Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about Russian History => Imperial Russian Antiques => Topic started by: imperialrussia.com on July 25, 2010, 10:00:47 PM

Title: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: imperialrussia.com on July 25, 2010, 10:00:47 PM
Dear Friends,

If you have questions about Russian Imperial Antique, I hope I can help you.

I am collecting Russian antique for many years.

Ask your questions here.

Regards, imperialrussia.com
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Kiwi on August 06, 2010, 10:47:15 PM
I do have a question about imperial antiques, namely those that were confiscated and used for trade with western nations. 

Have you any information concerning the firm of Y. Somersalo and Company in Hellsingsfors, Finland, that traded goods (valuables, probably gold, silver, etc.) from Russia for goods from the U.S. and Scandinavia (i.e., tractors, clothes, foodstuffs, etc.) from 1914 to about 1922?

I agree this is a strange question, but you might have access, and linguistic knowledge, I don't have to trace this company's dealings during those turbulent years in Russia.  You might also help to clear up a family mystery! 

Cheers,

Kiwi

 
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: imperialrussia.com on August 09, 2010, 06:31:54 PM
Hello Kiwi,

Well, this is a unique question you have. To get more information about this company from Finland,
I suggest you go to Russian Central Library or the state archives.

Regards, imperialrussia.com
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: JWK on August 12, 2010, 03:10:11 PM
A couple of years ago I came across this lovely creamer on eBay of all places, placed a bid and am now the proud owner of this:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/jwinth/VasilyKangin.jpg)

and the marks on the bottom.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v733/jwinth/VasilyKanginmarks.jpg)

(Maker’s mark “BK” Vasily Kangin ?  (P-L 1245?)
Assayersmark for St Petersburg 1896 (Assayer “A.Sh” in cyrillic, unidentified assayer, Postnikova-Loseva # 1192 ), head facing left, and a later “875” Sovietmark.
Bottom rim, handle and spout are all marked with tiny St Petersburg coat of arms-mark.)

Can you tell me anything about this mr Vasily Kangin?
Judging from this little creamer, its perfect dimensions, and its silky feel to the fingers he must have been quite the master-silversmith.
But was he well known, or just a run-of-the-mill silversmith? Where did he live, did he own his own business or was he employed by others?
I can't find any substantial info on him on Google in western script, I'm sure there's lots more about him in cyrillic but alas I can only "read" cyrillic not "understand" it.....

I'm not too sure whether it really IS by Vasily Kangin, I have the Postnikova book and nr 1245 came nearest to the actual mark (apologies for the lousy picture of it, it's just impossible to accurately photograph a tiny (2 mm at the most) silvermark.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Constantinople on August 12, 2010, 04:35:20 PM
I found the following
Five silver coloured items, comprising: a Russian straight tapered small cream jug by Vasily Kangin, St Petersburg, 84 zolotniks, late 19th century, 5.5cm high; a south-east Asian chased small bowl; a south American filigree card case; a south or middle American cigarette case, with applied deities; and an Egyptian small bowl, 14.65 oz gross
 £120 -180

Sold for £190

http://www.dnfa.com/search.asp?view=keyword&auction=30365&keyword=%7C%7C&lotno=&noperpage=20&cat=&pg=140&orderby=&noofresults=513&catname=Full%20list%20of%20lots
 
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: imperialrussia.com on August 12, 2010, 11:16:47 PM
Dear JWK,

To answer all of your questions, I'm gonna try to upload a few pictures and as you can see, you're absolutely right. VK is Vasiliy Kangin and owner of a silver and gold mastershop (1898 - 1908).
He's not so popular like famous: Vasiliy Semenov, Ivan Khlebnikov, Gavril Grachev and others. But as you can see from the pictures, there are many silversmiths with the same initials (VK). I hope I answered your questions.

(http://i34.tinypic.com/iyg8df.jpg) (http://i34.tinypic.com/2dvlbgw.jpg)
(http://i35.tinypic.com/6sgosh.jpg)

Sorry for the quality of the pictures. If you have more questions, I will gladly help.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Kiwi on September 15, 2010, 04:14:04 PM
Hello Kiwi,

Well, this is a unique question you have. To get more information about this company from Finland,
I suggest you go to Russian Central Library or the state archives.

