Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => French Royals => Topic started by: veu-1 on November 20, 2007, 03:13:43 PM

Title: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: veu-1 on November 20, 2007, 03:13:43 PM
Other pics:



(http://i17.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/c4/fc/7d99_1.JPG)

(http://photos.liveauctioneers.com/houses/galeriebassengeberlin/14285/5325_1_lg.jpg)

(http://i12.tinypic.com/8avguj9.jpg)

(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/4702/portraitmakucharskysp2.jpg)

(http://i16.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/c2/e7/c098_1.JPG)

(http://i21.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/c2/e6/ea83_1.JPG)

(http://i18.ebayimg.com/07/i/000/c2/e6/9fdd_1.JPG)

(http://i14.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/c2/e8/267a_1.JPG)

(http://i22.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/c2/e2/ea23_1.JPG)

(http://i3.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/c2/e3/1b23_1.JPG)

(http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/000/c2/fc/ee19_1.JPG)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: veu-1 on November 20, 2007, 03:19:43 PM
(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3893/mtav1.jpg)

(http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Spanish-School/Interview-of-Marie-Antoinette-and-Cagliostro-at-the-Petit-Trianon-Giclee-Print-C12061143.jpeg)

(http://gutenberg.net.au/widger/courtmemoir/marielouis.jpg)

(http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/9720/ma1tq7.jpg)

(http://img464.imageshack.us/img464/3403/ma2wc6.jpg)

(http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/649/ma3fn7.jpg)

(http://img394.imageshack.us/my.php?image=7a843yo3.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: gogm on November 20, 2007, 08:17:08 PM
The set of black and white engravings from Veu1 are great! Are they around in a larger size? :)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: gorgeousbutterfly on August 31, 2008, 02:02:02 AM
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ZAHVhkyLZsA/RxMlLrJ1h_I/AAAAAAAAByo/TNT1QblEAqA/IMG_0364.JPG

its very creepy because it looks like a real photo.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Lisa on September 01, 2008, 05:21:31 AM
It not a photo, it's a drawing of the 19th  century by François Alphonse:
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CSearchZ.aspx?o=&Total=6&FP=15027235&E=2K1KTS050YIU&SID=2K1KTS050YIU&New=T&Pic=4&SubE=2C6NU0N5XGHI
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: imperial angel on November 25, 2008, 09:32:33 PM
I don't think MA was really innocent or guilty. I agree that the system in France was corrupt and ripe to fall. Louis XVI was intelligent, he studied history, and knew you couldn't rule by force, like another poster mentioned. I feel he had some perception, but he did not have the will, circumstances, or charisma to implement what he could at times percieve. He was weak enough anyway, and weaker when faced with a corrupt system. MA wasn't a traitor- she just believed in her own values with regards to the monarchy, and she was concerned perhaps more with herself at times than she ought to have been. History writes her off as frivolous- but she was only that when younger. She was about 14 upon her arrival in France. She had alot of responsibility on her shoulders at a young age and may not have seen that, since she acted as she naturally would have, not in accordance with her role all the time. Indeed, if the kingdom/ system in france had been more stable, MA would be remembered more like Alix of Wales- that's correct. As MA grew older she got more responsible. Hardly surprising. She was not suited to the tumultous times she lived in, and like her husband for different reasons became a victim of her times.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Mari on January 31, 2009, 02:07:31 AM
Actually it was in style to be rich, young, beautiful and in debt. I can find my notes if I need to....And she was only 15. The Court was a dangerous mix of factions and as Austria and France had been involved in a War, an Austrian Bride was going to be unpopular! But the Politics of the Court was the most back stabbing rumor filled and the more I read the more I realize that Marie Antoinette should have been sent over at a very early age and grown up at Court to survive it. Even then with jealous Aunts and no privacy at all, just trying to make a small group of People your friends and trust them became the heart of horrible jealousy. The Petit Trianon became a thorn for those that had no admittance and the criticism was unrelenting. I think that only Elizabeth I or Catherine the Great could have survived it! It would have taken that kind of ruthless, political animal to have made it through! And I mean that in the best way....
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: imperial angel on May 05, 2009, 11:26:13 PM
I found a picture of a lock of MA's hair on flickr. The woman took the picture when she visited the British Museum. http://www.flickr.com/photos/echo_29/101001252
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: LillyO on September 07, 2009, 10:59:17 AM
The Revolutionaries were trying to "break" Marie Antoinette when they bought her to trial. They initially had her sitting there under questioning for hours and hours, with barely anything to eat. She was known to have been bleeding heavily (even hemmoriging) and weak. Not to mention the extreme amount of sorrow she must have still been feeling due to the final separation from her children.  A woman does not get over her children being taken away - especially in a couple months time!  So, here we have a woman, in ill health, sad beyond description - and she still managed to rise above all her accusers. I don't think that these morons realized that she was capable of outwitting them.  What a bunch of bullies - all those men ganging up on one woman- it is to her extreme credit that she was able to maintain- I doubt these men could have behaved as well under the same circumstances.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on September 08, 2009, 03:34:34 AM
Like all such show trials, this was not designed to have any ending but one of execution.  Marie Antoinette's answers, though I would absolutely agree they were spirited and dignified, were almost irrelevant in reality and everyone, including her, knew it.  I'm not a fan of Marie Antoinette's, but have always thought these were truly her finest hours.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: King François X on November 14, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
Quote
I wonder how she would have worn the Bleu Diamond (now in the Smithsonmian in D.C.)
Quote

I once read this and I loved it! She had a black velvet hat and she wore it in the middle or band part! You remember how those hats had brims and of course She would have worn it other ways. But what style! I think the whole outfit was black velvet too! :)

Isn't the diamond in her hair in this portrait? http://www.ladyreading.net/marieantoinette/index-en.html
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 17, 2009, 07:39:16 PM
I imagined so!!! I like this enormous whigs with beautiful ornaments... sooo elegant!!!
Marie Antoniette have a pair of them ;-)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: gogm on November 18, 2009, 12:01:12 PM
This is, I believe, the classic exaggerated do...
(http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/12735/2006128910094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2006128910094285158GiOFxO)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on November 18, 2009, 12:14:24 PM
Yes i'm pretty sure its hard to wear this on your head.... and to what i know they never repeated one hairstyle So for one year they have over 1000 and more different hairstyles... And they even showed battles on their hairs....
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 18, 2009, 01:07:29 PM
Well, not really.  First, remember those who wore them were corseted and straight back.  They also knew how to balance, consider the gowns that went with these things. Next, the wigs were constructed over wire frames and not that heavy.  However, they were very tight on the head and many memoirs recount constant headaches.  As the wearers often had  very long hair, it was also incorporated to blend into the "construction" and  offered a more secure foundation to hold the whole thing together. They were just as difficult to get off as to put on though. Sometimes, depending on the occasion,  they wore them overnight and had to sleep in a chair.  A nasty effect from this was head lice. This was especially the case when wearing the famous set-pieces like the ships, bird cages and  battle scenes, landscapes, etc. These were for   very special  events, balls and  cost a fortune so they got as much wear out of them as they could. Styles did change each season and these wigs  became taller as Louis XVI's reign went on.  Although they were considered degenerate  during and after the Revolution, they are still used for fancy dress events. They take a lot of work to create, but wig specialists can do it. [so can most hairdressers, but usually  not on such a large scale]. Theatre & film studios  whip them up  on demand, so it is not a lost art.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on November 18, 2009, 01:25:27 PM
Yes i have read the same... and it's quite interesting... but never knew sometimes they slept on chair...  Ofcourse it has reason but it's quite hard... I think i can get used with the hair thing but with the dresses.... I've read somewhere that the dresses were so ... "big" that they could reach the man only with a hand...something like this i must open and see....

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 18, 2009, 02:39:52 PM
Is it true that the fashion of wearing this big whigs was started with Louis XIII to hide
that he haven't much hair???
Other question... why were the majority of the times this whigs white or nearly gray?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 18, 2009, 02:41:17 PM
This is, I believe, the classic exaggerated do...
(http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/12735/2006128910094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2006128910094285158GiOFxO)
My God!!!! There are several cartoons of this style showing this exaggerated whigs!!!
I'm sure that everyone would suffer pain using this all the day :-(
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 18, 2009, 02:57:04 PM
 In those days, the wigs were powdered with talc. This was long before bleaching & dyeing hair. Just like today, that was the fashion of the era. 
 Louis XIII did not invent wearing wigs.  It started long before him as a way to control  body  lice.  Remember, people did not bathe  as a rule and  hygiene was rather primitive.
 As for the dresses, they were more show than substance. They also were construced around frames, all those layers of   fabric and lace, ribbons, whatever were pretty light weight.  And  easy to get on  & off.  There was not much in between the wearer and the beholder, if you get my drift.  Once one learned how to manipulate them,  they were fairly easy to get around in. You may notice the court balls were designed around dances, The dances were designed around the fashion; which is why the dances of the era were not very intimate. Arms length, so to speak.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 18, 2009, 04:23:31 PM
Yes. Which is why the fashion aftewards went the other direction. Very simple in style like tent dresses and short hair.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 21, 2009, 07:13:10 PM
This is true. Who would not wish to  wear "nartual"  instead of that get up? The elaborate  wigs and gowns were just for court. We off on her own, in the gardens,  she went "casual"
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 23, 2009, 02:17:48 PM
Does anyone know what was Marie Antoinette's real hair color?
I just have seen her wearing whigs
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on November 24, 2009, 07:38:41 AM
Quote
In those days, the wigs were powdered with talc.

The basis of hair powder in the eighteenth century was "the best starch, dried; [also] sometimes, worm eaten or rotten wood, dried bones, or bones calcinated to whiteness.." (description of powder in 1779).  The final product was scented and coloured.  Men almost universally wore wigs with white powder, women wore grey or blue-grey powder in their hair, but blue, lavender and 'flaxen' colours were around.  The dazzling white wigs worn by women in films in modern times were unknown in the eighteenth century.  If women wore wigs - which Marie Antoinette did at various points in her life - it was because their natural hair was too thin, through nature, age or illness, to be made into the huge creations of the 1770s and 1780s.  While most women needed to supplement their hair, and pulled it over structures and pads, they did not wear wigs as a matter of course.

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Mari on November 25, 2009, 05:18:52 AM
Here is the lock of Marie Antoinette's Hair...its a pretty color!

http://rubypr.com/blog/2008/11/25/a-lock-of-marie-antoinettes-hair/

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on November 30, 2009, 07:17:23 PM
Is it true that it became white in just a few days?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 01, 2009, 08:09:56 PM
Is it true that it became white in just a few days?

From what I remember, Marie Antoinette's hair started growing gray or white in 1786 or 1787 (at age 31 or 32) but it was concealed......
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Mari on December 02, 2009, 05:26:31 AM
My notes state:
Madame Campan asserts Marie Antoinette's hair turned white during the journey from Varennes! She also states that MA wrote the Princess Lamballe "Sorrow has bleached my hair!"  Montjoye in his Histoire de Marie Antoinette states that it occurred in the October Days of 1789! In 1789 MA would have been 34 during the Flight and return from Varennes 36 years old!  
Evelyn Farr states it happened in the  ... confinement at the Tuileries on 25 June 1791, her hair turned white...but I am open to an earlier date is there a source for one?  :) I am reading the Secret Memoirs of the Princess Lamballe perhaps that might have something!

