Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Myth and Legends of Survivors => Topic started by: Abrams on April 08, 2004, 07:36:25 PM

Title: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abrams on April 08, 2004, 07:36:25 PM
My readings of "Anastasia, The Lost Princess" by James Blair Lovell have brought about many questions which I cannot answer.  First of these is that if Anna Anderson was not Anastasia, how can you explain these facts:

Anna Anderson had many physical characteristics similar to that of Anastasia.  For example, the bunions on her feet, the scar on her right shoulder, and the small scar on her left hand, along with her height and such.  Could some of these have just been created by her somehow as part of a hoax?  The bunions seem kind of hard to fake, and they were reported to be so severe that they have to have been present at birth.  Coincidence?

And if this was a hoax, why would Anna Anderdson risk her life and jump from a bridge into a river to simulate a suicide?  Why would she have not done something less risky to make herself "known"?  Could she have actually measured the depth of the water and the height of the bridge to insure her survival?

And if she was a Polish factory worker, where would she have the time or the resources to learn so much about Anastasia Romanov?  Even many small details few people, if any, knew about.  In 1920, the year Anna Anderson jumped, Poland was involved in the Russo-Polish War.  I would imagine factories would be quite busy during this time, making it hard for Anna to learn so much about Anastasia.  

Although I know nothing of the education system in Poland in the early 1900's, I would imagine a person who ended up as a factory worker would not know more than one of two languages.  During her time in the asylum, she reportedly spoke both Russian and English in her sleep.  This suggests that she could fluently speak both of these languages.  Plus she also spoke German when awake (if I remember correctly).

And how did so many people who had seen here before her disappearance confirm that she was Anastasia?  Pierre Gilliard said Anna Anderson was not Anastasia because she could not, or refused to, speak Russian, and because of the religion "crossed herself as" (she "crossed herself" in the manner of a  Roman Catholic rather than in the fashion of  the Russian Orthodox Church, but this could be because her wedding, if it occurred, was held "Roman Catholic style").  Anna Anderson said she did not speak Russian after the execution because it brought back too many memories.  And from her talking in her sleep, it is clear that she did speak Russian.

Lastly, it is reported that Russian Bolsheviks were looking for a missing body for weeks after the execution on July 19, 1918.  Could it be that Anastasia did make it out alive, or did the Bolsheviks somehow lose one of the bodies?  

Although it may seem that I believe Anna Anderson was Anastasia, I really don’t know.  The DNA tests say that she was not, but it just seems unlikely that someone could resemble and know so much about a person to this degree without being that person.  I’m trying to keep an open mind about it.  So if anyone can explain some "facts" about Anna Anderson, please do so.  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on April 08, 2004, 08:31:32 PM
The mtDNA is conclusive and without doubt. nothing more needs be "explained" at least as regards Anastasia Nicholaievna. As for whether Anna Anderson was the Polish peasant or not, that is the domain of elsewhere as she was not a Romanov relation, regardless of her true origins.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: JM on April 08, 2004, 08:44:27 PM
If it wasn't for the mtDNA I would be inclined to believe Anna is Anastasia. There are so many things about her that can not be explained by science.

It is all circumstantial evidence, which can be denied in favour of science. But, I will still keep my mind open ;D.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abrams on April 08, 2004, 11:11:53 PM
Yeah, probably just plan set up by a group of people to get money.  My guess is that a few people took this person who had similar features that Anastasia had and took advantage of this.  Maybe setting up the scars and such, teaching her about the family, even other lanuages, all in an atempt to get money.  Well, who knows, I'm probably wrong.  But at least that sort of makes sence..
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Lisa on April 09, 2004, 04:18:44 AM
I think that Anna really bandaged to be Anastasia. To be Anastasia was for her a psychological refuge, then she really thought of being her... I must say  that I find the case of Anna really very sad and tragic.I remember her in an interview right before his death. She said "if I am not Anastasia,then who am I ?" One felt really a distress and like a call in his answer to the journalist...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 09, 2004, 04:02:30 PM
Sometimes people want to believe things so much that they [almost] become so . . . and certainly the truth to them.  :'(

Still, I'll continue to hold a 1 or 2 % possibility that Anna might be Anastasia . . . the world is full of mysteries that will never be 100% solved.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Ilana on April 10, 2004, 01:29:48 PM
I think that Janet is on to something here.  I believe that Anna Anderson believed in her core that she was Anastasia... she could have taken a lie detector test and passed it.  It reminds me of OJ... by the end of the trial, he was utterly convinced that he didn't do the murders, and I think really believed it... not that anyone else did.  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet_W. on April 10, 2004, 02:09:57 PM
Yes, Ilana, it was on the tip of my tongue (or would that be fingertips?!) to mention O.J.  I think some people are in such complete denial that they fall prey to their own lies, subterfuge, and/or disillusions, and end up truly convinced that they are Napoleon, or that they didn't commit such-and-such an action.  The mind and subsconcious work in strange, strange ways!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Adele on April 10, 2004, 03:56:23 PM
Can there ever be a chance that DNA testing is contaminated somehow?  Is the test 100% certain?

The reason I'm asking is (1)  I'm not a scientist and (2) I know in the case of carbon testing, there can be, indeed, contamination.

I'm thinking, right now, of the Shroud of Turin; I was watching a PBS special on it the other evening and was appalled that the people who were repairing the shroud were not wearing gloves.  It was shocking to me.  If anyone even breathes on the part they use for carbon testing, it can render the test void (or inconclusive).  They didn't even mention this in the PBS Special, tho.

I once saw the gentleman being interviewed on TV---the man who invented Carbon testing---and he was listing all the ways the test can go wrong.   So, I am thinking perhaps the same is with DNA testing?

But maybe there's a scientist out there who can contribute to this discussion?

--Adele
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 11, 2004, 11:38:21 AM
Adele: The only scientist who posts here appears to have his own set of biases.

The preponderance of evidence indicates that the murders indeed took place when they were said to and that in the process of trying to dispose of the evidence,  that two bodies disappeared.

The first test of mt DNA in the maternal line of Victoria Regina took place in the mid-1990's. The very much alive Princess Katherine of Yugoslavia (b.1959) had her blood drawn and the sample was tested at Brown University. The scientist who posts here will try to tell you that because no one has published the results of her mtDNA testing, that the results of her privately funded test are invalid. You know, I never realized that publishing test results that powerful! Seriously, no scientist that I know questions these results.

Several months after the first test, a blood sample was taken from Prince Philip, who is, as we know, also very much alive. His and Katherine's mtDNA exactly matched, and their mtDNA, matches the mtDNA of the purported remains of Alexandra and her three daughters from the "grave" in the Koptyaki Forest.

Recently some scientists have question the validity of some of these tests. If you want to read more about this subject, you may wish to read "Fate of the Romanovs: by King and Wilson and "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" by Massie.

Happy Easter
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: RobMoshein on April 11, 2004, 11:49:58 AM
Adele,
Some while back, I contacted Dr. Terry Melton who performed the Anna Anderson mtDNA analysis. I asked her specifically and directly if she felt that there were any flaws in their analysis or possiblity of contamination which might have impacted their results.  Dr. Melton remains today one of the world's leading DNA analysts and her testimony is accepted as accurate by the US and UK court systems.  Her answer was an unequivocal assertion that proper protocols were followed, there was no possible contamination of specimens, and their mtDNA analysis was exact. Nothing has changed in their method of performing this work except that which used to be done by hand is now done by machine. She said that her results were 100% accurate and without doubt remain so today: Anna Anderson was in no way related to Alexandra Feodrovna.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Namarolf on April 11, 2004, 12:04:27 PM
Even if there were grounds to believe some tests concerning the "royals" may have been "contaminated", I have heard Anderson's DNA matches that of some people in the Schanzkowski family, isn't so?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abrams on April 11, 2004, 11:12:24 PM
Does the DNA of Anna Anderson confirm that she was Franziska Schanzkowski?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: David_Newell on April 12, 2004, 03:27:20 AM
I believe so. But I too have always wondered about her knowledge. I think she had what used to be called animal cunning. I do not mean this unkindly, but I think she could make people believe she knew more than she really did. She was able to win people over and so many of those who saw her really wanted to believe that she was Anastasia Nicolievna. So they may have been swept along by it all. I think she really did believe it herself. A poor sad lady, who certainly suffered for it.

David Newell, London
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Namarolf on April 12, 2004, 07:39:43 PM
Well, she managed to live in a fairly comfortable style for 62 years without working, and also to be treated as "royalty" by many -including people sending her money orders she never cashed. I guess many people around the world would beg for half what she received. May be her last years were very sad, but mostly due to the way she treated people.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abrams on April 12, 2004, 08:41:02 PM
Still, a Polish factory worker knowing three languages?  Even being able to correct what mistakes people made when discribing Anastasia's childhood?  Nice mystery there....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Namarolf on April 12, 2004, 09:20:17 PM
We don't know much about Franziska's life before 1920, do we? She may have learned some English in Berlin before jumping to the Landwehr Canal, and even some French. I have met waiters who speak 3 or 4 languages and can't even write properly their own. As far as I know, she was from a region where she may have heard Russian often -so she could have been able to understand the language, but not to speak it.

About correcting mistakes.... mistakes by whom? A few former retainers, officers and so, who had lost their country or their families, who could have been terribly confused themselves and who weren't really close to the real Anastasia for a long time?

I have always wondered why in 42 years no one seemed to be interested in a meeting of the claimant with Anna Vyrubova, the only survivor who had really shared the family life intimately. I think she would have been exceptionally qualified to say "she is" or "she isn't", not certainly aunt Irene -the claimant first choice....

The fact that Mrs. Tchaikovsky-Anderson never said  -not even once as far as I know-, "I want to see Anya", may mean something... If the claimant really "believed" she was Anastasia, that meeting would have been just a logical request. But she didn't asked for it.

Ms. Vyrubova didnt show either any special interest in the claimant -something quite peculiar for a person who was so close to the family.

Oh, I know Mrs Tchaikovsky wanted to meet the Dowager Empress... May be she or the people around thought Maria Fyodorovna, an aged women bearing such a tragedy, could become as confused the way GD Olga  was at some point, not having seen her niece in so many years and after what could have been a terrible ordeal. But probably they felt -in the 1920's or in the 1950's- that a meeting with Anna Vyrubova would have been an absolute fiasco for the claimant.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: BobAtchison on April 12, 2004, 10:09:59 PM
As I have said before my Polish great-grandmother spoke four languages - unfortunately none of them was English.  Being invited to lunch was always a great mystery, we never knew what we were eating or what she was saying.  My brothers and I were always frightened of being left alone with her... she was always trying to sneak us off to church... we had never been baptised and she was determined to save our souls.

French, German, Russian and Polish - we couldn't understand any of them.  It must have been very frustrating for her.

I must say I have met many Polish factory workers that speak more than one language - I think back then you had to know at least two or three depending on where you lived and which great power was occupying you...  poor Poland!

Bob
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Robert_Hall on April 13, 2004, 02:51:11 AM
Bob,
I know the feeling !  My grandmothers spoke Russian or Greek- but NOT to us ! We never really knew what they were talking about !
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on April 13, 2004, 09:12:30 AM
My Polish factoryworker grandmother from Warsaw, born in 1890, spoke Polish, German, Yiddish and English, all fluently. Russian less fluently.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet_W. on April 13, 2004, 04:06:43 PM
Poor Poland is right!  Multi-lingual, due largely to its geographical location, but much more put upon than that other centrally located nation, Switzerland!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mark Byron on April 13, 2004, 10:35:14 PM
Just my two cents on this subject. As fancinating as the Anna Anderson story/mystery is. I could never get beyond the fact that she just didn't look like Anastasia at all! No resemblance! Ears or no ears! Which brings us back to how she pulled it off for so many years, in the first place.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 14, 2004, 01:01:26 AM
I've always believed so many people believed AA because the idea that the entire Imperial Family was murdered was so difficult for the Russian emigre community to fathom. Denial as we now know is a necessary part of the grieving process. Peter Kurth tells us the story of Anastasia is really a story of emigres and he is right.

So, while we don't see the resemblance (no one I know does), for people who had lost their country, their leader, their homes, and most if not all their material assets - the idea of one grand duchess surviving was just too compelling to pass by.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mark Byron on April 14, 2004, 11:42:25 AM
Good point, Lisa! Thank you for your insight.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2004, 06:59:08 PM
In the case of kidnapping or mysterious disapearance of a loved one, it is not uncommon for parents, relatives and friends to never give up hope in finding the one lost.

Did the mother of Nicholas II and the uncrown Michael ever state that she thought either son had died?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on April 14, 2004, 07:09:18 PM
A thought just poped into my head.

This would have been true of Schanzkowski  family if one of their own suddenly disapeared.  Do we know of any police reports telling us when Franziska Schanzkowski was missed?  Were there any marks of idenification for the police to notice?  

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abrams on April 14, 2004, 07:42:57 PM
She was reported to be missing at the time I do believe, in fact Franziska Schanzkowski's family members went to see if Anna Anderson was in fact the missing person they were looking for.  If I remember correctly, they quickly came to the conclusion that she was not the missing family member they were after, although they did believe at first that she did resemble her.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: BobAtchison on April 14, 2004, 08:52:37 PM
It seems the story is more complicated than that.  have you read Robert Massie's book?

Bob
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet_W. on April 14, 2004, 10:26:30 PM
I also agree with Lisa.  But how to explain the support that Gleb and Tatiana Botkin showed her?  This is one of the few reasons I reserve some skepticism re: those who say Anna Anderson isn't Anastasia!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 15, 2004, 12:41:56 AM
I've also thought the Botkins were not as close to the Imperial Family as they portrayed.  So, they may have not picked up on the differences that other people saw.

Also, they undoubtedly grieved for their father and it may have helped them better deal with their loss to think that at least Anastasia survived the murder room.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: BobAtchison on April 15, 2004, 09:32:55 AM
Lisa is right - they didn't know them as well as Gleb would have liked people to assume.  Botkin kept them away from the family on purpose.  I don't know if Gleb saw the girls in person more than 4 or 5 times over 5 years - and these meetings weren't long.

Gleb was down on his luck when he met up with Anna Anderson.  Sudeenly everything changed for him.  I think he hoped it was her at first but then realised she was a fraud (remember he even admits her inability to speak Russian bothered him). After discovering the truth he 'stayed on the bandwagon' - what choice did he have?  Imagine the embarassment and ruin that would have come if he had admitted he had been wrong?

Bob
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 15, 2004, 11:51:52 AM
But apparently he never told his daughter of his misgivings; I remember, from a documentary, her shock and disbelief upon hearing that Anna Anderson's DNA did not match.

To followup, did Dr. Botkin keep his children separate from the royal children for professional reasons? And is the story about the children's interest in Gleb's drawings just a story?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: BobAtchison on April 15, 2004, 12:21:19 PM
Janet:

I have "The Real Romanovs" by Gleb Botkin and I read his accounts of his meetings as he states them - there were hardly any.  Maybe somebody can dispute this if they want and show us evidence of more meetings.

It seems most of his information was passed to him by his father and others.

Tatiana Botkina Melnik may be different - I don't have her book.  Maybe somebody who has it can tell us what she says.

It's interesting what you say about the pictures - I hadn't thought of that.

Dr. Botkin is hard for me to figure out - maybe somebody else can comment on him and his relationship with the Imperial family and his own.

Bob

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 15, 2004, 01:04:26 PM
Yes, I hope those who have read Tatiana Botkin's memoirs can provide more information.

According to a documentary, the last message sent from the Romanovs was a quickly penciled note from Olga, sending Easter greetings to Tatiana and also some eggs.

The Fate of the Romanovs does provide some interesting information about Dr. Botkin.  He appears to have been a conscientious and compassionate man who did not always have an easy life.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Peter Kurth on April 15, 2004, 10:48:26 PM
Lisa -- you don't know enough scientists.  All kinds of scientists have and continue to question these results, largely on the basis of chain of custody of both the Ekaterinburg bones and the various Anna Anderson hair, blood and tissue samples.  Science -- even DNA science -- is not static.  It is fluid, and it is always, constantly revised.  There is no exception to this, as any honest scientist will tell you.

I wouldn't butt in here, and I doubt that Rob will allow my post, but my name does come up rather a lot whenever the subject of AA is raised.  I'm not concerned about anyone's *opinion* regarding her claim -- but when it comes to the actual details of the case, and what is soundly, plainly and forever on the record -- well, I'd be remiss not to pipe up.  I'm sure you understand this.  pk


Quote


The scientist who posts here will try to tell you that because no one has published the results of her mtDNA testing, that the results of her privately funded test are invalid. You know, I never realized that publishing test results that powerful! Seriously, no scientist that I know questions these results.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 15, 2004, 10:57:00 PM
It's great to know that you are also checking into this site, Mr. Kurth!  I continue to enjoy your fascinating books about the last Romanovs, in particular the beautiful pictoral with the equally wonderful copy. (Having been to Livadia, I was thrilled to see its prominent inclusion!)  And regarding the student who has asked for our help in suggesting references for a research paper about the mystery of Anastasia, I am sure we will all be recommending your excellent materials on that subject.  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Peter Kurth on April 15, 2004, 11:07:02 PM
Quote
Well, she managed to live in a fairly comfortable style for 62 years without working, and also to be treated as "royalty" by many -including people sending her money orders she never cashed. I guess many people around the world would beg for half what she received. May be her last years were very sad, but mostly due to the way she treated people.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Peter Kurth on April 15, 2004, 11:20:12 PM
Actually, we know a great deal about Franziska's life before 1920 -- much more than has yet been published -- and we also know that none of her brothers and sisters understood a word of Russian when it was spoken to them.  If Franziska, in her various jobs as a farmer, a waitress and an assembly-line worker in a munitions plant, picked up other languages than German and the "Kaschoubian" dialect (*not* Polish!) of her childhood, it is nowhere on the record, and would belong in the same category, I guess, as the linguistic capacity of a lover I once had in Brussels, who worked as a telephone operator at the European Parliament and learned 5 or 6 languages badly, "in bed."

One day, someone may explain how "Franziska Schanzkowska" could play the piano without sheet music & speak fluent English, without lessons, after a single week on board the SS Berengaria, traveling from Cherbourg to New York.  But I doubt they will.  pk

Quote
We don't know much about Franziska's life before 1920, do we? She may have learned some English in Berlin before jumping to the Landwehr Canal, and even some French. I have met waiters who speak 3 or 4 languages and can't even write properly their own. As far as I know, she was from a region where she may have heard Russian often -so she could have been able to understand the language, but not to speak it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Peter Kurth on April 15, 2004, 11:22:28 PM
Bob -- I defy you!  I doubt you have met "many" Polish factory workers at all.  pk


Quote

I must say I have met many Polish factory workers that speak more than one language - I think back then you had to know at least two or three depending on where you lived and which great power was occupying you...  poor Poland!

Bob

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Peter Kurth on April 15, 2004, 11:23:39 PM
On the other hand, "Anna Anderson" *did* know what they were talking about -- that's the whole point.  pk


Quote
Bob,
I know the feeling !  My grandmothers spoke Russian or Greek- but NOT to us ! We never really knew what they were talking about !