Regards, imperialrussia.com


Thanks for your reply.  I found my answer about the company in Finland.  Unfortunately, I found more than I bargained for concerning my family's dealings with it, and many other less-than-noble business ventures, not from the Russian Central Library, but from several historians in Turkey, Russia, Estonia, Britain, and the U.S.  I will need to create a new (perhaps too controversial) thread for the discussion.  I've searched the Alexanderpalace site, and no mention is made about the characters and sinister "firms" at work during the Russian Civil War (1917-22/23), so this will be news for folks. 

I will submit the thread to you in advance, in order to clear its contents.   

Cheers,

A very surprised and chocked Kiwi (with three VERY LARGE skeletons in her closet)
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 18, 2011, 06:38:53 PM
I have a question about some of the items you offer for sale at your website.
The spoons with monogramms on this page (http://www.imperialrussia.com/romanovcoronation.html), did they really belong to members of the Imperial Family, considering that their monogramms only are surmounted by simple noble's coronets (three leafes and two pearls) and the last one (supposedly belonging to Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna) with the multi-spiked baronial coronet? I would have expected the imperial crown above the monogramms of all Imperial Highnesses.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: imperialrussia.com on January 19, 2011, 03:33:58 PM
All Russian Imperial silver monogram items, guarantee to be genuine and original, and
made by famous russian silversmiths: Gubkin, Khlebnikov, Grachev Brothers, and others.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 19, 2011, 03:50:41 PM
All Russian Imperial silver monogram items, guarantee to be genuine and original, and
made by famous russian silversmiths: Gubkin, Khlebnikov, Grachev Brothers, and others.


You did not answer my question. Was it normal for members of the Imperial Family to use simple nobles' coronets above their monogramms instead of the imperial crown?
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 19, 2011, 06:12:43 PM
Other Russian antiques specialists, please step in with your opinion!

If this is a scam to give genuine articles from the Russian Empire a fake Romanov provenance, I don't really mind that much, as it just serves people right if they're so ignorant that they don't know the difference between various coronets of rank and think any crown equals royalty. But I do love to expose that kind of fraud.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 19, 2011, 06:33:59 PM
I am puzzeled by the ambiguity as well, Feodor.
 Being in the antique business for more years than I care to remember, we rarely had Russian pieces. When we did, they were given to a specialist dealer who had the proper clientele for such items. I left a message for him to call and possibly answer the question. One thing I am sure of though,  just because something is "Imperial Russian" whatever, [china, silver crystal, etc.] does not mean  the provenance is from the Imperial Family itself.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 19, 2011, 06:46:17 PM
I am relieved to hear you share my doubts. I am also suspicious because of the Gothic letter forms, I didn't know Cyrillic letters could be written that way. Since the spoons evidently are made by known Russian goldsmiths, perhaps they were made for untitled Baltic nobles?

BTW here (http://www.imperialrussia.com/imperialcigarettecases/karelianbirchcrestcase.html) is another (intentionally?) mislabelled item from this dealer. He says the birch case is decorated with the Russian imperial eagle, but there is no St. George slaying the dragon in the arms. Instead it fits perfectly with the heart shield of the Austrian imperial arms: Lion (Habsburg), fess (Austria) and bend (Lorraine)! Plus it fits with the Austrian-Hungarian eagle holding both sword and sceptre in its right claw, while the Russian just holds a sceptre.

