Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Imperial Family => Topic started by: Svetabel on December 16, 2007, 04:23:09 AM

Title: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on December 16, 2007, 04:23:09 AM
GDss Viktoria Fedorovna (Ducky) in 1916 in a Russian-British orphanage.

(http://www.picatom.com/c/1916-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/c/1916-1.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on July 25, 2008, 10:40:14 AM
GDss Victoria Fedorovna in 1925 with Hitler.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/1925.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: V_Corona on November 10, 2008, 10:00:38 PM
Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Romanov/MARCAS%20DE%20AGUA%20PARA%20AP/kkkk1copia.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: V_Corona on November 10, 2008, 10:02:02 PM
Is this the house of GD Kirill in finland?

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Romanov/MARCAS%20DE%20AGUA%20PARA%20AP/casadekirillenfinlandiacopia.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: antti on November 10, 2008, 11:50:00 PM
I don't know about that building but when they escaped the revolution they stayed few years at the Haikko manor.

http://www.muuka.com/finnishpumpkin/manor/h/mehah/manor_mehah.html
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Alexandre64 on January 13, 2009, 02:42:47 AM
Victoria Melita:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Photo/miechen/97365741ef31.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj213/Alexandre64_2007/Romanov%20Jewel/RUS-grandduchessjewels1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 13, 2009, 08:45:26 PM
Victoria Melita:


From ursula's site:

Her second husband presented her some outstanding jewels, but this magnificent sapphire and diamond parure with elements of the "Thistle of Scotland" , the "Rose of England" and the "Irish Shamrock", as diamond stylised three leaf trefoils, was a heirloom of her mother Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna, the Duchess of Saxe-Coburg.

She received this parure (tiara, necklace, large stomacher), with the symbolic ornaments of the United Kingdom, from her father, Tsar Alexander II. on the occasion of her wedding with the son of Queen Victoria, the Duke of Edinburgh...she [VM] sold this necklace with the two part stomacher, with a large triangle diamond as pendant to the clover, after the revolution to Cartier, Paris. Above in the picture, the Grand Duchess wore the necklace and stomacher and a matching unidentified tiara with diamonds and sapphires, the whereabouts of which is unknown.


Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Reco on February 05, 2009, 02:54:44 AM

victoria-melita in saint-briac

http://blog.matoo.net/index.php/archives/2003/07/24/le-mystre-victoria-melita-saint-briac/
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Reco on February 05, 2009, 02:58:26 AM
Villa de Kiril et de Melita


http://patrimoine.region-bretagne.fr/sdx/sribzh/main.xsp?execute=show_document&id=MERIMEEIA35006715
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: V_Corona on February 05, 2009, 05:33:10 PM
I can't open the second link  :( Is these the house?

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac4.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: V_Corona on February 06, 2009, 10:52:24 AM
I believe that there lives Grand Duchess Leonida, widow of Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich.
I have more pictures of Ker Agonid (wich mean Victoria in Breton, according to GD Leonida) if you want to see them.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 06, 2009, 11:10:38 AM
I think they all live in Spain now. Princess Leonida's elder daughter married into wealth.

Yes would love to see more pics. Thanks.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: V_Corona on February 06, 2009, 11:16:34 AM
Thank you!!

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac2.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac3.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac4.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac5.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac6.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac7.jpg

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk226/kieffer26_2008/Maria%20Vladimirovna/CasadeStBriac8.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 06, 2009, 11:50:56 AM
Thanks for posting ! Where did you find them ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: V_Corona on February 06, 2009, 11:58:43 AM
They're from Mémoires d'Exil, by Frédéric Mitterrand.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 06, 2009, 01:24:03 PM
Thanks ! I wish I had bought a copy of that. I got the first part in tape. Is it out on DVD ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: V_Corona on February 06, 2009, 01:54:51 PM
Actually, I have the DVD.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 06, 2009, 02:43:37 PM
I might try to buy it in France if they still have it...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marlene on February 18, 2009, 03:22:09 PM
Helene Kirby never married.   In the early 1960s, she was involved with Prince Friedrich Wilhelm of Prussia, a first cousin to her half-sister, but Louis Ferdinand did not consider her good enough ... Helene inherited from her late father, Sumner Moore Kirby.


I think they all live in Spain now. Princess Leonida's elder daughter married into wealth.

Yes would love to see more pics. Thanks.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 19, 2009, 10:07:41 AM
So there is where the wealth came from ! Thanks Marlene for the info. I heard that Helene and her half sister Maria did not get along.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Olgasha on May 20, 2009, 03:38:17 PM

GD Kiryll Vladimirovich
(http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/3276/kiryl.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: violetta on August 31, 2009, 02:27:53 PM
Although Vladimirovichi are not my favorite royals (mainly due to Kiril`s behavior after the abdication and generally due to their lust for power) I deeply sympathize with Victoria Melita who suffered so much to finally marry the man that she loved and who had to face her husband`s betrayal. no wonder that she was so much changed at the end of her life. i wonder how she learned about her husband`s affair. did anyone inform her? did she discover this herself? what happened?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on September 01, 2009, 01:32:15 AM
i wonder how she learned about her husband`s affair. did anyone inform her? did she discover this herself? what happened?

The question about Kyril'sl cheating on his wife we had discussed in other threads (I think the Hesse Forum). The evidence is that we don't know and will never know the truth. The hints on Kyrill's extra-marital affair or something like that we can only find in Queen Marie of Romania's diaries if I remember correctly. Only hints..so we only can specualte on what happened in the early 1920s when Victoria F. learned something disgusting for her about her beloved husband.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on November 06, 2009, 09:58:31 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/hpqscan0006-1-1.jpg)
sitting Victoria, Nicholas, Olga behind them is KR, GD Micheal, GD George Mikhailovitch and directly above Micheal on the top row GD Kyrill.
1913
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 06, 2009, 01:09:02 PM
Great photo ! Thanks for sharing it ! Not a lot of photos of Ducky, Olga, Nicky, Floppy togather. I once saw a photo somehere of Ducky and Alicky laughing. I think they were playing games. Don't know if it dates back to Hesse or in Russia ? Anybody saw it ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Teddy on November 29, 2009, 01:01:52 PM
Ashanti, the picture with  the Tsar in the middle is from a book isn't? I've seen that one before. Who are the other 2 ladies?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on November 29, 2009, 02:22:30 PM
Ashanti, the picture with  the Tsar in the middle is from a book isn't? I've seen that one before. Who are the other 2 ladies?

It's from Ferrand's Un Album de Famille. I cropped and enchanted the middle of the photo however I could scan the whole photo if you like?

The woman next to Olga in not noted, however the woman next to Victoria is Maria Nicolaievna Tolstoi, nee Princess Mestchersky
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on November 30, 2009, 12:58:00 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/hpqscan0001-4.jpg)

for slightly larger version

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/hpqscan0001-4.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: katmaxoz on January 24, 2010, 10:16:07 PM
Ducky with Maria and Kira 1913

(http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/29334/2706969890102753164S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2706969890102753164hopcdT)

(http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/42686/2565593350102753164S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2565593350102753164FGutHL)

If anyone has a bigger version of the second full length image I'd appreciate seeing it.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 25, 2010, 09:30:42 AM
In the photograph in Reply 273, the nurses in the front row are wearing what look like British nurses' uniforms. Does anyone know where it was taken?

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2010, 12:13:28 PM
Ducky's tiara was sold to Missy and then passed to Helen (where the Romanian Royal Family still has it). What about the sumsous necklace she is wearing here in the photo. Was it also sold ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: katmaxoz on January 25, 2010, 04:53:16 PM
Ducky's tiara was sold to Missy and then passed to Helen (where the Romanian Royal Family still has it). What about the sumsous necklace she is wearing here in the photo. Was it also sold ?

I really don't know the history of the necklace, but here is a picture of it I have in my files

(http://i46.tinypic.com/o05wco.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2010, 05:03:14 PM
Think they are sapphires and a tiara is included in the set. Don't know what happen to it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 25, 2010, 05:22:21 PM
Ducky's tiara was sold to Missy and then passed to Helen (where the Romanian Royal Family still has it). What about the sumsous necklace she is wearing here in the photo. Was it also sold ?

VM's magnificent sapphire and diamond parure was a heirloom of her mother Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna, the Duchess of Saxe-Coburg. If you look closely, you can see the symbolic elements of the "Thistle of Scotland" , the "Rose of England" and the "Irish Shamrock",in diamonds. Marie had received a whole set--tiara, necklace, stomacher (with a large triangle diamond as pendant to the clover) as a wedding gift from her father, AII. VM sold the necklace, with the 2 part stomacher, after the Revolution to Cartier, Paris. The tiara's whereabouts are unknown.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 25, 2010, 06:43:44 PM
I know it's not that one but this tiara looks almost the same as Romanian one if you exclude frame...

http://royalromania.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/margarita-of-romania-w-greek-tiara.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on January 25, 2010, 06:49:44 PM
Isn't it the same? Queen Marie bought VM's Greek key tiara as a wedding present for Princess Helen when she married Prince Carol. I believe this is the tiara--come down to Helen's granddaughter.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 25, 2010, 09:55:23 PM
Kyra Kyrillovna.1932


(http://i48.tinypic.com/9vjosh.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 26, 2010, 12:25:17 PM
What a beautiful photo of Kyra. It is odd though to play piano with a tiara on. But I know her mother Ducky also loved playing the piano too. I wonder if her eldesr sister Maria also loved music ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 29, 2010, 01:44:10 PM


(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2787/louisferdinandandfamily.jpg)

(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/2787/louisferdinandandfamily.jpg)

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Sara Araújo on January 29, 2010, 01:55:38 PM
Those two are really sweet!  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on April 09, 2010, 12:03:23 PM
Victoria Melita with her daughters Marie and Kira :

(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/441/grosfurstincyrille.jpg) (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/grosfurstincyrille.jpg/)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 09, 2010, 03:07:43 PM
Lovely postcard. Royalty today do not pose with their children wearing their best jewels.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: imperial angel on April 09, 2010, 08:25:08 PM
No, they don't as much. The images of royalty, particularly in the Scandinavian countries, I've read, have become much more ordinary and like the rest of the people. That's a big contrast to Imperial Russia where the image of the splendor of the Czars was important. Victoria Melita is wearing very heavy jewels here. Also, less is more seems to be the opinion of jewelry in the modern era, whereas around the turn of the 19th century, especially in royal circles jewels where worn in profusion.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 26, 2010, 01:56:01 PM
Victoria Melita

(http://i42.tinypic.com/oj2gsy.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 27, 2010, 06:25:14 PM
Ducky looked very worn out and sad...she had a suffering face.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 12, 2010, 08:29:34 AM
Vladimir was a handsome fellow...

(http://i44.tinypic.com/seaq8j.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 12, 2010, 08:34:44 AM
Big fellow ! Is this photo still on sale in Ebay ?  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 12, 2010, 08:35:43 AM
nope. and yes he was kind of Big, but very handsome aswell
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 23, 2010, 01:37:28 PM
Victoria , sister Beatrice, Mother Marie and some other people. Courtesy of the ANNO

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2dm58uw.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 24, 2010, 08:11:45 AM
Is it possible to post a bigger version of this photo ? Thanks !  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 24, 2010, 08:16:26 AM
 i posted it in a xl size but the forum resizes pictures to fit well

http://i45.tinypic.com/2dm58uw.jpg
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 24, 2010, 08:25:35 AM
Thanks Katenka !

I can see it more clearly now (as well as the words). When was this photo taken ? In Coburg ? I think Baby Bee was not married at this time. It is a rare photo. Thanks for posting it. :-)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 24, 2010, 09:09:02 AM
1902. Place, i dpnt know.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 25, 2010, 10:41:22 PM
The timing about right.  ;) My guess is that it was in Coburg.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 29, 2010, 05:06:29 PM
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2752/00070ftf.jpg) (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/00070ftf.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Olgasha on June 30, 2010, 03:59:08 AM
Kiryl Vladimirovich
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5780/b87dhm.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 30, 2010, 01:01:06 PM
Kyrill

(http://i48.tinypic.com/4izwh2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 30, 2010, 01:04:03 PM
He looks a bit like King Haakon (Karl of Denmark) to me.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 30, 2010, 01:13:12 PM
yes, he does look a bit like him in that one.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Jessamy on July 08, 2010, 01:30:34 PM
I was reading on the main page Muriel Buchannan's biography on Victoria Melita, and she says..."But on one occasion her kindness caused me a great deal of unhappiness. "It would be so wonderful if Meriel could marry Sandro, it would be such fun to have her with us," she told my mother; but it all came to nothing."  Which Sandro are they speaking about?  Thanks.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on July 08, 2010, 01:36:11 PM
I was reading on the main page Muriel Buchannan's biography on Victoria Melita, and she says..."But on one occasion her kindness caused me a great deal of unhappiness. "It would be so wonderful if Meriel could marry Sandro, it would be such fun to have her with us," she told my mother; but it all came to nothing."  Which Sandro are they speaking about?  Thanks.

Duke Alexander of Leuchtenberg,great love of Muriel.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 08, 2010, 02:49:10 PM
Thanks. But cannot be as it would be an unequal marriage.  :(
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 08, 2010, 03:31:59 PM
The Leuchtenbergs married into most of the royal families of  Europe & Brazil.  Including  Russia. They had "Imperial Highness} status in the Russian Empire,  {Alexander ] and  Napoleon I.  The Swedish royal family descends  from  the   first Queen Consort of the current  dynasty. They would have been perfectly equal
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on July 08, 2010, 10:43:01 PM
The Leuchtenbergs married into most of the royal families of  Europe & Brazil.  Including  Russia. They had "Imperial Highness} status in the Russian Empire,  {Alexander ] and  Napoleon I.  The Swedish royal family descends  from  the   first Queen Consort of the current  dynasty. They would have been perfectly equal

The question is that Muriel was not equal for Alexander,and his father was adamant on this subject.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 09, 2010, 08:46:34 AM
Did he return her feelings at all or was it an unequal love affair in other ways as well?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 09, 2010, 10:27:48 AM
Indeed. I don't think he did. It would be nice if he had married her, she would be like another Daisy Pless.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on July 09, 2010, 12:55:26 PM
Did he return her feelings at all or was it an unequal love affair in other ways as well?

