroff was still there when they were removed.  I've tried searching for the answer when he was taken away, but so far no luck.  Perhaps someone here knows.

Terry

Edit: Found the answer, Chemodurov (darn those variant spellings!) was removed May 24, Nagorny and Sednev May 27.  Sophie's recollections were not accurate, which is understandable as she was not in the house and writing much later.  Also I'd forgotten Chemodurov was elderly, so he was really irrelevant as to whether they were removing the able-bodied males.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on November 02, 2007, 07:42:45 AM
Nagorny had to have committed some terrible offense if he was taken out and shot.

Not necessarily, an innocent person easily lost their life just by one's past association

I heartily agree with this much of Belochka's statement. Think of Hendrikova and Schneider. No dramatic defense of the imperial family prompted the execution of those two women. That was a clear case of guilt by association.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Annie on November 02, 2007, 10:38:06 AM
Quote
Edit: Found the answer, Chemodurov (darn those variant spellings!) was removed May 24, Nagorny and Sednev May 27.  Sophie's recollections were not accurate, which is understandable as she was not in the house and writing much later.  Also I'd forgotten Chemodurov was elderly, so he was really irrelevant as to whether they were removing the able-bodied males.

He was in the infirmary that long?? Isn't that the same date they gave for the other guy?

Sophie's 'recollections' came from having spoken to the removed person(removed due to illness, not any perceived threat) when they met up again  after the family was gone. He first told his stories to Gilliard, who along with Gibbes told the chain story, and later to Sophie who did not say exactly what happened other than rude treatment. Also, even if the old man didn't physically witness what happened in the house, word does get around town and people do talk. I don't know why everyone is so darn desperate to discount this story! Sophie talked to a person who was there. Why is that not better than other theories? We have 3 people who knew the family and spoke to the man who had lived in the Ipatiev house vs. the theories of people on a message board. Talk about years later!

 Whose idea was it they took them out so they wouldn't resist? Isn't that just another theory? No one could have resisted from the basement anyway.

On the subject of Sophie 'getting things wrong' I also noticed she gave an account of having met up with Volkov again, and her account of his escape is exactly as told in his memoirs. It's funny how people will try to discount someone when it suits them yet use them for a source when that suits them the other way. (I also noticed she made NO references to anything strange happening on the Rus)


I also want to add that I'm not doubting the Bolsheviks would kill someone for no reason, of course that happened a lot. There are also many sad accounts of such incidents by Volkov and Sophie in their memoirs. But as far as the story of Nagorny and Alexei goes, there have been so many comments coming from those who were in the area at the time that something did happen involving Nargorny being upset at Alexei's treatment that there must be something to it. Where there's smoke there's fire, and this isn't just one puff but many.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Terence on November 02, 2007, 08:19:40 PM
Quote
He was in the infirmary that long?? Isn't that the same date they gave for the other guy?

I wondered about that too.  Found this today (from The Fate of the Romanovs) "During their Siberian exile Chemodurov became increasingly senile, and was finally removed from the Ipatiev House to a local hospital just three weeks after the Romanovs arrived in Ekaterinburg."  Who do you mean by the other guy?  The date I found of May 24 was from The Fall of the Romanovs, p. 331.

Quote
Sophie's 'recollections' came from having spoken to the removed person(removed due to illness, not any perceived threat) when they met up again  after the family was gone. He first told his stories to Gilliard, who along with Gibbes told the chain story, and later to Sophie who did not say exactly what happened other than rude treatment. Also, even if the old man didn't physically witness what happened in the house, word does get around town and people do talk. I don't know why everyone is so darn desperate to discount this story! Sophie talked to a person who was there. Why is that not better than other theories? We have 3 people who knew the family and spoke to the man who had lived in the Ipatiev house vs. the theories of people on a message board. Talk about years later!

I'm not desparate to discount the story, I could really care less actually, but it just does not seem credible to me.  Sophie spoke to one person who had been in the house, Chermodurov and he spoke of "rude behavior" nothing about a gold chain.  Gilliard and Gibbes weren't in the house and never said Chermodurov told them that particular story.  Prince Lvov told the story and may be the source which really makes it suspect IMO.

Who were in the house were Nicholas and Alexandra and we do know they never mentioned such a story.  In fact Alexandra stated she had no idea why Nagorny was removed.  That for me is very telling, I think she would have known of such an incident.  It's not just that she didn't detail the incident, she makes clear there was no overt reason for the removal to her knowledge.

That leaves 3 people in the house, Nicholas, Alexandra and Chermodurov who do not mention the story.  Lvov, not in the house, falsely claims Nagorny told him the story.  Gilliard and Gibbes, not in the house, never say where they heard the story.  Not very convincing to me.

Quote
Whose idea was it they took them out so they wouldn't resist? Isn't that just another theory? No one could have resisted from the basement anyway.

No idea where I read that, it just seemed to make sense so it stuck w/ me.  It is just a theory.  I don't think when Nagorny and Sednev were removed that they had the slayings all planned out to take place in detail.  Could have been just the fact they were whittling down the crowd w/ the IF as they had done all along.  The fact that they took the two able-bodied men and neither of the female servants just makes the theory plausible.  More plausible than the idea that the "gold chain incident" happened and neither Alexei or Dr. Botkin bothered to tell Nicholas or Alexandra!

Quote
On the subject of Sophie 'getting things wrong' I also noticed she gave an account of having met up with Volkov again, and her account of his escape is exactly as told in his memoirs. It's funny how people will try to discount someone when it suits them yet use them for a source when that suits them the other way. (I also noticed she made NO references to anything strange happening on the Rus)

I was fascinated reading Sophie's memoirs, for anyone interested in the Romanovs I think they are must reading, along w/ the other servant's stories.  She seems to be pretty accurate w/ a good memory.  I've never tried to discount her, just found a reference that she was mistaken about the valet still being there when Nagorny was removed.

Quote
I also want to add that I'm not doubting the Bolsheviks would kill someone for no reason, of course that happened a lot. There are also many sad accounts of such incidents by Volkov and Sophie in their memoirs. But as far as the story of Nagorny and Alexei goes, there have been so many comments coming from those who were in the area at the time that something did happen involving Nargorny being upset at Alexei's treatment that there must be something to it. Where there's smoke there's fire, and this isn't just one puff but many.

It's pretty well established Nagorny was the most defensive of the IF and esp. Alexei.  That in itself could be enough reason for his removal and doesn't mean the gold chain story actually happened as Lvov told it.  There may be a kernel of truth in the story somehow, but I doubt anyone will ever know unless new evidence turns up.

Apologies for babbling on so long.  I do love this site.  Thanks to all of you who contribute to the serious discussion of history here.  And kudos to you Annie on your AA site, well done.

Terry
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on November 02, 2007, 08:32:07 PM
He was in the infirmary that long?? Isn't that the same date they gave for the other guy?

You lost me there -- what infirmary? What "other guy"?

The elderly Chemodurov was released from his duty by Nicholas II himself on May 24th; he was not removed forcibly by the Bolsheviks.


Quote
Sophie's 'recollections' came from having spoken to the removed person(removed due to illness, not any perceived threat) when they met up again  after the family was gone. He first told his stories to Gilliard, who along with Gibbes told the chain story, and later to Sophie who did not say exactly what happened other than rude treatment. Also, even if the old man didn't physically witness what happened in the house, word does get around town and people do talk. I don't know why everyone is so darn desperate to discount this story!

Yes, people talk, but remember that Nagorny did not speak to Gilliard or Gibbs upon his removal, and spent only one night in the Yekaterinburg prison before being shot. There wasn't a whole lot of opportunity for his story to get out.


Quote
Sophie talked to a person who was there. Why is that not better than other theories? We have 3 people who knew the family and spoke to the man who had lived in the Ipatiev house vs. the theories of people on a message board.

Yes, Sophie Buxhoeveden talked to "a person who was there" but you're ignoring the fact that Chemodurov was not there at the time Nagorny was removed from the Ipatiev house, and in fact had not been there for the last 2-3 days. "Knowing the family" does not make Buxhoeveden, Gilliard, or Gibbes a reliable source for events that happened in their absence.