Here (http://www.imperialrussia.com/imperialcigarettecases/vnmonogramcase.html) is yet another example of this dealer trying to pass off an item with the monogramm initals of V.N. and a noble's coronet as a Romanov item!
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 19, 2011, 07:22:51 PM
The first case is  quite obviously  Austrian  Could have been manufactured in  Russia but I  cannot see a reason why, Austria had/has fine silversmiths as well.  Even the black enamel inlay is a Habsburg colour.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 19, 2011, 07:37:45 PM
Re Reply # 12 and "FP":  In terms of Imperial Arms representation (Imperial Austria  vs. Imperial Russia), the arms on the birch case are definitely Austrian (and surmounted IMO by the Austrian Imperial Crown/Crown of Rudolf II) as both you and Robert have mentioned.  As to the black enamel being a "Habsburg" color, the Imperial Russian Eagle was also black (Am looking at a Russian enamelled spoon in my collection right now of 1896). Today's arms of the Russian Federation, of course, have an eagle of gold on red.  Regards,   AP.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 19, 2011, 07:48:48 PM
Really, basic heraldic knowledge seems to be very lacking even among antiques dealers. Even John Atzbach, whom I understand to be known as both knowledgeable and trustworthy, gets it wrong here (http://www.atzbach.com/Item.aspx?Id=812-541). The multi-quartered shield is NOT the Prussian arms, as he claims, but those of Holstein-Gottorp!
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 19, 2011, 08:26:54 PM
Re "FP" and your reference to the illustration of an original "pot a creme" with the arms of Russia and Holstein-Gottorp:  The American porcelain manufacturer Boehm, made excellent boxed REPRODUCTIONS of one of the plates from that service, and sold them at the "Nicholas and Alexandra" Exhibition/Tour in the USA in 1998-99.  I purchased several, and must say they are a "show-stopper" when displayed!   Regards,   AP.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 19, 2011, 09:48:14 PM
I remember those plates, AP.  I do not know how my partner came across them, but I  searched out the arms- I have not a few books on the subject.  They sold very fast, I was not interested in keeping one I rarely requisition  merchandise  now. Trying to get rid of a lot that  I have have already.
 BTW, I did not mean to imply that black was exclusive to the Habsburgs, just another indicator in the identity of the case.
 The latest example, the cup, how could it be Prussian/German ? Their eagle was single headed.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 19, 2011, 09:52:58 PM
The latest example, the cup, how could it be Prussian/German ? Their eagle was single headed.

John Atzbach thinks it's the arms of both Russia and Prussia surmounted on the same bicephalous eagle, just because it was a gift from Friedrich the Great to Grand Duke Paul. Obviously a diplomatic impossibility!

