Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Hesse-Darmstadts (Hesse and by Rhine) => Topic started by: investigator on April 08, 2004, 04:22:17 AM

Title: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: investigator on April 08, 2004, 04:22:17 AM
What sort of a woman was Princess Anne?  She died at a young age.  How did her death effect Alexandra? Did her serious nature come because of her mother's death?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 08, 2004, 01:47:21 PM
You'll find a number of wonderful books about Alice, many of which also deal with the lives of her siblings, or of the Hesse-Darmstadt line.

From what I have read, early on Princess Alice of England showed herself to be a serious, intellectual young woman, intent on ministering to those around her.  After her marriage, and despite her growing family, she found time for a number of interests, paricularly medicine and religious philosophy.  As I understand it, to this day she is considered a great benefactress by the citizens of Hesse-Darmstadt.

Despite her being very young at the time, little Alix had to have been tremendously affected by the loss of her mother, not to mention everyone's subsequent immersion in black, plus all those trips to England and Grandmama Victoria's focus on the dear departed.  As Alix passed into adolescence many would comment on her "moodiness"--at some times laughing and light-hearted, other times withdrawn, even sullen. (Traits that many teenagers possess, but seem to have been especially pronounced in Alix!) As the youngest surviving child, and with a nature that matched her mother's own thoughtul and highly determined personality, the primary (and ultimately fatal) difference between the two of them was that Alice felt the concept of royalty outmoded, but Alix--especially upon her marriage--embraced it wholeheartedly.

Incidentally, for a dramatization of certain segments of Alice's life, you way wish to to take a look at the 1980s British miniseries, Edward the King.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: BobAtchison on April 26, 2004, 09:53:39 AM
Alice's signature is VERY like Alix's - don't you think?

Bob
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: JM on April 27, 2004, 08:23:38 AM
Does anybody know what happend to the girls' old school workbooks?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Thierry on April 27, 2004, 03:09:51 PM
Quote
But the inscription on the book said that this page was one "in a private album of the Princess Alice.." would this be Grand Duchess Alice's?


More probably it belonged to Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, daughter of the Duke of Albany and sister-in-law of Queen Mary...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Thierry on April 27, 2004, 03:13:27 PM
And by the way, Elisa, which is the exact title of the book you are talking about ?

Thanks !  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: JM on April 27, 2004, 05:12:48 PM
Quote
Does anybody know what happend to the girls' old school workbooks?


Sorry for not being clear. I meant OTMA.

Actually I found a reference in Kurth's book about Anna Anderson. Ian Lilburn ( ???) purchased the school books in London for 500 pounds. Where are they now?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Sarai on May 21, 2004, 08:48:08 AM
One thing that I particularly like about the Princess Alice was her forward way of thinking. She was really quite remarkable for her time in some ways. My impression of her is that outwardly she appeared to be the perfect Victorian wife and daughter, and seemed rather meek and submissive, but inside she was a strong lady with a sharp mind and passionate opinions. She had to be strong to nurse her ailing father during his last days and to comfort her widowed mother for so long as she so capably did, even becoming her personal secretary of sorts. Like her sister Vicky, she was quite intelligent and a good learner, albeit with a sweeter and gentler personality.

For a short time (I believe it was after Frittie's death), she even came to question her belief in religion, and this was at a time when that was nearly unthinkable. Another thing she did which defied the conventions of her time can be found in the surprising but refreshing letter which she wrote to her husband, published in Gerard Noel's book. It basically stated how unhappy she was with their marriage, how disappointing it was that he was not her intellectual equal, and how they did not have much in common at all. I think that must have taken quite a bit of courage to write, but most of all to first admit that to herself, at a time when women were supposed to idolize their husbands, ignore their shortcomings, and basically be in denial about their unhappy marriages. She probably did love her husband and was devoted to him, but she was also able to be perfectly honest with both him and herself, and realize that they were not a perfectly suited match.

Some authors contend that Alix did not inherit her mother's great interest in intellectual matters. I think this is in part true, because she didn't seem interested in scholarly or intellectual pursuits very much at all. Her interests lay more in religious study. I wonder what she thought, being such a deeply religious person, about her late mother's questioning of her faith for a time. I think that for all that mother and daughter had in common, it is a striking difference that the mother appeared to be, if anything, more progressive in some ways than her more conservative daughter, even though it's usually the other way around.

I would love to read Alix's thoughts about her mother, based on what she learned of her from relatives and perhaps even books or articles, as she couldn't have remembered very much herself. I tend to think, however, that perhaps neither her relatives nor authors of the time would have been completely forthcoming about what they may have considered the more unappealing (to their eyes) aspects of her personality, such as her crisis of faith. Unfortunately, I haven't come across many references to Alice in her daughter's writings, only references to remembering her on the anniversaries of her passing, etc., but I know full well that she still loved her even if she didn't talk much about her.

All in all, then, I think we can all agree that Alice was a complex and intelligent woman, thinking beyond her times when it came to topics such as marriage and religion, and she could have taught her children so much to further enlighten them.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Janet_W. on May 21, 2004, 12:37:27 PM
I agree with you, Sarai. Alice is definitely one of the most remarkable women I have run across in my royal readings. I particularly admire her frankness in that letter to her husband, as well as her crisis of faith which I consider could only happen to someone who was both introspective and intellectually gifted.  Another aspect of her life which I admire is that she and her older sister "Vicky" ignored their mother's rantings and ravings against nursing their own babies. Although they could at times bicker, I am sure Alice's death was a tremendous personal and even political loss to Vicky, who certainly could have used Alice's support during the years that her son Wilhelm became more and more obstreporous and her husband's health worsened.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on June 09, 2004, 07:39:55 AM
Is it possible for anyone to post an image of the paintings that Alexandra had of her mother?  Considering Alice died so young, I have found it very difficult to find images of her during her marriage except for a rare few.  

Thanks!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Dano on June 09, 2004, 07:39:58 AM
There is an outstanding biography of Princess Alice - 'Princess Alice,Queen Victoria's Forgotten Daughter' by Gerard Noel, which may be still available in paperback.'Hessian Tapestry' by David Duff is also worth reading.
The Princess named her daughter Alix because Alice could not be pronounced properly in the German tongue.
Dano.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Lisa on June 20, 2004, 04:44:17 AM
A little link in Deutch:

http://www.aliceschule-giessen.de/Alice%20(mit%20Zeiteinstellung)/sld001.htm
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on June 21, 2004, 07:09:59 AM
Elisa,

It would be great if you could post a pic or a link of the Angeli family portrait.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: RomanovFan on June 22, 2004, 05:31:51 PM
It's understandable, though, Alice and Alix's handwriting would've been similar.They were mother and daughter.
(My own mom and I are like that. I'll write something on the same peice of paper next to what she did and sometimes I can't tell who wrote what! :) )
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: RomanovFan on July 20, 2004, 06:38:16 PM
Was their marriage a happy one? or were they forced to marry for financial reasons or the need for heirs?   ???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 20, 2004, 10:45:28 PM
From everything I've read the marriage was a pretty happy one, especially in the early years before tragedy started to take it's toll on Alice's spirit. In the book of her letters published in 1888, there are many where Alice goes into great detail about her love for her "beloved husband"--his kindness, how much joy she derived from his presence, how much she missed him when he was off on military duties. However, as she was so much more inquiring and intellectual than her husband, there were periods, especially when she was questioning her faith and purpose/role in life, where Louis's more practical and simplistic outlook was at odds with hers. She often expressed a wish he was more of an intellectual bent, someone she could share her interests with. Whereas A was conflicted for years over life's twists and turns, L seemed to just plod on along, accepting God's will. While this was difficult for Alice, it doesn't seem to have affected her overall love for her husband as letters right up to the last she sent to QV are full of affection and love. It was definitely a love match--a Hessian prince in line for a dukedom wasn't THAT great a catch for the 2nd daughter of QV. The search may have been limited by eligible princes, but the heir to the Dutch throne was considered but they didn't suit and QV didn't push it. She may have often meddled and suggested, but I don't think she would've outright forced her children into an unwanted marriage and often battled more "snobbish" royals who considered some of her choices (i.e. Marquis of Lorne) as too low.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: DOMOVOII on July 21, 2004, 11:10:51 AM
I'm not so sure that they were love's young dream as such, their relationship started with all the romance you'd expect from the period, gushingly sentimental notes and messages, but it became evident that their interests were different,he was loud, bluff, she, quiet, sensitive. They did'nt have a great deal in common, and after the tragedies of their family they quietly grew apart. I remember reading a transcript of a letter sent by Pss Alice to L, (unfortunately lost) explaining that she'd come to the realisation that, unfortunately they weren't perhaps the best choice that could have been made for either of them, but that she loved him and would remain to all intents and purposes "happily married" to him.

A testament to the wonderful benevolent and kind nature this woman had.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Louise on July 21, 2004, 11:46:03 AM
There is a letter that Princess Alice wrote to Louis from Balmoral. I checked my book on Alexandra by Greg and there is a letter of the princess telling her husband of her unhappiness. The letter is in Chapter One, An English Princess

Louise
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on July 21, 2004, 12:28:35 PM
I have also read this letter and it has always seemed to me that this disappointment in her married life further contributed to her melancholia throughout the later part of her life.  Considering who she was and the stature she held, I highly doubt she would have even comtemplated separating etc, and would have remained with Louis as she did in fact love him....perhaps if she was spared to a longer life this relationship would have gotten back on track.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: DOMOVOII on July 21, 2004, 12:31:33 PM
Thank you Louise, that sounds most likely the source I was thinking of,  when I said it was lost I meant that I couldn't find it here in my study... sorry if I implied the letter had vanished.

Pardon my ignorance but who they hey is Gerald Noel?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 21, 2004, 02:31:29 PM
Just some quotes from Pss Alice's letters:

4/24/65: ...I hope my beloved Louis will arrive tonight, and be with me again--such cause for joy and thankfulness. When I have _him_ all sorrow is turned into peace and happiness.

6/27/66: (after many letters lamenting Louis's absence and fear for his safety): ..the anxiety about Louis gives me no peace...I can scarcely write; this anxiety is killing me, and my love has been so exposed. All are in admiration of his personal bravery and tender attention to the suffering and want of all around. He never things of himself and shares all the dangers and privations...my beloved husband still in danger...Anything might have happened to hiim and I can't hear it or know it! I could not go to him were he wounded...the sleepless nights of anxiety, the long days without news--_how_ I pray...dear darling Louis be spared me!

12/9/67:When Louis is at home and free...then I have _all_ that this world can give me, for I am indeed never happier than at his dera side; and time only increases our affection and binds us closer to each other.

2/17/68: (while suffering a painful & debilitating ailment)...during his (Louis's) free time in the afternoon he sat, like the best nurse in the world, near my bed in the dark room, putting wet rags on my head and trying by every possible means to alleviate my pains. He was touching in the great care he took of me...and I could bear no one else about me.

10/3/69:...(about being parted)..which is, of course, no small trial for us, who are so unaccustomed to being separated.

10/11/69...My own dear, tender-hearted Louis...does not like leaving his children, his home, and me, and really there are but few such husbands and fathers as he. To possess a heart like his, and to call it my _own_, I am ever prouder and more grateful for from year to year. Nowadays young men like Louis are rare enough, for it is ocnsidered fine to neglect one's wife...We sisters are singularly blessed in our husbands.

(throughout 1870 references to Louis's supporting her correspondence with Strauss--a controversial theologian--and full of her worries about her "dear" and "beloved" during the latest war, expressing her pride in him and singing his praises which "one hears all round")

2/2/71:...I can scarcely imagine what it will be when my beloved Louis is at home again; it seems _too great_ a joy!

2/11/71:...now I have every reason to hope--please God--that I shall have the joy of seeing Louis come home, and of placing his baby [whom he'd never seen] in his arms. My heart is full...the emotion will be so great, and the long pent-up feelings find vent.

8/20/72:...Gratitude seems barely enough to express the intense depth of what I feel when I think of that time [during the war]....dear Louis...he is all that is good and true and pure.

9/7/73: Soon I shall have my Louis back. I long for him very much....[after Frittie's death]

[the next few years are most devoted to her grief, various travels and relatives and her growing brood of children]

11/22/78:[during diptheria attacks]...I finish these lines at my dear Louis' bed...Thank God he is doing well.

Conclusion, upon her own illness: [it was noted that] when the Grand Duke entered her room her joy was most evident.

It seems, in the gap after Frittie's death and her preoccupation with her overwhelming grief is when any estrangement may have occured. Louis was certainly devastated by not in the deep, soul-searing way Alice was. However, as time went on, the deep bond seemed to have been restored as much of her spiritual searching seems to have ended and she was able to understand better those around her with their faults and frailties. I believe she loved him until the end, devotedly if not blindly. On a personal note, I believe myself happily married, yet in times of grief, including the loss of 3 unborn children, I have yelled at my husband and swore I wanted a divorce. Perhaps this letter is similar to that--women often feel these things more deeply or at least express them differently--but then, hopefully, things are righted. So many letters express her love for Louis, I don't know if 1-2 letters should outweigh over a decade's worth.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Janet_W. on July 21, 2004, 03:47:31 PM
It's very possible--indeed, probable!--to be in love but occasionally feel disappointment or a lack of connection. In fact, it's my feeling that the current "ideal" of "soul mates" is so overplayed that even the closest of couples may sometimes wonder where they went wrong.   ::)

Alice was certainly possessed of a more probing and intellectual mind than Louis, but he seems to have been very loving and supportive of her and was no doubt bewildered by her occasional frustration with him. All of this does not necessarily add up to an unhappy marriage, but a marriage between two people who initially didn't know each other very well, and were gradually working out their differences during the course of their lifetime together.

Several people have found fault with the tempermental exchanges depicted between Nicholas and Alexandra in the 1971 film. However, in my opinion such dialogue realistically represents the sort of exchange that can exist between even the most bonded of couples . . . especially if that couple has concerns regarding the inherited and possibly life-threatening condition of a child. Just ask my friends who recently celebrated the 19th birthday of their Downs Syndrome son. After going through a period where they kept asking themselves why this had happened to them and if they were being punished for any previous "sins," they have experienced and survived a number of rocky periods, realizing the truth of the saying that in Life, as in cards, it's up to you to work with the hand you're dealt.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Louise on July 21, 2004, 06:03:51 PM
Janet, you hit the nail on the head with the "soulmate" theory. Way over played. Every relationship/marriage/partnership has it fair share of problems, and road bumps. The Grand Ducal couple like every couple in the world then and now were not perfect and neither was their relationship at times. They were like us, mere mortals.

Of course like Princess Alice, I'm the perfect one in my relationship. Just ask me.

Louise
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: nerdycool on July 29, 2004, 01:35:20 PM
Here's the letter Alice wrote to Louis from Balmoral in 1876:

"I longed for a real companion, for apart from that life had nothing to offer me in Darmstadt. I could have been quite happy and contented living in a cottage, if I had been able to share my intellectual interest, and intellectual aspirations with a husband whose strong, protective love would have guided me around the rocks.... so naturally I am bitterly disappointed with myself when I look back, and see that in spite of great ambitions, good intentions, and real effort, my hopes have nevertheless been completely shipwrecked... " -- Victoria's Daughters pg. 164

She also wrote to him that "natures like your are the happiest in themselves, but are not made to help, comfort and advise others, nor to share with others the heat of life's noon-day or the cool of the evening, with insight, understanding and sympathy..." --Victoria's Daughters pg. 165
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: gem_10 on July 30, 2004, 04:58:09 AM
hi there! i'm currently looking MORE informations about Grand Duchess Alice's work as a nurse. I'm actually taking up nursing so I want to know about her contributions in improving the health system in Germany. I know she was a follower of Florence Nightingale.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Lisa on August 01, 2004, 10:40:29 AM
Quote

(http://www.farahardupre.co.uk/jpegs/14306.jpg)

A letter written by Grand Duchess Alice



I just realised that the letter is in French! Here what I could read:

"Windsor Castle
7 (...)1859

Ma chère bonne (...)

Je te remercie mille fois pour ta chère lettre que j'ai reçue il y a deux ou trois jours. Je continue de penser constament à toi avec la même affection  et je n'oublierai jamais tout ce que je (...)"
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 03, 2004, 07:02:35 AM
In his book "Victoria's Daughters", Jerrold Packard refers to a photo of Pss Alice in her wedding dress.
Does anyone know of this photo or does anyone have a copy that they might be kind enough to post?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 03, 2004, 07:30:08 AM
I certainly will copy the quote when I get home and am able to refer to the book (which I was just rereading last night)
I was a little puzzled at the idea of photographs of Alice and Ludwig on their wedding day as it was such a low key affair; apparently, on the day of the wedding her three sisters had to change out of mourning for the ceremony and then back again;Alice's own going away toilette was black.  I wouldn't have thought that there would necessarily be photos taken.
Having said that, some 19thc wedding photos were taken after the event, so there might be some of Alice in her wedding clothes....................
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Angie_H on August 03, 2004, 07:37:52 AM
This shows an engraving of Alice's Wedding
http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/alice3.jpg.