Quote
I don't know why everyone is so darn desperate to discount this story

I think you exaggerate. I'm not at all desperate to discount this story. I'm saying there's reason to be cautious about the story's source.


Quote
Whose idea was it they took them out so they wouldn't resist? Isn't that just another theory?

Yes, it's a theory that first appeared in FOTR.

Theorizing is no crime. With the total absence of eyewitnesses, what else can we do but theorize?


Quote
But as far as the story of Nagorny and Alexei goes, there have been so many comments coming from those who were in the area at the time that something did happen involving Nargorny being upset at Alexei's treatment that there must be something to it. Where there's smoke there's fire, and this isn't just one puff but many.

What other sources besides Prince George Lvov do you have? To my knowledge, he's the sole source of the gold chain rumor (as well as a variant involving Nagorny insisting Aleksei be allowed to keep two pairs of boots) which was then perpetuated by Gilliard and Gibbs. I see no smoke, nor fire -- just one man shooting off his mouth.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Forum Admin on November 02, 2007, 08:38:30 PM
There is franky NO credible first hand evidence to support  this story. We must discount it entirely unless real evidence comes up.  Remember, much was fabricated to incite feelings against the bolshevik regime during the civil war by the emigre community.  I have no doubt that this tale was such a story, designed to inflame anti-bolshevik feelings among the emigres.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Annie on November 02, 2007, 09:06:07 PM

The elderly Chemodurov was released from his duty by Nicholas II himself on May 24th; he was not removed forcibly by the Bolsheviks.

He reported to the refugees he had been taken to the infirmary due to his ill health.

Quote
Yes, Sophie Buxhoeveden talked to "a person who was there" but you're ignoring the fact that Chemodurov was not there at the time Nagorny was removed from the Ipatiev house, and in fact had not been there for the last 2-3 days. "Knowing the family" does not make Buxhoeveden, Gilliard, or Gibbes a reliable source for events that happened in their absence.

What is the source of the date he was taken out of the house?


Quote
Yes, it's a theory that first appeared in FOTR.

Theorizing is no crime. With the total absence of eyewitnesses, what else can we do but theorize?

It's not wrong for us to theorize, however, I don't think it's right for anyone to pass off theories as truth in 'nonfiction' books.

Quote
What other sources besides Prince George Lvov do you have? To my knowledge, he's the sole source of the gold chain rumor (as well as a variant involving Nagorny insisting Aleksei be allowed to keep two pairs of boots) which was then perpetuated by Gilliard and Gibbs. I see no smoke, nor fire -- just one man shooting off his mouth.

It was Giliard and Gibbes as told to them by the valet who had been in the house. I know nothing of Lvov, Sophie mentions him in her memoirs but makes no mention of him being connected to the chain story. I guess in the end it's all in who you choose to believe. You can read Chapter XI of "Left Behind", and see if you believe her or not. If you're going to put doubt on these peoples' stories, then how can we be sure of anything else they've said, or anything that happened at all?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on November 03, 2007, 01:27:38 AM
What you are criticizing here, Annie is precisely the job of a historian. It is our job to theorize and to make the facts as understandable as possible to our readers. How on earth are we to do this without some interpretation? It is rather easy to discern a theory from a fact while reading history.

For example, it was Robert Massie's theory that Alexei's illness caused Nicholas and Alexandra to lose focus on their job of governing. Now, this is certainly not a fact, nor could anyone reading "Nicholas and Alexandra" possibly think this. And, by the way, some of us disagree with Massie's theories. It's not a matter of him being wrong (or right).

If everyone just reported the facts with no analysis, there would be some extremely dry history books. So, in summary, theories are not "passed off" as fact - it's rather simple to figure out an interpretation versus a fact.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on November 03, 2007, 07:32:39 AM
What is the source of the date he was taken out of the house?

Alexandra's diary.


Quote
It's not wrong for us to theorize, however, I don't think it's right for anyone to pass off theories as truth in 'nonfiction' books.

Then you should have no quarrel with this theory, which is in no way presented as fact.

From page 157 of FOTR: "The removal of Nagorny and Sednev has always remained something of a mystery."

Page 159: "In all likelihood, Nagorny and Sednev were removed from the Ipatiev House precisely because they represented a threat to the power of the Special Detatchment."


Quote
It was Giliard and Gibbes as told to them by the valet who had been in the house. I know nothing of Lvov, Sophie mentions him in her memoirs but makes no mention of him being connected to the chain story. I guess in the end it's all in who you choose to believe. You can read Chapter XI of "Left Behind", and see if you believe her or not.

I don't disbelieve Buxhoeveden -- I think she had bad information and was unaware of the story's source. She heard it from Gilliard and Gibbs, both of whom she must have been well acquainted with and thus probably thought there was no need to investigate. Besides, Buxhoeveden wasn't a historian for goodness sake -- she was writing a memoir of her own experience. It wasn't her job to pin down the original source of everything she heard and chose to believe.


Quote
If you're going to put doubt on these peoples' stories, then how can we be sure of anything else they've said, or anything that happened at all?

There are only so many ways to say this, but the only person I'm doubting in this chain is Lvov, a man known to have told blatantly and verifiably false tales about the Romanovs in Yekaterinburg. The simple fact of the matter is that Gilliard and Gibbs fell for Lvov's story and then spread it. Can you blame them? It's an appealing and dramatic story, and it casts their murdered colleague (for lack of a better term) in a heroic light. In turn, Buxhoeveden didn't knowingly lie, she repeated a story she herself believed. That doesn't condemn Buxhoeveden, Gilliard, or Gibbs as unreliable sources overall -- it only makes them human.


You've made it sound like anyone reading these memoirs critically and cross-checking sources is committing some dastardly deed upon the authors' honor. That's ridiculous. It's just plain foolish to accept everything in print at face value. Despite being first-hand witnesses to much of the Romanov saga, these people are by no means infallible. Think of Lili Dehn mixing up the grand duchesses -- she wrote that she and Maria watched from the windows as the empress spoke to the AP guards on the eve of the revolution, when in fact Maria was outside with the empress. Being closely connected with the Romanovs does not make a memoirist immune to bias, glitches of memory, or bad judgement. A savvy reader will take all of that into account, and it's no crime.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Forum Admin on November 03, 2007, 09:37:27 AM
Last Act of a Tragedy has the Ipatiev House On-duty Guard's Diary, the daily record of events.

May 27 Alexandra reports Nagorny and Sednev were "taken away"

May 28, apparently along with ten other people Nagorny and Sednev turned over: Guard's report diary: "Turned over 12 persons found in the House of Special Purpose". - This means that Nagorny was not IN prison the 27, but rather under house arrest until the 28.

June 1: the cook Kharitonov reports something on top of the wardrobe in the room that Nagorny and Sednev used to share.  The guard on duty "When I got there it turned out that eight armed bombs were on top of the wardrobe Kharitonov had mentioned ... The bombs were disarmed in the guard room. ...  I informed Comrade Avdeyev, commandant of the House about it and he in turn informed Comrade Belobobrovdov, chairman of the regional soviet."  Now we know why they were shot.


Almost certainly Lvov never spoke to Nagorny "in prison" according to the time lines. The guard diary reports the most mundane details, such as Nicholas asking the windows be opened for air, or Botkin needing something out of a suitcase in storage...It is very important to me that no such mention of an incident involving a soldier and a gold cross is reported.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Annie on November 03, 2007, 10:05:35 AM
Quote
What you are criticizing here, Annie is precisely the job of a historian. It is our job to theorize and to make the facts as understandable as possible to our readers. How on earth are we to do this without some interpretation? It is rather easy to discern a theory from a fact while reading history.

Yes, it is, and that is why we are here, posting and quoting things from books and memoirs and lists, trying to draw conclusions based on what we have years later. As I said, that is fine for us here on the message board, but none of it should be stated as fact in a nonfiction book if it's only speculation presented as fact (this goes for all books) It's fine for authors to give you info and offer possible theories as long as they are clearly stated to be that and not presented as some new and different info that shatters everything we've known in the past when really it's just another idea.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Janet Ashton on November 07, 2007, 02:35:30 PM
There is franky NO credible first hand evidence to support  this story. We must discount it entirely unless real evidence comes up.  Remember, much was fabricated to incite feelings against the bolshevik regime during the civil war by the emigre community.  I have no doubt that this tale was such a story, designed to inflame anti-bolshevik feelings among the emigres.


