Alexander Palace Forum

Books and Films about the Romanovs and Imperial Russia => Books about the Romanovs and Imperial Russia => Topic started by: Eurohistory on May 15, 2011, 03:59:50 PM

Title: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on May 15, 2011, 03:59:50 PM
Eurohistory brings you Ilana Miller's amazing story of Victoria, Elisabeth, Irene and Alix of Hesse and by Rhine, Queen Victoria's Hessian granddaughters, The Four Graces. This excellent book covers the lifespan of these four very tragic sisters. Ms. Miller did extensive research to bring us closer to the four sisters of Hesse. The thrilling narrative is certain to keep the reader grasped as the lives of these women unfold. Handsomely illustrated with unique photos of the Hessian sisters and their descendants, this hardbound book promises to become a "must-read" for anyone interested in European royal history and the Russian Imperial Family. The book also includes several family trees helping the reader place the extensive cast of characters in historical perspective, as well as a glossy photo section with close to 100 unique images of the protagonists and their extended web of royal and imperial relations!

Ilana Miller's The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Hessian Granddaughters is now listed on Amazon.com as well as at eurohistory.com

http://www.amazon.com/Graces-Queen-Victorias-Hessian-Granddaughters/dp/097719616X/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_1 (http://www.amazon.com/Graces-Queen-Victorias-Hessian-Granddaughters/dp/097719616X/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_1)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/arturobeeche/4GracesAmazon.jpg)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 17, 2011, 06:58:40 PM
Yeah! Speaking for the many friends of Ilana Miller, we are all very excited to see her eagerly anticipated work finally be published! congrats to Arturo and Ilana!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on May 18, 2011, 09:13:05 AM
My copy has been shipped and is on its way.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on May 18, 2011, 02:26:13 PM
I find it a pity that it took so long publishing a book!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 18, 2011, 08:23:24 PM
It would be a pity if it were never published, but it is and it looks gorgeous.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: historyfan on May 18, 2011, 08:47:26 PM
Congratulations!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alexander1917 on May 19, 2011, 01:54:35 PM
and the vanhoogstratten is again postponed - so may I should try the amazon.com site
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on May 19, 2011, 03:28:58 PM
The site of Van Hoogstraten is postproned because they are told SO MANY TIMES, that this book comes out, so many promises, that they have too...
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alexander1917 on May 19, 2011, 04:33:56 PM
you mean the same procedure as every year lol.. yes good explanation - I think they order in the us - and delivery time and so..
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on May 20, 2011, 10:26:24 AM
I ordered mine through Amazon and it shipped the next day. Haven't gotten it yet (but hopefully today!) but it's on its way at least.  :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 20, 2011, 10:59:43 AM
Yes, GD Ella, we physically took your book to the post office and it has been shipped.  Case closed, the book is here, it does exist in the flesh.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 21, 2011, 01:28:45 AM
And I think it's time to celebrate the book coming out, to read the book and post some reviews. Personally, I could do without the snarky remarks.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Laura Mabee on May 21, 2011, 01:54:24 AM
Looking forward to reading all you hard work and research!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 21, 2011, 11:09:31 AM
Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: philcp on May 21, 2011, 01:03:17 PM
I got my autographed copy of the Four Graces yesterday! It is a beautifully done book! Once again Arturo has outdone himself! I can't wait to start reading it!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Vecchiolarry on May 21, 2011, 08:59:20 PM
Hi,

Well, it's so nice to see 3 of my California friends all on the same thread....  And to think, I've seen all three in the past 2 weeks...
Just like old home week for me!

No snarky remarks from me this time, Lisa...  I'm all out of them from using so many in LA!!!  Ha, ha.......

Larry
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on May 22, 2011, 08:49:37 AM
I got my autographed copy of Ilana's book yesterday. I took a quick look and it is beautifully done in hard back no less!

My only thought so far is that the type font is very small.  Hard for those of us with "short arm syndrome"  and the need for reading glasses.

