Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Habsburgs => Topic started by: Svetabel on October 15, 2010, 01:46:18 AM

Title: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on October 15, 2010, 01:46:18 AM
Part II

And a link to Part I

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16484.585 (http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=16484.585)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 17, 2010, 12:47:27 AM
Thanks for the new thread Svetabel -- I see the old one ended with 666 posts.   Does that mean we've left evil territory or headed into it?   ;)

Quote from: Imperial_Grounds
However, as I have stated many times, as long as there is no definite answer I do believe in the suicide-theory (that it was out of love and such is out of the question, I think, but not that the suicide happened.

The problem I have with the official position is  that they changed their story too often -- first death was by poisoning, then apoplexy and then heart failure before they settled on suicide.  Then they attempted to withhold any information about the presence of Mary Vetsera and fudged the autopsy results.  The Grand Duke of Tuscany never changed his story -- from the start to the end of his life.  I find it easier to trust someone with an impeccable reputation for honesty who states a direct observation than to believe second-hand hearsay and suicide notes and other documents that can be easily manufactured.  Grand Duke Ferdinand IV always maintained that  Rudolf's brain had glass shards sticking from it, Francis Joseph was in a state of shock the morning after, and that Rudolf's death had not been intentional.  

Not only were they willing to evade the truth before the official finding of suicide, but then many admitted in later letters that the truth was still not known:  (from Judtmann's book)

--The Emperor Francis Joseph to King Leopold II of the Belgians:  "Anything is better than the truth!"

--The Archduke Karl Ludwig in a letter to the Duchess Ludovika of Bavaria:  "The truth is so frightful that no-one can speak about it!"

--The Archduke Ludwig Viktor: "The whole truth is so frightful that one can never confess it."

--Prince Philipp of Coburg to his wife, the Princess Louise:  "...it is terrible, terrible!  I can't tell you anything about it!"

--Count Josef Hoyos to the Archduke Johann Salvator of Tuscany:  "His Highness is dead.  That is all I can say.  Do not ask me for details.  It is too frightful.  I have given the Emperor my word that I shall not say a word about what I have seen."

--Count Henrich Taaffee:  The son of Premier Eduard Count Taaffe said many years later that "the circumstances of the Mayerling affair are far worse than anyone imagines" and then would say no more.

--Hermann Widerhofer to Larisch in My Past:  "Dr. Widerhofer (court physician) was well accustomed to horrible sights in the exercise of his profession, 'but', he said, 'for the first time in my career I felt faint when Loschek threw aside the sheet which covered the basket.  There I saw the body of a woman -- nude except for a fine lawn and lace chemise, which had been pulled up over her head'..............."

--Leopold II of Belgium in a letter to his brother Philipp Count of Flanders:  "It is absolutely important to confirm and maintain the suicide version.  It may seem difficult in the eyes of our Catholic people to see a house with the views of the House of Habsburg insisting on the suicide version.  But suicide and disturbance of mind were the only way of avoiding an unheard-of scandal, the particulars of which I cannot entrust to my letter but which I shall relate to you in full detail.........."

--Dr. Heinrich Baron von Slatin, court secretary in the Lord Marshal's Office.   Slatin did the inventory for Rudolf's estate, and also was the one to write everything that the first and second commissions found at Mayerling:  "As a result, I had repeated contact with his domestic staff -- valets, hunt personnel, servants, etc............In consequence I gained a terrifying picture of the Crown Prince's nerve-racking way of life.  I do not wish to go into detail.........."

These men were all physicians and/or soldiers-hunters.  What could have been so unusual and frightening to them?

So considering the above, this once again brings me to the intrigue of the smashed door to Rudolf's bedroom which was on the ground floor.  According to both Loschek and Hoyos, there was some time that elapsed before they finally decided to smash in the door to find Rudolf and Vetsera dead on the bed in this ground floor bedroom.

However, Dr. Widerhofer, Henrich Taaffe and Grand Duke Ferdinand IV all indicated that Rudolf and Mary Vetsera were lying dead in the upstairs bedroom instead.  So what might this tell-tale smashed door be suggesting???

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/ucqxpfrg76frycvhmht.jpg)







Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 18, 2010, 02:43:35 PM
Mary Vetsera's portrait
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/mary_vetsena.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Rani on October 18, 2010, 06:11:10 PM
Pezzazz, now you frightened me!
I wished some of them had made a hint or something else!


http://www.archive.org/stream/lastdaysofarchdu01gran#page/280/mode/2up


That´s interesting. According to some people from that region, he was "shot through the heart and from behind".
So if I murder myself, it would be very odd to shoot myself from behind.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 18, 2010, 06:43:42 PM
Rani -- the possibilities frighten me too.  There are quite a few hints about.   

Several books tell about how the Emperor and Empress contacted a psychic, Sister Catherine? if I remember right, about what happened to Rudolf since she had made a prediction about him a couple years before his death that if he didn't change, a great tragedy would occur.  In declining the 2nd request for a reading, Sister Catherine said something like ~~ "The information is there if they really want to know", so I'm guessing she assumed they did not really want to know the truth.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Rani on October 18, 2010, 07:05:41 PM
I think, too, that several people had an interest to destroy the house Habsburg.
And a link to Prussia isn´t false.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 19, 2010, 11:14:08 AM
(http://oi51.tinypic.com/1zecj92.jpg)

Rudolph with some of his dogs.  He tended to accumulate 100s of them.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: aor on October 19, 2010, 12:14:53 PM
http://www.archive.org/stream/lastdaysofarchdu01gran#page/280/mode/2up


Who is the author of this book? I see it is 'edited' by Hamilton Grant, but does this mean he is the author?? He spins quite a tale.......
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Rani on October 19, 2010, 01:15:33 PM
At archive.org there a three books from him. This Rudolf book, one about Napoleon and one about spies.
I didn´t find any other infos about him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 19, 2010, 01:56:09 PM
The book is probably by Lieutenant Victor Fritsche, Secretariat Chancellor in Rudolf's establishment.   According to Judtmann, he was bequeathed Rudolf's walking stick and cigar case by Stephanie.  I'm guessing it's him since the 2 other secretaries attached to Crown Prince Rudolf's household were much older than Rudolf, and the anonymous author of this book described himself as several years younger than Rudolf.

This book was written in 1916 before the death of Franz Joseph and in the middle of WWI so the allegations against Wilhelm II were quite bold.   It may not be all spin since towards the end he described how he caught a ride with Dr. Widerhofer to Mayerling the morning of the deaths.  Over 15 years later, Loschek's statement included the remark that "Widerhofer and a secretary" walked into the death room in Mayerling.

From ONB:  15 year old Rudolf had a hard time in getting his tie on straight!

(http://oi52.tinypic.com/15s99ir.jpg)


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 19, 2010, 02:34:14 PM
Crown Prince Rudolf at age 20:  Right click on "view image" to enlarge

(http://oi53.tinypic.com/15ob12q.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Rani on October 19, 2010, 03:29:42 PM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7JDPMTweaaI/S2hynb5o7pI/AAAAAAAACFE/Z2Nql9-Q5wQ/s400/Jugendbild_Rudolf.jpg)

(http://eremtar.hupont.hu/felhasznalok_uj/1/4/14248/kepfeltoltes/1165.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 19, 2010, 04:04:46 PM
 

A nice portrait of him

(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3251/wilhelmavita.jpg) (http://img508.imageshack.us/i/wilhelmavita.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 19, 2010, 04:09:34 PM
This must have been one of the last photos taken of Crown Prince Rudolf:

(http://oi51.tinypic.com/2n1u9gl.jpg)

(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WfUcKfAGZ34/S2MbuNkMGGI/AAAAAAAABIA/2L07gx1bF9M/KOR250A.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: THERRY on October 20, 2010, 02:57:36 AM
To contrast a picture of a young Rudolph
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/5567/scansione0006p.jpg) (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/scansione0006p.jpg/)
1870, By Emil Rabending, Vienna
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 20, 2010, 10:10:30 AM
I love to see pictures of Crown Prince Rudolf -- he had such an interesting face...............the more the better.

Below is another photo of Rudolf with some men whose names I don't recognize except for one of his private secretaries:  standing in back on the left.

Arthur Giesl von Gieslingen was mostly involved with military intelligence it seems and was perhaps sent to keep tabs on Rudolf.  He started with him a couple years before his death.  The author of "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolf" also clearly had ties with military intelligence and said he started as secretary to Rudolf a couple years before the events at Mayerling.  However, the author claimed to be several years younger than Rudolf whereas Gieslingen is a year or 2 older.   Here's an interesting bio on Giesl von Gieslingen:  

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/giesla.htm


According to this bio, Gieslingen was the true mastermind behind the Mayerling coverup -- insuring total confusion to hide the truth.

To enlarge, right click to select "view image" then left click for the + sign:

(http://oi55.tinypic.com/alonba.jpg)


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 20, 2010, 12:49:25 PM
The young Crown Prince was quite interested on birds, would be an excellent ornithologist...
and an excellent drawer, birds done by him in 1872
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/birds.jpg)
the young Crown Prince goes to hunt at 1878
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/crownpriz1878.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 23, 2010, 11:50:33 AM
(http://oi51.tinypic.com/f107eg.jpg)

The real story about the state of mind and health of Rudolf towards the end of his life is about as different from the official story as the photos above.
The one on the left is the real last photo of Rudolf taken according to Judtmann.  The one on the right is the drawing of this photo showing a countenance that has little to do with the reality.

Here's another contrasting example:

http://www.archive.org/stream/lastdaysofarchdu01gran#page/280/mode/2up

On page 245 of the above book link provided Rani, "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolf", this is what the secretary had to say about a group of friends last meeting
with Rudolf on January 26, 1889:

".....had the Archducal ménage been a source of fretfulness to him or even had his health of mind and body suggested anything like life-weariness, then I might have admitted a strong presumption for the view that he had premeditated self-destruction.  None of these conditions, however, pointed any way" to this view and ....................."the tragedy of Mayerling, to those who were with him in that final symposium, came with a shock that well-nigh unseated reason itself."

The man who wrote this book had to be Lt.  Victor Fritsche (younger than Rudolf by several years), listed as Secretariat Chancellor, in the last establishment of Rudolf's according to Judtmann's book "Mayerling: the Facts behind the Legend" from a draft prepared by Count Bombelles.  The other secretary was "Head of the Secretariat, Heinrich Ritter von Spindler, who had been with Rudolf for years and had grown children.  The other possibility was Giesl von Gieslingen who was about Rudolf's age, but was preferably known as an Aide-de-Camp.

Now here's the contrast!:  
In the book by Carl Lónyay, Stephanie's nephew-in-law, he repeatedly cites the statements and personal communication of both Victor Fritsche and Giesl v Gieslingen to say that not only was Rudolf seriously suicidal, but that he asked each of these men to join him in suicide!!  They supposedly told Rudolf they were flattered by the invitation but politely declined.   Fritsche also supposedly told Lónyay that Rudolf was so cruel, spiteful and insane towards his Archducal ménage that it was most difficult to find anyone willing to work in Rudolf's establishment/household.  Fritsche also told Lónyay that Rudolf would continuously brag about his romantic  conquests because he couldn't perform in bed.  (in the book by the secretary, he specifically said Rudolf never talked about his personal love life)  

Another tidbit I remember is that Giesl apparently told Lónyay that according to Rudolf's personal physician, Franz Auchenthaler, Rudolf had also given gonorrhea to Mary Vetsera.  However, in Judtmann's book, which is most thorough on documentation, Auchenthaler never did any autopsy/exam on Vetsera.

Unfortunately for the truth, the book by Carl Lónyay, "Rudolph: The Tragedy Of Mayerling" is often provided as a reputable source of facts about Mayerling.   The trouble here is that for whatever reason, justified or not, Carl Lónyay was so bitter and filled with hate towards the Habsburgs that most everything he said has to be suspect.  I don't understand why this point was/is not made about his book the same way it is readily made about those of Countess Larische and Princess Louise (sister of Stephanie) where it is often stated that whatever they say can be discounted because of their spite?  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 24, 2010, 02:12:59 PM
Whether these secretaries or aids to Rudolf who came from military intelligence were worshiping his memory as in "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolf" or demolishing it in later statements to those only too willing to listen and document, they can't be faulted for their lack of credibility.  After all, those trained in military intelligence by definition are masters of the art of deception and they are trained to do a job as demanded by the powers of the day. 

My guess is "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolf" were written in 1916 probably with the blessing of at least Emperor Karl who was trying to establish a separate peace with France, the US and other countries by an end run around Germany.  In this case it wouldn't hurt to establish in the minds of some that Emperor Wilhelm II was ultimately responsible for the death of the beloved Crown Prince Rudolf.

Then later, after WWI was long over, a different tune could be played as politically needed which obviously involved once again stressing the suicide of a distressed prince.

The one book I have thus far encountered for which I can find no doubt in its claims is that by Archduke Leopold Ferdinand of Tuscany, later Leopold Wolfling, who wrote "... from Archduke to Grocer".  He presented as a charming and endearing but hapless fellow incapable of duplicity.  He, along with his younger sister Louise, ex-crown princess of Saxony, and his one and only true love for life, the Infanta Elvira de Bourbon all experienced the greatest difficulties in living a little too openly and honestly.  (http://www.imageshugger.com/images/1caxco0e6wntq4y9ujp9.gif)

Here's a photo labeled as Archduke Leopold Salvator but I think it's of the Archduke Leopold Ferdinand instead??

(http://oi51.tinypic.com/2i9077.jpg)

Here's another one of Leopold Ferdinand that is in his book:

(http://oi55.tinypic.com/2vsnbye.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 24, 2010, 02:23:36 PM
Yup, the first one is mislabeled. Leopold Salvator was WAY more handsome

(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8177/leopoldsalvator.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 24, 2010, 02:50:13 PM
Now, I was missing this thread.... I never trusted the book from Lonyay, after all Crown Princess Stephanie felt a strong hatred for Rudolf and his mother - for their treatment of her, so we only get what she saw as truth... In her memoirs we see the same thing: Rudolf and Elisabeth are quite humanly portrayed etc, to be nice, while Stephanie depicts Mary Vetsera as the saintly girl who was lured into death by Rudolf
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: aor on October 25, 2010, 08:17:08 AM
Till the House of Habsburg allows the truth to be told, it's all is speculation. I hope that the 'younger' generation will shine a light on this tragedy when it is time. There are too many 'accounts', too many stories to piece together this puzzle. I for one would love to know about the metal box that was returned from Canada to the Habsburg Family. It should give a lot more credence do Grafin Larish' story of the box handed to her by Rudolph and later picked up by Johann Salvator.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 25, 2010, 12:37:16 PM
Found this as Mary Vetsera (the gown must be some traditional hungarian gown)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/VictorianLadies/mariavetsera.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 25, 2010, 12:47:07 PM
I have that picture. Believe it's in "Nervous Splendor", labeled as Mary Vetsera dressed up as a peasant for a Costume Ball
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 25, 2010, 06:43:14 PM
Yup, the first one is mislabeled. Leopold Salvator was WAY more handsome


That's true -- your Leopold is WAY more handsome than my Leopold.   Maybe that's why Leopold Ferdinand was not allowed to marry Princess Elvira of Bourbon (political conflicts between families was reason given), but Leopold Salvator did marry her older sister at about the same time.

..................while Stephanie depicts Mary Vetsera as the saintly girl who was lured into death by Rudolf

Stephanie doesn't come across as one with whom it's easy to feel sympathy.   She would have done more to protect her reputation if she never wrote her memoirs.

Till the House of Habsburg allows the truth to be told, it's all is speculation. I hope that the 'younger' generation will shine a light on this tragedy when it is time. There are too many 'accounts', too many stories to piece together this puzzle...............................


The book "Mayerling Murders" and the one by Judith Listowel,  "A Habsburg Tragedy, Crown Prince Rudolf" both had direct grandchildren of Crown Prince Rudolf as collaborators.  Since the conclusions of one book contradicts the other, then either these 'younger' generation Habsburgs don't know the truth, or they collaborated to make sure the truth remained hidden.  The truth is probably already available if anyone is willing to face it.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 26, 2010, 06:46:56 AM
Well.... Maybe the truth is already out there, but we just don't see it. It is possible, with all those theories one does not know what to believe anymore.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 26, 2010, 09:32:15 AM
At Kronpriz Rudolf Facebook group i found these three images of Maria Antonia, the supposed first wife of him

(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4988/40157161550135630414994.jpg) (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/40157161550135630414994.jpg/)

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8767/65226161549839623014994.jpg) (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/65226161549839623014994.jpg/)

 

 
is it really her?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 26, 2010, 10:33:49 AM
That's fantastic Katenka -- you're so good at finding photos. (http://www.imageshugger.com/images/2yxny3y049l08n1s5kr8.gif)

According to Judith Listowel, Rudolf was very much in love with her and heart-broken when she decided to enter a convent.   The Emperor didn't think she was grand enough to be Rudolf's wife. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 26, 2010, 12:35:20 PM
The young Crown Prince in horseback with his mother, the Empress Sissi
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/VictorianLadies/rudimommy.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on October 26, 2010, 12:41:50 PM
At Kronpriz Rudolf Facebook group i found these three images of Maria Antonia, the supposed first wife of him


 

 
is it really her?

That's her. Fancy-dress.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 26, 2010, 12:46:38 PM
Thanks for the confirmation!. Glad to see her face, since i ve heard so much about her
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 26, 2010, 01:10:34 PM
Well.... Maybe the truth is already out there, but we just don't see it. It is possible, with all those theories one does not know what to believe anymore.

 I like your quote:  "Learn To Live With My Darker Side".  The truth about Mayerling probably has a far darker side than anyone wants to see.  For instance, who else was killed that night besides Mary Vetsera?   According to many different sources, there were several people that disappeared from Austria the night of the Mayerling murders never to be seen or heard again.  As I mentioned before this included the servants Max and Otto according to "The Secrets of the Hohenzollerns".  There was also the "suicide" that morning of one of the gamekeepers by the name of Werner (The New York Times of Feb. 2, 1889).  Another death that very well might have happened at Mayerling that night was of Countess Anastasia Wimpffen.

The book, "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolph" probably written by his secretary Victor Fritsch (rumored to be the illegitamate son of a king of Württemberg) refers to Countess Wimpffen as Madame "Larricarda" who was the hostess of the salon of "vaudeville gaiety" in Vienna that was frequented by Rudolph and his friends, and was the most common meeting place for Rudolph with Mary Vetsera.

The secretary relates how he took the train to Baden for a few days vacation while Rudolph was in Mayerling, and on the train, he saw Mary Vetsera with "Madame Larricarda".  He then noticed that the 2 women get off the train at Baden and got into an "ordinary hackney coach  of the provincial type; its direction was the road to Mayerling."   This of course contradicts the official story that Mary Vetsera was driven by Bratfisch in an imperial coach to Mayerling.

So here we have a report of 2 women traveling to Mayerling, and in a short time, they were both dead.  Madame "Larricarda" or Countess Anastasia Wimpffen was reported as a death by suicide (poisoning) about 3 weeks later.  Naturally, I have to wonder, considering all the official cover-up of actual events at Mayerling, when did Countess Wimpffen really die?

An interesting side-light about Countess Wimpffen is that through her, a decendent of the Baltazzi family was finally joined in holy matrimony to a decendent of the Habsburgs.  A few years after her death, her oldest son married the eldest daughter of Count Georg von Stockau, by his wife, Countess Eveline, daughter of Theodorus Evangelis Baltazzi, of Constantinople.  Their granddaughter, Countess Johanna von Wimpffen. b. at Budapest, Hungary, 25th May 1936. married at Vienna, Austria, 27th April 1957, H.S.H. Prince Otto Ernst Wilhelm zu Windisch-Graetz, grandson of Crown Prince Rudolf's only daughter.

http://4dw.net/royalark/Georgia/dadan3.htm





Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 26, 2010, 02:34:34 PM
Hmmm.... Fascinatin story you told about the Countess. Well, the truth will probably remain hidden, no matter how much we speculate. I also wonder, what would have happened to the supposed ring and such that Mary was wearing? And that quote, well, it is one of strong personal meaning... Every soul has its troubles, mine probably will read that quote. But, no chatting about personal troubles, we're not here for that.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 01, 2010, 05:59:24 PM
Back to the attempt to crack the Mayerling code haha!

What is it about Mary Vetsera that makes for the most mystery in Mayerling?   There's something strange about Mary. 
 
To recap:  The unquestionable Grand Duke Nando with perfect means, motive and opportunity gave some indisputable truths about what happened at Mayerling:
 
1)  Rudolf died from a blow to the head from some strong glass object -- possibly a champagne bottle
2)  Rudolf's death was manslaughter -- there was no intention to kill him.
3)  The Emperor Francis Joseph was in a state of shock the morning after Rudolf's death when Nando arrived.
 
And something else I read this weekend according to telegrams seen by the excellent documentarian Fritz Judtmann, Grand Duke Nando
told Papal Nuncio Galimberti (also shown in the German Ambassador Ruess's report to Otto von Bismarck as well as a 2nd independent confirmation in Marie Larisch's "My Past' from what Dr. Wiederhofer told her) that:
 
4)  Mary Vetsera had a bullet wound at the top of  head as well as other wounds
 
The above gives a high probability that Rudolf did not kill himself, he was killed accidentally and there was no political assassination (although there may have been separate plans for that).   There is also a high probability that Mary was not killed accidentally -- in other words, one accidental killing is plausible.  A 2nd killing the same night in the same location is most unlikely to be accidental also. 
 
So why would anyone want to murder Mary?  Sadly her death appears not to be a Love Kill from some Romantic Pact after all.  This is where it starts to get quite strange. 
 
The popular myth is that Mary Vetsera only met Rudolf a few months before their deaths by writing him a letter professing her love.  Next, what do the best sources actually say about when Rudolf really met Mary Vetsera and why the rush to minimize their time together?

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: MarieCharlotte on November 02, 2010, 06:30:09 PM
(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8767/65226161549839623014994.jpg) (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/65226161549839623014994.jpg/)

Again a picture from the ONB - I actually bought a copy of the original. Again and again it's annoying to find these pictures somewhere in the internet.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 02, 2010, 11:19:59 PM
(http://oi53.tinypic.com/103iov9.jpg)
 
Here's a photo of Marie Valérie and Marie Larisch.   It probably belongs in one of their exclusive threads but Larisch is now pivotal in this part of the story which diverges.  

It’s always intrigued me why Marie Larisch was banned from court forever for reasons that don’t make a lot of sense.  She facilitated a few meetings between Rudolf and Mary Vetsera after their relationship was already established, and was possibly paid for doing so in part at least to pay off gambling debts.  (Access for cash to pay off gambling debts seemed to be a common practice for many aristocrats in those days including Rudolf as well as his good friend, Albert Prince of Wales, later Edward VII.)

By most reports, Rudolf was a libertine, a real Lothario who had many girlfriends – so many he couldn’t remember their names.  This kind of behavior was more or less accepted among most archdukes since they were expected to marry for political reasons and so finding love elsewhere was typical.  Rudolf also had his main long-term mistress Mitzi Caspar and she was mostly accepted as a part of his life.  Stephanie may not have liked it, but then again, the Emperor and Empress seemed to not care a great deal what Stephanie wanted.  Why, of all Rudolph’s girlfriends, was only his relationship with Mary Vetsera objected to with such urgency – by not only the Emperor, who usually winked at his amorous adventures, but also by the Empress who usually showed little interest in her son’s love life?

Similarly, why did Josel Hoyos and Philipp of Coburg both go to such great lengths to deny any knowledge of the presence of Mary Vetsera at Mayerling even to the Emperor at first – considering it was common knowledge that Rudolph had entertained numerous women at Mayerling?  