Indeed. I have always observed how similar it is to the story (legend, AFAIK) of the murder of the Tsarevich Dmitri Ivanoich, who attempts to defend his baptismal cross - the symbol of the Christian monarchy - as his killers pull it from his neck. Thus Alexei, called "the second Dmitri" sometimes in hagiographical literature, has his own cross - and his defender - symbolically taken from him a little while before his death by the men who "destroy" Holy Russia. I trust I won't offend anyone with this post; it's a valid point I think.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: bkohatl on May 06, 2008, 06:47:19 PM
Looking back at the October Revolution, I've always been convinced that the sweep of history caught up with and overwhelmed almost everyone, far more than just the extended Romanov Family. You get a real sense of what it must have been like in Dr. Zhivago. Great Movie.
A tragedy on so many levels. But also with a candle's light worth of humanity.
Deverenko, Alexei's "au pere", in the end could be excused for abandoning the Romanovs. Anyone who was there must have sensed that things were going to end badly for them. He was just trying to save himself. Not a hero, just human.
I've read the story about his mistreatment of Alexei. If he did it, it is horrible. I think he could have slipped away un-noticed. I don't think it was necessary to betray Alexei that way. But, again, we may never know exactly what happened, so to this point it remains unproven.
Which brings me to Nagorny. I always remember that line from "A Man For All Seasons" in which The Duke of Norfolk appeals to Thomas More to save himself:
Norfolk to Thomas More when the two are alone: And who are you? God****t, man, it's disproportionate! We're suppose to be the arrogant ones, the proud splenetic ones - and we've given in! Why must you stand out?
You'll break my heart.
A Man For All Seasons/Robert Bolt

To me, one of the few real heroes in the Romanov story is Nagorny. He could have abandoned Alexei and the Romanovs at any time. And he had more than enough excuses, but he chose not to exercise any of them.
I don't think anyone would have blamed him if he had. But he didn't.
A real hero. He deserves a monument. The Family should take care to honor his memory, because it brings honor to the family. Only honorable people can inspire loyalty like that.

Just one man's opinion.
I wondered if anyone has ever thought of honoring him for his loyalty and humanity. After the March Revolution, in which, Kerensky proved himself too smart by half and a total incompetent, with the accession of Lenin, Sverdlov and Trotsky.  no one could doubt the fate of the Royal Family. Look at Olga and Alexei's photo aboard the Rus or read Olga's prayer. They knew too.
Which brings me back to Nagorny. We know, per Gibbes and Gilliard, that he stayed with the family when most retainers had deserted them. It is very easy to believe that he defended Alexei.
I was wondering if there was a monument, a book or any remembrance of his courage and character. He was truly "a man for all seasons" also.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: lulururu on May 07, 2008, 06:56:31 AM
The French book "Le Tsarévitch enfant martyr" written by Eugénie de Grèce tells the story of Alexei and is dedicated to Nagorny ("Je dédie ce livre à l'héroïque marin-paysan, Clementi Grigorivitch Nagorny qui, jusqu'au sacrifice de sa vie, défendit le tsarévitch") but it doesn't really tell his story.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: writer_in_the_making on June 05, 2008, 05:23:24 PM
I agree in full. Nagorny died for alexei. He would still be important even if he hadn't died but he stuck with them till the end. He should be honored just as much as those killed in the mass execution.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: matushka on July 10, 2008, 03:33:45 PM
:)

Here is a picture that was identified as Nagorny:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Koloagirl/811.jpg)

Please correct me if I am wrong (I believe he is the gentleman on the left) -- thanks!

Janet R.

Indeed under this man on the left there are initials KN for Klementy Nagorny; on the top of Derevenko a "D" and under Alexis the letter "N" for "naslednik".
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: StevenL on July 11, 2008, 09:44:10 PM
That source's theory is that Nagorny and Sednev were removed from the Ipatiev house simply because they were young able-bodied men

Indeed, considering the timing, that is extremely likely.
Knowing what would eventually happen to the prisoners, a coward like Yurovsky would have wanted them out of the way.
Alexandra was completely mystified as to why the young men were taken away, so Lvov's story is certainly a load of crap.

Steven
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on July 11, 2008, 09:55:24 PM
Knowing what would eventually happen to the prisoners, a coward like Yurovsky would have wanted them out of the way.

Nagorny & Sednev  were removed on 14/27 May, about 6 weeks before Yurovsky's arrival in early July. Yurovsky was only responsible for removing young Leonka Sednev, the kitchen boy.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: StevenL on July 12, 2008, 06:08:12 AM
Knowing what would eventually happen to the prisoners, a coward like Yurovsky would have wanted them out of the way.

Nagorny & Sednev  were removed on 14/27 May, about 6 weeks before Yurovsky's arrival in early July. Yurovsky was only responsible for removing young Leonka Sednev, the kitchen boy.

Avdeev, Yurovsky -- sorry I mixed up my cowards!
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: nena on July 12, 2008, 07:04:16 AM
Nagorny was killed along with Sednev(Leonid's uncle).
But sorry for OT, it was said Leonid was sent away on July 15th--Yurovsky's statement,
acrroding to Alexandra's diary, it happened on fatal day july 16th. Who is correct?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on July 12, 2008, 09:18:15 AM
IMO, Alexandra is most likely correct. She was writing down the events as they happened. Yurovsky was writing years after the event, so his memory may have failed occasionally on the details.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: nena on July 12, 2008, 12:42:39 PM
Thank you! Agreed! (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Smileys/smiley.gif)
Anyone know when pic. of Nagorny, Aleksei and Derevenko was taken(posted by koloagirl)? IMO, 1914?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Geniebeanie on January 05, 2009, 08:50:51 PM
He deserves to be honored.  So do the others who died with the family.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Geniebeanie on January 27, 2009, 09:31:21 AM
Since Nagormy was a sailor on the Sandart, was he one of Alexie's honorary Godfathers?   I think I remember reading that all of the saliors on the standart was given that honor.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on January 28, 2009, 05:12:48 PM
Since Nagormy was a sailor on the Sandart, was he one of Alexie's honorary Godfathers?   I think I remember reading that all of the saliors on the standart was given that honor.
That's quite interesting. If the Standart crew were named as Alexei's honorary godfathers , as you I think rightly remember, then it would depend on when this happened. If the Standart sailors became Godfathers to the Heir it probably would have been in the form of an announcement by Nicholas at the time of Alexei's birth , or more likely, at the time of his baptism, which I believe was sometime within less than a month of the birth.
 In any case there's  no chance Nagorny was part of the Imperial yacht's crew then. He would have been fifteen years  old at the time.
On the other hand he was a Standart sailor at some point and was highly enough regarded to have been entrusted with Alexei's care as his nanny/companion. So it could well be that Nagorny was made Alexei's godfather later.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on January 28, 2009, 06:23:10 PM
I recall a slightly different scenario: all the soldiers serving in the Russo-Japanese war were named honorary godfathers. But so far I haven't been able to confirm either version in a printed source.

[Edited to add: Found it! Marie Pavlovna wrote: "In honor of the Army, then fighting on the distant plains of Manchuria, all the combatants were inscribed as godfathers to the young prince."]
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: nena on January 29, 2009, 08:26:47 AM
Btw, there is photo of Nicholas II photo with icon , soliders are kneeling in fron of him, Manchuria, 1905.