I look forward to sitting down with it and soon!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 22, 2011, 10:42:22 AM
I know what you mean, Alixz. The issue was to keep the expense of the book down and as you can see, it costs the same as Eurohistory paperbacks.  If the font had been bigger, there would have been many more pages.  I would have liked that as well, but well understand the situation. Yes, get out those reading glasses, I have them too!!

Larry... :)!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on May 22, 2011, 06:04:48 PM
I am wondering how much material this book has on Alexandra and her sister's childhood and teenage years as Hessian princesses.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on May 22, 2011, 07:41:07 PM
Congrats Ilana!!! Alix has always been an interesting subject, but *most* of her biographies have focused mostly on after she has been crowned Czarina-and hardly ever tells about her sisters (besides Ella of course). It sounds like a great book and again, congrats!!!!!!(http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://hobbitluvr.webs.com/photos/The52520Romanovs/OTMA1914.jpg&imgrefurl)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 23, 2011, 10:01:53 AM
Thanks so much! XO
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on May 23, 2011, 05:02:51 PM
Eurohistory brings you Ilana Miller's amazing story of Victoria, Elisabeth, Irene and Alix of Hesse and by Rhine, Queen Victoria's Hessian granddaughters, The Four Graces. This excellent book covers the lifespan of these four very tragic sisters.

I really don't know much about Victoria or Irene. Did their lives end tragically too, like Elisabeth's and Alix's, or did they die of natural causes?
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alexander1917 on May 23, 2011, 06:37:56 PM
Eurohistory brings you Ilana Miller's amazing story of Victoria, Elisabeth, Irene and Alix of Hesse and by Rhine, Queen Victoria's Hessian granddaughters, The Four Graces. This excellent book covers the lifespan of these four very tragic sisters.

I really don't know much about Victoria or Irene. Did their lives end tragically too, like Elisabeth's and Alix's, or did they die of natural causes?

without reread google sourches - no.. I can't recall a German aristocrate killed by the masses or people. Victoria attended the wed of HM and I think the christening of Charles, PoW
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on May 23, 2011, 11:14:15 PM
My great-grandparents and Grandparents met Irene when she visited Costa Rica in the 1930s.

Our family had taken Prince Sigismund and Princess Charlotte under our wing. This friendship continue to their son Prince Alfred, until he fell under the spell of a nasty Croatian man whom we all cautioned him against. Now none of us is allowed to come near Alfredo.

Alfred came to visit me in San Francisco in 2000 and while here I introduced him to Their Romanian Majesties, Princess Margarita and her husband. They had never met before, even though Alfredo, King Michael and Princess Margarita were all descendants of Queen Victoria.

Just before Alfredo abandoned all his friendships, he gifted me part of his father's book collection and some lovely photos. I am still the one paying for the maintenance of Prince Sigismund and Princess Charlotte's grave and will continue to do so until I die...and beyond.

This book, suffice to say, has a very special meaning for me.

Arturo Beιche

Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 24, 2011, 10:04:19 AM
...and I remember well meeting the Prince.  An interesting conference that year.

Both Victoria and Irene died of old age pretty much...does that spoil the ending?? :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on May 24, 2011, 10:58:27 AM
hello everyone, Ms. Ilana Millers' book: the Four Graces, is now also available through Van Hoogstraten: www.hoogstraten.nl
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on May 24, 2011, 01:22:36 PM
About half way through and needing those reading glasses.

I do love the picture section.  It is glossy and well done.  I am so glad it is in hard cover and not another paperback!

By now, I am usually talking about typos and other errors, but so far only a few and nothing to distract from the overall presentation and digestion on the material.

Brava, Ilana.  Bravo, Arturo!

This was worth waiting for.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 24, 2011, 02:50:45 PM
Oh, hooray Alixz!!!!  Art and I really put forth so much effort looking for mistakes and typos, I re-read about 5 times and he re-read 6 or more!  It's just not possible to find everything, but I'm glad we seem to have done a creditable job.  I'm relieved as I did worry... you just never know.

