Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: AGRBear on December 16, 2004, 01:44:41 PM

Title: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on December 16, 2004, 01:44:41 PM
Was it possible that it was Tatiana who survived?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on December 16, 2004, 01:45:34 PM
Quote
At the risk of going round an old loop for members I'm afraid Occleshaw's book does not bear serious examination.  A few points:

1/  Occleshaw has "Tatiana" flown out of Ekaterinberg by the British.  He doesn't explain how any aircraft got there or how it managed to then fly her to Vladivostok.  I have spoken at some length on this subject with the former editor of "Cross & Cockade International" and we are agreed there was no aircraft at the time could have feasibly done this.

2/ Occleshaw claims that records of the RAF contingent in North Russia 1918 (where he assumes the aircraft came from) are not released into the National Archive AIR1 papers and claims to have information they never will be.  He is correct in this - because they are in the AIR2 series and I have copies of them in my drawer.  Curiously they make no reference to a rescue mission.

3/ Occleshaw claims that Richard Meinertzhagen was working for a War Office section dealing with Intelligence on Russia - not according to the contemporary War Office List he wasn't.

4/ Occleshaw claims that a mysterious Miss Marguerite Lindsay who entered UK on 8 August 1918 on the same ship as Mrs Meinertzhagen was "Tatiana" as there is no record of her ever existing.  Those interested can trace her previous trans-atlantic journeys by looking her up on the Ellis Island web-site.  She seems to have travelled frequently prior to 1918.

5/ Occleshaw neglects to mention, in his excitement at finding Miss Lindsay arriving on the same ship as Mrs Meinertzhagen, that Richard meinertzhagen and his wife loathed each other like poison and their marriage was likely never consumated.  Mrs M is hardly the person he'd trust on a delicate mission.

Just a few of the fairly serious objections to Occleshaw's book which older members may have seen before.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on December 16, 2004, 01:51:13 PM
There is noted in some books that an airplane did fly over the Impatiev House and it's presents seem to distrub the CHEKA.

The RAF were not the only airplanes in the sky.  The Reds and the Whites had their own airplanes.

I've forgotten the URL but there is a site that talks about the WWI Aces and there is some on the Red and White air forces.  

I remember seeing in the Russian SF museum some photographs of the White Army pilots who were considered heroes.

Course,  I'm not saying that Occleshaw's story is how Tatiana escaped,  if she is the one who did,  I'm just adding to what Phil was saying.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Alice on December 16, 2004, 06:09:25 PM
Quote
Was it possible that it was Tatiana who survived?

AGRBear


Yes, if umpteem American and Russian experts are wrong.

Otherwise, no.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Annie on December 16, 2004, 07:37:28 PM
As with the the other sisters, there is a difference between 'missing' and 'survived.' A body is missing, but that doesn't necessarily mean she got away:(
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Laura Mabee on December 17, 2004, 11:15:12 PM
Hey guys, Livadia.org has a worked on a research paper with some others on this subject.

Here is the link:
http://www.livadia.org/missing/
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on December 18, 2004, 12:05:36 AM
I have always said that we will never be sure which sister is missing until we find the remains of the one who is missing. It could really be Tatiana, Marie, or Anastasia who is missing from the grave - but that does not mean that the missing sister survived.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on December 29, 2004, 11:58:42 AM
Quote
Hey guys, Livadia.org has a worked on a research paper with some others on this subject.
 
Here is the link:
http://www.livadia.org/missing/


I think Alia, Mikki & Lishka did a very well thought out web site.  
It's worth a visit.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Czarevna Colleen on January 01, 2005, 02:28:52 PM
What differing opinions we all have!!!  (Of course, it just makes these discussions all the more interesting).  Thanks for the link, too.  I'll check it out.  In response to claims of Tatiana Nicolaievna surviving and Dr.  Michael Occleshaw's writings, I have my own views on the subject.  While I do believe that the House Of Windsor does know more than they have revealed about the fate of the Romanovs, and I do think it's possible that one or more of the family survived, I don't necessarily believe Occleshaw's theories.  The Lydd connection and grave of "Larissa Fedorovna" is interesting, and since the woman has no living relatives, I have to wonder if it would be permitted to exhume the grave and at least try to give them a DNA test at least to put that side of the story to rest.  There are many coincidences between Owen Tudor's first wife and the Grand Duchess Tatiana, and it is also an interesting point that three people who knew the Tudors positively identified a photograph of Tatiana as Larissa.  That aggravating photo from the Yorkshire newspaper "The Harrogate Harold" does add something to the mystery, since the picture cannot be improved due to the lack of negatives, and the fact that the person in question who resembles Tatiana is not named.

But some of the stories that Occleshaw collected around the time of the murders doesn't ring true.  For example, the testimony of Georgi Biron, supposed executioner of the family (funny, his name hasn't been mentioned in other accounts or books), about how the family was killed doesn't make sense, along with this bit of information:  Biron was quoted as saying, "Regarding Princess Tatiana Nicolaievna, she ran away or disappeared with the one of the Red Guards, long before this, perhaps even from Tobolsk."  Now, the photographs taken of the family while imprisoned in Tobolsk show Tatiana to be present in most of them, which doesn't necessarily mean anything, since we don't know exactly when the pictures were taken.  But, Pierre Guillard recalled seeing the rest of the children off to Ekaterinburg after the Czar, Czarina and Marie Nicolaievna had left, and he describes in clear and tearful detail as the children were trudging through the snow, and he saw Tatiana sink deeper and deeper into the mud, until she reached the transportation.  Also, the priests who performed the last religious service to the family on 14 July 1918 has claimed that the entire family was present.

There are many holes in the story regarding Meinertzhagen's diary account of rescuing one of the daughters, that many of you have mentioned here.  

I don't know what to think about the remains that were found, since so many have disputed the claim that they are the bodies of the Romanovs.  I have always believed that Anastasia surivived, but I am willing to keep an open mind.  There are just so many things about the accounts of the murders, disposal of the bodies, remains and survival claims that do not make sense or that are puzzling.  I hope one day it can all be put to rest. ??? :'( :-/
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on January 01, 2005, 03:39:55 PM
As I have stated in other threads, I think if highly unlikely that anyone survived. The leap in logic between two missing bodies to anyone surviving is enormous. Of course it is possible that Tatiana's body is missing. That would not necessarily mean Tatiana survived!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lanie on January 01, 2005, 03:41:06 PM
Quote
As I have stated in other threads, I think if highly unlikely that anyone survived. The leap in logic between two missing bodies to anyone surviving is enormous. Of course it is possible that Tatiana's body is missing. That would not necessarily mean Tatiana survived!


Here, here, Lisa!  Of course, people like to think that missing bodies = survived, I have no clue WHY...
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on January 02, 2005, 12:04:38 PM
Quote
.... [in part]....
For example, the testimony of Georgi Biron, supposed executioner of the family (funny, his name hasn't been mentioned in other accounts or books), about how the family was killed doesn't make sense, along with this bit of information:  Biron was quoted as saying, "Regarding Princess Tatiana Nicolaievna, she ran away or disappeared with the one of the Red Guards, long before this, perhaps even from Tobolsk."
.....


Where did you read about Georgi  Biron?  You were talking about "stories that Occleshaw collected", was this one???

AGRBear

PS  As long as two bodies are missing, one can only speculate what happen to them.  To speculate doesn't mean just thinking of theories of where they were buried, speculation can, and does, include a possible escape for one or both children of Nicholas II.


PSS Joining a circus is exactly how one of my relatives did escape so who knows,  truth can sometimes be stranger than fiction.

PSSS  Could Occleshaw story about Tatiana been in error and  it was not Tatiana who ran away but Maria?  According to  King and Wilson,  it was Maria and one of the guards who seem to be having some kind of romance.  Evdience was because of a birthday cake and their absence....
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: BobAtchison on January 02, 2005, 12:32:39 PM
In my opinion the skull of Tatiana is obviously hers - sadly so.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Czarevna Colleen on January 02, 2005, 01:48:26 PM
Yes, AGRBear, that quote about Tatiana running away with a Red Guard was from Occleshaw's book.  And yes, truth can be stranger than fiction.  It could be possible that one of the children survived.  That story about Marie is new too me, but of course, anything is possible. Do you know where I could get more info on the subject?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on January 02, 2005, 05:10:11 PM
It was in Greg King and Penny Wilson's book :  THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS p. 244.  They talk about Maria's birthday when Maria and one of the guards  disapeared  for a time that afternoon.... He was sent away and vanished.....

I suggested she and the guard may not have returned. Did that get a lot of responses which told me I was ABSOLUTELY wrong on that speculation....  It is true, owever,  Nicholas II stopped writing in his diary for a time after this...  This is when Yurovsky jumps into the picture and takes over..... The others do mention Maria being present in the house in their diaries up to the night of 16 July....

Can anyone remember on what thread this was discussed earlier?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Czarevna Colleen on January 02, 2005, 05:57:06 PM
By the way, the stories and theories about Tatiana having been rescued as well as theories about possible escape by two of the daughters is in Dr. Michael Occleshaw's book "The Romanov Conspiracies".  He also gives some reference about the supposed "rescue route" of the rescued Grand Duchess in one of his earlier books, "Armor Against Fate".
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Czarevna Colleen on February 24, 2005, 06:57:53 PM
Here is another statement from Occleshaw's book by Herr Pollman, who had been living in Siberia while it was occupied by the Whites, and Occleshaw included this excerpt in a chapter involving the Kaiser and the German government.  Pollman stated,

"The Czar's family with the exception of the Grand Duchess Tatiana really was murdered.  The only survivors were Miss Buxhoveden and the teachers.  The elderly Dr. Botkin and the Prince Dologorouki were likewise killed.  The inquiry that Kolchak had formed yielded that the corpses were burnt. The place of cremation is well-known.  They had also found there among other things a jaw of the Czar. indistinguishable from gold fillings from the teeth.  The Grand Duchess Elizabeth with the others in Alapaevsk was thrown down a shaft.  The corpse was later buried.  The Grand Duke Michael was also found in safety with Kolchak."

