Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) => Topic started by: Ilana on December 20, 2004, 01:04:43 PM

Title: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Ilana on December 20, 2004, 01:04:43 PM
Thomas, I didn't know her... however, from all accounts, she was very well-loved in the family.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Martyn on December 20, 2004, 03:13:26 PM
Does anyone have any photos of Pcss Margaret?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: otmafan on December 20, 2004, 07:05:04 PM
I'll have to fix it. geocities.com is down. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 20, 2004, 07:34:03 PM
Otmafan, I can't see you're pictures! :'(
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 20, 2004, 09:29:04 PM
Quote
I'll have to fix it. geocities.com is down. Sorry about that.


It okay, take you're time.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Martyn on December 21, 2004, 04:56:24 AM
Elisa, thank you for this information about Pcss Margaret's biography.  Is it in German (sadly I speak and read German very poorly)?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: elisa_1872 on December 21, 2004, 08:53:41 AM
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Elisa, thank you for this information about Pcss Margaret's biography.  Is it in German (sadly I speak and read German very poorly)?


You are most welcome, Martyn! The book is really wonderful, entirely in German.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Martyn on December 21, 2004, 01:31:27 PM
Quote

You are most welcome, Martyn! The book is really wonderful, entirely in German.


Elisa, 'wie schade' (is that right?).  I shall live in hope that I may find something in translation.  Thanks all the same.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: otmafan on December 21, 2004, 02:29:27 PM
Hope this works. sorry they're big.

(http://www.geocities.com/grandduchessesotma/hessecouple.jpg)

(http://www.geocities.com/grandduchessesotma/hessemargaret.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on December 21, 2004, 04:23:09 PM
cool Pictures!!!!!!! thanks Otmafan. :)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Martyn on December 21, 2004, 05:27:20 PM
What lovely pictures.  Who is the child?  Is it Princess Johanna?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Jane on December 21, 2004, 05:48:47 PM
Yes, that second picture is of Princess Margaret and Johanna .  I think both of those photos are from Zeepvat's Queen Victoria's Family.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: otmafan on December 21, 2004, 08:28:49 PM
After Johanna's family died, Margaret adopted her. She was devastated when Johanna died of menigitis in 1939.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on December 21, 2004, 08:46:36 PM

For I did never have the honor to know her I'd like to know what kind of person she was in your opinion, how she appeared and how you experienced your meeting(s)[/quote]

I corresponded with Pss Margaret for some years in connection with my book, and I was a guest at Wolfsgarten for lunch the day after Prince Harry was born.  We wet his head.   The Princess opened her archives to me, and gave me a tour of the house.  She also made it possible for me to go into the Mausoleum, and put me in touch with other family members as well (or rather put in good words about me.)  I met her again in 1989 when she was in NYC for Prince Henry of Hesse (Enrico d'Assia's) first art exhibition in NYC in 25 years ... a real surprise to see her there .. took photographs of the different royal guests ... inc. Margaret
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on December 21, 2004, 08:48:20 PM
Wie Schade is fine.   Franz's book is superb, lots of lovely photos. Unlikely that the book would ever be translated into English.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Martyn on December 22, 2004, 04:02:40 AM
Quote
For I did never have the honor to know her I'd like to know what kind of person she was in your opinion, how she appeared and how you experienced your meeting(s)I corresponded with Pss Margaret for some years in connection with my book, and I was a guest at Wolfsgarten for lunch the day after Prince Harry was born.  We wet his head.   The Princess opened her archives to me, and gave me a tour of the house.  She also made it possible for me to go into the Mausoleum, and put me in touch with other family members as well (or rather put in good words about me.)  I met her again in 1989 when she was in NYC for Prince Henry of Hesse (Enrico d'Assia's) first art exhibition in NYC in 25 years ... a real surprise to see her there .. took photographs of the different royal guests ... inc. Margaret


You are very lucky to have had the privilege of knowing her Marlene.
It must have been truly devastating for Margaret and Ludwig to lose Pcss Johanna in that fashion.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on December 22, 2004, 10:24:41 AM
thanks Martyn,  Yes,  Ludwig and Margaret were devastated by Johanna's death, especially as they were unable to have children of their own.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Martyn on December 22, 2004, 04:12:35 PM
To have known so much sadness in so few years; they must both have been such strong people to have dealt with it all and made something good of their lives.
To have their wedding, which should have been one of the happiest moments of their lives, overshadowed by such tragedy is quite enough,  To then lose the little girl who had been entrusted to them and whose parents' role they so readily and willingly assumed, must have been a terrible burden for them to bear.  How truly sad.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Janet_W. on December 22, 2004, 04:36:06 PM
My thoughts exactly, Martyn. A joyous wedding turned into a time of tragedy; the surviving child, entrusted to them, dies; and they remain childless.  I have been haunted by this situation since the time I first read about it and long to hear that this couple's marriage was a strong union and that their original bond was strengthened by all the sadness they endured.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Martyn on December 22, 2004, 05:02:58 PM
Quote
My thoughts exactly, Martyn. A joyous wedding turned into a time of tragedy; the surviving child, entrusted to them, dies; and they remain childless.  I have been haunted by this situation since the time I first read about it and long to hear that this couple's marriage was a strong union and that their original bond was strengthened by all the sadness they endured.

After all this, they could not have children of their own either.  They must have had immense inner strength; I don't know that I could bear such sorrow.  Like you Janet, I have always felt that this was such a terrrible family tragedy and that those who had the most to bear were Margaret and Ludwig; how I feel for them.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: MarquisAnthony on December 30, 2004, 02:53:49 PM
Is this Princess Margaret the original Margaret Geddes?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on December 30, 2004, 03:05:21 PM
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Is this Princess Margaret the original Margaret Geddes?


Yes it is. I would imagine that a tragedy like what took place before their wedding must've really bonded Margaret and Louis together. Testament to their character as it, combined with childlessness, could've provoked just the opposite.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bluetoria on July 27, 2005, 05:06:43 PM
What a wonderful photo, Thomas! Do you not think that there is something in the faces of the royalties of that generation that displays such regality? Perhaps it is a strength of spirit which shines through; as though, perhaps, the suffering which they have endured selflessly, makes them more appreciative of joy....

Hmm...thanks for posting it!  :)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 27, 2005, 08:00:14 PM
Quote
What a wonderful photo, Thomas! Do you not think that there is something in the faces of the royalties of that generation that displays such regality? Perhaps it is a strength of spirit which shines through; as though, perhaps, the suffering which they have endured selflessly, makes them more appreciative of joy....

Hmm...thanks for posting it!  :)



Pss Margaret was a classy lady, and much loved by her family.  I had the pleasure of meeting her several times, and being a guest for lunch at Wolfsgarten, as well.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marc on July 28, 2005, 05:22:40 AM
She was also a guest at dinner party held in honour of Queen Elisabeth II visiting Germany few decades ago...
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 28, 2005, 08:20:28 AM
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She was also a guest at dinner party held in honour of Queen Elisabeth II visiting Germany few decades ago...