But what remains shocking is the other dealer's attempt at passing of items with monogramms under simple nobles' coronets as Romanov stuff! When it could have belonged to Lenin's family, considering that they achieved hereditary nobility, couldn't it? Could a chinovnik use a real noble's coronet above his monogramm when he achieved hereditary nobility, without having been granted arms? What about chinovniks with personal nobility, were they also entitled to a noble's coronet on their cutlery!?
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 19, 2011, 09:58:19 PM
Re Reply #17:  Hello, Robert! Forgive me if I am not 100% correct/comprehensible, as I am doing this quickly and from memory, but I believe that the service was a wedding present to the recipients FROM the Prussian Frederick II (made in the Berlin Factory).  Since the recipients would be residing (and using the service) in Russia, it was natural to display the two shields of each individual ---Russia and Holstein-G.-----on the "motherland"/host Russian eagle, as per the groom's importance/position.  Best regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on January 19, 2011, 10:22:19 PM
the two shields of each individual ---Russia and Holstein-G.-----
Both were Paul's. His wives were from Hesse and Württemberg.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 19, 2011, 10:35:47 PM
Ah, thanks, FP!  As I said, I was quickly replying and doing so from memory! I appreciate your help!  Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: David Pritchard on January 21, 2011, 10:03:36 PM
The spoons pictured did not belong to members of the Imperial House. I have on one occasion many years ago possessed a set of a half dozen Faberge forks bearing the cypher of GD Nikolai Nikolaevich. I have also seen many pieces of silver made for members of the Imperial House and they have always borne the the Imperial Crown. The coronet of a Dvoryanin would not have been acceptable. After all, pre-1917 Russia known for the extravagance of its silver and the adherence to strict protocol.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 22, 2011, 08:39:14 AM
Reply to Post # 22 and "David Pritchard" :   My experiences involving the usage of the Imperial Crown surmounting the initial/monogram of Imperial Family members on flatware, has been the same as yours.  I still have examples in my collection. And you are correct:  Russian silver is usually very-well marked.  Still, mistakes are numerous in attribution.  An example:  Some time back, 2 large Russian spoons were offered for sale accompanied by good, clear photos and a nice write-up stating that these were made for and used as the personal property of the Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich, the son of the Emperor Alexander III (and a younger brother to the Emperor Nicholas II).  The spoons bore the Imperial Crown, Cyrillic owner's monogram/cypher, etc.  The only problem was the DATE of manufacture, clearly shown.  IF.....if.... these spoons HAD been the property of the brother of Nicholas II, then the date indicated that they were made for him to use (if I recall correctly) three years beore his birth!  In truth, they were made for the use of ANOTHER Grand Duke Michael, son of Nicholas I !!!! The date fitted exacrly.  I contacted the dealer, who readily agreed that his write-up was in error, corrected such and did indeed sell the spoons regardless.  They were absolutely authentic; just a case of mistaken owners! Of course, many collectors would probably have PREFERRED that they be possessions of the so-called "last Emperor," not from a somewhat obscure relative .   Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: David Pritchard on January 22, 2011, 03:29:40 PM
I do not even bother to correct the mistakes of antique dealers. Few are interested in my unsolicited opinions and most have firmly decided exactly what they are selling before contacted. A very small number have however, corrected their listings and some probably made even more money. Antique dealers are interested in accurate history, just in turning a fast profit.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Forum Admin on January 23, 2011, 11:31:20 AM
I find it hit and miss as well with the antique dealers I have contacted about their mistaken attributions.  One corrected his listing when I corrected him that the "Winter Palace Service" plate he was selling was just an ordinary Kuznetsov plate of the 1900s that someone had painted a crudely done Imperial Eagle on top of.  Another insisted I knew nothing and was wrong, when I pointed out the same thing, even going so far as to send him a photo of a genuine Winter Palace Service (aka Coronation service) plate I have...

Another was selling a "Faberge" piece, which had a Moscow assay mark SIX YEARS BEFORE Faberge opened the Moscow branch, and still told med I was wrong when I showed him the chronology...

David is right. People believe what the want to believe...especially if they think they can make a buck.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 23, 2011, 11:59:24 AM
This is why we do not  deal in such items. Often the seller believes in some old family myth- and we have heard them all!
 - proof not withstanding.
 If an item has some merit, it goes immediately to  our experts in the field for them to handle. I have little to do with the business any longer, but my partner does bring things home for me to identify. We have seen more Faberge Imperial eggs than he could have ever produced, along with  silver and gold.  I did keep a Faberge presentation teaspoon set for a while, it was so beautiful. It was not Imperial but a nice set anyway. Eventually that went. All I have now are a few of the  Easter eggs for  bracelets. Some are Faberge, some not.  They are nice in my dollshouse. Speaking of which, I have 2 perfect miniature Faberge  Imperial eggs, with the surprises.  Of course you need a magnifying glass to really see them, as they are perfect 1-1 scale.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Forum Admin on January 23, 2011, 12:03:13 PM
99.5% of what is being sold as "genuine Faberge" is not.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 23, 2011, 12:21:33 PM
Don't we all know it, FA ?  Most of it is so obvious.  But you cannot convince the believer, can you ? Sort of reminds me of another story.....