I don't know what to make of that, any of it, since so many rumors and statements were made at the time.  I do think that the grave of "Larissa Fedorovna" should be exhumed to at least have an answer to that question, so at least there will be something of a conclusion.   And that whole thing with Marguerite Lindsay . . . . . .  Strange.  

I have a definate appetite for mysteries!!!  ??? 8) :o :D ;)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Arianwen on February 25, 2005, 12:21:42 AM
Quote
In my opinion the skull of Tatiana is obviously hers - sadly so.


Bob, if you don't mind my asking, which of the skulls reputed to be Tatiana do you believe to be hers? #5 or #6?

I actually did one of my theses at uni on which daughter I believe to be missing, and I certainly found it enlightening. I'd never had much of a chance to research the forensics and the burial site excavations in that much detail. I even got my husband, the 'anti-historian', interested, though mostly because he read biomedical engineering for his pre-med and he's a self-professed science geek. ;)

I don't believe anyone made it out of the cellar alive, though we'll never know for sure until the other two remains are found, if they ever are.

Regards,
Arianwen
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: _mysterious on March 04, 2005, 09:21:39 PM
Quote
If she did survive, which isn't likely, she wouldn't be alive now, unless she was 100+ yrs. old, so what is the point in pursuing such things if they only baffle annoy, stump, and over take our lives to no avail?  Not to force my opinions on anyone, or disappoint you in any way.


Why not? What is the point of life anyways? Some people like mysteries and have a healthy curiousity. People like us are't ones to accept that the way things are, are the way things are. People like me want answers, want to think on our own, challenge the mind so to speak! Well, that and it makes a great plot in a book.  ;)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: griffin on March 08, 2005, 09:53:23 PM
I found Occleshaw's book interesting but I had problems with the number of 2nd hand accounts he heavily based his theory on, and he really seemed to be reaching in a couple places. I still find it interesting that he found several people who were completely convinced that 2 of the daughters survived particularly the accounts from Lady Preston and Major Alley's wife.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2005, 09:03:29 PM
By Penny:

It seems that in the early days of this case, the recovered Grand Duchess was named as both Anastasia and Tatiana.
 
The word that she was Tatiana penetrated the upper level of society, and I remember that one of the early visitors (Zena Tolstoy?) came thinking she was Tatiana, and announced -- on seeing the length of the person on the bed -- that she was "too short" to be Tatiana.
 
On another occasion, Princess Martha of Sweden drove to hospital to see the patient.  She had known the Grand Duchesses in childhood, and is in several well-known photographs with them; she was closest in age to Maria and Anastasia.  On arriving at the hospital, she saw the patient strolling outside and exclaimed that this woman was not Tatiana, but was rather most definitely Anastasia.  
 
Princess Martha's escort was surprised, because no-one had thought to clarify to the Princess that it was Anastasia that they were trying to identify, and that no claim had ever been made that she was Tatiana.

Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 01, 2005, 09:33:50 PM
Thank you, Annie. It was just time to start another thread!  :)

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Georgiy on August 01, 2005, 10:46:20 PM
I think it was Baroness Buxhoeveden who said she was too short to be Tatiana. Interesting that she didn't say "But just the right height to be Anastasia!" In fact her statement would seem to suggest that she did not recognise AA as a Romanov girl.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Kransnoeselo on August 01, 2005, 10:54:49 PM
It was Sophie Bux. who was the one who made the comment about AA's height in relation to Tatiana.  Upon Sophie's arrival AA had at first refused to see Sophie and when pressed she held her bed sheets over her face.  Sophie yanked the sheets off and dragged AA to her feet. Sophie then left having commented to the effect that AA was "too short" to be Tatiana but was the same height of Anastasia, but that she was not her either.

Hope that helps

Tim
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Georgiy on August 01, 2005, 11:16:23 PM
thanks for that info, Krasnoeselo. I din't realise she'd said AA was the right height for Anastasia. Maybe that comment set it all off. AA sits there in the bed and thinks "Aha! I'll be Anastasia then...."
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Finelly on August 01, 2005, 11:59:07 PM
...or maybe she never said she was either of the GDs, and people assumed she was Tatiana, and afterwards she said "I never said I was Tatiana", and later, when presented with a list of the GDs, she crossed off three names, leaving AN's name.

Which makes one wonder......if there were rumors all over that AN survived, why did anyone assume she was Tatiana?

We're missing something here..........or not.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Margarita Markovna on August 02, 2005, 04:25:23 PM
Quote
thanks for that info, Krasnoeselo. I din't realise she'd said AA was the right height for Anastasia. Maybe that comment set it all off. AA sits there in the bed and thinks "Aha! I'll be Anastasia then...."



Haha, good one Georgiy! (Actually I think that maybe that could be what happened- but don't listen to me because I am not as well-read on the subject of AA as many of you posting in this section)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: etonexile on August 02, 2005, 07:34:08 PM
Really reassuring that AA could seemingly accept the identity of whichever GD she seemed to resemble.... ::)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on August 02, 2005, 07:52:23 PM
In fact, she ressembled much more to Tatiana than to Anastasia. Just for that, she was confounded. Siblings could ressamble so much each other when they went older. Yesterday, my mother was watching family photos with cousin Marta and saw a baby girl: "Oh! -pointe her- this my cousin Raquel". "No! -laughed Marta aloud- You are wrong! This is not my sister, but me!"...And my mother would have swored that Marta was Raquel...

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: annaanderson on December 03, 2005, 11:13:18 PM
It will never be known as a 100% if anyone escaped, but facts are that Tatiana is among the nine found in the grave. Dr. William Maples was very convincing and gave reasons WHY he thought it was Alexei and Anastasia missing from the grave.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 19, 2006, 10:58:03 AM
I've looked all over the darned survivors board and I still cannot find what I am looking for!  Are there any other threads on this "Larissa Feodorova" or Tudor or whatever last name she took?  If not, are there any websites out there with pictures and information.  This person is new to me and I really want to check it out!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Rachael89 on January 19, 2006, 11:14:42 AM
Here's another thread on the claimants board about her:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=loonies;action=display;num=1117643820

She's one of the 'claimants' who never even claimed to be Tatiana, at least not publicly, her story is based on accounts of those who lived near her and assumptions on the part of Occleshaw.

Hope that helps

Rachael
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Tsarina_Liz on January 19, 2006, 02:34:44 PM
Quote
Here's another thraed on the claimants board about her:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=loonies;action=display;num=1117643820

She's one of the 'claimants' who never even claimed to be Tatiana, at least not publiclly, her story is based on accounts of those who lived near her and assumptions on the part of Occleshaw.

Hope that helps

Rachael


Thanks!  For some reason it never entered my head to look in the claiments' site...  ::)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on November 09, 2006, 06:33:29 AM
Just a couple of queries on Phil Tomaseli's posting.

The Bristol F2 Fighter could have done it with refuelling stops and it was in service about the right time.

Alos I've looked Marguerite Lindsay up on the Ellis Island site and could not trace her at all - not at the age she should have been. I note that it may only cover arrivals to NY.

Tranwell
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Tsarfan on November 09, 2006, 10:06:07 AM

. . . but of course, anything is possible.


This is the core fallacy that fuels these endless threads about the possible survival of Alexei or Anastasia or Maria or Tatiana.

Some things are, in fact, not possible.  It is not possible that the sun orbits the earth.  It is not possible that the earth has no atmosphere.  It is not possible that this post was put up without someone having written it. 

Other things are so unlikely as to be impossible in any practical sense.  This is especially the case when it would take a whole series of highly unlikely events all  to have occurred to generate the claimed outcome.  And the occurence of that series of highly unlikely events is exactly what every single one of these absurd survival stories depend upon . . . including, for starters, the ridiculous assumption that the Bolsheviks would have let anyone escape death on that night in July 1918.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: imperial angel on November 09, 2006, 12:13:40 PM
I can only agree. You could not have put it better. At the end, this survival business, while certainly interesting to discuss, is also rather silly. It doesn't make any sense to say that anyone survived, at all. But, it was such a lurid business with some of these survivors that it is VERY interesting to read about them and debate them. They were all colorful people, one way or the other.Tatiana didn't survive, nor did anybody else, but to some, anything is possible. ;)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on November 09, 2006, 12:21:57 PM
The references to Marguerite Lindsay's travels via Ellis Island are 1915 giving age 18 and residence Montreal, and 1923 giving age 27 and residence New York City, both consistent with the ML mentioned in Occleshaw's book which gives a 1918 age of 22.  Occleshaw says a search showed nobody of the right name and age anywhere.  He obviously didn't look hard enough.

And yes, a Bristol Fighter could have done it with refuelling stops but with a range of approx 300 miles (which I'm having checked) you must be able to show that there was capacity to organise these fuel dumps, explain how on earth such a small aircraft managed to fly the remaining 2,500 miles to Vladivostok, and quite why the British were so stupid as to send one small 2 seater aircraft to rescue a family of 7.

Over to you..........

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 09, 2006, 08:34:21 PM
The references to Marguerite Lindsay's travels via Ellis Island are 1915 giving age 18 and residence Montreal, and 1923 giving age 27 and residence New York City, both consistent with the ML mentioned in Occleshaw's book which gives a 1918 age of 22.  Occleshaw says a search showed nobody of the right name and age anywhere.  He obviously didn't look hard enough.

And yes, a Bristol Fighter could have done it with refuelling stops but with a range of approx 300 miles (which I'm having checked) you must be able to show that there was capacity to organise these fuel dumps, explain how on earth such a small aircraft managed to fly the remaining 2,500 miles to Vladivostok, and quite why the British were so stupid as to send one small 2 seater aircraft to rescue a family of 7.

Over to you..........

Phil Tomaselli

I've always wondered about that too, the part about sending a two-seater plane. It will be interesting to see that the speculation is about that because is never made sense.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on November 10, 2006, 02:16:25 AM
Morning Phil,
Okay, well I assume your membership to the Ellis Island stuff must exceed mine - which is only guest status. I have put in every variation of the name and still come up with a blank.