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Peter Kurth on April 15, 2004, 11:31:08 PM
OK, I'm going to stop after this.  But don't misquote me, Lisa.  In my preface to "Anastasia," I did say it was a story about emigres, "blinded by their need for a miracle."  But I also said it was the story of a family, namely the Romanovs, who were (and are) "unable to speak an open word to one another," no matter what the issue or what the stakes.  I will also say that my experience of this case over 37 years has shown me that the overwhelming majority of people, Russian or otherwise, are "in denial" in the other direction than you think -- that is, they are SO traumatized, so suspicious, and so "grief-stricken" that they'd rather eat bugs for breakfast than admit that AA might have been genuine.  It was exactly among Russian emigres that she found her fiercest opponents, and exactly there, too, that the fewest number of people ever bothered to lay eyes on her.

Harumph.

pk


Quote


I've always believed so many people believed AA because the idea that the entire Imperial Family was murdered was so difficult for the Russian emigre community to fathom. Denial as we now know is a necessary part of the grieving process. Peter Kurth tells us the story of Anastasia is really a story of emigres and he is right.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: BobAtchison on April 16, 2004, 09:49:55 AM
Anna Anderson has been proven to be a fraud - she was not Anastasia.  The case is closed on her.  It's over.

Bob
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on April 16, 2004, 10:11:32 AM
Peter
As long as you refrain from personal attacks against others, watch your language (children come in here) and remain respectful of differing opinions, you are free to participate here.
FA
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Namarolf on April 16, 2004, 01:10:17 PM
Thanks Mr. Kurth, I guess I should ammend my post saying it is "me" (and not "us") who doesn't know much about Franziska's life before 1920.

It was funny reading about your Brussels lover linguistic talents -but may be Franziska had more language skills than her? With due respect to your friend, may be she was not as good as Franziska may have been concerning foreign languages. But anyway, I guess there is no confirmed reference to Franziska's knowledge of English or French before 1920, not to talk about playing the piano without sheet music.

If Mrs. Tchaikovski was not Franziska nor Anastasia, you have some idea of who may she had been?


Anyway, thanks for your time and my admiration for being so loyal and devoted to Mrs. Anderson -even after her death and when most people no longer believe she was who she said.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 16, 2004, 03:03:47 PM
One of the reasons I first became interested in the Romanovs was due to the mystery of Anastasia.  I read as much as possible about the subject, and for some time I was 50/50 re: whether she had survived or not.

I happen to think photos of  Anna Anderson Manahan do, on occasion, bear resembalance to the young Anastasia and/or her relatives. I'm also taking into consideration that people can age to the point that they hardly resemble who they once were.  

However, I do respect the DNA test.  I am very certain, from what I have read and also observed in documentaries, that the bones now resting at Peter and Paul Fortress are those of the prisoners at Ekaterinberg.  As for what happened to the bodies of Alexei and Marie or Anastasia . . . good question.  

In short, while I am almost completely convinced that Mrs. Manahan was not Anastasia, it will be interesting to "stand by" for additional discoveries and tests.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: LisaDavidson on April 17, 2004, 12:40:00 AM
Peter - I do not feel that I misquoted you in crediting you with your excellent insight into the context of the AA story. However, I have sufficient respect for you that if you feel misquoted - I will apologize.

As to the number of scientists I know - hey - I only know a few, the majority of my friends being historians or members of the auto racing community. As in the past, I respect your views on AA even if I don't share them.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: stepan on April 19, 2004, 05:08:17 PM
 Hallo everyone!  I have read Tatiana Botkin´s books(her memoires and the book about Anna Anderson,Anastasia retrouvée) and I understand that the Botkin´s diden´t meet the imperial children very often but I remember that they met in the crimea and were invited onboard the "Standart" to play with the grand duchesses and Alexej. They also saw them on other occasions and once during the war The empress and two of her daughters came to Botkin´s house on the Sadovaya street to inspect the patients  who stayed in Botkin´s house. Their father told them a lot what he saw and heard in the palace and often his stories were abour Anastasia who was a very funny little girl. Anyhow the Botkins apparently knew the family enough to be able to recognize them. Both Tatiana and Gleb seem to have been convinced that Anna Anderson was genuine. In her book Anastasia retrouvée she wrote that "from the first day I saw her I knew that Anna Anderson was Anastasia.I have never hesitated about that. Every gesture and trait in her caracter reminded me of the girl I knew in Tsarskoe selo".(My translation ) Tatiana tried to convince many people in France, among them white generals and grand dukes that Anderson was the grand duchess. They listened politely and some like grand duke Nikolaj Nikolaevich was really upset and said that Tatiana must get an audience with Maria Feodorovna because she was the only one who could decide anything in the matter. This never happened and finally Tatiana gave up her tries to convince people but her conviction was as strong as her brother Gleb´s was and remained so for the rest of her life. Gleb used to end his letters to Anna Anderson with the blessings of the godess Aphrodite. "May the godess bless your imperial highness".  Once the french jounalist Dominique Auclere asked Tatiana what she would say if Anna Anderson one day would tell her that she was not the grand duchess. Tatiana answered that "then she would really be crazy because it´s she allright".  But the mystery remains and it will probably go on forever. Because in spite of what the DNA says noone has been able to explain how AA could know what she did,the almost identical bodies etc. But that is what is so fascinating about it isen´t ? It catches our imagination like all unsolved mysteries and this is one of the greatest of the twentieth century.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet Whitcomb on April 19, 2004, 05:25:28 PM
Stepan, thank you for telling us about some of the contents of Tatiana Botkin's book.  For those of us who do not read French, it's terrific for someone to tell us about what she wrote!

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on July 01, 2004, 02:01:02 PM
According to another thread, the real Anatasia would not have called herself "Ana" or "Anna" since this is not the "nickname" used for Anatasia.  

I know she called herself Anna Anderson and before this  "Anastasia", before this [she claimed] she was Mrs. Alexander Tschaikowsky...

Back to her stay in  Dalldorf Asylum where she said she was Anastasia....

Who started to call her "Ana"?  I assume not anyone who was Russian since this is not the correct "nickname".  Anyone know who did?  German nurses?  German doctors?  Even so,  why was this incorrect name continued?  She continued this name by using the name Anna Anderson?

What I'm really asking is:  Why didn't she use the name Nastasia or Stasia instead of "Ana"?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Johnny on July 01, 2004, 02:40:56 PM
I am not so sure about it, but I think I read somewhere that she never called herself anything. Anna Anderson was sort of like the Jane Doe of the time, a common ultranational name that was used to identify her, since she initially didn't even remember her name or at least didn't want to share it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Candice on July 01, 2004, 05:46:51 PM
I can understand how people can make a mistake with likenesses, but  Anastasia Romanov and Anna Anderson's features are very different.  Even when comparing images of their body structure, I found a great difference too.

Two very different people.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: IlyaBorisovich on July 07, 2004, 04:53:12 PM
I've read that Anastasia played the guitar, or the balaliaka (it escapes me which).  Did Anna Anderson display any talent for stringed instruments?  Her piano playing has been mentioned in this thread, but what about any other instruments?

Ilya
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Candice on July 07, 2004, 05:10:48 PM
I under stand that Anastasia played the balaika, guitar, mandalin and a few other Russian string instruments.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: rskkiya on July 07, 2004, 07:27:08 PM
I read that Alexie was interested in the Balaliaka.( there was a teaching pamphet at the Ipatiev house in his room) but I thought that his sisters mostly played the piano.

I'm probably wrong tho... ;)

 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Lanie on July 07, 2004, 07:48:24 PM
Letter from Tatiana to Nicholas, 10 Oct 1915: "Anastasia is sitting beside me in the room and playing the balalaika."

Letter from Anastasia to Nicholas, 3 Oct 1915: "Tell Aleksey that I play the balalaika as well as the sisters." -- Sisters as in the other girls, I suppose?  So maybe each of the girls played the balalaika, with differing success (sort of like the piano as well?)..
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on July 08, 2004, 11:29:49 PM
I was left really scratching my head after reading "Anastasia: Riddle of Anna Anderson" and Anastasia: the Lost Princess".

She knew so many tiny details that it was astounding. How could she have known this stuff, as an imposter? If she wasn't Anastasia, she must have had contact with the Imperial family through a servant, or a staff member, or SOMETHING, to know how Anastasia bathed Shura in perfume, and the brown velvet texture of Alexandra's dress in a b/w photo, and the style of the tsar's pipe, and all the details about Felix Dassel from the war hospital--- how did she KNOW?! HOW!

And yet, DNA proves her to be F. Schanzkowska?!
It just doesn't add up. If Anderson was the factory worker, how did she know all that? I could've beleived the evidence easier if it proved her not to be Anastasia and not to be F. Schanzkowska, either.

And the scars, and hallux vagus?! This is another story... ???
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: tian79 on July 09, 2004, 01:33:04 AM
I’ve also wondered about all the things AA knew, but then again she also made mistakes.
Didn’t she say that Gibbes limped and Gilliard was hired as Aleksei’s tutor?

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: rskkiya on July 09, 2004, 08:37:37 AM
Hello all,


Regarding "Anna's" identity....
A non Grand Duchess could have gotten the scars in the explosion in the munitions plant  the very plant where where Fransisca  S. (Anna) worked, and the foot condition would come from standing for long hours in poorly made shoes... So its not that difficult to explain, really.

I was under the inpression that the DNA results had more or less closed this issue...

Oh I nearly forgot about her "knowing so many things"...well humans are social creatures and will often give subtle feedback (a smile, shining eyes, a half surpressed gasp) when someone else have made a lucky guess...so that "guess" becomes something that "works"...  

After all if people used to believe in "Clever Hans" the counting horse, why not Anna A.

R.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Alexa on July 09, 2004, 01:55:02 PM
Quote
Hello all,


Oh I nearly forgot about her "knowing so many things"...well humans are social creatures and will often give subtle feedback (a smile, shining eyes, a half surpressed gasp) when someone else have made a lucky guess...so that "guess" becomes something that "works"...  


R.



I agree.  Personally, I think she kept her ears and eyes open and soaked up as much information as she could, only to feed it back when approprite.  Besides, we don't hear much about all the things she had to have gotton wrong.  Kind of makes me think in terms of ESP; if a person gets a feeling not to get on a plane, and the plane takes off and lands safely, nothing more is thought of it.  If that plane crashes, the person is believed by some to have had a premonition and is suddenly psychic.  That's the way I feel about AA's stories.  The one's that were wrong have been forgotton about, but the ones she got right are pushed on the masses.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on July 23, 2004, 09:03:55 PM
Has anyone else noticed how AA, even as an elderly lady, almost always posed for pictures holding her mouth in the same flat, lip biting grin Anastasia was often seen to be sporting in photos? It seemed like a particular mannerism common to Anastasia, and I think she thought, or someone told her, that her features resembled Anastasia most with her mouth held in that position. I can't post all the pictures right now, but Mr. Kurth's website has a lot of good examples.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on July 23, 2004, 10:53:33 PM
I know exactly what you mean, Annie, and I've often thought that many times. Maybe she did it on purpose. Peter Kurth's website has the most excellent photos, I agree.

I felt kind of sorry for Anna Anderson after finishing each of her biographies. Whoever she was, it is a real mystery, and she lead one of the most intriguing lives I've ever heard of.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on July 24, 2004, 02:34:32 PM
Quote

Or maybe -- MAYBE -- she smiled like this because she WAS Anastasia...  8)



Jumping crickets!  Have you discovered something new about Anna Anderson ???

Or, are you just seeing if we're paying attention ::)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on July 24, 2004, 02:59:09 PM
Haha! Somebody help me get all these worms back in the can! ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 27, 2004, 06:45:35 PM
Candice,

I agree with you, Anna Anderson's features were so completely different from Anastasia's, even in her younger pictures. I don't see the resemblance AT ALL, and it's beyond me how anyone can think that she looked anything like Anastasia. On the other hand, looking at the pictures of Franciska Schankowska, it is obvious that she is the same person. I guess people see what they want to see, and it does make a nice story....

Helen

Quote
I can understand how people can make a mistake with likenesses, but  Anastasia Romanov and Anna Anderson's features are very different.  Even when comparing images of their body structure, I found a great difference too.

Two very different people.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 27, 2004, 07:02:46 PM
Abby, I think (and it's only my opinion) that Anna Anderson, aka Franciska Shankowska, was a mentally ill person who actually believed herself to be Anastasia. I don't think she was out to defraud anyone, or have financial gain, I think she really thought that this was her identity. This came through in her attitude and this is why she seemed so genuine. When someone really believes themselves to be something, they come off pretty convincing. Ask any psychiatrist, they will tell you this is often the case. Franciska Shankowska probably ended up with serious amnesia from the shock of the explosion she was involved in, then she didn't know who she was for a while, until someone suggested that she may be Tatiana, the last emperor's daughter (she does look a lot more like Tatiana than Anastasia in my opinion). Then someone else thought "she is too short to be Tatiana, she must be Anastasia". Of course this poor woman wanted to accept this as the truth, much better than being a Polish factory worker who is a "nobody". As to her knowing some things that were not privy to anyone else, this is a common phenomenon, and it is used by very good fortune tellers among others, someone already mentioned observing people's reactions and giving answers based on that. She may not have even realized that she is doing that, a human mind is a powerful thing, she probably thought her memories were real. And yes, it's true, there were just as many things she got wrong as she got right, and depending on whom you were talking to, her supporters or her enemies, you got the biased version of her answers, maximizing or minimizing the right ones. And of course the DNA tests put the final stamp on the whole thing. I have always found Anna Anderson's story very interesting and had been following the developments since the eighties, before the DNA tests, and I even thought "wouldn't it be neat of she really was Anastasia" but her apperance always really bothered me, I always thoughts is it possible for someone's features to change that much without plastic surgery? No, it's not. So I was really surprised when the DNA tests in the 90's showed that she was not Anastasia. It would have been nice if she was, but fact is, she was not.....

Helen

Quote
I know exactly what you mean, Annie, and I've often thought that many times. Maybe she did it on purpose. Peter Kurth's website has the most excellent photos, I agree.

I felt kind of sorry for Anna Anderson after finishing each of her biographies. Whoever she was, it is a real mystery, and she lead one of the most intriguing lives I've ever heard of.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 27, 2004, 07:07:03 PM
The sentence in my last posting should read "... I was not really surprised when the DNA tests.... Sorry, typo  :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 27, 2004, 07:13:43 PM
Adele,

The mtDNA was isolated from two different sources and the results were identical. Even if the DNA was contaminated, it would not match Franciska Shankowska's nepew, which it did. I am a scientist and I understand DNA results very well. There is absolutely no way that two different labs would contaminate two different samples in the exact same way way as to get the same results... Carbon testing is different from DNA... Sorry  :(
Quote
Can there ever be a chance that DNA testing is contaminated somehow?  Is the test 100% certain?

The reason I'm asking is (1)  I'm not a scientist and (2) I know in the case of carbon testing, there can be, indeed, contamination.

I'm thinking, right now, of the Shroud of Turin; I was watching a PBS special on it the other evening and was appalled that the people who were repairing the shroud were not wearing gloves.  It was shocking to me.  If anyone even breathes on the part they use for carbon testing, it can render the test void (or inconclusive).  They didn't even mention this in the PBS Special, tho.

I once saw the gentleman being interviewed on TV---the man who invented Carbon testing---and he was listing all the ways the test can go wrong.   So, I am thinking perhaps the same is with DNA testing?

But maybe there's a scientist out there who can contribute to this discussion?

--Adele

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 27, 2004, 07:22:24 PM
But Peter, Anna Anderson didn't speak fluent English, in fact her English sounded very ungrammatical, at least to me, from the documentaries I had seen of her...She sounded like someone who had learned the language (sort of) pretty late in life... But besides everything else, even disregarding the DNA tests, she just did not look anything like Anastasia! I know that this can be seen as a subjective thing, but I just don't see any resemblance at all !  ???

Quote
Actually, we know a great deal about Franziska's life before 1920 -- much more than has yet been published -- and we also know that none of her brothers and sisters understood a word of Russian when it was spoken to them.  If Franziska, in her various jobs as a farmer, a waitress and an assembly-line worker in a munitions plant, picked up other languages than German and the "Kaschoubian" dialect (*not* Polish!) of her childhood, it is nowhere on the record, and would belong in the same category, I guess, as the linguistic capacity of a lover I once had in Brussels, who worked as a telephone operator at the European Parliament and learned 5 or 6 languages badly, "in bed."

One day, someone may explain how "Franziska Schanzkowska" could play the piano without sheet music & speak fluent English, without lessons, after a single week on board the SS Berengaria, traveling from Cherbourg to New York.  But I doubt they will.  pkWe don't know much about Franziska's life before 1920, do we? She may have learned some English in Berlin before jumping to the Landwehr Canal, and even some French. I have met waiters who speak 3 or 4 languages and can't even write properly their own. As far as I know, she was from a region where she may have heard Russian often -so she could have been able to understand the language, but not to speak it.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: rskkiya on July 27, 2004, 08:32:35 PM
Dear Helen

Zdrasvudye... Kak dila?  (hello, whats up?)

   Peter can be very polite when the mood takes him, but he also possesses a fanatical faith in Anastasia/Francisca...  Rational statements such as "she didn't speak fluent English" tend to make no impression on him...

Good luck!

R.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Michelle on July 27, 2004, 08:55:39 PM
Boy, I don't know, rskkiya. . . Peter's book, The Riddle of Anna Anderson makes a lot of sense to me, even if some people believe Peter to be "fanatical."   ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: rskkiya on July 27, 2004, 09:10:28 PM
My  personal experience with this gentleman is that he has been known to become somewhat hysterical when confronted with contrary evidence-(this is purely my oppinion and ought in no way bias your own observations  ;))

Nevertheless he has composed some fine collections of Imperial photographs and some gorgeous coffee table books...if thats your cup of formosa oolong!

R.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 28, 2004, 08:49:07 AM
Michelle,

Yes, many of the things Peter said in his book do make sense, but everything still does come down to the fact that Anna Anderson did not look anything like Anastasia and that the DNA tests done on two different samples of her DNA from two different sources clearly showed that she couldn't have been Anastasia. I have nothing against Peter, he seems like a nice guy who is really passionate about the subject, and everyone is entitled to believe what they are enclined to believe, but sometimes it's good to take all the evidence into consideration and make a rational judgment, no matter what we really wish were the truth. It doesn't really matter that much what each of us believes anyway, the Anna Anderson story made a very interesting subject to write about and to read about for years and has probably been most responsible for keeping the memory of the last imperial family alive to the public for many years, so does it really matter in the end?

Helen

Quote
Boy, I don't know, rskkiya. . . Peter's book, The Riddle of Anna Anderson makes a lot of sense to me, even if some people believe Peter to be "fanatical."   ;)

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 28, 2004, 09:08:19 AM
Yes, I agree, Peter made some great contributions in a form of photograph collections and books, as you mentioned, and I myself own a few and enjoy looking at them and reading them, even though I don't always agree with his beliefs. It doesn't bother me in the least that he is of a different opinion to my own about Anna Anderson, so what? And it shouldn't really bother, let alone infuriate, anyone else. We are here to have an exchange of ideas about subjects we are all interested in, not to argue about who is right and who is wrong in their opinions, observations and beliefs, nor are we here to prove anything to anyone beyond a reasonable doubt.