Thank you for info, Sarushka and Rodney_G. -- never knew that!
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: AlexandersDaughter on January 29, 2009, 02:31:35 PM
He was only 29? I hadn't realised that. So sad that another young life was so pointlessly wasted.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on January 29, 2009, 04:34:04 PM
   Sarushka's right. So nice to have a source named. Yes , it is sad about Nagorny's murder. He was a strong, decent and loyal man, and though it may be by only a relative few, he is remembered as such today.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Olga Maria on February 22, 2009, 08:46:12 PM
Nagorny had altercations with (I'm not sure who that is) Avdeyev,
Once, Alyosha sent radishes with a message carved in it (message for Kolya) to Nagorny.
Nagorny was caught by Avdeyev and scolded.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on February 22, 2009, 11:05:55 PM
Nagorny had altercations with (I'm not sure who that is) Avdeyev,

Rodionov, actually. ;-)

Avdeyev was commandant in Ekaterinburg.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Olga Maria on February 24, 2009, 10:02:00 AM
Um, um..Hehehe.
Thanks for it, Sarah!  0:-)
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Ausmanov on March 01, 2009, 03:16:59 PM
Nagorny was a great and fiercely loyal person. I think he deserves more than a book not only for his dedication to the Imperial family but also because of his honourable character and moral strength as a human being.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on March 01, 2009, 03:37:01 PM
I agree Nagorny and all those who chose to retain with the family, and ended up dead in the end, should be honored. Not only the Imperial Family and their servant's but everyone who chose to stay near the Romanov-family when all turned badly, and here I not only am referring to the Imperial Famy's friends and sevrants but also on those who stayed true to the Imperial Family's relatives (and died too, like Micha's secretary the nun who died with Ella, the Grand Duke's and the Prince's) - they all deserve to be honored for their loyalty, just as the Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Olga Maria on March 02, 2009, 03:13:44 AM
Wow,he's worth remembering! He's such a heroic servant and friend!
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Ally Kumari on March 02, 2009, 03:29:02 AM
His loyalty and devotion were truly remarkable.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Lemur on March 08, 2009, 10:41:43 AM
He was also a loyal friend. Gilliard wrote this about seeing Nagorny on the way to his execution. He could have given away the presence of his friends and gotten them captured, even by just waving at them, but he made sure not to acknowledge them and spare them from the Bolsheviks, even though he saw them.

One day when I was passing Ipatiev's house, accompanied by Dr. Derevenko and Mr. Gibbes, we saw two carriages drawn up and surrounded by a large number of Red Guards, What was our horror at recognizing in the first Sedniev (the valet-de-chambre of the Grand-Duchesses) sitting between two guards. Nagorny was going to the second carriage. He was just setting foot on the step with his hand on the side of the carriage when, raising his head, he saw us all there standing motionless a few yards from him. For a few seconds he looked fixedly at us, then, without a single gesture that might have betrayed us, he took his seat. The carriages were driven off, and we saw them turn in the direction of the prison.

These two good fellows were shot shortly afterwards; their sole crime had been their inability to hide their indignation on seeing the Bolshevik commissaries seize the little gold chain from which the holy images hung over the sick bed of Aleksey Nicolaievich.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: nena on March 08, 2009, 11:31:42 AM
Nagorny?


At Finland, ca. 1912:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/th_aleksejsanagornimmornar.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/?action=view&current=aleksejsanagornimmornar.jpg)

At AP, ca. 1914/5.:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/th_nagornideverenkoaleksej.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/?action=view&current=nagornideverenkoaleksej.jpg)

Near Moglev, summer of 1916:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/th_vasjanagornialeksejmogi.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/?action=view&current=vasjanagornialeksejmogi.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/th_nagornipetrovaleksejvas.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/Sluge%20i%20prijatelji/?action=view&current=nagornipetrovaleksejvas.jpg)

He deserves to be honored.  So do the others who died with the family.
I agree completely.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Ausmanov on March 08, 2009, 04:40:55 PM
Wow. i had never seen any of those pictures. Their great.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: RealAnastasia on March 09, 2009, 09:45:58 PM
Many thanks for posting these. I knew just one.

I think that Nagorny must be praized for what he did for Alexei, as well as Trupp, Demidova, Kharitonov and Doctor Botkin, who died along with the Imperial Family.Maybe, people will laugh at me, but I think that these retainers must be canonized, as well as the Tsar and his family.They died only for being faithful to them.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: bkohatl on May 08, 2009, 06:54:41 AM
I hope that this idea won't die. It is easy to be loyal when you have shared in the rewards or inherited your position. Nagorny was an ordinary Russian, he like Deverenko could read the handwriting on the wall. It would have been so easy for Nagorny to follow his comrades example, because after all he was from the prolateriat. I always remember Thomas More's conversation with the Duke of Norfolk from a "Man for All Seasons", when Thomas stood up for principle when none of the nobility had the courage to. I think why I see Nagorny differently, is that it would have been so easy for him to walk away and go back to his family. I don't think the Czar or Czarina, much less the children would have blamed him. He had a whole other life and whole other family. He chose honor and I think love. I think his wife and children had every reason to be proud of him, another "Man for all Seasons."
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: RealAnastasia on May 08, 2009, 11:05:27 PM
I hope that this idea won't die. It is easy to be loyal when you have shared in the rewards or inherited your position. Nagorny was an ordinary Russian, he like Deverenko could read the handwriting on the wall. It would have been so easy for Nagorny to follow his comrades example, because after all he was from the prolateriat. I always remember Thomas More's conversation with the Duke of Norfolk from a "Man for All Seasons", when Thomas stood up for principle when none of the nobility had the courage to. I think why I see Nagorny differently, is that it would have been so easy for him to walk away and go back to his family. I don't think the Czar or Czarina, much less the children would have blamed him. He had a whole other life and whole other family. He chose honor and I think love. I think his wife and children had every reason to be proud of him, another "Man for all Seasons."

I strongly second that. Nagorny must have his share of glory, since he had his share of honor with the Imperial Family.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: CorisCapnSkip on May 17, 2009, 03:35:59 AM
I think that Nagorny must be praized for what he did for Alexei, as well as Trupp, Demidova, Kharitonov and Doctor Botkin, who died along with the Imperial Family.Maybe, people will laugh at me, but I think that these retainers must be canonized, as well as the Tsar and his family.They died only for being faithful to them.

RealAnastasia.

What happened to the bodies?  Were all of them found?  Were those that were found turned over to any remaining relatives, or buried together?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Tina Laroche on May 17, 2009, 03:59:18 AM
I think that Nagorny must be praized for what he did for Alexei, as well as Trupp, Demidova, Kharitonov and Doctor Botkin, who died along with the Imperial Family.Maybe, people will laugh at me, but I think that these retainers must be canonized, as well as the Tsar and his family.They died only for being faithful to them.

RealAnastasia.

What happened to the bodies?  Were all of them found? Were those that were found turned over to any remaining relatives, or buried together?

The bodies of NAOTMAA, and the bodies of the four servants have been found, if that's what you meant. :-\ I don't know what happened with the servants' bodies though. :-|
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: nena on May 17, 2009, 04:44:50 AM
I think I have read bodies were found by the Whites. (of Nagorny and Sednev).

I may be highly wrong, I sense.  :-[
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Olga Maria on June 27, 2009, 06:03:17 AM
Is this Nagorny?I think this is he (http://highway55.library.yale.edu/ROMANOVIMG/size4/D0049/1000691.jpg)
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on June 27, 2009, 07:41:57 AM
Nope. That's Derevenko.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Father Gregory on August 13, 2009, 04:20:26 PM
I am confused.  Nagorny is frequently photographed with Alexei and a heavy man with a mustache.  I thought this was his other sailor-nanny Derevenko.  Is he same person as Dr. Vladimir Derevenko, Alexei's surgeon?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 13, 2009, 04:58:27 PM
The two "Deverenko" individuals prominent in the Heir's life are two different people.   AP
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on August 13, 2009, 05:24:39 PM
Reply to "nena" post # 16:    I would be interested in your source.  To my knowledge, I have never seen information about the identification and recovery (by the Whites) of the bodies of K. Nagorny and Sednev past their demise.  After execution, Nagorny probably ended up in an unmarked grave and undoubtedly I. Sednev as well.  Regards,  AP
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: nena on August 15, 2009, 07:10:05 PM
Vladimir Derevenko was indeed Alexei's surgeon, father of Kolya Derevenko, Heir's closest friend. Kolya died in 2003 (some sources say earlier, in the end of 90s). He accompanied IF in their Tobolsk imprisonment, he left in August of 1917 with family to Tobolsk.

But, another one, Derevevnko (I forgot his name and patronymic, will have to take a look around) was Alexei's nanny (’matros’, ’diadka’) who cared about him. I think Penny Wilson gave a lot of information about him here, but not so much his known about his fate.