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 02, 2009, 07:00:00 PM
The trip back from the flight of Varness...She was jeered at all through the journey. The worrying must have made her hair white.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Mari on December 04, 2009, 02:43:06 AM
The Duchess de Tourzel was Governess and accompanied the Royal Family on the flight from Varennes! These two paragraphs will give you some ideas of the treatment that Marie Antoinette and the Royal Family dealt with.


Quote
The people who surrounded the carriage of the
King made remarks to their Majesties with insolent
familiarity whenever it pleased them, and replied to
their questions with revolting vulgarity. The kind-
ness with which the royal family treated them,
and the patience with which the}'' bore the heat and
the dust, which were excessive, but only appeared to
be felt by them in relation to the suft'erings of the
young Prince and Princess, would have made an im-
pression on less hardened hearts ; but they had only
one feeling — that of rejoicing over the abasement of
the royal family, and their own triumph. It was
happiness to them to overwhelm their unfortunate
Sovereign with chagrin.

We then reached Epernay, where we were
awaited by a most excited and unbridled mob — the
authorities, inhabitants, and the National Guard
were all equally detestable. The mayor presented
the keys of the town to the King. The president
of the district, who accompanied him, allowed him-
self to utter the bitterest remonstrances to his
Majesty, and he wound up his very insolent speech
by saying that he ought to be grateful to the town
for handing its keys to a fugitive King. The crowd,
which thronged the courtyard and the house where
the King was to dine, compelled him to alight at
the door. It indulged in the most fearful remarks,
and one of these monsters was heard to say to his
neighbour, — "Hide me, so that I may fire on the
Queen without anybody knowing where the shot
comes from."
"Memoirs of the Dutchess de Tourzel, Governess to the children of France during the years 1789, 1790, 1791, 1792, 1793 and 1795"
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on December 05, 2009, 05:59:50 PM
Although is true that she spent a considerable amount of money in jewels, in fact it isn't
strange in memebers of the royalty
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Mari on December 06, 2009, 11:11:21 AM
No it isn't unusual and in fact She wasn't nearly as frivolous as claimed read the Memoirs of the Princess Lamballe.. she was only allowed to spend half of the sum of what was allotted to either of the most famous of Louis XV's mistresses. Neither did she have a chance to influence her Husband as factions at the Court made sure the Union wasn't consummated for years. Maria Caroline married a Ruler who went hunting all the time and left the ruling to others. It is true that Maria Caroline is generally conceded to have inherited her Mother's cunning and leadership but the Court of France was a viper's pit during this era. Depleted of income through the expenditures of Louis XIV and XV and numerous wars, anyone from the hated Country of Austria was going to be looked upon as an enemy. 
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2009, 12:09:19 PM
Well...even today if you ask French people they still believe MA is a spy. That is how bad her repuation was. Anyway MA did spent much more on her later favourite Yolanda de Polaston, Duchess of Polignac. Stephan Zweig wrote "Not even Madame de Maintenon, not even Pompadour cost as much as this favourite...". This cold, self-centered, self indulgent soft spoken beauty managed to get her and her relatives official posts that were not merited from MA. It was also her with her gossip tongue that create shism at the French court that cost MA her popularity among the Nobles. The common people believed that she was the lesbian lover of the Queen. In this friendship, I do question MA's sense of tact and judgement. Both Amalia and Carolina had much more sense than to waste their money and popularity on a female favourite. They would also have seen the diamond necklace scandal a mile and would not have the stupidity to pursuit it openly at court (thus giving the public more stories to feed to the public). Napoleon I once said "Without the scandal of the diamond necklace, there would have been no revolution."
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: ivanushka on December 10, 2009, 12:19:26 PM
Though I agree that Antoinette showed a lack of tact and judgement in her excessive generosity towards Polignac, I can understand her behavior.  It's significant that both Polignac and Lamballe (Antoinette's two greatest favourites) were a few years older than she was.  Antonia Fraser suggests in her biography of Antoinette that she was essentially trying to recreate her childhood relationship with Caroline.  At least Caroline and Amalia were both in Italy and therefore still very much in the family loop so to speak as Leopold and Ferdinand also lived there.  Antoinette had no one near her in France.  Also, as a less forceful and presumably less self reliant personality than Caroline and Amalia I can see why she would feel the need for close female confidants and with her generous nature she would naturally wish to reward them.  I'm not applauding her behavior.  It was misjudged.  But I do think it's understandable
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2009, 12:30:22 PM
I agree. MA had a less forceful character and more of a needy one as she was the youngest daughter and she was in a sense spoiled. Unlike Caroline who liked to read, MA never opened a serious book and many had commented on her laziness. MT once told her that both Amalia & Caroline had to operate in worst circumstances than her and there was no excuses for her lax behavoir on her own incomplete education and understanding of her adopted country. That is the reason I have more respect for Amalia and Caroline who had to overcome much as a political figure and still be a good example to her children (I read that MA's daughter did not identify herself with her mother but on her saintly aunt Madame Elizabeth). I don't think of Amalia and Caroline as failures in history like MA, but just got swept away by the Revolution when change was inevitable.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: ivanushka on December 10, 2009, 06:30:34 PM
I think that Antoinette was so used to having her famous charm to rely on that she depended on that far more than developing her intellect.

It's interesting that MA told Antoinette that both Caroline and Amalia had to operate in worse circumstances that she did.  I'm not sure that was a totally fair assessment.  France may have been richer than both Naples and Parma but it had a more sophisticated Court and very powerful noble families who had to be appeased.  Even if Antoinette had been a skilled politician I think it would have been very difficult for her to steer France towards Austria.  Though both Caroline and Amalia were more politically minded people I also think they had less obstacles to overcome than Antoinette would have done.

I also don't see Antoinette as a failure.  If she had married Louis XVI forty years earlier the two of them would have just lived out their lives in Versailles as Louis XV and Maria Lescinskaya did.  I think a revolution of some sorts was on the cards by the late eighteenth century and they were just in the wrong place at the right time.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 11, 2009, 04:35:35 AM
Well, I do think MA and Louis XVI inherited problems from Louis XV but they certainly added to France's problems. If the deficit was around 21 M livres a year and more than 100 M already and piling up, why not indeed reduce the wastefulness that has been going on for years and years? From my own understanding, the people were counting on them to at least manage things, not make things were.  Both were very much aware of the expectations people had for them..... it wasn't as if they didn't know. I think that is where they failed (besides MA offending the nobles and masses and never seriously conciliating with either; had the monarchy had the support of one or the other, most likely things did not end up as we know today).

Maria Theresa thought her youngest daughter didn't have the power of serious application - unless with great effort -- and I agree with her.  She probably didn't understand that things are never free in essence, there is always a trade off.  So she just enjoyed her position but did nothing much to work hard in exchange.  It took her 13 years as Queen - long after she had become a mother -  to apply herself to serious matters but by 1787, things were already in real crisis and as she didn't have any training on state matters (having not applied herself earlier to such things, except in court appointments) as well as being quite a scatter-brain, she just went from caprice to caprice, according to the Prussian ambassador.  I'm sure MA was indeed charming but I've read she was also prone to bad moods and perhaps a bit selective about to whom such charm was granted; many nobles offended by her so I do not think she was charming all the time.  

I don't think either Charles III and/or Louis XV were easy opponents to overcome in Parma and in Naples (even if they were far away) so I'm not sure  that Amalia and Caroline had it easier, even if their courts were smaller and much less sophisticated and had no powerful nobles to appease like at Versailles (but we can safely assume that they were always factions and malcontents to appease at any court during those times); both kings made things very hard for Amalia and Caroline for years.  Amalia in particular had contend with King Louis XV and Charles III at the same time. For example, Spain and France planned to break up her marriage to Ferdinand and to return her to Austria.  We even see Louis XV stooping low to badmouth Amalia to his grandson, saying how Ferdinand should avoid her and that no one in her family ever liked her! We know the results of such intrigues -- Amalia got pregnant that year and presented her husband an heir the following year.....(and her relationship with Ferdinand got better).  

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2009, 02:32:38 PM
Indeed. I guess if Antonia was forced into a situation of survial like Amalia and Caroline, she might be able to use her gifts more often. Antonia had great charm and able to sway people to her side. Remember when the army was unable to control the mob when they came to Versailles, she went out and curtsey to them. Almost immediately the mob who was at that point bloody (the Swiss guards had already been butchered), turned jeers into cheers for the Queen. Another was when she was tried, the court tried to pin obsene charges of her having sex with her young son (Like Aggripina & Nero). Antonia turned pale but when time for her defence, she cleverly appealed to all the mothers in the courtroom. She almost was able to get out if they had not been able to quiet the women folk who felt motherhood was trampled. In short, Antonia could have made as good a first lady as Jackie Kennedy. However she chose to be careless, lazy and escape into a dreamworld in the Trianon, while France crumbled. In the end, the events engulfed her. Too late Antonia realised that she had that gift.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 11, 2009, 10:15:09 PM
Indeed, Marie Antoinette's last years were her finest years.... I do admire her at that stage; it was just too sad that whatever efforts she put in at that point, it just wasn't enough and there were many people working against the royal family's best interests. Maria Theresa warned her more than once that she shouldn't forfeit her good name in favor of frivolities and extravagance, especially since the French were regarded as a tetchy nation to rule over. That is exactly what happened. BTW, loans during the 12 year reign of Louis XVI amounted to 1,250,000 M livres -- no wonder the common people were outraged, they who already carried the heavy burden of taxation; it's not as if MA spent all that amount -- I believe the French support to the American revolution cost a lot (and I think that was one of the most unwise decisions of Louis XVI) and the French court as a whole was very wasteful -- but as Queen, her expenditures were the most visible and therefore, the one most open to criticism  (Louis XVI did not factor in this since everyone knew he was very modest in his expenditures, a fact that MT also warned MA about, saying she alone would be blamed). Things were so bad, one official calculated that there was only enough money to run the court for two days and credit sources dried up.  