Now where the story gets even more confusing or perhaps it’s merely the flip side of the same coin is why did Marie Larisch become “demented” and go into a panic when she took Vetsera to see Rudolf, and he decided to keep her for a couple days contrary to what they agreed?  At first in reading her book “My Past” I just assumed this was her way of excusing herself by showing how distraught she was and that she had been misled – supposedly possible only in hindsight anyway.  However, Fritz Judtmann saw a couple of letters that Marie Larisch had written to the Police Chief Krauss who kept them in his secret files on Mayerling, and these letters asking him to help find Mary clearly showed that Marie Larisch was in a genuine state of panic.  

So what are the possibilities?

A.    Larisch was in a state of panic since her part in helping a romance between Rudolf and Mary might be exposed and considered to be unforgivable behavior on her part for some mysterious reason.

B.   Larisch was afraid for the personal safety of Mary…….of Rudolf……..or for both?

C.   Both A and B
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 03, 2010, 02:46:01 PM
The Crown Prince
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalFamilies/CrownPc.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on November 04, 2010, 07:41:43 AM
When Count Taffee on behalf of the Emperor issued that first statement (the heart failure story) at noon on 30th January, no one in Vienna knew that the cause of the Crown Prince's death was a bullet to the brain. The Imperial family and court were under the impression that he had been poisoned, and it appears that even Helene Vetsera initially believed this. It was only when the court medical commission headed by Dr. Widerhofer arrived in Mayerling that afternoon that the true cause of death was established. Transport and communications in those days being less rapid than is the case today, it was not until 6h00 the following morning (31/01/1889) when Dr. Widerhofer made his report to Emperor Franz Joseph that the true state of affairs became known. At that stage the "heart failure" version was quickly amended to the "hunting accident" version, which of course explains the damage to the head and the bandages etc.

One fact that has always puzzled me is why Loschek was so quick to jump to the conclusion that Rudolf and Mary had been poisoned with strychnine. My personal theory is that Loschek and also Bratfisch knew far more than they admitted and may have been even acting out a part assigned to them by Rudolf.

With regard to Larisch and her state of panic: she was terrified that the role she played and the fact that she borrowed money from Rudolf would be exposed. She was also afraid for the personal safety of both Mary and Rudolf, as she had no doubt gained an insight into the fact that this was to be no ordinary rendez-vous.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 04, 2010, 11:05:12 AM
Nice to see you posting here again Greenowl !   8)


With regard to Larisch and her state of panic: she was terrified that the role she played and the fact that she borrowed money from Rudolf would be exposed. She was also afraid for the personal safety of both Mary and Rudolf, as she had no doubt gained an insight into the fact that this was to be no ordinary rendez-vous.


Perhaps, but remember the one question the Empress gave both Andrassy and Widerhofer to ask Larisch:  'Was Rudolph behaving normally the last time she saw him?'   Larisch replied, "No..........................."   Oops!  That's where the real crime was.  Considering her supposed relationship with the Empress and that the Empress had always told her Rudolf was "dangerous" then it should have behooved Marie Larisch to report this immediately to the Empress but she didn't.  She waited, and waited some more until she reported it to the Police Chief Krauss who was well known to be ineffectual when it came to doing anything concerning the Imperial Family.  

(http://oi52.tinypic.com/35a3itv.jpg)  

Right click and select "view image" to enlarge
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 04, 2010, 07:16:00 PM
Should Marie Larisch have the last word on when Rudolph and Mary Vetsera first became acquainted?

In an earlier post we saw where K Schratt in letters told how an upset Stephanie told her she refused to go to  Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee in 1887 since she didn't want to have to witness Rudolph chasing after that school girl Mary Vetsera.   That was ~ 1.5 years before the official position on when they met.

In her book, My Own Affairs, Louise of Coburg stated that Rudolph and Vetsera's affair had lasted for 3 years.  Princess Louise also said that the emperor was so anxious for Rudolph to break it off with Mary Vetsera that he told Rudolph MV was his half-sister from an affair he'd had with her mother, but Rudolph just laughed it off.

In the book by Rudolph's private secretary "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolph", the author made this observation:  "Many of those who were prominent in the personal entourage of the Empress were Greek men and women; some of her ladies of honour, one of her private secretaries, her favorite reader, were all Levantine Greeks.  The Empress often invited Mary Vetsera as a young debutante to their Monday "Home Days"", where Rudolph was usually also present.  Elsewhere, the author made the remark that Home Days were for the Imperial Family only!

Now, going back a few more years -- in "The Lonely Empress" by Joan Haslip, Countess Festetics, Sisi's stuffy lady-in-waiting, did not approve of how Hélène  Vetsera was "in hot pursuit of the crown prince".  Festetics related how she laughingly told Rudolph "that the lady could make her assignations with His Imperial Highness elsewhere, but not in her drawing room" when Rudolph was attempting to get her to receive them together.  This book also described how Franz Joseph would tease Rudolph about the attentions of Hélène Vetsera and found it all amusing, whereas the Empress was mostly indifferent. 

Then in "My Past", Marie Larisch said the Empress introduced her to Hélène Vetsera, and this was when Larisch was still a teenager.  (Larisch and Rudolph were the same age).  The Empress told Larisch that "Rudolph was generally supposed to have found Hélène Vetsera extremely sympathetic when his thoughts first turned to love".  When does a boy's thoughts generally first turn to love -- around age 12 or 13?

(http://oi55.tinypic.com/2luf3w5.jpg)

By Golly!   I do think I see a resemblance.....



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 05, 2010, 12:06:07 PM
A little more about the impressions of Marie Larisch -- here's one of their first encounters as described in 'My Past':

"When he entered the room I experienced a curious feeling of uneasiness. Perhaps my subconscious self knew the danger which Rudolph was destined to become in my life, and my nervousness increased when I saw that he watched me narrowly out of the corners of his eyes. The Crown Prince sat next to me and commenced to tease me unmercifully, and, boy though he then was in years, he seemed to possess the intelligence of a man. He was handsome, and for some time I racked my brains to remember what wild animal he recalled to me, for he had a curious look not altogether human. Then, I knew—Rudolph reminded me of a wolf; his eyes blazed green at times, and he seemed almost ready to spring. "Was he as cruel as a wolf?" I wondered, and then an icy chill went down my spine as I recalled the Empress's words to me before dinner when I had gone to show her my pretty gown. "Marie," she had said, "to-night you will see Rudolph. I warn you against him, because he will turn on you if ever he gets the chance.""

(http://oi53.tinypic.com/24wr1mw.jpg)              (http://oi52.tinypic.com/2n1vqfb.jpg)

And then years later, during the mess with Mary Vetsera when he was enlisting the help of Larisch:
Quote
"The maid, who looked flustered, said to me in an agitated whisper, "The Crown Prince is here," and the words were hardly out of her mouth when a tall figure, dressed in a military cloak, walked into my room. It was my cousin.

Rudolph had turned up the collar of his cloak; he wore his kepi well down over his eyes, and for some moments I stared at him in astonishment. Then he stepped forward and kissed my hand, saying as he did so, "I hope you 'll forgive this informal call, Marie." I was silent, and my cousin looked at me with his mocking smile."

Rudolf is usually referred to as tall -- I wonder how tall he was?   Anyway, here's the usual description of Rudolph as a tall, handsome and charming prince with impeccable manners -- but did it hide a soul of darkness combined with the ultimate in imperial arrogance?  

Later on at this same meeting was a most odd exchange:  http://tinyurl.com/2vjchem
Quote
Rudolph:  "You know all about the little Vetsera girl and myself?"

Larisch:  "I know something," I replied, at once on my guard.  "Well, perhaps I do, but I am not too sure."

Rudolph:  "I hope you don't imagine that this is a platonic friendship?" said the Prince, "because if you do I had better disillusion you at once. The affair is not at all innocent; in fact I'm in the devil of a mess in more ways than one............................

Now I have to wonder why would Rudolph assume Marie Larisch could think the affair between him and Marie Vetsera should be only platonic?  






Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 05, 2010, 08:48:46 PM
Your posts are very interesting to us who know very little about the case, Pezzazz! Great pictures of Rudolf, it's interesting that he was so handsome when his parents also were recognized as very good-looking. They were all too beautiful to be happy!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Lucien on November 06, 2010, 02:42:17 AM
Schena buab,good-looking guy,yes,but as all the rest is told by Marie Larisch,a pain and chronical attentionseeker & gossip,
it's nothing more then shrug your shoulder material.Elisabeth,at a point,couldn't stand the woman for all the above reasons,
and showed that.Marie,in her writings,pretends she knew it all beforehand while she actually knew nothing.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 07, 2010, 12:09:29 PM
Your posts are very interesting to us who know very little about the case, Pezzazz! Great pictures of Rudolf, it's interesting that he was so handsome when his parents also were recognized as very good-looking....

Thank you for your kindness Фёдор Петрович.   It is a compelling mystery.

Schena buab!?   Yes you're right Lucien, Marie Larisch became a major problem for the Imperial Family.  One has to remember though that through no fault of her own, she was born into no-man's land.  She was the illegitimate daughter of the Empress's brother Ludwig Wilhelm, Duke in Bavaria and his actress girlfriend Henriette Mendel whom he later married morganatically.   Then the Empress wanted the young Marie with her in Austria -- partly for her horsemanship -- but it was a thoughtless arrangement that forever left Marie on the outside for all practical purposes.

Although Marie Larisch had beauty, brains, style, passion and was a bit of a wild child, her marriage prospects due to her birth were nil -- especially in the Austrian Court.  It's not hard reading between the lines to see that that Marie Larisch was probably in love with Rudolf, and under other circumstances, she might have been an ideal mate for him.  But there was to be no marriage for her to the Crown Prince.  In any case, Rudolf was duty-bound and he wanted to reach across the hated Germany and make an alliance with Belgium through marriage.  There was also to be no marriage to an archduke for Larisch and she was not permitted to even marry for love.  Instead Empress Elizabeth arranged a marriage for her niece with a dull but good-natured fellow in the hopes that he would not interfere with Marie's primary duty to be a companion to the Lonely Empress.  Needless to say, this all had to be a very bitter pill for Marie to swallow, and it was probably a mistake on the part of the Imperial Family to assume that Marie knew the score in its entirety.  

It is interesting that by the time of Marie's marriage, she had already come to dread black pearls.  The Empress didn't like to wear diamonds but she loved pearls, especially black pearls.  Here's an excerpt about this from her book My Past:  

Quote
The Empress gave a soiree for me in the evening before my wedding, and just as I was coming down the staircase, I met the Crown Prince Rudolph, who was going up. He stopped and informed me that I was the very person he wanted to see. "I have something to give you—here it is," and, as he spoke, he handed me a flat morocco case. "Open it," he added, "and tell me whether my little souvenir meets with your approval."

I opened the case, which contained a brooch set with an enormous black pearl. I started in dismay, for I have always had a dread of wearing black pearls.

My cousin asked:  "My dear Marie, you are making your own misfortune in life by this foolish marriage; do you not honestly think it is a very mad scheme? Surely it is only to please mamma?"


The Larisch marriage was not a happy one and before long Marie found herself in a clandestine affair with Henrich Baltazzi:

(http://nd01.jxs.cz/023/371/6cfe6c0d05_46581573_o2.jpg)

Before or after this there developed a close friendship between Marie Larisch and Baltazzi's sister Hélène Vetsera, Mary's mother.  

Now there's an alliance made in hell:  Marie Larisch -- compelled to find justice for the cruel loss of her marriage prospects, and the cunning and Ambitious Hélène Vetsera!  Thick as thieves, they later turned on each other, so it wasn't hard to see from where they were coming.

So the fire was neatly laid and the two women quickly realized the match to light the bon-fire to destroy the marriage and reputation of the Crown Prince was the stars in the eyes of the young Mary Vetsera whenever she looked at Rudolph who in turn was too much of a gentleman to ever say no to a lady.

Now one has to realistically consider the question:  did Mary Vetsera as a very young and rather plump and unattractive yet experienced coquette put a love spell on the great Lothario or was it in reality Shake Down Time where Rudolph found himself eternally unable to shake off the amorous attentions of Mary Vetsera?  



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 07, 2010, 12:28:50 PM
Schena buab!?
You know so much about the Habsburgs I assumed you were Austrian. You are not?
Schena Buab = Schöner Bube = Handsome lad.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 07, 2010, 05:30:43 PM
Schena Buab = Schöner Bube kind of sounds like shining bubba - but I like handsome boy better.

No, obviously I don't speak the Austrian language.   ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7BVL_KPhtg
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 07, 2010, 06:15:23 PM
No, obviously I don't speak the Austrian language.   ;D
Schåde, des is solch a gmüetliche Språch: YouTube: Wie Behmen noch bi Est'raich war. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbUgtHJ15RU&feature=related) :-)
(= Too bad, it's such a cozy language: YouTube: When Bohemia still belonged to Austria.)

Zua Koasers Zeitn... = Zu Kaisers Zeiten = In Emperor's Times =Back in the days of the ol' Emperor.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 08, 2010, 02:56:23 PM
Here's where a nugget of truth is revealed despite the author's best efforts to keep it hidden:  In Larisch's My Past

Quote
I could not shake off a feeling of uneasiness...........................I was accustomed to be made use of by my various relations, but their intrigues were generally romantic and harmless, and, better still, soon over and as soon forgotten. But the Prince was not like my amorous family, and I had hitherto not played with fire.

I recalled Elizabeth's words, "Beware of Rudolph." The Empress no doubt had some good reason for warning me against her son. He was not to be trusted, she had said, and he could be a dangerous enemy.

Throughout this book, Larisch insists she is the innocent one, merely doing what Rudolph or Mary Vetsera ask of her out of her fondness for them.  But in the above quote Marie Larisch admits to playing a dangerous game with none other than Rudolph and Rudolph only.   She's not worried about getting scorched by anyone else -- not the Emperor/Empress/her husband/Mary's mother -- no, she only admits to playing with fire where Rudolph is concerned.  Of course, she doesn't say what kind of treacherous game she has been playing with him, but we probably have a good idea by now eh?  

What Larisch probably didn't realize was what an impossible position she put Rudolph in -- she probably assumed she'd never get caught, and if she did, he would probably understand.  But he didn't.   Between Marie Larisch, Hélène Vetsera and the demands of Mary Vetsera -- they got on the last nerve of the high-strung Rudolph.   Marie Larisch probably finally understood what she had done when the following happened at her last meeting with Rudolph:

Quote
The Prince violently put his hand over my mouth and dragged me back. " Do you want me to hurt you?" he asked with dreadful meaning in his voice..............................."Unless you swear to be quiet, I 'll kill you," hissed Rudolph.

He released my wrists, which he held as in a vice, and without another word he opened a drawer in his writing-table and took from it a little black revolver. He came to where I stood.

"Do you want me to shoot you ?" He caught me by the throat and pressed the weapon against my forehead.

So now it all makes sense -- why Marie Larisch was in a panic -- and why the Imperial Family banned her forever from court and from Austria.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 09, 2010, 12:08:03 PM
For some reason this photo reminds me of the late great Prince of Grunge of Nirvana. 

(http://oi54.tinypic.com/15pml4o.jpg)

I was surprised to see Rudolph was believed to have a true genius for the more grungy type of music ;)

Quote
Crown Prince Rudolph, was a composer of no
mean power and seemed at times to pour forth his entire soul in the
melodies which he coaxed from this instrument. Indeed he often sat at
the piano for hours, playing, in a manner indescribably expressive and
touching, airs improvised on the spur of the moment, which, while they
remained impressed on the minds and ears of those present, would seem
to fade at once from the memory of the prince himself. His was what
may be called a true genius for music

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/12548/pg12548.txt
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 09, 2010, 12:39:18 PM
Tha image remind me of THIS (http://img.macjams.com/song_art/20232_king%20of%20hearts.jpg)

BTW, that image was of some play or costume party?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 09, 2010, 12:43:56 PM
Wow, amazing picture! I do hope (but in another way I don't) that that is a theatre prop and not the real Crown of the Holy Roman Empire kept in the vaults of the Hofburg!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 09, 2010, 01:37:00 PM
From what I remember it was for some parade in Vienna where Rudolph did this monariacal spoof.  (http://theinternetforum.net/royalforum/Smileys/default/shifty.gif)

Here's another one from that same day I think:

(http://oi51.tinypic.com/16gllra.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 09, 2010, 01:55:35 PM
Nope, i think that s from a thematical ball. I ve seen images of other Habsburg in that kind of costumes.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 10, 2010, 07:59:53 PM
The St. Louis Medical Review, Volume 47 in 1903

Quote

A Marinette, Wisconsin, paper is authority for a.story to the effect that Professor Hoffman, who recently resigned from the faculty of the University of Iowa, is Crown Prince Rudolph of Austria, who was supposed to have killed himself fifteen years ago. Hoffman's resignation at the university was requested because he refused to reveal his identity after admitting that he was going under an assumed name. It is stated that "Professor Hoffman" visited in Menominee, Mich., at the home of a prominent woman who is a sister of the commander of an Austrian battleship. ' At the time that it was reported that the Crown Prince had killed him> self in Austria, it is asserted, a corpse resembling him was made use of at the funeral, while the prince disappeared from the Empire. It is further asserted that Hoffman, professor of medicine, is none other than Prince Rudolph. The Crown Prince was considered one of the leading natural scientists of Austria. The story in part is confirmed by Dr. Redelings, of Marinette, and Attorney B. J. Brown, of Menominee.

Below is a composite of all those actually named to be romantically associated with Rudolph.   Could Mary Vetsera have been so irresistible and singular that Rudolph became willing to do anything to be with her all the time? 


Right click and select "view image" to enlarge
(http://oi53.tinypic.com/1zokwf6.jpg)   

Half the authorities on Rudolph's love life claim he did not love Mary Vetsera and the other half claim he did, but one thing they all agree on -- Rudolf was desperate to escape from this love affair. 

Here is how it is typically described:   "My Own Affairs" by Louise of Coburg

Quote
At Ambassador Reuss's reception in late January 1889:   Rudolph noticed me and leaving Stéphanie came straight up to me.  "She is there," he said without any preamble;  "ah, if somebody would only deliver me from her !"

"She" was Mary Vetsera, his mistress of the ardent face.  I, too, glanced at the seductress.  Two brilliant eyes met mine.  One word will describe her.  Mary was an imperial sultana, one who feared no other favourite, so sure was she of the power of her full and triumphant beauty, her deep black eyes, her cameo-like profile, her throat of a goddess, and her arresting sensual grace. 

She had altogether taken possession of Rudolph, and she longed for him to be able to marry her.  Their liaison had lasted for three years...............................At the soirée I was struck by my brother-in-law's state of nervous exhaustion but I thought it well to try and calm him by saying a word or two about Mary which would please him, so I remarked quite simply:  "She is very beautiful.".......................Rudolph left me without replying.  An instant later he returned and murmured:  "I simply cannot tear myself away from her."

It's quite interesting that Princess Louise wrote the above quote in her book published in 1921 and  ~15 years later her sister, the former Crown Princess Stephanie published her book which claimed without a doubt that Rudolf had never loved Mary Vetsera -- he was only using her. 

While it's entertaining to think that Rudolph might have escaped to America with his only true love, and the above journal article is a 2nd confirmation (or idea source?) of the 1937 book "He did not Die at Mayerling"  -- the practical problems with that make it seem highly unlikely.  A more prudent question might be exactly how desperate was Rudolph to escape from Mary and Why?  Exactly what did Mary Vetsera / her mother propose Rudolph should do with his wife in order to marry his mistress in the ultra-conservative and very Catholic Austria?   Could his frustration have led to an overwhelming infuriation?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 12, 2010, 05:47:37 AM
Unfortunately I have to qualify the remarks of Louise of Coburg about Rudolph and Mary Vetsera in the above post since in further reading of her book she is clearly filled with venom and bitterness against Stephanie.  "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudoph" also claimed Rudolph was hopelessly devoted to Mary Vetsera but then he was with MI so who knows about the political motive?  

The only other verification I can think of for this was in Larisch's My Past when she claimed the Baroness Vetsera asked her to tell  Rudolph something like ~~ if he was so in love with Mary, then maybe they could come to some kind of understanding.  But then in her Memorandum, the Baroness accused Larisch of extorting money from Rudolph, and so this might have merely been pay back.

So far, the best evidence I've seen about the true feelings of Rudolph for Mary Vetsera were in Fritz Judtmann's book where he said he saw telegrams from Rudolph to Mary and it was clear that although Rudolph was extremely polite and careful in his wording, he was truly trying to free himself of their relationship.  

Everyone does seem to agree though that both Rudolph and his father were quite anxious for him to break his ties with Mary Vetsera..................which leaves me wondering about the possibility that Mary Vetsera/her mother had sensitive information they might have been using against Rudolph?  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 13, 2010, 05:58:57 AM
Two handtinted images  from the era of Rudolf and Stephanie. Credits to Imagno archives

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3687/00522668.jpg) (http://img593.imageshack.us/i/00522668.jpg/)

(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/552/00522667.jpg) (http://img801.imageshack.us/i/00522667.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 14, 2010, 12:52:02 PM
Splendid Photos Katenka............many thanks.

A great little book I was reading last night, "Recollections of a Royal Governess" published in 1916, confirmed some  previous posts in this thread  and in part  #1 and knocked others.  The author impressed me as a straight shooter and was appointed as governess to little Erzi in 1889 soon after the events at Mayerling and stayed in that position until Erzi married.   

The 1st topic that was quite interesting and something I had wondered about when reading "He did not Die at Mayerling" was what did Rudolf's daughter say about it since no one could expect a young child to go along with any fabrication imposed by the highly censored Austrian court?  When she first saw her father on his funeral bed, Erzi insisted it was not her daddy, and she continued to insist he did not die at Meyerling at least up until the time she married.   Imagine that!  Of course the governess said everyone tried to tell little Erzi that was ridiculous but she would not listen.  Who knows?  Maybe it was the hysterical denial of a distressed child, or maybe not?  The governess was generally postive about Stephanie, but did say she seemed totally indifferent to the death of her husband.

Then she discussed something I found highly entertaining -- about "The Martyrdom of an Empress" discussed in Part 1 of this thread.  That book was first published anonymously in 1899, and then by Marguerite Cunliffe-Owen in later editions and she was a newspaper reporter in New York.  I always thought the book contained far too much personal detail of someone too close to and extremely devoted to the Empress to be written by any newspaper reporter who had never even met the Empress.  The royal governess said this book was written by none other than Ida Ferenczy,  appointed as a reader to the Empress in 1864 and who gained more intimacy and influence over the Empress than anyone else (according to Joan Haslip in The Lonely Empress)!    Because of this, many thought adverse influence, the Austrian Court hated Ida Ferenczy and as soon as the Empress died, Ferenczy was kicked out of the palace, so she wrote this book as revenge.  I do remember this book said that there was no way Rudolph could have killed Mary Vetsera because "he loved her more than life itself".   So I'll have to amend my previous conclusion that Rudolph really didn't love Mary Vetsera all that much since this is the best evidence I have seen yet on that subject.  However, I still maintain that for some mysterious reason, Rudolph was still desperate to end their relationship.

The other topic I found quite sad but had already suspected was there were many people, including Stephanie's own sister Princess Louise of Coburg, who were absolutely determined to blow up the marriage between Rudolph and Stephanie.  Every betrayal of the marriage by Rudolph, real or fabricated, was communicated to Stephanie, who chose not to believe her husband's repeated denials.

Finally though I haven't finished the book yet, she did mention some aspects of what happened at Mayerling that I have long suspected but have heretofore never seen in print anywhere else.   Freaky stuff.