She often visited the queen and other British relatives, and was especially  close to the Prince of Wales.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 28, 2005, 10:12:37 AM
Quote
I have recently seen a nice photo showing Princess Diana and Prince Charles of Wales visiting Wolfsgarten shortly after their engagement. It seems so unreal that they should have stayed here - so near to us as one normally saw them just in TV or yellowpress.
Prince Charles says that he has known Wolfsgarten and its owners since he is able to think. He loved his Godfather and "Aunt Peg" and when she died her and the Duke of Edinburgh came to attend her funeral.
I wonder whether the connections are still that close - though I cannot imaginge...

There are several window panes at Wolfsgarten in which some royal and non-royal guests have scratched their names in with a diamond (Nicholas and Alexandra were the first ones to do it in 1896).
How I'd wish to be able to see the interior of the mainbuilding one day...



Thomas,  I think the visit of the Prince and Princess of Wales to Darmstadt was in 1984, three years after their marriage.  They were guests at the birthday party for PRincess Georg Wihelm of Hannover (Princess Sophie, Philip's sister.)  The birthday party was held at Kronberg, and the press barely caught wind of it, actually.  Charles and Diana were able to go to Germany and attend this party without the media catching on until months later.  I stayed with the Langenburgs in September and saw pictures from the party, and when I got to Wolfsgarten, Pss Margaret gave me a copy of the official photo with all the guests - the photo was taken on the steps at Kronberg.  

I used the photo in my book with Princess Sophie's permission.

I've seen the "diamond" window.  The nursery also has a height chart for the children with their names written on the wall ...
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Christopher on July 28, 2005, 10:42:20 AM
Could someone provide a little background on Princess Margaret.  I know she was born Margaret Geddes.  Who were her parents and how did she meet her husband?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 28, 2005, 10:48:52 AM
Quote
Could someone provide a little background on Princess Margaret.  I know she was born Margaret Geddes.  Who were her parents and how did she meet her husband?



She was born the Hon. Margaret Geddes, as her father was Lord Geddes (a diplomat, who was based at the British embassy in DC in the 30s)  ... Margaret and Ludwig met while skiing.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: rita on July 28, 2005, 04:50:38 PM
Her father was diplomat 1920 -1924. Before this time he was professor for anatomie in Edingburgh, 1909 Royal Call of Surgeons, Ireland, 1913 University Montreal, 1917 - 1920 minister of National Service. 1906 he married Isabella Gamble Ross daughter of Willam A.R. of Staten Island NY. Margret was the 3. child. She had two elder and two younger brothers.
aus: Notizen zur Ortsgeschichte Band 8,S.37
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Bsquared on July 28, 2005, 05:46:42 PM
I am interested in how Lu and Peg Hesse managed to survive under Hitler-with her being an enemy national.  Were they forced to leave Germany to Switzerland or did they escape before Hitler could get his hands on them.  It is a wonder Wolfsgarten survived the war.  I know Lu and Peg were still in Darmstadt in 1939 when Princess Johanna died. Did they leave there treasures behind or hide them?

I know they were very helpful to refugees among the family and retainers after the war, including the Hesse Kassel family.  
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marc on July 29, 2005, 08:00:41 AM
Are there some more pictures of her?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 29, 2005, 08:58:07 AM
Quote


Thank you Rita for this information. I wondered are there any surviving relatives of the Princess from among these brothers?



Plenty - - you will find the Geddes family in Debrett's Peerage or Burkes Peerage/
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 29, 2005, 09:02:21 AM
Quote
I am interested in how Lu and Peg Hesse managed to survive under Hitler-with her being an enemy national.  Were they forced to leave Germany to Switzerland or did they escape before Hitler could get his hands on them.  It is a wonder Wolfsgarten survived the war.  I know Lu and Peg were still in Darmstadt in 1939 when Princess Johanna died. Did they leave there treasures behind or hide them?

I know they were very helpful to refugees among the family and retainers after the war, including the Hesse Kassel family.  



They stayed in Germany.  After the war's end,  Wolfsgarten became the place for German royals to gather and meet - especially the ones who had to flee the east.  Cecilie of Prussia met her husband, Clyde Harris at Wolfsgarten.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 29, 2005, 09:03:36 AM
Quote
Princess Margaret's nationality was of great help after the English and American came to Germany - much was made possible for her due to her Scotish birth.
Her relative, Landgräfin Mafalda had to pay for her Italian nationality...



Margaret was born in Dublin, Ireland.  She was not born in Scotland.

Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 29, 2005, 10:40:30 AM
Quote

But she was a Scotswoman - as I think that the Campbells are one the the eldest branches of Scotish nobility. With "birth" I meant origin.



Campbell is a rather common surname, and there are plenty of Campbells in Ireland as well. The Geddes' were an Anglo-Irish family.  The peerage created for Sir Auckland (baron Geddes) was an Irish peerage.  Campbell was a family name - Margaret's paternal grandfather was also Auckland Campbell Geddes.  
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Christopher on July 29, 2005, 12:38:17 PM
From Debrett's:

The Hon. Margaret Campbell, nee Geddes, da. of 1 Baron Geddes; b. 1913, m. 1937, Prince Louis (Ludwig) Hermann Alexander Chlodwig of Hesse. Adopted Son: Prince Moritz of Hesse.  Living at Wolfsgarten in 1982.

At least 4 brothers: the 2nd Baron Geddes (not sure of name); David; John; and Alexander, who married HSH Princess Marie-Anne of Salm-Reiffersheidt.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: rita on July 29, 2005, 03:53:17 PM
The name of the eldest brother was Ross
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on July 29, 2005, 05:58:10 PM
Quote


Campbell is a rather common surname, and there are plenty of Campbells in Ireland as well. The Geddes' were an Anglo-Irish family.  The peerage created for Sir Auckland (baron Geddes) was an Irish peerage.  Campbell was a family name - Margaret's paternal grandfather was also Auckland Campbell Geddes.  


One genealogy said this:
Auckland L. of Rolvenden GEDDES
Does the 'L' stand for Lord or, if it is Scottish, Laird? And shouldn't it be Baron anyway?  ???
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on July 29, 2005, 06:01:00 PM
This was listed in 2002:

the London Sinfonietta will also be performing the UK premiere of Hans Werner Henze's Trauer-Ode für Margaret Geddes, a work composed by Henze in 1997 as a tribute to his friend, HRH The Princess of Hesse and the Rhine. The Princess's departure from the world left Henze, in his own words, 'with great chagrin and an awkward feeling of irreparable loss and void'. His tribute is in the form of a six-part motet for cellos 'reflecting pain, loss and sorrow'.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on July 29, 2005, 06:03:54 PM
Warm woman that she seems to be (and shown in that one sweet portrait of her and Johanna in QV's Family) it's a shame they didn't have children of their own.

Considering that Alice & Vicky were so close though, it's interesting that the head of the house is Vicky's great-grandson. Another aside is that Cecile's sister Sophie had married Moritz's uncle Christopher of Hesse.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 29, 2005, 06:25:05 PM
Quote

One genealogy said this:
Auckland L. of Rolvenden GEDDES
Does the 'L' stand for Lord or, if it is Scottish, Laird? And shouldn't it be Baron anyway?  ???



Laird is a feudal title.  

The fifth grade of the Scottish peerage is Lord of Parliament (the equivalent of Baron).

My mistake - Geddes is not an Irish peerage, but a UK Peerage, created in 1942.  Baron Geddes of Rolvenden in the county of Kent.