There are , as you say, quid pro quos regarding any rescue theory and we must always face the cold splash of reality.  However, there remains a lot unsaid about the events in Ekaterinburg.  Why no photographs?  What was Preston up to?  Why so many mining engineers descending on Ekaterinburg at exactly the right time?  Can we accept the Yurovsky protocol - especially about burining two of the family? 

Whether we face it or not we live in a world of conspiracy.  A cover up society and that leads us to question - that is healthy.

Remeber it was the Marlborough that rescued dozens of the IF?   Remember the US attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran?  The attempts to rescue Mary Queen of Scots?

Rescues are a tradition and there is good reason to believe that something was being done for the IF.  Lied for example.   I see nothing in the literature that says there was absolutely nothing attempted.

So, we need to piece things together and graze our knees in the process - after all the higher powers hold all the cards - records, documents etc and do so in order to give history a particular hue. 

I don't know whether any of the family escaped or not but I am with those who want to run with it for a while and see what comes up.  For example as a direct result of Occleshaw's books, and I am a fan of them, I came across a post card of the Corsican ( the ship Lindsay etc were on) and it is from the same period e.g. 1920 ish.  On the back there is a pencil message in what I think may be Russian. It has been scribbled out in a deliberate attempt to obliterate the message and writing.  Okay so what's so interesting?  Well it is just this - the name Hauke is still readable and the date 18 9 1921.  The card coul have been acquired earlier and written on later.

I do not know where to go with this inquiry but I do know it is an interesting co incidence that it ties in loosely with Occleshaw.

Re the Bristol Fighter idea.  Well an aero plane is reported as having been seen over Ekaterinburg just as in the Vietnam War Britich aeroplanes were seen over the Mekong Delta but are the British likely to come clean on either issue - answer that one yourself. 

In essence the British are extremely good at covert stuff and in 1918 they had the men to do the job.  I think there is something in the idea that an attempt might have been made but it was bungled and this precipitated the murder of the family - but proving it against the establishment will be a steep hill to climb.


All the best,

Tranwell.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on November 10, 2006, 05:44:10 AM
Tranwell

I refer you to the article in the Sunday Times of Oct 15th 2006 (AGRBear and Ra Ra Rasputin have put links to this article elsewhere on the board).

Having had an absolutely tiny part in verifying some of the information to be presented in the forthcoming TV programme and having seen a very small part of the information Andrew Cook has gathered I think some very interesting stuff is about to be forthcoming.  I am not expecting a sudden revelation that a rescue was attempted (but I might be wrong as Alley is reputed to have claimed that he knew 2 of the children escaped) but certainly plans were being drawn up by some very professional secret service men.  A book will follow at some point next year.

I must point out that the Sunday Times story was unauthorised and not all its claims about the programme are accurate.

I'm interested in the Occleshaw book in part because of the man Nigel Watson who he met and interviewed.  Watson had various connections into the White Russian colony in London c1919 and was probably an SIS man in Constantinople in the early 1920's.  He was certainly an MI5 officer in the late 1920's and 1930's and kept an eye on various prominent White Russian suspects for them.

Phil Tomaselli 
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on November 11, 2006, 05:59:26 AM
Phil,

Yes, Watson and Huntington are certainly enigmas.  I have had a look on the net to see what I could find but drew a blank.  There was a history of the 3rd King's Own Hussars on Ebay but  it got away.  From the write up it seems the 3Rd became the 3rd Queens Hussars but I doubt that Watson or Huntington were mentioned.
Alley and Groves are interesting since they leak out just enough to keep us guessing.  The one very small item which escapes most people's notice and which interests me immensely is contained in the British  diplomat, forgot his name for the minute, who on reporting on the events in Ekaterinburg pencilled in the margin next to an entry concerning a 'commotion' in the early hours of 17th July the name 'Jones.'  Now I have tried to follow this up with the Foreign Office through my local MP but they even ignore him - and he has referred them to the question at least three  times.   
Now my theory centres on this man - Captain C.S. Digby - Jones and his involvement.   Occleshaw places him in Ekatereinburg at exactly the right time with a Captain Pablenko of the White Army.  Okay this is pure speculation I know but what if they tried a snatch. Not with the intention of getting them all away but just whatever they could at the time?   
Digby- Jones died in Russia a few months later according to the Army - of typhus.  But what if it was Nagant typhus?  There is mention in Occleshaw of Preston being called in to 'witness' what had happened on behalf of the international community - but why him?  Could it have been to identify Digby-Jones?   That seems more plausible to me.
Have you or anyone else tried to get hold of the full version of 'Rescuing the Czar' by William McGarry?  It goes under the name Smyth but it was definitely written by McGarry.

All the best,

Tranwell.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on November 11, 2006, 07:32:52 PM
Rescuing the Tsar

http://www.fullbooks.com/Rescuing-the-Czar.html

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on November 11, 2006, 08:19:24 PM
Tranwell

I refer you to the article in the Sunday Times of Oct 15th 2006 (AGRBear and Ra Ra Rasputin have put links to this article elsewhere on the board).

Having had an absolutely tiny part in verifying some of the information to be presented in the forthcoming TV programme and having seen a very small part of the information Andrew Cook has gathered I think some very interesting stuff is about to be forthcoming.  I am not expecting a sudden revelation that a rescue was attempted (but I might be wrong as Alley is reputed to have claimed that he knew 2 of the children escaped) but certainly plans were being drawn up by some very professional secret service men.  A book will follow at some point next year.

I must point out that the Sunday Times story was unauthorised and not all its claims about the programme are accurate.

I'm interested in the Occleshaw book in part because of the man Nigel Watson who he met and interviewed.  Watson had various connections into the White Russian colony in London c1919 and was probably an SIS man in Constantinople in the early 1920's.  He was certainly an MI5 officer in the late 1920's and 1930's and kept an eye on various prominent White Russian suspects for them.

Phil Tomaselli 

See Romanov's Russia for the article:

http://agrbear.hyperboards.com/index.php?action=view_topic&topic_id=129

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on November 13, 2006, 03:48:04 AM
Tranwell

I'm afraid that Occleshaw didn't do too good a job in seeking out papers relating to Digby-Jones as there are plenty at the National Archives if you know where to look.  His army service record has also been released (subsequent to "The Romanov Conspiracies") and everything points to his being sent to Ekaterinberg to liaise with the Czechs.  He certainly met up with them after their capture of Ekaterinberg so can't have been shot during the massacre of the family, which you seem to have been suggesting.  Another researcher who has looked at this for Shay McNeal has suggested to me that the typhus was actually cirrhosis brought on by alcohol abuse but quite where he got that from I'm not sure.  Digby-Jones (referred to as Jones) gets a couple of mentions in Preston's book so his presence can't have been too secret.

One thing that might be useful would be for the papers of other Consular officials at Ekaterinberg to be located.  Preston was senior Consul, but there were others, French, Swedish and American at least but of course their papers aren't at TNA.

all the best

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 13, 2006, 07:50:54 PM
Phil,

Yes, Watson and Huntington are certainly enigmas.  I have had a look on the net to see what I could find but drew a blank.  There was a history of the 3rd King's Own Hussars on Ebay but  it got away.  From the write up it seems the 3Rd became the 3rd Queens Hussars but I doubt that Watson or Huntington were mentioned.
Alley and Groves are interesting since they leak out just enough to keep us guessing.  The one very small item which escapes most people's notice and which interests me immensely is contained in the British  diplomat, forgot his name for the minute, who on reporting on the events in Ekaterinburg pencilled in the margin next to an entry concerning a 'commotion' in the early hours of 17th July the name 'Jones.'  Now I have tried to follow this up with the Foreign Office through my local MP but they even ignore him - and he has referred them to the question at least three  times.   
Now my theory centres on this man - Captain C.S. Digby - Jones and his involvement.   Occleshaw places him in Ekatereinburg at exactly the right time with a Captain Pablenko of the White Army.  Okay this is pure speculation I know but what if they tried a snatch. Not with the intention of getting them all away but just whatever they could at the time?   
Digby- Jones died in Russia a few months later according to the Army - of typhus.  But what if it was Nagant typhus?  There is mention in Occleshaw of Preston being called in to 'witness' what had happened on behalf of the international community - but why him?  Could it have been to identify Digby-Jones?   That seems more plausible to me.
Have you or anyone else tried to get hold of the full version of 'Rescuing the Czar' by William McGarry?  It goes under the name Smyth but it was definitely written by McGarry.

All the best,

Tranwell.

Yes. I have a xeroxed copy of that book and it does not have a U.S. copyright. So I would be happy to post it here, with the permission of the FA or send copies to those who are interested.
Lexi
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on November 16, 2006, 04:13:29 AM
Thank you to AGBear for the link to book:  Rescuing the Czar.  Also  to Lexi4 for the offer of zerox copy.  I now have access to the whole script for the first time.

What strikes me most about this script is just how good a novel, perhaps in the style of Buchan, would derive from it.  Okay then I'll do it!

Second, this is McGarry okay.    Who else would be art historian, linguist, classical scholar and courtier all in one - and with that special American connection.  Yup, this guy does run pretty wild with the idea of an escape - perhaps the next James Bond movie?

Now the interesting bits:

Well the amount of circumstantial detail is amazing.   He must have been to the Ipatiev House and I suspect he was well immersed in the personalities  holding forth on different points at the time.  The tunnel idea does tie in with the mining engineers but when the site was excavated for the Cathedral of the Holy Blood there did not appear any sight of one.

So just what had McGarry got in mind?  Was he 'plotting' for a novel?   Are there hidden codes suspended in the allusions?  Was it an aide memoir?   Was he alluding to something else - a matter of conscience - removal of family jewels etc?  Was it just a prank?

Now of course there is one way to settle the matter once and for all isn't there?    Does anyone have the actual diaries?   (I doubt it!)

The acid test is I think the fact that the I. F. disappeared so completely - notwithstanding the cranks!  If they did escape as a whole then surely other more recent records and diaries would have surfaced - so, no, the sensible response is that McGarry was up to something else. 