Both her wedding and her daughter Alix's wedding were shadowed by death

Angie
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on August 03, 2004, 12:43:17 PM
I believe the photo above was taken after the Prince of Wales' wedding, not her own.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 03, 2004, 01:16:59 PM
No, Bertie was clean-shaven and not so portly in his wedding, plus Arthur is too old for an 1863 picture. Plus Alice was 8 mos pregnant with Victoria. Perhaps Helena's wedding in 1866/68?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Angie_H on August 03, 2004, 02:18:11 PM
Edward & Alexandra were married March 10, 1862

Alice & Ernest were married July 1, 1862

I think the pic was taken for Edward's wedding

http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/alicegar.jpg
This pic looks like it was taken the same day
Angie
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 04, 2004, 07:29:00 AM
Elisa, here is the passage from Jerrold Packard's book that discusses Alice's wedding.  On p.103 he writes
"Osborne was where Victoria's early mourning had been carried out.  Long a central symbol of happinesss for Alice and her sisters and brothers, it had now been transformed by the Queen's command into a kind of seaside mausoleum.  But there Victoria felt safest from prying eyes, and it was at this shrine to her husband's memory that she decided that Alice's wedding would be celebrated.
Not exactly celebrated, but rather performed.  The widow would allow none of the usual happiness associated with a wedding to supersede her grief, regardless of the effect this would have  on the bridal couple.  Victoria rationalised the ceremony as essentially a religious rite rather than an occasion for revelry.  And except for the white of Alice's wedding gown, the event that transpired bore far more the hallmarks of a wake than those of a wedding."
On page 104 he continues
"A photograph of Alice taken that morning shows her draped in an elaborate white gown hemmed with orange blossom, with still more of that fragrant flower crowning her head and shoring up a Honiton lace veil.  But her face couldn't hide a sadness that seemed to speak more of tragedy than it did the beginning of a newly wedded life."
How sad.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 04, 2004, 07:44:19 AM
Hre is some more information concerning Alice's wedding dress taken from "The Royal Wedding Dresses" by Nigel Arch and Joanna Marschner (p.58).
"She (Pss Alice) wore a 'half-high dress with a deep flounce of Honiton lace, a veil of the same and a wreath of orange blossom and myrtle'.  It was a simple style and not embellished with a court train.  Queen Victoria later confided to her daughter , the Princess Royal (Vicky), that the wedding of 'poor Alice' had been 'more like a funeral'.
By contrast, at Bertie and Alix's wedding on 10th March 1863 at Windsor,'Princess Alice wore a dress of violet silk, trimmed with her wedding lace; from her shoulders streamed a court train of violet velvet trimmed with ermine which, as Queen Victoria explained, 'Beloved Mama (the late Dss of Kent) had worn at Vicky's wedding'."
The earlier photo shows Alice wearing a court train (which were definitely not worn at her wedding)and the tiara that was a gift upon her marriage from her mother.  Trains were worn by the Royal Family at Bertie's wedding but not I think at Helena's in 1866 (did Alice actually attend Helena's wedding or was Hesse actually in the throes of the war with Prussia?)
Apart from this, the style of the dress and train is probably no later than 1866 in that photo.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 04, 2004, 11:57:11 AM
Quote
Edward & Alexandra were married March 10, 1862

Alice & Ernest were married July 1, 1862

I think the pic was taken for Edward's wedding

http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/alicegar.jpg
This pic looks like it was taken the same day
Angie

No, this was definitely not Edward's wedding day.
I don't know why that photo is often referred to as Edward's wedding day. It's at least 4 years later since he was only beginning to grow that *ugly* beard (nothing like his later nice one) around the time they already had Eddy & George. Plus, Louis didn't have a beard until a couple of years after his wedding and both he and Edward look to be wearing German uniforms (esp. Edward who is wearing a Hussar uniform, I believe). Perhaps it was for a German occasion and not even a British one?  Maybe the girl's confirmation? The only other British wedding Alice was alive for was Helena's in 1866 (which fits Bertie's ugly beard time frame). Plus, as I said, Arthur was just a youngster at E&A's wedding. That's the one where he and Leopold were supposed to watch young William of Prussia and he bit their legs and caused other mischief.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 04, 2004, 12:29:23 PM
Here is a photo of the aquamarine tiara that Alice is wearing in the photo. I think it later went to Ella and then was sold.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Lisa on August 04, 2004, 12:39:43 PM
I thought it was this one...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/tiara.jpg)

(http://nl.msnusers.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nGgAAAFAHPU40TAVM7iU1bTRQiX3Fo9beVHjdkesCVJDNaTbTv4W0CUb8xMYcvYWR)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 04, 2004, 09:41:45 PM
Quote
I thought it was this one...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/lyzotchka/tiara.jpg)

(http://nl.msnusers.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=MyPhotos_GetPubPhoto&PhotoID=nGgAAAFAHPU40TAVM7iU1bTRQiX3Fo9beVHjdkesCVJDNaTbTv4W0CUb8xMYcvYWR)



Eek! You're right.  :-[ There goes my reputation down the tubes. I don't know where my brain was. I even skimmed by the one you posted when I was looking for the tiara.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 05, 2004, 08:22:12 AM
Just to clarify something that I wrote earlier.  Neither Vicky nor Alice attended Helena's wedding in 1866 due to the Austro Prussian war in which the two sisters found themselves on opposite sides.
In the photo that Grandduchessella posted that shows Alice and Ludwig, Alice seems to be wearing the outfit that I described earlier as her toilette for Bertie's wedding; her husband is wearing Garter robes.  The earlier photo shows Alice wearing quite a different dress and train.  
I wonder what the occasion was?  Oh no, this could well be the beginning of another what/who is this photo quest (like the "Who are these Grand Duchesses?")!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 05, 2004, 03:32:48 PM
Quote
He??? I got TOTALLY confused now  :-/

Which photo was taken on which occasion  ???


I think he means the one shown with Arthur, Bertie, Louis and Alice which had been ID'd as Bertie's wedding but isn't and subsequently the photo of just Alice & Louis where he's in Garter robes (whereas he's in a different uniform and bearded in the previous). Alice looks similar in both. I think Martyn's getting at the question of what were the occasions? They weren't for Bertie or Helena's wedding so what were they? The one with just Alice & Louis could've been Bertie's wedding (Louis is still unshaven so it predates 1866 and he's wearing the robes of the garter so it's an English event, Alice was heavily pregnant but it could've been camoflouged I guess but photographed?) The former with the obvious 'prop' background--could it have been taken in Germany? Is that perhaps the Schloss the background's in front of?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 05, 2004, 09:09:50 PM
DIAMOND LEAVES AND FLOWER TIARA


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/victoria20melitta.jpg)


Is this the Hesse tiara that was destroyed when the horrible Ostend crash occured?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ilana on August 05, 2004, 09:13:29 PM
Victoria and Ella of Hesse attended Helena's wedding because they were both staying with Queen Victoria at this time.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 06, 2004, 03:27:14 AM
I'm sorry if I made too much confusion with discussing the clothes in these photos.
Grandduchessella I think is right in suggesting that the photo of Alice and Louis alone is an English event (due to the Garter robes worn by the latter)  I do think that the outfit that Alice is wearing in this photo is the one that was described as having been worn for Bertie's wedding.
As for the other occasion, it is quite difficult to say where it might have taken place.  Can anyone think of any important royal functions that might have taken place between 1862 and 1866 that might have comprised an assembly of royal relatives and necessitated the wearing of court dress?
With regard to the tiara and the plane crash, I believe that Alice's diamond wedding tiara is still in existence.  The tiara that was actually involved in the plane crash was the one that had been specifically made for Onor, as a gift from Ernie.  This tiara has a lattice work design of lapis(?) and diamonds and is rather lovely in its understated design.  Onor had taken this jewel with her on the flight to England as she intended it as a wedding gift for the bride, later Pss Margaret of Hesse.  The tiara survived the terrible crash, still in its fitted case; it is illustrated in Geoffrey Munn's wonderful book.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: leslie on August 09, 2004, 02:20:45 PM
This is only my second message to this discussion board (although I am a frequent lurker) so I hope I don't make a fool of myself with this answer.  I was checking some of my books at home (Hessian Tapestry, Life at the Court of Queen Victoria, the letters between the Queen and the Crown Princess of Prussia) and it looks like Princess Alice and Prince Louis were in England during June and July of 1867, right after the Paris Exhibition.  The Sultan (can't remember of which country) had an official visit to England during that time.  There are several references in the above books that indicate Princess Alice presided over several official functions.  Perhaps the photograph was taken during one of those functions.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: nerdycool on August 11, 2004, 12:39:56 AM
In the first photo, it says it was taken in 1865. So if she were pregnant, she would be carrying Irene. I personally think it's a good possibility that she was pregnant since there was very little time between Ella and Irene.
I think Alice is sitting in the picture Grandduchessella posted... but who knows? She could have been pregnant. Maybe if we knew when it was taken, or who she was in mourning for, then maybe we could guess.
But in all, I think it would be hard to tell with her. At Bertie's wedding, there's a picture of her at 8 months with Victoria, and she didn't look pregnant at all.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 16, 2004, 09:23:16 AM
That's a good suggestion.  You are absolutely right.  The Sultan of Turkey was making a State visit to England in !867 and this photo could well mark that occasion.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 16, 2004, 09:26:24 AM
First off, welcome! Secondly I don't think that's a foolish guess at all. Sounds like it very well could've been it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 16, 2004, 09:58:05 AM
Grandduchessella, you are a complete star!  What an absolute treat!  That has completely made my day. How can I thank you enough for that wonderful photo?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 16, 2004, 10:09:20 AM
Well it sure looks like Alice and the wedding toilette seems to fit the description that I posted earlier.......
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 16, 2004, 10:18:54 AM
Quote
Grandduchessella, you are a complete star!  What an absolute treat!  That has completely made my day. How can I thank you enough for that wonderful photo?


Oh, well, throwing showers of flowers will be enough.  ;D I mean, I now have officially made it to 'God' status on the board after a long, hard slog.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 16, 2004, 10:32:01 AM
And therein lies hope for us all.  I must admit "Junior" does not sit well with me at my time of life!
Flowers are not enough, I am willing to kiss the hem of your robe for the images that you bestow upon us!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 20, 2004, 12:01:50 PM
The widow of Windsor shrouded in blackest crepe.....  Do you think that Alice minded that her wedding was so low key, almost funereal?  Or do we think that she was so happy to be marrying Ludwig that none of it mattered too much?
If the marriage hadn't been so dear to Pce Albert's heart I feel pretty sure that Victoria would have cancelled it but as he had been so set upon the match, she doggedly went through with it.
That photo of the family after the Wales wedding looks equally glum; I have read that mourning restrictions were not lifted even for the wedding of the heir to the throne (Alice wore a violet silk dress and a train of violet coloured velvet - half mourning)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 20, 2004, 01:35:03 PM
Quote
The widow of Windsor shrouded in blackest crepe.....  Do you think that Alice minded that her wedding was so low key, almost funereal?  Or do we think that she was so happy to be marrying Ludwig that none of it mattered too much?
If the marriage hadn't been so dear to Pce Albert's heart I feel pretty sure that Victoria would have cancelled it but as he had been so set upon the match, she doggedly went through with it.
That photo of the family after the Wales wedding looks equally glum; I have read that mourning restrictions were not lifted even for the wedding of the heir to the throne (Alice wore a violet silk dress and a train of violet coloured velvet - half mourning)


If you look closely, isn't that a photo of Albert that Alexandra's holding. I have this CDV and will have to dig it out and check. I have another one which shows just Alexandra & Victoria, again, gazing at Albert. I think there was a series done before and right after the wedding with various groupings all centered around--you guessed it, Albert! If you look at the sketch of Alice's wedding, you'll notice that the room it took place in had a HUGE copy of Winterhalter's family portrait and it looks like Albert is extending a hand of benediction upon Alice. I read that it was partly because of this painting that Victoria chose the room she did.

PS Of course after posting this, I went and looked at the scan and you can't really see Albert clearly in the painting, but if you know the one and have seen it reproduced, you know what I'm talking about (the outstretched hand).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 21, 2004, 08:10:24 AM
Albert must have cast a very long shadow over his children and their partners.
Thre is another photo (I think that it is in "Victoria's Daughters") that shows the Queen, Alice and Helena grouped around a bust of Albert (might be a portrait - can't quite remember) with poor Alice looking so sad.
By contrast, there is a lovely photo in "Camera and the Tsars" with four generations of Konstantinovichi; Alexandra Iosifovna, Olga of Greece, Marie Pavlovna the younger and her baby.  If I remember correctly, Olga is holding a picture of Alexandra Georgievna (who was of course deceased).  Such a contrast to the gloomy Wales picture..................
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Lisa on August 21, 2004, 08:59:29 AM
(http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/mourn2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Lisa on August 21, 2004, 09:00:18 AM
(http://www.btinternet.com/~sbishop100/mourn3.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: princessalice on August 21, 2004, 10:41:38 AM
as Princess Alice is my great favorite in royal history, I love this discussion!!!  i would agree with the folks who say great passion often dies.....

my husband and i have been married 19 years this October.  we have three children, have lost 4 through miscarriage, and, of course, i love him.  he's stayed with me through the good and the worst of my life, the death 10 yrs ago of my own beloved 59-year old mother.  he's half Swedish, half Austrian, so i say he was doomed from the start!!!  he isn't a "chatter box" like i am, sometimes i tell him he doesn't listen to me (he doesn't always....), but he's a wonderful provider, my best friend and a dear person.  after all of these years, i can't say the passion is the same, hey, we are both 47, he will be 48 next week!!, and tired half the time!!!

i think maybe Alice and Louis might have reached that point.  today she might be called bi-polar (i have had a lifelong struggle with depression.....), but i believe they must have had a good marriage, she might not have been intellectually fulfilled in her marriage, but a lot of folks can say that.....my husband loves Star Trek, i love European history, esp. that of Germany....a lot of folks don't share the same interests...it keeps life unique though!!

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on August 21, 2004, 04:30:00 PM
Quote
Albert must have cast a very long shadow over his children and their partners.
Thre is another photo (I think that it is in "Victoria's Daughters") that shows the Queen, Alice and Helena grouped around a bust of Albert (might be a portrait - can't quite remember) with poor Alice looking so sad.
By contrast, there is a lovely photo in "Camera and the Tsars" with four generations of Konstantinovichi; Alexandra Iosifovna, Olga of Greece, Marie Pavlovna the younger and her baby.  If I remember correctly, Olga is holding a picture of Alexandra Georgievna (who was of course deceased).  Such a contrast to the gloomy Wales picture..................


Yes, QV certainly knew how to cast a gloomy shadow, always posing family members around photos or busts of Albert. In all fairness, though, I'll just say that the ones shown with QV were taken pretty soon after Albert's death (w/in 1-2 yrs) and he was beloved by all his children (1/2 of whom were at least teens if not married). The 4 generation photo of MP was taken almost 20 yrs after GDss Alexandra's death. While she was certainly beloved, Queen Olga & AI (her grandmother) would've been the most affected. MP didn't remember her (so her grief would've been different then Albert's children--she would probably be more like Beatrice). I imagine if there'd been a similar photo of QV, Alix & Olga with a photo of Alice, it might've looked similar to the other 4 generation one.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on August 23, 2004, 09:09:09 AM
Yes you are probably quite right Grandduchessella.  My feelings about QV tend to fluctuate depending on what I am currently reading (at the moment "Louis and Victoria" so fairly positive - before that Victoria's Daughters, so less positive)
I think that we shouldn't undersetimate how intense the Queen's initial grief was and how heavy the burden that fell on Alice's young shoulders.  Indeed QV retired each year on "the terrible day", Dec 14th, prostrated with grief, breaking off only to go to the mausoleum  at Frogmore or to pray in the Blue Room in Windsor.  In her defence it must be added that it was also the anniversary of Alice's death and indeed Bertie had very nearly succumbed to typhoid on this very date in 1871, so it really did have terrible associations for her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: pushkina on September 03, 2004, 06:40:29 AM
Quote

  The tiara that was actually involved in the plane crash was the one that had been specifically made for Onor, as a gift from Ernie.  This tiara has a lattice work design of lapis(?) and diamonds and is rather lovely in its understated design.  Onor had taken this jewel with her on the flight to England as she intended it as a wedding gift for the bride, later Pss Margaret of Hesse.  The tiara survived the terrible crash, still in its fitted case; it is illustrated in Geoffrey Munn's wonderful book.


sorry to be a pain, but might you have a pictureof the mentioned tiara that you could share with us?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on September 03, 2004, 06:44:33 AM
I will have to scan a picture of it and send it to the FA.  By the way I said that it was lapis and diamonds but it isn't lapis at all.  I will try to supply the correct information when I send the picture.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: princessalice on September 08, 2004, 07:49:47 AM
hello all!!!  i love this thread!!  Alice is also my great favorite in royal history, I find her to be an incredible, remarkable person!  thanks for all of the lovely pictures, too!  i collect royalty postcards and just have one small CDV of Alice and her brother, The Prince of Wales, but am always looking for others, my $$ is rather limited, but i hope to have more of Alice one day!!

God bless you all.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on September 09, 2004, 07:02:36 PM
I read in Hessian Tapestry about there being tales of Alice's ghost haunting the castle! I think it said that people heard her voice calling out for her children or something like that! Does anyone know more about this? ....My two favorite subjects...Royalty and ghosts!!!  ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: princessalice on September 09, 2004, 09:21:42 PM
as a Christian, i have always wondered what heaven is like....maybe it's not really a place, but just a different plane of existence.  i like to think your spirit might go back to the places where you were the happiest.  for me, it would be my childhood, growing up in Texas in the country.  maybe, for the Grand Duchess Alice, Hesse was one of her happiest places, although i know she told her mother in one letter that her own childhood was the happiest time of her life.  Hesse was where she had her children, where she loved Louis.  maybe Alice is around that area sometimes, watching and remembering....

i lost my mother 10 yrs ago very suddenly, it was a devastating time in my life and the lives of my family.  she was a big part of who i was, and who i had thought i would become.  but, i have often felt her spirit around me.  i believe your soul is what makes you really you, that the body our souls live in is just a shell.  i like to think my Mom watches me, too....

hope this wasn't too "out there."  i've just thought about Alice, too, in that respect.  she is my great favorite in German history, it would be nice to think she lends her light to that part of Germany sometime...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on September 10, 2004, 09:03:39 AM
David Duff has this to say in 'Hessian Tapestry':
'After his wife's death, the Grand Duke closed Kranichstein, and it returned to the slumber from which Alice had awoken it fifteen years before.  The ghost of her was alone in the rooms that she had loved.  People who walked in the woods told how they had seen her face at the windows, and heard her happy voice calling her childen in from play.'
Shortly after her marriage the Grand Duke of Hesse had taken her to see the old castle of Kranichstein, which was situated in the wooded hills a few miles north-east of Darmstadt.  Although no one had lived there for nearly a hundred years Alice fell in love with it; she expressed a desire to live there in the summer months and as a result her father-in-law had the castle renovated.
The castle was ready for occupancy after Louis and Alice returned from England after the birth of Victoria, and they spent the first of many happy summers there.
The Duke of Cambridge visited them at Kranichstein after the Congress of the German Princes and pronounced that it was " a very nice old place which they have managed to make very comfortable".  Bertie also visited Alice at her Summer home and enjoyed the peace and informality that he found there.
Quite fitting then that Alice's spirit should linger in a place in which she had found much peace and pleasure.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on September 10, 2004, 09:22:28 AM
Oh, thank you Martyn for that! I knew I had read something about it! You're right, how fitting that her spirit should linger where she was most happy. Does anyone know how long after her death the sightings began? And have there been any recent sightings?

