Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Habsburgs => Topic started by: Marie Valerie on March 12, 2006, 03:55:05 AM

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 12, 2006, 03:55:05 AM
Rudolf Franz Karl Josef von Österreich-Ungarn

* 21. April 1858 in Wien; † 30. Jänner 1889 in Mayerling

Only son of Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth


Married:

1X 1880 (in secret)  :o :o :o
Maria Antonia Archduchess of Habsburg-Tuscany
1858-1883

2X 1881
Stephanie Princess of Belgium
1864-1945

Child:

Archduchess Elisabeth Marie "Erzsi"



I'm surprised that he was married two times!?
(But is this really true?)

I know that he was married to Stephanie of Belgium but I did not known of Maria Antonia of Tuscany...


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 12, 2006, 04:17:27 AM

Frankly, I´m not convinced about the stories concerning a secret marriage between Rudolf and his cousin Maria Antonia. I found somewhere (sorry, don´t remember why...) that they were lovers and that she became pregnant. But I don´t believe that emperor Franz Josef would not allowed the marriage if Maria Antonia was really pregnant with a son/daughter of Rudolf. At the end, Maria Antonia was a princess of a branch of the Habsburg dinasty, not a commoner...I mean that she was a suitable empress.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on March 12, 2006, 06:50:18 AM
The story of a possible secret marriage btw Rudolf & Maria Antonia comes up here and there in various bios but personally I find it fanciful and do not believe a single word of it.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marc on March 13, 2006, 07:51:59 AM
Can anyone tell me something about ancestry of Baroness Maria von Vetsera?I think I read somewhere that her mother Helena Baltazzi was attached at her time to Franz Joseph and that's why Sissi didn't like her!True?I also found that Helena's mother was Viera MavoGordato,so I was wondering is it the same family as MavroCordato(Princely family) or no?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 13, 2006, 08:07:33 AM
As far as I know, Helena Baltazzi, wife of "freiherr" Albin Johannes von Vetsera, was daughter of a man named Theodore Baltazzi, a banker and economic advisor to the sultan. In fact, Helena met Albin von Vetsera, at the time a austrian diplomat,  in Istanbul.

I have read that Theodore Baltazzi was one son of Evangelino Baltazzi and a woman named Vgerou Mavrocordato, of the famous Chiote bizantine greek family.

The brothers of Helena Baltazzi Vetsera (Alexandre, Aristide, Henry and Hector) had great stables in Hungary, they become famous in the world of the horses and this opened the doors of great aristocracy, even royalty, to the family. It was said that Helena was a mistress of Franz Josef, but there are so much gossip and no proofs. It is posible, howewer, that Helena did made such advances on crownprince Rudolf, later the lover of her daughter Marie Alexandrine, named Mary, Vetsera.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 13, 2006, 06:00:34 PM


I have a lot of information about the Baltazzi family:

1.-Helena Baltazzi, or Helen Baltazzi as she prefered be named, was born in 1847. Her father was, as I said before, Theodore Baltazzi, son of Evangelino Baltazzi and his wife Vgerou Mavrocordato. Her mother was Elizabeth, named Eliza, Sarrell. Eliza Sarrell was the oldest child of a merchant of the Levant Company named Richard Sarrell and his (second) wife Euphrosyne Rasi.

Eliza Sarrell was born in Constantinopla and grew up in this marvellous city. When she had nineteen years she was married to Theodore Baltazzi, a man twenty five years older than Eliza. Theodore was an succesful banker: this is the reason why parents of Eliza were happy with the wedding.

Theodore and Eliza had a lot of children: the first Elizabeth, or Lizzie; the second was Helen; the third, Mary, nicknamed Bibi; the fourth,  Alexander. Then came Hector,  then was born Aristide, and then was born Eveline. Finally were born Charlotte, nicknamed Lolo, and Henry, usually known as Harry. Julia was a posthumous child of Theodore.

At the time of his marriage, Theodore Baltazzi was a subject of the Austro-Hungarian empire. His ancestors had managed to became citizens of Venize, and Venize was part of the empire since 1815. But in 1860 Theodore realize his dream: he obtained Austrian nationality and was also appointed as knight of the Franz Josef Order. A year later, Theodore was dead, leaving the wife pregnant of posthumous daughter Julia.

Two years later, the widow Eliza Sarrell Baltazzi married, in Paris, her lover Charles Alison. They had met each other at the british embassy in Constantinopla. After the marriage, Charles had gone to Teheran, as Envoy to the Persian Court. Eliza Sarrell traveled to El Cairo with daughter Helen, twenty years old. In El Cairo, at the Hotel d´Orient, Eliza and Helen joined Lizzie, wife of baron Nugent, elder daughter of Eliza and elder sister of Helen, but also other members of the Sarrell family. Eliza was seriously illnes and they deceased in El Cairo.

Before her death, Eliza had asken to the austrian diplomat Albin Johannes, baron Vetsera, to be the guardian of the unmarried children. At this time Albin Johannes made courtship to Helen, who had inherited from the father a fortune of six million gold francs.

One year later, in the British Embassy Chapel in Constantinople, Albin married Helen. He was twenty-two years older than the bride.

Albin Vetsera continued his good career as diplomat. At the end, in 1870, Albin was raised to the rank of baron.

Before Albin and Helen went to Viena, and they had four children:

-Ladislaus, born in 1865.
-Johanna Caroline Elisabeth, known as Hanna, born in Pera.
-Marie Alexandrine, known as Mary, born in El Cairo.
-Franz, named Feri.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on March 13, 2006, 06:16:02 PM
The Baltazzi made brilliant marriages upon the whole considering their status as commoners. Marie Virginie married count Albert Saint-Julien, Eveline count Georg Stockau, Charlotte count Georg Erdödi, Hector countess Anna Ugarte & Aristide countess Maria Theresia Stockau.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 13, 2006, 06:28:27 PM
Quote
The Baltazzi made brilliant marriages upon the whole considering their status as commoners. Marie Virginie married count Albert Saint-Julien, Eveline count Georg Stockau, Charlotte count Georg Erdödi, Hector countess Anna Ugarte & Aristide countess Maria Theresia Stockau.


Right, Agneschen  :)

The brothers were involved in horses. Alexander was the most brilliant among the Baltazzi´s brothers, I believe...He was educated in England and then followed his sister Helen and his brother-in-law Albin to Viena.

Alexander and brothers became founders of the Jockey Club of Viena, based on the English Jockey Club. This put the Baltazzis so close to Empress Elizabeth, Sissi. They had known the empress at Belvoir Castle, England, where she was hosted by the Duke of Rutland, around 1874. Since there, Alexander and brothers were often hosted in Godollo, the hungarian palace of Elisabeth. They became friends to the Captain William George "Bay" Middleton, the personal ridding assistant of Elisabeth.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 13, 2006, 06:32:19 PM
So...Mary, baroness Vetsera, was daughter of a newly created baron with a distinguished career as diplomat and of an heiress who spent lots of money to assure the social rank of the family. And Mary was niece of the founders of Jockey Club, friends of the empress Elisabeth, too.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 14, 2006, 08:20:01 AM
Quote
Wow,great info's and pictures Eugenie...I still wonder about origines of Baltazzi family...were they Hungarian,Greek,Italian-I mean by origin!


The origines of Baltazzi family are in Venetia, Marc. One Bernardo Baltazzi was the governor of the Venetian galleys, the warships of the Serenissima, circa 1480. A lot of Baltazzis became "levantins", member of the great community who had gone to Greek and Turkish places searching a fortune. But Theodore Baltazzi, the father of Helen Baltazzi, felt proud of being a "venetian". He was subject of the Austro-Hungarian empire due this condition of venetian, and, later, he obtained the austrian passport.

But If you are interested in origines of Helen, Alexander, Aristide, Eveline...I mean, the mother and the uncles or aunts of Mary Vetsera... it´s more complicated. They had connections to chiote bizantine greeks families, but also to british families. Remember that the mother of Theodore Baltazzi was a Mavrocordato woman. Eliza Sarrell, the mother of Helen and grand-mother of Mary, was daughter of a Rhasi woman. But the father of Eliza, Richard Sarrell, was son of a freeman of Exeter named Philip Sarrell and wife Sarah, born Sarah Sowton (of Devon).

Mary Vetsera liked so much her british background, because it sounds "more fashionable". This is a reason why she used the name Mary and not Marie Alexandrine.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on March 14, 2006, 08:40:30 AM
Why, Marie Alexandrine sounds much lovelier & refined than plain Mary to my ears. Matter of taste I suppose ...  ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 14, 2006, 08:54:31 AM
Quote
Why, Marie Alexandrine sounds much lovelier & refined than plain Mary to my ears. Matter of taste I suppose ...  ;)


I´m in your way, Agneschen ;)

I like so much more how sounds Marie Alexandrine (it seems a name for a pretty princess...). Mary is...very common, the most common name (I know it well, I am named Maria...). But the young Vetsera thought Mary was more fashionable...  ???
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 14, 2006, 09:22:25 AM
I am trying to find some pic of Johanna, Hanna, later countess Bylandt-Rheyd, but...I have nothing  :-/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marc on March 14, 2006, 11:22:06 AM
I also agree with you Agneschen and Eugenie,Marie Alexandrine sounds more noble...I am also interested in Mavrocordato family because I was searching some genealogical sites and couldn't find Vetsera grandmother!Were there other branches of this family that we don't know much about because I checked those Mavrocordato's who had Princely title and her grandmother is not one of them!Please,also tell me about her British ancestors,were there any nobles among them?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eugenie_of_Montijo on March 14, 2006, 02:13:22 PM
Frankly...I never have seen Mary Vetsera as a beauty. Maria Larish was beautiful, but Mary seems just pretty. Some pics of Stephanie of Belgium showed a woman most interesting than this "fashionable Mary". I do not believe that Rudolf fell in love with Mary and loved her passionately...From my point of wiew, he felt a certain attraction for Mary because she was really fascinated with him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Svetabel on March 15, 2006, 01:16:30 AM
Quote
Frankly...I never have seen Mary Vetsera as a beauty. Maria Larish was beautiful, but Mary seems just pretty. Some pics of Stephanie of Belgium showed a woman most interesting than this "fashionable Mary". I do not believe that Rudolf fell in love with Mary and loved her passionately...From my point of wiew, he felt a certain attraction for Mary because she was really fascinated with him.


Quote
Frankly...I never have seen Mary Vetsera as a beauty. Maria Larish was beautiful, but Mary seems just pretty. Some pics of Stephanie of Belgium showed a woman most interesting than this "fashionable Mary". I do not believe that Rudolf fell in love with Mary and loved her passionately...From my point of wiew, he felt a certain attraction for Mary because she was really fascinated with him.


Some women are extremely sexual , they  are not beautiful but  men love them ;) . Of course probably Rudolf indeed liked Mary as she was too young, and fascinated with him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on March 15, 2006, 05:20:22 AM
The stories that have been written about Rudolf & Mary Vetsera's Liebestod are rigmaroles & total nonsense in my opinion.
Rudolf had many love affairs with many women. He never was in love with Mary. He spent his last night before leaving to Mayerling with another of his mistresses Mizzi Caspar. He had previously asked Mizzi to die with him but she had laughed at him in the face. Mary was an easy prey. She was very young, credulous & fascinated by Rudolf. Her infatuation can be compared to the crushes teenagers nowadays have for actors or singers. Fancying herself violently in love, she was willing to comply to the Kronprinz's every wish & the thought of dying together probably appealed to her as "romantic". Rudolf was a coward at heart. He was afraid of death & badly needed someone to accompany him. After killing Mary he had reached the point of no return & had to die as well. Having murdered, he could simply go on living no longer. He had no alternative.
Just my 2 cents though for I know there are various theories about the Mayerling drama.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on March 15, 2006, 05:23:23 AM
Quote
Frankly...I never have seen Mary Vetsera as a beauty. Maria Larish was beautiful, but Mary seems just pretty.


I agree. Rudolf himself did not think Mary a great beauty. He said she had a lovely face but a badly shaped body.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Booklady on March 15, 2006, 05:55:51 AM
Why did he make a point of having someone die with him?  Why not just go off to Mayerling and do it alone?  Does anyone have at hand the "suicide notes" they left.  It's been so long since I've read them I forgot if there might be any hidden clues in them.  The episode at Mayerling is still fascinating.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on March 15, 2006, 06:04:49 AM
How could Rudolf go on living after having killed ? Could the Kronprinz of Austria-Hungary be tried for murder & sent to jail ? Can you imagine the scandal ? After killing Mary, the only alternative that was left was committing suicide.
I think he was afraid he would not have the pluck to do it if he was alone.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on March 15, 2006, 10:08:20 AM
Quote
 Does anyone have at hand the "suicide notes" they left.  It's been so long since I've read them I forgot if there might be any hidden clues in them.  

Accorting to the Elisabeth bio by Corti (based on what Ida Ferenczy told him), in his last note Rudolf wrote to his mother : "I no longer have the right to live, I have murdered !".
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Booklady on March 15, 2006, 12:32:03 PM
I believe some books have claimed that the current suicide notes in existence are not the original ones, or that some may have been destroyed.  Has anyone seen copies of them or know where they exist today?

Then there's always the conspiracy-theory aspect--are they real or forged?  Was suicide his only way out of a miserable situation?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on March 25, 2006, 01:18:40 PM
In the Stephanie Book "Ich sollte Kaiserin werden" is a copy of Rudolf's Suicide letter.

Elisabeth has burned her one, that's all I know.



I think Rudolf choosed the easiert way - for him!
He was seriously ill and don't wanted to die a painful death, but it's a shame that he took Mary with him. Poor girl, she loved him and Rudolf just used her for his selfish end.

 :'(
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Emilia on March 25, 2006, 03:06:23 PM
Quote
Anyone know what Wilhelm thought of Rudolf?  ???

At first Wilhelm liked Rudolf a lot, as he treated him always so nice when being in Vienna. But as time passed, and Willi sensed that Rudolf´s friendlyness was only superfical, he began to dislike him. And Wilhelm of course couldn´t stand Rudolf´s liberal ideas, his friendship with many Jews (Wilhelm even called him a "Judenknecht") etc. :-/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: crazy_wing on March 25, 2006, 05:14:42 PM
I think most of the pictures about of the two were taken when Wilhelm visited Vienna for the exposition to show the friendship between the two Empires.  Like Emilia above said, Rudolf and Wilhelm were very different.  Rudolf did not like Wilhelm either.  Wilhelm was too loud and militaristic for Rudolf.   FJ was not fond of Wilhelm either.  He compared Wilhelm and Rudolf's behavior during the period.  He was proud of his own son's behavior but found Wilhelm like a monkey.  

As years passed, Rudolf was probably jealous of Wilhelm too.  When the pictures were taken, Rudolf was 1st in line to the Austrian throne and Wilhelm was just 2nd in line to the Prussian throne.  But then by 1888, Wilhelm was already a Emperor and Rudolf was still a crown prince with nothing to do.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Lemur on April 17, 2006, 08:50:02 PM
I was reading in "Fall of Eagles" just now that his mistress's body was hidden and he was said to have had died in a hunting accident. When her uncles appeared to demand her body, they said if they were denied they'd create a public scandal. They were forced to take her body home dressed and walked as if she were alive. This reminded me of "Weekend At Bernies". I can't believe they actually had to do that. Truth is stranger than fiction, this is why I love history!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Prince_Christopher on April 22, 2006, 12:00:41 PM
I was chilled when I read Lemur's post on the death of Vetsera, so I got out my copy of The Fall of Eagles, by C.L. Sulzberger, and for those interested, here is the direct quote concerning the macabre scene:

"Rudolf's body was taken to Vienna while Marie's was hidden in Mayerling until the following night.  The girl's two uncles led by Viktor Baltazzi of a respected Constantinople lineage,...threatened a public scandal if they could not reclaim their niece for the family.  Finally the palace acceded. They dressed her stiff corpse, walked it between them to a carriage as if she were merely ill, drove to the capital after forcing it, rigor mortis and all, into a semblance of sitting posture, and had her secretly buried in a Cistercian abbey." p.164.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yseult on May 01, 2006, 10:40:08 AM
Wow...

A very good question, Marie_Valerie. My personal answer is the following: Rudolf was not strong enough to writte a last letter nor to his father, neither to his sister Gisela. Rudolf felt so guilty about his father, because he was sure that he was not the crownprince long awaited and deeply wished by such an emperor. It has been more easy to leave behind a letter to the mother I always adored and wanted to want him. I suppose that Rudolf felt a mixture of jealousy and tenderness to Valeria, the "only one daughter" of their mother. He knew so well that Valeria would povides comfort to both the father and the mother.

But Gisela...Gisela was the loved and beloved sister. Rudolf and Gisela were brought up by their paternal grand-mother archduchess Sophia, and the two children were really attached. If I´m not wrong, when Gisela, sixteen years old, married prince Leopold of Bavaria and moved from Viena to Munich, crownprince Rudolf felt so much pain and grieve. I think that Rudolf didn´t dare to writte a letter to his protective and supportive elder sister.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on May 01, 2006, 12:37:20 PM
This is an interesting point Yseult. I have always wondered why Rudolf left no letter to his beloved elder sister. He & Gisela were indeed very close and devoted to each other. When Gisela married and left for Munich, Rudolf is said to have cried floods of tears.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yseult on May 01, 2006, 03:06:35 PM
You´re right, Agneschen!

The more hard thing to do it´s to recognize to our really loved ones that our life is a complete failure, a large number of mistakes that hurted us so much and left us so tired to carry on our personal cross on our shoulders. I suppose that Gisela was a woman so naive...she married very young, and Leopold was the only man she ever loved or she ever needed to belong to...she never was touched by gossip or scandals...she was a good girl, a good wife, a good mother, this kind of woman that always remind me "Melanie Wilkes" in "Gone with the wind"  ::) The more dreadful thing to Rhett Butler was to confess his "sins" to Melanie...isn´t it? Well, I´m speculating, but I suppose that Rudolf had not the strenght to send a letter to his Gisela/Melanie explaining her that he was a man who found solace in drink, drugs and female companion, a husband who infected his wife with venereal disease...At, at the end, he was able to kill Mary and killed himself after, but not able to writte a farewell´s letter to the sweet Gisela.

(And sorry for my bad english...I hope you can understand what I mean)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on May 02, 2006, 02:06:33 PM
i have found in my bookcase a book written by a hungarian historian called istvan bart. the book is called 'the unfortunate destiny of prince rudolf'. in it it presents an interesting theory. it says that in the last night rudolf called for a doctor from the closest military unit, the doctor responsible for it. it also says that, as surprising as that may sound, that particular doctor was a gynecologist. it suggests that mary was pregnant and tried to have an abortion that went wrong and she died as a consequence... and that rudolf felt responsible (of killing her indirectly) and killed himself. anyone heard of this theory? the book says that it's based on contemporary sources but it doesn't name thme anywhere  :-/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Svetabel on May 03, 2006, 12:58:34 AM
Quote
i have found in my bookcase a book written by a hungarian historian called istvan bart. the book is called 'the unfortunate destiny of prince rudolf'. in it it presents an interesting theory. it says that in the last night rudolf called for a doctor from the closest military unit, the doctor responsible for it. it also says that, as surprising as that may sound, that particular doctor was a gynecologist. it suggests that mary was pregnant and tried to have an abortion that went wrong and she died as a consequence... and that rudolf felt responsible (of killing her indirectly) and killed himself. anyone heard of this theory? the book says that it's based on contemporary sources but it doesn't name thme anywhere  :-/

I also have this book by Bart, I've re-read it recently. Well,his theory sounds interesting and I agree that he  does not take the trouble to name the sources  :-/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on May 03, 2006, 07:14:09 AM
Some years ago a muddled man stole Mary Vetsera's dead body. Then an autopsy was made and they found out that Mary died because of a shot in the head. But maybe she was pregnant, too.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: TzarinaAlex on May 07, 2006, 11:20:56 AM
About Crown Prince Rudolf and marie Vestera:

   All the book I have read about Empress Elizabeth and Rudolf and Stephanie and even Franz Joseph have left out certian things about Rudolf not known to history. In the Emperors memoirs he went to great lengths to cover his sons suicide, why Could it be that Rudolf did not wish to wait like Edward the7th did for QV to die? or maybe Rudolf's views on the hegmony that was Austria Hungary in the late 1800's needed a change and his father could not accept it. We know he and Stephanie were ill suited and he gave her syphillis( which made a male heir impossible) He did send a note to the Papal Nuncio requesting a possible divorce from Stephanie after the birth of little elizabeth...... Rudolf was dismayed when William II became Emperor in 1888..... :-/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on May 07, 2006, 05:02:59 PM
Besides that Rudolf was very ill ...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: crazy_wing on May 07, 2006, 09:20:25 PM
Quote
About Crown Prince Rudolf and marie Vestera:

Could it be that Rudolf did not wish to wait like Edward the7th did for QV to die? or maybe Rudolf's views on the hegmony that was Austria Hungary in the late 1800's needed a change and his father could not accept it.
 

One of the biggest reason why this tragedy took place is because Rudolf felt lonely.  It didn't help when he had inherited the Wittslbach eccentricity from his mother and had poor relations with his family.   Unlike EVII, his relationships with his parents and his wife were poor and he didn't have many strong and supportive siblings to talk to.  I understand that he was very closed to Gisela but after her marriage, she was too far away to be able to help him.  I am not even sure how much she knew about his problems.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 08, 2006, 11:53:17 AM
This was a very tragic story; it was very sad. Rudolph had many issues. I suppose it was easier to die with someone than alone, so this is why he did it. He made himself into a murderer so he could kill himself. He had no one around to be supportive, and his mother's family was very eccentric to say the least, and he inheirited this. Mary Vetsera was a naive young woman, who become the victim of both herself, and Rudolph. She went along with his plot, foolishly, and thus died, and he did as well. She was foolish, yet she did possess sexual magnetism, although she was no great beauty at all. She was pretty, and her stoory is sad, but she should have known better. Perhaps she was pregnant; she was one of many women to Rudolph. I don't  think Rudolph would have made a good Emperor if he hadn't killed himself.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on May 08, 2006, 02:29:17 PM
Quote
Quote
About Crown Prince Rudolf and marie Vestera:

Could it be that Rudolf did not wish to wait like Edward the7th did for QV to die? or maybe Rudolf's views on the hegmony that was Austria Hungary in the late 1800's needed a change and his father could not accept it.
 

One of the biggest reason why this tragedy took place is because Rudolf felt lonely.  It didn't help when he had inherited the Wittslbach eccentricity from his mother and had poor relations with his family.   Unlike EVII, his relationships with his parents and his wife were poor and he didn't have many strong and supportive siblings to talk to.  I understand that he was very closed to Gisela but after her marriage, she was too far away to be able to help him.  I am not even sure how much she knew about his problems.  

edward 7th was a disappointment for his parents. i sincerely doubt they got along too well... but he had a very different personality.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: crazy_wing on May 08, 2006, 06:02:10 PM
Indeed he had a different personality.  But as much as EVII was a disappointment to QV, I think their relationship was much better than the relationship between Rudolf and FJ.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 09, 2006, 09:19:54 AM
Rudolph does seem to have disapointed his parents, far before his tragic death, which is easy to see why it was disapointing..
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on May 09, 2006, 09:56:10 AM
Unlike Edward VII Rudolf was depressive and most unstable. Besides he drank heavily and, towards the end of his life, had turned to drugs to ease the pain caused by the venerial disease he suffered from.
The last known pictures of him are very telling IMO. He is barely over 30 but looks much older. The combined effects of a debauched life & depression I guess ... I remember one of his letters to his wife Stéphanie in which he states he has almost forgotten the meaning of the word "to sleep" !!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 09, 2006, 10:07:23 AM
His lifestyle in many ways did destroy him. Not that Hapsburg Princes hadn't been debauched or had undesirable lifestyles for ages. It was nothing new, but it seemed to destroy Rudolph more than some others. I think he would have died realtively younger even if it hadn't been for the suicide/ murder at Mayerling.  He was on a course to destroy himself.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on May 09, 2006, 10:33:17 AM
Rudolf was so ill, he would have had died in a short time.
I think it's the same desease for that fell Archduke Otto, Franz Ferdinand's younger brother.

Many people think that "Kaiser Rudolf" would have been better for Austria, than his old father,
but at Franz Joseph's death Rudolf were 58 years old and the world was in WW1, there where nothing to save and do.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 09, 2006, 10:49:06 AM
Yes, knowing the way he was, I can't see how he could have changed the course of the Austro Hungarian Empire by ruling. He might just have made matters worse than they were. He wasn't a saviour for the monarachy sadly. I am sure he would have died in a short time anyway.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on May 10, 2006, 05:19:50 AM
Quote
Rudolf was so ill, he would have had died in a short time.
I think it's the same desease for that fell Archduke Otto, Franz Ferdinand's younger brother.

Many people think that "Kaiser Rudolf" would have been better for Austria, than his old father,
but at Franz Joseph's death Rudolf were 58 years old and the world was in WW1, there where nothing to save and do.  


bare in mind that the pretext of world war 1 was the assasination of franz ferdinand. since i tend to think the world was set on a war anyway, i wonder what would have started it, had rudolf been alive, and would it have happened later and in different conditions?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 10, 2006, 08:59:40 AM
Something would no doubt have started it anyway. The diplomatic sitiuation made this unevitable, actually. There would have been a different catalyst of course, but still, it would have happened. Rudolph woudn't have been able to cope with it that well, I don't think. Perhaps if he hadn't died it might have happened later, or in different circumstances, but I still see it happening.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on May 10, 2006, 11:39:37 AM
Franz Ferdinand had died because of the "wrong wife", Franz Joseph and the Vienese Court were still bitter of the morganatic marriage to Sophie Chotek and get no security or more police men in Sarajewo, althrough they knew that there were assasins planned. And they let him die.

FJ, who visited the city a few years ealier, had masses of security and dangerous people were kept in prison until the Emperor leaves town.  But FJ disliked FF and did nothing to save him.


I think that a war would had started anyway, and Franz Ferdinand was the best reason at the moment.
Austria-Hungary was a sinking ship and the Ultimatum to Serbia was the last chance to get respect back, for the Monachy - not for Franz Ferdinand - in which name the war was started!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on May 11, 2006, 03:05:49 AM
exactly. but had franz ferdinand not been heir to the throne, he wouldn't have been sent there in the first place, would he? and had they sent rudolf, they probably would have taken more care. which means that austria wouldn't have had a pretext to start the war. without a pretext the hostility could have been hidden for quite a while more.

it's just a interensting what if...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 11, 2006, 09:40:53 AM
Yes, with Rudolph, they would have taken more care. They would not allow him to be assinated, if they could help it anyway. Franz Joseph showed have cared more for the security arrangements of a member of his own dynasty, even though the guy married morgantically, I agree. That shows how deep alienation over morgantic marriages could go then, among European Royal families. Rudolph did not have the strength of character to be a successful Emperor, but perhaps his living longer might have prevented World War I through breaking out when it did, if there was no assaination.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on May 11, 2006, 01:11:37 PM
Quote
exactly. but had franz ferdinand not been heir to the throne, he wouldn't have been sent there in the first place, would he? and had they sent rudolf, they probably would have taken more care. which means that austria wouldn't have had a pretext to start the war. without a pretext the hostility could have been hidden for quite a while more.

it's just a interensting what if...


Franz Ferdinand did this fatale trip to Sarajevo because of Sophie Chotek.
He was lucky that his morganatic wife would get there all royal duties,
that were not allowed in Vienna or Austria.

The people in the Vienese court were very proud on their titles and ranks,
as a woman you were only accepted with 16 royal Ancestors.
That means if in your family one member married morganatic, you're Family tree was a waste...

I don't know if you saw pics of FF and Sophie's Coffins,
but they make the difference of their ranks even in death showable.
Sophie's coffin stand on the floor, FF's was put on a stand.



 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on May 12, 2006, 10:27:02 AM
i got your point marie_valerie, but i was talking about something. about how rudolf's death influenced the first world war.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on May 13, 2006, 07:01:01 AM
Quote
i got your point marie_valerie, but i was talking about something. about how rudolf's death influenced the first world war.



Rudolf had no influence in WW1, he was already 25 years dead!


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: José on May 13, 2006, 11:59:45 AM
Quote
exactly. but had franz ferdinand not been heir to the throne, he wouldn't have been sent there in the first place, would he? and had they sent rudolf, they probably would have taken more care. which means that austria wouldn't have had a pretext to start the war. without a pretext the hostility could have been hidden for quite a while more.

it's just a interensting what if...

FF would ALWAYS be the heir to the throne, considering that Rudolf only had one daughter.
So he might be sent to Serajevo anyway.
Does someone know how was the relation between Rudolf and FF ?
They had just 5 years difference.
Who knows, if Rudolf was the Emperor, he might have allowed FF's marriage to Sophie and not just a morganatic one.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on May 14, 2006, 05:15:09 AM
Quote
Quote
i got your point marie_valerie, but i was talking about something. about how rudolf's death influenced the first world war.



Rudolf had no influence in WW1, he was already 25 years dead!




LOL
let's repeat what i already said: had rudolf not died, franz ferdinand would not have been heir to the throne and most likely would not have gone to sarajevo... franz ferdinand assasination IN SARAJEVO was the pretext for the first world war. had he not died there (he or whoever would have been crown prince), there would have been no pretext and the hostilities would have probably been delayed a little. you said it yourself that franz ferdinand's security was deliberately not taken care of. had rudolf gone (assuming this was a visit that had to be done), there would have been more security, therefor no assasination, therefor no pretext...

are you starting to follow my logic?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on May 14, 2006, 09:11:12 AM
Quote
LOL
let's repeat what i already said: had rudolf not died, franz ferdinand would not have been heir to the throne and most likely would not have gone to sarajevo... franz ferdinand assasination IN SARAJEVO was the pretext for the first world war. had he not died there (he or whoever would have been crown prince), there would have been no pretext and the hostilities would have probably been delayed a little. you said it yourself that franz ferdinand's security was deliberately not taken care of. had rudolf gone (assuming this was a visit that had to be done), there would have been more security, therefor no assasination, therefor no pretext...

are you starting to follow my logic?



But you can also blame Franz Joseph and Elisabeth that they only get one son!

You're right, Rudolf's influense in WW1 was his early dead - plus he had just a daughter...
I think if the throne was for his own son or grandson, maybe Franz Joseph hasn't rushed into war,
and tried to hold the Dual Monarchy together for his heir, but just for a nephew...
I also think that FJ was too old for a decision of peace or war,
his wife was murdered, his son dead and he might have died any day,
so nothing really mattered to him anymore.
All this and the complete support of Germany under Kaiser Wilhelm II. the war was unvitable.

 

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 18, 2006, 04:06:48 PM
I defintely agree with Ilyala's logic. Rudolph, although long dead, had an influence on the events that lead to World War I by not being there. If he had, it might have gone differently, although that woudn't have prevented it at all. Franz Joseph may not have cared that much about events at the time of World War I. He was indeed very old to care, and had been through so much. He indeed might have cared had he still had an heir descended from him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on May 19, 2006, 05:37:49 AM
Rudolf would probably have been dead & buried long before WWI started anyway ...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on May 19, 2006, 09:09:21 AM
Quote
Rudolf would probably have been dead & buried long before WWI started anyway ...


we don't know that for sure. just look at carlos 2nd of spain. he was so sick from birth that no-one thought he'd survive to adulthood and yet he lived to be 40. we cannot know what would have happened if we take out mayerling. maybe, had he stayed alive and sane, he would have already dealt with the empire business, franz joseph being indeed very old and probably just waiting to die... then maybe things would have been different... cause while franz joseph was loyal to germany, rudolf admired france...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 19, 2006, 02:49:43 PM
While he might have been dead and buried by then, his influence whether he was there or not would have been felt. As well, even by not being there, he still had influence, not only because of who he was, but because of the world of the time, as it was. Rudolph may have worked things out in his life, we will never know, but he seemed on the wrong track to me anyway.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Paola on May 19, 2006, 03:07:57 PM
Indeed....had Rudolph lived longer,  the course of events might have been different. But by the time of Mayerling, Rudolph was already quite ill with a venereal disease (gonohrrea). WWI started 25 years after his death, so it could be that he was already dead.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on May 19, 2006, 03:36:57 PM
I think he would have been dead, but not his influence at all. He lived a self destructive lifestyle, and there is no way he could have survived all that long. He was on on the wrong path. And the war would have happened anyway, it is just that it may not have been as bad.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on May 23, 2006, 09:03:59 AM
Quote
Indeed....had Rudolph lived longer,  the course of events might have been different. But by the time of Mayerling, Rudolph was already quite ill with a venereal disease (gonohrrea). WWI started 25 years after his death, so it could be that he was already dead.



that is a good point (i am not very knowing about rudolf's condition). however, my observation remains valid if you place him in healthy environment with a healthy lifestyle.

i'm sorry, i'm just a big 'what if' fan  ::)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on May 23, 2006, 09:35:55 AM
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/Royal%20Houses/Habsburg/Habsburg-Lothringen/Rudolf%20-%20Kronprinz/56466000.jpg)


(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/Royal%20Houses/Habsburg/Habsburg-Lothringen/Rudolf%20-%20Kronprinz/rudolf13k.jpg)


(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b284/realSandyV/Royal%20Houses/Habsburg/Habsburg-Lothringen/Rudolf%20-%20Kronprinz/rudolfaustria1858-2.jpg)
Rudolf in his last photoshot, looking not healthy anymore....
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kaiserin Sissi on June 15, 2006, 03:53:56 PM
That someone can give to me informations, and maybe photos, about  Robert Pachmann the Illegitimate son of Rudolf and Archduchess Maria Antonia of Austria-Toscana. I dont know if is a Rumor or if is true.

                                                 Thanks                             Kaiserin Sissi
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: erzsi on June 15, 2006, 03:58:40 PM
I know that Robert Pacher was born 1881 and died 1969 but i think this marriage between rudolf and antonia is a lie.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kaiserin Sissi on June 15, 2006, 04:05:07 PM
I think so too. But maybe, Rudolf and Maria Antonia have an liaison and have a baby, what do you think ?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Marie Valerie on June 15, 2006, 04:32:56 PM
Never! That is so untrue!

Antonia became only 25 years old,
her weakness and illness would never give her a chance to survive a childbirth.

Beside that, Antonia was from the Habsburgs of Tuscany,
which were very religious...

And a secret marriage with Rudolf is absurd.
Why should it keept as a secret, his sister Marie Valerie also married a Tuscany of Habsburg.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 15, 2006, 05:01:43 PM
Maria Antonia or "Antoinette" as she was called by her family, wasn't in good health since she was born. She suffered from a lung disease, maybe tuberculosis.
In 1860, when she was only two years old, she left Tuscany for Salzburg. There she lived with the rest of her family in the exile. When Antoinette was ten, her father married a second time. She came along very well with her step-mother Alix, Princess of Bourbon-Parma. I read in the autobiography of Antoinette's eldest half-sister Louise that she was a very intelligent woman and that she was admired by her little siblings. Antoinette had indeed a lot of interests. Above all she loved poetry and wrote nice little poems. Her teacher published them after her death. Antoinette became abbess of the so-called "Theresianisches Damenstift" in Prague. Because of her bad health she lived in the last years of her life in Cannes. There she died on 13 April 1883. She was laid to rest in Vienna. Her father Ferdinand IV. loved Antoinette a lot and was devastated after her death.

Antonia's marriage to Rudolf is a rumour, of course. It had been discussed in the Italian section of this message board some months ago.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Vaska_Meow on June 16, 2006, 08:30:09 PM
Rudolf seemed to have the deck stacked against him from birth. That poor family was screwed up eight ways from Sunday.
I've always been a fan of sweet, starry eyed Mary Vetsera, poor romantic little girl. She thought she'd copped the golden prize and ended up with a very troubled Prince Charming and a much too early death, bless her .

(http://[IMG]http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b167/Church_of_Dead_Royalty/LittleMaryV.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 23, 2006, 05:20:40 PM
There is another story about an alleged son of Rudolf ...  ;)

Rudolf got to know Johanna Buska, an actress of the Burgtheater in Vienna, in 1877. Johanna was 11 years older than the Crownprince. When Franz Joseph was informed about their intimate relationship, he made Rudolf leave for Prague where he was supposed to forget his actress. But Johanna, who really seemed to be in love with Rudolf, traveled to Prague, too. In April 1880, Franz Joseph was informed about the pregnancy of Johanna. For the Emperor it was the easiest solution to find a husband for Johanna. So she had to marry Nikolaus Kasimir Török de Szendrö, who was 35 years older than her. Nikolaus was definitely not the father of Johanna's child and if you keep in mind the Emperor's attempts to keep the paternity of this child in secret, it's definitely possible that Rudolf was the father.

Alexander Bernhard Eduard Valentin Kasimir, Johanna's son, was born on February 14th 1881. His step-father Nikolaus died when he was four. Another four years went by and Johanna married Angelo Neumann who worked at the theatre of Prague. After Neumann's death, Johanna returned to Vienna. Alexander, her son, lived in Budapest where he married Sophie Jovanovits in June 1912. No one actually knows what happened to Alexander ... maybe he lived in Budapest for the rest of his life? Marie Larisch - who else, by the way  ::) - claimed to have seen him somewhere in America.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rebecca on June 25, 2006, 02:00:48 AM
[size=14]
Quote
Alexander, her son, lived in Budapest where he married Sophie Jovanovits in June 1912. No one actually knows what happened to Alexander ... maybe he lived in Budapest for the rest of his life? Marie Larisch - who else, by the way  ::) - claimed to have seen him somewhere in America.


According to a source, count Sándor (Alexander) Török de Szendr[ch337] died 12 February 1939 in Budapest. He seems to have been childless. By the way, his mother Johanna Buska married count Miklós (Nikolaus) Török de Szendr[ch337] 20 May (happens to be my birthday  ;D) 1880, and Sándor was not born until 14 February 1881, so Johanna Buska could hardly have known she was pregnant when she married count Miklós. (That is, of course, if the source gives the correct dates.)[/size][/font]
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 25, 2006, 05:08:35 AM
Well, could you tell me the source? Sounds quite interesting ...

By the way: There are nine months between May 1880 and February 1881 - maybe Alexander was a ten-month-baby (just like me  ;)) and Johanna had already known of her pregnancy by the time she married Nikolaus.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rebecca on June 25, 2006, 02:55:14 PM
[size=14]I should have put the link to the source up already, but silly me never thought of it.  :-[ :D Anyway, here it is: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hung/torok4.html If you scroll a little, almost to the end of the page, you will find count Miklós Török de Szendr[ch337] and his (second) wife, Johanna Buska, and also Sándor, of course.

On the picture you posted of Johanna Buska and her son (a charming picture, by the way), I can not really see anything of crown prince Rudolf in the child, but maybe a little of the empress Elisabeth...or maybe I am wrong.  ;) After all I have no idea of what the official father, count Miklós, looked like.

Well, I guess it is possible that Sándor was a ten month baby...  :)[/size]
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 26, 2006, 03:58:53 AM
Thanks for mentioning, Rebecca.

I must confess that I have doubts about Rudolf's paternity. The book Habsburg Intim is nicely written, but I think the author used half-thruths and made realities of them. There is mentioned a lot about possible illegitimate children, wives and mistresses, but usually they don't give sources.

In the book it is claimed that many people told Alexander that there was a great resemblance betweem him and Rudolf ... I can't see it either.  ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on June 26, 2006, 04:11:48 AM
Are there any adult pictures of him (Alexander)?
Then maybe it would be easier to decide :)

Did Alexander think that Rudolf is his father? What did his mother tell him, who he is?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 26, 2006, 04:37:28 AM
Dear Britt,

Chris Stadtlander, author of Habsburg Intim wrote that it isn't for sure that Johanna had told her son about her relationship to Rudolf. In fact, Johanna was the only one who knew if Rudolf was the father of her child or not. I think, if Rudolf was Alexander's father there would be no reason for Johanna not to tell her son about it.

Do you think that Rudolf wanted to have contact to his illegitimate children? Rudolf's cousin Archduke Otto for example had at least one son with his mistress Marie, Alfred von Hortenau, and as far as I know father and son knew each other.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on June 26, 2006, 06:36:42 AM
I must say all these cases of bastards in the history make me always so crazy, because often it is almost impossible for outstanding people to prove the facts that can be found in books or are said by people, often it´s unsecure what is the truth and you do not know what to believe :-X

As you said often half truths seem to be created to full stories. I know many cases of this, also in non-aristocratic circles (the dictators in the 20 th century for example)

But you mentioned the people had claimed that Alexander bore a (strong?) resemblence to Rudolf and had told him this. Which kind of people were this? Did they tell him about the realtionship of her mother, did they know about this at all, or did they simply say it without knowing anything about the relationship?

If really people (who did not know anything about the relationship) recognized Rudolf in Alex. this would be interesting, but I am not sure, because I have never heard of this case.

To the question, if I think, if Rudolf would have liked to have any contact to supposed children...well I don´t know for sure, because until now I haven´t read so much about him, but I have a book "Majestät, ich warne Sie" with original documents and writings of him, and I was so impressed how intelligent he has already been when he was still very young, but he saw very fast the problems of the Habsburg empire, and wasn´t satisfied at all with this. But I think he was such a clever and good person, he would have taken care also of illegitimate children, but I can´t be totally sure. There are certainly people on the message board, who know more about  him and can contribute some more "proved" details concerning this.

Concerning the child of Otto...that´s very interesting, does there exist any picture of this man?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Guinastasia on June 26, 2006, 12:02:40 PM
How did Rudolf and Gisele get along with Marie Valerie?  Did they resent her for being their mother's favorite, or where they closer?  

In some ways, I see them sort of parallel to Carol and Elisabeta of Roumania.  They too were mostly influenced by their older relatives (in this case aunt and uncle rather than grandparents), and weren't too close with their parents.  Of course, Missy was a far better parent than Sissi, whatever her faults.  And Gisele doesn't seem to have been the nasty individual that Elisabeta was.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 26, 2006, 02:42:51 PM
Quote
But you mentioned the people had claimed that Alexander bore a (strong?) resemblence to Rudolf and had told him this. Which kind of people were this? Did they tell him about the realtionship of her mother, did they know about this at all, or did they simply say it without knowing anything about the relationship?

I'm sorry, Britt, but I don't have more information about these people. The original text is: Böse Zungen behaupteten, er [Alexander] hätte seinem leiblichen Vater [Rudolf] sehr ähnlich gesehen ...


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 26, 2006, 02:53:23 PM
Some information about Archduke Otto and his illegitimate children:

Archduke Otto, son of Karl Ludwig and Maria Annunziata of the Two Sicilies, had two well-known mistresses: Marie Schleinzer and Louise Robinson. Otto had two children with Marie, Hilde and Alfred. He even acknowledged them.
When Marie Schleinzer has already been about 40 years old and had this two children, she married Dr. Julius Cohn Edler von Hortenau from Abbazia. Hilde and Alfred were given the name "Cohn von Hortenau", too.
I don't know much about Otto's children. Alfred became a doctor and worked in Abbazia just like his step-father Julius. After WW II, Alfred moved to Sweden and the USA, but in the 1960's he came back to Abbazia to look for some documents concerning his family. He was married two times, his second wife was apparently from Zagreb.
Hilde moved to America, too. When she came back to Abbazia and married Madara Kuczor, she had a shop where she sold flowers. In about 1941 the shop has been closed.
Marie Schleinzer died in 1949 and is buried in Abbazia.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Sissi on June 27, 2006, 08:41:25 AM
Rudolf was sometimes rude to Marie Valerie, he would scare his little sister, Sissi resented that, but I think that his reaction was normal, he was just jealous of the attention and love his little sister got from his mother! An attention and love he lacked!!! Gisela on the other hand married pretty young so I guess there was no real strong attachement, Gisela was a sweet timid girl so I guess if she was hurt at her mother indiference she did not showed it to her sister.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on June 27, 2006, 09:27:56 AM
The 2 sisters seems to have got on rather well but I am not sure they had so much contact, being so apart in age. Valerie was a mere child when Gisela married and left to Bavaria. Valerie apparently admired her sister and thought her a perfect wife & mother.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Guinastasia on June 27, 2006, 12:05:38 PM
You do see pictures of them posing together as young women, which are very sweet.  I'm glad to hear that Gisele turned out so well.  Unlike Elisabeta of Roumania!

From what I've read of Marie Valerie, she seems to have taken more after her father, and was very common sense, practical.  She didn't like to see how her mother treated the rest of the family.

I've also heard that Stephanie liked to cause problems, that she put on airs and called herself the "Rose of Brabant."  True?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on June 27, 2006, 03:35:47 PM
Thanks very much for your infos and pictures, I did not know about this before. Do you also have a picture of the daughter of Marie Schleinzer?
And do you know if her son had any contact to his halfbrother Karl I. of Austria?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Agneschen on June 27, 2006, 04:58:46 PM
It was the Belgian people who called Princess Stéphanie "the Rose of Brabant" (her sister Louise was likewise known as "Belgium's sun"), she did not do so herself. History has been very hard upon poor Stéphanie. She is presented in a caricatural way in almost all the bios I have read on Rudolf. This is very unjust IMO. She was human and had her faults like the rest of us but she was not the nagging opportunistic stupid little princess that has been described. She was proud of her royal birth, believed in the monarchist principle and took her role of Kronprinzessin of Austria-Hungary much to heart and so was despised by her mother-in-law who hated the meaning of the word "duty". I wonder to what extent  has Sisi's dislike of Stéphanie coloured the vision history has of her.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Guinastasia on June 27, 2006, 05:55:01 PM
Well, it was one of those "Royal Scandals" type books, so I don't put a lot of stock in it.  (I just bought it for amusement factor).  

I'm glad to hear that she wasn't as much of a snot as I was told.  It's sad that she got it from both sides-her in-laws AND her own father.  It's probably a contest as to who was worse.

And getting the clap from her own husband like Sissi-double ew.  That would have infuriated me.  Poor thing.  Then being taken from her own daughter.

So sad.  (Gosh, I sound like a broken record-it seems like all these royals had really crappy lives!)


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on June 28, 2006, 02:45:34 PM
Quote
Thanks very much for your infos and pictures, I did not know about this before. Do you also have a picture of the daughter of Marie Schleinzer?
And do you know if her son had any contact to his halfbrother Karl I. of Austria?

I'm sorry, but I've never seen a picture of Hilde.

I don't know if Karl and his half-siblings had any contect. But I don't think so. Maria Josepha and Otto went seperated ways for years. Otto lived with Marie Schleinzer and Louise Robinson in a palais in Vienna. Maria Josepha's residence was the Augarten-Palais where the "Wiener Sängerknaben" live today. Karl and Max spent most of their time with their mother. But as Otto had close contact to his children by Marie Schleinzer, Karl must have known them at least.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 02, 2006, 12:16:58 PM
There is another rumour about an illegitimate daughter of Rudolf by Mizzi Caspar. The child was called Maria and the paternity of this child is not clear until today. Maybe Mizzi didn't know the father of her daughter herself.  ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 02:23:01 PM
Interesting...which fate did the girl have...? What did her mother tell her to be? Did she survive?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on July 02, 2006, 04:16:38 PM
I don't have any information about this child. If she was the daughter of Rudolf, she must have been born between 1886 and 1889. Mizzi died on January 29 1907 at the age of 42. But what happened to her daughter? As far as I know, Mizzi lived with her mother Anna Caspar in Vienna. Maybe she cared about her granddaughter... It would be really interesting to get more information about Mizzi's family...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on July 02, 2006, 04:20:18 PM
Strange...but thanks for the infos, also on the son of Archduke Otto, father of Karl I. Do you have seen any more pictures of Alfred?
I must say this was all completely new to me! :)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 28, 2006, 06:26:42 PM
I would very much like if someone can tell me the info of poor Marie's life, her family and death? I have been watching "fall of the Eagles" and I became intrest in the Hapsburgs and the young Baroness. and some pictures wound be nice too? ;D
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on September 29, 2006, 03:13:35 AM
pictures:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/sv/thumb/a/ab/Vetsera.jpg/150px-Vetsera.jpg)

(http://ancre.chez-alice.fr/mayerling/mv.jpeg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on September 29, 2006, 03:16:42 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/SMROD/MarieVetsera.jpg)

(http://kaiserin-elisabeth.com/images/marievetsera3k.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on September 29, 2006, 03:22:51 AM
some links about marie vetsera:

http://www.eurohistory.com/mayerling.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroness_Mary_Vetsera
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Mayerling

in short, because of the fact that the austrian authorities did everything in their power to make sure that marie vetsera's tracks were covered and that no-one ever finds out she was there, lots of evidence was lost. her body was smuggled in the night, everything was covered up. i don't think we will never know what happened however i doubt rudolf loved her enough to die for their love, as the romantic version says. i think there was much more at stake.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on September 29, 2006, 11:13:46 AM
Wow, thank you all. :D I was surprised that people replied so quietly to this topic. thanks again! ;D
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: KarlandZita on September 30, 2006, 09:01:12 AM
It's interesting to note that Rudolf stuck to a woman completely different from his mother : Marie was not exceptional beauty, was rather strong and had a rather unimportant personality in comparison with that of Sissi.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 30, 2006, 09:04:36 AM
Marie Alexandrine was considered to be a beauty in those days ...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: KarlandZita on September 30, 2006, 09:20:33 AM
Marie Alexandrine was considered to be a beauty in those days ...


Yes, but of very an other type that that of Sissi, it's that I wanted to say ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on September 30, 2006, 10:12:45 AM
I think all of you have already heard the story of Helmut Flatzelsteiner from Linz (Austria) who stole the mortal remains of Marie Alexandrine in 1992, because he wanted to find out what really happend  in Mayerling on that day in January 1889.

No one really knows if the bones which were found in her grave in Heiligenkreuz were the bones of Marie Alexandrine, because relatives of Mary refused a DNA test. Fact is that the mortal remains belong to a woman, about 18 years old, who had been dead for about 115 years. The dress and the shoes found in the grave are from the 19. century.