The one who loved in their case was Muriel, for Alexander she was a passing fancy though with sincere and deep feelings, more probably he never had an intention to marry her as his finances (and of his father) were in deplorable state and they need a rich and equal bride...interesting that after all Alexander married a ballet dancer in 1917 for love..not a wealthy woman.
Muriel never recovered from that love and even in later years idealised Alexander in her memoirs. She said they couldn't be together as they were unequal and his father was against, but she obviously understood her Prince Charming just didn't love her so much as she loved him.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 09, 2010, 01:33:51 PM
Yes. Kyril and Ducky were both wealthy in their own rights, however both of their sources were tied with Russia. When the revolution came, they lost everything. The only one who had something was Minny, who owned two houses (one with her sisters (Hvidore)) and another a cottage with her husband) in Denmark. I wonder if Ducky would have kept some money in England or Germany ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: royal_netherlands on July 11, 2010, 06:10:47 PM
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f78/opzich/VictoriaMelitasmilling.jpg)

Smilling!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 11, 2010, 06:31:32 PM
I had bought some images from that occasion. She was sailing to the US in 1924 (?) for her big tour. It garnered a fair amount of publcity but it wasn't the financial and PR success that had been hoped for.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 12, 2010, 07:46:48 AM
Victoria M

(http://i29.tinypic.com/2hn49si.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Veronica on July 12, 2010, 02:18:48 PM
The picture was already posted in Victoria Melita's own thread.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 13, 2010, 07:03:54 AM
Yes, i know Veronica. I found out just after i posted it, But well, this is her topic as Grand Duchess and its right posted here too.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 13, 2010, 08:30:51 AM
Yes. You can post it in both threads. Since the title here is "his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 13, 2010, 09:04:40 AM
Actually, you shouldn't post in both threads as a general rule. This was obviously an error with 2 posters finding the same picture coincidentally at the same time. To do it as a regular manner of business just causes confusion and clutters up threads. I actually think that since VM's Hesse thread is past the usual cut-off limit, it's time to lock it up and move all  her business over here.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 13, 2010, 09:08:57 AM
That would be fine!. I thought to have two topics about her was kind of redundant
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 13, 2010, 09:38:22 AM
I agree with that too, but she is a unique case: A British (Edinburgh)/German (Coburg) Princess marrying into German (Hesse) and then to Russia.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Veronica on July 13, 2010, 02:39:42 PM
Yes, i know Veronica. I found out just after i posted it, But well, this is her topic as Grand Duchess and its right posted here too.

Well, I was just commenting it, because I remembered seeing it in the other thread.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 13, 2010, 02:49:43 PM
I agree with that too, but she is a unique case: A British (Edinburgh)/German (Coburg) Princess marrying into German (Hesse) and then to Russia.

Which is why her ultimate thread should be where she spent the majority of her life--as a Russian Grand Duchess. Her childhood is already discussed on the Edinburgh/Coburg thread (Windsors), her early marriage and first child on their respective threads (Hesse), her 2nd marriage and family on this thread.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 20, 2010, 10:01:28 AM
Victoria and little Kyra

(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/939/dasje.jpg) (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/dasje.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on July 20, 2010, 07:34:17 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/Krill/krillkirawedding001.jpg)
Kyrill and Kyra
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on July 21, 2010, 03:37:11 AM
Was this one taken at Kira's wedding with Louis Ferdinand?

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on July 21, 2010, 04:01:29 AM
Yes it was taken during her wedding to Louis Ferdinand.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 21, 2010, 07:48:14 AM
The Orthodox ceremony i think. The wedding was moved later so that the Kaiser could attend too.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 24, 2010, 08:36:55 AM
Victoria, sad eyes

(http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8366/ij8a.jpg) (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/ij8a.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Olgasha on August 24, 2010, 09:11:17 AM
I'm always wondering, why this woman was considered beauty. I remember GD Aleksander Mikhailovich remarked in his memories that she was beautiful, as well as her sisters.

What do you think? she was a beauty or not, in your opinion?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 24, 2010, 09:15:19 AM
Well, compared with Beatrice or Missy, she wasnt a beauty, but i must say she has a wonderful sight. I ve read she had a rare eye colour share, kinda purple.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 24, 2010, 04:29:19 PM
I think she had beauty of expression that seldom capture in photos I guess...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Olgasha on September 15, 2010, 02:11:42 PM
Kiryll Vladimirovich
(http://www.cofe.ru/images/pictures/blagovest/old/images/rom-2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on September 20, 2010, 09:02:19 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/krvic001-1.jpg)
GD Kyrill and GD Victoria
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 21, 2010, 10:10:41 AM
Interesting ! Where & when was this photo taken ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Olgasha on October 06, 2010, 08:46:16 AM
GD Victoria Melita with her daughters
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1290/kswiktoriamelita.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on October 06, 2010, 07:41:38 PM
Helena and Victoria
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/elenaducky001-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Olgasha on October 07, 2010, 06:49:56 AM
GD Kiryl
(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/9247/kiryln.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: violetta on November 11, 2010, 12:20:53 PM
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/viktfeod.jpg)

with kyra and maria
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Olgasha on November 15, 2010, 05:11:17 AM
Kiryl Vladimirovich
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6152/17939granddukecyril.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 15, 2010, 12:15:46 PM
He did not look like a fun person.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 16, 2010, 03:10:19 AM
'He did not look like a fun person.'

This looks like an official portrait photograph, in which you would not expect him to look like a fun person.

But isn't Kirill one of the chaps standing on a ladder in one of the pictures on another thread, clearly messing about and enjoying themselves?

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Teddy on November 16, 2010, 06:16:07 AM
Personally I would invite him at my party!  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 16, 2010, 08:46:26 AM
Not really...I think Boris would be more fun to be with than Kyrill...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 17, 2010, 09:08:38 AM
A very nice portrait of Victoria Melita

(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5237/10083500a.jpg) (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/10083500a.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 17, 2010, 01:20:43 PM
Very flattering too...Ducky had rings around her eyes like her father.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: RealAnastasia on November 18, 2010, 12:02:46 AM
Personally I would invite him at my party!  ;)

Me too! I've seen pics of Kyrill havin fun and he seems to be a very happy person. I don't know why Eric would invite Boris to his party inestead of Kyrill. As Kalafrana said, the pic posted above was official, and you are not supposed to look as a joyful person at official portraits. As far as I know Grand Duke Kyrill was not boring at all...

RealAnastasia
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 18, 2010, 03:16:30 AM
I think Boris's parties would be pretty wild.

Personal feelings entirely, but I think the most interesting of the Vladimirovichi was Andrei.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 18, 2010, 10:31:10 AM
Boris is more of a fun person and less of a political animal. That was the reason why he and Missy hit it off, they wanted fun and do not view things seriously. I think Andrei was the best choice of the brothers as a husband.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 18, 2010, 11:44:09 AM
According to Greg King and Penny Wilson's book on the Russian court, Andrei took a degree in law, so he had a brain as well. That's one reason why I think he's interesting.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 18, 2010, 11:48:51 AM
I totally agree with you Ann, he was the only one who took the trouble with Anna Anderson and to get the root of it all.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on November 18, 2010, 01:07:50 PM
According to Greg King and Penny Wilson's book on the Russian court, Andrei took a degree in law, so he had a brain as well. That's one reason why I think he's interesting.

Ann

He may have had some brain, but he didn't have a lot of personality! :-) He seems to have spent what money he left Russia with in the casinos of southern France, and then lived on his wife. the way that Kchessinska provided for her "useless Romanov males" (as a friend of mine once styled both Andrei and his putative son) is the admirable side of a person who until the revolution seemed pretty selfish.

By the way, Court of the Last Tsar is Greg King's book.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 19, 2010, 03:41:15 AM
I'm not impressed with any of the Vladimirovichi - it's just that Andrei was the least bad of the bunch.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: XJaseyRaeX on November 19, 2010, 06:21:11 AM
Nice photo. I wonder how her relationship with them differ from Elisabeth ?


It always seems to me that Elisabeth was a daddy's girl and Ernst doted on her. Ducky doted on her as well, but i wonder if the marital strains had any effect on her feelings towards Elisabeth, rather than with her two younger girls she had with a man she loved.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 19, 2010, 11:32:37 AM
Well...Ducky later had her hands full when her eldest daughter Marie got boy crazy.  :D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Olgasha on November 21, 2010, 05:03:33 AM
Victoria Melita with daughter
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6670/07426r.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 22, 2010, 08:16:15 AM
I am pretty sure this was Maria, the elder daughter.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 22, 2010, 08:18:19 AM
Yes, its Maria.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on November 25, 2010, 04:48:34 AM
Gd Kyrill Vladimirovich

(http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/5827/eugnedebeauharnais.jpg) (http://img593.imageshack.us/i/eugnedebeauharnais.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Павэл on December 04, 2010, 02:27:52 PM
A little on the Removeal of the Guard Equippage:

Its been noted that Dr. King has made comment and other comments are also in place. Consider alternatively:

Nicholas has abdicated and hence is no longer in a command position. That privelige then passes to Michael. Michael passes executive authority (which by definition must include final military authority) to the Duma Committee. In the rule of Nations, the state never dies, although its personnel might, so these two transfers are immediate and 'unbroken'. Hence KV is now taking orders from the duma committee or from any subcommittee it has formed and delegated to or from any military commander it has authorised for that purpose. But the standing orders remain.

Put another way, until the new government (or its appointed delegates) say otherwise, The Guards previous orders (defend the palace) ARE STILL IN PLACE.

But what about swearing loyalty to the new regime?

The military etiquette (accross the world) is for unit commanders to take loyalty oaths from their soldiers. Before this the commanders will swear loyalty either through their own higher commanders or in person. So, KV can easily go to the capital and swear loyalty. As guard commander he would be entitled to travel about to ensure smooth runing of the regiment. Upon finishing he returns to the regiment and gets his subordinates to swear their new loyalties.

If soldiers had to personally take oaths directly to the head of government there would be chaos - is the whole russian army to get the train back to Petrograd every time a monarch 'passes on'? In the middle of a war? Did the troops in Afghanistan suddenly fly back to Washington when Obama was elected? The military etiquette -the command chain principle - is set up just for these eventualities. Orders remain until rescinded by the new authority, etc.

KV might not be a legal traitor, but he has still abandoned his post.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 04, 2010, 02:32:26 PM
Yes. Because of that, people are not quite sure about KV's character. His abandoning of his post & duty damaged his authority later...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on December 05, 2010, 04:46:10 AM
In the British Armed Forces (except the Royal Navy, curiously enough) members swear allegiance on joining to the reigning monarch by name, and his/her 'heirs and successors', so there is no need for any fresh swearing-in on the death of a monarch.

In Russia things were different. The Decembrist confrontation took place when the St Petersburg garrison were assembled to swear allegiance to the new monarch following the death of Alexander I.

As I understand it, the American armed Forces swear allegiance to the American constitution, not to the president of the day, so no need for new swearings on a change of president (potentially every four years, so potentially chaotic).

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Павэл on December 05, 2010, 05:07:37 AM
Indeed - even if Russia did require the re-swearing of an oath then this can still be done via the command chain, the entire regiment does not necessarily need to be shipped to the capital. Each nation has its own variation, but each has recreated the command-chain principle in one variety or another and also different variations on 'interregnum rules' depending on precise circumstances.

I would argue that even in russias case, then loyalty oaths and standing orders carry over - otherwise on the death of Alexander I (presuming the command chain 'dies' with the monarch) the regiment would stop functioning and all soldiers would be released. If a parade could be arranged then the loyalty oaths did infact carry over to Nicholas I.

In much older days soldiers (presuming they were 'freemen') were indeed released from service upon the death of a predecessor and had to re-swear. But that was before the ideology of the 'state' (as opposed to merely 'terrain ruled by a person') was in use.

The question then becomes 'Has Russia, at some point prior to 1917, become a state ruled by a monarch or not?' I would argue that she probably had crossed that line and re-swearing ceremonies are merely formalities. The main 'indicator' for me would be the very existance of succession laws - surely an indicator that the nation has rules and therefore independant existence beyond an individual.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2010, 01:00:44 PM
Anyhow Kyrill's actions were problematic anyway you look at it...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on December 09, 2010, 01:53:08 PM
Marie of Leiningen with her son :

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/997688marieleiningenmitsohn.png) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=997688marieleiningenmitsohn.png)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 09, 2010, 04:16:16 PM
One of the least written grand duchess of all time. I think she would merit more than what have been offered in books already...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: imperial angel on December 10, 2010, 03:12:44 AM
Victoria Melita with daughter
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6670/07426r.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6670/07426r.jpg)


Nice heavily beaded dress!! It reminds me more of later 1920s heavily beaded dresses, but she looked lovely in it.I don't think I had seen a picture of her in this dress before.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2010, 01:34:31 PM
Marie in looks took after her Aunt Sandy (Furstin Alexandra of Hohenlohe-Langenburg) & grandmother Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on December 25, 2010, 06:21:29 PM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/kiravladcost001-1.jpg)
Kira and Vladimir

(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vladimir%20fam/kirapic001-1.jpg)
Kira
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: THERRY on December 26, 2010, 04:19:25 AM
Beautiful ! Do You know what they are doing ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on December 26, 2010, 10:22:57 AM
Unfortunetly the caption only said they were in costume but did not say why.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 26, 2010, 12:40:25 PM
When are they from ? Kira looked rather young here.  ;)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 26, 2010, 07:07:18 PM
Marie in looks took after her Aunt Sandy (Furstin Alexandra of Hohenlohe-Langenburg) & grandmother Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna.