Also, would anyone like to share stories about other Royal ghosts?? Has anyone seen one???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on September 10, 2004, 10:59:54 AM
When I first read that passage in "Hessian Tapestry" I wasn't quite sure whether David Duff was being artistic or whether he literally meant that people had seen Alice's ghost and heard her voice.  I think , on rereading, that he was being literal in this instance.
I may be wrong but I rather suspect that the people who saw and heard her may have been the loyal Hessians who missed her most and wanted to believe that a part of her was still with them in spirit.
However, ready as ever to hear other opinions!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on September 11, 2004, 09:34:29 AM
Geoffery Munn in his book'Tiaras a History of Splendour' describes Onor's tiara (the one that survived the crash) as follows:
"A remarkable tiara arranged as a diamond-set diadem bound with criss-crossing ribbons of blue and white stripes cleverly suggested with moonstone and turquoise.  The illusion is heightened when the ribbons travel to the back of the tiara, and there they are suggested with blue and white enamel.  Mounted in platinum, this tiara is a tour-de-force of the jeweller's art.  The rings at the back are lined with yellow gold so that the sharp edges of the platinum will not cut through the silk ties they are designed to acommodate.  This jewel, preumably protected by a strong-box, was on board the aircarft that crashed when the princely family of Hesse flew to England for the marriage of Prince Louis to the Hon. Margaret Geddes in 1937."
The style of this piece and the quality of the setting suggest that it was made in Russia by a competitor of Faberge.  The ribbon element of the design may well be emblematic of true love and possibly also the Hessian colours?
Princess Margaret of Hesse and By Rhine often wore the jewel - the last time being at Buckingham Palace in 1986 for Q.Elizabeth II's sixtieth birthday celebrations.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: gem_10 on September 13, 2004, 09:34:07 PM
I greatly admired Princess Alice. She certainly is a remarkable as a princess. She was very religious and always seek answers to her questions about religion. She had a very inquiring mind! She was very interested in medicine and even attended classes in Anatomy (Queen Victoria somehow disapproved this)! By the way, speaking about Alice's interest in medicine and nursing, did Ella studied nursing practices? Her knowledge about nursing surely helped her after she built her convent.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchess_ella on September 13, 2004, 10:41:35 PM
I think Ella was too young to have studied alongside Alice before she died, but it must've been a major influence in their lives even after her death. There were many nursing organizations & hospitals that didn't exist before Alice arrived. Plus, she'd accumulated quite the list of correspondents--Florence Nightingale among them. I don't know how involved Ella was while in Hesse, but certainly by the Russo-Japanese war she was becoming involved in at least the fund-raising aspect of helping the wounded if not the hands-on.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: CuriousOne on September 16, 2004, 03:42:11 PM
As a kid I grew up with stories about ghosts.  Some were happy ghosts and some ghosts drug chains....  As a kid I always thought these tales were true.  As I grew older,  I concluded ghosts were envented and couldn't exsist.  Therefore,  I felt,  if someone saw one,  they were probably suffering from some kind of mental illness; had too much to drink; smoked or comsume something that caused them to see things which were not really there;  were impressionalbe and thought they saw something that wasn't really there;  or,  were in some kind of state of hysteria.

That is until I had my experience.   Which was:

I was visiting a castle in Scotland and like so many others were on a tour.  I walked from room to room and listen to the tour guide....

In one particular room,  I entered first and something very interesting occured.  I could see the room as it was at that point in time and  then it was like someone had sent a faint image from a movie projector that covered the room.  I saw a throne room with people being presented to a woman sitting on the throne.  I tried to remember the faces.... the clothes.... everything and anything...  The images faded and the room was back  to "normal", as it was to everyone who hadn't seem what I had seen.  

The tour guide told us about  the room and the items in it.  As we started to the next room,  I passed the tour guide and stopped.  I asked the guide if this room had ever been the throne room.  The guide said it had during the reign of Mary Queen of Scots.

After the tour,  I bolted toward the shop that sells stuff to tourists and took up a book on Mary Queen of Scots.   I knew what she looked like but I wanted to know the name of one of the ghostly men I had seen...  But he wasn't in the first book nor the second..... Since then I continue to search for his face in books.

The moral of the story is:  Do not be too sure that there are no ghost,  because, you, too, might meet one or more when you least expect it.

Curious One
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on September 17, 2004, 06:02:16 AM
Far be it from me to rule it out.  I'm trying (unsuccesfully) to remember the quote from Hamlet that goes something like "There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are contained in your philosophy Horatio" - someone correct this please..............
Whilst I don't like the idea of Alice being an unhappy spirit, trapped forever in Kranichstein, I do understand that her attachment to the place may be a reason for some echo of her, whatever form it might take, to linger there.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: NAAOTMA on September 18, 2004, 01:37:35 AM
Then there is the "White Lady" of the Romanov Family, who appears when a family member is going to die. She is clad in white and carries white roses, according to the legend. She seems to have left white roses wrapped in white crepe material in the bedroom of Alexander II, which he woke up to find on the morning of the day that he died...she was/is only seen by family members.

Whether this is true or not, it is a good ghost story. It is a bit similar to the Estonian ghost legend of the "White Lady of Hapasalu" who appears in the window of the castle of that town in Estonia in late July every year as she has for centuries...I have not seen her yet, but maybe someday...   Melissa K.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: NAAOTMA on September 18, 2004, 01:46:19 AM
Elisa, I really love the Cripps book! But it is so full of typos. It is sort of odd to have all those wonderful pictures, and then the poor editing and proofing. In it you see the Romanov little children in earlier generations with very large heads...that must be the side of the family that GD Olga N. got that trait from! I have enjoyed this thread, and will look into the books you have suggested. Melissa K.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on September 18, 2004, 02:44:23 AM
Quote
A very nice link with an engraving of Princess Alice from the lovely sculpture at Osborne. (Thanks Joanna! :))
Under Mary Thornycroft on this link can be found the engravings of her other great sculptures of Alice's brothers and sisters.http://www.artandarchitecture.org.uk/images/conway/09e683dc.html


If anyone's ever interested many these images (of the royal children) come up for sale on Ebay quite frequently. (Though the site link above offers them for sale as well--didn't check the price). The one of Alice was up just recently--may still be? I don't think I'd ever seen the Vicky one before. From another time they were up (of Helena & Louise respectively) I saved this info:
FROM THE ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: There is not, we believe, such an official in the Lord Chamberlain's department of the royal household as that of "Sculptor to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty; "if there were, Mrs. Thornycroft would undoubtedly be in possession of "letters patent " confirmatory of such appointment. But although the lady bears not this honorable title, she certainly enjoys all its privileges, inasmuch as the largest portion of the private patronage of royalty seems to fall to her share; the Queen, the Prince Consort, with most, if not all, of the royal progeny, have been reproduced in marble by her industrious and well-directed hand. It has been a frequently debated question whether modern portrait-sculpture should be treated, as to costume, after the fashion of the time, or according to that which had its origin in the great masters of antiquity, and which is usually known as the "classic style." Undoubtedly the costume of our own day, whether it be that of man, woman, or child, has small pretension to aesthetic beauty of any kind, but especially to those qualities universally recognized as constituting sculptural beauty. "What is gained in individuality by adopting the ordinary modern dress, we lose in the graces of the sculptor's art.
Mrs. Thornycroft has inclined to this opinion in her statue of the Princess Helena: there is here nothing which approaches to a compromise of the two styles; the figure is of a pure classic character even to the sandals of the feet. But to give a personality to it, independent of the portrait, the young royal lady is symbolized as " Peace," bearing in her left hand a palm-branch, the emblem of " Victory," and in her right a sprig of olive with the fruit, the especial attribute of " Peace: " this is held forth in the half-opened hand, as if inviting some one to take it. The dress is nothing more than a loose robe, with short sleeves falling easily from the shoulder where it fits rather tightly. The expression of the face is quiet, and very pleasing; the hair is not braided, but falls in thick, wavy masses down the back.
The work, executed for, and in the possession of, Her Majesty, commends itself by the good taste and simplicity of the design; it is what the representation of a young girl, whether of high or low position, ought to be-an embodiment of the purity and modesty of nature with the purity and modesty of Art-treatment.
BIOGRAPHY OF ARTIST: Mary Thornycroft (1814- 1895) was the daughter of the sculptor John Francis. She was born in Norfolk and trained in her father's studio and first exhibited at the Royal Academy at the age of 21 years. In 1840 she married the sculptor Thomas Thornycroft and they went to live and work in Rome. She was engaged by Queen Victoria to do life size statues of the Royal children, the four eldest representing the 'Four Seasons' and they were a great success. In 1863 she made the first bust of Alexandra, Princess of Wales. Some of her other works are - Busts of Queen Victoria, Princess Helena, Princess Alice and the Duchess of Edinburgh and they are all in the Royal collection. Her statue The Skipping Rope is at Osborne A statue by her of Prince Alfred caused much offence to a teetotaller who objected strongly to his holding a bunch of grapes.
FROM THE ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: This is a companion work of the statue of 'Peace, the Princess Helena,' engraved in our last number. Assuming, though such is not always the case, that plenty follows in the train of peace, the sculptor has given to the young royal lady the symbols or attributes of the time of harvesting and fruit-gathering, as indicative of abundance, typifying barns filled with golden grain, and the wine-press with the produce of the orchard and the vineyard. She holds in her hands a cornucopia of ripe fruit; at her feet are some ears of wheat. There is an appropriate distinction in the treatment of the two figures, as we read each respectively. 'Peace' stands in an attitude of rest; the lines of the drapery, as well as the position of the limbs, indicate repose: 'Plenty' is in motion; she is carrying home the gathered fruit, the bared arm shows her to have been at work, and the robe hangs loosely on the person, as if disarranged by labor, yet there is no carelessness in the disposition of the garment, it is modeled with a due regard to richness of effect, though had the uppermost folds been a little less strongly marked than they are, it would have improved its general appearance. Independently of the interest these works cannot fail to excite as pleasing examples of sculptured Art, they must be welcome as portraits, and faithful ones too, of children of the most popular monarch in Christendom, our own most gracious and deservedly loved Queen. Politics are, happily, excluded from the column? of our journal, and we have no desire to enter their arena, but we may be allowed to say there is no true Englishman or woman who does not desire that our Queen may long be preserved to us and her children.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on September 18, 2004, 11:22:36 AM
Thomas it is at the end of chapter 15 which in the English version is titled "The Kiss of Death".  I must say that I love this book and have read it a couple of times since I got it a couple of months ago.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ilana on September 18, 2004, 12:33:33 PM
Martyn, it's the Nicholas and ALexandra of the Hesse family.  Stirs loads of interest.  I love the book too, and love how he writes.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on September 18, 2004, 03:17:33 PM
I can't describe the quality of the book but it has a charm that makes it quite lovely to read.  David Duff seems to have a big emotional investment in his subjects that really gives it a special quality.  The only other book that has had a similar impact for me was Hannah Pakula's "The Last Romantic".
That passage about the ghost of Alice remaining at Kranichstein is almost poetic; it's very hard to describe the appeal of this book.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Annie on September 18, 2004, 05:02:17 PM
Is she the only ghost? After such tragedy I'd think there'd be more spirits there.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: RomanovFan on September 19, 2004, 07:33:30 PM
I've always thought that maybe Alix, Nicky, the girls and Alexei haunt the place where the Ipatiev House used to stand. Wouldn't that make sense? Now there is only a cross that stands in its place, in honor of their memory.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Dashkova on September 19, 2004, 08:39:17 PM
You must be new to all of this.  Check out this update:

http://www.ekaterinburg.tv/sp/photoalbum6.htm
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: RomanovFan on September 19, 2004, 09:27:07 PM
Quote
You must be new to all of this.  Check out this update:

http://www.ekaterinburg.tv/sp/photoalbum6.htm


Wow! Thanks for the update, Dashkova. I had no idea that there was a cathederal built there! That's neat! Are there any photos of the inside of the cathederal? Are all the members of the Imperial family supposed to be standing on the bronze cross? It's hard to tell who's who except for Nicholas II. I spotted his figure right away.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Annie on September 20, 2004, 07:44:06 AM
If I was going to haunt, I'd pick the place I was happiest at, not the place I was most miserable.:(

I have been emailing with a Russian girl who lives in St. Petersburg and works as a translator and tour guide for the palaces. She says you CAN feel a presence in some of them, and strange things have happened on lonely nights. It's so common no one even questions it anymore. So maybe they went home after all:)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Michelle on September 25, 2004, 10:13:51 AM
Even though I'm very skeptical of ghosts, and that if I did see one I'd no doubt be terrified, I would kinda like to see the ghosts of NAOTMAA.  I doubt they'd really be all that scary. But, nevertheless, I most likely would still be "spooked." :D

Annie, did your Russian friend say which palaces she feels presences in?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: RomanovFan on September 25, 2004, 01:59:30 PM
Quote from: Annie, did your Russian friend say which palaces she feels presences in?[/quote


I think she meant the palace that her friend is tour guide for: the palace that was recently built where the Ipatiev House used to stand.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Angie_H on October 11, 2004, 06:46:30 AM
I was bored yesterday so I was re-reading Anastasia : The Lost Princess by James B. Lovell. In the very beginning of the book it says that many British royals considered Alice psychic. That's the first I've ever read that. Has anyone else ever heard that about Alice before?
Angie
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on October 15, 2004, 08:31:05 AM
David Duff in "Hessian Tapestry" mentions this briefly.  In a section in which he deals with Alice's spiritual crisis that she seems to have suffered just before the birth of Alix, he has this to say, which is possibly related.
'It was during Princess Alice's sojourn in the wilderness that her sixth child, and fourth daughter, was born, on 6th June 1872.  It has been suggested that the mysticism of the future Empress of Russia was due to her being conceived at a time when her mother was in a state of tension over her religious convictions.'
In a footnote at the bottom of the page he states this
'Frances, Countess of Warwick, was of the opinion that Princess Alice was both clairvoyant and psychic.'
Sadly, he gives no further clarification does not say from whence this information came.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 15, 2004, 10:02:07 AM
This kind of relates to Alice, so here goes--

Apparently Prince Leopold (Alice's brother) kept dreaming of Alice, who had died 6 years previously, right before he died. Charlotte Zeepvat writes: "His mind always turned to Alice when there was trouble in the family: this, and plans for the wedding (of Alice's daughter Victoria) were enough to explain the dreams, but after his death they would be given quite another meaning."
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Guinastasia on October 26, 2004, 10:20:43 AM
I don't know how others feel about the book, but I'd take anything gleaned from The Lost Princess with a shoveload of salt.  

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Karentje on October 26, 2004, 11:04:18 AM
I agree, in the Lost Princess the difference between fact and fiction (or "memories") isn't always very clear to say the least.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Angie_H on October 26, 2004, 11:08:20 AM
I know! The Lost Princess is a bunch of donkey dust as my great grandmother use to say. (I use that expression because it is the only thing I could think of that was not offensive  ;D) I was just curious if anyone else have heard of it
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 28, 2004, 02:21:25 PM
Isn't the common phrase "kiss of death" attributed to the comment by the British prime minister after he heard that Princess Alice, after learning that her child sick with typhoid was starting to recover, kissed him and then caught the disease and ulitimatey died?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: HerrKaiser on October 28, 2004, 02:49:13 PM
When did the men stop wearing crowns in public and in pictures? In all the photos since photography began, men had bare heads, with the infrequent exception of a hat. Yet, in middle ages, kings and princes and dukes are often depicted with a simple crown or headband type jeweled ornamentation. What triggered the switch that crowns were/are only worn by the royal women?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: ashanti01 on October 28, 2004, 03:19:32 PM
Maybe someone here might know this. A few months ago on Ebay I saw a book about Princess Alice. I had never seen nor heard of it. I didn't buy it then, because they wanted too much for it. Anyhow I have not been able to locate it. It was completly just about her, does anyone know the title of it?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on October 28, 2004, 03:21:56 PM
Quote
Maybe someone here might know this. A few months ago on Ebay I saw a book about Princess Alice. I had never seen nor heard of it. I didn't buy it then, because they wanted too much for it. Anyhow I have not been able to locate it. It was completly just about her, does anyone know the title of it?


The only 2 I know of are a book from about 1888 of Princess Alice's correspondence edited or with a foreward by Helena. The other is Gerard Noel's book Forgotten Princess. It's a really good book--no pictures alas!--that was out of print but was reissed not too many years ago in trade paperback and can be found.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on October 30, 2004, 02:43:30 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/PrinceEddy1864/alicewed.jpg)

Is this the photo grandduchessella posted a long time ago of Alice on her wedding day. The image did not appear on my computer. This is one of only two of Alice I have seen on her wedding day.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 30, 2004, 03:43:41 AM
This is the first time I've actually seen this particular image of Alice in her wedding dress! The one posted in this discussion earlier was a side view. (Can be found in vol. 2 of Queen Victoria's letters to Vicky if I remember correctly) It's always so great to see new photos! Welcome, Eddy1864! :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on October 30, 2004, 11:39:34 AM
Hello everyone, I found this photo a long time ago in a book about Royal weddings. The exact title of the book escapes me at the moment though. I look forward to talking to everyone in the future.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Lisa on October 30, 2004, 12:07:51 PM
Thank you very much Prince Eddy 1864 for this superb photo! :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2004, 01:18:10 PM
Welcome to the group! You are definitely making a splash with your great photos.  :)  Let me guess--is Prince Albert Victor one of your favorites?  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on October 30, 2004, 03:25:21 PM
Yes he is definatly one of my favorites in the British Royal family. His brother George is a close second.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on October 30, 2004, 04:15:29 PM
OK, I'm going to do it again. Put somthing a little off topic on for the sake of some neat photos. I am just really kind of excited about being able to post photos, so bear with me. These two photos came from a book I just recently found, and had previously never even heard of called "Happy and Glorious" 130 Years of Royal Photographs ed. Colin Ford. Both photos I had never seen before. The first is Alice in The Seasons drama. I am sure we have all seen the more well known photos of the children in their outfits. I have even seen the one of Alice by herself reclining (found in the Royal Children book), but not this one. It was taken in Feb of 1854. The second photo was found in the same Happy and Glorious book. It depicts Alice with her sisters Lenchen and Louise (Louise is the one holding Alice's hand). It was taken in July of 1858. I just loved both of these photos and they are of Alice so they fit here right.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/PrinceEddy1864/alicefeb1854.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/PrinceEddy1864/Alicelenloujuly582.jpg)

Bye.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Angie_H on October 30, 2004, 04:32:59 PM
Here is a pic of all the children during the season drama
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/booboogbs/AliceArthurVickyHelenaLouiseAlfredBertie1853.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2004, 05:11:30 PM
Quote
Yes he is definatly one of my favorites in the British Royal family. His brother George is a close second.


Ah, it will be good to have another George fan on the site to help me defend him.  :)  You'll also find a kindred spirit with Alicky1872 who loves 'The Duke'.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on October 30, 2004, 05:12:52 PM
Oh, I have that book--it's great. I enjoyed it even more than Francis Diamond's book on royal photographs. It can still be found in used bookstores. Love the little tableaux that QV & Prince Albert put on with the children.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on October 31, 2004, 05:56:07 AM
Eddy would it be possible for you to let me know in which book you found this photo please?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on October 31, 2004, 09:58:42 AM
Quote
Posted by: grandduchessella Posted on: Oct 30th, 2004, 5:11pm  

 
Ah, it will be good to have another George fan on the site to help me defend him.    You'll also find a kindred spirit with Alicky1872 who loves 'The Duke'.


Hee hee hee...Grandduchessella, you know me so well! In fact, since there are now at least 2 "Duke" fans on this site, I'm going to post some of my favorite pictures of him in The Windsors section!  ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on October 31, 2004, 10:37:41 AM
I had made a previous post about the book but I actually found it in a book about royal weddings. I can not remember the actual title of the book. Sorry. It had info and photos from several royal weddings from QV onto the present (about the 1980s).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Angie_H on October 31, 2004, 02:06:59 PM
Quote
I had made a previous post about the book but I actually found it in a book about royal weddings. I can not remember the actual title of the book. Sorry. It had info and photos from several royal weddings from QV onto the present (about the 1980s).