AP, what a pity. My mistake. Well, he was killed in the end of June of 1918, somewhere out of Ekaterinburg (Climent Grigorievich Nagorny). I don't know why I told that their bodies were found. Probably during Sokolov’s investigation, they might have tried to find out something. Again, I  am not sure.  It seems to remain one of numerous mysteries to us.

After execution, Nagorny probably ended up in an unmarked grave and undoubtedly I. Sednev as well.  Regards,  AP

That was my point exactly, I was going to say the same. Sorry for making any confusion, I will look for more details.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: bkohatl on July 30, 2010, 11:55:27 AM
I suggested sometime ago that an effort be undertaken to remember Klementy Nagorny. From all the evidence that I've seen he was a loyal and devoted Russian soldier, who served his Tsar honorably. He was also a loyal friend to the Royal Family while under arrest at Tsarskoe Selo, Tbolsk and Yekaterinberg.
I have always understood the actions of Deverenko, though the ultimate betrayal if Anna Vyrubova is to be believed, they are practical and allowed him to survive.

I remember what Harry Truman said in 1947 when he integrated the American Military. A delegation of Generals, Admirals and retired officers came to him to argue against it. After they left, Harry Truman said that while he listened to them, respectfully,  he absolutely did not agree with them.
His job as President was to do what was right, and, he did.
What Deverenko did what was practical; what Nagorny did what was right and he deserves to be remembered for that. And aren't there enough monuments to men and women of marginal or questionable virtue, that we can mark the life and death of a man who served his country with honor, was loyal to those who gave him friendship and respect, even when it would be much easier not to. If I were a descendant of one of his children, I would be proud to lay claim to his legacy.
And such a man deserves to be remembered. I do.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 05, 2010, 11:20:28 AM
.
I would love to see a rememberance of Klementy Nagorny, who sacrificed his life for the Imperial Family.

Unfortunately, there is still alot of bad scholarship out there which is largely responsible for your bad opinion of the Sailor Derevenko. It is most likely that Vurubova's story about him was untrue, and he was in fact denied permisssion to accompany the family to Tobolsk, and died fighting the Bolsheviks in 1919.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: RealAnastasia on September 05, 2010, 11:52:02 PM
Me too. I wish Nagorny could be remembered in some way. He was a good, loyal man. He died for his Emperor and deserves a monument. Truly.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Kalafrana on September 06, 2010, 05:13:06 AM
I agree. I have said elsewhere that there should be a monument to those who went to Ekaterinberg and were killed separately from the Imperial Family. I don't think any of them has a known grave.

Ann
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Ausmanov on October 17, 2010, 04:44:18 PM
you could always do something small scale. Even if its just a plaque or engravement on your property or local area, or perhaps a street name.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on December 11, 2010, 02:47:15 PM
By all standards Nagorny was a courageous and loyal young man, both to the Imperial Family and to his country. He knew what he risked by his loyalty and was willing to take that risk anyway. He certainly showed more courage than many more famous, high ranking figures better positioned to help the family.
Realistically, a monument is unlikely now. The occasion of the Romanov reburial at the Peter and Paul Cathedral in July, 1998 might have been a spur to a Nagorny memorial but that opportunity was missed. Still,the present day Romanov family organization could do a lot worse than create a small tribute to a man  so dedicated to their ancestors.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: cebi26 on June 24, 2012, 03:31:00 PM
Was his body ever recovered?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on June 25, 2012, 02:24:19 PM
I don't think so. I'm not sure if anyone necessarily tried to recover Nagorny's body. He was not exactly 'formally' executed, but was taken aside and simply murdered by the Bolsheviks, as per their usual practice. Later, when White forces recaptured Ekaterinburg in late July, 1918, their focus was on finding what happened to the Imperial Family. It's a shame more couldn't be done, or wasn't done, to account for Nagorny's death, and properly honor him, even in post-Soviet Russia, when Romanov and imperial Russian nostalgia was in the ascendant.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: blessOTMA on June 26, 2012, 07:33:58 PM
I'll never forget Gillard's description of when Nagorny was taken away from the family.  Gillard and other retainers happened to be on the street and witnessed  Nagorny being put into a carriage. Nagorny saw them and looked his good bye to  this group, but he never indicated her knew them ...and so saved  them from the unwanted attention of the Bolsheviks. This was a great man.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: cebi26 on June 27, 2012, 05:16:34 PM
How sad =/
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on June 27, 2012, 05:42:52 PM
This was a great man.

You are correct and it's no understaement.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: LisaDavidson on June 28, 2012, 09:14:40 PM
Nagorny's body - and that of Sednev the footman - were recovered by the occupying White Army.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on June 29, 2012, 12:56:48 PM
Nagorny's body - and that of Sednev the footman - were recovered by the occupying White Army.

Lisa, could you elaborate on this? Like where this is stated (the source?). Was there a proper burial, etc? Any more details? Thanks.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: TennPat on December 08, 2012, 12:36:58 AM
I also read that the bodies of Nagorny and Sednev were found by tbe Whites and buried in a church cemetary.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on December 08, 2012, 07:02:50 AM
I also read that the bodies of Nagorny and Sednev were found by tbe Whites and buried in a church cemetary.

    Source/documentation, please?        Regards,   AP.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: TennPat on December 08, 2012, 04:16:02 PM
Correct information about Leonid Sednev and his uncle sailor Ivan Sednev.

 Sednev Leonid Ivanovich, (near 1909 - 1942). Kitchen boy, a nephew of Ivan Dmitrievich Sednev. Followed with the Imperial family to Tobolsk and Yekaterinburg. Taken away before their execution in the house of Ipatiev. Was sent to Yaroslavl Province. Killed by the NKVD during the war.

*Info taken from Popov's archive.

 Sednev Ivan Dimitrievich, (1886 - 1918). A peasant from Yaroslavl Province. Sailor from the imperial yacht Standart. Footman of the grand duchesses. Followed with the Imperial family to Tobolsk, then arrived with them in Yekaterinburg, where in 27 of May 1918, was arrested and sent to the prison along with K. Nagorny. They both were shot at the end of the May, 1918 or in the beginning of the June, 1918. After the Siberian White Army took the Yekaterinburg their bodies were buried in the cemetery of Ivanovo, Yaroslavl Province
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on December 08, 2012, 05:56:09 PM
Correct information about Leonid Sednev and his uncle sailor Ivan Sednev.

 Sednev Leonid Ivanovich, (near 1909 - 1942). Kitchen boy, a nephew of Ivan Dmitrievich Sednev. Followed with the Imperial family to Tobolsk and Yekaterinburg. Taken away before their execution in the house of Ipatiev. Was sent to Yaroslavl Province. Killed by the NKVD during the war.

*Info taken from Popov's archive.

 Sednev Ivan Dimitrievich, (1886 - 1918). A peasant from Yaroslavl Province. Sailor from the imperial yacht Standart. Footman of the grand duchesses. Followed with the Imperial family to Tobolsk, then arrived with them in Yekaterinburg, where in 27 of May 1918, was arrested and sent to the prison along with K. Nagorny. They both were shot at the end of the May, 1918 or in the beginning of the June, 1918. After the Siberian White Army took the Yekaterinburg their bodies were buried in the cemetery of Ivanovo, Yaroslavl Province


     Thank you for your reply and source of information.  The next time I am in/near Ivanovo Oblast, I'll see if I can get reference/direction in Ivanovo to these graves (if they are marked or still exist).  Happy Holidays,   AP.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: TennPat on December 08, 2012, 07:27:49 PM
I've been trying to figure out how the bodies  of the elder Sedlev and Nagorny got from Sverdlov oblast to Yaroslav oblast in 1919. Perhaps Leonid Sedlev accompanied the bodies since he was sent back to Yaroslav. Evidently Leonid survived until 1942. Perhaps Nagorny's family whereabouts were unknown, and they just sent both bodies to Yaroslav oblast. Maybe Nagorny was from Yaroslav oblast also.

Lots of perhaps....but it makes some sense. A young boy might have been able to make such a journey more safely than an adult.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on December 08, 2012, 08:04:48 PM
I've been trying to figure out how the bodies  of the elder Sedlev and Nagorny got from Sverdlov oblast to Yaroslav oblast in 1919..


