Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Windsors => Topic started by: Rani on September 30, 2010, 01:44:51 PM

Title: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Rani on September 30, 2010, 01:44:51 PM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/32572_c.jpg)

His stamp

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/32572.jpg)

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/32572_b.jpg)


(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/32573.jpg)

(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/32573_b.jpg)

The Princess Royal Mary looks so like the Princess Royal Anne!
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 01, 2010, 05:48:47 AM
The duke with his pets Detto Prisie & Pookie (Detto had a bandage in its paw cause a taxi ran over him)

(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6384/dhhhhh.jpg) (http://img411.imageshack.us/i/dhhhhh.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 03, 2011, 06:18:21 PM
(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2373/28794789.jpg) (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/28794789.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 01, 2011, 06:15:20 PM
In these days of "The King's Speech" and its heroïfication of trifles, it is interesting to consider how the Anglocentric (royalty watching) world treats the Abdication Crisis like it was the only one of its kind and the gravest abdication crisis ever, completely overlooking the contemporary case of Lilian Baels and Leopold III just across the Channel. That was a love story that threatened the unity of the country which Britain had gone to war to protect in 1914! And part of an ongoing conflict that remains unsolved today, with the King still unable to appoint a new government 8 month's after his last one handed in their resignation!
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on March 03, 2011, 04:59:58 PM
Interesting quote I found from an interview with Wallis:

“He had a terrible problem, you see. He had been brought up by very strict parents… harsh and authoritarian. The atmosphere at Buckingham Palace was incredibly Victorian, prudish, and narrow-minded. To make it worse, David had a very sensitive soul. After reaching adulthood he quarreled bitterly with his father over everything. After getting to know David and realizing that he was a desperately shy young man, full of deeply ingrained inhibitions of the most incredible kind, it became clear he could have never been a wild libertine. In those days, people never spoke of such things. But I had been married twice and knew instinctively that he had never really fulfilled himself in a mature, adult relationship with a member of the opposite sex. I loved David for his wonderful spirit and his fine mind. In time, when he grew to know and trust me, our relationship became a totally fulfilled one. I realized eventually he was totally happy with an understanding woman for the first and only time in his life.”
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Grace on March 04, 2011, 02:57:33 AM
An interesting quote indeed, but quite a one sided one in my opinion!  I think both David and Wallis were made that way though - it was very difficult for them to see anyone's view but their own.  Just my opinion.  Thanks for posting, Jennian.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 04, 2011, 02:14:57 PM
You beat me too it Grace! I agree 100%!! I get tired of reading about his "difficult childhood" and Queen Mary was a bad mother!! ZZzzzzzz!!! Wallis neglects to mention the Dukes biggest problem: his selfishness!!
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on March 15, 2011, 05:16:44 AM
You beat me too it Grace! I agree 100%!! I get tired of reading about his "difficult childhood" and Queen Mary was a bad mother!! ZZzzzzzz!!! Wallis neglects to mention the Dukes biggest problem: his selfishness!!

I've always thought their treatment of Thelma Furness when the PoW fell in love with Wallis was contemptible and cowardly.  I guess it's always embarrassing to have to dump your long-term girlfriend but it couldn't have been done in a nastier way by those sensitive little flowers.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Eddie_uk on March 15, 2011, 01:38:05 PM
I would have to agree CountessKate. And not just Thelma (Who I think was beautiful!!!), but the lovely Freda Dudley Ward too. I think I am right in saying that the Duke ended it by telling his staff that her calls where no longer to be put through, and that was that, so she was basically told she was toast by the telephonist! Bit harsh, however I stand corrected if I am mistaken on this....

I don't get the impression that the Duke or Duchess where sentimentalists!! Maybe that's why I could never warm to them, & I'm  a great one for looking past other peoples failings.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on March 15, 2011, 04:28:48 PM
I would have to agree CountessKate. And not just Thelma (Who I think was beautiful!!!), but the lovely Freda Dudley Ward too. I think I am right in saying that the Duke ended it by telling his staff that her calls where no longer to be put through, and that was that, so she was basically told she was toast by the telephonist! Bit harsh, however I stand corrected if I am mistaken on this....

I don't get the impression that the Duke or Duchess where sentimentalists!! Maybe that's why I could never warm to them, & I'm  a great one for looking past other peoples failings.
I do think they could be quote sentimental, but only about each other. He always left flowers on her pillow and after he died she kept all his things exactly as he'd left them and said "Goodnight David!" before she went to bed every night.

They may have had a bit of an "us against the world complex" which some fairly selfish couples get. You convince yourself that any cheating or lying was justified because this is your "true love" and the other person was using you. You completely forget that you had been in love with that other person once. Then any relatives or friends who dare question your relationship (even if they're genuinely concerned about you getting hurt) are cut out. But usually these things blow up horribly and end with both parties begging to go home only a few months later. I do think Wallis and Edward must have had something real to keep them together (and still defending each other) for so many years.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on March 16, 2011, 06:37:35 AM
I would have to agree CountessKate. And not just Thelma (Who I think was beautiful!!!), but the lovely Freda Dudley Ward too. I think I am right in saying that the Duke ended it by telling his staff that her calls where no longer to be put through, and that was that, so she was basically told she was toast by the telephonist! Bit harsh, however I stand corrected if I am mistaken on this....

I don't get the impression that the Duke or Duchess where sentimentalists!! Maybe that's why I could never warm to them, & I'm  a great one for looking past other peoples failings.
I do think they could be quote sentimental, but only about each other. He always left flowers on her pillow and after he died she kept all his things exactly as he'd left them and said "Goodnight David!" before she went to bed every night.

They may have had a bit of an "us against the world complex" which some fairly selfish couples get. You convince yourself that any cheating or lying was justified because this is your "true love" and the other person was using you. You completely forget that you had been in love with that other person once. Then any relatives or friends who dare question your relationship (even if they're genuinely concerned about you getting hurt) are cut out. But usually these things blow up horribly and end with both parties begging to go home only a few months later. I do think Wallis and Edward must have had something real to keep them together (and still defending each other) for so many years.

I think that’s absolutely right – they were sentimental and emotional only about each other and saw no value in any sort of reciprocal loyalty or sentiment towards anyone else.  Their treatment of the Duke’s loyal supporter and best man Edward Dudley ‘Fruity’ Metcalfe, basically just abandoning him in Paris when they fled the Germans, was deeply unpleasant.  I don’t think harsh parents can be blamed for the fact that the Windsors treated their supporters (as I hardly think they can be said to have had friends) so callously.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 18, 2011, 11:29:41 PM
Speaking of callousness:

The book, Letters from a Prince, contained letters that David wrote to his lover, Freda Dudley Ward. In them, he displayed a callous attitude towards his brother's [John's] death (and apparently that of the Czar and his family, though I haven't read the book)

Anybody who knows more about his bad Romanov attitude?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on March 19, 2011, 10:50:23 AM
Speaking of callousness:

The book, Letters from a Prince, contained letters that David wrote to his lover, Freda Dudley Ward. In them, he displayed a callous attitude towards his brother's [John's] death (and apparently that of the Czar and his family, though I haven't read the book)

Anybody who knows more about his bad Romanov attitude?

Actually, according to the letters, he took a fairly conventional view of the Romanovs.  "How tragic the wretched Czar being shot.  What brutes the Bolshevists are & I don't believe a word about the conspiracy [presumably the excuse used for the excecution that Nicholas was plotting to overthrow the Russian government]; he was a charming man, though of course hopelessly weak!!"  His annoyance was at the court mourning, of which he wrote "I'm very sorry for the poor man & he was charming, but I do think it rather far-fetched, particularly when one thinks of the way Russia (either as an empire or republic) has carted us, & the French, & the Yanks, who have had such a ghastly 4 months on the Western Front, as a consequence of it all!!  But you can well imagine how much 'entre nous' this all is......"

As you can tell, I am not a fan of the Prince, but he seems to be expressing the sort of views one might expect from the ordinary British public at the time, which in fact was the reason why George V felt obliged to deny Nicholas asylum in Britain.  I think it unlikely Edward knew about his father’s part in this, and indeed his views on the origins of the War were pretty crude, but no more so than those of many others of the period, and he was clear that Nicholas was personally not responsible for his plight.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on March 19, 2011, 09:12:05 PM
Thank you for looking that up for me! We are often told that royals have all those photographs of all their foreign cousins on their desks because they lead so isolated lifes, so it's interesting that Edward didn't write about them as a family of cousins (first degree once removed and second degree) being murdered, but rather some foreign collegue, like you'd expect QEII to write about "awful how the people have turned against the King of Bahrain. Was such a pleasant fellow when we met up, but utterly reactionary, of course."
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on March 20, 2011, 05:52:53 AM
Thank you for looking that up for me! We are often told that royals have all those photographs of all their foreign cousins on their desks because they lead so isolated lifes, so it's interesting that Edward didn't write about them as a family of cousins (first degree once removed and second degree) being murdered, but rather some foreign collegue, like you'd expect QEII to write about "awful how the people have turned against the King of Bahrain. Was such a pleasant fellow when we met up, but utterly reactionary, of course."