Eddy if you can PLEASE try to remember the name of the book!!!
Angie
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 02, 2004, 09:16:22 PM
Quote
Posted by: PrinceEddy1864 Posted on: Today at 7:59pm
Really I have heard of that book but that is not where I got the picture.


I took a look at my copy of Hessian Tapestry, and the one you posted is actually a smaller version of the one in the book, which includes Ella, Ernie and even little May! I definately recommend that book!

I think you'll really enjoy The Royal Baby Album! ;)

Ok--I decided to go upstairs and find that picture to scan for you, (Not an easy feat when it's 3am and you're 9 months pregnant!) ;) because you've been so good with posting all your wonderful pictures!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/hesstap.jpg)
I apologize for the quality!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 06, 2004, 04:47:51 PM
This is definately a hard one. I'm leaning more towards Victoria, but maybe this will help:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/e8112c9b.jpg)

Plus I just love these photos, and was going to post them anyway! :D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 06, 2004, 07:50:35 PM
Not to give Royalty Digest a plug, because it can be costly, but personally I think it is the best royalty interest journal around, without being too specialised.
It does not cover the modern royal scene very much but does try to include- just a bit- some of the non-euro royals from time-to-time, especially if they come into the time period we pretty much cover here.
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 06, 2004, 08:34:42 PM
Yes, I second that! A subscription is worth every penny! It is the best Royal magazine out there. I get so frustrated with Majesty, the best articles (ones about Victorian Royalty) always get put aside for silly things like what hats the Queen is wearing, or yet another Diana story. :P I wrote to Joe Little many times, complaining about there not being enough good articles! He said that he also gets complaints about there being too many articles on "old Royalty!" (Why on earth I can't imagine!) For me, it's frustrating when they publish the stories that have been re-hashed in the papers and on the news, when they could be publishing so many other fascinating stories! (Like the story on Ella that they mentioned last year, which has unfortunately been put off indefinately!) But I was told that since Majesty is a "journal of record", they must publish current events...as rehashed as they are. ::) (Can you tell I'm bitter?) LOL! And even when they do publish an article on someone interesting, it's usually a brief summary of their life, no new facts, just easy reading for the people out there who are "new" to the old Royals, because at the end of the day, the magazine has to sell. BUT, sometimes the pics are great! Royalty magazine is a bit too tabloidy for my tastes. The "good" articles are few and far between. So...Royalty Digest is by far the best because it centers on the era that I think most of us on this site find the most interesting. Sorry for rambling on....and on! ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 06, 2004, 10:01:37 PM
MAJESTY is primarily a colour picture mag of royal events. That is the record they are a "journal" of.
It is okay to browse through, but what little interesting articles they do hapen to publish are few and far bewteen.
Not worth the investment, unless, like you mention, a collector of those particular people.
ROYALTY MONTHLY I will not EVEN get into !!!
Cheers,
Robert
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 07, 2004, 07:34:06 AM
I found some of Alice's drawings that I wanted to share with everyone...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/lv.jpg)
So sweet, of Louis and little Victoria!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/gurutiek/ernie.jpg)
Ernie at Kranichstein

The artistic talent of Queen Victoria's daughters never ceases to amaze me!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 07, 2004, 10:39:47 AM
But Alice looks younger in this picture. It certainly is an interesting theory.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 09, 2004, 05:31:15 PM
Hi! If anyone was interested in that picture I posted of Princess Alice with pictures of her babies (I won't quote the pic, don't want FA mad at me! ;)) I tracked down the issue of Royalty Digest that it came from!

Volume XIII No. 6 (December 2003) It was from an excellent article about the christenings of Alice's children. You can order back issues at their website:
ftp://http://www.picrare.com/Royalty_Digest/index.htm
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on November 09, 2004, 09:12:39 PM
Quote
Okay, this may be kind of random, but does anyone know Alice's birthday? Some books record it as April 23rd while others April 25th. Does anyone know the answer?


The book of Alice's letters from 1888 says 4/25
Childhood at Court says 4/25
Gerard Noel's bio says 4/25

Hope this helps.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 10, 2004, 04:30:00 AM
Speaking of birthdays, I've read various books that said Alix's birthday was June 6th, and June 7th!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 10, 2004, 11:36:44 AM
Thank you Elisa! :D You know, I still have to get Love Power and Tragedy...and the Knodt book about Ernie! I'm a bit behind there I'm afraid! I've heard wonderful things about LPT book, and it would be wonderful to see more of Alice's drawings! What is the Knodt book like?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2004, 12:13:24 PM
Quote
Thank you Elisa! :D You know, I still have to get Love Power and Tragedy...and the Knodt book about Ernie! I'm a bit behind there I'm afraid! I've heard wonderful things about LPT book, and it would be wonderful to see more of Alice's drawings! What is the Knodt book like?


All in German! I have it and it's been sloooow going. I wish there was a bit more about young Elizabeth (his daughter) and his relationship with VM, but they are dismissed pretty quickly (based on the index and what I've deciphered so far). A good bit of the book is focused on his works in the arts.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 10, 2004, 01:45:52 PM
OH Alicky, let Love, Power and Tragedy be the next thing you get. I just stated in another thread how it is one of my favorite posessions. It is great. It has pics of Nicky and Alix as children as well as their families. All the photos of OTMAA are incredible as well.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 10, 2004, 02:52:15 PM
Well I know just enough German to eek by, but not enough to get through a book without the help of Freetranslation.com! ;) Oh, I really want those Ernie books now! Especially 'Erinnertes', it would be incredible to read his own words! So does this book include all his memoirs? I've read on this site, how Greg King is working on an English bio of Ernie---I CAN'T WAIT! I wish someone would publish VHM's memoirs though!!!!

The only thing putting me off getting Love, Power and Tragedy is the price--but I KNOW it's worth it! I'm afraid I won't be able to get it any time soon though... I've been very naughty on Ebay lately! ::)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2004, 04:02:55 PM
Eduard Roether Verlag also published what was described as a 'profusely illustrated photographic histor of Darmstadt'. I wonder how much of the Grand Ducal period was in there? He's published MANY books on the art , culture and architecture of Darmstadt as well.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on November 11, 2004, 02:12:16 AM
Once in a thread which I can't even remember anymore we had discussed Alice's mausoleum with the reclining sculpture of her with May in her arms. I FINALLY found it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/File0617a.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 11, 2004, 04:05:18 AM
So tragic and haunting... It gives me the chills.  :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on November 13, 2004, 05:49:56 AM
Dear Elisa,
Thank you for telling me more about Ernie's memoirs! :D If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your copy?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: nerdycool on November 23, 2004, 11:53:36 PM
Since I couldn't find out for sure, I'll list a few titles I found out there on the internet. I couldn't find a description of these books anywhere, so maybe it'll jog Eddy's memory..... :)

The Book of the Royal Wedding
by Alastair Burnet
pub. in 1986

Royal Wedding Album
by Trevor Hall
Pub. ??

Royal Wedding Album
by Outlet
pub. 1981

Royal Wedding (Special Publications)
by Ladybird Books
pub. 1982

Two centuries of royal weddings
by Christopher Warwick
pub. 1980 (it has some reviews on Amazon)

Royal Weddings
by Dulcie M. Ashdown
pub. 1981

There are many more on Amazon... though I imagine a good many of these are focused on Charles and Diana since the publishing dates on a lot of them are from 1980-1982. Personally, I think the best bet would be the Warwick book.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on November 24, 2004, 12:04:52 PM
I believe it was "Two Centuries of Royal Weddings"
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on December 06, 2004, 01:28:09 PM
In the majority of books that I have that discuss Queen Victoria's views on Ella's and Alix's Russian marriages, she indicates that Grand Duchess Alice was against her daughters marrying into Russia.  Despite this, which of course could be attirbuted to Queen Victoria's selfish possessiveness of Ella and especially Alix, do we know what view Alice actually had, or did she have one at all considering their ages (Ella maybe as she was closer to a marriageable age than Alix)?  I know that Alice once mentioned to a courtier in French "Behold this child with great respect, as she will be your future empress", speaking of Alix of course.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: pers on December 06, 2004, 01:39:24 PM
As I have it, it was Empress Maria Alexandrovna, herself a Hessian princess, who told her lady-in-waiting to kiss Alix's hand as a small girl, saying that Alix will be her lady-in-waiting's future empress.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: crazy_wing on December 06, 2004, 02:38:10 PM
I don't think Alice would have objected the marriages if her daughters were truly in love with the russian grand dukes (and they were).  Plus, wasn't she the one who pushed the marriage between her brother Alfred and Marie Alexandrovna?  

There are a good number of reasons why QV didn't like Alix and Ella marrying Russians and that is probably why she used Alice to try to stop them.  

The major reasons are:
1. The Crimean War
2. The political instability in Russia
3. both rejected husbands QV laid out for them...

Quote
As I have it, it was Empress Maria Alexandrovna, herself a Hessian princess, who told her lady-in-waiting to kiss Alix's hand as a small girl, saying that Alix will be her lady-in-waiting's future empress.

Yes, it was the empress maria alexandrovna who said that.  It is in Love, Power and Tragedy.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Agneschen on December 06, 2004, 04:25:42 PM
Queen Victoria's objection to the russian weddings may also have been motivated by more personal reasons.  She personally disliked Czar Aleksandr III about whom she once wrote to Victoria Milford Haven : "I have such a dislike to the fat Czar. I think him a violent Paul-like Asiatic, full of hate, passion and tyranny". Besides, the disastrous marriage of her aunt, Julianne of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld to GD Konstantin Pavlovich may also have added to her antagonism.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on December 06, 2004, 05:11:29 PM
She often remarked on the fact that GDs made bad husbands, a situation that probably goes back to the aunt mentioned in the previous post. She also expressed the concern that the harsh weather had 'ruined the health of every German princess sent there' and used the case of Marie Alexandrovna as an example. She didn't feel Ella would be up to it. She generally wasn't impressed with the Romanovs in general, though the few she did meet, she tended to like or at least come around to (Serge, Nicky 'so much like dear Georgie', GD Constantine and GDss Alexandra 'Sanny'). True love was about the only thing that swayed her--she was convinced that Ella wanted Serge and that Nicky and Alix were madly in love. She never would've sought one out for purposes of adding another prestigious match to her growing collection.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: VickyandAlice on December 06, 2004, 10:06:46 PM
I'm also looking for more information on Alice's (and her sister Vicky's) contribution to nursing in Germany.  I am working on a doctoral dissertation in history...is anyone familiar with the sources in Darmstadt?

Florence Nightingale kept up a good correspondence with Alice, Vicky, their sister Helena, and Louise of Baden.  Most of this (unless I'm mistaken) is unpublished, and held in the Nightingale Papers at the British Library. I spent Thanksgiving break transcribing part of it...very detailed and interesting letters!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on December 06, 2004, 11:39:13 PM
Welcome vickyandalice!  :D  There are a few quite knowledgable people on this board who have been to the Darmstadt archives as well as other archives (such as Broadlands) where the are items relevant to Princess Alice. There was a book published in 1888 on Princess Alice's Letters (one edition had a foreward by her sister Helena) which quote a number of her letters, if I'm not mistaken, on the topic of nursing and her attempts at reform there (a passion she shared with her sister Vicky). Since the 2 were devoted to this issue, I wonder if there are any letters preserved at one of the Hessian archives w/Vicky's papers? While the book may be old it does pop up fairly frequently on ebay and on such internet bookstores as bookfinder.com . Good luck and we look forward to your contributions.

This isn't in Germany but I think it was a hospital either founded by Alice or in her name at Eastbourne.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/151018alicehospital.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: VickyandAlice on December 07, 2004, 12:50:23 AM
Thanks!  I do have the Elibron reprint of the letters and have seen a few of the originals at the Royal Archives.  I'm also hoping to find some primary material in Germany on reactions to the sisters' efforts, how their English backgrounds played a role, etc.  

Great picture!! The story behind the founding of the Princess Alice Memorial Hospital is quite interesting.  The residents of Eastbourne had raised funds following Alice's death to form some sort of memorial to her and then apparently realized that they had enough for a hospital.  Quite fitting, I think.  




Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on December 07, 2004, 12:42:03 PM
I shouldn't imagine that Q.Victoria thought much of the Grand Dukes' fairly loose interpretation of monogamy, not to mention the scandal of Alexander II and his liaison with (and later marriage to) Princess Yourievsky!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on December 07, 2004, 01:19:04 PM
She wrote quite a bit to Vicky about it--and those were only the letters actually published! She had a rather gossipy interest in it but also felt quite sorry for Marie Alexandrovna and while she was sympathetic to AII for being torn by two loves she felt Katia was scheming, manipulative and basically a gold-digger.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on December 09, 2004, 10:32:21 PM
I had found this little bit when I was undertaking the helacious task of trying to organize my archives photos  :P Sometimes you come across stuff and it's like, 'wow, I didn't know/forgot I had that!'

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/4161883002U.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ilana on December 11, 2004, 02:55:49 PM
Actually, Alice liked the Russians very much.  She had excellent experiences with them during their sojourns at the Heiligenberg.

QV told VMH that her mother would not have approved of Sergei and later, Nicholas, but I don't think she was correct.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on December 11, 2004, 03:15:12 PM
Well we will never know will we?  I suspect that Alice would have wanted her daughters to have the men that they loved but I imagine that she would have had some reservations about Serge as his character was complex; on the other hand she may have appreciated his introspection and profound religious beliefs.  Who can say?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Agneschen on December 13, 2004, 07:07:18 PM
Though her disappointment in marriage is understandable, Princess Alice did use harsh, almost cruel words in voicing it to her husband. I wonder how he reacted on reading them. Shallow though he was said to be, he sincerely loved her and must have felt her bitterness deeply.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on December 16, 2004, 08:09:07 AM
I think that it is rather hard for us to understand that letter that Alice wrote to Louis.  Do we know of the events or correspondence that preceded it?
Alice had a brilliant and enquiring mind; she could also be quite abrasive at times. It may well be that something happened to necessitate the writing of such a letter - we don't really know.
I tend to feel that if she was hard on Louis, she was probably ten times harder on herself.  We know that Alice went through a time in her life when she questioned everything in her life; this letter may be an example of that disquieting period.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: cherrysmile222 on December 31, 2004, 03:49:50 AM
I believe that so called psychic abilities are part of human nature, so it wouldn't surprise me even if members from royalty had it.. But I don't take as seriously what some book claims. Writers can let fly their fantasy, so everything written doesn't remind the truth ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on December 31, 2004, 06:55:54 AM
Quote
I know! The Lost Princess is a bunch of donkey dust as my great grandmother use to say. (I use that expression because it is the only thing I could think of that was not offensive  ;D) I was just curious if anyone else have heard of it


I love 'bunch of donkey dust' - must remember that one!  I would love to know why Daisy Brooke thought that Alice was psychic.............
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Roman_Candle on January 01, 2005, 03:15:26 PM
cherrysmile222 wrote:


Quote
I believe that so called psychic abilities are part of human nature, so it wouldn't surprise me even if members from royalty had it.. But I don't take as seriously what some book claims. Writers can let fly their fantasy, so everything written doesn't remind the truth

I agree, but it's kind of like finding a lost Romanov unless you can test the evidence abilities/DNA it's subjective. There are alot of claimants and alot of Madam Cleo's too.


Quote
Governments, groups and individuals can lie...DNA does not.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Marlene on January 18, 2005, 09:23:45 PM
[There must  have been several photos of Alice in her wedding dress. I am not sure if others have been published here, but I have one that shows ALice alone, but facing the camera.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Karentje on January 20, 2005, 04:44:16 AM
Please do post it, I for one would love to see it and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one ;) :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on January 20, 2005, 11:38:49 AM
Marlene, are you reffering to the one I posted? It can be seen at the top of this page.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Marlene on January 20, 2005, 01:02:07 PM
Quote
Marlene, are you reffering to the one I posted? It can be seen at the top of this page.



No - a different pose
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on January 20, 2005, 01:06:19 PM
Oh wow that means there is at least a third pose. If you want to send it to me I will put it up now. I am not sure if you are able to but we would love to see it. I think most of us have just seen the two that were posted on this thread (ella posted one that is no londer up of a side, far away view of Alice).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Marlene on January 20, 2005, 06:43:39 PM
Quote
Oh wow that means there is at least a third pose. If you want to send it to me I will put it up now. I am not sure if you are able to but we would love to see it. I think most of us have just seen the two that were posted on this thread (ella posted one that is no londer up of a side, far away view of Alice).


I've only seen the one of her wedding gown posted her ... where she is looking downcast
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on January 20, 2005, 07:20:37 PM
Yes that is the one I posted that can still be seen. The other one was removed by ella due to photobucket limits. She had posted it but now it can no longer be seen. I have seen it though, it comes from one of the QV Vicky letters books, I think.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on January 20, 2005, 08:03:30 PM
Yes, that's where it's from. In my never-ceasing struggle to manage the photobucket plus people-please, I have added it back. I had to reconnect the link due to the sub-album requirement:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/hessebattenberg/img550.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on January 20, 2005, 08:12:38 PM
Thanks ella, I hope it was no trouble putting it back up. Now Marlene can see which ones we have.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Marlene on January 21, 2005, 09:37:11 AM
Quote
Thanks ella, I hope it was no trouble putting it back up. Now Marlene can see which ones we have.



Mine is different ... after I finish Royal Book News, I will send it to Ella (sometime next week.)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on January 22, 2005, 12:13:12 PM
Alice's dress looks quite modest comapred with the luxurious toilettes of Vicky and Alix; still as we know the circumstances dictated a simpler style of dress for the wedding......
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: cherrysmile222 on February 03, 2005, 09:04:36 AM
Quote
cherrysmile222 wrote:


I believe that so called psychic abilities are part of human nature, so it wouldn't surprise me even if members from royalty had it.. But I don't take as seriously what some book claims. Writers can let fly their fantasy, so everything written doesn't remind the truth

I agree, but it's kind of like finding a lost Romanov unless you can test the evidence abilities/DNA it's subjective. There are alot of claimants and alot of Madam Cleo's too.


Governments, groups and individuals can lie...DNA does not.