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on October 01, 2006, 01:31:55 AM
she had a great hair and a pretty nice profile (notice that most her good pictures show her profile). but her face as a whole was not the most beautiful possible.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: KarlandZita on October 02, 2006, 09:02:20 AM
Some photos of Marie Vetsera whom I find particulary beautiful :


(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Various%20Royals/marie.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Various%20Royals/mistress.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Various%20Royals/marievetsera.jpg)

(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i221/pastroyals/Various%20Royals/veil.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on October 02, 2006, 03:48:52 PM
Why are they yellow?  ???
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 02, 2006, 04:45:42 PM
Awsome! thanks everyone for help :)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Elizaveta on October 16, 2006, 02:42:49 PM
I agree that Marie Vetsera was not exactly a great beauty. It just occurred to me that women with dark complexion and a bit of healthy fat on their faces were usually esteemed as the beauties of their days. I mean, Jennie Jerome (Winston Churchill's mother) was a famous beauty of her days, and she did look a bit like Marie Vetsera with her dark complexion...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on October 18, 2006, 05:10:30 AM
unlike nowadays, in the past it was not considered beautiful for a woman to be skinny. at some point fatness was actually considered a sign of good wealth rather that of an unhealthy appetite.

just look at some nude paintings in the renaissance, for example (and not only). i can't see any skinny women in there, most of them would be considered fat nowadays. and yet they don't look at all bad, and i think they looked beautiful to their contemporaries.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Veronika on January 05, 2007, 06:15:00 AM
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/Veronika1837/skenovat0010.jpg)

Rudolf with his family in Prague.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: James1941 on January 27, 2007, 03:32:46 PM
What I find dispicable about Rudolf is that he shot Marie Vetsera sometime early in the night, then spent the hours that followed writing letters. His valet saw him in the corridor singing (or humming) in the morning. There is even supposition that Rudolf had sex with the Vetsera's corpse. In any case I think he was one sick puppy. Austria was probably better off without him.
And I think it interesting that he wrote a sympatheic good-bye letter to Stephanie, whom he supposedly heartily disliked and hated, and none to his father. Evidently the realationship with his wife was not as bad as myth as presumed.
And World War I wasn't inevitable. It was started by Austria. At least it was started by the war clique in the Austria government (Brechtold and Hotzendorf) who wanted a war with Serbia which would supposedly put Austria back in the ranks of the big boys. They lied to the emperor, they lied to their German allies, they lied to their counterparts in Hungary, and they refused all offers to negoiate the crisis. There were any number of times in the two month lead up to the actual fighting where war could have been avoided. These people were war criminals.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on January 28, 2007, 03:16:16 AM
What I find dispicable about Rudolf is that he shot Marie Vetsera sometime early in the night, then spent the hours that followed writing letters. His valet saw him in the corridor singing (or humming) in the morning. There is even supposition that Rudolf had sex with the Vetsera's corpse. In any case I think he was one sick puppy. Austria was probably better off without him.
And I think it interesting that he wrote a sympatheic good-bye letter to Stephanie, whom he supposedly heartily disliked and hated, and none to his father. Evidently the realationship with his wife was not as bad as myth as presumed.

You shouldn't believe in any rumour, James. The story of Mayerling is much more complex. In fact, we don't know what really happened in that night. Besides, a lot of experts believe that Rudolf wrote these last letters months before his death.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on January 28, 2007, 04:29:40 AM
i've mentioned this before, but i read a book that claimed that maria vetsera was pregnant. rudolf had brought her to mayerling in order for her to have an abortion. it went wrong and she died. he felt guilty and killed himself.

just one of many rumours.

i must point out that the austrian authorities have denied any proper investigation on the matter while the habsbugs ruled. which means that up until 1918, the actual evidence (the place, the clothes, the bodies, everything that is usually being studied in a criminal investigation) was not available for anyone. documents about the mayerling affair were also strictly classified and although word was on the street on a lot of things related to it, the newspapers were forbidden to write about it.

this is, in my opinion, the best way to create a rumour mill. the people had no facts so they drew the conclusions themselves from whatever they heard/knew about rudolf, and i think it's safe to assume that most of it was not true. by the time people were able to investigate what happened, the evidence was long gone, the witnesses that were still alive were either quite old, either had an interest to twist the story to their liking, or they simply forgot (it had been almost 30 years, after all). how can you find out what truly happened in those circumstances?

i don't think we will ever know.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: James1941 on January 28, 2007, 01:50:55 PM
It is established today that the doctor who did the post mortem exam on Rudolf reported to Franz Joseph, even though he knew it was not what the emperor wanted to hear, that Rudolf had shot himself. And, Rudolf's valet clearly reported that he spoke with Rudolf in the morning hours (without checking sources, I think it was around 6 am or so) and that Rudolf seemed in a good mood. And I think it is accepted that Mary Vetsera, from the morbitiy of her body, had been dead for several hours when it was examined. Therefore, what was Rudolf doing all those hours that passed between the shot that killed Mary and the shot that took his life? And I don't think Rudolf was the kind of person who would kill himself just because his mistress of the moment had died in an botched abortion. He wasn't that emotionally involved with the Vetsera. And it could have easily been covered up. Besides I don't think enough time had passed between when they first became physical and the suicides. I could be wrong here and will have to compare dates.
And if he did indeed write the letters months before then it indicates he was going to kill himself at some time soon, which conveniently eliminates the theory that he was murdered by----[you can insert who you please here].
In any case, it doesn't deter me from my statement that Rudolf was a not only physically sick but also mentally.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on January 28, 2007, 02:36:50 PM
i've mentioned this before, but i read a book that claimed that maria vetsera was pregnant. rudolf had brought her to mayerling in order for her to have an abortion. it went wrong and she died. he felt guilty and killed himself.

just one of many rumours.

100% a rumor. If she got pregnant by Rudolf, then am sure he and poor Stephanie could have more children. It was after all, Rudolf gave that sexual disease that he gave to his wife and possibly to (and got by) his mistresses as well.

And I agree with James. Rudolf is nuts!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on January 29, 2007, 12:12:51 AM
well, his mother's family had quite a history from that point of view so we definitely can't exclude it. and i'm sure that at best he can be called eccentric...

i was however talking about all rumours about his death and how it happened and why those rumours showed up. i'm sure franz joseph knew what happened and i'm sure a selected few might have too, but franz joseph didn't and the others were not allowed to talk about it. and after thirty years when they were i'm sure a lot of the facts got distorted.

as for:

Quote
Besides I don't think enough time had passed between when they first became physical and the suicides. I could be wrong here and will have to compare dates.

as far as i know one sexual intercourse is enough to produce a pregnancy... which means that if they had had one, she could have been pregnant. and besides, we don't know for sure when their first sexual intercourse happened. yes, there's that ring with the date on it, but no-one has managed to prove what that date means. maybe that was the date they decided they were gonna kill themselves, or the date they became bloodsiblings or whatever...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: James1941 on January 29, 2007, 03:42:47 PM
I perhaps did not explain myself enough. I agree that one sexual encounter could result in a pregnancy.
Let us look at what might be an explanation.
1. There is some testimony that Rudolf was impotent by the time he and Mary began to see each other. This would preclude conception. Unless, Mary's charms restored his potency. A possibility.
2. In a letter to her good friend Hermine, Mary writes that on Jan. 13 she and Rudolf 'lost their heads' and that they were now 'one in body and soul.' Does this indicate the date when they first had intercourse. According to what we do know, the two only met five times between Nov. 5 when they first met in Rudolf's bachelor apartment in the Hofburg and Jan. 13. Neither indicated in letter, diary or conversation of a physical relationship.
3. If Jan. 13 is the first sexual contact, then, there were only 16 days until the suicide at Maylerling. That is a rather short time to have a pregnancy, have it confirmed by a physician, and decide on an abortion, then make all the arrangement to have the abortionist at the lodge.
4. And, if Mary was pregnant and was brought to the lodge to have an abortion performed, and it was botched and she died from bleeding (which is the only way she could have died. Blood poisoning would have taken considerably longer than a few hours. And Mary was very young and healthy, so that would probably rule out heart attack or other sudden death. Just speculation.) then why was it necessary to shoot her in the head. Did Rudolf panic at her screams of agony and shoot her to keep her quiet, what????
5. This, of course, brings up the question of was she shot at all. Supposedly the body found in her grave was found to have a bullet hole in the skull. Controvesry galore surrounds this.
6. And if it had been death by botched abortion, why was Rudolf sitting there during the night as Mary died in agony writing all those letters of good by.
7. And why did he appear outside his bedroom at 6:15 that morning and tell his valet that he would not go on the shoot and to call him at 7:00, and then return to his bedroom whistling. Either he was a cold blooded b.....d, or the abortion scenario is rubbish.
8. And who was the abortionist. His/her presence is nowhere mentioned by any of the people there. I suppose it is possible to conceal someone so completely that no hint has ever arisen. Is it suggested Rudolf tried to perform the abortion himself?
These are just some random thoughts on this theory. Frankly I think that what happened is exactly as most people at the time believed. Rudolf was physically in a severe depression and was ready to die and he found a willing partner. He shot her, then who knows what he did, then shot himself.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on January 30, 2007, 12:13:14 AM
i am going to be the devil's advocate now. before i do that i must state that this is just one of many theories and in no way do i claim that this is the right one. i am just acknowledging a possibility.

the theory was presented in the book of a hungarian writer. i bought it because it looks interesting, but to be honest, it's kind of boring. it doesn't say openly that this happened, rather that it suggests it, so maybe i got it wrong.

unfortunately, i moved a couple of months ago from my parents' place to my own and i haven't taken all my books yet and it seems this is one of the ones i didn't take (probably because it's boring). i mentioned it before so i'll look for the threads on prince rudolf around here and see if the name comes up. until then here's what i remember off the top of my head:

- that letter you mentioned, i believe, was part of a few letters that baroness vetsera presented after her daughter's death; apparently it was written to a friend (hermine? i didn't know the name) in berlin; this particular author said that there was no data on this friend anywhere in the letters: they're all about marie and in none of those is anyone presented with a clue upon who this particular friend was
- the thing about these letters is that they paint a picture of a totally clueless baroness vetsera which makes the author very suspicious about them - how can she not know? the author claims the baroness herself had had a fling with prince rudolf a few years before (she was still quite young) and that in no way she was the virtuous woman she claimed herself to be
- another thing about the letters - and if the quotes the author has given are correct, i tend to agree with him: they are full of signs. marie goes to see rudolf for the first time and a black bird that looks like a raven (messenger of death) stops her on the way, she gets there and rudolf has a skull on his office, etc etc. it's kind of suspicious and it sounds like a made up letter (combined with the arguments above...), made up after she died
- what we DO have is a ring made of iron (i believe, correct me if i'm wrong) that has the date of 13th of january and a few initials (that i can't remember) that marie explains in her letters as 'together till we die' (which the author again sees as an introduced sign); so that date did mean something, and it could mean their first time together but it could also mean the first time they actually spent more time together (as opposed to she coming, them doing it and then she leaving...); the anniversary of the first time; etc etc
- as for the abortion thing, apparently the author found some records that talk about the coming of the medical doctor of the closest army unit (apparently there was one close-by); at some point he makes the subtle observation that (i'm quoting off the top of my head) that 'as strange as it may sound, this army doctor's specialty was gynecology!'
- he also says that when maria was dug up (i believe sometime in the 1940s), people didn't notice any gunshot wound...

this is as much as i remember of his arguments although i believe they were more. what i CAN say about him is that: he does not quote any sources. the only sources he quotes are newspapers of the day, but they are not actual proof rather than a way to measure the way the austrian people judged everything that happened. the rest of the documents are not cited and i'm afraid it's not a book that's completely to be trusted. as i said above, i believe this is a POSSIBLE theory rather than THE theory that will end all theories about rudolf. and personally i don't believe we will ever find out what happened.

now i'll go search for earlier posts to find that book.

edited three minutes later: here's what i found:

Quote
i have found in my bookcase a book written by a hungarian historian called istvan bart. the book is called 'the unfortunate destiny of prince rudolf'. in it it presents an interesting theory. it says that in the last night rudolf called for a doctor from the closest military unit, the doctor responsible for it. it also says that, as surprising as that may sound, that particular doctor was a gynecologist. it suggests that mary was pregnant and tried to have an abortion that went wrong and she died as a consequence... and that rudolf felt responsible (of killing her indirectly) and killed himself. anyone heard of this theory? the book says that it's based on contemporary sources but it doesn't name thme anywhere  :-/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Svetabel on January 30, 2007, 11:27:30 AM

the theory was presented in the book of a hungarian writer. i bought it because it looks interesting, but to be honest, it's kind of boring. it doesn't say openly that this happened, rather that it suggests it, so maybe i got it wrong.


now i'll go search for earlier posts to find that book.



The book you mentioned was by Istvan Barth. :) That's one of my fave's books on a royal person.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on February 09, 2007, 01:35:53 PM
There has always been great myth and rumor about this event in Austrian history. It seems to me there will always be. Rudolph had problems, but I think these can't be used to condemn him, but rather give him some understanding. He needed help he was never going to get, and his blood and background all contributed to what he did, awful as it was. He didn't think, and neither did Marie Vetsera, who I believe was his mistress in a physical sense. She was foolish, he had mental problems, it was a lethal mix. As for World War I, much of the European sitiuation of the last few years before the war led to it, not just Austria. The whole thing was just waiting to explode unto a world that would change because of it. If it had just been an Austrian war, and there had not been much leading it up to it, the countries would not have taken sides as they did once that assasination happened, but that is off topic.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 19, 2007, 07:04:35 PM
"You shouldn't believe in any rumour, James. The story of Mayerling is much more complex. In fact, we don't know what really happened in that night. Besides, a lot of experts believe that Rudolf wrote these last letters months before his death."

Hello Marie Charlotte, do you yourself have any particular theory about what MIGHT have transpired at Mayerling during the night of 29th - 30th January, 1889??

"the countries would not have taken sides as they did once that assasination happened."

Hi Imperial Angel,

to the best of my knowledge, the countries did not "take sides" after the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife in Sarajevo...the system of alliances (Austria-Hungary, Germany and Italy on the one hand and France, Great Britain and Russia on the other) had been in place for several years and they were all well aware of the situation, although Wilhelm II and his chancellor seem to have miscalculated somewhat in thinking that Britain would not bother to react to their blatant disregard for Belgium neutrality. It must also be said that nobody (perhaps with the exception of Sir Edward Gray, the British Foreign Secretary) expected the war to be a long conflict...they expected a short, sharp, decisive exchange, with the troops home before the autumn. How wrong they were!!!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 19, 2007, 07:08:23 PM
Its me again!! I'm just curious to know why the "quote" thingy did not work!! My posting above looks HORRIBLE. DEEP SHAME! Any info or advice would be most welcome (and you thought that owls...even green ones...are wise!! hooo hooo)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 20, 2007, 02:27:44 AM
Hi Greenowl,

Strange that the post with your two different quotations did not work. Maybe it was because you tried to comment two different quotations from two different posts in your answer.
I hope it is allright to you: I have changed your post a bit by using a different writing for the quotations and "(...)", so that the difference to your own post is better to see. I hope you can live with it ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 20, 2007, 03:35:50 AM
Thanks Britt 25!

It looks MUCH BETTER now!

By the way, I think the picture from Veronika of Crown Prince Rudolf and family in Prague is fascinating, as the lady looks, at least to my mind, nothing at all like Crown Princess Stephanie. Obviously the illustrators in the old days had a fair amount of "artistic freedom"...looks as if that particular illustrator never saw the Crown Princess at all, but was working on the basis of imagination!

Thanks again and all good wishes!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 20, 2007, 07:28:47 AM
Thanks for accepting the change...sometimes there are technical problems...it seems so.

In general the picture really looks a bit idealized, also this happy family ambiente, the little baby Marie Elisabeth does not show very individual features, but I think I do see at least a bit of the crown princess in the painting. The face and the style looks a bit like her. I seem to remember that I saw a picture with Crownprincess Stephanie, her newborn daughter, her mother- in- law (Sisi), father- in- law (Franz Joseph ) and her husband Rudolf in a book and there she had very similar features , but was some years younger. It would be interesting to have a huge version of that portrait you mentioned and then consider it. Is there any proof that the artist never saw the Princess? Maybe you are right that it was made "out of the mind", but is there any proof/disproof?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 20, 2007, 05:25:39 PM
Without knowing the origin of the picture, the name of the artist/illustrator etc there is obviously no way to prove or disprove that he/she worked from life or from the  imagination...it was just a feeling I had, as I would never have recognised Crown Princess Stephanie had her name not been mentioned. To my mind Crown Princess Stephanie had blonder hair and a longer face, but having said that, I am hopeless at seeing the likeness or resemblance in people. I have read with great interest all the various posts that discuss the likeness between various Habsburgs, but try as I will, I usually fail to observe it myself. In this whole area the only ones who appear to me to have a clear resemblance to each other are Archduchess Maria Josepha, her son Kaiser Karl I and his grandson, Archduke Karl....I think their resemblance across four generations is really striking.

Once again, many thanks for your help with the "QUOTES" and best wishes!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 21, 2007, 02:51:57 AM
At first I do think that there is a lot of resemblence between the Habsburgs, especially because of the marriages of relatives. But maybe everyone´s feeling is different. I have painted a number of Habsburg pictures by myself and I think indeed they have alot of resemblence over generations. Especially the longish faces and the eyes, which do always appear again, even when it passed a generation. The todays Habsburgs mostly don´t have those typical features anymore, in my view, but they lasted very long. Today marriages of relatives among the Habsburg family members might be rather very rare (I mean not so close relationships like in earlier times, that there might be some same ancestry among them is possible or even likely).
Yes, I think, you are right, that between Kaiser Karl I and his mother Maria Josepha of Saxony there is a great resemblence. It was also fascinating to me to see how Karl resembles for example this uncles (like Friedrich August III. of Saxony) and also some other family members of the Saxony house. For example the already mentioned site" Royalty travel guide" shows a number of Saxony relatives of Karl, who have really his typical features! I think Otto von Habsburg´s son Karl is a mixture of father´s and mother´s side. There are pictures, where he does not resemble Otto very much, but has rather that longer face of Regina. But yes, around the eyebrows there comes the father again. But it´s obvious that everyone sees resemblences of relatives in a different way.
I have here some more pictures/photos of Stephanie (I think they were already posted somewhere here), and also here she looks a bit different on every picture (so I think) . There are pictures, where she has indeed that more longish face (which must come from her Habsburg side= Joseph Anton of Hungary), but there are also ones, especially when younger, where the face is not long. About the hair colour, yes, Stephanie seems to be the only of the three children of Leopold II. of Belgium, whose hair was rather blonde (must also come from her Habsburg mother, father was dark), because Clementine was very dark and Louise as well (so I think)



(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/306.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/56464763.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/stef.jpg)

(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/stefania.jpg)


What do you think about the pictures?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on March 21, 2007, 02:34:22 PM
"You shouldn't believe in any rumour, James. The story of Mayerling is much more complex. In fact, we don't know what really happened in that night. Besides, a lot of experts believe that Rudolf wrote these last letters months before his death."

Hello Marie Charlotte, do you yourself have any particular theory about what MIGHT have transpired at Mayerling during the night of 29th - 30th January, 1889??

"the countries would not have taken sides as they did once that assasination happened."

Hi Imperial Angel,

to the best of my knowledge, the countries did not "take sides" after the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife in Sarajevo...the system of alliances (Austria-Hungary, Germany and Italy on the one hand and France, Great Britain and Russia on the other) had been in place for several years and they were all well aware of the situation, although Wilhelm II and his chancellor seem to have miscalculated somewhat in thinking that Britain would not bother to react to their blatant disregard for Belgium neutrality. It must also be said that nobody (perhaps with the exception of Sir Edward Gray, the British Foreign Secretary) expected the war to be a long conflict...they expected a short, sharp, decisive exchange, with the troops home before the autumn. How wrong they were!!!

Yes, you are right. It was bad phrasing. What I meant was the alliances of all the countries chained them to supporting one another ( and thus against each other as well), so war broke out. I meant they went to war, which was what my phrase '' taking sides'' was. I know they had already taken sides earlier. Thanks for clarifying that for people.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 21, 2007, 05:22:18 PM
Hello Britt! Once again very many thanks...on this occasion for the fantastic photos of Crown Princess Stephanie. I really enjoyed looking at them. I am familiar with the first and third photo, which I think date from the time of her engagement to Rudolf. However, the second and fourth photos are new to me. While I would recognise Stephanie easily in the fourth photo with her little daughter, she looks TOTALLY different in the second photo and I have to AGREE with you that she looks similar to her image in the illustration that we were discussing previously. It is amazing how people can often appear quite different in photos. You mentioned that you have painted portraits of various Habsburgs, so I take it you must be an artist and therefore have a sharp eye for such detail, unlike myself! Perhaps one day you will honour us by presenting some of your Habsburg portraits on this site. I would really look forward to that.

I am not familiar with the Royal Family of Saxony (apart from Augustus the strong), so I had no idea that Archduchess Maria Josepha's and Kaiser Karl's apperance were typical of that side of the family. I will have to visit that website you so kindly recommended. I am really glad that I found the Alexander Palace, as I am learning such a lot of new things.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 21, 2007, 06:05:42 PM
Hello Imperial Angel,

many thanks for your kind words! I hope you did not think I was being critical or anything. I was reading your previous post again and another point struck me, namely the fact that you mentioned that "they (i.e. Rudolf and Mary) did not think". Its true that Mary did not think...she was obviously too much in love with Rudolf to be rational, but Rudolf did think...the events of Mayerling did not just happen on the spur of the moment. Rudolf had been planning his self-destruction in the form of suicide/murder for almost a year, as he originally asked his friend Mizzi Caspar to die with him in the Hussarentemple in Modling near Vienna almost a year before the events at Mayerling. I think his main interest in the unfortunate Mary was the fact that she was the only one who was willing to die with him. Why he needed someone to die with him remains a mystery to me. While I accept that Rudolf was in a poor state both mentally and physically, I don't understand why he had to be so cruel as to kill a teenager so much younger than himself. As a parent himself one would think that he would have shown some concern for the feelings of her unfortunate mother. Another thing I have never understood is how Rudolf managed to escape the constant police surveillance and spend two days in Mayerling relatively unobserved. It seems to me that he was constantly shadowed by police spies or informers. Indeed, on his last night in Vienna he was watched, and the watcher later informed the police president that Rudolf had spent the night with his friend Mizzi Caspar, complete with details of when he entered and left her house (which, by the way, he had purchased for her some years previously). Yet another curious aspect is the assertion of Empress Zita (in an interview with the late Erich Feigl) that Rudolf's death was no suicide, but a political murder instigated on the orders of none other than Georges Clemenceau (later prime minister of France, known as the "Tiger" during the First World War). I have always had great admiration for Empress Zita, but I do find her assertion in this regard rather difficult to accept, and yet the fact that she was a person of such integrity makes it unlikely that she would indulge in naked lies or rank sensationalism...most odd! Anyway, sorry for digressing so much and thanks for your thought-provoking posting!!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 23, 2007, 05:12:02 AM
Hello Greenowl,

Thanks for your friendly comment :D
Yes, Stephanie looks a bit different on every portrait, but the second one, which I posted seems somewhere idealized to me, like the mentioned family portrait. It seems to be a painting after a photo or something. Even between paintings and photos there can be avery huge difference (I depends strongly on the artist!) And no! I am not an artist myself at all! At the university I am a student of history and languages, drawing is only hobby, and my pictures unfortuntely look very childlike, would like to be become better :P I can give to the link to a site with some pictures of me, but here are already some on the forum, which seemed rather to be ignored I think. I have drawn (and still do it!) a lot of family members of royals and statesmen, but it´s only hobby, not more.  ;)
I was not very familiar with the Saxony family as well. But the site www.royaltyguide.nl gives a lot of interesting portraits of Karl relatives from the female line, and his uncles have really his features, there is so much Saxony in Karl, it´s impossible!
And one other question: You told about Zita´s views concerning the death of Crownprince Rudolf. Do you have any interesting source to read about that? I did not know that Zita told in any interview that she thinks that the death of Rudolf was a political murder. Maybe it´s only a suspicion, I don´t think that there is any proof for it. Sometimes people say strange things in interviews, which fundamentally not fit to them at all. There are different examples in history. For me Zita was a very interesting person, who was always from such a deep feeling for the Habsburg family, which she never lost: She never wanted a capitulation after the "fall" of her husband. I cannot imagine her telling lies or something, it´s strange. Can you tell more about that interview, where she told this assertion concerning an alleged murder of Rudolf??
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 23, 2007, 07:20:39 AM
(http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/7f3/StephanieA.jpg)

One more painting (?) of the crown Princess. She looks again different, and very tender, here.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 23, 2007, 05:10:29 PM
Hello Britt!

I have been studying the Royal Family of Saxony and I do agree, Friedrich-August III (the brother of Archduchess Maria Josepha) has an extremely strong resemblance to his nephew, Kaiser Karl! It is incredible! Thanks ever so much for that information. When I have more time I will look at that Royalty website in greater detail.

Do please give me the link to a site with some of your pictures, as I would love to see them. Equally, please tell me where I can find them in the forum, as I have not come across them yet, probably because the forum is so HUGE. It would take months to read through all the postings.

Thanks also for the portrait of Stephanie. It is a lovely portrait, but I fear quite idealised (shows her at her very, very best). Strangely enough, I did not get the impression that the second photo (or at least I was convinced it was a photo) that you included in your previous posting was a painting, as it seems so very life-like, and Rudolf appears extremely realistic, but perhaps Stephanie's features were "touched up", if you know what I mean!

I agree totally with what you say about Kaiserin Zita. Unfortunately I don't have the book in question at present, as a friend of mine who lives some distance away (i.e. 500 kms) borrowed it last November, as she is also a great admirer of Kaiser Karl and Kaiserin Zita. However, as far as I can remember, the book, which is by Erich Feigl, is entitled "Kaiserin Zita. Kronzeugin eines Jahrhunderts". Amalthea, Wien 1989, ISBN 3-85002-277-3. I don't like Erich Feigl's style very much, so I have not read the book recently. The main reason I bought it was because it has absolutely fantastic photos, and for that reason I would totally recommend it. However, as I mentioned in a previous post, the book contains was appears to be an interview with Kaiserin Zita, in which she claimed that Crown Prince Rudolf did not commit suicide and that his death was a political murder masterminded by Georges Clemenceau, with the assistance (I think) of the Comte de Chambord, who was resident in Austria at that time. The whole story sounded like utter nonsense to me and I did not study it very closely, hence I am a bit vague about the actual details. However, I would be very interested to hear the opinion of others on this matter, as such a claim sounds very untypical of Kaiserin Zita....it is not her style at all. I will probably pay my friend a visit in May, and at that stage I will reclaim the book. If you have no further information by that stage I will be happy to translate the relevant paragraphs and post them here...provided of course that it would not be in breach of the copyright laws...perhaps you could advise me as to whether quoting from a book, even in translated form, is allowed???

Cheers! Greenowl
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 24, 2007, 04:14:06 AM
Hello Greenowl,


Zitas opinion concerning the death of the crownprince was really new to me, and ideed it sounds quite strange, that she has said to be convinced that it was a murder or a conspiracy. I always thought that she was a serious and deep religious person, in her mind closely connected with the Habsburgs. There was once a meeting with her, her husband and the German Kaiser Wilhelm II as well as his generals Hindenburg and Ludendorff  here at my hometown Bad Homburg in April 1917 (a former history teacher of mine has written an interesting work on that topic, as they wanted to discuss about peace) and there she was a very clever person in political things and very diplomatic in her behaving, better than her husband Karl- so it was said in the article of my former teacher. And so the reasons for her telling "nonsense" in any interview are really strange and not clear to me. Was she influenced by anybody? However it would really interest me, to get to know more about that. It would be great, if you could post a translated part of the book, where there is more on that topic. I don´t know, if there might be any others, who already know more about this, but for me personally it was/is new, and would surely bring new aspects on that topic, so I think. I don´t know about the copyright rights and so on, but I think, if you only bring some parts of book on our board and write the source under it, there won´t be a problem. Here are more posts, where people have quoted out of book- me too sometimes, but others even more. It would be a pleasure to find the infos from your book here:..I am looking forward ;) In which language is the original verson?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on March 24, 2007, 06:27:50 AM
One of the things about the tragedy of Mayerling that impressses me the most is the ceremony to bury the Kronprniz Rudolf, when he's taken to the Habsburg  crypt.

If I remember correctly, the great marshall, the prince von Hollenhole calls to the door of the Capuccins.

A voice is heard:

-Who is it there?

Von Hollenhole answers:

-His Royal and Imperial Highness, the most Serene Prince, the Archduke Rudolf

And that voice answers back:

-We don't know him.

So the marshall has to call again

-Who is it there?

-The Archduke Rudolf.

-We don't know him.

The marshall calls for the third time

-Who is it there?

-A poor sinner.

-Bring him in.



I don't know if this is just a legend or it is true. I think so, but I may be wrong. Anyway, this scene has a power that shakes me in my inner being.

I have to check some facts about Mary's possible pregnancy. I doubt she was pregnant, but let me check fist.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Veronika on March 24, 2007, 07:56:54 AM
I think that this is true..when the empress Zita died, this ceremony was the same as the Rudolf ceremony.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 24, 2007, 08:45:40 AM
That´s interesting. Was it some kind of custom? Was it also like this, when other Habsburg members died? I must confess, I didn´t know about it before... :P
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on March 24, 2007, 11:48:14 AM
I have not found -yet- what I was searching about Mary's possible pregnancy, but something quite curious. Apparently Hellen Vetsera went to see die Kaiserin Elisabeth. The curious thing is that she, Vetsera, asked the Empress were her daughter was, because the baroness didn't know about Mary for at least the last 24 hours. when the Empress told her that both Rudolf and Mary were dead, Hellen Vetsera asked if her daughter had do so, that his, killing the Kronprinz.

Another rumour mentions Princess Stéphanie -of couse...- asking for forgiveness to the Empress.

And then the odd thing of the different versions of the Mayerling tragedy...

On January 30 it is claimed that the Kronprinz died due to a embolism.

On January 31 it is claimed thatwas due to a heart malady.

On February 2, the newspaper Neue Wiener Taglebatt publishes an article where it is claimed that the Kronzprinz had commited suicide.

So many rumours, so many crazy things...

PD: If I remember correctly, the Imperial Crypt is the Kapuzinergruft of the Capuchin Church in Vienna.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yseult on March 24, 2007, 02:49:43 PM
I have not found -yet- what I was searching about Mary's possible pregnancy, but something quite curious. Apparently Hellen Vetsera went to see die Kaiserin Elisabeth. The curious thing is that she, Vetsera, asked the Empress were her daughter was, because the baroness didn't know about Mary for at least the last 24 hours. when the Empress told her that both Rudolf and Mary were dead, Hellen Vetsera asked if her daughter had do so, that his, killing the Kronprinz.

Good point...The episode Elisabeth vs Helen Vetsera always made me feel shocked. I can imagine the scene...the baroness went to palace pale and nervous, to ask for her daughter who has dissapeared. Helen needed all her courage to "importunate" the empress with her presence, since Elisabeth was friendly with the Vetsera´s brothers, but not with the baroness herself. And, then, the empress told Helen the two lovers were dead. I can not understad WHY Helen had the thought her poor daughter killing Rudolf before her suicide. It´s a strange thing...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on March 24, 2007, 04:29:54 PM
Good point...The episode Elisabeth vs Helen Vetsera always made me feel shocked. I can imagine the scene...the baroness went to palace pale and nervous, to ask for her daughter who has dissapeared. Helen needed all her courage to "importunate" the empress with her presence, since Elisabeth was friendly with the Vetsera´s brothers, but not with the baroness herself. And, then, the empress told Helen the two lovers were dead. I can not understad WHY Helen had the thought her poor daughter killing Rudolf before her suicide. It´s a strange thing...

Yes, that's odd. I reckon that the baroness had a lot of courage: to go to see die Kaiserin at her palace to ask for her daughter is not the thing that anybody would dare to do. Perhaps it was the strenght that despair gives sometimes.

By the way, I need to learn to organize my books and notes. I've found almost everything but the information I was searching for...

For instance, I've found some curious rumours.

-It was said, apparently, that there were four Germans hunters near Mayerling the night of the tragedy. There you have some excuse to talk about a German conspiracy.

-That Mary killed the Kronprinz in a jealous rage and then commited suicide.
-That they were killed by order of princess Stephanie;
-That they were killed by count Hoyos.
-That they commited suicide because they had discovered that they were brother and sister.
-That they were killed by Hungarian revolutionaries.
-That they were killed by the Baltazzis, Mary's uncles, to save her honor.

And so on and so on.

For a second I stood petrified, prisioner of a tremendous doubt: I didn't know wheter to laugh or cry...

...til I remembered all the rubbish about Lady Di.

As we say in Spain, nothing new under the sun, methinks...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 24, 2007, 05:16:57 PM
With regard to the presence of Helena Vetsera in the Hofburg on the morning of 30th. January, 1889. As I understand it, she was a friend of Ida Ferenczy, one of Empress Elisabeth's ladies in waiting. Having had no success with her visit to the police president, Baron Krauss, the previous afternoon (when, accompanied by her brother, Alexander Baltazzi, she reported her daughter's disappearence), she went in despair to her friend Ida, to beg her to use her influence to arrange an audience with the empress. She refused to be sent away and sat motionless, weeping and saying over and over again "only Her Majesty can help me find my child" (I'm quoting from "The Eagles Die" by G.R. Marek here). The "poison" story originates in the fact that when the valet Loschek broke down the door and entered the room to examine the bodies of Rudolf and Mary, in the half light he apparently saw neither gun nor bullet wounds and rushed out and reported to the Prince of Coburg and Count Hoyos "they are both dead, they have been poisoned with strychnine" (apparently strychnine poisoning can cause hemorrhages....no book has yet questioned how or why Loschek possessed that sort of medical knowledge). At any rate, when Count Hoyos travelled to Vienna with the grim news he naturally related the fact that death was due to strychnine poisoning. For some strange reason when told about the strychnine poisoning, Helene Vetsera believed that her daughter had poisioned the Crown Prince. It was not until that afternoon when a medical commission comprising five physicians arrived at Mayerling that the true state of affairs became known, and Kaiser Franz Joseph was not informed until 6h00 the following morning by his personal physician, Dr. Hermann Widerhofer, who had headed the commission. 

There are stacks of rumours surrounding the Mayerling tragedy, one more lurid than the next....I could mention at least 12. The best book on the subject (in my humble opinion) is "Mayerling: The facts behind the legend" (London, 1971) by the late Fritz Judtmann. I think one of the reasons for so many rumours was the fact that the court was dishonest and attempted to "cover up" and conceal the truth, leading to wholesale confusion, especially when they themselves changed the "official" version on a few occasions.

Britt, the book I mentioned by Erich Feigl is in German, and when I get it back I'll be happy to translate and post the relevant information.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 24, 2007, 05:26:09 PM
Its me again!! At the risk of boring everyone with my constant presence, I just wanted to say that the ceremony at the iron gate of the Capuchin Crypt was standard ritual when a member of the Imperial family died and was to be buried in the crypt....although one book I have read suggested that it had fallen into disuse by the time of Franz Joseph's death, and was revived for the funeral of Empress Zita.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yseult on March 24, 2007, 05:34:30 PM
Greenowl...I have not the level of knowledge that all of you seems to have, so, please, tell me...what degree of friendship had between Ida Ferenczy and Helen Baltazzi baroness Vetsera? I feel surprised, since I always supposed a woman like Ida being just the opposite to a woman like Helen Baltazzi-Vetsera. To clarify my point of view...these two woman seems to me like water and oil.
Helen Vetsera had a bad reputation. I remember reading about a good deal of gossip about a brief sexual intercouse between Helen, young wife of baron Vetsera, with emperor Franz Joseph. And also was a good deal of gossip about Helen relationship with crownprince Rudolf when he was a bachelor.
It sounds strange the bond between the serious Ida Ferenczy and the frivolous Helen Vetsera...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 24, 2007, 06:05:59 PM
Hello Yseult!

Good question! To be honest I don't know the answer either. The fact is stated in the book "The Eagles Die" by George R. Marek, but without any explanation. I agree with your assessment of Helena Vetsera. While I don't think she had an affair with Franz Joseph, she certaintly tried her best to attract Rudolf. Another of Elisabeth's ladies in waiting, Marie Festetics, noted in her diary on 03/12/1879 that Franz Joseph commented: "The way that woman goes on about Rudolf is incredible. She chases him everywhere. Today she even gave him a gift". The reputation of Helene Vetsera was so bad that the wife of the Austrian Ambassador in London refused to receive her. Rudolf, however, was not attracted to her charm, as she was too old for him. In view of her behaviour her daughter's fate seems very ironic. I will see if I can find out any more information on the "friendship" between Ida Ferenczy and Helene Vetsera, although I assume it was probably more in the nature of an acquaintance than a friendship as such, and Helene was desperate at that stage and clutching at straws to try to get information about her daughter's whereabouts
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 25, 2007, 02:30:58 AM
Its me again!! At the risk of boring everyone with my constant presence, I just wanted to say that the ceremony at the iron gate of the Capuchin Crypt was standard ritual when a member of the Imperial family died and was to be buried in the crypt....although one book I have read suggested that it had fallen into disuse by the time of Franz Joseph's death, and was revived for the funeral of Empress Zita.

Cheers!

Thanks for clarifying that point. It´s really interesting. You must have a wonderful knowledge about all these things...even when I stink it´s a strange custom, which was described here. Do you know, why it was in disuse at the time of Franz Joseph and then revived for Empress Zita? Was there any special reason? It´s interesting. And yes, maybe the Feigl book could be interesting to me. As I am German, there could be a possibility for me to buy it.... ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 25, 2007, 02:33:45 AM
Good point...The episode Elisabeth vs Helen Vetsera always made me feel shocked. I can imagine the scene...the baroness went to palace pale and nervous, to ask for her daughter who has dissapeared. Helen needed all her courage to "importunate" the empress with her presence, since Elisabeth was friendly with the Vetsera´s brothers, but not with the baroness herself. And, then, the empress told Helen the two lovers were dead. I can not understad WHY Helen had the thought her poor daughter killing Rudolf before her suicide. It´s a strange thing...

Yes, that's odd. I reckon that the baroness had a lot of courage: to go to see die Kaiserin at her palace to ask for her daughter is not the thing that anybody would dare to do. Perhaps it was the strenght that despair gives sometimes.

By the way, I need to learn to organize my books and notes. I've found almost everything but the information I was searching for...

For instance, I've found some curious rumours.

-It was said, apparently, that there were four Germans hunters near Mayerling the night of the tragedy. There you have some excuse to talk about a German conspiracy.

-That Mary killed the Kronprinz in a jealous rage and then commited suicide.
-That they were killed by order of princess Stephanie;
-That they were killed by count Hoyos.
-That they commited suicide because they had discovered that they were brother and sister.
-That they were killed by Hungarian revolutionaries.
-That they were killed by the Baltazzis, Mary's uncles, to save her honor.

And so on and so on.

For a second I stood petrified, prisioner of a tremendous doubt: I didn't know wheter to laugh or cry...

...til I remembered all the rubbish about Lady Di.

As we say in Spain, nothing new under the sun, methinks...


There are surely many people here having a much better knowledge on the death of Rudolf, but these statements that you found really sound like strange rumours, which are hardly possible..Don´t you think so?
How could Rudolf and Marie Vetsera be siblings for example ???
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yseult on March 25, 2007, 02:43:15 AM
Just some questions...

I was wondering WHY Mary´s relatives never made attemps to save her memory after the Mayerling´s tragedy. Of course, they received a strong preassure from the Imperial House, they must to be quiet, they must not to do noise. But times goes by, and...

1.-Helen Baltazzi Vetsera died at Vienna 1st February 1925. When she was an old lady, the Habsburg´s monarchy was faded in history.
2.-Alexander Baltazzi, the oncle who went to Mayerling after the tragedy, was dead in 1914.
3.-Hector and Aristide Baltazzi, the other oncles of Mary, were dead the first in 1916, the second in 1914.
4.-Marie Baltazzi, firstly countess St Julian, later countess von Stockau, aunt of Mary, was dead in 1921.

By the way, a secuence of facts from the point of view of Helen Baltazzi Vetsera:

1.-On 26th January, Helen conceived a strong suspicion about the laison between crownprince Rudolf and Mary when she found a cigarette case that the prince had given to the girl. But Marie Larisch quickly said the cigarette case was a gift she had receive from her cousin and that herself had passed to young Mary Vetsera.
2.-On 28th January, Mary was missing. Then, Marie Larisch told to Helen and her daughter Hanna that Mary had run away. In Mary´s room, the mother found a brief and I think strange note: "Dear Mother, by the time you read this I shall be in the Danube. Mary".
3.-On 29th January, Helen went to the Premier, Count Taffee, to ask for his help. Taffee only became concerned when Helen, in despair, mentioned that Marie Larisch, a niece of the empress, was implied in the elopement of youn Mary.
4.-On 30th January, Helen finally went to the palace and obtained an audience with the empress.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on March 25, 2007, 04:21:04 AM
There are surely many people here having a much better knowledge on the death of Rudolf, but these statements that you found really sound like strange rumours, which are hardly possible..Don´t you think so?
How could Rudolf and Marie Vetsera be siblings for example ???

That's what a I thought. Perhaps it began with the rumour about the possible relation between Franz Josep and Hellen Vetsera and the popular imagination did the rest. Or simply a bored journalist...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Lucien on March 25, 2007, 04:56:44 AM
Its me again!! At the risk of boring everyone with my constant presence, I just wanted to say that the ceremony at the iron gate of the Capuchin Crypt was standard ritual when a member of the Imperial family died and was to be buried in the crypt....although one book I have read suggested that it had fallen into disuse by the time of Franz Joseph's death, and was revived for the funeral of Empress Zita.

Cheers!

Never mind constant presence Greenowl,I think I know how that feels... :P.....but it rides with wear...... :P ::)

You relate to the ceremony in which the Emperors and members of the House are announced at the gate of the Kapuzinergruft for interment?That same ceremony was also in place at Emperor Franz Josef's funeral.Consisted of knocking at the gate three times,upon the question;"Who is there",the first answer was;"His Apostolic Majesty Emperor Franz Josef" followed by all the titles of the deceased,the answer would be;"We do not know him".Then the tiles were toned down,still to no avail as the answer was the same;We do not know him".Upon the third time of knocking at the gate,again the question;"Who is there",came the answer: "Your humble servant Frans Josef",upon which the gate to the crypt were opened.

In relation to the death of Crown Prince Rudolf,do not forget we are talking about a hugely unhappy and frustrated Prince(despite all her beauty,mommy Sissi was much of the same,having the fullblown Wittelsbach streak),and degenerate at that,who's suffering from syphyllus might have been in a stage that severely damaged his brains functioning,in which any streak is possible as they simply turn insane to a fauld.Poor lad?No,not really,he inflicted all by himself,he might have lacked growing up in a loving family,as the very meaning of the word loving was an enigma at the Habsburg Court.In later years,from his adolecence onwards,he was loosing it by mistaken lust for love and by hugely lacking discipline towards responsibily.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on March 25, 2007, 06:42:18 AM
One of the things about the tragedy of Mayerling that impressses me the most is the ceremony to bury the Kronprniz Rudolf, when he's taken to the Habsburg  crypt.

If I remember correctly, the great marshall, the prince von Hollenhole calls to the door of the Capuccins.

A voice is heard:

-Who is it there?

Von Hollenhole answers:

-His Royal and Imperial Highness, the most Serene Prince, the Archduke Rudolf

And that voice answers back:

-We don't know him.

So the marshall has to call again

-Who is it there?

-The Archduke Rudolf.

-We don't know him.

The marshall calls for the third time

-Who is it there?

-A poor sinner.

-Bring him in.


this was the typical habsburg burial. every emperor had the same treatment. it was a way to symbolize the way the habsburgs identified themselves with religion.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 25, 2007, 07:27:22 AM
Has anyone read the book on crownprince Rudolf "Majestät, ich warne Sie" by Hamann?
I haven´t read everything yet, but I have that book, and it´s a quite huge pocket book with lot of interesting works on Rudolf, even from the time, when he was still very very young. It mostly consists of parts of his works, also as ornithologist, his writings, letters, thoughts and critics on his father´s empire and reign, essays and so on. It´s really interesting, and shows a lot about the personality of Rudolf. When I looked into it the first time I was really impressed, because of his adult style of writing and his profound thinking, deep knowlege of history and political things, when he was still a very young boy. The first writing , which is published in the book, is from when he was a little child, where he relates the crowning day of his parents, the latest works are of the time, when he was a young man. He must have been a very sensible, a very very intelligent  and talented man. I was really impressed by his works and essays in the book. He could also draw and had a lot of other abilities. Does anybody know that book? I think it was surely read by others here! Or is anyone interested in further details? For me it´s a fascinating document on the Rudolf´s personality. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on March 25, 2007, 11:27:08 AM
Talking once about the former Empire with a very old Austrian friend of my family, he told me something about the Kronprinz that got me:

-That prince was in love with death.

I was a kid, so you can imagine my wild thoughts about it. Alas, that friend of us died many years ago.

He explained me that scaring legend about Perchta von Rosenberg, a beautiful daughter of Ulrich II. von Rosenberg, the so-called White Lady. Her father married her against her will to Jan von Lichtenstein, a powerful lord of noble rank, and also a violent and boorish man, according to that legend. He was also a widower -bad ommen, methinks...

A life full of uffering began for the poor Perchta. Her father married her off against her will to a von Lichtenstein, a powerful lord of noble rank, but also a violent widower. Her marriage was hell on hearth, as you can imagine. To add more fuel to the fire, in the Lichtenstein castle lived the mother and sister of  the former and deceased wife, who harassed Perchta and took every chance to make her life miserable.
No one could help her, as the morals of the time wouldn't let a wife leave her husband even though he treated her in the worst way.

Howver, death took her husband and she happily returned to parental castle and became the good soul of the castle and kind-hearted patron of those who suffered. But the pain she has experienced left its trail upon her  no one ever saw her smile again. Sad, slender, prematurely faded, with curly golden hair covered by a white veil, she walked through the chambers and courtyards of the castle and watched over her brother's estates until her death. This came as a terrible blow not only for the Rosenberg lords but also for the poor throughout the region. They never stopped mourning for her and soon began meeting her in their dreams.

The White Lady, as they called her, used to appear at the Rosenbmerg castles wearing a simple white dress with keys around her waist and sauntering through the corridors and chambers, prepared to face the future events. A smile on her face was a sign of good tidings whereas black gloves in her hands and a solemn countenance foreshadowed impending disaster or death. The White Lady took care of the children of her family and protected them from harm.

Before I go on, I must add that I've been in some kind of love with this hauting tale and I've tried to gather as many infromation and variants of the leged as I am able.

According to what our friend told me, when the White Lady used to appear when death surrounded the Habsburg. It was seen for the first time when Carlos I (Karl V) died at Yuste. Each time that a Habsburg is going to die, she appears, I was told. She was seen when Napoleon Francis Joseph Charles, King of Rome. and Duke of Reichstadt, son of Napoleon and Marie Louise, Archduchess of Austria, died. She was seenm on that occasion, in the Hofburg. He told me that he gave a peaceful death to those who saw her.

I remember that legend because I read somewhere that the White Lady was seen near Mayerling. Apparently, the archduke Rudolf had killed a white deer some days earlier and the White Lady appeared then, over the pabillion, white, pale, as a mirage.

I think I'm too caught lately by legends... time for me to work a bit...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 25, 2007, 02:08:35 PM
Hi Britt!

Yes, I have read "Majestät, ich warne Sie" by Brigitte Hamann. I borrowed it from the library some time last year. According to no less an authority than Bismarck, the Crown Prince was extremely talented: “His political understanding is uncommon; it astonished me. It proves that in spite of his youth he thinks independently and seriously. We did not always agree, but he knew very well how to make his points and I noticed particularly how circumspectly he did it”. One thing (among many others) that may have depressed Rudolf, was the fact that he believed that the Austro-Hungarian Empire was out-dated and could not survive. On 24/11/1882 he wrote: “Dark and ugly times await us. One can almost believe that old Europe is outdated and beginning to disintegrate. A great and thorough reaction has to set in, a social upheaval from which, after a long illness, a wholly new Europe may blossom…”

Rudolf published at least two books, including a massive work of no less than 24 volumes on the ethnography and history of the Habsburg Empire as well as numerous essays and newspaper articles, most of which had to be published anonymously due to the fact that they were extremely critical of the Emperor.

Unfortunately, while Rudolf had very high principles he had no realistic plan, he yearned for improvement yet plunged to ever lower depths, his great gifts were hampered by equally great weaknesses.


Yseult,

I have checked the book “Elisabeth, Kaiserin wider Willen” by Brigitte Hamann, and she also mentions the fact that on the morning of January 30th. Helene Vetsera entered Ida Ferenczy’s apartment in the Hofburg and refused to go away until she had seen the Empress. “Ich habe mein Kind verloren, nur sie kann es mir widergeben//My child is lost, only she (i.e. the empress) can give her back to me” she sobbed. Again the same facts are stated, but without any explanation.

The note found by Helene Vetsera is interesting. Why did Mary write it? Was it an attempt to put people off her trail and make them look in the wrong place, or was it a subconscious desire to save herself? Seemingly when Baroness Vetsera found the note she interviewed Mary’s maid (who, if memory serves me correctly, was called Agnes) and as Mary had confided in the latter, she was able to give the Baroness information that Mary was with the Crown Prince. In one of her farewell letters Mary requested her mother to “take care of Agnes and her family, as Agnes was so loyal” (or something of that nature). However, the Baroness duly dismissed Agnes as she blamed her for not reporting Mary’s intentions immediately, which might have averted the tragedy.

Helene Vetsera did publish a pamphlet on the events at Mayerling, in particular describing the inhuman burial of her daughter. As far as I know it was confiscated by the authorities. After the fall of the monarchy Helena Vetsera was old, besides which, most of the facts were already known and she probably had little new to add. A sad fact is that Helene Vetsera outlived her four children….her eldest son, Stanislaus, died in the Burg Theatre fire, her youngest daughter, Mary, was murdered in Mayerling, her eldest daughter, Hanna, died in childbirth a few years later, while her youngest son, Franz, was killed in the First World War.