Was she really called Sandy in the family? I've only ever read Sandra.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 27, 2010, 10:32:31 AM
She signed her name "Sandy" in her letters to Missy.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on December 27, 2010, 07:40:45 PM
Interesting, thank you. Her children seem to have had a fairly close relationship with Victoria Melita's children--at least based on photos I've seen (I haven't read anything regarding it). There are a number of photos with Kyra and Marie with some of Alexandra's daughters. Supposedly, the relationship with Marie's children was a little tenser--at least with Ileana. I think that was in either a Royalty Digest article or The Grand Duchesses. Either way, I think it was John Wimbles who wrote of it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on December 28, 2010, 02:11:36 AM
New for me portrait of Viktoria Melita. By I.Kosmin, 1915-1916 years

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111599_00011-1-th.jpg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111599_00011-1.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on December 29, 2010, 07:14:21 AM
GD Kirill and Victoria Melita with the staff of her infirmary

(http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111532_0001-1-th.jpeg) (http://www.picatom.com/1r/1111532_0001-1.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 29, 2010, 01:38:17 PM
Lovely images. I wonder if Ducky did more paintings in St' Petersburg.  :D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashanti01 on January 03, 2011, 01:24:41 AM
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/ashanti01/vkgrp1920001-1-1.jpg)
Sandra, Vladimir, GD Victoria, GD Krill in 1920
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 03, 2011, 12:17:25 PM
Sandra, Ducky, Kyrill and Gottfried (son of Sandra who later married Princess Margarita of Greece). The child is too young to be Vladimir.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: ashdean on January 04, 2011, 08:09:55 AM
Sandra, Ducky, Kyrill and Gottfried (son of Sandra who later married Princess Margarita of Greece). The child is too young to be Vladimir.
The child IS Vladimir....the young man on the end is Gottfried....ashanti was right but did not mention who the last person was
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2011, 12:45:59 PM
Really ? Didn't know there is such a big gap between their ages (Gottfried & Vladimir).
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 04, 2011, 12:48:22 PM
Gottfried was born in 1897 and Vladimir in 1917 . There s 20 years of difference.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 04, 2011, 12:51:26 PM
No wonder...Was this taken in Schloss Langenburg ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 08, 2011, 08:26:36 AM
Sketch of Victoria Melita

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/2901/mp006628.jpg) (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/mp006628.jpg/)
 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2011, 11:43:05 AM
Very crude drawing...Looks like Butt-Head's girl friend.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 08, 2011, 11:48:23 AM
yes!! at least the one of Alexandra was better and more accurated.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2011, 11:57:58 AM
I don't think Ducky (who was very artistic herself) would have been pleased with the result. I read and saw her painted a lot (in some photos), I wonder where her paintings go ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: violetta on January 29, 2011, 10:27:09 AM
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/kiraimariakirillovnu.jpg)


daughters kira and maria
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: violetta on January 29, 2011, 10:32:20 AM
maria

(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/marie28ak.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 19, 2011, 01:52:34 PM
Kyrill

(http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/9099/jbugiyg.jpg) (http://img856.imageshack.us/i/jbugiyg.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on May 09, 2011, 09:14:25 AM
A sweet image of Kyrill and baby Maria

(http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkxm5rhjBX1qzjmo0o1_500.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 01, 2011, 09:31:01 AM
A  sad looking Victoria Melita

(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2250/171iju.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/171iju.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 07, 2011, 05:31:03 PM
I think she was actually smiling here. Nice photo !
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: THERRY on July 25, 2011, 03:02:04 AM
A new photo of Ducky with daughter Kyra
(http://i52.tinypic.com/sffby0.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 25, 2011, 05:53:00 PM
A postcard that frequently appeared on ebay.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: THERRY on July 26, 2011, 03:37:46 AM
In fact I have bought on Ebay
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 26, 2011, 11:29:01 AM
Congrats. I bought mine there too. Don't think there is a postcard with all three children...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Laura_ on July 31, 2011, 04:36:52 PM
(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9717/daughterduchess.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/808/daughterduchess.jpg/)

(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1453/duchessgrand006.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/808/duchessgrand006.jpg/)

(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/66/duchessgrand007.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/duchessgrand007.jpg/)

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 02, 2011, 03:06:08 PM
Too bad we do not get to see the dress in the third photo. It looks very grand with the tassels.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: mishaxenia on August 18, 2011, 11:09:56 AM
Curious image of   Grand Duke Kyrill  to  Paris in 1910 ,"the baptism "  of his snowmobile, a modern model  for the times .

this is an  newspaper articles in French of 2 december 1910


---Le grand-duc Cyrille fait baptiser son traîneau automobile - Une cérémonie originale a eu lieu hier à nie de la Grande-Jatte, dans un établissement de construction aéronautique. Le grand-duc Cyrille de Russie a fait procéder au baptême d'un traîneau automobile qu'il s'est fait construire dans le but de faire du tourisme hivernal. Les popes de l'église russe de la rue Daru en habits sacerdotaux, ont procédé à la bénédiction de l'engin et un lunch a été ensuite offert aux invités. Le grand-duc Cyrille va faire transporter son traîneau en Suisse, où auront lieu les premiers essais. Le Petit Parisien –

(http://inlinethumb21.webshots.com/11412/2692196210105221653S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2692196210105221653DDNJvP)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on August 31, 2011, 05:46:22 AM
GDss Victoria and her daughters, 1913 year.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/Rarefind/1913.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 01, 2011, 01:32:59 PM
They look like they are caught by surpised ! Ducky looked a bit plump here.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Thomas_Hesse on October 17, 2011, 02:03:23 PM
The photos at 2.18 and following in this clip were taken in Wolfsgarten! In her bedroom...
This very room presently houses the Art Nouveau collection of the Hesse family.... the walls are still exactly the same...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO2iQWNhZ20&feature=related
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: strom on November 03, 2011, 01:43:16 PM
Friends:

I am interested in finding out why GD Kirill traveled with the Inter-Allied delegations when they left Petrograd for Port Romanov in February 1917.  It appears he occupied a full carriage.  The matter was reported by Samuel Hoare (Fourth Seal) though I have never seen it reported elsewhere.  I suspect there must have been some very 'interesting' discussions between Milner, Revelstok and the Grand Duke on the long journey north concerning the approaching 'troubles' in Russia --perhaps the English simply said everything will proceed 'perfectly well, thank you'!       
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 03, 2011, 05:05:26 PM
Love to know more about this conversation.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 04, 2011, 05:04:18 AM
Perhaps it was a matter of protocol that a Grand Duke should accompany the delegations to Port Romanov (Murmansk). Kirill was the senior adult Grand Duke after Mikhail Alexandrovich.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 04, 2011, 03:18:45 PM
Yes. He was a senior Grand Duke.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 14, 2012, 05:35:02 AM
Many supporters of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna state that her grandfather Grand Duke Cyril was Nicholas's legal heir after the deaths of his immediate family.  However while I was reading in Grand Duchess Leonida's obituary that Cyril's claims were dismissed by the Supreme Monarchist Council and himself as well as his brothers were barred from the succession after he swore allegiance to the Provisional Government and the Bolsheviks, marched with his marines men wearing a red ribbon and hoisted a red flag over his palace.  Is there such evidence or documents of such if so where could one find it?  According to my chat with Historian Michael Y. Medvedev who wrote the paper the Cyrillist Claims,  he stated that the Emperor never recognized the marriage of his first cousins as legit and came up with a Resolution of 1907 stating he'd never accept it.  However this was never passed as a law or manifesto but left at memorandum stage. How effective would it be?  And if Nicholas barred Cyril from the succession in 1905 when he married against his wishes how could he have been reinducted to the imperial succession after the death of their Uncle Grand Duke Alexei?  There are so many contradictions here...plus its quite disgusting that his family is trying to claim something that may not even belong to them.  It seems to be an ongoing trait from generation after generation they need to give it up. Could some please explain this to me I'am confused.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 14, 2012, 09:00:51 AM
The whole business is extremely complicated!

One of the arguments against Vladimir Kirillovich, though not against Kirill himself, is that the marriage between Kirill and Victoria Melita was invalid in the eyes of the Orthodox Church, which does not permit marriage between first cousins and does not recognise marriages conducted by other churches (the pair married in a Lutheran Church).

Hope that helps.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 14, 2012, 09:09:58 AM
So far that does help. But if Cyril and Ducky married in a Lutheran Church wouldn't that also have barred Cyril from the succession? I mean yes he was Orthodox and Ducky later converted to Orthodox but they were married in Tegernese, Bavaria...I wonder which church?  And thanks Ann.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: rachel5a on January 14, 2012, 12:20:01 PM
Does it matter that she was divorced also?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 14, 2012, 01:06:31 PM
I'm not an expert on the exact Russian position, but the British position would be that neither would automatically bar Kirill from the succession. Under the Act of Settlement 1701 marriage to a Catholic would bar a person from the succession (no case law on marriage in a Catholic church, but here you wouldn't marry in a Catholic church unless one of the parties was a Catholic!). No formal restriction on marriage to a divorcee. However, in my opinion either would give discretion to bar the person from the succession. This is effectively what happened with the Duke of Windsor, who abdicated for himself and any issue in order to marry Wallis Simpson, and Parliament then passed His Majesty's Declaration of Abdication Act to give full legal effect to the abdication.

Hope that helps

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 14, 2012, 07:15:41 PM
It is my view that he was the legitmate  successor according to the Pauline laws, all others being  eliminated. These were indeed extraordinary circumstances and the Romanov succession was not as cut and dried as perhaps some others were.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Belochka on January 15, 2012, 12:11:17 AM
It is my view that he was the legitmate  successor according to the Pauline laws, all others being  eliminated. These were indeed extraordinary circumstances and the Romanov succession was not as cut and dried as perhaps some others were.

All Imperial laws were extinguished when the monarchy collapsed in March 1917 and were replaced by the set of laws enacted by the Provisional Government. The P. G. did its best to eradicate its nation's former ties to the monarchic system of government.

Thus, the imperial Pauline Fundamental Laws were no longer operative (in whole or in part) in the new Russia nor in any foreign jurisdiction (abroad). Consequently, there could never have been a successor who could claim rights to the defunct Romanov throne. 

Kyrill was the first pretender in his family to make a claim that there was a throne to be had.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Sunny on January 15, 2012, 05:30:18 AM
Well - if we choose to follow tsar's Paul laws, which still were the main laws during Nicholas' reing, then Kirill COULDN'T technically be heir. He was married to his first cousin, which is not (as you have said) permitted in the Orthodox Church; moreover, when there still was a throne Nicholas, the head of the state, never recognised the marriage, so for this two reasons Kirill's son COULDN'T be tsarevich.
But as Belochka stated, this laws were no more effective when the Provisional Government took power.
IMHO, it's a problem of choosing - do the living Romanovs want to continue to follow - among them of course - Paul's law? If so, technically, the hereditary line has estinguished when Alexej died. The don't want to because they are not valid anymore? Well, so Kirill should be considered heir because, as Robert pointed out, there was none else left.
Note that even Michail - if he had survived and all - couldn't be heir according to Paul's laws - his marriage was bnever recognized, and was morganatic. His son was not a Romanov, and all.
I have always thought Paul's laws were too restrictive: i mean, one to be heir should have too many necessary requirements to be "ok". It was inevitable that, sooner or later, the dinasty couldn't have provided someone who could fulfill them perfectly. Here, IMHO, also lies the deep of the tragedy of Alexej's illness - beyond Alexej there was, in that precise moment, NONE ELSE who could really be heir fullfilling the requirement's of Paul's laws. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Belochka on January 15, 2012, 06:06:17 AM
Well - if we choose to follow tsar's Paul laws, which still were the main laws during Nicholas' reing, then Kirill COULDN'T technically be heir. He was married to his first cousin, which is not (as you have said) permitted in the Orthodox Church; moreover, when there still was a throne Nicholas, the head of the state, never recognised the marriage, so for this two reasons Kirill's son COULDN'T be tsarevich.

Tsesarevich Alexei Nikolayevich was the last Heir to the Romanov throne.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 15, 2012, 07:17:26 AM
The Pauline Law contained so many restrictions precisely because Tsar Paul wished to ensure that no one like his mother could ever again claim the throne!

As a constitutional lawyer (albeit a British one), I would argue that the fall of the monarchy did not extinguish the Pauline Law. A formal repeal would be necessary, by a body or office-holder with authority to repeal it. Under English law, an Act of Parliament is not rendered void by long disuse (Attorney General v HRH Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover, House of Lords 1957). I understand that Michael of Roumania has said that he will not declare any of his five daughters to be his heir because the Roumanian succession law can only be altered by a reigning monarch, and there is none.

My personal take is that Kirill himself could be regarded as a legitimate heir, but not his issue.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Belochka on January 15, 2012, 08:51:42 AM
The Pauline Law contained so many restrictions precisely because Tsar Paul wished to ensure that no one like his mother could ever again claim the throne!

In 1886, Alexander III amended certain sections of the Fundamental Laws that further restricted its operation with regard to "succession".

As a constitutional lawyer (albeit a British one), I would argue that the fall of the monarchy did not extinguish the Pauline Law. A formal repeal would be necessary, by a body or office-holder with authority to repeal it. Under English law, an Act of Parliament is not rendered void by long disuse (Attorney General v HRH Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover, House of Lords 1957).

Given the absence of revolutions in Britain, the British system of lawmaking is a continous process. Laws are indeed enacted and can be repealed by the sitting government of the day.

However, after the Provisional Government came to life in Russia following the February Revolution, it did not preserve the statutes related to "imperial succession". The new government was after all a republic. All legal ties to the former monarchy were progressively severed. When the Soviets grabbed power from the Provisional Government later that same year, they made a clean break with their legal past.

Consequently, Kirill's claim in the later part of the 1920's can only be described as self-indulgent.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Forum Admin on January 15, 2012, 09:23:08 AM
Actually, you are all missing the most important piece of the reason why Kyrill could never take the throne.  Maria Pavlovna senior was NOT Pravaslavnoya (Orthodox) when her sons were born.  The Laws of Succession are clear. The Heir MUST BE BORN TO AN ORTHODOX MOTHER.  Her 1905 later conversion can not retroactively cure that defect. Tchtcheglovitov was most clear (as Minister of Justice) and wrote his determination of this to both Nicholas II and Maria Pavlovna.  (See Spiridovitch "Les Derniers Annees...").  Because, however, they were still the grandsons of an Emperor they were still entitled to all the other rank and privileges of Grand Dukes.  People often confuse the retention of the privileges as Grandsons of an Emperor as some sort of acknowledgment of their place in the Succession.

This is the truly fatal reason why the Vladimirs have no legitimate claims. Period.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 15, 2012, 10:49:23 AM
I never said these claims were legitimate, only to  certain minds living in a fantasy. AS Belotchka pointed out- there was no throne to claim. If anything, all this talk by Cyril  and company is purely hypothetical.
 There is, though, another claim- that of head of the house.  Which seemed to be rejected by all concerned.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: TimM on January 15, 2012, 06:07:47 PM
One has to wonder that, should Russia ever choose to bring back the Monarchy (albeit in a British like Constitutional form), who would be picked?  Since Nicholas II had no direct descendants, that does muddy the waters somewhat.  I mean should Germany, for example, do this, they'd probably select the first born living descendant of Wilhelm II, which would be much easier.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 15, 2012, 06:14:00 PM
In the case of Russia, it would not need be a Romanov.   The people, or whatever represents them,  would choose, just as in  1613. This is purely fantasy, as any such restoration would be highly unlikely.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Belochka on January 15, 2012, 06:41:21 PM
In the case of Russia, it would not need be a Romanov.   The people, or whatever represents them,  would choose, just as in  1613. This is purely fantasy, as any such restoration would be highly unlikely.

I agree with you Robert.

Russia's political development does not involve a return to its monarchic past.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Belochka on January 15, 2012, 07:42:41 PM
Actually, you are all missing the most important piece of the reason why Kyrill could never take the throne.  Maria Pavlovna senior was NOT Pravaslavnoya (Orthodox) when her sons were born.  The Laws of Succession are clear. The Heir MUST BE BORN TO AN ORTHODOX MOTHER.  

Due to the lateness of the hour in Australia I was unable to provide background information concerning the Vladimirovich claim.

Alexander II left a sealed envelope in his study - to be opened after his death - that contained a signed document (and countersigned by Grand Dukes Alexander and Vladimir), which determined the order of succession to the Russian Throne. Granting his approval to the forthcoming marriage, Alexander II specified that Duchess Mariya was not compelled to convert away from her Lutheran faith.  However, there were four conditions that had to be observed regarding the marriage, the first two of which are most relevant to this forum discussion.