The family was originally Scots.  Campbell may have been a family name, but not a maternal surname for Margaret's paternal grandmother nor great-grandmother (both if which were surnamed Anderson)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Bsquared on July 29, 2005, 06:38:28 PM
Was Prince Ludwig of  Hesse Charles' godfather, or that of Prince Andrew?

I am glad that Prince Philip and family kept the close relationship with the Hesse Darmstadt family that was such an interesting aspect of his background and childhood.

I believe Lu and Peg gave a Fabrege box of Tsarist (Nicky or Alix) provenance to Philip and the Queen as a wedding present.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 29, 2005, 10:29:37 PM
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Was Prince Ludwig of  Hesse Charles' godfather, or that of Prince Andrew?

.


Neither.  Prince Louis of Hesse and by Rhine was Prince Edward's godfather, along with the Duchess of Kent (Pss Marina stood proxy)  Princess Georg Wilhelm of Hannover,  PRince Richard of Gloucester, and the Earl of Snowdon.

This is why the prince was named  Edward Antony Richard Louis
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 30, 2005, 04:30:40 PM
Quote

Prince Ludwig was the Prince of Wales's Godfather!

.



No,  Ludwig was NOT Charles' godfather.  He was Edward's godfather.  Charles' godparents were KIng George VI, Queen Mary, PRincess Margaret, the KIng of Norway (Haakon),  Prince George of Greece, the Dowager Marchioness of MIlford Haven, Lady Brabourne and the Hon David Bowes Lyon.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Bsquared on July 30, 2005, 05:42:12 PM
I read about the Fabrege gift in a book on the Jewels of the British Royal Family- which one I do not know. I think that was a great gift, given the giver and historical associations with Prince Philips family.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Bsquared on July 31, 2005, 06:58:23 AM
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/bio_christened.htm

This is the Prince of Wales official website, discussing his Christening. Prince Ludwig is not mentioned.  Perhaps Prince Ludwig was a confirmation sponsor or Prince Charles was mistaken. He had quite an array of sponsors representing all sides of his family.  
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: rita on July 31, 2005, 08:44:18 AM
There are thinks standing at a paper and there are people standing next the heart. I think Ludwig was an unwritten godfather of Charles or in other words called: Lieblingsonkel.
I hope someone has a good translation for this item, my english is not so god.
But the list of the godparents of the Windsors is very interesting and royal political. ;)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 31, 2005, 05:59:57 PM
Quote

Well if you are 100% sure it is certainly no problem for you explaining to me why The Prince of Wales himself (!) writes in his entry printed in "Margaret - Prinzessin von Hessen und bei Rhein: Ein Gedenkbuch" (H.L.Schlapp)

"Having known Princess Margaret of Hesse and the Rhine ever since I can remember (she saw me first when I was only a few hours old...), she very soon became an important feature in my life, as did her husband, Prince Ludwig, who was also my Godfather..."

I have just quoted this when writing my entry and I think he knows better who his Godparents are than one of us - no matter if they know some Royals or not!.



I would expect that Charles was referring to Ludwig as a godfather in a different sense of the word, but not as a sponsor at his baptism.    

I have on front of me the official listing for Charles' baptism published in the Court Circular in The Times (12-16-1948)

To quote:  The Sponsors were The King, Queen Mary, The Princess Margaret, Major General the Earl of Athlone (who stood proxy for the King of Norway), the Duke of Edinburgh (who stood proxy for Prince George of Greece), the Dowager Marchioness of Milford Haven, the Lady Brabourne and the Hon. David Bowes-Lyon.

In 1948, it would have been unthinkable for the British royals to name a German prince as a godfather for the future king.

The Times (December 16. 1948) includes further details as well as the guests at the christening.  The NYTimes had a front page article on the Christening.   You will also find a list of godparents in numerous biographies, as well as photos of the godparents.  

On the contrary, Prince Edward's sponsors were The Duchess of Kent (for whom Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent, stood proxy, Princess George of Hanover, Prince Richard of Gloucester, the Earl of Snowdon and PRINCE LOUIS OF HESSE.


Charles used to refer to Lord Mountbatten as a grandfather,  as in honorary grandfather, even though Louis was a great uncle.


However, Ludwig was not a sponsor at his baptism.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 31, 2005, 06:03:15 PM
Quote
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/about/bio_christened.htm

This is the Prince of Wales official website, discussing his Christening. Prince Ludwig is not mentioned.  Perhaps Prince Ludwig was a confirmation sponsor or Prince Charles was mistaken. He had quite an array of sponsors representing all sides of his family.  



There is no such thing as a confirmation sponsor .. confirmation is largely the reaffirmation of your baptism vows.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: rita on July 31, 2005, 06:23:08 PM
Dear Marlene,
confirmation is more than reaffirmation of the baptism vows, it is the grown up adult into the church. The reaffirmation is a little part of confirmation.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Bsquared on July 31, 2005, 08:50:25 PM
Roman Catholics have Confirmation sponsors, I did.  Not sure if this is done in other religions.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on July 31, 2005, 09:16:53 PM
I did as well (and am RC). Since the Anglican Church is similar to the CC perhaps they follow the rite?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 31, 2005, 09:29:33 PM
Quote
Dear Marlene,
confirmation is more than reaffirmation of the baptism vows, it is the grown up adult into the church. The reaffirmation is a little part of confirmation.



As a practicing Lutheran, I can assure you I am well-familiar with Confirmation -- as one is only 14-16 at the time of confirmation, one is not a grown up adult.  I went to Confirmation classes for 2 years.   A major part of the ceremony is a reaffirmation of the baptismal vows, first made by our sponsors at our baptism.

It was a 2 year course where we read (memorized) Luther's Small Catechism, as well as explore our faith.  It also prepared us for receiving the Sacrament of Holy Communion, because in the late 60s, one had to be confirmed before one could receive the Sacrament.  That has since changed.  It also required a written exam and an oral exam given by the church council.  But we were neither adults nor grown ups, although we became full fledged members of a congregation.   We are confirming what was said at the baptism.  Nearly 40 years later, I can still recite parts of the Small Cathecshim, and that's scary.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on July 31, 2005, 09:54:38 PM
Quote
I did as well (and am RC). Since the Anglican Church is similar to the CC perhaps they follow the rite?


The Anglican and LUtheran confirmation services are similar in nature. Confirmation is one of the 7 Sacraments in the RC church.  Neither the Anglicans nor the Lutherans see confirmation as a Sacrament.  Both churches have only 2 sacraments (baptism and holy communion), although the Anglicans refer to these as major sacraments.  Confirmation, marriage, etc., are considered by the Anglican church as "minor sacramental acts."  Lutherans have only 2 sacraments -   marriage, confirmation, etc., are not considered sacramental.

Back to Charles ... he was confirmed privately by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Dean of Windsor, at Windsor, when he was 16.  The service took place at the Royal Chapel at Windsor castle on April 13, 1965.   The only persons present were the Queen and PRince Philip,  Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon, and Andrew and Anne.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: rita on August 01, 2005, 05:00:44 AM
Dear Marlene, you tell me no news about confirmation. Incidentally you have written what I try to put in words,but I think no fledged members I think serious members of the church
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bluetoria on August 01, 2005, 06:37:55 AM
Quote


There is no such thing as a confirmation sponsor .. confirmation is largely the reaffirmation of your baptism vows.