I believe things were already bad in France when MA became Dauphine but such concerns did not really affect the world of Versailles; majority of the the court was decadent and out of touch with reality.  Had the French court been more anchored on reality, things would've turned out differently.  When there were riots about bread, the ladies of the court merely 'honored' the occasion with poufs symbolizing such revolts! Versailles was different in that respect.  But MT also said that as Queen MA could set the tone at Versailles. That is why I think MA was less concerned and lax compared to her sisters in Italy, she could've done something about its decandency and extravagance but chose to wallow in both (which certainly opened the doors for the people to blame her).
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 12, 2009, 10:38:35 AM
I agree that Antonia would have been better for Italy than France. Caroline ,of all the sisters, could have made a difference in the affairs of France. True she wouldn't be as adored, but like her actions in Naples, she would have been a political force to be reconed with. All in all, I think Amalia did a good enough effort for Parma.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Mari on December 13, 2009, 04:48:23 AM
So if Marie Antoinette had not had an impotent or sexually inactive Husband, warned repeatedly to not let the Austrian influence affect his decisions, if She had no friends, no dresses, no Court household, been a harridan in personality as Maria Amalia was described, not had the previous debt of two Kings and their Wars, not had a Husband who brought back Necker as Minister, since Necker favored money and troops going to the American Revolution and floated gigantic loans ( as She was King this was of course all her decision), and not favored "decadency" (???), not had to fight off the vulgar pamphlets, nor the Duke of Orleans faction, the Countess Noailles faction, the Cardinal Rohan faction, been able to judge at all times who was spying on her, been more intelligent, not spent so much time in the Nursery after becoming Queen, put her head into politics instead of Court Functions again because she was king, She might have been an acceptable Queen like her two Sisters who Inherited Husbands who did not want to rule, one considered an Imbecile and the other hunted all the time. Or maybe She could have listened more to Maria Theresa's criticisms like Maria Amalia did when she finally had enough and broke off contact with her Mother because of the criticisms...hmmn! yes I see......  ::) :)

It seems a trifle severe to me  :)  but if as your only primary source your going to use Maria Theresa's letters then lets look at the critical ones to all the Daughters. ...if I may ask what notes does your secondary source use to form her opinion? And the adjectives lazy and frivolous keep coming up..Marie Antoinette had her Court duties as Queen and later as Mother preferred to spend time every day in the Nursery. Every hour had something to do and going to those gatherings gave her the Court gossip and was expected of a Queen. In fact privacy was the thing hardest to get...The French preferred her to be on display even when she Bathed, gave birth and went to the Bathroom. I cannot fault her for wanting some privacy! I don't think many of us could manage that! So if you want to use those adjectives please back it up with a quote or a specific reference :)
 
How would you have done things differently since your inclined to be critical "be specific"? I am really curious!!! Take into consideration Marie Antoinette was a Queen unlike Maria Carolina and Maria Amalia who were for all purposes King. Remember Marie Antoinette herself said She did not have near the political influence on the king that People thought she had!

 If Maria Theresa had known she was going to have to rule France She would have made every effort to send Maria Carolina as She said she resembled herself the most ! I still don't think She could have produced a Heir with an unwilling Husband any faster and her bolder...assertive personality or some might say overbearing.. might have alienated the French Court even more. Her intelligence might have picked up the politics faster but what good would that do her unless She could appoint Ministers?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 13, 2009, 06:12:15 PM
So if Marie Antoinette had not had an impotent or sexually inactive Husband, warned repeatedly to not let the Austrian influence affect his decisions, if She had no friends, no dresses, no Court household, been a harridan in personality as Maria Amalia was described, not had the previous debt of two Kings and their Wars, not had a Husband who brought back Necker as Minister, since Necker favored money and troops going to the American Revolution and floated gigantic loans ( as She was King this was of course all her decision), and not favored "decadency" (???), not had to fight off the vulgar pamphlets, nor the Duke of Orleans faction, the Countess Noailles faction, the Cardinal Rohan faction, been able to judge at all times who was spying on her, been more intelligent, not spent so much time in the Nursery after becoming Queen, put her head into politics instead of Court Functions again because she was king, She might have been an acceptable Queen like her two Sisters who Inherited Husbands who did not want to rule, one considered an Imbecile and the other hunted all the time. Or maybe She could have listened more to Maria Theresa's criticisms like Maria Amalia did when she finally had enough and broke off contact with her Mother because of the criticisms...hmmn! yes I see......  ::) :)

It seems a trifle severe to me  :)  but if as your only primary source your going to use Maria Theresa's letters then lets look at the critical ones to all the Daughters. ...if I may ask what notes does your secondary source use to form her opinion? And the adjectives lazy and frivolous keep coming up..Marie Antoinette had her Court duties as Queen and later as Mother preferred to spend time every day in the Nursery. Every hour had something to do and going to those gatherings gave her the Court gossip and was expected of a Queen. In fact privacy was the thing hardest to get...The French preferred her to be on display even when she Bathed, gave birth and went to the Bathroom. I cannot fault her for wanting some privacy! I don't think many of us could manage that! So if you want to use those adjectives please back it up with a quote or a specific reference :)
 
How would you have done things differently since your inclined to be critical "be specific"? I am really curious!!! Take into consideration Marie Antoinette was a Queen unlike Maria Carolina and Maria Amalia who were for all purposes King. Remember Marie Antoinette herself said She did not have near the political influence on the king that People thought she had!

If Maria Theresa had known she was going to have to rule France She would have made every effort to send Maria Carolina as She said she resembled herself the most ! I still don't think She could have produced a Heir with an unwilling Husband any faster and her bolder...assertive personality or some might say overbearing.. might have alienated the French Court even more. Her intelligence might have picked up the politics faster but what good would that do her unless She could appoint Ministers?

Mari, there is no need to get annoyed (I sense you are in a way despite the smileys above; if I'm wrong, please accept my apologies); you have own opinions and other people have their own.  I do have a lot of admiration for MA - I like all of MT's daughters except for Mimi - but I can also see that she had faults of her own.  You asked for a source on her frivolousness and laziness and said she had court duties to counter such criticisms - well, is the longtime Prussian ambassador in France a good enough (and impartial) observer for you?  I quote Baron Goltz in 1787 in a report to Berlin:  " The Queen had quit her frivolous Private Society and now attends to state matters but as she doesn't have a systematic brain, she goes from caprice to caprice."  I am far from liking Maria Theresa  but I would be the first to admit she gave her daughters good advice at times... I also think her criticisms were not always fair but she did get it right at times.  Does anyone doubt that the French court was decadent and out of touch with the times?  If the common people were having revolts due to scarcity of bread and/or very high bread prices and the ladies at court could only make poufs of revolts to honor such occasion, what does that tell you? That they were emphatic to the common people? 

And MT wasn't the only one to warn MA on her futility of the life she was living. Joseph, who seemed to have more affection for her than MT, also warned her. I cannot quote his exact words at the moment because I don't have the book right now but after seeing France on his visit, he told his sister in his letter (which he told her to read after he left) that in the long run, things cannot continue in the same way.....that the revolution would be a cruel one and perhaps of MA's own making.  MT (in far away Vienna and who had never been in France) is one thing (although she turned out right in her assessment) but Joseph himself has been France, had talked to the common people, saw how they were living so he was in a very good position say such a thing.  

I seem to recall the MA herself brought back Necker as minister, not Louis XVI.  She wrote Count Mercy how she felt very much responsible for any bad effects it may have.  Helping in the American revolution was Louis XVI's idea and his ministers, not MA.  I do not think she was responsible for that in any way. Indeed, MA was entitled to have friends, dresses, jewels, etc. but she could've been more circumspect of the times and of public opinion. As Queen, her actions would've been given more attention (I do think the Comte de Artois was the most spendthrift of all the royal family but as he was only a younger brother, people didn't focus on him.)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2009, 07:17:12 PM
Well...I agree that Antonia failed because she was too careless, too uninterested in politics, and loved luxuary and friends too much. Mind you that I am aware of the problems left behind by the excesses left behind by Louis XV. That is why people expect so much of Louis XVI and Antonia to bring a new age to France. Remember Robespierre spoke in a ceremony about the coming of a new age. Most people believed Louis XVI was humble, hard working and generally popular among the common people. However when Antonia began to involved herself dresses, decorations and spending money gambling, jewels and building. Antonia began to lost her popularity, and many warned her about this from Count Mercy, MT (she was very vocal about what she should be doing...and in this I agree that her advice was sound). When Antonia began to keep company like Yolande de Palesdon, and appointing her relatives in official posts created jealousy at court and provide gossip (Princess de Lambelle was at least loyal to Antonia). Every step of the way, Antonia could have turn back until her reputation was completely ruined by the Affair of the Diamond necklace. Antonia's careless early treatment (burning the letter) and stupid insistance of brining the whole scandal to trial (Louis XVI was willing to let the Cardinal de Rohan pay for the necklace and hush it up). The trial's expose further damage the monarchy even though most of them were lies. Sure Antonia should not be responsible for years of mismanagement, wars and heavy debt, but certainly unwittingly she contributed enough through her foolish actions to deserve what happen to her. Although her most serious crime was her inability to understand what kind of kingdom she became queen. If she had instead try to understand the common people andsent out spies to the market place to test her popularity or recent happenings (Both Amalia & Carolina knew about public opinion in their country). She would not have made the foolish decisions and avoid the pitfall. To be totally fair, Antonia may still fail in this task becaise of the long standing problems that already exist in France, not not so utterly and may live to try another day (like her brother-in-law, Provence (Louis XVIII)).

I agree that either Amalia or Carolina would be a better match and for France. Carolina for one will give her husband no peace until she gets her own way. She was also more cunning and able to play the game (waiting years before having a son to enter the council stipulated in her marriage contract). Yes I also agree she would have got the doctor in for the operation way earlier than Antonia did (actually it was Joseph II who bully his brother-in-law into doing it).
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 13, 2009, 07:34:59 PM
Sorry, my post earlier (#230) should read:  MT wasn't the only one to warn MA on the futility of the life she was living........ If the common people were having revolts due to scarcity of bread and/or very high bread prices and the ladies at court could only make poufs of revolts to honor such occasion, what does that say about them? That they were empathic (not emphatic) to the common people?  

Well...I agree that Antonia failed because she was too careless, too uninterested in politics, and loved luxuary and friends too much. Mind you that I am aware of the problems left behind by the excesses left behind by Louis XV. That is why people expect so much of Louis XVI and Antonia to bring a new age to France. Remember Robespierre spoke in a ceremony about the coming of a new age.  

I do think Marie Antoinette also intelligent but her energies were clearly misapplied and to her detriment. Having an indecisive sovereign and husband also didn't help.  

How would you have done things differently since your inclined to be critical "be specific"? I am really curious!!! Take into consideration Marie Antoinette was a Queen unlike Maria Carolina and Maria Amalia who were for all purposes King. Remember Marie Antoinette herself said She did not have near the political influence on the king that People thought she had!

Maria Amalia was not the ruler of Parma, her husband was.  There is no doubt that she greatly influenced Ferdinand but she was not the de facto ruler of Parma, unlike Caroline in Naples.  Despite being seen as an idiot/simpleton/imbecile, Ferdinand (even as a young man -- Parma's online library states this) had his own opinions and rebelled against everything that he had been forced to accept by France & Spain but were never in line with his own convictions. I guess it helped that Amalia's and Ferdinand's religious and poltical views were aligned.