Alexander II specified that should Vladimir be in the position to become the Heir to the Throne, according to Statute 142 of The Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire (1797), he:

 “…could receive the right of succession to the Throne if his wife receives orthodox confession.” But if his wife “during the transfer to him of the rights of succession had not received orthodox confession, then he had … to voluntarily abdicate his aforesaid right”.  [Information to be published by M. Nelipa, 2012].

Shortly before his death in 1894, Alexander III signed a special Ukaz that would protect his son’s right of succession, in which it was decreed that the consort of the Sovereign had to be orthodox upon marriage. This deliberate measure prevented Mariya Pavlovna’s eldest son, Kyril Vladimirovich from taking hold of the Imperial Crown. (For further details see Nelipa @ p 151)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: RealAnastasia on January 15, 2012, 10:20:34 PM
In the case of Russia, it would not need be a Romanov.   The people, or whatever represents them,  would choose, just as in  1613. This is purely fantasy, as any such restoration would be highly unlikely.

I agree with you Robert.

Russia's political development does not involve a return to its monarchic past.

Well...In fact I can't said what Russia's future will bring, since I'm not a fortune-teller. I think we must let speak RUSSIAN people by themselves about what they want and what they don't want. We are NOT Russian masters. Russian people is the master of their own destiny. Let future speak by itself. We'll know in some years what could happen.

RealAnastasia.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 16, 2012, 03:36:27 AM
'Alexander II left a sealed envelope in his study - to be opened after his death - that contained a signed document (and countersigned by Grand Dukes Alexander and Vladimir), which determined the order of succession to the Russian Throne. Granting his approval to the forthcoming marriage, Alexander II specified that Duchess Mariya was not compelled to convert away from her Lutheran faith.  However, there were four conditions that had to be observed regarding the marriage, the first two of which are most relevant to this forum discussion.'

Does this document still exist?

Ann

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 16, 2012, 05:16:26 AM
I was just about to ask the same question.....does that document still exist? Maybe that can once and for all blow Maria Vladimirovna out the water with her ridiculous claims.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2012, 03:51:43 PM
Yes. If the document exists, it would be a game changer to all those who supported Maria's claims (including a royal book publisher).  :D
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 16, 2012, 05:08:31 PM
it has to be in existence most likely the State Archives but it has to be a definite that it exists.  If this is brought to light I'd love to see the look on her face lol...btw her son is a Hohenzollern..he is in no way a Romanov.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 16, 2012, 05:32:57 PM
Well, neither are the Romanovs, for that matter.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 16, 2012, 07:16:42 PM
true but Patrilinealy he belongs to the House of Hohenzollern not Romanov....Apparently the Vladimir's know the rules but want to bend it for their own purposes which violates the law anyway. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Belochka on January 16, 2012, 07:30:12 PM
'Alexander II left a sealed envelope in his study - to be opened after his death - that contained a signed document (and countersigned by Grand Dukes Alexander and Vladimir), which determined the order of succession to the Russian Throne. Granting his approval to the forthcoming marriage, Alexander II specified that Duchess Mariya was not compelled to convert away from her Lutheran faith.  However, there were four conditions that had to be observed regarding the marriage, the first two of which are most relevant to this forum discussion.'

Does this document still exist?

Yes, this document is preserved in the Russian State Historical Archive (RGIA) in St. Petersburg.

Margarita
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 16, 2012, 07:33:15 PM
What is the name of the document? Just curious...it has to have a title.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 17, 2012, 09:33:40 AM
I think that settles the claim of the Vladimir line claim once and for all. Even Maria cannot fight Romanov family law since her whole claim was based upon it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 18, 2012, 07:21:02 AM
She has her great-great-grandfather to thank for that....looks as if she hasn't really studied the laws of the Imperial house.  What I would like to know what the name of the document is? 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: TimM on January 18, 2012, 11:01:50 AM
So if they are out of the running, I wonder who would be picked, assuming it ever happens at all.  I would like to think it will, it would be the final repudiation of the 20th Century.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 18, 2012, 11:45:56 AM
Frederick Forsyth's book 'Icon', which came out in the 1990s, suggested Prince Michael of Kent!

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2012, 03:26:15 PM
Realistically, He (Prince Michael of Kent) is not that far off. He did built up many bridges in Russia and have many contacts there. They knew him well there (His Russian was pretty good). Also his resemblance to Tsar Nicholas II (his grandmother's cousin) helps too.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Hector on January 18, 2012, 04:10:23 PM
I was more wondering why Nicholas II let Cyril and Victoria Melita back into Russia during World War I? I read somewhere Cyril was let back in because of the succession, but why not just forget about Cyril since Nicholas II had Cyril's younger brothers or baring them (it was somebody to do with their mother being a Lutheran, right?), he had Grand Duke Dmitri Pavlovich (who didn't get exiled until 1916, right?).


Nicholas didn't need to make Boris third-in-line after he removed Kirill from the succession. That was automatic. In just the same way, when Savannah Phillips, the most recent British royal infant, was born, she went into the succession automatically, immediately behind her father and in front of her Aunt Zara, without any formal declarations.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: TimM on January 18, 2012, 04:37:02 PM
Well, then, maybe that's the guy they should pick.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 18, 2012, 04:38:09 PM
Even so I  doubt Prince Michael will become Czar, he cannot inherit the throne either for he's descended from a Senior Grand Duke in the female line and his shared great-grandmother along with Maria Vladimirovna the Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna nee Duchess of Mecklenburg-Strelitz was not a member of the ROC until 1908.  So Mikey is inelligible. So what if he resembles the last Czar that makes no difference for he isn't him/
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2012, 05:11:20 PM
I think Nicholas did not want to punish Kyril too much as he is still a Romanov and furthermore married a granddaughter of a Tsar (Alexander II). It would be easier to keep the peace in the family. It was not until later that even Paul & Misha was forgiven together with their divorced non-royal wives.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 18, 2012, 05:14:43 PM
I think therefore one of the descendants of Sandro & Xenia would satisfy the Church rules since they were both born of Orthodox parents.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 18, 2012, 06:19:55 PM
Could be like Prince Andrew Andreevich who lives in Inverness, California.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 19, 2012, 05:56:43 PM
The eldest great grandson of Sandro & Xenia ? If his wife became Orthodox before the wedding, he is eligible. Tsar Alexander III once said that he actually prefer Grand Dukes to marry commoners who are Orthodox than Royals who are not and will not convert.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 19, 2012, 08:28:20 PM
Well he is the surviving grandson from Sandro and Xenia's eldest son...but he's married three times. I dont know if his wife ever converted to Orthodoxy.  Or any of the other wives before him. We know Prince Michael of Kent is out of the question for he is a Protestant born royal and not Orthodox.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 20, 2012, 02:16:07 AM
Frederick Forsyth's book is a good read, but I'm not sure the idea is meant to be taken too seriously!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 20, 2012, 10:09:25 AM
Yes. But he did built up enough good will in Russia and was more in tune with the general Romanov family than Maria ever did. I do cringe when I think with so many male Romanovs living that they try to foster a Hohenzollern to rule in Russia...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 20, 2012, 10:21:32 AM
I do cringe when I think with so many male Romanovs living that they try to foster a Hohenzollern to rule in Russia...

Don't forget that their family also started to rule by fostering...

Real Romanovs died out with Empress Elizabeth who did foster a Holstein-Gottorp Prince to rule in Russia...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 20, 2012, 10:55:10 AM
There are no true Romanovs I can agree with that but Prince Georgiy belongs to the Hohenzollern household he has nothing to do with the Romanovs.  By law his mother was married to a German prince and he was born a German prince.   He has nothing to do with the Romanovs as his mother, grandfather, and great-grandfather had no claims to the throne.....I wish Margarita would have revealed the name of the document she mentioned that wasn't to be opened until after Alexander II's death and the other document Alexander III proposed to protect his son's succession rights and the title of her book she wrote it in.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 20, 2012, 01:17:27 PM
The Grand Duchess Marie [as she prefers to be caalled] is a very well respected and indeed liked in certain religious circles in Russia. Sh is very involved in the  Church, especially with charitable  programmes. And, she is accepted by the Putin administration as well as the Patriarch.
 Having said that, her so-called "claims" are a a conundrum. She is  "officially"  the "Curiatrix" of a nonexistent throne. And, she claims to be head of a non accepting family.
 Even the  "Roamnov" family association  makes  no claims to a throne that does not exist. It is just a family association much like any other.
 All this nonsense about "legitimate" claimants is just that, rubbish.
  To be pedantic, however, considering Romanov precedent,  Marie's son,. Georgi, is just as legitimate as any, despite his  Hohenzollern  heritage.  His father converted to Orthodoxy, after all  and was granted Imperial titles by Marie's father. For whatever that is worth.
 As has been mentioned, all these ancien rules are not in force. They are obsolete and  no longer valid. Stupid, pretentious vanity.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 20, 2012, 06:51:18 PM
Maria Vladimirovna has no rights to the throne and in 1992 she declared herself Head of the Imperial House in technicality she is not.  She and the members of her family have no claims to the empty throne and her son is a Hohenzollern his father converting to orthodoxy was completely useless as she and no one in her line had rights to the throne. She is NOT a grand duchess, the ukase written by Tsar Alexander III in 1885-1886 strictly states that the titles Grand Duke/Grand Duchess are titles strictly for sons and daughters and grandsons and granddaughters of an emperor, she was neither and Cyril's succession rights were lost when he betrayed the Czar.  It doesn't matter who later on converted to ROC....from what I hear Maria Vladimirovna's parents were not even married in the ROC but in the SOC, her mother was a noble and not a royal which was another violation of the law.  Her great-grandmother did not convert to orthodoxy until years later by then it was too late for she already had her children and heirs to the throne must be born to Orthodox mothers...plus the documents Margarita mentioned that are on file....you can say she has rights all you want but in reality she does not and her son does not belong to the Romanov dynasty.....plus the Russian government does not really acknowledge her as the Head of the Imperial House...not necessarily.  Her claims are silly and farcical.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 21, 2012, 12:57:39 PM
I think the last indisputable head of the family was Maria's father. After that there is no bullet proof candidate. The document in the Kremlin further pushes her claim as family rules DO apply and the central part of Maria's claim.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 21, 2012, 01:32:51 PM
Queen Ena, we have no argument here. There is simply no throne to claim, one way or the other.
 However,  the claim "Head of the Family" is even more bizarre, IMO. There is no "head of the family". The is a chosen "Head" of the family association but they are a  long way from Imperial Russia.  They are definitely multi national and  quite diverse in marriages, religions and circumstances. Most simply make no claims to anything.
  IMO, Maria is a good woman, does good things.  But her claims, really are silly.
 I know relatively little about Georgi, as he seems to just show up in the press  in Euro Royal party jaunts. This should be interesting when  it is time to marry him off.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 21, 2012, 02:09:31 PM
The last I heard George was a banker. The best marriage he could make is to member of the Romanov family. That would heal some wounds and built some bridges.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 21, 2012, 04:44:57 PM
Well of course there is no throne but Maria Vladimirovna believes there is one and she's entitled to it..its empty its no one's throne and no one has the right to it. If a monarchy were to ever return to Russia a Czar or Czarina would be chosen by the election of the people like back in 1613 when they chose 16-year-old Michael Romanov.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 21, 2012, 04:59:13 PM
Quite true, Queen Ena.
 I find her claim of "Curiatrix" rather curious. She seems to take no claim for herself but rather holding this phantom for her son.  Odd to say the least, I have never seen this term used elsewhere.
 AS for Georgi himself, h interned or apprenticed at the B of E  [?] but was never a banker. There was talk of him joining a naval academy in St. Petersbug but it never materialised, AFAIK. I have no idea what is in store for him, but he always looks uncomfortable when I see him in pictures. One might think he would "fit in" with his Hohenzollern cousins better.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 21, 2012, 06:24:47 PM
Robert Hall to be honest the title "Curatrix to the throne" only came to life when her grandfather Cyril was claiming headship of the family and rights to the vacant throne in 1924...pre-1924 it never existed.  Her family line is full of pretensions.  But however her son cannot inherit i.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 21, 2012, 08:40:44 PM
Of course not, as there is nothing to inherit.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 21, 2012, 08:49:17 PM
Nope which is why this is all childish Members of the RFA accept the fact that Russia is no longer an Empire and for the fact no one is entitled to the throne, but of course there is debate about who is head of the family, and there is no official head.  So Maria Vladimirovna is just being silly and childish and very very greedy.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 21, 2012, 08:58:06 PM
her side of the family has been trying to seize and claim that throne for well over 100 years...its ridiculous...they and any other claimant are not entitled to it so whats the fuss?  And they say the apple doesn't fall to far from the tree...apparently in Maria Vladimirovna's case that point is proven.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 22, 2012, 06:36:45 AM
so whats the fuss?

By claiming something she always stays in the spotlight and after seeing her with important figures of Russia and by repeating one thing over and over again people generally start to associate her with what she says and than she becomes more important in their eyes which can be easily used to gain more money for her family,son...

I wonder is Georgy entitled to claim monthly 3.000 euros which every member of the Hohenzollern family gets from it's foundation?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 22, 2012, 07:57:53 AM
Of course....I doubt she is concerned about rehabilitating the Czar and his family she is just happy it didnt happen to her family. It seems as if the Russian People are very misinformed about their history,  and Maria Vladimirovna who I believe is well aware of that will use that to her full advantage.  She is more concerned about being in the public.  I dont know how she formed an alliance with the Patriarch Kirill it must be some type of conspiracy going on.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 22, 2012, 12:48:40 PM
Interesting, Marc. I had heard of the Hohenzollern Fund but  did not know the allotment was that much.  That is not quite $50 thousand a year. Not a great deal but it would help him get by- IF he  claimed it. Also, would that compromise his so called "claim"?
 And Marie- she stands by the Patriarch in not accepting all the results and proof  of the remains.  Why, baffles me. This was  the cause, supposedly of her absence at the service of internment in St. P. I do not know, did she show up for the Dowager's reburial ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 22, 2012, 12:57:51 PM
It would be very interesting if George lay claim to that fund, since he rejects being a Hohenzollern and a Romanov instead. It was well when her mother and grandmother could spent his aunt (daughter by Kirby & Leoneda )'s fortune. After she kicked Maria out, the security is gone. In fact, George's father revert back to being part of the Hohenzollern Family, so he was eligible for the family fund.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 22, 2012, 01:26:10 PM
Robert Hall Maria Vladimirovna was present at the Dowager Empress's reburial ceremony...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 22, 2012, 01:51:45 PM
Thank you Queen Ena.  I could have guessed so. After all, that was pretty undeniable, being in the care of the Danish RF for all those years. I have a little book on the funeral somewhere, just can't find it at the moment.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 22, 2012, 04:34:54 PM
Interesting, Marc. I had heard of the Hohenzollern Fund but  did not know the allotment was that much.  That is not quite $50 thousand a year. Not a great deal but it would help him get by- IF he  claimed it.