I know that Confirmation is not a Sacrament in the C. of E. (unlike in Catholicism) but my nephew, who was confirmed in the C. of E. had a confirmation sponsor, as did the others who were confirmed with him.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bluetoria on August 01, 2005, 06:59:46 AM
Ohh, that's interesting, Helen. Here in England we (I'm RC too) always have sponsors at confirmation. There is a special card which the confirmees are given in which it is necessary to name a sponsor.

To return to Princess Margaret....hmmm... ;)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on August 01, 2005, 09:33:37 AM
Quote
Dear Marlene, you tell me no news about confirmation. Incidentally you have written what I try to put in words,but I think no fledged members I think serious members of the church


Rita, I have  no idea what you are talking about ...
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on August 01, 2005, 09:34:51 AM
Quote

I know that Confirmation is not a Sacrament in the C. of E. (unlike in Catholicism) but my nephew, who was confirmed in the C. of E. had a confirmation sponsor, as did the others who were confirmed with him.



It may be a local church practice, depending on the congregation (re C/E).  Our congregation has sponsors for new members ...
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: rita on August 01, 2005, 10:00:31 AM
 Dear Helen, what is RC?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bluetoria on August 01, 2005, 10:42:05 AM
Quote

Now that I think of it, I am not surprised that Roman Catholics don't have confirmation sponsors in the Netherlands. Perhaps there was a time we had, but so many traditions have disappeared, and a lot of Dutch people don't seem to care. That's one of the things I like about England, that people have an eye for the past, for style and for traditions, at least more than we have. :)


Ah, Helen, the Dutch are such religious rebels  ;D. I recall it was nearly always recent Dutch theologians who had their books sent for scrutiny by the Vatican & came in for a lot of criticism - for this I GREATLY admire the Dutch!  ;)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bluetoria on August 01, 2005, 10:48:23 AM
Quote
...but I think no fledged members I think serious members of the church


Rita, would that I spoke even a smattering of German  as well as you speak English! I'm sorry I didn't quite understand what you meant here - did you mean that people are not Confirmed as new members of the Church, but rather that they are confirmed when they have been in the Church for some time and have studied it thoroughly?  :)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: rita on August 01, 2005, 10:56:37 AM
Thanks  bluetoria, I mean the baptism is the part and the decision of the parents and the confirmation is  the own decision of the confirmand, so I mean serious member of the church or what is the right word?
Sorry for my english but I learn in this forum.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on August 01, 2005, 11:02:35 AM
Quote

Rita, would that I spoke even a smattering of German  as well as you speak English! I'm sorry I didn't quite understand what you meant here - did you mean that people are not Confirmed as new members of the Church, but rather that they are confirmed when they have been in the Church for some time and have studied it thoroughly?  :)



I too am confused.  I think Rita may be talking about the Lutheran tradition.  You become a member of the Church when you are baptised.  After the baptism ceremony, which is almost always done as a part of the regular service, Pastor takes the baby in his arms and walks down the aisle, introducing the baby as the newest member of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church, and the newest member of the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world.   Confirmation does not make one an official member of a local church as many people join the church without ever being confirmed.  
(BTW, if the person is an adult when baptised, Pastor doesnt carry the person down the aisle ...but says the same thing.)  Non Lutherans who join the church don't go through a confirmation - all new members attend a six week class, and then are welcomed into the congregation.  We recently had an adult baptism (he converted from Judiasm) and then he and his wife became members of our congregation ..

However, Confirmation is usually done between 14 adn 16, and usually a 2 year process ...
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on August 01, 2005, 04:23:22 PM
Quote from: Helen Too much rebellion leads to lawlessness. :-/
[/quote



for some of us rebellion leads to reformation  :)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bluetoria on August 01, 2005, 05:12:02 PM
Quote
Thanks  bluetoria, I mean the baptism is the part and the decision of the parents and the confirmation is  the own decision of the confirmand, so I mean serious member of the church or what is the right word?
Sorry for my english but I learn in this forum.


Please don't apologize, Rita, your English is very good.  :) Thank you for explaining what you meant. I think the word you were looking for may have been "committed" - a "committed member of the church."  :)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 03, 2005, 07:06:55 AM
Hi everyone.  :)

I have a (probably very silly) question - I'm pretty sure that Prince Ludwig of Hesse's marriage to Margaret Geddes was not considered morganatic. Why was this? Was it not an 'unequal' marriage? And did none of Ludwig's family resent his marrying a commoner?

Thanks in advance.   ;)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 03, 2005, 08:18:33 AM
Maybe because his father had lost his throne in 1918? :-/
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 03, 2005, 10:10:43 AM
True, but I would have thought that the Hessians, like most royals-in-exile, still regarded rules relating to things like marriage as if they were still in power . . .
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bluetoria on November 03, 2005, 10:13:53 AM
It always seemed to me that morganatic marriages kind of faded with the end of WWI??  :-/ You don't hear of them now, do you?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 03, 2005, 10:14:16 AM
Quote
True, but I would have thought that the Hessians, like most royals-in-exile, still regarded rules relating to things like marriage as if they were still in power . . .


Then I'm stumped.....
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 03, 2005, 10:18:33 AM
Quote
It always seemed to me that morganatic marriages kind of faded with the end of WWI??  :-/ You don't hear of them now, do you?


Yes, I suppose because very suddenly marriage to a foreign princess was not as glamorous - or important - as it had once been. But where either Ernie or Eleonore upset by Ludwig's choice of bride?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on November 03, 2005, 06:11:50 PM
It seemed to lose importance except for those (deposed) thrones that still clung to hopes of restoration--ie the Romanovs. Places like Hesse, which had their GD deposed almost 20 years prior, probably didn't place much importance on it. It was most likely individual houses--I think there were issues in the Bavarian royal family as well. Also, at the time of the engagement, Louis was behind his father, brother and 2 nephews. There really wasn't any reason to think his marriage was important dynastically.

From what I've read which, granted, is limited, Ernie seemed pleased with Louis's choice. I don't know about Onor but she didn't seem the type to raise objections to his choice--she was a pretty minor princess herself in the first place. The stamp of approval seemed to be on it by the fact that the entire family (including Ernie in the original date before he died) was planning on attending.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 03, 2005, 06:15:50 PM
Thanks GDella. Margaret seemed like a nice woman anyway.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 04, 2005, 12:48:45 AM
I know that it is still an issue within the Hohenzollern family. There have been recent court cases in Germany about whether it is possible for Hohenzollerns to disinherit family members who marry morganatically.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 04, 2005, 08:01:55 AM
Yes, I heard that too Bell. :-/

BTW, out of curiousity, Margaret was a 'the Hon' wasn't she? Which British noble family was she a scion of?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 04, 2005, 08:45:54 AM
Quote
Yes, I heard that too Bell. :-/

BTW, out of curiousity, Margaret was a 'the Hon' wasn't she? Which British noble family was she a scion of?


Her father was Auckland Campbell Geddes, 1st Baron Geddes of Rolvenden - so it wasn't an ancient line!