        If indeed they ARE there.  I have never seen a picture/photo representing their alleged final graves.  Many questions. Potentially unmarked graves?  But then how would one be certain of their presence?  Which cemetery in Ivanovo (present-day oblast or city)? Extant or destroyed burial records?  Etc., etc.

        Ivanovo is not very far from one of my favorite visiting places, Yaroslavl.  Geographic/administrative boundaries have shifted over the intervening years, but I hope to go over from Yaroslavl to Ivanovo, if I have the time/opportunity upon my next visit and perhaps check with a local historical society.

                                                   Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Kalafrana on December 09, 2012, 05:55:03 AM
I would imagine that Nagorny and the other members of the household who were shot separately from the Imperial Family were buried in unmarked graves. But it would be nice to know that Nagorny and Ivan Sednev had proper burials, if that story is true.

If there any possibility that the AP Forum could get together and organise a memorial plaque for them all at the Alexander Palace?

Ann
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: edubs31 on December 09, 2012, 09:24:41 AM
I would imagine that Nagorny and the other members of the household who were shot separately from the Imperial Family were buried in unmarked graves. But it would be nice to know that Nagorny and Ivan Sednev had proper burials, if that story is true.

If there any possibility that the AP Forum could get together and organise a memorial plaque for them all at the Alexander Palace?

Ann

I would certainly go along with that! This is exactly the type of thing I would like to see in conjunction with the "Friends of TS/AP" newsletter/catalog that I believe is still in the works, yes?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on December 10, 2012, 05:06:41 PM
I haven't completely lost my memory and there is already a thread for a monument to Nagorny. It's "A Monument To Klementy Nagorny", on page three of the "Servants, Friends, Retainers" board. It's worth reading. Coincidentally, the last post to it was exactly two years ago today, also coincidentally by me. I suggest not combining them, as it might confuse the conversation.

Good idea, Kalafrana and edubs.  Let's do it ! Money well given for the fine, fine Klim Nagorny.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on December 10, 2012, 08:21:39 PM
I haven't completely lost my memory and there is already a thread for a monument to Nagorny. It's "A Monument To Klementy Nagorny", on page three of the "Servants, Friends, Retainers" board. It's worth reading. Coincidentally, the last post to it was exactly two years ago today, also coincidentally by me. I suggest not combining them, as it might confuse the conversation.

Good idea, Kalafrana and edubs.  Let's do it ! Money well given for the fine, fine Klim Nagorny.

    Thank you for bringing the earlier "monument" thread to attention again.  In reading your last post in that thread, yes,  an opportunity probably WAS missed to formally commemorate/honor in a tangible way, the faithful retainers executed (outside of those in the Ipatiev house) at the burial of Nicholas II et al.
    Following the same line of reasoning, another "natural" opportunity would be at the burial of the Heir and the other grandduchess, thought to be possibly in 2013 (Please see Paul Gilbert's "Royal Russia Bulletin" Nov.25th posting of his Nov. 22 news article in which he quotes ITAR-TASS: " The remains of the Tsesarevich Alexei Nicholayevich and the Grand Duchess Maria Nicholayevna may be buried in the summer of 2013, ITAR-TASS reports. The announcement was made on November 16th by Sergei Mironenko, Director of the State Archives of the Russian Federation (GARF) in Moscow, where the remains are currently in temporary storage.").  Please note the word "may."  Does it indicate "to give permission" or "possibly" ?  IMO, I take it to mean "possibly."
    I personally think that though the second Imperial burial/s would "complete the cycle," the burials will be quite a low-key event, whenever they occur. However, IMO, outside of the comparatively small number of Romanov enthusiasts, the names of K.G. Nargony and I. D. Sednev would not easily recognized by even most Russians in their proper/formal context.  In the larger scope of things, they simply are not "hot property."
    Certainly, a plaque at a properly-designated spot honoring ALL the faithful retainers as a group (diminishing a risk of missing someone who was "qualified," but not readily named/remembered) who paid the supreme cost for loyalty, would be in order.

                                                                                    Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on December 10, 2012, 09:04:26 PM
 Re my above post:   ".......the names of K.G. Nargony and I. D. Sednev......."     



   The correct spelling is of course, Nagorny.    Apologies.  Regards,  AP.                                                                                
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: TennPat on December 11, 2012, 10:24:18 PM
I would be interested in contributing to such a marker.   Pat
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy, mis-identification?
Post by: bkohatl on February 17, 2013, 09:44:42 PM
I've noticed that a photo of Nagorny holding Alexei while in the Gulf of Finland in 1912, but I have problem. In every other photo, Nagorny is well over six feet tall and towers over everyone else. One photo is deceptive, Alexei, Deverenko and Nagorny, if you look carefully you will notice that Nagorny is standing on a board. That aside the Finland photo can't be Nagorny, by contrasting Alexei in his arms and the sailors height, that sailor must be under six feet.
One thing has always bothered me, people confusing Nagorny and Deverenko. Anya Vyrubova aside, Deverenko did the smart thing and Nagorny the right thing. Nagorny had a wife and children. No one would have blamed him had he left after the revolution to be with them. But when the Czar and his family needed him most, he chose to do the honorable course.
If Anya was correct, then Deverenko was the ultimate fair weather friend. Understandable under the circumstance, but not in any way honorable or right.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: blessOTMA on February 18, 2013, 11:16:21 AM
Well everyone must choose for themselves...and it seems in such a extreme circumstances  it's not a choice in some ways...each did what they felt they had to do . I'm  not letting Deverenko off the hook there! If Anna was speaking truthfully , Deverenko didn't just run off, but humiliated Alexei along the way..... that ordering Alexei about  seems alot for someone to make up so I tend to believe it  ...but who knows .

Are you speaking of the photo where the sailor who is holding Alexei above the water
has water proof hip boots on?  That is Nagorny imo The difference in body type between the two men is marked

I've always wondered why there are so many photos of Deverenko with Alexei, but much fewer with Nagorny?

P. Gillard paints an unforgettable picture of Nagorny leaving Impative House  that does much to
illustrate the man's dignified and awesome heroism  though out this time. Dignity at such a time is a rare commodity ,
it's so costly .
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 27, 2013, 07:38:21 PM
From the book "The Last Tsar" by E Radzinsky has some information on Nagorny's fate. It has Peter Ermakov telling a group of (Red) Pioneers he shot "A Tsarist lackey the former heirs companion". It also mentions that Nagorny argued with Rodionov on the Russ and he argued with another guard while going into the Ipatev house who may have been Ermakov. Since both of these people were rather nasty to put it mildly they both had good reasons to kill him.
 I find certain things about the box of bombs odd. I don't think Nagorny or Sednev would have got hold of them without permission from Nicholas. These two traveled to Ekaterinberg with the OTAA group. All the bags were searched before they were let in the house and they missed a box with 9 bombs/grenades in it !? If they did manage to get them inside they would have told Nicholas and others about them fairly quickly. No doubt they would have been hid away for use in a escape or rescue attempt. Also note counting these two there are 14 people in 5 rooms trying to keep them a secreat would have been almost impossible.
 As for Kharitonov handing over the box of 9 bombs to the guards and telling them he found them where Nagorny and sednev sleep. I find this almost unbelieveable.
Why would he do this and expose them to reprisals?
Why didn't any off the others see this or notice the bombs missing?
Why didn't the Urals Soviet order a search of the IFs rooms after this? Note the men of the Urals Soviet were a bunch of hard core revolutionaries who had hundreds of people shot for little or no reason during this time period.
It could be this incident was made up as an excuse to get rid of nagorny and Sednev.
 Finally, any members of the IF entorage that are still with them on the move to Ekaterinberg must have been a real loyal, deadicated, brave bunch of people not a bunch of snitches and stab your friend in the back types.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on February 27, 2013, 08:20:41 PM
For what it's worth, here's the account of the bomb incident from the Ipatiev guard duty book, as printed in Last Act of a Tragedy (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=109):
June 1
Personal request from citizen Botkin to find his suitcase that was sent from Tobolsk.
About 13 p. m. I received a statement from cook Kharitonov that there was something on top of the wardrobe in the room where Citizens Sednev and Nagorny had stayed previously. When I got there, it turned out that eight armed bombs were on top of the wardrobe Kharitonov had mentioned. Five of them were numbered 35, 73, 92 and were bottle-shaped. Another two had no numbers. Two bombs were round. One bomb, No. 11, was egg-shaped. The bombs were disarmed in the guard room. From further interrogation of citizens Kharitonov and Trupp the following was discovered: Because a new brick stove was being built in the room, where Kharitonov and Trupp were staying, they had access to the neighbouring unoccupied room. Kharitonov, wishing to clean up the dust in the room, found the bombs on top of the wardrobe and reported them to the guard room. I informed Comrade Avdeyev, commandant of the House of Special Purpose about it and he, in turn, informed Comrade Beloborodov, chairman of the regional soviet.