I didn't know either,but some time ago I was watching some Tv interview with Prince Ferfried von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen where it was said that he receives monthly that amount of money from the Fund due to his membership of the House of Hohenzollern...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 22, 2012, 05:19:11 PM
I would imagine they would have to pay taxes on such income. And Euro taxes are high, it would reduce the value  of what anyone getting it to live on.
 In Georgi's  situation, he would not be the first German Romanov, so I do think that is much of a barrier to him "claim" if he even has one.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 22, 2012, 06:20:23 PM
In Georgi's  situation, he would not be the first German Romanov, so I do think that is much of a barrier to him "claim" if he even has one.

Yes,you are right,his predecessors came from Holstein-Gottorp to rule in Russia due to similar family relations,so I guess that makes it a bit easier for him...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 22, 2012, 10:20:48 PM
There is a difference, there weren't any Romanov at that time anymore. Whereas the Romanov family is alive and well...in numbers.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 23, 2012, 06:33:29 AM
There is a difference, there weren't any Romanov at that time anymore. Whereas the Romanov family is alive and well...in numbers.

But there was a former over throned Emperor and his family who were still alive when Holstein-Gottorps came to the throne,but it is the same case as we speak of now,as the former Emperor's family came in the similar twist and turn way to the throne of Russia and were also German-von Braunschweig-Wolfenbüttel...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 23, 2012, 07:06:04 AM
Marc

You are doubtless speaking of the unfortunate Ivan VI.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2012, 11:10:29 AM
Indeed. He is.  ;)

The fact is that the title of "head of the family" is not applicable to Maria at this point and a major bone of contention between the family. Even if we discard the thing with the non-existent throne of Russia at this time.

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 23, 2012, 01:24:07 PM
Marc

You are doubtless speaking of the unfortunate Ivan VI.

Ann

Yes,the unfortunate Ivan VI and his family as he had 2 more brothers and 2 more sisters...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 23, 2012, 07:32:20 PM
A former poster on this forum by the name of  DmitriAlex7777 I believe stated that pretender Maria Vladimirovna's parents Vladimir Cyrillovich and Leonida Georgievna were married in the Serbian Orthodox Church in Lausanne, Switzerland instead of the Russian Orthodox Church? Is that true? Is there any information that can prove this?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 23, 2012, 08:27:25 PM
Burke's Royal Families of the World  lists them married civil and religious in Lausanne, Switz. 12 & 13 August 1948. Serbian Orthodox would make no difference. Any church in the Orthodox communion would be equally valid.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 24, 2012, 03:50:25 AM
I don't think there is any doubt that Maria Vladimirovna's parents were lawfully married, so she is a member of the Romanov family, but, in my view, not an heir.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 24, 2012, 07:19:23 AM
But the Russian Imperial Houses does not recognize marriages that were not of the Russian Orthodox church that is the law.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on January 24, 2012, 07:38:32 AM
Is this in relation to membership of the family or, more narrowly, for succession purposes?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2012, 08:24:28 AM
There is also the argument that is Leoneda the equal in stature to Vladimir. She belonged to a former reigning house that became part of the aristocracy in Russia. That made her status similar to that of Countess Torby, who belonged to the Royal House of Nassau.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 24, 2012, 04:14:24 PM
For succession purposes Kalafrana the marriage has to be in the Russian Orthodox Church according to the Russian Imperial House Laws.  Back to Cyril and Ducky, the Czar never recognized their marriage not only because they were first cousins, but because the marriage was not in the Russian Orthodox Church and the Czar never consented to it.  So it was deemed illegal.  If it is true that Maria Vladimirovna's parents married in Serbian and not Russian Orthodox her father could not have had succession rights. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 24, 2012, 09:54:08 PM
I think the Tsar later recognized the marriage as legal, but maybe not lawful according to the Orthodox Church rudder. It was spelt out in the "Orthodox Church" which is applicable to not only the Russian Church but ALL Orthodox Churches. I coberted to the Greek Church, so I know the rudder do apply in the Greek Church too...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 24, 2012, 11:45:59 PM
The marriage was valid in the eyes of the Orthodox church.   Whether or not it made a difference to the IF rules of succession is  irrelevant. Those rules no longer exist and most members of the family now would be disqualified in any case.
 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on January 25, 2012, 08:54:50 AM
Like I said Robert Hall no one is qualified for the throne and even Prince Nicholas stated that no one is elligible today for the throne, so many ppl after the revolution married unequally ang against the rules.  So Maria Vladimirovna has no rights either but she strongly believes she does.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on January 25, 2012, 10:37:58 AM
We are saying the same thing Queen Ena.  I simply do not understand why GD Maria continues with this pretension. Perhaps, later on, when Prince Georgi  plays the part, he may just drop the whole thing.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: TimM on January 25, 2012, 11:16:35 AM
Sounds to me that Robert's idea is the best, if they ever do decide to bring back the tsar, they would be best to do what they did in 1613 and start fresh.  As I said, this hypothetical tsar would most likely be a Constitutional Monarch, and thus the old ways would not apply.  They would basically reboot the whole system.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 25, 2012, 01:27:39 PM
I think the start afresh approach is the best as far as the non-existent throne is concern. Maybe they will elect a Galitzine this time instead of a Romanov. But there is still the question as who is the head of the Romanov Family ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 19, 2012, 12:42:29 PM
Well - if we choose to follow tsar's Paul laws, which still were the main laws during Nicholas' reign, then Kirill COULDN'T technically be heir. He was married to his first cousin, which is not (as you have said) permitted in the Orthodox Church; moreover, when there still was a throne Nicholas, the head of the state, never recognised the marriage, so for this two reasons Kirill's son COULDN'T be tsarevich.
But as Belochka stated, this laws were no more effective when the Provisional Government took power.
IMHO, it's a problem of choosing - do the living Romanovs want to continue to follow - among them of course - Paul's law? If so, technically, the hereditary line has extinguished when Alexej died. The don't want to because they are not valid anymore? Well, so Kirill should be considered heir because, as Robert pointed out, there was none else left.
Note that even Michail - if he had survived and all - couldn't be heir according to Paul's laws - his marriage was never recognized, and was morganatic. His son was not a Romanov, and all.
I have always thought Paul's laws were too restrictive: i mean, one to be heir should have too many necessary requirements to be "ok". It was inevitable that, sooner or later, the dynasty couldn't have provided someone who could fulfill them perfectly. Here, IMHO, also lies the deep of the tragedy of Alexej's illness - beyond Alexej there was, in that precise moment, NONE ELSE who could really be heir fullfilling the requirement's of Paul's laws.  

This is a very complex legal matter. However, assuming we could get past the arguments about the Fundamental Law of the Russian Empire, my first point is regarding the heir Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich (1878 - 1918). The Fundamental Law is very clear about the exclusion of dynasts, and for good reason, Grand Duke (later Emperor) Paul Petrovich spent a good part of his life worried that his mother would exclude him. So, future emperors could not simply remove inconvenient heirs at their whim. Which makes the matter of MA so interesting.

Michael was the son of an Emperor and was never excluded from the succession by any law or act that I know of. From the death of his older brother George in 1899 until the birth of his nephew the Tsesarevich Alexei in 1904, Michael was the heir to the throne. From Alexis' birth until Michael's own death which preceded AN's death, he remained second in line for the succession. Perhaps others are confusing the UK system whereby an heir's marriage to a Catholic (but not a Buddhist or a Jew) excludes them from the line to their throne. This was not true in Imperial Russia.

Thus was Nicholas II's removal of his son from the succession upon his own abdication illegal. Michael knew this as indeed did the jurists he consulted about the issue, which is why he didn't and couldn't abdicate himself. On Nabakov's advice, he issued a Manifesto ceding power to the Provisional Government and the Constituent Assembly. Had Michael succeeded at some earlier point to the Imperial throne upon the deaths of both his brother and nephew, it would have been a sticky wicket. His son was never a dynast and his wife a morganatic spouse. Very sticky indeed, but he would still, according to the Law, have been the legitimate successor according to the Fundamental Law.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: LisaDavidson on February 19, 2012, 02:09:19 PM
Part II regarding the succession and Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich: With the same assumption as with my previous post on this thread, here are the principal objections to Kirill:

1. His mother was not Orthodox, therefore, all of their children were not dynasts.
2. His marriage was invalid, not recognized by the Emperor, and cousins could not marry cousins.
3. He declared allegiance to the Provisional Government before the Emperor abdicated.

Now, here is the refutation according to the Fundamental Law:

1. The Grand Duke of Mecklenburg Schwerin would never have permitted his daughter Marie to marry morganatically, which is what her marriage to Vladimir would have been had this been true. There was a general understanding between him and the Emperor Alexander II that Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna would convert to Orthodoxy if and when her husband or children came closer to the throne, which is precisely what she did after the death of her brother in law Alexis in 1908. At that time, the succession would have been: Alexei N, Michael A., Vladimir A., Kirill V. Vladimir, Marie Pav's husband, died months later, and Kirill was quickly third in line. Also it should be noted that Marie Pavlovna herself was a Romanov descendant, being a great grand-daughter (as was Elizabeth of Saxe-Altenburg, KR's wife) of Grand Duchess Elena Pavlovna. IOW, Vladimir and Miechen were also cousins.

2. Nicholas illegally stripped Kirill of his grand ducal title upon his marriage to Ducky. In protest, GD Vladimir resigned all of his posts. From 1905 through 1909, an argument (although not a good one) could have been made that the marriage was invalid because the Emperor did not approve it. However, they married in an Orthodox Church, and so it was religiously valid. One cannot selectively use religious arguments when they suit and throw them away when they do not. In any event, the Emperor later recognized this marriage and Ducky was henceforth known as Grand Duchess Victoria Feodorovna. There was no legal reason to say the marriage was unequal as VF was a granddaughter of both Queen Victoria and Alexander II. As to cousins, that is the most ridiculous of all the objections. The Orthodox Church does not recognize degrees of cousinship. Vladimir and Marie Pav were cousins, Nicholas and Alexandra were cousins, so the objection to Kirill and Ducky as cousins holds no water.

3. This objection has no basis in the Fundamental Law.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 22, 2012, 03:28:19 PM
1. According to the document in Russia. Alexander II evidently did not think so.

2. According to the laws of the Orthodox Church, first cousins are not allowed to marry. That is church law. I studied Eastern Orthodoxy for 2 years before joining the Greek Orthodox Church so I know that is the case. It is found in a document called the Rudder. It is the same law that forbid Ducky's sister Baby Bee to marry Misha (Grand Duke Michael of Russia), and Nicholas told his Aunt Marie (Duchess of Coburg and mother of Ducky & Bee) that nothing can be done about it. So strictly speaking according to church law the marriage "is illegal". In fact the couple had problems finding a priest to marry them. If one thinks Edward VIII's marriage to Wallis Warfield Spencer Simpson is problematic, so is the one between Cyrill & Ducky. Interestingly that the Orthodox Church allows divorces, so Ducky's first marriage wasn't a problem as much as her close blood relationship with Cyrill.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Brassov on February 23, 2012, 05:18:46 AM
After taking all the facts and opinions into consideration, one thing is clear. In the unlikely event of the Russians ever deciding to reinstate the monarchy, they are going to have a massive problem finding anyone if they decide to invoke the traditional Russian Imperial House Laws or the Orthodox Church laws. There is just nobody suitable at all, it would appear.
An endless subject to argue about. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 23, 2012, 04:00:51 PM
I don't think Putin's Russia is too keen on having a Tsar again. As for the head of the family, the oldest person with the most senior postion and have the approval of the whole family should be elected head of the Romanov family.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 05, 2012, 04:39:39 PM
Well I found out that Leonida Georgievna and Vladimir Cyrillovich were married at the church of st. gerasimos in lausanne, switzerland...for all I know its an orthodox church but do not know which? 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on March 06, 2012, 12:08:17 AM
Well I found out that Leonida Georgievna and Vladimir Cyrillovich were married at the church of st. gerasimos in lausanne, switzerland...for all I know its an orthodox church but do not know which? 

That's Greek Orthodox.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 06, 2012, 09:41:42 AM
Thanks Svetabel
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 06, 2012, 01:21:20 PM
Well...the problem with that couple is that whether it was an equal marriage or not. She was not popular with the royalist. In fact, Vladimir's aunt Bee (Infanta Beatrice of Borbon-Orleans) told her nephew that if he married that lady she will not receive him again. She never did.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: LisaDavidson on March 07, 2012, 01:05:44 AM
But that has nothing to do with the Fundamental Law of the Russian Empire. That's a social issue who receives whom.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 07, 2012, 02:58:07 PM
I think was Leonida unequal birth to Kyril (which was arguable) that disqualify her and her offspring from the family law. Baby Bee's reason for not receiving Leonida was due to her alleged bad reputation in Spain.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 07, 2012, 11:17:08 PM
Eric where do you find this stuff? BTW what was her bad reputation in Spain?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 08, 2012, 03:57:06 PM
This came from a Spanish writer who have information on Baby Bee & her family. He also gave information on the first Spanish biography on her. Both Leonida and her brother were involved with shady people in Spain.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 09, 2012, 06:44:59 AM
hmm interesting I wonder what the name of this biography is....It might make an interesting read.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 10, 2012, 12:32:13 PM
Yes. I have a copy of it and the author is a woman name Ana something. She had help from the descendents of Baby Bee and other British and Spanish Royal authors. It has quite a few tidbits on Ducky, Kyrill and Vladimir.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on March 10, 2012, 04:23:50 PM
When you get her full name could you post it on here Eric? I would love to get it...btw does anyone know where to find opposing articles on today's claimant Maria Vladimirovna...what I mean by opposing articles of others who are against her claims?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 10, 2012, 04:27:49 PM
No problem. As long as you can read Spanish. I got someone to translate a bit for me.  :)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: darius on March 11, 2012, 07:14:46 AM
Ana de Sagrera.  Book is called Ena y Bea.  "En defensa de una amistad"
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 11, 2012, 11:00:52 AM
That is the one. Thanks ! :-)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 04, 2012, 12:18:05 PM
Why was Victoria Melita so shocked that Kirill betrayed her?
Who was it? Man or woman? Any name mentioned?
Most men are unfaithful, especially russian Grand Dukes..
I can't understand that VM made her last years so much misery because of that.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 04, 2012, 05:01:37 PM
It was a man...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on July 05, 2012, 06:41:19 AM
It was a man...