Just a general comment: even assuming the rumour is true and Rudolf and Mary were half brother and sister (i.e. Mary being the result of an affair between Franz Joesph and Helene Vetsera, something I find difficult to believe as Franz Joseph seemed to have chosen women who were discreet, such as Katherina Schratt), what bearing would it have on the events of Mayerling?

Hello Kurt Steiner!

I never heard of the legend about Perchta von Rosenberg before…interesting! The book "Mayerling: The facts behind the legend" (London, 1971) by the late Fritz Judtmann has a whole chapter devoted to “paranormal” (I wonder if that is the best choice of word??) events surrounding Mayerling. I think he mentions the white deer. However, the part of the chapter that I found most interesting was the so-called “Paramatta mystery”, which strangely enough would sort of “fit in” to the claims made in the Erich Feigl book "Kaiserin Zita. Kronzeugin eines Jahrhunderts". Amalthea, Wien 1989, ISBN 3-85002-277-3, that I mentioned previously.

By the way, Britt, if you get the above mentioned book before I do, maybe you could post your impression here….I would be most interested.

Thanks for your comforting words Lucien….but I think I will flap off to my nest now…hoo hoo 

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on April 04, 2007, 12:31:52 PM
Hello, as the book "Majestät, ich warne Sie" by Hamann is very big (even when it is a pocket book) and you know it as well, maybe you can make a suggestion, if we could discuss any special point here. As I said, I have this book at home, but I haven´t read it yet. But I can look for special things, have you read the complete book, Greenowl? It seems so ::)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on April 05, 2007, 06:08:57 AM
Hi Greenowl!

I was told this legend when I was a boy, and I couldn't forget it. As years went by, I couldn't avoid trying to gather more information about it. It is a quite curious thing, indeed.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: ilyala on April 05, 2007, 10:37:51 AM
i have a book about the white lady of the habsburgs, written by paul morand.

it has chapters on the lady herself, the habsburgs and the way they loved (it's a list of habsburgs and marriages they made and the way they went on), a chapter on francis 2nd, on marie louise, on napoleon 2nd, maximilian and charlotte, franz joseph and empress elizabeth (two different chapters), rudolf, franz ferdinand, and a last chapter on karl and zita. not always historically accurate - in the second chapter there's a mention of emperor frederick 3rd marrying mary of burgundy when actually it was his son, emperor maximillian - it's however an interesting read.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on April 05, 2007, 02:05:07 PM
The books sounds interesting as it contains so many different Habsburg marriages and others. Is it in English and how is the chapter on Rudolf? Does it bring new facts, any special opinion on his death? And, well it´s bad, if I have understood you correctly, the author has made some mistakes? I know such cases, when a book is good in general, but then suddenly there are parts where the author did not work properly...or didn´t I understand it correctly? :P
However the topics sound interesting! ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on April 06, 2007, 05:55:54 PM
Hello Britt 25!

With regard to "Majestät, ich warne Sie" by Hamann: It is an extremely interesting book and illustrates Rudolf's liberal views. I especially enjoyed Rudolf's account of his visit to Palestine, his criticism of the catholic church (in the form of the cardinal archbishop of Prague), the account of how he "unmasked" a famous medium (unlike his mother, Rudolf had no interest in the "paranormal"), his belief in the necessity of the army and the need to retain German as the main language of the army, and his somewhat negative opinions of the German Empire. When I am next in the library I will see if I can borrow the book again. Rudolf comes across as extremely knowledgable, critical and liberal. However, his various writings (or at least those contained in the book) offer no hint whatsoever of the reason for the tragic events of Mayerling. I think Hamann also wrote a biography of Crown prince Rudolf, and I look forward to reading that at some stage. The Paul Morand book sounds interesting...thanks for the tip! I must add it to my "wants" list
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on April 07, 2007, 06:37:44 AM
IIRC, Rudolf and Princess Stephanie of Belgium had only a daughter, Archduchess Elizabeth, notably became a communist in later years and was dubbed the Red Archduchess.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: grandduchessella on April 07, 2007, 02:02:47 PM
That's true. 'Erzi' has a thread of her own if anyone wants to read or discuss more about her.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on April 08, 2007, 02:43:01 AM
Hello Britt 25!

With regard to "Majestät, ich warne Sie" by Hamann: It is an extremely interesting book and illustrates Rudolf's liberal views. I especially enjoyed Rudolf's account of his visit to Palestine, his criticism of the catholic church (in the form of the cardinal archbishop of Prague), the account of how he "unmasked" a famous medium (unlike his mother, Rudolf had no interest in the "paranormal"), his belief in the necessity of the army and the need to retain German as the main language of the army, and his somewhat negative opinions of the German Empire. When I am next in the library I will see if I can borrow the book again. Rudolf comes across as extremely knowledgable, critical and liberal. However, his various writings (or at least those contained in the book) offer no hint whatsoever of the reason for the tragic events of Mayerling. I think Hamann also wrote a biography of Crown prince Rudolf, and I look forward to reading that at some stage. The Paul Morand book sounds interesting...thanks for the tip! I must add it to my "wants" list

I see, I should finally read the whole book! I was very amazed, how well he could write and how deep his interests and talents were already at a very young age. He also made fine drawings and botanical works.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on April 08, 2007, 02:09:53 PM
Yes indeed! Rudolf's (first??) biographer, Oskar Mitis, wote that "for once, fate might have put a philosopher on a Habsburg throne". That was probably putting it too hopefully, but Rudolf was extremely gifted. He read Descartes and Voltaire, studied botany, ornithology, geography, physics, sociology, history and economics (the latter under the famous Austrian economist Carl Menger). In addition to German he spoke French, English, Hungarian, Polish and Czech. In his account of his visit to Palestine in "Majestät, ich warne Sie" by Hamann, he relates meeting an elderly monk in Jerusalem. The monk had been in the Holy land for many years but was originally from Prague. The monk was surprized, delighted and touched when the Crown Prince spoke to him in Czech, and said that he had never expected to hear his native language again.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on July 21, 2007, 10:25:49 PM
hi greenowl
do you know the title of the book by oscar mitis?and is it in english?
thanks
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on July 22, 2007, 06:06:43 PM
Hi Newfan,

the title of the book by Oskar Freiherr von Mitis (1874-1955) is "Das Leben des Kronprinzen Rudolf". It was originally published in 1928 and again in 1971. I don't think it has been translated into English, but I stand open to correction on that. Perhaps somebody out there has seen/read it in English?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on August 04, 2007, 08:08:44 AM
thanks for letting me know ..ill search for it,
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 04, 2007, 12:48:11 PM
My pleasure, Newfan. Always glad to be of assistance. Good luck with your search!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 05, 2007, 06:20:50 PM
I was in Mayerling many (i.e. about 20) years ago but found it a bit disappointing. As it was converted into a chapel and convent by Kaiser Franz-Joseph after the tragic events it is difficult to imagine what it must have been like when it was a hunting lodge. I did not see the statue you mention....sounds a spooky coincidence all right. There is a similar odd coincidence in Heiligenkreuz (where Mary Vetsera is buried). A year or two after the tragedy in Mayerling Helene Vetsera decided to have a mortuary chapel built in the grave yard at Heiligenkreuz in memory of her daughter. She commissioned a stain glass artist in Vienna to design a window for the chapel in which the Virgin Mary had the features of Mary Vetsera. When the Abbott of Heiligenkreuz heard about this he was most displeased and said that on no account would he permit such a window to be displayed in his abbey. The window was duly "redrawn", with the Holy Virgin surrounded by two kneeling angels who bore the features of Helene Vetsera's two dead children, Ladislaus and Mary. Towards the end of the Second World War Russian Artillery was positioned in Alland, not far from Heiligenkreuz, which was in the line of fire. The mortuary chapel suffered a direct hit....the windows were badly damaged: the Virgin was shattered but strangely enough, the two kneeling angels with the features of Ladislaus and Mary survived the Russian barrage....
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 05, 2007, 06:42:39 PM
As far as I can remember, the only feature that survived from the original hunting lodge was the bedroom door, which can (or could, when I visited Mayerling over 20 years ago) be seen in the wall high up behind the main altar. Despite the tragic events that took place there, I felt Mayerling was somewhat lacking in atmosphere. On the occasion of my visit I was shown around by an extremely elderly nun who seemed rather embarrassed at having to relate details of the tragedy and attempted to gloss over the facts by comments such as "well, you know what I mean"...fortunately I was familiar with the history of Mayerling, so I knew what she meant, but had I not been, it would have been rather confusing. However, I trust things have changed since then
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on August 12, 2007, 03:38:25 AM
There is a similar odd coincidence in Heiligenkreuz (where Mary Vetsera is buried). A year or two after the tragedy in Mayerling Helene Vetsera decided to have a mortuary chapel built in the grave yard at Heiligenkreuz in memory of her daughter. She commissioned a stain glass artist in Vienna to design a window for the chapel in which the Virgin Mary had the features of Mary Vetsera. When the Abbott of Heiligenkreuz heard about this he was most displeased and said that on no account would he permit such a window to be displayed in his abbey.

I'¡ve found this,

(http://aeiou.iicm.tugraz.at/aeiou.photo.data.image.fw33/fw17616v.jpg)

http://aeiou.iicm.tugraz.at/aeiou.photo.data.text.fw33/fw17616v.hts

It is the tomb of Mary Vetsera? Is it at the Heiligenkreuz? Apparently, yes, but I find quite curious that the monks allowed a tomb for a women in his lands. Anyway, life makes some unexpected twists, from time to time.

It's a quite moving tomb

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/MaryVetseraGrabtafel.jpg/180px-MaryVetseraGrabtafel.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on August 12, 2007, 03:54:43 AM
As I've been out of touch lately, I can only relate this in the vaguest way. So, I apologize for it.

A couple of weeks ago I read that, when Mary Vetsera's boy was stolen from the cemetery at Heiligenkreuz and recovered, the police, to ensure they had the correct remains, asked the Viennese Medical Institute to examine them. They did confirm that they were the correct remains but they noted also that the skull contained no evidence whatsoever of a bullet hole  ???. and suggested she may have been killed by a series of violent blows to the head. IIRC, something similar has been suggested about Archduke Rudolf's body, and, perhpas my memory is betraying me, that the gun was fired five or six times -what for?-.

It's curious, now I remember a British documentary, Fall of Eagles, I think it was called, about the collapse of the Romanov, Habsburg and Hohenzollern dynasties. It's curious how, in such a brief period, all the royal and imperial eagles were removed from their thrones. How curious.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 12, 2007, 06:34:00 AM
This is a another picture of Mary's gave.
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8052/i002632xr6.jpg)

lost photo taken of her she burnt the dress she was wearing in the photo.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/Larisch-%26-Vetsera.png)

the place were Mary poisoned herself and commited suicide with Rudolf. It is very sad and insane thing to do such a thing at a very young age.
(http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/5544/i002642qf0.jpg)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 12, 2007, 06:42:39 AM
Some more pictures of Mary Vetsera.
http://www.mayerling-archiv.de/galerie/gal_per/per_vet_01_f.htm
http://www.vetsera.at/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: MarieCharlotte on August 12, 2007, 08:03:18 AM

the place were Mary poisoned herself and commited suicide with Rudolf. It is very sad and insane thing to do such a thing at a very young age.


Mary poisoned herself?  :-\ I think you got something wrong.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 12, 2007, 08:12:44 AM

the place were Mary poisoned herself and commited suicide with Rudolf. It is very sad and insane thing to do such a thing at a very young age.


Mary poisoned herself?  :-\ I think you got something wrong.
Yes I think I did.! :-X I am uncertain as to how she died.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Nika on August 12, 2007, 03:00:19 PM
There is a picture or painting of Rudolf's dead on which he's laying in opening coffin with bandage over his head. And also in the book of B. Hamann " Empress Elisabeth" is a chapter of Rudolf's tragedy, and  Gisela made a description about her brother's funeral. Also she was telling something about the bandage. So, the gun's theory is very possible, but of course nothing in 100%.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on August 12, 2007, 03:41:51 PM
There was nothing curious about it at all. Wars and revolutions have always caused problems for the survival of regimes.

The dinamic of history, as some may say. We play with the advantage that the knowledge of history gives us. But, for those who lived the period, to be the witness of the end of an empire which had lasted so long as the Russian or the Austro-Hungarian -or even the Otoman fall, the Old Man of Europe- would came as a shock.

As D.H Lawrence wrote: "The cataclysm has happened, we are among among the ruins."
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kurt Steiner on August 12, 2007, 03:49:27 PM
the place were Mary poisoned herself and commited suicide with Rudolf. It is very sad and insane thing to do such a thing at a very young age.


Mary poisoned herself?  :-\ I think you got something wrong.
[/quote]
Yes I think I did.! :-X I am uncertain as to how she died.
[/quote]

As Dmitri as said, the general theory goes on more or less like that. First Rudolf shoots Mary Vetsera. Some hours went by and then he kills himself. It's something odd, to be side by side the corpse of your beloved, so many theories were suggested -for instance, that Mary was pregnant and died while giving birth, something out of the question as it was impossible.

Of course, there is. too,  the theory suggested by Kaiserin Zita which talks about the two of them being murdered -the conspiracy theory and its many versions. However, it seems that it is quite vague and there are few facts supporting it.

In short, this is quite complicate, so, in due time, I'll try to go over thi issue again, just to clarify this a bit, because I'm afraid I've made a mess of all of it... :-[
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 12, 2007, 09:21:39 PM
Mary was not poisoned. There is a well known photo of Rudolf dead on a bed with his head bandaged.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 12, 2007, 10:01:13 PM
The real tragedy of world war one was the russian mobilisation and the inability of Nicholas II to understand the telegrams of warning from Wilhelm II. The whole situation should have remained a minor war between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. There was no need for it to go any further. Nicholas II in his stupidity caused it to become a much larger conflict. It was an extremely hostile act to mobilise the Russian army on the borders with Germany.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Olishka~ Pincess on August 13, 2007, 09:04:49 AM
Mary was not poisoned. There is a well known photo of Rudolf dead on a bed with his head bandaged.
Yes I sseen the photo! I know Mary she was not poisoned it is just uncertain as to how she died.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 13, 2007, 05:36:25 PM
Either a bullet or a severe bashing over the head seems the most likely.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 14, 2007, 06:54:23 AM
Kurt Steiner and Dmitri,

I was interested to read the posts in which you refer to the curious claim by Empress Zita that Crown Prince Rudolf was murdered. Where did you hear about this (i.e. what are your sources) and can you explain how the murder is supposed to have taken place?

I touched on this topic in the forum on around 21st. March last. At that stage I wrote that Empress Zita asserted (in an interview with the late Erich Feigl) that Rudolf's death was no suicide, but a political murder instigated on the orders of none other than Georges Clemenceau (later prime minister of France, known as the "Tiger" during the First World War) with the assistance (I think) of the Comte de Chambord, who was resident in Austria at that time. I have always had great admiration for Empress Zita, but I do find her assertion in this regard rather difficult to accept, and yet the fact that she was a person of such integrity makes it unlikely that she would indulge in naked lies or rank sensationalism...most odd! The interview in question is contained in a book by Erich Feigl, entitled "Kaiserin Zita. Kronzeugin eines Jahrhunderts". Amalthea, Wien 1989, ISBN 3-85002-277-3. I don't like Erich Feigl's style very much, so I did not read the book in much detail. The main reason I bought it was because it has absolutely fantastic photos, and for that reason I would totally recommend it. A friend of mine borrowed the book last November and I have not got it back yet. As the whole story sounded like utter nonsense to me I did not study it very closely, hence I am a bit vague about the actual details. However, I would be very interested to hear more exact details as well as the opinion of others on this matter, as such a claim sounds very untypical of Kaiserin Zita....it is not her style at all.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 14, 2007, 08:24:19 AM
I read about what Zita had claimed in 'The Last Empress' by Gordon Brook-Shepherd. He writes on p.320-321,

"In March 1983 , the academic world was startled by a series of interviews with her appearing in the Vienna tabloid paper, the 'Kronenzeitung', on the imperishable romantic drama, the double death at the Mayerling shooting-lodge on 30 January 1889, of the Austrian Crown Prince and Maria Vestera. Romance, the Empress declared, had nothing to do with it. Rudolf had been murdered by foreign agents because he had uncovered an international conspiracy to overthrow his father, Emperor Francis Joseph. That the dead man had penned half a dozen convincing suicide notes, including one to his plain, long suffering wife Stephanie; that foreign agents would have needed to have been Houdinis to get in and out of a bedroom whose door and windows were locked from inside; that Rudolf already stricken with venereal disease, was killing himself anyway with drugs and general disipation; that Francis Joseph was doing nothing in 1889 (by which time he was already passive politically) which would have driven any foreign power to entertain the lunatic notion of trying to dethrone him - all this, together with the detailed medical and police documentation extant on the tragedy was overriden by one argument. This was that a Christian burial for the dead man would have been impossible had he really been a suicide and a murderer. (There was, in fact,  away around this obstacle, namely that the prince had been insane when committing the act. This, in all probability, was the theological escape route taken, though the urgent exchange of messages between the emperor and the Pope on the tragedy has been missing for more than a century. That was not the only thing missing.

To a friend who wrote asking for the historical basis of her statement, she sent a dictated reply, (her eyesight was now very poor):

"Alas, all proofs, that is documentary proofs, have either disappeared or cannot be found .... But the surest proof is that it would have been out of the question in those days for a suicide to be given a Christian burial, and the Vatican at first immediately forbade this. Only after a detailed telegram had been sent to the Vatican by the Emperor Francis Joseph explaining the situation was permission for the funeral given."

No serious historian has ever accepted this foreign murder scenario which, indeed, caused some private embarrassment amongst the empress's family at the time. But her motive in putting it forward seems plain. The Mayerling affair was the darkest of all religious blots on the Habsburg family escutscheon. To wipe it clean might in some way help the last Habsburg ruler to make that escutscheon shine with sainthood.   

Historically convincing or not, the mere fact that she had given those interviews the most rewarding happening of her final years, the reunion at long last with her Austran homeland."
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 14, 2007, 08:46:37 AM
Thanks Dmitri!

It really is most odd and it appears that she gave these interviews in order to speed up her late husband's progress to sainthood ("The Mayerling affair was the darkest of all religious blots on the Habsburg family escutscheon. To wipe it clean might in some way help the last Habsburg ruler to make that escutscheon shine with sainthood"). It contradicts my otherwise extremely high opinion of Empress Zita, although she was  very old at that stage and perhaps a little confused. What do you think?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 15, 2007, 08:35:09 AM
I did not read the interview with the Empress but read several books by several authors about the Mayerling incident. I did see all 3 movies available to me in the US (1935, 1955 and 1962 versions) and all were highly romantic and to say the least rather fictional.
The last book I read was by a Viennese journalist which dealt with the 'grave digging' furniture salesman and the investigation of the remains of Mary Vetsera. It also mentioned the lockbox that was given to the current Archduke and came from Canada.
Now, a lockbox is mentioned in 'My Past', by Countess Larich, given to her by Rudolf and later handed to Archduke Johann of the Tuscany Habsburg branch. He told Larisch that he would die without dying........ Later, when he was known as Johann Orth, it was alleged he drowned while sailing the Cape but his remains were never recovered. So, I wonder if this box, which, according to Larisch and the Archduke, contained papers pointing to a political matter that would have......? Maybe Rudolf DID intend to accept the Stephan's Crown and it was murder after all.
What I do not understand in this day and age is why the current Habsburg House is not 'clearing the books', why not tell the world what was in this box handed over to the current Archduke, why all this mystery, why all this secrecy. :-\
It seems not much has changed in the past 100+ years.
This family was not kind to its own, it destroyed the life of so many members of its own.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 15, 2007, 10:07:48 AM
I think apart from her family, the life of former Empress Zita was rather pathetically sad. She was obsessed with her defunct position and the hope of a Habsburg restoration which clearly never was going to eventuate. Instead of finding the possibility of marrying again and having some personal joy in life, she remained almost like a nun for the rest of her life after losing her husband. That to me although understandable is only half a life. Fancy being a widow for so very long - over 60 years!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 15, 2007, 03:24:09 PM
Yes, it is a pity that Archduke Otto does not make some statement to clarify the situation in view of his mother’s claims in those interviews.

I have never heard the term “lockbox” before. There was some mention (but it may be only hearsay) of “a brown leather etui” that was said to be in the possession of Kaiser Karl. It was opened after the downfall of the dynasty in 1918 and found to contain nothing of interest.

I have never read the book “My past” by Countess Marie Larisch. However, Marie Larisch does not have the greatest of reputations and also very definitely had “an axe to grind” with the Imperial family, thus while the book undoubtedly contains elements of truth I would tend to treat many of Marie Larisch’s more dramatic claims with a great deal of caution.

To the best of my knowledge, Emperor Franz-Joseph entrusted all the sensitive documents pertaining to the Mayerling affair to the then prime minister (who was also his childhood friend) Count Edouard Taaffe. Count Taaffe is said to have stored the papers in the library of his castle at Ellischau (Nalzovské Hory, Czech Republic). Count Taaffe retired as prime minister in 1893 and died a few years later as a result if heart failure. His son Heinrich inherited both the castle and the papers it was reputed to contain. Count Heinrich Taaffe later claimed that there had been a fire in the castle and that the papers along with other contents of the library were destroyed. He sold the castle in 1937 and moved to Ireland, from where the family originally came. Countess Zoë Wassilko-Serecki (a cousin of Taaffe by marriage and by coincidence the granddaughter of Baron Franz Krauss, the police president at the time of the Mayerling tragedy) claimed that Heinrich Taaffe showed her the papers in October 1919 before deliberately burning them. She made an official statement about it in 1955 (her statement can be found on the Internet).

It may well be that such papers never existed or were destroyed shortly afterwards. The diary of Archduchess Marie-Valerie (and I assume she did not write it to add to the fabric of lies surrounding the death of her brother) tends to support the accepted (or most plausible) version of events… i.e. suicide, the reason for which is unclear, even to the Imperial family themselves. Five years after the event Marie-Valerie is still hoping that some light would be shed on the situation and explain why Rudolf had to die like that.

I agree that the family was not kind to its own, but sadly I think that this reflects the situation in many families, both then and now, and the Habsburgs, in my humble opinion, do/did not have a monopoly on such behaviour, although obviously their actions were on a grander scale.




Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 15, 2007, 08:29:49 PM
Well poor Rudolf was badly effected by a sexually transmitted disease. He also charmingly passed this on to his wife Stephanie which is the reason she could have no further children. No wonder that couple were estranged from one another. His brain and whole body was effected by the disease. Rudolf also was a drug addict. Sooner or later he would have succumbed to his illness and perhaps his tragic end was the best solution. As for Marie Vestera perhaps she did believe his lies or simply was totally out of her depth and knew death was the only way they could continue to be together? She must also have acquired from Rudolf the same disease as Stephanie so she would have not been able to be involved in any other relationship successfully. She seemed to be a foolish young woman with ideas above her station in life and paid the ultimate price for her folly. As for Otto becoming involved in the Mayerling debacle, why would he wish to do that? He probably knows very little, if anything about it. After all it happened many years before his birth and all he could possible contribute would be heresay unless he has access to relevant documentation. I wish I could get my hands on Marie Larisch's book even if it is highly biased. It would certainly be a most interesting read. She had the misfortune of not having acceptable rank although she did for a time move in the charmed circle of her Aunt and the Habsburgs. I was always lead to believe she had an affair with her cousin Rudolf and was his cast off. She was wonderfully portrayed by Geraldine Page in 'Mayerling'. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 16, 2007, 08:25:25 AM
dmitri, I agree with you in regards that the Habsburgs did not have a monopoly on family relations, but I do believe if Rudolf had been raised with the 'problems' in mind his mother had and would have been allowed to continue his education at a University instead of being forced to become a soldier, he would have made a grand Emperor! He was intelligent, a great writer and scholar. I did read Brigitte Haman's biography on him, hope to find more later, but it became obvious that if Rudolf, as a child and a young adult, would have had the proper emotional nourishment and love, it would not have ended this way. He was a lot like his mother in character, she dealt with it by running away, he dealt with it different and slid down the slope of life. I really feel pity for him, no matter what his sins were, and yes, there were plenty...........

As to the book 'My Past'; I am aware of Marie Larish's bone to pick with the Imperial family, but there is nothing really in this book that degrades them. The last part deals with the Mayerling incident and THEN it becomes a whitewashing of her involvement in this whole affair. I do believe she was at one point in time involved with Rudolf and was desperate to hold on to her involvement with him. She claims that Mary Vetsera already was involved with Rudolf when she came across this family.

The book 'Crime at Mayerling: the life and death of Mary Vetsera' by Georg Markus, details all the 'hoopla' about the grave robbing of the final resting place of Mary Vetsera and speaks about a metal box that came from Canada. It was discovered by ???? and then forwarded to Otto, who in turn turned it over to someone else in the family. Otto aknowledged the receipt of this box, but he would not indicate what the content was. That is his right as the head of the family.
The etui with Rudolf's papers was in his desk and was confiscated by Taaffe.

There are still so many questions unanswered. Will we ever know the full truth? I do not believe so.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 16, 2007, 08:59:30 AM
Yes aor I tend to think the truth will not be revealed. The same will probably be the case for Archduke Johann Salvator, the one time owner of Schloss Orth in the lake at Gmunden in Austria. I read a fabulous book on Johann Salvator and Rudof called "Clash of the Generations". It was so hard to put down.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Vecchiolarry on August 16, 2007, 09:12:47 AM
Hi Dmitri,

Just a slight correction to one of your posts -

Genevieve Page, not Geraldine Page portrayed Countess Larisch in "Mayerling"....  And, I agree, she did a marvellous job.

Larry
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 16, 2007, 09:43:55 AM
Yes aor I tend to think the truth will not be revealed. The same will probably be the case for Archduke Johann Salvator, the one time owner of Schloss Orth in the lake at Gmunden in Austria. I read a fabulous book on Johann Salvator and Rudof called "Clash of the Generations". It was so hard to put down.

dmitri, who is the author? Does this book give any insight in the 'alleged' Hungarian uprising? I'll look for this book.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 16, 2007, 09:48:44 AM
Is this the book by Lavender Cassels? If so, there are several copies available on Amazon. I'll order it.
Thanks for recommending it. Always interested in finding different viewpoints and information.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 16, 2007, 11:00:48 AM
Will try to pull it off the shelves tomorrow for you.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 16, 2007, 01:35:05 PM
 What source material indicates that Rudolf was dying from a sexually transmitted disease? The only reference that I know of is from Archduchess Stephanie’s book “Ich sollte Kaiserin werden” (Leipzig, 1935), in which she writes “I myself did not suspect the cause of my complaint. Everything was hushed up on orders from above and the doctors were sworn to secrecy. Only later did I discover that the Crown Prince was responsible for my complaint”. I would be interested to hear what other primary sources there are.

 According to Judtmann (who studied the records of prescriptions at the imperial pharmacy) and Marek, while Rudolf probably contracted a gonorrhoeal infection at the age of 28, it is fairly certain that he did not have syphilis. The infection he passed on to Stephanie was curable, as she married again (although of course she could have no further children) and both she and her second husband lived to an advanced age. Rudolf’s health had deteriorated, but he was far from being “at death’s door” in 1889 and on the evidence available I don’t think we can speculate that he would have died within a short time.

How did the metal box (or its contents) get to Canada?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 16, 2007, 02:08:28 PM
Greenowl, it is also mentioned in Briggitte Hamann's biograpy, but I believe she referenced the Crown Princess diary. I would have to look it up.

I too would like to know how this metal box got to Canada. Could it be that Johann Salvator/John Orth truly died without dying, as was mentioned in Larish's book? Is this the metal box she wrote about and she handed off to Johann Salvator after Rudolf's death? Did Salvator/Orth end up in Canada or the US?
IMO too many loose ends, but answers will be impossible to come by.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 16, 2007, 03:31:37 PM
I have never read Brigitte Hamann's biography of Crown Prince Rudolf, but would love to do so, as I really enjoyed her biography of Empress Elisabeth. Aor, have you ever read Fritz Judtmann's book "Mayerling: the facts behind the legend"? Although it was written in 1968 (the English translation dates from 1971) I would totally recommend it. There is also a newer book by Camillo Schafer (I can't remember the exact title) that deals with the question of the so-called American Duel. It was well written (the background detail was good) but the conclusion was not very convincing.

Johann Orth was en route to South America when he disappeared, so perhaps he somehow made it to Canada? I heard recently that a Norwegian court was studying the question of whether a man called Siegfried Köhler who died in Norway in 1945 was actually Archduke Johann....I don't know any other details such as whether they carried out DNA tests etc...and it may be a hoax. Did anyone else hear anything of that nature?? Perhaps they should ask Norway's Princess Martha Louise to intervene, as apparently she runs a school that teaches people to communicate with angels...... (I jest not!). Anyway, interesting to hear if anyone knows about these claims from Norway pertaining to Archduke Johann/Johann Orth.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 17, 2007, 01:28:07 AM
Sorry I never heard of that at all.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 17, 2007, 08:04:09 AM
Greenowl, I'll try and track this book down. I also did not hear about the Norwegian claim, but it would be interesting!

For those of you that have not read 'My Past' by Countess Larish, here is a copy:
http://world.std.com/~raparker/exploring/books/my_past_fax_20020429.html

As I have the book, this text is more or less complete, what is missing is mostly non important stuff. I do have to say that the book contains some very unusual photo's. There is one of a young Marie Wallersee with one of the Empress' circus horses at Goddollo (please excuse this spelling as I can't find my book om how to do it properly). If I can figure out how to scan and post, I will.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 17, 2007, 11:51:00 AM
Thanks aor, I've already started to read "My Life". I'll let you know what I think of it. I had no idea that there were actual books on line! If you could post those photos it would be super, as I have never seen any of the Empress' circus horses and would be most interested, as I love horses and have a special interest in "Habsburg" horses (in particular Kladrubers).

Thanks again!
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 17, 2007, 12:32:54 PM
I'll see if I can figure out the posting of the picture and I'll post them. If not I assume there is someone on this board that can guide me.
Curious as to what you think about this book, I just wished that there were more books online, especially the books that are rare and hard to find.

off topic: glad to meet another horse lovers as I am also one of those...... I have American Saddlebreds and Hackney Ponies, but love all equines.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 17, 2007, 03:06:33 PM
Thanks aor. Unfortunately I cannot give you any advice/information about posting photos, as I have no idea how it is done.

I have spent about two happy hours reading "My Past" on line. Several parts are very familiar as they have been quoted by other authors, sometimes without mentioning the source (for example the description of Rudolf as a wolf). One inconsistency that I noted was that Marie Larisch claims that her father, Ludwig, was Empress Elisabeth's favourite brother. However, it is generally accepted that Carl Theodor (known as "Gackel") was Elisabeth's favourite. Anyway, I shall continue reading (it should take me a few days to finish the book) and will let you know what I think, especially about the Mayerling saga, which seems to take up a great many pages.

Delighted to meet another horse lover and pleased to hear that you have American Saddlebreds and Hackney Ponies. Having had Wurttembergers and Selle Francais I now have a Kladruber and am so impressed that I am thinking of getting a second one.....just to stay somewhat on topic, I note that Kladrub and Pardubitz are mentioned in "My Past"!!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on August 18, 2007, 05:52:50 AM
As promised details on the book about Crown Prince Rudolf and Archduke Johann Salvator!!

Clash of Generations by Lavender Cassells - Camelot Press, London, 1973 

It's an excellent read and has loads of information on Mayerling and the disappearance and pre-disappearance of Johann Salvator
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 21, 2007, 04:47:59 PM
 I have read “My Past”, which I enjoyed very much. However, with regard to the Mayerling tragedy, it is very difficult to untangle what actually happened from what Marie Larisch claims happened. Nevertheless, there are a few inconsistencies that do not agree with the generally accepted version of events. (1) Dr. Widerhofer was not present in the Hofburg when Count Hoyos arrived from Mayerling with the tragic news. Hoyos first broke the news to the Lord Chamberlain of the Crown Prince, Count Bombelles. Together they went to see the Empress’ Lord Chamberlain, Baron Franz Nopcsa and the Emperor’s Aide de Camp, Count Eduard Paar. Then Baron Nopcsa broke the news to Empress Elisabeth, who was having a Greek lesson (Marie Larisch incorrectly claims that she was doing gymnastics at the time). (2) Franz-Joseph never went to Mayerling. He sent a court commission of five physicians, headed by Dr. Widerhofer, to Mayerling, where they arrived on the afternoon of 30th. January. (3) The claim that Helene Vetsera had no money seems odd, as all the evidence points to the fact that she was wealthy, and also that her brothers were extremely wealthy. However, Marek states that both Crown Prince Rudolf and Helene Vetsera gave money to Marie Larisch, and it was “known” that she was often in debt due to gambling and that she attempted to hide her gambling debts from her husband. (4) Mary Vetsera was not buried on the evening of 31st. January, but at 9h30 the following morning. (5) Countess Larisch never accompanied Alexander Baltazzi to the police headquarters. She went alone to talk to Baron Krauss on the afternoon of 28th January and told him that the idea of suicide should not be taken seriously. Krauss kept the minutes he made of that meeting. Later she wrote Krauss two almost incoherent letters, obviously due to the sudden realisation that something was very wrong and that she was deeply implicated. (6) Her description of Helene Vetsera’s behaviour and attitude contradicts Helene’s own testimony in which Helene claimed not to be aware of the situation (difficult to know who is telling the truth there).

A point that has often been made about “My Past” is that Marie Larisch is extremely critical of others…she paints a very nasty picture of Helene Vetsera, of Rudolf and indeed of her aunt the Empress. This has been attributed to her wish to “take revenge” on both families. Obviously it is very difficult to judge objectively at this remove. In this regard I have heard it said that her claim that the Empress had bad teeth was a total fabrication and that Elisabeth’s dental records prove otherwise (although the Empress’ teeth may have been discoloured as she was a heavy smoker).

What I enjoyed was the description of the wedding nights of her aunt and grandmother….they sounded revolting!!!

In view of the above-mentioned inconsistencies it is difficult to take her claim about the box and Archduke Johann seriously, although I suppose we will never know for sure, as it is equally impossible to prove that it did not happen.




Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 22, 2007, 09:18:22 AM
Glad you enjoyed the book. I did too. However, I kept in the back of my mind Countess Larish 'reputation'. I did find her tale amusing, nothing really bad was said about her aunt but I agree with you that she whitewashed the whole Mayerling affair.
We do not have any first hand knowledge about what really happened and who lied and who did not, but to me it is just another account about what happened, to be compared with the other accounts and maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on August 22, 2007, 12:50:57 PM
The interesting thing about the various accounts is that apart from Mary and Rudolf (who both died) Marie Larisch was the only one who really knew what happened between the time she collected Mary from her mother's house  and Mary ended up in Bratfisch's carriage and was transported to the inn where she and Bratfisch were joined by Rudolf.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on October 12, 2007, 07:55:35 AM
I viewed the movie Ludwig II last night (again) and realized that this movie was a really good one! The characters seemed real and it showed the Empress Elisabeth as a human being. Not the portrayal I have seen in other movies, not sugar sweet, but real in words and action.
I wonder why this type of in-depth movie can't be made about the Habsburgs. Most all of us have seen the Sissi Trilogy and it was sweet and innocent and history took a beating........... Would love to see a movie being made that took a page out of the Ludwig script and shows the later years of FJ, Elisabeth and their family, their sorrows, their thoughts, their struggles. I think there would be enough information available on how it was!
Well, one can dream!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Silja on October 28, 2007, 01:06:11 PM
I've now finally seen the long version of the film about Rudolf, and I must now admit that it was passable. I'm a lot less contemptuous now than I was after watching the horrid short version. In this original version the political dimensions and Rudolf's frustrated attempts for change were given some consideration. Rudolf's ever more desperate situation became more credible. Moreover, this time Brandauer's Franz Josef appeared a lot less insipid to me. I wouldn't necessarily agree that Clavier's Taaffe made him look as if he wasn't aware of things.
As before I very much liked Sandra Ceccarelli's aloof, wistful and cynical  Elisabeth. Although a bit too Italian looking, Ceccarelli comes close to the empress in terms of looks. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on November 06, 2007, 10:58:02 AM
I have watched the movie now 3 times and bit by bit I see things I missed before. It is all in all a decent version, still think they could have done a better job with the hair colors and the portrayal of MV, Larisch, Stephanie and FJ. Absolutely liked the portrayal of Taaffe, Mitzi, the Empress Elisabeth and Rudolph. The movie gives a good insight in who he was and what he was thinking, the intelligence and the understanding of the political situation. I do believe, not just from this movie, that Rudolph would have made a fine Emperor if only they had not killed him!

Question: was the movie seen in Europe also English spoken?? If so, I think part of the problem is the fact that these actors native tongue is not English and when things are said, the intonation is not right. I would have liked to have seen in the German Language.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on November 06, 2007, 01:48:12 PM
I'm not sure who you mean by "they" killed Rudof. Most accounts state that he killed himself. As for Rudolf making a good Emperor, he was a very sick man indeed. It is to be doubted he would have lived until 1916 to then succeed Franz Josef. Rudolf had veneral disease and was also a drug addict. These two do not assist a person to be physically or mentally well. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Linnea on November 06, 2007, 02:37:34 PM
Question: was the movie seen in Europe also English spoken??

It was shown in German here.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on November 13, 2007, 10:33:59 AM
hmmmm... strange. The copy I have is in English and it is not dubbed. At first I thought it was, but by reading lips, I figured out it was not. When I am in Europe next month, I'll watch the German version. As I said before, some of the intonation is strange!

dmitri, I should have put 'killed him' in quotes. No, they did not take a gun and shot him, but they also did not help him. In my native language we have a saying that "emptiness is the devil's bedpillow". I have read a number of biographies and no, not the tattle-tale ones, but written by genuine biographers. I believe he was a very intelligent person and if his mind would have been kept occupied and would have been allowed to explore and be sharpened, he would have made a great Kaiser! IMO.... :)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on January 10, 2008, 07:14:36 PM
.

clicki on images for larger version


the courtyard of the Mayerling hunting-lodge, as it was during Rudolf's lifetime.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingcourtyard.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingcourtyard.jpg)

the original layout of the Mayerling hunting-lodge.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingsiteplan.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingsiteplan.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlinggrndfl.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlinggrndfl.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling1stfl.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling1stfl.jpg)

the hunting-lodge transformed into a Penitential Convent, it's occupants praying day and night for the salvation of Rudolf's soul.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingasconvent.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingasconvent.jpg)

.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: gleb on January 15, 2008, 02:59:24 AM
Thanks Brian!!

Wonderful plans as always, I am  very interested in Rudolph's life, so thanks :)

BTW do you have a plan of his rooms at the Hofburg? It is difficoult, but one never knows...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: brnbg aka: liljones1968 on January 15, 2008, 04:13:04 AM
Thanks Brian!!

Wonderful plans as always, I am  very interested in Rudolph's life, so thanks :)

BTW do you have a plan of his rooms at the Hofburg? It is difficoult, but one never knows...



here you go :-)

click on image for larger version

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/hofburg_rudolf_apt.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/hofburg_rudolf_apt.jpg)


the arrow (upper left side of the foto) indicates where the apartments were.    today, the same windows look into a courtyard.
the arrow on the right side of the foto, indicates the iron door baroness Vetsera used to enter the Hofburg.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/hoburgexterior1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/hoburgexterior1.jpg)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: dmitri on January 15, 2008, 06:58:59 AM
This is all very interesting. Think I recorded somewhere my impressions of Mayerling and the Chapel there. The bed of Rudolf where the double murder occurred is right where the main cross in the chapel is now and in the lady chapel the face of the madonna is the face of Elisabeth his mother with a dagger in her heart. It is very macabre. Then again visit the crypt of the Capuchin Church in central Vienna and you will find it is very spooky.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: gleb on January 15, 2008, 10:30:46 AM
THANKS SO MUCH!!!! :)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: gleb on January 15, 2008, 10:33:19 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/gleb/hf-ri_g-a-10.jpg)

Turkisch room
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: gleb on January 15, 2008, 10:35:26 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/gleb/hf_si_d-e-10.jpg)


This one should be the room where Kaiser Franz died.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: gleb on January 15, 2008, 10:38:18 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/gleb/hf_si_e-a-10.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: gleb on January 16, 2008, 07:07:07 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/gleb/hf_si_d-c-10.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: gleb on January 16, 2008, 07:10:03 AM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/gleb/hf_si_d-a-10.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: toddy on March 06, 2008, 08:26:17 AM
I have a few questions maybe someone knows?? did princess Stephanie ever stay or visit meyerling? and just an observation but Rudolf didnt seem to be concrened with having large castles and homes like Franz ferdinand . meyerling was pretty small . also does anyone have any more pictures of meyerling ??  any comments?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: erzsi on March 06, 2008, 01:44:28 PM
well i think rudolf had small castels because he was not very rich, Franz Ferdinand had more money because he get it from the last member of the House Mondena (Franz V) he died 1875. Franz Ferdinand get money and castels in Mondena, Rom, Venedig and vienna.
You can see pictures of mayerling at  www.mayerling.at and www.mayerling-archiv.de
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 07, 2008, 09:29:53 AM
Thank you for the interesting links!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Queen Victoria on March 07, 2008, 09:47:00 AM
Mayerling Hunting Lodge

(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/0/02/225px-Mayerling01.jpg)

(http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/meow/mayerlg.jpg)

(http://www.travel2austria.com/i/mayerling1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: toddy on March 08, 2008, 07:42:06 AM
yes! thanks for those links! 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Lucien on March 10, 2008, 09:03:05 AM
Extensive site,in german,about facts,and speculation is prohibited....what a wonderfull idea... :-X:

http://www.mayerling.info/mayerling_archiv.htm

Courtesy Lars Friedrich.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 10, 2008, 07:39:03 PM
did princess Stephanie ever stay or visit meyerling?

Yes, it is on record that the Crown Princess stayed in Mayerling on at least one occasion (but probably not more than two, as she was not very fond of the place). When I have more time I will post the exact details (date of her stay etc).

With regard to residences: Crown Prince Rudolf owned, among other abodes, the island of Lacroma, near Ragusa on the Dalmatian coast.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: toddy on March 11, 2008, 07:01:24 AM
thanks!!!   any more information you have is greatly apreciated!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on March 11, 2008, 09:13:35 AM
My pleasure, toddg!

Crown Prince Rudolf bought various properties in Mayerling between 1884 and 1886 and had them renovated and "joined together" to form the hunting lodge, which comprised three wings around a court yard, plus a tea pavillion, bowling alley and newly built stables which were described by contemporaries as "luxurious". The new hunting lodge was officially opened with a hunt on 19 and 20th. November 1887 in the presence of the Emperor and Empress. I assume that the Crown Princess was present on that occasion, but I am not certain. Between November 1887 and the tragic events of 29/30 January 1889 the hunting lodge was only used on ten occasions. In that period the Crown Princess stayed there twice. Archduchess Elisabeth (Erzi) stayed there between 1st and 17th. June 1888 when recuperating from an illness, but without either of her parents. An interesting fact is that Count Hoyos and Prince Philipp Coburg were present on all (or almost all) the occasions on which the hunting lodge was used.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 27, 2008, 05:16:37 PM
I don't want to start a new thread about this, but has anyone seen the movie "The Crown Prince"? I just watched it the other day and trying to figure out where they got some of that stuff... According to this film, Rudolf used to dress up as a regular guy and sneak out of the palace. On one of these adventures he met an orthodox Jewish girl in the Jewish part of town and started seeing her. They fell in love, and when the girl's parents found out who he really was, they forced this girl to marry someone else, so she died of a "broken heart". Rudolf then was also broken hearted and he wanted nothing to do with women again until he was forced to marry Stephanie... And then he took up with Marie Vestera of course... The Vetsera affair was made into this very idealistic and romantic thing... Marie wanted to die rather than to be forced into marriage with another man... Also according to the movie, Rudiolf had an affair with Marie's mother and she was jeolous when she found out that he now took up with her daughter...

To me all this sounded like a bunch of nonsense... Is there any truth at all to any of this?  ???
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on May 28, 2008, 06:29:42 PM
I have not seen the film "The Crown Prince". However, the incident with the Jewish girl is apparently true, as it is mentioned in Brigitte Hamann's biography "Kronprinz Rudolf" on page 151. It took place in Prague when Rudolf was stationed there in approx 1878 and Rudolf was so upset and depressed when the girl died that he had to be treated by the "Nervenarzt" Dr. Moritz Benedikt, whose daughter later wrote about the incident.

There is no truth in the suggestion that the Crown Prince had an affair with Mary's mother Helene Vetsera, although it has to be said that the latter did all in her power to gain his attention, even giving him expensive presents. Equally, to the best of my knowledge, Rudolf had plenty of women between the death of the Jewish girl in Prague (whose name is not mentioned by Hamann) and the tragic events of Mayerling. His favourite appears to have been Mizzi Caspar, to whom he left a large sum of money. Did she not appear in the film?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Helen_Azar on May 28, 2008, 06:59:18 PM
His favourite appears to have been Mizzi Caspar, to whom he left a large sum of money. Did she not appear in the film?

Yes, she was in the film too, but they kind of presented her a good friend with "benefits", not idealized relationship along the lines of the Jewish girl (Sara) or Marie Vetsera. The Vetsera relationship was really idealized.

Thanks for the info, Grenowl! I had no idea that the Sara incident may have been factual, it seemed so "Hollywood".
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on May 29, 2008, 03:46:44 AM
No problem Helen A, glad to be of assistance. Incidentally, when Rudolf went to Brussels in March 1880 to become engaged to Stephanie, he was accompanied by a suite of 22 persons, including his current lover, a pretty young Jewish actress from the theater in Baden bei Wien.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: tom_romanov on October 11, 2008, 07:59:59 AM
i know this topic has been discussed before but the last post was on the 16th January 2008 , so i decided to start a new topic. so here it goes does anyone have any pictures of the room in Mayerling that Rudolph and Mary died in ?

thanks
Tom
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on October 11, 2008, 03:07:51 PM
I am not sure that any photos of the room exist, only a few "artist's impressions" and a drawing by Professor Fritz Judtmann based on the plans and Loschek's account. The plans of the Mayerling hunting lodge can be seen in the "Rudolf and Mary (Marie) Vetsera" thread. The hunting lodge was converted into a convent a short time after the tragedy on the orders of the Emperor, thus the infamous room plus the room immediately below it are now a church. You will find more details in some of the other threads pertaining to Crown Prince Rudolf and Mayerling.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: tom_romanov on October 11, 2008, 04:19:32 PM
thanks Greenowl, will I be able to find the artist impressions there aswell? if not could somebody please post them :)

thanks
tom
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on October 14, 2008, 10:24:23 AM
I don't think that the artist's impressions are there, but as it is a very extensive thread I may be wrong. Take a look anyway, as it is extremely interesting.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Barbara of Hohenzollern on November 05, 2008, 07:17:26 AM
A very interesting page( Forum) about Mayerling, but it is in German   :( I hope you can find out something there. Go to :Die Orte' and then to :'Die Sterbezimmer', there are they sketched, On this page you can find many informations!

http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mayerling.de/images/start2.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.mayerling.de/home.htm&h=305&w=329&sz=61&hl=de&start=17&um=1&usg=__sNkOhHhip-JzI40Fo0ozDtmFblM=&tbnid=VmHxnt-APPRFiM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=119&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmayerling%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dde%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_deDE245DE245%26sa%3DN
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: tom_romanov on November 06, 2008, 05:35:13 AM
thanks for the link Barbara , its very useful
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: gogm on December 03, 2008, 02:22:45 PM
Leon Wilnitsky is selling a portrait of Maria Vetsera and posted images of it. The images follow:
(http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/41826/2601132300094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2601132300094285158lfFSia) ,

(http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/40636/2956653930094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2956653930094285158hiAutu) ,

and
(http://inlinethumb54.webshots.com/40309/2314363710094285158S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2314363710094285158VXWbLP) .
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 03, 2008, 08:48:45 PM
hi
What happened to Johann Loschek after Mayerling?Did he ever say anything about the night?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on December 04, 2008, 03:51:50 PM
As far as I can remember, Johann Loschek was pensioned off shortly after the Mayerling tragedy. He never made any comment about the events of that night until 1928, when he dictated his memories to his son. However, his account contradicts that of count Hoyos and other witnesses on several points and does not appear to be an accurate description of the facts. This may be due to the fact that Loschek was an old man at that stage (he died in 1932) so perhaps his memory had failed him, as with the monarchy no longer in existence there seemed to be little reason for him to deliberately lie or attempt to cover up the truth. My personal opinion is that Loschek knew a great deal more than he ever admitted and even at the time of the tragedy he did not reveal the full truth about the sequence of events.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 04, 2008, 07:32:34 PM
Thank you Greenowl
where was he from and do you know where he lived after?i am guessing he was polish?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 04, 2008, 08:05:52 PM
hi everybody i think this link is great about the tragedy that happened that night
http://www.funtrivia.com/en/subtopics/The-Mayerling-Tragedy-179560.html
hope the facts are right
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on December 05, 2008, 07:53:14 AM
Hi Newfan,

thanks for that link! The facts as stated in the document are basically correct, with just a few minor inconsistencies. Three that I noticed were: (1) Rudolf asked Mizzi Caspar to join him in a suicide pact over a year before the Mayerling tragedy, and I have never heard the Ringstrasse mentioned as the place for the suicide, but rather the so-called Hussaren Temple at Modling near Vienna. (2) The letter that Rudolf is supposed to have written to the Pope requesting an annulment of his marriage has never been found in the Vatican archives, nor has the reply (or a copy of the reply) ever been found, thus it is generally considered to have been a legend, i.e. there does not seem to be any physical proof of the existence of such correspondence. (3) Princess Zita (later Empress Zita) was not Rudolf's aunt, but the wife of his cousin's eldest son....I don't know what that makes her...a second cousin by marriage or something?