Well, people certainly thought MA had more political influence than she actually had, mainly because she interfered so much in court appointments.  Had she left such things alone (and if the ministers she pushed for were not inept), then she would've been blamed less for the worsening situation in France.....  
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2009, 07:52:24 PM
The fact that people can believe that Antonia really said "Let them eat cake !" (She did not) spoke volumes of how low her popularity had sunk since the charming Dalphine who many fell in love with during her first official entry to Paris. Amalia would have been shocked to hear the popraganda against her sister that came from the dispatches from France.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 13, 2009, 08:13:18 PM
The fact that people can believe that Antonia really said "Let them eat cake !" (She did not) spoke volumes of how low her popularity had sunk since the charming Dalphine who many fell in love with during her first official entry to Paris. Amalia would have been shocked to hear the popraganda against her sister that came from the dispatches from France.

Had Marie Antoinette gotten to know her people, let them see her outside of Versailles doing good things or connecting with the masses (it's not as if she didn't do good works, she supported charities as mentioned earlier in this thread), she would've done a lot to preserve her earlier popularity and those ridiculous libelles and accusations would not have been easily believed.  

Note that Maria Amalia was nicknamed 'Signora' and 'La Matta' by the Parmesans, not exactly flattering and endearing nicknames but she still managed to rise above such.   I have a lot of respect for her in that regard (not that she always made the right decisions, she made plenty of mistakes as well).  
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 13, 2009, 09:11:19 PM
Or maybe She could have listened more to Maria Theresa's criticisms like Maria Amalia did when she finally had enough and broke off contact with her Mother because of the criticisms...hmmn! yes I see......  ::) :)

It seems a trifle severe to me  :)  but if as your only primary source your going to use Maria Theresa's letters then lets look at the critical ones to all the Daughters. .... In fact privacy was the thing hardest to get...The French preferred her to be on display even when she Bathed, gave birth and went to the Bathroom. I cannot fault her for wanting some privacy! I don't think many of us could manage that! So if you want to use those adjectives please back it up with a quote or a specific reference :)

I am far from being a fan of Maria Theresa but I will also be the first to admit any good advice she gave her children.  True, she wasn't always fair in her criticisms but not all of them were totally imagined either.

Well, MT also criticized Amalia as capricious and extravagant........ Leopold was even tasked to go to Parma and preach submission and economy to his sister. MT also did not even spare Count Mercy in her complaints about her daughter in Parma.  But I have never read so far that MT made predictions to Amalia about how the people would blame her and she would lose her throne due to her caprices and spending.  Clearly MT saw some factors in France that were not present in the context of Amalia's spending and caprices in Parma. I have already cited Baron Goltz (Prussian Ambassador to France) as my source for MA's laziness and frivolity.  Derek Beales in his book on Joseph II also mentioned MT's criticisms of her children abroad: She blamed Leopold for his coldness and reserve, Ferdinand for not organizing his time better, Amalia for her poor French and haughty airs, and Marie Antoinette for her laziness, frivolity, extravagance, and failure to take every opportunity to conceive an heir.

Spending time alone is fine but excluding the majority of the nobles from invitations to the Petit Trianon (where she preferred to spend more of her time) was very unwise.  Stefan Zweig also wrote about how many nobles were offended at that and how they could only have access to the King and Queen only on Sundays and were given an ungracious reception on such as well.      

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 13, 2009, 10:03:21 PM
I agree...However at the point Antonia just wanted to go her own way and ignore any advice to pay more attention to the situation. Hense she was responsible to adding to the already bad situation when it was revealed she play little milkmaid in the Hamlet, while poor people died of stravation. I could undersand the common people's anger and dismay at her behavior. Amalia had much more sense in her actions. Her sins of bad French or proud manners paled in comparsion to those MT gave Antonia. It was painful to read that MT said she prayed that she would be dead before seeing her youngest daughter in a degrading situation. Reading that letter, to one with more sense, it should have been a wake up call to change her ways, but it didn't have the effect MT hoped.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Mari on December 14, 2009, 09:02:03 AM
Your answers are interesting.

Hilaire Belloc the Historian states " the imposing posture which the French demand of their symbols had been dropped by the old King; the new one could not restore it. choose at random any man or woman of your acquaintance in history, put them upon the throne after the death of Louis XV., and though the succeeding quarter of a century would have varied somewhat with various individuals in power, the doom of the Monarchy would by none have been averted." notes: p. 57 Marie Antoinette

He attributes this to the Regency, the public theory of floating criticism,the foreign policy,the Seven Years War,the careless lethargy of Louis XV, and then the last Mistress Du Barry who was considered a Prostitute!

I am sure like all Mothers Maria Theresa scolded ,advised and worried about her Children.. However according to Belloc Maria Theresa first sent a series of critical letters to Marie Antoinette over her treatment of Du Barry. The scandal was great enough that the King of France would seek to introduce a low bred Mistress to his new Daughter-in-law that three of the Women of the Court resigned. However MT needed France's support because Russia and Prussia were in the midst of dividing Poland and Vienna needed a French Alliance. So in this instance the letters were a little prejudiced towards Austria's needs.  :)

 On offending the Nobles he mentions that when Leopold came for a visit he was so obese and lacked polish that there was fun made of him and in an effort to put a stop to it Marie Antoinette refused to allow him to call and any further "Princes of the Blood" to meet him. It is at this date that the future  Duc d' Orleans became offended. Part of the Problem between the German Court thinking and the French Belloc states was her German disregard for inherited tradition, to the French these were all important indications of authority but to her were "meaningless extravagances of Parade."               p.123 of Marie Antoinette

 He is not easy on Marie Antoinette; he gives a lot of information on how the Ministers of Finance tried to float loans and how difficult the finances were even though Louis XVI was trying. During all this the financial Minister Turgot actually increased her pin money as it was called without being asked and She was ignorant of financial affairs and took it. Contrary to not interfering with the Cabinet he claims she was trying to without the knowledge necessary and that is why Joseph told her to quit meddling. notes are from count Mercy's correspondence and letters from MT and Marie Antoinette to MT!
my notes have Necker as being recalled by Louis XVI and here is a source  bottom link

 I have not read all Maria Theresa's letters nor Mercy's etc. but I will be looking for those in particular that have formed your views of Marie Antoinette. My views were formed long ago due to the eco-political climate of the French Government of that time. And I have read so much that disproves many of the slanders about her character. I have to agree with Belloc I don't think anything could have saved them unless the escape could have been better organized or if Louis XVI had not stuck his head out of the Carriage.

 Belloc admits Marie Antoinette's love for outings and balls and her gambling when She was young  he states that her debt was way out of proportion in the French eyes as to what actually existed..  he states " that after two years her debt was less than 20,000 her difficulties were never so bad he states that the sale of a farm wouldn't have met them. These are he states roughly from eighteen to twenty and her mother promptly sent Joseph over to report on everything.  Bassette and other forms of gambling had been a part of the Nobility for generations. Even Louis XIV wife had debts at about the same or even higher rate so I don't think that M Antoinette could have set the pace on that. Would it have alienated her even further from the Court if she had not joined in those evenings? It seems to me the only scoldings were coming from the Austrian side who had little tolerance with the Court entertainment of the French! I have run into the Bourgeois family environment of the Vienna Court  description used  several times in Historical documents. I think the family environment and the entertainments of the Children are what Marie Antoinette tried to later recreate as a Woman in her late twenties. 

To comment on one of the remarks no it doesn't sound empathetic "if Marie Antoinette had dealt with the peasants but almost none of the nobility did." Except in charities as I mentioned previously perhaps others on their Estates. It was part of the left over from Louis XIV when he isolated them from Paris to Versailles. She did take a sleigh into Paris by herself, as she did the day She had a list of pensioners to take care of and here is the quote "the sleigh was daringly, impudently alone. There was no guard, no decent covering for Royalty, no dignity of pace or even of ornament, etc. and then the streets were all aghast at such a sight, Sevres and the villages around Versailles had stared bewildered to see a Queen go by in such a fashion; but Paris was too great to be merely bewildered, and Paris grew angry, as might an Individual at a personal insult offered."
p. 130

I do use smileys so you can judge my intent.. now where can I look at the letters from MT to Maria Amalia? I have gone into the French Archives but not the Italian! Are they published by any chance? 

http://www.bookrags.com/biography/jacques-necker/

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: ivanushka on December 14, 2009, 10:59:03 AM
I think that Louis and Antoinette were burdened by excessive expectancy from the moment they came to power.  Louis XV had been very unpopular in the last decades of his reign and because his successors were known to be kind and compassionate (which they both were) people expected miracles.  Nobody made sufficient allowances for the fact they were both young, inexperienced and facing a mountain of problems that even the greatest minds of the day would have stuggled to solve.

Nancy Mitford also suggested that one of the reasons Antoinette suffered such abuse/slanders was because Louis had no mistress.  Historically the royal mistress had been a hate figure.  All problems could be blamed on her so allowing the French people to carry on loving their King.  As there was no mistress to direct the hate at, it was directed at Antoinette herself.

I do feel sorry for Antoinette.  She didn't always help herself re her partying and favouratism but she was in a rather impossible situation.  Everyone blamed her for not getting pregnant when it wasn't her fault and if she tried to involve herself in goverment she ran the risk of being labelled an Austrian spy.  Though I believe Maria Theresa loved her and wanted the best for her, the letters I've seen are full of constant criticism and don't make enough allowance for youth, homesickness and inexperience.

Mari, I've read about the visit of her brother that you mention.  I actually thought it was Maximillian rather than Leopold but certainly he made a bad impression.  He was fat, gauche and tactless and the courtiers at Versailles apparently dubbed him "The Auchfool"!
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 14, 2009, 06:26:31 PM
I think that Louis and Antoinette were burdened by excessive expectancy from the moment they came to power.  Louis XV had been very unpopular in the last decades of his reign and because his successors were known to be kind and compassionate (which they both were) people expected miracles.  Nobody made sufficient allowances for the fact they were both young, inexperienced and facing a mountain of problems that even the greatest minds of the day would have stuggled to solve.

Nancy Mitford also suggested that one of the reasons Antoinette suffered such abuse/slanders was because Louis had no mistress.  Historically the royal mistress had been a hate figure.  All problems could be blamed on her so allowing the French people to carry on loving their King.  As there was no mistress to direct the hate at, it was directed at Antoinette herself.

I do feel sorry for Antoinette.  She didn't always help herself re her partying and favouratism but she was in a rather impossible situation.  Everyone blamed her for not getting pregnant when it wasn't her fault and if she tried to involve herself in goverment she ran the risk of being labelled an Austrian spy.  Though I believe Maria Theresa loved her and wanted the best for her, the letters I've seen are full of constant criticism and don't make enough allowance for youth, homesickness and inexperience.