And your source of this statement?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 05, 2012, 07:03:47 AM
That's what I thought.
A Lady XY would not get this destructive reaction from MV.
With exception of a close family member or friend. (I had her sister Sandra in mind)

It's curious that both of MV's husbands ended in bed with men...
That's just embarrassing for her.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Stardust on July 05, 2012, 07:31:12 AM
That's Shocking!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 05, 2012, 10:09:06 AM
The source was "Fatal Passion" the only full length biography on Ducky. However I do got other independent sources confirming that it was a man. It does make sense as her argument for leaving Ernie was that he was gay and did not love her (as she wanted to be loved). Her hard fought battle end up with her husband with a man. That would truly kill her. Ducky's pride would not let her forgive the her husband, but she also couldn't forgive herself for making that mistake. As Missy wrote "She was the most unforgiving of us all". No it could not be Sandra since Ducky was the one sister that she respects and fears.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 05, 2012, 10:19:18 AM
I wonder how Ducky got to know it.
KR by example was discreet about his lover(s), Mavra did not now at all..
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on July 05, 2012, 02:59:28 PM
The source was "Fatal Passion" the only full length biography on Ducky. However I do got other independent sources confirming that it was a man.

Actually I don't remember in the "Fatal Passion" a revelation that Kyrill had a male lover. Could you please give us an exact quote?

Independent sources sound great but since you don't name them as always, all that is a speculation.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2012, 11:01:29 AM
Actually it was in John Van Der Kiste's book on Ducky. pg 147. "So virulent was her reaction that some were tempted to speculate that whether history had repeated itsef, and whether he had been subjected to the same weakness or indulgences as her former husband". In Fatal Passion pg 393 "There has been speculation that Kirill was involved in behavior or relationship far more sensational and unorthodox than a simple and saual affair with another woman". The truth of the matter is that they all point to that direction. And even if you say speculation, because it cannot be proven 100 % as the people involved are already dead and the family unwilling to talk about it. The whole scenario does make sense on why Ducky, who was so proud and strong will end up "dying by inches".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on July 06, 2012, 11:48:55 AM
Actually it was in John Van Der Kiste's book on Ducky. pg 147. "So virulent was her reaction that some were tempted to speculate that whether history had repeated itsef, and whether he had been subjected to the same weakness or indulgences as her former husband". In Fatal Passion pg 393 "There has been speculation that Kirill was involved in behavior or relationship far more sensational and unorthodox than a simple and saual affair with another woman". The truth of the matter is that they all point to that direction. And even if you say speculation, because it cannot be proven 100 % as the people involved are already dead and the family unwilling to talk about it. The whole scenario does make sense on why Ducky, who was so proud and strong will end up "dying by inches".

Thanks for the quotes. So the speculation is the main word there, even if "they all point to that direction".
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2012, 03:02:28 PM
Well. I would say that it is most "likely" to be true since if it was something even Ducky herself do not want to acknowledged or face up to. With my information I am happy to say that  it is "a fact that needs to be validated" rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on July 06, 2012, 10:39:55 PM
Well. I would say that it is most "likely" to be true since if it was something even Ducky herself do not want to acknowledged or face up to. With my information I am happy to say that  it is "a fact that needs to be validated" rather than the other way around.

Do 'uncover' your secret sources otherwise your information is not valid and sounds like a speculation. If you dropped 'it was a man' please give the sources. "Fatal Passion" doesn't answer the question.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on July 07, 2012, 09:49:51 AM
So van der Kiste and 'Fatal Passion' report that there was speculation that Kirill's affair was with a man, but make it clear that this was speculation.

Interesting, but inconclusive at best.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2012, 11:47:23 AM
It will not be conclusive because you have to remember that the family is not proud of that and unlikely to make a statement for it. But I have information from sources through researchers of Marie and her sister Bee that reveal that it was a man. However this is strictly off records. One could understand that family did not want to talk about this. In fact if you remember. Ducky swore Missy to secrecy about the whole incident. Yet Ducky's distaste on Ernie's affairs made her effort to couple with him to create a male heir a very unpleasant experience.  Her reaction to Kirill's "affair" was to remove herself from "any physical intimacy"made a good case for that.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 07, 2012, 01:59:15 PM
I've got an barmy idea:

Maybe "the man" was Ernie who wanted to take vengeance upon MV by bedding her husband..

As I said a barmy idea... But not impossible..
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 07, 2012, 02:38:01 PM
It has also been suggested that Kyrill passed a STD on to Victoria. That could drive a wedge into any family. It is just as good and probably more likely as any other speculation.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 07, 2012, 09:24:39 PM
Well..I don't think that would have been the case. For example both Empress Carlotta of Mexico & Archduchess Stephanie of Austria were given STD by their husbands, but that did not deter them from living, not to mention Sisi. who might got it from Franz Josef as well. For Ducky to go to pieces, that would have to be more than that. In fact the number of royals who have STD is not a small one. So Ducky would have seen that coming. I think the violent reaction would more likely be the same one she rejected her first husband.  It went straight to her soul. a rejection as a woman she cannot battle. I sincerely believe she termed it as a personal insult.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Stardust on July 08, 2012, 08:07:13 AM
I wonder How VM found out.  We know that she caught her first husband in the act.  Did she also find out the same way with Kyrill?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 08, 2012, 10:54:47 PM
Now that is where we get into speculation. For those who observe the two, Ducky was more of the energizer in the couple and actively pursuing ways to recover her position. It was she who supported Hitler by giving him her jewels and photographed with him (not Kirill) and who threatened to kill Dmitri if he has any designs for the vacant throne. So it would safe to say that she has eyes and ears everywhere. Someone who is more passive like Kirill cannot hope to hide his secrets from Ducky for long. It is did turn out that way. Once Ducky died, Kirill did not have the energy to continue the ambition for much longer before joining his wife to the grave. As for the "other party" in the affair, it would be a mystery unless there are any diaries or letters left behind (which I doubt). The whole thing is something that nobody in the family will want to bring up again. I doubt very much any other people (including their children) knew about the details.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on July 09, 2012, 02:49:42 AM
I wonder How VM found out.  We know that she caught her first husband in the act.  Did she also find out the same way with Kyrill?

And indeed, I don't see how we can "know that she caught her first husband in the act" for certain.  The only evidence is third hand - the biographer (of Marie of Romania) Terence Elsberry's record of the remarks made by "a niece" of Victoria Melita (later identified by John Wimbles as Ileana of Romania) that "No boy was safe......from the stable hands to the kitchen help.  He slept quite openly with them all."  I very much doubt that Ernst Ludwig did it in the streets and frightened the horses - presumably what was meant was that he made no secret of his inclinations.  But nevertheless in that respect I would imagine VM would have been much more on the alert to any potential homosexual proclivities on Kyrill's part - which may have blinded her to indications of hetrosexual infidelity on Kyrill's side.  VM's stance with regard to her first marriage was much more uncompromising than biographers have generally credited her with, given her remarks to the Grand Duke Serge after the divorce that "As to Kyrill's attachment to me, Ernie was by no means ignorant of it as we talked upon this subject together and I have hidden nothing from him..........if I had only thought of my own future happiness instead of what I considered right I would certainly not have left Darmstadt, a more lovely home to me than I shall ever find again.........I will not enter into details about some propositions Ernie made to me which would have assured a life of perfect happiness and care to me.....but which my dignity and self-respect could never have allowed me to accept though you can well imagine the depths of temptation I went through and what it cost me to refuse.” (quoted in John Wimbles’ article ‘An enduring mystery – the divorce of Ernie and Ducky’ in Royalty Digest Quarterly 2 2007).  This strongly suggests that EL had suggested some form of open arrangement in which both partners could please themselves in private whilst maintaining a public marriage.  To the generations for which public scandal was anathema, it was indeed an extraordinary step to decline such an arrangement, since she took most of the moral blame for the divorce and a remarriage to Kyrill was by no means straightforward or certain.  Although biographers such as Hannah Pakula suggest that it was unconvincing that VM would expect a Russian Grand Duke to hold to his marriage vows, and that something much more heinous than simple unfaithfulness motivated VM in her hostility towards Kyrill, I wonder whether that is exactly what VM did – especially since there appears no evidence that Kyrill had overt affairs after his marriage.  It is possible that VM genuinely believed he had been faithful to her and her shock at the knowledge that yet another husband had let her down caused her to react in exactly the same way as she had with her first husband – no compromises, cut the fellow off at the knees.  Oh well, all speculation – I agree with Eric it’s unlikely we’ll ever know for sure.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on July 09, 2012, 06:53:46 AM
Countess Kate

Can you just confirm that Wimbles is quoting a letter from Victoria Melita to Serge - it sounds like it but it's not entirely clear. This would have had to be written before Serge's death in January 1905, and so before VM's marriage to Kirill, which took place on 8 October 1905. Interesting that VM should treat Serge as a confidant.

I think your scenario is as plausible as the possibility that Kirill's affair was with a man. Indeed, unless a tranche of letters between Kirill and the object of his affections appears, we are unlikely ever to know.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on July 09, 2012, 08:12:04 AM
Countess Kate
Can you just confirm that Wimbles is quoting a letter from Victoria Melita to Serge - it sounds like it but it's not entirely clear. This would have had to be written before Serge's death in January 1905, and so before VM's marriage to Kirill, which took place on 8 October 1905. Interesting that VM should treat Serge as a confidant.
I think your scenario is as plausible as the possibility that Kirill's affair was with a man. Indeed, unless a tranche of letters between Kirill and the object of his affections appears, we are unlikely ever to know.
Ann

John Wimbles states in his article that the letter was written to Grand Duke Serge by Victoria Melita in March 1902.  Apparently Serge had intimated to VM's mother concerning the stories going around that VM had sought a divorce with Kyrill's encouragement, so she wasn't necessarily treating Serge as a confident, but rather, vindicating her actions to her uncle (and former brother-in-law - my goodness these relationships were complicated). VM furthermore wrote in the letter that "I cannot believe that Ernie, who is the only person in this world who knows the truth, can have left you with this impression" - something Serge would have been in a good position to ascertain.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 09, 2012, 01:28:16 PM
Countess Kate,

I talked to John Wimbles and he wasn't too happy with that article because it was censored, the truth was shielded and article was edited and he told me it doesn't make sense. I went to the Darmstadt achieves and they did not bat an eye on the theory that Ernie was gay, and he may have affairs with his "artistic" circles. When Ernie turned up sick after the trip to England, Ducky was kept out of the sick room (she had hoped to nurse Ernie herself - revealed in a letter to Missy). By the time he was well, Ducky noticed the "mask of civility" was back on. Ducky ended the letter saying the whole situation was "hopeless". So Kirill's weakness was a magnet to the more stronger personality of Ducky as it brought out the strong maternal instincts that she was capable. Which explains why Ducky could never be close to Miechen, one woman is enough in a man's life. The exact same senario happened in the case of Nicky & Alicky. In Kirill, Ducky fought hard for the "vacant" throne and did everything possible to achieve that. The fact that Kirill's fall hit Ducky so hard illustrates how much he meant to her from her divorce, remarriage, revolution, escape and rebuilding a life together. The fact that it was a man did bring back memories of her life with Ernie. Ernie's generous monetary offer to live an independent life with a lover would have been tempting to anybody but Ducky, who scoff at such hypocrisy. Living a lie was not her style at all. I do wonder the stress of living with her husband and act as if nothing was wrong would have been the main factor to her demise. Fate did played as cruel trick on her. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on July 09, 2012, 02:42:22 PM
Thanks for this interesting insight into John Wimbles' article, and indeed his account of the actual process of the divorce is rather unclear.  Did he give any indication of what exactly had been excised, and why? 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 09, 2012, 03:00:40 PM
The edited article made the reason a bit obsure. The only thing I could think of maybe Ernie & his "gay circle". But the archives in Darmstadt had been quite open about that. Judging from the letters between Ducky & Missy, it seems like their inability to connect was the real reason for the breakdown of the marriage. The gay thing may have played a role, but one could see that since Ducky had stayed with Ernie for a long time, she would not have been unaware of it and made it known had that had been the deal breaker. It was the lie that Ducky cannot stomach any longer as there is no marriage to talk about. The sham marriage deal with Ernie would have been taken up had she been less insistent on truth in black and white. The fact that VMH was so understanding in her words on the subject of the divorce suggested that Ducky may have confided in her. Also Alicky did not came down hard on Ducky for her divorce than to her remarriage to Kirill. Which was a violation of the Orthodox Church rules stated in a document called "the rudder". It was the same rules that bar Ducky's sister Beatrice from marrying Misha, Nicky's own brother. Alicky had turned very devout and never did forgave Ducky for her violation and disobedience to the Tsar's ruling. That was the real reason for the cooling off between the cousins.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marie Valerie on July 11, 2012, 04:53:46 PM
(I have posted this also in the Hohenzollern Section, but got no answers, so here a new try.)

Does anyone know if Grand Duchess Kira was allowed to stay orthodox after her wedding to Louis Ferdinand?

Elisabeth of Bavaria was a katholic and must agree to change her religion before her wedding to king Friedrich Wilhelm IV. of Prussia (she did this after 7 years of marriage, when she felt it was right for her).
King Friedrich Wilhelm III. thought a queen of prussia must be from the same religion like the majority of her subjects, was this still in use when LF and Kira married?
Or was it abolished after the lose of crown and power?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 11, 2012, 06:42:26 PM
Their first ceremony (the one not attended by Kaiser Wilhelm II) was in the Orthodox religion, wasn't it? With the 2nd ceremony, in Doorn, being a Protestant one?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 11, 2012, 06:57:20 PM
Yes, civil and Orthodox ceremonies were  held in Paris I think. The German royals houses, except for the Catholic ones, were not all that strict about forcing conversions  upon marriage. They had been providing princess to the Romanov's for centuries and vice verse.
 I would have to search out the obit for her, but I think  Kyra had  Orthodox funeral rites. This might indicate that she remained Orthodox throughtout her life.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 11, 2012, 10:43:16 PM
I think she remained at heart an Orthodox Christian. In the Prussian Royal Family, one has more problems with Catholic than orthodox. In fact, Prince Philip was born Orthodox, and he later became a god father to one of his Orthodox nephews. The British law only bars one from succeeding to the throne if married to a Catholic.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on July 14, 2012, 04:03:31 PM
Thanks for this interesting insight into John Wimbles' article, and indeed his account of the actual process of the divorce is rather unclear.  Did he give any indication of what exactly had been excised, and why?  

As far as I recall, it concerns Ernst's involvement in the Krupp scandal on Toarmina, and some quotes - quite well-known now - from James Lees-Milne on Ernst's interest in young boys. Excised because they offended the sensibilities of the RDQ editors, apparently.

I wrote an article around the same time on Ernst's trip to India for the 1902 Durbar - and although EL had long wanted to go to India, John told me he felt that the trip had been very convenient for everyone as it kept him away from erupting scandals in Europe over the collapse of his marriage and the reason for it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 15, 2012, 12:45:26 AM
Thank you Janet for sharing the information. That would mean of course that Ducky was telling the truth about Ernie with the stable boys. According to Greg King, Ernie's brother-in-law Serge also favored young boys and his last victim was none other than his nephew Dmitri. It seems like it runs in the family...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Stardust on July 15, 2012, 12:41:12 PM
Thank you Janet for sharing the information. That would mean of course that Ducky was telling the truth about Ernie with the stable boys. According to Greg King, Ernie's brother-in-law Serge also favored young boys and his last victim was none other than his nephew Dmitri. It seems like it runs in the family...