Johann Loschek was born in Wiener Neustadt, the second largest town of the province of Niederösterreich (Lower Austria), situated about 50 kms south of Vienna. He died in a small town in the same area. As the Austro-Hungarian Empire had so many different nationalities the names were very mixed and it was not unusual for people to have Czech, Polish and Hungarian family names. The name Loschek actually sounds a bit Czech to me!

I am sure that Loschek knew a great deal more that he admitted. He must have heard the shot that killed Mary Vetsera, as he was supposed to be sleeping in a small room next to that of the Crown Prince and actually claimed to have heard Mary and Rudolf talking all night. It is also odd that someone (Bratfisch or Loschek?) told the huntsmen not to bother preparing for the hunt that day as it would not take place. This information was given before Loschek broke down the door in the presence of Count Hoyos and Prince Philip. I also find it odd that Loschek was so quick to jump to the conclusion of Strychnine poisoning as the cause of death....seems strange that he would have had that sort of knowledge, as it is not something that would instantly occur to me. It makes me think that he was aware beforehand of what was going to happen and was acting according to a plan devised by Rudolf, but later became afraid of the consequences for himself if he admitted the truth, and tried to conceal what really happened, thus further confusing an already complex situation....just my humble opinion.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 06, 2008, 10:30:37 PM
hi greenowl
and thank you for the reply ...i just finish watching The Crown prince ,the 2 part series...in it its shows Rudolf being in love with the Czech Jewish girl while he was is Prague .I have not hear that story yet(cant remember her name)...Also I didn't know that Mary Vetsera's mother Helen was trying to merry her of to Miguel of Braganza?
thanks again
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on December 07, 2008, 12:30:51 PM
Hi Newfan,

I have not seen the film "The Crown Prince". However, the incident with the Jewish girl is apparently true, as it is mentioned in Brigitte Hamann's biography "Kronprinz Rudolf" on page 151. It took place in Prague when Rudolf was stationed there in approx 1878 and Rudolf was so upset and depressed when the girl died (Hamann does not mention her name)  that he had to be treated by the "Nervenarzt" Dr. Moritz Benedikt, whose daughter later wrote about the incident.

I had heard that Mary Vetsera's mother Helen was trying to marry her to Miguel of Braganza. I think Mary may even have written a farewell letter to him and left him a feather boa!! At any rate, in one of the farewell letters from Mayerling Rudolf wrote as a PS "Cheers, Waterboy", "Waterboy" being the nickname of Miguel of Braganza. Seemingly he got the nickname because at a hunt he wore a bright red scarf around his neck which was similar to the kind worn by the men who watered the "Fiaker" horses in Vienna, and these men were known as "waterboys"!!!

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 07, 2008, 04:01:10 PM
thank you greenowl!!i didnt know but i have the book from Brigitte Hamann..i bought so many on my trip to prague that now i have to go and read them..lol
Have you read The mayerling murder by victor wolfson?if yes what do you think?..just got it
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on December 08, 2008, 03:38:23 AM
Hi Newfan,

No, I have never read "The Mayerling Murder" by Victor Wolfson. Let me know what you think of it when you have time to read it!

Best wishes,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 08, 2008, 02:44:54 PM
i definitely will
thank you for all your knowledge!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on December 08, 2008, 04:45:25 PM
Thanks Newfan!

It is always a pleasure to talk to people with the same interests!

Best wishes,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 09, 2008, 03:51:29 PM
greenowl
I just got a book (dont have it on me now)letters of emperor Franz Josef to Katharina Schratt...have you read it?what you think of it?
is there a bio of Gisela his doughter?
thanks
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on December 09, 2008, 04:48:40 PM
Hi Newfan,

no, unfortunately I have never read  the book containing the letters of Kaiser Franz Joseph to Katharina Schratt...have you read it yet and if so, what do you think of it? As far as I know, from the few extracts I have seen of the letters, they are very "ordinary" ...i.e. about day to day matters and do not contain any dramatic revelations and the Emperor comes across as a very humble and gentle sort of man, but as I said, I have only seen a few extracts and not the entire correspondence. Needless to say, I will be interested to hear your view.

I have never heard of a biography of Archduchess Gisela, but perhaps someone else might know if it exists.....

By the way, I was in "You Tube" a few days ago and was amazed to discover that someone has posted recordings (two) of Kaiser Franz Joseph's voice and one of Kaiser Karl's voice. It is nice to have access to such recordings! (Sorry for going off topic!!).
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Valancy on December 09, 2008, 05:37:09 PM
I must have quite a different taste in women's beauty than most of the posters here, because I find Mary Vetsera very beautiful and can see why Rudolf found her attractive. I have never cared much for the skinny and polished type that is considered beautiful nowadays. I think Mary's looks have a lot of personality and I find it preferable if a woman has some flesh on her bones instead of being thin as a stick. (Though I do find the Empress Elisabeth beautiful as well, but she could have done with some more meals!) That's just for Mary's looks, though; I don't care for her personally, what little we can know of her personality, and I tend to be irritated when she is made into some great tragic romantic heroine and her and Rudolf's relationship into a great love story. I doubt Rudolf would have been interested in her for very long, had she not been foolishly in love with him enough to die with him before their relationship could last long. She doesn't seem to have been particularly intelligent or had any great force of personality that should be interesting in the long run. I do feel sorry for her, of course. As much as I like Rudolf, convincing a teenage girl foolishly in love to die with him was pretty twisted and shows how badly his mental health had deteriorated then...

It's interesting that Rudolf generally seems to have been drawn towards women who were a very different type from the mother he idolized. Mizzi Caspar, his favourite mistress, was also a curvy-and-pretty type (though more elegant-looking than Mary). We can't know much of her personality, but I guess she seems to have been a fairly earthy, life-loving type, not the kind of fanciful creature that Elisabeth was.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mari on December 09, 2008, 11:39:04 PM
Actually she looks slender or medium build in the photo on the first page. I would not call her heavy...and I agree with you in some of her photo's she is very nice looking. However to Men She may have also held charm or other appeal that add to beauty. I am talking abut the photo in which she has a ribbon or something like it around her neck. Below KarlandZita posted a close up of her face in the same photo.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Princess Susan on December 10, 2008, 01:46:17 AM
Hi Newfan and Greenowl,

I read letters of Emperor Franz Josef to Katharina Schratt and I found it very interesting how perhaps all Hammans books.
The book contains a lot of interesting, nice and funy letters. Of course, there are also a lot of ordinary letters about daily metters, but definitely not only that...
I remember especially one very funy letter by Emperor, when he was jealous to Katharina, because Tsar Ferdinand of Bulgaria visited her. He complained how he felt ill,
had fever, cough...and no fancy go out. I had to laugh, when I read it.
And also very touching letters, when he thanked her for consolation in gloom (death of Rudolf, Elisabeth).
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 11, 2008, 12:03:57 PM
hi greenowl
I got the book by chance in a bookstore...its prety thick and its just letters so i have not got in to reading it.
i am looking for the link or how its the link on youtube spelled?can you send it to me?
i am typing
emperor franc joseph !...nothink comes up
oh and one more thing ..in the movie about Rudolf
they show his mother ..the empres showing him her tattoo..on her shoulder,i think its a tattoo of a anchor..is it true???did she really get it i cant picture 1880 years and a woman her statue to get a tattoo...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 11, 2008, 12:07:24 PM
oh i think i got it ...the link is in german thats why ..is it this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jecUwMPk8pE
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on December 11, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Thanks for that information Princess Susan! I had heard about the letters where he thanked her for consolation in times of sadness (e.g. the deaths of Rudolf and Elisabeth).

Hi Newfan,

yes, that is the correct link...I think I typed in "Kaiser Franz Joseph" (i.e. in German).  To be honest, I never heard about the Empress having a tattoo of an anchor on her shoulder. As you say, it seems very unlikely given the era and her position, but as Elisabeth was a surprising women I suppose anything is possible. Has anyone else heard about the Empress having a tattoo?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on December 12, 2008, 12:46:29 PM
thank you ladies!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: tom_romanov on December 14, 2008, 02:47:44 PM
i heard about some noble lady have a tattoo of an anchor on her shoulder but i didn't know it was the empress? but then Jeannie Curchill had a tattoo of a snake on her wrist
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: oscarov on January 05, 2009, 11:27:43 AM
I want to comment to them on my investigations on the life of Prince Heredero Rodolfo de Hasburgo, mainly on the events of years 1878 and 1881, in which I walk wanting to know more of that one boy than supposedly it had with Maria Antonieta de Toscana or the actress Johanna Buska, I have had contact with hystoriers, I am thankful to them little or much that could help me. Creanme that according to the information which I have successfully obtained in my family, with historians, Georg markus, people in Europe, are very important for me and my family, totally I am convinced that my great-grandfather was the son of Prince Rodolfo and its premium Maria Antonieta… that I can have You, I promise to participate more than can, I have photos of my family by far similar to the family of prince Rodolfo, in my family exists a sword with a dual shield, and since I have reason use I know that decendemos of a very important prince of Austria, I am 6 years old investigating, I have a contact in the USA that says that his grandfathers could be son of Franz emperor Joseph (another subject). I request support, I believe to them that it could be a very interesting subject, example: if my great-grandfather were son of Rodolfo de Hasburgo, means that in my family we counted on the chromosome " Y" of father to son, consecutively, in line decendente, it means that pudieramos to have the chromosome " Y" of many Hasburgos… Hopefully and it interests and we pruned to clarify many subjects to them of that real family of the Hasburgo that as much gets passionate to me and that I feel like part of her… a hug from Mexico. (Traduccion por labelfish)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: oscarov on January 06, 2009, 05:56:26 PM
commentaries of forista kalliope…

We return to the sentimental life of Rudi. The history that has survived around Rudi and his Antonia cousin, romantic although painfully full of incoherences, has a less well-known antecedent. One assumes that the young prince knew, around 1877, to an actress of the Burgtheater eleven years greater than he call Johanna Buska. Rudolf and Johanna initiated an intimate relation, into which the emperor Francisco Jose, of course, was informed. In order take drastic measure that adventure, Francisco Jose sent to his son one season to the Prague, but Johanna also traveled to the Czech capital following Rudolf. In April of 1880, Jose would have inquired to Francisco into which Johanna was pregnant of its son.

The best solution, for the sovereign, was to look for a husband hastily to him " apropiado" to Johanna: count Nikolaus Kasimir Török de Szendrö, of the Hungarian nobility. Johanna, married with that aristocrat who had been at least thirty years to him, had a boy the fourteen of February of 1881. That boy was called Alexander Török de Szendrö and its sign is lost in history, although, foreseeably, outpost in Budapest lived until age, dying without descendants.

The rumors, therefore, do to Rudi " padre" of two illegal children: Alexander, or 1881 from its love affairs with Johanna, Robert and Buska Sándor, born Pachmann, born in 1883 from its secret marriage with the Antonia arch-duchess. Personally, I consider (it fits better with the circumstances of the time) the paternity of Rudolf in the case of Sándor Török de Szendrö more probable.  thank you kalliope...

(Traduccion por labelfish)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: oscarov on January 06, 2009, 06:03:42 PM
commentaries of forista kalliope...

The loving life of Rudolf follows plagued of enigmas day of today. First of them it would be, of course, a supposed secret marriage in youth with his relative, the arch-duchess Maria Antonia of Austria, of the Tuscan branch of the Hapsburg family. Ferdinand IV Great Tuscan Duke of, member of the Hapsburg house, had to leave his Italian territory when eclosionó the unifying movement of the peninsula. He happened to him just like to his cousins Hapsburg de Modena, or, later, the Bourbons of Naples.

Ferdinand was able to flee and he settled down with his family in Salzburg, Austria. His first woman had been princess of Saxony Maria Anus, died prematurely in 1859. Of Maria Anus, to Ferdinand it had been him a daughter of hardly a year born in beautiful Florence: Maria Antonia. Antonia counted ten years of age when the father contracted second nuptials, with amiable princess Alix de Bourbon-Parma. Alix became affectionate madrastra, that had in addition nine own children. Maria Antonia, or Antonia, sometimes also mentioned by the diminutive Antonieta, had inherited the fragile health of its mother Maria Anus. Pulmonary problems always afflicted, and, in fact, it occurs by the way that the disease would kill that it with the passage of the years was a galloping tuberculosis. Perhaps by to have dealed with an ill creature, became young reserved, calmed, quiet, but an intelligent one and inclined towards the culture. There is a history, that has lasted in the time, according to which Rudolf knew its Antonia premium and both they fell in love.

In agreement with this history, Rudolf would have asked permission the emperor Francisco Jose to marry to the Antonia arch-duchess, but the sovereign would have refused fully. The reasons that are adduced for negative happiness are two: the fact that Antonia seemed " poor man partido" for the heir of the Austrian empire and, perhaps more important, the precarious health of her, who gave very bad thorn. But one assumes privily that Rudolf did in certain form sleeves and capirotes with the decision of its imperial father, marrying with Antonia in 1880 when this was pregnant woman as a result of its relations. History affirms that Antonia illuminated son man in 1883 in Dogs, that boy him was retired so that their relatives, whom as a result of all the occurred one a total collapse underwent and that decided to enter a convent of the Prague, in that raised discreetly would show the abbess title. The drama is completed assuring that Antonia died shortly after which his " husband clandestino" , Rudolf, would marry officially with princess Stephanie of Belgium.

Personally, never I have found felt coherence him nor to this well-known history by the name " Pachmann" affair; since the descendants of the supposed son would have litigated in the Viennese courts at the end of century XX to be able to show the Hapsburg last name. By all means, it is impossible, while unknown evidences do not appear today, to sustain history in tests. But it is that, separate that detail, are not few incongruities in history in itself. It does not seem, of entrance, very logical the total and unquestionable opposition of Francisco Jose to a connection between Rudolf and Antonieta. Two reasons are attributed to him, first of them who the lineage of Antonia was not around the one of Rudolf.

But that, simply, is not thus. By paternal route, Antonia belonged to the house of Hapsburg-Lorraine, in its Tuscan branch, with arch-duchess rank. By maternal route, she was the granddaughter of king Johann de Saxony and the beloved handcuffs of this one, Amalia princess of Bavaria, sexual aunt of Francisco Jose as well as of Sissi. In fact, one of the brothers of the deceased Maria Anus it had been Sidonie, princess chosen by the Sophia arch-duchess for wife of Franz to that this one had rejected because she was little attractive. With that pedigree, Antonia was not inadequate. Of course, its bad health yes that supposed an important point against…

Francisco Jose would be already very flaking of women of bad absent health who went average life of the court, of resort in resort, spa in spa, etc. But in Antonia truth it remained pregnant woman of Rudolf, that would have overcome any reluctance of the emperor. If it had a boy, assured the succession; if a girl, did not exceed a princesita for future alliances either; that soon the mother of bad health did not surpass the pregnancy and childbirth, dying young, did not suppose a tragedy because the widower could marry again with another princess. Aside, they do not agree the dates. Antonia entered the convent of the Prague the 17 of September of 1880.

Rudolf married with Stephanie the 10 of May of 1881. And the young assumption conceived by Rudolf and Antonia, married secretly, was born in Dogs in 1883. Which sounds more false that a duro of chocolate. The unique possibility of making history credible, would have consisted of making be born the boy in the first months of 1880, not in the heat of 1883 shortly before the death of the mother.   thank you kalliope...

(Traduccion por labelfish)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: oscarov on January 06, 2009, 06:13:46 PM
Commentaries of forista Patroclo...

Good sight reason why I, Rodolfo in 1880 was chosen commander in chief of an army of infantry with residence in the Prague, there they gave to a sword of gold control and silver him with the shield of the crown It was enamored with Antonia, duchess of Tuscan but that marriage was prohibited to him, Francisco order to break that relation sending to him a dancing that said as soon as it conceived two children of Rodolfo, Antonia I am distanced of by order of its parents and the infidelity of the prince.

In the time that was in the Prague they say that the love affair with the continuous dancing, Jhoana buska or was compensated by its collaboration okay case with a count and the children that was attributed to him in truth not with certainty if they were of Rodolfo or Francisco, the certain thing is that Antonia I am pregnant woman of him, he him flattery the sword in love offering and goodbye never knew of its pregnancy. Maria Antonia conceived a baron of the relation with Rodolfo, the boy along with one of the ladies of the court who not yet I can know but I promise to you that she will send it to you were sent outside, but in the boat the ill woman, the woman traveled already becomes ill and died, is buried in Mexico.

The boy said that he also died, the certain thing is that Antonia dies when finding out the death of its son, the sword is fundamental era of Rodolfo, takes their name in the case. The boy was born in 1880, Francisco had a moral obligation with the house of Belgium, his brother case with Carlota and we already know what happened, its son had to marry with a princess Belgian and thus to remedy the tragic death of its brother, who of one or the other way was driven by.

They say that the discussion that had Rodolfo with Francisco went when finding out than it underwent Antonia, and when finding out the death of its son You must not have any doubt, carries out a DNA of your great-grandfather. Oscar, He is son of Rodolfo. A friend mine must know but of that subject, as soon as she has contact with her will say to you of the lady I take who it, in truth lived an odyssey, they returned. Thank you Patroclo.

(Traduccion por labelfish)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: oscarov on January 06, 2009, 06:39:54 PM
I am thankful for these commentaries of some foristas, I hope does not inconvenience to them, if thus it is, please to say it to me I do, it with the best intention: to find the papa of my great-grandfather, that I am safe was Prince Rodolfo de Hasburgo… a hug to all. Oscarov.

Gustaria me to read commentaries of You… Hello Marie Charlotte in this forum you inserted a photo of the son of Johanna Buska… gustaria me who was to me resent.

There am leido also of the dates of entrance and exit of Maria Antonia to the convent in the Prague, agrees with their pregnancy… Knows somebody of the sword that mentioned to me, according to Rodolfo flattery to Antonia? , in my family existio that sword, but I do not know where one is exactly, that could have it in the USA. The very pretty lady that I arrive with my very ill great-grandfather venia, beast clothes and jewels, murio to the few days or weeks, who serious that lady of the court that mentions? , could exist the possibility that outside Maria Antonia?

Because Maria Antonia this buried along with the Sofia arch-duchess (daughter of Francisco Jose) in cripta of the Capucins in Vienna? … a place difficult… because not this next to near relatives like its mother or her father Fernando IV? …

I respect I work professional of the historians, but she is Families like the Hasburgo, many histories can change…

I am not historian, but what them story my family and I have commented, it since was young, I have 38 years of age and always I draw attention that was mentioned in my family the words: prince, boat, soldiers, sword, Francisco Jose, Austria, danger, reign, principality, elegant clothes, jewels, Florence, etc…

a hug for all, I hope can support to me and together we pruned to discover some truths that still estan hidden… yet respect, Oscar.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on January 24, 2009, 09:22:11 AM
Didn't found a topic which is actually discussing his death....
His death, apparently through suicide, along with that of his mistress, Baroness Marie Vetsera, at his Mayerling hunting lodge in 1889 made international headlines, fueled international conspiracy rumours and ultimately may have sealed the long-term fate of the Habsburg monarchy. Despite numerous suicide letters, later forensic analysis concluded beating, not gunshots, for her death, so the exact cause and circumstances of Rudolf's death remain a mystery to this day.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 24, 2009, 12:54:34 PM
 What later forensic analysis was that?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on January 24, 2009, 01:52:46 PM
Sorry i didn't understood your question.....But i will try to answer.... Some of the science think that Rudolf actually beat Marie.... Which i don't believe because when they found Marie's grave they saw a bullet whole in the skull..... Which means Rudolf killed her first and after this himself.....The most awful thing was that in the middle of the night the survents took Marie Vetsera's body and draged him secretly out of the  Mayerling hunting lodge ....
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 25, 2009, 04:47:37 AM
Hi, sorry if I did not make my question clear enough. What I was wondering was what later forensic analysis concluded that Mary Vetsera's death was due to blows to the head as opposed to a bullet? The official version is that Mary died as a result of one bullet to the head near the left temple, that had been fired from close range. She died 6 to 8 hours before Rudolf. Admittedly there was no proper examination of her body, as, in an effort to suppress the information about her presence at Mayerling a falsified post-mortem and death certificate were prepared, stating that Mary had committed suicide, and her body was later removed under the most disgraceful conditions and buried in the abbey at Heiligenkreuz.  In 1945 during the Soviet advance the abbey of Heiligenkreuz came under direct fire and the grave yard was damaged. Many of the graves, including that of Mary Vetsera, were broken open. Mary's remains were later transferred to a new coffin and I think at that stage someone remarked that the skull was intact except for a large hole at the top of the head (i.e. no bullet hole in the left temporal area). More recently I think somebody stole the remains of Mary Vetsera, so I was wondering did the forensic analysis you mentioned take place on that occasion. There are several threads on Crown Prince Rudolf, Crown Princess Stephanie and Mary Vetsera with details of the tragedy, of which incidentally, the 120th anniversary falls this coming Thursday, 29/01/2009.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on January 25, 2009, 05:08:36 AM
Now i understand,
Well because of all those versions this is mistery until today...... In my opinion somebody diged Marie's grave before the year 1945.... and stole them.... This will explain why when they buried her she got whole in the left temporal area.... and when the Soviet digged in 1915 the body had whole in top of the head.... I guess somebody changed the bodies... but this gave birth of other question.... Who and why did this?If this version is true ofcourse....What do you think?

Best Regards

IrinaAlexandrovna
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 25, 2009, 08:37:50 AM
Yes, it seems quite likely that the skull in Mary Vetsera's grave today does not belong to her. However, I think that rather than anybody deliberately removing it, it is more reasonable to assume that it got "mixed up" (or destroyed) in the general chaos occasioned by the Soviet bombardment of early 1945 and another skull was placed in the coffin by mistake. It is an interesting point, because the condition of the skull does not correspond with reports of Mary's injuries. Another assumption is that the original reports are incorrect and the bullet wound was at the top of the skull....it is a bit of a mystery!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on January 25, 2009, 09:00:37 AM
Welll why they cant get picture of Marie and compare it with the skull found in the grave?Or its too late.....?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 25, 2009, 06:28:43 PM
I really don't know! I doubt that it would be too late, but perhaps nobody is interested or there may be a problem about obtaining permission. I think I remember reading in Professor Judtmann's book that when Mary's remains were placed in a new coffin and reburied in the (I think) early 1960s, the family insisted on complete privacy and no one other than the undertaker from Baden who transferred the remains to the new coffin was allowed access to them. It was the undertaker who later described the condition of the skull to Prof. Judtmann.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on January 25, 2009, 10:29:20 PM
when Mary's remains were placed in a new coffin and reburied in the (I think) early 1960s, the family insisted on complete privacy and no one other than the undertaker from Baden who transferred the remains to the new coffin was allowed access to them.

Well they maybe don't belong to Mary and they  maybe buried someone else....Thanks for info :)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on January 28, 2009, 09:15:54 AM
I wonder too, what happened to Mary's remains, and believe the remains in her grave arn't hers. The remains were stolen I've heard, and returned somewhere in the 90's. But I really wonder what happened to her remains. I do not believe in the conspiracy-theories, ofcourse they could have happened, since several things were proven. Rudolf's letter to his wife, and sister, still exist and he states there that he is tired of life. Also Rudolf gave Mary the ring engraved with "Beyond Death" or something(should check my book), and gunshots were heard by Rudolf's servant Lochek.  I guess their death's will always be a mystery. Was it a suicide-pact, I think it was, because their love was denied. But wether Rudolf and Mary would have had 'forever' there is no way of knowing since their affair started somwhere in the end of 1988, shortly before Rudolf started to collapse.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on January 28, 2009, 04:51:19 PM
I've heard, and returned somewhere in the 90's.

I don't believe that somebody will keep them for more then  40 years and return them in 90's.... Mary wasn't special.... so nobody would do something like that.....

Also Rudolf gave Mary the ring engraved with "Beyond Death"

Yes but when he gave her the ring?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 28, 2009, 06:29:03 PM
I have checked some books and discovered that Mary's remains were placed in a new coffin on 7th. July 1959 (as mentioned above, this was due to the fact that the original coffin was broken open in the last days of the Second World War).

Her remains were stolen on  25th. July 1991 and seemingly forensic tests were carried out on them before they were returned and reburied on 28th. October 1993. However, I have been unable to find out if the results of the forensic examination were made public.

The fact that Rudolf gave Mary a ring was mentioned in the film "Mayerling" from 1968 (starring Omar Sharif, Catherine Deneuve, Ava Gardner and James Mason) but it is not referred to in most of the Mayerling literature that I have read, so perhaps it is just a legend. However, Mary did give Rudolf a cigarette case in early January 1889 engraved with the words "In thanks for a kindly fate" (or something to that effect).

Loschek's account of hearing the gunshots is odd, as he claimed to have heard two shorts in quick succession at around 6h00 in the morning. However, we know that Mary died 6 to 8 hours before Rudolf so the only thing that can explain Loschek's claim is that Rudolf had to take two shorts before he succeeded in killing himself and that Mary was killed in a different way. However, I have always believed that either Loschek was mistaken/confused or deliberately telling lies, as his version of events differs from that of Count Hoyos. As I mentioned in another thread about Mayerling, I believe that Rudolf arranged everything with Loschek and that Loschek knew what was to happen in advance and was acting on Rudolf's orders. However, after the tragedy he became afraid as Rudolf was no longer there to protect him, and thus did not tell the full truth when giving evidence in order to avoid problems, which would explain the inconsistencies in his evidence. That is my personal theory!!!!

Cheers,
GREENOWL 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on January 29, 2009, 01:17:31 AM

Also Rudolf gave Mary the ring engraved with "Beyond Death"

Yes but when he gave her the ring?

I don't know, have not seen evidence but a few books I read on the event state he gave her the ring around mid-january 1889, ofcourse this could be a legend too, since there is no proof of that. Most films state he gave her a ring, both Mayerling-movies and the recent Miniseries(which tries to keep on historical events, though there are rumours in there too). Not much can be said with certainty since the whole event was buried in mystery by the Imperial Court.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on January 29, 2009, 01:39:36 AM
Greenowl Thank you for the whole information...... About Loschek's truth and lies... I share your opinion....
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Paola on January 29, 2009, 02:49:29 AM
I think the Mayerling affair will be forever a mystery. I think the Habsburg family version is that Rudolph was murdered. Empress Zita believed so and her descendants too. I don't know if the late Empress wanted to avoid the scandal of a suicide in the family or if she had access to some kind of infomation to prove her story. I tend to believe it was a suicide, but not a love story. Rudolph was dissapointed with his private life and public role. He was also  ill and he just wanted to die. Marie Vetsera was in love with him and accept to share his tragic end. For Rudolph , I think he didn't love Marie Vetsera. His favorite was Mitzi Kaspar.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on January 29, 2009, 03:37:33 AM
From what he was ill?
And is there a photo of Mitzi?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on January 29, 2009, 05:36:48 AM
He was depressed, and had syphilis.

I believe there is, I remember having seen one,
I have to get my scanner working again

And I share Paula's opinion, yet I think Rudolf did love Mary but not as deeply as is shown in the media. He cared for her, but I do not think it was true love. Rudolf was depressed, and Mary a lively young teenager. He was probably her first love, and therefore she wanted to believe in fairytale-dreams of 'forever' probably. I wonder if the Vatican-archives once will make certain things public, like the examinations of their body's and the letter that would have been written for annulment of Rudolf's marriage. Probably we'll never know.

I know Rudolf did put Mitzi in hiss will and gave her the house, but Franz Joseph made that undone.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 29, 2009, 06:56:24 AM
Crown Prince Rudolf did have a sexually transmitted disease, but I think it was gonorrhoea as opposed to syphilis.  According to Judtmann (who studied the records of prescriptions at the imperial pharmacy) and Marek, Rudolf probably contracted a gonorrhoeal infection at the age of 28. The infection he passed on to his wife Stephanie was curable, as she married again (although of course she could have no further children) and both she and her second husband lived to an advanced age.

I think that the letter requesting an annulment of Rudolf's marriage is a legend, as no evidence of it in any shape or form has ever emerged. The results of the official autopsy on Rudolf were published in February 1889 and have been in the public domain since then. However, I suppose the findings are open to question, as I assume that the aim of the doctors involved was to prove that a state of insanity existed in order to ensure that the Crown Prince could have a church funeral and be buried in the Kapuziner crypt.

I don't think that Rudolf really loved Mary, and I find it unforgivable that he murdered her (irrespective of her feelings...it seems clear that she adored him and wanted to die with him).

Rudolf had bought a house on the Linke Wienzeile (I think) for Mizzi Kaspar several years before the Mayerling tragedy. He left written instructions that Loschek was to give her any cash that was found after his death, which I think happened. I have never heard of Kaiser Franz-Joseph becoming involved in any way.

I have never really understood why Empress Zita made such strange claims!!

There is lots more information about these matters in several other threads on pages two and four (or five)... entitled Helene Vetsera, Mayerling, Crown Princess Stephanie, Mary Vetsera, Mary Vetsera and Crown Prince Rudolf etc etc. It is a pity that they could not all be combined. There are probably also threads on Countess Marie Larisch. The only one involved in the tragedy who seems to have received little mention is Josef Bratfisch!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 29, 2009, 07:08:46 AM
I think the Mayerling affair will be forever a mystery. I think the Habsburg family version is that Rudolph was murdered. Empress Zita believed so and her descendants too. I don't know if the late Empress wanted to avoid the scandal of a suicide in the family or if she had access to some kind of infomation to prove her story.

I agree that it will remain a mystery. The real reason is probably because, in an effort to avoid a scandal at the time of the tragedy, the court in Vienna told lies and issued false statements (such as the first official bulletin claiming that "the most serene Crown Prince, the Archduke Rudolf, died of heart failure"!!!). This naturally made people suspicious and the origin of most of the "legends" associated with Mayerling can be traced to the immediate aftermath of the event.

As I said in my previous post, I really cannot understand the claims made by Empress Zita. It all sounds like nonsense to me and the only motivation seems to be an attempt to avoid the scandal of a suicide and murder in the family. I think that certain members of the family disassociated themselves from the Empress' claims. And yet Empress Zita was a very intelligent and dignified lady and I just cannot imagine her deliberately telling lies. She was quite elderly when she made those claims so perhaps she was a little confused?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Paola on January 29, 2009, 07:29:28 AM
Yes, I also read Rudolph had gonorrhorea and not shyphilis. But I think had he lived longer he would probably die from the advance stage of the illness. Never we will know.

Could be that Empress Zita wanted to avoid the scandal of a suicide but maybe she had reasons to say it. Probably she had acess to informations or documents inside the imperial circle?? Even if I find hard to believe in the conspiration and  murder story.

It is also for me unforgivable that Rudolph asked Marie to share his tragic fate. I think she was fascinated by him and would do all for him, even die. So she did. But I think he shouldn't used her endless love for him for such a selfish request even if I think Marie was also fascinated to this"Romeo and Juliet " story.  I think Rudolph  was also selfish when he passed the disease to his wife Stephanie, knowing that still he didn't have a male heir. I think Stephanie never forgave this to Rudolph.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on January 29, 2009, 07:33:02 AM
The one thing I DO believe in regards to the Mayerling Affair is the death of the Archduke Rudolph and the Baroness Vetsera. However everything else is imo up in the air. I have read in the past year just about anything that was written about the Mayerling Affair and the relationship between these 2 people. The Empress Zita imo 'lifted' part of the curtain, she was old, but not senile!
This Affair has been silenced from the get go with false documents, false statements, 'bought' medical doctors etc. I do not think we will ever be informed of the truth in this matter. What still is a mystery to me is:
the metal lockbox (Johann Salvator/Johann Orth)- later a metal box found in Canada and handed over to the Habsburg family
the official Mayerling papers- they were burned/taken to Ireland/lost by the Taaffe family/found by the Taaffe family and lost again

I do not understand why, this many years past the incident, the truth is not told. I still wonder WHAT REALLY HAPPENED????? Is it THAT bad??? Did FJ had a hand in this?? Did Taaffe had a hand in this?? So many writings and still so many questions.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Paola on January 29, 2009, 07:57:27 AM
Yes, it is not understandble that after all this years, 120, still so much mystery around the Mayerling affair and so many questions still to answer. Lies, papers lost and archives not accesible. If it is so bad like if Rudolph really tried to conspirate against his father, what that matters now after so many years? It wouldn't be a scandal anymore like if this would be revelead when Francis Joseph was alive. So at least some more information should be available by now after so long time.

It is really suspicious that some Taaffe papers were  accidently burned other were lost.

Where did you read about this metal box  found in Canada which belonged to Johann Orth? This could  be a new topic , one about Johann Orth.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 29, 2009, 08:15:13 AM
Hi Aor,

great to see you posting again!!

I think that suicide and murder was such a scandal in those days (and indeed even today such an event is shocking...and of course it was no ordinary person, but the crown prince and a girl "from a good family", plus the Empress's niece was heavily involved and the police and Count Taffee were inefficient on 29/01/1889 when they could have PERHAPS prevented the tragedy and at least saved Mary) that Count Taffee on behalf of Franz-Joseph did everything he could to cover up the details, and from 1889 until the fall of the monarchy it was never officially admitted that the death of Mary Vetsera was associated with that of the Crown Prince, although of course everyone know that it was. When Leopold II commented in a letter to the Count of Flanders that "the truth is so much worse than the official version" he was referring to the fact that the murder of Mary and subsequent disposal of her remains had not been officially admitted.

I am sure that Loschek knew a great deal more that he admitted. He must have heard the shot that killed Mary Vetsera, as he was supposed to be sleeping in a small room next to that of the Crown Prince and actually claimed to have heard Mary and Rudolf talking all night. It is also odd that someone (Bratfisch or Loschek?) told the huntsmen not to bother preparing for the hunt that day as it would not take place. This information was given before Loschek broke down the door in the presence of Count Hoyos and Prince Philip. I also find it odd that Loschek was so quick to jump to the conclusion of Strychnine poisoning as the cause of death....seems strange that he would have had that sort of knowledge, as it is not something that would instantly occur to me. It makes me think that he was aware beforehand of what was going to happen and was acting according to a plan devised by Rudolf, but later became afraid of the consequences for himself if he admitted the truth, and tried to conceal what really happened, thus further confusing an already complex situation....just my humble opinion.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that in a letter to his mother Queen Victoria, the Prince of Wales (later King Edward VII) related that Rudolf had 'locked up' Loschek and ignored him, despite the latter's pleas 'not to do something stupid'. At the time the Prince of Wales seemed to be the only one who had any sympathy for the fate of Mary Vetsera as in that same letter he referred to her as "that poor unfortunate young lady". I wish that I could remember where I read that letter (and sincerely hope that my memory is not failing me!!!). If the content of the above-mentioned letter is true, it would be interesting to know where the Prince of Wales got that information about Loschek!

I assume that pressure was brought to bear on the various staff  involved, as none of them ever spoke about the tragedy, with the exception of Loschek, who dictated a report to his son in the early 1930s, shortly before he died. Bratfisch never said anything at all to his family (as reported by his daughter years later) and was never the same after the tragedy, being morose and depressed, unlike his former self. He developed cancer a few years later and died. He did, however, visit Helene Vetsera and offer her his sympathy and told her that from what he saw of her daughter, she was happy and peaceful about her fate. Mary gave Bratfisch her watch (so it must have been clear to him too as to what was about to happen) and he duly returned it to her mother.

It is frustrating to know so much and yet not have the full truth, although I tend to favour the view that it was a double suicide and every attempt possible was made to "hush it up" in order to avoid scandal.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 29, 2009, 08:21:22 AM

Could be that Empress Zita wanted to avoid the scandal of a suicide but maybe she had reasons to say it. Probably she had acess to informations or documents inside the imperial circle?? Even if I find hard to believe in the conspiration and  murder story.


I think the details are in one of the other threads I mentioned in my earlier post...perhaps on page four. As far as I can remember, when making her statement Empress Zita said that the papers on which her information was based "had all been destroyed"
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Paola on January 29, 2009, 08:27:10 AM
Still we don't know why Empress Zita should "invent" the conspiration and murder story. There were eye witness in the funeral of Rudolph who said he had several wounds  and also I think the hands mutilated. Wasn't archduchess Marie Therese (wife of Rudolph's uncle Karl Ludwig) one of them?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Paola on January 29, 2009, 08:28:53 AM

Could be that Empress Zita wanted to avoid the scandal of a suicide but maybe she had reasons to say it. Probably she had acess to informations or documents inside the imperial circle?? Even if I find hard to believe in the conspiration and  murder story.


I think the details are in one of the other threads I mentioned in my earlier post...perhaps on page four. As far as I can remember, when making her statement Empress Zita said that the papers on which her information was based "had all been destroyed"

Could be that the papers destroyed were the Taaffe papers? Who knows...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on January 29, 2009, 08:29:41 AM
The metal lockbox that was mentioned by Marie Louise Larisch in her book 'My Past' and was subsequently dismissed by several biographers as being hogwash and an 'active imagination'. Now, don't get me wrong, Larisch had a bone to grind with the IF and liked to spin tales, but if later, much later a metal box is handed over to the present Head of the House of Habsburg, it makes me wonder if this tale had come from an 'active imagination' or was it truth after all. I can't remember at the moment where I read this, but I'll find it and post it. I believe it was in the book from Georg Markus about the digging-up of the Vetsera body.
As for Johann Salvator/Johannes Orth; his dissapearance has always been questioned. There are many stories about this and none is conclusive or has there ever been proof of him and his wife drowning, but I keep wondering how a metal box shows up in Canada....AND taken to the Habsburg Family. Did Johann Salvator live out his life in Canada? Did he, as some books say return to Austria?
I do not proclaim to have all the answers, I have tried to keep an open mind on everything I read and researched and am stomped by some aspects of this case. I agree, why not tell the truth and let the world know what really happened, will we have any lower or higher opinion of this family? I certainly won't......
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on January 29, 2009, 08:53:44 AM
Hi Greenowl.... glad to be back!
Bratfish has never said ANYTHING in public or memoirs outside his statement to Taaffe that has been recorded and burnt/lost/found etc. I assume he was paid off as he started shortly after the Affair his own Fiaker Company. He was in close contact with Mitzi Caspar and the elder Baroness Vetsera, so I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall at those conversations..... ;) I think he was aked to leave Austria, but refused to leave and I assume paid off at that point.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Paola on January 29, 2009, 12:27:33 PM
I thought Bratfish was sent to America after the Mayerling affair.
I
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on January 29, 2009, 02:05:39 PM
I never heard that they wanted Bratfisch to leave Austria BUT he did receive a sum of money and Kladrubers from the imperial stables to enable him to set up his own Fiaker business. The court actually forced Helene Vetsera to leave Vienna for a period immediately following the tragedy.

Yes, Paola, I think that I did read something about eye witnesses at Rudolf's funeral who said he had several wounds including mutilated hands. As far as I know, his hands are hidden in all the photos taken of him on his deathbed. However, I think I also read that someone said the only thing wrong was a powder burn on one hand caused by shooting himself at such close range, so it really is difficult to know which evidence to believe.

To confuse matters still further, according to her diary Marie-Valerie seemed to believe the "official version" of events but just wondered what the reason was, i.e. what made her brother act as he did and like her mother she tended to blame Crown Princess Stephanie, whom she also disliked (no doubt influenced by the Empress).  Meanwhile, in his letters to Katherina Schratt after the tragedy, Franz-Joseph always spoke of Rudolf in glowing terms, which seems a bit odd in view of what the latter had done!

I also agree that if some facts still remain hidden, it would be better to tell the truth and let the world know what really happened, and whatever the revelations, it would be unlikely to change my opinion of the family.

Fascinating to think that it all happened 120 years ago on this very night.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on February 02, 2009, 04:51:47 AM
I have checked some books and discovered that Mary's remains were placed in a new coffin on 7th. July 1959 (as mentioned above, this was due to the fact that the original coffin was broken open in the last days of the Second World War).

Her remains were stolen on  25th. July 1991 and seemingly forensic tests were carried out on them before they were returned and reburied on 28th. October 1993. However, I have been unable to find out if the results of the forensic examination were made public.

The fact that Rudolf gave Mary a ring was mentioned in the film "Mayerling" from 1968 (starring Omar Sharif, Catherine Deneuve, Ava Gardner and James Mason) but it is not referred to in most of the Mayerling literature that I have read, so perhaps it is just a legend. However, Mary did give Rudolf a cigarette case in early January 1889 engraved with the words "In thanks for a kindly fate" (or something to that effect).

Loschek's account of hearing the gunshots is odd, as he claimed to have heard two shorts in quick succession at around 6h00 in the morning. However, we know that Mary died 6 to 8 hours before Rudolf so the only thing that can explain Loschek's claim is that Rudolf had to take two shorts before he succeeded in killing himself and that Mary was killed in a different way. However, I have always believed that either Loschek was mistaken/confused or deliberately telling lies, as his version of events differs from that of Count Hoyos. As I mentioned in another thread about Mayerling, I believe that Rudolf arranged everything with Loschek and that Loschek knew what was to happen in advance and was acting on Rudolf's orders. However, after the tragedy he became afraid as Rudolf was no longer there to protect him, and thus did not tell the full truth when giving evidence in order to avoid problems, which would explain the inconsistencies in his evidence. That is my personal theory!!!!

Cheers,
GREENOWL 

Who stole her remains and why?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on February 02, 2009, 04:56:30 AM
some links about marie vetsera:

http://www.eurohistory.com/mayerling.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroness_Mary_Vetsera
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Mayerling

in short, because of the fact that the austrian authorities did everything in their power to make sure that marie vetsera's tracks were covered and that no-one ever finds out she was there, lots of evidence was lost. her body was smuggled in the night, everything was covered up. i don't think we will never know what happened however i doubt rudolf loved her enough to die for their love, as the romantic version says. i think there was much more at stake.

What more do you think was at stake?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on February 03, 2009, 07:17:52 PM
A 52 year old furniture dealer from Linz (Upper Austria) called Helmut Flatzelsteiner stole the remains. He said he wanted them to undergo forensic examination, but it is rumoured that the real reason for the theft was financial....he planned on selling them and earning a great deal of money. When the police recovered the remains from Flatzelsteiner they were sent for forensic examination. Interestingly enough, the Vetsera family initially gave permission, but then suddenly withdrew their permission before the examination had reached its conclusion. The only findings were that the remains belonged to an 18 year old girl who had been dead for about a hundred years. Some reports claim that the Vetsera family refused to provide samples for DNA testing, while other sources state that the condition of the remains (especially the hair) was too poor for DNA testing. Most odd!!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on February 04, 2009, 02:09:44 AM
The one thing I DO believe in regards to the Mayerling Affair is the death of the Archduke Rudolph and the Baroness Vetsera. However everything else is imo up in the air. I have read in the past year just about anything that was written about the Mayerling Affair and the relationship between these 2 people. The Empress Zita imo 'lifted' part of the curtain, she was old, but not senile!
This Affair has been silenced from the get go with false documents, false statements, 'bought' medical doctors etc. I do not think we will ever be informed of the truth in this matter. What still is a mystery to me is:
the metal lockbox (Johann Salvator/Johann Orth)- later a metal box found in Canada and handed over to the Habsburg family
the official Mayerling papers- they were burned/taken to Ireland/lost by the Taaffe family/found by the Taaffe family and lost again

I do not understand why, this many years past the incident, the truth is not told. I still wonder WHAT REALLY HAPPENED????? Is it THAT bad??? Did FJ had a hand in this?? Did Taaffe had a hand in this?? So many writings and still so many questions.



But didn't Rudolf leave suicide notes to his mother, wife and sister? or do you think they were forged?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on February 05, 2009, 07:23:03 AM

I do not know! I still am not certain as to what to think about his father NOT receiving a letter, what about the letters that were found in Vienna after the Mayerling Affair AND turned into blank pages over the years ??? What about the Vetsera Family giving permission for DNA testing and autopsy and then suddnely withdrawing this permission. Why, did they get told? again? There are so many curves, corners etc. that after all that I read I still can't make heads or tails out of it. The only certainty is; they died.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on February 05, 2009, 08:30:55 AM
You know AOR, you may have a point, as the more I read about the tragedy the odder it seems. Take the suicide notes/letters for example: none of Rudolf's letters have survived with the exception of the one to his wife, Crown Princess Stephanie, and that has at least two inconsistencies in it (although I suppose one could argue that if he was of "unsound mind" and lets face it, someone who had just murdered a teenage girl and was contemplating killing himself could be excused for been a bit "confused"). Do you know whether any of the letters that Mary left have survived?

The apparent reason why the Vetsera family withdrew their permission for the DNA testing and autopsy was because they probably feared that the remains are not those of Mary Vetsera, thus leading to more questions and a great deal of publicity. Pressure may also have been brought to bear on them by the Abbey of Heiligenkreuz, as (I believe....I'm not certain about this) that the monks make quite a lot of money out of visitors who come to visit Mary's grave. There is a lovely restaurant in the abbey (or at least there was when I visited it many years ago....I remember enjoying a delicious goulasch there!!). Needless to say, if it was proved that the remains were not those of Mary Vetsera (and who knows what Mr. Flatzelsteiner or indeed the Soviet troops did with them) the stream of visitors would dry up and the Abbey's income would drop.

I once read somewhere (maybe on this very Forum??) that Mary was really buried in Hungary close to the stud farm belonging to her Uncle (Hector I think) Baltazzi. However, there was no explanation provided as to how her remains were moved from Mayerling (or Heiligenkruz) to Hungary!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on February 05, 2009, 09:30:10 AM
Greenowl, absolutely! I have more questions now than I ever had before 'digging' into the countless biographies, all the 'side' books, the accounts given by so many people that contradict each other. Letters that have disappeared, historical papers entrusted to Court officials and never archived within the Royal Archives. When they found them, they were 'stuffed' with empty sheets of paper. Why??? What was it they were hiding? What does it matter anymore after all this time? Why not put these papers finally in the archives where they belong and are researchable by all of us.
 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on February 05, 2009, 09:25:15 PM
You know AOR, you may have a point, as the more I read about the tragedy the odder it seems. Take the suicide notes/letters for example: none of Rudolf's letters have survived with the exception of the one to his wife, Crown Princess Stephanie, and that has at least two inconsistencies in it (although I suppose one could argue that if he was of "unsound mind" and lets face it, someone who had just murdered a teenage girl and was contemplating killing himself could be excused for been a bit "confused"). Do you know whether any of the letters that Mary left have survived?

The apparent reason why the Vetsera family withdrew their permission for the DNA testing and autopsy was because they probably feared that the remains are not those of Mary Vetsera, thus leading to more questions and a great deal of publicity. Pressure may also have been brought to bear on them by the Abbey of Heiligenkreuz, as (I believe....I'm not certain about this) that the monks make quite a lot of money out of visitors who come to visit Mary's grave. There is a lovely restaurant in the abbey (or at least there was when I visited it many years ago....I remember enjoying a delicious goulasch there!!). Needless to say, if it was proved that the remains were not those of Mary Vetsera (and who knows what Mr. Flatzelsteiner or indeed the Soviet troops did with them) the stream of visitors would dry up and the Abbey's income would drop.

I once read somewhere (maybe on this very Forum??) that Mary was really buried in Hungary close to the stud farm belonging to her Uncle (Hector I think) Baltazzi. However, there was no explanation provided as to how her remains were moved from Mayerling (or Heiligenkruz) to Hungary!

Cheers,
GREENOWL

Hi Greenowl,

your posts are always so informative. Could you point out what inconsistencies there were in Rudolf's note to Stephanie? I only read the English version and didn't find it out of the line. I can understand why the imperial family destroyed the other notes - not that I'm a true believer of his suicide.

on another note, I wonder if FJ felt somewhat relieved. I don't believe he'd arrange Rudolf's death. However considering the man of duty he was, Rudolf really wasn't a good succesor.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Olga Maria on February 06, 2009, 07:45:15 AM
Wow, that's terrible! (it's my 1st time to comment in this topic)
Any picture of Mayerling? Found this one.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3275/2771440150_11c9eb0181.jpg?v=0
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 06, 2009, 10:34:44 AM
Couple others:
(https://secure.reservexl.net/wwwimg/img/tours/7318-1.jpg)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/438028246_0f6cc1dc47.jpg?v=0)
(http://www.tiscover.at/at/images/RGN/126/RGN130626at/kollage_mayerling.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on February 06, 2009, 12:13:49 PM
Hi Princess of Cupertino!

I hope I won't disappoint you, as the inconsistencies in Rudolf's note to Stephanie may not be all that dramatic, but here goes: (1) Like some of the other letters/notes, the note to Crown Princess Stephanie is undated.  He asks her to pass on his last greetings to all his friends, and lists several: (2) one of them is the Sekt. Chef von Szögyeny-Marich, to whom he also left a note (in Hungarian I think) asking him to open his (Rudolf's) writing desk in Vienna. It seems a bit odd to ask Stephanie to pass on his last greetings to Szögyeny-Marich when he had already done so or was about to do so himself in another letter. (3) Included in the list of friends are Gisela and Leopold, who are of course his sister (to whom he was very close as a child) and brother-in-law, thus it seems slightly strange to describe them as friends. Still, as I mentioned in my previous post, he was most probably not of "sound mind" when he wrote those notes.

I don't think that Franz-Joseph was relieved when Rudolf died, but quite the opposite. He was devastated and after that was never quite the same again (the Empress was also very badly affected and never wrote poetry again and contemplated suicide as she blamed herself for "Rudolf's insanity"). When Rudolf's coffin was placed in the Kapuziner Crypt Franz-Joseph knelt down beside it and wept, very unusual for such an introverted and self-disciplined person. He mentioned how depressed he was in letters to Katherina Schratt, while Marie-Valerie confided in her diary that meal times were a dreadful ordeal, as one of her parents would start to cry, which triggered the other parent and then she would become upset and cry too. As far as I know, they also wept on the first anniversary of Rudolf's death, when a mass was celebrated in the church of the convent in Mayerling that Franz-Joseph had built on the site of the former hunting lodge.

Like his mother, Rudolf was very intellectual and had the circumstances been different and Franz-Joseph had given him more responsibility, I think that he probably would have made a very good Emperor.