Peter, keep up the good work as an author.

Helen

Quote
My  personal experience with this gentleman is that he has been known to become somewhat hysterical when confronted with contrary evidence-(this is purely my oppinion and ought in no way bias your own observations  ;))

Nevertheless he has composed some fine collections of Imperial photographs and some gorgeous coffee table books...if thats your cup of formosa oolong!

R.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on July 28, 2004, 09:14:10 AM
Helen, you speak very rationally, and I agree. With a case like the Romanovs', where even experts find themselves in heated arguments, we do ourselves no great service to argue about each other's beleifs, when in fact truth can be stranger than fiction and anyone could be right. I enjoyed the biographies of Anna Anderson (Lovell's and Kurth's) and even though some of the theories thrown out there were pretty wild, I have to remember that I wasn't there when all this was happening, and I am not an eyewitness to anything. I know probably a great deal less than I think I do about the whole murder/survival mystery, and all I DO know is what others have regurgitated so many times-- all of us here could probably write our own biographies on the Romanovs' last days, since we've read the same material over and over again.
I guess what I'm just trying to say is, we all should try to keep an open mind without straying too far from the hard evidence we know to exist.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on July 28, 2004, 10:04:47 AM
I agree, Helen has stated things in a concise and clear way.  I have spoken to Dr. Melton who performed the AA mtDNA testing, and Dr. Melton (who is a world recognized expert in forensic DNA analysis) is 100% convinced that AA was NOT Anastasia, and that the results are as accurate today as when performed. Bring on the thousands of pages of "extrinsic" evidence if you want, but this test is intrinsicly conclusive, IMO. Just because one cannot confirm AA WAS FS or not has no bearing on this result.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Adele Chatelain on July 28, 2004, 10:18:22 AM
Quote
Adele,

The mtDNA was isolated from two different sources and the results were identical. Even if the DNA was contaminated, it would not match Franciska Shankowska's nepew, which it did. I am a scientist and I understand DNA results very well. There is absolutely no way that two different labs would contaminate two different samples in the exact same way way as to get the same results... Carbon testing is different from DNA... Sorry  :(


Thanks for this information (and you don't have to be 'sorry'; I wasn't looking for any 'right or wrong' to this topic.  I really don't have any opinion about it, one way or the other, actually; but I do enjoy exploring possibilites.  --Adele
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Michelle on July 28, 2004, 08:16:51 PM
A lot of you might think that I am just plain blinded by wishful thinking, but I have to disagree that AA looked nothing like Anastasia.  A lot of the pictures I have seen are VERY convincing, however there are those others that definitely don't help her claim in the looks department.  A lot of times when I see both AA's and Anastasia's pics held up together, they look almost identical, and there are even those certain pictures where she reminds me quite a bit of Anastasia's sister, Tatiana (however nowhere near as gorgeous, which would make sense considering in my opinion Anastasia was not at all a beauty like her three sisters).  Infact I've seen pictures of Olga that are a dead ringer for Tatiana (sorry I'm getting off on a tangent  8) ).  However I've seen pictures of numerous people in my lifetime where a person looks completely different in each picture.  I'm sure this must've been the case with AA/Anastasia (assuming they were the same person).  I don't know but it just boggles my mind that the DNA came out to pin her down as FS.  Something smells fishy to me. . .  :-/
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on July 28, 2004, 08:18:43 PM
but i think she looks more like FS than Anastasia - I know we only have one picture to base this on, but she does.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on July 28, 2004, 08:22:08 PM
Quote
I don't know but it just boggles my mind that the DNA came out to pin her down as FS.  Something smells fishy to me. . .  :-/


From what I've heard, as early as the 1930's Franzika's siblings had recognized her as their missing, mentally ill sister and were trying to tell people but not all listened. Since the possibility of her being FS was there for so long, and there was no other clue to her identity,  of course that was going to be the first thing checked in a DNA test.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on July 28, 2004, 08:28:13 PM
Good point Annie. FS also had a disappearance timeline that matched Anna Anderson's, and this became evident after police and investigators tracked down all the missing persons of that time and decided that FS would be a good candidate. I think there was a time when Anna Anderson ran away from one of her benefactress' homes, and this coincided with the re-appearance of Fransizka at one of her friend's homes in Poland.

However I have read by Anna Anderson's supporters that Fransizka was documented at a hospital in Berlin or something in the 1920's, when there is proof that Anna Anderson was at a different place altogether.

I don't know what to beleive!  ???
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Michelle on July 29, 2004, 08:13:23 PM
Yes, that is true, Abby.  Except I believe I read in The Riddle of Anna Anderson and The Romanovs: The Final Chapter that Anna Anderson had actually appeared sometime in January 1920 (I don't have my book with me here at the moment so I could have the date wrong) and FS was accounted for at that time near her home, and reported missing in February 1920 (again the date might be wrong).  AA couldn't have been in two places at once.  It just doesn't make sense.  :-/
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: rskkiya on July 29, 2004, 08:18:03 PM
Michelle
I think that your dates " January /February 1920" are incorrect.  You might want to check them...
R.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Michelle on July 29, 2004, 08:55:35 PM
I tried to look up this info as best I could, for I don't own The Riddle of Anna Anderson by Peter Kurth (I read it when I borrowed it from the library about a year ago), and I've been skimming through The Romanovs: The Final Chapter, and for some reason I can't find where I read it (and no it's not because I had initially made it up  ::) ).  I KNOW I read it in the latter book, and it's making me mad that I can't find it!  >:(  Oh well.  I'll keep looking (however lazy I may be  ;) ;D )
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: stepan on July 31, 2004, 04:33:45 PM
Anna Anderson appeared the 17 of february 1920 when she jumped into the Landwehr canal in Berlin. Franziska disappeared around the same time though it´s not clear the exact date.  It seems that her landlady, the wingenders waited some time before reporting her missing to the police.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on July 31, 2004, 04:57:06 PM
1920? As much as I've seen and read on this subject, including both Kurth's and Lovell's books, I never noticed it was that early. I thought it was more into the mid 20's she appeared. If it was early 1920, to me that gives even less of a scant possibility her face had 'changed'- that was only a year and a half after Ekaterinburg. She was 17 when she vanished and eighteen and a half when found? Nahhh, either the date is wrong, or it's even more and more unlikely AA was Anastasia.

Also, wasn't FS like 3 or 4 years older than the real Anastasia?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: LisaDavidson on July 31, 2004, 10:21:48 PM
Franziska was born in 1896, and Anastasia in 1901.

"Anna Anderson" was first identified in early 1920.

I have never placed great store in someone looking like the IF as evidence per se - there are too many instances of unrelated people who look alike and related people who don't.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Alexa on August 01, 2004, 09:28:05 AM
Quote

"Anna Anderson" was first identified in early 1920.


I thought she wasn't identified as AN for several years, and was known as "Frau Unbekannt" (Mrs. Unknown) until she revealed her claim of being AN and that until then, she didn't speak.

Alexa
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2004, 09:45:09 AM
That would explain it then!

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 01, 2004, 12:06:07 PM
Alexa and Annie:

There is a difficulty in what to call the woman who was fished out of the canal. I thought you understood this.

Greg King has chosen to call her "Anastasia Manahan" even though this was not her name until the last years of her life. I find this acceptable and often use it myself.

More often than not. I call her "Anna Anderson" a name that dates from the late 1920's. Again, this name is just as acceptable as "Anastasia Manahan", because we all know to whom it refers - which is after all, the function of any name.

I do not call her "Anastasia" out of respect for the Grand Duchess. I do not call her "Franziska" out of respect for our friend Peter Kurth.

I find other appellations to be needlessly cumbersome and confusing - don't you? So, when I use either "Anna Anderson" or "Anastasia Manahan", I am referring to the woman fished out of the Berlin canal in 1920. Okay?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 01, 2004, 12:20:31 PM
Okay :) I think of her as AA mostly because of the book "The Riddle of AA". Mrs. Manahan is what she was later in life, and when I heard of her and got interested. She lived less than 100 miles from me! So while I respect that as her name and identity, AA seems to be more of the definition most people use and understand so that's usually what I type (in fact, I never used "AA" until I started posting here and saw others doing it) But you are right.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=8468&pt=Anastasia%20'Anna'%20Anderson-Manahan

Here is a site that shows her grave. In all the messages left for her, some are sweet, some are very rude, and some say RIP no matter who she was. One person put up a little picture of a kitty and said, "I don't know who you are, but I know that you loved cats." I love cats too. I heard when she died she owned many cats. So, regardless of who she was, she will always be a good person to me for the love she gave to cats. :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: DaneRomanov on August 13, 2004, 08:53:14 AM
Hiya, personally i dont believe that Anna Anderson was the Grand Duchess but what year was the blood test taken from hospital tissue? and do you think that is was possible that if someone claimed and were blood tested and turned out to be either one of the Grand Duchess's do you think that the goverment would have covered it up, and if this did happen do you think the goverment would have done to cover it up?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 13, 2004, 09:10:37 AM
We have several long threads on Anna here in this forum, you might be interested in reading them too.

Anna died in 1984. The tests were done in 1994 with tissue from an old operation she'd had. Her samples were matched with samples from Prince Phillip, (husband of QEII and grandson of Alexandra's sister) and Karl Maucher, grandson of Gertrude, the sister of Franziska Schanskowsa, the Polish woman Anna was rumored to be. The results showed no relation to Alexandra's family and a likely but not certain match to Franziska's family.

As to this question, I don't see any reason why any 'government' would want to cover anything up. First of all, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think it was ever a government who had anything to do with the testings. I really believe that if someone had been a Grand Duchess, everyone would have been excited by the news. I don't even buy the 'cover up for money' thing anymore, since there is no real evidence any money belonging to the Tsar or someone claiming to be his child even exists anymore. Sorry, I am one who believes the accusations of tampering and faked tests, as I said before, reek of 'a bad Days of Our Lives' plot :P
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet_W. on August 18, 2004, 01:14:40 PM
Does anyone know anything about John Manahan, the gentleman who married Anna Anderson--beyond the basic info, which most of us know, i.e., he was much younger than Anderson, he was a history professor, etc?

I've wondered how he was regarded before his marriage to Anderson, and also what happened to him after her death.

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 18, 2004, 02:17:50 PM
John was well regarded in his community prior to "Anastasia" coming into his life.

After her death, his behavior became more and more bizarre. I believe he remarried and died in the 1990's. Sorry, this is from memory and am away from my books.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet_W. on August 18, 2004, 02:54:58 PM
Thank you, Lisa.

I've often wondered about that situation. As a history professor, of course he would have an interest in someone with a strong case for being the Grand Duchess Anastasia. And it appears that they did share a devoted relationship. The unusual elements, though--he being so much younger, she exhibiting some difficult if not downright strange behaviors--and then, as time went on, their eccentric lifestyle . . . The latter, of course, happens to a lot of people as they age and are less able to care for themselves. But supposedly Manahan had a great deal of money, and I wonder why he didn't employ people to, at the very least, keep things tidy.

It all did end rather badly, with their three day evasion from the police and Anna's rehospitalization a few months before she died. Whoever she was, it was a tragedy of its kind. I hope the remainder of Manahan's  life went well.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2004, 03:55:54 PM
Evasions by police? Why? What did they do?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2004, 08:50:18 PM
Good to see another VA person! There are at least 3 of us here! I always wanted to find her house, too.

So she was committed and he broke her out and they were on the run, oh dear. What a story!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 18, 2004, 09:30:54 PM
Quote
Good to see another VA person! There are at least 3 of us here! I always wanted to find her house, too.



Hello Annie,

Her house was in University circle 35. By the way, i´ve heard that Chalottesville is one of the most elegant towns in Virgina, is it true?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 18, 2004, 09:36:18 PM
Quote

Hello Annie,

Her house was in University circle 35. By the way, i´ve heard that Chalottesville is one of the most elegant towns in Virgina, is it true?


Thanks, do you know where the farm is?

I guess Charlottesville is kind of elegant, some old parts of Richmond are too. But for pure mountain beauty I think Harrisonburg beats Charlottesville for the views.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Antonio_P.Caballer on August 18, 2004, 09:48:48 PM
The farm??? I don´t remember now. I had even forgot they had a farm :) . Well, if i find out where did it was i´ll tell you.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Dashkova on August 19, 2004, 01:07:03 AM
Quote
John was well regarded in his community prior to "Anastasia" coming into his life.

After her death, his behavior became more and more bizarre. I believe he remarried and died in the 1990's. Sorry, this is from memory and am away from my books.


Well regarded, but still considered a bit odd. Rested on his family laurels a lot, but we tend to do that in Virginia.  Manahan would like to have remarried -- a woman who was a true opportunist (wound up getting him to put his house in her name) and I'm not sure, but I think she wound up with his power of attorney as well.  He died alone and from what I've heard, pretty sad and miserable.

His would-be girlfriend had the house remodeled and lived there for some time. The neighbors *hated* her, for obvious reasons.  However, they were also not so thrilled with Anna Anderson, and most people I know in the area and region were not convinced of her claim whatsoever.

Not sure if the "girlfriend" (Althea Hurt) still lives there in the house or not, but she is still a practicing attorney (and married as well).  According to a friend of mine who recently had her do some legal work; her fees are high but she got good results.

Dashkova,
Writing just outside Charlottesville
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Sunny on August 19, 2004, 06:33:21 AM
Antonio, thanks for the address. Charlottesville was recently voted the number one city in America...A friend's take on that was, "Oh no, now people will start moving here in droves".

Sunny
writing from just outside of Charlottesville  ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Sunny on August 19, 2004, 06:37:55 AM
p.s. My friend moved here from Tibet, so the comment was particularly "cute".

Sunny
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 19, 2004, 07:59:08 AM
Quote

I believe someone told me they had a farm in Scottesville, which is only about 20 minutes down the road from Charlottesville. And yes, Charlottesville is very, very nice. One magazine voted it in the top ten best small to midsize cities in America. And I agree with you Annie that the mountain view in Harrisonburg is BEAUTIUL. It's kind of frightening driving over them, though. I thought I would be sick when I drove to visit friends at JMU last year.


Thank you :) Where are you coming from to go to JMU? If you take I-81, which has no twisty mountains, and get off at the Port Republic Road exit you will be literally at the gates of JMU. :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Dashkova on August 19, 2004, 08:32:17 AM
Quote

Thank you :) Where are you coming from to go to JMU? If you take I-81, which has no twisty mountains, and get off at the Port Republic Road exit you will be literally at the gates of JMU. :)


Just my opinion, mind you, but also voice of experience:
No twisty mountains, but plenty of twists, all at interstate speeds. Lots of trucks but truck drivers still try to avoid it.  Locally known as something of a death trap.  The road has no business being an interstate.  Last time I spent much time on 81 (going to Pennsylvania) I swore I'd never do it again, and I am not a timid driver (and have driven all over the world).  If you're careful, it's doable, but I personally go out of my way to take another path.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 19, 2004, 10:03:27 AM
Quote

Annie: I took I-64 West from Richmond and eventually turned onto I-81. It was on 64 where I drove over Aspine Mountain (I believe that is the name) and nearly fainted. It is a very pretty view, epecially in autumn, but one very long drop as well!

.


I think that's Afton mountain, that is pretty high up. I thought you had been on the really twisty mountains in US 33. Those can be scary when you have the twists and the drops!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Janet_W. on August 24, 2004, 03:56:24 PM
Dashkova, I'm just catching up with this thread, and thank you very much for the additional information re: John Manahan during his post-Anastasia years.

It is heartbreaking to learn what happens to people as they age and opportunists congregate. Sometimes it is the family itself, other times a so-called "girlfriend" or "wife," etc.  I can think of a number of older people--people I've known personally, as well as famous individuals--who've had this happen to them, and am grateful when those who are aging and no longer think clearly are cared for by people who are there not for what they can carpetbag, but simply because they respect the person and want to safeguard them from vultures.

From what I've read and seen (via a few documentaries), John Manahan was an eccentric . . . but, he did have regard for Anna Anderson and was kind and attentive to her. I am sorry he was not treated the same way in his final days. If nothing else, I hope those who take advantage of the ill, the elderly, and all others who are helpless, will someday receive what I believe is referred to as "karma."
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on August 28, 2004, 11:59:20 AM
I just finished reading Kurth's book again, and the last chapter is so sad. The story of how they were hauled into court for the messy, smelly yard and house must have been so humiliating. Having had a relative who also had a similar situation, I feel for them very much, and unlike most people can totally understand the meaning of 'we haven't vacuumed in 6 years, now it's too late.' :(

Anna and John loved their animals very much and the stories of the teenagers shooting at the dogs was awful. I had no idea they drove around in a wretched old station wagon and were known all over VA. I am from VA, and she lived until I was 23 years old. I am very sorry I never tried to meet her, it might have been easier to find her than I'd thought.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: RomanovFan on October 15, 2004, 08:10:34 PM
I'm still a little 'ify' on wether or not to believe Anna Anderson was really the Grand Duchess Anastasia.  If you compare pics, they look identical, even when comparing a photo of young Anastasia and older Anna...and wasn't she supposed to have known family secrets that no one who DID NOT know the Royal family personally could have known?....maybe she wasn't Anastasia but another distant member of the family? just a thought....I don't know for sure.  ???
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on November 16, 2004, 12:59:21 PM
Have you checked Peter Kurth's book?  If anyone were to have that info, I imagine he would.  

Hope you find this.  Sounds fascinating....
D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on November 23, 2004, 05:08:54 PM
Quote
Thanks, I'll look for it!

But, here's the question...should an "Anastasia" claiment really have scars on her chest? The historical argument is that the bullets were bouncing off, the bayonets wouldn't pierce...so where would the scars come in?

Second, let's just say that a bayonet thrust, or more did make it through an opening in the "armor"....if it was a bayonet, shouldn't the scar be very small? Just enough for the tip of a bayonet to go through, leaving a mark no more than, what, 1/4 or 1/8 of an inch?
But if the bayonet went in and left a mark the full width of a bayonet....what then would be stopping the bayonet from going all the way through? ANd, if it did go all the way through, wouldn't Anastasia have bled out, and died?
So, if Anastasia did survive, and she did have scars, shouldn't the low number of bayonet marks be very very small?  


That makes sense, if the bullets bounced off she would have no shots to the chest. I believe that no one is going to bother to partially run someone through with a bayonet and leave small holes or even inch deep ones. Those murderers were not playing around. I don't think anyone set out to only partially bayonet someone with an inch or 2 of it, they'd have, sadly, run them through and several times. This also leads me to not believe anyone escaped.

There was a thread somewhere here where someone claimed they saw her the day after in the house across the street, and she had lower body injuries but not upper ones. There are a lot of different tales, all on this forum somewhere.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: ferngully on December 21, 2004, 11:28:49 AM
she was rumoured to have scars by bayonets if she was anastasia, but the people who didn't believe her said it was from the munitions factory she worked in
selina        xxxxxxxxxx
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Alice on December 21, 2004, 07:14:56 PM
So why weren't these scars ever photographed? They would've helped her case.