 Imperial China  is another minefield.   I had a lady in LA who took blank china and copied Imperial patterns on  them. Not very well, I might add. She sold this stuff as originals. Only the blind would swallow that line. and even then, they would be suspicious. Anyway, our shop was on a row of antique shops, there  were 5 or 6 of us. She took this junk to each one of us and was dismissed right off. When she cam to me,  I told her we do not buy copies or fakes. [therer is a difference] She was highly insulted and stormed out.  Later I was visiting another shop and noticed he had a couple of her pieces, the poor lad was new at this and asked what I thought of them.  I told him the truth about them. He sighed, took them off the shelf and I guess binned them.  He had spent only about $10 each for them, on the hope they were real. Last I hear, and this was years ago, that lady was still trotting all over LA trying to sell this junk. I think that must have been her only sale. I know some ended up in the thrift/charity shops. Must have been giiven as gifts.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Forum Admin on January 23, 2011, 12:57:48 PM
My favorite story on the subject: A Faberge show was being held at a museum. A man who loaned his clock to the exhibit, among other pieces, was attending the preview party, and a well known dealer was chatting with him. Dealer "Pretty clock, but you know it's a fake." Lender "I'm rather certain it is genuine." Dealer "No, new research has shown these are fakes. It isn't genuine." Lender "I beg to differ. It's real". Dealer "Really, well where did you get it?" Donor "I bought it from YOU twelve years ago." The Dealer himself told me the story!!
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 23, 2011, 01:45:31 PM
I am sure we all have stories about Russian antiques, especially Faberge.
 In Camden Town/lock There is a shop [I am assuming it is still there, although I have not been up there in a few years] that sells exquisite little Faberge style animals. The owner is Asian, so there is a fair guess as to where these come from.  They are simply beautiful, Right scale, exact matches. I do not know how the original animals are marked, never having had one,  but these could pass to someone who is not an expert.  Besides the ones that I have seen in books, catalogues and museums, he had others that  were clearly not one of Faberge's animals. Same quality, however. He never claimed they were Faberge, but  when  people assumed they were, he said nothing to disabuse them of the  notion [tourists, mainly]. They were not cheap nor too costly. Over the years, I bought a few as cabinet pieces and then later gave them away as gifts. All I have left now is a cat with saphire eyes.  When guests see it they  insist it is Faberge, I tell them the story yet they still insist I do not know what I have. Oh, well, let them believe. The Asian guy and I know, so what the hell ?
 BTW, the saphires are not real, I think.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on January 23, 2011, 02:48:21 PM
Re: Post # 30:  Interesting post, Robert!  To my memory, a few of the stone animals, figures (people) and flowers had engraved marks on the underside of the bases (and/or if gold-mounted, the feet, stems, etc. were marked on the gold).  I believe that most of the animals were unmarked. I'm not familiar with Asian "style-ofs" in this genre, but after all, if I recall correctly, K. Faberge was inspired by and even collected Japanese netsuke.  The potential that Asian artisans have done/do such "Faberge-style" work is certainly within their excellent grasp.
      Some years ago (and you may recall), the US magazine "Antiques" advertised for sale copies "in the style of" Faberge's rarest "standard" items: the flower studies. They were plainly labeled as products of Idar-Oberstein in Germany, a place well known for its precious/semi-precious productions . As yourself, while I have owned (and still do) Faberge, I have never had one of the animals, but have been fortunate to see quite a few of the animals, figures and flower-studies at close range in exihibitions in Europe and the USA.    Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 23, 2011, 04:33:16 PM
In China, a few years ago,  we went to a shop that specialised in "fabrications" They had a huge display of the Faberge flowers.  Hundreds of them. They were too cheap to be real, but they were beautiful. I was tempted to buy one or two just for decoration in the cabinets. Until, I discovered they were all plastic! I could not believe plastic could look so real. I am sure they were headed for souvenir shops all over the world.
 And in Russia itself, especially St.P.  one has to be extremely careful. They will tell you anything you want to hear and they are pretty good and  assessing the buyer  to see what they can get away with. Same everywhere, I guess.
 Oh they are also good at money tricks.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Forum Admin on January 23, 2011, 06:06:11 PM
Bob found a hardstone carver in China who made exact copies for him of the Yorkshire horse made for Edward VII by Faberge, in several different, genuine hardstones. they have gold collets and genuine sapphire eyes.  We know they aren't genuine, but some might try to pass them off as genuine.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 12, 2011, 03:52:37 AM
Hello, please could anyone share any thought on this item? Is it Russian? It seems to be celebrating centenary from 1809-1909. Unfortunately the 9 is damaged. Thank you in advance! :)