The Royal Governess

(http://oi53.tinypic.com/359zv4g.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on November 22, 2010, 01:53:26 PM
Now, I had some catching up to do in this thread... I'm still inclined to believe the official take on the story. Rudolf was depressed and was only looking for a way out of this life, yet he was afraid and 'choose' Mary as his companion. Well, this might well be the truth and the suicide notes and letters can't be dismissed. Yet, I am intrigued by what Pezzaz brought up... I read in one book about Elisabeth that Rudolf and Mary had been meeting since 1887, and I dismissed it as a mistake, but there are so many sources who claim this.... What is up with this? Also, I believe Rudolf and Mary - or atleast Mary's family - were using each other. Mary might have been madly in love, but also she might have seen Rudolf as a way to reach higher in this life. And Rudolf might have seen her as a simple fling, and eventually as a means to get out of life. And I never read that Rudolf wanted to get away from Mary... Well, I have, but it is always assumed he wanted to protect her....(this all works fine with the Hungarian Plot).... But what if Rudolf and Mary were having problems in their relationship and things simply escalated at Mayerling? It's all speculation, just as the aborted pregnancy and the political assassination are, but the letters that were found.... And those that were written by Mary in the months before, claiming she would kill herself and that there was a pact with Rudolf? Can we dismiss these?...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 28, 2010, 09:40:22 PM
Imperial_Grounds -- An excellent (and affordable) book that thoroughly debunks the suicide theory is "The Mayerling Murders" 1969 by Victor Wolfson.

Here's a nice article about a guide's first-hand account of his relationship with Crown Prince Rudolph:

http://www.vlib.us/brugsch/chapter7.html     (Scroll down a bit)

Excerpts:
Quote
A special feature which I discovered with real pleasure in the character of the Crown Prince, and found confirmed daily, was the simplicity of his manners and expressing no wants, a rare quality of the great ones of the earth.

Quote
In his conversation the Crown Prince displayed intelligence, keenness and wit. At the same time, he maintained a calm which had to impress even the older man. When he found himself in official company, he suddenly changed his nature as though by magic; his entire bearing showed a stiff formality which otherwise was not at all characteristic of him.

Quote
Following a handwritten invitation of my princely patron, I took up my abode for a few weeks in the Prague castle, whereby I had the honor to have daily contact with the noble princely couple. In this way, I had the opportunity to learn to know both in their domestic life and to admire the cordiality of their mutual relations.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 28, 2010, 11:59:29 PM
Quote
..................because Russian soldiers had disturbed the remains of the young Baroness Maria Vetsera, looking for jewels, her body was ordered exhumed, and the pathologists were unable to find evidence of a bullet wound in her skull. That led to exhuming Rudolph, and he showed no evidence of being shot either. [The pistol recovered at the time of the incident, all six rounds fired, did not belong to the Crown Prince.] Instead, according to recent reports, both died of blunt force trauma, with evidence that they attempted to defend themselves with their arms and hands against the blows which killed them.
http://www.eurohistory.com/mayerling.html

This is the 1st time I've heard that Rudolph was also exhumed & I have no access to the eurohistory.com site.   Was that a misprint?

http://www0.epinions.com/content_246576615044
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on November 29, 2010, 07:58:35 AM
Hmmm.... This would work fine with the  theory that they were assassinated. However, can we verify the fact that Rudolf also was exhumed? I have not read it in any book and the Habsburgs never allowed it... As far as we know.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on November 30, 2010, 08:26:30 PM
Here's something about reading faces that can be quite entertaining and it works a lot of the time.   The right side is thought to be the socialized/controlled/acting side and the left side is the real/reacting/uncontrolled side.  It's a little hard to get any reading from a photo taken at an angle, so this is about the only straight-on one I could find for Rudolph:

Right click -- select view image -- then click on plus signal to enlarge:

(http://oi56.tinypic.com/1zd9j85.jpg)

The dichotomy of the images suggests a strong will and discipline by Rudolph.  

The left side also indicates a little dopey doper maybe, but from best I can tell from other photos, this was not his usual state.  It could be as Princess Catharine Radziwill claims in her "The Austrian Court from Within", that Mary Vetsera's "Oriental Methods" were actually some kind of Love Potion with which she was plying Rudolph to control him.  

Other than morphine and opium, amphetamines had just been synthesized a couple years before in 1887 Germany which had aphrodisiac powers along with inducing occasional psychotic breaks.


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 01, 2010, 05:39:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz_1w8OHDnU

Here's a recent video -- There seems to be a shortage of videos on this subject that aren't opera or ballet.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 03, 2010, 07:48:03 AM
Ballet; Opera? Musical, yes.... Guilty; even though there are vid's of mine with a popsong too though. 'Lostsplendor' is actually a friend of mine:p I haven't posted anything in months... Though I've got several projects on my sleeve.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 03, 2010, 08:26:05 AM
Oooooh!!  You do vids?   What's your name on youtube?  Lostsplendor did a great job -- it'd be wonderful to see more like that. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 03, 2010, 08:37:53 AM
i have serious conflicts with storical videos with modern soundtrack,, i must say. But this one is well done ( at least all the montage of images and astuff cause i heard the two first seconds and then i turned off the music)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 03, 2010, 10:29:28 AM
Why so Katenka?   I love royal photos -- especially the ones assigned to history since they were all such great actors, and I love all kinds of music (except for rap and opera) so it seems a natural combination.   It's all in the timing and some of them are superb. 

What I have a serious conflict with are the movies that distort the history and characters, for example Catherine Deneuve as Mary Vetsera is truly painful to watch and Charles Boyer as Rudolph was equally as bad. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 03, 2010, 10:33:59 AM
Because i dont like it. i like all kind of music too but some modern tunes with antique royal videos dont mix well to me.

I rather see the video with no music at all to not screw it all.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 03, 2010, 12:13:15 PM
Yup, I do video's... Whenever I work with pictures I tend to use instrumental music. There's one on Rudolf, several on the R'ovs and some on the way about Mayerling, Crown Princess Stephanie, Mary Vetsera and Empress Elisabeth... Don't know when I'll be able to finish though. Otherwise I use movies and series, fixing them with musical, pop, rock(nothing terribly heave though) and crossover(which is a crossover of vocal/classic/ballad/opera/pop/musical)... I'm quite versatile with music. And thus, I've done several with movies about Mayerling or other historical events.

My main vidding-channel is 'EsIstNurLiebe'. But we're straying our topic:p
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 03, 2010, 12:31:08 PM
EsIstNurLiebe WOW.   I know it's off-topic so one last comment:   Your "Crown Prince - Before the Dawn" is absolutely exquisite. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 03, 2010, 01:15:06 PM
Thank you... It was my first video with The Crown Prince too. I'd say, give me a friends add, if you like:p It's hard to find 'fans' out there, especially of historical series etc... But thanks.

And now, let's get on to solving a mystery...:p
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 03, 2010, 09:47:45 PM
I do apologize Katenka -- I suppose that video does have some raunchy phrases.   Ignoring those however still makes for an excellent video and I suspect the romance between Rudolph and Stephanie, even if they were caught in a bad romance, is historically more accurate than the "pimping" of Mary Vetsera as romance.
---------------------------------------------

And now, let's get on to trying to solve a mystery...:p

Rudolph wasn't always Schöner Bube..........sometimes he looked more gawky and geeky than handsome.  The shrewd but caustic observer
Princess Catharine Radziwill in "The Austrian Court from Within"  knew Rudolph during his early 20s and wrote that he was ~~ decidedly ugly but
eminently attractive.  She also said that he refused to dance at the various balls given for him before he married Stephanie since he said he
didn't want anyone speculating about his romantic life.  

(http://oi51.tinypic.com/20k3lgz.jpg)

This doesn't sound like the makings of the great libertine Rudolph was suppose to be.  In fact Bombelles was assigned to Rudolph specifically
to make him more a "man of the world" since the not so good-looking Rudolph was more thrilled about science and politics than women, and
that could be most inconvenient to the camarilla assigned to maintaining the Status Quo of the monarchy.

(http://oi53.tinypic.com/34ye1vt.jpg)

As Rudolph grew older he became much better looking -- or perhaps he learned better how to be a master of disguise for photos.  Certainly in his later years all I've ever seen in his photos is a smooth cool charm that betrays no emotion.  However, in the photos here taken of the teenage Rudolph, he shows an
astonishing level of anger and impulsivity.  I can only describe this combination of above photos as giving the impression of dangerous.   Perhaps this is what his mother saw when she described Rudolph as dangerous, and she was suppose to know him better than anyone else.  Marie Larisch realized way to late, at least by the time she wrote her memoirs 25 yrs after Mayerling that she had been playing with fire.  Additionally, Fritz Judtmann in "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend" wrote that Empress Eugénie had related how Empress Elizabeth also described her son as dangerous and unpredictable.

Given the fact that Marie Larisch was usually in financial straits from gambling (Police reports from Krauss in Das Mayerling Original), she was most likely blackmailing Rudolph for money.   Now the next question is with what (information) was she blackmailing Rudolph?  Interestingly enough, Francis Henry Gribble in his excellent book "The Life of the Emperor Francis Joseph" 1914, comes to a similar conclusion by a different method -- that Mary Vetsera was without a doubt blackmailing Rudolph.   But then Gribble speculates the source for this blackmail was that at sometime when drinking too much, Rudolph must have revealed to Mary Vetsera his plans of some coup for Hungarian Independence and promised to divorce Stephanie so he could marry again and crown Mary Vetsera as Queen of Hungary.  

There's a couple problems I have with Gribble's theory.   1)  By this time, Rudolph had become so accustomed to constant surveillance that he was extraordinarily careful about keeping his secrets private and covering his tracks.  He was paranoid -- and with good reason.  (see "My Life and History" by Berta Szeps).  There was no way he'd reveal such sensitive information to a young girl still under the control, at least in part, of people of questionable character.  2)  The entire Hungarian conspiracy was probably a red herring convenient for a lot of people including the imperial court.  One of the problems with this is that the 2 main proposed conspirators, Stephan (Pista) Count Karóly and Samuel Count Teleki von Szék, were nowhere near Mayerling that night as shown by telegrams (Fritz Judtmann in "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend") and both remained on relatively good terms with the Emperor.  Similarly the suggestion by Larisch as well as certain court officials that it was John Orth who killed Rudolph because of some Hungarian conspiracy was again shown to be in error by Judtmann who displayed the telegram of condolence sent by Orth in his own handwriting from hundreds of miles away from Mayerling the afternoon of the deaths.

So by a process of attrition, with what are we left as fodder for an effective blackmail?  Keep in mind this must somehow involve Mary Vetsera.

Going back many years to when Rudolph was age 12 or 13, why was Heléne Vetsera, a sophisticated and married woman in her mid 20s, in hot pursuit of him -- a rather geeky and not very good looking boy who had other passions?  There's only one answer to that:  she was up to no-good with diabolical cunning.  But had the chickens finally come home to roost?  Remember in an earlier post in part 1 where it was related how in "Francis Joseph and his Court: from the Memoirs of Count Roger de Rességuier", the Emperor was carrying on affairs simultaneously with both Heléne Baltazzi and her younger sister, and each sister was led to believe they were his one and only mistress.   When they found out the truth, the younger sister drowned herself in the Danube and Heléne was quickly married to a newly created baron.  This experience did leave plenty of room for intent and plans of revenge, and what more effective plan than to evolve control over the vulnerable young son of the libertine Emperor?  

Rességuier was a child at the time of Mayerling and his mother was a lady of the court and his father was court chamberlain to Franz Joseph, so he wrote about what he heard.   One of his mother's friends was the unfortunate Countess Anastasia Wimpffen who accompanied Mary Vetsera to Mayerling on her last trip and who also died shortly afterward.  A Rességuier also married one of the sons of Archduchess Marie Valerie, but I'm not sure of the connection -- maybe a sister or cousin?

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 03, 2010, 09:48:48 PM
The success of Heléne Vetsera in seducing the young Rudolph was for all intents and purposes confirmed by Countess Festetics, a lady-in-waiting to the Empress, according to Joan Haslip in "The Lonely Empress".   What leverage!  This increased 100-fold when the "little Vetsera" as Rudolph referred to Mary, was born during this time.  

A profitable point of view must have just fallen into place for both Marie Larisch and Heléne Vetsera when they became close as a result of Larisch's affair with one of Heléne's brothers and also because of their shared and bitter resentment of  the Emperor by one and of the Empress by the other as well as the desperate need by both women for money.  Putting the plan into action involved first the effective sabotage of the marriage between Stephanie and Rudolph, and they were most certainly helped in this aim by many others, probably including unwittingly the Empress herself who thought Rudolph needed some hygienic countess as was the custom in those days.  Stephanie was bombarded with tales of Rudolph's "misdeeds", and he was stressed, distracted and ultimately frustrated in trying to explain himself.  Next the trap was set for his seduction by an experienced coquette.  

In the days before DNA testing or blood tests, paternity was usually assumed to be that of the lawful husband, and that's how it was probably left for many years, and that may have been the truth.  Of course a mother could always be expected to have some authority on claims as to who the natural father really was and if Helene Vetsera chose to use this ace up her sleeve against Rudolph, it would be no less than a political catastrophe to tell the world he was having an affair with his own daughter.  Rudolph was not the kind of man to take this lying down, and now the stage is set for the explosion that finally occurred at Mayerling.  

(http://oi51.tinypic.com/2mqrayp.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 04, 2010, 04:59:30 PM
I thought that Elisabeth reprimanded Helene on her courting the young heir.... And I don't believe that a teenage boy would concieve a child with a much older woman, atleast not in those days... It's too much. And Rudolf and Mary certainly weren't the romantic couple as they are portrayed to be, yet there was something that bound and killed them. Also, we must not forget Mary's fascination for Rudolf and the things she wrote.... Would she make all that up? Of course it is possible she did, either by conspiring with Rudolf and creating a web, to hide her own motivations for being with Rudolf or because she really believed Rudolf loved her so that he was willing to die for her(while it was actually she who, by the look of things, was willing to die for/with him).
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 05, 2010, 03:13:44 PM

Agreed, it is too much.  For many reasons I don't believe Rudolph was the father of Mary Vetsera.   However, that is not the point.   What is important is did someone have the motive, means and opportunity to start a whisper campaign that would have destroyed Rudolph politically?  Someone with a reputation for being ambitious and cunning?  The answer to all 3 questions is yes.

1) Motive:   Yes,  Heléne Vetsera had motive for revenge if Franz Joseph had been two-timing her with her sister who subsequently killed herself according to Count Roger de Rességuier who has reasonable credibility.  Furthermore, Heléne Vetsera was in financial trouble according to Marie Larisch in "My Past" and also by evidence of her later financial instability after Mayerling.

2)   Means:  Yes, it was established by at least 2 independent sources that Heléne Vetsera and Rudolph had some kind of romantic liaison, and a child was born during this time.  Neither of Rudolph's parents seemed to mind this interlude.  It was Countess Festetics, lady-in-waiting to the Empress, who disapproved according to "The Lonely Empress".   The Empress also reportedly told Marie Larisch in "My Past" that Heléne Vetsera had been very kind to Rudolph when his thoughts first turned to love, which doesn't sound much like disapproval. 

3)  Opportunity:  Yes.  Years later, it was common knowledge that Rudolph was having an affair with the above mentioned child of Heléne Vetsera.

Finally, one has to ask why both the Emperor and Empress were so anxious for Rudolph to end his affair with Mary Vetsera when they winked at or ignored all of his reported affairs with other women?  Does anyone remember any reports of pressure on Rudolph to give up Mitzi Casper for example?  Rudolph's ADC in "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolph" claimed that the Emperor and Empress visited Rudolph many times reminding him to give up his affair with Mary Vetsera because it gave too much ammunition to his enemies.  Added to this milieu was the well-known newspaper war during the last months of Rudoph's life between him and Wilhelm II about who was really the most debauched (Frederic Morton in "A Nervous Splendor"). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad8PoqaFK-c&feature=related
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 05, 2010, 04:07:06 PM
Someone should do a full scale investigation:p And what with the papers that were held by the Taaffe Family? The chance they still exist is slimm with the fire and Taafe's vow to the emperor to keep the Mayerling Episode as secret as possible. The final question is what is it that must remain hidden.... And what has Mary Vetsera to do with it.

I remember reading that Mary had an abortion, that Larisch was in on the scheme, just as Rudolf... It was in a Dutch book(had Rudolf's will and inventory too), someone who claimed he saw the papers - a grand-child of Taaffe, if I recall correctly - said that the papers claimed Mary was with child and that there was an abortion that went wrong.. Thus Rudolf could not live with the shame and choose death. I find this impossible to believe, however it is a fascinating account of events.

It was called "Het Mayerling Drama" by S. Van Der Werf.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 06, 2010, 11:37:36 AM
Oh Pookah!  You would have had to mention those blasted Taaffe papers -- an exercise in frustration ;)  They were pursued in exhaustive detail by Fritz Judtmann in "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend" who went after them like a blood hound.  His book sounds similar to your Dutch book. 

I'm going to relate what I remember off the top of my memory since I don't want to get too stuck in that quagmire again.  Judtmann followed the official trail of the Taaffe papers from when the Austrian premier Eduard Taaffe died in 1895 and left them to his son, Heinrich Taaffe, until the trail finally went cold in the late 1960s when his grandson, Edward Taaffe, died unexpectedly in Ireland with no direct heirs. 

What I found most interesting about the tale of the Taaffe papers is in how they demonstrate how to do an Austrian cover up, or rather cover-out, in how to confuse and confound by the dissemination of false information in an endless array of miss-clues.  For the first few years the son Heinrich Taaffe seemed to take little notice of the Taaffe papers, and then he started to make official documents as to their location -- to the national archives, to the Vatican, to other places............they all proved false, or some location would have reported only empty envelopes instead of the real papers.  Then he started to report the papers as destroyed, then they would turn up several years later, and then another report of them as having all burned, and then they would show up again in another official report several years later.  My guess is Heinrich Taaffe was probably inundated with 100s of requests for information about the Taaffe papers, hence the constant move and false leads.

Then sometime in the 1910s, he offered to let the granddaughter of  Baron Krauss, Austrian Police Chief at the time of Mayerling, read the papers -- before he planned to burn them all, or so he claimed.  This granddaughter, a Countess Wassilko, was a cousin of Heinrich Taaffe's wife. Countess Wassilko stayed up all night and read them all and since she was not asked to keep them a secret, she made a report to the media -- referred to as the Wassilko Protocol.  At the time it was thought this was Heinrich Taaffe's way of getting around his promise to keep the papers secret -- by letting someone else report on the big secrets.  Judtmann came to the conclusion that what the Krauss granddaughter read were just bogus papers, again designed to mislead and confuse.  After Heinrich Taaffe died, Judtmann talked with his widow who told him that keeping the Taaffe papers secret and intact was the single most important thing in her husband's life and he never even let her read them, so it is unlikely he let anyone else read the real papers.

The Wassilko Protocol is interesting though in that it gives a more plausible scenario even though it's mostly a rehash of already well-known rumors.  The first thing I noticed about her report was that the bodies were discovered upstairs, which agrees with other credible sources but contradicts the claims of both Hoyos and Loschek.  (more on that in some later post)  Then she said a police surgeon did autopsies on both bodies, which disagrees with the official position of one autopsy done on Rudolf by court physicians.  She said these autopsy reports showed Mary Vetsera was killed by a glancing shot to the carotid artery so she bled to death.  Then Rudolf shot himself through the mouth, thereby explaining the large exit wound on the top side of his head.   This suggests to me that the aim of this Wassilko Protocol was to show that Mary Vetsera was killed by accident and then Rudolf killed himself in remorse.  She also reported the police autopsy claimed Mary Vetsera was 3 to 5 months pregnant........but nothing about any botched abortion attempt.

What makes this a more plausible scenario than the official position is that it is a well-known fact that Rudolph was often waving a gun around and was careless with it.   He accidentally shot himself in the hand one time and his mother nursed him back to health over weeks/months (The Lonely Empress).  Another time, Rudolph would have (accidentally) shot his father except that one of the Emperor's aids moved to protect the Emperor at the last second and he was shot in the arm instead.  The Emperor was so angry with Rudolph over this incident that he didn't speak to him for weeks, and it was again left to the Empress to make peace between her husband and son. 

------------------------------

Then in 1929 Edward Taaffe inherited the Taaffe Secrets from his father and from remarks he made in his correspondence with Fritz Judtmann, it can be concluded that the Wasilko Protocol as well as the official version were only more diversions from the truth.  As has been stated so often by others, he wrote to Judtmann:  "It is, however, entirely correct that I said what my father publicly stated before me -- the circumstances of the Mayerling affair were far more frightful than was imagined."

(http://oi54.tinypic.com/mjpcav.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 08, 2010, 12:11:21 PM
...........................a little more on the 3rd Taaffe before getting into the gruesome details.   When the author Fritz Judtmann was corresponding with Taaffe in the mid 1960s, he told him that he still could not tell him anything about the papers although he was sorry about that since Judtmann was the first one he encountered who wanted to solve the mystery for purely scholarly purposes.   Hundreds of other people had begged or tried to trap or trick him into revealing the facts, either from curiosity or in order to make capital.  William Randolph Hearst had even offered him $2.5 million for information on the Taaffe papers.  Edward Taaffe said he had to refuse all because these were not his secrets to reveal, but he was merely keeping them in the capacity of trustee.  

The next question is -- if not for the name and reputation of the Taaffe family, then for whom were these secrets so meticulously kept?  This would seem to be answered by Baron von Mitis who claimed to see at least some version of the Taafee papers.  In his book "The Life of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Habsburg, with letters and documents found among his effects" Mitis states that:

Quote
The contemporaries of the tragedy of 1889, above all the family of the unfortunate Habsburg Prince, still enjoy the right of all living persons and are entitled to receive from an enlightened age that protection of their persons to which any other citizen of the world lays claim.  It cannot therefore be part of the purpose of the present investigations to illuminate the problem in all directions.

So it would seem at least up until the mid 1960s, the Habsburg family still wanted the events at Mayerling to be kept secret.  By this time both Stephanie and Erzi and Rudolph's sisters were dead, so that leaves maybe some of Rudolph's grandchildren and/or the Empress Zita and her family.  Rudolph's oldest grandchild, Prince Franz Joseph zu Windisch-Grätz, collaborated in the book, "The Mayerling Murders" where Wilhelm II, Otto Bismarck and the Catholic Church were blamed for the deaths at Mayerling.   Empress Zita accused Georges Clemenceau, a prime minister of France, as the one responsible.  

Thus it would seem that one or the other or both still wanted the real events at Mayerling to be kept secret, but they were willing to blame other public figures for these deaths with only weak circumstantial evidence to back up their claims?  It's difficult to even imagine that what could have happened at Mayerling would be so bad it could interfere with some beatification process a 100 years later!  

  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 08, 2010, 03:46:07 PM
I think that the Habsburg Family still wants to keep these events a secret... I've always wondere why. What is it that is more gruesome than the death of Europe's enlightened Prince and his young mistress....  And what has that mistress(Mary ofcourse) actually to do with all of it? I think she and Rudolf deserve to be cleared from blame(atleast if such is possible)... I still wonder why it is all these letters of Mary indicating something would happen, and their final letters, and Rudolf's will(in which he wrote that all letters from him and Mary, found in his quarters, should be burned). Could that all have been a cover-up?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: violetta on December 11, 2010, 10:44:07 AM
rudolf at  3

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/crownprincerudolf1.jpg)


at 10

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/453px-Kronprinz_Rudolf_mit_10_Jahren.jpg)

a few more pictures

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/365px-Rudolfaustria1858-21.jpg)

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/484px-Rudolf_1861.jpg)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 11, 2010, 02:49:43 PM
Thank you Violetta for all the photos of the cute little Rudolph   ;D

I think that the Habsburg Family still wants to keep these events a secret... I've always wondered why................................I think she and Rudolf deserve to be cleared from blame (at least if such is possible).....

Of course the Habsburg Family still want to keep the events at Mayerling secret since the alternative says a lot worse about Rudolph.  I meant to say in my last post, that although there is compelling circumstantial evidence that Prussia may have been involved in Rudolph's death, the actual evidence is weak.  As could be expected, a state-sponsored killing wouldn't leave much evidence behind.

It seems though that someone certainly took their cues from the death 3 years earlier of Ludwig II of Bavaria.  Even though the doctors who declared him totally insane had never even met him, the label has remained -- as it has for Rudolph.   