I don't think he thought about them as family in any really meaningful sense - he would have seen very little of them, and although the elder girls were his contemporaries, they didn't seem at all his type, even as friends - and the gaps between royal families seemed to have widened considerably since his father's generation, there wasn't any central house in which the cousinage all met from time to time such as Rumpenheim or Fredensborg. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: feodorovna on May 15, 2011, 05:31:59 AM
As new poster I concur with much that I have read thus far about this couple and would like to share my own views with you. IMO Davids development,emotional, mental,psychological-possibly even sexual became retarded at or around puberty when mumps was compounded by orchitis. Physical evidence of this can be seen in his slight body and smooth, hairless skin - Ziegler's bio reports of him as a young man that his body was virtually hairless and underdeveloped. At a mental level, exanining his treatment of both Thelma Furness and Freda Dudly Ward, one can call to mind the actions of a child who dumps the old toy in favour of the new. His interests at that time were high risk, like a child, he craved constant stimulation with little thought of consequences. His utterances sound to me like a child repeating what grownups say, part of which, I feel, was about seeking parental approval which he craved but never received. Examples we have of his writings have so little form and content that they could be the work of a twelve year old. Much has been made of his sexual exploits and we all know that princes, to a man, are handsome Adonises and virile, insatiable lovers!!! so we shouldn't be surprised to learn that TF spent a night in "Pardise" when she accompanied him to Africa-could she have said anything other? I don't believe that his relationships with married women were accidental, I feel that he sought to replicate what he already knew, severity that he could be obedient to and rewarded for (an impossibility for a British subject) combined with the nuturing care that he yearned for but had never experienced. The searching stopped when he met Wallis Simpson. Sadly, I feel that this personality is incapable of success in life, the neediness is too great, the intellect too poor. I don't believe he ever wanted to be King and Wallis gave him the reason not to be. "Thankyou" Wallis, for taking him away and keeping him happy. It can't have been easy.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on May 16, 2011, 01:46:12 PM
I can't say I feel there is much evidence of a link between what may have been the Duke of Windsor's late adolescent develpment and an immature attitude to romantic relationships.  There is no evidence that he was physically immature other than the features which Ziegler commented on which could apply to some of his brothers - Princes Albert and Henry also appeared rather immature as adolescents.  As for his intellect, unquestionably his correspondence with his female lovers which has survived, chiefly letters to Freda Dudley Ward and Wallis Simpson, is pretty fatuous, it was private and not expected or intended to be published, and does not mean that his intelligence was not equal to the role of kingship.  Indeed, one of the great griefs at his abdication of supporters such as Winston Churchill was that they believed his intelligence and charisma meant a severe loss to the country and to the monarchy.  Those personally close to him were the recipients of his doubts about his role and had experienced his self-regarding behaviour to have their doubts, but it was by no means clear to most people that he had the intellectual level of a twelve year old.  Undoubtedly he had the emotional maturity of a twelve year old, but many people both then and today function perfectly well in all levels of responsibility in that situation!

While there is an attraction in the idea that the succession of married lovers somehow represents 'looking for mummy', i.e. some sort of nurturing presence, it should also be remembered that for a young man in the aristocratic society of his generation, this was the most attractive group of women sexually available to him.  Young unmarried aristocratic women were heavily chaperoned and generally much less mature or fashionable than the young married woman in high society whose marriage was often pretty relaxed and whose partner could be relied upon to look the other way.  And Freda Dudley Ward was his age, Thelma Furness and Wallis Simpson slightly younger, so he wasn't as obviously looking for a mother figure.  Of the other women associated with him, Lady Sybil Cadogan was 1 year older, Lady Cynthia Hamilton 3 years younger, Lady Diana Manners 2 years older, Lady Rachel Cavendish 8 years younger, Lady Rosemary Leveson Gower 1 year older and only Marion, Vicountess Coke, was 12 years older.  And there is some evidence that he was relatively serious about marriage with Lady Rosemary Leveson Gower, but for various reasons she wasn't considered suitable by the king and queen (Queen Mary must have kicked herself for this later).  So his lady friends were by no means clear replacements for Mummy.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: feodorovna on May 17, 2011, 12:19:51 PM
Regarding your last sentence, CountessKate, one might have hoped that lessons from the past would have been learned when it comes to parents dictating who children  marry on the grounds of what they perceive as unsuitability on the part of the chosen one!!! Dear me, how history does repeat itself! To try and clarify some of my other points, I was suggesting less that David was a late developer,more that some kind of trauma at the prepubescent/pubescent stage- and here we could take our pick,fear of father? fear of being bullied at Naval college? fear of failure all compounded by a ghastly bout of mumps/orchitis-resulted in a cessation in development. About his letters, it was more his phraseology that I was refering to "Thankyou ever so much for..." and "It was ever so kind of you to...."sound rather juvenile but  may have been socially acceptable then as , you pointed out,was the sowing of wild oats by young aristocratic males with married women. In what I see as his unconscious search for a "perfect" mother, I don't believe the womans' age to be relevant. It might have been a tone of voice, a smell, a gesture, that triggered something hugely needful in him. It may have been that the times he could gain his mothers' attention were those during which she admonished him so he grew to regard admonishment as love, and public admonishment the ultimate expression of it. It would take a very special woman to humiliate the POW in such a way and from what we read Wallis was remarkably good at it. We also read in one of her many bios, that on the morning of her marriage with David, she confided with Baba Metcalfe that she "had been married to two men but had not had intercourse with either" and "nobody is allowed to touch below the Maginot line."  Noel Coward, in his diary, writes of David "He hates me because I'm queer and he knows that I know that he's queer." Make of this what you will, I am certain that however dysfunctional their relationship, they were perfect for each other.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on May 18, 2011, 10:47:15 AM
Quote
Regarding your last sentence, CountessKate, one might have hoped that lessons from the past would have been learned when it comes to parents dictating who children  marry on the grounds of what they perceive as unsuitability on the part of the chosen one!!! Dear me, how history does repeat itself!

I wasn't actually saying a marriage between the Prince of Wales and Lady Rosemary Leveson-Gower would have been a success, merely that Queen Mary was likely to have regretted not encouraging this when it looked like he was perpetually in thrall to married women.  History can hardly repeat itself in anticipation; and the future George V had told his fiancee frankly that he had been fond, but not in love with her, and had subsequently grown to love her deeply.  She might well have reasoned that either he would do the same or he could have his cake and eaten it as so many men of his class did, done his duty and produced an heir in marriage and had a married mistress or three as well. 

Quote
We also read in one of her many bios, that on the morning of her marriage with David, she confided with Baba Metcalfe that she "had been married to two men but had not had intercourse with either" and "nobody is allowed to touch below the Maginot line."

Mrs Keppel, at the deathbed of Edward VII, also proclaimed that she was innocent of any wrongdoing (i.e. adultery), but failed to convince her audience.  I have to say I don't believe Wallis Simpson, either.

Quote
Noel Coward, in his diary, writes of David "He hates me because I'm queer and he knows that I know that he's queer."

He may very well have disliked Noel Coward, but the evidence of his being gay is so slight even Noel was unable to identify any man he might have been attracted to, nor have any biographers who have studied the Duke of Windsor exhaustively. 

Quote
I am certain that however dysfunctional their relationship, they were perfect for each other.

I absolutely agree.

Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: feodorovna on May 18, 2011, 01:38:09 PM
So sorry, CountessKate, what I was trying to say, clearly not very well, was this - David was discouraged from marrying Rosemary because she was considered unsuitable and forty or so years later Charles was discouraged from marrying Camilla because she, too, was considered unsuitable. Wouldn't it be interesting to speculate the situation had both marriages met with parental approval.
Enjoying your posts. Hope to read more. Best wishes.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on May 19, 2011, 04:09:08 AM
So sorry, CountessKate, what I was trying to say, clearly not very well, was this - David was discouraged from marrying Rosemary because she was considered unsuitable and forty or so years later Charles was discouraged from marrying Camilla because she, too, was considered unsuitable. Wouldn't it be interesting to speculate the situation had both marriages met with parental approval.
Enjoying your posts. Hope to read more. Best wishes.

Was Charles actively discouraged from marrying Camilla?  I thought he dithered and she went off and married someone else.  But yes, either way it is interesting to speculate.  In fact, if there had been a Rosemary Princess of Wales, would Philip of Greece been quite so keen on Elizabeth of York, and would Charles even have been born?  No doubt, given David's romantic history, it is unlikely that he would have made a go of marriage to Rosemary L-G, but would he have actually divorced her?  And indeed - would she have agreed to divorce him? 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on May 19, 2011, 11:15:18 AM
As I understand it, back in the early 1970s Camilla was considered a bit 'fast', and Charles was anyway in two minds about subjecting her to royal life (they were both only about 22 anyway). He was packed off to Australia and she married Andrew Parker-Bowles on the rebound.

What became of Lady Rosemary in later life?

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on May 19, 2011, 03:40:50 PM
Quote
What became of Lady Rosemary in later life?

She married William Humble Eric Ward, then Viscount Ednam and later 3rd Earl of Dudley, on 8 March 1919.  There is a British Pathe film of their arrival at their wedding, showing the Prince of Wales who attended (http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=77068) - I've read he was the best man and he remained friendly with them both.  The Ednams had three sons, one of whom,  John Jeremy, died tragically in December 1929 at the age of seven when hit by a truck while riding his bike.  Rosemary Ednam died on 21 July 1930 at age 36, horrifically killed in a plane while returning from visiting her husband in Le Touquet, France to Croydon. The plane broke to pieces in the air over Meopham in Kent, killing the two pilots and four passengers.  At the time she had been involved in a local campaign to extend what was called the 'Cripples Home' of the North Staffs Cripples Aid Society, which had been founded by her mother, Millicent Duchess of Sutherland.  When she was killed there was a surge in donations and the target money was reached in record time.  The Prince of Wales opened the new buildings which were named the Rosemary Ednam Memorial Extension after her in 1931, and was said to have had tears in his eyes when he left.  He remained on good terms with her widower who became Earl of Dudley in 1932 and he and Wallis spent part of their honeymoon at the Ednam's home, Himley Hall.