I do not rule out a single escape, maybe two, since the 'centre of gravity' reasoning tilts that way - Alley, Groves, Bibikov et al.  but the whole family/  Hmnnnnnnnnnnn!

Unlike many though I find the story fascinating and I've always had a taste for the mystereious.

Thanks again


Tranwell.

 
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on November 16, 2006, 02:42:55 PM
Tranwell

I'm afraid In rather suspect that the circumstantial detail is derived  from newspaper reports by journalists such as Ackerman, and there seems to be a lot of using of common Russian names, rather as if a foreigner chose to write about a group of Englishmen and called them Smith, Jones, Brown and Green.  He'd be bound to hit on a few people with those names connected with almost any enterprise.

Still, "Rescuing" remains the only book to make me laugh out loud in the British Library reading room.

Phil T
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on November 17, 2006, 06:39:52 PM
The best book to read in reguards to Rescuing the Tsar is Shay McNeals book  PLOTS TO SAVE THE TSAR.  McNeal  apparently agrees with you that there is more to Rescuing the Tsar than just someone who wanted to write pure fiction.

It may prove that the author wasn't knowledgeable about the ex-Tsarvich Alexis health in late June and early July and so the actions the author has  Alexsis doing in the book Rescuing the Tsar may be what Phil finds humorous.  Phil?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on November 22, 2006, 03:59:43 AM
Phil,
Yes, I follow what you are saying and agree that there were a lot of rumours and news items, many of which were little more than speculation, going around at the time and MacGarry may well have been over reliant on them.  I also take your earlier point about Digby-Jones who as the reports say died of cirrosis which may have been a complication of typhus.  Also his death being reported much later than the supposed demise of the IF.  Still if the SIS can go to great lengths to mount a rescue then I am sure it is well within their capabilities to fabricate whatever records they need to present an interpretation to the public.
Did you ever see the programme which alleged that Rasputin was given the coup de grace by a British agent?  When it comes down to the standard means, motivation and opportunity tests I think there is plenty of scope for speculation in both cases.

Now can I ask what your take is on the Syvorotka diary.   Unlike the Fox diary i find it plausible and grounded in the trivial human minutiae that people often include in diary accounts.  The ending puzzles me though. There is an old saying that the more truth you tell in a lie the more it seems like the truth.  Now there is a lot of truth in the Syvorotka rendition and his account of the final night has a ring of truth about it that does not contradict other accounts even the Yurovsky protocol if you go with that as the final word on the matter.  However, the part that I find intriguing is the part about the two Red Guards that were apparently killed in the Syvorotka account and the diarist's insistence that they were the only killings that took place at Ipatiev.  He was adamant on this point.  So, either the IF were not killed as Yurovsky has testified or they were taken elsewhere and killed - or even 'rescued.'  In either case the Syvorotka account is evidence that all was not as history would have us believe.

All the best,

Tranwell
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on November 23, 2006, 01:49:20 AM
Just a point of clarification on last post.

The insistence on only two killings of guards was in the codicil to Syvorotka's diary and not his own personal testimony.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 23, 2006, 09:55:33 AM
Phil,
Yes, I follow what you are saying and agree that there were a lot of rumours and news items, many of which were little more than speculation, going around at the time and MacGarry may well have been over reliant on them.  I also take your earlier point about Digby-Jones who as the reports say died of cirrosis which may have been a complication of typhus.  Also his death being reported much later than the supposed demise of the IF.  Still if the SIS can go to great lengths to mount a rescue then I am sure it is well within their capabilities to fabricate whatever records they need to present an interpretation to the public.
Did you ever see the programme which alleged that Rasputin was given the coup de grace by a British agent?  When it comes down to the standard means, motivation and opportunity tests I think there is plenty of scope for speculation in both cases.

Now can I ask what your take is on the Syvorotka diary.   Unlike the Fox diary i find it plausible and grounded in the trivial human minutiae that people often include in diary accounts.  The ending puzzles me though. There is an old saying that the more truth you tell in a lie the more it seems like the truth.  Now there is a lot of truth in the Syvorotka rendition and his account of the final night has a ring of truth about it that does not contradict other accounts even the Yurovsky protocol if you go with that as the final word on the matter.  However, the part that I find intriguing is the part about the two Red Guards that were apparently killed in the Syvorotka account and the diarist's insistence that they were the only killings that took place at Ipatiev.  He was adamant on this point.  So, either the IF were not killed as Yurovsky has testified or they were taken elsewhere and killed - or even 'rescued.'  In either case the Syvorotka account is evidence that all was not as history would have us believe.

All the best,

Tranwell


Lordtranwell,
I have not read  the Syvorotka diary. Do you know how I can get my hands on a copy?
Thanks,
Lexi
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on November 23, 2006, 02:03:35 PM
Bear/Tranwell/Lexi

Looking back, and having consulted my copy of "Rescuing" I now recall that the part of the whole book that made me laugh out loud is (p248 my copy) the detailed description, in the Syvorotka diary, of Nicholas and Alexandra leaving Tobolsk by steamer, leaving all 4 girls behind........................

Utterly at variance with the accepted facts and also done in front of "a crowd of people", not one of whom ever came forward to say that they saw the event.  Keen as I am go give anyone who questions the accepted version a hearing I have to say that this was the one thing that convinced me that the book is utter hogwash.  The rest of the book is at least questionable, if not pure melodrama.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on November 23, 2006, 05:10:54 PM
Bear/Tranwell/Lexi

Looking back, and having consulted my copy of "Rescuing" I now recall that the part of the whole book that made me laugh out loud is (p248 my copy) the detailed description, in the Syvorotka diary, of Nicholas and Alexandra leaving Tobolsk by steamer, leaving all 4 girls behind........................

Utterly at variance with the accepted facts and also done in front of "a crowd of people", not one of whom ever came forward to say that they saw the event.  Keen as I am go give anyone who questions the accepted version a hearing I have to say that this was the one thing that convinced me that the book is utter hogwash.  The rest of the book is at least questionable, if not pure melodrama.

Phil Tomaselli

Now I would call that high drama. I haven't read rescuing yet. It is next. I just recently got a xeroxed copy.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on December 28, 2006, 03:04:56 AM
Good point about the patronym.   I suppose we tend to see it only within the Romanovs because that is what we have been reading.  However, if a child was born outside marriage i.e. of a mistress - and there were plenty of those - then might it not have been an attempt to redress an injustice?  I feel sure that Larissa / Owen wanted to emphasise this for some reason.  If the pork butcher tale was true then should it have been Larissa Adolph.....?
I think we can deduce that at least she may have been of Russian descent..... why the bold assertion on the tombstone?  The 3rd Hussars have ditched Owen and yet here we see him boldly linking her to his regiment.  I do take your words of caution but for me the evidence of the tombstone itself is compelling.....there is a lot more to this wonderful couple that we know.
On another point.... the photograph of the girl who may have been Tatiana - in Occleshaw - and reproduced earlier in this discussion has been ringed.  But has any one esle noted that there is a feint ring around another girl in that photograph?  In my copy there is certainly a second girl ringed - so do we know which one is the Tatiana candidate?
Christmas wishes to all.

Tranwell
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on December 30, 2006, 02:12:33 PM
Phil or Lordtranwell,
Could either of you tell me how to get more information about the  Syvorotka diary?
Thank you.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on January 01, 2007, 05:17:03 AM
Hi,
Yes, please look back to an earlier message on this topic and you will see a link to web site where the diary can be found as part of the 'Rescuing the Czar' McGarry / Smyth document.  If you still can't find it I have a copy printed - but you should have no trouble getting the web site - courtesy of Lexi I think.
All the best,
Tranwell
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on January 01, 2007, 08:29:34 AM
Hi!
Happy New Year!
I found the link fine. Thank you. Owen and Larissa were indeed mysterious and I would certainly like to learn more. It is interesting to me that, prior to marrying Larrisa, Owen was flat broke. Yet, as a couple, they lived well. I wonder where they got their income? The tombstone has me curious as well.
Lots of questions, I wonder if we will ever have answers.
Lexi
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on January 02, 2007, 02:34:28 AM
Can we stop knocking Occleshaw?
I don't think anyone else has provided as much pertinent discussion material as Occleshaw and I think he would be the first to accept that his theories need revision in the light of more recent discoveries.  I am sure he is quite right when he protests at the contempt the British Government has for genuine scholarship and their downright obstruction in allowing full disclosure of all they shouls disclose.  Mangold and Summers made the same point and my own attempts to get the Foreign Office to release papers, through my M.P., support this 'obfuscation'  attempt.  If the government stop 'weeding' then we can get to the bottom of this matter sooner. 
'No Resting Place for a Romanov,'   the highly derivative spin off of Occleshaw's book / s  mentions that Larissa's grave was disturbed at the time of the IF's internment at the Peter and Paul Cathedral so would exhumation prove anything?  Is it possible  that the remains of Larissa have already been replaced with other remains?  If the government would stop vasscilating and let us have all they have got then I am sure we would stop being conspiracy theorists but all the time things are being done which for my money suggest something is being covered up and I want to lknow what!

Just a note on the many contributions and different opinions I read on this site: I think it is great to read so many different points of view which are all treated in a scholastic manner and respected as valuable contributions to the debate.

Tranwell
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on January 02, 2007, 04:11:08 AM
Has there been a post deleted here?  Suddenly Occleshaw is being defended against an accusation I can't see being made recently, if at all.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lordtranwell on January 03, 2007, 04:13:24 AM
Hello Phil,
Whoops!   I contribute to several parts of this site and sometimes I just think Occleshaw gets bad press.  Nothing missiing I think - just me putting a general comment on a particular discussion.

All the best,

Tranwell.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on January 15, 2007, 03:00:39 PM
On revisiting certain files that Occleshaw quoted in his book I was delighted to discover an official note in file  WO 106/1237 stating that "A copy of document serial 799 missing from this piece - reference NR 1042 dated 9 February 1919, From Colonel Blair Vladivostock to War Office re Murder of Royal family has been located in FO 371/3977" dated 22 July 1994.  Another missing document located................................