I also believe that there was quite an excessive expectancy at how Louis XVI and MA can usher in a new era through their reign from the people. I also believe they had the best intentions; we see that sweet letter from MA to Maria Theresa about how she and the king were touched at the people's affection for them, therefore they must work harder than ever for their people's happiness.  Sadly, whether due to inexperience, lack of foresight, being taken advantage of by unscrupulous people, the inherited problems from Louis XV's reign, inept ministers, the 'isolation' of Versailles from the rest of France, court factions, etc. (or a combination of it all), we see Count Mercy writing to Vienna in 1787: "When waste and unthrift deplete the royal treasury, there arises a cry of despair and terror. Thereupon the finance minister has recourse to disastrous measures..... However, in the last analysis, it is certain that the present government is worse than that of the late King in respect to disorderliness and extortion.  Such a condition of affairs cannot possibly continue much longer without a catastrophe resulting."
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on December 14, 2009, 06:52:27 PM
I am sure like all Mothers Maria Theresa scolded ,advised and worried about her Children.. However according to Belloc Maria Theresa first sent a series of critical letters to Marie Antoinette over her treatment of Du Barry. The scandal was great enough that the King of France would seek to introduce a low bred Mistress to his new Daughter-in-law that three of the Women of the Court resigned. However MT needed France's support because Russia and Prussia were in the midst of dividing Poland and Vienna needed a French Alliance. So in this instance the letters were a little prejudiced towards Austria's needs.  :)

Belloc admits Marie Antoinette's love for outings and balls and her gambling when She was young  he states that her debt was way out of proportion in the French eyes as to what actually existed..  he states " that after two years her debt was less than 20,000 her difficulties were never so bad he states that the sale of a farm wouldn't have met them. These are he states roughly from eighteen to twenty and her mother promptly sent Joseph over to report on everything.  Bassette and other forms of gambling had been a part of the Nobility for generations. Even Louis XIV wife had debts at about the same or even higher rate so I don't think that M Antoinette could have set the pace on that. Would it have alienated her even further from the Court if she had not joined in those evenings? It seems to me the only scoldings were coming from the Austrian side who had little tolerance with the Court entertainment of the French! I have run into the Bourgeois family environment of the Vienna Court  description used  several times in Historical documents. I think the family environment and the entertainments of the Children are what Marie Antoinette tried to later recreate as a Woman in her late twenties.  

I do use smileys so you can judge my intent.. now where can I look at the letters from MT to Maria Amalia? I have gone into the French Archives but not the Italian! Are they published by any chance?  

Very interesting. It's always good reading various sources to understand these people and their situations better.  Thank you!  :)

Like I said earlier, I do not find Maria Theresa's criticisms or letters always fair and indeed, her urgings to Marie Antoinette regarding the Du Barry was mainly because she didn't want to get on the bad side of France regarding Poland's partition (Poland was France's ally). I suspect that was one of the reasons MT stopped communication with Amalia in Parma as well -  to appease Louis XV -- perhaps in addition to being extremely annoyed about her daughter's insolence, of course.  

Well, MT and Franz Stephan's children enjoyed some amount of private life in Vienna. It is indeed interesting that MA - and Amalia as well - insisted on having a private life in their adopted countries.

I believe it was not only the Austrian court who disapproved of MA's entertainments. Antonia Fraser in her book on MA states that the French (or at least the satirists) thought MA wasn't serious enough  (and MA in turn thought the satirists shouldn't be taken seriously).  Count Mercy (although it can be argued that he was Austrian) reported to Vienna as early as 1775 that when MA joined the court at a horseracing event, the French could only see a Queen who was  interested in her entertainments.  She wasn't greeted with applause at all, only with silence and displeasure.  The fact that MA wasn't cheered at all strongly indicates that the public disapproved of a Queen who (at least in their view) lacked seriousness.

On Necker, I understand sources may vary but I found this much earlier..... MA summoned Necker into her private room and devoted all her powers into appeasing him.  Afterwards, she wrote Count Mercy: "I tremble at the thought that Necker's recall has been my work. It seems to be my fate to bring misfortune, and if some devilish machination should make him fail like his predecessors, or if he should do anything to impair the King's authority, I shall be hated even more than I am hated now."

No, I don't think there is a book that compiles MT's letters to Amalia (and vice versa), unlike with MA. But I'm sure they can be found in the Habsburg archives and perhaps with the (present day) Bourbon-Parma family? The letters (or excerpts thereof ) I have read so far are far and few. I must admit MT's letters to Count Mercy - which also mentioned Amalia in Parma quite often--were helpful in this case.

This is the only excerpt I have found on MT's prescribed rules/criticisms for her daughter (when Count Rosenberg was sent to Parma in 1772):  There is only one sovereign and that is the Infante, and Madame Infanta is only the spouse of the sovereign.  When you left for Parma, I always knew you were the wife of the sovereign, and therefore the second person; but most unfortunately I saw that the Infante was never treated as a sovereign, and after less than month, he became first after the Infanta.  

Mari, I am glad you are NOT annoyed.  :)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 31, 2010, 12:39:51 PM
I hope that the next pics aren't repeated, several were already deleted or couldn't see them, so here are they anyways
Marie Antoniette and children at Tulleries
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Royalty/The_Tuilleries_20th_June_1792.jpg)
The wedding of Marie Antoniette and Louis XVI
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Royalty/Wedding_of_Louis__Antoinette.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Tybalt on April 07, 2010, 12:19:53 PM
http://image.radio-france.fr/_media/img15090.jpg
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Rani on April 25, 2010, 03:46:26 PM
By Jean-Étienne Liotard

(http://i39.tinypic.com/1zwc8e1.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 26, 2010, 11:14:20 AM
It's very beautiful... is it on a museum?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Rani on April 26, 2010, 12:44:38 PM
Not in a museum but it was in an art auction.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 31, 2010, 02:58:22 PM
Going to be excecuted
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MariaAntonieta.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 10, 2010, 03:26:23 PM
Marie Antoinette
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Empresses/MariAnton.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 15, 2010, 02:14:43 PM
Her son taken away from her
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/MA4.jpg)
The queen
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/MA2.jpg)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/MA3.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 15, 2010, 02:15:42 PM
She with the king and other people
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/MA.jpg)
Her dress
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/MADress.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 16, 2010, 09:56:38 AM
Where is that dress now ?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on June 16, 2010, 01:30:55 PM
Where is that dress now ?

It is in the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto, and was included in the exhibition of court costume, 'Fastes de cour et ceremonies royales' in Versailles last summer.  The catalogue description did not identify it as belonging to Marie Antoinette and indeed its provenance is far from clear.  A connection with Rose Bertin was hinted at, though there is no evidence for this either.  It was originally made to cover the wide side hoops which would have been in fashion during the time Marie Antoinette was in the French Court and was subsequently altered to its present form.  All that can be stated for certain is that it was aquired by the Museum in London in 1925 from a British antiquarian.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Beautiful_Anastasia on June 16, 2010, 04:49:33 PM
Marie's painting by gothic fairy artist Jasmine Beckett-Griffith (aka Strangeling)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One of her most famous works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(http://www.strangeling.com/mariemasquerade.jpg)

Emily x
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Mari on June 18, 2010, 03:14:02 AM
This is an Automaton Music Box owned by Marie Antoinette and is one of the most unusual pieces I have seen...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75CXFwgslsYhttp://
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 21, 2010, 03:32:49 PM
I liked your modern Marie Antoinette ;-)
The queen with  a lovely gown
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/RoyalLadies/QueenOfFrance.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on October 26, 2010, 12:29:47 PM
Ooh,I love that picture! Her gown reminds me of those worn by Princess Victoire de France and her sisters in individual paintings of the princesses.
I love this sketch of Marie, but unfortunately I can not save it. Perhaps someone has it to post so that I could? Thanks.  :)
http://www.marie-antoinette.org/ltd-portfolio/
(it's the 5th one along in the second line.)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on November 07, 2010, 04:29:16 PM
(http://i54.tinypic.com/30m7dc7.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on November 10, 2010, 02:53:18 PM
yOU  could be right there, I read a description by  Vigee le Brun.. the gist was  that
MA  was well endowed .... check out that fab scupture in St Denis too !

(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5474/mariestdenissiisuuuuu.jpg) (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mariestdenissiisuuuuu.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on November 12, 2010, 07:28:40 PM
Could it be ?

(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/9601/clipboard24dfgdfgggggg.jpg) (http://img695.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard24dfgdfgggggg.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on November 22, 2010, 06:33:14 PM
http://www.styleite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/smithsonian-qvc-marie-antoinette-earrings-240ls041410.jpg
Her earrings. How utterly gorgeous! *sigh*
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on November 22, 2010, 07:12:31 PM
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/8365/clipboard34sdfsd3234234.jpg) (http://img41.imageshack.us/my.php?image=clipboard34sdfsd3234234.jpg)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on August 02, 2011, 06:35:05 PM
Just watched the first  30 mins of the Kirsten Dunst movie
she looked wrong for the part from the very start....
strange to have  rock guitar music at the beginning too !

 It all seems pretty lifeless, the actors going thru the motions just to get their paycheque.

Hollywood as usual throwing millions of dollars at the movie  to make it at least a visual feast to the eye.
 We are seeing Versailles  in  35 mill  technicolour and it does n;t disapoint.... what an amazing palace !!
Thank heavens the mob did n't get in there and put it to the torch !

I ll watch the rest  some other day..........no doubt it will all get very gory in the end !
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 03, 2011, 12:25:25 PM
No. The end was Marie Antoinette and her family driving away from Versailles. This movie only covers the glory days of her life.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: ivanushka on August 03, 2011, 01:01:44 PM
Just watched the first  30 mins of the Kirsten Dunst movie
she looked wrong for the part from the very start....

I actually thought she looked quite good as the young Marie Antoinette.  However I don't think she had the gravitas for the older Queen.

Hope you enjoy the rest of the movie!
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on August 03, 2011, 02:17:40 PM
I've seen some of it, and I don't plan on seeing the rest! I love the costumes -- most of them! but the impression I got was that it was mostly music montage-things, and senseless talking, like this one scene I saw some of where they were watching the sunrise, or that funny game with the paper on their foreheads, and who wants to watch that? I mean, music montages can be nice, but just one or two! And ugh! most of the music! Some of it is very nice, the piano pieces, but the American accents were awful. It would have been so much nicer with French accents!  ::)
It didn't seem to have much of a plot, (remember, I haven't seen it all, so I can't really say!) but I liked the look of the movie, the pastels and gorgeous sets, costumes, hairdos and jewelry, it gave the impression of an extravagant court, and I think that was very good. But it isn't really very good at all, in fact it's probably horrible, on terms of history. I think Ms. Cupola (sp?) portrayed the lavishness of the French court at that time very well, though, and also that Marie Antoinette was really just this naive, sort of silly, fun-loving young woman who really would have done much better as a countryside countess or something.  :D
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 03, 2011, 02:52:25 PM
I agree that Marie Antoinette was much better suited to be a country countess than a Queen of France. Had she lived today, she would be more in tune to be a fashion model than a political figure. That was the message Sofia Coppola tried to make.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 04, 2011, 02:40:11 PM
http://i54.tinypic.com/30m7dc7.jpg (http://i54.tinypic.com/30m7dc7.jpg)

I haven't checked that topic for a looong while, the little portrait on the necklace is so beautiful, the earrrings are supreb, impressive!! The sculpture is beautiful... but among these... being more specific about Reply #66 (the Spanish comic), where did you get it? I found it interesting. Do you have the whole story?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on August 04, 2011, 07:45:57 PM
Quote
The end was Marie Antoinette and her family driving away from Versailles. This movie only covers the glory days of her life.
end quote
         Oh  no  !    Eric has spoiled the movie for me,  telling me that  "
 I was so looking forward to the first appearance of the  guillotines  ! if only to get rid
of some of the  more  anoying  actors and actresses !