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: imperial angel on February 06, 2009, 01:42:12 PM
I haven't read much about Rudolph since I only read English, and I bet most of the sources on him aren't in English, but this whole thing is odd, particularly the thing about Marie Vetsera's remains. I think that the murder- suicide story is true though. It wa covered up at the time because murder was seen then as it is today in a bad light, and suicide and mental illness was more stigmatized back then than it is today. The Hapsburgs didn't want their reputation ruined, which has obscured things to the present day. It was the saddest for Marie Vetsera, as she was obviously foolish and young. One of my own distant cousins in 1909 shot his wife and then himself, and luckily their children escaped being killed. I believe Marie Vetsera agreed to this murder- suicide pact, whereas some victims of murder suicide, such as my distant cousin's wife, likely didn't agree.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Princess of Cupertino on February 06, 2009, 06:28:53 PM
Hi Princess of Cupertino!

I hope I won't disappoint you, as the inconsistencies in Rudolf's note to Stephanie may not be all that dramatic, but here goes: (1) Like some of the other letters/notes, the note to Crown Princess Stephanie is undated.  He asks her to pass on his last greetings to all his friends, and lists several: (2) one of them is the Sekt. Chef von Szögyeny-Marich, to whom he also left a note (in Hungarian I think) asking him to open his (Rudolf's) writing desk in Vienna. It seems a bit odd to ask Stephanie to pass on his last greetings to Szögyeny-Marich when he had already done so or was about to do so himself in another letter. (3) Included in the list of friends are Gisela and Leopold, who are of course his sister (to whom he was very close as a child) and brother-in-law, thus it seems slightly strange to describe them as friends. Still, as I mentioned in my previous post, he was most probably not of "sound mind" when he wrote those notes.

I don't think that Franz-Joseph was relieved when Rudolf died, but quite the opposite. He was devastated and after that was never quite the same again (the Empress was also very badly affected and never wrote poetry again and contemplated suicide as she blamed herself for "Rudolf's insanity"). When Rudolf's coffin was placed in the Kapuziner Crypt Franz-Joseph knelt down beside it and wept, very unusual for such an introverted and self-disciplined person. He mentioned how depressed he was in letters to Katherina Schratt, while Marie-Valerie confided in her diary that meal times were a dreadful ordeal, as one of her parents would start to cry, which triggered the other parent and then she would become upset and cry too. As far as I know, they also wept on the first anniversary of Rudolf's death, when a mass was celebrated in the church of the convent in Mayerling that Franz-Joseph had built on the site of the former hunting lodge.

Like his mother, Rudolf was very intellectual and had the circumstances been different and Franz-Joseph had given him more responsibility, I think that he probably would have made a very good Emperor.

Cheers,
GREENOWL

Hi Greenowl,

thank you so much for the information. I guess those inconsistencies were curious enough however can't really warrant another story than suicide. as for FJ's attitude, I remember reading BH's "reluctant empress" (in English of course :). It mentioned that Elisabeth was completely crushed. yet soon after FJ seemed rather jolly (according to MV's diaries as well). I thought at the time it was odd. But it could be a psychological defense on FJ's part.

I always found Rudolf the most sympathetic royal character of his time. strangely enough I always think of my relationship with my sons (still quite young now). it seems royal or not, the parent-children dynamics always have something universal.

cheers.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Olga Maria on February 07, 2009, 03:07:19 AM
Couple others:
(https://secure.reservexl.net/wwwimg/img/tours/7318-1.jpg)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/438028246_0f6cc1dc47.jpg?v=0)
(http://www.tiscover.at/at/images/RGN/126/RGN130626at/kollage_mayerling.jpg)

The place is so eye-catching but it's a place of a mysterious murder.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on February 07, 2009, 04:44:49 AM
Yes before that suicide happened it was really lovely place....Can somebody tell me how often the imperial family spend their time there?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on February 07, 2009, 05:25:05 AM
Hi Irina Alexandrovna,

Crown Prince Rudolf bought various properties in Mayerling between 1884 and 1886 and had them renovated and "joined together" to form the hunting lodge, which comprised three wings around a court yard, plus a tea pavillion, bowling alley and newly built stables which were described by contemporaries as "luxurious". The new hunting lodge was officially opened with a hunt on 19 and 20th. November 1887 in the presence of the Emperor and Empress. I assume that the Crown Princess was present on that occasion, but I am not certain. Between November 1887 and the tragic events of 29/30 January 1889 the hunting lodge was only used on ten occasions. In that period the Crown Princess stayed there twice. Archduchess Elisabeth (Erzi) stayed there between 1st and 17th. June 1888 when recuperating from an illness, but without either of her parents. An interesting fact is that Count Hoyos and Prince Philipp Coburg were present on all (or almost all) the occasions on which the hunting lodge was used.

Princess of Cupertino,

I agree that the suicide version does appear the most plausible, although as aor points out, there are so many odd facts that don't seem to fit together, for me the main one being Loscheck's contradictory testimony.

It is quite true that parent-children dynamics always have something universal....before becoming a parent I read the accounts of the Mayerling tragedy and indeed the Spala incident and the attitude of Empress Alexandra to her son's life-threatening condition with quite different eyes. As a mother I now have far more sympathy for the parents and can much better envisage how they must have felt...

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Olga Maria on February 07, 2009, 03:49:12 PM
Such a wonderful info, GreenOwl!

Cheers,
Ingrid Alexie
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on February 11, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
Thanks Ingrid Alexie, glad you enjoyed it!

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: oscarov on February 23, 2009, 10:44:16 AM
hello, i have new notices, i need yours comments, please.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: britt.25 on March 10, 2009, 03:50:01 AM
Only a question...did you do the DNA test or not? Maybe I overread it....I know the thing with the Y- Chromosome, which is always given from father to son and can least over many generations. I another case which I know it disproved the possible child of a historical figure. Did you do such a test to compare with the Habsburgs?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: oscarov on March 10, 2009, 02:05:16 PM
Hello, it is pleasant to me to greet it, I am trying to look for some volunteer of the Hapsburg Family for the chromosome Y, for a mitocondrial test, in another forum of royalty they commented to me that a test of mitocondrial DNA can be done, on the part of the breast or aunts of Maria Antonia to be able to know if exists a decendencia on the part of the Tuscan line. I am thankful for its commentaries to him, itself in my investigation, you know you something of a sword of silver with gold  to Rudol prince? approximately in 1880. Marie Charlotte years ago in this forum put a photo of a son of Rudolf prince, somebody podria to resend it to me, or to insert it in this forum again? greetings to all from Mexico
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Linnie on April 01, 2009, 04:59:55 PM
I find it hard to understand the postings here because I believe that they were machine-translated, and English is not my first language. The translation doesn't read wel at alll. Too bad! And I would assume that Rudolf wasn't born in 1878! ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Linnie on May 03, 2009, 05:18:32 PM
Here is an excerpt from Richard Berkeley's book about Mary Vetsera: She was not a cold-headed and cold-hearted schemer: she was warm-hearted, a little empty-headed perhaps, but she gave him the warmth of a little animal. Like a prisoner, who can lose his heart to a mouse sharing his cell, so Rudolph lost his heart to Mary, who understood nothing of politics and did not care for them, but who knew with the safe instinct of her womanhood that his aching nerves needed peace.
(pp. 208-209)


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 18, 2009, 07:09:59 PM
Long time ago I read the two stangest verssions for Rudolph's death.

Rudolph's parents said that he died for a heart disease, but people
didn't believe the official explanation and many strange rumours
were invented.

1) Rudolph decided to suicide because he dicovered that Mary Vetsera was
her half sister.
2) (Even worse) Rudolph discovered that Mary Vetsera was really his daugther.

It's impossible that Mary's mother would have an affair with the young price, he
was just 14 years old when Mary was born. And also I don't believe that Mary's
mother would have an affair with the Emperor Franz Joseph.

Strange verssions. Don't you think??
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: myhusbandswife on June 01, 2009, 11:20:14 AM
I found a picture of Mary's grave, if anyone is interested.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mayerling20.jpg (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mayerling20.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on June 01, 2009, 11:58:51 AM
Yes, a friend of mine visited Heiligenkreuz to see Mary's grave when she was in Vienna, there she saw 'Rudolf - Affaire Mayerling' - a musical based on the life of Rudolf and the events surrounding his death and that of Mary. I intend to visit the convent, at the Mayerling-estate, and the graveyard on which Mary is burried someday too.

I have seen lots of movies on the event, and soon will see 'Kronprzin Rudolfs Letze Liebe' which has been filming at the graveyard, like 'The Crown Prince' from 2006 was.

Here is a video of mine, some kind of tribute to Rudolf and Mary, using footage from movies, and musical-versions on the events - pictures also are used.

anyway, if anyone likes to see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdzD7c6TEgc&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Ozymandias on June 24, 2009, 01:34:27 PM
At sum point when Rudolf was a student, he had an affair with an older women a Graduate style affair you could say (with reference to the film The Graduat)
Who was the woman and what did she look like?

Archduchess Maria Antonia Archduchess of Habsburg-Tuscany (Married In Secret)
I'm just curious to know what Maria Antonia looked like?
If Rudolf was married to Maria Antonia wouldn't that make him a bigamist, when he married Stephanie.

Stephanie Princess of Belgium (Wife)
Child, Archduchess Elisabeth Marie "Erzsi"
We all know what Stephanie Princess of Belgium looked like
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Rudolf_and_Stéphanie.jpg)

Baroness MariaVetsera (Mistress)
We all know what  Maria Vetsera lookd like, we all know what we think happened.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Vetsera_1888_2.jpg)

Was there any other affairs, I'm just curious to know?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on June 24, 2009, 04:07:23 PM
Was there any other affairs, I'm just curious to know?

Were there any other affairs? Yes indeed, the Crown Prince had a vast number of affairs, both before and during his marriage.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on June 24, 2009, 05:09:04 PM
Yes he had many affairs, it was rumoured that Rudolf had an affair with Mary's mother years before. But there is no proof of that. At the time of his romance with Mary Vetsera he also, still, was intimate with his 'official misstress' Mizzi Caspar.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Madame-Sisi on July 01, 2009, 05:25:01 AM
Long time ago I read the two stangest verssions for Rudolph's death.

Rudolph's parents said that he died for a heart disease, but people
didn't believe the official explanation and many strange rumours
were invented.

1) Rudolph decided to suicide because he dicovered that Mary Vetsera was
her half sister.
2) (Even worse) Rudolph discovered that Mary Vetsera was really his daugther.

It's impossible that Mary's mother would have an affair with the young price, he
was just 14 years old when Mary was born. And also I don't believe that Mary's
mother would have an affair with the Emperor Franz Joseph.

Strange verssions. Don't you think??

thats the funiest thing i've ever heard.. but i do know about other theories...
that can be true.. i will post them later
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on July 01, 2009, 05:46:33 AM
Yes i agree with Madame-Sisi....Hah really awful explanations...and i would never believe this...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Madame-Sisi on July 01, 2009, 06:25:09 AM
The initial official explanation for the incident was that Rudolf had suffered heart failure; Vetsera was not mentioned and her body was secretly buried. However, the official story did not hold up well, and it later was admitted that Rudolf had committed suicide. Many stories were floated about the pair’s death, with the most widely accepted being that the two lovers had carried out a suicide pact after Franz Joseph demanded they separate. Rudolf shot his mistress in the head, then sat by her body for several hours before shooting himself. A special dispensation from the Vatican was obtained, declaring Rudolf to be in a state of “mental imbalance” in order for Rudolf to be buried in the Imperial Crypt.

Notably, it has been rumoured that Empress Zita, (1892 - 1989), widow of the last Emperor, Karl (r: 1916-1918) and last surviving Crowned head from The Great War, claimed that the Crown Prince was murdered, and the crime was disguised as a double suicide.[citation needed] The responsible party were Austrian security officials, in response to the Prince’s suspected pro-Hungarian sympathies, or French agents because he refused to participate in the deposition of his pro-German father. No evidence has been discovered to support either of these theories.

From Wikipedia.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

At the beginning they told he had a heartfaillure and there was no girl at the crime scene..l
then there was..
i have also heard they were forced to wrote the suicide letters by the people who killed them..
or did they willingly wrote the letters and killed eachother like it is known to everyone?
so many quations..and still unanswered.

why did they distroyed the evidence? why build a chapel in the room they were found dead?
and so there are more questions 2 ask..
why did rudolf  wore gloves on in his funural? and it was not allowed that the empress would see his hands..? because they were wounded?
why was all the evidence that was not destroyed hidden and why were people forced not to talk about the things they have seen or heard?

 A resulting re-examination of files about the death of the Crown Prince revealed major discrepancies between the claimed manner of the deaths and the factual evidence. At one point it was claimed that six shots were fired from the weapon, which did not belong to Rudolf. The initial report stated that only one shot was fired, instantly killing the Crown Prince, which raises the question of how the remaining five bullets were fired. This information suggests that Rudolf had engaged in a violent struggle before his death. However, an examination of the Papal Dispensation issued to allow Rudolf’s Christian burial asserts that only one shot was fired.

why is/was it not allowed 2 open the graves for re-examination? because it would proofe something different than whe should know?
All the major players in the Incident have died, most without publicly commenting on the tragedy..why?

In December 1992, the cemetery at Heiligenkreuz was vandalized and Mary Vetsera's remains were stolen. Upon recovery they were examined to ensure that they were the correct remains. The findings again contradicted the official reports that she had been shot; her skull showed no evidence of bullet wounds or shrapnel. Instead, the evidence indicated that she had been beaten to death.

so much is different then the first story they told that he shot her and commited suicide.. its strange and i really would like answers to my questions.. its time the real truth came out!
was it a murder with political backgrounds? or was it a family matter(from both sides..the imperial or the vetsera familys)? or was it indeed suicide? maybe some revenge?

Lets find it out! its time too unravel this mystery..the truth has been burried for so long..lets dig it up..for some things are not ment to be a secret!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 01, 2009, 09:05:01 AM
Yes, such a mystery... I have heard that the remains that are reburied in Mary's grave may in fact not even be her. It is possible, after all in '45 the Russians opened the grave, and from what I have heard paying little respect to the dead, or giving any notice of who lay in the grave, and so it could be possible the wrong remains were buried. Again in the 90's her grave was opened and the remains stolen. It was said that the remains were taken back, but again it could be that the wrong remains were reburied.

I do not know what to believe, perhaps Rudolf killed Mary and himself - I think that happened - but I do not believe it was the romantic tragedy we have been told. He may have cared for her and longed for her as he has other mistresses, she may have adored him as a teenager adores her idol, but I do not believe it was the true tragic love. Rudolf just didn't want to die alone, No matter how romantic and dramatic the movies are, almost all they depict tragic love, it is not sure if that is the truth.

But then again, it was at first said that Rudolf and Mary died in short time of each other, but there were several hours between their death, and also I am wondering too why the Empress was not allowed to see the hands of her son, or to why all evidence has been destroyed - Ofcourse the Emperor may have wanted to keep to the original story of heart failure, thus destroying all evidence of Mary's death at Mayerling. Also her mother was forbidden to speak of the events, so it is possible the Emperor simply didn't want it to be known - and also I would love Rudolf's remains to be examined, and those that lay in Mary's grave - so they can perhaps be identified as Mary, but for now it all remains a mystery.

I recently received a copy of the movie 'Le Secret De Mayering', which is in French, retelling the story of Rudolf and Mary as a romance indeed but not as the tragic, doomed love, as it always is shown. This movie states that the couple was assassinated - we can see a gun pointed at them, but do not see them being shot, though someone escapes the room by the open window after their death - and uses several sources, Countess Larich's book for one - now that is mostly credited as a book full of lies, but this movie also shows that conspiracies always will be believed until the truth is completely out in the open. I have posted screens and more on this movie in the thread about movies on Sisi.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on July 01, 2009, 10:58:18 AM

Rudolph's parents said that he died for a heart disease, but people
didn't believe the official explanation and many strange rumours ere invented.


One must bear in mind the fact that Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth were not aware of the true cause of their son's death until 6h00 on the morning of January 31st when Dr. Hermann Widerhofer, Franz-Joseph's personal physician, who had headed the medical commission that was sent to Mayerling the previous afternoon, made his report. Up to that time they were under the impression that the Crown Prince had been poisoned by Mary Vetsera, as that was what Count Hoyos said when he arrived in Vienna with the dreadful news. It was the Prime Minister, Count Taffee, who wrote the official bulletin for the newspapers at midday on January 30th which stated: "His Imperial and Royal Highness, the most serene Crown Prince, Archduke Rudolf died suddenly of heart failure". Strangely enough, even Mary's mother did not question the fact that her daughter was said to have poisoned the Crown Prince. Obviously the presence of Mary was a great scandal that had to be hushed up at all costs, and from that time until the end of the monarchy, her presence at the side of the Crown Prince was never officially admitted.

I find it difficult to believe in the murder theory, as after Mary "went missing" on the morning of January 28th her sister Hanna discovered a suicide note in her (Mary's) bedroom, which read "Dear Mother, by the time you read this I will be in the Danube", so Mary was obviously aware of what was going to happen well in advance and due to her infatuation with Rudolf was willing to do anything that he asked her. However, I often wonder whether the note was motivated by a subconscious desire to prevent her death? I think that Rudolf was very wrong and selfish to have used Mary in such a way and taken advantage of her youthful devotion. He should have known better.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Madame-Sisi on July 01, 2009, 01:10:45 PM
.

I find it difficult to believe in the murder theory, as after Mary "went missing" on the morning of January 28th her sister Hanna discovered a suicide note in her (Mary's) bedroom, which read "Dear Mother, by the time you read this I will be in the Danube",


well that certainly did not happen...
well..now im getting a new thought..
maybe Rudolf in the end refused mary..or did as his father asked him..abandon mary... that she was so "love sick" she only wanted to die and maybe throw herself in the danube..
(when u really love someone in a foolish mood u also will be like i kill myself..if that person doesnt want you or you cant have him because of everybody around you so its forbidden..)
maybe she got a message 2 meet up with rudolf in mayerling..without any plans of committing suicide.. when they were 2 gether they maybe got forced 2 wrote more letters..like the letters of rudolf.. and they got murdered...by somebody for maybe political reasons or someone who took care of this family matter..

its only i thouht of me..like a new possibility..so dont atack me for having a open mind on this kind of things
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 01, 2009, 05:23:17 PM
This is personally not my area of interest, however..........  If the cause of death was initially suggested to be "heart failure,"  how were they to explain the MOST obvious bandage-wrappings to his head later as he lay within the open coffin?  I have seen at least one photo many years ago of the displayed body with the top part of his cranium neatly swathed in wrappings.  The supposition would be that the bandages covered/hid head trauma of a shattered skull, potentially as a result of a bullet entrance/exit.    AP
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on July 01, 2009, 06:02:52 PM
  If the cause of death was initially suggested to be "heart failure,"  how were they to explain the MOST obvious bandage-wrappings to his head later as he lay within the open coffin? 

Hi Aleksandr Pavlovich, that was the point I was trying to make above. When they (i.e. Count Taffee on behalf of the Emperor) issued that first statement (the heart failure story) at noon on 30th January, no one in Vienna knew that the cause of the Crown Prince's death was a bullet to the brain. The Imperial family and court were under the impression that he had been poisoned. It was only when the court medical commission headed by Dr. Widerhofer arrived in Mayerling that afternoon that the true cause of death was established. Transport and communications in those days being less rapid than is the case today, it was not until 6h00 the following morning (31/01/1889) when Dr. Widerhofer made his report to Emperor Franz Joseph that the true state of affairs became known. At that stage the "heart failure" version was quickly amended to the "hunting accident" version, which of course explains the damage to the head and the bandages etc.

One fact that has always puzzled me is why Loschek was so quick to jump to the conclusion that Rudolf and Mary had been poisoned with strychnine. My personal theory is that Loschek (and also Bratfisch) knew far more than he (they) admitted.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 01, 2009, 06:17:16 PM
Hello, "Greenowl," and thank you (as always) for your kind and informative comments!  I appreciate the courtesy!   Kind regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 01, 2009, 06:30:32 PM
For the dioscussion, i d like to add a PM illustration of rudolph  . Is this a realistic one or just an allegory?

(http://i41.tinypic.com/28uu64p.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 01, 2009, 08:49:39 PM
 Referencing the illustration and reply # 91 above:  In my opinion, it only vaguely resembles the very small photo (emphasis:  PHOTO, not sketch) that I saw:  The photo showed the close-up of an open coffin/bier surrounded by flowers (?), but only the bust of the body was shown in the photo.  He was in military uniform; the head (top of the head was to the right of the photo) capped tightly with white bandages, almost down to the eyebrows.  The moustache was large and prominent and the face was fuller (swollen ?) than the drawing above.  I seem to remember lighted candles close by the body.  I have no idea who took the photo or where. (I DO remember at the same time, someone wrote in comments related to the photo, that they heard that the skull had been crushed by blows from a "pool cue"!  OBVIOUSLY, that was wrong!  It has been so long ago, but I think that it was in a correspondence column (one reason why the photo would be small) in "Life" Magazine (an American magazine that is no longer in existence) in response to a letter/comment from a previous issue.    AP
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on July 02, 2009, 01:55:44 AM
Thanks for your kind words Aleksandr Pavlovich! I'm always happy to be of assistance!

With regard to the illustration above: It seems to be a drawing based on a photo. As AP says, the resemblance is not very close (at least in my opinion). I have never seen it before. However, there are a large number of allegorical drawings/sketches and several photos. As far as I know, the photos depicting the dead Crown Prince with the large bandage over his head and forehead and his whole body concealed under a sheet were taken on the night of January 30th after the body was brought back to Vienna but before the autopsy took place. After the autopsy the head was "repaired" with wax and cosmetics and photos were taken of him without a bandage and wearing a uniform, where only a very small mark is visible in the right temple (the entry wound....the exit wound was much larger and the bullet is said to have blown the top of his head off....gruesome). However, this is not something I have studied in any detail, as I find the topic rather upsetting and distasteful (I'm one of those people who become weak at the sight of blood!!). By the way, the final "official statement" was issued after Dr. Widerhofer's audience with Kaiser Franz Joseph at 6h00 on the morning of 31st January and followed "the hunting accident" version. It read: "Suicide by revolver in a state of temporary derangement".

Cheers,
GREENOWL
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 06, 2009, 07:40:54 PM

Rudolph's parents said that he died for a heart disease, but people
didn't believe the official explanation and many strange rumours ere invented.


One must bear in mind the fact that Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth were not aware of the true cause of their son's death until 6h00 on the morning of January 31st when Dr. Hermann Widerhofer, Franz-Joseph's personal physician, who had headed the medical commission that was sent to Mayerling the previous afternoon, made his report. Up to that time they were under the impression that the Crown Prince had been poisoned by Mary Vetsera, as that was what Count Hoyos said when he arrived in Vienna with the dreadful news. It was the Prime Minister, Count Taffee, who wrote the official bulletin for the newspapers at midday on January 30th which stated: "His Imperial and Royal Highness, the most serene Crown Prince, Archduke Rudolf died suddenly of heart failure". Strangely enough, even Mary's mother did not question the fact that her daughter was said to have poisoned the Crown Prince. Obviously the presence of Mary was a great scandal that had to be hushed up at all costs, and from that time until the end of the monarchy, her presence at the side of the Crown Prince was never officially admitted.

I find it difficult to believe in the murder theory, as after Mary "went missing" on the morning of January 28th her sister Hanna discovered a suicide note in her (Mary's) bedroom, which read "Dear Mother, by the time you read this I will be in the Danube", so Mary was obviously aware of what was going to happen well in advance and due to her infatuation with Rudolf was willing to do anything that he asked her. However, I often wonder whether the note was motivated by a subconscious desire to prevent her death? I think that Rudolf was very wrong and selfish to have used Mary in such a way and taken advantage of her youthful devotion. He should have known better.

True :-)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Valancy on July 08, 2009, 10:39:32 AM
While it's obvious that convincing a teenager girl to die with you is not (to put it mildly) a nice or good thing to do, I would refrain from accusing Rudolf too much. It's obvious that he was mentally ill and I'm not sure we can hold him accountable for his actions the way we could for people who are completely mentally sound. Usually nobody in their right mind shoots themselves to death, and also nobody in their right mind asks other people to die with them. It's perfectly obvious that Rudolf shouldn't have done what he did, but I also think it's perfectly obvious he was beyond being able to think clearly of what he should do and act accordingly.

This is what often bugs me about the discussions around Rudolf, Elisabeth etc. I'm not for over-romanticising and over-victimising them, but often people take far too little time to consider the fact that neither Rudolf nor Elisabeth was mentally quite healthy. Rudolf less so, I think, but also some of Sisi's extravagances can be put down to a less than ideal state of mental health. Of course we have no psychiatrist's analyses of them because they didn't exist at the time, but it's pretty obvious from reading their biographies that something was wrong with their mental health and so they didn't see their actions in a light that a completely normal person would. Do remember that mental illness is not a choice.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on July 08, 2009, 09:21:19 PM
While it's obvious that convincing a teenager girl to die with you is not (to put it mildly) a nice or good thing to do, I would refrain from accusing Rudolf too much. It's obvious that he was mentally ill and I'm not sure we can hold him accountable for his actions the way we could for people who are completely mentally sound. Usually nobody in their right mind shoots themselves to death, and also nobody in their right mind asks other people to die with them. It's perfectly obvious that Rudolf shouldn't have done what he did, but I also think it's perfectly obvious he was beyond being able to think clearly of what he should do and act accordingly.

This is what often bugs me about the discussions around Rudolf, Elisabeth etc. I'm not for over-romanticising and over-victimising them, but often people take far too little time to consider the fact that neither Rudolf nor Elisabeth was mentally quite healthy. Rudolf less so, I think, but also some of Sisi's extravagances can be put down to a less than ideal state of mental health. Of course we have no psychiatrist's analyses of them because they didn't exist at the time, but it's pretty obvious from reading their biographies that something was wrong with their mental health and so they didn't see their actions in a light that a completely normal person would. Do remember that mental illness is not a choice.

Ever heard about Dr. Freud??
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on July 09, 2009, 05:41:06 AM
...or Richard von Krafft-Ebing (with whom I believe Crown Prince Rudolf had at least one meeting)?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on July 09, 2009, 07:19:41 AM
I do not disagree with the 'need' to see a shrink on both, but I do not believe either was mentally ill. One mostly needed a few very swift kicks in the behind, the other a job! Neither got what they really and truly needed! A very cruel fact! In my native language we have a saying that "kind doctors make for stinky wounds". The theory that Rudolph was mentally ill at the time of the incident with his lover was only a ploy to get a Church 'sponsored' burial. Did he and his mother have issues? YUP they did, mentally ill? NO.
Modern research into some of the issues the Empress Elisabeth had, nowadays, points to abuse (sexual?) in childhood.

Also, during the late 1800's, there were many folks that dove off the bridge into the Danube because of love, money or whatever......maybe something cultural?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on July 09, 2009, 05:23:22 PM
Very difficult to define what "mentally quite healthy" means. According to an article I read, one in every three people suffers some form of mental disorder (dissociative disorders, mood disorders, anxiety disorders, psychotic disorders, eating disorders, developmental disorders, personality disorders, ambulatory disorders etc etc as defined in the guideline criteria listed in the ICD, DSM and other manuals) at some stage in their life.

Empress Elisabeth did suffer from an eating disorder as well as probable anxiety disorders and depression and Crown Prince Rudolf appears to have suffered from depression. However, it was widely accepted that the official finding "Suicide by revolver in a state of temporary derangement" was, as aor states, a ploy to ensure a Catholic burial, as in those days the Catholic Church claimed that anyone who deliberately killed him/herself and was aware of what he/she was doing was a sinner who was not worthy of a catholic burial in consecrated ground. I am of the opinion that the Crown Prince knew what he was doing when he pulled the trigger...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Greenowl on July 09, 2009, 05:26:59 PM

Modern research into some of the issues the Empress Elisabeth had, nowadays, points to abuse (sexual?) in childhood.


That is interesting aor! Can you tell us more? Would the abuse refer to her marriage, as after all, she was only 16 years old when she married Kaiser Franz Joseph.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on July 10, 2009, 10:29:27 AM
Let me see if I can find that specific research paper and I'll post a link. It seems that 85% of women (they only did women) that do suffer from some kind of mental disorder that affects the 'me', have suffered some form of abuse in childhood, mostly sexual abuse. Not certain if the abuse, if so, occurred in childhood or her marriage. Most women that are effected by this, long back to childhood with it's innocence. Also Anorexia, in more severe and lengthy cases, stops the monthly cycle and give the body the look of a child. Very interesting material.
There is not much known about sexual abuse in that timeframe, however, it must have occurred.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 10, 2009, 06:13:52 PM

Modern research into some of the issues the Empress Elisabeth had, nowadays, points to abuse (sexual?) in childhood.


That is interesting aor! Can you tell us more? Would the abuse refer to her marriage, as after all, she was only 16 years old when she married Kaiser Franz Joseph.

Sissi considered that Franz Joseph rapped her in their wedding night, is well known that she disliked
sex very much and she was frigid, but before this unfortunately event I haven't heard anything
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on July 10, 2009, 08:02:16 PM
As she, in my opinion, was still a child at the time of her marriage, it does not surprise me she felt that way. However, we should not forget that it happened in a different time, with different rules. Women were not seen by the majority of men as they are looked upon nowadays.
Also, she was way in over her head! She could not back out as soon as it was announced. It must have all seemed so romantic to her in her childish mind and to be confronted by the cold hard truth of the physical part of marriage, it does not surprise me she felt raped. She was there to provide an heir, I believe she knew this. In turn she was given status, that's how it works. In most Royal families these arranged marriages were commom place, after the first of the 'new' had worn off, men went back to their mistresses and the wife was left to her own.
I think we, as a society, should not look upon their lives with 21st. Century eyes. Don't forget, women were only 2nd. rate creatures. There to please, show off and be a broodmare.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 13, 2009, 07:23:08 PM
Well, it is not exactly the fact that Franz forced her, after all the marriage was consummated 3 days after the wedding. The truth is that Sisi indeed had no idea of what was going on and that Franz perhaps was not the best lover, this dramatic experience for Sisi might have lead to the fact that she really disliked sex and all about it. Ofcourse she was young at the time of her marriage and probably not well-informed about all that was to come in the wedding-night.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Valancy on July 14, 2009, 05:18:24 AM
I am of the opinion that the Crown Prince knew what he was doing when he pulled the trigger...

Of course he did. He wouldn't have written all those goodbye letters, let alone asked people to die with him, if he didn't know shooting himself would mean he'd die, or if he hadn't known dying is pretty serious business. Most suicides do know what they're doing when they kill themselves. That doesn't mean they're thinking right in the larger scale, that they're really thinking like a healthy human being whose main instinct is survival. There's something seriously wrong with the mental health of anyone who kills themselves, and while I don't mean to whitewash Rudolf's actions, it's pretty obvious that they resulted from a serious depression.

I know some people think all mentally ill people just need to get a grip of themselves, but I don't share this opinion. Of course there's a certain degree to which you can affect the state of your mental health with your own attitude and choices, but serious depression doesn't go away just by telling yourself to cheer up and start doing something more useful. It's illness just as a physical illness would be.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on July 25, 2009, 04:49:01 PM
Crown Prince Rudolph and his bride Princess Stephanie of Beligum
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/vonVetsera2.jpg)

Two of a very young Baroness Mary Vetsera :

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/vonVetsera3.jpg)

and here, as a baby with her older brother Ladislas (the poor boy died in a fire when he was 16 and he was so handsome too!pity)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/vonVetsera.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 28, 2009, 04:35:18 PM
I knew that Mary left some strange letters to her mother before her death, for that reason her
mother suspected that Mary was in problems, in fact the letters suggested something about death.
Well, I didn't read them exactly :-(
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 28, 2009, 04:38:22 PM
Stephanie looks very beautiful in this painting, about the lasts of Mary are unknown for me.
Poor boy, he had a sad death. Mary Vetsera looks very nice as girl, yes this boy was handsome;-)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on July 29, 2009, 01:04:01 PM
Hello, all. Finally my scanner is repaired and I amhere wth the first load of new scans. I am quite certain those are not new t all, but Irina Alexadrovna asked me to pot them.



(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/CrownPrinceRudolf1865.jpg)
Crown Prince Rudolf, 1865

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/CrownPrinceRudolf1878.jpg)
Crown Prince Rudolf, 1878

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/CrownPrinceRudolf.jpg)
Crown Prince Rudolf

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/EmperorFranzJosephandtheyoungCrownP.jpg)
Emperor Franz Joseph and his son

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/CrownPrinceRudolfandCrownPrinceWilh.jpg)
Crown Prince Rudolf, Crown Prince Wilhelm

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/CrownPrinceRudolfandCrownPrincessSt.jpg)
Crown Prince Rudolf and Crown Princess Stephanie

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/MizziCaspar.jpg)
Mizz Caspar, Crown Prince Rudolf's "Official" Mistress

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/MaryVetsera1888.jpg)
Mary Vetsera,1888

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/MaryVetsera1889.jpg)
Mary Vetsera, 1888

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/MaryVetserasGrave.jpg)
Mary Vetsera's grave

(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g186/daysfan-be/Royal/RudolfMemorialatAchilleonCorfu-Sisi.jpg)
Memorial for Rudolf, Corfu
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 29, 2009, 02:32:28 PM
great pictures! in special that one of Franz Joseph *0*

A very young Rudolph

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/Stella_sabata/rudolfaustria1858-21.jpg)

An illustration of a toddler Rudolph

(http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk70/Stella_sabata/rudolfaustria1858-19.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on July 31, 2009, 05:50:45 PM
Rudolph looks lovely as a boy, thank you for posting that images, altough
many of them were posted on Sissi's thread
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 03, 2009, 07:49:15 PM
Stephanie (widow?)

http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/107822/1/Crown-Princess-Stephanie-Of-Belgium,-Consort-To-Crown-Prince-Rudolf-Of-Austria-$281858-89$29,-1881.jpg (http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/107822/1/Crown-Princess-Stephanie-Of-Belgium,-Consort-To-Crown-Prince-Rudolf-Of-Austria-$281858-89$29,-1881.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 03, 2009, 07:52:54 PM
i doubt it. The dress looks like an early 1880s gown.

Handsome and dapper Rudolph

(http://i26.tinypic.com/30kbqyb.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on August 03, 2009, 08:37:15 PM


Rudolph timeline

(http://i28.tinypic.com/2hyzd4k.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 04, 2009, 06:48:31 PM
Here one more about the young Crown Prince Rudolph, I don’t remember if someone has posted it before, excuse me if it’s posted.
http://worldofroyaltyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rudolf.jpg (http://worldofroyaltyblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rudolf.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Madame-Sisi on August 08, 2009, 05:38:06 AM
nice pics of rudolph!

without the beard i find him very handsome...if i lived back then i would be happy 2 be mary vetsera or mitzi caspar :p
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Royal Bulgaria on August 08, 2009, 06:23:25 AM
nice pics of rudolph!

without the beard i find him very handsome...if i lived back then i would be happy 2 be mary vetsera or mitzi caspar :p

Ha but you know if you were Mary for example you take all her life you know this?With the end?I would like to be born in 1895 or something and to be young lady in the 20' s 30's good time for living....
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 08, 2009, 06:28:24 AM
nice pics of rudolph!

without the beard i find him very handsome...if i lived back then i would be happy 2 be mary vetsera or mitzi caspar :p

Keep in mind that medical help was not well advanced....... ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 12, 2009, 11:03:02 AM
The crown prince was very handsome when he was young, but sadly in his last photos
he looks very bad, poor he looks older than he was, is really sad to think about this. I read
that he started looking as this ways for the drugs that he used the last years of his life.
 :-(
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: carl fraley on November 06, 2009, 04:17:17 AM
SO just out of curiousity if permission was given to exhume the body of HI & RH Crown Prince Rudolph for Testing to find out what happened, who's decision would it be?  His own descendants through his daughter HIH Archduchess Elizabeth or HIH Archduke OTTO as Head of the Imperial House? 

Who actually has say so over the Imperial Crypt?

From a legal point wouldn't it be Rudolph's own descendants since Austria doesn't legally recognise the Imperial House?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: nena on January 31, 2010, 09:29:41 AM
And I will pay tribute to beloved Crown Prince Rudolf and his mistress Marty Vetsera who died tragically and under all those mysterious circumstances on that January morning in 1889.
--------------
Mayerling accident has always been linked with Sarajevo episode in 1914. I sometimes really wonder, would the World War 1st have happened, if Rudolf had been the new Emperor of the Empire. If he hadn't died, most likely he would give more freedom to other nationalities in Empire (Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, and so on....). Most likely he would, since he was known as 'liberal Prince'. And I don't know would annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1908 would have happened? Maybe Revolts would never happen, and maybe that maybe already doomed Empire would have lived longer...?
------------
Mayelring is a haunting story, tragic and short Romance, deaths resulted love colored in dozens and dozens books and movies. IMO, he didn't kill Mary. He simply couldn't. Just IMO.  I know that he was a suicidal person, I saw his drawings he did while he was boy, and they are filled with blood and violence scenes. I was shocked. I somehow like that story. I read about it a bit, and I dislike all stories about Mary's remains, they were digged up and moved several times...I just think that he killed himself (strange , some source label that he was murdered).I think he killed himself and Mary was either murdered or died accidentally. From what I have heard, she died first. I feel sorry for them. I also like the way they look. Btw, I was shocked by large number of photos taken of them.  
-----------
R.I.P. Crown Prince Rudolf and Baroness Mary Vetsera (who died tragically on January 30th 1889).

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/V_hac01098_p1900065.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/V_hac01098_p1900103.jpg)
--------------------------------

The Funeral of young prince and Alter Sloss Mayerling :

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_80081337.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/?action=view&current=80081337.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_mayerling.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/?action=view&current=mayerling.jpg)

Allegedly his last photo taken on January 27th 1889:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_Januar271889lastphoto.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/?action=view&current=Januar271889lastphoto.jpg)

From magazine 'Royal Romances', Princess Stephanie of Belgium describes Mary:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_258920529_o.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/?action=view&current=258920529_o.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_258920630_o.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/?action=view&current=258920630_o.jpg)
Direct links : Page 1  (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_258920529_o.jpg) ; Page 2 (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_258920630_o.jpg).

Rudolph and Stephanie:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_34986688.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/?action=view&current=34986688.jpg)

From a movie and a card dedicated to young Prince:

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_V_a7a08b48_065.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/?action=view&current=V_a7a08b48_065.jpg)(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/th_158_001.jpg) (http://s185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/Rojali/?action=view&current=158_001.jpg)
----------------------------------------------------------------

All photos belong to archives and to owners.


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on January 31, 2010, 10:23:03 AM
Rest in peace, Rudolph!

(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6493/579v.jpg)


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on February 02, 2010, 08:02:23 AM
Unknown for me this painting of Marie Vetsera, she looks better on it than in photos
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on February 10, 2010, 01:36:51 PM
Well, we all know Mary was not the greatest beauty, I certainly think she was charming but not too beautiful. Whatever happens, I believe the original story - Mary's letters prove it, either he killed her or she did it herself -

It does remain a haunting story, up to this day, the way Mary's body was handled, the burials and all that simply seem to come from a horror movie... And in all this Mary is lost as the sweet young girl who had fell in love with the handsome prince, but Mary was not sweet and naive, neither she was manipulative. She was simply a teenager who adored Rudolf and loved him so deeply that she chose death over life...

As Mary herself wrote it in her final letter, she could not live without Rudolf and chose to share his fate... And I do understand Rudolf, he was not the kind of man who should have married, like his mother he wanted too much freedom and was too restless to be in a long relationship, he needed his freedom and the only woman who did not really claim him was Mizzi, he asked her to die with him first(which must mean something), he even asked Stephanie and then Mary.... It certainly was not true love, they spend too little time together(as a couple) to know all that, it was simply love - not true love, for as far that exists - but no matter what happened, it makes a great tragic romance as it certainly must have been. But we must not forget that Rudolf was suicidal but also afraid to die alone, and Mary was giving all that up for him... So he chose her.

Also I intend to buy the autobiography of Princess Stephanie 'I was to be Empress' which recounts her side of this tragic tale.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 12, 2010, 02:24:56 PM
Perhaps they are
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/MayerlingVetsera.jpg)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/VictorianGowns/Maria.jpg)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 13, 2010, 10:50:57 AM


here the large version of the first one posted

(http://i41.tinypic.com/jzgwp.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Linnie on March 13, 2010, 06:08:17 PM
A few months ago, I bought a special issue of the French magazine Point de vue on some historical enigmas, and there was an article on Crown Prince Rudolph death and some pictures. The most startling (to me, anyway) was a nude painting of Mary Vetsera, said to have surfaced a few years back. The painting, if it happens to be genuine, does contradict the image of Mary Vetsera as a virgin, chaste, ingenue young girl. Has anyone else seen it?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on March 13, 2010, 06:16:41 PM
Do you mean this?

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Fu5ATGKBQdFTW7j6qkg9Yg

I was confused, too, when I saw it.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 13, 2010, 08:42:51 PM
I really doubt that Marie was even a virgin at 15, she was sweet but also stupid (not saying teens are stupid but come on having killing yourself or let someone kill you over puppy love? really stupid of you).   Because She had an English older boyfriend at 15 for awhile and even had a Portuguese Prince drooling over her, not sure what happened between them.

Rudolph didn't really love her in my opinion, he was a coward- and didn't wanna die alone so asking both his Official Mistress and Wife to die with him, both said no, then asking a naive teenager that has the hots for you and do anything for you = both dead.

Its a real shame, Rudolph didn't get medical help like they have now a days and that Marie allowed herself to end her life by the man she loved. Also I feel bad for Countess Larisch- the go between liar-  she too got caught in this, however I think she was innocent over the issue of Mayerling .  I have sympathy for Emperor Franz Josef but not for Empress Sissi.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Linnie on March 14, 2010, 11:23:28 AM
Yes, that is the painting.
I have always thought that young noble girls destined to marry well had to remain pure up until their wedding. Also, Mary's mother was very ambitious for her daughter and, for that reason, must have kept a very close eye on her daughter's relationships. So, I am confused. According to the magazine, the painting was made for one of Mary's admirers. How could her mother not know?
I have never thought that Mary Vetsera was Rudolph's great love. She loved him, but he must have been to disillusioned to be in love.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kalafrana on March 14, 2010, 11:54:35 AM
My personal view is that Mary Vetsera was a starry-eyed young thing who fell for the ideal of Rudolf rather than the reality - rather like modern teenage girls becoming obsessed with pop singers. Rudolf wasn't in love with her. To put it at the most charitable, she was no more than a passing fling, but he needed someone to die with, and he picked on her. There is a parallel, I think between Rudolf and Mary and Dodi Fayed and Diana. No suicide in the latter case (or anything beyond an accident), but their association was no more than a passing fancy on both sides which would have fizzled out had they not been killed.

I too find the actions of Mary's mother. If she had been from a lower level of society I could see that she might think becoming the mistress of the Crown Prince was a good career move for her daughter, but not when she was at the level she actually was.

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 16, 2010, 11:53:03 AM
I knew that Marie Vetsera stoped being virgin at 15-16, when her mother knew that she tryied to marry her as fast as she could, but unsuccesfully
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 16, 2010, 12:08:59 PM
 Yes, but also "stoped being virgin" isn't the right way to put it and no such thing, its "losing her virginity" ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on March 16, 2010, 03:18:08 PM
Yes, sorry. English isn't my mother tongue and I didn't have a dictionary at my side to check it
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 16, 2010, 03:24:17 PM
Use google. English isnt my native language either but Google and PAralink translator helps me a lot.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: newfan on March 16, 2010, 08:06:38 PM
Yes, sorry. English isn't my mother tongue and I didn't have a dictionary at my side to check it
I thing everybody gets what she wanted to say
This forum has lots a non native English speakers
many times even natives cant spell correctly
Whats the need for constant pointing out..little things like that???
Its hard to translate some things...even google doesn't gets it many times
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on March 16, 2010, 08:45:03 PM
I think its right when poeple correct other. Helps me to learn, which is good. And google does helps if you know how to use it well, at least works a lot for me (and also helps that i put attention to my english classes cause i know in this 21th century you MUST know how to speak properly in english)

Now back to the topic, a book cover with Rudolph and Wilhelm II

(http://i39.tinypic.com/15eiyhw.jpg)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on March 16, 2010, 11:05:53 PM
Kaiserin Alzbeta Sissi - Its nothing personal. spelling mistakes happen to everyone, btw your English is fine. ;)

newfan - Yes, I too understood but they way but this is an English speaking forum and correct spelling is advised (thats why there is "Spell check ;) ), I'm just following the rules.


anyways.. back to Rudolph.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on April 17, 2010, 07:12:51 AM
Well, seems I missed a little discussion on here... Shame for my computer crashing on me.

Rudolf and Mary were certainly not "meant to be", that kind of love does not even exist... It simply is a romantic idea, but that's the end to it.
I agree with everyone saying that Rudolf did not love Mary, he must have cared for her, but he did not love her and as for Mary, she was a young girl in love and it most likely was the kind of "love" most teenage girls have for their idols. Also as for Mary's virginity, I'm not sure about that, as I've only read a few books on the case - and most do not mention much about Mary(just the basic facts, as whom courted her and a biography of her life). Also I do not believe in asassination, Rudolf's state of mind alone was enough to be sure that he killed her and himself.

Also it is a curious thing that the Austrian Court tried to cover it up for all these years and that papers relating to the event almost all have vanished. I think that is one of the reasons why people keep being fascinated by this tragedy. Also I do not like Franz Joseph and how he dealt with this. Of course it is obvious they had to cover it up for the sake of the Prestige of the Habsburgs, but still I find that man rather cold... He is one of the reasons Rudolf became who he was, and so was the Empress Elisabeth, and the fact that things never worked well between Franz and his son is most likely because Franz could not see things the way Rudolf saw them because their way of upbringing was totally different. Though I understand Rudolf's character - he was so much like his mother - and I actually think that he had a huge chance of becoming depressed up from an early age as he was sensitive in character and could not deal well with emotional suffering. I do say this because even now people have that problem... One who is highly emotional and sensitive has a bigger chance of ending up depressed, so I've often heard, especially when you feel misunderstood and don't get help.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: nena on April 17, 2010, 08:03:58 AM
Well, I have seen copy of Rudolf's final letter, where he states - 'I peacefully go into death....'. (Here is the link (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/BHN9MD.jpg).)It indicates our fantasies in heads that he wanted to die. So badly and as soon as possible. But he terribly needed someone who would follow him ; Mary's wish for unity with him was his feed, I must admit. And it would be kind of a symbiosis between them two.

I do believe in her 'love' towards him, almost mesmerized fallen in love girl she was,  but I don't believe in his love towards her. He was older ,matured and experienced. It seems to me that he could hypnotize her with his words.

When I saw his drawings he did, at age 6, I was supposed to see bloodshed in all directions over the paper. I was really shocked. What kid at age of 6 would do drawings like those? Maybe I even did, I can't recall. If there two shots could be heard at Mayerling, then I am 100 percentile right that at least ONE of them was MURDERED. Either Mary by Rudolf, or he by himself. (bit humorous I know).

I am not the one who can blame him, but I hear some labels him like a coward. I will remain untold, since I don't know what can I say. They met in the end of 1888 and ended their ballad three months later. I dislike the relationship between Rudolf and his father, they were misfits in others eyes. Unlike Sissi, who knew his soul, in and out, from toes up to head. I wonder how must their parents have felt...

But everything in life we do , we do for only one purpose - to be happy. Sometimes we are right , but sometimes highly wrong. I know it is hard to fight for someone/something who/that means to you, but how important it is to save it. And I understand him too - he did something he had thought he would be happy afterward. Is that selfishness or not, I really don't know.

And there is one thing more - coldness at the Court he couldn't bare with. He wanted to escape, and he did. But he couldn't escape from himself. Gee, I never thought I would be interested into Hapsburgs. But anything's possible.  

(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x139/nemanjapr/pic5_big.jpg)
Who is Rudolf now?

Bit....to make smiles here.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 27, 2010, 01:42:07 PM
What a cute little thing!!!

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2whh0xu.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 27, 2010, 02:21:35 PM
Mary Vetsera
 (http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/56465175.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=45B0EB3381F7834DB9AE5AED52D851676B290986F98F4F3C278601BBB588273B)
I wonder if she was really blonde
Two about Rudolph's burial
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Royalty/DeadRudolph.jpg)
(http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Royalty/DeadCrownPrince.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 27, 2010, 02:24:54 PM
your link doesnt work.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 27, 2010, 02:51:46 PM
http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Royalty/MaryVetsera.jpg (http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt94/KaiserinCharlotte/Royalty/MaryVetsera.jpg)
Surely based on a photo of her.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on April 27, 2010, 02:53:43 PM
Yup. I ve seen a picture like that of her. If i had time i d check this same topic., im sure it was posted before.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 28, 2010, 02:55:30 PM
It based on a photo, I only posted it because I'm not sure of the color of her hair. Short time ago I saw a painting of her and next to it was some hair that looked red or blond but the caption was in czech, so if someone knows...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on April 29, 2010, 09:55:56 AM
Well, at the time of her death Mary was dark-haired so I'm guessing that as a child she was dark-blonde(I saw a picture of here as a toddler, adorable, and there she's clearly blonde). Happens to most of us, as I was blonde as a kid and now am dark-blonde.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on April 29, 2010, 01:34:00 PM
Thanks for the fact, surely her hair became a bit darker with the time
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 03, 2010, 03:08:11 PM
The next dress belonged to Mary Vetsera, well... better to say, it remained of a dress that belonged Mary
http://nd03.jxs.cz/473/762/d6cfef5eb4_63286808_o2.jpg (http://nd03.jxs.cz/473/762/d6cfef5eb4_63286808_o2.jpg)
Perhaps this was the dress
so known photo
http://nd03.jxs.cz/398/454/93ede6e7e1_63286732_o2.jpg (http://nd03.jxs.cz/398/454/93ede6e7e1_63286732_o2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Veronica on May 03, 2010, 03:59:49 PM
The next dress belonged to Mary Vetsera, well... better to say, it remained of a dress that belonged Mary
http://nd03.jxs.cz/473/762/d6cfef5eb4_63286808_o2.jpg (http://nd03.jxs.cz/473/762/d6cfef5eb4_63286808_o2.jpg)

That's the dress she was buried with. In 1991 her grave was opened and her body exhumed. Photos were taken of her skeleton and her clothes, and her remains were examined by forensic and dental experts.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on May 04, 2010, 07:02:47 AM
Wow! It wasn't as damaged at it would be for being buried for a bit more than 100 years...!!!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on May 29, 2010, 04:14:05 PM
Yes... I believe those tests proved that she was killed by a gunshot... However I still have to read "Crime at Mayerling - The Lif and Death of Mary Vetsera", so I'm not sure about that.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on June 01, 2010, 01:27:51 PM
Allegory about Rudolph's death
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Palace/Rudolf1.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 01, 2010, 01:29:47 PM
New one from the ONB. One of the  best i ve seen of him

(http://i49.tinypic.com/sqhw6q.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 12, 2010, 11:32:15 AM


The book "The Mayerling Murder" by Victor Wolfson, with the help of Prince F.J.N. Windisch-Graetz, supports their argument that Rudolf was killed on orders of Otto von Bismarck, who no doubt was as ruthless a man as they make them, because he feared that Rudolf would forge an alliance with France and England against Germany.  If this would have happened, then Germany might have been no more -- so the motive is certainly there.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 17, 2010, 08:11:36 AM
i know this topic has been discussed before but the last post was on the 16th January 2008 , so i decided to start a new topic. so here it goes does anyone have any pictures of the room in Mayerling that Rudolph and Mary died in ?