Here's what his real doctor who knew Ludwig II from birth had to say about it:

(http://oi54.tinypic.com/2dlj051.jpg)

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F00B17F8355A1A738DDDAF0994DE405B8684F0D3

Sometimes there is a fine line between being stark raving mad or merely a little eccentric, and the problem is that the difference in potential is little understood, even today.  So someone can seem a little off at time, or have a "Bavarian Kink" as was noticed by many for Rudolph, and from there it's an easy jump, even by those who knew and loved him, to assume he might have the potential to "snap" and become a maniacal /psychotic killer totally devoid of reason. 

It would probably be hard for most of us / anyone to easily defend against some accusation of insanity.  It should be remembered though that all the labels of insanity applied to Rudolph were applied after Mayerling by those trying to make sense out of something which made no sense.

From everything I've read up to this point, I'm starting to believe it was a cover-up of a cover-up, making it extraordinarily complicated to understand.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 11, 2010, 05:33:27 PM
Well.... I think the movie 'Le Secret De Mayerling' might be closer to the truth then we expect, and that is that Rudolf and Mary were assassinated.... Anything is possible, but those letters they wrote, and those found, that's what bothers me... Who would go to the lengths of fabricating all those? Anyhow, it was certainly no romantic story.... If Rudolf killed Mary he had his motives(maybe she herself did it?), maybe they were murdered, maybe Mary was even a part in a plan to kill Rudolf and herself killed in the process.... Though I find the last one a bit unlikely. But those letters, they trouble me the most, what is it with all the romance Mary is spreading? And she's mentioned a pact between her and Rudolf..... There has to be some base of truth in there.

And as for King Ludwig, another case I'm startled by, I don't think he was crazy... If he was then they should have given Elisabeth and Rudolf the same label. They just were different. What also wonders me is that Elisabeth was staying across the lake when Ludwig died... Was he able to reach her, did they plan on getting him out of custody... That is the theory a movie about Ludwig uses to explain the strange circumstances of his death.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Linnie on December 11, 2010, 05:37:22 PM
Does Austria have an access to information act? Has anyone ever tried to make a formal request to the Austrian Governement about all documents and information held regarding Crown Prince Rudolph death?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 12, 2010, 10:06:37 AM
Linnie -- it's not a question of access of all the information held by the Austrian Government.   Many authors have had full access and a definitive work of Mayerling written in 1930 entitled "The life of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Habsburg, with letters and documents found among his effects" was by Baron von Mitis who was then head of the Austrian National Archives for many years.

The problem is so many of the critical papers about Mayerling have disappeared into private hands never to be seen again.  For example the Taaffe Papers which were the findings of the investigation immediately ordered by the Emperor are now probably in some unknown bank vault under some fictitious name somewhere in the world, put there by a man who died 40+ years ago.   

A large box of the police documents about the Mayerling events which disappeared from the National Archives was discovered in 1955 in the storage area of some German actor.  Who knows how they got there!?

..................Anything is possible, but those letters they wrote, and those found, that's what bothers me... Who would go to the lengths of fabricating all those? ...................................But those letters, they trouble me the most, what is it with all the romance Mary is spreading? And she's mentioned a pact between her and Rudolf..... There has to be some base of truth in there.

All the letters bother me too, but what I noticed most is there is not a single letter from Rudolph about this great romance -- they are all one-sided, all from Mary.  Further, forgeries were developed to a fine art back then.   That's one of the reasons for the common use of the sealing stamp with the messy wax -- to give some assurance the letter was not a forgery.

Here's a description of Mary Vetsera by Walburga, Lady Paget, wife of the English Ambassador to Austria at the time of Mayerling.  Lady Paget could be................perhaps considered a reflection of Austrian aristocracy thought at the time. 

Quote
The Crown Prince had for some months had a flirtation with Mdlle. Marie Vetsera, a pretty but very rapid girl.  It appears that this affair was promoted by Countess Larisch, the daughter of the Empress's eldest brother, who always puts me in mind of a man who keeps a circus............................I never liked her (Vetsera) on account of her flirtations with married men...............But how so silly a girl could have persuaded so clever a man as the Crown Prince of Austria to end his life in such a stupid, dirty, undignified, melodramatic way I cannot conceive.  I cannot see the logic..........It was not baffled love.  The fact is he was a maniac..............She always revolted me by her flirtations with such a man as Heini L. and Roman P., who could have only had one object............

Here's a photo of Lady Paget with her husband, Ambassador Augustus Paget: (taken from "Embassies of Other Days" 1923).  She kind of writes like she looks haha!

(http://oi56.tinypic.com/2vcyxcy.jpg)






Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 12, 2010, 04:03:56 PM
On account of Rudolf's letters.... He made clear in his will that all his letters to Mary, and hers to him, found in the Hofburg should be burned. This I remember clearly, as it was in "Het Drama Van Mayerling" and the author has printed his will, Mary's letters and his(found at Mayerling), it quotes Rudolf in his final letter to the Empress(on account of Countess Esterhazy? - she said that Rudolf was in a strange mood on all saints months earlier, that he too would be dead soon... What about this?), it quotes Mary's earlier letters, has an inventory of Rudolf's belongings - at the Hofburg, Laxenburg and Mayerling -, so we see supposedly what of Mary's belonging's were found. And in Rudolf's will, found at the Hofburg, he expressed the wish that all letters in the vault from both him and Mary should be burned(thus this would work with the pact, that they made arrangements, making sure traces of whatever went on would vanis....) The question is why would Rudolf and Mary want this. If their story would be a tragic romance, what's the harm in this becoming common knowledge... A political motive?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 13, 2010, 03:41:31 AM
(on account of Countess Esterhazy? - she said that Rudolf was in a strange mood on all saints months earlier, that he too would be dead soon... What about this
Had to be Countess Festetics, if I'm correct....
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 13, 2010, 01:17:07 PM
Below are some links to the farewell letters taken from "Mayerling: the Facts Behind the Legend".   Rudolph asked that the letters of Countess Larisch and the little Vetsera be destroyed -- nothing said about his own letters.  Maybe the letters in his desk in the Turkish Room in Vienna showed something other than a tragic romance and that is why they were to be destroyed?

If Rudolph was in a strange mood months earlier and predicted his own death -- it might have been that he'd heard from multiple sources that there was a serious plot forming to kill him.  

None of these suicide letters seem authentic to me.  If someone takes the time to write a suicide letter, they typically want to make the reason clear.   There's nothing like that in these.  The first thing I think of when reading that ~~his honor commands him to depart from this life, I wonder to whom goes the reward?  Is it the local Camarilla or Prussia, both of which believed the liberal and democratic ideals of Rudolph were a major threat to their existence.  


http://www.imageshugger.com/images/i6f0t4at1dybucaw2obc.jpg

2  
http://www.imageshugger.com/images/6409q34z7hkw443g6.jpg


http://www.imageshugger.com/images/p3jehttioqmyf2qjj8nn.jpg

4  
http://www.imageshugger.com/images/wql2zztdd2bzvh2olwdb.jpg


http://www.imageshugger.com/images/tz3o4eymqgc633g1l3fa.jpg

6
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2yu0if8.jpg
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 13, 2010, 01:40:25 PM
Mayerling: Facts Behind The Legend was one of the sources for "Het Drama Van Mayerling" and comparing the writings "Het Drama Van Mayerling" mostly copies "Mayerling: Facts Behind The Legend".... Wish I could read that book.

Well, as to why Rudolf wanted these letters destroyed... I have no idea. Also, as for Rudolf's letters to Mary... Maybe they were taken for the investigation after the tragedy, as I believe the Vetsera's little Palace/Mansion was searched in the days after("A Nervous Splendor" said this if I'm correct). Also, why did Helene go to the police claiming Mary was with Rudolf, that a letter from Mary was found claiming that she would float in the Dunaube within days. If only these letters could be photographed or something.

Well, I always believed there were sources working against Rudolf... Even his own father, who refused to see that his wife and their only son were more alike than he was with both of them, but would Franz really order Rudolf's "suicide"? That's too far-fetched, as for the Prussians and the Camarilla, they are a possible threat. And I find the Suicide notes quite strange too. Mary's letters are clear. Her reason was loving Rudolf, yet was she lured into it or did she have an alternate motive.... Or did anyone have one for framing her, and Rudolf, as for Rudolf... The letters indicate that Rudolf was in a terrible mental state and that something terrible had occured... Why else would only his death save his honor?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 15, 2010, 09:24:43 AM
...........................Also, as for Rudolf's letters to Mary... Maybe they were taken for the investigation after the tragedy.......................................

Well, I always believed there were sources working against Rudolf... Even his own father, who refused to see that his wife and their only son were more alike than he was with both of them, but would Franz really order Rudolf's "suicide"? ..................................


None of Rudolf's letters to Mary have ever surfaced since Marie Larisch always retrieved them as soon as Vetsera read them.  I suppose Rudolf insisted on this since he didn't trust the Vetseras to remain discreet.  

There were some who wanted it to look like there was total estrangement between Rudolph and his father, but I doubt it -- too much evidence to the contrary.

Here's a nice photo I don't recall seeing before of Rudolph following his parents.   Right click to select 'view image' and then the + sign to enlarge.

(http://oi56.tinypic.com/orjzgk.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 15, 2010, 11:23:21 AM
Well, no real pictures(if you don't count the ones taken with his mother in Venice when he was still a toddler)... Which is a pity.

As for Larisch retrieving the letters... Really? Is there a source for this, other than Larisch herself?

Well, Franz and Rudolf probably had some understanding, but relationships in Royal Families in those days were almost always strained. So I don't think it's different here.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 15, 2010, 12:16:02 PM
And this one

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/5044198124_5d88a73210_b.jpg)

Not following Elisabeth but sitting on her lap.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 15, 2010, 12:49:03 PM
Here's the source and below that is the citation given from this source.   It would seem Mary Vetsera might have kept a copy/ies of Rudolph's letter/s -- probably written in her own hand since they didn't have ready copiers back then.
-------------------------------------------------------------

From Mayerling to Sarajevo
Author(s): Rudolph Binion  Source: The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 47, No. 2 (Jun., 1975), pp. 280-316

Quote
On the one hand, Mary could keep no secrets from Larisch. Early along, Mary remarked to her friend abroad upon sending her a copy of a letter in which Rudolf declared that "he could not live without her and would go mad if he might no longer see her," that she would have sent an original except that
Marie takes all his letters right back again. . ."160

160 Vetsera. p. 24, cf. p. 60-

Helene Vetsera, Das Drama von Mayerling D er Tod des Kronprinzen Rudolf u.
der Baronesse Mary Vetsera. Gemeinsamer verabredeter Tod. Die Denkschrift der
Baronin-Mutter Helene Vetsera (lleichenberg, 1921)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 15, 2010, 02:02:28 PM
That does explain why there are no letters from Rudolf himself... But if Rudolf really wrote that it would go along with what Mary had written to others, about their affaire, yet Rudolf might have been decieving her or she could even have made it up herself.... But why?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 15, 2010, 05:57:10 PM
Judtmann claimed to see some telegrams from Rudolph to Mary, but he didn't show any images.   However, he did say it seemed by the wording that Rudolph was very carefully trying to put Mary off him.................that's one of the reasons I suspected some sort of blackmail -- perhaps through her and not by her.

Here's another drawing unfortunately, but I like it anyway.   Rudolph was doing ~ 40 audiences per day up until Mayerling, so that does put a question mark on how sick and wasted he really was -- especially since those closest to him denied that he was having any serious health issues.

(http://oi56.tinypic.com/dq4o44.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 16, 2010, 01:57:50 PM
Well, we must also keep in mind that a depression not always shows in psychical illness.... You don't always notice the signs. And Rudolf certainly had a tendency towards melancholy and depression. And there are claims that he seemed tired and such during the last months, but nothing about a real illness - if you don't count in the STD, which in those days was not uncommon in a High Rank(remember that it is highly possible FJ transmitted one to Elisabeth and that Rudolf himself certainly infected his wife)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 16, 2010, 10:15:26 PM
Anyway, back to the cause of Rudolph’s death………………………..The following material came mostly from Bismarck’s Reflections & Reminiscences, Mayerling Murders, Secrets of the Hohenzollerns and Diplomatic Mysteries.

Otto Eduard Leopold von Bismarck, Graf von Bismarck-Schönhausen (1815-1898)

Bismarck was ambitious to establish Prussia's leadership within Germany and eliminate the influence of Austria. He secured Austria's support for his successful war against Denmark then, in 1866, went to war against Austria and its allies (the Seven Weeks' War), his victory forcing Austria out of the German Bund and unifying the northern German states into the North German Confederation under his own chancellorship in 1867. He then defeated France, under Napoleon III, in the Franco-Prussian War 1870–71, proclaimed the German Empire in 1871, and annexed Alsace-Lorraine. He tried to secure his work by the Triple Alliance in 1881 with Austria and Italy but ran into difficulties at home with the Roman Catholic Church and the socialist movement and was forced to resign by Wilhelm II on 18 March 1890.

(http://oi56.tinypic.com/zkiwig.jpg)


It all came back to Bismarck, the blood and iron chancellor of the German Empire and the most effective leader since Napoleon.  Bismarck was a man of exceptional abilities -- highly intelligent with an iron will, resolve, pragmatism and persuasiveness but his greatest asset at least in carrying out his goals was a lack of conscience -- he had no scruples.  The Empress Frederick once wrote that Bismarck had no sense of right or wrong.

This was a man who was proud that he was able to cause the Franco-Prussian War of 1870 through forgery -- by rewriting the first Emperor William's peace-bringing dispatch into a crude call for war.  His lack of any moral sense showed in an absence of respect for human life.  People died when they got in his way.  Bismarck once said: "  I have had singular good luck in seeing the people who stood most in my way disappear at just the right time." It was fatal—to be an enemy of Bismarck.

Add to this mix the quick witted and outspoken Crown Prince Rudolph, who unlike his father had never forgiven or forgotten the Austrian defeat at the battle of Königgrätz when he was 8 years old.  Rudolph was a determined enemy of Prussia and Bismarck but at the same time, he showed no aversion to Russia and he paraded his love for France and England in his "Black and Yellow" journal as he called it, perhaps more out of wish to annoy Bismarck than anything else.

In many articles, Rudolph attacked the alliance Austria was forced to make with the new German power.  His bitter words for Bismarck read that when his day should come, it would give way to new European alliances.  He wrote, "The actual alliance is necessary for the moment, and under the circumstances, it was a wise policy to make.  Some day a wiser policy will unmake it".  There is a record of the temper in which Bismarck read this defiance.  The possibility of an alliance between Austria and France once Rudolph came to the throne haunted Bismarck at least 10 years before Rudolph's death according to letters from Bismarck to his son.  The thought of Austria and France in league with Russia and/or the Roman Curia became a nightmare for Bismarck and so he riveted his eagle eye on the Crown Prince Rudolph.

So long as Rudolph lived and might reign, all the life work Bismarck had given to building a strong and expansive German Empire would fail. The victory won in the battle of Königgrätz had to be completed at Mayerling.

Nor was there any first thought of killing.  That would be premature, and Bismarck had the infinite patience of a wild animal stalking its prey and could easily take years to set up his plans if that was necessary.  Bismarck couldn't risk leaving Austria with a martyred national hero.  He would first have
to destroy Rudolph's reputation before having him killed. 

The diverse races of Austria were knit together by one common loyalty to the house of Hapsburg. Vaguely it went out to the old emperor playing his card games in the Hofburg.  There was also some loyalty to the old empress, busy as she was with her ghosts, cigarettes and Heine's poems. But the hope and strength of this loyalty went most of all to Rudolph.  The loyalty of Austria centered on him and laid all their hopes upon him.  He was the people's prince and in return loved his country.   

Like all other great plans, Bismarck's project for dismembering Rudolph was simple -- he sent his Golden Cavalry to the very heart of the old empire.  One could trace their hoof-marks to the very door of the royal palace.  Their noise was heard on the stone flags of the Ballplatz.  (The Ballplatz in Vienna was a little stone square on the side of the foreign office which swarm with unscrupulous, purchasable men, idle aristocrats and " little brothers of the rich".)  Many a time the keen charge of the golden gulden hit its mark.  His mercenaries -- agents, spies and double spies were busy in every province and at every level of society.

Bismarck's organization in Austria was indefinite and powerful, and not all of these hacks were hired with money.  Ambition bought some. Others were sincere patriots, seeing in the downfall of Austria an opportunity for the freedom of a new Hungary or the creation of a new Slavic empire......................................

As Rudolph said to Moritz Szeps when the general distribution of the latter's paper was prohibited:  "We have been driven into darkness...........and it's partly the work of the Jesuits, who are closely connected with all the most influential members of the Imperial family.  I am not allowed to move, and I have grown so distrustful of everybody around me that life is becoming torture.  Soon I won't even trust old Nehammaer (his oldest and most devoted servant)."  What Rudolph didn't realize at this time is that it was Bismarck who had Szep's paper shut down knowing that Rudolph frequently wrote articles for it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 16, 2010, 10:17:13 PM
There were weak points to Rudolph's circumstances to which Bismarck could hack away.   I'm not sure how much of Rudolph's folly was real and how much was from Bismarck's treachery, but always a pleasure-loving man who likes to associate with all kinds is vulnerable.  Lord Salisbury wrote to an ambassador saying of the German Chancellor Bismarck:  “He has a vast corrupt influence over the press and can give enormous circulation to slanders.”

In addition to a steady campaign of outright slander, here are some examples in Rudolph's life that gave vent to Bismarck's ability to further malign Rudolph:

1--One of the claims was that Rudolph was a liberal in theory only, not in practice.
Of course this statement could be made about anyone born and raised in an imperial family regardless of their social beliefs.

2--Bismarck also had help in the nature of Rudolph's wife.  Due to her unfortunate relationship with her dreadful father, she had a small reservoir of trust for any man, so when the whispers of Rudolph's many dalliances (real or imagined?) were duly reported to her, the domestic bliss to which Rudolph often referred when speaking of his marriage in the early years ended.  Stephanie also likedto make all her thoughts public which was another plus for Bismarck’s aims.  Given these circumstances, one cannot even be sure what Stephanie said was true, or if she even knew what the truth was.
 
3--Another fact of Rudolph's life made full use by Bismarck -- especially in the explanation of his death -- was the taint of the famous Bavarian madness in his blood by which any potential extreme behavior can be attributed to Rudolph at no great surprise to anyone.

By 1888, time was running out for Bismarck.  Talk of revanche by France and more war talk from England made it clear that Germany had to secure its rear before it became involved in another war.   Bismarck had become so paranoid about a possible accession of Rudolph that early one morning in November 1888, he even showed up without warning at Schloss Laxenburg to confirm whether or not the rumor was true that Franz Joseph planned to abdicate in favor of his son.
--------------------------------------------------

Two important figures stand out in the undistinguished crowd recruited by Bismarck's Golden Calvary -- the most notable was Philip of Coburg. This sinister man was a brother-in-law of Rudolph, married to Princess Louise, sister of Stephanie.   Many a time Louise would flee back to Belgium with both eyes not only red from crying, but also black and blue.   Her wretched father always sent her back to her abusive husband.  Finally when she summoned the courage to leave him, she made the mistake of asking him for money.   He gave her forged bills of sale for some of her sister's jewels and as a result, Louise and her lover were charged with criminal theft and she was confined to an insane asylum for 8 years instead of jail, and her lover was thrown into jail.  Philip of Coburg was also close to his brother, Ferdinand of Bulgaria who gave as little thought to beating his wife as he did ordering an assassination, both of which he did with few, if any misgivings.

(http://oi52.tinypic.com/ei05lk.jpg)

The second figure fastened onto the Crown Prince was Count Josef Hoyos, an accomplished man of the world, a boon companion, and although his rank was high and he had fortune his wants always seemed to outrun his means. He was as ready as any other to take Prussian gold.  A Hoyos even married Bismarck's oldest son a couple years after Mayerling.   

(http://oi56.tinypic.com/28i2hra.jpg)

Another possibility was Mary Vetsera,—a woman with restless eyes and a bad reputation for being fast and easy in Vienna might also have been within this group, at least initially.  There are separate reports she was also involved romantically with both Philip of Coburg and Josef Hoyos at different times.

Even Mizzi Caspar had a lawyer friend named Florian Meissner who was a double agent in the pay of both Vienna and Berlin.  He reported Rudolph's activities not only to the local Austrian police but to the German Embassy as well.

On his final trip to Mayerling the Crown Prince went alone and many believe that no friend of his or true man ever saw him alive again. 

It is known that Philip of Coburg, Hoyos, and a Baltazzi were at Mayerling along with Vetsera and probably the German agent woman who accompanied her, but there were probably many others at Mayerling by the last night.

Neither the first night nor the next day was the prince seen. Then came the last night and outside, the lackeys drowsed among the horses. It was nearly midnight when they heard shouting within and pistol shots. Having looked in for a moment, they fled away, shrieking. They had seen what it is
not well for lowly men to see.

Rudolph received a mortal wound from the titanic force of a champagne bottle crashing into his brain.    They carried him to an upstairs bedroom where he survived unconscious for many hours.  Many others died that night -- possibly from getting in the line of fire or to eliminate witnesses.

That was all.  Dawn arrived and the court quickly cast a veil of royal lies over the deaths.  Bismarck telegraphed his sympathy.

But what did Philip of Coburg, Count Hoyos and Loschek tell the Emperor, and why was the court willing to accept the obvious inconsistencies and discrepancies in their stories?

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 17, 2010, 03:08:07 PM
A fascinating story.... I never liked Bismarck. Not at all, he's too much of a fiend. The way he used the young Emperor Wilhelm for his own goals and the way he treated the Empress Dowager Victoria... Such a shame. And Wilhelm, vain and proud as he was, simply went along with him(leading all of Europe and the Ancient Empire's into ruin). In my eyes it is Wilhelm alone who carries the biggest part of the guilt for the destruction of Imperial Europe and only one man could have saved it, Rudolf, whereas the tragedy started to unfold years before the war itself: at the wedding of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert.

As for the above theory, fascinating it is.... I really would love to know if it's true, but it is possible. Bismarck always was one of my 'suspects' but why would the Habsburgs keep it a secret? Where they threatened by Bismarck and Wilhelm(I see him capable of this), did they know nothing at all or had some members of the Habsburg family a part in the tragedy. And why did Mary have to die? Was she an unwanted witness or simply a cover-up and explanation of why Rudolf died.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 18, 2010, 11:01:49 PM
I doubt the Habsburg family knew about the Bismarck explanation of Rudolph's death.  Naturally nobody at Mayerling would have wanted to tell them this.  However, I think the Habsburg family finally figured it out since the above Bismarck version is basically the same as that described in "The Mayerling Murders" on which Rudolph's oldest grandchild, Prince Franz Joseph of Windisch-Graetz (1904-1981) collaborated.

Another reason I think the Habsburgs didn't know about this was because too many of them said the "truth" was far worse than the official version of suicide, and a political assassination would not have been worse than a deranged man killing his mistress and then himself.  

Also remember the Taaffe papers were kept secret to protect the Habsburg family according to von Mitis/Taaffe and not to protect the Bismarck family or anyone else.

----------------------------------

I doubt Wilhelm II had anything to do with Rudolph's death.  There was a report of Wilhelm's reaction to Rudolph's death in one of his bios -- and it described him as agitated/upset/confused for hours.   He couldn't understand how it could have happened.  

But remember how the private secretary in "The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolph" said how his friend and double agent Koinoff had proof that Wilhelm II and the Papal Nuncio Galimberti were plotting Rudolph's death (he'd seen a letter he wasn't suppose to see, and also the forgeries of Rudolph's handwriting).  He told Rudolph about it, who just laughed it off.  Wilhelm II probably deliberately put out false rumors of an assassination plot against Rudolph just to annoy him as part of their little personal war games they'd been playing with each other for sometime.  Galimberti was so disconcerted by Rudolph's death that he started his own one-man investigation since he was convinced it was no suicide.  

Wilhelm was young at the time too -- age 30 -- and he was brash and confident enough to think he could beat Rudolph fair and square in public instead.  No, the death of Rudolph as it was done was the end play of an old man with far more attention to detail and experience than that of Wilhelm II.