In fact the title was only created in 1942 for Auckland (according to Wikipedia!), who was a conservative politician and former Ambassador to the US.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Lieven on November 04, 2005, 08:53:13 AM
Thanks Bell.  :)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 04, 2005, 12:30:37 PM
I totally agree that morganetic marriages are out of tune with the times.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Prince_Christopher on November 04, 2005, 08:02:33 PM

I find it interesting that one of Margaret's brothers, Alexander Geddes, also married into German royalty.  He married HSH Princess Marie-Anne of Salm-Reiffersheidt.

Does anyone know anything about this couple?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: bell_the_cat on November 05, 2005, 03:24:36 AM
Quote

You should check this link out:
http://members3.boardhost.com/germanaustrian/msg/27607.html


Thanks grandduchessella!

I don't know what the situation in the US is, but in Germany you can't completely disinherit your children. They automatically receive a percentage of your estate ("Pflichtanteil"). They're have been cases fought in the courts were people serving life sentences for murdering their parents have successfully claimed their "Pflichtanteil".

While I don't agree with the "Pflichtanteil" system - in the UK you can leave your money to whomever you want -I don't see why there should be an exception for former ruling houses on the absurd question of morganatic marriages!
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: imperial angel on April 20, 2006, 11:59:28 AM
I would say that by then, the rules about morgantic marriages didn't apply so much, at least in Hesse-Darmstadt, and it is correct to point out that Onor, although royalty, was very minor royalty by the standards of Hesse marriages before World War I.  It is unfortunate they had no children, but I suppose one reason why he married someone who could be considered so low ranking, was because he wasn't the heir. The Hesse family, had there been descendants would have strengthed their blood ties in England further if the heirs of Hesse had Margaret's blood.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: imperial angel on April 20, 2006, 12:11:38 PM
I agree with everyone who posted about the tragedies of the Hesse family, the plane crash, and then little Johanna dying, yet another little Hessian Princess who died about that age. I am sure Louis and Margaret tried to be good substitues for parents to her, and were devastated when she died. Then they never had children, so it would have been perfect if Johanna had lived, as their adopted child, and the Hessian heir. Could the line have passed down through her, had she lived, according to Succesion laws? Margaret seems to have been a very nice and interesting woman, after reading this thread. She and her husband certainly saw many tragedies of the family.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Sissi on December 20, 2006, 03:57:13 PM
I think this picture has not been posted:
Margaret and little Johanna:

(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e160/kedvesem/hessemargaretJohana.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 12, 2008, 07:08:12 AM
Louis:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-19430.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-17608.png)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 12, 2008, 07:13:34 AM
Ludwig and Margaret:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-19909.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-19818.png)

Margaret:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-18562.png)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 12, 2008, 07:16:17 AM
Ludwig and Margaret With the daughter of George:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-19515.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-19576.png)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 12, 2008, 12:58:00 PM
Nice pics of Loo, Peg & Johanna. She died too soon. She would have been a beautiful Princess (like her mother) and head of her house.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Gabriella on September 12, 2008, 07:44:07 PM
Alexandre64,
thanks for posting the pictures of Lu and Peg of Hesse and little Johanna. They were a nice little family and it's sad that Johanna died so young.
Lu and Peg would have been good parents to her.

It's also sad that they had no children of théir own for both liked children very much and got along with children. Whether it's the Prince of Wales and his siblings or Landgraf Moritz of Hesse and his brothers or the children of Prince Christoph of Hesse and Sophie of Greece they all liked them and felt comfort and understood by them.



Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2008, 11:43:56 AM
Both Lu & Peg helped Sophie with the children after the war years. It was that close relationship that resulted in Peg naming Prince Moritz heir to the title & fortune of the House of Hesse & By Rhine.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 13, 2008, 01:46:42 PM
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/johannajpg193619391.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 13, 2008, 02:08:53 PM
She was beautiful. She would be asbeautiful as her mother had she grown up...
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 28, 2008, 03:56:37 AM
Margaret:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/margaret.jpg)

Margaret and Ludwig:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-22865.png)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 29, 2008, 01:24:00 AM
Ludwig and Margaret, out of the Church:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-24053.png)


Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Alexandre64 on September 29, 2008, 01:27:30 AM
During the war Wolfsgarten:

Margaret:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-26961.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-27093.png)

Margaret, Ludwig and children:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-26473.png)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-26583.png)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 29, 2008, 01:14:51 PM
Princess Sophie of Greece (Princess Christoph Of Hesse Kassel) was also in the photo with her children.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Seth Leonard on March 11, 2009, 08:53:10 PM
Clip of Prince Ludwig and Princess Margaret with the children of Philipp and Mafalda von Hessen~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM3xfANLQug&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Gabriella on March 25, 2009, 03:52:58 PM
Clip of Prince Ludwig and Princess Margaret with the children of Philipp and Mafalda von Hessen~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM3xfANLQug&feature=channel_page


Thanks for posting the link. It was also posted in another thread.

Thanks for posting the short video. It's well done.

The video pays tribute to Princess Margaret of Hesse (Peg) (1913-1997), born Margaret Campbell-Geddes, the wife of Prince Louis of Hesse (Lu) (1908-1968). THey were seen in the beginning of the video together with another woman and 4 children. She is the woman walking the dog. The other one looks like Sophie of Greece (Tiny) (1914-2001), the fourth and youngest daughter of Andrew of Greece and Alice of Battenberg.

According to the title the children should be the four children of Mafalda of Savoy and Philipp of Hesse: Moritz (b. 1926), Heinrich (1927-1999), Otto (1937-1998 ) and and their sister Elizabeth (B.1940).

For the children shown in the video are very close in age and were accompanied by Sophie I guess it's Otto and Elizabeth together with their cousins Carl (b. 1937) and Rainer (b. 1939), Sophie's two boys from her first marriage.

Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Ally Kumari on August 05, 2009, 08:49:41 AM
Ludwig with his wife Margaret
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff287/VelkokneznaMaria/Hesse/ludwigwife.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on August 07, 2009, 03:14:34 AM
I feel so sorry for Margaret, her in laws die on the way to her wedding and she raises her baby niece as her own until the child died at the age of three, and was childless. she looks sad and lonely in her later years.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on August 07, 2009, 11:35:45 AM
Hers was certainly a tragic fate in many ways - but Princess Margaret was an life-affirming person. Of that there can be no doubt whatsoever. She had a multitude of duties (self created duties) and she loved and mastered them up to an old age.
After suffering a stroke she lost an eye and retired from many of her former obligations.

It was most important to her to "keep the lights on" as concerned the heritage of her late husband's important family
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marlene on August 10, 2009, 10:31:56 AM

Margaret was neither sad nor lonely in her later years.  She was close to family in Germany and in the UK (including the British royal family.)  I had lunch with her and a few others at Schloss Wolfsgarten the day after Prince Henry was born - and we wet his head with champagne.  She had many interests including music ...and I would never use the words sad or lonely regarding Peg Hesse.