(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5600/werwerrr23423423458.jpg) (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/werwerrr23423423458.jpg/)

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1990/werwerrr23423423460.jpg) (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/werwerrr23423423460.jpg/)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on August 04, 2011, 08:06:47 PM
QUOTE
(the Spanish comic), where did you get it? I found it interesting. Do you have the whole story?
END QUOTE
No  I must have found that on a troll through google   and just spotted that
fascinating  page ....  it  would be great to have the  full comic   ( in  english )
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: imperial angel on August 28, 2011, 04:31:13 PM
Marie's painting by gothic fairy artist Jasmine Beckett-Griffith (aka Strangeling)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One of her most famous works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(http://www.strangeling.com/mariemasquerade.jpg)

Emily x

Certainly a different take on Marie Antoinette..but I like it, it's playful.I hadn't seen it before..
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on September 17, 2011, 10:19:28 AM
Those romantic Balls  Marie attended in Paris during her
extravagent years,  must have looked  something like this
 (http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1824/wmscinderella07.jpg) (http://img534.imageshack.us/i/wmscinderella07.jpg/)

(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6968/wmscinderella11.jpg) (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/wmscinderella11.jpg/)

(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3770/wmscinderella15.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/wmscinderella15.jpg/)

(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/4791/wmscinderella09.jpg) (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/wmscinderella09.jpg/)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on September 20, 2011, 07:44:05 AM
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/cfarnon/Miscl/Lebalmasque.jpg)

In fact there is a contemporary print of a masked ball given to the King and Queen by the City of Paris in January 1782, on the occasion of the birth of the Dauphin (they had attended a grand banquet a few days earlier).  It does give an idea of the lack of decorum in these sorts of events however - many indecorous costumes, the surge of people, the opportunities for all sorts of misbehaviour.  The very pretty illustrations above are more like the court balls, where the Queen could only dance very publicly, under the eye of the whole court, even if the ball was a costume ball or one with masks.  At the more public fetes (although in this particular case she would have been much more on show), Marie Antoinette could actually be almost invisible, in the midst of the crowd.  The romance didn't come from beautiful costumes or glittering decor or carriages, but from the thing she could get very little of - privacy. 
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: miki_nastya on October 30, 2011, 03:45:23 PM
does anybody know her favorite flowers? or color?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on October 31, 2011, 04:09:59 AM
Cornflowers were a particular favorite of the Queen, and cornflower motifs are on many china and other decorative pieces made for her.  She also liked violets and roses.

Her favorite colours are more difficult to track, as she changed her preferences during her life.  She wore a great deal of white when she took up the simpler fashions of the 1780s, but when she got heavier and her complexion became less dazzling after her pregnancies she reverted to more formal dresses in colours which made her skin look better, giving up pink in particular as she felt it no longer suited her.  Her portraits show a lot of blue and red (in her less formal portraits, which would presumably show her preferences more than her state portraits), the colour puce (a sort of pinky brown) was invented for her, but in general it seemed she went for pastels in her youth and stronger darker colours after she turned thirty.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: miki_nastya on November 02, 2011, 01:51:38 AM
 Today, 2 October, 256 years ago a little archduchess was born in the Imperial Court of Austria.
 She was destined to be the last Queen of France and one of the most tragic Queen in history.
                                                           Joyeux anniversaire
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on November 05, 2011, 01:13:45 PM
A quick tribute I made. It's not that impressive, but here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD5Ufi89sY8
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: miki_nastya on November 22, 2011, 09:13:27 AM
 Who was her favorite sister? Maria Carolina? or favorite brother?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on November 23, 2011, 10:53:34 AM
Who was her favorite sister? Maria Carolina? or favorite brother?

Maria Carolina was unquestionably her favorite sister.  They had been brought up together and all their lives corresponded and demonstrated great fondness for one another.  It's not completely clear who was her favorite brother, though there are some indications.  Marie Antoinette was sandwiched between Ferdinand and Maximillian in the family but after nursery age, the upbringing of the Archduchesses and the Archdukes were separate and it's not obvious that Marie Antoinette had much of a continuing relationship with her brothers, although miniatures of Ferdinand and Maximillian, set in a ring, apparently gave her sentimental memories of childhood, and she always expressed pleasure at the prospect of family reunions.  But news was apparently passed on via the correspondence with her mother rather than directly with her brothers.  When Maximillian paid an incognito visit to France in 1775, he behaved  very boorishly which did him no good with the French court and although his sister supported him, Madame de Campan wrote that the Queen "was exceedingly mortified at the blunders committed by her brother".  Ferdinand and his wife Maria Beatrix d'Este visited Versailles in 1786 but the Queen was distracted by the Diamond Necklace affair, as the trial of the Cardinal de Rohan and the others accused of consipiracy in the affair, was taking place and a grand fete organised for their last days in France had to be cancelled due to the public indignation against her.  It's difficult to assess her feelings for her brother due to this complication of events, but his visit did not appear to give her much consolation.  The visit of her eldest brother Joseph in 1777 however put her in the position where eventually the Emperor said that she had become his favorite sister - possibly because she seemed grateful for his efforts to sort out her marriage and genuinely to help her, though he certainly scolded her severely at the same time for her perceived faults, and was keen to promote Austrian interests via her influence over Louis.  Marie Antoinette also seemed rather naively to perceive Leopold as an elder brother with her best interests at heart, although from his correspondence it seems he was rather more concerned with positioning Austria against France than he was in promoting fraternal affection.  So it looks from what evidence there is available, that probably Joseph was her favorite brother.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on November 24, 2011, 10:43:33 PM
I agree with your assessment, CountessKate.

Archduke Ferdinand, based on evidence, became much closer to their older sister Maria Amalia once he moved to Italy. I think I've read that Archduke Ferdinand corresponded with Marie Antoinette - but most likely via Vienna when Empress Maria Theresa was still alive -- but it seems that except for the visit at Versailles in 1786, they did not have a lot of interaction. Leopold was never close to Marie Antoinette and it seems that the two siblings did not (directly) correspond on a regular basis once in their new homes. Marie Antoinette was only 9 years old when Leopold moved to Tuscany, a factor that may have affected their future relations. I think it was a huge mistake on her part not to cultivate better relations with him -- after all, Leopold was the next ruler after Joseph II.  Leopold's views on  Marie Antoinette's predicament later on and whatever fraternal affection he may have had (not much, it seems) can be summed up by what he said: "I have a sister in France but France is not my sister." I don't think it was due to Leopold's "coldness" (as their mother claimed) as Leopold was very warm and nice to both Archduchesses Maria Elisabeth and Maria Amalia.  
Title: Songs that...
Post by: miki_nastya on November 29, 2011, 09:45:16 AM
              What songs does remind you of Marie Antoinette? I was hearing today the song A mother's pray, by Celine Dion and it remind me of her and her daughter Marie Therese...I don't know why but in my opinion the words fits perfectly....

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on December 24, 2011, 02:56:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0aJ8oySR9I
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: cebi26 on December 31, 2011, 10:50:20 PM
The Queen was by birth a imperial or a royal highness?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: miki_nastya on January 01, 2012, 09:58:19 AM
I believe an Imperial since her mother was Holly Roman Empress....but I'm not shure
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on January 01, 2012, 01:32:09 PM
The Queen was by birth a imperial or a royal highness?

She was both - her Imperial and Royal Highness, as she was the daughter of the Holy Roman Emperor (her father Franz Stefan of Lorraine) and the King of Hungary and Queen of Bohemia (her mother Maria Theresa, who had been crowned 'King' of Hungary and Queen of Bohemia). 
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: cebi26 on January 01, 2012, 03:47:38 PM
Thank you!
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: miki_nastya on January 13, 2012, 03:19:12 PM
Any songs about her? Or which make you remember her?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on January 15, 2012, 11:11:46 AM
A Dutch singer named Petra Berger wrote a song about Marie A. called "Close your Eyes".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FICtd6kBSwg&feature=related
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Tybalt on January 15, 2012, 02:52:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrF_YNM5dAg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUmB7jJ1NXE
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 15, 2012, 04:45:02 PM
What beautiful music Tybalt. Thank you for providing the link.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on January 18, 2012, 11:11:55 AM
Thank you very much for your links, Tybalt!

Here is a very beautiful French TV series from 1975 in four episodes, "Marie Antoinette," available in full on the website of the Institut National de l'Audiovisuel. Enjoy!

1st episode:
http://www.ina.fr/fictions-et-animations/fictions-historiques/video/CPA75058481/les-delices-du-royaume.fr.html

2nd episode:
http://www.ina.fr/economie-et-societe/vie-sociale/video/CPA75057268/une-reine-pour-figaro.fr.html

3rd episode:
http://www.ina.fr/histoire-et-conflits/grandes-dates/video/CPA76051440/le-roi-n-a-qu-un-homme-sa-femme.fr.html

4th episode:
http://www.ina.fr/histoire/histoire-4eme/video/CPA76069312/le-fleau-des-francais.fr.html
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on February 10, 2012, 09:24:08 PM
Four video excerpts and the trailer of a new movie "Les adieux à la reine," due to be released in March:
http://video.cinefil.com/video/a70b6c6266fs.html

Interview with the movie director and actors:
http://ritalubitsch.blogspot.com/2012/01/les-adieux-la-reine-benoit-jacquot.html
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: ivanushka on February 10, 2012, 11:16:42 PM
Can't wait to see this film.  Thanks so much for posting the clips and the interviews!
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on February 10, 2012, 11:55:02 PM
You're welcome!
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on February 26, 2012, 01:14:32 PM
Press conference about "Les adieux a la reine" at the Berlin Film Festival:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZSvVXvw308
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGAMsGlPfnk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8b9UVo7R9s

Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on February 26, 2012, 01:22:48 PM
Kirsten Dunst got the part  in the  2006  movie
but can't help thinking that a young Catherine Deneuve would
have been perfect for that role



 Catherine as Marie Antoinette

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7936/catherinedeneuvefinalfi.jpg) (http://img600.imageshack.us/i/catherinedeneuvefinalfi.jpg/)



.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: miki_nastya on March 29, 2012, 02:26:35 PM
What color was her hair and eyes?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on March 30, 2012, 04:00:52 AM
What color was her hair and eyes?

Antonia Fraser in her biography of Marie Antoinette wrote "her hair was fair: a light ash colour that would probably deepen with the years", and her eyes were blue.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Vanya Ivanova on March 30, 2012, 10:54:26 AM

I can't praise Antonia Fraser's book 'Marie Antoinette' enough, its a wonderful biography, I actually cried when it described the fate of the poor Princess de Lamballe. I live very near the Royal Crescent in Bath where she initially fled to and rented a house ( no1 which is now a museum http://www.bath-preservation-trust.org.uk/?id=3) but alas she returned to France and suffered a terrible fate out of true loyalty to her friend.