(http://img27.imageshack.us/i/badge1l.jpg/)

(http://img143.imageshack.us/i/badge2c.jpg/)

(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4586/badge1l.jpg)[/URL]

[ftp=ftp://[URL=http://img143.imageshack.us/i/badge2c.jpg/](http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4290/badge2c.jpg)[/URL]

Uploaded with [URL=http://imageshack.us]ImageShack.us[/URL]][URL=http://img143.imageshack.us/i/badge2c.jpg/](http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4290/badge2c.jpg)[/URL]

 (ftp://[URL=http://img27.imageshack.us/i/badge1l.jpg/)
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on February 12, 2011, 07:58:31 AM
Eddie,

Yes, it's Russian one. It's a military badge of 51'st Infantry of HIM Tsesarevich Alexey Lithuanian Regiment. It seems to me that this one (you posted) is a variant for Officer ranks. Last dislocation of regiment - Simferopol, Crimea. Number 1809 is a foundation year. 1909 - centenary anniversary.

Btw, sorry for the question, where did you get it? I must say that the quality of this copy is pretty good;).
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 12, 2011, 11:17:46 AM
Hello Nicola, thank you, thank you for educating me!! :):) That is so interesting to know, I have been wondering for ages what it was all about!
No need to apologise, I found it in the office at home. My Father must have picked it up somewhere a long time ago, he can't remember!
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 12, 2011, 11:27:49 AM
http://en.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/p/383343

I found this link about it too! It's all so interesting. It fires up my imagination & I love to wonder how it found it's way here, so far from Russia! Thank you Nicola! :)
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on February 12, 2011, 03:11:38 PM
You are welcome;). Btw, interesting source, never heard about it. Czechs have done a great site.

It fires up my imagination & I love to wonder how it found it's way here, so far from Russia! Thank you Nicola! :)

Good question. Although I'm not an expert on Russian antiques, but most likely (almost 100%) this badge has the common story. Just as an assumption: in original before Revolution it was the property of one of the graduated regiment's officers. After Revolution and Civil War, most likely, he emigrated as well as other thousands of officers (to France, or USA, Serbia, UK, etc.). Commonly these people being taken out from Russian reality, lived a poor life and existence abroad (of course the main amount). In this case, selling some of your valuable things which you brought from Russia (family jewels, decorations, etc.) and to earn additional money for the living was a common practice and significant help in difficult emigre life. After that selling badge lived his own life, changing owners endless times and being sold out on dozens of auctions.

Just my suggestion...
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Forum Admin on February 12, 2011, 04:40:20 PM
Far less romantic, but many such badges were also sold by the box at flea markets and little shops during the mid 1990s in Russia. Bob used to bring home handfuls of them from his trips in those days as they only cost a few dollars each.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 13, 2011, 02:48:09 AM
Thank you Nicola & Rob! Very interesting & thank you to the forum, as I have been wondering about it for so long. Of course we shall never know it's journey.  My father owned antique shops & auction house so I presume it came from there. Excuse my ignorance but would it be worn on a hat?
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Nicolá De Valerón on February 13, 2011, 08:28:48 AM
I've just imagine this badge on a hat;). No, it was worn mainly on the left side of the chest, just near the military decorations.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 13, 2011, 10:29:33 AM
Oh I see, thank you, would there have been an award ceremony? I wonder if they where mass produced, one for every soldier! :)
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Robert_Hall on February 13, 2011, 12:46:15 PM
 These were or officers, Eddie. The rank & file would have received if anything, a little badge or pin of some sort.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 13, 2011, 01:06:26 PM
Ah I see, thank you Robert! This is an officers one & maybe other ranks would have had something different!
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Kiwi on February 13, 2011, 03:20:55 PM
Oh I see, thank you, would there have been an award ceremony? I wonder if they where mass produced, one for every soldier! :)

Eddie,

Yes, there were elaborate centennial jubilee ceremonies where these pins were awarded.  Our family owned the 91st Dvinsk Regiment's silver service from their jubilee (1805-1905).