I feel so sorry for Margaret, her in laws die on the way to her wedding and she raises her baby niece as her own until the child died at the age of three, and was childless. she looks sad and lonely in her later years.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on August 11, 2009, 04:47:15 AM

Being the last member of the Hesse-Darmstadt dynasty definitely left its mark on her - she would often talk about the terrible plain crash and her coming to Darmstadt as a "black bride".
Nonetheless: we won't forget her - one could not have wished for a better "top" of the family tree

Service held on occasion of Princess Margaret's 80th birthday, Darmstadt March 18th 1993. With Moritz Landgraf von Hessen and The Prince of Wales (whose photograph is still to be seen on the piano in the Grand Salon at Wolfsgarten; Margaret's husband was one of his Godfathers)
(http://www.joc-foto.de/joc_foto/img/bilder/prince_charles.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on August 11, 2009, 04:52:27 AM
At the funeral of Lord Mountbatten of Burma - 1979

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3383/3279964746_237f5c9b32.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on August 13, 2009, 07:05:25 AM

Prinz Ludwig (1960ies)

(http://www.intef.de/images/an_Prinzl_12.jpg)

(http://www.intef.de/images/an_Prinzl_14.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: mcvidmar on January 04, 2010, 09:25:30 PM
Hello all,

I am an American musicologist who is researching the very close and touching friendship between Benjamin Britten and the Prince & Princess of Hesse. I spent part of the summer in Britten's home in Aldeburgh, where I read the complete extant correspondence between Britten and both the Prince and Princess. After finishing, I was amazed at the power of their story, and I felt that they came across as some of the most thoroughly kindhearted and remarkable persons about whom I had ever read.

Britten worked closely with Prince Ludwig, who (under the name "Ludwig Landgraf") translated the English texts for the published editions of a number of Britten's scores. I am writing in particular about Britten's never-completed cycle of Goethe settings. He composed only one, on the poem "Um Mitternacht," but had marked in an anthology another 13 poems which he had intended to set. Apparently, Britten lost interest in the project--but Princess Margaret wrote to Britten in May of 1968 that, while he lay delirious in hospital, Prince Ludwig talked endlessly of "his dream: Ben & Goethe."

I would like to tell the amazing story of the Prince & Princess's friendship with Britten to the musicological community, but I simply cannot find much biographical information about them at all. There are a few bits and pieces in English about Princess Margaret, but I would particularly like to find out more about Prince Ludwig. I cannot believe that nobody has written a biography about him. Is there anyone who knows of biographical sources that I could consult, or who knew them and could offer information of their own? Ich kann Deutsch lesen!

With many thanks in advance,

Michael Vidmar-McEwen
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2010, 09:44:43 PM
There wasn't a biography in English that dealt with Prince Ludwig and Margaret of Hesse & By Rhine. First there is one in German on the life of Margaret of Hesse that you can buy in Darmstadt or order from German booksites online. Another good one is the the bio of Prince Richard Of Hesse-Kassel (brother of the head of the Hesse Royal House Landgraf Moritz) that is also in German. He was the child of Princess Malfelda of Italy who died in the war and raised by Ludwig and Margaret of Hesse. In English, there is "Hessien Tavesty" that deals from Princess Alice down to Prince Ludwig & Princess Margaret. A more basic source.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on January 05, 2010, 01:38:59 PM
It's Hessian Tapestry. It touches very little on the family after the immediate family (ie Victoria down to Alix) dies out. Ludwig and Margaret aren't mentioned much, save for their wedding tragedy, and the book was written c. 1976.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on January 06, 2010, 03:58:08 PM
Hello all,

I am an American musicologist who is researching the very close and touching friendship between Benjamin Britten and the Prince & Princess of Hesse. I spent part of the summer in Britten's home in Aldeburgh, where I read the complete extant correspondence between Britten and both the Prince and Princess. After finishing, I was amazed at the power of their story, and I felt that they came across as some of the most thoroughly kindhearted and remarkable persons about whom I had ever read.

Britten worked closely with Prince Ludwig, who (under the name "Ludwig Landgraf") translated the English texts for the published editions of a number of Britten's scores. I am writing in particular about Britten's never-completed cycle of Goethe settings. He composed only one, on the poem "Um Mitternacht," but had marked in an anthology another 13 poems which he had intended to set. Apparently, Britten lost interest in the project--but Princess Margaret wrote to Britten in May of 1968 that, while he lay delirious in hospital, Prince Ludwig talked endlessly of "his dream: Ben & Goethe."

I would like to tell the amazing story of the Prince & Princess's friendship with Britten to the musicological community, but I simply cannot find much biographical information about them at all. There are a few bits and pieces in English about Princess Margaret, but I would particularly like to find out more about Prince Ludwig. I cannot believe that nobody has written a biography about him. Is there anyone who knows of biographical sources that I could consult, or who knew them and could offer information of their own? Ich kann Deutsch lesen!

With many thanks in advance,

Michael Vidmar-McEwen

did write you a personal message.........
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2010, 05:38:35 PM
I think a book in English on Ludwig and Peg Hesse is in order.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Riedesel on January 07, 2010, 05:13:08 AM
There is a book (in German) in memory of Princess Margaret.

Margaret Prinzessin von Hessen und bei Rhein von Eckhart G. Franz und Karl-Eugen Schlapp von Schlapp (Gebundene Ausgabe - 1997) ISBN 3-87704-039-X

apparently available from amazon.de :
http://www.amazon.de/Margaret-Prinzessin-von-Hessen-Rhein/dp/387704039X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262862253&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.de/Margaret-Prinzessin-von-Hessen-Rhein/dp/387704039X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262862253&sr=1-1)

They are in VERY limited numbers. The Schlapp book shop in Darmstadt still has about 10 left which they are selling for the ridiculous price of 4.95 euros. :-)

Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: mcvidmar on January 12, 2010, 07:15:38 PM
Dear Thomas & all,

First of all, Thomas, I have been trying to send you a reply for days now, but cannot figure out how to get a personal message to send--I keep receiving an error that suggests I must enter some kind of security code ("type the letters in the box"), but I don't see anywhere that I can comply. Instead of wait any longer, I've decided to post directly to the message board and see if it works.

Thanks very much for your timely reply! I'm sorry that I'm just now figuring out how to use this forum to send a reply and thank you for your kind help.

I have ordered the *Hessian Tapestry* book as well as various writings from Prince Ludwig, which I hope will arrive at my library quite soon. And thank you especially for putting me in touch with Prof. Franz, who is the editor of one of the volumes I have ordered.

I have much to learn about Hesse and Darmstadt--which seems to be a remarkable place indeed! I'm looking forward to becoming more enlightened about it.

Thank you again for your kindness and your help!

Best wishes,

Michael
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: allanraymond on January 13, 2010, 10:51:30 AM
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned that Joachim von Ribbentrop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_von_Ribbentrop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_von_Ribbentrop)  was  one of the witnesses at the wedding of  Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes?

Allan Raymond
 

Ludwig and Margaret, out of the Church:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Hesse/vlcsnap-24053.png)



Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Ilana on January 13, 2010, 10:54:12 AM
We'll try not to hold that against them... bad times.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: allanraymond on January 13, 2010, 01:20:23 PM
Of course they wouldn't have been aware at the time of Ribbentrop's future involvement in WWII.