Another really fascinating book is 'Marie-Therese- The fate of Marie-Antoinette's daughter' by Susan Nagel I read it cover to cover in one evening! She was an amazing woman who quite naturally was scarred by her experiences. Post revolutionary french politics is such a maze with all the republics and restorations but this book sets it out in such an interesting and relevant way.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on March 30, 2012, 01:46:56 PM
Could not agree more Vanya I.  Both books are essential reading to anyone interested in the subject.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on April 13, 2012, 03:24:58 PM
 I thought ... The Queen's Confession .... was good
 (prob because it is in  first person....)

by Victoria Holt ....
(another name for Jean Plaidy )
( why do authors write under different names,  I cant understand it ! )
( Even Jean Plaidy is a pseudonym )
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on June 06, 2012, 12:22:39 PM
I have just seen "Les adieux a la reine." I have mixed feelings about it. M-A is depicted as frivole, as a likely lesbian. The movie shows how despised M-A was even by those closest to her (e.g. her robe master). Louis XVI, however, gets a very sympathetic portrait. The movie is very compelling, shot on location at Versailles. The vantage point from downstairs, from the servants' level, adds a feeling of harsh realism. Most actors do a great job, especially Diane Kruger in the leading role. Anybody else who has seen it and wants to share his/her impressions?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: koloagirl on June 06, 2012, 01:44:50 PM

Aloha from Kaua'i!

I have read the book it is based on and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I have seen clips from the film, but don't anticipate it coming to the small island where I live - Netflix will be my friend!

Is it playing in the United States yet (other than film festivals) - or just Europe?

Janet R.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on June 06, 2012, 02:17:39 PM
I saw it on a transatlantic Air France flight. I am not aware of it being shown in American movie theaters outside of film festivals.

I found Madame Campan's role in the movie quite interesting. While she is M-A's devoted first lady of the bedchamber, she does appear to be critical of her master at least in one scene. Her memoirs are a first hand account of M-A's life that I now feel is a must read in order to understand what really happenned in the ill-fated queen's life. Here they are free of charge:
http://www.authorama.com/memoirs-of-marie-antoinette-1.html
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: koloagirl on June 07, 2012, 02:13:46 PM

Aloha from Kaua'i!

That is actually pretty exciting - I am flying to Paris in September on a Air France flight from LAX direct to CDG - while that is a distance away in time - maybe that film will still be available on their in-flight movies - I can hope at least!!

Janet R.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on June 07, 2012, 04:58:59 PM
Aloha!

A fifth excerpt from "Les adieux..." has been added recently on the French site I recommended a few months ago. It shows an intimate moment between M-A and la duchesse de Polignac:
http://video.cinefil.com/video/ee20f2c24ccs.html
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on June 10, 2012, 08:05:39 PM
M-A threw away her last chance to save her and her husband's throne and even life by rejecting La Fayette's help offer. It is as if she had subconsciously chosen death over life: "Partout en province et dans les milieux modérés l'indignation fut générale on avait touché à la personne du roi [during the June 20, 1792 attack on the Tuilleries - my note]. Un mouvement contre-révolutionnaire assez fort se précisait et les Jacobins se sentaient minoritaires. Le 28 juin 1792 La Fayette revenu rapidement de l'armée, se présente à l'Assemblée où il dénonce au nom de l'armée les fauteurs de troubles et les clubs: l'Assemblée l'applaudit. A ce moment, avec le fort courant favorable au roi il aurait pu tenter un coup de force militaire pour rétablir le roi dans son autorité, mais la cour s'y oppose se moquant de ces " Don Quichotteries ", Marie-Antoinette dira même :" mieux vaut mourir que d'être sauvé par M. de La Fayette et les constitutionnels ". On rejette donc sa proposition et pire on le trahit en dénonçant son projet de profiter d'une revue militaire le lendemain pour marcher avec ses troupes sur les Jacobins.
La Fayette, découragé partit pour la frontière. Louis XVI venait de laisser passer son dernier espoir. Le mouvement de réaction qui avait suivi le 20 juin était fini."
Source: http://revolution.1789.free.fr/page-6.htm

Perhaps the pain of being separated from her true love (Axel Fersen and/or Gabrielle de Polignac) was too much for M-A to keep on living... What do you think?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on June 11, 2012, 10:12:04 AM
M-A threw away her last chance to save her and her husband's throne and even life by rejecting La Fayette's help offer. It is as if she had subconsciously chosen death over life: "Partout en province et dans les milieux modérés l'indignation fut générale on avait touché à la personne du roi [during the June 20, 1792 attack on the Tuilleries - my note]. Un mouvement contre-révolutionnaire assez fort se précisait et les Jacobins se sentaient minoritaires. Le 28 juin 1792 La Fayette revenu rapidement de l'armée, se présente à l'Assemblée où il dénonce au nom de l'armée les fauteurs de troubles et les clubs: l'Assemblée l'applaudit. A ce moment, avec le fort courant favorable au roi il aurait pu tenter un coup de force militaire pour rétablir le roi dans son autorité, mais la cour s'y oppose se moquant de ces " Don Quichotteries ", Marie-Antoinette dira même :" mieux vaut mourir que d'être sauvé par M. de La Fayette et les constitutionnels ". On rejette donc sa proposition et pire on le trahit en dénonçant son projet de profiter d'une revue militaire le lendemain pour marcher avec ses troupes sur les Jacobins.
La Fayette, découragé partit pour la frontière. Louis XVI venait de laisser passer son dernier espoir. Le mouvement de réaction qui avait suivi le 20 juin était fini."
Source: http://revolution.1789.free.fr/page-6.htm

Perhaps the pain of being separated from her true love (Axel Fersen and/or Gabrielle de Polignac) was too much for M-A to keep on living... What do you think?
I don’t feel there is very strong evidence that Marie Antoinette thought that Lafayette was her last hope of survival, and turning him down was effectively suicide, but rather think this was a somewhat dramatic repudiation of a political alliance, albeit in pretty desperate circumstances.  By that stage, many of the constitutionalists were perceived as little better than jacobins and in any case, Lafayette’s behaviour was perceived to be rather equivocal and he was distrusted by both sides.  She may equally have considered that she would have been flinging herself from the frying pan into the fire. 
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on June 11, 2012, 10:49:42 AM
Clearly she did not trust La Fayette -- and foolishly so -- despite the many proofs of his loyalty. He had saved her first from an angry mob by appearing together with her on the balcony of the palace at Versailles on October 6, 1789 and a second time when he lied that she and Louis had been "abducted" by "enemies of the revolution" during their flight to Varennes in June 1791.

What makes me say that that M-A desired death more than life was that despite the fact that she had narrowly escaped mob lynching just a few days before on June 20, 1792 in the Tuilleries, M-A still preferred death to any help from La Fayette, help which would have militarily restored the royal authority, albeit a constitutional, not absolute one.

Perhaps she was ready to die for her ideal of absolute monarchy when rejecting La Fayette's help for a constitutional monachy, but something makes me doubt that. She had two little children which would have had to die also together with their mother (the Dauphin did share her fate, not on a scaffold, but died nevertheless as result of purposeful neglect); however, no mother would sacrifice that much on the altar of any political idealism. That's why I think she was probably subconsciously desiring death for other reasons, not political, but for matters of the heart (such as missing Axel and/or Gabrielle)...
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on June 11, 2012, 11:14:07 AM
It's possible, but to be honest the decision, if looked at in the light of what Marie Antoinette believed to be Lafayette's untrustworthiness at the time, appears to have more to do with practical common sense than with desiring death.  Great ladies of the eighteenth century would always "rather die" than surrender their honour, and deal shamefully with their enemies; I'm not convinced that there's evidence that Marie Antoinette thought there really was absolutely no way out other than by taking up Lafayette's offer of help at that stage.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on June 11, 2012, 11:22:10 AM
I doubt she had any common sense left in her at that late stage in her tragedy: she was still dreaming of her nephew in Vienna invading France and putting to death many Frenchmen to restore her and Louis as absolute monarchs. And after the Austrians were to eventually leave, once the restoration achieved, how would she stay on her throne with so many enemies around?! She had no common sense!

Rejecting the only help available after being almost mob lynched a second time in the Tuilleries?! No common sense!  

Once we throw out common sense, what is left is emotions, strong ones, such as love (for whomever). Only such strong emotions could help make any sense of her senseless decisions.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on June 12, 2012, 03:05:28 AM
Quote
she was still dreaming of her nephew in Vienna invading France and putting to death many Frenchmen to restore her and Louis as absolute monarchs.

But if she was still believing the Austrians would help restore the monarchy, she must have thought she had options, however much people in the clearer light of the present time might think these were far-fetched.  She had actually stared down a mob who had not harmed her, however shocked and frightened she might have been, and may have thought that if she survived that the danger wasn't so terrible - not realising that a lynch mob wasn't the greatest threat.  Certainly Antonia Fraser's biography suggests that it wasn't until rather later, when the king was executed, that she went into an almost catatonic state of shock, suggesting that up till that point she may have some inner hopes that the royal family might be saved.  The one who more clearly seemed to see his fate was Louis XVI (who was reading about Charles I of England in prison) but I don't think it was the mob or Lafayette or thinking of old friends which put Marie Antoinette into real fear, for her children's life in particular.  It seemed to be the king's death which really brought things home to her.  But I don't think that ties in with an earlier suicidal desire for death, on the basis of emotional attachment to people who were perfectly safe elsewhere, but with what had been the problem all along - political ineptness and misjudgement of character (although plenty of far more politically savvy people misjudged Lafayette).  The terrible vision of hindsight seems to present an inexorable path to the guillotine - but because she didn't take what we now see as possibly a last chance to get out (though of course it doesn't follow that Lafayette would have been able to make good on his offer), it doesn't mean she saw it that way, or saw death as inevitable then.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on July 14, 2012, 10:37:34 PM
The DVD of the movie "Les adieux a la reine" will be released on September 18. For those with an European region DVD player:
http://www.amazon.fr/Les-adieux-reine-Benoît-Jacquot/dp/B008FR3MZU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342323103&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.fr/Les-adieux-reine-Benoît-Jacquot/dp/B008FR3MZU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1342323103&sr=8-1)
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on July 22, 2012, 07:25:26 PM
"Farewell, My Queen

Opens on Friday in New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco." (NYT 07.13.2012). It must have already opened, according to NY Times. You can read the full movie review here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/13/movies/farewell-my-queen-set-at-versailles.html

Movie times in 4 states, CA, NY, IL, Louisiana:
http://www.showtimes.com/movies/farewell-my-queen-32020/movie-times/

Rotten Tomatoes review:
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/farewell_my_queen/
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 22, 2012, 08:05:40 PM
I will reserve judgement on this film until I see it. Most likely on DVD as I travel so much and I doubt it will be shown on a flight anytime soon.  I was most dissapointed with the previous MA effort,  by Coppola. So far, the reviews seem to be positive for this project.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on July 23, 2012, 08:56:23 AM
I will reserve judgement on this film until I see it. Most likely on DVD as I travel so much and I doubt it will be shown on a flight anytime soon.  I was most dissapointed with the previous MA effort,  by Coppola. So far, the reviews seem to be positive for this project.