Dr. Konstantin Tsimbaev (history professor in Bern and Moscow) has written several papers about these ceremonies, and their historical significance.  His papers in German have been, I believe, translated in English.  The most useful to my search would translate roughly as: "Jubilee Fever in Czar Nicholas II's reign."  Google "Dr. Tsimbaev's" name, and "Jubilee Fever," and you should find the articles.

Also, see the reply to my query post under "91st Dvinsk Regiment Jubilee Ceremony" in the Militaria section on this site.  Another reader kindly posted a picture of the Tsar and Tsarina at the 91st Dvinsk Regiment's Jubilee Ceremony in Reval, Estonia (where my family lived on and off between 1914 and 1923). 

Cheers,

Kiwi   
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Eddie_uk on February 14, 2011, 03:56:13 AM
Dear Kiwi, that is interesting! Thank you for sharing I will certainly look those up! And what a wonderful part of your family history! :)
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Douglas on February 15, 2011, 04:12:48 PM
When I was in the art restoration business,  a man [high school teacher] brought me a little painting [5x6] he wanted 'cleaned'.  He told me he had bought in the 'back room' of an art gallery in Spain.  It was an obvious fake. It was just a print that someone had covered with dark amber varnish, I could easily see the printing dot pattern.  The seller told him it was a "private family heirloom". Price he paid?  $450 in the 1970s.  I didn't have the heart to tell him it was a fake. I told him it was best to leave it the way it was [any cleaning would have revealed it's secret!.]
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on February 15, 2011, 04:38:08 PM
  Hello, Douglas!   Nice anecdote!  Rather than say "There's one born every minute,"  I think that the most apropos one is "A fool and his money are soon parted"!  Spain is a favorite country of mine, and they can do some fantastic work in reproductions, not just a pixel-laden varnished print.  I have seen for sale (properly represented) the most beautiful "S-Curve" Madonna/s and Child statutes carved from truly old barn/storage/demolished houses' beams/rafters.
  Though this is OT, I am reminded of a friend of mine who visited an acquaintance who proudly displayed a framed black/white celebrity photo of the American movie star, Marilyn Monroe. It was definitely signed with a signature (not a printed facsimilie) that plainly said "Marilyn Monroe."  However, the very tiny print at the bottom (unfortunately not covered by the frame) showed a printing date of that specific edition that was two years AFTER her death!   Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: imperialrussia.com on March 18, 2011, 05:35:49 PM
Dear Friends,

If you have questions about Russian Imperial Antique, I hope I can help you.

I am collecting Russian antique for many years.

Ask your questions here.

Regards, imperialrussia.com
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 18, 2011, 06:50:58 PM
Ask your questions here.

You still haven't satisfactorily answered the questions on page 1 of this thread, about why you identify several monogrammed items on your site as having Romanov provenance when they are adorned with mere nobles' and baronial coronets. As you can read on page 2, two knowledgeable posters strongly disagree with you.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: imperialrussia.com on March 18, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
Every Russian Imperial item we are testing for silver (84) or gold (56) content,
and identifying silversmith (maker) and assayer.
To verify if the information is correct, we are using
many different sources, catalogs, and books.
The information we providing is free of charge.
Best Regards, ImperialRussia.com
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 18, 2011, 09:30:49 PM
Every Russian Imperial item we are testing for silver (84) or gold (56) content,
and identifying silversmith (maker) and assayer.
To verify if the information is correct, we are using
many different sources, catalogs, and books.
The information we providing is free of charge.
Best Regards, ImperialRussia.com


Yeah, but that doesn't say anything about the Romanov provenance you are claiming. Do you realize that many people in Imperial Russia were entitled to coronets above their monogramms, not just the Romanovs?
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Kiwi on May 16, 2014, 09:18:55 AM
Dear Friends,

If you have questions about Russian Imperial Antique, I hope I can help you.

I am collecting Russian antique for many years.

Ask your questions here.