Here is a portrait of her by Sargent:

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/Great%20Ladies/RosemaryViscountessEdnam.jpg)

She apparently confided to her friend, Lady Victor Paget, that she thought she could make something of the Prince of Wales. 

Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: feodorovna on May 20, 2011, 01:24:26 AM
Many thanks for that fascinating info - I'm intrigued to learn that part of the Windsors' honeymoon was spent at Himley Hall. Such a surprise that they came to England so early in their marriage. Was it common knowledge? At some point? they stayed in St Margarets Bay in Kent, I assume with friends because lovely as the area is, it is somewhat remote and I can't imagine them doing remote.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on May 20, 2011, 04:30:06 AM
Himley Hall is 4 miles from Dudley so is not especially remote, though it is in parkland and as a private house, was not then open to the public.  Edward VIII apparently spent his last weekend there before his abdication.  I'm not sure about how early they went to it on the 'honeymoon' - in a sense the rest of their lives were a honeymoon, as they had no real job.  But they'd spent time together there before, so it was certainly a place they had associations with, and the Earl was a friend - consequently it was a favoured place to revisit and where they knew they would be given the consequence they obviously needed.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on May 27, 2011, 08:49:39 AM
Quote
Anyone who thinks there is no evidence that the Duke and Duchess of Windsors were Nazi sympathisers or more should read this.  it was published in the Guardian.
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/6-29-2002-21438.asp
there are a lot of other articles floatinag around the internet.  The sources for this story are British government sources and the FBI

Quote
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foi/images/0,9069,1443560,00.html
here is the original
there are two more

About a year ago on the 'Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 1' thread, Constantinople provided a link to a fascinating article in which the FBI had provided information to the British government on the covert surveillance from 1941 of the activities of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor which were considered to be pro-Nazi.  A good deal of this highly sensational information had been provided by Father Odo', a monk from Wurttemburg, identified by Constantinople as Carl Alexander, Duke of Wurttemburg, a prominent anti-Nazi. 

I've just been reading 'A lonely business - A self-portrait of James Pope-Hennessy' which is a selection of James Pope-Hennessy's letters, diaries and 'royal portraits', the latter of which are memoires of significant interviews he had with various people in the course of writing his life of Queen Mary.  They are absolutely riveting, and include amongst many others the Windsors, Grand Duchess Xenia and Duke Philip of Wurttemburg and his brother "Dom Odo, a Benedictine priest, head of all the Catholic youth, one of Hitler’s most prominent opponents whom the Gestapo tried to assassinate in Switzerland and America during the war....”  He and Duke Philip were the sons of Duke Albrecht of Wurttemburg, the Catholic branch of the family who succeeded Wilhelm II king of Wurttemburg, and James Pope-Hennessey had a wonderful time staying with them in 1958 and hearing all they had to say.  “Dom Odo is.....very tall, immensely fat, with a stomach like a ten-gallon barrel beneath his habit....with a histrionic sense he is always throwing his glance towards the ceiling before embarking on some new scandal or piece of family gossip.  I liked them immensely....Pater Odo speaks English, at times with an American accent of which he is ashamed, as he loathes Americans and the U.S.A...”  Later when the two Wurttemburgers retailed much family gossip, the following gives a flavour of it: “Father Odo [contributed] many stories – most infinitely exaggerated – e.g. Marie Strelitz, her mother and her sister Jutta all had children by Hecht the footman (‘All?’ ‘Yes, yes, my mother told me so herself’) which were then taken to an institution and killed.”  The two brothers touched on the Duke of Windsor “‘Il ne faut jamais s’encanailler comme il l’a fait’, [One should never slum it as he did] said Dom Odo: ‘Jamais,’ replied the Duke, ‘mais aussi il ne faut jamais ni plus se metre sur un piedestal’ [Never, but also one shouldn’t put oneself on a pedestal either], clearly alluding to the Duke of Windsor’s associates with Nazi connections, and to his taking some sort of moral high ground after the war to which he was clearly not entitled.  While Dom Odo’s anti-Nazi activities were highly laudable, and he was clearly a wonderful person to talk to, his information was obviously highly suspect and there’s no evidence he had much of a connection with the Windsors other than a distant family relationship.  The information Dom Odo provided to the FBI that the Duchess had been sleeping with von Ribbentrop, the German ambassador in London, had remained in constant contact with him, and had continued to leak secrets, must be put alongside the information he gave to James Pope-Hennessy that all the women of the Mecklenburg-Strelitz royal family had been sleeping with the footman and all had borne children who were subsequently killed!  Exciting though it all sounds, it is more likely that Dom Odo’s love of gossip and his sensationalist delivery, combined with his German nationality, genuine relationship with the Duke of Windsor, and dislike of the Windsors’ nazi connections, convinced the FBI that he had some insider knowledge which James Pope-Hennessy, for all his pleasure in Dom Odo’s company, was shrewd enough to interpret more objectively.

But the portrait of Dom Odo is a fascinating one and I would recommend it to anyone for its sheer fun – and also the piece on the Windsors which is similarly brilliantly written and very perceptive.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: grandduchessella on September 27, 2011, 01:28:18 PM
Since the last thread was over 90 (about 3 times as large as we usually let the threads get) and had seemed to come to a conclusion of the last-discussed topic, now would be a good time to start part 2.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on September 28, 2011, 02:30:51 AM
5ft 6 is certainly not 'tiny' for a woman. I am 5ft 6 and tower above tiny colleagues of 5ft nothing!

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on September 28, 2011, 01:05:14 PM
I see 5"6" as average for a woman.  Probably because I am 5"6" and 5"7" on a day when I stretch well.

I have a woman friend who is 6" and I am short to her!

I think it has to do with perspective.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on September 28, 2011, 02:36:29 PM
They may have looked smaller than they were because they were both so painfully thin.  They did not eat very much, they preferred to drink.  One of their friends was once interviewed.  She said that the Duchess and other "ladies who lunched" would go to the Colony, the most exclusive restaurant in New York for lunch.  They would eat a few asparagus spears and drink.  I have always found name calling distasteful.  While these people were living it up between New York, Paris and pleasure spots for the rich and famous all over the world, they were fond of calling the Queen Mother that "fat Scotch cook."  They always made fun of her weight.  When she had her major operation and had to have a colostomy, Wallis remarked, "It must have been all those chocolates."  In her later years Wallis existed on a few vegetables and nips of vodka throughout the day.  They were empty shallow people, both of them.  The Duke was probably of a better character than Wallis, but they were both dreadful anti-Semites and appearance oriented people. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Selencia on October 02, 2011, 07:41:59 PM
Wallis was only 5ft 6? She looks taller especially when next to her husband. I was watching a new documentary on Wallis about her secret letters to Ernest. It is quite sad because it appears that Wallis married Edward out of duty rather than love; and that if she had her way she would have remained married to husband #2. I believe this is the view that the new movie W.E., is taking. Also has anyone else heard that Wallis' first husband was abusive?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 03, 2011, 01:22:06 AM
5ft 6 isn't actually that short. The Duchess of Windsor looked tall alongside the Duke because he was very small. Also, she was probably wearing high heels.

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 03, 2011, 09:07:59 AM
Yes, Winfield Spencer was an abusive husband.  I just finished reading Greg King's book about Wallis and he has documented it.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 03, 2011, 09:18:21 AM
It's in Greg King's book, but where did he get his evidence? If it's only in Wallis's own book then my lawyer's instincts come into play and I'd like to see some corroboration! OK, Winfield Spencer married and divorced four times but Ernest Simpson also married four times.

Just being cautious here.

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: feodorovna on October 03, 2011, 10:02:35 AM
I'm interested in what may have caused Winfield Spencer to be abusive. Did he really suffer from alcholism or was this just put about as an excuse for Wallis' leaving him. Might it possibly have anything to do with her famous statement that "Nobody ever touched me below the Mason Dixon line." Not, of course, that it would excuse any abuse on his part. I'm seeking to understand, not condone.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 03, 2011, 10:28:28 AM
I get the impression that Winfield Spencer was quite a capable man, on the basis of his naval career up to the time he and Wallis divorced. He was one of the US Navy's first tranche of pilots, became a flying instructor and was responsible for setting up and running a flying training school while still a Lieutenant and under 30. He was obviously thoroughly frustrated at being kept back from the First World War - maybe he felt guilty about that, especially after his favourite brother was killed.

If what Greg King reports is accurate (i.e. not simply based on what Wallis said in her self-seeking and ghost-written book) Winfield Spencer was far from being a good husband, but I feel a certain sympathy for him.

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 03, 2011, 11:07:03 AM
Apparently at least one of Win's later wives cited abuse as a reason for divorce. So he may have had some issues. Given all of the crap Wallis went through for that divorce (her uncle basically cut her off for it) I don't think she would have done it if Win hadn't been really difficult. Especially considering she had no idea what would be in store for her when she left him.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 03, 2011, 11:40:09 AM
When he drank too much, which was often, he became abusive.  He once locked Wallis up and would not let her out.  He must have been some winner.  I do not think it was sex.  I truly believe he would have had the marriage annulled if there was anything wrong sexually.  He was just a nasty drunk.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 03, 2011, 05:22:38 PM
It does seem as though Greg took a lot from Wallis's book The Heart Has Its Reasons.

He ibids through a bunch of notations and they all stem from WW - which is his notation for her book.