Why do you take here DNA again??? We don't speak about anything of "claimant's" thing, nor we spoke about anything that REQUIRES DNA evidence,because nobody wants to prove Alice's identity or so. Identity hasn't so much to do with psychic abilities in this case, so discussions about DNA aren't needed.  This is mixing the subject and unrelevant to discussion, so can we let it be?  ;)

After all, EMOTIONS itself are too subjective- and I didn't find on this forum DOUBTING someone's emotions, was it? And yet it is the same thing as "psychic" abilities,don't you see? Why don't we test emotions, huh? The world isn't whole rational or whole irational. It is on science to EXPLAIN functioning of psychic abilites/ and I mean- such as premonition that many people have,or so, not just telekinesis that you can't test always, but also those based on intuition, premonitions, "weird" feeling about something unlucky to happen etc.-because these are some that almost everyone of us experienced in his/her life/. Science could try to explain its functioning, with what it is related, in which situations it occurs, what are biology insights into such functioning ot so. Denying something is very easy, but research about it and explain it with new theories, however, is a work that only few people will do.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on February 08, 2005, 04:57:35 PM
Quote
Once in a thread which I can't even remember anymore we had discussed Alice's mausoleum with the reclining sculpture of her with May in her arms. I FINALLY found it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/grandduchessella/File0617a.jpg)


I found this picture of Alice's memorial at Frogmore; remarkably like the one grandduchessella posted:

(http://139.133.219.125/stores/Components/600/60020_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on February 08, 2005, 07:16:03 PM
Maybe they are the same? The one I posted could've been misidentified as being in the mausolelum rather than Frogmore since it's a sketch. They look too much alike to just be copies.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Marlene on February 08, 2005, 08:58:15 PM
Quote
Yes, I second that! A subscription is worth every penny! It is the best Royal magazine out there. I get so frustrated with Majesty, the best articles (ones about Victorian Royalty) always get put aside for silly things like what hats the Queen is wearing, or yet another Diana story. :P I wrote to Joe Little many times, complaining about there not being enough good articles! He said that he also gets complaints about there being too many articles on "old Royalty!" (Why on earth I can't imagine!) "

As someone who writes for Majesty, I should add something here. I write only historical type pieces (and have seen my stuff moved back at times), but the demographics for the magazine show an interest in the current royal family.  In fact, Diana gets a lot less coverage in Majesty than in Royalty.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on February 09, 2005, 10:28:50 AM
Thomas, if you don't mind my asking, are you a native of Darmstadt? If so, (or even if you're not, you may know) are there many things left now bearing testament to Princess Alice? I mean in the names of the charities she founded etc. etc.
The photographs are lovely. The family mausoleum MUST be very moving.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on February 09, 2005, 10:55:11 AM
Excellent question bluetoria!  Can anyone enlighten us on any of the memorials or organizations that still bear the Grand Duchess' name or attachment?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on February 09, 2005, 11:31:12 AM
Elisa- ;D

Thank you so much for providing this picture and this information.  Do you happen to know if the date of the dedication was significant in any way?  I know that 1902 would have been the 40th anniversary of her wedding to Ludwig, but other than that, I am clueless, unless Alice ascended to the Grand Ducal throne as Grand Duchess in September of 1878?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on February 09, 2005, 11:54:05 AM
Do you know, Elisa, if any of the charities she founded still bear her name? Or are there any hospitals etc. named after her?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on February 09, 2005, 01:09:32 PM
Quote
To begin with there is the beautiful memorial to Grand Duchess Alice on the Wilhelminenplatz, in Darmstadt, which was dedicated on the 12th September 1902. It is an obelisk designed by the great sculptor Ludwig Habich, and bears the inscription "Der unvergeßlichen Großherzogin von Hessen und bei Rhein - in Verehrung, Liebe und Dankbarkeit - gewidmet von Frauen und Jungfrauen Hessens - errichtet im Jahre 1902" [The unforgettable Grand Duchess of Hessen and by Rhine, in veneration, love and gratitude, dedicated by the Women and Young Women of Hessen, erected in the year 1902]


Irony of ironies, I had just bought this card and gotten it scanned, etc... ready to post when I saw it mentioned.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v650/empressfrederick/hessebattenberg/2326081.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: karin on February 10, 2005, 06:23:52 PM
Quote

I found this picture of Alice's memorial at Frogmore; remarkably like the one grandduchessella posted:

(http://139.133.219.125/stores/Components/600/60020_1.jpg)

I just noticed that these two pictures and the one of the sculpture on the base with the eagle mosaic show THREE different bases with the same sculpture.  Hmmmm . . .
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Paul on February 14, 2005, 12:16:37 PM
Hello All-

Today, a co-worker gave me an extra scanner that he wasn't using. It was most unexpected! I'm forever in his debt.

How appropriate that a copy of Jerrold M Packard's Victoria's Daughters was sitting on my desk. The photo below is one of my favourite pictures of the Grand Duchess Alice, in mid life.  The other photo is Grand Duke Louis IV, shortly before their marriage.

Scanning seems so easy. I fear that I may become addicted to yet another cyber toy <sigh>.


](http://www.geocities.com/stiffcollar1/s_GDs_Alice.jpg)     (http://www.geocities.com/stiffcollar1/s_LouisIV.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on February 15, 2005, 01:03:56 PM
Beautiful photos both, Paul.  Scanning is addictive, not to mention time consuming, but if you have the facility, it is good to do it so that we can all share what we have with each other, and with those who don't have access to images.
Louis is so terribly handsome in that photo; must have been easy to fall in love with a man so personable.  As for Alice, I don't think that I have ever seen a bad photo of her - the pose is perfect, so reflective and thoughtful, her dress most elegant and tasteful, her looks, if not beautiful, interesting and arresting.  What a handsome couple they must have made......
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on February 15, 2005, 05:57:50 PM
They did make a handsome couple. I'm still partial to Fritz though--so tall, so handsome, so dignified and he had all his hair and full beard until the end (not that this is a slight against anyone who doesn't have their hair--it's just Fritz's was so full and nice).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Martyn on February 16, 2005, 04:20:00 AM
I can see how this is going to go - you, Fritz and Vicky, me - Alice and Louis!  LOL!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on February 16, 2005, 09:27:15 AM
I am with you Martyn, as far as Louis is concerned. He was just so classically handsome. While I preffer Vicky to Alice anyday, I have always thought that was a very lovely portrait of her. She seems so life like and "real".
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 01, 2005, 09:06:54 AM
BTW, what is the difference between a "clairvoyant" and a "psychic"?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on March 01, 2005, 09:22:06 AM
Do clairvoyants, perhaps, 'see' clear images of the future & psychics 'hear' voices of the past??
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Kyra_K on March 02, 2005, 10:47:44 AM
 I collect Victorian Knitting patterns. Anyway, yesterday, while following link after link, I came across a Victoriana site that had this Harper's Bazar Article on Princess Alice titled "A Queen's Daughter".
Here's the link if anyone is interested.

http://www.victoriana.com/library/harpers/alice.html




Kyra
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Leslie_Romanov on March 08, 2005, 05:35:31 PM
If I remember correctley, clairvoyant is you see things, psychic you just know..... *shrugs shoulders* seems the same thing to me...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Helen_Azar on March 08, 2005, 06:20:25 PM
Quote
If I remember correctley, clairvoyant is you see things, psychic you just know..... *shrugs shoulders* seems the same thing to me...


Yes, it does sound like the same thing to me too. Perhaps it's just a synonym.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on March 09, 2005, 10:30:32 AM
There's a really interesting couple of lines in a letter from Alice to Florence Nightingale that I've just discovered. She describes reading the life of UNA (?? - don't know who/what that is?) then says:
"That it had been my lot to remain single, it [nursing] is the calling I should have most liked to have followed; but I still hope to learn much which can be of use to me -for my children & others - as soon as our little hospital is finished."
Didn't QV once write something similar - that if she had not been Queen she would have become a nurse? Perhaps it was 'in their blood'!
I think those lines just show how Alice's sense of philanthropy & duty was FAR MORE than 'noblesse oblige.'
The more I read of this remarkable person, the more I admire her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on March 10, 2005, 09:40:15 AM
Does the Princess Alice Memorial Hospital in Eastbourne still exist?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Candice on March 13, 2005, 12:09:46 PM
If Alice was psychic, why would Alice go on a 'sojourn in the wilderness' when she knew she was expecting any day.  Was Alex premature?  Would anyone know where Alex was born?  We know the date but where, is unclear.  

Candice


Quote
David Duff in "Hessian Tapestry" mentions this briefly.  In a section in which he deals with Alice's spiritual crisis that she seems to have suffered just before the birth of Alix, he has this to say, which is possibly related.
'It was during Princess Alice's sojourn in the wilderness that her sixth child, and fourth daughter, was born, on 6th June 1872.  It has been suggested that the mysticism of the future Empress of Russia was due to her being conceived at a time when her mother was in a state of tension over her religious convictions.'
In a footnote at the bottom of the page he states this
'Frances, Countess of Warwick, was of the opinion that Princess Alice was both clairvoyant and psychic.'
Sadly, he gives no further clarification does not say from whence this information came.

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on March 14, 2005, 05:11:31 PM
Quote
If Alice was psychic, why would Alice go on a 'sojourn in the wilderness' when she knew she was expecting any day.  Was Alex premature?  Would anyone know where Alex was born?  We know the date but where, is unclear.  

Candice




I thought Alix was born in Darmstadt??
As for Alice's being 'psychic' I think perhaps it was more of a mysticism & melancholy. I don't really believe she 'saw the future' as it were, but that, due to the sorrows of her own life she fellt deeply the sadness of all life. Her mysticism, which led her into her studies of religion, was IMO an expression of the depths of her personality & it was inherited by Ella & Alix.
I do believe, however, that as she was dying she saw her father coming to meet her...hence her whispered, "Dear Papa!" (I think this is quite a common phenomenon.)  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Sarai on March 15, 2005, 07:32:08 AM
Quote
I do believe, however, that as she was dying she saw her father coming to meet her...hence her whispered, "Dear Papa!" (I think this is quite a common phenomenon.)


Those were indeed her last words, and how touching if it really was so - that the one so dear to her should be the one "welcoming" his first child to die into that other world. I have frequently heard accounts of this phenomenon occuring as well - that when someone is dying, they see deceased relatives who come to "meet" them and lead them away to the afterlife. I think that is kind of a comforting thought, knowing you won't be lonely out there.

I have been skeptical about this before, but I have read many accounts of it when reading ghost stories. More compelling to me personally than other's accounts, however, is that when my own grandfather died last year, we think this happened to him as well, whereas his sister and nephew came to "meet" him in his last moments.

Alice always had such a resigned attitude about death - it was not scary to her and she seemed at peace with it. In letters to her mother, she frequently referred to life as just a journey and said that our "real home" was elsewhere. She tried to comfort her mother by saying that every day just led her mother closer to that wonderful day when she would be reunited with her dear husband. So death was almost something to look forward to. And she also said that those who departed were "not lost, but gone before" (this is the inscription on her son Frittie's grave). I'm sure her relatives took comfort thinking that she was ultimately at peace with her dear Papa, Grandmama, and children when she passed.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on March 15, 2005, 10:04:34 AM
Quote

I have frequently heard accounts of this phenomenon occuring as well - that when someone is dying, they see deceased relatives who come to "meet" them and lead them away to the afterlife. I think that is kind of a comforting thought, knowing you won't be lonely out there.

More compelling to me personally than other's accounts, however, is that when my own grandfather died last year, we think this happened to him as well, whereas his sister and nephew came to "meet" him in his last moments.

Alice always had such a resigned attitude about death - it was not scary to her and she seemed at peace with it. In letters to her mother, she frequently referred to life as just a journey and said that our "real home" was elsewhere. She tried to comfort her mother by saying that every day just led her mother closer to that wonderful day when she would be reunited with her dear husband. So death was almost something to look forward to.


Yes I agree, Sarai, it is an extremely reassuring thought & I do not doubt at all what happened to your grandfather. (I have seen so many similar cases in hospitals.)
Alice's resignation to death is similar almost to her father's & sometimes it seems to me more like 'ennui' or melancholy than resignation.  Perhaps to all the Victorians death was something far less taboo than today - they really did 'go to town' over funerals & mourning to such extremes! - possibly because they were so used to it in large families & with high infant mortality rates. Perhaps Alice was just exhausted & when people are so emotionally, mentally & physically drained I think we often think, "I just wish it call all be over" - the more so if you believe in heaven.  :)

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on April 05, 2005, 09:07:21 AM
Recently I have come across these two different views of Princess Alice. The first two are from 'Persons of Consequence Queen Victoria and her Circle' published in 1979.  The second two from 'The Grand Duchesses' published 2004.


'She had the beautiful nature of one who is always being asked to pick up the pieces. There was something sad about her that makes her a creature of pathos.  She died because she could not resist embracing a child who was ill with diphtheria.'

'She became Grand Duchess of Hesse-Darmstadt and helped her husband in the administration of a tiny Court in a small state with a quiet dignity and efficiency...'


'Alice, like her daughter after her, adored her children to so claustrophobic (and unroyal) a degree that she breastfed them - never common practice among princesses - and hovered over them like a mother hen. Indeed, she met her end because she could not refuse a kiss to her little son Ernst who was suffering from diphtheria, from which his sister May had died shortly before.'

'Alice.........also encountered a measure of unpopularity in her adopted land for a strong-willed sense of doing what was right, regardless of what the status quo in said country was or the claims of established custom.'


It appears that ideas have changed so much over the last twenty years therefore what was once seen as noble is now thought of as impractical and viewed in a negative light.  

Has anyone else any thoughts about these quotes?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on April 05, 2005, 09:19:51 AM
What an interesting thread, Rosamund  :)

I think that the second set of quotations is rather unjust - the part pertaining to her children. Her letters show that quite often she had to be apart from them so she she hardly smothered them & as for the notion of making their lives claustrophobic, I can think of few princesses who broadened their children's outlook at much as Alice did.
From their earliest years she encouraged them to visit the poor & the sick with her. Their education was extremely comprehensive for the day - more even than that of Vicky's children who were, after all raised primarily with a view to marriage. Alice prepared her children to live independent lives & to consider always the needs of their servants and the people whom they would presumably one day 'rule.'
That she breast-fed her own children may have been unusual for a princess (although Vicky & Marie of Edinburgh did the same) but Alice's studies of medicine had suggested  to her that this was the best of way of protecting them from dysentry (& for her it also had its benefits in delaying further pregnancies).

The part about nursing her sick children seems absolutely heartless. How could any mother not want to kiss their sick son when telling him of his sister's death? It hardly suggests she was smothering him with too much affection!
It seems that the author is mistaking love for adoration.

She may 'have encountered unpopularity' in Hesse after the defeat in the 7 weeks war, but she was acting according to Prince Albert's dream of a unified Germany & also doing what she thought best for the Grand Duchy when Louis & his uncle were being rather indecisive.
Also, the Hessians were initially taken aback by her willingness to carry out menial tasks in their hospitals & visit the poor in their own homes because it was not what they expected of princesses but it did not take long for them to realize how dedicated she was to their welfare.

That's what I think, anyway  :)

(Also, thinking only their benefit rather than her own adoration of them, did she not send Victoria & Ella to England as soon as the 7 weeks war broke out - even though they were very young & she missed them terribly. Often the children stayed with QV without their mother.)




Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: pinklady on April 06, 2005, 06:03:49 AM
I agree with Bluetoria.
Princess Alice was a forward thinking woman very much ahead of her time. Her interest in the poor, nursing, philosophy, and women's health in her adopted country were truly noble.
She was a caring, modern thinking mother who educated her daughters to a higher and broader level than her own daughter Alix educated her own daughters 2 decades later.
They are just my thoughts at the moment anyway.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on April 06, 2005, 09:17:32 AM
Here are a few quotations from Princess Alice's letters to QV showing how she felt when separated from her children:

June 18th 1866:

"These lines I send by our children, whom you so kindly will take charge of - alas, that the times should be such as to make this necessary! In your dear hands they will be so safe; and if we can give you a little pleasure in sending them, it would be real consolation in parting from from them which we both feel very much."

June 24 1866

"In your hands we feel the children so safe, though we miss them much. It is so kind of you to have taken them, and they are strong & healthy..."

August 13 1866

"About the children, the 23rd is quite soon enough for their departure..." [so she wasn't smothering them or demanding them back!]

August 29th 1866

"The children arrived well & safe, & in such good looks. It was a great pleasure to see them again & I tried to make Victoria tell me as much as possible of dear Grandma....This has been so good for them..."

October 7th 1866

"...We return to town today, leaving the children for another week, as the air on the hill is so delicious...."

October 1866

"...We are going to Waldleiningen for a fortnight & take Victoria with us....Ella's birthday will be kept when we return. She is too small to know the difference of the day...."

There are many many more about thanking QV for letting the children stay with her at Balmoral & about how she misses them when she is away.

Also her views on the education of her children:

16th November 1874:

"There is...nothing more injurious for children  than that they should be made a fuss about. I wantto make them unselfish, unspoiled and contented; as yet this is the case. That they takea greater place in my life than is often the case in our families comes from my not being able to have enough persons of a responsible sort to take charge of them always; certain things remain undone for that reason, if I do not do them, and THEY would be the losers. I certainly do not belong by nature to those women who are above all a WIFE, but circumstances have forcedme to be the mother in the real sense, as in a private family, and I hadto school myself to it, I assure you for many small self-denials have been necessary. Baby-worship of having the children about one indescriminately is not at all the right thing, and perpetual talk about one's children makes some women intolerable. I hope to steer clear of these faults - at least I try to do so..."

Doesn't Princess Alice speak for herself? She was hardly over-possessive IMO, just a really good & caring mother.  :)  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on April 10, 2005, 05:45:46 PM
Sorry I have taken so long to reply to your post Bluetoria.  Thank you for typing the quotes from the letters.  Where did you get them?  You are amazingly well read about Alice.

The last letter shows that she has thought in depth about her role as a mother and the final words, '...at least I try to do so..' reveal her awareness of the difficulty in sticking to ideals when bringing up children.  

Another mainly critical picture of Alice is in Alexandra The Last Tsarina by Carolly Erickson 2001.

'...in her effort to make changes and to air her advanced views she had brought disruption and controversy, and even as she lay on her deathbed there were whispers - respectful, quiet whispers - that her demise would restore a welcome peace to the community,'

'Alice was not like other mothers; she did not adorn herself or curl her hair or wear colourful gowns. Her gowns were always black and her only ornaments were a large gold cross on a chain and a mourning brooch with locks of her father's hair and Frittie's inside. Her pale face bore a perpetual expression of preoccupation and sorrow, a haunted look. She was often very tired.'

'She was always helping people, and she was always full of sorrow.  This much Alicky knew of her suffering mother.'

I think recent authors are presenting Alice's qualities in a negative light as a way of explaining the character of Alix.  Having such a brooding, joyless parent is going to produce a controversial character; or a smothering mother produces a daughter who repeats the pattern and keeps her children to herself.

My opinion is that they should be exploring how the lack of a mother affected the Empress as she grew up. She had no role model to measure herself by or to rebel against nor was there a mother giving advice to her when she became one herself.  A mother will always have an influence on her daughter throughout her life, even when they disagree and feel annoyed with each other's interference.