Long time between posts.   Here's a drawing of Rudolf's bedroom on the ground floor.   Was this the room where they were found dead?

http://www.imageshugger.com/images/8i1p8380fwa8bkidz3v.jpg

One has to wonder why they had to go to such great lengths to knock down a door when there were big windows on either side of the bed and the bedroom was on the ground floor?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on June 21, 2010, 08:31:13 AM
I believe the room where this tragedy took place, was on the second floor of Mayerling.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 21, 2010, 10:28:31 PM
 Hi Aor -- would you remember where you heard the room was on the 2nd floor?   The sources I have seen -- though not a lot -- all say the ground floor.   

--In A Nervous Splendor, it tells how after Loschek got no response from knocking on Rudolf's door, he ran up the main stairs of the two-story lodge and down a small spiral staircase  leading to the back door of the bedroom.  So this clearly indicates the room was on the ground floor.

--The Mayerling Murder  states that The New York Times on Feb 2nd, 1889, reported the assumption by the people in Mayerling region that the window to the left..........had been opened and the sleepers murdered.  This ground floor room faced the southwest and had two large windows about 20 feet apart, and between them stood the bed.

-- Rudolf's private secretary in The Last Days of the Archduke Rudolph, 1916 says that, "All concerned retired after two o'clock in the morning -- the Archduke and the lady to the sleeping chamber on the ground floor."

It makes little sense though that Loschek would have had to break down a solid wooden door with an ax if ground floor windows were available. 

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on June 24, 2010, 07:35:21 AM
I remember seeing a period photograph of the windows in the rooms of the Archduke Rudolph. They had a black cross over them and they did not seem to be on the bottom floor. I'll check my books over the weekend and see if I can locate this picture. Also, I think that first floor locations were 'public space' and private quarters were on the next level up.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 24, 2010, 09:19:03 AM
Floorplan of ground floor of Mayerling given earlier in this thread by brnbg aka: liljones1968: 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlinggrndfl.jpg

Upper floor or 1st Floor:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerling1stfl.jpg

Also, the ground floor windows look easily accessible:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/skinheadbrian/mayerlingcourtyard.jpg

So why did Loschek have to use an axe to break down the bedroom door after pounding on it for a long time?   Is that what really happened?  Was Loschek telling the truth, or was he saying what he was told to say?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 29, 2010, 03:19:43 PM
  Now I must admit to being a little shocked, but then everything about the Meyerling mystery is one surprise after another and where the truth is could be anyone's guess.  In the book "He did not die at Meyerling", the author mentioned meeting with Rudolf and Franz Ferdinand one or more times and spoke highly of Franz, so it's not like he didn't know him.  Some people may  just be terrible at photo recognition, but still, you'd think there was some editing for a book!

Despite all, this book still seemed plausible for several reasons.  It was supposedly written by a son of CP Rudolf, who was very circumspect about giving any information out that might identify himself or his adopted family.  He said he wrote the book to set the record straight and to repair the memory and reputation of his father.  He was in his late 60s when his book was published in 1937 and he claimed absolutely no interest in reclaiming his heritage.
 
Interestingly someone named Robert Pachmann first filed for recognition as CP Rudolf's legitimate son in 1937, but from the dates, he would have been about 5 years younger than the author (R) of the above book.  Pachmann kept up his fight for recognition for the next ~30 years.
 
R's side of the story was that after the semi-coup was overturned, CP Rudolf went to his father to deny any intention of replacing him as emperor, but Franz Joseph was angry still and made Rudolf sign a renunciation of succession for himself and all his children and told him he was not fit to be crown prince.   So Rudolf decided to fake his death and move to another continent.  Rudolf had a close friend who became R's foster father who was only referred to as the doctor, since he was a surgeon and an artist.   The plan was through the doctor's contacts to get a body from the morgue resembling Rudolf, and then the doctor would redo the face using wax molds.  His work was about done at Meyerling when Maria Vetsera showed up unexpectedly and thought Rudolf had been killed and she then started fighting with some of the guards surrounding the procedure and she was accidentally shot in the torso.
 
The couple reasons I think there may be some validity to it is the Emperor was beside himself with grief during the funeral, but within a few weeks, he was unusually cheerful.  I don't remember where I read that (not the book) but his quickly recovered cheerful mood was a mystery to many close to him, knowing how much he suffered when his son supposedly killed himself.
 
The other reason is the disappearance of Rudolf's close friends, including John Orth, at about the same time.  I also think Bratfisch and Larisch moved to South America at about the same time as Rudolf's "death".  Why would all these people suddenly move to the other side of the world when Rudolf died?
 
Then there's another story where some thought it was Rudolf who showed up in El Salvador in the late 1880's who became the father in ~1898 of an uncle to the wife of Nash, the protaganist in the movie "A Beautiful Mind".  This wife came from a prominant family named Larde' in El Salvador.  http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~lamperti/Justo_Armas.html

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on June 29, 2010, 09:14:12 PM
not so sure about that, he was body was there at Meyerling. it was his body and dead. that story sounds pretty wacked out.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 29, 2010, 09:57:18 PM
I thought the story sounded purdy wacked out too, mostly because there were 3 doctors at the autopsy, and they would have noticed a wax carved face.  However, it is now known that these 3 physicians at the autopsy were willing to lie and say Rudolf's brain anatomy showed particular signs of insanity which we now know is impossible to determine from an autopsy.  So if they were willing to lie about that, what else would they be willing to lie about under orders from the Emperor?

Franz Joseph's younger brother (Archduke Karl Ludwig) said the truth was so much worse than the official version, but I have to wonder what is so much worse than a murder-suicide?   It's all so strange.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 30, 2010, 07:49:13 AM
More terrible? someone of the goverment or near of him killing both.(im not saying this happened, but im imagining a "Worst case scenario")
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 30, 2010, 09:01:11 AM

Very true -- if an allied government or someone closer to Rudolf killed both him and Vetsera, that would be worse --- for them that is.  

But the murder-suicide version is the worse thing that could have happened to Rudolf's reputation and his legacy of political ideas.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 30, 2010, 09:04:36 AM
Yes , i agree.

Question: Did someone questioned his mental health due those bloody drawns he used to do and his general conduct?. Thanks in advanced.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 30, 2010, 09:36:16 AM
There is so much contradictory evidence about Rudolf, I don't know what to believe.   I've heard about the bloody drawings.   What was their original source?  Was it Latour or his first tudor or someone else?   If it was his 1st tudor, then it might be a reasonable response by Rudolf since this first tudor was so mean and vicious towards Rudolf. 

As for Rudolf's general conduct, that was viewed differently depending on who was doing the viewing.   It does seem everyone agrees Rudolf was one of the "bad boys" (as they call them today), he was a player and liked to gamble and so was in deep debt.  However, one author claimed that was only a cover for his political activities, since politics was his life, and anyway, his father and court wanted him to be distracted by women and wanton ways, and so he was given the dissolute Bombelles as his social mentor as soon as he became of age and was removed from the influence of the more reasonable Latour.

At any rate, various authors give grades ranging from A+ for F- for Rudolf's conduct.   There is one thing without a doubt I have noticed from studying his photos though and that is he had a certain vacant look about him, as if he had retreated to somewhere else.  I noticed the exact same look in Albert Edward, prince of Wales, later Edward VII.   Maybe it's a look that came from having to spend too much time at royal pomp and ceremony occasions when they preferred to be elsewhere?  Or maybe it came from both having severe childhoods with hostile or absent parents?  I haven't noticed that vacant look with any other well-known public figures on which I have studied.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 30, 2010, 09:44:52 AM
He had Syphilis Right?, That disease in certain point drives people crazy, no?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 30, 2010, 10:21:59 AM
Yes, Syphilis was known to drive people insane, but there was no evidence Rudolf had syphilis.  He might have had gonorrhea, but I'm not sure what the evidence was for that?   Was that from the memoirs of Crown Princess Stephanie?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 30, 2010, 10:28:07 AM
Thanks for the correction!. Well, yes, Rudolph infected Stephanie and because of that she couldnt have more kids.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on June 30, 2010, 08:42:27 PM
According to Carl Lonyay, the nephew and heir of Stephanie's 2nd husband, it was known before she married Rudolf that he had a venereal disease, but at the time it was more important to her to be Empress, so it was a non-issue at the time of their marriage.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on July 09, 2010, 12:11:44 PM
Here's an article from only a few months after the death of Rudolf and Vetsera at Mayerling.  Notice, it won't even spell out the name of Vetsera.  It's the "Temple Bar", a London Magazine.  Scroll down and the coverage starts on page 491:  "The tragical death of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Austria-Hungary will exercise both the historians and the romance writers of the future".  They sure guessed that right.  

It will be interesting to see how the versions of the Mayerling tragedy differ from soon after it happened to those versions written decades later.  Since there was never any official investigation into these deaths -- or the investigation was opened and closed within a day -- then it might be reasonable to assume that the freshness of the evidence might give certain perspectives that would differ markedly from those written decades later.  In other words, the sooner the writing, the more unvarnished the truth might be.  

This April 1989 article says that Marie__________ showed up at the schloss after Rudolf had been there for awhile with Hoyos and Prince Philipp.  She had run away from her mother's house in Vienna and made a tearful plea to Rudolf not to desert her............but the Prince's feelings towards her were of a much cooler sort than hers towards him.  There is nothing to show that he ever entertained a strong passion for her;  but, weak in health, and worried as he was, her distress unnerved him, and he had not the courage to send her away.  Prince Philipp of  Coburg tried hard to persuade him to return to Vienna and attend a court dinner, but he refused, so Prince Philipp went back to Vienna alone........................the girl then made another hysterical plea to Rudolf not to forsake her, and he was obliged to tell her of the peremptory orders from the Emperor that he was to stop seeing her.
 
Quote
Upon this Marie turned away, and, unseen by the Prince, swallowed the contents of a paper full of strychnine powder. The violent poison took almost immediate effect, and the unfortunate girl rolled on the floor uttering piercing screams. The Prince's valet came to the rescue and was frantically told to run and fetch a doctor; but before he could leave the house on this errand, he was called back and required to give assistance in lifting Marie on to a bed. She died in convulsions about half an hour afterwards.  The Crown Prince, in his terror and consternation, probably made up his mind at that time that he would commit suicide; but after the first outburst of his grief was over, he grew calm and ordered his valet to say nothing of what had occurred. Marie was covered with a white sheet; and the Prince, taking some flowers from a vase, scattered them over this shroud. He then went into another room to dine with Count Joseph Hoyos, and the valet naturally supposed that the two would concert means for informing Marie's friends of her death. So he remained silent as he had been ordered, and spoke not a word of what he had seen to the other servants.

The Crown Prince ate little at dinner, but drank feverishly, and several times left the room to go and look at Marie 's body and to write letters. After dinner a cabman who had driven the Prince to Meyerling and had put up his horses in the stables of a neighbouring villa, was introduced into the dining-room to sing comic songs before Count Hoyos. The Crown Prince entered the room occasionally, but was too agitated to sit down, and he complained of headache. Yet he was loth that the Count and the cabman should separate, and he kept these strange guests up till three in the morning.  

 Count Hoyos then went to bed, and the coachman left the house. The Prince's valet was also told to go to bed, but feeling uneasy he went and lay down in his clothes. Dropping off to sleep, however, he only awoke at about half-past seven in the morning, when Prince Philip of Coburg returned from Vienna with the intention of not losing sight of the Crown Prince any more.

The valet went to inform his master of Prince Philip's arrival, and found him sitting half dressed on the side of his bed. The Crown Prince gave orders to prepare the guns for shooting, and the valet went away to do this, but returning in about twenty minutes heard a shot, and rushing to the Prince's door found it locked. Prince Philip and Count Hoyos were summoned. The door was broken open, and the Crown Prince was then seen lying dead on the bed, beside the lifeless figure of Marie.

It had taken the Prince nearly twelve hours after Marie's death to nerve himself to this act of desperation
.

see page 503   http://tinyurl.com/27b3wlg        http://tinyurl.com/35qb8lz

It finishes by saying all other versions as to the causes or circumstances of his death are fanciful.  While that may be debatable, at least this version seems more plausible than many of the others out there.  It accounts for the lack of a bullet would in the skull of Marie Vetsera as noted from later raids on her grave.  It also accounts for the 10-12 hours difference in the deaths in a more likely fashion.  As an idealist, Rudolf could have felt overwhelming guilt and responsibility for the death of MV, without having to have pulled a trigger.

Unfortunately, what this article does not account for are the statements of Count Hoyos, where he claims he dined with Rudolph from 7pm to 9pm and that Rudolf was in a wonderful mood and at his most charming and ate and drank with gusto.  Even though Hoyos memory seemed to fail him at times, this article also fails to account for the later reports that Bratfisch (the cabman) later entertained Rudolf and M Vetsera until 2am with his singing.

Finally, this article did clear up some confusion, at least for me, concerning the relationship between Rudolf and his father.  The Emperor had not planned to become emperor so he had little formal education or book learning and his mother may not have seen the importance of it.  The Emperor
Quote
thus felt for books that regard which comes from a sense of lost opportunities concerning them, and he was disposed to think that the secret of wisdom lay in much reading.............so in his twelfth year the unfortunate little Crown Prince had three resident tutors and fifteen professors.  He was learning Latin, Greek, German, English, French, Italian, Hungarian, Polish, and Czech—also Natural History, Political Economy, Jurisprudence, Austrian History, Bohemian History, and Hungarian History—besides common History, Geography, Mathematics, and Military Tactics.

This makes it clear that Franz Joseph took great interest in his son's education and had high expectations of him, since who else could have imposed this strict educational regimen onto Rudolf?  Certainly not the Archduchess Sophie, or the camarilla and it's highly unlikely the Empress Elizabeth would do this  either since she was usually gone, and even if not, she valued the freedom of time more than that given to Rudolf in his education.  So the idea that Franz Joseph jealously guarded his power, and was merely self-centered and shallow like a petty bureaucrat is most likely not true in regards to his relationship with his son.



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on July 13, 2010, 12:25:06 PM
I've looked high and low for Crown Prince Rudolf's coat of arms.  Where could it be?  Or did he even have one?

Could it be a variation on the common medium coat of arms for Austria-Hangary used until 1915:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Kaisertum_%C3%96sterreich_1867_%28Mittel%29.png
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on July 19, 2010, 09:29:06 AM
I assume this must be Rudolf's coat of arms since it looks similar to that of his mother.   I've searched high and low to confirm this but cannot find it anywhere so it must be a rare and obscure photo?

(http://i25.tinypic.com/2ufeuk2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 19, 2010, 10:55:40 AM
Attention Post #474 and " Pezzazz:"  He certainly would have had a somewhat elaborate coat of arms "differenced" for his rank and dignity. While I cannot conclusively confirm that the coat of arms in your illustration IS indeed the Crown Prince's, I feel rather certain (and I don't have the book in front of me at this moment) that this is the coat of arms depicted on the cover of that mysterious book that has been already mentioned on this Forum, entitled:  "He Did Not Die At Mayerling." While the arms shown are somewhat stylized, they DO contain the elements that one would expect of his ancestry/dignity. I would think that his arms would turn up as you continue your research.  Good luck!   Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Robert_Hall on July 19, 2010, 11:28:12 AM
AP, I do happen to have the book at hand, and it is exactly the same as shown on P's post. Even the background book cover [slightly faded on my copy]
  I do not, however know if this was the publisher invention, or the actual arms of the  CP Rudolph. 
 I agree that  it meets all the usual Hapsburg's  insignia
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aleksandr pavlovich on July 19, 2010, 11:48:05 AM
Thanks for the confirmation, Robert.  It is odd that you mentioned the "faded" part, since I was startled to see such a deeply-hued blue hardback cover in the illustration!  My copy is faded to a weak "light bluish-purple."  However it IS an old book, but perhaps the dye in that publication did not prove to hold up well.  Regards,  AP.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on July 19, 2010, 02:39:56 PM
At the end of the book "He Did Not Die At Mayerling", there is a paragraph written in code and all Capitals.  I assume it's in code since no known translator will work.   So when I received my copy of the book, there was an old envelope from 1938 which contained a paragraph written on the back and placed at that location.   It said:  

Who steals my purse steals trash ?twas
mine is his and has been slave to thousands
But he that filches from me my good name
robs me of that which ?? ??
and makes me poor indeed
                                      R

W  N  H C IH   O NET  IHSE HCIR

This book was written in 1937, soon after the book "I Was To Be Empress" was written by Crown Princess Stephanie.  The author pointedly made the remark that her book was incorrect and made some unkind statements about her, which was unusual in this book, which was almost positive about everyone else (except Woodrow Wilson).  

What is fascinating is to get somewhat original books where there isn't a lot of repeating what other books have already said and see how they compare.  

So there's another book written 2 years later, in 1939 by Berta Szeps that is an interesting comparison -- since she reproduced a lot of the letters to her father from Rudolf and the transcribed interviews between Szeps and Rudolf.  In the Szeps book there was a 1983 letter by Rudolf which states that the Hungarian Prime Minister, a couple of his ministers and a 4th person had met and decided they needed to have Prince Rudolf as their King.  However, somehow the Viennese powers found about about this meeting, and Rudolf got a long letter from his great uncle, Archduke AA?, listing the reasons why this would not be a good idea.   Szeps notes that Rudolf was bitter about this loss or aborted attempt to make him king.

The book by R "He Did Not Die At Mayerling" states that the reason Rudolf had to flee the country was that 6 years later after the above mentioned event  in Szeps book, some Hungarians met and declared Rudolf their king, but they were sadly mistaken in their assumption that Rudolf would go along with this.  Rudolf tried to explain to his father that he never agreed to anything like this, but his father didn't believe him.  

This suggests to me that Rudolf may have been more serious about becoming King of Hungary than the book by R admits.  On most other points, these 2 books diverge widely.  Szeps book seems intent on making sure Rudolf's death was seen as a suicide and highlights his depressed and anxious state.  Naturally I have to wonder if this isn't a bit of defensiveness due to some who believed Rudolf was murdered by orders of Clemenceau, and the fact that Szeps were closely related to the Clemenceaus.  

Both the R and Szeps books also claim at the end that Rudolf wrote a letter to the pope.  Szeps claims direct communication from Rudolf where he said this letter was seeking to divorce Stephanie.  R claims the letter wasn't seeking to divorce Stephanie, but wanting to clear up a little problem of bigamy, since Rudolf was supposedly already married legally in the eyes of the Church when he married Stephanie.  

It is a fascinating mystery, and somewhere the truth might reveal itself.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on August 10, 2010, 03:34:11 PM
Allegory of the birth of the Crown Prince
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/KaiserinAlzbeta/Queens/Rudi.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on August 22, 2010, 04:18:37 PM
Crown Prince Rudolf would have been 152 years old yesterday if he had lived.  He might have died at Mayerling at age 30, or perhaps according to one book, he didn't die until sometime around 1914 which would have put him in his mid-fifties.

One of the best sources of what really happened comes from the book by Judith, Countess of Listowel called "A Habsburg Tragedy" written in 1978.   Her family was Hungarian aristocrats and her maternal grandfather knew Rudolf as he was a member of the Hungarian Upper House and of the delegation to Austria.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article852684.ece

Her information for what happened came from an heir of the prime minister at the time, Eduard Taaffe, a bitter enemy of Rudolf.  As Prime Minister, and keeper of the papers related to the short investigation into the death, he would be the most likely person to know what really happened -- he might have even been party to it.

So what is this truth that was far worse than any of the versions as Emperor Franz Joseph said at the opening of the Mayerling convent?  As confirmed by both the grandson of Prime Minister Taaffe and by a direct descendent of Crown Prince Rudolf, as well as confirming the contemporary theories of what happened by Papal Nuncio Galimberti and German ambassador Prince Henrich VII Reuss, this is what they believed happened:

"Ten soldiers  of Archduke Albert's (Albrecht -- Emperor FJ's uncle and head of the Austria-Hungarian military) Roll Commandos were dispatched to Mayerling.  The Roll Commando were specially trained troops of the Austrian Army kept ready to carry out special orders at any time and in any place.  The detachment, two of whom were experienced sharpshooters, were hidden in the garden of the Hunting Lodge.  They were given explicit orders that if the Crown Prince had not taken his own life by 6:30am, they were to shoot him.  Rudolf was unable to carry out his desperate intention and accordingly at about 7 am, the two Roll Commando sharpshooters entered his room through the window and shot him."

This version certainly covers all the angles since there is good evidence that Rudolf intended suicide, and there is also good evidence that it was a murder -- and the two together, with the official denial of one part of the tragedy would go far to explain the confusion.

It's not difficult to imagine that Archduke Albrecht could be responsible for this.  He was a man not know for being amiable.  Albrecht had become a bitter enemy of Rudolf who described him as "........really deplorably nervous and could leave nothing and nobody in peace for a moment................and he delights in nosing about, picking quarrels, in intriguing and doing harm for he is malicious".
 
http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/erzalbrecht.html

Another photo of Archduke Albrecht:

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/pejiineznflslgsqctxh.jpg)

Albrecht was a reactionary, ultra-conservative, cold, ruthless and there was a wrong way to do things and his way.  He could not tolerate either Archduke Johann Salvator (who renounced his titles and disappeared as John Orth after Mayerling) or the Crown Prince.   For years Salvator had been taunting the old Albrecht and agitating him to the breaking point since Salvator had few restraints on his behavior.   Here's a photo of Archduke Johann Salvator and notice that Habsburg jaw in both Albrecht and Salvator.

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/wwen0q9alchnh5wjoq2.jpg)

The direct descendents of Archduke Albrecht became the Dukes of Württemberg and the Princely family of Liechtenstein.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on August 22, 2010, 06:32:50 PM
And Mary?


If this is true, wow. I mean it could be true. But he wrote letters to his family, before his death.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on August 23, 2010, 02:04:55 PM

And Mary?


If this is true, wow. I mean it could be true. But he wrote letters to his family, before his death.



Good point Rani -- what about Mary?   Lady Paget, wife of the British Ambassador to Austria at the time, asked the same question:   "Why did they have to kill the girl too?"

My best guess is that Mary showed up unexpectedly -- and she had a Love-To-Die-For on the brain, so it is reasonable to think she killed herself -- hours before Rudolf was killed.  Or maybe they were both murdered at the same time?  

There used to be a custom in the Austrian army that if a soldier was found guilty of some grievous offense, he was visited by a couple officers, given a pistol and told to do the honorable thing.  If he didn't, then someone else would do it for him.  This kind of scenario would explain the suicide letters Rudolf wrote where he said something like ~~ I don't want to die, but I have to.  It's the honorable thing to do~~.  Now it's a sure thing that if Rudolf was worrying about doing the honorable thing to save his name, he most certainly would not have wanted to be found dead in bed with a nude dead mistress next to him.  The 2 possibilities are mutually exclusive.  I've come to the conclusion that the whole spiel about Rudolf wanting someone to die with him was just spin designed to further assassinate his character.

For example, consider the alleged claims by long-term mistress Mitzi Casper that Rudolf had asked her to die in a suicide pact with him.  She apparently reported this to the local police, who took down no documentation and did nothing about it.   (Mitzi never talked, but she was well provided for until she died.)  Now to get a better idea of how silly this scenario is, try to imagine today's Prince Charles asking Camilla to join him in a suicide pact since the fallout from the War of the Wales was getting too messy.   Would anyone here expect Camilla to go to the local police and report that Charles was thinking about suicide?   Haha, I do not think that would have been her response, or the response of any woman in that position.   There were plenty of other people who were older and did care about Rudolf that Mitzi could have by all reasons been expected to go to first, such as Latour or Szeps?  

While the above scenario does explain many of the contradictions and dismisses some of the strange conclusions made from essentially nothing, it still fails to take into account some other possibilities that also come from excellent sources.   For example, what about Empress Zita's claim that it was Georges Clemenceau of France that had Rudolf killed.   Now it is known that it was Crown Prince Rudolf's sister Gisele who told Zita that, so actually, that is also a good source that cannot be easily dismissed.................more on that later.  

Finally I'll close this post with a photo of the lovely Crown Princess Stephanie, who I suspect might have been the source of much of the really awful beliefs commonly accepted about Rudolf today:

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/ymp11ud4ax1naf5zfci.jpg)


Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on August 31, 2010, 01:10:14 AM
Am I one of very few still interested in this subject?  ;)  Anyway, happiness is a new book on the subject and it arrived today:  "My Life Story, from Archduke to Grocer" by Leopold Wolfling (ex-Archduke Leopold of Tuscany).  

So what finally happened between the 'the gravedigger of the Monarchy' as Rudolf referred to his uncle, the Archduke Albrecht, Colonel-in-Chief of the Roll Commando Execution Squad, and Emperor Franz Joseph?  Did FJ suspect what might have happened?  Could FJ have been partly guilty by sin of omission?  Although almost completely blind, Albrecht remained Inspector General until his death in 1895 at the age of 78.  Over a thousand officers attended his State funeral, and the Emperor issued an Order of the Day describing him as the 'ornament and pride' of the army.  However, Archduke Albrecht did have the humiliating experience on 1893 of having to preside when a military commission, set up by Franz Joseph, re-examined Rudolf's drill book and found it so good that it was introduced into the Austrian Army training and used until the Emperor's death in 1916.  Prime Minister Taaffe also resigned in 1893 and died in 1895.

Was Emperor Franz Joseph so ruthless and hard-hearted that he would allow his own son to be murdered as suggested by the activities of those closest to him in policy/decision making, or was this information carefully hidden from him? If it was hidden from him, then why would FJ have agreed to close the investigation into Rudolf's death after less than one day?  Would he not want to know the truth like any normal father?  Or did he know the truth and for whatever reason, thought silence was best?  No matter how many pictures I see of FJ, he always looks like a kind person and incapable of being cold and ruthless to the point he would allow his son to be killed.  

Rudolph: The Tragedy Of Mayerling by Carl Lonyay made claims that the Camarilla could run circles around Franz Joseph who was uneducated and not very intelligent.  They made a point of keeping FJ so busy with busy work that he would have no time to interfere in important decisions of running the country.  They gave him piles and piles of papers every day and asked him to make notes of what he thought was important and then to make sure they were properly filed away (and ignored), and the obsessive bureaucrat in the Emperor loved this type of "work".  His other main occupation was designing uniforms for the military and the micro-management of all his extended relatives, who were also almost all kept out of any important or meaningful activity.  This doesn't seem that unbelievable when comparing the general countenance of Franz Joseph to that of some of his ~contemporaries:

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/oehrj67p7daon4oiwsrc.jpg)

However, some hints can be seen regarding the true feelings of Franz Joseph, not only in his insistence that his son's military drills were put into use over the objection of his advisors, but also in his effective block in preventing Cardinal Rompello from becoming pope.  Cardinal Rompello was on his favorite moral hobby horse soon after the death of Rudolf -- making every effort to prevent Rudolf from  having a Christian burial, and clearly, FJ never forgot or forgave this.

In addition I've often wondered if the unforgiving response of FJ to the assassination of his next heir (Franz Ferdinand) was not a delayed reaction to what he wished he could have done following the death of his own son.  When Franz Ferdinand was killed, Austria immediately made extreme demands on Serbia, and surprisingly, Serbia agreed to all the demands, but then the Austrian government  shocked the world by declaring war on Serbia anyway, and so started WWI.  

Another surprising twist to the story, also inspired by Franz Joseph I suspect, is the rumor that it was French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau who had Rudolf murdered.  This claim came through Empress Zita apparently through Rudolf's sister Gisele.  It's hard to imagine they would make this claim without the approval or knowledge of the Emperor, and it's even harder to imagine there's any truth to it since Rudolf was quite pro-French alliance.   It makes no sense unless it was some red herring used to further confound and bury the tragedy in a mass of confusion.

Franz Joseph died before history found his son to be dissipated, dissolute, immoral, corrupt and weak but powerfully insane.  I'd like to believe that if FJ knew this is how history would judge his son, he would have made some effort to get a better story accepted, and it might have been more truthful, even if that truth was worse for someone else.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on August 31, 2010, 07:40:33 AM
I think that there are a number of people very interested in what really happened at Mayerling. Are we ever going to know the thruth? NO, we are not. The investigation was closed before any true investigation took place. I do believe there is a lot to hide and I also believe it will stay hidden. Too many things 'got lost'.......Taafe and the Mayerling papers, Johann Salvator (Orth) and the metal box. Was this because FJ was guilty (by omission or otherwise) or covering up what he thought was worse then the suicide story. Archduke Albrecht utterly disliked Rudolph. I am not a big 'fan' of the Countess Larish, but I also do not think she lied about everything in the books she wrote. Rudolph was a person without proper guidance, he was super intelligent, but needed a guiding hand, not provided to him by his parents, not Elisabeth, who was more interested in herself or by FJ, who liked being Kaiser and did not wanted to change directions and look at the future and who, like his mother, saw 'things' a little different. I strongly believe if Rudolph would have come to the throne, he would have made a good Kaiser.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: nena on August 31, 2010, 07:43:31 AM
When Franz Ferdinand was killed, Austria immediately made extreme demands on Serbia, and surprisingly, Serbia agreed to all the demands, but then the Austrian government  shocked the world by declaring war on Serbia anyway, and so started WWI.  

Incorrect -- Serbian Government did not agree on the all demands. The Ultimatum of the Austrian Government contained 10 main demands that Serbia had to accept in order war not to break out. The Government hardly accepted nine of them. However, the last demand, and the 10th, requested from Serbian Kingdom to allow to the Austro-Hungarian authorities/investigation body to investigate (all-over the Serbian territory) the cause of the murder that took place in Sarajevo on the hot summer day, June 28th 1914 at eleven o'clock in the morning, when Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Arch-Duchess Sophie were assassinated. Simply, Nikola Pashic, as a head of the Government couldn't have allowed that kind of humiliation to Serbia.

Surprisingly how did the old rule 'cause - consequence' worked out. I am sure that, hadn't Mayerling story occurred, most likely the WW1 would have been delayed for a little while. There are many of others factors that influenced on those events.

By the way, I have always somehow believed that his family knew the truth. I am 100 % correct when I say that at least one of the star-crossed lovers was murdered. It is reported that Emperor Franz Joseph changed some his announcements on regarding the real cause of his son's death. It was supposed to be a heart-attack at first, later on, he had probably 'committed suicide' but with no pact mentioned,  and so on... See the first link below, I'm just repeating the book's lines on regarding Franz Joseph.
 
Thank you for reading.

Post scriptum : There is a book, I believe highly recommended, that link both Mayerling and Sarajevo event , take a look:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1880174

And a movie on the same theme, 'De Mayerling à Sarajevo' from 1940:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032384/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 01, 2010, 10:16:52 AM
Certainly the above theories could all be true... But we will never know the true story. For one, Rudolf wanted his and Mary's letters to be burned - those could have cleared up some things - and all the other reports are contradicting too... Even though I myself will keep up to the suicide, I mean those letters... He certainly must have had the plan to kill himself, and Mary wrote her letters too, we should not forget that.

We can discuss it forever but we will never know the truth, and we all will stick to our own believes. As a close friend of mine said, maybe Rudolf was born too early.... Maybe the world was not ready for his beliefs, which I think too - especially at the Royal Courts - and was there no one who really accepted his views and would change anything about the way of things. This however is no reason to kill yourself... We will never know why he died, why Mary died with him and what lead them to do it. Was she pregnant? Had he done something unforgivable? We won't know that, too much time has passed since.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 01, 2010, 11:50:44 AM
Here's excerpts from the alleged farewell letters written by the allegedly insane Rudolf:

Quote
Dear Stephanie,
............................. ..............I am going tranquilly to death, which alone can save my good name.  

I embrace you most warmly,
Your loving Rufolf

and

Quote
Dear Szogyeny,

I must die, it is the only way in which to leave this world at least like a gentleman.................... .........be so good as to open my writing desk in Vienna....................... ... to deal with the papers in it as laid down in my final wishes -- enclosed herewith.......................

Also to his sister Valerie: "I do not die willingly but........".  In each letter he repeated the same theme -- that he must die.  He did not reveal why except it had to do with saving his honor and good name.

I'm surprised no one has ever picked up on the impossibility of these letters in conjunction with how he was found dead.  Sure it's easy to say, well he had the insane Wittelsbach genes from his mother (and father), and of course if his 2nd cousin (King Ludwig II of Bavaria) was completely insane, then Rudolf must have been too since he was a friend of his, and he must have picked it up (by osmosis), and so nothing he would do could expect to have any reason.  Never mind that this ignores everything that Rudolf was up until the time he died.   Unfortunately there was more money to be made in writing books or making movies about high drama with sex, drugs and debauchery.  

From the above theme of Rudolf's suppose farewell letters, the only reasonable conclusion I can imagine is that Rudolf did not plan to have Mary Vetsera with him when he committed suicide or disappeared.  IOW, if something makes absolutely no sense, then it is probably not true.

A book written in 1916 by Rudolf's private secretary (Colonel Heinrich von Spindler) stated that Vetsera was never expected at Mayerling.  She showed up with a letter supposedly from Rudolf asking her to come to Mayerling.  Rudolf looked at the letter and said that although it looked like his handwriting, he never sent the letter to her, but that he was happy she was there anyway.    
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Silja on September 02, 2010, 03:01:12 PM
Even though I myself will keep up to the suicide, I mean those letters... He certainly must have had the plan to kill himself, and Mary wrote her letters too, we should not forget that.


Precisely. Besides, he had asked Mizzie Caspar to commit suicide with him earlier on.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 02, 2010, 04:19:40 PM
True... And there is his desperate act on christmas eve - if we can call it desperate - when he collapsed at his mother's feet.... A cry for help maybe? Might sound a bit melodramatic, but a person who is actually depressed does such a thing when things get really out of hand... And everybody deals with depression in his/her own way, so there is no definition as to why Rudolf acted in the way he did. As I heard one person put it: when Mizzie declined his offer she became the image of life for him, and Mary became the image of death... Also there are the words he wrote to his mother, about being burried near Mary "that dear angel who choose to accompany me in death", or something in that sense - since the letter got burned at the story was second-hand. I believe Countess Festetics was the one who told it? Not sure though, should check my books for that.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 02, 2010, 08:10:51 PM
I am not a big 'fan' of the Countess Larish, but I also do not think she lied about everything in the books she wrote……………………………… I strongly believe if Rudolph would have come to the throne, he would have made a good Kaiser.

I do agree that it’s definitely a mistake to discount everything Countess Larisch wrote.  Some things were of course self-serving and not that difficult to see, but other statements had a certain ring of truth with no clear motive. 
Rudolph would have been a good Kaiser no doubt.  If he had the chance before WWI, the landscape would have been changed as well since he wanted to break the alliance with Germany and join England/France instead.  This may have prevented WWI since Germany could not have risked any aggression if surrounded by enemies on all sides.

Incorrect -- Serbian Government did not agree on the all demands. The Ultimatum of the Austrian Government contained 10 main demands that Serbia had to accept in order war not to break out. The Government hardly accepted nine of them. However, the last demand, and the 10th, requested from Serbian Kingdom to allow to the Austro-Hungarian authorities/investigation body to investigate (all-over the Serbian territory) the cause of the murder that took place in Sarajevo on the hot summer day, June 28th 1914 at eleven o'clock in the morning, when Arch-Duke Franz Ferdinand and his wife Arch-Duchess Sophie were assassinated. Simply, Nikola Pashic, as a head of the Government couldn't have allowed that kind of humiliation to Serbia.
Surprisingly how did the old rule 'cause - consequence' worked out. I am sure that, hadn't Mayerling story occurred, most likely the WW1 would have been delayed for a little while. There are many of others factors that influenced on those events.
By the way, I have always somehow believed that his family knew the truth.


Great post Nena, and thank you for the correction.  It’s always welcome to get the truth from an expert.  Still, did you not think the Austrians were a little hot-headed in their response, especially since there was no love lost between FJ and FF? 

We can discuss it forever but we will never know the truth, and we all will stick to our own believes. As a close friend of mine said, maybe Rudolf was born too early.... Maybe the world was not ready for his beliefs, which I think too - especially at the Royal Courts - and was there no one who really accepted his views and would change anything about the way of things. This however is no reason to kill yourself......................

It’s too bad Sherlock Holmes never took a shot at this mystery – He could have cracked the case.  ;)
Seriously, I think there are a lot of clues not given due process – especially those that came from family members.  It’s true, it has been a long time ago, but then a massive amount has been written about the case, and some of it was by people expected to know the truth.  Unfortunately many smoke screens and false leads were put up to hide and mislead.  Maybe it was suicide, but then maybe not.  The only thing I’m certain of is the nature of the suicide letters did not match the suicide scene and I don’t believe Rudolf was so insane that he was beyond all reason.
However, the best argument I know for suicide is that Rudolf had little parental love as a small child.  Although both his parents probably did love him, for whatever reason, they didn’t demonstrate it while he was alive.  I'm not sure his wowwow or Latour or others offered enough support of the parental kind, in fact I doubt they felt they had the authority to do so. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: nena on September 02, 2010, 08:50:24 PM
Great post Nena, and thank you for the correction.  It’s always welcome to get the truth from an expert.  Still, did you not think the Austrians were a little hot-headed in their response, especially since there was no love lost between FJ and FF?  

You're very welcome. I don't see myself being an expert, but thank you, I feel flattered. Well, I have always made the difference between the provocation and the real cause of the WW1's breaking-out. However, provocation was that unhappy assassination in Sarajevo, but the real cause was Austro-Hungarian tendency to enlarge it's territory over the Danube barrier, on the South. In that time , French President Poincaré made an official visit to the Russian Empire. There were rumors that plans about the possible war had been previously made in the castle of Konopisht, where Kaiser Wilhelm and FF made something like an agreement (Radzinsky, 'Rasputin's File', not a verbatim). However, the Serbian Government got the Ultimatum as soon as President Poincaré left Russia, simply because 'Triple Alliance'  couldn't have allowed to France and Russia immediately stop the breaking of the war, and to stop their probable collaboration. Yes, they hoped it to be a 'Blitz Krieg'/'A short war'. They rushed, and I believe, they were hot-headed in their response. War lasted 4 long years.

Back on the topic.

I believe that Rudolf was a really smart young man, he was well-educated, he foresaw the tumult of the unhappy events that were to come. I remember that he said something like ' Dark times are to come...'. Ohh yes, he was correct. On the one side, I understand that he was somehow 'the misfit', with completely different views and ideas on the world, he was liberal and so on, on another side, I think that he could have done some efforts for his ideas to come true. I said 'the misfit' because he, it seems, lived in another, future time than his contemporaries at that time.

He terribly needed love and support, and the most important, understanding. Who knows what must have happened in his tired head and his heart in those terrible January days of 1889? I just think that he had an, how to say, escaping/hiding nature in himself. Too many dark things surrounding him. Maybe I am wrong, If I am , please correct me. (I am not the one who can judge about him). That great pressure on him from the Court, then cold welcome by some people and so on....But I am sure in one thing - he wasn't finished on the Earth. He had many things to do. He left his daughter fatherless.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 03, 2010, 01:10:02 AM
The only thing I'm certain of is the nature of the suicide letters did not match the suicide scene and I don't believe Rudolf was so insane that he was beyond all reason.
However, the best argument I know for suicide is that Rudolf had little parental love as a small child.  Although both his parents probably did love him, for whatever reason, they didn't demonstrate it while he was alive.  I'm not sure his wowwow or Latour or others offered enough support of the parental kind, in fact I doubt they felt they had the authority to do so. 


Well, I never believed that Rudolf was insane, far from it... Depressed, certainly, but not insane. And also, we seem to forget what Mary wrote to her former governess about her relationship with Rudolf - about the ring, which Countess Larisch also claimed to have seen, the suicide pact - even though that was probably taken as a teenage girl's fantasy -, she even wrote that she and Rudolf belonged together body in soul now, around the 13th of January I believe - I'm to check my books on this - and for me, that makes her suicide letters believable, the way of writing is exactly the same...

Also, some of Rudolf's suicide letters were written before he left for Mayerling.... So, why would he do that if he did not intend to kill himself...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Kalafrana on September 03, 2010, 05:41:30 AM
I think we need to be cautious in claiming that Rudolf would have been a good ruler had he not died in 1889. I am inclined to think he would never have reigned, since in 1889 he was already in poor health, and, as events turned out, his father was to survive and reign for another 27 years. His position was rather simiilar to that of Prince Charles, who may not survive his mother, or, if he does, will only reign for a short period.

Ann
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 03, 2010, 07:35:19 AM
I think we need to be cautious in claiming that Rudolf would have been a good ruler had he not died in 1889. I am inclined to think he would never have reigned, since in 1889 he was already in poor health, and, as events turned out, his father was to survive and reign for another 27 years. His position was rather simiilar to that of Prince Charles, who may not survive his mother, or, if he does, will only reign for a short period.

Ann

Sure, that's all true...

But if Rudolf would have had the chance to rule he would have made a fine Emperor... A great one I think, and partly Elisabeth is to be thanked for that - yes she had her faults as Empress, as wife, as a mother, but she only became who she was because she could not live with the burden of life at court.... And she was the one who eventually made sure Rudolf got his liberal education, more to her own beliefs rather than those of her husband or mother-in-law... That made Rudolf to the Prince he was, a Liberal one -, of course she too saw it as her own fault Rudolf was a broken man by the time of his death, sure she must have seen much of herself in him.... I think that is why she never let him in, because he was so much like her and she had too little to do in bringing her own son up, while he needed his mother so much...

Ahh well.... I tend to think the world was not ready for Rudolf. It is as Elisabeth herself said, born in the wrong era.... Can be often said, not only about Rudolf but several other August Figures of World History...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 03, 2010, 08:06:45 PM

Also, some of Rudolf's suicide letters were written before he left for Mayerling.... So, why would he do that if he did not intend to kill himself...

Excellent point Imperial_Grounds, and it's difficult to attribute them to someone other than Rudolf (or Szogyeny?).  According to Lavender Cassels in Clash of Generations, Rudolf left a suicide note to Szogyeny asking him to open his writing desk in Vienna ..............."in the Turkish room where in better times we often sat together".  The author claims this note and its accompanying instructions were discovered in the State Archives in 1958 and found to be authentic.

Now even if a foreign government forged the suicide notes of Rudolf, as claimed in the 1916 book by his private secretary, it's quite difficult to explain how these letters got into Rudolf's locked/private writing desk in Vienna.  One possibility is suggested by Rudolf's complaints in a letter to Szeps that it was getting so he could trust no one anymore, not even his oldest long-term servants.  Vienna was practically a police state then, overrun with spies, double agents and surveillance everywhere -- especially against Rudolf.

It is interesting that the instructions accompanying the letter found at Mayerling to Szogyeny, telling him to go to his desk in Vienna and give letters found there to Valerie, his wife, mother, Baron Hirsch and Mitzi Caspar are similar to the 2nd Will he wrote almost 2 years before in early 1887.  Notable differences are that the suicide instructions were undated and unsealed whereas the 2nd Will of Rudolf was dated and sealed.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 06, 2010, 12:22:13 PM
Well onto an examination of the next idea on the Mayerling Mystery.   Back in 1915, a book was written by a member of the secret service and privy counselor to the German Kaiser called The Secrets of the Hohenzollerns by a Dr. Armgaard Karl Graves.  Several years before he also wrote The Secrets of the German War Office.          
 http://tinyurl.com/2wmukme

Needless to say this fellow had become a rogue agent and was hounded for years by the authorities in the US, Germany and other countries and finally ended up in prison.  He did know an amazing amount of detail to have made it all up, and he was taken seriously enough to prosecute to the fullest extent.  

His book, The Secrets of the Hohenzollerns is the earliest published report of which I am aware of the champagne bottle in the brain story for the cause of Rudolf's death.  Parts of it were later corroborated by several different books approaching the mystery from a different point of view, including the books by Marie Larisch, the private secretary of Rudolf, the forgotten son R, and by Ferdinand IV of Tuscany, perhaps the closest thing to a real friend accepted by Emperor Franz Joseph.

So here is the 1915 explanation for the death starting on pg 218:

Quote

    "Erherzog Rudolph, the archduke, next in succession, was mysteriously killed at Mayerling, an obscure little hunting lodge in upper Austria. Much has been written and many conjectures made about the cirumstance of this lamentable tragedy. The real reason, so vast in its importance, has of necessity never been divulged.

    "On a blustery and cold January night in 1889 His Royal Highness and the Baroness Marie Vetzera (Vetchera) were familiarly seated around a plain but daintily spread supper table in the hunting lodge of Mayerling. They were attended by Max and Otto K----, two brothers much trusted in the archducal household. Supper was nearly finished and the Prince, who was very fond of a certain brand of champagne, had just given the order to Otto for another couple of bottles, when the deep baying of the Prince's favorite deerhound gave notice of the approach of strangers. A dull thud and agonized yelp of the dog made the Prince jump up and stride toward the door, which was guarded by Max. Pushing the servant aside, His Royal Highness pulled the door open. Three men muffled up to their eyes in great coats forced their way into the room. In a trice the leader of the trio pinioned Max to the wall. The Archduke, who had jumped back startled and was reseating himself behind the supper table, demanded the reason for this intrusion, when the smallest of the three, supposedly the brother of the Baroness Vetzer, laid hold of a bottle of champagne and brought the weapon down with terrific force on his unprotected head, completely crushing the skull. The Baroness, who apparently had recognized one of the three intruders, was hysterically screaming and uttering dire threats and vengeance against the perpetrators of this foul deed. As she stood there, gripping the edges of the table, the third, standing at the door, raised his Stutzen (a short hunting gun in great favor in the Austrian Alps), and fired point blank at the unfortunate woman, almost blowing her head to pieces.

    "The commotion brought Otto from the wine cellar, and, taking in the situation at a glance, he threw himself fiercely upon the intruders, ably assisted by his brother Max, who also began attacking his captor. They managed to dispose of one of the assailants when again the gun rang out, sending Max to the floor with his chest almost torn to ribbons. The next moment Otto received a Hirsch-fanger (a hunting dagger) between his shoulders. Dragging their wounded conspirator with them, the two assassins disappeared into the night. From that day to this there have never been any arrests made or any one held to account for this dastardly deed.

    "Otto, who was left for dead, on regaining sufficient strength decently covered the bodies with table cloths and napkins, and left a short pencil written account of the occurrences pinned on to his brother's clothes. He also disappeared in the night; for he well knew the consequences attached to an even entirely innocent witnessing of such a royal family tragedy. Old, gray and bent, Otto is living to this day the quiet life of a hermit and exile not five hundred miles from New York City. Money would never make Otto talk, but some day the upheaval in Europe may provide an occasion when this old retainer of the House of Habsburg may unseal his lips; and then woe to the guilty.

    "The above account of the tragedy of Mayerling, notwithstanding the 'proof' of the Crown Prince's supposed suicide contained in the letters alleged to have been written by him to his confidant and friend Ambassador Szoegyenyi and to the 'Duke of Braganza,' is the correct one, and will be proved when the venerable head of the House of Habsburg shall have passed away. The Author."

Armgaard Karl Graves also suggested that Prussia might be responsible for the deaths by the following:

Quote
"...Prussian diplomacy had gained such an ascendancy over the House of Habsburg and the affairs of Austria, that Austria has been and is a staunch ally and supported by Germany in all its aims and ambitions. This alliance is developed to such an extent that even an heir apparent to the Austrian empire unless acceptable to and identified with Prusso-Germanic interests finds it impossible to ascend the throne.............    "Rudolph of Habsburg had to the full the proud instinctive dislike to, and rooted disinclination against, the ever increasing Germanic influence in and over his country. He died.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: nena on September 06, 2010, 05:51:17 PM
Thank you Pezzaz! I even wondered, maybe they (at least Mary) swallowed poisoned drink or something. Since, allegedly, no traces of fighting were found on their bodies, when they were exhumed.

Russian site, translation is not so good :

'   No one suspected the possibility of tragedy, so only some time later they found the frozen corpses of lovers in the castle. Mary laid on a couch with her spread hair and with the rose in her folded hands, in sitting pose there was Rudolph, not so far away on the floor was a revolver, which fell from Prince's arisen hand . Near the other hand was a glass of cognac. Later examination showed that there was no poison in the brandy was not. Lovers died from a double shot from a revolver in each bullet went through one temple and exited through the second. These causes of death have not been clarified, but that it was a suicide, there was little doubt. Probably the first Rudolf murdered his beloved and only then put the revolver to his temple. '
--------------------
I am not sure if the site/source is authentic.