Eric, Where did you find that information about serge and his nephew Dmitri pavlovich?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 15, 2012, 02:16:32 PM
From "The Court of the Last Tsar"  by Greg King pg. 80.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on July 16, 2012, 04:07:00 AM
The exact words in "The Court of the Last Tsar"  are "there were rumors that his [Serge's] young nephew Dimitri Pavlovich, had fallen victime to his sexual appetite."  The reference for this is "Private information to author" which is not illuminating. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 16, 2012, 10:45:29 AM
I know. But I trust Greg King information. Most likely from the family circle. But it does look plausible since Dmitri did have a trouble sex life from Felix Yussopov to Coco Chanel. That would suggest (not confirm of course) that his entry into sex was anything but ordinary. Also since Felix was very close to Dmitri, and had a great dislike to Serge, that source might lead back to Dmitri. The interest thing is Dmitri did not bond with Serge as his sister did, but more towards Ella. Both Felix and Dmitri remained close to Ella, while Marie did not. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 16, 2012, 01:32:22 PM
Thank you Janet for sharing the information. That would mean of course that Ducky was telling the truth about Ernie with the stable boys. According to Greg King, Ernie's brother-in-law Serge also favored young boys and his last victim was none other than his nephew Dmitri. It seems like it runs in the family...

I don't believe that Grand Duke Serge was gay at all, Western writers don't understand the Orthodoxy religion well enough nor do we know the true nature of Grand Duke Serge and Grand Duchess Ella's marriage, its a possibility that she cant conceive [just like other royal women- like for example -  Infanta Isabella of Spain (daughter of Queen Isabella), Marie Therese of France (daughter of Marie Antoniette and King Louis), Alexandrine of Baden the wife of her uncle the Duke of Coburg, her aunt Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll - the list goes on and those women married young enough to have children!]. just because their childlessness, doesn't mean they never had sexual relations. Grand Duke Serge was VERY religious, and if there was no love between then, I think that Grand Duchess Ella would have never become a Nun, later Saint.

back to topic....
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 16, 2012, 01:37:46 PM
And, the key words in the passage mentioned in King's book is RUMOR, it is cited twice. No fact is involved, just rumors. Anyone can make up stories, it does not take an intellectual.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on July 16, 2012, 02:16:04 PM
Most likely from the family circle.

Not from the family circle, but from emigre circles and from someone whose life's work was late imperial Russian society and had talked to people who knew Serge first-hand.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on July 16, 2012, 02:24:20 PM

I don't believe that Grand Duke Serge was gay at all, Western writers don't understand the Orthodoxy religion well enough nor do we know the true nature of Grand Duke Serge and Grand Duchess Ella's marriage, its a possibility that she cant conceive [just like other royal women- like for example -  Infanta Isabella of Spain (daughter of Queen Isabella), Marie Therese of France (daughter of Marie Antoniette and King Louis), Alexandrine of Baden the wife of her uncle the Duke of Coburg, her aunt Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll - the list goes on and those women married young enough to have children!]. just because their childlessness, doesn't mean they never had sexual relations.

But I know Orthodox writers - including western ones - who believe Serge was gay. Similarly, I know western writers who have suggested that Ella was barren - or Serge was impotent. People's views shouldn't be seen as a mater of where they come from.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 16, 2012, 03:40:33 PM
Exactly ! There is always fire where there is smoke. However I think Serge was much more repressed than his cousin Grand Duke Constantine. He at least had an outlet in both in the dramatic arts and bath houses. Serge was a bigoted Christian who believed in a very narrow road to salvation. I think Kirill's case was even more complicated. He was in the navy for awhile and never heard about having a mistress.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Stardust on July 16, 2012, 06:33:23 PM
 I think Ki rill's case was even more complicated. He was in the navy for awhile and never heard about having a mistress.
[/quote]

That's true.  Unlike his womanizing brothers.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 16, 2012, 11:28:59 PM
Well...I don't think Andrej was a womanizer. He just fell for a more mature and experienced woman. Boris was more the womanizer. He had a romance with Missy, Ducky's elder sister. Kirill was a bit of a cold fish, but Ducky found something she could believe in...or so she thought.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on July 22, 2012, 11:21:20 AM
For once I agree with Eric.

Andrei wasn't a womaniser. He fell for MK when he was 20 and there is no suggestion that he was ever involved with anybody else. They were an item for well over 50 years, even though up to 1918 there was a menage a trois with Sergei Mikhailovich. As soon as Andrei was in a position to marry MK he did, and they stayed together until his death.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 22, 2012, 03:26:46 PM
Thanks.

I think Andrei was a very honorable human being who wanted to do the right thing. He did not abandon his mistress and married her when he had the opportunity. It is interesting to see what attractions Ducky has for Kirill. I think it must be her strength and personality. I found him quite weak as he was sandwiched between his mother & his wife, both strong characters.   
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 03, 2012, 04:39:47 PM
I am not sure where Ducky & Cyril lived when they return to St. Petersburg. Don't think they lived with Marie Paulovna at the Vladimir Palace.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 23, 2012, 06:05:48 PM
Kyrill and Victoria Melita clowning with Nicholas II and the rest:

http://retronaut.com/2012/10/tsar-nicholas-ii-clowning-around-with-friends/

Don't know how accurate this is but some photos are really funny!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2012, 07:09:41 PM
I think some of them are taken in Darmstadt while others are in Denmark.  The ones without Alexandra were from Denmark I believe.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: QueenEna1887 on November 06, 2012, 04:05:39 PM
Does anyone have a wedding photo of Ducky and Cyril's wedding?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2012, 02:00:52 AM
As far as I know. None has yet been published if they ever existed. Very similar to the wedding of her sister Bee.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 08, 2012, 04:25:54 AM
Victoria Melita and Kirill's wedding was a low-key affair. Not quite hole in the corner but pretty near to it (like Mikhail Alexandrovich and Natalie Wulfert). Presumably it was only attended by a few intimates and there weren't any official pictures.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2012, 09:49:34 AM
Indeed. The best we could hope for is that there maybe some private pictures from box Kodak cameras. These might have a chance of existence. But I agree with Ann, no official photos. The first ones came when they were allowed back to Russia and post with the two girls (Kira & Marie).
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: perdita on November 08, 2012, 05:16:39 PM
Exactly ! There is always fire where there is smoke. However I think Serge was much more repressed than his cousin Grand Duke Constantine. He at least had an outlet in both in the dramatic arts and bath houses. Serge was a bigoted Christian who believed in a very narrow road to salvation. I think Kirill's case was even more complicated. He was in the navy for awhile and never heard about having a mistress.

"There is always fire where there is smoke."

Since "smoke" equals "fire" when it comes to second hand gossip THEN it is confirmed that the Empress Alexandra was a German spy, she was Rasputin's lover, Alexis was their son,--and in her zeal she gave each of her daughters to the "mad monk".

i.e.,--Allegations asserted by MILLIONS & multiple "credible" sources pre & post 1918.

Demonstrably, historical figures are guilty of conjecture until proven innocent.

Evidence not required.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: perdita on November 08, 2012, 05:37:20 PM
From "The Court of the Last Tsar"  by Greg King pg. 80.

King replete with "anonymous" sources, a myriad of second hand tell-alls, & hostile (or otherwise) witnesses running the gamut from pre/post revolutionary to one hundred years after the fact is not evidence.

Rumor: "A statement or report not authenticated."
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 08, 2012, 05:42:04 PM
Well...There are some people that believe that Ella's Serge's marriage weren't consummated. Unless you go to Jerusalem and do an autopsy on Ella, it cannot be proven that it was. She might still be a virgin.

Prove has to be on both sides...
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 09, 2012, 05:29:24 AM
Ella may be an Orthodox saint, but I very much doubt that her remains are sufficiently incorrupt for a post-mortem to ascertain whether or not she was a virgin at her death!

The long and the short of it is that we don't know anything conclusive about Serge's sexuality, or Kirill's for that matter. We know about KR's from his diaries, but Serge's diaries do not show anything of that nature, and I don't know whether Kirill was a diarist at all. Given the absence of evidence, it is perfectly possible that Serge and Ella had a sex life together, but one or other was sterile.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 09, 2012, 01:12:52 PM
The point I am making is that it all boils down on who said what or what is believable without forensics to proof otherwise (like in the Anna Anderson case). Kyrill might be a closeted gay in all probability based upon his lack of a mistress before he married Ducky. Most other grand dukes did (including the moral Nicholas II and Sandro). This lack of a woman in his life strangely mirrors that of Ernie. It is not proof but it does begs the question.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 10, 2012, 02:28:58 AM
Nowadays there seems to be a general assumption that everyone is at it like rabbits, or should be.

Maybe Kirill just didn't have much sex drive. Not everybody does.

Simply to illustrate my point, Boris of Bulgaria waited until he was 36 to marry, and I am not aware that he had any mistresses before that. He and Giovanna then had a happy marriage and two children. Maybe he was rather repressed, as the son of the notoriously homosexual Ferdinand, or he preferred the uncomplicated pleasures of shooting and driving trains.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2012, 08:02:27 AM
I think that begs the question especially since Kyrill's brother Boris was a womanizer (Ducky's sister Missy being one of his conquest) and his other brother Andrei had a long relationship with Nicholas II's ballerina mistress. Why not Kyrill ? Also he was on a ship a lot of the time, and lots of seamen had homosexual sex, although not all are gay.

Indeed. With a father like foxy, it would not be a wonder that Boris may have question his own sexuality too. But happily he found out that he was not. Although he still needs to get married and produce an heir.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 10, 2012, 08:48:03 AM
Perhaps Kirill's apparent lack of interest simply stands out because one of his brothers was the womanising Boris, and the other was Andrei, who got involved with Matilde when he was 20, was attached to her thereafter until his death and seems never to have looked at anyone else.

In any case, brothers aren't necessarily alike - my three maternal uncles were very different characters indeed! And we could contrast the womanising Edward VII with Arthur, Duke of Connaught, who married at 29, without, as far as I know, any mistresses before that. He later had a lengthy attachment to Leonie Leslie, but we do not know how far it got (maybe no further than tea and conversation).

As I've said before, we don't know about Kirill and probably never will.

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2012, 02:36:06 PM
Well...As a man I can tell you that it is pretty strange. As science has told us that men thought about sex much more than women. Quite a lot of straight boys had sex with each other growing up call "rites of passage". As we trace Kyrill's growing up and time spent on ship, it is quite possible that he had sex with other men/boys at that time.

Also Kyrill also had a passive nature and let Ducky dominate him. She was the one eager to be empress and the dynamo in the partnership according to those who work with them. In short, Kyrill apparently had no relationship with any woman before Ducky and none after. He was being described as a bit of a "cold fish". All this point to him being possibly a "closeted" gay man. His only slip was the one that wound Ducky to the core. I think Kyrill would be a good case as a closeted gay man. Lot of circumstantial evidence points to that direction. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on November 10, 2012, 03:01:29 PM
Quote
I think Kyrill would be a good case as a closeted gay man. Lot of circumstantial evidence points to that direction.

I must take issue with the use of the word "evidence".  No evidence at all, circumstantial or direct, is available for Kyrill as a closeted gay man.  It is just as possible that he had sex with other men as that he didn't.  Nothing evidential points in that direction.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 10, 2012, 05:46:23 PM
of him not involving with a woman before he met Ducky ? That is strong evidence...in fact very similar to Ernie's case.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 11, 2012, 03:54:17 AM
Eric

You are jumping to conclusions on the assumption that if an unmarried man is not leaping into bed with women he must be leaping into bed with other men!

You say yourself that Kirill was a rather passive individual. Is it not possible that this passivity extended to sex and that he didn't have much love life before he married?

Incidentally, Andrei seems to have been rather passive in his relationship with Matilde. He tolerated being in a menage a trois with Serge Mikhailovich for over 15 years, and then seems to have allowed Matilde to be the driving force in their marriage.

All the information we have about Kirill is circumstantial and capable of more than one interpretation. This is all that I'm saying.

Ann

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 11, 2012, 01:43:16 PM
I am not saying that there is 100% proof. But there is a strong case that he might be. Also Mathilde's son may not been Andrei's. He was rather passive too, unlike his brother Boris and other Romanov cousins and uncles.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 12, 2012, 02:14:16 AM
Eric

I am sinmply saying that we don't know and are unlikely ever to know.

Andrei was indeed rather passive - I've already said that! For what it's worth, I think that Matilde's son looked far more like Andrei than he did SErge Mikhailovich, but without DNA there can be no proof. Doubtless it suited Matilde to keep two Grand Dukes on the hop at the time of his birth (though if she was sleeping with both at the same time she could not have known herself!)

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2012, 11:38:27 AM
But Kyrill was sandwiched between two strong women, Miiechen (his mother) and Ducky (his wife). He never had that kind of adventure and appeared to be repressed. A strong case for being a closeted gay man. Agree never be 100 % sure, but a strong case none-the-less. In the US you can convict a person of murder without a body or murder weapon. Kyrill most certainly had possible motive here.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 12, 2012, 02:22:19 PM
It's VERY hard to convict with a body--usually charges aren't even brought. When they are, and when they are won, it is with a plethora of other physical evidence. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Kyrill was a closeted homosexual--he has strong women in his life and didn't seem to cat around prior to marriage?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Forum Admin on November 12, 2012, 03:08:57 PM
We don't engage is such unsubstantiated speculation in the history threads.  If you want to discuss this further, please take it to "Having Fun" unless there is concrete evidence to support the speculation.

thanks for your cooperation
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Vecchiolarry on November 12, 2012, 03:51:58 PM
Hi,

I cannot understand why anyone would be interested in somebody else's sex life - whatever that life consists of.....
The expression, "Get a Life" was invented just for such overly nosey people, I would guess....

I would prescribe some major charitable work for you - go out and help someone....

Larry
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 12, 2012, 11:35:14 PM
I think that is important in the context of why Ducky took that "betrayal " so hard. I did not create the rumor. Both books on Ducky (Van der Kiste & Sullivan) indicated that it could be a man involved. That is not speculation but almost a "near" confirmation. It was a sad end to the marriage.

I think more should be known about Marie's life. I read she was quite a flirtatious character before and in her marriage.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 13, 2012, 01:21:11 AM
'Both books on Ducky (Van der Kiste & Sullivan) indicated that it could be a man involved. That is not speculation but almost a "near" confirmation.'

To my mind 'could' means no more than 'could'.

Eric

You are quite obsessed with this issue.