Incidentally, here's an intriguing tidbit from the entry for May 15, the same day NAM arrived from Tobolsk:
There were no incidents during my duty. But after changing the guard, 12 knives hidden in the yard were found.

Makes it sound like there were weapons scattered all over the property!
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 28, 2013, 05:51:54 PM
If I was a member of the Urals Soviet and incidents like this happened with weapons being found ect. my hair would be standing on end. This is because if the IF escaped Lenin would most likely have me shot. It looks like Kharitonov may not have realized what he had found or what the consequences would be.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: blessOTMA on March 03, 2013, 09:36:45 AM
Indeed, considering how thoroughly they were searched upon arrival, how on earth did nine "bombs" get though?
and then simply left behind for Kharitonov and Trupp to stumble upon? It seems impossible  Tsar or Botkin
did not know about them. It seems it was decided Kharitonov and Trupp would report them found  in the room of the newly departed
Nagorny before they were found in a search.

Nagorny joined the  family  the day after the children arrived at the house  I believe , having with him Alexi's dog , Joy....but he had to be thoroughly searched upon arrival. Just that he made it to spend some time at Ipatiev House is impressive, others  did not
 
 It would be intriguing to know what is meant by " bomb". A molotov cocktail? a professionally produced one?
Where the bombs made in the house ( as with a A molotov cocktail? Lord knows they had bottles) and in that way not found upon arrival ?

In any case, this is indeed an earthquake treated quite lightly  .

Interesting about the knives at Tobolsk ! Sounds like a usual respose to being imprisoned.
The impulse behind Olga's gun finding other expressions
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on March 03, 2013, 09:42:07 AM

Interesting about the knives at Tobolsk ! Sounds like a usual respose to being imprisoned.
The impulse behind Olga's gun finding other expressions

This was in the yard at Ekaterinburg -- the day NAM arrived from Tobolsk.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on March 04, 2013, 05:52:25 PM
For what it's worth, here's the account of the bomb incident from the Ipatiev guard duty book, as printed in Last Act of a Tragedy (http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/books.html?sku=109):
June 1
Personal request from citizen Botkin to find his suitcase that was sent from Tobolsk.
About 13 p. m. I received a statement from cook Kharitonov that there was something on top of the wardrobe in the room where Citizens Sednev and Nagorny had stayed previously. When I got there, it turned out that eight armed bombs were on top of the wardrobe Kharitonov had mentioned. Five of them were numbered 35, 73, 92 and were bottle-shaped. Another two had no numbers. Two bombs were round. One bomb, No. 11, was egg-shaped. The bombs were disarmed in the guard room. From further interrogation of citizens Kharitonov and Trupp the following was discovered: Because a new brick stove was being built in the room, where Kharitonov and Trupp were staying, they had access to the neighbouring unoccupied room. Kharitonov, wishing to clean up the dust in the room, found the bombs on top of the wardrobe and reported them to the guard room. I informed Comrade Avdeyev, commandant of the House of Special Purpose about it and he, in turn, informed Comrade Beloborodov, chairman of the regional soviet.



Incidentally, here's an intriguing tidbit from the entry for May 15, the same day NAM arrived from Tobolsk:
There were no incidents during my duty. But after changing the guard, 12 knives hidden in the yard were found.

Makes it sound like there were weapons scattered all over the property!

The situation cited in that guard log book entry strikes me as beyond bizzare. Let's rule out owner Ipatiev. So it could have been Bolsheviks in charge of the property for about a month at that point. But why hide a dozen knives in the yard ,or even a few? Were they buried or just casually hidden like Easter eggs for a hunt?

But there's also no way in hell the first Romanov prisoners brought to the house could have or would have done this. They were too well-guarded to have hidden much unobserved , not to mention that hidden knives would be worthless for an escape attempt, would be a serious danger to their lives if discovered and tied to the Romanov party,and the few men capable of using knives effectively, Nagornyand Sednev,basically, would not have risked everyone's lives with such rashness. 

 Thanks for noting that entry,Sarushka. I'm amazed it hasn't been leapt upon by commentators, nor by the Bolshevik biggies on the scene.
Why didn't all hell break loose right away? But I presume it didn't because there's no further mention of buried knives anywhere that I know of.

Bolshevik provocation is a very strong possibility,of course.They did the whole bogus French " loyal officer" letters  bit after all. Hidden weapons strikes me as a far greater rationale,but one unused. But in the absence of any comment by them or real repercussions to the Romanovs, we're left with this strange case of the dog that didn't bark.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 07, 2013, 08:30:03 PM
When they say bombs they mean hand grenades back then. the 5 bottle shaped bombs are like the german WW II stick grenades only with a shorter handle and a wider bottle shaped head. They are most likely standard Russian hand grenade of the period and their WW II ones were similiar. the 2 round and 1 egg grenades I don't know if they were Russian or Allied made grenades they were possibly about the size of a baseball or cricket ball. the egg grenade was oval in shape. Also note the bottle grenades were several inches long. So this was no really small box.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: blessOTMA on March 14, 2013, 10:18:05 PM
I tend to think you are right they were grenades because a shape is spoken about...
Quote
Bolshevik provocation is a very strong possibility,of course.They did the whole bogus French " loyal officer" letters  bit after all. Hidden weapons strikes me as a far greater rationale,but one unused. But in the absence of any comment by them or real repercussions to the Romanovs, we're left with this strange case of the dog that didn't bark

Excellent point...both thier appearance the the yawn they caused
when turned in seem to point to provocation plan...spoiled by the prisoners turning them in asap.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on March 14, 2013, 10:30:00 PM
...spoiled by the prisoners turning them in asap.

Or it worked perfectly -- by removing the two most able-bodied men from the retinue.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Lady Macduff on July 29, 2013, 09:11:15 AM
In The Fall of the Romanovs he is noted as Klim in the index. Who referred to him by this nickname?
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on July 29, 2013, 05:36:02 PM
In The Fall of the Romanovs he is noted as Klim in the index. Who referred to him by this nickname?

I think primarily OTMAA who  were more informal than their parents and would have had a lot of contact with him,especially Alexei, of course.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: blessOTMA on July 29, 2013, 08:28:01 PM
The children and Alix seemed to like to use  nicknames for those around them
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on July 29, 2013, 10:03:39 PM
Alexandra was also fond of abbreviations in her letters and diaries. She may have referred to him this way in her private writings, but I don't know that she ever addressed him directly as Klim.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 14, 2013, 01:08:10 PM

  I'm surprised more isn't known about Nagorny.  As Alexei's nanny at times he was extremely important to the IF. The Family intimates who published memoirs after the Revolution might understandibly not have said much about him, but I would think subsequent researchers might have discovered more.

  In any case I  think I know enough to greatly respect and admire him. He came to Tatiana's aid at Ekaterinburg and there is considerable reason to credit the story of standing up for Alexei against would-be Bolshevik thieves. At at ime when he moved among such hostile men, this alone showed great courage. To be a sailor loyal to the IF then was obviously a provocation to Red extremists.

  Above all he remained faithful to the end. He chose exile and the associated danger of it freely. Not that many did. I know I'm putting the case strongly, but I believe he was a hero. May God bless Nagorny. And we should remember him.

On the Servants as Saints Too
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=2968.msg526938#msg526938
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 14, 2013, 01:12:42 PM
In The Fall of the Romanovs he is noted as Klim in the index. Who referred to him by this nickname?

I would like to point out that the name "Clement" in Russian is spelled with an "i" as the initial vowel, not "e" as in English.

Thus, his name was Климент in Russian, so "Klim" is simply the first syllable of his actual name.

Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Sarushka on August 14, 2013, 10:23:15 PM
Thus, his name was Климент in Russian, so "Klim" is simply the first syllable of his actual name.

So this is more likely an abbreviation than a nickname.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 15, 2013, 09:32:56 AM
Thus, his name was Климент in Russian, so "Klim" is simply the first syllable of his actual name.

So this is more likely an abbreviation than a nickname.

Yes. But I don't know anyone named Kliment in Russian, so I'm not sure if it's an established diminutive, or not.

Sometimes, when there isn't a generally accepted diminutive, people make one up.

I don't know if "Klim" in Russian could be considered the equivalent of "Clem" for Clement, as in English.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on August 15, 2013, 06:38:31 PM

  I'm surprised more isn't known about Nagorny.  As Alexei's nanny at times he was extremely important to the IF. The Family intimates who published memoirs after the Revolution might understandibly not have said much about him, but I would think subsequent researchers might have discovered more.

  In any case I  think I know enough to greatly respect and admire him. He came to Tatiana's aid at Ekaterinburg and there is considerable reason to credit the story of standing up for Alexei against would-be Bolshevik thieves. At at ime when he moved among such hostile men, this alone showed great courage. To be a sailor loyal to the IF then was obviously a provocation to Red extremists.

  Above all he remained faithful to the end. He chose exile and the associated danger of it freely. Not that many did. I know I'm putting the case strongly, but I believe he was a hero. May God bless Nagorny. And we should remember him.

On the Servants as Saints Too
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=2968.msg526938#msg526938

 Does  the implication of the servants as saints too apply  to those servants other than the four killed at Ipatiev House ? and thus to Nagorny, Sednev,among many others? I would like to think so, especially for Nagorny. I'm not Orthodox but I see him as a  saintly and a blessed man.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Kalafrana on August 16, 2013, 05:11:41 AM
I have recently seen a reference (trying to remember where) to 'the Martyr Vassili Dolgoruky'.

Regards

Ann
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 16, 2013, 12:28:44 PM

 
Quote
Does  the implication of the servants as saints too apply  to those servants other than the four killed at Ipatiev House ? and thus to Nagorny, Sednev,among many others? I would like to think so, especially for Nagorny. I'm not Orthodox but I see him as a  saintly and a blessed man.

Well, yes, of course. They all appear to the right (of the viewer) in the ROCOR icon of the New Martyrs of Russia, right next to the Imperial Family:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Romanovs%20in%20art/Ikona8.jpg
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 17, 2013, 10:58:34 AM
PS: I forgot to point out that all the retainers and servants who died with or for the Imperial family are also mentioned by name in the ROCOR's church service to the Royal Martyrs.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Rodney_G. on August 17, 2013, 11:32:06 AM
PS: I forgot to point out that all the retainers and servants who died with or for the Imperial family are also mentioned by name in the ROCOR's church service to the Royal Martyrs.

I'm glad and it's only fitting. It helps keep their names and memory alive.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Kalafrana on August 17, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
Inok Nikolai

I'm glad too. Is it possible to post a larger version of the picture so that we can get a clearer view of all the Martyrs?

Ann
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 17, 2013, 03:18:28 PM
Inok Nikolai

I'm glad too. Is it possible to post a larger version of the picture so that we can get a clearer view of all the Martyrs?

Ann

Well, posted elsewhere on the Forum is this collection of icons:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11796.msg337390#msg337390

Which has this close-up of the bottom part of the icon:
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/ikone/edb91f55.jpg

The Royal Martyrs are in the center, Grand Duchess Elizabeth and Sister Barbara are on the left, with the other Grand Dukes and Princes;
On the right are the retainers and servants:
Next to G. D. Tatiana is Anna Demidova, then Vasily Dologorukov, Iliya Tatishchev, Dr. Eugene Botkin (holding a medicine box), Catherine Schneider, Anastasia Hendrikova, Ivan Sednev, Klement Nagorny, Ivan Haritonov (in his cook's apron!), and Alexis Trupp.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Kalafrana on August 18, 2013, 03:53:27 AM
Thank you. There are lots of other people there as well. Who are they all?

I'm also slightly confused about the 'status' (not a good word but the best I can think of) of all these in the Orthodox Church. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Nicholas and family are Passion Bearers because they did not actually die for the faith. However, Elizabeth is a Martyr, and so are various others, including Vassili Dolgoruky. Please could you explain.

Ann
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 19, 2013, 09:15:45 AM
Thank you. There are lots of other people there as well. Who are they all?

The icon is meant to be representative of all the New Martyrs of Russia, so there are members of every group of Russian society. The New Martyrs number in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

The original icon hangs in the church at the Russian Orthodox Monastery of the Holy Trinity in Jordanville, NY USA. It's approx. four feet by three feet, or maybe even five foot by four, so, of course, the figures and inscriptions are much more visible there.

On line you may be able to find a better copy.

Look at the full copy here:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Romanovs%20in%20art/I
kona8.jpg

At the top, center is our Saviour, flanked by the Mother of God and St. John the Baptist. On either side of them are other Russian saints: SS. Vladimir and Olga, Boris and Gleb, St. Seraphim of Sarov, St. Sergius, etc.

In the very center, holding the Cross, are Patriarch Tikhon, the New Confessor for the Faith, and Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev, the first hierarch to be martyred. He was shot by the Bolsheviks in January of 1918. At that time the All-Russian Church Council was still in session in Moscow. The members of the council held a memorial service for Metropolitan Vladimir, and decreed that the day of his martyrdom should be kept as the day to commemorate all those then being persecuted for the faith. So, the ROCOR bishops in 1981 were simply fulfilling the will of the council.

On either side of Patriarch Tikhon and Metropolitan Vladimir are other bishops who were killed for the faith. Then there are groups of monks and nuns and parish clergy. (On the original icon one is able to read the names in the halos.)

In the posting above it was pointed out who are next to the Royal Martyrs.

In addition, the close-up shows those next to Grand Duchess Elizabeth and Barbara:
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Romanov/ikone/edb91f55.jpg

Grand Duke Michael is between G. D. Olga and Elizabeth. Further to the left are those who were cast down the mine shaft with Grand Duchess Elizabeth: the Constantinovichi Princes, etc.

At the bottom of the icon are representatives of all the classes and walks of life in the Russian Empire: soldiers, men, women, children of every rank. As the church services put it "whose names are known to Thee alone, O God".

The names inscribed in columns on either side of the icon are those of other martyrs whose lives are known, but who are not depicted on the icon itself. As I said, the icon can only represent the great host of new martyrs.


Quote
I'm also slightly confused about the 'status' (not a good word but the best I can think of) of all these in the Orthodox Church. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Nicholas and family are Passion Bearers because they did not actually die for the faith. However, Elizabeth is a Martyr, and so are various others, including Vassili Dolgoruky. Please could you explain.
Ann


I understand your question, but it is not really a matter of rank or status among the saints. The "categories" (again, not the best word) are those of this world. Obviously, in the Kingdom the saints will not be segregated into groups or ranks.
And if one has been saved and attained the Kingdom of heaven, it matters little what "status" one was given by the faithful on earth. The Orthodox Church does not have any strict, legalistic stratification of the saints or their prestige, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

Hope this has helped.
I. N.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Inok Nikolai on August 19, 2013, 01:05:31 PM
P.S. The titles given to the different saints simply convey what many perceive as being their chief attribute or accomplishment, but the titles are not mutually exclusive.

A martyr is someone who died for the faith; a wonder-worker is noted for his miracles; an "unmercenary healer" is a doctor who healed people for free, and often miraculously; a Passion-bearer is someone who was put to death unjustly, often out of envy of their pious or righteous way of life, etc.

But one and the same saint can be both a martyr and a wonder-worker, or an unmercenary healer and martyr.

However, in the case of the Royal Martyrs, it does seem that the Moscow Patriarchate, judging from its own official pronouncements on the question, treated the Imperial family rather condescendingly: "Well, they don't quite make it as true 'martyrs', but we will grant that they could be honored as 'Passion-bearers'.

Such pedantry seems out of place and only tends to confuse the faithful and non-Orthodox alike.
Title: Re: Klementiy Nagorniy
Post by: Kalafrana on August 20, 2013, 04:30:33 AM
.any thanks.

Ann