Who did find them? Who did attend the Mayerling castle on that night? At what time were they found? Strange, I have read that no bullet hole was found. I am guessing that somebody lies.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 06, 2010, 06:45:31 PM

Who did find them? Who did attend the Mayerling castle on that night? At what time were they found? Strange, I have read that no bullet hole was found. I am guessing that somebody lies.

...........and thank you Nena!  I've often thought the secret to finding the truth is knowing enough to know who lied -- or as they prefer to call it:  who had "memory lapses" ;)

One thing that seems strange to me is there is seldom any mention of any security around Rudolf.  Sure, he was always under surveillance, but that was more to protect others from him, not to protect Rudolf!  Why was there not even one security guard at Mayerling?  Was that considered normal then for royal heirs?  Didn't Sisi travel without any security most of the time too?  FF was killed in Sarejvo for lack of security too some claim.   Were the Austrians slow to learn their lessons or what?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 07, 2010, 11:16:00 AM
Well... As for Elisabeth, she refused security and often fled the agents asigned to her in the earlier days as Empress.

There is a theory that Mary might have been pregnant and that she and Rudolf went to Mayerling to abort the pregnancy.... There is a dutch book on that subject and it is quite strong in its claim, it uses Countess Larisch's writing, several others... But the book makes a good point. It said that Mary died during the abortion and that Rudolf killed himself to save his honor. However, this is something that will remain unsolved... I don't believe it. As long as we don't know the truth In stick to the official claim of suicide.

And there were gunholes found, atleast 1 - but I have read several sources claiming there to be just 1 gunshot and another to claim that there were several -, also Mary's remains were exhumed in the 90's and there were traces of a gunshot if I remember correctly. There is no saying that it weren't Mary's remains since the dress was partly preserved - the same one she wore in the famous last picture with the Countess Larisch -, her shoos too and some hair. I have a picture somewhere, will have to look for it and post it here.

Only... I'm amazed that the Habsburg Family still does not allow Rudolf's remains to be properly exhumed... It is as if they want to hide something. And why was the Empress refused to see his hands?(I heard this only once, not sure if it's true)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 07, 2010, 05:40:24 PM

And there were gun holes found, atleast 1 - but I have read several sources claiming there to be just 1 gunshot and another to claim that there were several -, also Mary's remains were exhumed in the 90's and there were traces of a gunshot if I remember correctly.


From what I remember about the later autopsy on Mary Vetsera was that they found no bullet hole in her head, but rather it looked like she had been beaten and the top of her head showed signs of the beating, eh?  

Here's an excerpt from "Francis Joseph And His Court: From The Memoirs Of Count Roger De Resseguier" (1917) that also supports the champagne bottle in the brain story.  Count Roger De Resseguier was the son of FJ Court Chamberlain.  This book was written a couple years after the one by the rogue German agent mentioned above, but the details differ considerably.

"..................it was now that her brother or cousin, Baron Baldazzi, appeared on the scene and was betrothed to the wayward girl.  But he was not the man one might have thought.  He soon proved to be rather the guardian to the family's honour than the convenient bridegroom.  He installed the reign of terror...................................

Night was closing in.  The usual orgy took place at Meyerling that evening to the accompaniment of much champagne while snow reigned over the whole world without.......................from a solitary pine tree which stood like a sentinel at the side of the road, death came to them.

For at a very late hour, Baron Baldazzi, stood beside it.  There is a ditch between the road and the castle so that the trunk of the pine tree is on a level with the first floor.  Baldazzi looked through the window and beheld a revolting scene in the flickering light.  In the background, on a bed in the alcove, the Archduke Rudolph and Mary Vecsara slept in each other's arms.  On a divan, on the floor, even under the table, lay Philip of Coburg, Count Hoyos and the 2 Apanjagers, all dead drunk.  Empty bottles of champagne were scattered about all over the place.  The candles were expiring in their sockets.

Then Baldazzi fired without the least hurry or excitement.  He fired at his betrothed and at the heir to the Austrian throne.  He was a crack shot and he struck both through the heart.  

Then he was seized with mad fury.  He threw away his gun which was later found by servants of the Abbey, swung himself up to the low window whose panes had been broken, entered the room, seized an empty bottle and battered the heads of the two dead lovers.  Bits of glass were later found right inside their brains.

Very early the same morning, Count Hoyos and Philip of Coburg, hurried off to Vienna to announce the death of the Archduke................naturally the police stopped its feverish secret inquiries as soon as they found it was leading where they didn't want to go...................
"

The where had to do with how Franz Joseph had an affair with both Mary Vetsera's mother and sister:  The Baldazzi sisters from Greece, and he treated them so badly, that one killed herself in the Danube, and the other gave birth to Mary, FJ's child, and was quickly married off to some newly created baron.  It was this tangled past that fed the rage of the Baron Baldazzi as avenger.  

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 07, 2010, 07:31:39 PM

From what I remember about the later autopsy on Mary Vetsera was that they found no bullet hole in her head, but rather it looked like she had been beaten and the top of her head showed signs of the beating, eh?  

The where had to do with how Franz Joseph had an affair with both Mary Vetsera's mother and sister:  The Baldazzi sisters from Greece, and he treated them so badly, that one killed herself in the Danube, and the other gave birth to Mary, FJ's child, and was quickly married off to some newly created baron.  It was this tangled past that fed the rage of the Baron Baldazzi as avenger.  

Yes, I remember that too... I believe "Crime at Mayerling" states both... Not sure, it's been forever since I read it. Shall take up a reread of the book soon and give what I find in it then. And yes, the famous rumour that Franz had an affaire with Helene.... There is no way in knowing this is true. And we must not forget that Helene herself tried to catch the eye of the young Crown Prince while being in England, much to the displease of the Empress. Can Helene really be this 'cold'? We don't know much about her, but can she have been both the mistress of father and son, and has she coached her daughter in her game to win Rudolf's heart.... I'm not sure Helene was known with the fact that Rudolf saw Mary at the start... Mary herself wrote that her mother and sister must never know of the affair, and she even wrote about a certain pact she and Rudolf made.... I haven't the quotes right at hand but I made a video using those, even though romanticized - See it as Mary's pov -, and still.... They must have had the intention of killing themselves, those letters. To me that is all the proof  needed that they at least had the intention of committing suicide, and it all comes to terms with what Mary wrote before and what Rudolf wrote to his mother - if we may believe that story as Corti got it secondhand -, he wrote about this angel who accompanied him in death and his wish to be put to rest with her... However, as we all keep saying: the truth might never come out. That is what we love about this dramatic episode in the history of the Hapsburg's, the mystery.

And here is the video I mentioned(Quotes in German):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX876ISHipE

The audio is from the musical "Rudolf - Affaire Mayerling", the video from several movies based upon the Mayerling Drama.
It might be a bit too romantic, but I had to work with it:p As my friend took the beutiful part about Mayerling itself...
Ahh well, now it's not the history-buff speaking but the movie/musical-fan:p
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 07, 2010, 11:29:53 PM

And here is the video I mentioned(Quotes in German):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX876ISHipE

The audio is from the musical "Rudolf - Affaire Mayerling", the video from several movies based upon the Mayerling Drama.
It might be a bit too romantic, but I had to work with it:p As my friend took the beutiful part about Mayerling itself...
Ahh well, now it's not the history-buff speaking but the movie/musical-fan:p


That is beautiful Imperial_Grounds, Thank You!  It is a mystery that does have the irresistible pull of the romance in a love to die for.  

Here is another youtube video set to one of my favorite songs:  "Who wants to live forever".  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p4-jnUCaMA&feature=related
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: nena on September 08, 2010, 10:35:57 AM
This discussion seems interesting to me. Thank you for your opinions, quotes, etc.

Well, I have a question - about the shots from the gun/revolver that were, again, allegedly (?), heard by two gentlemen at the hunting lodge.

Well, how many shots there were heard? Two, from what I have understood. Let's speculate a bit:
 
- If there were heard two shots (in short time interval, one after another), there is possibility that Rudolf firstly killed his Mary, and afterwards himself. This my thesis doesn't argue with the fact that Mary had been already dead, several hours before Prince dead.

- Logically, at least one of the shots was meant to killed the Prince.  So, who died the first - Mary or Rudolf? I 'believe' Mary. Why would he have fired 2 hits from revolver? Perhaps to confuse the others? One hit was enough to kill him, since he 'put the revolver on his temple' and shot. (Remember the white bandage around Prince's head on the photo taken in his deathbed!). Does this make sense?  Well, most likely that Rudolf , Mary and their company entertained each other's in orgies the night drama occurred. The star - crossed lovers met in November of 1888, one site states. Is there possibility for Mary to remain pregnant in that relatively short time -interval of barely three months? Of course, they both may have doubted, I believe it is one of 'hear-say' stories. Yes, I believe that Rudolf may have intended to kill himself, letters are enough proofs.

Well, one's for sure -- too many endless theories with a little trace of the real truth.

(http://www.exulanten.com/images/mayerlingpicone.JPG)
From : http://www.exulanten.com/mayerling.html I think some facts here in the site are incorrect.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 08, 2010, 12:53:30 PM
I do not believe in the theory about Mary being pregnant... The relationship was, as widely believed, consummated on January 13th 1889... Mary gave Rudolf a box for his cigarettes in-scripted with "Now we belong to each other"(freely translated), and it is at this moment it is believed Rudolf gave her the ring. The letter in which Mary writes about the fact is dated on January 14th, so they had the intention to kill themselves - he possibly because desperation and illness - he had a sexual illness, which is often overlooked, and this weakened him... Along with his usage of drugs, and she out of love for him - and as it turned out they both did die.

How this happened is a mystery.... Rudolf killed himself, I am sure of that and Mary died several hours before - approximate 6 hours, the autopsy stated that...  But what if the Court doctors changed the hour of death on purpose... Maybe to get people confused, as the Emperor didn't want this scandal to get out -, but Loschek stated that there were 2 shots fired in a short timelaps.... However it is widely believed that he lied, or he simply misheard(maybe he took the 'echo' of the gunshot as a second one?, if there is an echo anyway).... I am sure, we won't ever get the truth unless Taaffe's papers are found and the Vatican releases a possible annulment-request of Rudolf.

However I do not believe the last assumption, Rudolf trying to divorce - He knew Mary not long enough for that - and why would Franz Joseph go meddling in Rudolf's love affairs while he had several mistresses himself... La Schratt being the constant one, with the Empress' approval, and several others - there is a story that he broke of with a mistress in January 1889 because of her similarity in looks towards Mary -, so why would he not allow Rudolf to have a mistress....
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 09, 2010, 03:04:57 PM
This discussion seems interesting to me. Thank you for your opinions, quotes, etc.

Thanks you all too, and it is a fascinating topic -- almost like a giant puzzle.[/size]

Quote from: Nena
Well, I have a question - about the shots from the gun/revolver that were, again, allegedly (?), heard by two gentlemen at the hunting lodge.

Well, how many shots there were heard? Two, from what I have understood. Let's speculate a bit:
 
- If there were heard two shots (in short time interval, one after another), there is possibility that Rudolf firstly killed his Mary, and afterwards himself. This my thesis doesn't argue with the fact that Mary had been already dead, several hours before Prince dead.

I believe it was Loschek the valet who said he heard 2 rapid shots?  He gave a statement sometime before he died in the 1930s of which I still have to read, but one of the things he was reported to have said in that statement was about the levity and good cheer displayed by Taaffe, Bombelles, Weiderhofer and a couple others at the meeting 2 days after Rudolf's death when they signed off on the investigation which forever disappeared after that.   Also wasn't Loschek forced to move to America soon after Rudolf's death?  Could Loschek have felt threatened?

It's hard for me to believe whatever Loschek claims without reservation due to the little problem of his "having to break the first floor door down with an ax" when he could easily have gone through the window.

Another problem with the number of shots fired comes from the Papal Nuncio, Monsignor Luigi Galimberti who stated that 6 shots had been fired, the gun next to Rudolf did not belong to him, and most important, the entry wound was behind the left ear, given rise to the large exit wound on the right top side of the head.  Given that Rudolf was right-handed, this would have been a most difficult maneuver. 

 The Papal Nuncio's sources as a representative of the Vatican were considered as good or better than those of anyone in that time in Austria.  However, more on Monsignor Galimberti later.  That's when the tale really starts to twist and turn.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 09, 2010, 03:20:58 PM

.......................and why would Franz Joseph go meddling in Rudolf's love affairs while he had several mistresses himself... La Schratt being the constant one, with the Empress' approval, and several others...................................

This is an astute observation, and one that is mostly forgotten.  By many reports, Rudolf had many girlfriends and his father never seemed to mind, until Mary Vetsera.  What was different about Vetsera?   Could she have been a half-sister of Rudolf, or was there something more?  Something perhaps political?  There's more to the story about Mary than her merely being obsessed with Rudolf so therefore he couldn't get rid of her since she had a way of being a little devil as stated by Rudolf according to both Marie Larisch and Rudolf's private secretary.   Mary, Mary, quite contrary, what is your story?   There is no question in my mind that Rudolf had plenty of experience in distancing himself from people with whom he no longer wanted to spend time.    There is an intriguing theory about her too that I never heard about before recently, but more on that later too since I need to find it again.   That's the trouble with reading old books is they didn't do indexes back then so sometimes if can take a long time to track down a source.

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 09, 2010, 04:59:46 PM
Mary being Rudolf's half-sister.... No way... I can't believe that.

Just to mention in researching one of my books about Mayerling(for some things on Mary and Helene) I found this little fact, which I had forgotten: There was found a tray(? for cigarettes) in the Hofburg on which Mary wrote "I prefer a gun, no poison"... This all works together with the suicide-pact.

However, nothing to find about Helene's way of life around Mary's birth. She died in 1909 of starvation, Hanna Vetsera(Mary's sister) died in 1902... And yes, there are claims that there is no proof on Mary's skull.... If we only could get to the reports or see the skull ourselves...

Mary's grave was opened in 1945 by the Soviets, in search of jewels and such.... Maybe her body was replaced? Far-fetched I know, but anything is possible. And Mary has been reburied several times. Her original coffin is in the monastery now.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 15, 2010, 01:57:20 PM

...............There was found a tray(? for cigarettes) in the Hofburg on which Mary wrote "I prefer a gun, no poison".......
 

I can't help but wonder if Mary ran out of paper ;)  I read that it was with violet colored ink that Vetsera wrote on the inside of the ashtray.  
 
On the note of violets, I've been looking for the earliest books published on Mayerling to try and get a better idea of what theories changed when and by whom.  The earliest one I've read in part thusfar was published in 1899 called The Martyrdom of an Empress  by Marguerite Cunliffe-Owen.  The author states that Mary was clutching 2 bunches of violets when Bratfisch picked her up outside the Vienna florist on her fateful journey to Mayerling.  

Before I continue with the author's very reasonable early theory of what happened at Mayerling, there was something strange that caught my eye.  This author stated that Crown Princess Stephanie refused to accompany her husband on his trip to England to celebrate Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee because Stephanie could not face the humiliation of having her husband run after a girl who should still be in school, namely Mary Vetsera and furthermore Stephanie had heard that Rudolf was meeting the Vetsera girl even in Vienna before the planned trip to London.

Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee was held in June 1887, almost 1.5 years before Rudolf and Vetsera were suppose to have started their relationship!!

So I did a little checking to see where this information might be supported other than this book written in 1899 -- and it was verified in a book written about 5 or 6  years later by Joachim von Kürenberg in his coversations with Katherine Schratt where she stated that Crown Princess Stephanie had told her of her stress and worry about Rudolf and Vetsera's relationship in mid 1887.  

This little discrepancy of at least 1.5 years lopped of the relationship of Rudolf and Mary is amazing.  Then the elaborate explanations to ensure that it was known their relationship was not consummated before only a little over 2 weeks before their deaths?  Was that suppose to rule out speculation on some pregnancy?  What was the point?  Why was it so important to shorten the known relationship?  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: heavensent on September 18, 2010, 12:57:37 PM
 Looking at pics of Mary Vetsera.... she had  amazing chestnut coloured hair... very long... down to her waist.... so like Sissi ! 
(Maybe that is what so attracted Rudolf ? )
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 18, 2010, 03:01:39 PM
One good proven source deserves some more attention to the book published in 1899 called The Martyrdom of an Empress  by Marguerite Cunliffe-Owen.  Countess Cunliffe-Owens was a New York gossip columnist and novelist where she moved with her husband from France.  Frederick Cunliffe-Owen wrote newspaper editorials and society columns concerning, for the most part, European affairs and the social life of the nobility, becoming an editor of the New York Herald Tribune in 1889.

The Martyrdom of an Empress was first published anonymously and was thought to be ghost-written for a close lady-in-waiting to the Empress Sissi from the time of her marriage to her death.  However true the entire book may or may not be, it is one of the first books written about the Mayerling deaths and so is widely quoted/plagiarized and its theme no doubt is the source for the romance and drama in the movies about the events at Mayerling.

Unfortunately, the book is rather extreme in its biases, i.e., Rudolph and his parents couldn't be more wonderful while the Crown Princess Stephanie and Marie Larisch could not have been more evil, but those extremes rarely represent the truth.

Excerpt:  
Quote
...............that justice has never been done to the motives which led this plucky, courageous, honorable, and also sincerely religious young man to give himself to death. It was rumored at the time, and it also has been declared since, that before committing an act so severely condemned by the Catholic Church he had actually killed with his own hand the woman whom he loved better than life. This is thoroughly and shamefully untrue. Marie Yetsera died during the night of the 29th to the 30th of January, 1889, and she did die in the arms of the Crown-prince, but it was not he, as everybody persists in believing, who killed her. It has been authentically proved that it was she herself who cut short her fair and beautiful existence while Rudi had absented himself for a moment from the salon where they had been talking together.

My objections to the above is that I'm fairly certain Rudolph was not sincerely religious although his parents might have assumed such.  I also doubt that he loved Marie Vetsera better than life, or maybe that's some of my own bias?  It's as his ADC stated in 1914 -- she was not his usual type of girlfriend and he had a hard time to understand the attraction.  

However it is reasonable to believe, given the supposed nature of Mary Vetsera and her youth that she might have killed herself when Rudolf told her for whatever reason that they had to stop seeing each other.

Quote
The awful disclosure which the young man made to her was truly of a nature to unbalance the steadiest brain, and Loschek, the valet, said later on that he had heard, when passing the door, on different occasions, the muffled sound of violent sobbing...............................The crumpled letter which Marie had written to her mother was not the only one of the sort found, for when her dress was removed another sheet of paper, evidently torn out of a book, was discovered secreted in the corsage. It was intended for her sister, and I give here a copy of it:
" He has told me all. I cannot tell you what he did tell me. I can never be his now. I am alone for a moment, while he has gone down to send away Bratflsch. I knew that something dreadful would happen to prevent our being happy, so I brought the poison with me, and I am going to drink it. When he returns it will be too late to save me, and I will die in his arms, happy to be with him till the last............

I can't help but notice that all the letters of eternal love come from Vetsera and none from Rudolph?  

Contrary to the later idea, perhaps started by Marie Larisch, that Vetsera was found nude and wounded (eye out of socket), this author states that:

Quote
......................On the lounge near the window lay the body of Marie Vetsera, still dressed in her dark serge gown, but with all the violets of her two bouquets scattered about her....................Her white face, outlined against the silk of the cushion upon which her head was resting, seemed cut out of marble.

And Vetsera's death
Quote
....................has been more than disproved by the autopsy performed upon Marie, which revealed the fact that she had died from strychnine poisoning, and that her death had preceded that of the Crown-prince by more than two hours.

And this was followed by:  
Quote
Could anything have been more dreadful than the despair of the unfortunate young man when, after having disclosed to his beloved the true reason which made it impossible for him to fulfil his promise of marrying her as soon as he had succeeded in obtaining the dissolution of his union, he found that she had swallowed the deadly drug which she had brought with her ? When, a few minutes later, she breathed her last in his arms, no wonder indeed that, seeing his honor jeopardized, his hopes dashed to the earth, and his entire existence ruined, he should have decided to end his own career without any further delay!

Also in contradiction to the claims of Marie Larisch and usually accepted today, Vetsera's body was not removed from Mayerling under the macrabre circumstances of being supported by some broomstick but instead:  
Quote
By the care of Count Bombelles, the Crown-prince's tutor and best friend, who had been sent immediately by the Emperor to take charge of everything at Mayerling, the fair body of Marie Vetsera was concealed in a room which Count Bombelles himself locked with his own hands.

On the night of the 31st of January a small posterndoor in the northern wing of the castle was stealthily opened, and another black, unadorned coffin was carried by four trustworthy attendants into the depths of the woods, where another fourgon awaited it. It was conveyed as secretly as possible to the chapel of Heiligenkreutz, and from there, twenty-four hours later, to a distant railway station, where it was embarked for Trieste, and taken thence to Venice.

Alas, this glorious and sweet drama was not to stick -- but how and why did it get derailed?  Part of the answer might be right in this book itself.  Despite its absolute support of the crown prince, it also revealed something about him that totally shocked me.   Maybe I over react, and maybe that was considered normal back then, but I found this behavior of Rudolph no less than chilling............................to be continued ;)








Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: heavensent on September 18, 2010, 06:19:02 PM
Rudolf was certainly a handsome young prince  in his early years.... but thats no surprise as his mother was one of the most beatiful women in Europe


(http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/5749/18september20102.jpg) (http://img836.imageshack.us/i/18september20102.jpg/)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: heavensent on September 18, 2010, 06:26:53 PM
That amazing   hair.... so reminds me of Sissy... was Rudolf secretly finding a substitute for his mother in
Mary Vetsera ?  ( scroll up for a pic of the handsome Rudolf )
go here
http://celebheaven.freepowerboards.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=513&p=1050#p1050
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 18, 2010, 07:37:05 PM
Thank you so much for the photo Heavensent.  I don't think I've seen that particular one -- though others similar to it -- but this one is more clear.   Yes, he certainly was a handsome fellow -- also with charm and intelligence.................his mind sparkled and his tongue flashed and he could be irresistible when he wanted.  Unfortunately, it seemed he also had some enemies.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 18, 2010, 08:58:26 PM
Miniature of young Rudolph

(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2408/sdfsdfsdfm.jpg) (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/sdfsdfsdfm.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 18, 2010, 09:45:57 PM
(http://nd02.jxs.cz/769/530/0b56a716fc_53174760_o2.jpg)
A baleful looking Mary?

(http://nd01.jxs.cz/973/781/105835f512_48172067_o2.jpg)

(http://nd01.jxs.cz/509/077/a2295cac5c_42083743_o2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 18, 2010, 10:11:46 PM
Mary Vetsera reminds me sometimes Archduke Franz Ferdinand. The same  big and clear eyes.

BTW, here a Flickr friend of mine uploaded a picture  of Mitzi Kaspar looking awesome

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2646/4121807588_7c9032883f_z.jpg)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23912178@N08/4121807588/in/set-72157605495077854/
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 18, 2010, 11:16:22 PM
That's great to see another photo of Mitzi Kaspar.   Thanks Katenka_Fyodorovna!   Now there's two of her that I've seen.  She looks a little like Stephanie maybe? 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 19, 2010, 09:16:40 AM
Wel...i hnestly think that Stephanie, at least  her face, was prettier than Mitzi`s
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 19, 2010, 09:31:34 AM
You're probably right - Stephanie was prettier than Mitzi.   All 3 of Rudolf's known women though were no great beauties -- they looked more like the average girl next door.  Maybe that's why Rudolf liked them?  Or maybe it's all due mostly to the difference between royal court photographers and the usual photographers? 

I must say though I really like the way Mitzi is dressed in that last photo of her here.   It looks simple and fresh compared to the usual dark, heavy and overly elaborate court dress of the time.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 19, 2010, 10:03:06 AM
Well i dont thinik it was a photographer`ms matters. It was just that the concept of beauty was different back then and men liked other things in women, beside how pretty they face were (AKA curves in their bodies, their performance in bed, etc, talking about mistresses)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 19, 2010, 02:19:02 PM
Thank you so much for the photo Heavensent.  I don't think I've seen that particular one -- though others similar to it -- but this one is more clear.   Yes, he certainly was a handsome fellow -- also with charm and intelligence.................his mind sparkled and his tongue flashed and he could be irresistible when he wanted.  Unfortunately, it seemed he also had some enemies.

Certainly, he did not only inherit his handsome features from his mother, or his free and liberal spirit, but also the tendency to show his preferences too clearly. For a Monarch or a Member of a Ruling Family this could be dangerous... See how Elisabeth was loathed for her liking of the Hungarians, and Rudolf later on too... One thing Rudolf, his mother and wife had in common, this love for Hungary. But then again, Rudolf and Elisabeth were in favor of the English form, a constitution, Stephanie probably knew how that worked as she grew up in a constitutional country, but her love of pomp and splendor might have turned her to like the absolute monarchy...

Also, in 1889 rumours spread about Rudolf and Mary's death... In a book I have about Rudolf, "Rudolf - Der Weg Nach Mayerling", there is an edited picture of Rudolf and Mary together in a carriage, claimed to be done as early as 1889.... Once I get the chance I'll scan that one and post it here.

I keep thinking they should do a movie about her for once, it would give a different take on the events... We've seen them through the eyes of Rudolf, Mary and Elisabeth and it would be nice to see how Stephanie took it all...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: heavensent on September 20, 2010, 12:37:48 PM
did I read somewhere that  Rudolf had a mother fixation ?
Mary Vetsera and her long, auburn hair would back up that theory
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 20, 2010, 12:58:50 PM
It could be. I read somewhere he was extremely jealous of his little sister Marie Valerie cause Elisabeth spend more time with her than him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 20, 2010, 09:14:14 PM


I love all the Mayerling movies too, but sometimes it's a little bothersome when the actors are so different than what's expected.   For example, Ava Gardner is great but there's nothing delicate or fragile about her like Sissi.  

Rudolf was one cool customer -- and none of the actors seem able to portray that.  Edward VII had that same look as Rudolf -- almost an absent or vacant look, as if as princes they had to endure too much -- too many appearances, too much studying at too young an age?  

Then Omar Sharif and Catherine Deneuve are 2 of my favorite actors, but neither one of them came close to anything like what I see as the real Rudolf or Vetsera.   The lesson here must be that the less known about the characters, the better the movie?  ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 21, 2010, 09:46:20 AM
Well, there is one movie "A tronokros" or something.... It is Hungarian and the actors really resemble their characters, from Rudolf to Mizzi, all of them share some traits with the real person - especially Rudolf and Mary, I was dazzled ad the sight of it, and take the story told with only the things that we know instead of a tragic romance as main theme makes it better. From Rudolf's youth up to Mary's burial... It's all there.

Well, it is good that now they tend to look for actors who resemble the real people.... They don't always do that, but still... Max Von Thun reminded me of Rudolf in some way, though Vittoria Puccini and the actress who portray Stephanie are nothing like them... And why is Stephanie so often portrayed with dark hair, curious...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 21, 2010, 10:45:56 AM
I think Ava Gardner portrayed the fading beauty with much accuracy. Like Sisi, Ava was a celeberty and felt the intrustiveness of other looking. Her lines appreciating others of their compliements on her looks has a ring of truth to it. Also the real Sisi could be tough too, she once threatened her son when she felt his appathy towards Valerie. Not exactly a helpless fragile creature.  ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 21, 2010, 11:21:02 AM
Certainly not... Elisabeth had her faults too, so had her son for that matter, as we all do. Elisabeth for one was not a great mother - though she was not to blame for this -, she lived past her family and after Rudolf's death regretted that she never saw how much he needed her... And Rudolf clearly adored his mother, I think he even cried out for help his last christmas when he collapesed in her arms. And since she were so alike, Elisabeth could have noticed how her son was suffering if she was in his life.... She knew however, when he was young, that he was fragile and like her was not fit for the role they had to play(as it existed at the time, as they both were liberal and wanted a proper constitution)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 21, 2010, 12:31:37 PM
Which is why Sisi blamed herself for Rudolf's suffering, she should have known being so sensative herself too. But she was blocking it out at the time.  :(
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 21, 2010, 02:36:24 PM
True... The musical 'Elisabeth' shows this in a good way.... When Elisabeth sings at Rudolf's cofin. I can't help but being touched every time. Rudolf is totally different in character when it comes to 'Elisabeth' and 'Rudolf' too, in 'Elisabeth' we see his fascination with death - as we see Elisabeth's too -, his hunger for change and how he blamed his father for making him and his mother so unhappy, when Franz Jozef finds out about his political pasttimes and the calling for Rudolf as Hungarian Monarch he reprimands his son, who goes to his mother for support... But she clearly wishes to be seperate from the court and emperor, she then sounds pityful over the fact that she won't even help Rudolf and that is where rudolf cracks and goes to Mayerling. Then Elisabeth is broken by his death and is even more restless until she dies herself. In 'Rudolf' he makes a pact with The Prince of Wales, among others, to change Europe forever and to grand constitution to Austria and Hungary... Rudolf and Mary fall hoplessly in love - Mary also has a liberal mind-set here - and while their plans crumble down around them Countess Larisch tries to tell both Rudolf and Mary that they can't change the world. Taaffe plots against the couple(he probably did in reality too, for God knows what reason), Rudolf wants a divorce but his father won't hear a thing about it and then he decides to be King in his own right(Hungary), so he can marry Mary, here come the plans of a Constitution again, which Rudolf signs, and then he's betrayed and he bids Mary goodbye - in a heartbreaking letter -, when she's at the station and prepares to leave she finds herself unable to do it and then there is Rudolf who wanted to see her one more time. They decide to go to Mayerling and eventually take their lives...

Certainly not correct to history, but almost no historical movie/musical/play/opera is, and it makes a great tale.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 21, 2010, 04:45:26 PM
Certainly not... Elisabeth had her faults too, so had her son for that matter, as we all do. Elisabeth for one was not a great mother - though she was not to blame for this...........................

Which is why Sisi blamed herself for Rudolf's suffering, she should have known being so sensitive herself too. But she was blocking it out at the time.  :(

From what I read in "The Martrydom of an Empress" Elizabeth could have been a good mother to all but Gisele with whom she seemed to fail to bond.  She was forced out of Rudolf's life when he was still a tiny baby.  They were able to convince her she'd be a bad mother to the future emperor, and prevented her from nursing him or visiting him often or when she wanted.  That loss of contact with a child so young can do a lot of damage to a parent, and alone can explain her need to escape and constantly be on the move.  When she was finally invited back into young Rudolf's life, it was too late to reestablish the bond as first formed -- although they did manage to eventually develop some kind of relationship.   It was insensitive at best on the part of Francis Joseph, and cruel and insensitive on the part of Archduchess Sophie to force Sisi apart from baby Rudolf.


Certainly, he did not only inherit his handsome features from his mother, or his free and liberal spirit, but also the tendency to show his preferences too clearly. For a Monarch or a Member of a Ruling Family this could be dangerous... See how Elisabeth was loathed for her liking of the Hungarians, and Rudolf later on too... One thing Rudolf, his mother and wife had in common, this love for Hungary.

Clearly there wasn't an easy two-way street between Hungary and Austria.  In hind sight it might not have been for the best that one of Rudolf's teachers with whom he developed a strong life-time bond starting when he was around age 12 taught him his truth of Hungarian History and this was J.J. Ronay.  It is believed he eventually told Rudolf "about his father's extreme cruelty to the Hungarian insurgents.  Between 1848 and 1853, Francis Joseph signed and confirmed more death warrants than any other European ruler during the whole of the 19th century".  (Judith Listowel in A Hapsburg Tragedy)  He also told him about the unexpected execution of one of Hungary's heros by orders of Archduchess Sophie since by legend, he rejected her amorous advances.  Sophie then insisted the execution be done by garotte since that was considered an insult to the Hungarian Aristocracy, and not by firing squad.  I won't go into further details since it gets worse, but there was reason for the loathing to work both ways between Hungary and Austria.

However, what's important in this thread is the diary of JJ Ronay which showed this kind of historical information clearly upset the young and sensitive Rudolph.  How could this kind of knowledge have affected Rudolf at such a young age when the only, or at least strongest, moral authorities in his life at that time were Francis Joseph and the Archduchess Sophie?   Considering this, one starts to understand why Rudolf might have made bloody drawings of an alien-type foreign-looking chieftain with a sword holding up a decapitated head.  Was this his way of trying to distance himself from the brutal insensitivity he'd learned was in the nature of his beloved father and grandmother?  


  

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 22, 2010, 10:00:19 AM
An stunning portrait of Rudolph

(http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3682/rudolf.jpg) (http://img185.imageshack.us/i/rudolf.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 22, 2010, 01:28:24 PM
That is a stunning portrait Katenka_Fyodorovna.  :) Thank you many times!!!   He looks very different there?   Could you tell me if it's a photo or a fine painting from a photo?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on September 22, 2010, 04:12:17 PM
An stunning portrait of Rudolph



He reminds me of his uncle Maximilian of Mexico on this portrait.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 23, 2010, 10:44:55 AM
A bit. The part that he resembled his father.  :)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 23, 2010, 01:04:51 PM
He certainly was a charming fellow... With such a stunningly beautiful mother and a father with those good liks it is not amazing.... I mean, Franz Jozef certainly was handsome himself in his younger days... Even when he got older he kept some charm, no matter how much you dislike his way of life or the way he was as a Monarch, that can't be denied. It's only a a pity he could not understand his son.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 23, 2010, 03:06:55 PM
It's nice to see Rudolf had something named after him.  The Rudolfinum was even the seat of the Czech parliament between 1918 and 1939 which I suppose is fitting since Rudolf spent some of his best years in Prague.

http://www.aviewoncities.com/prague/rudolfinum.htm
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: heavensent on September 23, 2010, 05:16:02 PM
IVE  not really read up on Rudolf... I guess I should try and find a biog somewhere...
but I wonder what was eating him up ?  he  was a handsome guy whose mother was perhaps the
most beautiful woman in Europe.... he must have had women swooning over him wherever he went
.... he seemed to have everything  !
Is there any in depth biog on the net somewhere or maybe an e book ?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 23, 2010, 06:53:44 PM
Heavensent -- try The Mayerling Murder by Victor Wolfson.  It's very affordable and easily available on Amazon and other sites.   It gives a good review plus another point of view not covered elsewhere.   Also one of the named contributors to this book was a grandson himself of Crown Prince Rudolf!

There's also some good bio on this very thread -- I mean several books are reviewed but most of them stick with the official finding, which isn't necessarily bad but perhaps a little short on what could have really happened.  

(Rudolf).......certainly was a charming fellow... With such a stunningly beautiful mother and a father with those good looks it is not amazing.... I mean, Franz Jozef certainly was handsome himself in his younger days... Even when he got older he kept some charm, no matter how much you dislike his way of life or the way he was as a Monarch, that can't be denied. It's only a a pity he could not understand his son.

Maybe the greater pity is that Francis Joseph understood his son only too well.  I'll remain a fan of Rudolf because he did have a very fine side, but I'm also starting to see the tell-tale signs of something very dark, and it's not quite so simple as depression/physical decline/dissipation/suicidal ideation etc.  

Back to one of the earliest books written about Mayerling, The Martyrdom of an Empress (1899), and totally supportive to Rudolf and his parents was the following little bit of information about the interior design of Mayerling:

Quote
His apartments resembled more a museum, or the rooms of a professor of natural history, than those of a high and mighty prince. One of the salons was arranged so as to represent a forest, with grottos of rock, trees and shrubs planted in enormous boxes concealed under moss and trailing ivy, and was decorated with magnificently disposed and lifelike animals. A huge bear, the first which the Crown-prince had shot when staying at Munkdcs, seemingly clung to a pine-trunk, and several superb eagles looked as if they were about to swoop down from their elevated positions near the ceiling. Owls, lynxes, pheasants, foxes—nay, even deer and stags —were all to be found in this wonderful room.

One of the most cherished possessions of the Crown prince was contained in a large glass-case, and was nothing less than the carcass of a horse in the act of being devoured by vultures, hawks, and ravens, the whole group being wonderfully prepared and executed, and giving one an exact idea of the gruesome thing itself. These birds were shot by Rudolph during his trip of " fifteen days on the Danube" which he described in one of his books, and also in Spain, in Egypt, and on the island of Plawnik, in the Quarnero.


The Prince's study at Mayerling was decorated with wonderful specimens of foreign and domestic arms— guns, carbines, pistols, matchlocks, swords, kandjars, and yataghans inlaid with gold, silver, and mother-of-pearl. These rested on the antlers of the many deer which Rudi had shot or forced. The magnificent snow-white Eddhirsche (noble deer) which he shot in Bohemia were perhaps the most remarkable items of this beautiful collection.

Now I have no problem with stuffed animals everywhere and decorations of weapons of war covering many walls but I just thought "Oh My!" when it came to the predatory/prey display in the glass-case with the horse as the most unfortunate creature.  Perhaps I'm just being silly, but this suggests something to me that is far from normal behavior?  There's only been one other person I know of who had his predator/prey art everywhere and therein was the heart of a killer.  And again, a horse of all creatures!  His mother's favorite and closest animal...............?

Another pre-sign I noticed that is consistent with the above was a statement that at the time seemed apparently just left to dangling in nonsense was in the book, "My Past" by Marie Larisch (niece of Sisi).  She claimed the Empress Sisi told her to be careful around Rudolf -- he could not be trusted and he was dangerous.  At the time it did not fit anywhere and I had not the slightest idea why such a strange statement should be attributed to a mother of all people.  

Another pre-sign that seems unrelated, but fits in with this general theme comes from a book by Archduke Leopold of Tuscany, a friend and cousin of Rudolf and someone who loved him but wasn't blinded to the other side.  He said something like ~~ Rudolf failed to show any empathy in his dealings with his multiple relationships with women, but then he could certainly understand how this might happen since Rudolf was never shown what love was from either parent.  

Next -- the manner of death described by 2 credible witnesses that is consistent with this dark side which is much worse than the official version of what happened at Mayerling.  Again, I may be way off-base here, but I'm still considering all possibilities and seeing where the best evidence leads.



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 23, 2010, 11:27:34 PM
(http://nd01.jxs.cz/125/865/0fe981ebff_42085115_o2.jpg)

(http://nd01.jxs.cz/602/602/891ebcb919_45971603_o2.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: heavensent on September 24, 2010, 02:43:21 AM
Maybe he was a bit of a 'dandy'  too ?

(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2527/crownprincerudolf.jpg) (http://img214.imageshack.us/i/crownprincerudolf.jpg/)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 24, 2010, 09:35:21 AM
 ;D;  Very true Heavensent.   Notice the ever present walking stick and the rings on each little finger.   One of Rudolf's great friends, the Prince of Wales, Edward Albert, was criticized by his father for being nothing more than a dandy, and Prince Edward Albert did like to think of himself as a mentor to Rudolf.  When age 19, Rudolf visited London and the Prince of Wales wanted to initiate him into the mysteries of London night life, but was amused to find that "this very nice boy" was already an experienced "man of the world".  (The Lonely Empress by Haslip)

Poor Rudolf, unlike both his parents, was never a horseman, and fearing she would be embarrassed by this lack, the Empress made him solemnly promise not to hunt while he was in England on this visit.  Rudolf replied ~~ "I certainly will take good care not to do any hunting" and anyway "do not see any great glory in breaking ones neck, and my popularity means too much to me to fling it way on things of this kind".  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 24, 2010, 09:50:58 AM
Yes. But he tried to make a pass at Bertie's mistress Lillie Langtry, who thew his gift to her in the fire.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 24, 2010, 10:13:42 AM
LOL!   Was it too hot to handle?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 24, 2010, 10:26:12 AM
Lily had a different taste in men. She liked mature men, not "kiddos" as Rudolph "was" (Actually he was  5 years her junior)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 24, 2010, 11:14:00 AM
Intrigued by this little bit of info I'd never heard, I did a search and came up with:

Quote
Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria-Hungary once gave her an emerald ring. Angered by an argument with him, she yanked off the ring and threw it into the fireplace. The crown prince fell to his knees, desperate to retrieve the emerald from the burning coals. Disgusted, Lillie told her friends, “I couldn’t love him after that.”
 
http://www.justwebit.com/members/38460/free.shtml

It sounds to me like Rudolf at least got to first base with Lillie, and maybe a few sour grapes on her part.   ;D

Whatever, it seems they were both Players Par Excellence.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on September 24, 2010, 11:25:49 AM
hahaha i can imagine poor Rudolf looking for that ring!1 xDDD

I leave a Picture of him with hussar uniform


(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/5703/rudzi.jpg) (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/rudzi.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 24, 2010, 12:55:21 PM
Yes. Lillie was a femme-fatale ! She was loyal to Bertie at the time, and not amused by Rudolf's adour. I think apart from Rudolf, King Leopold II of Belgium also called on her...

That photo of Rudolf captured his dreamy look !
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 24, 2010, 01:08:37 PM
Ahh... Rudolf certainly had a dark and gloomy side, I never denied that. Keeping a skull on your desk is creepy enough. I think that this dark side of him led to his death somehow, either by suicide or other means. And Rudolf being a 'dandy', it's not hard to imagine with his looks and all that, I'm pretty sure he got the ladies running for - and after - him. Lillie Langtry and Rudolf.... Ahh, I never read theat.... Is it captured in the television series on her? I'd love to see that....

I think I'll have to read "Martyrdom of an Empress" once, especially since there are cheap copies available online.... Also I intend on buying some early books, from the memoirs of Countess Larisch up to those of Princess Stephanie... Also, these were never released here in Belgium - neither did the movie "Mayerling" in 1936 -, The Court made sure Stephanie got no chance to release her memoirs here in Belgium, both for her childhood memoirs - which weren't happy ones - and how she looked upon her life as Crown Princess -, the movie was forbidden in theatres on her call.....

I keep thinking they should exhume Rudolf's body, and Mary's - again -, for that matter... Also they should dig for the papers Taaffe held. I read these were most likely burned when the Estate of Taaffe's family went up in flames(Partly). Believe that was in "A Nervous Splendor" by Frederic Morton(this book was used to give the musical a story, it works with the Hungarian Plot against Franz Jozef)...

And from what I've read Franz and Rudolf did not understand each other at all... Maybe Franz did fear Rudolf and his dangerous side... Those drawings he did as a child, shows his fascination with death was there from early on - like his mother, who wrote a poem when she was 14 that showed a clear longing for death(after her first crush died) -, and I believe this fascination was there throughout his life.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 24, 2010, 02:00:06 PM
Leopold II was a mean and wicked man, Stephanie was unlucky to have him as a father. period.

Yes, that is why Sisi felt so much guilt about Rudolf. He was so much like her, but she failed to rescue him out of his gloom. She was too wrapped up in Valerie and her horses to fight for her son.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 24, 2010, 03:37:59 PM
hahaha i can imagine poor Rudolf looking for that ring!1 xDDD

I leave a Picture of him with hussar uniform

 

Thank you again for that great photo KK, you find the best pictures.  :)  It's always great to see one I've never seen before, but I'm not real fond of those side chops.

Quote from: Imperial_Grounds
.... Also I intend on buying some early books, from the memoirs of Countess Larisch up to those of Princess Stephanie... Also, these were never released here in Belgium - neither did the movie "Mayerling" in 1936 -, The Court made sure Stephanie got no chance to release her memoirs here in Belgium, both for her childhood memoirs - which weren't happy ones - and how she looked upon her life as Crown Princess -, the movie was forbidden in theatres on her call.....

I keep thinking they should exhume Rudolf's body, and Mary's - again -, for that matter...

Are you saying the "Mayerling" movie in 1936 was forbidden in theatres by Stephanie?  I don't remember how she was portrayed in that movie -- probably not so good.  

The book by her nephew-in-law Carl Longyay has much to say about what Stephanie said in various letters as do the books "Clash of Generations by Cassels and "A Habsburg Tragedy" by Listowel.  I can't remember which of the latter two said that Stephanie was afraid to be alone with Rudolf for the last year or so.  

They should exhume Rudolf's body and Mary's again.  The last time Mary's body was exhumed, they'd requested a DNA test be done, and I think the family agreed to it at first, and upon further thought, forbid it.  No doubt though the physician would have snagged a small sample and probably knows the results by now, but of course cannot now say anything.

Leopold II was a mean and wicked man, Stephanie was unlucky to have him as a father............


Very true he was known as a wicked man -- he might have actually been a half-brother of the beloved prince consort of Queen Victoria.  One wonders how he got that way since Leopold I was suppose to be different, but further examination of his father's life shows some wicked traits too.  



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 24, 2010, 05:49:54 PM
Are you saying the "Mayerling" movie in 1936 was forbidden in theatres by Stephanie?  I don't remember how she was portrayed in that movie -- probably not so good.  

Yes, I don't remember where I read that but I've read it online and in a Belgian book on the Royal Family(actually the Princesses from Charlotte up to little Elisabeth, our future Queen, who is named after her greatgrandmother Elisabeth(who was a niece of Empress Elisabeth, she and King Albert had met at the funeral of Sophie, Duchess of Alencon, Sisi's sister... Elisabeth, like her cousin, also had some strange traits to be sure. She was called "The Red Queen" because she visited Russia in the days of the Communists and her political views were in favor of abolishing the Monarchy. Seems to be a "Wittelsbach trait")

She was portrayed as a jealous wife. Almost all movies portray her like this, only the most recent version gives her some humanity...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on September 26, 2010, 02:57:54 PM
http://www.lot-tissimo.com/de/cmd/d/o/141.60-2893/auk/60/p/4/

Rudolfs signet to buy for 4500 Euros.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on September 28, 2010, 04:02:39 PM
Ah well, muddling on here to try and see what the actual physical cause of death was to Rudolf.  This is of pivotal importance since it will give a good indication of the possible reasons leading to Rudolf's death.  Its importance can be seen in the desperate scramble to find something, anything that would stick.  The very first word was that Rudolf had been murdered, then poisoned, then he died from such natural causes as apoplexy and heart stoppage before finally settling on the suicide theory.  This vacillation is the cause of why today so many still doubt the official story of suicide, along with all the tears in the fabric of the primary witness testimony.

(http://www.mayerling.de/images/loschek.jpg)

The first primary witness was Johann Loschek, who claimed that he could see immediately that Rudolf had killed Vetsera and then himself with 2 well-aimed shots that he heard soon before breaking down the 1st floor door and discovering the bodies.  Immediately it is apparent that this contradicts the later testimony that Mary was dead at least several hours before Rudolf.  It also suggests some amazing powers of observation in someone not trained in forensic or police science.

The resulting lack of credibility in relying on Loschek as the first and primary witness to make the official case of suicide was that Loschek told too many tales.  At one time one author estimated there were at least a hundred different versions about what happened from Loschek.  His explanation for doing this was that he liked to talk and he liked to drink and he was worried that the truth would slip out, and so this is how he covered his tracks.  But ah-hah, this is exactly where he gives himself away, in that the official version he gave must not be the truth.  By all reports, Loschek was devoted to Rudolf, so then it follows that what he was so desperate to hide must have had something to do with protecting the memory of Rudolf.  Of course this assumes that Loschek’s first allegiance was to Rudolf and not to someone else, and again, this seems to be the case since Loschek had a reputation for not being liked by anyone outside of Rudolf’s immediate circle and this was thought to be because Loschek refused to release any information about Rudolf that might be demanded of others particularly in the Emperor’s court.

Johann Loschek made his last official statement soon before he died to his son about what happened at Mayerling and this was published in 1932.  In this statement he reinforced the official version of suicide and he also stated that the presence of a third person or that glass shards stuck in Rudolf’s head are like so much about Rudolf's death fictitious.  One has to wonder why of all the other theories, Loschek would specifically disclaim only these 2 – the glass shards and more bodies?  Could it be these 2 were the only serious threats to protecting the memory of his beloved Rudolf?

As an interesting aside, in his last statement, Loschek stated, “...........I knelt down, put my head on Rudolf's arm and wept bitterly;  A knock startled me, it was already Dr. Widerhofer and a secretary, whom took up the facts according to my data.”  This “secretary” wrote a book in 1915 called “The Last Days of Archduke Rudolph” in which he describes arriving in the room with Dr. Widerhofer.  Incidentally, the claim of this private secretary was that Rudolf was not suicidal or mentally or physically sick but in top form.  The secretary was in the area since he had arranged to deliver some manuscripts Rudolf had asked him to get from a library in Vienna so he could work on a book while at Mayerling, which certainly suggests an absence of planned suicide by Rudolf.

The only other witness at Mayerling who gave a statement was Count Josef Hoyos-Sprinzenstein.
(http://www.mayerling.de/images/hoyos.jpg)

His account was finally discovered ~30 years later and published by Baron von Mitis in his “The Life of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Habsburg”, but as various authors have since noted, he obviously had many “memory lapses” in his account.  Apparently his first account of the tragedy was rejected by Franz Joseph who saw the lies in it immediately and reprimanded him severely.  This was followed by Hoyos ~~offering to fall on his sword for forgiveness~~ from the Emperor, and later he wrote a more careful statement of what happened at Mayerling.  However as Listowel pointed out in her book “A Habsburg Tragedy”, the timing he gave in his later statement was impossible – so one is left to conclude that Rudolf must have died several hours at least before the time claimed by Hoyos or Loschek.  

Other than the timing and the number of people present, the official testimony of Hoyos and Loschek was more or less in agreement.
However, there was another reported statement from Hoyos several years after the Mayerling deaths where he told a friend that Rudolf had been killed by a blow from a champagne bottle doing something – (can’t remember what the circumstances were now and can’t find it).  The Emperor found out he had sent this other statement and was very upset and made him retrieve it, burn it and retract his statement.  

So it would seem the glass-shards-in-the-brain-story was quite a sensitive taboo to the official story of how Rudolf died.  Naturally, the next question is how could Rudolf’s death from a blow to the head by a champagne bottle be seen as so much worse than a self-inflicted gunshot wound?  