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on January 15, 2007, 08:13:19 PM
Phil,
Did you see the actual document?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on January 16, 2007, 02:26:57 AM
No, I haven't yet seen the document but, given I've located others he says were missing I don't doubt it's there.  Next time at the National Archives I'll endeavour to dig it out.

Phil T
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on January 17, 2007, 06:03:36 PM
I wonder why he would say those files were missing. I can only come up with a couple of explanations:
1. He didn't look real well.
2. They were missing when he looked.
3. High drama.
Lexi
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on January 18, 2007, 05:39:57 AM
There are several explanations.  Some of the documents are missing from the files in which he looked BUT duplicates exist in other files - HMG, like any bureacracy, copied in all and sundry so a telegram missing in a War Office file can turn up in a Foreign Office one.  Sometimes I suspect he didn't look too well or misunderstood the original reference so looked in the wrong place (you have to convert the old Foreign Office reference to a new National Archive one to get the original document and it's easy to make a mistake).  Sometimes he just doesn't look hard enough he says that there is verly little material from Thomas Presto, Ekaterinberg Consul, n in the files - in fact there's quite a lot of material, some of findable under "Platinum" because Preston was tasked by the War Office to keep an eye on Russian platinum mining.

Presumably also Preston burned a lot of documents (you do this automatically in a consulate in a war zone I assume).

Sometimes I think he just doesn't understand what he's looking at.  He has a new book out "Dances in Deep Shadows" in which there are a couple of real schoolboy howlers, but I won't bore you with theses as they aren't pertinent to the thread.

Phil T
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: AGRBear on January 18, 2007, 11:11:44 AM
When doing research,  I am contantly at a lost as to the logic behind some of the methods used in placing articles and information under titles.  Like Phil said:

Quote
... he says that there is verly little material from Thomas Presto, Ekaterinberg Consul, n in the files - in fact there's quite a lot of material, some of findable under "Platinum" because Preston was tasked by the War Office to keep an eye on Russian platinum mining. 

I am not making any kind of declaration that I have a better file system.  Looking at the piles of suff on my desk tells otherwise.  That's why someone invented computers.....  Ug,  another failure on my part because I didn't and continue not to  take the time to list each topic in the articles I have or will  save....    Most  articles or data  [reports, etc.]  deal with a number of topics and the person placing the data so where does one place it in the huge archives?  Under "A"  or  "D" ....?   

I have no idea how hard  Occleshaw looked for information.  Or if on those particular days the information wasn't there...  Sometimes that just happens. 

Sometimes,  in the middle of the night,  I'll wake up and realize I've been looking in all the wrong places and am feeling a little foolish for having missed the obvious.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on January 18, 2007, 06:15:43 PM
Thank you Phil & Bear. That put it in perspective for me. Once I thought about it and read you posts, I realized how difficult it can be to find information unless you really know where to look. It would not have entered my head to look under platinum.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on January 19, 2007, 03:00:21 AM
The joys of serendipity!  It never occurred to me to look for Ekaterinberg material under Platinum, I just stumbled across some index cards on the subject and remembered that Preston mentioned it somewhere.  You have to try and get into the mind set of the people compiling the records and why they might index them the way they did.

An even bigger problem comes with sorting and indexing your own research.  I have a filing cabinet full of files marked "Ekaterinberg Consulate", "Rasputin", "British Intelligence Mission", "Naval Intelligence", "Captain Cromie's Organisation", "Murmansk Military Intelligence", "RAF in N Russia", "MI5", "SIS in Russia 1919", "Finland" etc.  As one discovered document can cross several files it can be a nightmare (a) deciding which file to put it in and (b) cross referencing it with the others.  I've now moved to digital imaging but this only makes it worse..............

Phil T
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on January 31, 2007, 04:26:13 AM
Here is the text of the "missing" document as located in FO 371/3977A:



From: -               Col Blair, Vladivostock
To:-               War Office

                  Despatched: 15.45 9.2.19
                  Received 16.00 10.2.19

N.R.  1042  Feb 9th

         Following dated Feb 5th Received from General Knox


      It is shown by aditional evidence regarding the murder of the Imperial Family at Ekaterinburg that in the local Sovyet there are two parties, one wishing to save the family and the other headed by 5 Jews, of whom two Safarov and Vainen, determined on the murder, had accompanied Lenin on his journey across Germany.  The Central Sovyet at Moscow wished to send the family to Nesvij in ?West/WhiteRussia.  Between the 8th and 12th the Russian Guard on the house wasremoved, the pretext being that they had stolen 79,000 roubles.  A house guard of 13 men, viz. 3 Jews, Yurovski, Zaipoint and one other and 10 Letts replaced them,.  A criminal called Medvedyev who had been convicted in 1905 of a murder and arson and in 1911 of outraging a girl of five commanded the guard outside the house.  At 2 a.m. prompt the prisoners were awakened and toldto preparefor a journey.  An hour later they were called down to the lower room.  The sentence of theSovyet ending with the words “And so your life has come to and end” was read out by Yurovsky.  The Emperor said “I am ready”.  It is stated by an eyewitness who hassince died that theEmpressand her two elsest daughters made the sign of the cross.  The two younger Grand Duchesses fainted.  .  The man Mevyedev and the house guard carried out the massacre with revolvers.  In addition to the seven members of the Imperial family, in this room were murdered the Doctor Botkin, the cook, the valet and the maid.  The cook’s nephew, a boy of 14 was spared.  The bodies were thrown down the shaft of a coal mine.  Orders were sent to Apalaevsk the same morning to murder the party there and this was carried out by theRussians.

      Some eight tons of personal belongings of the family are being sent down to Vladivisotock.  Some of these things are of great national as well as material value.  On the body of the Grand Duchess Elizabeth for instance, was found the Holy Picture before which the Emperor prayed when about to abdicate.  This is stdded with precius stones and is valuedat several hundred thousand roubles.  Admiral K. said that if possible he would like them for greater security to be placed on board theKent.

02. Copies to :- M I 1a
MI1a copies to:-    CIGS
         DMI
         MIR & b & a
         MI6 b & L
         DMC
         MO5 a & b
         MOX
         FO
         DCIGS
         MI1 & a

 Please note that the MI6 noted as being copied in is not the MI6 we know today (which was then known as MI1c).

The file that accompanies this file, FO 371/3977B contains a (presumably much abridged) version of the Sokolov investigation given to the National Archive from "an official source" in 1958.  Interesting to see some of the photographs "in the flesh" as it were.

I must have looked at this years ago without appreciating the significance but nice to revisit.

Phil Tomaselli
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on January 31, 2007, 07:08:23 PM
Thank you Phil. That was interesting.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Belochka on January 31, 2007, 08:53:37 PM
... The sentence of theSovyet ending with the words “And so your life has come to and end” was read out by Yurovsky.  The Emperor said “I am ready”. 

... In addition to the seven members of the Imperial family, in this room were murdered the Doctor Botkin, the cook, the valet and the maid.  The cook’s nephew, a boy of 14 was spared.  The bodies were thrown down the shaft of a coal mine. 

Phil Tomaselli

Hi Phil,

Many thanks for posting this document.  :)

The two items that I have extracted from that document provide significant information. The first offers a completely different understanding as to what Nikolai's final words may have been. To state "I am ready" rather than the more familiar "What?" places his last moments in a new light if the accuracy of the eyewitness's deposition is to be believed on this point.

Furthermore the first extract does not identify Yurovsky as being Nikolai's assassin which is perplexing.

From the second extract - it is clear that the unnamed eyewitness stated that all the I. F. were murdered and that no one left that room alive except the murderers.

Margarita
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Phil_tomaselli on February 02, 2007, 03:40:22 AM
It is an interesting document, if only because it shows that the British Military Mission were keeping a close eye on the murder investigation.  It would be interesting to know whether this information came from Sokolov or from one of the other investigations.  Knox, though he spoke fluent Russian, having been Military Attache at Petrograd, was naturally inclined to believe what the military told him rather than any civilian, however competent and informed.

I've tried checking the two Bolsheviks mentioned, Safarov & Vainen, but while there's plenty of confirmation that Safarov crossed Germany with Lenin andwas connected to theEkaterinberg Soviet I can find no mention of Vainen in any of the reference books I've checked.  Does anyone know if he existed?

Phil T

Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Belochka on February 02, 2007, 05:44:09 AM
It is an interesting document, if only because it shows that the British Military Mission were keeping a close eye on the murder investigation.  It would be interesting to know whether this information came from Sokolov or from one of the other investigations.  Knox, though he spoke fluent Russian, having been Military Attache at Petrograd, was naturally inclined to believe what the military told him rather than any civilian, however competent and informed.

I've tried checking the two Bolsheviks mentioned, Safarov & Vainen, but while there's plenty of confirmation that Safarov crossed Germany with Lenin andwas connected to theEkaterinberg Soviet I can find no mention of Vainen in any of the reference books I've checked.  Does anyone know if he existed?

Phil T

Frankly I am not surprised that the British were keen observers of these particular events.

I will see what I can find out about Vainen and perhaps one of will be successful?

Margarita  :)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on February 03, 2007, 07:12:38 PM
... The sentence of theSovyet ending with the words “And so your life has come to and end” was read out by Yurovsky.  The Emperor said “I am ready”. 

... In addition to the seven members of the Imperial family, in this room were murdered the Doctor Botkin, the cook, the valet and the maid.  The cook’s nephew, a boy of 14 was spared.  The bodies were thrown down the shaft of a coal mine. 

Phil Tomaselli

Hi Phil,

Many thanks for posting this document.  :)

The two items that I have extracted from that document provide significant information. The first offers a completely different understanding as to what Nikolai's final words may have been. To state "I am ready" rather than the more familiar "What?" places his last moments in a new light if the accuracy of the eyewitness's deposition is to be believed on this point.

Furthermore the first extract does not identify Yurovsky as being Nikolai's assassin which is perplexing.

From the second extract - it is clear that the unnamed eyewitness stated that all the I. F. were murdered and that no one left that room alive except the murderers.