Some charitable work would be a good idea. I believe you live in the US. Surely there is plenty of work to be done in the aftermath of Sandy!

Ann
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on November 13, 2012, 01:58:12 AM
Quote
Both books on Ducky (Van der Kiste & Sullivan) indicated that it could be a man involved.

Van de Kiste's biography simply states "Cyril had had an affair with another woman".  I have not been able to discover where in the biography he might have "indicated" that there "could be a man involved".  I have not read the Sullivan biography but as it is generally deemed highly inaccurate and speculative, such material can hardly be a ringing endorsement, far less "near" confirmation. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2012, 02:15:28 AM
I think the best defense is to quote from the Van der kiste book. Pg. 147. "So virulent was her reaction that some were tempted to speculate whether history had repeated itself, and whether he had been subjected to the same weakness or indulgences as her former husband." There it is. I did not add or subtract any words and this comes from the updated version of the book on Ducky. If both biographies saw fit to assert this speculation does that not tell you something ? Ann. Washington DC was attacked but escaped Sandy. That does not give you any excuse to attack me personally. True charity comes from the heart not words.

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: CountessKate on November 13, 2012, 02:44:18 AM
Van der Kiste said it himself - it was speculation.  He put forward no evidence.  It tells me that the biographers as usual repeated unsubstantiated speculation (in Van der Kiste's case, using the opaque "some" as his authorities) to jazz up the extremely few facts at their disposal, none of which pointed in any way whatsoever to the gender of the individual in question. 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Kalafrana on November 13, 2012, 04:23:53 AM
Countess Kate

I agree entirely. We simply have two biographers reporting speculation, and van der Kiste at least makes it clear that it was speculation.


Eric

Clearly my sense of humour does not chime with yours.

Ann

Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Robert_Hall on November 13, 2012, 08:03:35 AM
True charity comes from actions, not platitudes and sentiment.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2012, 09:48:58 AM
How do you know that no actions is taken ? It is no humor that a tragedy had happened and people are killed and homeless.

It is speculation of course, I said likely and not "he did it" with 100 % certainty. I said a good case can be made of it (I still believe in it). I am satisfied that my case that this is an important probability that BOTH authors of biographies on Ducky decided to include in their books. Whether people buy there the theory or not it is up to them. I have presented my case and there it should be left.

More interested to talk about Ducky's eldest daughter Marie.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 13, 2012, 03:15:00 PM
I think the FA made his point clear and we need to move on now.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 13, 2012, 04:19:37 PM
Yes. I am moving to Ducky's eldest daughter Marie. Love to know more about her.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 14, 2012, 08:59:52 AM
I picked up a bunch of postcards on her & her family several months ago. The seller had other copies that they sold (for only about $25/ea tops). They were bought up and some resold on ebay for over $100 some of them--including ones of her with her firstborn and her parents.  I'm glad I got mine when I did. They did the same with some of the cards I'd gotten of Sandra and her family too. The original seller doesn't have the same great stock that they used to--they had a lot on the Hesses and Greek princesses once upon a time. I think the secondary seller snapped up their stock for resale. :(

In some of the photos, Marie K was all dolled up in jewelry but just in a plain old room. It was quite a dichotomy--almost like dress up.

There doesn't seem to be much written about Marie. The bulk of what I've read of her comes from Marlene's book Queen Victoria's Descendants and also Art's book The Grand Duchesses. Neither one was very lengthy. She had no real position--unlike her sister Kira or brother Vladimir both of whom were claimants to the thrones of Germany and Russia respectively. Even her children made more interesting marriages.

She married young, popped out a bunch of children, was widowed and died fairly young. I think there was a story about one or more of her children not being her husband's? I think that was in QVD but I don't have my copy of the book.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2012, 09:03:08 AM
Yes. I got a few nice ones too. I recent purchased one of her and her two boys. very rare.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on November 14, 2012, 09:30:17 AM
I was shocked when I saw them! There were some with her boys, her husband, her parents, individually. I'm glad I got them when I did because those exact images were resold just last week for about 4x as much. I think the original seller didn't understand the rarity of the images and the reseller did.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Janet Ashton on November 25, 2012, 01:03:02 PM
Kyrill might be a closeted gay in all probability based upon his lack of a mistress before he married Ducky.

Kirill wrote in his memoir that he partook of everything the nightlife of Nagasaki had to offer - and he city was notorious as a haunt for western sailors, with all that implies! If he was preoccupied with his cousin Ducky from the age of about 19, it's perfectly possible that he didn't have a long-term mistress as such - but this doesn't mean he had no casual sexual encounters with women, or even a number of less serious girlfriends whose names have been lost.   
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 25, 2012, 09:51:56 PM
Well...Japanese Samurai has very gay undertones and one or more of the Shoguns were gay...Having said that there is nothing to say that he wasn't interested in females. Although Kyrill did not have any serious girl friends for him to remember. If we put it in the timeline with Eddy & Georgie Wales, they were at sea too and they did shared a mistress. It is the absences of even such stories that make people think. This coupled with the kind of "cold fish" impression he gave others in start contrast to either Boris or Andrei make this a possibility. And this is a good chance that he could be closeted gay or bisexual. Either however would have broken Ducky's heart.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on December 15, 2012, 07:38:06 AM
Princess Maria of Leiningen :

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/375301marieleiningen.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=375301marieleiningen.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 15, 2012, 11:13:29 AM
Marie did not look very pretty but appeared glamorous here. I think she resembled her grandmother Miechen a lot in her looks.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: slavona on January 15, 2013, 06:50:36 AM

(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq148/slavona/2443180306_8874d8684e_b_zps784ffa57.jpg)
 Ducky probable at Balcic
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: slavona on January 15, 2013, 07:14:56 AM
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq148/slavona/victoria-melita-at-cotroceni_zpsf4c39d92.jpg)
 Ducky at Cotroceni

(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq148/slavona/MRE00112410_zps5cd46edc.jpg)
  Ducky, Kirill, Kira, Vladimir
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: slavona on January 15, 2013, 07:16:20 AM
Ducky as Joan of Darc, cca 1880
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq148/slavona/duckycaioanadarccca1880_zps751eb565.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: SweetAngels on January 15, 2013, 07:17:09 AM
The photo you posted earlier is taken Balcic, it is several photos of Marie and her sister Victoria Melita taken at that day.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 15, 2013, 10:21:33 AM
I think it was Ducky's time of depression that Missy took her away for rest and talk.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: slavona on January 16, 2013, 07:21:42 AM
Kiryll and Xenia
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq148/slavona/kirylxenia_zps2785c51c.jpg)

Kira and Sibylla of Saxa Coburg
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq148/slavona/kiraampsibylla_zpsad632e31.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: slavona on January 16, 2013, 08:54:22 AM
(http://i442.photobucket.com/albums/qq148/slavona/tumblr_m888gejaU61r71ilwo1_500_zpsf2645571.jpg)


  
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2013, 06:59:45 PM
Not too many pictures of Ducky as Grand Duchess of Russia. Apart from giving parties I wonder how she fill her days ?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on January 22, 2013, 11:46:50 PM
Please post here the photos of Victoria Melita of the period when she was a Grand Duchess of Russia. The images of her as GDss of Hesse or a Princess of Great Britain (childhood) should be at the proper threads in the Hesse and Windsor subforums.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2013, 09:38:40 AM
I wonder if Ducky's letters to her children curvive since they were not quoted or used in her biographies.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Perislov on March 13, 2013, 11:58:28 AM
I wonder if Ducky's letters to her children curvive since they were not quoted or used in her biographies.

One of the areas I have been recently studying is the conncection between the early NSDAP and the White Emigre/Kirillist support in Germany, and came across this sourced passage.

I have come across a publication that claims that the White Emigre community had a great deal of antipathy in the 1920s when they "learned" of Ducky having a long term affair with Vasily Biskupsky. It is sourced from 1927. Here is the passage, with my changes to spelling of names:

Quote
Biskupsky greatly influenced Victoria, who had a far more dynamic personality than her somewhat drab husband. Biskupsky acted as her closest advisor. Victoria ardently supported the dashing general. She granted him considerable funding for his activities in Aufbau in 1922, and she continually praised Aufbau to her husband. Biskupsky later engendered a great deal of antipathy in the German White ´emigr´e community when it became known that he had long been having an affair with Victoria and mainly owed his leading role in Kirill’s shadow government to his lover’s recommendations.

Michael Kellogg, The Russian Roots of Nazism White Émigrés and the Making of National Socialism, 1917–1945, Cambridge, 2005.
P. 157

This is noted from the following source:

Quote
RK¨U¨oO report from July 1927, RGVA (TsKhIDK), fond 772, opis 1, delo 91, 51.

Kellogg's work has been reviewed by peers, and is seen as a serious work on the subject. I am not yet sure what to make of this passage, as I can find few other sources concerning this and  how it relates to the previous conversation here about the split between Victoria and Kirill late in life.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 14, 2013, 12:29:50 PM
This sounds very interesting. Although I do not think that that kind of collaboration would result om a physical affair, it might be some more in tune to an intimate friendship.  Like the kind Tsarina Alexandra had with Rasputin. That would make sense since she held Kyrill responsible for his affair and her unhappiness. Had she been unfaithful, she would have an easier time like Sisi had with Katherina Schratt.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: bicapaul on July 21, 2014, 07:48:44 AM
Hello everyone! I am interested in aeronautics and other vehicles history. In this period I am specially intersted in the history of the Gregoire- Coanda turbine sled, that was builded for Grand Duke Kyrill. Is there a chance to have some pictures of this sled, or any reports of it? (excepting the articles and pictures from French newspapers in 1910). Are any mentions about the testing of this sled by Grand Duke Kyrill? Thank you!
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 21, 2014, 07:50:50 AM
Not easily found need research into it.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: bicapaul on July 21, 2014, 08:30:29 AM
I don't know if you know this picture, but bellow it is a shot of Grand Duke, near the turbine sled in 1910
The photo can be found on gallica website.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6915002h.r=turbine+traineau.langFR
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: grandduchessella on July 21, 2014, 08:55:21 PM
Hello everyone! I am interested in aeronautics and other vehicles history. In this period I am specially intersted in the history of the Gregoire- Coanda turbine sled, that was builded for Grand Duke Kyrill. Is there a chance to have some pictures of this sled, or any reports of it? (excepting the articles and pictures from French newspapers in 1910). Are any mentions about the testing of this sled by Grand Duke Kyrill? Thank you!

After his Propulseur was displayed in Paris, Coanda was approached by Grand Duke Cyril to make a sled for the Russian royal family. The Emperor himself had several sleds, and starting in 1911, motor-sleigh races were held on the Svednaga Newka, a branch of the Newa River, and on the island of Krestowsky in the Newa, near St. Petersburg. Lacking an entry, the Grand Duke commissioned a sleigh from Franco-Romanian inventor Henri Coandã. Coanda built it immediately, with the help of a French boat manufacturer, Despujols, and the motor manufacturer Gregoire, Coandă supervised the building of a motor sled. Instead of a Clerget, he fitted it with a six-cylinder 30-HP Grégoire engine. The sled had the same inverted flower-pot front as the Propulseur plane, but the body was teardrop-shaped, with two recessed passenger seats at the rear and large snow runners underneath. One magazine wrote: "As the illustration shows, the main frame and body work, suggestive of a cucumber with one end in a tub; enclose the motor, reinforced, having two layers of material instead of one. The body of the sled is built to carry a turbine, in the specially formed funnel in the front, by which the sled is propelled. Thus, the vehicle is to be drawn, not pushed."  The sled was exhibited at the Twelfth Automobile Salon of France, also at the Grand Palais, from December 3 to 18, 1910, and was written up in leading car magazines. One of the periodicals reported an expected speed of 60 mph (97 km/h) on the frozen Seine, but no account exists of the sled being tested. It was about 13.5 ft long, and was steered with an automobile steering wheel. The sled was baptized for Cyril by Russian Orthodox priests using an improvised altar at the Despujols plant near Paris on December 2, 1910 with Grand Duchess Victoria present as shown in photos. It's not clear that Cyril’s sled ever worked--no record has been found of an actual run. The Motor (magazine) only concluded that the sled was to be sent to Russia.  It never turned up again, and certainly didn't survive the series of revolutions and wars that was to come. As for Coanda, he was no doubt a skilled aeronautical designer, and became a Romanian national hero (the airport in Bucharest is named after him).

 
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: bicapaul on July 22, 2014, 02:36:36 AM
Thank you, your description of the Coanda sled is very detailled and comprehensive.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: rudy3 on July 22, 2014, 03:10:30 AM
"The Grand Duke's Turbo Sleigh" by David Traver Adolphus as it appeared originally in the November, 2011 issue of Hemmings Motor News with a picture of the baptizing of the sleigh:
on Hemmings.com:
http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2011/11/01/hmn_feature19.html (http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2011/11/01/hmn_feature19.html)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: bicapaul on July 23, 2014, 06:33:31 AM
Thank you rudy3, I know this article. In 2011, the pictures from this article were unknown for me and other people interested in Henri Coanda' technical work.
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 13, 2015, 01:24:11 PM
(http://nd06.jxs.cz/653/893/08fb8f3a03_100106248_o2.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Ally Kumari on January 16, 2015, 12:00:38 PM
Kyril with grandson

(http://static0.akpool.de/images/cards/57/570512.jpg)

Source: http://www.akpool.de/ansichtskarten/24282960-foto-ak-grossfuerst-kyrill-wladimirowitsch-romanow-mit-enkel-emich-von-leiningen
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2015, 11:36:49 PM
Kyril with his grandson (son of Marie).
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: KarinK on February 07, 2015, 02:18:41 PM
(http://36.media.tumblr.com/f09d9c7736e62032a96e48c91d7d9d68/tumblr_njd88ajvBH1tw2zo1o1_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: bicapaul on June 20, 2015, 01:48:24 PM
Hello everyone. I don't know if it is proper to post here, but please see the link below for a few pictures of my model of the sled ordered by Grand Duke Kiril to Henri Coanda.
http://www.cartula.ro/forum/topic/13583-macheta-sanie-coanda-132/page__pid__203195#entry203195
Thank you for your support!
Title: Recording of Kirill and Victoria Melita - Mémoires d'exil
Post by: Queen_Missy on January 03, 2016, 12:23:21 PM
Does anyone know what part of the documentary has the recording of Kirill and Ducky's voices? The video someone posted before of that part is removed and I don't speak French - it said they spoke in English. What segment of the documentary is it in?
Title: Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
Post by: Ally Kumari on December 03, 2017, 04:27:28 AM
I just stumbled upon this photo on tumblr

Victoria with little Elisabeth - and apparently a pony was allowed indoors! Any idea what book this is from?

(http://78.media.tumblr.com/2b83bb4de813bb72c4e790d72a47f0b2/tumblr_p0cuytqWFf1wxu815o1_1280.jpg)