I saw it on a transatlantic Air France flight coming back to the US... Yes, the reviews are mostly good. I personally enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 23, 2012, 09:31:58 AM
That is good news P of T.  Perhaps BA will show it as well. In any case, I will back to Britain  soon enough to pick it up when I am there.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on July 24, 2012, 07:20:41 PM
The movie is now being shown in 9 states:
http://www.showtimes.com/movies/farewell-my-queen-32020/movie-times/
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: pers on August 03, 2012, 05:56:41 PM
I saw the movie last weekend here in metropolitan Washington DC.  I cannot say that I really liked it.  It was not shot within the Queen's apartments.  Parts of it was supposedly shot in Le Petit Trianon.  Knowing the layout of both places visually and plan wise, it is clear that they used other venues - unless things have changed dramatically, it has been some years since I have been there...  They used the outside of the buildings in the film and the Galerie des Glaces. Interesting the take on Mme Campan and Rose Bertin. Would like to hear what other members thought of the movie.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on August 11, 2012, 03:24:21 PM
10 movie excerpts with English subtitles:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6D48403FA4CA2120&feature=plcp
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on August 27, 2012, 04:06:34 PM
A lavish, balanced documentary about Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette (part 1 of 4):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpDTqmWiQ40
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on January 31, 2013, 11:57:15 PM
Farewell My Queen (2012)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6QncB4YKlE
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on February 02, 2013, 05:19:41 PM
Those of us who met the late Archduke Otto von Habsburg (1912-2011) and shook his hand, must have realized that they had been only 4 handshakes away from meeting Marie Antoinette... She met her nephew, the future Emperor Francisc II of Austria, while he was young, who later shook the hand of his grandson, the future Emperor Franz Joseph I (who was 5 when Francisc died), who later shook the hand of Archduke Otto (who was 4 when Franz Joseph died). Those who may meet Otto's children would be only 5 handshakes away from meeting Marie Antoinette...
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: newfan on February 02, 2013, 08:00:31 PM
Farewell My Queen (2012)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6QncB4YKlE
Is this movie possible to watch with English subtitles?
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 02, 2013, 10:59:23 PM
Should be on DVD soon.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on February 04, 2013, 11:39:15 AM
DVD and BlueRay available on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Farewell-My-Queen-Diane-Kruger/dp/B009TT0BSE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1359999503&sr=8-2&keywords=farewell+my+queen
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 04, 2013, 02:02:45 PM
Good Price too. below USD 20.00.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Silja on February 10, 2013, 02:14:13 PM
I thought the idea of presenting the atmosphere of Versailles from the point of view of the servants rather original, but the film was rather boring in my opinion.
Marie Antoinette came across as rather bitchy I thought.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 10, 2013, 06:07:49 PM
She could be in her own way. I think after reading her spat with Madame Du Barry was actually quite childish, she had nothing against her but for her low social stature and morals.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on April 01, 2013, 07:58:38 PM
I watched the movie again recently. Based on it, I do not think M-A was a lesbian. She did have a very close friendship with Gabrielle (one sided, as Gabrielle took advantage of M-A - money, titles for her family - and deserted her at the first chance), but not a sexual one. Diane Kruger who played M-A seems to agree with this viewpoint in her interviews. The director did try to sell the story as a lesbian triangle, but I think it was just a commercial ploy (a successful one).
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on April 06, 2013, 07:14:41 PM
Louis XV whose last words were supposedly "after me the deluge" proved to be sadly true. Louis XVI would have to have been a political genius ect with a whole lot of luck to have survived what was to come. He wasn't and paid the ultimate price. Also note it was Frances involvement in the American Revolution, without which the Americans would of lost is what pushed France beyond the point of no return fiscaly and started the french Revolution. As for MA her expenses were small compared to the cost of the above war.  While MA gets the blame for wasting money Louis XVIs two brothers I believe each spent money just as fast or faster than she did. While MA gets damned for her unpopularity I would hardly call Louis XVIs two brothers and the rest of the french royal family popular. I must also point out there were a number of occations during the french revolution where with a little luck and some greater political smarts Louis XVI could have saved his throne and his life.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 06, 2013, 11:08:18 PM
Napoleon once said had Louis XVI seized the moment and stand with his armies, he would have won the day. Louis's indecision cost him his life and his families too.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: ivanushka on April 08, 2013, 02:47:22 PM
I do not think M-A was a lesbian.

Neither do I.  It's significant I think that her two closest female friends; Gabrielle de Polignac and the Princesse de Lamballe were both a few years older than she was.  I've always suspected that Antoinette was trying to recreate her relationship with her sister Caroline - who was probably the family member she was closest to growing up and also, probably the one she missed the most.  I think she wanted affection from a supportive older female but there was no desire for physical intimacy.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on April 08, 2013, 09:04:48 PM
It seems that the absolutely standard response to any form of royal favoritism in the eighteenth century to assume that the favorite of whatever gender was the mistress or lover of the royal in question, or if they were too young, of their parents or older siblings.  Sometimes of course this was indeed the case, such as Louis XV and Mmes de Pompadour, du Barry et al, but not always.  Therefore, Lord Bute was thought to be the lover of George III's mother, Sir John Acton the lover of Queen Maria Carolina of Naples, and Gabrielle de Polignac and the Princesse de Lamballe were credited with being Marie Antoinette's lovers.  Partly of course this malice was due to the jealousy of the favourites' close hold on very valuable royal patronage, but generally the age of enlightenment was pretty cynical with regard to genuine friendship and not inclined to believe that was all there was.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Prince of Tides on May 19, 2013, 05:01:16 PM
I may have been wrong re: M-A's friendship with Gabrielle. It may not have been so one-sided as I had thought based on the movie Les Adieux... alone. Gabrielle dies in exile "of heartbreak and suffering" shortly after hearing the news of M-A's execution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yolande_de_Polastron#Illness_and_death
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Clemence on March 16, 2014, 09:44:26 AM
Something I didn't know about the queen and found really interesting:

http://theharlotharpsagain.blogspot.gr/2012/09/marie-antoinettes-psa-for-small-pox.html

Quote
Inoculations have not always been popular, and we see that today with many individuals, interest groups, and protestors pointing an accusing finger at inoculations being the cause of the accelerated number of children with autism.  This skepticism of inoculations dates way, way back, but Marie Antoinette may have been the first person to launch a public relations campaign or rather a public service announcement to rally disbelieving people to take inoculations for Small Pox or what was also known as the Red Death and Speckled Monster, and she did this all using her hair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTHL6e9xta0

look at 3.05
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: amelia on March 16, 2014, 10:13:30 AM
Marie Antoinette was also the first person to have her teeth corrected with wires - her mother made her wear wires in her teeth because they were irregular.

Amelia
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Selencia on May 04, 2014, 10:23:24 PM
Marie Antoinette was tragic, but some of the blame for her fate was her own. She reminds me of Alexandria in encouraging her husband to not accept the changing politics around them and the changing role of the sovereign.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 04, 2014, 11:09:05 PM
Yes but her husband bears most of the blame. He was the one who let situation driven by itself. Napoleon once said "Had he "Louis XVI" the courage to ride to face the mob with an army, he would have won the day"...
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: prinzheinelgirl on May 30, 2014, 06:02:35 AM
Evidence has it that Marie Antoinette made crucial mistakes - whether by commission or omission - that contributed in no little terms to the decline of the monarchy... had she had the support of either the nobles or the commoners, perhaps the end wouldn't have been so bad for them. I agree that their end was tragic and she didn't deserve it. I don't agree with the excuse that she was so "sheltered", she didn't know what was happening to the French people or the country. It was more like, she didn't want to know until it was too late. Having a capricious mind and emotions didn't help either.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: heavensent on May 30, 2014, 10:50:32 AM
Makes you wonder  , where were all the loyal regiments to protect the Royal Family ?

A rabble  marched to Versailles.... the  so called  "Womens  March...."   chanting all night outside
the  palace.... A  Paris   A    Paris  ....  and the  stupid    King Louis  16th... to placate the
mob  agreed to go with them to  Paris  and  to his personal doom....

  He was obviously an idiot...  La Fayette... who was present that night  was  pathetic  too

Makes you realise  just how  degenerate  the  French  Monarchy...  the  French  Aristocracy... the  French  Military ..
really were back then.


 Imagine  the  scenario in  England... the mob  marching to    Windsor Castle   (  England's equiv of  Versailles  )   demanding  that  the  King and his family  get in a coach and return with them to London
...    I think the mob would have been cut to pieces by the Guards and a few other regiments to boot !
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Превед on May 30, 2014, 01:02:49 PM
Imagine  the  scenario in  England... the mob  marching to    Windsor Castle   (  England's equiv of  Versailles  )   demanding  that  the  King and his family  get in a coach and return with them to London
...    I think the mob would have been cut to pieces by the Guards and a few other regiments to boot !

Are you not aware of the fact the English executed their King already in 1649 and the following monarchs had to bow to parliament in ways that were unthinkable in France untill 1789?

It's in Russia that the guards would have massacred the mob!
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: DNAgenie on May 30, 2014, 06:02:06 PM
Quote
Imagine  the  scenario in  England... the mob  marching to    Windsor Castle   (  England's equiv of  Versailles  )   demanding  that  the  King and his family  get in a coach and return with them to London
...    I think the mob would have been cut to pieces by the Guards and a few other regiments to boot !

There was a scenario enacted like this in England in 1848, when a gathering of thousands of Chartists met at Kennington Common and proposed to march into London to demand the franchise for all male citizens.

The government was so scared that the royal family might be targeted that they bundled Queen Victoria and her family off to the Isle of Wight for their safety. However they were also horrified at the thought of soldiers firing on their own people, so the army was kept in reserve, and special constables were sworn into the police force to deal with the situation. In the event, the "mob" listened to reason, and instead of hundreds of thousands of people invading London, the leaders were allowed to proceed to Parliament in a fleet of taxis to present a petition with hundreds of thousands of names. So the outcome was very different from the French Revolution, 50 years earlier.

Back in 1789 the English King was George III, who did not live at Windsor Castle but at Kew, where he lived a quiet life and did not antagonize his subjects.  Except possibly in America, where they were hardly in a position to invade Windsor Castle, or Kew, and that was the British governments' fault anyway, not King George's.
Title: Re: Queen Marie Antoinette, Part II
Post by: Suzanne on November 12, 2015, 01:24:15 PM
My 2nd book, Queenship and Revolution in Early Modern Europe: Henrietta Maria and Marie Antoinette has been published by Palgrave Macmillan as part of the Queenship and Power series

http://www.palgrave.com/page/detail/queenship-and-revolution-in-early-modern-europe-carolyn-harris/?sf1=barcode&st1=9781137497727

All the best

Carolyn Suzanne Harris