Margarita


I noticed that Nicholas's last words were different as well. They are not consistent with other accounts, which I find curious.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Belochka on February 03, 2007, 08:03:09 PM
... The sentence of theSovyet ending with the words “And so your life has come to and end” was read out by Yurovsky.  The Emperor said “I am ready”. 

Phil Tomaselli


The two items that I have extracted from that document provide significant information. The first offers a completely different understanding as to what Nikolai's final words may have been. To state "I am ready" rather than the more familiar "What?" places his last moments in a new light if the accuracy of the eyewitness's deposition is to be believed on this point.

Furthermore the first extract does not identify Yurovsky as being Nikolai's assassin which is perplexing.

Margarita

I noticed that Nicholas's last words were different as well. They are not consistent with other accounts, which I find curious.

Which goes down to the credibility of this early English communication vs. the alleged latter account given by Yurovsky to Pokrovsky.

I am surprised that no one else has questioned this anomaly.

Margarita
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: lexi4 on February 04, 2007, 11:04:01 AM



A question then, which do you find more credible? Early English communication or the Yurovsky account. I always have it in my mind, that Yurovsky was also a braggart and was probably proud of his actions. So I figure there was a little embellishment. The interesting thing is, that should it be determined that the English account is more credible, it gives us a different perspective on the last few moments of the life of Nicholas. I have no idea which account is accurate and realize there is no way to know. However, it makes for interesting discussion.
Lexi
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: gemellibru on April 19, 2009, 05:38:54 AM
Does someone of you have a photo of Michelle Anches? I don't know a lot of respect to this claimant... Would you know how to furnish me a photo and her biography? Thanks...
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 20, 2009, 01:29:40 AM
Does someone of you have a photo of Michelle Anches? I don't know a lot of respect to this claimant... Would you know how to furnish me a photo and her biography? Thanks...

http://romanov.wifeo.com/autres-usurpations.php

You might try google - I got the above link in a couple of seconds. It has a photo of her.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Maria Romanova on May 08, 2009, 07:37:03 AM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/thumb/3/3c/Michell067965859550505-2-.jpg/350px-Michell067965859550505-2-.jpg)   Michelle Anches... :)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Olga Maria on May 13, 2009, 08:02:11 PM
she looks like Tatiana in that photo but still she's not her. (",)
thanks for the photo .
That maybe taken on 1920's, isn't it?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Maria Romanova on May 19, 2009, 04:04:52 AM
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58/tatianabettergirl/Tatiana.jpg)   Michelle Anches :)
This is another photo of Michelle Anches... I am convinced more and more that it resembles indeed very to the granduchess Tatiana Romanova. I know well that is NOT her! But must admit that the similarity is perfect! And then, poor girl, has been killed by someone because they believed that was the true granduchess! by Tatiana Romanov  
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Maria Romanova on June 29, 2009, 05:00:06 AM
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58/tatianabettergirl/TatianaRomanova.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Mimě on September 07, 2009, 10:23:44 AM
I'm reporting simply what I read on a book:
In 1948 a baron named Werner von Biel told the reporter George Herald that Tatiana was alive, under the false name of Katharina Lumpesaite and worked as a nurse in a refugee camp in the area of Germany still occupied by the English. In fact, when Herald saw the woman, she was quite similar to the Grand Duchess, but she firmly refused his interwiew saying that her father was a simple peasant from Lituania.
Until here nothing strange, it was not the first time, but then something very curious happened. He showed her a series of documents which should testify of Tatiana's escape, and suddenly the nurse got pale, unable to say one word then shouted more or less: "Leave me in peace! I'm fully satisfied with my job, I have learnt to earn my living. I'm glad now, and I don't want to suffer any longer!"
Then she kept doing her job ignoring all the insinuations about her, which in fact ceased after a while as it was not easy to make a scoop with such a reaction...
Was it true? God only knows. But surely if someone came to me and told me I'm a survivor of an imperial family, I would laugh or think he's bad: this frightened reaction is very strange for one who is totally extraneous to the facts, don't you think?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: LisaDavidson on September 07, 2009, 01:40:21 PM
I'm reporting simply what I read on a book:
In 1948 a baron named Werner von Biel told the reporter George Herald that Tatiana was alive, under the false name of Katharina Lumpesaite and worked as a nurse in a refugee camp in the area of Germany still occupied by the English. In fact, when Herald saw the woman, she was quite similar to the Grand Duchess, but she firmly refused his interwiew saying that her father was a simple peasant from Lituania.
Until here nothing strange, it was not the first time, but then something very curious happened. He showed her a series of documents which should testify of Tatiana's escape, and suddenly the nurse got pale, unable to say one word then shouted more or less: "Leave me in peace! I'm fully satisfied with my job, I have learnt to earn my living. I'm glad now, and I don't want to suffer any longer!"
Then she kept doing her job ignoring all the insinuations about her, which in fact ceased after a while as it was not easy to make a scoop with such a reaction...
Was it true? God only knows. But surely if someone came to me and told me I'm a survivor of an imperial family, I would laugh or think he's bad: this frightened reaction is very strange for one who is totally extraneous to the facts, don't you think?

Not really. Your reaction would come when you were likely in a secure place with no worries about your safety. The woman was in a refugee camp and was trying to keep her job and not arouse attention about her. Based upon what she first said she was clear - she was a refugee who had learned how to work and wanted to be left in peace. This makes perfect sense to me that persistent attention frightened her and she wanted to be left alone. No big mystery here.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on May 18, 2010, 04:15:14 PM
I find these threads interesting to read, especially now that DNA testing has totally debunked all the claimants. 

In my opinion, I think one reasons these claimants were so easily accepted is because, for the most part, people like a happy ending (if seeing your whole family slaughtered while you alone survived could be considered happy, that is).  The thought that one of the GD's, or Alexei, had somehow beat the odds and made it was a nice, wishful thought.  When I was a kid, I loved DC Comics, I always knew that no matter how much trouble Lois Lane was in, Superman would always show up at the last minute and save the day.  A happy ending.

Sadly, it didn't happen like that with the Romanov's.  Science has proven that there was no happy ending for any of them.  Tragic, but true.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Lady Nikolaievna on July 22, 2010, 08:37:50 PM
Michelle Anches is the only claimant I know that really looks like one of the Romanov children.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Nadeshda74 on September 18, 2010, 11:09:43 AM
Does anyone know who has killed Michelle Anches? Or was that case never solved? I ve heard she was on the way to Denmark to meet the Dowager Empress.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 16, 2012, 03:24:07 PM
Amazing topic and while useful at being read with the thread of claimants too!! Many stories were unknown to me and thank you for the photographs!!
I was recently reading an odd -for not saying non sense- article on a Spanish newspaper online that said that the four Grand Duchesses and the Tsarina escaped, they identified Tatiana as a nun, here a translation of the fragment that says this:

 "...Tatiana, the second daughter of the Tsar, died during the first months of World War II (1939 or 1940), in a nunnery Ukrainian Catholic Basilian order in Poland, under the protection of Metropolitan of Lviv, Archbishop Andrei Szeptycki (predecessor of today Josyf Slipyj Cardinal, who said several family members have been aware of the issue)".

They identified also the other Grand Duchesses as well known impostors as AA, C. Czapska and Magda Boots... my question is if anyone know more about this "alleged Tatiana"?
The story of Michelle Anches is a mysterious one, I wonder who was really her and who killed her :-?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on February 28, 2012, 11:25:29 AM
The only thing I have found regarding Michelle Anches was that researchers believed she was killed by Bolsheviks, because they believed she was Tatiana, but I have found nothing more. Her story is really very mysterious, I do agree. There is little information on her.

As for the Nun story, I tried to find information on that and found nothing, maybe someone else knows something?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 28, 2012, 12:54:16 PM
Thank you Jen!!  :D
I found the next photo of Michelle Anches that isn't on this thread, seems that the photo was raken at the same time of the first one, only that here we see her face in other position, I wonder if it's the full verssion or only a close up. Sorry for the bad quality
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Old%20Days/MichelleAnches2.jpg)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on February 28, 2012, 03:46:57 PM
You are welcome!

I've only seen that photo in that size, so maybe a full version? I do not know....hmmm?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 08, 2012, 03:14:14 PM
(http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt58/tatianabettergirl/TatianaRomanova.jpg)

By the way, any information about the next three claimants, they're unknown to me:
1) Sinhtovna Romanova
2)Granny Elviryha
3) Tatiana Cirtlyis Romanova
I haven't seen nothing about them before and I've tried to search something for a few days  but nothing, nothing, nothing appears  :(

I expect to see one day a photo of Alexandra Michaelis, another "alleged Tatiana".
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 08, 2012, 03:42:54 PM
I've tried searching those names too, but nothing has come up unfortunately. In that claimants photo you posted, it is creep how much Michelle looks like Tatiana in that photo. Very creepy.

As far as I know, there are no photos of Alexandra, I just tried doing a thorough search and nothing has come up sadly. :(
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 09, 2012, 12:11:42 PM
I've tried searching those names too, but nothing has come up unfortunately. In that claimants photo you posted, it is creep how much Michelle looks like Tatiana in that photo. Very creepy.

As far as I know, there are no photos of Alexandra, I just tried doing a thorough search and nothing has come up sadly. :(

Thank you for your attempt! I think that there aren't much to say about those three women, in fact they were unknown to me. There were too much "dark" claimants that  vanished as fast as they appeared, there's just a little information about them farer than their claim (if there really is)  :(
I second this, at seeing all the faces of the "Tatianas", Anches is the one who resembles her more among all these women, creepy indeed!!. The photo of Tatia Romani is quite blurry (as the photos of several claimants) but anyways there's not much likeness, that's the same that I think about the photo of the well known Larissa Feodorovna Tudor.
I doubt that there are photos of Alexandra, she always "rejected to be recognized".
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 09, 2012, 04:13:52 PM
As you said, they are the 'dark' claimants, definitely agree with that! Maybe one day information will come out about them, but who knows?