On the positive side in the exceptional circumstances, other witnesses at the wedding were Victoria Marchioness of Milford Haven and her sons George & Louis plus Margaret's parents

Allan Raymond

We'll try not to hold that against them... bad times.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Riedesel on January 15, 2010, 06:51:03 AM
Ribentrop was the Ambassador to Great Britain at the time. Prinz Ludwig was a member of the Diplomatic Staff in London. It is only logical that Ribentrop would have been at the wedding. I hope this won't start a discussion on the ethics of the House of Hesse in the mid 20th century..... :-(
It reminds one of the recent fuss about Prince Philip attending a "Nazi" funeral, for goodness sake!
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Kalafrana on January 15, 2010, 10:31:40 AM
'Ribentrop was the Ambassador to Great Britain at the time. Prinz Ludwig was a member of the Diplomatic Staff in London. It is only logical that Ribentrop would have been at the wedding. I hope this won't start a discussion on the ethics of the House of Hesse in the mid 20th century..... :-(
It reminds one of the recent fuss about Prince Philip attending a "Nazi" funeral, for goodness sake!'

Indeed. We have to beware of hindsight. One would expect Prince Ludwig to invite his boss, and for Ribbentrop, who was a great social climber, to go (he got the 'von' by persuading an aunt to adopt him after he was well into adulthood).

I am reminded of the furore in the tabloid press in Britain a few years ago when it emerged that Princess Michael of Kent's father had been in the Waffen SS. Reprehensible though this might have been, it was rather unfair to blame Princess Michael, who had yet to be born at the time and never even met her father until she was a teenager (her parents separated before her birth).

Ann
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 15, 2010, 11:10:30 AM
Well...The Royal Family was (and still is) related to their relatives in Germany. Hard not to associate with at least one who did not have ties to the Nazi Party. One must be careful and not to confuse guilty with guilty by association.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: allanraymond on January 15, 2010, 01:36:25 PM
What you say is quite correct.

My original posting was only to say Ribbentrop was a witness to their wedding (as opposed to just attending) and as such it wasn't intended to convey anything more  sinister.

Allan Raymond   



Ribentrop was the Ambassador to Great Britain at the time. Prinz Ludwig was a member of the Diplomatic Staff in London. It is only logical that Ribentrop would have been at the wedding. I hope this won't start a discussion on the ethics of the House of Hesse in the mid 20th century..... :-(
It reminds one of the recent fuss about Prince Philip attending a "Nazi" funeral, for goodness sake!
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2010, 11:33:09 AM
Thanks Allan,

The Nazi subject is still touchy today among the royal houses in Germany.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eurohistory on January 18, 2010, 11:28:51 AM
Indeed. We have to beware of hindsight. One would expect Prince Ludwig to invite his boss, and for Ribbentrop, who was a great social climber, to go (he got the 'von' by persuading an aunt to adopt him after he was well into adulthood).

I am reminded of the furore in the tabloid press in Britain a few years ago when it emerged that Princess Michael of Kent's father had been in the Waffen SS. Reprehensible though this might have been, it was rather unfair to blame Princess Michael, who had yet to be born at the time and never even met her father until she was a teenager (her parents separated before her birth).

Ann

Ann, You are correct...historical revisionism tainted by hindsight is a tremendously dangerous thing and only leads to erroneous interpretation among those lacking the knowledge to realize its dangers.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2010, 03:11:02 PM
Well...In the event of war people began to be phobic of anything that have mud stick to it. It happen with any Nazism connection after WW II, The witch-hunts of Communism during the McCarthy era, Japanese interment camps in the US...
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on February 16, 2010, 06:29:14 PM
Margaret Geddes's father, Sir Auckland Geddes

(http://books.google.com/books?id=gYXqFAtHXiIC&pg=PA65&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3ft9zvIXUyWJ1SLd4xf4nXBaj0Aw&ci=521%2C248%2C416%2C564&edge=0)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 16, 2010, 06:48:00 PM
That is quite a surprise. Thanks. Don't know too much about her family I must admit.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: grandduchessella on February 16, 2010, 08:14:34 PM
Auckland Geddes was a member of David Lloyd George's coalition government (he served in various positions) during the latter part of the First World War (his brother Eric was First Lord of the Admiralty) in the Coalition Govt--Geddes was a member of the Conservative party. Auckland Geddes served in the Second Boer War as a Lieutenant (3rd class) in the Highland Light Infantry between 1901 and 1902. During the First World War he served as a Major and was on the staff of the General Headquarters in France as a Brevet Lieutenant-Colonel and Honorary Brigadier General. On and off from 1906 until WW1 he served as either an Assistant Professor or Professor Anatomy at various universities. Post-war, he was named Ambassador to the US from 1920-24. He went into private life until WW2 when he returned to public service and was made a Baron in 1943. Margaret was the only daughter.

His brother Eric was known for the quote "We shall squeeze the German lemon until the pips squeak!" which was uttered during a rally before the Versailles Peace Conference in order to stir up support for harsh restitutions and the heavy post-WW1 cuts in public expenditures was known as the Geddes Axe.

Margaret's nephew Euan (born just 2 months before the Ostend tragedy) is the current 3rd Baron Geddes. She had quite a few nieces and nephews--9 just by her brother Alexander (7 by his 1st marriage), who are all still living. It seems long-lived genes run in the family.

Margaret's brother Alexander also married a German (as his 2nd wife) in 1964-- Marie-Anne Altgräfin zu Salm-Reifferscheidt-Krautheim und Dyck, daughter of Franz Josef Fürst zu Salm-Reifferscheidt-Krautheim und Dyck and Cäcilie Prinzessin zu Salm-Salm. Cecile was the granddaughter of Archduke Friedrich and Archduchess Isabella of Austria through their daughter Maria Christina who married Emmanuel of Salm-Salm.

In one of the old Illustrated London News I bought, there was a photo of Auckland Geddes, with his wife and children, including Margaret, preparing to depart for his Ambassadorship. Margaret, then a young teen, resembled her father at that stage, glasses as all!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Auckland_Geddes.png)

her brother Ross, 2nd Baron

(http://thepeerage.com/092098_001.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marc on February 16, 2010, 08:54:54 PM
It is interesting to note the marriage of Hon.Alexander Campbell-Geddes and Marie-Anne,Altgräfin zu Salm-Reifferscheidt-Krautheim und Dyck...I wonder does this kind of "German" marriage has anything to do with his sister Princess Margaret von Hesse und Rhine who lived in Germany or they met separately on their own?

It is also interesting that their son Stephen George Geddes also married a German Countess Clarissa von Hagen zu Plettenberg...again,does this marriage have anything to do with his mother being also a German?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 17, 2010, 12:31:32 PM
Thanks for all this information. Not a lot of books on Hesse (particular in English) included this.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: violetta on November 11, 2010, 07:17:39 AM
I FOUND THIS OBITUARY IN THE INDEPENDENT



Obituary: Princess Margaret of Hesse and the Rhine

Philip Mansel


Thursday, 30 January 1997
Few Englishwomen have adapted so well to German life or played such a prominent part in it as Princess Margaret of Hesse and the Rhine.

She was born in 1913, the daughter of Sir Auckland Geddes (later first Baron Geddes - author of the post-First World War financial cuts known as "the Geddes axe"). Like many of the British between the wars, she went on holiday to Bavaria and fell in love. Her fiance was Prince Ludwig of Hesse- Darmstadt, a son of the last reigning Grand Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt, a middle-ranking state of the former German Empire. She had planned to marry, in 1937, in Bavarian peasant dress. Instead she wore black: five members of her fiance's family had died when the aeroplane taking them to London for the wedding crashed.