To tell you the truth, I am surprised as Greg is usually very good about getting a lot of sources fro his works and does not usually use one so exclusively.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 04, 2011, 12:30:21 PM
Like "The King's Story" and other authorized biographies "The Heart Has Its Reasons" was a semi-fictional or at least very one sided rendering of the truth of the story of the abdication.  Naturally if someone authorizes a book to be written about them they want to appear in the best light possible.  I would take that book with a grain of salt as most of it is made up or at least slanted in their favor. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 04, 2011, 01:25:34 PM
I suppose only Wallis and Winfield Spencer knew the truth about their marriage, and all the information about it comes from her. According to Greg King, Wallis got a divorce in Virginia on the grounds of three years' separation, which may mean she had no other grounds but may equally mean that she wanted to do things quietly.

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 04, 2011, 04:04:14 PM
I was just disappointed to find out that Greg had only three main sources and two of them are the books authorized by Wallis and David.

That doesn't make for a very new or unbiased view of what happened.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 05, 2011, 03:32:48 AM
Alixz

It is a great pity. From Greg's other books (including those written with Penny Wilson) he is normally very thorough with his research.

Clearly, all he had to go on for considerable chunks of the Duchess's life was her own account, but he should have stated this in the text - 'For this period the only information we have comes from The Heart Has Its Reasons

I wonder whether it would ever be possible to get hold of the other divorce petitions against Winfield Spencer to see whether there is a common theme.

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 05, 2011, 09:36:07 AM
There were so many "ibid"s in some of the source notes that I had to decipher just what book they were from.

In the chapter about Winfield Spencer, the first source note is WW and one has to look at the beginning of all the source notes to find out that that is how Greg refers to The Heart Has Its Reasons.  Then the rest of the notes for that entire chapter almost exclusively say "ibid".
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 05, 2011, 09:57:32 AM
Alixz

I started to get annoyed with that as well.

Greg King and Penny Wilson managed to assemble an enormous amount of mostly obscure material about Anna Anderson, and used it in a judicious manner, but Greg seems to have taken the Duchess's version of events almost entirely at face value.

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Selencia on October 09, 2011, 03:04:15 AM
The most I have heard about Wallis' first marriage was that it was abusive. If it was and she chose to leave that shows a lot of strength of character on her part, because most women just had to stay and deal with the situation. According to new letters, Wallis' second marriage was very satisfactory for her and she would have been happy to stay in it for the rest of her life.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on October 09, 2011, 09:18:53 AM
The most I have heard about Wallis' first marriage was that it was abusive. If it was and she chose to leave that shows a lot of strength of character on her part, because most women just had to stay and deal with the situation. According to new letters, Wallis' second marriage was very satisfactory for her and she would have been happy to stay in it for the rest of her life.

If that had indeed been the case, there seems no obvious reason why she should have become involved with the Prince of Wales at all.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 09, 2011, 10:11:24 AM
As Queen Mary said, "She is an adventuress."  She did things for the challenge and the "kick" she got out of life.  I am sorry but I find it so hard to deal with her defenders.  If she was so happy with Mr. Simpson she should have stayed with him and behaved herself.  If she was unhappy with him she still did not have to stay with David Windsor and cause an international incident.  She could have left at any time.  Even the King of England could not force someone to marry him in the twentieth century.  She should have put a stop to the affair as soon as she saw it was getting out of hand.  She was certainly enough of a woman of the world to know all the signs when a man is getting obsessed. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 09, 2011, 03:15:14 PM
I do not think she was all that happy with Ernest. Those letters show very little about the relationship except that she cared for him in one way or another. I think she took up with the Prince because she was very starstruck and he charmed her into a relationship. If you want to defend Wallis that's one thing, but I can't stand people trying to paint David as some sort of creepo stalker because that's not fair at all. Wallis entered that relationship of her own free will, and she told him she loved him and wanted him in her life on more than one occasion in writing, so it's hard to argue about that. It's not like he picked some random woman to obsess over and trapped her into marrying him. Honestly, while I don't think Wallis would have otherwise divorced Ernest Simpson, I think they both would've ended up having affairs anyway and probably ended up leading seperate lives. I mean on more than one occasion when Wallis was given a choice she went off with David instead of Ernest, even making Ernest go to America by himself and visit her relatives alone so she could go on some trip with David and his friends. She told her Aunt Bessie specifically that her marriage to Ernest was dead and would be even if David was out of the picture. Her actions don't strike me at all as those of someone all that in love with her husband. Wallis did everything she could to avoid making an actual choice (because she was afraid of chosing wrong and missing out on something) but some where along the way when she told David she loved him and continued her relationship even after Ernest was bothered by it, she sealed her fate.

Wallis may have wasted a lot of time wondering what could've been, but I think she was happier married to David than she would've been if she'd gotten out when she still had the chance. She would have been one of those miserable old ladies who whines about the wonderful life that she could've had.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 10, 2011, 03:22:53 AM
I think that once the initial relief of being married to someone who was kind-hearted and, within his means, generous, wore off, Wallis got bored with Ernest, especially once she met the Prince of Wales and was introduced to a different world (and someone who was besotted with her). Ernest seems to have been a very decent man, but fairly quiet and serious-minded and, though he was comfortably off, he wasn't rich. Yes, they might well have stayed married if she hadn't become involved with the Prince, but led fairly separate lives (especially if Aunt Bessie continued taking Wallis off on trips).

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 11, 2011, 10:11:08 AM
David was not a "creepy stalker" as mentioned in a prior reply.  He however might have turned into one if he had not gotten his way with Wallis.  He was obsessed to a dangerous degree with this woman.  I still believe that she was the only one who could satisfy him sexually.  She knew men.  She knew what men want and how to handle them so that they fell in love with her.  Her other affairs ran their courses and ended.  David Windsor was another matter.  If Wallis had died before he did I think he would have died shortly after from a broken heart or else killed himself to be with her.  He had serious psychological problems.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 11, 2011, 10:36:13 AM
We will probably never know if they had a satisfactory physical relationship or not.  We don't have too much information on them except what came from their own books and papers which, I think, Wallis made sure looked good for her.

It may have been that there was no physical relationship and that was they way, by that time, that Wallis wanted it.  David has never said one way of the other, but his other mistresses would have known about his needs and wants and they kept quiet.

But it is true that David wanted her.  History shows us that as a fact in the abdication.  But I wonder if he would have found a way to abdicate (its seems he didn't want to be king) without marrying Wallis.

By the way, we always hear what Queen Mary said about Wallis, but what of George V?  Why did he let his son and heir and heir to the throne go about messing up his own life and the future of the country without saying anything about it?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 11, 2011, 12:50:21 PM
Several women said he was an inadequate sexual partner.  Sex was over with him almost as soon as it began.  I absolutely believe that Wallis was educated in ways to please men sexually and deal with their possible sexual problems.   Had he been allowed to marry Wallis he would have stayed on as King.  He wanted to make her Queen Bessiewallis more than he wanted to be king himself.  He probably would not have needed much of a reason to abdicate.  The government was pleased to have him gone as he was a threat to the country concerning the Nazis.

As far as his father and mother.  They were dealing with a 40 -year-old man.  King George and Queen Mary were not the type of people to openly discuss anything really important with their children.  It was a weird family dynamic, quite usual I understand with the British aristocracy.  They will talk about the weather but not about what is bothering them the most.  I do not begin to understand it.  I do know that King George had no faith in David being a good King.  He said that the boy would ruin himself twelve months after he was dead, and he was right.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 11, 2011, 01:10:11 PM
Why would you think that she was educated in the "way to please men"? I don't think that any of the schools she went to taught such things and her family would not have been any more open to discussing that than would the British Royal Family.

No one in the late 1890s through the early 1900s would have been. If Wallis were educated, then it would seem that she had experimented before her marriage to Win Spencer.  Although there was the affair with that Argentinian diplomat during her separation from Spencer.  Maybe she did her learning at that time?

You make her sound like a "geisha" or house madam when you say that she was "educated in the ways to please men".

I think she was just very frank and without dissembling when it came to talking to men and that was what drew David to her to begin with. 

I think I need to find another source than Greg King's book as that relies too much on the books approved by both Wallis and David for information.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 11, 2011, 01:16:30 PM
Wallis might have learned sexual techniques from her lover the Argentinian bullfighter in China.  On the other hand if the dossier is true, she was educated in "sing song houses" by Chinese courtesans. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 11, 2011, 01:33:00 PM
I must agree with Lady Cathy's assessment here. Wallis' sexual education in  China is mentioned in more than one book about her, both pro and con. She certainly was not a prude by any means. And compared to the British RF must have come across as a harlot.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Grace on October 11, 2011, 03:12:41 PM
Wallis might have learned sexual techniques from her lover the Argentinian bullfighter in China.  On the other hand if the dossier is true, she was educated in "sing song houses" by Chinese courtesans. 

I believe the "Chinese" story has already been proved false.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 11, 2011, 03:22:13 PM
No it has not.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 11, 2011, 03:26:50 PM
No it has not.
Yes it has, pretty much every biographer of either Wallis or David have attested the supposed "dossier" never existed, and that there's no evidence to suggest Wallis learned any kind of sexual techniques (or even that she was having sex with anyone) while she was in China.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Grace on October 11, 2011, 05:48:11 PM
No it has not.

As well as that, the British government said it has and surely it should know!  I will have to find out more details but this came after the release of previously classified government papers which were an investigation of these allegations against the Duchess many years ago.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 11, 2011, 06:32:41 PM
No it has not.