Bismarck was dismissed by Wilhelm II a little over a year after Mayerling, in March 1890.  Bismarck said he had no idea when Wilhelm first got the idea he wanted to be rid of him, but Bismarck first became aware of it when Wilhelm II accused him of making important decisions on his own behind his back.

(http://oi54.tinypic.com/34q2pes.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on December 20, 2010, 12:41:13 PM
Only a coincidence might be that Wilhelm II dismissed Bismarck on Mar 19, 1890 which would have been Mary Vetsera's 19th birthday.   This takes on rich possibilites considering that Lady Paget in "Embassies of Other Days" wrote that one of the reasons for the bad blood between Rudolph and Wilhelm II was that they were fighting over the same woman.   (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked028.gif)

-------------------------------------------------

What did Prince Philipp of Coburg, Count Hoyos et.al  tell the Imperial Family about the deaths?  First Hoyos told them that Mary Vetsera had probably poisoned Rudolph, so the Imperial Court decided on an explanation of heart failure/apoplexy as a cause.  Then after the "truth" was more known, Hoyos generously offered to say that he accidentally shot Rudolph in a hunting accident and he was willing to take the blame and leave Austria.  I'm not sure since the court was going to do a cover up anyway, why they just didn't go with one of those possibilities.  The answer is probably along the line of that would have left Rudolph's reputation intact, and that was not the goal.  At some point the Emperor heard the "true story" of what happened at Mayerling -- something that was more awful than anyone could imagine and much worse than the secondary cover up of suicide.

There are several hints available about what this "awful truth" was.  The first comes from Philipp of Coburg's wife, Louise.   They were still married at the time, so it's reasonable to assume she might have heard something about her husband's version although Philipp of Coburg himself never made any statement other than that it was too horrible to discuss.

Here's an excerpt from a 1910 NYT article on what she said happened:

Quote
Imagine the scene of a shooting-box.  After a day of pleasure in the open air, five or six couples are supping by candle light, great lords and beautiful girls.  And the heady wines of Austria and of France have flowed too freely.  The supper has reached the point when it is about to turn into an orgy.  He who is visibly the master of the house is seated opposite a splendid girl.  Suddenly he says:  "It is La Vetsera who has the most beautiful neck!"  Thereupon, they all rise in anger, the girls being jealous and the grands seigneurs excited.

"What do you know about it?" one cries.  "Is it not because La Vetsera is the mistress of an archduke?"  another shouts. 

But he, Lord of them all, does not tolerate contradiction, and besides, his brain is heated with the wine that he has drunk.  He looks imperiously at his beautiful mistress, who is seated opposite him, and gives her this order:  "Show them your neck!"   She cries, "Rudolph, you are mad!  mad!"

The archduke has always been eccentric and now he can no longer control himself.  He leans across the table and tears the corsage down. 

The young woman, thus insulted, also loses her head.  She takes up her glass which is half full, and flings it across the table at the face of her insulter.  The glass is broken and a little blood flows.  The wounded man no longer knows where his is.  He fancies himself on a battlefield, or fighting a duel.  Automatically, he puts his hand to a pocket of his tunic.  He extends his arm over the tablecloth, fires, and La Vetsera falls. 

Who would dare to put the second act of the drama on the stage -- this tumult, this tablecloth swept away, these candles which are being overturned, these girls who rush forward to support a dying woman, these intoxicated revelers who dash upon this unconscious murderer in whom they no longer see anything but a murderer, until the last blow, dealt with a candlestick, crashes into the base of the skull?

Who dealt this blow, this supreme blow, of which the Archduke Rudolf of Austria died?  Everyone and nobody.  The chastisement of the murderer was anonymous, like the whole of the cabaret scene.
 

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9805E6D61730E233A25753C3A9679C946196D6CF

This story covers many of the basics -- it includes the eccentric and mad genes and it sullies the reputation of no one but Rudolph.  It's also believable in that it covers a vicious custom practiced at that time by the Hungarian and Austrian aristocracy which was to disgrace ones mistress in front of boon companions and it is worse than a consensual suicide-love-murder.  However, even this is probably a sanitized version of the real "truth"  told to the Emperor since it doesn't explain the broken down door to the main first floor bedroom, and it doesn't explain the other people who died at Mayerling that night.

It is more likely that Philipp of Coburg and Josel Hoyos told the Emperor something like this:  ~~ Rudolph suddenly without any obvious reason turned stark raving mad and started on a murdering rampage, shooting people at random and kicking down the bedroom door to find people hiding there (similar to that of Prince Dipendra to give it a modern context).   Nobody wanted to hurt Rudolph but someone had to stop him and so grabbed the nearest heavy object, a champagne bottle, and hit him over the head -- but with no intent to kill him~~.   

This explains many of the unexplained events around Mayerling -- for example, why the Emperor told the Grand Duke of Tuscany that Rudolph's death was an accident.   It also explains why the Emperor said:  "My son died like a tailor".  The man who had tried to assassinate Franz Joseph many years before was a tailor and that left a traumatic memory for the Emperor.   So he really meant:  "My son died like an assassin".   

(http://www.smiley-faces.org/smiley-faces/smiley-face-whistle-2.gif)

The only thing it doesn't give is a believable motive.


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 20, 2010, 05:18:22 PM
but that seems so unbelievable


Would the most enlightened Prince of Europe, the hope of his countries, that of a big portion of the world really be such a dangerous man. Yes, Rudolf had his dark side, believed to be inherited from his widely adored mother - who blamed herself too, but that he would kill his Mistress(even in a fit of rage). It does not sound fit to me. Besides, what with Mizzi's story of Rudolf almost telling her he was going to commit suicide. Was she forced in going along with this game? I can believe many things.... But not that such a thing has happened. And certainly, around that period lots of Deaths were reported, but who's to say that they all died at Mayerling? Yes, Rudolf and Mary did for sure, but why go to such lenghts to hide all those others and not Mary...? Because she was known to be 'the mistress' and they needed a cover-up?

My head goes simply spinning at this.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on December 20, 2010, 06:18:12 PM
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/5044198124_5d88a73210_b.jpg)
Bigger?
Love that drawing of Rudolf following FJ and Sissi. What picture of Rudolf with his mother in Venice? I've never seen it before, as far as I know. Could someone post it please?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 20, 2010, 07:31:41 PM
Use  the right button of your mouse, option "open image in another tab/page" and you will see it bigger.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 22, 2010, 02:14:10 PM
Beautiful paintings of rudolph and Mary Vetsera
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Royalty/rudimary.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on December 22, 2010, 07:08:11 PM
I thought Mary Vestera was blond...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on December 22, 2010, 11:17:54 PM
I thought Mary Vestera was blond...

Blond was Catherine Deneuve who played Mary in 'Mayerling'. But Mary was a brunette.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 23, 2010, 02:18:31 PM
I thought Mary Vestera was blond...

There are several portraits of her that aren't accurate showing her blonde or even redhaired, in her photos she looks brunette as Svetabel said in the post below.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on December 23, 2010, 03:47:36 PM
Mary was a Brunette, however as a child she had a lighter colour of hair - It's said to be blonde, or some kind of light brown... So that's with the misunderstanding(and all those actresses, 2 I know of, with the wrong hair colour don't help:p)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 04, 2011, 01:03:13 PM
The young Crown Prince and his mother the Empress Sissi
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/rudiandmama.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on January 08, 2011, 03:15:11 PM

(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Royalty/rudimary.jpg)

I tried to find the originals for this beautiful painting, but I'm not sure which one was used for Rudolph?

(http://oi56.tinypic.com/1i0g8l.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 10, 2011, 01:29:24 PM
The Crown Prince and Stephanie
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Royals/estefaniarodolfo.jpg)
The wedding
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Royals/bodarodolfo.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 11, 2011, 12:57:45 PM
Mary Vetsera looks much better in her painting than in the original photo
Don't remember this pose before....
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/vesteramaria.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on January 24, 2011, 02:38:21 PM
Well, we all know Mary was not the greatest beauty.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: oscarov on January 31, 2011, 02:20:21 AM
Hola, no hablo mucho ingles, pero quisiera dejar de nuevo un mensaje recordando como siempre el aniversario luctuoso del Príncipe rRodolfo de Hasburgo, hoy 30 de enero de 2011, en su 122 aniversario de fallecido en mayerling, descanse en paz.

Quiero agregar que he seguido con las investigaciones de mi bisabuelo Ramón, quien llegó a Baja California Sur, México Abril-Julio de 1881. en barco en el que llegó vía Europa-Australia-América.

Ojalá y a alguien le interese la Historia, tengo mucha más información, de lo que si estoy seguro ese que era hija del príncipe Rodolfo de Hasburgo, con María Antonia o Johanna Buska.

Saludos a todos. Sinceramente, Oscar de Anda.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on January 31, 2011, 05:42:44 AM
Hola, no hablo mucho ingles, pero quisiera dejar de nuevo un mensaje recordando como siempre el aniversario luctuoso del Príncipe rRodolfo de Hasburgo, hoy 30 de enero de 2011, en su 122 aniversario de fallecido en mayerling, descanse en paz.

Quiero agregar que he seguido con las investigaciones de mi bisabuelo Ramón, quien llegó a Baja California Sur, México Abril-Julio de 1881. en barco en el que llegó vía Europa-Australia-América.

Ojalá y a alguien le interese la Historia, tengo mucha más información, de lo que si estoy seguro ese que era hija del príncipe Rodolfo de Hasburgo, con María Antonia o Johanna Buska.

Saludos a todos. Sinceramente, Oscar de Anda.

That's fine. Could you please speak with us in English? It's an English-speaking Fourm.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 31, 2011, 12:48:35 PM
he s saying that his grandfather is descendant of Crownprince Rudolph

Oscar, este es un foro netamente hablado en ingles y en la misma seccion de los Habsburg hay un tema para Rudolf. Por favor, no desvirtues este y haz tus post en ingles.. Gracias.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 31, 2011, 02:28:29 PM
I only would like to know why was this person was moved here, to Mexico? I don't think that would be an appropiate place for a Habsburg living (mainly after the execution of Emperor Maximilian). Anyways, back to Stephanie.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on January 31, 2011, 09:08:01 PM
Quote from: oscarov
Hi, I would leave another message and always remembering death anniversary rRodolfo Prince of Hapsburg, today January 30, 2011, at its 122nd anniversary at Mayerling deceased rest in peace.

I would add that I have continued to research my great-grandfather Ramon, who arrived in Baja California Sur, Mexico from April to July 1881. by boat via Europe-Australia-America.

Hopefully someone already interested in history, I have much more information than if I'm sure that she was the daughter of Prince Rudolf of Habsburg, or Johanna Maria Antonia Buska.

Greetings to everyone. Sincerely, Oscar de Anda
.

Oscarov put this in several threads and Svetabel left it here so it must be at least partly on topic.   Crown Princess Stephanie once said she lost track of the number of people claiming to be an illegitimate offspring of Rudolph when they numbered about 30.  It has always confused me how people could make such claims but then become fuzzy or reserved when it came to supplying any facts.  Hutzpah!

Here's another one -- who claimed to be Rudolph and who of course fathered another child.  This child happened to be an uncle-in-law of the famous mathematician John Nash of "A Beautiful Mind".   http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~lamperti/Justo_Armas.html

However a side by side comparison of the man who claimed to be Rudolph with the real Crown Prince puts to rest this theory.   I'm not the expert on faces that  Katenka and some others here are, but I can measure and add and they don't add up to being the same person.  The distance between the eyes and the top of the head are different.  Also Rudolph had a straight brow, not curved, and the sides of Rudolph's head were not as rounded -- Crown Prince Rudolph had more of an oblong head shape whereas that of Justo Armas was very round.  These are the sort of things that don't change with time.

(http://oi51.tinypic.com/furk08.jpg)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on February 01, 2011, 06:02:36 AM
Ahh I wondered what had happened to you, "Pezzaz", in my month of absence:p(fell out of internet)

Also, I intend to start 'Crime At Mayerling' at last(it's on the bookshelf for ages). Curious to read it.

On another note, I was reading 'Romanov Autumn' and just finished the chapter on Princess Elena, who was the only Romanov captive to survive exile in the urals - she left her husband Prince Ionn, who wanted them to go to their children and see them to safety. She tried to contact the Imperial Family by going to the Ipatiev House, but was of course denied. After captivity in Ekaterinburg, Moscow and a close call to execution she was released and almost recaptured at the border. Eventually she was reunited with her children and found out what happened to her relatives in The Urals. -, in this chapter a 'MMe. Baltazzi', lady-in-waiting to Queen Olga of Greece,  is mentioned and now I wonder if this woman might have been related to Helene and, by any chance, might have been around at the time of Mayerling.

Also, in the last month, I got inspirated. So, to commemorate the annivery I posted a new video. The footage is from 'Kronprinz Rudolfs Letzte Liebe', one of the better movies on Mayerling - we see the funeral and the ghastly procession and burial of Mary, all this in a political game of intrigues, a love denied, and a father unwilling to know his son -, though the best remains "A trónörökös" which has actors really resembling the characters(I get dizzy looking at it, Rudolf has the beard and the moustache... So looks like him, and so goes for Mary and the rest of the people portrayed), and the story there has a 'docudrama'-quality to it. Anyhow, the song used is the theme of the musical 'Rudolf'(Once again), a reworked version of 'Du Bist Meine Welt in an unplugged setting(mostly piano and violin)... The song is simply touching(on stage it got me really teared up), and what they sing actually works for the characters.

Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV9nC4jBJCQ
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: oscarov on February 01, 2011, 10:04:22 AM
(http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh209/oscariux_2008/COMPARATIVOMEX-AUS.jpg)

Buenos diás en México, es una comparación de fotos de mi abuelo y bisabuelo. Me gustaría recibir sus comentarios. saludos.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on February 01, 2011, 10:07:42 AM
Sorry, i cant see the resemblance.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on February 01, 2011, 10:29:11 AM
Neither do I.... And whats the use of all these pretenders? We have the body buried in full state, so that leaves little space for those anyway.... Annoys me a little.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 01, 2011, 12:51:26 PM
I don't think honestly that both men resemble at nothing neither the Emperor FJ nor the Crown Prince!! Did they claimed this when they were alive?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: RealAnastasia on February 01, 2011, 10:33:52 PM
There's a certain ressemblance, but that's all. If this claimant has some doubt about his roots, he may always have his DNA test done.

My granny was very similar to Queen Elizabeth of England, her mother to Queen Victoria...and we never claimed to be "illegitimate Windsors"!

There's sorta of hysteria about being related to royalty. I'm a Monarchist myself and I'm not interested in being related to any character I read about.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on February 02, 2011, 12:30:12 PM
Ahh I wondered what had happened to you, "Pezzaz", in my month of absence:p(fell out of internet)

Also, I intend to start 'Crime At Mayerling' at last(it's on the bookshelf for ages). Curious to read it.

..................in this chapter a 'MMe. Baltazzi', lady-in-waiting to Queen Olga of Greece,  is mentioned and now I wonder if this woman might have been related to Helene and, by any chance, might have been around at the time of Mayerling.



Hey Imperial Grounds -- delighted to see you back.  The 'Crime At Mayerling' is one on my list too, although from excerpts I've read it seems the skull was damaged too extensively to make any firm conclusions about a bullet hole.  Could anyone tell for sure if it was damaged by the grave robbers or if it was put into the casket in that condition?

Was Baltazzi a common name in Greece?  It could be the same since they tended to run in those circles.

I've shifted my interest a little more towards Bismarck from learning of his involvement in Rudolph's death -- or at least I satisfied my own curiosity in that is how it happened.  Here is Bismarck's own exact words in his "Reflections & Reminiscences" about Rudolph's flirting with France:  "...........no words are needed to show how greatly aggravated would then be the peril of Germany".  Bismarck was nothing if not practical -- and no doubt he saw destroying Rudolph's reputation and then killing him as nothing more than self-defense.

I've been reading "An Uncommon Woman" now about Empress Friedrich but it's mostly about Bismarck, and he sure did a number on the Crown Prince and Princess of Germany too, or at least that's how the story goes.   I try mostly to keep an open mind since I know how the truth can be twisted into something unrecognizable by those with motive, and that is without a doubt what happened to Rudolph............and probably to Wilhelm II and Bismarck too since none of them had the opportunity to write their own history.  It reminds me of what Churchill said ~~ history will be kind to him because he would be the one to write it.

Since pictures can say a thousand words though, here's a couple of Rudolph that say it all about the twisted spin to which he was subjected, even by the most reputable biographers:  The portrait (Fritz Judtmann's book) on the right is made from the photo on the left.

Right-click to enlarge:

(http://oi52.tinypic.com/1z37wpd.jpg)



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 02, 2011, 01:56:39 PM
There's a certain ressemblance, but that's all. If this claimant has some doubt about his roots, he may always have his DNA test done.

My granny was very similar to Queen Elizabeth of England, her mother to Queen Victoria...and we never claimed to be "illegitimate Windsors"!

There's sorta of hysteria about being related to royalty. I'm a Monarchist myself and I'm not interested in being related to any character I read about.

RealAnastasia.

Well, something that you mention here is quite true, many claimants have argued that they resemble the ones they pretended to be (or to be related) and many really resembled the ones they cliamed (like a pair of Romanov claimants). It didn't meant that they were really those persons and DNA is really more accurate to prove something that only being speculating.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on February 11, 2011, 10:06:54 PM
which has actors really resembling the characters(I get dizzy looking at it, Rudolf has the beard and the moustache... So looks like him, and so goes for Mary and the rest of the people portrayed)..................................

Enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV9nC4jBJCQ


Very nice Imperial.............but I don't so much see the resemblance.  Rudolph had this very delicate, fine-tuned appearance but with strength too........much like how Princess Louise described her brother-in-law.  It does seem to be the sort of look that is quite hard to capture in art and other media apparently.  

Have you started to read 'Crime At Mayerling ' yet.   I'm reading this quite interesting book called 'Time of Murder at Mayerling' by Ann Dukthas written in 1996.  The author has done his research thoroughly and knows all the official facts which he then puts into a fictional setting with a Columbo styled detective-Highlander sort of character who then analyzes the given evidence and possible conclusions in the role of papal envoy.  

It's similar to my approach to the mystery, though from a different, more technical perspective.  He concludes that it was someone close to Rudolph who murdered him (read from book review) but I'm not to that part yet, but I'm so curious to know if he came to suspect the same ones -- namely Prince Phillip of Coburg and Count Hoyos and possibly other "friends".  

A couple points he's brought up that I hadn't considered before was:

1)  Why were they in such a hurry to bury Mary Vetsera before anyone had the chance to examine her?

2)  Why did no one hear any gunshots that night?   If there was a gun fired at Mayerling that night, even if it was muffled by bedclothes, it would have been heard.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on February 13, 2011, 08:20:37 AM
Well, I am not refering to that movie as the ones with the 'looks'.... That is a hungarian movie, which tells the story through an investigation and weaves all we know into short sections - from Rudolf's boyhood up to the aftermath of Mayerling -.... Which is why I like that movie most. It is not too much of a romantic drama but simply a statement of facts(or what the official story states to be so). Also I watched the french movie 'Le Secret De Mayerling', which is interesting because it goos far beyond the deaths at Mayerling. It starts after the tragedy, shows all the misinformation that went on at the Court, Countess Larisch who gets banished and La Vetsera who comes begging for her daughter. Also, it shows the burial of both Mary and Rudolf... And we go then in flashback back to when Rudolf and Mary are about to meet. After that the romance develops mosty like in other movies, with Mary being a naive schoolgirle with a crush and Rudolf a desperate man who eventually does fall in love. He asks for an annulment, the emperor forbids him and they fight... At the ball we get to see a great show, with again some fiction, as Mary refuses to bow for Stephanie. As Rudolf and Mary are at Mayerling it becomes evident the Germans plot to kill Rudolf and they send one to Mayerling. At Mayerling Rudolf and Mary await news from Hungary(the plot is in there too), which is discovered and Rudolf loses all his titles and rights... He is advised to go to his father and reason with him, but states it is too late for that, then Mary enters and says she will share his fate. Thus the stage is set for a suicide. As Rudolf feels himself unable to kill her and wants to live with her he wakes her up and tells them they'll live.... But at that moment the German envoy reaches Mayerling, gets in and kills them both in an instance.

Certainly a whole new dramatic take on the events.

As for the book, I have not started reading it yet... Don't know when to start, as I have both the memoirs of Princess Stephanie and Countess Larisch to read too(which I've read parts of in other books, but that's it)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 31, 2011, 02:21:36 PM
Teen Rudolf

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3807/spifdai.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/spifdai.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on April 25, 2011, 11:02:36 AM
He was handsome as a teen. No wonder, his parents both were great-looking people... It's amazing too, that his own daughter had a striking resemblance to her grandmother.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 04, 2011, 12:34:41 PM
Form the site habsburger.net, "The family of the Crown Prince Rudolph, at the gardens of the Laxenburg". He's on horseback, the girl at the carriage must be little Erzsi and the lady at her side the Crown Princess Staphanie. The others must be servants and ladies.
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Palace/image_large.jpg)
Title: Mizzi Caspar
Post by: Zukunftsseele on July 15, 2011, 04:58:18 AM
I don't know where to put this, so I'm sorry if this is the wrong place for the thread.
I am searching for photos / portraits of Mizzi Caspar, the mistress and close friend of Crownprince Rudolf of Austria. I only found this one and a portrait but I am sure there must be more photos, etc out there.

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/Mizzi_Kaspar_3.jpg)

(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/zukunftsseele/Portrait_Mizzi_Kaspar-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Mizzi Caspar
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 15, 2011, 07:58:52 AM
i think i ve seen a lot of pictures of her in rudolfs topic. check there.
Title: Re: Mizzi Caspar
Post by: Zukunftsseele on July 15, 2011, 12:40:18 PM
Thanks. But there were only one or two in the topics.
Title: Re: Mizzi Caspar
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 15, 2011, 01:12:18 PM
Hmm..

Well the only one "new" i found was this one, among other women vinculateds with Rudolf

(http://oi53.tinypic.com/1zokwf6.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Zukunftsseele on July 16, 2011, 06:28:59 AM
Thanks. Does anyone know where Mizzi has been buried respectively where her grave is?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carisbrooke on July 18, 2011, 01:52:42 AM
   According to hungarian wikipedia Mitzi Kaspar died in Vienna Jan 29th 1907, so that narrows down the search. It also states that on Rudolfs death she was left a substantial amount of funds in his will. Hopefully this means she was solvent at the time of her death, & therefore must have a grave site.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Zukunftsseele on July 18, 2011, 06:59:07 AM
Yes. I already searched for her at findagrave.com and knerger.de but she isn't mentioned anywhere.
Title: Re: Mizzi Caspar
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 18, 2011, 11:28:13 AM
Hmm..
Well the only one "new" i found was this one, among other women vinculateds with Rudolf

Isn't the third woman from left to right (on the second line) Mary Vetsera's mother? Or that's what I knew. Was really Rudolph involved with an affair with her?!? I've read that some people on his time suggested so (mainly after the incident of Mayerling) but on those times  many strange rumours were spread among the people about Rudolph and Mary. Would like to know so.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Zukunftsseele on July 18, 2011, 12:21:21 PM
Yes, it is Helene Vetsera, nee Baltazzi.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 21, 2011, 02:51:43 PM
another image of Mizzi

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xlDVyTapVkM/TJYaMi-qiqI/AAAAAAAAAhk/mrAnVWkcqcw/mizzi%252520caspar.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Zukunftsseele on July 21, 2011, 04:12:53 PM
Awesome! Thank you so much. :-))
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: oscarov on August 24, 2011, 03:44:25 AM

An apology for not writing in English ... I continue with the story of my great-grandfather came to America in May 1881. I am sure he is the son of Prince Rudolf. My theory is on a ship that sailed in Italy in January 1881, Captain Luis Salvador of Tuscany and Australia via Honolulu, the trip there, as well as the meeting of Fernando IV and Rodolfo in Egypt before the marriage to Stephanie. What is logical comment. need to find someone that interests you but this story. There is a real sword with a shield that apparently was Prince Rudolf.