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on September 28, 2010, 04:15:56 PM
I have heard about the claim too, Rudolf being hit with a bottle - and the same for Mary, that  she was severaly beaten, but also many claims are there that the gunshot-theory was true -, I don't know what to think and as long as we don't know anything I intend to believe the suicide, no matter what the circumstances might have been, also I remember reading in certain memoirs that Rudolf was 'dangerous', claimed by the Empress to Countess Larisch, and that it was best not to be alone with him.... Why would Elisabeth say this? Certainly, something went on in Rudolf's life... He might have been 'ill' in the way his mother was called 'ill' - melancholic, longing for death( Rudolf clearly did, the signs are there), not being understod... And all that, so it might as well have been Rudolf died in a suicide-act. Also we tend to forget that Rudolf used morphine and the sorts to ease his pain, that he had an STD and that all this might have been boiling up and lead him to a desperate act, such being a suicide-pact...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 01, 2010, 09:30:17 PM
Here's a little information and a photo I found on the author of "He did not Die at Mayerling" who claimed to be the first child of Rudolf, H.R. van Deventer.

(http://oi53.tinypic.com/2v01t87.jpg)

Can't tell if he looks like Rudolf or not?  

He was a patent attorney and inventor including founding a company called Domestic Elec Refrigeraid Co. (H.R. Van Deventer, Inc., New York) which was interesting since he claimed John Oth and Rudolf made their living by shipping refrigerated beef from El Salvator to Europe.  

He wrote "Ignition Hand Book". By H. R. Van Deventer. 1911. Gift of Sumter Telephone Mfg. Co.

I also saw where he had a patent on some self-generating power source in the early 1900s.

Here's a little blurb about him from the Sumter Company:

Quote
Mr. H. R. Van Deventer, electrical and sales engineer, is one of three brothers who made electrical pursuits their life work.  After completing a collegiate education and obtaining the degrees of B. S., E. E., Mr. Van Deventer took up general engineering work being employed in responsible positions by several of the larger operating companies.  Realizing the field for independent telephony in the South, Mr. Van Deventer became associated with the Sumter company.

Immediately the advantage of his fifteen years of practical experience in the operating field was apparent, especially in connection with actual service tests, and the design of special circuits to meet certain conditions.  The United States government specifications are particularly rigid as to inspection, and the technical details of the apparatus to be furnished, and Mr. Van Deventer has been remarkably successful in devising tests to locate imperfections in raw or finished material, with the result that every order of Sumter apparatus submitted has been inspected and approved without change or rejection in any particular.  By means of a fully equipped laboratory, with connections through cable to the city exchange, many miles of cable being in circuit if desired, Mr. Van Deventer has attained actual service conditions for tests, which all Sumter  apparatus must undergo before leaving the factory.

Mr. Van Deventer is a well known contributor to the technical press on various subjects of a practical nature.  Being a registered patent attorney and member of the various engineering societies, he also realized the necessity of collecting and preserving the literature of the telephone art.  To this end he has for many years gathered date, models of apparatus - especially early designs of Mr. Mason, etc., some of which have but recently proved of great value in patent litigation of vital importance to Independent telephony.

Mr. Van Deventer has long desired to contribute something of permanent value to telephone literature, and, after more than two years labor, has just completed Telephonology, a work of nearly 600 pages with over 700 illustrations, describing in detail modern apparatus, systems, and methods, written especially for the practical man, and valuable to the large and small exchange.  This work incorporates date never before obtainable outside the engineering offices and laboratories of the larger operating companies and manufacturers.  The appearance of this work is awaited with interest.

Mr. Van Deventer handles the advertising, and usually represents the Sumter company at conventions, and in other ways booms Sumter products.  Throughout the South he is widely known as a through Independent, and practical telephone man.


It was a strange book in that there was clearly no motive for fame or fortune in writing this book since he was so careful to keep his identity secret and also because of the odd inserts of words -- almost as if they were in code, but made little sense and seemed out of context.   For example there was this statement about Crown Prince Rudolf amid the consistent praise:  
Quote
"There was  a tragedy of Meyerling, but it was not the tragedy history has recorded, -- the supposed death of the Crown Prince Rudolf, Archduke of Austria.  It was a tragedy greater by far than that, for if he had died then, it would have been the end of suffering for him, for his father, the Emperor Francis Joseph, for his mother the beautiful Empress Elizabeth, and for me".
 
What a chilling and shocking statement that is!!!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2010, 03:13:47 PM
Rudolf did have a child other than Erzi. He was born to Archduchess Antonia of Tuscany, who took the child away to be bought up elsewhere. She end up being an abbess of some monestary (that made sense since she was sickly and died young). The child's existance was recorded in "The Petite Gotha" and was reconized by the Hapsburg family.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 03, 2010, 07:37:13 PM
Eric, the one you're referring to is Robert Pachmann and I doubt he and van Deventer are one and the same..........well I mean it would be difficult since they were both well known in their circles by different names.  What's interesting is Deventer wrote his book in 1934 and published it in early 1937 and later in 1937, Robert Pachmann petitioned a court for the first time for recognition as Rudolf's son.  I'm not sure if Pachmann got the idea from Deventer's book or if the book gave him the incentive to do something he'd already wanted to do.  

http://tinyurl.com/39vak3u  (scroll down)
http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Page/straitstimes19661125.1.9.aspx

Here's a photo from the latest book I've been reading:   the equestrian portrait of Rudolf by Tadeucz Aidukiewicz, where Rudolf forgot and left tell-tale letters in the pocket of the coat jacket that was kept by Aidukiewicz.  One of the letters by Marie Larisch was given to the emperor and sealed her permanent exile from court.   The other letter was supposedly about threats from Mary Vetsera, but its existence might just be fantasy.

(http://oi51.tinypic.com/18jd3k.jpg)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2010, 01:06:47 PM
Yes I don't think they are the same. Although it seems that the Hapsburg family accepted the claims of Robert Pachmann as was listed in "The Petite Gotha".
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Whiskers on October 04, 2010, 06:59:17 PM
Is there any pictures of Robert Pachmann, or his father Carl Rudolf?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 05, 2010, 02:12:13 PM
I've never seen any photos of any Pachmanns.   It seems he's had a bad time though -- not only was he not accepted by the Habsburgs but then he was disowned by the Pachmanns for wanting to be a Habsburg.  

http://tinyurl.com/266e5b5

In reading Fritz Judtmann's book "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend", I noticed a little coincidence which may or may not be related.   Judtmann in his exhaustive detail of the contents of Rudolf's estate told of a loan of 300,000k to Rudolf from Baron Hirsch.  150,000k was already gone and 100,000k of that was unaccounted for.  40 years earlier, in 1937,  Deventer wrote that he received a letter from Rudolf stating in part, "The Doctor has provision for you and Koinoff leaves soon for America where he proposes to settle as his state of health no longer permits him to serve us here.  He will see you and deliver 100,000 k. which I am sending.  I shall probably follow soon......................."  

Koinoff was frequently mentioned in the 1915 book "The Last Days of Archduke Rudolf" where it stated he was employed by Rudolf in some security capacity and had moved to the USA about the same time as the Mayerling deaths.

Unfortunately, although there seems to have been some genuine purpose in writing the book, it's hard to take Deventer's book as the entire truth since there are too many inconsistencies.   For example, he continually refers to what a devout Catholic Rudolf was, and that is contrary to everything written by Rudolf on the subject of religion.  Another is how Wilhelm II and his brother Prince Henry are both referred to with great affection, but it's been accepted there was not a lot of love lost between them and Rudolf, and in fact there was a bitter newspaper campaign to see who could damage the others reputation the most between Rudolf and Wilhelm II in the months before Rudolf's death.  The 1915 book "The Last Days of Archduke Rudolf" even claimed that Koinoff uncovered a plot by Wilhelm II and the Papal Nuncio in Austria to assassinate Rudolf, and Prince Henry was also involved.  Koinoff was then working in some capacity for Bismarck before switching to Rudolf.



Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2010, 02:45:39 PM
In the Petite Gotha, Puchmann was given the right as the decedent of Arhduke Rudolf.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 05, 2010, 04:05:26 PM
Eric, was that a contested court decision or one won by default since no one showed up?  Sadly, either way, there wasn't a lot of rights associated with being a descendant of Crown Prince Rudolf.  One of Erzi's children even died in poverty, his namesake even?  

In addition, Deventer claimed old FJ had Rudolf sign papers of renunciation for him and all his descendants.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2010, 04:40:22 PM
I think it is more of idenitity than money & pocessions. He will be the decendent of a full Hapsburg (both Rudolf & Antonia were Hapsburgs). Also the love children of Sisi's sisters made it a possibility. Evidently they have seen it before.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 06, 2010, 09:23:33 AM
Archduchess Maria Antonia was the eldest daughter of Ferdinand IV of Tuscany and Rudolf used to spend summers with them and they were the same age so it is of course possible.  Archduke Leopold, the eldest son of Ferdinand IV and Maria Antonia's brother said that Rudolf could resist any temptation except that of a woman.

Both Archduke Leopold and his next sister, Louise ex-crown princess of Saxony were quite out-spoken and wrote books about their family and themselves that left little to the imagination.  Considering the nature of their books, it would surprise me that they might have had knowledge of a child between their oldest sister and Rudolf and never mentioned it.

Here's a photo of Maria Antonia's mother when she was Hereditary Grand Duchess of Tuscany -- quite beautiful!  I couldn't find any of Maria Antonia though.  :(

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Anna_Maria_of_Saxony.jpg/210px-Anna_Maria_of_Saxony.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 06, 2010, 09:27:57 AM
interesting. Is it there a real photo of her? Cause i dont trust that much in portraits.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 06, 2010, 09:35:33 AM
Katenka -- I looked but couldn't find any other photo or portrait.  What I need to do is learn German better for better searches on this subject,  ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 06, 2010, 09:50:15 AM
Im looking for some image of her but nothing, not even at the ONB. Weird ..
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2010, 10:06:16 AM
Yes. If you look at a book called "The Unknown Hapsburgs" about the Tuscan branch of Hapsburgs. There is a photo of Antoina dressed in the order of abbess. There is a well known drawing of Antonia (the kind you find inside an old Gotha) survive..
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Whiskers on October 06, 2010, 03:06:04 PM
For someone who pertains to be associated with the Habsburg family, Robert Pachmann and son.
Having no Images for reference on the web In this day and age, seems a little strange to me.

There Is a common visual similarity between all branches of the Habsburg family, they have similar anatomical features, you would know one family member from the other.

If anyone knows of any Images of Robert Pachmann and son, It would be Interesting to know what they actually look like?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2010, 04:51:44 PM
I am sure they have an image of him in Germany...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 06, 2010, 04:54:50 PM
And im sure his family got TONS of images of him...tee hee (http://www.adslzone.net/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 07, 2010, 06:38:30 AM
It would be great to see a book on the illegitemate Habsburgs... In fact, this is the case for the Romanovs and other Royal Families too. One thing Rudolf had in common with his father was the mistresses and the illegitimate children.... Though I believe Franz Jozef was faithful in his marraige up to the point Elisabeth began to distance herself from him, when she started her endless traveling, was less affectionate towards him and such(I truly believe the first years of their marriage were happy ones, had it not been for his mother and the life at court things might have been a little better, but by the time Sophie died they were too estranged already).
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2010, 12:27:00 PM
Not really. Elisabeth began to distance herself from Franz Josef once she discovered that he infected her in some mild form of sexually transmitted diease. Actually she collapsed emotionally and decided to get as far as she could away from him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 07, 2010, 12:35:51 PM
I heard exactly the same story but with Stephanie as the "affected" one...

In fact, i ve heard that Elisabeth just allowed FJ in her bedroom when she wanted something. Maybe she just doesnt like  to have intimicy, thats all because, as far as i know, FJ was very careful about with who he had intercourse. Remember the "Hygienic countesses"
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 07, 2010, 12:53:37 PM
Not really. Elisabeth began to distance herself from Franz Josef once she discovered that he infected her in some mild form of sexually transmitted diease. Actually she collapsed emotionally and decided to get as far as she could away from him.

Yes, the musical states this and I read that it is possible that Franz infected her but that it is not proven... I don't take it as fact, none of the Biographies I've read state it as fact... Only rumours.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2010, 03:06:36 PM
I think Joan Halsip and Brigitte wrote it as "most probably". It would explain why Sisi suddenly collapsed emotionally and did not want her husband to physically touch her for many years until the Hungarian question was resolved. Had it not happen, Sisi might have had more children like Nene (who had two sons and two daughters...and maybe more had her husband had not died).
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 07, 2010, 03:09:29 PM
But having a "supposed STD" is not the only reason  for a woman to avoid intimacy. Eugenie of France did the same thing cause she didnt like go to bed with Napoleon.

This was SO common. I ve stumbled upon this kind of cases many times studying Victorian and edwardian era
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2010, 03:15:33 PM
I think Eugenie did the same thing because her husband was unfaithful. Also both Maximilan of Mexico (Franz Josef's brother) & Rudolf infected their wives with STD and resulted in their being childless (not to mention his nephew Otto (father of Charles) died of it). I read Vienna was rampant with STD at that time. While Franz Josef was more careful, it would not be a stretch to suppose he might have been slightly tarnished. Based upon circumstancial evidence I believe that it did happen.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 07, 2010, 03:26:54 PM
Well i do believe its just "suppositions" and not real facts. Its very easy to speculate, even more with "circumstancial facts" and some fantasy and gossip behind

Back to rudolph. here a nice image of him in hussar uniform from the LOC

(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/8430/3121121328d8e8d94d5bo.jpg) (http://img84.imageshack.us/i/3121121328d8e8d94d5bo.jpg/)

 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 07, 2010, 04:44:13 PM
Nice photo again Katenka.  Thanks!  :)  The drawings and portraits of Rudolf are never as good as the real photos.  Here's another must be from the same sitting:

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/98o4gwy5bjzrmhd1ejki.jpg)

Here's a drawing from the Judtmann book showing the different styles of Rudolf's hair/beard with time -- although I do remember a photo of Rudolf in 1884 with only a mustache that is not included.  It's be nice to have more photos of Rudolf from the last time -- I only remember the ones with the cigar.

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/v4pn2buamu8bl813dgx6.jpg)

Notice the words below of Stephanie's in the above photo?  That's probably why they had no more children.  Gonorrhea and morphine use were as common back then as fever blisters and tylenol are today.  To say they are evidence that Rudolf was debauched and dissolute is missing the mark.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2010, 05:10:38 PM
Like father like son. Even when Franz Josef was young, he had mistresses who he had sex with. He also had a mistress before Sisi (not knowing that) introduced him to Katherina (the actress) to become her substitute. It is more than likely that he had "conteminated" her in some way. Rudolf was only following tradition when he did the same to Stephanie.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 08, 2010, 06:41:05 AM
In fact, back in those years, a man without mistress was weird as black pearls.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 08, 2010, 06:42:02 AM
Well, we know Rudolf infected his wife and numerous others... It is amazing that in those days men could have as much affairs as they wanted, while women would have been condemned greatly. Also, Franz might have had an STD but still there is no proof. We must not forget that Elisabeth didn't like sex and such and that eventually she used it as a means to get her way. Also we must not forget that Elisabeth traveled a great deal before the Hungarian Coronation and that it her travels only expanded over the years. This also may partly be a reason why there were no more children, and also it must have been awful for her she could not raise her own children at first and this might have prevented her from concieving - on purpose of course - after they got a Crown Prince. But Franz did have several mistresses for sure, which makes it hard to believe he wanted Rudolf to quit Mary, unless something went on behind the walls.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 08, 2010, 08:34:06 AM
In fact, back in those years, a man without mistress was weird as black pearls.

LOL!   And you know black pearls and diamonds were in great demand then in Austria.  

The assumption was that the archdukes were often required to marry for political reasons and not for love.  Consequently,  they were encouraged by the Court to have "sweet girls" as compensation and to contain their energies.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 08, 2010, 08:51:23 AM
"Sweet" and "bold" girls who does thing that wives didnt do!

Other nice image of Rudolph in hussar uniform

(http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9786/rudyw.jpg) (http://img651.imageshack.us/i/rudyw.jpg/)
 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 08, 2010, 10:15:57 AM
That photo of Rudolf is so sad -- it was taken about 3 years before he died in the spring of 1886 when he was quite sick.   Here's some photos taken after the one above which show more of his Imperial Boldness, ;)

(http://oi51.tinypic.com/20hrix2.jpg)

(http://oi55.tinypic.com/s5l8oo.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 08, 2010, 10:40:30 AM
You really see Rudolf is ill on that picture, the look is so haunting. Also, I have several pictures in a book of the last session he did. Strange that those are exactly my favorites of him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 08, 2010, 11:34:55 AM
Sad pictures of Rudolf. Yes his parents did travel, but that shouldn't prevent Franz & Sisi having sex togather unless she finds out that something was not going right. The fact that he had infected her in any way (even mildly) would have sent someone as sensative as Sisi into a tailspin. She did not want him to touch her or even in the same room alone with her unless her own family members were with her (when she came back). Only gradually did she allow Franz to couple with her after Hungary. Because Sisi did not have a hand to raise Rudolf, he had the same mistakes as his father and cousins. Had Sisi been fond of Stephanie, she could have warned her, but she took an intense dislike on her (perhaps remembering her aunt Charlotte).
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 08, 2010, 11:44:44 AM
Eric,....there are  A LOT  of reasons why Elisabeth didnt want to have intimacy with Franz Josef

1)She just didnt like sex, just like Eugenie and other women of the era who had terrible experiences with it. Remember , in that era Female orgasms "didnt exist", and for mostly of woman it was a disgusting duty to do. I know about this cause i ve spend years studying Victorian and edwardian era.

3)As a "sensitive woman" she was upset to know he was having affairs . I can imagine her being angry and disgusted to share man with another woman, if she was a jealous woman

4)You reckon that Elisabeth would "forget" FJ`s "supposed STD" just want he wanted to get something?. You re trying to say that she maybe she would put in jeopardy her health to get what she wanted?

5)According to my first point of view, she already gave him an heir and saw her work done. Maybe she enjoyed more of her travels and another activities instead being pregnant and have children and thats why she avoided her husband.

For the mortality of STD of that era, if FJ  had one (i doubt it) he lived WAY TO MUCH and for what i ve read and seen in images, he was a very active and busy man.

 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 08, 2010, 11:46:17 AM
You really see Rudolf is ill on that picture, the look is so haunting. Also, I have several pictures in a book of the last session he did. Strange that those are exactly my favorites of him.

He doesn't look well in that photo and the captions have said it was taken in 1886 when he was ill.

I'd love to see images of the last photo session Rudolf had.  I've seen a drawing of a photo from that last session, but of course the drawings or paintings never capture that special charm of Rudolf.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 08, 2010, 12:02:47 PM
Katenka...All respects to your opinion.

However I do have to point out that the demise of physical affection between Sisi & Franz was very sudden if you read any book on Sisi dealing with that period.

1. You are right about Sisi not liking sex, but she did like getting close to Franz and early letters & diaries show that she wanted her husband all to herself and made time for the two togather. In fact shortly before the collapse she was still writing affection notes to Franz.

2. Yes, she was a jealous woman and to Sisi her only ally in the Schonbrunn/Holfburg. The betrayal must have been hard pill for her to bear...but to afflict her in any way would havestrain the nerves of a sensative woman like Sisi. She redrew completely from him. You can actually date this period.

3. No of course. Sisi would have to be sure that he is "clean" before she would subject herself to reunited with him. Franz had pleaded with her through letters and also sent Nene to beg her to return. Sisi came back a Queen and her husband a slave. However he must have played a good acting part as she never realised he had another mistress during the time she was gone...

4.Not really. For example Valerie was the example of love of being reunited with her husband and her work for Hungary. You seem to forget that Sisi had a big family and would probably would want more children had not Archduchess Sofie being in the way.

Franz Josef was busy...but not too busy for a mistress & sex.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 08, 2010, 12:10:13 PM
I mean busy and active for bein a supposed "ill man". Remember that  there was no cure for mostly of the STD of the era (AKA Gonorrea ,Syphillis )
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 08, 2010, 12:18:34 PM
I think it was a mild form of STD...maybe even lice...something curable. I remember reading about he was usually provided with "hygenie countesses" for his amusement before his marriage to Sisi.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 08, 2010, 01:16:17 PM
Speaking of Sisi and her sex life, there were many rumors of an affair with Bay Middleton, and Middleton and Rudolf actually had a falling out over the former's  relationship with the Empress in London when Rudolf was ~ age 20.  Undoubtedly, Middleton acquired a good deal of information about Rudolf from the Empress.  Middleton always stated with great authority that the Empress insisted her only son had been murdered, and it was over a love affair with someone other than Mary Vetsera.  Here's an excerpt from a statement by Middleton about Rudolph:

Quote
.............he  lived at far too great a pace, and was a wreck when death carried him off.  How could anyone suppose that a man with such a character would lay violent hands on himself?  It takes moral courage to commit suicide, particularly when love, which implies deep feelings, is the cause.  You'll search in vain for anything like that in Rudolf.

This was from the book, "The Emperor Francis Joseph and his Times" by Lieutenant General Baron von Margutti C.V.O written in 1921.  The problem with this quote is that the author claimed it came from a conversation he had with Bay Middleton as an old man in 1915, but alas, Middleton was killed in a riding accident about 15 years before this supposed conversation.  

However, Margutti the author was an aide-de-camp in the Dept of the Imperial Household for 17 years, and he probably heard things so Middleton may have actually said something like that since there was bad blood between Rudolf and Middleton.   Nonetheless, it is a good example how inventive people could be when telling "the truth" about Rudolf's life.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 08, 2010, 01:48:19 PM
I think that was what Bay thought of Rudolf than perhaps the actual truth.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 08, 2010, 03:43:29 PM
And Bay and Elisabeth never were proven to have had an affair.... I don't think Elisabeth had an affair with him. She doesn't seem the woman to have one in my opinion.
Also one wonders what the relationship between Elisabeth and Andrassy was. I am certain it wasn't anything sexual... Just a mutual goal, something that bound them for life.
It is said that Elisabeth was flirtatious, however none of her friendships would lead to an affair it is believed, and used her beauty and grace to get what she wanted. We know this is true.

You are right about Sisi not liking sex, but she did like getting close to Franz and early letters & diaries show that she wanted her husband all to herself and made time for the two togather. In fact shortly before the collapse she was still writing affection notes to Franz.

Exactly... As I stated, the marriage started out as the fairytale it often is implied to be.... But soon all of that turned into something more tragic with Elisabeth and her relationship with Sophie, her struggle with life at court and eventually the affair Franz must have had. As a young woman she must have been heartbroken about this, but later on she simply thought she could not ask her husband to live alone for her sake. Also, though the marriage had its troubles, the couple wrote endlessly towards each other and very often their letters are really affectionate and filled with love and kindness. This was not only the case in the early years, but also near the end of Elisabeth's life and all those countless times she was away.... If I remember correctly she herself mentioned - or wrote - that whenever she was away from her husband she would miss him, but that whenever they were near they would never know what to talk about and how to act around each other because of the strained relationship between them... All this is a tragedy on its own. And all this is partly thanks to Archduchess Sophie, since she wanted Sisi to do her will and tried to crush Elisabeth(though most likely not on purpose, she just wanted Elisabeth to play the role of Empress as she saw it fit), also this lead to Elisabeth's bad state when she was at court, the anxiety of all those forces working against her, her children whom she was not allowed to see often, whom she had no part in raising up until she found out what happend with her son, and all this too made Elisabeth to the woman who she was near the end of her life. If Elisabeth would have had the chance to become the Empress she wanted to be, she might have been a great Consort - no matter how shy she was.

I think it was a mild form of STD...maybe even lice...something curable. I remember reading about he was usually provided with "hygenie countesses" for his amusement before his marriage to Sisi.

I remember reading that too, about the chance that Franz had transmitted a mild form of STD onto his wife. It does make sense, but she was not well before that either because of her life at court and the fact she had a hard time dealing with it, I think the infidelity of her husband must have been the last drop.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Linnie on October 08, 2010, 05:11:54 PM
It is nice to see the Robert Pachmann's story discussed here. A few years back, I had mentioned it, only to be dismissed. The thread that I started was subsequently erased.

I have found what looks like the guide to an exbibit on Crown Prince Rudolph that mentions pictures and documents showing that Rudolph had acknowledged Robert Pachmann as his son.
http://tiny.cc/51gdk
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on October 08, 2010, 05:48:57 PM
The conspiracy against FJ is very interesting. Rudolf for Hungary and Johann Salvator for Austria. Don´t think it´s true, but the idea is very exciting.
And who knows. It´s sad what happend to Rudolf and Austria-Hungary. FJ was a great miscast.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 08, 2010, 09:22:57 PM
It is nice to see the Robert Pachmann's story discussed here.


The Dusseldorf human-relations counselor, Dr. Theodor Rudolf Pachmann has no appearance since 1966.  An update would be great if anyone knows?

=======================

In attempting to put the puzzle pieces together for what happened at Mayerling, there is one piece of evidence that seems to be ignored or vigorously denied, but unfortunately, of all the so-called evidence, it has perhaps the least reason to be discounted.  This testimony comes from Ferdinand IV of  Tuscany via the books of his children Archduke Leopold and Louise, ex-Crown Princess of Saxony.  Ferdinand IV or "Nando" as the emperor called him was probably the closest thing to what the emperor had in the way of a friend and referred to him as his "best friend".   (also in "Clash of Generations" by Cassels)  On the day Rudolph died, Nando received a telegraph from the emperor to come to Vienna, that Rudolph was dead.   He arrived the next morning on 1/31 at about 6:30am and found the emperor in a state of shock and unable to talk other than to say Rudolph..............Rudolf..........

Here's a photo of Ferdinand IV (front left) with his brothers.  Johann Orth is behind him on your left.

(http://oi52.tinypic.com/2yl7huu.jpg)

Apparently this was soon after Dr. Weiderhofer, the court physician, told FJ the truth about Rudolf's death and that he wasn't poisoned, or maybe the truth had just sunk in or maybe he could allow himself to all of a sudden feel in shock in the presence of his friend, since the day before, after hearing about the death of his only son, he was still functioning well enough to send out many telegrams.  

So Nando took the emperor by the arm and led him into the bedroom where Rudolf was lying and there saw Dr. Weiderhofer pulling long shards of green glass out of Rudolf's brain and surmised, or was told it was the remnants of a champagne bottle.

As a witness, Nando has to be one of the best available in the whole Mayerling Affair, since he was close/part of the Imperial family, but not so close that he would have any motive for telling other than the truth since he was not dependent on the court in any way.  Besides, he had a reputation for being a very truthful man with a wife and many children who loved and respected him to the highest degree.  IOW, there is no basis for ignoring this testimony of Ferdinand IV of Tuscany.

Now assuming that Rudolph did die at Mayerling, this puts everything into a whole new point of view.  Firstly, it mostly rules out the possibility of suicide, although Franz Judtman made a valiant attempt to explain how Rudolf could have killed himself with a champagne bottle!!  So much for the glories of a romantic suicide!   Next, it probably also rules out the exciting intrigue of some political assassination since who could imagine Roll Commandoes resorting to something as plebeian as a champagne bottle as their weapon of choice?  

This is not to say that suicide was not planned (by someone) or even that some political assassination was not in the planning works, but they are just a coincidence to how Rudolf actually died at Mayerling.

So without suicide and without some political assassination, what would account for the death of Rudolf, while still accounting for all the accepted/official evidence?   It's late......................more later.

(http://oi52.tinypic.com/r89tp0.jpg)

Before and after the autopsy and correction with wax and paint.







Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 09, 2010, 06:51:34 AM
The second one is a painting or a image? Remember, painters did a wonderful job "making beautiful" even the deceased ones. Just look at Alexander II `s post mortem portraits (He died in a bombing attack)

The only raw and gorish Post mortem portrait i ve seen is the one of Ludwig II by  Kaulbach

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9678/hbmiimtspxgenr380xa.jpg
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 09, 2010, 07:16:15 AM
What did he have into his mouth?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 09, 2010, 07:23:00 AM
Blood. That s how people ends when they die drowned.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 09, 2010, 07:28:22 AM
So without suicide and without some political assassination, what would account for the death of Rudolf, while still accounting for all the accepted/official evidence?

True, but all that does not explain Mary Vetsera's presence.... Also, can we dismiss Mary's writing? And again, I'm talking about the letters she wrote before their deaths occurred at Mayerling, in that she stated that there was a pact between her and Rudolf, her mother found some sort of note a few days before she died(she said she'd throw herself in the Dunaube or something... Don't remember exactly what it said), also there are the letters found at Mayerling and even in the Hofburg that were written by Mary and Rudolf.... Can we dismiss that? I too have heard about the champagne bottle - without a proper explanation, they dismissed it as part of the legend -, concluding that if it might be true, Rudolf and Mary had a fight and that Mary was too struck by killing Rudolf that she killed herself.... But again, none of this explains the letters that were found... All those support the suicide, and as far as I can tell it is Rudolf's handwriting. They should examine one of those letter and one of his earlier writings... That would not explain what might have happened, but then people at least could not say these are fakes.

The only raw and gorish Post mortem portrait i ve seen is the one of Ludwig II by  Kaulbach

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9678/hbmiimtspxgenr380xa.jpg

Quite gross... True that they always tried to make the deceased look at their best. Even now they do that.... Always thought Alexander II's portrait looked a bit too well. When Queen Astrid of Belgium died(in a car crass, 1935) she had a terrible wound on her head and the Court Photographer actually made sure that the scars, the wounds, she got in the accident were not seen on pictures of her.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 09, 2010, 08:50:25 AM
FJ was very careful about with who he had intercourse. Remember the "Hygienic countesses"
Oh, you've intrigued me! Do tell, darling, who were they?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 09, 2010, 09:06:37 AM
The "Hygienic countesses" were some noble ladies who introduced Franz Joseph in sexual life. Those  were choosen for being part of the nobility and for being "clean"  (AKA with no STD). Its said that Archduchess Sophie made all the arrangements to get the young emperor to those women.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 09, 2010, 09:32:04 AM
The "Hygienic countesses" were some noble ladies who introduced Franz Joseph in sexual life. Those  were choosen for being part of the nobility and for being "clean"  (AKA with no STD). Its said that Archduchess Sophie made all the arrangements to get the young emperor to those women.

Very interesting! I presume they were married, perhaps even post-menopause? I can't imagine that many noble families would sacrifice their virgin daughters for Imperial Sex Education!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 09, 2010, 09:37:33 AM
I dont know. I will search for info, names and images of these "countesses" and when i get something i will post it here ;-D
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 09, 2010, 12:44:31 PM
Joan Halsip wrote that the ones that FJ selected after his marriage may not have been so "clean" after all. It could be one slid through the cracks. The writings of Sisi had up to that point up FJ up on the pedstal (apart from work & obeying Archduchess Sofie). The discovery that he was "polluted" (same term actor James Steward wrote about his early Hollywood days) created a change in the balance of the marriage. She wanted him no longer and could not love him after that, but she did say she "pity" him. I guess Rudolf was offered the same advice, but did not stick to the "hygenie countesses". If he & his cousin Otto did, their health might not have been ruined...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 09, 2010, 05:41:17 PM
I guess Rudolf was offered the same advice, but did not stick to the "hygenic countesses". If he & his cousin Otto did, their health might not have been ruined...

Eric, it seems so much about Rudolf is contradiction.  At least a couple authors I remember said the ideas of Rudolf as a great womanizer were all myth -- not that he didn't like women, but his true passions were politics and natural science (hunting -- collecting specimens), but he wasn't above using so-called love affairs to cover up his political activities since he was always being watched.  

I'm uncertain about what's true and what's spin regarding Rudolf and his excesses with women, so I'll try to keep an open mind.   In the months before Rudolf's death, he was having nasty exchanges via newspapers with Wilhelm II about who was more dissolute.  Rudolf was ready to make public the fact that Wilhelm II was seeing a "sweet girl" in Vienna quite often.  This would have been completely opposite to the lily-white reputation being claimed by the German Emperor at the time.  The article never had the chance to be published before Rudolf's death.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 10, 2010, 06:28:48 AM
From what I've heard Rudolf wasn't a true womanizer, but he was a good lover, a man who was searching for motherly affection instead of some sexual pleasures.... I've also heard that he actually preferred elder women over young girls - this would explain his crushing on Lillie Langtry. This I can imagine to be true, as if he was looking for the affection he never was given from his parents.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on October 10, 2010, 07:01:25 AM
From what I've heard Rudolf wasn't a true womanizer, but he was a good lover, a man who was searching for motherly affection instead of some sexual pleasures.... I've also heard that he actually preferred elder women over young girls - this would explain his crushing on Lillie Langtry. This I can imagine to be true, as if he was looking for the affection he never was given from his parents.

He had also a crush on his aunt Maria Theresia, wife of Karl Ludwig. He felt pity for her, because he was much older than her.
(and he liked small, brunette women, and think of Stephanie who was tall and blonde)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 10, 2010, 07:05:23 AM
i never imagined that Maria Theresa was a petite woman. She looks very imponent in all  the pictures i ve seen of her.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on October 10, 2010, 08:19:45 AM
(http://i387.photobucket.com/albums/oo319/DonaIsabella/h640-1.jpg)

Besides a man, she looks not so small.

Rudolf liked her hair and her eyes, according to Brigitte Hamanns book "Rudolf". And she was a maternal figure for him in a way. So the thoughts from IGrounds are right.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 10, 2010, 08:28:16 PM

True, but all that does not explain Mary Vetsera's presence............................also there are the letters found at Mayerling and even in the Hofburg that were written by Mary and Rudolf.... Can we dismiss that?

Imperial G, consider the following about those suicide letters.  

1)  Except for the letter to Stephanie, none of the others had ever been published, until the photographic plates were discovered around 1955 and authenticated for the letter to Szőgyény-Marich directing him to the desk in the Vienna.  Here's a copy of that letter and note that towards the bottom it says:  to Valerie, to my wife, to Baron Hirsch then Mitzi Casper.
(http://oi55.tinypic.com/120qofo.jpg)

However, several years before the discovery and "authentication" of the above letter, Carl Lonyay, the nephew and heir of Stephanie's 2nd husband, including all her papers, wrote that this same letter instead stated the letters would be found to Valerie, the Crown Princess and his mother.  Lonyay made the remark, ".....his subconscious mind reveals his true attitude towards his wife, whom he coldly calls "the crown princess," towards the empress who, at this moment, becomes his "mother", and towards his sister, to whom he refers very naturally, by her Christian name."

So here we have 2 different versions of the same suicide letter.  How could that be possible.  The first letter did not even mention a letter to Rudolf's mother!
 
2)  According to Judtmann, Prince Philipp of Coburg said,  "Rudolf shot himself with a hunting rifle.  What consolation would it have been to the All-Highest family in this tragic misfortune if it had been established that the heir to the throne had not died by his own hand?"  Obviously Philipp of Coburg believed there were worse things than suicide.
 
3)  Forgery was a widely practiced art back then.  If banknotes can be forged, why should not a prince's letters be forged as well and his handwriting imitated with deceptive accuracy if need be?   Rudolf's secretary even stated that Marie Vetsera showed up with a letter requesting her to do so, and Rudolf tossed the letter aside, saying that it looked like his handwriting, but he didn't write it.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 10, 2010, 11:56:09 PM
This picture doesn't look much like Rudolf, but then it doesn't look like a drawing or painting either so I'm not sure what to think about it?

(http://oi52.tinypic.com/2gv108y.jpg)

Besides the testimony of the Grand Duke of Tuscany, the other support for the glass in the brain theory include:

 -- The Italian Ambassador in Vienna, Count Constantin Nigra, who was at Mayerling before the bodies were removed, according to Franz Judtmann in "Mayerling: The Facts Behind the Legend, 1968".

 -- In a book published in 1898 called "Society recollections in Paris and Vienna, 1879-1904"  the author George Greville Moore claimed that the ADC of Archduke Ferdinand told him Rudolf was killed by a blow to the head from a champagne bottle.   I'm not sure who Archduke Ferdinand was unless it was the Emperor's nephew and younger brother of Franz Ferdinand?   This author also stated that a friend of the daughter of Bratfisch told him the daughter had told her it was a blow from a lantern that killed the crown prince.

--  In "The Secrets of the Hohenzollerns", 1914, the author who claimed to be part of Germany's secret service also said that Rudolf was killed by a champagne bottle.

Although Franz Judtmann seems quite good at gathering evidence, fortunately he doesn't spend a lot of time trying to interpret it in his book since the results can be rather funny.   For example, he valiantly tried to discredit all the witnesses for the glass in the brain, but with flimsy reasons, and perhaps realizing how lame he was sounding, yet still desperate to support the suicide theory, he came up with the final interpretation for the little problem of the champagne bottle............. ♪♫•*•♫♪ ....................Rudolf decided to kill himself by aiming his pistol through a champagne bottle!   Hahaha, I guess he thought Rudolf was just really into making a big splash!  ;>)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on October 11, 2010, 02:37:24 AM
It´s amazing how he looks like his mother!
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 11, 2010, 06:15:40 AM
its rudolph and its a picture. Im  pretty sure its from this same photoshoot

(http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8641/557149914big.jpg)

Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2010, 09:52:18 AM
Killed by a Champagne bottle ? I never heard that before.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 11, 2010, 10:09:30 AM
its rudolph and its a picture. Im  pretty sure its from this same photoshoot

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8641/557149914big.jpg



Thanks Katenka, it does look like the same photo shoot, but still he looks different in these -- but just look at that sweet face!   :-* :'(
Guessing from the hairline, he must have been 27 or 28 when they were taken?

Killed by a Champagne bottle? I never heard that before.

I'm convinced of it based on the testimony of the Grand Duke of Tuscany and the Italian Ambassador, even though it is not officially official.  Anyway, the official version is well-known to have not been concerned with telling the truth, i.e., the claim of heart failure etc., the denial of the presence of Mary Vetsera, the autopsy claiming gross brain anatomy abnormalities which is now known to be a myth for predicting mental disorders...............
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2010, 10:13:12 AM
Well...There were always many theories about his death. I do wonder if his parents knew about the real truth.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Rani on October 11, 2010, 10:21:10 AM
The Empress was self-centered, she didn´t thought why he did that, she thought why he did that to her!
The Emperor I guess didn´t know it either. This Iron ring at the court disguised many things from him.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2010, 10:26:32 AM
I see...That seems that is was possible that he was really assinated.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 11, 2010, 10:57:12 AM
The Empress was self-centered, she didn´t thought why he did that, she thought why he did that to her!
The Emperor I guess didn´t know it either. This Iron ring at the court disguised many things from him.


My guess is that a lot more was hidden from the Emperor than is commonly believed and a lot less hidden from the poor Empress than is commonly believed.

I see...That seems that is was possible that he was really assassinated.

Unfortunately, if he was killed by a champagne bottle, that tends to argue against either suicide or a political/professional assassination.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 11, 2010, 11:04:25 AM
Elisabeth always blamed herself for not being there for her son... And there were signs that something was going to happen, like Rudolf collapsing on christmas eve 1888, so that might be why Elisabeth felt guilty and blamed herself. Also, if Rudolf was assassinated and all that.... What about Mary Vetsera's presence? We must not forget that she was missing for over a day at the moment and that it was believed by her mother and Countess Larisch she was with Rudolf.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 11, 2010, 02:19:31 PM
I doubt if Rudolf was assassinated, and haven't forgotten about Mary, but remember the court did their best to hide the existence of Mary Vetsera.   The almighty high court would have ordered her to arise from the dead if possible.  Remember the bizarre and top secret method by which her body was removed from Mayerling?  But alas for the court, they could not force Mary to be forgotten since she was too hot of a news source and too many people knew about her and Rudolf.

But consider this -- how many other people died at Mayerling that night and the court was able to hide their deaths?  Has anybody else heard that one of the gamekeepers committed "suicide" that night?  What about Max and Otto, the servants mentioned in "The Secrets of the Hohenzollerns" by the German Secret Service agent where one of them was killed and the other seriously injured?  I've also read where several people disappeared that night -- supposedly moved to America never to be heard from again?  (http://www.imageshugger.com/images/xp41cmqy9tuauefarg32.gif)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 11, 2010, 04:34:11 PM
Too many mysteries I guess...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 11, 2010, 05:34:17 PM
Instead of too many mysteries..........think of it as enough clues to assemble a puzzle in the only way it will all fit together.  (http://www.imageshugger.com/images/qnj5tq4w7750b2ssxs1l.gif)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 12, 2010, 07:02:00 AM
What I did read was that in that period, the weeks after Rudolf died, many suicides took place... Several people who had known Rudolf commited suicided during the course of the next month.... It has always been my belief that there was something going on in Hungary and that something went wrong.... Whatever that may be, one never knows, but it is a site covered in most movies and books and I think it is possible.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 12, 2010, 02:14:23 PM
Yes I believe it did have something to do with Hungary.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 12, 2010, 02:52:06 PM
According to letters published by Szep's daughter, Rudolf was offered the kingship of Hungary in 1883.   He turned it down then, but for reasons other than treason since it wasn't considered such.  Archduke Albrecht sent him a letter explaining the pros and cons of the offer and how it probably wouldn't be in Rudolf's best interests.   The whole Hungary political slant could just be another smoke screen.   

There's a book "The Masque of Kings: A Play in Two Acts" by Maxwell Anderson that took this idea to the extreme. 
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 12, 2010, 03:00:45 PM
According to letters published by Szep's daughter, Rudolf was offered the kingship of Hungary in 1883.
Real kingship, i.e. being king of an independent Hungary, or just being vice-roy, like several Habsburgs had been before 1848?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 12, 2010, 08:14:34 PM

Real kingship, i.e. being king of an independent Hungary, or just being vice-roy, like several Habsburgs had been before 1848?

Фёдор Петрович , here's the passage in Szep's book from notes taken by Moritz Szeps following a meeting with Rudolf on Jan 30-1, 1883 at the Vienna Hofburg, midnight:

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/dccqjv9j50cszlz2gnc5.jpg)

(http://www.imageshugger.com/images/w0g4i1gmg96f4dlqf3x.jpg)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on October 12, 2010, 08:27:57 PM
Thank you, Pezzazz, very interesting that it was the Hungarian Prime Minister himself who was behind the plan.

Also, it was first now, when I looked into it, that I saw that Archduke Joseph August was the one who inherited the claim to the then nominal position of Palatin of Hungary after the death of the last actual vice-roy, Archduke Stefan in (what a poignant year, Hungary-wise:) 1867. But Joseph August wasn't officially made Palatin, was he?
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 13, 2010, 12:50:05 PM
Joseph August's father Joseph Karl was Palatine of Hungary though it was symbolic by that time.  I haven't seen anything about Joseph August having that title officially.

Here's an interesting sidelight from the author of the above book by Berta Szeps, daughter of Rudolf's friend/mentor for ~ 10 years, Moritz Szeps.   Szeps other daughter married the younger brother of Georges Clemenceau, French statesman, physician, journalist and Prime Minister of France.   Moritz also claimed to engineer a meeting between Rudolf and Clemenceau late one night in Rudolf's apartments at the Vienna Hofburg.  

Shortly after Rudolf's death, M Szeps, in his newspaper, made a thinly veiled accusation against the emperor as the one behind Rudolf's death.  

Soon after WWI, Empress Zita accused Clemenceau of being the one behind Crown Prince Rudolf's assassination.  (tit for tat?)  There was a copy of a letter by Clemenceau I saw somewhere and now I don't remember where but he wrote somewhere something along the lines of ~~ the only good archduke was a dead archduke.  

Shortly before the end of WWI, Emperor Charles I entered into secret peace negotiations with France via Zita's brother Prince Sixtus of Bourbon-Parma without the knowledge of allied Germany.  When news of this started to leak (via Clemenceau?), Charles I denied any knowledge until Clemenceau published letters signed by him.  So naturally there was plenty of bad blood between Zita and Clemenceau that could have been a motive for her giving expression to what might have been only a suspicion.  I've never seen any other indication that Clemenceau was involved in the death of Rudolf.

It seemed the above book by Berta Szeps was a little excessive in its support of the suicide theory.  

I'll have to have a search for that letter about royalty in general by Clemenceau.

(http://tinyurl.com/2929hu4)

Moritz Szeps
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 13, 2010, 06:04:16 PM
Maybe a new book on all the theories ?  :D
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 13, 2010, 08:14:59 PM
Aah yes!  The Riddle of Mayerling Unraveled on the Legendary Alexander Palace Time Machine Forum.   (http://i52.tinypic.com/2u59xz6_th.gif)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 13, 2010, 08:30:45 PM
Why not...so many twist and turns and no definite DNA results...very much like JFK & Diana cases...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on October 14, 2010, 07:23:01 AM
Why not...so many twist and turns and no definite DNA results...very much like JFK & Diana cases...

Please explain the link between JFK and Princess Diana's death and the 'saga' of Mayerling?? The only link I see is that they are all dead.......
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Robert_Hall on October 14, 2010, 09:11:46 AM
There is none, aor,. That was just another fantasy statement from the author of the post, IMO.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: aor on October 14, 2010, 09:18:01 AM
There is none, aor,. That was just another fantasy statement from the author of the post, IMO.
I just thought I would be polite and ask...... ;)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Imperial_Grounds on October 14, 2010, 09:22:03 AM
Well, I can see one more link.... It is said from all 'cases' that the truth is not what the official statements say.... However, as I have stated many times, as long as there is no definite answere I do believe in the suicide-theory(that it was out of love and such is out of the question, I think, but not that the suicide happened. Rudolf was, after all, depressed and had a long term fascination with death), as for Diana and JFK.... I don't believe in political assassination, especially not when it comes to Diana's death, since such a thing would be hard to achieve.... Especially in a car crash. But we're losing track here.... So many mysteries, so little answers.... Maybe that is why people keep bringing up all kinds of possible explanations. Mayerling certainly has enough theories to be solved: from an aborted pregnancy gone wrong up to a political assassination.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 14, 2010, 09:39:29 AM
It is similar to the deaths of Diana and JFK in that they were all ultra famous political/popular/charismatic people who were killed under mysterious circumstances.  History does have a way of repeating itself.   The big difference with Rudolf though is it has been over 120 years since he died.  Nobody alive then, or even a first order friend or relative is still alive, so the truth about Mayerling should hurt no one now -- unless some glorious suicide is a point of national pride for Austria which I doubt?

The above remarks made me think of Elvis sightings, and then I remembered a part in the "He Did Not Die at Mayerling" book where the author told as a small boy where he went to some event in the US (World's Fair?) with his father Rudolf, Johann Orth and Franz Ferdinand.  They were all having a great time until a crowd recognized Franz Ferdinand and they had to make a quick escape.   Naturally, I wondered did no one recognize the Crown Prince Rudolf since this would have been only a few years after his supposed death?   I know plastic surgery was only in the practice stages at that time, or was Rudolf merely wearing one of those spectacles with a clown nose attached?  The point I'm trying to make is that in all the years Rudolf was suppose to be in America after Mayerling, there was never one sighting.............never one photo even supplied by the author writing a book about his father and the one photo he did supply was one of Franz Ferdinand instead.   (http://oi51.tinypic.com/aep7dd.jpg)

However, it also still seems the book was written with some specific and legitimate purpose in mind and claiming to be the son of Rudolf was somewhat incidental.  Strangely enough the book did have many real photos of Wilhelm II and his family and his brother Prince Henry who the author claimed to have met and was favorably impressed.  The book was written in 1937 soon before Anschluss Österreichs, the annexation of Austria into Nazi Germany in 1938 of which the author was in favor of happening.  By a stretch of my ever inventive mind, maybe the book was written with the intent to enable the Austrians to think Rudolf would have favored a union of Germany and Austria -- but of course that could not have been further from the truth.

Anyway when I saw the 2nd photo of Rudolf after his autopsy I knew it was him.  Katenka said it looked like a painting, but it was just a poor photo coupled with my poor photography made it seem even more so, but it was him there is no question in my mind.  I had hoped he had somehow escaped to America, but the probability is too low to be considered seriously.  
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 14, 2010, 09:44:13 AM
Im gonna look for a larger version of that image because it does look like a post mortem portrait. I hope its a picture cause i ve just seen two of Rudolph and both of them with that bandage in his head
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 14, 2010, 11:42:35 AM
Thanks Pezzazz ! I totally agree with you that in both cases (Diana & JFK), people are not satisified with the official explaination (there is also no cut & dry DNA results to counter conspiracy theories-which is this case has more merit being a politically motivated act). A book would be nice to put it all into perspective. Would love to read "He did not die in Myerling", was it available in English ? Sounds like a gripping read...in the manner of "The Da Vinci code"...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Pezzazz on October 14, 2010, 01:36:10 PM
Yes Eric, it is written in English.  Remember he was raised in the US.

I just thought of another very good reason this book might have been written.  Not only was Pachmann waiting in the wings claiming to be the real legitimate heir as the Habsburg head of house and whatever fortune there was but there was also another son born after Rudolf died I think and detailed in Listowel's book.

She reported how a famous American Civil War General, James Longstreet, represented the US at Rudolf's and Stephanie's wedding and remained on friendly terms with Rudolf and was then hired by the emperor to track down Rudolf's son after the Mayerling tragedy.  General Longstreet was joined in his efforts by another civil war general -- Cassius Marcellus Clay -- who was appointed by Abraham Lincoln to the Russian court where he remained for 8 years and became close friends of the Czar and through that connection became involved with Rudolf and his American son.  Much of this information came from the State Historical Society of Missouri.  This 3rd son was the child of an illegitimate daugher of the Russian Czar. 

So here we have the supposed first son, Deventer, born in 1877 from a legal Catholic marriage between his mother of minor nobility and Crown Prince Rudolf.  That certainly trumps any claims made by anyone else, and best of all, Deventer is overflowing with praise for the late Emperor Karl and his entire family.
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 14, 2010, 02:49:07 PM
I will try to locate this book. Sounds fun ! Yes if it could be proven that Rudolf married in a Catholic marriage that is...
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Yelena Aleksandrovna on October 14, 2010, 02:58:34 PM
Several photos of Rudolph, his family and mistresses
Click here!! (http://www.juicypool.com/kronprinzrudolf/)
and...
Baroness Vetsera (http://www.vetsera.at/)
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: THERRY on October 15, 2010, 01:33:59 AM
Interesting Thank You
Title: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
Post by: Svetabel on October 15, 2010, 01:45:30 AM
45 pages are enough I think. Part II is starting.