As well as that, the British government said it has and surely it should know!  I will have to find out more details but this came after the release of previously classified government papers which were an investigation of these allegations against the Duchess many years ago.
The British government never said anything of that nature. The files from 2003 included some stories about Wallis's "reputation" and popular rumors of the time, but none about China. You're thinking of the supposed "China dossier" which was rumored to exist that included stories about Wallis in China compiled by the government, but almost certainly never existed.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Grace on October 11, 2011, 06:36:46 PM
That is what I said.  The British government stated that there was never any evidence that the Duchess of Windsor was involved in spy or prostitution activity during her time in China.  You can't get much clearer than that.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 11, 2011, 06:44:50 PM
I checked the new Vickers books, Behind Closed Doors which is the latest I have  and he does  say there is no evidence of such a dossier existing.  Although he is unabashedly pro Wallis, he is a credible  and respected historian. I suppose he would have the access to any such files that there are in the  archives. So, perhaps it is all just rumours and innuendo. In any case, it does not take much for someone creative to stimulate a man's libido without having to learn  from a Chinese brothel. Anyway, why are we even talking about their sex lives ?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Selencia on October 11, 2011, 08:19:04 PM
Wallis sleeping with Edward was not only beneficial to her but also to Ernest himself. A wife taking one for the team and sleeping with a royal is not something new or an act that only Wallis took part in. In various books, there is an indication that Wallis assumed that David would eventually grow tired of her and he would find somebody new and she would be back alone with Ernest. Whether she started the sexual relationship with Edward out of boredom or she was urged on by her husband, either way Wallis did not set out to have a third husband.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 11, 2011, 08:53:33 PM
Wallis sleeping with Edward was not only beneficial to her but also to Ernest himself. A wife taking one for the team and sleeping with a royal is not something new or an act that only Wallis took part in. In various books, there is an indication that Wallis assumed that David would eventually grow tired of her and he would find somebody new and she would be back alone with Ernest. Whether she started the sexual relationship with Edward out of boredom or she was urged on by her husband, either way Wallis did not set out to have a third husband.
But she didn't just sleep with David. She told him she loved him and indicated she wanted to be with him. I agree that her intention wasn't to marry him, or at least it wasn't to begin with. But this was a serious relationship she was entering, not just an occasional sexual encounter. They were together for two years before she divorced Ernest, and according to his staff she practically lived at Fort Belvedere. She went with him on every vacation he took, and wrote to him whenever they were apart for a few days.

Honestly, I don't think the sexual element bothered Ernest all that much. He got plenty of perks from being married to a royal mistress. But I think what pushed him into having his own affair and led to the eventual end to the marriage was when he began to feel that Wallis had feelings for David and was beginning to put his needs over Ernest's. If all that had been going on was sex, and Wallis had not told David she loved him, or agreed to travel with him and take over things at his houses, the two probably never would've ended up together and he would've moved on to someone else and Wallis's marriage would have remained intact.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 12, 2011, 12:49:49 PM
How does anyone know what really went on?  We cannot know what Wallis told Edward.  Even letters do not have to have anything to do with reality, they just may be written with an eye to people reading them some day.  I believe that Earnest Simpson acted like the gentleman he was.  He took Wallis' "friend" Buttercup Kennedy to an inn and committed adultery with her so that he could be the guilty party in Wallis' divorce.  He then faded into the background.  As far as the China dossier or any other dossier, there are things in the archives that will not be read in this century.  Some of the papers relating to the Duke of Coburg and the Duke of Windsor as well as Crawfie's memorabilia are off limits.  Given the kind of man King George V was, it is doubtful that he would not have had the "Simpson Woman" vetted very carefully indeed.  I believe that just as he had all David's relationships investigated he had this one looked into.  We will probably never know the truth in our lifetime.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 12, 2011, 06:41:14 PM
How does anyone know what really went on?  We cannot know what Wallis told Edward.  Even letters do not have to have anything to do with reality, they just may be written with an eye to people reading them some day.  I believe that Earnest Simpson acted like the gentleman he was.  He took Wallis' "friend" Buttercup Kennedy to an inn and committed adultery with her so that he could be the guilty party in Wallis' divorce.  He then faded into the background.  As far as the China dossier or any other dossier, there are things in the archives that will not be read in this century.  Some of the papers relating to the Duke of Coburg and the Duke of Windsor as well as Crawfie's memorabilia are off limits.  Given the kind of man King George V was, it is doubtful that he would not have had the "Simpson Woman" vetted very carefully indeed.  I believe that just as he had all David's relationships investigated he had this one looked into.  We will probably never know the truth in our lifetime.
So you think the letters, which were dated and often included correct addresses and postmarks, were all somehow faked because they would be read later? If she had done that then I think a lot of things, like the baby talk, and the bitchy comments about David's family, would not have been included. There were plenty of comments in the letters that do not put Wallis in a favorable light. Also, Wallis had originally asked for her letters to be destroyed (like the Queen Mother and Princess Margaret did with some of their private leters) but her lawyer had decided to publish them to make a quick buck.

Most everything relating to the abdication was released in 2003. I don't think anything would be held back about Wallis at this point. Also I think it would be a big coincedence if what really existed was similar to a rumor that emerged from nowhere and is not supported by any evidence. I'm sure Wallis was "looked into" but I'm also reasonably sure little about her life before she movied to Britain was found. This was pre-internet and researching events that happened involving a non-famous person in another country years before would be difficult.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Grace on October 12, 2011, 07:09:34 PM
Exactly, why would material from the Edward/Wallis era be still held back at this period in time?  Supposedly much of it was not released out of respect for the Queen Mother whilst she was alive but since her death in 2002, surely everything is out there now.  If not, what don't we know and who could have said it?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CountessKate on October 13, 2011, 05:02:39 AM
One writer on the subject (I can't honestly recall which, there have been so many, but I think it may have been Frances Donaldson), suggested that the notions of Edward's inadequate sexuality and Wallis' unusual sexual skills came from the sheer incredulity with which many people saw Edward being apparently besotted by a woman who was not particularly pretty, young, and with no overwhelming charm to explain why he would actually come to the point of giving up his throne for her.  The only explanation was that he had special needs which only she could supply and which only the two of them were in a position to know about - hence the lurid rumours. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 13, 2011, 05:27:59 AM
The Royal Household are still wary of washing dirty linen in public. Some 15 years ago I was researching an academic article on the Titles Deprivation Act 1917 (by which the Duke of Coburg and others were deprived of their British titles) and it was not until I had proved my 'reliability' that the Royal Archives let me see some correspondence which was even mildly sensitive. The Royal Household are also still not saying where the Garter banners of the Kaiser and others are now (I imagine somewhere in Windsor Castle).

I suspect the salicious rumours about the Duke's lack of sexual prowess and the Duchess's expertise are no more than that. We have to remember that men quite frequently marry the most unlikely wives - and vice versa!

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 13, 2011, 09:36:41 AM
When I previously mentioned her Argentine Diplomat, I didn't mean a bullfighter. 

In Washington DC after leaving Spenser, she "quickly fell in love" with Felipe Espil.  He was a thirty five year old diplomat attached to the Argentine embassy.

After he "dumped" Wallis (for various reasons) he later served as the Argentine ambassador to the US from 1931 to 1943.  He died in Argentina in 1972.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 13, 2011, 10:35:35 AM
You are right.  I was wrong.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 13, 2011, 04:10:20 PM
I think the Felipe Epsil episode in some ways forshadowed Wallis's involvement with David and explains a lot of her behavior. Though of course, Felipe Epsil wasn't a prince, he was very glamorous and successful and many women were after him. Circumstances made it very difficult for he and Wallis to marry, so he eventually dumped her and moved on to someone else pretty quickly. Wallis was apparently very much affected by that break-up, and thus was more guarded when she was first involved with David as she expected a similar outcome. I mean, Felipe Epsil may very well have "romanced" Wallis with gifts and melodramatic declaractions of eternal love just like David did. At least one of the bios of Wallis I read indicated that was probably the case.

I also think getting dumped by Felipe who was superficially handsome and charming may have encouraged Wallis to "settle" for the more dull Ernest Simpson who was much more reliable.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 16, 2011, 10:58:46 AM
The more I research, the more I think I see a "needy" Wallis who longed for that "perfect love".  She married Spencer way too fast and too young, to get away from Baltimore.

She had the affair with Espil during the time she was separated from Spencer and alienated from her family because of the separation.

She may well have gone with dependable but dull Ernest to get away from the roller coaster that she had been riding.

But as to why she allowed Ernest to take the blame for the divorce so that she could marry David has a lot to do with David and probably a lot of other things that we will never know about.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 17, 2011, 03:23:27 AM
In those days it was the done thing for men to take the blame in divorce cases by providing grounds for their wives to divorce them for adultery. Apparently there was quite a little industry in places like Brighton!

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: feodorovna on October 17, 2011, 07:25:54 AM
The only evidence necessary was for them to be seen in bed together and I believe that it was often a business arrangement, the "couple" having not met previously.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TampaBay on October 17, 2011, 07:47:38 AM
Somewhere there is a very old thread on the Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor.  I cannot find it.  If someone can find it, could you please bump it up. 

There are many great pictures on that thread.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 17, 2011, 08:11:13 AM
The only evidence necessary was for them to be seen in bed together and I believe that it was often a business arrangement, the "couple" having not met previously.

It's generally believed the girl Ernest was with was Wallis's old friend Mary Kirk who he had apparently had an affair with, but it'll never be proven either way. Even at the time everyone figured it was a set-up. Wallis and David likely knew when/where it was going to happen in advance so they could easily get the "evidence" necessary for the divorce hearing.

Wallis was really freaked-out in the aftermath of the abdication that someone would come along and prove the divorce was illegal and she would be prevented from marrying David.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 17, 2011, 09:30:50 AM
Tampa Bay it has been a long time!  Good to see you again.