 



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Gerta on August 30, 2011, 08:20:36 PM
   According to hungarian wikipedia Mitzi Kaspar died in Vienna Jan 29th 1907, so that narrows down the search. It also states that on Rudolfs death she was left a substantial amount of funds in his will. Hopefully this means she was solvent at the time of her death, & therefore must have a grave site.

 Is it true she died of complications of syphllis?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carisbrooke on August 31, 2011, 02:06:49 AM
  It does not say, though I think that would be a high possibility for someone in her profession. Regarding her burial I would make a guess & say she was buried at the Zentralfriedhof in Vienna, but I have no evidence for this.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Geniebeanie on October 20, 2011, 11:08:16 PM
I just finished a interesting book Crime at Matyerling by George Markus.    It is the story how they died, and how her body was stolen twice from her grave.
First by the Nazsi's and then one hundred years after her death, her body was stolen by Helmut Flatzelsteiner.   He was a man obsesed by Matyerling.   The reason he stole her body was to determine how she died and to share the truth with the world.   The book was so good in detail, I could not put it down and finished it in four hours.    I bought it through Amazon.com.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Carisbrooke on October 21, 2011, 03:21:30 AM
   I see the conversation has now moved back to Mary Vetsera. Speaking as a Mayerling newbie this sounds like a very interesting book.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: feodorovna on October 22, 2011, 09:02:00 AM
Having read through this fascinating thread, I would like to throw another possibility into the arena. Whilst it may not be true that MV was Rudolph's natural daughter, it may have suited her vengeful mother to allow him to believe he was and an opportune moment to reveal this "secret" presented itself when Mary became pregnant. Under those circumstances it probably would not have taken much to scare the girl with tales of Bavarian madness and add to this the possibility of Rudolph being syphillitic, the fear of the relationship being revealed either by blackmail or his "daughter" giving birth to his hideously deformed child/ "grandchild" and the scene may well have been set for the tragedy that ensued.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Clemence on November 29, 2011, 03:58:40 AM
I was thinking just about the same feodorovna!!!
Title: Re: Mizzi Caspar
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 28, 2011, 01:26:09 PM
I don't know where to put this, so I'm sorry if this is the wrong place for the thread.
I am searching for photos / portraits of Mizzi Caspar, the mistress and close friend of Crownprince Rudolf of Austria. I only found this one and a portrait but I am sure there must be more photos, etc out there.

Found this (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2646/4121807588_2bbf50fcd0_o.jpg) photo labeled as her on a site, expect can be useful. (Not mine)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on January 01, 2012, 04:53:40 PM
I just visited Mayerling - quite a sad place. The lack of English in the exhibit was a little frustrating. The tour guide says everything you heard about Mayerling is a fabrication, because all the family members have sworn secrecy over it. It still seems the suicide pact the most plausible one so far. would you agree?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: heavensent on March 22, 2012, 06:06:30 PM
Was nt Mayerling demolished  and a monastery  ( or nunnery ) built on the site ?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: heavensent on March 22, 2012, 06:16:08 PM
Not sure how many times Rudolf met up with  King Ludvig, but I think they got
on well .. I think  Rudolf was fond of his eccentric  "uncle"  and of course  the King loved   the son of his dear cousin  Elizabeth.

Rudolf must... like  his mother..... have been saddened by the tragic suicide of the King.

As the years went  by  Rudolf  felt he had achieved nothing,  that  he  was in a loveless marriage  and  ... perhaps....
   he also   felt that the Austrian Empire was in  irreversable decline ....

Somehow , against this background he decided   that suicide was the answer and  spoke about it  to
some of his female aquaintances.

 It is sad that  his life ended  in that way  and  sad too that just before his  death.... just like King Ludvig ...
he  committed murder.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on March 23, 2012, 11:51:58 AM
Here're some pictures I took

This room remains as Rudolph's time
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/432352_3149594700737_1291176993_3139965_1030280361_n.jpg)

Mary Vetsera's coffin
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/383364_2855808996278_1291176993_3013430_572042627_n.jpg)

Exhibit at Mayerling though all in German
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/395391_2855809276285_1291176993_3013431_2050332136_n.jpg)

The chapel - the room Rudolph was found now stands an altar
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/406633_2855809756297_1291176993_3013433_1974122591_n.jpg)



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: heavensent on April 13, 2012, 03:04:40 PM
Maybe  the Prince of Wales  saw a lot of himself in Rudolf,  they were both
self indulgent , louche,  womanizers.... both quite immoral  .... both  men at the
 very  top of perhaps the greatest monarchies in Europe.

This Royal Decadence   at the height of the Victorian Age when religion and morality had very real  meaning   to people  in society.

   The two  Royal rogues were good friends and in fact it was the Prince of Wales who
pointed out  Mary  Vetsera  as a young beauty   to Rudolf   when they were at the races   together.
 It was the Prince of Wales  who  brought her to Rudolf's attention.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: aor on April 14, 2012, 06:37:03 AM
So many things were 'stacked' against Rudolph. He became who he was because of his parents and the circle around them. I very strongly believe that he, like Edward VII, would have made a good Monarch. Neither FJ or QV involved their Heir in the 'business' of 'ruling', they each liked to keep that position to themselves and held on to it for dear life! FJ was stuck in the past and was afraid of losing his precious Empire. At least QV had Prince Albert to guide her and brought England into the 'light', FJ was stuck with an unstable Consort and even if she would not have been mentally unstable, she was not allowed to mingle in politics. 
I think Rudolph is judged to harsh by history and this whole 'Mayerling Affair' stinks..........As long as the House of Habsburg keeps the secret, we will never find out what really happened. I myself keep wondering what the Vatican still has in it's Archives.............
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on April 14, 2012, 12:56:49 PM
I don't think there is any serious possibility of Rudolf having fathered Mary Vetsera, simply on the basis of dates. Mary was born on 19 March 1871, Rudolf on 21 August 1858, so he would have been 11 at the time of her conception!

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: FlashlightReader on September 25, 2012, 07:13:02 PM
No one seems to have posted here for a while. I am looking for information on Rudolph and was wondering if anyone might be patient enough to take on some on my questions? If so could you please PM me? I don't want to flood the board.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on September 26, 2012, 01:12:47 AM
Please feel free to flood this board -- it's dry enough to soak it all up.   :)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: aor on September 26, 2012, 04:44:38 AM
so dry, there is not even enough tittle tattle to go around........... :) let us have some meat to chew on!!!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: FlashlightReader on September 26, 2012, 05:55:14 PM
Well so long as no one minds... :)

I don't know a lot about Rudolph so I apologize if these questions are basic or naive.

1. Most of the material I've read claims he was something of a womanizer, but all come up short after naming the Vetseras and Caspar. What's the deal?
2. Related to the first question, but again several books claim he fathered several illegitimate children. Are any of them known?
3. What's the deal with the ring? Fact, rumor, romantic fantasy, what?

I'll leave it at three for now but I'd be interested to know anything you might have to share.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 01, 2012, 11:53:16 AM
Welcome FlashlightReader and those are all great questions.   I just returned from vacation but will give your questions some thought and see if I might remember some answers, and as with so many things concerning Rudolph, there are no clear answers.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: FlashlightReader on October 01, 2012, 06:42:37 PM
No worries! Take your time but thank you for posting a reply in the meantime.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 07, 2012, 11:23:40 PM

I don't know a lot about Rudolph so I apologize if these questions are basic or naive.


The history of Rudolph is fascinating since it relates to so much else and I believe a terrible injustice was done to him.   There's a lot of information in this thread and part 1 -- I read most every book I could find when posting my conclusions/summaries in these 2 threads.


1. Most of the material I've read claims he was something of a womanizer, but all come up short after naming the Vetseras and Caspar. What's the deal?


There is not a lot of evidence Rudolph was a real womanizer.  It's even unsure if or how involved he was with the younger Vetsera.  There's a couple good sources that said the mother Vetsera showed him the way when he was a boy of 12 or 13.  Then the existence of Caspar as his girlfriend is certain.  Several good reports told of a warm and close marriage in the early years between Rudolph and Stephanie.  All the rest is speculation.  As described above in detail, I'm convinced Bismarck had Rudolph killed, and since he didn't want a martyr, he made sure he destroyed Rudolph's reputation first.  One of the better books that was mostly ignored was one written by his private secretary some time after the incident at Mayerling.


2. Related to the first question, but again several books claim he fathered several illegitimate children. Are any of them known?


There's a book called "He did not die at Mayerling" which was written by someone who claimed to be a son of Rudolph.  I didn't find it all that credible.  Another claim was a son by some Russian princess and after Rudolph's death, FJ apparently hired some notable civil war general to track down this son.  This could have been the result of strong suggestions misleading FJ.   For some reason, nothing ever came of it although the woman and her son were found at least I think from what I vaguely remember.   I seem to remember another one mentioned in Part 1 of this thread.


3. What's the deal with the ring? Fact, rumor, romantic fantasy, what?


Are you referring to the bronze ring Rudolph supposedly gave MV?  One of the strangest things I noted about all reports of them is that he just met her a few months before falling madly in love and ending it all in bloody glory.  Rudolph had always known MV.  Her Baltazzi uncles were connected with the FJ and Sisi -- I think taking care of their horses or something, but they were a fixed part of Rudolph's childhood, as was  MV and her mother.  Some claim it was the Prince of Wales who introduced them, but it wasn't.  The POW did draw Rudolph's attention to MV, and in so doing, wrote in his diary that Rudolph's attitude was dismissive with some disdain.  For some reason, probably other than romance, MV had a tight hold over Rudolph.  She might have been one of Bismarck's unwitting pawns..........but how is a wild guess. 

So FlashlightReader, any opinions yet?   :)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: FlashlightReader on October 08, 2012, 11:13:47 AM
Nothing conclusive beyond the pure absurdity of the Romeo and Juliet angle Pezzazz, but I knew that before I started. lol.

Yes that is the ring I was referring to. Many sources cite the exchange of such a ring but no one seems to know anything about it. One would think that someone would know something but thus far I haven't been able to locate one first hand account of its existence. I don't believe there was a love connection between CPR and MV. He might have found her attentions flattering considering his relatively small circle of influence at court, but I think anything beyond that implausible. I tend to think she pursued a relationship out of infatuation, but again, that's just me.

Several individuals claim to be related to the Prince through illegitimate children, but here again I tend to disregard the claims. I view them much like the Romanovs claimants, fortune hunters looking for a pot of gold. Again there are several claims but nothing concrete to fall back on.

Silly as it sounds I hadn't given much thought to Rudolph's relationships with women until I stumbled over this: http://www.amazon.de/Frauen-Kronprinz-Rudolf-Kaiserin-Elisabeth/dp/3218007380/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_11. Acquiring it would be a feat of sorts but even if I could manage it, I unfortunately can't read German.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 08, 2012, 01:44:38 PM
Rudolph's cousin Marie Larisch in her My Past (available online for free) did mention I believe the bronze ring -- either that or in one of her other writings.

There's very few original first hand experiences written into books about this subject -- and if they differ from the official version tend to be ignored.

From Tales from the Vienna Woods: The Man who would have been Emperor

In retrospect, after viewing the horrendous world events which followed, it now seems more than
reasonable that, for political reasons, a third party or parties committed the murders, killing Vetsera
simply to silence her and to cover up the political nature of a criminal assassination. It appeared that
Marie had been killed several hours before Rudolf, and perhaps he was forced to watch her brutal,
quietly inflicted death, which forensic analysis generally concludes was probably from beating, not
gunshots. Furthermore, Rudolf's alleged "suicide letter" to his wife could have been written under
duress. In it, he bids farewell to her and his friends, saying that "only death can save his good name",
but it does not give a reason why he killed himself, and in fact makes no mention of suicide or of
Marie. In any case, how would a double-suicide or murder-suicide "save his good name"?

Evidence in reports made at the time of the deaths stated that his body showed evidence of a major
violent struggle. The body of the Crown Prince wore gloves at his funeral and his mother was not
allowed to see his hands, since they were supposedly injured and possibly covered with defensive
wounds. This also resembles what Empress Zita said about the events. All the same, the exact cause
and circumstances of Rudolf's death remain a mystery to this day.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on October 08, 2012, 09:22:03 PM
One way or another, I found Rudolf the most tragic Habsburg. He never had the affection and approval that he craved from his parents. And he had a loveless marriage and no heir and future to look forward to. He suffered physically from STD. Since he was never religious, I think a suicide was a logical end to his sad life.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 08, 2012, 10:15:44 PM
Rudolph wasn't as down and out as someone wanted everyone to believe.  He was holding about 200 audiences per week up till his death -- he was actively involved and enthusiastic about many projects.  He had more of his parents love than popular scuttlebutt claimed.  There's more evidence against his suicide than for it.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on October 08, 2012, 11:59:26 PM
Pezzazz,

I'd be very interested to hear more details - the more evidence against his suicide
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: aor on October 09, 2012, 05:17:59 AM
I firmly believe that there was no murder-suicide.....He was 'eliminated'! BUT, less the House of Habsburg gives a full account of the real 'truth', we will never know. In the Larisch books, she not only points to the bronze ring, she also mentions a box that was entrusted to her by her cousin and later taken from her by Johan Salvator, who most conviently went away with his wife and was presumed to have died at sea. However, there are accounts of Salvator being in Canada and the return of a box several years ago to the Habsburg from Cananda. I would love to have access to the Vatican Archives.......... as more then likely, answers could be fond. I do tend to believe the Empress Zita account.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on October 09, 2012, 06:40:48 PM
I firmly believe that there was no murder-suicide.....He was 'eliminated'! BUT, less the House of Habsburg gives a full account of the real 'truth', we will never know. In the Larisch books, she not only points to the bronze ring, she also mentions a box that was entrusted to her by her cousin and later taken from her by Johan Salvator, who most conviently went away with his wife and was presumed to have died at sea. However, there are accounts of Salvator being in Canada and the return of a box several years ago to the Habsburg from Cananda. I would love to have access to the Vatican Archives.......... as more then likely, answers could be fond. I do tend to believe the Empress Zita account.



If FJ started WWI after Franz Ferdinand's assassination why would he remain silent over the murder of his own son?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: aor on October 10, 2012, 05:45:52 AM

If FJ started WWI after Franz Ferdinand's assassination why would he remain silent over the murder of his own son?
[/quote]

why? Germany was involved as a 'partner in crime'.......... How could he reveal as he needed the Germans! The murder of the Archduke Ferdinand and his spouse was not the cause WW1 was started, it was just a 'valid' excuse and it provided the downfall of the Empire. FJ would have been better off involving his only son in politics instead of hoarding the crown and abstaining from living in the past.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 10, 2012, 03:11:36 PM
... He had more of his parents love than popular scuttlebutt claimed.  There's more evidence against his suicide than for it.

I'm not saying that Sissi and Franz Joseph did not love him, it's only that they always seemed to be very cold towards him... he always looked for his mother's love but she didn't show much interest for Rudolph -not minding what he did, his younger sister always was the first- until he was dead -in one way I think that she felt guilty-. About his father, he seemed to be a good parent but in the last years the relationship seemed to get a bit "damaged". So I want that you can tell more about this topic, I got very interested and I want to know more. All the limited accounts that I know show that idea of Rudolph being always neglected by his parents.

I also think that the suicide theory isn't likely, I tend to think that someone assasinated him. But it is something that possibly we'll never know well.
There are many stupid theories about who would have killed Rudolph, time ago I read a forum where a person claimed that the Emperor Franz Joseph himself ordered to kill Rudolph because he considered his son very dangerous for his liberal ideas -as well as the idea that Rudolph was planning a coup d'etat against his father-... and this person continued claiming that FJ was also responsible of the death of his wife!!! It's really silly!!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 11, 2012, 01:45:50 PM

If FJ started WWI after Franz Ferdinand's assassination why would he remain silent over the murder of his own son?

Naturally, that is a very good question.  Now if the Germans (Bismarck) had Rudolph killed, does anyone think they would have made that fact known to FJ?  No, or course not since FJ was a proud emperor and loved his son in his own way.   Even with being partners of Germany, FJ would never have let that slide.  So how could someone get around the objections of the Austrian Royal Family to just accepting the death of Rudolph as being murder-suicide if there was any doubt?

Take a look at the facts we do have, and one in particular always made an impression on me.  Those closest to Rudolph have all said something similar:  ~The truth is so much worse~ than the official finding of murder-suicide.  This was claimed not only by FJ himself, but also by Marie-Valerie and Rudolph's two closest companions that night, his brother-in-law Prince Philip and Count Hoyos, among others.  Now the murder of a young, almost under-age mistress by a married man who then kills himself is quite bad.  Although it can be given a certain romantic spin effectively exploited in later movies, it had to be totally bad from the point of view of the Austrian Royal Family at that time.

What could have happened as alleged by those present (Prince Philip and Count Hoyos) that would have been so much worse than murder-suicide?   Any guesses anyone?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on October 11, 2012, 11:06:22 PM
I thought at the time the official truth was that he had a heart attack or was temporarily insane and committed suicide. The fact that he killed MV first was not known to the public. Therefore THAT (he killed MV) was much worst. That's how I interpreted it.



Naturally, that is a very good question.  Now if the Germans (Bismarck) had Rudolph killed, does anyone think they would have made that fact known to FJ?  No, or course not since FJ was a proud emperor and loved his son in his own way.   Even with being partners of Germany, FJ would never have let that slide.  So how could someone get around the objections of the Austrian Royal Family to just accepting the death of Rudolph as being murder-suicide if there was any doubt?

Take a look at the facts we do have, and one in particular always made an impression on me.  Those closest to Rudolph have all said something similar:  ~The truth is so much worse~ than the official finding of murder-suicide.  This was claimed not only by FJ himself, but also by Marie-Valerie and Rudolph's two closest companions that night, his brother-in-law Prince Philip and Count Hoyos, among others.  Now the murder of a young, almost under-age mistress by a married man who then kills himself is quite bad.  Although it can be given a certain romantic spin effectively exploited in later movies, it had to be totally bad from the point of view of the Austrian Royal Family at that time.

What could have happened as alleged by those present (Prince Philip and Count Hoyos) that would have been so much worse than murder-suicide?   Any guesses anyone?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 12, 2012, 12:14:39 AM
Those other theories were just in the first day or two after the tragedy.  When Rudolph's family and the prime minister and others said the truth was so much worse was years later. 

Again, does anyone have any ideas on what could be worse than murder / suicide under these circumstances?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: FlashlightReader on October 12, 2012, 08:42:51 PM
No theories here, but since I'm posting does anyone know anything about Mitzi?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Pezzazz on October 13, 2012, 11:35:42 AM
After Rudolph died, Mitzi was taken very good care of financially for the rest of her life, although she died rather young -- early 1900s.

After the initial claims, she never had anything more to say about him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: FlashlightReader on October 15, 2012, 06:10:33 AM
Does anyone know anything of her life before?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on December 27, 2012, 09:57:53 AM
People, could anyone post photos of Mayerling Hunting lodge's plans of interior, with floors and rooms marked. It have been posted here, but unfortunately I can't find it right now.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on January 18, 2013, 11:37:59 PM
People, could anyone post photos of Mayerling Hunting lodge's plans of interior, with floors and rooms marked. It have been posted here, but unfortunately I can't find it right now.


as per request, here are the plans:
(NOTE: i'm not sure why, but the images, as posted, aren't clickable... i'll try to remedy that situation.)


the first floor
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling1stfl_zps19e40aa4.jpg)

the ground floor
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlinggrndfl_zps1541c8fa.jpg)

site plan
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingsiteplan_zpsc3404f60.jpg)

the convent that replaced the hunting lodge
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingasconvent_zps9ba89888.jpg)


.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on January 19, 2013, 03:46:01 PM
People, could anyone post photos of Mayerling Hunting lodge's plans of interior, with floors and rooms marked. It have been posted here, but unfortunately I can't find it right now.


as per request, here are the plans:
(NOTE: i'm not sure why, but the images, as posted, aren't clickable... i'll try to remedy that situation.)


ADDENDUM: i have, hopefully, fixed the link issues re: the plans.  i don't know how many of you have seen them before, but i have also, included 4 "3D" models of the crime scene, which were based on the the known evidence (i gather this means those points/things which all accounts have in common).... nonetheless, take it all with a grain of salt.    (which loosely translates as:  i haven't got a clue where i found them, who did them, or when they were done.)

they do look rather like a "Sims" setting, though, don't they?  LOL


click on the images for larger size

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/th_mayerling01-zimmer1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling01-zimmer1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/th_mayerling02-zimmeroben.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling02-zimmeroben.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/th_mayerling03-zimmer3d1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling03-zimmer3d1.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/th_mayerling04-entrezimmer.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling04-entrezimmer.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/th_mayerlinggrndfl_zps1541c8fa.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlinggrndfl_zps1541c8fa.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/th_mayerling1stfl_zps19e40aa4.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling1stfl_zps19e40aa4.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/th_mayerlingsiteplan_zpsc3404f60.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingsiteplan_zpsc3404f60.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/th_mayerlingasconvent_zps9ba89888.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingasconvent_zps9ba89888.jpg)



.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Clemence on June 21, 2014, 03:11:56 AM
In Greece it's known that Mary Vetsera's mother was of the Baltazzi family, of Greek origins (Μπαλτατζής, from the island of Chios I believe), yet in the wikipedia I find the family reported as Italian. Could someone help me out with this maybe?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on June 21, 2014, 12:11:20 PM
I always understood that they were originally from Venice but moved to Izmir (Smyrna) and then to Constantinople (Istanbul) in the 18th. century. Helene Vetsera was actually born in France (Marseilles) but at the time of her marriage to Albin von Vetsera (who was from Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia) was described as "the richest young woman in Constantinople". I don't know if this information is of any help!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Clemence on June 22, 2014, 06:28:01 AM
Thank you very much, I also found this that might be of some help (it was for me):

http://levantineheritage.com/testi44.htm (http://levantineheritage.com/testi44.htm)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on June 23, 2014, 05:33:14 AM
Thanks Clemence,

that was very interesting and clarifies many confusing issues. I only scrolled through it quickly but will read it in more detail later.

Cheers,
GREENOWL (Monika)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Maria Sisi on July 10, 2014, 01:53:25 PM
Sorry if this has already been discussed but I was reading Joan Haslip's biography on Elisabeth and she mentioned the possible signs that Rudolph wasn't exactly mentally stable started at an early age. She said Rudolph drew pictures of dead animals with all the blood showing and how he was excited to show them to his mom and her horror didn't register with him or something like that. Is this actually true, has anyone actually seen such pictures?

I also read somewhere else he also had a whole dead horse stuffed and on display in a glass case in some wild pose and that he was very rough with other animals as well when growing up. I believe Brigitte Hamman's bio on Elisabeth has a similar theme concerning Rudolf and animals as well although I'm not sure.

It's been mentioned that Rudolph tried to win his mother's affection by taking interest in things that she had passion for so I find it strange that he would do such things considering how much of an animal lover she was.

I've only read a few things on Rudolf but never a full biography study since I unfortunately don't know German. Is there anything in English that anyone can recommend?
 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on November 24, 2014, 11:20:26 AM
is the CROWN PRINCE   2006   available online in English
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on January 06, 2016, 01:57:49 PM
Deathbed

(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/ErzsiMarie/cpdeath_zpstj67jq0o.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/ErzsiMarie/cpdeath_zpstj67jq0o.jpg.html)

Funeral

(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/ErzsiMarie/rudeath_zpsjwrzgcjq.jpg) (http://s601.photobucket.com/user/KaiserinCharlotte/media/ErzsiMarie/rudeath_zpsjwrzgcjq.jpg.html)

Source: http://alzbeta-sisi.blog.cz/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Clemence on May 03, 2016, 02:40:24 AM
I always understood that they were originally from Venice but moved to Izmir (Smyrna) and then to Constantinople (Istanbul) in the 18th. century. Helene Vetsera was actually born in France (Marseilles) but at the time of her marriage to Albin von Vetsera (who was from Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia) was described as "the richest young woman in Constantinople". I don't know if this information is of any help!