It is such a shame the Larissa 'photo' is blurry, and there are no more photos of her out there. From what I could see of the blurry photo, Larissa did have a sort of resemblance to Tatiana. When I first saw that well known photo of Michelle, I actually thought it was Tatiana until I read it was not!!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on March 10, 2012, 01:25:06 AM
All these "Tatianas"   :D

Of course, they were all phonies, but for a long time there was no real proof that the real Tatiana had been murdered.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 14, 2012, 12:25:53 PM
Another alleged "Tatiana" mentioned before in other thread but in a brief way, there her "story"

According to the Russian article of wikipedia:

Marguerite Lindsay: She appeared at London short before the Russian revolution. It was known that she was once belly dancer at Constantinople. She got married with a man named Lindsay. She never claimed that she was Tatiana but she had a large fortune that caused many rumours among the people. Marguerite herself has never confirmed or denied them.

This doesn't match, according to the les derniers romanovs site. It was said that the "theory" of this alleged "Grand Duchess" was the next:  she was rescued on airplane from Ekaterinburg to Vladivostok, there she was then boarded a ship in Japan into Canada, under the name of Margaret Lindsay, later to join England, where it reached August 8, 1918. About this of she being a belly dancer or being at Constantinople doesn't fit much with her alleged "escape"... or was this a fact of her real life (the real woman not pretending to be TN)?
After her arrival to London at 1918 there was not more trace of this woman until 1939 when she visited her "sisters", "Olga", the well known Magda Boodts, and "Maria", the also well known Ceclava Czapska. A bad point against her I must say! Funny that many imposters "recognized" themselves  ;)

There's something that I don't understand about this person, she is mentioned at the wikipedia biography of Larissa Feodorovna. I don't understand if Occheslaw is suggesting that Marguerite and Larissa are the same person -"Tatiana"- but just changing her "pseudonym"?? In any case is impossible considering that Larissa died at 1926, the other was still alive at late 1930's. Or is just my misunderstanding!   :-[
Sorry, sometimes I get confused with these strange stories!!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on August 22, 2012, 05:00:25 PM
P.T. Barnum said it best:  "There's a sucker born every minute." 

Some people will believe anything, no matter how nuts it seems.  If I announced that my cat, Tatiana, was the reincarnation of the Grand Duchess, there is a chance some would actually believe it
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on August 23, 2012, 03:27:27 PM
What a mad story that sounds! I agree with Tim, people will believe anything.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Neeosine on March 11, 2013, 01:26:48 PM
I would like to bring another claimant: Larissa Fedorovna.
Quote
Larissa Feodorovna Tudor was the wife of Owen Frederick Morton Tudor, an officer of 3rd Battalion of The King's Own Hussars. Following her death, it was rumoured that she was in truth Grand Duchess Tatiana Nikolaevna of Russia, the second daughter of Nicholas II of Russia, and of Tsarina Alexandra.

Following World War I, she met and married her husband. Upon her death at roughly the age of 28 in Lydd, Kent, England, due to pulmonary tuberculosis and spinal caries, she bequeathed to him an unusually large inheritance equivalent to a local resident's yearly earnings. This fact, combined with irregularities in the available information about her, such as the different ages given on her marriage certificate, her tombstone, and her death certificate, the differences in the names given for her, the conflicting stories about her background, Tudor's inexplicable income and return to the 3rd Battalion of The King's Own Hussars and promotion in rank following Larissa's death, and certain physical details, led to speculation by author Michael Occleshaw that she was in reality the Grand Duchess and had escaped the assassination of the Romanovs after the Russian Revolution of 1917.

Larissa married Owen Frederick Morton Tudor, an officer of 3rd Battalion of The King's Own Hussars, in 1923 at the Register Office of St George's, Hanover Square, in London, England. Her marriage certificate listed her address as the York Hotel, Mayfair, and her father as Adolph Haouk. Her age in 1923 was given as 27 on her marriage certificate, though her death certificate in 1926 gave her age as 29 and her tombstone gave her age at death as 28
There is little available information about her nationality or early life. According to the wife of one of Tudor's brother officers, there were two accounts about Larissa's background. One was that she was the daughter of a pork butcher, whom Tudor met when he was posted at Constantinople in 1921. Larissa was said to be a belly-dancer at a night club in Constantinople. A second account of her early life was that she was a woman of good family from St. Petersburg. The colonel of Tudor's regiment reportedly sent brother officers either to teach him some Russian before his marriage or to try to persuade Tudor not to marry Larissa. Tudor, who was in love with Larissa, went ahead with the marriage and was forced to leave the regiment. One of Tudor's first cousins was told that Larissa had escaped from Russia and had been "earning her living the only way she could
Here is a picture from the Harrowgate Herald in 1918, showing a group of exiled Russian aristocrats. The face in the circle is unidentified, but the speculation is that this is Larissa/Tatiana
(http://i.imgur.com/uqpQDGE.png)
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 12, 2013, 06:32:55 PM
Ah, Larissa. I always found her a little mysterious. That photo you posted, she certainly has a resemblence to Tatiana there , if it is indeed Larissa!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: stepan on March 12, 2013, 06:47:58 PM
It´s only a wild speculation from Michael Occleshaw that this photo is of Larissa Feodorovna. It can be just anybody!  There is no known photo of
Larissa. There certainly was some mystery about her whoever she was.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 13, 2013, 10:04:49 AM
It´s only a wild speculation from Michael Occleshaw that this photo is of Larissa Feodorovna. It can be just anybody!....

True stepan, and even more (considering that the photographed lady is indeed Larissa Feodorovna), the photo is really blurry and the face of the woman can't be seen clearly so I don't think that it is  enough to "prove" anything (claimants always have blurry photos of themselves as "proofs" of their claims). 
But indeed, I consider the identity of this woman an interesting mystery (of course, she's not Tatiana) and it increases at knowing that her husband never wanted to say anything about Larissa after her death.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on March 17, 2013, 03:17:56 PM
This lady was either a liar to an attention seeker.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 17, 2013, 05:30:56 PM
More likely an attention seeker in my opinion.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: RealAnastasia on March 18, 2013, 12:35:13 AM
But all the same, I wish we could have more knowledge about these women just to  know WHO they REALLY were.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Carisbrooke on March 18, 2013, 04:10:38 AM
As far as I am aware Larrissa Tudor was neither a liar or attention seeker, indeed all her actions indicated the complete opposite. She made no claims during her lifetime and all the speculation as to her identity came about after her death.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 18, 2013, 12:06:13 PM
Ahhh, okay! Yes, I would have liked more knowledge about Larissa's life, certainly interests me!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on March 18, 2013, 03:16:17 PM
Problem is that there is virtually no information about her early life, a common occurrence back then.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 18, 2013, 06:27:12 PM
Exactly, which is a shame really.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 19, 2013, 12:51:35 PM
As far as I am aware Larrissa Tudor was neither a liar or attention seeker, indeed all her actions indicated the complete opposite. She made no claims during her lifetime and all the speculation as to her identity came about after her death.

I agree totally with you! Not only that she didn't make any claim but even her husband didn't make any claim in her name after Larissa's death, as I see he never wanted to speak about his wife or her identity after she died. I see that they wished to go unnoticed. The claim appeared really recently -long time after Larissa's death- (early 1990's) thanks to Occleshaw and his really imaginative book. :-/

I've always wondered why about this hermetic attitude of her husband, -I repeat, I don't believe she was Tatiana- but this makes the story even more mysterious, as well as that the little information that we know about her doesn't match (like birth date).
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on March 20, 2013, 10:07:28 AM
I wonder who she was then, I guess we'll never know.  As I said, there are no records of her birth.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 20, 2013, 11:58:08 AM
Agreed with Tim, looks like we'll never know who this mysterious Larissa REALLY was...
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 20, 2013, 04:16:39 PM
I wonder who she was then, I guess we'll never know.  As I said, there are no records of her birth.

Better to say, when was she really born. I mean, in her marriage certificate says that she was 24 years old in 1923 (August 16th) but in her grave says that Larissa was 28 years old at the moment of her death in 1926 (July 28th). So 1898 or 1899? Her personal information doesn't match in these documents, and I wonder how likely is that she really gave her real age in any of them. If it is hard to know  about her birth year is much harder to know for certain about Larissa's family or origin.

Sadly... I tend to agree with Jen about that we'll never know who was this mysterious woman :-(
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 20, 2013, 05:47:29 PM
UNLESS someone manages to stumble across something about her and it gets published, but that is very unlikely. Ahhh well...
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on March 28, 2013, 07:33:20 PM
The records are likely lost forever.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 28, 2013, 07:59:09 PM
Ahh well, it's a shame those records are likely lost forever then...
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 29, 2013, 12:09:07 PM
Personally I don't believe that there are much more documents about Larissa besides the few ones that we know -and still exist-. Who knows? Perhaps I'm wrong :-/
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 29, 2013, 07:29:02 PM
Well, you honestly never know....things/documents turn up out of the blue sometimes and get published and new information is found.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Neeosine on March 30, 2013, 10:59:55 AM
Her grave

Then:
(http://i.imgur.com/9QEsz9n.png)

Now:
(http://i.imgur.com/lnQwbEV.jpg)

Note how it says at the bottom: The King's own Hussars.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on March 30, 2013, 05:53:01 PM
Quote
Well, you honestly never know....things/documents turn up out of the blue sometimes and get published and new information is found.