Here is the link:


http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=10424.0

Actually it is a link to Windsor Jewels, but might not be the Duchess of Windsor.  Perhaps that thread was lost in the site conversion so many years ago.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Martyn on October 17, 2011, 11:43:43 AM
Somewhere there is a very old thread on the Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor.  I cannot find it.  If someone can find it, could you please bump it up. 

There are many great pictures on that thread.

TampaBay

I think that sadly it is lost forever.....
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 17, 2011, 03:42:12 PM
I have that Southey's catalogue as well as the prices received  [not th buyers, howevre] All auction house  publish prices received. It is no secret.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TampaBay on October 19, 2011, 09:29:35 AM
Can someone please post the picture of Wallis' sapphire and diamond bracelet.

Tackiest thing in the world and I just love it.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 19, 2011, 10:10:26 AM
Here is an interesting link:

http://www.steelorchids.com/blog/articles/2011/03/27/jewellery-icons-wallis-simpson-duchess-of-windsor/

I did some image searching on Google, but I can't find the sapphire and diamond bracelet.  What did it look like?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TampaBay on October 19, 2011, 10:48:55 AM
Here is an interesting link:

http://www.steelorchids.com/blog/articles/2011/03/27/jewellery-icons-wallis-simpson-duchess-of-windsor/

I did some image searching on Google, but I can't find the sapphire and diamond bracelet.  What did it look like?



It looks like a large and gaudy mens wrist watch and I found it! 

It is on page 27 of the locked D&D of Windsor thread as are great pictures of the famous Duchess of  Windsor Jewels.

These are pictures that Martyn thought were lost to cyber space.

Julie
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 19, 2011, 11:06:33 AM
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k14/Livadia13/GW231H305.jpg)

Is this it?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TampaBay on October 19, 2011, 11:07:39 AM
Yes!  That is it!

Thanks!
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 19, 2011, 11:24:29 AM
It is not too over the top.  I like it, too.

I love a lot of her jewelry as I love the Art Deco look. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TampaBay on October 19, 2011, 12:10:03 PM
It is not too over the top.  I like it, too.

I love a lot of her jewelry as I love the Art Deco look. 


Alix, Thanks for posting the picture of the bracelet.  It is my all time favorite Wallis piece.

The bracelet looks "not too over the top" becuase of the picture.  It actually is HUGE!  I have seen a copy on someone's wrist and can you can see it from a mile away.

It is a gorgeous bracelet.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 19, 2011, 04:10:27 PM
I have a question about biographies.  Does anyone know what the best biography of Wallis would be?  I have read Greg King's book and I was disappointed in his somewhat biased lean toward Wallis and his use of her book The Heart Has Its Reasonsfor most of his sources.,

I would like to read a less favorably biased book.  One which presents both sides.

I have been checking on Amazon, but the authors are not ones that I am familiar with and I hope someone here can give me a clue.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 19, 2011, 04:48:05 PM
I have a question about biographies.  Does anyone know what the best biography of Wallis would be?  I have read Greg King's book and I was disappointed in his somewhat biased lean toward Wallis and his use of her book The Heart Has Its Reasonsfor most of his sources.,

I would like to read a less favorably biased book.  One which presents both sides.

I have been checking on Amazon, but the authors are not ones that I am familiar with and I hope someone here can give me a clue.
The Woman He Loved by Ralph G. Martin is good. It doesn't buy into any of the silly rumors or stories yet presents both the good and bad sides very well. It's sympathetic but doesn't overlook anything.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 19, 2011, 04:57:29 PM
Thanks - I will look into it.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 19, 2011, 05:11:03 PM
The new book by Hugo Vickers is supposed to be  quite good, but I have barely touched the surface and he is known to be  pro-Wallis. His other royal bios are generally very good as well.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 19, 2011, 05:55:00 PM
The new book by Hugo Vickers is supposed to be  quite good, but I have barely touched the surface and he is known to be  pro-Wallis. His other royal bios are generally very good as well.
I got it when it first came out. It was great in that it documented her final years and death and shined some light on a period that was shrouded in mystery. But in the shorter second half where he covers her earlier life it's a bit rushed, and I don't agree with a lot of his conclusions, probably because he didn't have the space to elaborate. He's actually not as pro-Wallis as people think; he goes against the crazy stories like her being a Nazi but he doesn't paint her as being a nice, pleasant, or even honest human being. He's even harsher on David.

Basically it's the absolute best book out there if you only want to know about Wallis's later life, but far from the best if you want to read about her whole life.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 19, 2011, 07:07:52 PM
Thanks Jenianne, this gives me more of an incentive to read it.  However, at 393 pages, not including notes & index,
 he should have had plenty of room to expand.  Vickers is well recognised and is pretty much given a blank cheque on length of his tomes, so I am told.
 There re  other books on th end of the Duchess, but I imgine he had the most access to her archives.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Martyn on October 20, 2011, 08:09:44 AM
[


These are pictures that Martyn thought were lost to cyber space.

Julie

Is that the thread that contained images and information that I posted some years back?  I thought that it was lost, like the Maud of Norway clothing thread.....
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TampaBay on October 20, 2011, 08:40:58 AM
I do know if it is the exact same thread (maybe it was merged) but all the pictures and our discussion from 2007 are present.  It starts about page 25.  I think the D&D of Windsor threads were some how merged.

TampaBay
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Alixz on October 20, 2011, 08:56:58 AM
As to biographies of Wallis and David, I am more interested in their lives before the abdication as their lives after that seemed boring, childish, churlish and pointless.  The roamed the world complaining about things that they themselves caused to happen.

I ordered the Ralph Martin book (for 99cents) and hope to find a different view of Wallis and some new information.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 20, 2011, 11:35:27 AM
How timely; I have just read of a new play opening in London 26 Oct. [I leave for London 1 Nov.]
 THE LAST OF THE DUCHESS by Wright. Based on the Blackwood book.  It is at the Hampstead theatre which I am not familiar with so will have to search it out.
  Should be good, as both the playwright and the author of the book are excellent.
  You can be sure I will  check this out !
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Janet Ashton on October 20, 2011, 12:32:27 PM
I have a question about biographies.  Does anyone know what the best biography of Wallis would be?  I have read Greg King's book and I was disappointed in his somewhat biased lean toward Wallis and his use of her book The Heart Has Its Reasonsfor most of his sources.,


To clarify: there are three chapters about Wallis's early life which rely heavily on her memoir. The book is 47 chapters long and has a twelve-page bibliography.  To avoid disappointment, if you want a book which claims to be definitive, it's probably not a good idea to read one which openly states in its introduction that it will present the side of her ignored by several recent (at the time) antipathetic works.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 20, 2011, 01:01:03 PM
I agree there lives after the abdication where pretty pointless. Apparently the Duke once spent a whole day watching the Duchess choose a hat! What a dreary existence! Very worth while, not!
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 20, 2011, 01:32:02 PM
Same here,Eddie, except i would add, their lives before the abdication were pretty useless as well.  Edaward VIII would have been a disaster as a king, and that has become fairlyobvious. Despite his so called affability, he was a useless snob and could not work  with any government.
 Books- I just counted mine on the  D&D Windsors,before packing them away, my libray is being renovated and expanded, I have 15  volumes on them. All  points of view. I discount their so-called memoirs, they paid  to have them written and are pure trash, as far as I am concerned. However, there are good volumes both pro & con  and my collection must  just be a fraction of what has been written about them.
  BTW, Eddie, good to hear you chiming in here, i was wondering where you were.
 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Eddie_uk on October 20, 2011, 01:39:48 PM
Thank you Robert!! :-* I am not particularly knowleagable about this couple, nor that interested. I am chiefly fascinated in Queen Victoria, her children & grandchildren. Oh and George VI & QE  too!
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 21, 2011, 04:18:23 AM
I think the Duke was probably at his best as a young man in WW1 when he was really keen to serve in the front line but no one would let him. However, there is a parallel with Charles Edward Stuart, who was at his best during his escape after Culloden (though even then causing problems by getting drunk!), but not much use before and totally useless after!

Robert, could you recommend any of the books in your collection?

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: feodorovna on October 21, 2011, 09:39:00 AM
Is anything known about the PoW/King/DoWs drinking habits? His personality strikes me as hovering around the melancholy/depressive spectrum and possibly the type that would use alcohol to drown his sorrows. He seemed to escape getting hooked on cocaine-hooked on Wallis instead.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 21, 2011, 03:25:55 PM
Feod.  From what I have read, they were lushes but the Duchess was able to  use drinking socially, which made her popular, whereas the Dike [just frommyassessment, I did not know them of course] drank himself to sleep. He was not, apparently, a nasty drunk, just dull.
 Anne, that is a hard question to answer.  I suppose it depends on one's point of approaching the subject
 There are so many  pro and con, especially on Wallis.
  I have not yet read the Vickers  book, which I will mostlikely get around  after my UK visit.
 But, I do like the Blackwood book, it  tells much about Maitre Blum and her control of the Duchess but not much about her life before.
  I do not have the Sebba book, I will collect in  soon on my London visit but I understand it is rather trashy.
 For the older volumes, I would say  THE WINDSOR STORY by  Bryan III & Murphy is fairly objective [from my memory, have not re-read it in ages] and KING EDAWRD VIII by Ziegler is  good, also from  memory.  Both of those volumes are rather dated by now i imagine, before letters and archives were made public.
 I do not have the Mitford memoir, surprisingly, which I have read, long time ago. I shall  fill that gap soon.
  I tend to write off the Duke as a dullard, but the Duchess, although I may dislike her, I find her fascinating, for better or worse.
 Cheers,
 Robert
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyTudorRose on October 21, 2011, 03:50:52 PM
Is anything known about the PoW/King/DoWs drinking habits? His personality strikes me as hovering around the melancholy/depressive spectrum and possibly the type that would use alcohol to drown his sorrows. He seemed to escape getting hooked on cocaine-hooked on Wallis instead.