Because we can't see them, it's just hearsay.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: aligertz on January 03, 2005, 02:05:35 PM
is it just me but isnt anna anderson [in those younger pictures of her] a dead ringer for H.I.H Tatiana? and then in her old age she did look like what H.I.H Anastasia would have looked like as an old woman...does anyone else notice?go figure....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on January 03, 2005, 04:54:22 PM
Yes, the Tatiana resemblance is there. She did originally claim to be Tatiana (after someone at the asylum showed her a pic and asked if it was her) It wasn't until a visiting emigre' declared her too short to be Tatiana that she changed to Anastasia. I don't think she looked like Anastasia at any time, IMO anyway.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Michelle on January 03, 2005, 08:57:30 PM
aligertz--

I agree with you very much.  And once again, Annie has gotten her facts wrong.  AA did NOT "claim" to be Tatiana at first.  One of the inmates in Dalldorf asked her if she was Tatiana because the inmate thought she closely resembled her.  AA did not answer and never said she was Tatiana.  Only as a result of nagging and prodding from those who knew her in Dalldorf did she then "volunteer," I guess you could say, the information of who she was (Anastasia).  I'm sick of people getting that wrong and saying over and over again that "she first claimed to be Tatiana and then switched to Anastasia." >:(

On another note, I've seen a remarkable picture of Anastasia from during her imprisonment (I'm thinking at Tsarskoe Selo) where she was posing with Nicholas and some guards I think and she looks exactly like a picture taken of AA.  I'll try to find the AA pic I'm talking about and I'll hopefully get to post it.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Lanie on January 03, 2005, 11:34:26 PM
Annie's not exactly wrong, Michelle ma belle. :)  From what I understand AA kept commenting about how much she looked like one of the tsar's daughters, blah blah, from photos of them in magazines and didn't seem to care one way or the other who said she was whom.  So an inmate said she looked like Tatiana, she never refuted this, and only started saying she was Anastasia after she was told she was too short to be Tatiana.

'Course, I don't think AA looks anything like AN, or TN, or any of the girls...at all.  It seems that the resemblance looks stronger for lack of a better word due to lighting.  People look differently in different lighting, their features look slightly different, etcetera--and people looking hard enough could surely see some of AN's features, I think due to the desperate need of people WANTING someone to have survived rather than just recognizing the obvious.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Alice on January 04, 2005, 07:52:07 AM
I think I've seen one photo of her where I thought, "OK, she could pass for Tatiana". Other than that, no.

Further to what Lanie is saying about lighting, let's also remember that we have only b & w photographs to go by - and the grey scale does not have the detail (because of the limited spectrum) that colour photographs have.

I think with colour photographs, the difference between the two women would be enhanced.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Michelle on January 04, 2005, 08:32:51 AM
Oh Lanie, Lanie, dearest.  ;D  I don't recall ANY of what you said AA did in anything I've read except in people's posts who are of the "anti" view, for lack of a better word.  But I think we'll have to agree to disagree. :) ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Michelle on January 04, 2005, 09:05:43 AM
Okay, guys.  Here's the picture of Anastasia, and then the link to the page with Anna Anderson's pic.  Go down to the fifth set of pictures and it's the one in the middle.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/LanieD/an1917_3.jpg)

http://www.peterkurth.com/ANNA-ANASTASIA%20NOTES%20ON%20FRANZISKA%20SCHANZKOWSKA>htm


Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on January 04, 2005, 09:18:07 AM
Well, Michelle, there is a marked similarity between the photos.  The quality on the AN one is a bit fuzzy though, so it is hard to tell for sure.  I really would like to know who AA really was because she had a similarity to members of the IF, yet wasn't related.....Of course, as has been mentioned, that resemblance might not exist as strongly were we to have color pictures.  

Denise
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Dandywell on January 04, 2005, 08:41:25 PM
There is a possibility that she got scars from the bayonets, even if they didn't pierce her. They were definately hard strikes, which could have caused cuts because of the gems. Also, they could have broken ribs, which, though this is gross, could have protruded, causing scars. I find it unlikely that she would have escaped the Bolsheviks, but it is not impossibe that she could have been scarred by the bayonets.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on January 06, 2005, 07:34:40 PM
Quote
Jeremy,

I think I remember Penny Wilson talking about this on one of the AA threads. Maybe you can contact Penny directly and see if she can give you this info or tell you where to find it...


Penny reported to us that the records show that FS didn't recieve any wounds from the blast even though another person present did die from the wounds from the grenade's explosion.

I think it was on one of the locked down threads.  When I find it I'll post it.  Unless someone finds it before I do.

AGRBear

PS
Quote

Except... Franziska Schanzkowska was not  injured in the accident at the munitions factory.  Her medical records are clear on this point.




Also found this in AA FS Part 2:  quote, in part,  of Penny Wilson's:
 
<<Elisabeth, Greg and I have been to Pozen and other locations both Polish and German associated with FS.  They are not inaccessible; it only takes a historian or two with an interest in doing field work.  We have, through our own research efforts, been in contact with (a) members of the Schanzkowski family, (b) archives governmental, judicial and personal concerning FS and (c) have amassed a large-ish collection of documents and photographs concerning FS.
 
This research has been conducted by us, at our own expense in order to form a portion of our nascent project investigating the phenomenon of claimants/pretenders in various historical situations.  
 
We will not be discussing the entirety of our research here; not unreasonably, we'll  be saving that for the book.  But it isn't necessary to go beyond what is already known of the Franziska Schanzkowska story to reasonably show that she could not have been Fraulein Unbekannt.  IB has done an admirable job of attempting to lead a discussion on just this topic, and I understand fully his frustration at the end, because a very few of you people keep repeating as gospel truth items of gossip that have alreedy been proven false.  This is what YOU do in order to avoid hurting YOUR case. >>


 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: stepan on January 07, 2005, 01:08:59 PM
Grand duchess Olga Aexandrovna said this to her biographer Ian Vorres : " For instance ,she had a scar on one of her fingers and she kept telling everybody that it had been crushed because of a footman shutting the door of a landau too quickly. And at once I remebered the real incident. It was Marie ,her elder sister who got her hand hurt rather badly, and it did not happen in a carriage but on board the imperial train. Obviously someone, having heard something of the incident, had passed a garbled version of it to Mrs Anderson."

And further on " She did in fact admit that a scar, allegedly resulting from the blows on her head at Ekaterinburg, had been caused by her tubercular condition. I felt really sorry for the woman by the time I left her."

I really don´t know if a tubercular condition can cause scars like the ones Anna Anderson had but it´s worth mentioning  what Olga said. Perhaps someone here with such knowledge in medicine can answer it?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Alice on January 08, 2005, 05:19:06 AM
I want to see AA's scars. Otherwise it's all hearsay. I'm assuming there's no photographs?  ::)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Malenkaya on January 08, 2005, 05:57:19 PM
Quote
I want to see AA's scars. Otherwise it's all hearsay. I'm assuming there's no photographs?  ::)


The scars were documented in reports by doctors when she was first admitted to Daldorf.  The reports stated her body was covered with "many lacerations."  This was way before she, or anyone, claimed she was Anastasia.  It was a simple exam that was probably quite routine.  The doctors certainly had no ulterior motives, so I don't think the existance of the scars have actually ever come into question.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on January 09, 2005, 05:55:24 PM
Those who think Anna Anderson was FS claim the scars were from a grenade explosion in the factor in which she worked and not from bayonets.

Penny Wilson claims FS did not suffer any wounds from the explosion.  

AND, when the police asked the family of FS if FS had any scars which would help identify her body,  the family said she didn't have any.

The scars of AA mentioned by the doctor in the asylum were old scars,  or, so I have been lead to believe.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Dandywell on January 09, 2005, 05:57:31 PM
The scars could have come from anywhere. To me, they prove nothing.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on January 09, 2005, 06:21:50 PM
Even the scar on the AA's finger proves nothing.

Each of my kids managed to get at least one finger caught in a door at different times in their life.  That only happens once and a person learns....  I waited until I was an adult and slammed my own three fingers in a car door.

I doubt sibblings or even parents know about all the scars on their children.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Ivana_Bernardovna on January 17, 2005, 07:18:19 PM
To establish my credentials, I majored in history at a top-tier university and worked for one of the best state historical societies in the US.

I personally do not trust the DNA results on Anna Anderson.  The samples were mishandled by the UVa hospital and the ownership was in legal dispute by various special interest groups for many years.

The DNA was tested in the UK.  The British Royal Family has many reasons why it would not acknowledge certain Romanov claimants.  Any British laboratory conscious of its licensing and funding would produce any "evidence" requested by the Queen.

As to Anna Anderson's scars, the following were among those recorded in the Berlin asylum records:

1)  A round scar where the neck meets the back
2)  A scar on the forehead
3)  A "star-shaped" scar on one of the patient's feet

Anastasia Nikolaievna, as a child, had a mole removed from the neck/back.  The mole would have been disfiguring when she wore court dress and ball gowns.

Anastasia Nikolaievna, unlike her older sisters, wore her hair in bangs.  This was to hide a scar on her forehead, the result of an early childhood fall.

WWI Russian bayonet blades were star-shaped.  The official Soviet records regarding the execution of the Imperial family state that the Grand Duchesses were bayoneted after bullets failed to penetrate their jewel-stuffed corsets.

There is a great deal of forensic and linguistic evidence recorded in the German courts to support Anna Anderson's claim that she was Anastasia Nikolaievna.

On her deathbed, Anastasia's favorite aunt and godmother, Grand Duchess Olga Aleksandrovna, recanted her statement that Anna Anderson was not her niece.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Merrique on January 17, 2005, 07:42:17 PM
Here we go with the "Queen" tampering with the DNA samples again. ::) :-/

I guess she had a alot to hide and protect from a dead woman.o0o0o maybe AA's corpse is gonna come back and steal that massive fortune of the Romanov's that the Queen is hoarding.

You just gotta love these far fetched theories,they are always good for a laugh. ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on January 17, 2005, 07:48:11 PM
Quote
There is a great deal of forensic and linguistic evidence recorded in the German courts to support Anna Anderson's claim that she was Anastasia Nikolaievna.

On her deathbed, Anastasia's favorite aunt and godmother, Grand Duchess Olga Aleksandrovna, recanted her statement that Anna Anderson was not her niece.


There is also the DNA evidence that shows she was not AN.  With all due respect to your educational background, let's see some proof of your allegations.  Without documented proof of your assertions, these things you mention can be written off as coincidence or wishful thinking.  Let's face it, it was a time of war.  Many people probably obtained scars under Lenin's civil war.  

Also, if Olga recanted her denial, please cite your source on this.  This is the first I've heard of it.  

Thanks, but until I can see your sources, I'm not the least bit convinced....

Denise
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on January 17, 2005, 07:49:45 PM
One last thing--if the German court was so impressed by the linguistic and forensic evidence, it was apparently not enough for them to rule in AA favor.... :o
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 17, 2005, 07:57:49 PM
Quote
I personally do not trust the DNA results on Anna Anderson.  The samples were mishandled by the UVa hospital and the ownership was in legal dispute by various special interest groups for many years.

The DNA was tested in the UK.  The British Royal Family has many reasons why it would not acknowledge certain Romanov claimants.  Any British laboratory conscious of its licensing and funding would produce any "evidence" requested by the Queen.

On her deathbed, Anastasia's favorite aunt and godmother, Grand Duchess Olga Aleksandrovna, recanted her statement that Anna Anderson was not her niece.


Your statements sound eerily familiar.... Is this your first time posting on this board?  ;)

Would you please cite the source where you obtained the info that Olga Alexandrovna recanted her statements about AA?

Thank you!  :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on January 17, 2005, 08:02:13 PM
Oy Vey. Once more we have "un named " alleged "experts" making un supported allegations. Please start citing EVIDENCE and less allegations.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Olga on January 18, 2005, 05:13:21 AM
Quote
To establish my credentials, I majored in history at a top-tier university and worked for one of the best state historical societies in the US.


That's nice.

Quote
There is a great deal of forensic and linguistic evidence recorded in the German courts to support Anna Anderson's claim that she was Anastasia Nikolaievna.


May we see it?

Quote
On her deathbed, Anastasia's favorite aunt and godmother, Grand Duchess Olga Aleksandrovna, recanted her statement that Anna Anderson was not her niece.


Uh huh. Yeah. Sure.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Alice on January 18, 2005, 06:27:59 AM
Quote
To establish my credentials, I majored in history at a top-tier university and worked for one of the best state historical societies in the US.


OK, I respect that you majored in History at a top-tier university, but you didn't major in Forensic Sciences. So your opinion is no more important  or accurate than anyone else's here (not trying to be disrespectful, but I get the feeling from your post that you're trying to justify your "allegations" by pointing out your educational background. I may, of course, be wrong.)

Quote
The samples were mishandled by the UVa hospital and the ownership was in legal dispute by various special interest groups for many years.


How were they mis-handled and where is this documented?

Quote
The DNA was tested in the UK.  The British Royal Family has many reasons why it would not acknowledge certain Romanov claimants.  Any British laboratory conscious of its licensing and funding would produce any "evidence" requested by the Queen.


"Any" British laboratory? Have you asked them all?

Quote
The reports stated her body was covered with "many lacerations."


"Lacerations" is an extremely broad term. If I go and climb a barb wire fence I'm sure that I, too, would have many lacerations.

As for the specific scars, I have no. 1 and 2, and I am certainly not AN. (A scar on my back from having a mole removed, and a scar on my forehead). So it proves nothing.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: rskkiya on January 18, 2005, 08:51:58 AM
Quote
To establish my credentials, I majored in history at a top-tier university and worked for one of the best state historical societies in the US.


I personally do not trust the DNA results on Anna Anderson.  The samples were mishandled by the UVa hospital and the ownership was in legal dispute by various special interest groups for many years.

The DNA was tested in the UK.  The British Royal Family has many reasons why it would not acknowledge certain Romanov claimants.  Any British laboratory conscious of its licensing and funding would produce any "evidence" requested by the Queen.


What university, please?

Concerning the "all controling powers" of the Queen over the research in forensic labs, your comments seem a bit farfetched and rather paranoid to me.

rskkiya
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Alice on January 18, 2005, 08:59:16 AM
Quote

What university, please?

Concerning the "all controling powers" of the Queen over the research in forensic labs, your comments seem a bit farfetched and rather paranoid to me.

rskkiya


Careful, rsk! Her Majesty has spies on this board (and every other) to delete posts like this and send you threatening PMs about your (perceived) anti-monarchist comments!

"They're onto us, Phil! Release the corgis!" *Bark* *Snarl*
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: rskkiya on January 18, 2005, 10:16:16 AM
Alice

Brilliant! LOL!

rskkiya
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on January 18, 2005, 11:03:10 AM
AGR, not to "jump on your words" but I must correct an incorrect statement you make. You say there is no "legal" proof re the samples being reliable. As I pointed out to you, in a Court of Law in the US, chain of custody in an accredited hospital lab is PRESUMED by the Court to be reliable unless and until it can be shown by a "preponderance of the evidence" that it is proven otherwise.  I gave you the list of questions and issues you MUST lay out before you can make this statement, and you have yet to do so.
FA
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 18, 2005, 11:15:03 AM
Bear, didn't you already accept on another thread that the hospital samples are reliable? The hospital chain of custody paper trail is the legal proof.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on January 18, 2005, 11:28:17 AM
Since Ivana_Bernardovna has just placed the first post on the forum,  don't you think it would have been nice if someone would have mentioned that the subject of the DNA tests has been discussed over on another thread?  And, then given the URL.

Give Ivana a chance to defend her opinion.

Ivana may not have the time to read this board everyday, so,  be patient.

If Ivana doesn't post, again,  then that's it.

What does it mean if Ivana doesn't offer a second post?   You've scared away another person who may have differences of opinion than the majority.  And that's  :'(

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Michelle on January 18, 2005, 11:31:53 AM
I totally agree, Bear.  Seems to me that she's not the one who's paranoid if you get my drift...........;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on January 18, 2005, 11:31:55 AM
Oh dear,  I accidently removed my post about the "donner", DNA  etc. etc.
Sorry
AGRBear

PS

I haven't had my honey so my brain isn't "thunking" right, yet.

I think I mentioned that the DNA testing  proved two things:
(1) that the "donner" was not related to Prince Philip  and (2) the "donner" was related to Karl Mauser, the grandson of Gertrude who was sister/half sister to FS

Admin. Forum said I mentioned about it being "legal".  I think that legality was broken when the samples were sent through the mail without all the proper legal rules followed.

Oh, and I said something about the "intestines" being left forgotten in a lab's storage room all those years.  If someone had wanted, tampering could have been done, no matter how upstanding a hospital was/is.

The "intestines" and "hair" can not be proven to be AA's, therefore, when I mention the DNA test,  I call the person who's intestines and hair was used as the "donner".

Why can't the "intestines" and "hair" be proven as AA's?  AA's body was cremated and no one can obtain DNA from ashes.

Are they probably AA's?  Probably but who knows for sure?

If I missed something,  I, again, apologize.  8)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on January 18, 2005, 11:37:22 AM
Quote
Since Ivana_Bernardovna has just placed the first post on the forum,  don't you think it would have been nice if someone would have mentioned that the subject of the DNA tests has been discussed over on another thread?  And, then given the URL.

Give Ivana a chance to defend her opinion.

Ivana may not have the time to read this board everyday, so,  be patient.

If Ivana doesn't post, again,  then that's it.

What does it mean if Ivana doesn't offer a second post?   You've scared away another person who may have differences of opinion than the majority.  And that's  :'(

AGRBear


I agree that someone should have referred her to a link to the DNA discussions, but I honestly believe that Ivana, having cited her "credentials" as a scholar, should be aware that you should back up your statements.  Instead, she stated things in deliberate contrast to many postings on this board and hasn't come back.  I know that for myself, I read and lurked on the board for many weeks before I got the gumption to register and start posting.  

I did not ask her to cite sources to be confrontational and "scare away the newbie."  I asked for sources to further an academic discussion on points she brought up.  It may be that she has not responded because: 1. there are no sources to cite; or 2. she has a life and hasn't checked back  ;)

At any rate, Ivana, if you are out there, please don't let anyone scare you away....

Denise
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on January 18, 2005, 12:06:59 PM
Quote


What does it mean if Ivana doesn't offer a second post?   You've scared away another person who may have differences of opinion than the majority.  And that's  :'(
 
Bear, judging by her post and her academic background, Ivana didn't strike me as an easily-scared-off type of gal who will go home and cry in her soup just because someone challenged her. In academia, we are all very used to these types of challenges, aren't we, Ivana?

But you are right, Bear, we should give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Ivana Bernardovna, if you are reading this, many apologies for too many challenges too soon and for asking too many questions of you. Please come back and post again!  :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on January 18, 2005, 12:39:00 PM
Back to the scars and I'll go find the URL for the DNA posts.