"Peg" Hesse was a success in the difficult role of a non- royal foreign bride in an ancient German dynasty, despite her lack of children and the outbreak of the Second World War. Her cheerfulness, efficiency and sense of fun helped. Her house at Wolfsgarten, a Hesse "hunting lodge" the size of a small Oxford college, became an oasis of calm in the turmoil of the war and the Allied occupation.

After the war Wolfsgarten was a centre of culture and entertainment as well. The Princess helped to organise exhibitions and museums in the former Hesse capital of Darmstadt, and the magnificent private collections of the Hesse- Darmstadts were concentrated in Wolfsgarten. They created an unforgettable atmosphere of living history. On one wall was a portrait presented to a Landgrafin of Hesse by her friend Marie Antoinette; in a cellar were photographs of the Hesses' family holidays with Nicholas II of Russia (whose wife was a Hesse) in the Crimea. In the main salon was a suite of furniture left behind by Napoleon. Most of the crowned heads and many writers and politicians of Europe scratched their names on the window-panes of Wolfsgarten, from Golo Mann and Edward Heath to "Elizabeth" and "Philip": Peg Hesse was one of the people through whom the British royal family re-established contact with its German relations after the Second World War.

She continued to preside over her household after the death of her husband "Lu" Hesse, a talented composer, in 1968. Both were intimate friends of Benjamin Britten and Peter Pears, with whom they frequently went on long holidays. Britten often worked at Wolfsgarten, although he found the German Christmas "very holy and serious but inclined to be a bit sloppy and `heilig Nacht' ". The Princess became President of the Aldeburgh Foundation and in 1959 set up the "Hesse Students" scheme to enable young people to attend the Aldeburgh Festival in return for practical help.

Friends from all over the world, and the city of Darmstadt, where she was very popular, contributed to her unique collection of representations of pugs, in porcelain, drawings and paintings.

The Hesse House Foundation, run by Prince Moritz of the Hesse-Kassel branch, now inherits the palaces and works of art of the Hesse-Darmstadts, making it the possessor of one of the finest collections in Europe.

Margaret Campbell Geddes, arts patron: born 1913; married 1937 Prince Ludwig of Hesse and the Rhine (died 1968); died Wolfsgarten, Germany 26 January 1997.

Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Ilana on November 11, 2010, 09:53:17 AM
Nice...an admirable woman!
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: violetta on November 11, 2010, 09:59:03 AM
I think the author of this obituary managed to sum up both her personality and schievements. Bright life! Filled with a lot of activities! She definitely had definite aims in her life.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on June 10, 2011, 01:53:39 PM
For the first time I heard Prinz Ludwig's voice..... inauguration of the Schlossmuseum in 1965. I wonder whether Ernst Ludwig's voice was alike...

watch: 3.25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcgioixPp4s
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 25, 2011, 01:29:13 PM
Princess Margaret of Hesse and the Rhine - shortly before she passed away

(http://m.echo-online.de/;m=is;f=jpg;h=217;k=SxylkJmtmfDtbO_CkigTBw;q=70;w=323/storage/scl/ngen/region/darmstadt/historisch/geschichte/334655_m0w460h300q75v62696_185509_81-15157256_BILD6.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on July 25, 2011, 01:34:59 PM
One of numerous Royal visits to Wolfsgarten: Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip taking the doggies for a walk (on the very staircase the famous group of the Imperial Russian visit was taken in 1910)

With them are Prince Ludwig and Princess Margaret, Princesses Titu Hohenlohe and Thea Windisch Graetz
(http://m.echo-online.de/;m=is;f=jpg;h=214;k=52Gtrtr-47jjZLq-kBwj9g;q=70;w=323/storage/scl/ngen/region/darmstadt/historisch/geschichte/334652_m0w460h300q75v2254_81-15089791_81-15156049_BILD1.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 25, 2011, 05:54:52 PM
I think one of them was the daughter of Margarita of Hohenlohe-Langenburg.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Gabriella on July 31, 2011, 06:49:10 PM
The picture was shot at Wolfsgarten 20th of May 1965. It shows from left to right POrince Ludwig, Queen Elizabeth, Princess Margaret in front with her dogs, behind her Beatrix von Hohenlohe-Langenburg, Dorothea zu Windisch-Grätz and Prince Philip.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 02, 2011, 03:17:24 PM
I think I was referring to Beatrix von Hohenlohe-Langenburg. Don't think she got married.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: JGP on August 23, 2016, 10:57:59 PM
Good evening Mr. Lowe. 

I am a long time lurker on this site and was recently reading the Ludwig & Margaret Geddes Thread when I came upon a post/reply (#107) of yours.  Your post in its entirety is below but the following comment within your post (in quotes) is what puzzles me...

"Another good one is the bio of Prince Richard Of Hesse-Kassel (brother of the head of the Hesse Royal House Landgraf Moritz) that is also in German. He was the child of Princess Malfelda of Italy who died in the war and raised by Ludwig and Margaret of Hesse."

To my knowledge, Princess Mafalda of Savoy did not have a child named Richard nor did Landgraf Moritz have a brother named Richard. Prince Richard of Hesse-Kassel was the son of Princess Margaret of Prussia (Mossy).

Could you elaborate and/or clarify six years later? 

Kind regards,  JGP


Reply #107
« on: January 04, 2010, 08:44:43 PM »
    Eric_Lowe  Offline
Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Reply with quote
There wasn't a biography in English that dealt with Prince Ludwig and Margaret of Hesse & By Rhine. First there is one in German on the life of Margaret of Hesse that you can buy in Darmstadt or order from German booksites online.  Another good one is the the bio of Prince Richard Of Hesse-Kassel (brother of the head of the Hesse Royal House Landgraf Moritz) that is also in German. He was the child of Princess Malfelda of Italy who died in the war and raised by Ludwig and Margaret of Hesse.  In English, there is "Hessien Tavesty" that deals from Princess Alice down to Prince Ludwig & Princess Margaret. A more basic source.
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on August 25, 2016, 07:29:57 AM
He did not mean Richard, but Prince Heinrich "Dendy" of Hesse, the late Landgraf Moritz's brother. His memoirs "Der kristallene Lüster" were published a couple of years before his death
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Marc on August 27, 2016, 11:11:39 AM
Few years ago, I watched somewhere a footage of an old state visit of Queen Elizabeth II to Germany...don't know which year. :(

At the ball Princess Margaret of Hesse appeared wearing a tiara(I think in some white or light colored dress)...I also think she was wearing glasses.

It was in some castle.Everybody were climbing the stairs and had to greet and courtesy the Queen,including Princess Margaret of Hesse.

I was trying to find anything on the web but just couldn't.

Does anybody know something more about this visit?Maybe pictures or a video?
Title: Re: Prince Ludwig & Margaret Geddes
Post by: Kalafrana on August 28, 2016, 02:01:02 AM
If you can find the documentary Prince Michael of Kent did about Anna Anderson, Margaret of Hesse appears on that. Michael interviewed her in her garden. This was in the early 1990s, and she was then a very spry old girl, as I remember.

Ann