I've actually come to believe he was probably bipolar. He had a lot of the symptoms that are common from periods of depression, to changes in sleeping habits, and some other stuff.

The Sebba book is apparently very trashy. I have no intention of reading it, but have had trouble avoiding the various articles she's written promoting it. Most of her conclusions are totally unproven and she dredges up theories that were disproven by previous biographers and presents them as being likely.

Honestly, from what I've read David was more interesting when he was young and I think he got boring as he got bored with his life post-Abdication. He was very reluctant to admit that boredom because he didn't want to suggest he was unhappy with Wallis.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: LadyCathy on October 22, 2011, 11:54:29 AM
I think he was more obsessive compulsive than bipolar.  He did not have wild spending habits or outbursts of energy followed by depressive symptoms.  He did drink quite a bit as did she, but that was the way a lot of society people behaved and still do.  His obsession with Wallis was intense.  Even Queen Mary said that his love for Wallis was "unnatural." 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Suzanne on March 13, 2012, 11:59:41 AM
Here's my review of the Anne Sebba biography of Wallis Simpson. The early chapters are quite speculative but here discussion of the abdication crisis is very interesting:

http://www.royalhistorian.com/that-woman-by-anne-sebba-book-review-of-the-latest-biography-of-wallis-simpson-duchess-of-windsor/
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Clemence on May 12, 2012, 02:41:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--goH-lhRNY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--goH-lhRNY)

was it mentioned before?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on May 14, 2012, 08:17:59 AM
My sister has just come back from spending a week at Le Moulin de la Tuilerie, the weekend retreat of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. Its now owned and run by the Landmark Trust who restore historic and architecturally unusual buildings and then let them out as holiday homes so that they can 'earn their keep'. My sister and her husband had the main Mill house and slept in the Duke and Duchess's former bedroom whilst their children and friends stayed in the converted outbuildings in bedrooms once used by the likes of Elizabeth Tayler and Marlene Dietrich.

In the sitting room of the main mill house is a mural painted for the Duchess that states 'Im not the mill owners daughter but I have been through the mill!'. My sister and her family had a wonderful time and my niece is convinced she saw a ghost but not of the Duke or Duchess unfortunately. I believe it was the only property the Duke and Duchess ever actually owned.

The landmark Trust is a wonderful organisation, I have stayed in a few of their properties myself although not on the continent, they also have properties in Italy and the USA. For group bookings they are surprisingly good value. Have a look at the Le Moulin de la Tuilerie on their website landmarktrust.org.uk. Their are more pictures under the 'group' folder for the Landmark Trust on Flickr.com.

Prince Charles is the Trust's patron and so they also have a tower/hunting lodge that you can stay in on the Sandringham Estate, once used by Edward VIII and Queen Alexandra.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on May 14, 2012, 08:22:45 AM
oops! I meant Edward VII.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: RoyalWatcher on May 16, 2012, 12:07:36 PM
Awhile ago, there was discussion about the Madonna directed W.E. film. I had a chance to watch it and I was quite surprised. It was lovely, beautifully shot and well acted. I didn't think that it would be something that would resonate with me, but surprisingly it did. Was anyone else surprised with their reaction to the film?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: CHRISinUSA on May 17, 2012, 07:37:55 AM
My sister has just come back from spending a week at Le Moulin de la Tuilerie, the weekend retreat of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. I believe it was the only property the Duke and Duchess ever actually owned.

Perhaps in terms of a home (where they actually resided much of the year); however, the Windsors also owned the E.P. Ranch in Alberta, Canada.  It was purchased by Edward, then Prince of Wales, in 1919 after his tour of Canada, and he bred lifestock, notably Shorthorn cattle, Dartmoor ponies, Shopshire sheep and Clydesdale horses.  In 1956 the Duke of Windsor and a group in Britain formed the EP Ranching Company to take over the ranch operations. It was restocked with purebred animals from Britain. In 1962 the ranch was sold to a neighboring rancher.

The Prince visited the ranch in 1923, 1924 and 1927, and after his abdication as King Edward VIII, visited the ranch with his wife in 1941 and 1950. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: OctoberLily on December 02, 2013, 01:46:00 AM
"Wallis Simpson, the Secret Letters" will air on PBS December 3, 2013.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Horock on December 02, 2013, 09:01:59 AM
From all I have read, seen and heard Edward was a sitting duck for a scheming gold-digger like Wallis Simpson.  Together they would have made an appalling King and consort.  Getting rid of Edward as King was best day’s work the government of the day ever did.  The accession of the Duke and Duchess of York gave the country far more suitable figureheads for ordeal to be endured a few years later. 

As for the film W.E., the costumes and the jewellery are quite nice. That is as good as it gets.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: bongo on March 16, 2014, 10:24:14 PM
Has anyone seen that last paparazzi photo of Wallis in a hospital bed with white hair, a tube up her nose, and her mouth twisted in a grimace? I haven't seen it since it was published in a magazine in the 1970s and I've never seen in it in a book or online. Once seen never forgotten. I think Vickers or Caroline Blackwood mention it being taken in one of their books: the photographer apparently pushed open the door of the private ward for a moment and snapped the pic. And yes, I do think it's worthy of publication however discreditable the original situation of its taking: it acts as a sobering reminder for this story, and all our stories, that in the end all is dust and ashes.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Clemence on May 09, 2014, 01:41:58 PM
Does anyone remember if more details on the Nahlin cruise can be found somewhere in this forum? I'm particularly interested in a meeting (if I'm not in error) between the King and Wallis and the King of Greece and his lady friend, Mrs Joyce Britten-Jones.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Maria Sisi on August 09, 2014, 07:43:32 PM
A piggy back ride from his grand aunt Maria Feodorovna
(http://37.media.tumblr.com/1c8b72061bd6e0d508aa15d0a5cb8a25/tumblr_n4wvmtfBSH1swlvdmo1_500.png)
scn.youngeasy.com
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 10, 2015, 12:34:02 PM
Andrew Morton (Author of "Diana") wrote a book about David & Wallis called: 17 Carnations

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h1MwXyPDL.jpg)

The story of the love affair between Wallis Simpson and King Edward VIII, and his abdication in order to marry the divorcée, has provoked fascination and discussion for decades. However, the full story of the couple s links with the German aristocracy and Hitler has until now remained untold. Meticulously researched, 17 Carnations chronicles this entanglement, starting with Hitler s early attempts to matchmake between Edward and a German noblewoman. While the German foreign minister sent Simpson seventeen carnations daily, each one representing a night they had spent together, she and the Duke of Windsor corresponded regularly with the German elite. Known to be pro-German sympathizers, the couple became embroiled in a conspiracy to install Edward as a puppet king after the Allies were defeated. After the war, the Duke s letters were hidden in a German castle that had fallen to American soldiers. They were then suppressed for years, as the British establishment attempted to cover up this connection between the House of Windsor and Hitler. Drawing on FBI documents, material from the German and British Royal Archives, and the personal correspondence of Churchill, Truman, Eisenhower and the Windsors themselves, 17 Carnations reveals the whole fascinating story, throwing sharp new light on a dark chapter of history.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1782434569/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d8_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0AWVA5NTZ9A600X7A40G&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=455333147&pf_rd_i=468294
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Превед on March 10, 2015, 04:58:30 PM
Andrew Morton (Author of "Diana") wrote a book about David & Wallis called: 17 Carnations

Apparantly, the "revelations" behind the book have been known for years (allegedly since 1957!). I'm sure having them spice up a well-known old story can be entertaining, like a good Hercule Poirot episode. But apart from that I think this book says more about modern Britain and its relationship with Germany, based on a very good lecture about modern Germany I attended yesterday. Whereas an innovative, expanding, stable and democratic modern Germany is prospering in a crisis-ridden Europe, Britain (just like France) is, bluntly put, going down the drain. In Germany, society is still coherent, the political system is working, the middle class still retains its position and there is no underclass without prospects, whereas in Britain society is returning to the caste society from the Windsors' heyday as the divide between rich and poor escalates and different election outcomes don't change anything. Germans can finally be proud to be German. Britons can finally no longer be proud to be British. Instead of actually humbly taking a look at what the Germans are doing right, Britons can too easily stuff themselves (force fed by chauvinistic media) with the comfort food mix of WW2 and royalty. The story of the Windsors contains a handy element of establishment critique, a fairytale of (no longer possible) social mobility and a Euro-sceptic view of Germany as a distant country populated by sinister "others" up to no good.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Greenowl on July 18, 2015, 09:21:36 AM
A Buckingham Palace spokesperson has voiced disappointment after a British newspaper published images allegedly showing a young Queen Elizabeth II giving a Nazi salute in the early 1930s. The front page story in today's edition of The Sun shows the queen, then aged around six, briefly raising her right hand in the air as her mother, the late Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother, does the same. The headline on the story read: "Their Royal Heilnesses" - a reference to the "Heil Hitler" greeting used in Nazi Germany.

They were apparently being encouraged by the queen's uncle, the future king Edward VIII, who went on to meet Adolf Hitler and abdicated in 1936 over his desire to marry US divorcee Wallis Simpson. The images come from a 20-second black and white home movie which The Sun reported was shot at the royal family's Balmoral estate in 1933 or 1934 and has never been seen before. A spokesman for Buckingham Palace said in a statement: "It is disappointing that film, shot eight decades ago and apparently from her majesty's personal family archive, has been obtained and exploited in this manner."