AGRBear

Here's One URL: http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102890975;start=0#0

There was other discussions that were in depth.  Since everything has been moved around and changes always confuse old bears, maybe, someone else recalls the other threads about DNA....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Candice on January 18, 2005, 03:32:49 PM
Compare Anastasia's stance with her sisters. I have noted that  Anastasia never stands straight. Her hip is at a slight angle. Ref. The Lost World of Nicholas and Alexandra by Peter Kurth (pg. 159). This shows that she must have had something wrong with her hip and leg. Could she have hurt herself while in captivity or did it happen before her ordeal?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 05:16:05 PM
I've never herd of that Candice!

Ok i just have something to say: I know many people don't belive that AA was realy AN and I know i didn't until today when i came upon a wedsite about AA. It said she was the same height, hair color, eye color, ears, scars, knowledge (languages, about the family, piano etc.) her handwriting also matched Anastasia's and she also had Hallux Valgus the same foot disorder as Anastasia! Also in many pictures the resemblence was incredable!

So all of that convinced me that AA probably was AN! But i could be wrong!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on February 09, 2005, 05:22:10 PM
Quote
I've never herd of that Candice!

so all of that convinced me that AA probably was AN! But i could be wrong!


EXCEPT, the mtDNA which proved beyond a doubt she can not have BEEN AN. Don't forget that "little" detail.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 09, 2005, 05:22:31 PM
All you anti-AA, please be gentle with our young student.

AGRBear

PS Forum Admin. is talking about DNA which is discussed over on the DNA thread.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 05:48:43 PM
AGRBear thanx!

But DNA test aren't always correct, i think! I'm not too sure, but no one knows the truth, It could be that AA was AN and that the DNA was wrong!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 06:00:36 PM
Quote
AGRBear thanx!

But DNA test aren't always correct, i think! I'm not too sure, but no one knows the truth, It could be that AA was AN and that the DNA was wrong!


No AlexeiLVR--these are correct.  They did a type of DNA testing that would show the mother-child connection.  It is called mitochondrial DNA and is only passed from Mother to child.  The body of the Tsarina had a specific type of DNA that is from the line of Queen Victoria.  Alix's mother Alice was Queen Victoria's daughter.  THe three young women found in the grave with Alix had a matching DNA sequence to Alix.  

Anna Anderson did not have this matching mtDNA.  Her mtDNA matched a Polish family of a woman named Franziska Schanzkowska.  

If you need anyone to explain more about DNA, you can post her or send me a message and I'll try to help!  :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 07:16:00 PM
O ok i understand Denise thanx for the explanation! ;D

So AA was actualy Franziska Schanzkowska?

I've read that people that knew Franziska and met Anna Anderson, said that AA wasn't FS! And that FS was actualy German not polish (i'm not sure about the german part)

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 07:26:16 PM
Quote
O ok i understand Denise thanx for the explanation! ;D

So AA was actualy Franziska Schanzkowska?



No, she shares a maternal relative with her.  Like if a woman had 8 daughters, and all those women had all daughters.  All the grand-daughters would share their grandmother's mtDNA.  That is all we know about AA--that she shared the same mtDNA as FS.  But not the same as Alexandra.

Quote
O ok i understand Denise thanx for the explanation! ;D

I've read that people that knew Franziska and met Anna Anderson, said that AA wasn't FS! And that FS was actualy German not polish (i'm not sure about the german part)



Yes, FS brother Felix met her in 1927, and in 1938 2 brothers and 2 sisters met her.  Although Felix initially though AA was Franziska, he spent an afternoon with her and realized she wasn't.  One of her sisters also thought it was Franziska but never signed anything saying AA was FS.  

And it was a Polish family.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 07:34:42 PM
OOO wow i'm sure learning ALOT of new stuff here! lol! ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 09, 2005, 07:47:46 PM
Quote
OOO wow i'm sure learning ALOT of new stuff here! lol! ;D


You are most welcome!!  :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on February 09, 2005, 09:14:42 PM
Quote
OOO wow i'm sure learning ALOT of new stuff here! lol! ;D



Then this forum is a sucess :D
I also learn something new here every day.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AlexeiLVR on February 09, 2005, 09:20:47 PM
This site is awsome! I told my mom I wanted to become a historian when i grow up and try to solve the Romanov mysterie! but then she said that it doen't pay enough, and that I first need to make my own buisness and then make researching about the Romanovs my hobbie!

But lets get back to the subject! ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 09:09:51 PM
Let's use this thread to discuss her story of her alleged 'rescue' and life before jumping into the canal.

She claims she was rescued by Alexander Tchiakovsky, but as we've discussed in other threads, there is no evidence he existed. We have also discussed how the name was probably invented, either because of its popularity, or its closeness to Polish names she knew, if she was FS.

My son and I were discussing her 'journey' tonight, and how unlikely it was she'd have survived the trip from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest by cart, off the beaten path. She would have been horribly injured and the chances of her living with no medical care for that long are rare. Add to this that by some accounts she'd have been pregnant, I can't believe the baby would have survived even if she did.

We did a map check to see just how far it was, and the distance from Ekaterinburg to Romania was about 2,800 miles!  :o  

That's almost as far as it is from Washington, DC, to LA! Consider too that there are various types of terrain, mountains, swamps, rivers, plains, more mountains in Romania! All this time staying off the beaten path to avoid the armies, all with hardly any food and no medicine or bandages. This alone is so unrealistic.

I don't want to make anyone angry, but would someone please explain how this was possible? Imagine how long this trip by cart would have taken under the best conditions, with healthy people and good weather. They'd never have made Moscow by winter! Can someone do the math as to how many miles they'd have had to cover each day and how long it would have taken them to reach Romania?

These are things I wanted to bring up, but any posts on any aspect of AA's story and how they do or do not add up are welcome for discussion!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 09:46:37 PM
So are we discussing just how improbable in general her story is, WITHOUT discussing it in terms of FS?  Just want to get the guidelines clear before I dig out the books!  ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 10, 2005, 09:51:24 PM
This is about Anna's story, but if you want to bring FS connections into it that's okay!  :D  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 10, 2005, 11:11:41 PM
Here's a relevant post from the Franziska's Baby thread.  It seems that AA was telling the truth that she had given birth, so that is a start on what wasn't made up....


Quote
Hey everyone- about the Doctor's visit- A close friend of Jack and Anastasia Manahan (AA) told me that he went to Germany (in the 1970's) on Jack's bequest to find information regarding his wife's claim to be Anastasia.  He met with Baron Ulrich von Genianth who had been in charge of AA's finances when she lived in the black forest.  He was the one who took her to see a physician who (probably in the 1950's) examined AA and said conclusively that she had bore a child.  

Hope that helps

Tim

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 06:11:59 AM
Okay- she had a baby. Now let's get back to that nearly 3,000 mile (approx. 6000 km) cart ride and a person's realistic chances of making that trip in her alleged condition. Doesn't the distance and the time it would take to make the trip, along with the injuries, really make it all seem so unbelieveable? I think FS (if that is who AA was) did not realize the distance in miles when she made up the story :-/
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 11, 2005, 06:24:10 AM
I think, after hearing the geographic details, that the story is near impossible, especially given the physical condition.  Even if she were not pregnant at the time (unlikely, since she was still in extremely poor condition)
that trip sounds like it would have taken a very long time.  Plus with the time it would take to have a child, then leave with the brother, Serge, for Berlin.  All that travel supposedly took place in 18 months?  THe killings were July 17, 1918; she was pulled from the canal on FEb 17, 1920.  I don't think so!!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 06:36:06 AM
Exactly, Denise. It doesn't add up. When my son (he's 18 ) did the map work after I guessed at least 1000 miles and he got 2820, he told me he would figure a man pulling a cart through such conditions (back roads, terrain, mud, etc.) with an injured girl in back (take it easy!) could not possibly have covered more than 2 or 3 miles per day. Even if it were twice that, how long would this trip have taken? The way I figure, at 3 miles per day, it would have taken 940 days! Even if they did it in half the time (unlikely) that's still 470 days, which is almost the entire 18 months. On top of this, the chances for her survival- baby or not- were very slim with no medical care or even food! This story is a huge hole in the AA case, and even I never realized just how much until now.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: chintz22 on February 11, 2005, 07:49:10 AM
Hi All,

This is an intriguing topic.  First let me say I have no opinions on the Anna Anderson/FS story either way, my thoughts are just on the question of travel time.

The first thing I thought of when reading this question was the emigration of people in the American West.  I did a little web research on how long it took people to complete travel on the Oregon Trail (2040 miles).  This unpaved route entailed going through mountain ranges, deserts, and fording rivers in wagons often carrying pregnant women.  Many emigrants walked the entire trip from Missouri to Oregon or California and there were incidences of attack by Native Americans on the way.  

According to my findings, emigrants needed at least four months to make the trip (17 miles per day). Emigrants who finished the trip in five months were thought to have made good time (13.6 miles per day). Stragglers who needed six or seven months (9.7 miles per day) to reach Oregon risked running into winter weather in the mountains.

At these rates, to go 2820 miles would take between 166-291 days, or roughly 5.5 months (Dec 1918)-9.7 months (April 1919).  Either way that would put her into Bucharest at the latest in the first quarter of 1919.  That works out so that she could have had a child in Bucharest if she was pregnant in mid-late 1918.  

Berlin is 1730 km or 1075 miles from Bucharest.  I can’t remember how she said she traveled to Berlin and I don’t have my books with me right now.  If she went by cart it would take between 64-111 days or approx 2 months-3.5 months which means she would have had to leave Bucharest around January-February 1920 to get to Berlin using that mode of transport.  

I think it is possible to make this trip, but what effect would the war and weather have had?  WWI was still going on during this time since the battle on the Eastern Front wasn’t brought to a close until December 1917.  I’m not sure if there was active fighting on their route (presumably they would have tried to avoid it) but how much would that have impacted the travel time?  Did her rescuers bring a supply of food for the journey or did they have to scavenge on the way?  

This scenario also supposes they were traveling in the winter, not the summer--how much snow would there have been and how much would that have affected the journey?  According to information on some WWI sites, the winter 1918/19 is mild, particularly in December.  So perhaps the travelers were lucky?

Very interesting topic, I’d love to know what other people think about it.

Best,

Sarah
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: chintz22 on February 11, 2005, 07:52:35 AM
Hi All,

Apologies, this should have read:

Berlin is 1730 km or 1075 miles from Bucharest.  I can’t remember how she said she traveled to Berlin and I don’t have my books with me right now.  If she went by cart it would take between 64-111 days or approx 2 months-3.5 months which means she would have had to leave Bucharest around October-November 1919 to get to Berlin by mid February 1920 using that mode of transport.  

Sorry!

Best,

Sarah
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: chintz22 on February 11, 2005, 07:53:56 AM
And the battle on the Eastern Front ended in 1918 not 1917--I can't type today!

Best,

Sarah
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 08:27:06 AM
Thanks chintz for all those numbers and comparisons! It's also good to see new faces in here, stick around :)

That was a good comparison, but A and A were worse off  than those settlers were. The pioneers had horses and oxen, this was allegedly one man pulling a cart by himself. While some pioneers walked beside the wagon, they also rode sometimes too. This was a human being weighed down by the cart, could he even physically do that? He could not pull as far or as fast as he could walk, and he may have suffered back injuries or muscle strains along the way. He'd have to rest a lot. I can't image a human being pulling a cart up a mountain in any weather, even a young healthy man.

The Oregon Trail was a mapped path, "Anastasia" and "Alexander" had to avoid real roads. They could not take the 'beaten path' because of fear of running into the army or other hostiles. Consider too that winter comes early to that region and stays late. They would have been unable to pull the cart in the snow and ice, or it would have at least taken a huge bite out of the time they'd be making. So we must take this into consideration they could not move much, if at all, during the long winter of 1918-1919. With the winter so harsh, they'd had to have stopped to find shelter. Where would they have found shelter for so long? They were clothed for summer and would have frozen to death out in the elements. There is no mention of this in her story.

The pioneers were prepared and well stocked with supplies before they set out. But not our heroes in this tale. They ahd to leave in a hurry in the middle of the night. What about food? How did they eat? Did they ever change her bloody clothes?

Worse of all is the issue of Anastasia being shot and bayoneted and bleeding badly. She was being rocked about on terrain and had no medical care. If she didn't die from her injuries and bleeding, there was the threat of infection. In the US Civil War, many soldiers died from infection from only one wound, she had many. And being pregnant? What are the chances a baby would not have been miscarried considering the jostling around, and the trauma suffered by the mother? BTW, how did she allegedly get pregnant? We have the rumors on Maria, but not Anastasia. I still see it all as higly unlikely.

On a side note, I've never seen anyone play the Oregon Trail computer game and live to make it, they always die of something :P ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 09:40:13 AM
Since most of you know my AGRBear means American-German-Russian-Bear,  I know a great deal about the journey between Germany and Russia.  I have found diaries, read books and heard family stories about how the Germans migr. to all corners of Russia from the late 1700s into about the 1850s.  Since  some of my ancestors walked from Alsace [north of Strassburg] to Russia to Odessa then on to Kherson over to  Tiflis in the Caucasus then to Palestine in the early 1800s, I can honestly say, yes, such a trip is possible.

In several of my books there are daily accounts of several people who traveled from Germany to Russia.  Some traveled  by land and the others  was from Ulm on boat on the Danube River into Russia and by wagon to Odessa area.

Here is a photographs of people traveling during the WWI in Russia:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/refugees2.jpg)

I think chintz22 has the correct idea on the math but I'll have to dig out some of my books, study the dates and then reverse them.

As you can see by the photo there was no need for GD Anastasia, IF she survived,  to be hidden once the Tschaikovskys [this is whom AA claimed] or whomeever her rescuers were had mingled with the masses.  Papers could be found on those who  died along the way or were stolen.  If that didn't work, money touched hands. [Bear's Note: Correction 10 Feb 2005]

I believe she menioned a cart to Bucherest, Rumania but I don't recall her mentioning any sort of method of travel to Berlin.  I suspsect it was by train.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 09:41:24 AM
Quote
 BTW, how did she allegedly get pregnant? We have the rumors on Maria, but not Anastasia.


If I remember correctly, the story was that AA initially got raped by Tchaikovsky- or something to that effect, got pregnant, then apparently grew fond of him and they got married.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 09:57:32 AM
In Joseph S. Height's book PARADISSE ON THE STEPPE,  he informs us that the process of travel was from sunrise to sundown and they traveled about 15-20 milies a day.

1,700 miles took four months.

Another, who was from Alsace left 17 May 1809 and reached Odessa on 24 Aug 1809.  I'm not sure that distance.

The transportation for the last two mention was cart pulled by beast and family walking next to the cart.....

The photos are  from WITH THE ARMIES OF THE TSAR, A NURSE AT THE RUSSIAN FRONT 1914-18 by Florence Farmbourough.

Here is another:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/migrDeadHorse1.jpg)


Someone will have to check the weather from July  to Nov./Dec. of 1918.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 10:37:15 AM
Bear's Note One Year Later, 14 Feb. 2006:  Because the posts of Penny and Poster Unknown have been removed,  my following post needs addtional information.  I will add it in brackets and in red so you will be well aware of my additions.

Rain in CA,  never.  Must be liquid sunshine  ;D

I was just going to ask about the birth:  Alexander born in Bucharest on 5 December 1918.  Go back 8 or 9 months..... May/April.... But, you beat me to it.  And, there are reports of Anastasia getting "puggy" while in the Impatiev House. [ As far as I know,  the "real" Anastasia was never pregnant in July of 1918 or at any time.   We [the other posters and I] were talking about  AA  claiming she was GD Anastasia.  AA said AA, who was claiming to be GD Anastasia,  was raped and became pregnant. Why?  Because AA was forced to produce a cover story  to cover up AA's  "real" pregnancy by Mr. Unknown which AA could not deny since the doctors at Dalldorf, while examining AA,  discovered AA had given birth to a child. ]

Now,  I do have something that buzzes around in my head.  I'll get back to you.

No,  I'll just throw it out and get nailed: [  Penny:  ]Do you think it possible that Yurovsky was the father of AA's Alexander?  For those of us who do not believe AA was GD Anastasia, we do not see any evidence that AA was ever in Russia, therefore, AA could never have been in Sibera or the Ipatiev House. Getting pregnant by Yurovsky would have been an impossible feat since Yurovsky, as far as I know,  was  never any farther west than Moscow in 1918

AGRBear

PSAdditions in red were made 14 Feb 2006, one year after I wrote this post.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mgmstl on February 11, 2005, 11:08:15 AM
Penny, since reading FOTR, and I was intrigued by what happened on the Rus, and had wondered about what happened to guard the safety of Olga, Tatiana & Anastasia while they remained at Tobolsk.  It seems that I remember that Olga was somewhat detached from her younger sisters, AFTER the Rus trip, and from that incident and Olga's behaviour towards her sisters, do you think that there was rape that night on the Rus?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 11:23:30 AM
I think the events which occured on the Rus was talked about in depth.  It was the first time I had heard these stories.  I don't recall the thread. Anyone else remember?

AGRBear  

PS  Couldn't find it using "search" with the words "Rus" or "rape" or "Tobolsk".  Someone must remember.  It was interesting and Michael probably would find it just as intersting.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 11:23:58 AM
Quote
Do you think it possible that Yurovsky was the father of Alexander?


Reality check here: it is also highly unlikely because AA never met Yurovsky since she was never at the Ipatiev house since she was not Anastasia. I think we are getting a little carried away again  ;) .  

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: chintz22 on February 11, 2005, 11:38:24 AM
Hi All,

Thanks Annie for the warm welcome.  I usually lurk but refrain from posting on this section but this topic drew me out.  I see this as a "could AA's story have been feasible" thread, not a discussion of the validity of her claim.

That said, I've often wondered if there wasn't a stream of refugees that this party could have blended into as well.  Unfortunately, there were so many displaced people at this time I would imagine it would be easy to become a face in the crowd.  I thought AGRBear's photos were very evocotive.  I've always assumed there was a horse or horses to pull the cart but I don't know if that was documented anywhere?  

As to the father of the child, I remember reading that she said the father was "a Bolshevik devil" (possibly Kurth's book?  I'd have to look).  This seems to me like it would fit best with the late Tobolsk/Rus scenario.  

Whether true or not one of the facinating things about AA's claim in my opinion is the level of detail.  It's fun to chat about it with all of you.

Best,

Sarah
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 11:45:24 AM
Quote

Reality check here: it is also highly unlikely because AA never met Yurovsky since she was never at the Ipatiev house since she was not Anastasia. I think we are getting a little carried away again  ;) .  



Please, let us have some slack, Helen.  ;D

Quote
..[in part]..

...  I usually lurk but refrain from posting on this section but this topic drew me out.  I see this as a "could AA's story have been feasible" thread, not a discussion of the validity of her claim.

That said, I've often wondered if there wasn't a stream of refugees that this party could have blended into as well.  Unfortunately, there were so many displaced people at this time I would imagine it would be easy to become a face in the crowd.  I thought AGRBear's photos were very evocotive.  I've always assumed there was a horse or horses to pull the cart but I don't know if that was documented anywhere?  