Regards, imperialrussia.com


I have a pair of silver (gilt worn off) kovshi from 1905 or so marked with I.K.A (so it looks in either Cyrillic or Latin print).  The company name is Morozov, but not the famous maker (it's in script with no imperial warrant).  Two other identical kovshi were sold last year (2013) at Jackson's Auction house to someone in Moscow, one had the maker's mark of Antip Kuzmi(e)chev, and the other identical marks to mine.  Also, a silver tea set with I.K.A. marks was sold in Denmark a few years ago.  Do your books show I.K.A.?  Or something similar? 

By the way, my grandfather had the punchbowl and many, many of these kovshi before the crash of 1929.  Each kovsh had a different message around the rim written in Old Russian.  I've asked for translations, but no one I know can make out the words.  One dealer, without a translation done, indicated these were "proverbs," but I'll believe that when I can translate mine.  So . . .   

Second question, can you read old Russian?  The native speakers I know aren't familiar with it. 

Thanks,  Kiwi 

My question:  Who was I.K.A.?  I've asked you about the Morozov mark, and you gave me a lead on a Sergei Morozov.  I've been asking about this maker ever since. 
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Forum Admin on May 16, 2014, 09:56:23 AM
I consult with Jackson's regularly. I went into the archives and looked at the marks from last year's sale.  The "IKA" maker is unidentified and not listed in any literature. Nobody knows, so far as I can tell, who he was.  The script Morosov is likely the retailer of the pieces.

I don't know anybody who can read Slavonic, but they are indeed probably "Proverbs" or sayings relating to drink or hospitality or such.
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Kiwi on June 05, 2014, 02:33:14 PM
I translated one of the kovshi I have (identical to the pair sold at Jacksons last year).  Found some Old Church Russian exemplars, and worked forward in time (is Old Church Russian the same as Slavonic, then?)  The 'E' was written as a stylized boat -- like a little kovsh, itself. 

Knowing about the centennial ceremonies, and the grand attention to historical Muscovite heroes (and some mythology) in the ceremonies for the regiment, the translation fits.  It's a synopsis (or rather the logline - in film terms) of Bishop George assisting Kind David of Georgia with recruiting the military might of the Kypchaks in the 12th century.  In fact, when I pronounce it (badly, of course) it reads like a palindrome. 

The other kovsh, I'm having more difficulty with.  Keep coming up with 'Kansas City" and nothing else.  Maybe it's a prediction:  "Kansas City wins pennant in 2005."  Guess I have to keep cracking at this Old Russian .  .  . Certainly can't count on these kovshi to help me wager on future sports events    ;-o) 

I don't think these kovshi were engraved with Proverbs, or drinking rhymes, given the ceremony where these were used was supposed to be very solemn.  I sure would like to know what the two sold at Jacksons and the other "Kansas City' kovsh have inscribed on them.  What I really would like to see is the huge punchbowl and other 20+ other kovshi from my grandfather's set! 

Cheers,

Kiwi 
Title: Re: Russian Imperial Antique * Questions and Answers from an Expert *
Post by: Превед on June 05, 2014, 03:46:24 PM
(is Old Church Russian the same as Slavonic, then?)

Old Russian (древнерусский язык) is the common East Slavic language actually spoken in Ukraina / Kievan Rus, Belarussia and Russia up till the 14th century. The literary language of this area in this period and untill the Petrine era was Church Slavic / Slavonic (церковнославянский язык), the liturgical language of the Orthodox Church, a frozen form of the South Slavic variety Old Slavic or Slavonic (старославянский язык), which was based on Macedonian and Bulgarian varities and ceased to be a living language before the 12th century.

Note that "Slavic" and "Slavonic" actually are merely two different Occidental forms of славянский, with Slavic often used with regard to the popular language and ethnic characteristics of the West, East and South Slavs, while Slavonic is more often used with regard to the Church Slavic literary tradition.

Any literary output in Old Russian would be heavily influenced by Church Slavic.

All forms would be written with the Old Slavic font of the Cyrillic alphabet. See Википедия: Старославянская азбука (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%8F%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B0#.D0.90.D0.B7.D0.B1.D1.83.D0.BA.D0.B0)