The Sun's managing editor Stig Abell said the footage was obtained by the newspaper "in a legitimate fashion" and that its publication was "not a criticism of the Queen or the Queen Mum".
"It is a historical document that really sheds some insight into the behaviour of Edward VIII," he told BBC Radio 4's Today. Asked about the complaint by the palace that it had been "exploited", he said: "I understand that they don't like this coming out but I also feel, on a relatively purist basis, that the role of journalists and the media is to bring to light things that happened. What we have done is just brought to light a historical document and we have sought to present it in a contextual fashion around Edward VIII and have made the point relatively clearly. I hope that we recognise, of course, that the Queen and the Queen Mum went on to become heroes of the Second World War and there are no aspersions being cast upon them by the Sun." he added.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on July 18, 2015, 12:39:56 PM
Here we go again. I get very tired of the self-righteousness of the British press.

The Telegraph takes the more sensible view that this is simply an example of the Royal Family larking about at a time when Hitler was regarded as something of a comic figure (think Charlie Chaplin's 'The Great Dictator').

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TheLionandTheEagle on October 10, 2015, 04:58:04 AM
How credible is the rumor that Wallis was pro-Nazi?

Also, have any good books been released about her since more papers have been released (in 2003, as stated up-thread)?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Превед on October 10, 2015, 09:34:50 AM
How credible is the rumor that Wallis was pro-Nazi?

Depends on what you mean by "pro-Nazi". But I think her starting point, as a déclassée member of the upper-class of an inherently racist society (the segregated US), eager to get her revenge on the class-based establishment that had rejected her (Britain) was fertile soil for Nazi ideas about a "natural aristocracy" of the "fittest survivors".

She liked Hitler because he treated her as royalty and just like him she had a huge inferiority complex, especially against the British establishment. Perhaps she and Hitler also had something in common with regard to arrested and perverted sexuality.

She had no social consciousness and probably stood rather far from National Socialism's views concerning breaking down class barriers and doing away with "idle spongers" like herself.  In my view she was more a true collaborateur à la Vichy France or Franquist Spain, who would jump at any chance to get her Platz an der Sonne rather than an adherent of genuine Nazi ideology. Like her husband and many others she probably saw fascism as a necessary antidote to Communism, which she probably opposed solely on practical grounds (as a typical capitalist leech), not because she valued freedom, democracy or free enterprise.

I also doubt she had any particular fascination for ideas about Germanic superiority beyond "white supremacy". She was more into Gallic and Romance culture.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TheLionandTheEagle on October 10, 2015, 06:04:17 PM
Thank you!

So you don't think she was some kind of spy helping the German war effort?
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Превед on October 11, 2015, 07:04:49 AM
So you don't think she was some kind of spy helping the German war effort?

No, because she didn't have access to any confidential information that could be of use to the Germans. Remember she was ostracized by the British establishment! I don't doubt she may have tried to make herself important by tempting the German establishment with all kinds of insider gossip about the RF or even Churchill, but I doubt that information would have been of much use to them.

BTW do note that her Wikipedia article says:
Following the outbreak of war in 1939, the Duke was given a military post in the British Army stationed in France. According to the son of Lord Ironside, the Duchess continued to entertain friends associated with the fascist movement, and leaked details of the French and Belgian defences gleaned from the Duke.
This based on page 305 of the notoriously unreliable Higham, Charles (2005), Mrs Simpson, London: Pan Books, ISBN 0-330-42678-8.

If you are interested in the pro-Nazi fraction of the British establishment, you should read up on Sir Oswald Mosley and Diana Mitford, who were close to the Windsors and shared their exile after the war.

Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: mcdnab on October 14, 2015, 08:41:23 AM
I have never thought much of the allegations - Edward in particular was far more concerned with keeping up appearances and the status of his wife and as he grew older denigrating his British relations who he blamed for the idle and rather boring life he was forced to live and what he viewed as their calculated and deliberate slurs heaped upon his wife.

During the mid 1930s a significant proportion of British society were sympathetic to Hitler for a number of reasons 1) a genuine horror of a second war particularly as many had seen action or lost friends and relatives 2) a politically naive view of Hitler as a man dragging his country back from the brink 3) a fear however groundless of the threat of communism 4) people who genuinely thought Germany had been given a raw deal at Versailles

There were of course those who were also attracted by the anti-semitism of the Nazi's and those who loathed him but were so strongly anti-war they would tolerate almost anything.

Many of those people were part of the society that circled around both the Prince of Wales and the Duke and Duchess of York (who were exceptionally pro-appeasement a point often ignored)

Edward in particular had seen some of the horrors of the trenches as Prince of Wales during WWI and he had very happy memories of his visit to Germany shortly before the war when he stayed with his mother's relatives in Mecklenburg Strelitz. He was well known as someone committed to peace and was considered pro-German (which is not necessarily the same as pro-Nazi)

Mrs Simpson had the ear of the Prince of Wales and later the King - she was therefore much in demand in society and because of that unique access was naturally the recipient of overtures and flattery from all sorts of diplomats including people like Von Ribbentrop.

After the abdication Edward found himself cut off from those who might have been able to protect him from making blunders and to be fair some of those (including his disastrous trip to Germany) were also aimed at upsetting his family in England as his resentment of them grew. Naturally such actions made the relationship impossible on both sides.

His actions in World War II, particularly his departure from Paris which infuriated Churchill (who had been a loyal supporter of Edward VIII), and the dubious characters he befriended have not helped his reputation and have added to the view that he and his wife were pro Nazi when in reality everything was always about feeding his need for approval and his need to feel important.

Of course the pro-nazi line is useful for historians keen to explain the abdication as an establishment conspiracy to get rid of a King who was far too nice to the workers (which in itself was odd given how his something must be done comment as widely reported in the press was followed by inaction and spending lavishly on Wallis)
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Превед on October 14, 2015, 11:10:53 AM
Good points.

Many of those people were part of the society that circled around both the Prince of Wales and the Duke and Duchess of York (who were exceptionally pro-appeasement a point often ignored)
True, although one certainly wouldn't know from that hagiographic "The King's Speech".

Quote
Edward in particular had seen some of the horrors of the trenches as Prince of Wales during WWI and he had very happy memories of his visit to Germany shortly before the war when he stayed with his mother's relatives in Mecklenburg Strelitz.

Seems like he found Württemberg boring, M-Strelitz OK and Berlin('s nightlife) real fun. Funnily Philip Ziegler writes that the only country apart from Britain he really liked was Norway, because of the informality and sports.

I think his outlook was so narrow and limited that he couldn't really grasp an idea (Nazism) that didn't originate in the British environment he knew. Whereas Wallis was far more cosmopolitan and had experienced as different cultures as the US, China and Britain.
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 14, 2015, 12:11:33 PM
I agree with what McDnab has to say - a very balanced and judicious analysis - and would only add that the Nazis did of course actively cultivate Establishment figures in Britain as well as members of the old aristocracy in Germany. Goering was regarded as the most socially acceptable of the Nazi leaders, as he was of good family on his father's side (though his mother had been a waitress in a beer garden, whom his father married hastily after getting her pregnant with Goering's elder brother!), a regular Prussian officer and a holder of rthe Pour le Merite. So he was therefore regularly charged with the job of buttering people up, strange as it might seem today.

I think the Duke of windsor was essentially a shallow personality, very susceptible to flatterly, and even more so to flattery of Wallis. Rather in the same way as the Nazis with Wallis, the Kaiser buttered up Franz Ferdinand by being nice to Sophie.
 
Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: amelia on October 14, 2015, 03:19:42 PM
The Duke and Duchess of Windsor socialized with Prince Felix Yusupoff and his wife Princess Irina. In one of Felix's books he mentions that the Duchess of Windsor always called Irina, Your Imperial Highness..... thus makinf Irina calling her Your Royal Highness!!!


Amelia
(Eva McDonald)
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: TheLionandTheEagle on October 14, 2015, 04:39:12 PM
Thank you all for your helpful replies.  There's a lot of nuance to it, of course, that people generally ignore when discussing the early parts of Hitler's rise to power, etc. 
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: Kalafrana on October 15, 2015, 04:03:03 AM
I think we also need to bear in mind that it was not until the later 1930s - around 1936 onwards - that the true unpleasantness of Nazism began to be apparent to those outside Germany. Before that, there was an economic miracle turning things round from a situation of 6 million unemployed in 1931.

Ann
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: thebelgianhare on June 20, 2017, 09:50:09 AM
Bishop Burch presents a Bible to the Prince

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David's message to the people
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I haven't received this book in the post yet so haven't got clear scans but is this David greeting his brother Bertie? I can't really see it clear enough to tell perhaps someone else may be able to tell :)

(http://i67.tinypic.com/syut5t.png)
Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: thebelgianhare on June 20, 2017, 10:02:10 AM
speaking with a wounded veteran of the war

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apparently not enjoying being lathered in 'all sorts' of things in public quite so much

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the 'perpetrator' of this act jolly King Neptune hehe

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Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: thebelgianhare on July 14, 2017, 06:43:35 PM
(http://i68.tinypic.com/8wf493.jpg)

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Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: thebelgianhare on July 14, 2017, 06:51:56 PM
(http://i66.tinypic.com/72bqmt.jpg)

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Title: Re: Duke and Duchess of Windsor Part 2
Post by: thebelgianhare on July 14, 2017, 06:59:28 PM
(http://i67.tinypic.com/2cz1s2t.png)

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