As to the father of the child, I remember reading that she said the father was "a Bolshevik devil" (possibly Kurth's book?  I'd have to look).  This seems to me like it would fit best with the late Tobolsk/Rus scenario.  

Whether true or not one of the facinating things about AA's claim in my opinion is the level of detail.  It's fun to chat about it with all of you.

Best,

Sarah


And, yes, welcome to the group.

Maybe, even  Helen and others, can  join us in our little adventure from Ekaterinburg to Bucherest to Berlin.....  Along the way you might learn a little history.

I think I read somewhere that Berlin had some 500,000 refugees from Russia by 1920.  They all managed to reach this city somehow, why not  someone whom we've gotten know as Anna Anderson?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 11:51:27 AM
Quote
Hi All,
I see this as a "could AA's story have been feasible" thread, not a discussion of the validity of her claim.
 


Would someone please clarify if this thread is about AA's story being feasible as herself (Anna Anderson - or whoever she was) or as Anastasia? If it is about it being feasible as Anastasia then I apologize for the "reality check" post. Thanks  :)  :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mgmstl on February 11, 2005, 11:51:34 AM
I have read several accounts of Olga not getting along with A.F. and being very conscious of her parents myopic course, could it be that she had a dire realiziation of what they were headed for, OR did what happened on the Rus that night, make her realize that they were bound for death in Siberia??

I have often wondered if Olga was raped that night, or if as the eldest sister, in order to protect the younger ones or Alexei, sacrificed herself.  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 12:00:15 PM
Quote

Would someone please clarify if this thread is about AA's story being feasible as herself (Anna Anderson - or whoever she was) or as Anastasia? If it is about it being feasible as Anastasia then I apologize for the "reality check" post. Thanks  :)  :D



If Anna's story of traveling by cart from Ekaterinburg to Bucherest is not fesible then it helps you prove AA couldn't be GD Anastasia.

Do you think this trip to be impossible?

Michael,  I'm still looking for the thread about the Rus events.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 12:07:30 PM
Quote
If Anna's story of traveling by cart from Ekaterinburg to Bucherest is not fesible then it helps you prove AA couldn't be GD Anastasia.
Do you think this trip to be impossible?


I have no idea! I don't know anything about trips like this... But if this is to help prove that she wasn't Anastasia, I don't think we really need to prove any more... I was just thinking that while AA wasn't Anastasia she may have based some of her stories on what actually happened to her - she may have made a similar trip in some manner to Roumania... and perhaps had a child in Roumania. Maybe there was some truth to her stories, except for the AN part... This could help us figure out whom she could have really been, providing she was not FS.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 12:15:41 PM
Quote
...what happened on the Rus that night, make her realize that they were bound for death in Siberia?? I have often wondered if Olga was raped that night


Michael, I think this is possible, but no one close to the family has ever refered to this, or even implied it in any of their memoirs, books, diaries, etc... I could be wrong about that, but I can't really think of anyone who did. But of course something like this was very possible on that boat.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on February 11, 2005, 12:29:09 PM
Quote
I think the events which occured on the Rus was talked about in depth.  It was the first time I had heard these stories.  I don't recall the thread. Anyone else remember?

AGRBear  

PS  Couldn't find it using "search" with the words "Rus" or "rape" or "Tobolsk".  Someone must remember.  It was interesting and Michael probably would find it just as intersting.


There is a thread here that mentions it:
http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102891385;start=23#23


Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 12:30:11 PM
Found it:

Final Chapter
Were the GD raped?:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=lastdays;action=display;num=1102891385;start=0#0

Just as a side note about traveling from Ekaterinburg to the west and west to east,  there is a little book called Eyewitness in Tobolsk by Olga Belisle which is based on a true story of  Mrs. Hulda, nee Hueber, Schmidt, who was a GR [German-Russian] and with her family was  forced from the Provence of Wolhenien eastward to Tobolsk than Ekaterinburg.

Although the author who was telling Hulda's story  may have made some incorect historical facts, but the story about Mrs. Hulda, nee Hueber, Schmidt is true.   She did visit inside the Impatiev House. She did recieve a gift from the Romanovs.  She did know Yurovsky, who helped her family return to their farm in the Wolhenien Provience.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 12:52:20 PM
I had never heard mention of a horse, just him pulling a cart. It's most likely the reason the stories of the journey are vague and without much detail is because they didn't really happen, though I'm sure her supporters would write that off to her being sick and delirious. Even if she didn't specifically mention hiding, they'd have to, it was a dangerous time in Russia and a GD and an AWOL Bolshevik would surley have been targets for death. Remember Sophie Buxoevedon's trip from Ekaterinburg to the coast took, what, 13 months? And they were mostly traveling in the open, though they too were in constant danger.

After I found out how impossible the trip was, especially considering the terrain and the harsh winter, I was wondering if anyone had any info I didn't have or any ideas on how this could have been realistically done. It makes for interesting discussion anyway.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 12:59:42 PM
Quote
I had never heard mention of a horse, just him pulling a cart.

If this was the case, then I think it would take a lot longer than 18 months! I can't imagine them being able to walk that fast while pulling a heavy cart... and I am sure they couldn't have been in such great shape since not much food would have been available.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 01:10:41 PM
If you read my posts,  these people were in carts while people walked along side.  Time was 4 months from Germany to Odessa or Odessa to Germany.  Or, if you just want milage, it was 1,700 milies.

I'm not sure what the distance from Ekaterinburg to Bucherest is....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 01:40:21 PM
Quote
I'm not sure what the distance from Ekaterinburg to Bucherest is....

AGRBear


That would be the 2,820 miles I was talking about.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 04:50:18 PM
Just eye balling the distance off the map I have, it's about 2,000 as the crow flies.

Add a month ....

There by Dec..

Remember, the wagon trains in the US were crossing new grounds but Europe's main or back roads had been around for a very long time and I doubt they had to take many back roads as some suggest.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 11, 2005, 04:55:30 PM
Quote
Just eye balling the distance off the map I have, it's about 2,000 as the crow flies.

Add a month ....

There by Dec..

Remember, the wagon trains in the US were crossing new grounds but Europe's main or back roads had been around for a very long time and I doubt they had to take many back roads as some suggest.

AGRBear


My son figured it up on a calculator from a map program and got 2,820. They didn't go 'as the crow flies' but as the cart turns;) They'd have a lot of miles and obstacles crows wouldn't have to worry about. They would not make it by winter, and remember winter comes early- and harsh- to that region. They'd have been snowed down in Nov. and at risk of freezing to death, not to mention being unable to travel in blizzards or deep snow or ice. And don't forget, this girl was allegedly bleeding and seriously injured with no medical care. That's much worse than just an average person!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 05:10:58 PM
I'm sure we can discover what the weather was like.  And, it depends on what route they took.  If they traveled south and down into  southern Ukraine, into Moldavia, over to Rumania then up to Bucharest then snow wouldn't have been a problem in Nov. or Dec..  

And, much of the area was at that time in German hands.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 05:39:57 PM
Quote
If they traveled south and down into  southern Ukraine, into Moldavia, over to Rumania then up to Bucharest then snow wouldn't have been a problem in Nov. or Dec..  


Bear, there can be snow in southern Ukraine and Moldavia during that time of year....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 11, 2005, 06:50:12 PM

I know the snow fall along the Black Sea isn't the same as the rest of Russia in the winter.  And, since I don't know what it was at that particular time,  I really can't debate one way or the other.

Below is a map of the area we are talking about.

The red arrow is pointing at Omsk.

From Odessa, the Black Sea Port on the left side in red, it's about 260 miles to Bucharest.  I'll have to get a better measurement.  


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/OmskOdessa7.jpg)

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 11, 2005, 06:54:20 PM
Quote
I know the snow fall along the Black Sea isn't the same as the rest of Russia in the winter.  


It's certainly not the same as Northern Russia but it can still be considerate. My family if from that region, Odessa to be exact, so I know about that :).  

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: jeremygaleaz on February 12, 2005, 09:08:15 PM
I'm not sure if this is the right thread to put this on, but I wanted to bring up a curious aspect of AA's story (What? ??? Just one? ???)

I've often wondered what triggered AA/FS's mental illness. I wasn't often awake in Psych class :-[
, but I seem to recall that a person inherited a tendancy toward schizophrenia, and not the actual disease. (Provided that's what she had, of course!) Whether or not you became schizophrenic depended on other factors (trauma, environment) in your life.  
Just for the sake of argument, let's accept that AA/FS was basing her story of the "Tchaikowskis" off of her own family, the Schankowskis. She tells us that she slept with a member of that family, and bore a child by him. This seems an odd type of relationship to have with a member of your own family.
So, in a round about way, is she telling us there was incest in the Schankowski family? Symptoms like those of AA have been recorded in victims of molestation> They become something greater in their own minds in order to rise above a situation.

So what does everyone else think? Of course, it's a terrible crime to accuse someone of, so I'm not accusing any member of the Schankowski family, as there is no proof. But, it would make sense for her to want to wipe her family from her mind after an event like this. Especially if she was told to surpress it. It would make sense.

To borrow from Bear, I will close the trapdoor now. I have to get to my  Mandarin study group!    
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 12, 2005, 09:21:46 PM
This would also have been a good one for the 'baby' thread ;) Well if that were true that would explain why there was no mention of the baby! It would have been very hush hush. Also inbred babies often die so that could have been the case too. It's just as valid as any other theory since we don't know!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 12, 2005, 10:02:33 PM
This is an interesting theory, Jeremy.  I will have to ponder this and get back on here tomorrow with some formulated ideas.....

D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 13, 2005, 10:48:40 PM
I had another thought to discount AA's story.  She states that one Alexander Tshaikovsky, guard, rescued Anastasia and smuggled her away.  

If we are to believe her, we need to take a look at the guards at Ipatiev house.  How many of these guards (who also have a brother working there) picked up and left Russia with their entire family following the shootings?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mgmstl on February 13, 2005, 11:59:39 PM
Well I too have always thought AA's story full of holes.
Perhaps some of her issues were caused from the emotional trauma triggered by her injuries in that factory explosion.  I have always wondered how different she was after that.  If "things" didn't change with her, or her mind was a bit off after that happened.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 09:18:35 AM
Jeremy, it is an interesting theory and very possible. It would explain a lot of things, certainly. But since we have no evidence of this, and are unlikely to get any, we will never know!  

Quote

Perhaps some of her issues were caused from the emotional trauma triggered by her injuries in that factory explosion.  I have always wondered how different she was after that.  If "things" didn't change with her, or her mind was a bit off after that happened.

A mental breakdown takes a while in coming, it usually is not caused by just one single event, but by a series of events that may transpire over many years. The factory explosion could have been the proverbial "last straw", perhaps not enough in itself to send someone over the edge, but certainly enough if this someone is already unstable due to various other things...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mgmstl on February 14, 2005, 10:27:12 AM
Perhaps it could have been the first in a series of events though that caused her to have a mental breakdown or become delusional, for the fantasy to become her reality, and then being AN became real for her.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 10:35:21 AM
I have a feeling, that if AA was indeed FS, that the explosion was not the first traumatic event in her life. FS had been, at the very least, unstable, since she was reportedly in and out of mental hospitals for years. People who are somewhat unstable can go on for a very long time being more or less "normal" until they lose it. Then they can recover and again be more or less "normal" until they lose it again. And so on. There was probably something going on before the explosion. One other thing that may have traumatized FS was the recent death of her fiance, she could have even caused the explosion on purpose by dropping the grenade because she may have been suicidal. This would be consistent with her later jumping off the bridge because she could still have been suicidal. There could have been other things that we don't know about that went on in FS's life as well, and will never know, most likely. The explosion could have been what finally made her snap completely... I honestly don't think we will ever know....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 12:20:48 PM
Quote

Oh, it is NOT "very possible."  This is the wildest speculation yet.  There is absolutely no evidence -- or even a suggestion of a whisper of evidence -- that anything as heinous as this went on in the Schanzkowsky family.  

Penny, things like incest are alot more common than most people realize and this is why I said that "it is very possible". Having said that, I also added
Quote
 But since we have no evidence of this, and are unlikely to get any, we will never know!  
which you neglected to acknowledge (perhaps you just missed it).

Helen
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 12:22:45 PM
Quote
... while getting your feathers all in a righteous uproar at the assertion that Nicholas was an anti-Semite, for which there is ample evidence.
There are very few people here who question the fact that Nicholas II was an anti-semite...   ???
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 14, 2005, 12:29:11 PM
Quote
There are very few people here who question the fact that Nicholas II was an anti-semite...   ???


But he changed his position, doesn't he deserve to have that known? I don't think it's fair to leave that part out, unless someone is going out of their way to make the guy look as bad as they possibly can. If you're going to tell it, tell the complete story of it!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 12:33:51 PM
Quote
If you're going to tell it, tell the complete story of it!


Yes, telling the whole story is generally a good idea, but doesn't seem to happen very often as most authors are biased at least somewhat, one way or the other. This is why it is a good idea for someone who wants to know as complete a story as possible, to read as many sources as possible, and this applies to all things in life, not just Nicholas's anti-semitism...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 12:52:04 PM
Quote

Helen, things like incest are also the worst kinds of charges to level against a family without evidence.  It doesn't matter if you qualify it with a "we'll never know the truth" sort of statement.  You have already said that it is "very possible."  The qualification does not withdraw the outrageous condemnation of this family.  

I hate to see the Schanzkowsky family treated like this.  There is no evidence for this sort of allegation, and so it simply should not be made.  These are people too, just like the Romanovs.


Penny, I don't understand why you have a problem with me on this issue. I am not the one who came up with this theory, I simply expressed an opinion as to whether this could be possible. I think that we are still allowed to express agreement or disagreement with something that someone states here. I also immediately stated that we have no evidence to any of this so we will never know. How is that making an allegation against the Schankowski's family? When did I ever make any allegations against anyone?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 01:11:42 PM
Quote

You didn't just say it was "possible" -- anything is "possible" under the old saying, and such a comment is a throw-away.  


Ok, I will take out the word "very" from my post, which will make it just "possible", just like anything is.  Would you still still consider that as me making "allegations" against the Schankowskis?

Frankly, sometimes I think you go a little too far, Penny, and if you continue, you will professionally alienate many people who would otherwise be open minded to your work.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 01:53:44 PM
Quote

A little too far in what?  
I think you know what I am talking about here - inappropriate personal attacks, just because we have a difference of opinion. You don't like it when it is done to you, well, I don't like it either.

That's all I am going to say as I would rather drop this type of an exchange. If you would like to continue, you can email me privately, as there is no need to discuss this in public.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 14, 2005, 02:09:29 PM
Let's get back to topic, ladies and gentlemen!!  :)


Quote
I have a feeling, that if AA was indeed FS, that the explosion was not the first traumatic event in her life. FS had been, at the very least, unstable, since she was reportedly in and out of mental hospitals for years.


But I was under the impression that her times in and out of the mental hospitals started after the explosion.  According to something I have read recently, (Massie 249) FS was given a room by the Wingenders as a charity case, as she was never right after the explosion.  

Can anyone verify this?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 02:12:03 PM
Quote
But I was under the impression that her times in and out of the mental hospitals started after the explosion.  According to something I have read recently, (Massie 249) FS was given a room by the Wingenders as a charity case, as she was never right after the explosion.  
quote]
This could be right, I just assumed that the explosion was very shortly before FS's dissapearance. What year did the explosion happen, was it a while before she went missing?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 14, 2005, 02:16:38 PM
If I am not mistaken, 1916.  Massie continues in 249 that in 1916 her fiance was killed on the Western Front, and soon afterward FS had the accident....
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 02:20:35 PM
Quote
If I am not mistaken, 1916.  Massie continues in 249 that in 1916 her fiance was killed on the Western Front, and soon afterward FS had the accident....


Oh ok, thanks. So this gives her about 4 years to be in and out of mental hospitals. So yes, it could be that it was after the explosion...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 14, 2005, 02:23:39 PM
Quote

Oh ok, thanks. So this gives her about 4 years to be in and out of mental hospitals. So yes, it could be that it was after the explosion...


That is what I thought.  Plus, I read that FS lived with Gertrude during the war, so it must have been after her accident that she moved out from living with her sister.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 04:44:51 PM
Quote

There was no personal attack on you, Helen.  I took issue with your inadvised analysis of the Schanzkowskys and the allegation of incest --


Penny, once again, it was not my analysis nor my allegation, and I have no idea why you keep insisting that it was. I only said that it was possible (as anything is) plus I am the one who said that there was no evidence to this and therefore we will never know, remember? And I crossed out the offensive word "very" from my "very possible" comment. I just don't understand what more do you want from me  ???  Please leave me alone.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: jeremygaleaz on February 14, 2005, 06:26:36 PM
Quote


As for Jeremy, he will have judge for himself the likelihood of being given an interview by the Schanzkowskys after making such an allegation against their ancestors.  He should not assume that his inadvisable remarks will never reach them.


Penny, I'm not going to respond to your other posts as anyone is free to go back and read what I have actually written, and I won't get into another argument on this thread as this is quite silly. I have no need to defend myself, as no "allegations" against the ancestors of the Schankowskys were made. I brought to everyones' attention a curious aspect of AA story, as many here are convinced of similarities between the Schanzkowskys and the "Tchaikowskys"

However, this quote from you is  a bit more serious. I emailed my father's attorney, and he's had a look at what you've just written here. If, in fact, I can trace any disruption in my research regarding the Schankowsky family  to you, then he will be contacting you.

If you wish to continue discussion of this in private, you are always free to email me.

Jeremy

 
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: jeremygaleaz on February 14, 2005, 06:27:53 PM
In other news....

I've got age progression photos of all four girls coming! (Plus the famous FS photo)

Stay tuned!

Jeremy
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: jolie on February 14, 2005, 06:30:27 PM
Jeremy:


Can't wait!!!   :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 14, 2005, 06:34:45 PM
Quote
In other news....

I've got age progression photos of all four girls coming! (Plus the famous FS photo)

Stay tuned!

Jeremy


You just love to taunt us!  ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 14, 2005, 06:48:10 PM
The incest story may be a big reach, but no more so than believing AA was not FS :-/ So if anything's possible, might as well allow in any theory!

Speaking of any theory, where's bear? ;)

Jeremy- yay!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 14, 2005, 06:49:51 PM
Quote

Speaking of any theory, where's bear? ;)


Good question.  Must have found a particularly deep hunny pot this weekend!  ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 14, 2005, 09:21:01 PM
Quote
I've got age progression photos of all four girls coming! (Plus the famous FS photo)
 


Jeremy, that's good news, can't wait to see them!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Malenkaya on February 14, 2005, 09:53:57 PM
Quote
I've got age progression photos of all four girls coming! (Plus the famous FS photo)


I am literally on the edge of my seat waiting to see this!  I've often wondered what they would have looked like later in life.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on February 15, 2005, 09:45:25 AM
Jeremy,

I will ask that threats of litigation against another user NOT be made in the public arena here, is that understood? I can't seed what Penny wrote as apparantly she has removed them. I can't be here 24/7.

Just so you know, I have heard from various sources that the Schankowski descendants in Europe tend to be very zealous in protecting the family name, and do keep an ear open about what people write about the family.










Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 15, 2005, 09:56:38 AM
Whether they like it or not, the Schanskowskas are a part of history. If they want their true story told with no inaccuracies, they should come forward and set the record straight and stop hiding. I understand everyone likes their privacy, but if there are questions the best thing to do is to answer them yourself!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mgmstl on February 15, 2005, 12:05:40 PM
And the hits just keep on coming 8) 8) 8)  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: BaronessSophie on February 15, 2005, 04:00:44 PM
Jeremy you did not say anything bad about the Schanzkowsky family. You even said there is no evidence of incest. Anyone can clearly see that. I look forward to your aged pictures as well!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 15, 2005, 04:22:27 PM
Quote
 Schankowski descendants in Europe tend to be very zealous in protecting the family name, and do keep an ear open about what people write about the family.


FA, as you can see, no one made any allegations against anyone. Both Jeremy and I clearly stated that there was no evidence of incest here, it was just general speculation - not an accusation. In fact, this doesn't even come close to the accusations people have made on this board, such as Queen Elizabeth II having a hand in switching the Anna Anderson intestine samples, or Peter Gill and other scientists planting DNA and fudging results. This issue was completely blown out of proportion.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 15, 2005, 04:30:35 PM
Quote

FA, as you can see, no one made any allegations against anyone. Both Jeremy and I clearly stated that there was no evidence of incest here, it was just general speculation - not an accusation. In fact, this doesn't even come close to the accusations people have made on this board, such as Queen Elizabeth II having a hand in switching the Anna Anderson intestine samples, or Peter Gill and other scientists planting DNA and fudging results. This issue was completely blown out of proportion.


I agree with Helen.  This situation has been completely blown out of proportion.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Georgiy on February 15, 2005, 04:32:25 PM
It's a pity people seem to take things very personally around here at times, and that questioning about ideas/theories/long-cherished beliefs etc are viewed as personal attacks. I do think there are very few, if any, on this board who would go out of their way to be vindictive, although posting without thinking does happen, but after-all, on a discussion group like this, it is impossible to speak with one another, and sometimes, therefore, much harder to fully understand what others are trying to say, due to the fact that we can not hear intonation or see facial expressions, which are just as much a part of communication as words.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 15, 2005, 04:35:38 PM
I agree with Sophie, Helen and Denise.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 15, 2005, 04:45:37 PM
Quote
It's a pity people seem to take things very personally around here at times, and that questioning about ideas/theories/long-cherished beliefs etc are viewed as personal attacks.


It's like someone else said on another thread, some people want to kill the messenger because they don't like the message. It's very sad that this has to be the case here.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 15, 2005, 04:56:03 PM
Quote

It's like someone else said on another thread, some people want to kill the messenger because they don't like the message. It's very sad that this has to be the case here.


Yes it is sad, particularly as it seems to be the adults that start this.  Most of our students are a delight and enjoy learning from one another.  That is what I enjoy about the board--the give and take of intellectual property.  

But in order to learn and grow, one MUST depersonalize the information.  Just because we make not like the message does not make it a personal attack.  As Georgiy said, we cannot see the person speaking or here the tone they intend for their message.  We need to start at the least offensive interpretation and work from there.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on February 15, 2005, 05:00:07 PM
Please re-read what I wrote. I said NOTHING about the propriety or inpropriety of Jeremy's statements about the family.  All I said was that the family has a history of zealously defending their name and privacy. I agree that this entire thread has become WAY blown out of proportion on alot of counts. It is sad that the youngsters in here play with each other far better than many adults.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: CuriousOne on February 16, 2005, 01:56:10 PM
Quote
....

Speaking of any theory, where's bear? ;)

....


I was told this morning that AGRBear went into emergency surgery last Sat. afternoon, and, is, now recovering and doing fine.

Curious One
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: chintz22 on February 16, 2005, 03:13:48 PM
Hi All--

Jeremy, where will you be posting the age progressed photos, in this thread or will you start a new one?

Thanks,

Sarah
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Abby on February 16, 2005, 03:55:05 PM
Quote

I was told this morning that AGRBear went into emergency surgery last Sat. afternoon, and, is, now recovering and doing fine.

Curious One



Oh no!!! poor bear! i will PM her with my wishes of recovery.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Valmont on February 16, 2005, 05:27:22 PM
So, curiousOne..... I can infer you know AgrBear's identity...Would you mind sharing?......
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 16, 2005, 05:30:50 PM
I emailed Bear just now, as I have an email address for her. I told her that we all hope she is ok and to get well soon and that we miss her on the boards! :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Georgiy on February 16, 2005, 07:49:22 PM
Good on you Helen! I too hope she will be OK.  :(
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: jeremygaleaz on February 16, 2005, 11:00:12 PM
Quote
Hi All--

Jeremy, where will you be posting the age progressed photos, in this thread or will you start a new one?

Thanks,

Sarah


It's up to the FA. When everything's ready I'll foreward them to him and he can decide what works best for the forum.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on February 17, 2005, 09:08:42 AM
CuriousOne,
PLEASE extend Bob's and my personal wishes for a speedy and safe recovery to Bear, and our hope to see her back here with her honeyjar soon!

Jeremy, that is fine with me, i'll look at the pics and decide the easiest way to put them up.

FA
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 17, 2005, 09:17:35 AM
Get well soon bear!

Thanks Jeremy and FA.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: CuriousOne on February 17, 2005, 11:16:22 AM
I have extended our get well wishes to bear. She said with the modern tech of using a lap top, she'll be back soon and said to say thanks to everyone's nice words and concern. And, remember, "Be respectful to each other." & as bear often tells us "Back to the topic."  :)

Quote

It's certainly not the same as Northern Russia but it can still be considerate. My family if from that region, Odessa to be exact, so I know about that :).  



In Nov. what is the average snow fall around Odessa?

I can't wait to see the pictures of the aging process!!!



Curious One
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 17, 2005, 08:03:39 PM
Quote
In Nov. what is the average snow fall around Odessa?


Maybe not in November, but definitely in December snow is very possible, even probable. But November would not be unheard of.The Odessa climate is nothing like the Crimea which is a lot warmer from what I understand, even though both are on the Black Sea, it is more like the Northeast in the US...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: chintz22 on February 18, 2005, 08:15:47 AM
Hi All,

Many thanks Jeremy and FA--can't wait to see the photos!

Also, add my wishes for Bear's speedy recovery.

Best,

Sarah
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 18, 2005, 10:18:08 AM
I want to thank everyone for sending me such nice words about having a speedy recovery.

Although I moved rather slowly,  I did reach my computer room this morning and started to read all my PMs.  I can't possibly answered them all today.  But,  I will.  I thank them and those who posted on the forum.

Thank you Curious One for letting everyone know about my surprise visit to the hospital last Sat..  

SOOOOOOOooooooo, what is this about Penny leaving???

I leave for a week and I discover we have another unhappy camper.

Not Good.

I'll have to go back and read the thread and I'll be back with my thoughts.

AGRBear :-/
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 18, 2005, 11:46:33 AM
Quote
I'm not sure if this is the right thread to put this on, but I wanted to bring up a curious aspect of AA's story (What? ??? Just one? ???)

I've often wondered what triggered AA/FS's mental illness. I wasn't often awake in Psych class :-[
, but I seem to recall that a person inherited a tendancy toward schizophrenia, and not the actual disease. (Provided that's what she had, of course!) Whether or not you became schizophrenic depended on other factors (trauma, environment) in your life.  
Just for the sake of argument, let's accept that AA/FS was basing her story of the "Tchaikowskis" off of her own family, the Schankowskis. She tells us that she slept with a member of that family, and bore a child by him. This seems an odd type of relationship to have with a member of your own family.
So, in a round about way, is she telling us there was incest in the Schankowski family? Symptoms like those of AA have been recorded in victims of molestation> They become something greater in their own minds in order to rise above a situation.

So what does everyone else think? Of course, it's a terrible crime to accuse someone of, so I'm not accusing any member of the Schankowski family, as there is no proof. But, it would make sense for her to want to wipe her family from her mind after an event like this. Especially if she was told to surpress it. It would make sense.

To borrow from Bear, I will close the trapdoor now. I have to get to my  Mandarin study group!    


It appears this remark about "incest" is the start of the situation.

I can just imagine what went through Penny's mind when she saw this "theory".  

I'm not sure how this popped into jermeny's head but hey,  I have all kinds of theories popping into my head all the time.  That said,  I assume Penny wasn't too please with this kind of "theory"  which isn't a very pleasant one.  And,  these kinds of  "theories" would turn off any FS family member if they saw them.  Since Penny is trying to locate and talk to the family, and, this kind of "theory" is presented then....  Well,  I don't suppose this would go over very well with the family members.   And, if this is a turn-off then the family won't answer questions....  Like a snowball rolling down a snowy hill.....  that ends up smashing into a tree at the bottom of the hill, kind of scenario.

So,  what do we have left?  A theory.  Nothing more and nothing less.

Let us all make that perfectly clear.  No one has any evidence of incest.  

As far as we know,  Anna Anderson and FS are two different people who somehow became linked during a trial in the 1960s, then, again, through DNA in the 1990s.

To some,  the DNA seem to prove that Anna Anderson and FS were one in the same.  But, that was putting the cart in front of the horse, so-to-speak.  What the DNA test shows is:  AA is related to Karl Maucher who's grandmother Gertrude was either sister or half sister to FS.  That is all the test can prove.

As for the remark about AA sleeping with other family members,  please,  you have to take yourself into another time period and a different way of living to view this accuately.  People in those days didn't do things the way we do them today.  A bed was a place everyone who could fit slept.  The adults and kids.  Family was family.  Sometimes a friend shared the bed where it was warm....  A bed was better than the floor, especially in autumn and winter when the nights grew cold.....  

Now,  I believe this thread was suppose to be about proving Anna Anderson's story.

Annie asked about the long trip from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest some 2,000 plus miles and if it was possible.

I thought it was.

I asked about the weather around Odessa in Nov. .  Helen replied that sometimes it snows but not always.... in Nov. .

The map I placed is far too small.  I'm going to make a larger one so I'll be back.

Please,  play nice while I'm away.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Elisabeth on February 18, 2005, 02:35:29 PM
I think it's bizarre that the issue of incest was ever raised in the case of Anna Anderson. There's nothing to indicate that she was a victim of incest, aside from a handful of symptoms that are indicative of a whole host of different psychiatric disorders. People have to understand, that (no offense intended) psychiatrists themselves half the time don't know what they're dealing with. If a patient doesn't present outright as overtly and obviously schizophrenic (and where on earth is the evidence that AA was ever schizophrenic??!!??) or manic-depressive, they're really in the dark most of the time. It's not unknown, in fact quite common, for patients to present with symptoms that overlap. Psychiatry is still in its infancy in terms of what we know about the human brain and its relation to nature vs. nurture. We can't start drawing conclusions in areas where even the professionals would (or should) be cautious about doing so, especially given our incredible lack of clear information about Anna Anderson's background.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 18, 2005, 03:44:28 PM
Odessa [red dot]
\
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/AGRBear/OmskOdessa7.jpg)


I'm trying to get this map bigger but for some reason "bucket" is fighting the size .....

Anyway,  this is a little larger.

I asked around about the weather which is west of Odessa and around the Black Sea, and, I'm told that Dec. can be cold but not necessarily with a lot of snow in certain years.

And, the roads between some of the villages along the Rumanian border and across the border were not well kept.  There were few bridges.  I guess this was to help keep the people in and out of Russia at that time.

I don't know about the trains.

Nor do I know exactly what was under the German army's control at that time.  I'm told they were in the area and didn't leave until after the Treaty was signed between Germany and Russia.  And, much of this area then ended up as being part of Rumania.  I don't think we need the exact dates.

And Elisabeth is right about mental illness.  There is so little understood about the subject at this time.  And trying to make some kind of diagnois about AA's  or FS's mental health is like trying to catch the wind with your hands.  


AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: jolie on February 19, 2005, 12:41:06 AM
NO ONE drew ANY conclusions ie) incest!   It was a "possibility" for her behavior.  

It amazes me that that of ALL the crazy theories thrown around on this board, that somehow THIS possibility is cause for a spanking.

If Penny left over this, it wasn't because of the theory, it was because posters didn't cave into her trantrums.  

Ya'll come up with the CRAZIEST tales and then act all HORRIFIED because a researcher didn't like what was said.  

Check the thread and see who caused the discord.    

Sheesh..........a mountain out of a molehill.  

So some people are doing research......does that have to stifle ideas???    

Bear, if you REALLY believe that there are boundaries for possibilities, then you wouldn't have anything to post!  

I'll probably be kicked off for saying this, but I see too much favoritism here among posters and those that suck up to "celebrities" whether they are credible or not.

I sometimes wonder if the reason some people get so upset is because THEY never considered a "possibility" that was discussed here..........or maybe the "possibility" came to close to the truth.    Or maybe it just doesn't "jive" with their own theory.

Helen and Jeremy behaved honorably.  They don't need to be chastised for throwing around a "maybe".  You all do it ALL THE TIME.

btw, Bear, I'm glad you are feeling better!  Take care and don't over-do!  I prayed for you this past week along with everyone else here.

Flame away.

jolie

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: IlyaBorisovich on February 19, 2005, 08:13:22 AM
There's always the possibility that Penny's departure was on the advice and/or instruction of either her publisher or her lawyer, as a result of her being threatened with litigation here.  Just a thought.

Ilya
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 19, 2005, 09:55:00 AM
The mtDNA is through the maternal line not the line of the father's.  So,  even if there was incest,  it doesn't help us understand how Karl Maucher's grandmother Gertrude and FS ended up with the same mtDNA as AA.

And,  you're right,  I do throw out theories of all kinds so I'd be the last one to stiffle someone else's theory.

As for Penny's posts,  I never saw them except for the bites and pieces on various posts.  So,  I can't comment anything else other than what I've posted above.

Besides,   I'm still stuck on Annie's first question about the trip from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest.  If AA was in Ekaterinburg in July of 1918 could she have traveled this distance by Dec. 8th which is the date given for the birth of little Alexander?

Oh, and would AA been using the O.S. or the N.S. calendar which changes the date some 12 days?

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 19, 2005, 09:58:34 AM
Quote

Besides,   I'm still stuck on Annie's first question about the trip from Ekaterinburg to Bucharest.  If AA was in Ekaterinburg in July of 1918 could she have traveled this distance by Dec. 8th which is the date given for the birth of little Alexander?


AGRBear



I just read in Kurth's book that the date of Dec 8, 1918 for the birth of the baby was invented by Baron von Kleist.  AA herself says the child was born in 1919.  So the date of the birth does not need to figure into our equation for the length of the trip.  

And Bear, glad to see you are back!  :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 19, 2005, 10:13:11 AM
Quote

I just read in Kurth's book that the date of Dec 8, 1918 for the birth of the baby was invented by Baron von Kleist.  AA herself says the child was born in 1919.  So the date of the birth does not need to figure into our equation for the length of the trip.  

And Bear, glad to see you are back!  :D


I'm glad it was von Kleist's invention because I was having a hard time with the date of 8 Dec..  So,  what was the reason for von Kleist to make up such a story?

And thanks for the niece words, because it is good to be back  ;D.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 19, 2005, 10:54:08 AM
Here is the info from page 34 in PK's "riddle":

Zinaida Tolstoy, nursing Anastasia in the summer of 1922, was the first to hear "The Story" or parts of it.  She reported the details as she received them to Baron von Kleist, who in turn drew up a number of protocols and invented for Anastasia a flowing, first person narrative that bore no resemblance to her actual speech but did introduce, in a guarded way, "a soldierwho had rescued [her]" from the general slaughter at Ekaterinburg.  This soldier, destined to cast a long shadowacross Anastasia's life, gave his name as Alexander Tschaikovsk.  With Tschaikovsky and his family--"his mother, Maria, his sister, Veronica, and his brother, Serge"--Anastasia traveled out of Russia to Bucharest.  There she remained until the beginning of 1920.  During the Rumanian sojourn--to be precise, on "December 5, 1918" she gave birth to Tschaikovsky's child, a boy, whom she called Alexis after her brother.  Shortly after that she was married to Tschaikovsky in a Catholic church in Bucharest.  No rings were exchanged and no papers signed.  In Bucharest the family had taken up residence with a "gardener" described as a relative of Alexander Tschaikovsky's mother.  Tschaikovsky was shot and killed on the streets of Bucharest at the end of 1919.  His young widow, leaving her son behind, then came "alone" to Berlin to seek out her mother's relations.  She was "at liberty for less than a week" before she fell--or had she been pushed?--into the Landwehr Canal.

Such was the fantastic gist of "The Story" as Baron von Kleist told it.  Anastasia's indignation knew no limit when she heard about the Baron's "lies."  Alexis! she exclaimed.  She had never called her child Alexis: "The boy is called like his father, Alexander."  And where had Baron von Kleist come up with the date of the child's birth?  Anastasia had no idea when the boy was born.  He would be "almost three" now, in 1922, that was all she knew. What did it matter?  She would never be able to recognize the child in any case.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 19, 2005, 05:07:12 PM
Jolie- I agree!

bear- welcome back! Yes I would love to do more exploring on my journey ideas!

Denise- thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: chintz22 on February 19, 2005, 06:19:35 PM
Hi All,

AGRBear, that's a good point about whether the calendar used is OS or NS.  I'm interested in the trip itself as well.  

Best,

Sarah
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mgmstl on February 19, 2005, 08:02:12 PM
Personally I don't think Penny was throwing tantrums, I think there are others on this thread who are not interested in a discussion, just their own opinion, and do what they can to disrupt the flow of ideas, and prove that in the end they are right, & sow discourse wherever possible.

This thread was about WHO could she possibly be if she was not FS.

I thought the entire matter of incest was insulting & degrading to any family, and to one who wants to stay as private as the Schanzkowska's obviously do, all they would have to do is get wind of this idea.  Also having to deal with a similar situation in genealogy, if you want to people to cooperate with you & your research the one thing not to do is to piss them off publicly, with inflammatory theories such as that.

Bear I for one am interested in hearing more about your theories.  
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 19, 2005, 10:41:38 PM
Quote
.

This thread was about WHO could she possibly be if she was not FS.


  


No, that was "so who WAS she, then?" this is "Anna Anderson's story" about whether or not her story was realistic.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 19, 2005, 10:58:06 PM
It seems that all threads about AA, no matter how different they start out, somehow end up as the same discussion  ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Mgmstl on February 19, 2005, 11:09:35 PM
Annie, PLEASE put me on ignore, I have no intention in getting into an argument over semantics with you or anything else.


Thanks!! :-X
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 20, 2005, 10:55:00 AM
Back to the topic, please.

Does anyone have any thoughts about AA having taken the route to the south?

Would there have been any major reasons which would have prevented this journey?