The irony of being so rich and loose everything!

https://androom.home.xs4all.nl/biography/p008531.htm (https://androom.home.xs4all.nl/biography/p008531.htm)
Title: THE BED OF MAYERLING
Post by: Richard D on May 28, 2016, 08:59:52 AM
Hello All,

The bed where found dead the Crown Prince Rudolf and the Baroness Mary Vetsera would always exist. Does anyone have a photo of the famous bed?

Thanks,

Richard
Title: Re: THE BED OF MAYERLING
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 02, 2016, 03:22:24 PM
Hello All,

The bed where found dead the Crown Prince Rudolf and the Baroness Mary Vetsera would always exist. Does anyone have a photo of the famous bed?

Thanks,

Richard


Not much time ago I saw (and reblogged) a post on tumblr saying that the bed where Crown Prince Rudolph and Mary Vetsera died still exists, it was included a photo of it: Click here (http://queenoftheamazons1837.tumblr.com/post/142301593876/martinpasching-the-bed-rudolf-and-mary-vetsera)!!!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: oscarov on October 05, 2016, 09:18:32 PM
Hello, i afirm, my grand grand father is son of Rudolf,
in this month, i will make studies ADN with other people in USA.

saludos.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Clemence on January 06, 2017, 10:57:52 AM
Only today I saw this in wiki:

Quote
Latest evidence[edit]
On 31 July 2015 the Austrian National Library issued copies of Vetsera's letters of farewell to her mother and other family members. These letters, previously believed lost or destroyed, were found in a safe deposit box in an Austrian bank, where they had been deposited in 1926. The letters - written in Mayerling shortly before the deaths - state clearly and unambiguously that Vetsera was preparing to commit suicide alongside Rudolf, out of "love". They will be made available to scholars and are likely to be exhibited in public in 2016.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerling_incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayerling_incident)

Sorry if it has already been discussed in the forum
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 06, 2017, 08:17:41 PM
The letters went on display late last summer.  They're more interesting for clarifying decades of rumors about what they SUPPOSEDLY said and included than for illuminating anything.  Penny Wilson and myself have spent the last two years working on a new book on events at Mayerling (which should be out from St. Martin's late this year, fingers crossed) and fortunately not only did these letters surface at the right time but we also luckily had access to an unpublished account of events there by Court Commissioner Heinrich Slatin.  Since no one ever expects anything new to crop up in this case, hopefully it will prove interesting.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 22, 2017, 01:28:32 PM
I am looking forward to the new book on the events at Mayerling. Have some new facts emerged? It would be amazing after all this time.
Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 22, 2017, 08:32:17 PM
I think (I hope!) we got it right, but wading through decades of rumor and conspiracy theories and sorting out fact from fiction has taken forever.  Luckily, we do have some new information and materials. Our theory on what happened (which is all one can ever offer in this case) is new but fully supported by the evidence and forensics.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: NicolasG on January 23, 2017, 05:25:25 AM
I hope that any new book about Mayerling does not make a doomed romantic hero of Rudolph. He dragged a 17-year old girl to her death. That wasn't romantic. That was vile.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 23, 2017, 06:43:05 AM
I agree.

When I visited the Imperial Burial Vault in Vienna, I was astonished to find that there were far more flowers on Rudolf's grave than anyone else's.

We can certainly argue that he was ill-served in his life, particularly by his parents, but romantic hero he was not.

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 23, 2017, 11:54:18 AM
Excellent news! I am looking forward to the new information and theory.

For the record, on the available evidence I certainly do not consider Crown Prince Rudolf a hero, romantic or otherwise!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 23, 2017, 09:37:19 PM
No kidding.  In doing our research we uncovered some things new that left me convinced he was seriously unbalanced.  About the only person who (barely) emerges as sympathetic in this whole story is Mary, and not by much. But romance - nope. There was nothing romantic in what happened that night. It's more like a tragedy all around, enacted by very damaged people, that spiraled out of control.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 24, 2017, 10:48:46 AM
Thanks Greg!

I am really looking forward to reading the new book, especially as I enjoyed "The assassination of the Archduke" very much. Please let me know when it is published so that I can order it...from what you said in your first post it sounds as if it might be published in November or December.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 24, 2017, 08:11:43 PM
I think St. Martin's is aiming for somewhere around Christmas, but I will let you know once a definite date is set. I'll be really curious to hear opinions given that this is an episode almost completely submerged in myth and conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 25, 2017, 05:54:58 AM
Thanks Greg!

That should ensure some interesting Christmas reading. I think that the various myths and conspiracy theories started almost immediately after the tragic event as a result of the initial lies and false statements issued by the imperial court.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 25, 2017, 10:47:52 AM
Further, rather like the death of Diana, nobody could quite accept the messy reality - a straightforward road accident in Diana's case, murder and suicide in Rudolf's.

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 25, 2017, 09:28:44 PM
There's no doubt that the Imperial Court's strategy of concealing Mary's presence fed the rumors, but what is surprising is how often it was members of the Habsburg family who spread deliberate information - anything and everything to "save" Rudolf's reputation.  About ninety percent of the various conspiracy theories originate either with Habsburgs or their courtiers - which in and of itself is telling. But then (nearly) everyone lied in this case, from Loschek and Hoyos to the Prime Minister and Mary's own mother.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 26, 2017, 11:54:47 AM
Agreed!  With regard to the lies, I suspect that the court put pressure on the various individuals involved to remain discreet and not divulge too much information about the tragedy. Another source of misinformation was Countess Marie Larisch, who played a key role in making it possible for Mary Vetsera to travel to Mayerling.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 26, 2017, 09:45:09 PM
Larisch is her own bundle of lies alone. At least there is some satisfaction in seeing how Helene and Larisch bitterly went at each other for "lying" after Mayerling, when they had both been fully aware of what was happening and had been using each other for nearly a year!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 27, 2017, 11:43:53 AM
I totally agree. Larisch's various accounts are most unreliable and it seemed that she lied to almost everyone, including Helene Vetsera. While the latter was no angel, as the saying goes, I have always given her the benefit of the doubt as I could not imagine any parent knowingly putting their 17 year old daughter into such a situation, but perhaps I am mistaken.

So far, the only book about Mayerling that I found good was Fritz Judtmann's "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend", first published almost 50 years ago. Any of the others that I read merely recycled the various myths and usually I did not bother to even finish them! However, I am quite sure that will most definitely not be the case with your forthcoming book!!!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 27, 2017, 08:00:15 PM
Judtmann as great, but he also carefully edited out a few things from Hoyos and others that put Rudolf in a less than favorable light; he did the same with his treatment of the Vetseras.

The book is actually done in several parts, so you may get a frustrating sense with part I, which examines the people and incidents, but without analysis or any questioning, up to January 28 1889. Part II takes the story from January 28 to 1958, again just as straightforward narrative.  But Parts III and IV are the meat of the book.  Part III goes back and looks at the various claims and theories and examines them and renders verdicts. And Part IV returns to the story of Rudolf and Mary but reassesses all that has come before, adding in context, analysis, and examination to show what we think likely happened at Mayerling.  So you may have a brief sense of despair with the first parts, which alas, have to be there for readers unfamiliar with the tale, but the last two parts should (hopefully!) capture attention.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 28, 2017, 03:29:25 AM
Thanks Greg, it sounds as if you have done a wonderful job and I can't wait to get my hands on the book! I am surprised that Judtmann tried to conceal or edit out part of the truth almost 80 years later. By coincidence, tomorrow is the 128th. anniversary of the tragic events in Mayerling...amazing that we are still talking about them!

Thanks again and cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 28, 2017, 09:13:21 PM
Judtmann was very cautious in dealing with certain things - he edited Hoyos and some police statements, as well as a statement from Mitzi Caspar and several others - that contained too "intimate" or revealing info.  He did the same with some of the Vetsera materials - again probably because he had existing relationships with members of the family - not that it would have mattered as he died before his book was actually published!

I admire his book a lot, though - it is at least an honest attempt to get at the heart of certain things, rather than one built round a pet theory. I think his ultimate conclusions as to what happened at the lodge are wrong, but he is the most reliable English language source available, certainly, though I would say Lars Friedrich has done the best all around work, though it's in German.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 29, 2017, 03:01:30 AM
Thanks Greg. I am glad you share my view that to date Judtmann's book is the best English language work on the subject, despite its caution in dealing with certain evidence. Oddly enough, I have never heard of the book by Lars Friedrich. Although the language would not be a problem for me I think I will wait for your forthcoming book and am fascinated at the idea of conclusions that differ from those of Judtmann.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 29, 2017, 11:14:33 PM
The problem is of course there have been quite a few books on the subject, and one has to read everything in order to sort what's useful and what's not - the first was published in May 1889 in Leipzig and promptly banned by Austrian officials! But aside from the usual memoirs and suspects (and excepting Judtmann and Friedrich) the other "important" book has really been Viktor Bibl’s 1938 book Kronprinz Rudolf: die Tragödie eines sinkenden Reiches, which benefited from access to the remaining participants, including Rudolf's daughter.

Surprisingly, perhaps, some things previously considered reliable - including Corti's bio of Sisi - just aren't when it comes to many aspects of the story.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on January 30, 2017, 03:49:24 AM
Today it is anniversary of the tragedy.

I mean, two persons were found dead in short time period, died unnaturally. Your common sense tells you that there had been at least one murder commited.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 30, 2017, 03:41:39 PM

Surprisingly, perhaps, some things previously considered reliable - including Corti's bio of Sisi - just aren't when it comes to many aspects of the story.

That is a surprise! Reading and comparing so many books must involve a great deal of work, as I think the author George R. Marek claimed that the number of books published about the events in Mayerling far surpassed the number written about the whole long reign of Kaiser Franz Joseph, although how true that claim is I cannot say and Marek made it in 1973.
Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 30, 2017, 11:20:17 PM
Oh, there was indeed a murder there.

I'm not sure how many books have been done in total - I think perhaps about 70 or so. But many are just pet theories - Wolfson's The Mayerling Murder, for example - that are without a shred of proof.

Ironically my favorite theory appeared in a fictional work on Mayerling, which had Stephanie arranging the deaths of her husband and his mistress - absurd, but entertaining - and probably yet another example of how Stephanie has been dragged through the mud in this saga and unfairly blamed for being married to such a rotter.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 31, 2017, 05:01:32 AM
'Such a rotter.'

A pretty good description of Rudolf, I think.

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on January 31, 2017, 01:24:21 PM
I agree about Stephanie but the (badly) arranged marriage seemed doomed from the very start as the couple had nothing in common and it appears that Stephanie did not get on very well with her parents-in-law or sisters-in-law. Although she was treated very unfairly and infected with a gonorrheal disease by Rudolf she got "very bad press" as she tended to complain and see herself as the offended and injured party, which I suppose she was in many ways.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on January 31, 2017, 01:53:49 PM
Thank you everyone for your responses, I began to get interested in the topic.

But recently discovered farewell letters written by Mary Vetsera - are they authentic, really written by her? As well as Rudolf's last letter - can we believe that those were indeed written by them two? :)

Best regards,
N.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on January 31, 2017, 09:54:12 PM
Poor Stephanie - I know she could behave a bit unsympathetically but I don't think without reason.  And people like her nephew by marriage Carl Lónyay were just absurdly over the top in their hyperbolic criticisms.  One of the things that was surprising was how often she went to Franz Josef, to priests, to members of Rudolf's suite - begging them to intervene and ask him (as in two cases) to actually join her in marital counseling!  But most everyone ignored her.
 
The recently discovered letters were indeed written by Mary - but they are most interesting for what they reveal as to their content - things that authors and her own family have always insisted appeared in them are clearly not included.

Rudolf's letters, such as they are, were also genuine - we have seen only the one he write to Stephanie and the one to Ladislaus von Szögyény-Marich. But the content in those to Elisabeth and to Marie Valerie remains fuzzy, despite being quoted at length in various works - most historians have simply relied on what Corti published but comparing Marie Valerie's actual diary entries against what Corti claimed Countess Ida von Ferenczy told him THEY said shows very serious differences.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 04, 2017, 06:47:09 PM
Great post, Greg!

I have been reading about the whole topics, and I simply don't know whom to believe. It is not like in Romanov case, we know they were murdered and that's it.

Is there a possibility that there was political murder, as some believe, that they both were killed by someone in that cold January morning in Mayerling hunting lodge? That is depicted in movie 'Mayerling' from 1949 to make it look like a suicide.

But I somehow sense that their deaths were something personal, something just between them two, like Rudolf's own will to commit suicide. (If we want to believe that he had asked his mistress M. Kaspar to join his fate months before his death in 1889.) Such haunting story, I must admit. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 04, 2017, 09:17:34 PM
Hi Nena,

I WISH I could answer your question but my publisher would kill me if I did as it gives away the last quarter of the book! Again, no one will ever really know what happened but I think our theory is at least closest to the known facts while accounting for things others may have glossed over, explaining some things that have long been conundrums (what, for example, was going on with Loschek's various versions and Bratfisch telling Wodicka that Rudolf was dead at 7AM, BEFORE the bodies had been found?), AND considering some very important forensic evidence that everyone seems to have previously ignored and that helped point us toward our final scenario.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on February 05, 2017, 03:42:52 AM
Hi Nena,

I am glad you are reading up on the events in Mayerling, as I always found them tragically fascinating...so many lies and contradictions. I never thought that there would be any new developments but now thanks to Greg there are and I am really looking forward to the new book.

Greg, I totally understand and that is why I deliberately refrained from asking for more details about your conclusions...I am happy to wait until the book is published. The issue of Bratfisch telling Wodicka that Rudolf was dead at 7AM, BEFORE the bodies had been found has always stuck in my mind. Bratfisch must have known a great deal more than he admitted but never told anybody. Seemingly he received money from the court and horses from the imperial stables to ensure his silence, but according to reports (from his daughter I think) he was a changed man after Mayerling as he became very depressed and morose. He later developed cancer and died.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 05, 2017, 09:08:40 PM
Thanks Greenowl - I HOPE it's worth the impatient waiting.

There are so many little details that, when strung together, have been used to support the most outrageous theories, whereas it seems that the truth is often simple but has been fogged by years of conspiracies.  Both Loschek and Bratfisch indeed received substantial funds - there are even stories that Bratfisch was for a while in New York in 1890, having been dispatched there by the court to avoid journalists (given that he liked to drink and freely talk when drunk).  But things like the issue of Wodicka hearing at 7AM are, I think, resolved when everything is pulled together - but it's been (a LOT) like a locked room mystery or Chinese puzzle box trying to figure out and weigh the various claims.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on February 06, 2017, 02:40:05 AM
Thanks Greg,

I am sure it will be well worth the wait, especially as I never expected there would be any new developments. Good luck with the remaining work on the book and roll on December!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: amelia on February 07, 2017, 12:24:44 PM
I can not wait to read it.

Eva McDonald
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 07, 2017, 08:26:01 PM
I hope it's worth the wait - it was a long slog of research to even try to assemble a cogent theory - which changed more than once as the evidence did - until a final assessment set the boundaries which helped us render what I hope is a highly plausible theory.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 08, 2017, 02:02:13 PM
I have never doubted in your writing skills, mr King. I got my copy of 'FOTR' years ago and I found it amazingly detailed book, you simply see effort and time spent for the book to be done.   

See what I found (IMO, photos of the original hunting lodge are hard to find, I am aware only of two photos), but this one photo is the hunting lodge taken backwards, at the entrance of courtyard.
That were the gate through which Mary Vetsera's was taken by her uncles to be buried the day after tragedy:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/th_skmbt_c22014072910500_zpsze3lazxh.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/nemanjapr/media/skmbt_c22014072910500_zpsze3lazxh.jpg.html)

One simply has to ask himself - was Rudolf really able to commit a murder? His daughter was barely 6, I always think of her.

If that tragedy hadn't have happened, maybe he would have been an Emperor, maybe Franz Ferdinand wouldn't be Heir, maybe Sarajevo murders would not happen in 1914, the WW1 started, Empires vanished and maybe we would not post here now at this forum and meet other great people such you are....What a connection between people, don't you think? :) 

If that was political murder, how would you explain farewell letters [unless he and Mary was forced to wrote thos. (I doubt, but many possibilities and theories come to your head)]. Why Empress Sissi supposedly wasn't allowed to see Rudolf's hands, they could have shown wounds? And so on -- many questions, no exact answers.

Best regards,

N.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on February 08, 2017, 03:50:34 PM
Serious point. Rudolf was in very poor health and, I understand, addicted to opiates. I rather doubt that he would have outlived his father. If that were the case, then, as Rudolf had no son FF would have been heir anyway.

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 08, 2017, 09:28:18 PM
The letters were indeed written by Mary and by Rudolf - no doubt about it.  Which, on the face of it, suggests a suicide pact.  But what ultimately happened, it seems, was actually different.  I think I can say, though, that the story that Sisi wasn't allowed to view Rudolf's hands is a bit of nonsense that a few authors have repeated without bothering to do some serious research.

I can safely say that all the romantic nonsense about them dying for love is just that - nonsense.  We found some stunning information that I think puts this notion to rest once and for all.

As for Rudolf, he was QUITE unstable mentally and physically.  As Kalafrana says, I seriously doubt he would have managed to survive until 1916 to succeed his father - his gonorrhea, drug use, and alcohol use were all destroying his health.

Some sort of tragedy was probably inevitable with him - his whole tormented life had been building up to a cataclysm.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 20, 2017, 03:38:23 PM
I agree that the truth is often simple - it is greatest truth of all times in my opinion.

Yes, one should asks himself would really Rudolf live that long. I agree. But we can never know.

As for Mary's farewell letters, in fact I doubt that they were 'recently, newly discovered' -- several fragments are reproduced in 'Idol's End' by Claude Annet.

Also, reading about Mary Von Vetsera, I see nothing but 17 year old girl, young, naive fatally fallen in love with Crown-prince. Seriously. I can bet she was ready to do anything for him.

On the other hand, I can't decide what to say about Prince - he seriously had hard life burdens making him desperate and unbalanced.

In history, I love the chronology for most : So Prince arrived at Mayerling Castle on 28th January 1889 at 15:30h, and Mary on that same day but several hours later? What fascinates me, policies and spy-agents were controlling Prince's steps months earlier from what I have understood. So they knew precisely every his step. 

Also, is possible to know whether the pair met in early November of 1888 or earlier, in the spring of 1888  (April 12th) at Prater or elsewhere as described in Annet's (romanticized, I must admit) book?

I wish people who witnessed the whole events said more in their testimonies, memories (such as Marie Larish or Bratfish, Loscheck and Hoyos) .

Also, one question that strikes me - how many bullets were fired...? One, two? Some accounts say even five that were removed from Mayerling's bedroom. If there were more than 2 fired, one has to ask were those fired by Prince. It is just my mind that ask logical questions, never mind.   
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 20, 2017, 09:36:44 PM
Hi Nena,

The first purported versions of some of Mary's letters began circulating in the French press the week of February 10 (Figaro, Le Gaulois, Le Matin).  The Vetsera Denkschrift, which contained versions of Mary's letters to her mother, to her sister Hannah, and to her brother Franz, was published at the end of May 1889.  But as I say, there are very significant differences between the alleged content of the letters as given in the Vetsera Denkschrift (and repeated in numerous books since) and what we now know since the discovery of the actual letters, as to their content.  There are numerous lines in Mary's letters that, until the actual letters were found, were said to have been there but are not.  So the content of Mary's letters was only known from newspapers and from the Vetsera Denkschrift until they real items were found.

Rudolf and Mary arrived at the lodge together, around 5PM on the afternoon of Monday, January 28, though Rudolf rather ungallantly had her get out of the carriage and hide herself in a copse of trees while Bratfisch took HIM to the lodge, then doubled back to collect Mary and bring her in through the side gateway.

As to the number of bullets: there is absolutely no reliable evidence that more than two were fired - accounts that speak of a number of bullets found in the walls and furniture, or that all the bullets were missing from the revolver when found (which, in and of itself would mean nothing unless we knew how many bullets had been loaded to begin with) are all at best second and often third or fourth hand, and often based on nothing more than rumors.



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 21, 2017, 01:14:02 AM
Fascinating answer, Mr. Greg, thank you.


Rudolf and Mary arrived at the lodge together, around 5PM on the afternoon of Monday, January 28, though Rudolf rather ungallantly had her get out of the carriage and hide herself in a copse of trees while Bratfisch took HIM to the lodge, then doubled back to collect Mary and bring her in through the side gateway.


That what I am talking about - so many different accounts and stories. This one seems to be very exact and detailed, thank you. So Mary hid at first, and then entered the lodge afterwards.

Quote
The first purported versions of some of Mary's letters began circulating in the French press the week of February 10 (Figaro, Le Gaulois, Le Matin).  The Vetsera Denkschrift, which contained versions of Mary's letters to her mother, to her sister Hannah, and to her brother Franz, was published at the end of May 1889.  But as I say, there are very significant differences between the alleged content of the letters as given in the Vetsera Denkschrift (and repeated in numerous books since) and what we now know since the discovery of the actual letters, as to their content.  There are numerous lines in Mary's letters that, until the actual letters were found, were said to have been there but are not.  So the content of Mary's letters was only known from newspapers and from the Vetsera Denkschrift until they real items were found.

Really good research and information! :)

Also, one must asks himself, how many people were present in those January days, I believe there was household (?), like several servants, or even guards? 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 21, 2017, 02:30:52 AM
In addition to Rudolf and Mary, present at Mayerling were the following people

Johann Loschek, Saaltürhüter (Hall porter) and occasional valet
Alois Zwerger, Schlosswarter (Schloss Warden)
F. Strubreiter, lodge caretaker
N. Strubreiter, lodge maid
Leonard Weckerle, Schloss gardener
Friedrich Wolfe, Schloss carpenter
Sedlak, Schloss orderly
Baumgartner, Schloss staff
F. Kathe, cook
Franz Wodicka, Kammerbüchsenspanner (Gun loader)
Julius Schuldes (Telegraphist)
Count Hoyos
Jakob Zak, Kamerdiener to Hoyos
August Kianek, Personal Huntsman to Hoyos
Josef Bratfisch
Joseph Wedl, Police post commander assigned to Mayerling
Thomas Albrecht, Police sentry assigned to Mayerling
Laurenz Lebert, police official from Baden
Karl Laferl, Schloss servant
Count Reinhard von Leiningen-Westerburg and his wife (lived in villa on the estate)

So 21 people in addition to Rudolf and Mary!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on February 21, 2017, 06:58:32 AM
21 people, but most of them servants, as one might expect at an aristocratic hunting lodge at that time.

ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 21, 2017, 01:16:02 PM
So, 23 in total. That is the number of Ipatiev's house stairway that the IF and their 4 retainers walked into death in the night of 17th july 1918.

But, thank you for the whole list - you can not find that list elsewhere on the net.  I am amazed. Quite deep and detailed research, I dare to notice. Just like history has to be.

I believe that, besides Bratfish, Hoyos and Loschek, someone else from the list also must have had written/spoken anything about the tragedy. I have read that the snow was deep so Prince and Bratfish had to go out of carriage and push it to make it (carriage) go properly while on road to Mayerling.
 
Also, I believe Loscheck wrote that they apparently did not know Mary was present but female presence could be clearly sensed at the lodge, and how he couldn't even imagine that he shaken Prince's hand for the last time in the evening of 29th January.

Also, there is clear evidence of what the Prince had dined for his last dinner. I want to tell that many details are known and clear -  until it comes to the fateful morning of January 30th. Also, from what I have understood, Prince was alive in that morning too.     

Again, thanks for making the thread alive.

Anyway, if circumstances would allow me, I would buy the book. FOTR also was great enjoy.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on February 21, 2017, 04:49:52 PM
What about Philipp of Coburg? I understood that he was at Mayerling too? Or did he only arrive after the bodies were found?