I think it would be interesting to define how the early death of Alice affected each of the Hesse girls and discover how they felt about being the only motherless grandchildren in the Queen's family. Unfortunately I do not have the knowledge you have about them Bluetoria.  




 
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on April 10, 2005, 06:18:36 PM
Thank you for making me feel good, Rosamund!  :)
(In truth, though, many many people here know FAR more than I do! I just admire the Hessians very greatly & like to read about them as I think Princess Alice was the perfect role model not only to her own children but to people today  :) )

Unfortunately, I think Carolly Erikson's book only gives half the picture.
I agree that Alice was a very profound person & this made her prone to bouts of melancholy/depression which increased after Frittie's death. It doesn't seem though, that she ever allowed this to infringe upon her dealings with her children. Even when she herself was in very low spirits or in a 'spiritual crisis' (as happened with her meeting with David Strauss) her letters suggest she continued her children's lessons & outings etc. as normal. (Perhaps in the same way that we go to work, do jobs, carry on in spite of our own inner turmoil sometimes.)

Ernie wrote of her wonderful sense of humour & her wonderful smile. Sadly photographs of her seldom show this. But there is one photograph (posted somewhere on this board I think) where the children are smiling & Alice herself seems to be on the point of laughing. It is the only picture of her that I think seems to show the other side to her character.

As with Alix & Ella, I think it is too easy to dismiss her as a one-sided character - she was far too profound for that, and there was much more to her than the 'brooding, joyless parent' that some authors may suggest.

Her death - & the manner of her death - must have been horrendous for her children. Their descriptions of life without her suggest that intitially at least all the joy had gone from the New Palace (which implies that SHE was the cause of the joy - not just some cloudy, gloomy figure constantly preoccupied with her own soul & mortality!) It would be interesting to consider more the long-term effects on her children.  

I find her 'depths,' her spiritual seeking, her profundity absolutely intriguing; but at the same time she was a very practical woman who didn't allow her own 'angst' to prevent her from carrying out any of her duties either to the Hessians or to her own children.
It would be interesting to pursue this further at an earlier hour of the day!  :)

(The quotations were from "Memoir & Letters From the Princess Alice" which was edited by Lenchen in 1884 - & is one of my FAVOURITE books!  :) )

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on April 17, 2005, 02:25:33 PM
Thank you for putting so much of interest into your reply Bluetoria.  I have been reading the sections about Alice in Jerrold Packard's book and although he is less critical and more praising of her achievements; he concentrated on her relationship with her mother, rather than her children.  

Ernie's writing shows that Alice had a lighter side to her character that is not being portrayed by some of the author's I have quoted.  

I really need to read a biography about her to get a balanced picture.  I think she is the most interesting of Victoria's daughters.  Thank you once more for all the quotations from the letters.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Sarai on April 18, 2005, 12:13:04 PM
I would just like to chime in and comment that this is indeed an interesting thread, and thank BT for quoting those words from Alice. I also think she was a tender and conscientious mother, and if this is taken as "smothering" then so be it, although I don't think this was the case. I like that she was always concerned with making sure her children were unspoiled and lived simply, and she worried about getting to know all of their different personalities and being a good mother to them all.

I also believe it would be interesting to study how the death of their mother affected the girls, as being orphaned so young always scars children to some degree. Princess Alice once wrote, "[...] and children grow up so quickly and leave one, and I would long that mine should take nothing but the recollection of love and happiness from their home with them into the world's fight, knowing that they have there always a safe harbour, and open arms to comfort and encourage them when they are in trouble. I do hope that this may become the case, though the lesson for parents is so difficult, being continually giving, without always finding the return." It is quite sad that Alice did not live long enough to be able to offer this "safe harbour" to her children once they were grown, as I think it would have done all of them much good. With her death they lost a shining example and a well of good advice. I am sure they had moments when they sorely missed having that confidante to go to in times of trouble.

I also wonder how her daughters carried on their mother's wishes and how closely they followed her example. I have not read their diaries and letters, except of course for Alix's, and in what I have read she doesn't seem to mention her mother very much, save for noting the anniversaries of her death. I wonder what her children thought of her charity work and of going to the masses and helping the common folk in a hands-on manner. I suppose Ella carried on her mother's example the best in this respect. I also wonder what they thought of her doubt in the existence of God and the period of spiritual restlessness that she went through, seeing as how at least Alix and Ella were very religious.  

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on April 18, 2005, 12:51:22 PM
They're interesting ideas, Sarai & thank you for posting the sad quotation from Princess Alice.

I think both Ella & Victoria (being the eldest) followed their mother's example very closely. Victoria adopted many of her mother's charities until Ernie's marriage & in later life often worked in soup kitchens etc. Ella's care for the poor speaks for itself  :)

It's an interesting point about how they viewed their mother's spiritual crises! To some extent, I suppose, both Ella & Alix shared the experience when it came to the question of their conversion to Orthodoxy.
I cannot imagine that a person as deeply spiritual as Ella didn't pass through many spiritual crises & times of doubt. It would, perhaps, be rather extraordinary if she had not done; so maybe both she & Alix fully empathised with Princess Alice's spiritual 'searching.'  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on April 25, 2005, 09:51:53 AM
Do any photographs/pictures exist of the interiors of the palace/schloss in Darmstadt? I have a sketch of the outside but would like to see what it looked like inside & would be grateful if anyone could either post any or point me in the right direction, please.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: PrinceEddy1864 on April 25, 2005, 04:45:10 PM
oh I am so jealous. Do you have any idea when these photos of the rooms were taken. I mean could you attempt to date them.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: princessalice on April 29, 2005, 09:12:36 PM
The Grand Duchess Alice is my very favorite in royal history, i find so much about her to admire and her whole personality appeals to me as i tend to struggle with depression and hold onto things too long, as i think maybe she did.  and, of course, her early death affected esp. her daughters in such a terrible way!  i lost my own Mama 11 years ago, she was 59 and i was 37, and it devastated me, i still am working on learning to live with her in memory instead of a present part of my life.  i can only imagine how hard it was for Alice's little girls to live without her in their lives.   i think she adored her children, all of them, and was crushed at the loss of the babies Frittie and May.  bless her!  i know she found many stars in her crown!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on April 30, 2005, 03:29:11 AM
I'm sorry for the lossof your mother, princessalice.

I absolutely agree with you about Princess Alice's many, many admirable qualities. I, too,  find her very inspirational particularly because she continued to work so tirelessly for her family & for Hesse, even in the midst of her depressions & bereavements. She was also often quite unwell physically, & I would say that she virtually drove herself to her early death through sheer exhaustion (rather like her father).

It is sad, I think, that her sense of humour is often forgotten, too. Her death must have been completely devastating for her children & but her legacy lived on in them - especially in Ella who, I think, must have gained so much inspiration from her mother when she, too, devoted herself to caring for others, in spite of her own sorrows and difficulties.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: elisa_1872 on April 30, 2005, 02:18:02 PM
Quote
It is sad, I think, that her sense of humour is often forgotten, too.



Ernst Ludwig mentions in his memoirs, several examples of Princess Alice's wonderful sense of humour. Here is one of his memories of an incident:  :D

"Early on she was serious, but had also a great sense of humour, and i hear still her laugh, when she was amused. If something humourous took place, she enjoyed it with her whole heart. So it was for example, when she and i stopped before the house of our optician Weber. She led her small, deep carriage herself. She only wanted to ask a short question, to do with me. So Dr. Weber came outside to the carriage. During the conversation he absent-mindedly took her handkerchief from her lap, and began to brush the wheel of the carriage that was before him, with it.
When the conversation came to an end, she said only
"Ach please Dr. Weber, give me my handkerchief", and led off. How we laughed together, when thinking of the expression on the face of Dr. Weber.."

;D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on April 30, 2005, 02:58:44 PM
I have found something about Princess Alice in the book Victorian Sidelights.

Edward Corbould was appointed Instructor of Historical Painting to the Royal Family in 1851. Once, he and his family, including his small son Arthur were staying at Windsor Castle.

'Princess Alice with little Arthur beside her was walking along the principal street in the town when the little boy stopped transfixed before the window of a stationer's shop where a new number of Punch was exhibited.  After a few minutes' pause, he looked up doubtfully at the Princess and said, ''I wish you would lend me threepence to buy it with. I'll pay you back when I get to school and get my pocket money!''  She handed him the threepence and he went in and made his purchase, again assuring her earnestly that she would be repaid, while they looked at the paper together.  A few weeks later she received a letter as follows:

My dear Princess Alice,
     Here's the three pence.
           Yours affectionately,
                  Arthur.

It was a shock to his father when he learned for the first time of this episode from the Princess herself, who said how she had laughed on receiving the letter addressed:

Princess Alice,
     Windsor Castle.'










Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on May 01, 2005, 10:07:15 AM
'One day when he (Edward Corbould) went to give his lesson, he was met by Princess Alice weeping in the corridor.  'There will be no lesson today,'' she said, ''Papa is too ill.''  She added that the Prince's greatest enjoyment had been to listen while she read aloud to him, and for the first time this had just been forbidden.  Soon afterwards the Prince's illness terminated fatally.'

Emphasis is usually placed on the Prince Consort's relationship with Vicky and how much he missed her but the picture of the hard-worked Prince relaxing at the end of the day to his daughter's voice, reading from newspapers or a serious book, suggests a similar closeness between him and Alice.

His early death may have encouraged her to emulate him and work for what she believed in, disregarding her own health as he had his.

Sorry! I have moved from thinking about how the loss of Alice affected her daughters to how her father dying when she was only eighteen affected her.    

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 01, 2005, 11:01:24 AM
Oh, gosh, yes...I think Princess Alice was devastated by his loss & it was all the harder because she had to be strong for her mother's sake.

Shortly before the 2nd anniversary of his death she wrote, after hearing a piece of music he loved:

"The room, the band, dear Papa all came before me & made my heart sink at the thought that that bright recollection belonged to the past....
...I must close, my tears fall fast & I ought not to make you sadder, when you are sad already. Pray for me when you kneel by HIS grave...think of me when you kneel there where, on that day my hand rested on your and dear Papa's two years ago."

On each subsequent anniversary, whenever she heard certain music & on numerous other occasions she makes reference to him.

I think it is very beautiful that on her deathbed she seemed to see him coming to her & her last words were, "Dear Papa!"  :'(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on May 01, 2005, 03:56:06 PM
I found Alice's writing very moving.  It reinforces my picture of a father and daughter who were close and had shared interests. Thank you for the reply Bluetoria.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: elisa_1872 on May 02, 2005, 03:40:38 AM
Yes, i see the beautiful relationship between Alice and her father as one of the most touching examples of a father/daughter relationship. This is best shown in the beautiful book of Alice's letters to her mother, in which the Prince Consort is mentioned in nearly sometimes every letter of the correspondence. Touchingly, the monument of Alice and her beloved little daughter May, is placed so close to the effigy of the Prince Consort's in the Frogmore Mausoleum. In the Royal Archives is preserved a little New Year card written by Alice to her father in 1850. "May my dear Papa be happy through the year".
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 02, 2005, 04:54:39 AM
Elisa, I think that the book of Princess Alice's letters is one of the most beautiful & touching books I have ever read. (If the house were on fire, that is what I would rescue!)

Would you agree that out of all Queen Victoria's children, Alice was most like her father?
While Vicky was probably more intellectually gifted, it seems to me that Alice had a depth of character which went beyond that of any of her siblings (including Vicky). Her appreciation of the aesthetic seems more heartfelt & more moving even than Vicky's, which I would think came more from the intellectual appreciation, than from the heart. The same, I think, applies top music. Princess Alice's descriptions of listening to music are very emotional. Vicky's are slightly more technical.
There is so much of Alice in both Ella & Alix, I think.  :) (I often wonder why some people view Ella's as cold, when she obviously felt everything so deeply, as did her mother.)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Lisa on May 02, 2005, 05:38:57 AM
Quote
There is so much of Alice in both Ella & Alix, I think.  :) (I often wonder why some people view Ella's as cold, when she obviously felt everything so deeply, as did her mother.)

Isn't it a way of protecting  themselves (to be cold) for people who are very emotional and sentimental, is it?... (I know that very well: I'm like that! ;))
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 02, 2005, 07:21:53 AM
Lisa, I empathise  ;)

Some more of Princess Alice's writing about her father. The last one in particular, I think, shows how very deeply she felt his death - bearing in mind what Rosamund wrote about how young she was at the time:

"The longing I sometimes have for dear Papa surpasses all bounds. In thought he is ever present & near me; still we are but mortals and as such, at times, long for him also."

"Dear Papa suffered when he saw others do wrong; it pained that pure good spirit."

"The tender love & the deep sorrow cause by his loss remain ever with me, and will accompany me throughout life. At the age I was then [at the time of his death] with its sensitive feelings it made an impression which I think nothing can efface."    
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Val289 on May 02, 2005, 02:53:59 PM
Quote
Isn't it a way of protecting  themselves (to be cold) for people who are very emotional and sentimental, is it?... (I know that very well: I'm like that! ;))



Lisa - I think you have made a very valid point.  Certainly, I think a lot of us here, may be a bit like that - I know I am :)

-Val ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Sarai on May 02, 2005, 06:37:37 PM
I enjoyed reading the little anecdotes about when Alice showed her sense of humour. I would love to read more, even though I don't think many would exist, as she was generally quite a serious person. But I suppose that makes those few anecdotes all the more precious.

With regards to BT's question about why some people think Ella to be a cold person, I think a lot of people have been influenced by the writings of her adopted niece Marie Pavlovna Jr. I have not studied enough of Ella to make an accurate judgement of her (especially her post-Sergei years), and I confess that my opinions of her have also been a bit coloured by reading her niece's memoir, but I generally think that before her widowhood she could sometimes be a bit cold and she indulged in worldly pleasures such as beauty and fashion, but once she dedicated herself to serving others she was genuine about it. And as far as her being "cold," this could be to many reasons so I can't blame her (i.e. the loss of her mother, her childlessness, her supposed unhappy marriage, etc.).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 03, 2005, 04:01:52 AM
I agree, Sarai, that much of this view of Ella is due to Maria Pavlovna's memoirs. It seems a very unfair portrayal to me, because there are no other accounts of other children finding her 'cold.' As children, Anna Vyrubova & Felix Youssoupov both adored her as did her Battenberg nieces & nephews & her young cousins the Edinburghs whom she 'spoiled' with kindness & affection.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Sarai on May 07, 2005, 02:46:08 PM
Quote
I agree, Sarai, that much of this view of Ella is due to Maria Pavlovna's memoirs. It seems a very unfair portrayal to me, because there are no other accounts of other children finding her 'cold.' As children, Anna Vyrubova & Felix Youssoupov both adored her as did her Battenberg nieces & nephews & her young cousins the Edinburghs whom she 'spoiled' with kindness & affection.  :)


It's good to read that she was kind to other children and improves my perception of her. Yes, I remember that Felix really loved her and she was also affectionate toward's Marie's brother Dmitry.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on May 08, 2005, 06:03:29 AM
I am enjoying reading all the contributions in this thread so much.  Yesterday my copy of 'Hessian Tapestry' arrived and I am looking forward to reading a book in which Princess Alice is the central character instead of being a note in someone else's biography.

I love the picture of her as a young girl standing quietly and seriously and appearing deeply in thought.  It seems to be taken at Osborne; I am hoping to visit the house again this summer.    
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 08, 2005, 07:43:44 AM
Quote
.  It seems to be taken at Osborne; I am hoping to visit the house again this summer.    


Me too!  :D :D :D

Quote
I am looking forward to reading a book in which Princess Alice is the central character instead of being a note in someone else's biography.
  


Have you read Gerard Noel's 'Princess Alice'? I quite like it but I don't feel it completely captures her true spirit....but then, who could?  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on May 08, 2005, 11:24:15 AM
When was the book published Bluetoria?  If it is not too old I might be able to order it from the library.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 08, 2005, 11:34:17 AM
It was published by Constable in 1974, but re-published by Michael Russell in 1992. I think I bought mine from Amazon but the library should be able to get it.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on May 08, 2005, 02:18:42 PM
The re-published version sounds recent enough to be held by some library in this country.  Thanks very much Bluetoria.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 10, 2005, 05:47:13 AM
Princess Alice's involvement with David Strauss is very intriguing. He obviously thought very highly of her & wrote that he found her quite different to what he expected in a princess. He was amazed by the way that she put him at ease.

It was quite courageous of her to become involved with him, since he was something of an outcast in religious circles because of his cynical views about the authenticity of the Bible.

In some ways it seems she found in Strauss the soul-mate that Louis could never be. According to Maurice Paleologue (whose expressions do - imo - sound a little fanciful at times!) the Princess fell completely under his spell & he shook her faith to the core, plunging her into a terrible spiritual crisis.

It was this, no doubt, which led the more superficial (imo) Queen Augusta of Prussia to remark that Alice's death was a good thing since otherwise her children would have been atheists!!! (As if!!!!!)

But I wonder whether his influence was really so great.
After Frittie's death, Princess Alice's faith seemed to deepen and she spent less & less time with Strauss.

Lenchen wrote a very moving description of this after Alice's death:

"The traces of perfect trust in God & entire submission to His will, will be found throughout her letters. We know that at one time she wavered in her convictions. Although she never doubted the value of practical religion, although she ever turned to the Bible for help & comfort, she had to wrestle heart and soul with theoretical doubts. It seems to have been a struggle of many years' duration...[A friend wrote of her]
'After her son's death I thought I observed a change in her feelings....Before she had openly expressed her doubts about God...after the prince died she never spoke in such a way again. She remained silent while a transformation was quietly going on within, of which I afterwards was made aware, under the influence of some hidden power. It seemed as if she did not like then, to own the change that had come over her...She said, 'I feel the necessity of prayer; I love to sing hymns with the children...'"