Anyone know where we can discover the weather stats for July to Dec 1918 for this southern route?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: stepan on February 20, 2005, 03:34:19 PM
A couple of years after AA appeared her supposed brother in law Sergei was looking for her. He went to Dallforf, Clara Peutert,The Schwabes but diden´t find her. If I remember correctly AA was staying with Inspector Grunberg at the time. So this man "Sergei" diden`t find her but conviniently disappeared never to be heard of again. So the story goes. Anyway this man left a letter to AA and said that her child was in an orphanage in Galath in Rumania. This supposed letter was never found either. I don´t believe much of this story. Research was being done in Rumania in the 20´s but they never found any trace of the Tchaikovskis or of a child. I personally think it was all made up. And if she was in Rumania why on earth diden´t she go to her close relative Queen Marie?  As GD Olga Alexandrovna said: It doesen´t make any sense! Queen Marie would have helped and understood. She was an openminded person and nothing was strange to her.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 20, 2005, 04:27:14 PM
Quote
A couple of years after AA appeared her supposed brother in law Sergei was looking for her. He went to Dallforf, Clara Peutert,The Schwabes but diden´t find her. If I remember correctly AA was staying with Inspector Grunberg at the time. So this man "Sergei" diden`t find her but conviniently disappeared never to be heard of again. So the story goes.


Interesting, thanks for posting. Do you know the source of this story?


Quote
Anyway this man left a letter to AA and said that her child was in an orphanage in Galath in Rumania. This supposed letter was never found either. I don´t believe much of this story. Research was being done in Rumania in the 20´s but they never found any trace of the Tchaikovskis or of a child. I personally think it was all made up. And if she was in Rumania why on earth diden´t she go to her close relative Queen Marie?  As GD Olga Alexandrovna said: It doesen´t make any sense! Queen Marie would have helped and understood. She was an openminded person and nothing was strange to her.


I agree with you, and Olga A.!

Another thing on this is, if they were real, wouldn't they have tried harder to find her? They knew she was Anastasia and what a gold mine for them! I know the husband was allegedly killed in Romania, but the brother or the rest of the family could have found her. It's also strange they never surfaced during the long and well publicized trial. All these factors lead me to believe even more none of them ever existed and AA was not AN.

I guess the fate of the child will always remain a mystery.



Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: stepan on February 21, 2005, 08:45:36 AM
The source for this story about her supposed brother in law seemed to come from Clara Peuthert.   Peter Kurth wrote about it among others. But this man left no trace but "disappeared" as he had done in Febuary 1920. That is according to AA! This man could have been anybody so nothing is proved.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 21, 2005, 10:26:17 PM
Quote
A couple of years after AA appeared her supposed brother in law Sergei was looking for her. He went to Dallforf, Clara Peutert,The Schwabes but diden´t find her. If I remember correctly AA was staying with Inspector Grunberg at the time. So this man "Sergei" diden`t find her but conviniently disappeared never to be heard of again. So the story goes. Anyway this man left a letter to AA and said that her child was in an orphanage in Galath in Rumania. This supposed letter was never found either. I don´t believe much of this story. Research was being done in Rumania in the 20´s but they never found any trace of the Tchaikovskis or of a child. I personally think it was all made up. And if she was in Rumania why on earth diden´t she go to her close relative Queen Marie?  As GD Olga Alexandrovna said: It doesen´t make any sense! Queen Marie would have helped and understood. She was an openminded person and nothing was strange to her.


I'm not sure to which family you are referring when you said: >>AA appeared her supposed brother in law Sergei was looking for her<<  Was this a  Alexander Tschaiksky's sister's husband?

Where was Queen Marie in 1919?   Because this is a good question as to why AA hadn't gone to see her.

Stephan also asked:  <<...this man left a letter to AA and said that her child was in an orphanage in Galath in Rumania<<.  Do you have  a source?

I do not know who was looking for the family and claimed no evidence was found.  I've seen this statement on other threads but no source.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Malenkaya on February 21, 2005, 11:36:13 PM
Quote

I'm not sure to which family you are referring when you said: >>AA appeared her supposed brother in law Sergei was looking for her<<  Was this a  Alexander Tschaiksky's sister's husband?


I believe the man in question was Serge, who was Alexander's brother.  That would make him AA's brother-in-law, according to "the story."  He is the man who traveled with her to Berlin and then disappeared.

This is the first time I've heard this part of the story.  I don't ever recall reading abut it in a book.  Does anyone have a source?

Anastasia
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 22, 2005, 01:26:13 AM
As has been discussed, Peter Kurth gives sources for most of the stories within the story of Anna Anderson. That's the book to consult.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 22, 2005, 06:03:00 AM
I asked the same question, what's the source. Stepan posted that it was Clara P.  who alleged that inicident took place.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Sian_Turner on February 22, 2005, 07:23:03 AM
The source is Peter Kurth.  It states that a man arrived at Nicholas von Schwabes having arrived at Clara's after being directed there by the Dalldorf Asylum.  On seeing a picture of AA he burst into tears and said he knew that lady and had travelled with her to Berlin.  On the back of the photo he scribbled some words which read (and I'm paraphrasing here as I don't carry the book around with me) something like Anastasia Nicolaevna ... Serge Ivanov(?) .... geb Petersburg 1904 - something like that (geb meaning born)  I've cross matched this with the list of guards given by Penny and Greg and there aren't any Ivanov's mentioned.  The photo with the inscription now forms part of hte Edward Fallows papers so it is real.  He also left a letter which von Schwabe (when quizzed by AA) said he had "lost" and which sent AA into a frenzy.

Oh and by the way, I hope everyone is proud of their work in causing Penny to leave the board - this last comment should be read loaded with sarcasm.  You've excelled yourselves this time.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 22, 2005, 07:35:50 AM
Quote
 .... geb Petersburg 1904 - something like that (geb meaning born)...  


In what language?

Quote
Oh and by the way, I hope everyone is proud of their work in causing Penny to leave the board - this last comment should be read loaded with sarcasm.  You've excelled yourselves this time.


Oh and by the way, would you please try to refrain from instigating any more discord on these threads by sarcastic comments like this. If you have any grievances, please start a new thread called "Grievances about the forum and its users", perhaps under the Discussion Forum section.  
This last comment is meant sincerely. Thank you.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Annie on February 22, 2005, 07:43:01 AM
Quote
Oh and by the way, I hope everyone is proud of their work in causing Penny to leave the board - this last comment should be read loaded with sarcasm.  You've excelled yourselves this time.


No one causes her to leave, she does it to herself. If she can't control her temper and rages and outbursts it's not our fault. Some have wanted to make me the scapegoat for the trouble, but I can't be blamed for the last 2 incidents since I wasn't even involved. She is the catalyst, be it with me or someone else. It's interesting to note that the board gets along fine and is generally peaceful otherwise.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Alice on February 22, 2005, 08:23:35 AM
Ehm . . . what we need here is a light-hearted joke, and then to get back on topic!

So here's the joke:

- My wife has gone to St.Petersburg.
- Is she Russian?
- No, she's taking her time.

And now, back to the topic! :D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 22, 2005, 09:27:18 AM
I'm sorry to hear that there are no regrets in either of these posts.

Quote
.....in part....

Oh and by the way, would you please try to refrain from instigating any more discord on these threads by sarcastic comments like this. If you have any grievances, please start a new thread called "Grievances about the forum and its users", perhaps under the Discussion Forum section.  
This last comment is meant sincerely. Thank you.




 

Quote

No one causes her to leave, she does it to herself. If she can't control her temper and rages and outbursts it's not our fault. Some have wanted to make me the scapegoat for the trouble, but I can't be blamed for the last 2 incidents since I wasn't even involved. She is the catalyst, be it with me or someone else. It's interesting to note that the board gets along fine and is generally peaceful otherwise.


She does it herself?!  Annie, Annie, Annie.  Surly you don't really believe this.  

And, yes,  Penny fights back.  Everyone know who she is and she has a reputation in this field to consider.  Me,  hey, no one knows who I am so my reputation from all my wild theories is safe...   I know nothing about anyone else outside of what they've written.  It apears Helen knows a lot about DNA but she could be a street sweeper in London for all I know.  Annie, cound be Dr. Fannie,  a top surgeon in New York... Denise could be some be a professor at Yale....  I hope I've made my point.

And, now back to the subject.

What do we know about the policman Grunberg?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 22, 2005, 09:52:25 AM
Quote

She does it herself?!  Annie, Annie, Annie.  Surly you don't really believe this.  

And, yes,  Penny fights back.  Everyone know who she is and she has a reputation in this field to consider.  


Bear, with all due respect, you were not there when these incidents occured, so you have no idea what happened since Penny now conveniently removed all her posts. So please do not jump to any conslusions.

Having said that, I just started a thread called "Grievances", that can serve the purpose of giving space to all those who want to continue discussing this to post their thoughts. Please lets try to restrict ourselves to that thread from now on instead of continuously bringing these things up on various other threads, rehashing old discords and starting new fights. If Penny wants to defend herself, she can do it there, that way everyone will know where to go if they want to read about it. Here is where it is:

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=board;action=display;num=1109087000;start=0

BTW, I recently quit my London street sweeping job - too much politics to deal with! I'll take DNA over it, hands down! ;)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 22, 2005, 10:31:34 AM
Actually Bear, before babies I was an English professor at a humble Michigan community college, but Yale would have been nice--I inagine the pay would have been better!!   ;) ;) ;)

Back to topic...... :)
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 22, 2005, 10:54:05 AM
So, what do we know about the policman Grunberg?

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 22, 2005, 11:18:54 AM
Quote
So, what do we know about the policman Grunberg?



Was he the investigator of the Grossman case or of the FS case?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 22, 2005, 11:33:25 AM
Quote
A couple of years after AA appeared her supposed brother in law Sergei was looking for her. He went to Dallforf, Clara Peutert,The Schwabes but diden´t find her. If I remember correctly AA was staying with Inspector Grunberg at the time. So this man "Sergei" diden`t find her but conviniently disappeared never to be heard of again. So the story goes. Anyway this man left a letter to AA and said that her child was in an orphanage in Galath in Rumania. This supposed letter was never found either. I don´t believe much of this story. Research was being done in Rumania in the 20´s but they never found any trace of the Tchaikovskis or of a child. I personally think it was all made up. And if she was in Rumania why on earth diden´t she go to her close relative Queen Marie?  As GD Olga Alexandrovna said: It doesen´t make any sense! Queen Marie would have helped and understood. She was an openminded person and nothing was strange to her.


Stephen mentioned Grunberg.

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Penny_Wilson on February 22, 2005, 12:30:09 PM
Quote

In what language?


German.  "Geb." is shorthand for geboren.

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Penny_Wilson on February 22, 2005, 12:38:30 PM
Quote

Was he the investigator of the Grossman case or of the FS case?



Inspector Franz Gruenberg was the Berlin Police Commissioner.  This information appears in a footnote attached to page 54 of Peter's book.  You really should read it for the basics of the case.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 22, 2005, 12:49:54 PM
Quote
Inspector Franz Gruenberg was the Berlin Police Commissioner.  This information appears in a footnote attached to page 54 of Peter's book.  You really should read it for the basics of the case.


Thanks. I will.

Quote
German.  "Geb." is shorthand for geboren.


Do you know why it said "geb 1904", wasn't Anastasia born in 1901?


Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 22, 2005, 12:53:27 PM
Quote


Inspector Franz Gruenberg was the Berlin Police Commissioner.  This information appears in a footnote attached to page 54 of Peter's book.  You really should read it for the basics of the case.


Thanks.  

Glad to see you're still here  :)

AGRBear

Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Penny_Wilson on February 22, 2005, 12:53:37 PM
Quote
The source is Peter Kurth.  It states that a man arrived at Nicholas von Schwabes having arrived at Clara's after being directed there by the Dalldorf Asylum.  On seeing a picture of AA he burst into tears and said he knew that lady and had travelled with her to Berlin.  On the back of the photo he scribbled some words which read (and I'm paraphrasing here as I don't carry the book around with me) something like Anastasia Nicolaevna ... Serge Ivanov(?) .... geb Petersburg 1904 - something like that (geb meaning born)  I've cross matched this with the list of guards given by Penny and Greg and there aren't any Ivanov's mentioned.  The photo with the inscription now forms part of hte Edward Fallows papers so it is real.  He also left a letter which von Schwabe (when quizzed by AA) said he had "lost" and which sent AA into a frenzy.


Yup, this is it.  See what happens when you read the evidence?  No misinformation.  Anyway, a young man showed up at Clara's apartment -- sent there by information obtained in the emigre community, and believing that this was where "Anastasia" was staying.  He saw a photo of Fraulein U, recognized her as the young woman he had brought to Berlin from Roumania, broke into tears, and wrote on the back of the photo the following (some of the words are illegible): " Anastasia Nicolaievna... Alexandereva... Ivan... Alexev... Shorov... geb. Pittersburg."  A photo of this inscription appears in Frau von Rathlef's book.  Clara took him to von Schwabe's apartment, where he told them that he had known Fraulein U and her husband in Bucharest, but that they were not actually married; he was the one who had brought her to Berlin; he had done some time in prison in Roumania because of this; he did NOT claim to be Serge Tschaikovsky.  This was Clara's guess -- which was not a bad one as Fraulein U said she had traveled to Berlin in the company of her "late husband's brother."  She did initially say that she had come to Berlin "alone."  She was trying to protect the Tschaikovskys because "If they were not kind to me, I would not be here now."

It appears that this "Serge" may have died in Latvia in 1929.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Penny_Wilson on February 22, 2005, 12:54:22 PM
Quote

Thanks.  

Glad to see you're still here  :)

AGRBear




Someone's got to keep us on the straight-and-narrow with the facts.  ;D
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Penny_Wilson on February 22, 2005, 12:55:54 PM
Quote

Do you know why it said "geb 1904", wasn't Anastasia born in 1901?



Sian said she was not working from the book, but rather from memory.  I have von Rathlef's book in front of me, and there is no date on Serge's inscription.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 22, 2005, 01:01:43 PM
Quote
 I have von Rathlef's book in front of me, and there is no date on Serge's inscription.


Did it just say "geb."? Which wouldn't make much sense without a date. Or was there something else there?
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Denise on February 22, 2005, 01:04:36 PM
Quote

Did it just say "geb."? Which wouldn't make much sense without a date. Or was there something else there?


As Penny said, part of the inscription is illegible.  Pehaps the pertinent info that went with "geb" was not readable...
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Helen_Azar on February 22, 2005, 01:06:47 PM
Quote

As Penny said, part of the inscription is illegible.  Pehaps the pertinent info that went with "geb" was not readable...


Oh ok, sorry I missed that part. Thanks.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Penny_Wilson on February 22, 2005, 01:24:28 PM
Quote

Did it just say "geb."? Which wouldn't make much sense without a date. Or was there something else there?


Again.  Here's what the legible part of the inscription says (the elipses indicate bits that can't be read): Anastasia Nicolaievna... Alexandereva... Ivan... Alexev... Shorov... geb. Pittersburg.

So "geb. Pittersburg" simply means "born in [St.] Petersburg."
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 22, 2005, 02:20:59 PM

Quote

Again.  Here's what the legible part of the inscription says (the elipses indicate bits that can't be read): Anastasia Nicolaievna... Alexandereva... Ivan... Alexev... Shorov... geb. Pittersburg.

So "geb. Pittersburg" simply means "born in [St.] Petersburg."


When working on my GR [German-Russian] genealogy which is in German even though my family members were born in Russia, the word "geb" is used and is the shorten version of geboren which in English means born.

Since he spelled Peterburg "Pittersburg",  Serge's, or whomever he was,  was  my kinda speller  ::) .

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Olga on February 23, 2005, 08:19:48 AM
Quote
Someone's got to keep us on the straight-and-narrow with the facts.  ;D


Her Royal Highness has returned to keep us plebs looking here we should be.
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Arleen on February 23, 2005, 08:38:13 AM
Why do you guys have to always get so PERSONAL!  It spoils things for the other thousand of us who read these threads......
Arleen
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Forum Admin on February 23, 2005, 09:53:55 AM
Darth,
Uncalled for comment. No one said anything about you, so there was no reason to attack Penny. Penny was trying to make a joke, even I could see that. If this were basketball, I'd call a technical foul. (google it if you don't understand).
FA
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: AGRBear on February 23, 2005, 05:56:53 PM
Quote

Yup, this is it.  See what happens when you read the evidence?  No misinformation.  Anyway, a young man showed up at Clara's apartment -- sent there by information obtained in the emigre community, and believing that this was where "Anastasia" was staying.  He saw a photo of Fraulein U, recognized her as the young woman he had brought to Berlin from Roumania, broke into tears, and wrote on the back of the photo the following (some of the words are illegible): " Anastasia Nicolaievna... Alexandereva... Ivan... Alexev... Shorov... geb. Pittersburg."  A photo of this inscription appears in Frau von Rathlef's book.  Clara took him to von Schwabe's apartment, where he told them that he had known Fraulein U and her husband in Bucharest, but that they were not actually married; he was the one who had brought her to Berlin; he had done some time in prison in Roumania because of this; he did NOT claim to be Serge Tschaikovsky.  This was Clara's guess -- which was not a bad one as Fraulein U said she had traveled to Berlin in the company of her "late husband's brother."  She did initially say that she had come to Berlin "alone."  She was trying to protect the Tschaikovskys because "If they were not kind to me, I would not be here now."

It appears that this "Serge" may have died in Latvia in 1929.


Could the Tschaikosvky's have been  from Latvian???  If so, I wonder how it was spelled in Latvia.

Yurovsky was said to have had brought in his own "Letts" [Latvians].  Penny do you have the names of the Letts?

If not Reds then they could have been part of the Whites who were moving into Ekaterinburg under Gajda in July of 1918.  Families often traveled with their soldiers relatives rather than be left behind....

AGRBear
Title: Re: Anastasia Claimant - Anna Anderson a.k.a Franziska Schanzkowska
Post by: Penny_Wilson on February 23, 2005, 07:10:56 PM
Quote

Could the Tschaikosvky's have been  from Latvian???  If so, I wonder how it was spelled in Latvia.

Yurovsky was said to have had brought in his own "Letts" [Latvians].  Penny do you have the names of the Letts?

If not Reds then they could have been part of the Whites who were moving into Ekaterinburg under Gajda in July of 1918.  Families often traveled with their soldiers relatives rather than be left behind....

AGRBear


Yurovsky's Letts were a mixed bag of nationalities -- Lacher was from Austria, Verhas from Hungary, and Netrebin from Russia itself.  The only two actual Baltic Letts in the group were Adolph Lepa -- who refused to shoot the family, but who later accompanied the truck laden with bodies into the forest -- quite an interesting man from this point of view.

The other Baltic Lett was a man known only as "Soames."  Sometimes it appears as "Zomes."  I always thought that Soames was an English name -- and there was one passing mention by someone in Tobolsk -- I can't remember where I read this, but perhaps Greg will, though it was only one brief sentence -- that there was an Englishman among the Emperor's guards.   Now this person was speaking of the Tobolsk guard, and we were unable to find any "English" sort of name among that guards' list.  So either the speaker was mistaken, or it was a rumor that he was repeating without context, or he meant some other group of guards.  Given the connection between Lysma and England, I have wondered from time to time if this "Soames" wasn't the person meant.  But this is all very nebulous until I can locate the book I read the "Englishman" quote in...