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 21, 2017, 09:37:30 PM
I forgot

Mauritz Loffler, who was a huntsman at Mayerling
Karl Ratschek, Jaeger
Kubitschka, forester

So three more people - but after re-checking the list I think this is complete - it represents only those at the lodge on the night of January 29, so Philipp of Coburg is excluded as he was in Vienna at the Hofburg dinner for Marie Valerie (though where he went after that remains unknown - he didn't go home, so perhaps he was with a mistress)

Of all of these people, Loschek, Hoyos, Wolf, and Loffler left accounts; Bratfisch WAS interviewed by the police and portions of that remain in the files, while his daughter Antonia Konhäuser later filled in details.

But if anyone else wrote an account it has yet to come to light.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on February 22, 2017, 01:43:20 PM
Amazing research Greg...I am impressed as I had never heard of some of those people who were present in Mayerling on that fateful night, including Weckerle, Sedlac, Loffler and Ratschek. Roll on December!
Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 22, 2017, 07:57:17 PM
This stuff didn't even make it into the book, owing to its length - just the number of people there. Unfortunately there is a LOT of this sort of interesting but extraneous information that while fascinating had to be cut - so we're happy and free to share it!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on February 23, 2017, 09:01:08 AM
Thanks Greg! By the way, how many pages will the book contain?

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: amelia on February 23, 2017, 11:38:01 AM
Can't wait to read this book.
Eva McDonald
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 23, 2017, 08:05:55 PM
Thanks for all the kind comments!  I'm not yet sure how many pages - we're still in basic editorial processes at the moment - I would guess it would be around 350 published, perhaps.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on February 24, 2017, 03:17:08 AM
Thanks for that information and best of luck with the editing.

Cheers,
(a very excited) GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 26, 2017, 04:19:53 PM
Good luck from me as well in editing the book.


I have wondered, for how long the Prince was supposed to stay at Mayerling lodge, is there any evidence about his plans, how long did he plan to stay there? He didn't use to stay long when hunting, two days or so?

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 26, 2017, 08:32:28 PM
Originally he was to go around the first of February and stay for a few days (usually 2-3 at most was standard), but he changed his mind twice, as events unfolded between January 26-28, and thus made a decision to go out on January 28 - so abruptly that he still had two meetings left on his schedule for that Monday afternoon.

Hoyos and Coburg were asked to come from January 29-30, so Rudolf was supposed to be back in Vienna on Thursday, January 31.

The evidence about Mary, though, is quite different and it is apparent she only went to the lodge on the spur of the moment after Rudolf asked her to do so at their meeting at the Hofburg on the morning of January 28.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 27, 2017, 02:33:01 PM
Great answer, thank you.

Well, from all shown, he intentionally went there and intentionally invited her. I don't know whether he had ever gone with any other mistress so far outside the Vienna.  The whole thing seems to be covered-up, especially from officials and I doubt if the case was ever seriously investigated - the results from prince's (authentic) autopsy would say much more, if there exists anything like that.

But interesting, there were over 20 people present there, but only Loscheck and Hoyos right at crime scene, and their accounts differ.   

Anyway, I believe it was Rudolf's moment of weakness that led to tragedy. May those who passed rest in peace.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 27, 2017, 09:29:41 PM
Some of those who were there had relatives who later gave what they claimed were accounts passed on to them (this happened mainly in the 1930s-1950s).  But on the whole, these extra accounts (I think there might have been 3-4) were not from eye-witnesses, and made a number of highly contradictory claims (even contradicting themselves internally) that make their content suspect.

I would say, with some hesitation, that only Hoyos was close to telling the truth, but even there, we know he included erroneous information and also likely invented part of his story to protect himself, as hopefully we'll show in the book.

The real keys in attempting to reconstruct this (at least for us) were twofold: a full psychological analysis of Rudolf, Mary and those around them (thankfully we had a forensic psychologist who had consulted with the prosecution in the Jody Arias murder case to go over everything in detail), and the forensic details surrounding the deaths. Although I don't necessarily find her that sympathetic, my opinion of Mary has changed, because she was being used and victimized by everyone (Rudolf, her mother, Larisch, etc.).  And she was, after all, a 17-year-old girl, immature and full of misplaced romantic notions that would never have occurred to the jaded Rudolf.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on March 16, 2017, 07:13:36 AM
I just have to ask a question : Did the Crown Prince (after waking up) have a breakfast on that morning 30th January, then came back to the bedroom or he didn't wake up at all in the morning?

I feel like being Mr. Hercule Poirot with these detailed questions. :D (Sorry for topic-off).

Also, I again find te list of the people who were present great. When the lodge was converted into a monastery, in the next, 1890?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on March 16, 2017, 10:08:29 PM
Hi Nena,

No breakfast.  According to Loschek, Rudolf came out of his room at 6:10AM briefly and asked Loschek to order breakfast.  Rudolf then went back inside, and Loschek started to go out of the lodge and cross the courtyard to the kitchen when he claimed to have heard two gunshots.  This last assertion is highly unlikely.

Franz Josef ordered the lodge turned into a monastery 22 days after Rudolf's death, but construction went on for several years. The main work on the chapel was finished in November and Franz Josef, Sisi, and Marie Valerie attended a memorial service there on the first anniversary in 1890.  But construction continued over the next few years, so that the building is basically unrecognizable and only a couple of servants rooms remain as they were.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Joanna on March 20, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
It was interesting to read Alexander Polovtsov's diary on the death of Rudolf. It is difficult though to ascertain if he continues to refer to the Grand Duke's comments or if he had other sources to explain connection of Jesuits.

Joanna
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on March 20, 2017, 03:35:54 PM
  This last assertion is highly unlikely.
Really? Interesting.

Quote
The main work on the chapel was finished in November and Franz Josef, Sisi, and Marie Valerie attended a memorial service there on the first anniversary in 1890.
No Crown Princess Stephanie? Sad.
Quote
But construction continued over the next few years, so that the building is basically unrecognizable and only a couple of servants rooms remain as they were.
I am agreed.

Anyway, so many interesting details are about to be uncovered in book and I am glad about it. However, I am curious about autopsy (There was one on Crown Prince, right?) - I can imagine that many things might have been covered up by the officials. 

In October 2013, I was just 500 m near Mayerling where the tragedy occurred, I took a photo from the car, you can see names of two fateful places on the 'table' : Mayerling and Alland. Alland is the place Mary Vetsera mentioned in her farewell letter, wishing to be buried in Alland's graveyard.

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/th_03102013336_zpsmoxsnuji.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/nemanjapr/media/03102013336_zpsmoxsnuji.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on March 20, 2017, 08:52:52 PM
Hi Joanna,

Now I'm curious...what was said (if you can share)? Of course the rumors were rampant and among them were that Rudolf was killed by this or that faction (political/religious/foreign) to remove him for some bigger purpose.  Personally I think such theories give Rudolf far too much credit as someone who could have even remotely succeeded on the throne.

Best,

Greg

It was interesting to read Alexander Polovtsov's diary on the death of Rudolf. It is difficult though to ascertain if he continues to refer to the Grand Duke's comments or if he had other sources to explain connection of Jesuits.

Joanna
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on March 20, 2017, 08:58:59 PM
Hi Nena,

As I think we'll hopefully explain and show, Loschek really was not a reliable witness, especially given that he didn't write his memoirs until nearly 30 years later.  What he meant to do was protect himself, we think, from charges of complicity or incompetence.

Stephanie was at Miramar with Erszi for the first anniversary - no surprise given how Sisi treated her after Rudolf's death.  She simply did not want to be around the Habsburgs and suffer their snide remarks and condemnatory looks, as if she was to blame for what happened.

There was indeed an autopsy but only a short segment released to the press - meant to "prove" that Rudolf was not sane at the time of his death - was ever released.  The original if it survives is probably with those enigmatic Taaffe papers, which are an exercise in frustration as every other author on Mayerling found out.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Joanna on March 22, 2017, 08:55:39 AM
Greg, here is the typed Russian version as it may be easier to understand Polovtsov's diary entry:

7 марта 1889 Вторник. Посылаю Балашеву редакцию статей устава Нового клуба. В 45/2 часа приезжает из Вены и поселяется у нас старинный наш приятель кн. Лобанов, рассказывает ркасные и нравственно отвратительные подробности о личности самоубийцы эрцгерцога Рудольфа.

5 ноября 1890 Понедельник. В 11 час. у вел. кн. Михаила Николаевича, предлагаю ему перевести в Департамент законов из Департамента экономии Менгдена, чтобы, таким образом, подкрепить ослабленный выбытием Перетца и Старицкого Департамент законов, подкрепить элементом почтенным, а не взятым в редакции "Гражданина", как, например, сенатор Татищев, о коем Мещерский уже начал писать хвалебные статьи.

Одновременно, таким образом, очищается место адмиралу Пещурову, которому государь выразил намерение дать занятия в Совете и Который в Департаменте экономии может действительно принести пользу.

Комбинация эта еще имеет ту пользу, что затем посторонние Совету силы, прибавлю, невежественные силы, вроде Дурново, не могут

"А затем, ваше высочество, император говорит вам нежности, к которым, он считает, вы чувствительны".
обвинять в слабосилии Департамент законов и стараться навязать нам своих сподручников. Если к 1 января зайдет речь о назначении новых членов, то можно будет толковать лишь о подкреплении Гражданского департамента, а туда поневоле надо назначать юристов.

Вел. кн. Михаил Николаевич едет на похороны одного из бывших своих подчиненных, а я отправляюсь завтракать с вел. кн. Владимиром Александровичем в Новый клуб. По обыкновению при разговоре с глазу на глаз он передает интересные факты и суждения.

В последнюю бытность в Берлине вел. князь просил императора Вильгельма сообщить, что ему известно об обстоятельствах смерти эрцгерцога Рудольфа. Император отвечал, что он вызвал принца Филиппа Кобургского, чтобы от него узнать подробности этого ужасного события, так как принц Кобургский находился в этот день на охоте с покойным, но на просьбу императора принц Кобургский отвечал, что он в числе прочих лиц, участвовавших в охоте, должен был, по желанию австрийского императора, принести ему клятву, что никогда никому не скажет ни слова о том, как дело было.
На основании других сообщений и тайных сведений германский император подозревает, что наследник австрийского престола пал жертвою ненависти иезуитов, коим выказывал явное нерасположение, к клерикалам вообще и иезуитам в особенности. Незадолго до смерти эрцгерцог Рудольф имел бурное объяснение с пражским архиереем, который в порыве гнева произнес даже угрозы. На брата императора эрцгерцога Карла-Людвига, известного своим сочувствием к клерикалам, падает подозрение в том, что он был в заговоре. Подозрение это еще подтверждается и тем, что после смерти Рудольфа он, Карл-Людвиг, предложил разобрать все бумаги племянника, ликвидировал все его дела, не говоря ни слова опечаленному отцу, от которого впоследствии получил всю израсходованную им на ликвидацию сумму. Последние подробности вел. князю передавал принц Альберт Саксен-Альтенбургский, охотившийся нынче осенью по приглашению государя в Спале.

Joanna
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on March 22, 2017, 09:17:18 PM
Thanks Joanna!  I love his "morally disgusting details" about Rudolf but wish he had included them!  Karl Ludwig being behind it has been around for a long time and suspicions about Jesuits even longer - when a Habsburg dies (as with Franz Ferdinand and Sophie) someone ALWAYS blames the Jesuits.  But it sounds as if the Kaiser is just running with wild speculation here - same as everyone else at the time.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Joanna on March 23, 2017, 10:18:38 AM
Greg, when I first read years ago Polovtsov's diary entry on 'Jesuits', I thought it doubtful. Since then, I have read of the nefarious efforts by Jesuits prior to Ludwig of Bavaria's abdication in 1848 and it seems plausible.

Joanna
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on March 23, 2017, 10:28:22 PM
Well...certainly in 1848 they were at the center of things in Bavaria, Austria, etc. But in all honesty, I think I can safely say that they had nothing whatsoever to do with what happened at Mayerling (or in Sarajevo, for that matter).   Of course the Kaiser is merely speculating here - just like everyone else - and given that the finger of blame has pointed at him (and/or Bismarck) it just shows how little everyone really knew.  The Court had only itself to blame, but so many of the conspiracy theories were spewed out by courtiers and Habsburg relatives, most contradicting themselves.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Joanna on March 24, 2017, 06:27:00 PM
Greg,  have you searched archives for diaries, letters etc of Prince Lobanov? Would he have written dispatches etc besides verbally speaking with Polovtsov on the Rudolf suicide? What did he tell Alexander III? It is off topic for my research at the moment but now I am curious of this Ambassador!

Joanna
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on March 24, 2017, 09:45:45 PM
I confess no - there are some Russian dispatches from Vienna that we made use of, but in accessing diplomatic files from Austria, Germany and England it became clear fairly early that no one knew what they were really talking about - everyone (even diplomats) was wildly speculating - they all knew enough of the basics - two dead bodies at Mayerling, Mary was Rudolf's mistress, etc. - but beyond that everyone was simply spreading gossip.  So while we might, I suppose, chased the Russians down it became something of a fool's errand in light of what had been accessed already.  There might be a few interesting bits there to be uncovered, but I would have serious doubts, especially given the relationship between Russia and Austria-Hungary at the time, that the Russians would have been in any better position than the Germans to pick up any unique information.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on April 23, 2017, 05:14:03 AM
It is interesting to see foreign's point of view on the affair.

Also, several things still strike my mind - it seems unclear how did Mary die, since from what I have read, her skull was damaged and no traces of bullet hole was found, what allegedly suggested that she died due to severe wounds at her head done by rigid item?

Since if she had been shot hours before Rudolf, how no one heard the gunshot?

I really can't wait the book to be released.

I also would like to know (in anyone's opinion)  what makes Mayerling affair mysterious? I believe that logical explaination must exists. I also wonder does the book starts long before January of 1889 or it is focused mainly in 1889...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on April 23, 2017, 07:56:30 PM
Hi Nena,

Alas, answers to some of your questions we cannot yet discuss, but these questions are answered in the book.  As for the book itself, it starts in 1889.  Part I dips back in time for five chapters to outline Rudolf and Mary and their relationship, then Part II returns to 1889 and gives a straightforward account of events until their respective funerals.  Part III looks at all of the theories, and Part IV lays out, while looking back and trying to explain some incidents previously mentioned, what we feel happened.

Best,

Greg
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on April 25, 2017, 12:53:09 AM
Hi Greg,

thank you for your explanation and for your patience and time to answer. I hope that we will get something closest to the truth. There is even theory that the couple were killed by Balatzi's, when they wanted to pick Mary back home. I believe that Mary was to die first, and then Rudolf in the morning, not during the night.

Nena.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Maria Sisi on October 29, 2017, 11:35:41 PM
A reminder for people in the United States that Greg and Penny's book on Rudolf and the Mayerling tragedy, "Twilight of Empire: The Tragedy at Mayerling and the End of the Habsburgs" will be available on November 14th on amazon!

I'm beyond excited. The libraries in my neck of the woods have nothing on Rudolf or Mayerling. So all information I get on the subject is due to online research or the brief chapters/mentions in books about the last century of the empire. The most information I got from a library book was from Brigette Hamann's bio. on his mother.

It will be wonderful to read on the subject on sources up to date! 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on November 03, 2017, 07:14:02 AM
I'm beyond excited. The libraries in my neck of the woods have nothing on Rudolf or Mayerling. So all information I get on the subject is due to online research or the brief chapters/mentions in books about the last century of the empire. The most information I got from a library book was from Brigette Hamann's bio. on his mother.

It will be wonderful to read on the subject on sources up to date! 
I agree, I agree. I hope that we can expect many unknown details.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on November 03, 2017, 06:57:40 PM
Excellent news! I will order my copy next week and am really looking forward to an interesting read.
Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on November 03, 2017, 09:19:11 PM
Thanks....I've been posting some extra material on Facebook as well.  I hope it's worth the wait!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 04, 2017, 03:27:21 AM
When is it coming out in the UK?

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on November 04, 2017, 08:42:29 AM
I've read on somewhere that Rudolf's dog was also found dead at Mayerling's hunting lodge - is that again just a conspiracy or ?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on November 04, 2017, 09:23:55 PM
I think the UK release is early December - US is November 16 if I recall correctly.

To the best of my knowledge, none of Rudolf's dogs were found dead at the lodge - definitely sounds like the remnants of some conspiracy theory!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 05, 2017, 02:11:19 AM
Thanks - my Christmas reading then.

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on November 05, 2017, 03:44:06 AM
That probably applies to Germany as well, but for some reason I had December (and Christmas) in mind since I first heard about the book, so I am not too disappointed about having to wait for an extra four weeks!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 04, 2018, 05:57:06 AM
I bought the book and read it within a week or less, today I finished it. Accidentally or not, I started reading it on January 29th 2018.
It left me stunned -- it has widened my knowledge and I have learned a lot about the Crown Prince and the whole Mayerling affair. Especially all those details! 

Having looked at Vetsera sisters' photo, I noticed that the two sisters had completely different facial features, for almost sure I could recognize Albin Vetsera's feautures at Hanna and Helene Vetsera's features in Mary. That's has always been my notice. Like if Mary wasn't Albin's daughter. And I have always found Loscheck's story on hearing two shots one after another very suspicious/unlikely. Now I am almost sure of my previous thesis that no third persona was present on the fateful night January 29/30th.

I must admit that, after reading book, I felt sorry for both of Rudolf and Mary - at the end, they were only human beings. Yet psychologically damaged and under influence of all the people surrounding them. Rudolf certainly had had loveless childhood and had been misunderstood throughout his youth and early adulthood, his ideas and visions had not been taken seriously. 

Well done, I completely love the new view/conclusion (based on psychological analysis and very scarce evidence/testimonies) of what happened between them two in that locked Rudolf's room within snow-bounded lodge.  I love how the lodge is depicted, I wish it still existed. You can find the lodge's plans and its reconstructions on the Internet.   

Well done Mr King, Penny Wilson and the others,  the book is highly recommended, for putting your time and effort in chronologically re-collecting the events.

I found that Rudolf visited my homeland, Serbia, along with Crown Princess Stephanie - in 1884.
 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greenowl on February 07, 2018, 03:09:05 PM
I read the book at Christmas and would totally recommend it. I find the conclusion in Chapter 19 very plausible and I noted one interesting fact that has been glossed over or disregarded in other publications on the subject. However, I want to read the chapter again before commenting on it (and I also don't wish to spoil the book for those who have not yet had the pleasure of reading it).

The book highlights the shocking fact that although so many members of the imperial family were aware of the Crown Prince's mental state and were even afraid of him, no action was taken and when Crown Princess Stephanie mentioned it she was ignored and made to feel that she had done something wrong.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 07, 2018, 08:23:59 PM
Thanks Nena and Greenowl, I'm so glad you enjoyed it.  Feel free to ask any questions!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on February 08, 2018, 02:48:53 AM
I have just finished reading the book and was very impressed. The conclusion is realistic, giving a detailed context for murder and suicide, and all the conspiracy theories are comprehensively debunked.

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 09, 2018, 01:05:19 AM
I have a question in fact -- from what we read in Mary Vetsera's farewell letters, we many conclude that she was completely aware of what is going of happen, that she willingly goes to death? Is that correct?
----------------------------------------------------------

For those who want to know more :

Hunting lodge at Mayerling was officially opened on October 19th ad 20th 1887 (had been previously bought in 1886 by Crown Prince), and since November 1887 up to January 1889 only ten hunting's were performed. Rudolf's wife and daughter also visited lodge in June in 1888.  Crown Princess Stephanie described the interior of the lodge. I wish we knew more on lodge's 1st floor, there were Stephanie's rooms?


After his son's death, Emperor Franz Joseph visited the Carmelitian monastery only 8 times while the Empress did it 4 times. Emperor outlived his son for 27 years but visited the place only 8 times, as  if he wanted to forget everything.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 09, 2018, 10:01:02 PM
We think (although everything is of course speculative) that the evidence indicates she went to the lodge with no idea that she was going to die.  At the lodge on the night of January 29 when she learned everything had fallen apart and Rudolf wanted to send her away, she decided she would die with him.  And of course we then think that he tried to get her to leave and that her death wasn't something he wanted but which happened on the spur of the moment.  She was prepared to die, but Rudolf wasn't prepared to have her die with him, or even have her remain with him at the lodge.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 19, 2018, 01:36:23 AM
I see. Thanks. 

But one thing is pretty weird - given the fact Rudolf killed Mary and got up something after six to order a breakfast, how come that Losheck didn't see him (Prince) being blood-shattered? I mean, them two talked. Maybe he washed himself in toilet? Or simply Loscheck didn't tell the whole story, that's.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on February 19, 2018, 04:07:39 AM
The book does strongly suggest that Loscheck did not tell the whole truth.

Loscheck claimed to have heard two shoots some time after he met Rudolf shortly after six, but rigor mortis showed that Mary had already been dead for several hours before the bodies were found. So the first shot was fired some time during the night. How was it that Loscheck did not hear it (a revolver shot in the same building is quite enough to wake someone up), or, if he heard it, did not get up to investigate?

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 19, 2018, 04:17:06 AM
From what I have understood, he indeed heard it - the first shot killing Mary! But Rudolf might have persuaded him that he accidentally fired the revolver, calming Loscheck that everything is fine. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 19, 2018, 08:05:27 PM
Not to get too graphic but with Rudolf, per a forensics specialist, leaning over at the left edge of the book, extending his arm out to point the gun at an upright Mary on the right side, he was far enough back that the blow back of blood or brain tissue that might have speckled him was minimal - perhaps some on the cuff of his jacket but the velocity of the shot was so rapid that it would have Mary hurling back against the headboard and then most of the damage came when the bullet exited the head on the right side of her head (the side away from Rudolf)

So not likely that he would have been covered in blood.  And yes, the Loscheck problem - one just never knows how much to believe of what he said, especially as he is so often contradicted by the facts!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on February 20, 2018, 06:44:03 AM
I see, thanks. How about Friedrich Wolf's account -- it is brief but it depicts that Rudolf's room was all in chaos, saying how Rudolf and Mary died while fighting/and someone third killed her. I know that's untrue but I am asking about his account on the tragedy. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: Greg_King on February 21, 2018, 09:44:10 PM
Well, there are some serious problems with Wolfe.  First, he waited until 1942 to say anything, so many years after many involved people were arguing what had happened in the press.  Then in his statement he claimed that he had told this same story "many times" to others, yet we couldn't find any record of someone repeating it.  Third, he claimed that he was on his way to the lodge on the morning of January 30 to polish the floors IN ADVANCE of Rudolf's arrival, when in fact Rudolf had been there two days.  He also claimed that he "heard the truth of what happened from others," suggesting he was relying on a fair bit of gossip.  He said it was roughly two weeks after the deaths that he supposedly saw the bedroom.  Now Court Commissioner Heinrich Slatin had done an inventory and assessment of the room on January 30 and 31, and he recorded no bloodstains splattered around the room, no bullet holes, no smashed furniture, etc.  You could dismiss him as part of some conspiracy but just stop to think about how illogical Wolf's claim is: the court is desperate to cover up the truth of what happened, but they don't do anything to clean up evidence of violence in the room for two weeks, then ask Wolf -- certainly not a trusted courtier -- to come in and clean it all up.  Do we really think the Imperial Court would have left the room in such a condition for two weeks if they were engaged in a conspiracy other than hiding that Rudolf had killed Mary?  Or that they would let some provincial carpenter in to do the clean up?  It makes no sense.  Then, too, Wolf insists that Rudolf and Mary were killed at the same time, taken by surprise by assassins - so what of the suicide notes?  What of the differences in their times of death?  Unfortunately Mayerling is full of this sort of thing - it's going through the looking glass where many people claim things that just don't hold up!

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on March 09, 2018, 05:33:57 AM
Yes, I see. Thank you so much. How about Julius Schuldes, the Mayerling's telegraphist, he also left the account.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
Post by: nena on January 23, 2019, 08:02:40 AM
Another thing has came upon my mind - did Mary really bring a poison, drank it and Prince shot her afterwards?