Assuming they weren't lost in World War II, or something like that, I guess.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 30, 2013, 07:18:14 PM
Yep, true...
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: stepan on March 30, 2013, 07:42:29 PM
At least I think that she was a Russiam lady.  From the way she wrote some words at some documents I can see the influence from  Russian letters.   It seems that the relatives of Owen Tudor diden´t know much about her either. Or even ever met her. At the marriage certificate she wrote that her father´s name was Adolph Haouk. Michael Occleshaw wondered if this name Haouk had something to do with Julia Hauke,the Russian court lady who married into the Hesse-Darmstadt grand ducal family and created the Battenberg-Mountbatton branch of the family. Who knows? I wonder where Julia Haukes family came from? Perhaps from the baltic states as the name doesen´t sound Russian.  It seems also that some inhabitants in Lydd referred to her as the "Russian princess".    So my guess is that she was from a Russian upper class or princely family. I wonder what Occleshaw himself thinks of the matter today and if he has continued his research?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on March 30, 2013, 07:46:31 PM
I do agree that she was of upper class, yes, from what I read about her. I do wonder if Occleshaw has continued his research too?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 02, 2013, 08:42:20 PM
At least I think that she was a Russiam lady.  From the way she wrote some words at some documents I can see the influence from  Russian letters.   It seems that the relatives of Owen Tudor diden´t know much about her either. Or even ever met her. At the marriage certificate she wrote that her father´s name was Adolph Haouk....  It seems also that some inhabitants in Lydd referred to her as the "Russian princess".    So my guess is that she was from a Russian upper class or princely family. I wonder what Occleshaw himself thinks of the matter today and if he has continued his research?

I think that this is the most reasonable explanation of Larissa's real identity (rather than the theories of the belly dancer at Constantinople or being the daughter of a pork butcher) and it explains well the origin of the large fortune that she gave to her husband after her death. But even with this in mind I still find her story really mysterious.  
About Occleshaw I'm curious too if he continued his research, and also if he still believes that Larissa was TN?
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Robby on April 07, 2013, 08:58:43 AM
I've long been interested in this case. Her story is really shrouded in mystery. As has been stated before, neither Larissa nor her husband Owen Tudor ever claimed she was Tatiana - Occleshaw showed portraits of Tatiana, along with portraits of unrelated women from the same period, to people who had known Larissa. More than 60 years after Larissa's death, her former neighbors identified portraits of the grand duchess as Larissa.

Other strange occurences are for example the name on her gravestone. If her surname on her marriage certificate is stated as "Haouk", why is it "Feodorovna" (Alexandra Feodorovna) on her gravestone? Owen Tudor also used to send flowers to her grave every year on June 10th (birthdate of Tatiana).

This (http://www3.telus.net/mtnclimb/pers/family/owenTudor.html) website is very interesting.

But ofcourse we all know they died in 1918.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on April 07, 2013, 12:18:30 PM
It would be nice to find out just who Larissa was.  As I said, however, I don't think that's going to happen.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: LadyHezter on April 07, 2013, 02:14:27 PM
Has  there been any attempts to open her grave, and take samples from her remains for DNA-testing ?
That could be the only way to resolve the mystery.


LadyH.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on April 07, 2013, 03:12:40 PM
The problem with that idea, Tamara, is that they would need living relatives to compare the DNA sample with.  Since nothing is known of Larissa's background, there is no way to tell who her relatives are, even if any are still around today.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: stepan on April 07, 2013, 05:48:14 PM
Another mysterious twist to the story happened the 30th of July 1998. That morning it was found that the railings surrounding Larissa´s grave had been removed. Shortly afterwards some stone masons arrived to the grave and cleaned the headstone and the marble surrounds. Enquiries were made to the Shepway District Councel and to the Tudor family but noone knew who had given order about this work. This according to Sue Edwards in her little book "No resting place for a Romanov". She is a local historian from Kent. She wondered if it was the Russian Embassy or some other Russians who had ordered this work to be done. Quite a mystery isen´t it? But until this day noone seems to know more than twenty years ago. But somehow mysteries have their own beauty.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: LadyHezter on April 07, 2013, 05:49:44 PM
Well there IS a way, a DNA-test called Autosomal dna, where "they" can check relatives from all sides of a persons families, many generations back.
If they could check Larissas  dna  against a database were they have  a lot of members dna-registred, maybe there would be a match.

( I know this from personal experience, because I have done DNA-tests, and when I got the results I had 9 pages with -previously-unknown "cousins"! Then I got another
9 pages ! So I´m really busy every evening with "family" nowadays !
I am doing this for genealogy, with my cousins, because we are on a "hunt" for a couple of "missing" great great grandfathers !
Haven´t found them yet, but  a lot of people who are decendants  from  one of our  greatgrandfathers MATERNAL line-which I have never checked at all. And our common ancestors lived around 1650-1750  ! )

So, if one is lucky, there is a possibility.
(And there are DNA -forums which are especially dedicated to Nobility, Russian and Polish among them.)

But of course, there has to be a lot of people involved, church-and judicial   (spell?) authorities among them.




Regards,
Tamara




Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on April 08, 2013, 05:33:06 AM
Certainly an interesting twist, Stepan. Very mysterious...
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on April 10, 2013, 03:35:27 PM
Owen Tudor outlived his mysterious wife by 61 years (he died in 1987).

Good old Wikipedia.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: LadyHezter on April 16, 2013, 02:22:54 PM
Another mysterious twist to the story happened the 30th of July 1998. That morning it was found that the railings surrounding Larissa´s grave had been removed. Shortly afterwards some stone masons arrived to the grave and cleaned the headstone and the marble surrounds. Enquiries were made to the Shepway District Councel and to the Tudor family but noone knew who had given order about this work. This according to Sue Edwards in her little book "No resting place for a Romanov". She is a local historian from Kent. She wondered if it was the Russian Embassy or some other Russians who had ordered this work to be done. Quite a mystery isen´t it? But until this day noone seems to know more than twenty years ago. But somehow mysteries have their own beauty.
Stepan, do you think there is a possibility, that some autorithy DID open Larissas grave then in  1998 ?
To be able to take a sample from her remains, and check it against the DNA of the IF.
There were still one missing grand duchess at that time. And the only grand duchess the scientist agreed about, was GD Olga N.
Some people speculated that it could have been GD Tatiana who was missing.
So only to make  sure the missing GD wasn´t peacefully buried in England, instead of the Urals.

Tamara






Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on April 16, 2013, 03:57:31 PM
Of course, the discovery of the 2007 remains removed any notion that Larissa was Tatiana.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: stepan on April 16, 2013, 05:50:22 PM
Another mysterious twist to the story happened the 30th of July 1998. That morning it was found that the railings surrounding Larissa´s grave had been removed. Shortly afterwards some stone masons arrived to the grave and cleaned the headstone and the marble surrounds. Enquiries were made to the Shepway District Councel and to the Tudor family but noone knew who had given order about this work. This according to Sue Edwards in her little book "No resting place for a Romanov". She is a local historian from Kent. She wondered if it was the Russian Embassy or some other Russians who had ordered this work to be done. Quite a mystery isen´t it? But until this day noone seems to know more than twenty years ago. But somehow mysteries have their own beauty.
Stepan, do you think there is a possibility, that some autorithy DID open Larissas grave then in  1998 ?
To be able to take a sample from her remains, and check it against the DNA of the IF.
There were still one missing grand duchess at that time. And the only grand duchess the scientist agreed about, was GD Olga N.
Some people speculated that it could have been GD Tatiana who was missing.
So only to make  sure the missing GD wasn´t peacefully buried in England, instead of the Urals.

Tamara

I think that anything is possible here. But it seems that the grave wasen´t opened but only cleaned. Headstone and the marble around.But who knows what could have happened during a dark night? Sue Edwards thought it was a strange coincidence that this happened during the same month as the Romanov burial in St. Peteraburg.

Stepan




Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: LadyHezter on April 24, 2013, 02:27:18 PM
Yes, it was strange. But we will never know.  I only hope now that the two remaining children get a descent funeral in St.Petersburg,
so this sad chapter gets a closure.

Tamara
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: TimM on April 25, 2013, 10:30:46 AM
I agree.  They deserve a decent burial, whoever they are.
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Jen_94 on April 25, 2013, 11:47:15 AM
For sure, I agree!
Title: Re: Claimants of Grand Duchess Tatiana Nicholaevna
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 26, 2013, 03:08:14 PM

I was recently reading an odd -for not saying non sense- article on a Spanish newspaper online that said that the four Grand Duchesses and the Tsarina escaped, they identified Tatiana as a nun, here a translation of the fragment that says this:

 "...Tatiana, the second daughter of the Tsar, died during the first months of World War II (1939 or 1940), in a nunnery Ukrainian Catholic Basilian order in Poland, under the protection of Metropolitan of Lviv, Archbishop Andrei Szeptycki (predecessor of today Josyf Slipyj Cardinal, who said several family members have been aware of the issue)".


Well, I found recently  a story of a nun "Tatiana" , that possibly can be this woman (although not all the details fit), sadly the information was in Russian and my knowledge of it is terribly poor, so I got to understand this using the translator:

-Natalya Menshova- Radyshcheva: Is said that she was daughter of  a monarchist named  Ivan Menshov-Radyshchev. Apparently her family escaped in 1918 and she became  Catholic under the influence of local priests. In 1920 this woman travelled to Poland. Influenced by Skalski and Kakovskogo (two Church men, the second Cardinal Primate, if I'm not wrong) she declared herself  "Tatiana Romanova" (who escaped of death) and claimed to be saved of Yekaterinburg for members of a secret monarchist organization called "Society rescues the king and country." Then she became a novice in Warsaw on a convent supervised by the abbess Rosalia Okentskoy (1932-34).
She tried to get an audience with King Alexander of Yugoslavia but was arrested and sent from Belgrade to Austria. The remaining members of the Romanov family declared that this woman was in fact an imposter.
In 1939, at the time of the German invasion she was staying in Lviv but time after returned to Warsaw and lived in the house of the Countess Sobinskoy. She was recruited by German intelligence under the pseudonym "№ 3" and was trained by it, and she worked in the Polish community, informing about anti-German sentiment. Since 1941 she worked as a nurse in a hospital for prisoners of war, continuing to inform about the anti-Nazi conversations to the Gestapo. In 1942 finally moved to Lviv, where Sheptitsky took her custody and there, the woman edited  her "memories".
She lived in St. George's Cathedral in 1943 and in that year (with the help of two abbots) she got a "birth certificate" that stated that she was Tatiana Romanova. The same year  the "Grand Duchess " refused all her possessions to the Uniate Church. She worked at her monastery hospital (I think that until the end of WWII), but her fate after the German defeat still remains unknown.


More information about this woman is welcome... and photos too!!! ;-)