"....Future generations must ever acknowledge how the Princess Alice throughout her life strove to fulfil the saying of her favourite hero in history [Frederick the Great] "The rulers of nations must set the example of virtue to the world.'".....(Hmmm....back to the Windsors thread!  ;))
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 21, 2005, 07:05:07 AM
This is Tennyson's poem, written for the wedding of Prince Arthur, recalling the recent death of Princess Alice:

Dead Princess, living Power, if that which lived
True life live on–and if the fatal kiss,
Born of true life and love, divorce thee not
From earthly love and life–if what we call
The spirit flash not all at once from out
This shadow into Substance–then perhaps
The mellow’d murmur of the people’s praise
From thine own State, and all our breadth of realm,
Where Love and Longing dress thy deeds in light,
Ascends to thee; and this March morn that sees
Thy Soldier-brother’s bridal orange-bloom
Break thro’ the yews and cypress of thy grave,
And thine Imperial mother smile again,
May send one ray to thee! and who can tell–
Thou–England’s England-loving daughter–thou
Dying so English thou wouldst have her flag
Borne on thy coffin–where is he can swear
But that some broken gleam from our poor earth
May touch thee, while, remembering thee, I lay
At thy pale feet this ballad of the deeds
Of England, and her banner in the East?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: lexi4 on May 21, 2005, 10:46:39 AM
Thanks all. I am enjoying this thread very much.  I know very little about Alice so this is really interesting. I was wondering if anyone has a picture of her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: CatherineNY on May 22, 2005, 01:25:31 PM
This is a wonderful thread. So many of the posters have offered fascinating thoughts and pieces of information. I love reading about Princess Alice, whom I find to be the most fascinating of QV's children, and whose early death has always struck me as a great tragedy whose repercussions were felt far beyond her own family. As I read the messages above, I started to wonder how Alice would have reacted to the idea of her daughters converting to Orthodoxy. I have great respect for Orthodoxy, but, as a faith, it seems somewhat at odds with Alice's own approach to Christianity (even if we put aside her Strauss-inspired crisis of faith). What do others think? Might she have discouraged her daughters from marrying into the Romanov family for religious, if not for other reasons?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 23, 2005, 06:19:57 AM
Hello Catherine  :) It seems to me that Princess Alice would have understood her daughters' decision to convert & she would not have stood in their way. I think she was far more 'liberal' in these things even than Queen Victoria who wrote, "where another person's conscience is concerned, one must be tolerant."

I think that Alice was more open-minded than Vicky & yet, when Vicky's daughter. Sophie, converted to Orthodoxy, Vicky wrote that - while she felt 'a pang of grief' - "I cannot blame her or think her wrong & can only hope that she will feel happy sharing her husband's faith & that in which her child is to be brought up."
Imo, Alice would have had the same attitude.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: CatherineNY on May 24, 2005, 07:21:42 PM
You make excellent points, Bluetoria. On the other hand, my sense is that Vicky was far more interested in power politics than was Alice, and that the desire to see one of her daughters on a throne may have played a role in her support of Sophie's marriage into an Orthodox family.  I don't think Alice would have been quite as interested in seeing her daughters marry into a powerful family. While both Vicky and Alice were liberal (in the 19th century sense) intellectuals, and both were interested in improving social conditions, I think Alice was more introspective, perhaps more spiritual, and far less political. Their very different marriages and positions in the German royal hierarchy probably played a role in their development, as did the fact that Prince Albert deliberately schooled Vicky to be the wife of the German Crown Prince, while arranging for Alice to marry a relatively minor ruler. I still think Alice might have guided her daughters away from their marriages into Russia, since Russia was the antithesis of her liberal ideals, including her unconventional religious views. And I think she might have seen that Serge had issues (as we say these days), and persuaded Ella to look elsewhere. She had much more penetration than poor Ludwig, who does not seem to have been the sharpest knife in the drawer. And if Ella did not marry Serge, Alix's marriage to Nicky would have been much less likely.
This is all guesswork at this stage...but I have read a lot about this family, which interests me greatly, and this is my reading of what Alice might have done to change the course of history as we know it.
Sorry for the long post! You can tell this is a great interest of mine.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 25, 2005, 07:16:50 AM
Hi Catherine!  :)

I agree that Princess Alice might well have opposed Russian matches for her daughters, but I don't think it would have been on religious grounds, nor do I think she'd have objected to their conversion. She may have been more likely to share QV's concern about their health & the dangers of living in Russia.
She was very fond of Serge when he was a little boy.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ilana on May 25, 2005, 12:13:20 PM
True, but P Alice has always struck me as a pragmatist, and very protective of her daughters.  She and the Queen were much more in sync as time went on, and she might have been swayed by QV's attitudes, though she, herself, didn't have those same attitudes towards Russians.

Also, had Alice lived Alix and Ernie might have been quite different children and adults.... Ernie wouldn't have had abandonment issues and Alix might not have gone to Russia, might not have become so immersed in the far edge of spiritual matters as it were.

This is all just rambling!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 25, 2005, 01:09:46 PM
But it's interesting rambling!!  ;)

Didn't QV worry about Alice becoming 'russified' from too many meetings with Alexander II & Marie Feodorovna?
It's an interesting thought about how different Alix might have been had her mother lived.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: CatherineNY on May 25, 2005, 09:13:13 PM
This thread has cost me money -- it inspired me to go on ABE Books and buy a copy of Hession Tapestry, which I have unaccountably neglected to read earlier! But seriously, this ihas been a most enjoyable topic, despite the sadness underlying it (so many early deaths).
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ilana on May 26, 2005, 12:25:01 PM
QV not only expressed that thought to P Alice, but also later to VMH who assured her that they didn't think much of their Russian cousins, they were too lazy and didn't have much to say.  

She thought this, but evidently, Ella didn't!!!!!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Svetabel on May 29, 2005, 10:59:56 AM
Had this portrait ever been posted?
I like the picture, Alice looks so sweet in it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/alice_.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on May 29, 2005, 12:26:10 PM
Great Sveta!

Do you have any more information on it--where it hangs, artist, etc?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 29, 2005, 01:15:31 PM
Quote
Great Sveta!

Do you have any more information on it--where it hangs, artist, etc?


Yes and could you say how old she waswhen it was painted, please?

It's very beautiful - her hair is far darker than I had thought from photographs. Thank you for posting it, Svetabel!  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Svetabel on May 29, 2005, 02:14:20 PM
The portrait was painted in 1880 (!!!!!) by Gustav Muller.It hangs in Erenburg (not sure about spelling), a castle in Bavaria.
Alice looks really beautiful and charming in the picture...
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 29, 2005, 07:35:40 PM
1880! I wonder if he painted it from memory or from a photograph or from an earlier work he had done. Thanks for the info!  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on May 30, 2005, 06:36:42 AM
This from Baroness Buxhoeveden shows just how terrible Princess Alice's loss was for her children. It's very sad...

“The first months after her mother’s death were untold misery and loneliness for Princess Alix...[she] long afterwards remembered those deadly sad months when, small and lonely, she sat… in the nursery, trying to play with new and unfamiliar toys (all her old ones were burned or being disinfected)…The two elder Princesses tried to take their mother’s place as their father’s companions, and were constantly with him. The sixteen-year-old Princess Victoria looked after her brother and sisters, and acted as mistress of the house."  :'(

(Ilana....what's with the fish?  ;D)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on June 03, 2005, 07:38:06 AM
Quote
One thing that all of the books have common is that if the person written about meet VHM they did nothing but sing her praise and comment on her common sense, intelligence & maturity at a young age.


This is from the thread on Victoria of Milford Haven.  

Did the death of Alice bring out these qualities in her daughter or was she exhibiting them before then?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on June 16, 2005, 12:58:16 AM
What thoughts you all inspire.  I've been thinking about the effect that an early loss of a parent has.  For QV, no father; for Vicky & Alice, etc., no father; for Ella & Alix, no mother; for PA, no mother.  

This is a concept I've been tossing around...what all of you have to say seems to reflect the intensity of early loss on each generation and the rather haunting aspect of its continuance.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on June 16, 2005, 10:24:39 AM
I imagine that for the Hessians & Prince Albert the loss was far worse than it was for QV who did not really know her father at all. Perhaps it left many of them with an a sort of melancholy which I think is visible in Ella, Alix & Prince Albert. Also, in Prince Albert's case his mother's departure left him with a horror of infidelity which was unusual among princes of the time and left him with the reputation of something of a prude (an unfair reputation imo!). Perhaps equally all of them were more determined to make the lives of their own children as happy as possible - Prince Albert certainly did & Alix, too.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on June 16, 2005, 02:01:43 PM
Thanks, blutoria, for your thoughts.  I think we can see the effect on QV in her relationships with Stockmar, King Leopold, and Melbourne.  Also, PA's consistent efforts to bind QV to him are also significant in this light.  I really need to examine the other Hessians' lives for similar signs.  
Perhaps any who have noticed such signs might want to share.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Finelly on June 16, 2005, 09:27:21 PM
People are complex, you know?  Nobody is one-sided and the judgemental generalizations made by contemporaries and biographers who aren't delving deeply into a person's life are singularly UNhelpful.  (this is my objection to biographies about multiple people - seems to me that a book devoted to ONE person will go deeper and more coherently into a person's character than one that covers an era or a group of folks).
Alice was no exception.  If you explore the anecdotes of others, her letters to family and friends, and theirs to her, you find that she was SUCH a multifaceted person.  Deep and intellectual, spiritual, loving and nurturing, selfless and caring of others (sometimes to the point of neglecting her family) and..INTERESTING!  She had a HUGE impact on her descendants, negative and positive.  ONe can only imagine what would have happened with Alexandra had Alice lived longer.....
And I just HAD to laugh at the "stifling" issue.  If breastfeeding one's children and kissing them when they're sick is an example of "smothering", then I'm guilty, guilty, guilty!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on June 17, 2005, 10:58:18 AM
Hi Finelly!  :)  I agree with you entirely about Alice's complex personality. It seems to me she was one of the most profound of all the Victorian royalties. Vicky may have been intellectually more gifted, but the depths of Alice's personality are, to me, far more fascinating and interesting. (Much as I like Vicky!!  :)).
Her ability to combine her deeply contemplative nature with her philanthropic works is truly inspiring and it is such a tragedy (though perhaps not a surprise) that she so exhausted herself caring for others that she literally wore herself out & died so young.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on July 03, 2005, 03:56:40 PM
It is hard to believe that Alice was only nineteen when she wrote this letter.  She has an empathy with a distressed human being that is far beyond her years, in my opinion.

'The fineness of Princess Alice's heart was revealed in the first letter she wrote her mother, after she arrived in Darmstadt, her new home.  ''You tell me to speak to you of my happiness, our happiness.  You will understand the feeling which made me silent towards you, my own dear bereaved Mother, on that point.  But you are unselfish and loving and can enter into my happiness, though I could never have been the first to tell you how intense it is, when it must draw the painful contrast between your past and present existence.... How he loves you, you know, and he will be a good son to you.... Take courage, dear Mama, and feel strong in the thought that you require all your moral and physical strength to continue the journey which brings you nearer to Home and to Him.  I know how weary you feel, how you long to rest your head on his dear shoulder, to have him to soothe your aching heart. . . . Bear patiently and courageously your heavy burden, and it will lighten imperceptibly as you near him, and God's love and mercy will support you. . . .''

The quote is from 'The Reign of Queen Victoria' by Hector Bolitho.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: BobAtchison on July 03, 2005, 06:54:45 PM
I have been reading a bio of Kaiser Wilhelm that just rips his mother poor Victoria apart.  It seems Vicki and Alice were similar, the dominant half of their marriages.  Do we attribute this to Albert rather than the Queen's influence???
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 03, 2005, 07:42:58 PM
It's interesting to note the similarities in the husbands...Louis, Fritz, and later, Nicholas.  Each of the wives spur their husbands on. urging them to make themselves heard, respected, and, when appropriate, obeyed.  Much, IMO, can be seen in Alice's letter to Louis 10/3/76 in which she clearly sees the differences between her needs as a person and Louis' needs as a husband.  Her statement that she will attempt to be the wife Louis needs seems revealing.  Perhaps that particular point of view was one that also what Alix felt, although she never stated such.  Probably, V & F found a stronger meeting of minds and needs.  The role of nourishing wife, however, certainly seems to run through each of these women.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 03, 2005, 08:02:26 PM
That's a really interesting point.

Fritz was probably the strongest of the 3 but he was prone to depression and indecisiveness. Vicky was there to 'buck him up' as needed. Louis wasn't so much 'weak' as non-intellectual and would probably have just plodded on dutifully but with Alice Darmstadt became much more.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 03, 2005, 08:25:16 PM
When I read Alice's letters to Louis, I am reminded of Alixs letters to N...so much about being strong, making oneself felt.  V certainly said the same kinds of things to F, but hers were, obviously, ones of reinforcement!    It's so interesting to see shades of parents on their kids....Albert supporting V. and at the same time asserting himself!  tHE SPOUSAL RELATIONSHIPS ARE ABSOLUTELY INTRIGUING!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 04, 2005, 04:58:44 AM
Quote
 It seems Vicki and Alice were similar, the dominant half of their marriages.  Do we attribute this to Albert rather than the Queen's influence???


I think that Prince Albert inspired in them such a sense of responsibility that came with their position that both of them were driven to work for the good of their people. Perhaps their husbands, while also wishing the good of the people, had not been raised in quite such a spirit of altruism. I think that this was the driving force behind both Vicky & Alice but, whereas Alice managed to achieve so much in a short time, Vicky's efforts were often thwarted. Many of Vicky's wonderful philanthropic schemes (her establishment of hospitals, her plans for the unemployed & rehabilitation of prisoners etc.) are often overlooked.

Louis & Fritz, without a doubt, also wanted to work to improve the conditions of their people, but I do not believe they had quite the same force behind it, as had been instilled into Vicky & Alice by their father.

Rosamund, that is a beautiful quotation about the 'fineness' of Alice's heart. Thank you for posting it.  :)The Queen's near collapse during Albert's illness, and the more so after his death, must have thrust Alice very quickly from girlhood into adulthood and she rose to her responsibilities with such selflessness. It is such a great pity that several years later, QV seemed almost to have forgotten this in her disputes with poor Alice, who always seemed to take the blame for everything!!  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: BobAtchison on July 04, 2005, 10:25:04 AM
Does anyone think Louis was 'driven away' a bit by Alice?  He must have felt so dependent on Alice and her mother's money and influence.  Didn't Victoria pay for the New Palace?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 04, 2005, 11:17:12 AM
Louis doesn't seem, in the letters I've read, to be aware enough to have been driven away.  He doesn't seem dismissive, exactly...he merely seems to note that she's upset and wants to be sure that she doesn't feel that he intentionally harmed her.  His pursuits, as far as his family was concerned, appear to be centered around "not rocking the boat."
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Prince_Christopher on July 04, 2005, 11:45:51 AM
Yes, I've read that Queen Victoria paid for the New Palace.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: rita on July 04, 2005, 02:04:28 PM
Of course she had paid for the palace because Hessen- Darmstadt was a little poor country
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 05, 2005, 07:09:53 AM
I understood that a large per centage of Alice's £30,000 dowry was spent on it. This led to a deal of contention with Lenchen who not only received the same dowry, but also a 'free' home and an extra £6,000 annuity.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Finelly on July 05, 2005, 08:56:44 AM
Yep, Alice paid for it with her own dowry, which led to a lot of financial discomfort.  They had to go to cheap seaside places on vacation and needed help from Victoria just to get to England to visit her.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 05, 2005, 10:23:41 AM
In regard to Alice's spiritual quest:  

Alice seems to have certainly inherited her father's sense of introspection.  Additionally, she was most familiar with her mother's preference for the "simplicity" of Lutheranism, especially as opposed to the formality of Anglicanism.  Those two propensities alone would give rise to her need to question.

The Strauss influence appears IMO to be a path of assurance for her rather than one of confusion.  Quite simply put, her doubts were attached to organized religion, with its intrinsic "statutes" of every version, and not to faith itself.  That romantic (in the literary sense)  journey seems to have provided her with a well-grounded and, importantly, self-determined sense of faith.  Gerard Noel cites her words from Kenyon's book:
"THE WHOLE EDIFICE OF PHILOSOPHICAL CONCLUSIONS WHICH I HAD BUILT FOR MYSELF, I FIND TO HAVE NO FOUNDATION WHATSOEVER; NOTHING OF IT IS LEFT, IT HAS CRUMBLED AWAY LIKE DUST.  WHAT SHOULD WE BE?  WHAT WOULD BECOME OF US IF WE DID NOT BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A GOD WHO RULES THE WORLD AND EACH OF US?"

These words seem a solid truth, the result of a long personal quest, culminating in her acceptance of Frittie's death.   At some point, (citation I cannot locate right now), she stated that she felt the need to pray.  Her conclusion, then, seems to be one that is based on a faith in God, who can be reached individually.

In an age of questioning and discovery, her solitary journey seems to reflect a personal assessment  constituting a balance derived not only from a consideration of science- and philosophy-based uncertainty but also of a personal need to understand her role in her world, if not the role of each individual in her or his own world.  There's a newly-spun (chronologically, for her in her time) Wordsworthian certainty about the harmony she creates in her own mind.    
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 05, 2005, 10:49:19 AM
Ssyentz, I LOVE your post!!! You have expressed it so beautifully!  :)


Quote
In regard to Alice's spiritual quest:  

Alice seems to have certainly inherited her father's sense of introspection.  Additionally, she was most familiar with her mother's preference for the "simplicity" of Lutheranism, especially as opposed to the formality of Anglicanism.  Those two propensities alone would give rise to her need to question.
 


I couldn't agree with you more - but I think her father's influence was the stronger of the two. I think she & Prince Albert were such kindred spirits, though I doubt Prince Albert would have gone so far as she did in her spiritual quest.

Quote

The Strauss influence appears IMO to be a path of assurance for her rather than one of confusion.  Quite simply put, her doubts were attached to organized religion, with its intrinsic "statutes" of every version, and not to faith itself.  That romantic (in the literary sense)  journey seems to have provided her with a well-grounded and, importantly, self-determined sense of faith.      


I am not so sure that her path wasn't one of confusion, though. I do believe that for a time, she was thrown into great spiritual turmoil, which was never fully resolved. After Frittie's death, she seems to have withdrawn from her search, & taken refuge in her former beliefs. To her family this seemed like an 'upward' move, but I wonder whether it was more a matter of despair and resignation, than following her heart.

Quote
In regard to Alice's spiritual quest:  

In an age of questioning and discovery, her solitary journey seems to reflect a personal assessment  constituting a balance derived not only from a consideration of science- and philosophy-based uncertainty but also of a personal need to understand her role in her world, if not the role of each individual in her or his own world.  There's a newly-spun (chronologically, for her in her time) Wordsworthian certainty about the harmony she creates in her own mind.    


Absolutely!!! What a brilliant post!!  :D I think the Wordsworthian expression is so perfect because her aesthetic appreciation seems so connected to her spirituality. Thank you for writing this!!

(But...isn't it sad that she didn't continue her quest in the same way after Frittie's death. I find it so, so ironic that the superficial Queen Augusta accused her of atheism!!!!!!)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Finelly on July 05, 2005, 10:52:44 AM
One of the things I admire most about Alice is that she was constantly mindful of her spiritual life.  THe ability to continue to explore and question and ACT is to be commended.  The great danger, imho, of spiritual faith is that one can tend to rest on it rather than attempt to deepen it thru knowledge and thinking.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 05, 2005, 10:57:13 AM
Yes, Finelly, I agree with you, too! Alice was such an excellent example of someone who not only sought to deepen her knowledge and understanding, but acted upon it for the good of people around her. A quality that Ella surely inherited! Had Alice been in the same situation as Ella, she might well have followed the same course, wouldn't you think?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 05, 2005, 11:15:41 AM
Thanks for your responses!

Turmoil IS a much more appropriate term!  Seems possible that at the time of her statement which I quoted earlier, she wan't aware of the impact that her path toward reaching that acceptance had in itself.  Her responses after the deaths of her children seem all the more genuine because she appears to recognize them as her own set of beliefs, formed only in her mind by herself.  

She was a woman surrounded by eqocentric people.  Louis responds to her outpourings by both denying (in couched terms) any responsibility for her state of mind and, most revealing, is one of QV's 1st responses to Alice's death, "THE FIRST TO BREAK IN MY CIRCLE OF CHILDREN."
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 05, 2005, 11:21:27 AM
How difficult it must have been for her to be what others expected her to be.  Her husband needed a safe, stable status quo, totally free from disturbances while her mother needed extravagance all around her.  So, she was to be a soothing anchor for her husband and a worshipful subject for her mother.

With her sensitive mind, who would not try to find a way to create internal harmony from such cacophony?!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 05, 2005, 11:31:20 AM
Blutoria...you are so kind!

IMO, her journey was indeed like that of Ella.  As I find it to be in so many cases, the assurance of their final set of beliefs is based on ownership.  Neither could settle for the directives of others.  Obviously, Ella's direction was obviously other-centered, likely for two reasons:  1) she had no children of her own for whom she was singularly the mother, and 2) she had more time to make her mark.  

Ella's blend, I guess, was somewhat more orthodox, especially in light of her surroundings.  But her departures from orthodoxy (wish to be buried in Jerusalem, etc.) seem to be as significant as they could be.  You're the expert here, does this make sense?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 05, 2005, 11:45:31 AM
Ssyentz, I'm just so fascinated by all you write, all of which certainly does make sense.  :) Yes, I agree that Ella's circumstances enabled her to devote herself to her beliefs in a quite different way to her mother, but I think that their 'driving force' was exactly the same. Perhaps Ella found in Orthodoxy, what Alice was looking for outside established religion. Although, Ella, despite, her commitment to her new religion, often found herself - as her mother had done - at odds with the authorities (e.g. in establishing her Order & in her wish to appoint deaconesses.)

In your earlier post, you wrote of how difficult it must have been for so sensitive a soul as Alice. You have expressed it so perfectly. I feel that she was totally misunderstood by virtually everyone around her. Her husband lacked her depth of character; her mother, as you say, was so self-absorbed...if only her father had lived, she might have felt far less alone. Have you read her terribly moving description of listening to music which reminded her of her father? I posted it on another thread & will see if I can find it.

I think she was a truly profound and much misunderstood person - her character is so like that of an artist or a poet or composer, don't you think?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 05, 2005, 11:47:15 AM
Quote
With her sensitive mind, who would not try to find a way to create internal harmony from such cacophony?!


Oh how beautiful!

(The quotation about music which I mentioned is, btw, on page 1 of this thread  :'()
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 05, 2005, 12:04:28 PM
Thank you again!  Sometimes what we write reveals so much!  The music references just happened!  (Just as I've told my students for years!)

Yes, I've read about her link to her father when hearing certain pieces.  Remember how she played the piano for her father in December '61?  And, now that I think of it, I remember Ernie writing about how he & his mother enjoyed playing the piano together.  Also, another recollection...Alice's writing that touching piano keys right after Frittie's death was so painful in that it reminded her of the times he would reach for her fingers while she was playing, trying to lure her away to play with him.

Wouldn't she love to read Ernie's comment?  

Would there have ever been something of a woman if one were to find a blend of Alice and her sister Louise?  Just a notion...maybe that was Ella!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 05, 2005, 12:11:50 PM
It is absolutely heart breaking - her thoughts of Frittie reaching for her hand!!! Oh you can just imagine how she must have felt!!!

Alice & Louise = Ella?  ;D (Without Louise's cutting tongue!!)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 05, 2005, 12:39:11 PM
Louise (see my post in the Windsor section...Louise & Lorne thread) had such a problem with royalty.  She, like Alice, was imbued with that "duty" aura.  Obviously, Alice could easily accept her varying "royal" roles, but Louise was the only "royal" in her marriage.  

That "other" status made it a little easier for Louise to find some freedom to pursue her talents without too much criticism.  She certainly, however, had the weak physical constitution that, when it really set in, gave rise to her cure-seeking.

On the other hand, Alice took the heat every time she dared so much as to disagree with QV, Helena, or anyone else.  She and Vicky were the dutiful ones, with the obvious inclusion of Beatrice; Vicky & Beatrice managed, for the most part, to maintain that lofty status with QV through well-learned verbal and attitudinal machinations.  Alice, with her open speech, was criticized repeatedly for actually stating what she really felt!

At any rate, the talented Alice and Louise seem to be evident, at least to me, in Ella.  One would probably have to include a part of Vicky, too, in her ability to carry off her imperious grace.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 06, 2005, 05:56:00 AM
Yes, I agree with you again! Alice was so 'honest' (a characteristic which Alix, doubtlessly inherited) that she couldn't keep silent when something needed saying. There was, for example, the occasion when Vicky suggested they send a petition to their mother asking for the removal of John Brown. While all her siblings were complaining about him, Alice was the one to speak out and so she took the brunt of her mother's anger.
The same could be said for Alice telling QV that it was time to come out of mourning and play her role as Queen again. The whole of the Government - the whole of the country - felt the same, but Alice was the one to say it and was accused of having 'airs & graces' & upsetting everyone! (By 'everyone' QV surely meant herself!!)

I can't quite see Louise in Ella, as you do...except for the artistic ability which the whole family seemed to share. But I do see so much of both Princess Alice & Prince Albert in her....(Not that I'm disagreeing with you; just saying I don't quite see it  :))

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 07, 2005, 10:47:50 AM
With my mind really elsewhere...as all of ours are...let me at least give an idea of how I connect Louise with Ella.

The ability each of them had to use their conciliatory talents to make things happen is, IMO, striking.  From something as incidental as soothing hard feelings among siblings and their mother which Louise did even as a child to Ella's using the same talent to get her convent sanctioned, including (as she pretty much had to, & she knew it) explaining her feelings and motives to Nicky who could and did issue an imperial decree.  That ability was so genuine in each of them; they could see varying points of view and find meeting points without ever being cunningly manipulative.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Forum Admin on July 07, 2005, 11:11:05 AM
I just want to note, while our thoughts are indeed elsewhere, the BEST thing that we can do is to carry on as usual. I encourage everyone to do so, as the events of the day are deliberately designed to disrupt the normal flow of civilized (or civilised) society.

FA
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 07, 2005, 11:28:55 AM
Thank you FA for your advice. It does make one feel rather heartless to carry on as usual but you are quite right and your timely advice is very reassuring.

Therefore....

Ssyentz, I am intrigued about Louise soothing relations between her siblings & mother. I had always thought of her as the one who caused the most disagreements, which is why I could not understand your seeing her similarity to Ella. I had better go & read up more on Louise!!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 07, 2005, 12:04:10 PM
I've relied on Longford & Wake, basically.  Can't find the pg #'s right now, but I remember, for instance, citations regarding various situations in which she attempted to get Bertie to see QV's point of view.  nAnd she did so without reprimands, simply trying to put in simple terms why QV might insist on something and how Bertie should more appropriately react.  

And to my mind also come recollections about her success at persuading QV to take certain actions, for example, allowing her (L) to go to art school, getting Boehm & somene else (escapes me at the moment) buired in West. Abbey.  

I've most likely made an unfounded connection, but since both E and L seem to carry such diferent yet equally magnificent dignity, they seem connected.  And, in her own individual way, Vicky had that dignity, too.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 08, 2005, 09:42:09 AM
Thank you Ssyentz for your explanation - I'll go back & read Longford again!

To return to Princess Alice, do you not think it interesting how her children seem to have each inherited a different one of her traits. Victoria, for example, seems to have inherited her disregard for dress & status, and her excellent organizational skills. Ella, clearly inherited her concern for the poor & suffering; Alix shared her introspective spirituality; Ernie her artistic ability. What of Irene? Any ideas?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 08, 2005, 07:25:25 PM
What an interesting perspective.  I don't know enough about Irene to even begin thinking of her in that light.  Since I plan to focus on Ella for a while as soon as my neighbor brings me my mail which should include a book I'm rather impatiently waiting for ('tho the publisher assures me it's been sent!) and to which I intend to give my full attention.  Then, it'll be intriguing to study Irene.  Any suggestions for sources?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Finelly on July 09, 2005, 10:00:28 AM
Both Ella and Alix inherited her belief that suffering was redemptive.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Finelly on July 09, 2005, 10:01:17 AM
Oh, and Ella also inherited the creative side.  She designed her own gowns, etc.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 09, 2005, 10:26:47 AM
Finelly,

Good points!  

I think we can also detect a sense of resolute determination in these women.  Not really blatent defiance and frequently less as openly stated as Alice's practice, but present.  Ella was  the most eloquent at maintaining a non-offensive demeanor, seconded by Victoria.  Alix certainly got to the point where she dismissed whast she didn't (or was unwilling to) accept, with no concern at all for others' perception.
Each held to an individual set of beliefs, asserting them in differing manners.  

I need to learn much more about Irene.  It will beinteresting to note how the various situations in which each of these sisters found themselves changed these women as well as how those particular women altered their own settings and surroundings.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 09, 2005, 06:50:27 PM
Quote
I need to learn much more about Irene.  It will beinteresting to note how the various situations in which each of these sisters found themselves changed these women as well as how those particular women altered their own settings and surroundings.


Irene seems always so overshadowed by her siblings that she becomes the more interesting. I have always wondered how she felt after escaping from the German uprising with red flags tied to her car, when she discovered what had happened to her sisters at the hands of the 'Reds.'

Vicky seems to have been disappointed in her lack of interest in learning (there being no newspapers & very few books in the house) & yet she seems such a kind person. And perhaps she inherited her mother's ability to shock when she didn't - to Vicky's horror - diguise her pregnancy but appeared openly 'in front of children & gentlemen!! :o ;D
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Ssyentz on July 09, 2005, 08:46:50 PM
Seems these girls all continued their mother's sense of honesty and openness.

I have Hough's Louis & Victoria right here, waiting to be read.  What sources do you recommend for info re: Irene?  I'm still waiting for my copies of Ella and Hessian Tapestry.  I know I'll find much in those; any other ideas?

Of course, I'll never get anything read until I turn off the computer!  And then, I'll have to force myself to put down the books!  Some things I just can't multitask!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 21, 2005, 12:33:30 AM
I thought we discussed this long, long ago and decided this wasn't taken at Bertie's wedding? Louis is wearng a uniform at the wedding and not in the photo. I could be wrong though--wouldn't be the first time.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on July 21, 2005, 06:07:29 AM
The idea that this picture was taken on Bertie and Alix's wedding day must be a common mistake, because this picture and ones of Alice and Louis alone, appear in a book all about the famous wedding painting. However, you're right Grandduchessella, this was discussed in another thread, and I seem to remember there being a picture posted, from the same day--this time with Bertie (wearing a full beard, which he certainly did not have on his wedding day--it looks late 1860's-early 1870's to me) and Arthur Connaught, as a teenager, and he was still a young boy in 1863 at the wedding. So, when were they all together in the late 60's--early 70's? Did Louis come to the Thanksgiving Service for Bertie in 1872?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 21, 2005, 10:51:28 AM
I had thought at first it was the one to which you refer MrsE but Louis has a beard by then too. This must be a 3rd occasion? One in which Louis is wearing Garter gear (that is what he's wearing isn't it?) Louis had his beard by the '72 Thanksgiving service as well. This has to be early '60s but I don't think it can be Bertie's wedding for the fact that in other photos of the time Alice is heavily covered up due to the pregnancy--I can't see why she'd have a formal photo done.  ???

Here's the photo MrsE referred to:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/princesspat/britain/c1867.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 21, 2005, 12:35:50 PM
Helena was married in July of 1867.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 21, 2005, 02:34:38 PM
You're right of course.  :-[  I was looking at QV's letters to Vicky and she was complaining about Alice's treatment of Helena regarding her marriage. I thought all the trouble was before Helena married. I KNEW I should've checked the Gotha to double-check but was on my way to lunch.  :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 22, 2005, 04:11:53 AM
But Alice & Louis didn't attend Lenchen's wedding. It was in the middle of the 7 Weeks War.

In 1867 they were in England for the celebrations to welcome the Sultan.... :-/
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on July 22, 2005, 06:40:14 AM
Thanks for posting the picture anyway, Grandduchessella. Yes, that was the one, but after I posted I thought "Louis' beard!" and knew it couldn't have been right! It's all so confusing sometimes!  ;)

Maybe Blanche is right!
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on July 23, 2005, 04:03:57 PM
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/princesspat/britain/c1867.jpg)

I have a close up of this photo and I find the background very strange.  Usually there are curtains, pedestals and balustrades to set off the subjects.  This one appears to be outside a building where a screen has been erected.  But as the brick wall is visible, has it been taken from the wrong angle?
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 23, 2005, 10:31:56 PM
Every once in awhile you see the fullview of a photograph and can see the screen erected. They are probably part of a series (maybe checking angles, etc) that probably weren't published.  There's one in the Lafayette archives of GV & QM's wedding and you can see the background for the couple and the bridesmaids is just a screen with a rug on the ground. When I see these it's like seeing the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain--you always picture them in lovely throne rooms, etc...  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on July 24, 2005, 04:26:05 PM
This is most interesting Grandduchessella.  With all the splendid backgrounds that State Rooms could provide it is amazing how the Royal Family was satisfied to stand in front of a plain screen. Considering that portraiture usually included the accoutrements of Royalty, photography seems to have brought them to our level. Perhaps Mayall used his props for his other customers as well!

Is there any record of the number of photographs that were taken at the wedding of Alice and Louis?  Possibly the tradition of bride and groom and groups together began with the Wales' marriage.  
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 24, 2005, 07:15:04 PM
Alice & Louis from the painting:
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/princesspat/weddings/File1121alicelouis.jpg)

I don't think there would've been many, if any at all, family photos from Alice's wedding as it came just months after Prince Albert's death and QV was still half-mad with grief. She didn't even want the wedding to occur. Even by the time Bertie married many of the family photos were gathered around Prince Albert's bust. They took photos at Vicky's wedding but I don't know how many--I've just seen the one of QV, Prince Albert & Vicky.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 24, 2005, 07:29:12 PM
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This is most interesting Grandduchessella.  With all the splendid backgrounds that State Rooms could provide it is amazing how the Royal Family was satisfied to stand in front of a plain screen. Considering that portraiture usually included the accoutrements of Royalty, photography seems to have brought them to our level. Perhaps Mayall used his props for his other customers as well!


It would've been fun to walk in and say 'I'll have the Golden Jubilee background, please'.  :)

I guess he schlepped the backgrounds around. For GV&QM the photographs were taken at Buckingham Palace but the background was supplied by James Stack Lauder (aka J. Lafayette) who was the photographer. He recorded that he used a "Gothic style backdrop with the ecclesiastical motif I.H.S., flanked by roses, a giltwood chair in the French taste"
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Alicky1872 on July 26, 2005, 03:17:16 AM
Quote

For those who are unsure, this pic was taken at Bertie's wedding because if you look closely at the painting of Bertie's Wedding, Alice & Louis who are somewhere in the background are dressed the same as this photo and in this photo Alice, by the look of her face, is pregnant


I finally found out when this picture was taken. MAY 1863, two months after the wedding--and one month after Alice gave birth to Princess Victoria at Windsor. Yes, the clothing they're wearing in the picture is what they wore at the wedding, they were just photographed in it two months after. (Alice's dress obviously being taken in a bit at the waist!) The painting wasn't finished till a year after the wedding, and during that time, the painter (Frith) was collecting photographs of the people featured in the painting, for reference, etc.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 27, 2005, 06:03:07 AM
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Oh Blanche, I wish!  ;D

Mrs Eddy, you are far lovelier than this!  ;)

To get back on topic, this photo from QV's family, which was taken at the time of Bertie's wedding, shows, I think what QV would have thought of people being photographed when pregnant. Alice is virtually swamped in that enormous cape!

Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: Rosamund on July 27, 2005, 06:48:44 AM
When I first saw this photograph I wondered why Alice had a carpet wrapped around her!  The other girls must have been bewildered, in their innocence, by their sister's sudden lapse of taste!  

Were any of the Princesses photographed in their bridesmaids' dresses?  Such as when posing for the artist.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: grandduchessella on July 27, 2005, 10:33:20 AM
Quote
To get back on topic, this photo from QV's family, which was taken at the time of Bertie's wedding, shows, I think what QV would have thought of people being photographed when pregnant. Alice is virtually swamped in that enormous cape!


Considering the dictates of the time it's pretty surprising she was photographed in such a prominent position--especially in light of the fact that the images were widely distributed to the public. In other images though she's in the background where you can't necessarily tell if you didn't know her condition already.

Rosamund--I always thought it looked like a carpet too! I wonder if they just grabbed it off the floor and draped it around her. She has a more attractive cloak in other photos.

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/princesspat/britain/VL3NHAR33TM6.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y223/princesspat/britain/18.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: bluetoria on July 27, 2005, 10:40:51 AM
Quote

Rosamund--I always thought it looked like a carpet too! I wonder if they just grabbed it off the floor and draped it around her.


It certainly looks like it!!  ;D She must have been sweltering.

There is a quotation from Vicky in which she is very shocked to see Irene appearing 'in front of gentlemen & children in that condition.' Considering the number of children the Victorians had, it must have been very difficult to be constantly having to hide away.


Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: imperial angel on April 25, 2006, 12:04:31 PM
We know quite a bit about Queen Victoria's views- basically sumned up well here, on Russian marriages. It is harder to say about Alice, especially as her daughters were fairly young at the time of her death. She would most likely have supported the marriages of her daughters, had she been sure that is what they wanted, and it was. She might have had more reservations about Ella's marriage than that of Alix, perhaps more because of what Grand Duke Sergei was like, than the fact he was a member of the Russian Imperial Family.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: jfkhaos on April 26, 2006, 11:54:06 AM
I have recently finished reading (for the umpteenth time) Alice's letters with the forward by her sister Helena, and although I don't really recall anything negative about the Russians and marrying into the Imperial family, I do recall that Alice wanted her daughters to grow up without a view of the necessity of marrying for marrying's sake.  She did not have the desire to push her daughters into marriage, but wanted them to grow up with a mind more on public service and self-satisfaction rather than marrying because everyone else did.
Title: Re: Grand Duchess Alice of Hesse, Princess of Great Britain
Post by: imperial angel on April 27, 2006, 10:18:12 AM
Well, I wasn't even sure if Princess Alice left on record any of her views on marriage which could be applied to when her daughters got married. They were pretty young at the time of her death, although they did marry yiung in that era. I think she would have supported the marriages if that's what her daughters wanted, but most likely not pressed them into marrying if they did not want it, unlike so many royals of the period. Alice might have been very pleased with the later path of Ella ( after her husband's death), although she might not have understand the motivations of her marriage to Sergei.