Sorry about the reading glasses :):)!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on May 24, 2011, 03:41:35 PM
My great-grandparents and Grandparents met Irene when she visited Costa Rica in the 1930s.

Amazing, Arturo!!

Both Victoria and Irene died of old age pretty much...does that spoil the ending?? :)

Not at all, Ilana. Thanks for the info!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 25, 2011, 11:03:10 AM
I continue to wait for your impressions.  I hope you learn something new from this book.  There are a lot of letters and other primary sources as I went to Windsor, Darmstadt (amazing place!!), Southampton and Broadlands, so I'm hoping there will be something of interest in this book even for the most seasoned royal historian!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: VickyandAlice on May 25, 2011, 02:19:38 PM
Congrats, Illana.  I know this has been a long time coming for you!

Kara Smith
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: LisaDavidson on May 26, 2011, 01:09:30 AM
I just got my copy - very excited to read it!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on May 26, 2011, 09:02:29 AM
Darn those "Victorian" descendants for naming everyone either Victoria or Alice or Louise or Ludwig (Lewis) or Edward or Leopold and, of course Albert, and then marrying others who had the same names!  Then there were all the Marie's that came with Marie Alexandrovna (Coburg).  And those Georges !!

Queen Victoria may have been able to keep them all straight and I am sure that their immediate families did, too.  But without the "nicknames" or Ilana's great "*" and footnotes - well, my head would be swimming!

Actually by the end, I had made up a list of some of those descendants that I now want to look into further.

Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 26, 2011, 10:26:55 AM
Oh, do tell... who have I interested you in further...???
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 26, 2011, 01:28:38 PM
Oops... I meant "in whom" have I interested you... Grammar, gotta love it!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on May 28, 2011, 10:41:46 AM
LOL.

Actually, I would like to know more about Irene and Henry and their own battle with the hemophilia of their sons.

Also Edwina, Dickie's, wife.  She seems to have been a paragon of virtue and good will and the ultimate daughter in law.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 28, 2011, 11:11:20 AM
There was little I could get on Irene and Henry.  Irene, it appears, was strong enough to resist the influence of "Berlin" on her family.  She in many ways, lived a private life as VMH did.  There wasn't much about the hemophilia except that their son died at a very young age... I wonder what would have happened if Alexei died at the age of 2 or 3... if that might have changed things.

Also, Edwina was a wonderful daughter-in-law but I'd hardly call her a paragon of virtue!  Her own daughter told me she was "naughty"!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on May 28, 2011, 08:56:19 PM
I always wished that my great-grandfather had told me more about meeting Irene when she came to Costa Rica. He died when I was nearly 18, but he did not much enjoy dwelling with the past. He was always very forward looking and paid little attention to historical things.

I have many memories of my own childhood with Prince Sigismund and Princess Charlotte...but these are hardly mentioning in a book, other than I got my inspiration for royal studies from listening to his stories. Prince Sigismund used to loan me books. The first copy of Hessian Tapestry that i ever read belonged to him.

Always felt them to be an anachronism...him wearing round-rimmed glasses and a three-piece suit, while she wore gloves, ankle-high, heeled booties with her dresses and usually donned a hat...all in the sometimes suffocating temperatures of the lowlands of Costa Rica.

I visit their grave on every one of my trips to visit my family. It is sort of a personal pilgrimage for me.

Arturo Beιche
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 29, 2011, 11:14:05 AM
Sort of reminds me of how I concluded the book...
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on May 30, 2011, 11:21:58 AM
Just one thing I want to make sure that everyone knows... this is a hard-cover book, NOT a paperback!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on May 30, 2011, 10:37:33 PM
Got my copy and I'm enjoying very much! Thank you!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Paola on May 31, 2011, 04:05:24 AM

Just got my copy today and look very much forward to start reading it!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on June 01, 2011, 06:13:18 AM
In 1,5 week ago to visit The Hague, going to Van Hoogstraten, to pick up this book personally. I have great expectations about this book and hope that ms Miller has used to best sources and has not relied upon the sources used in books from other writers. For example I expect from Ms Miller, that she went to the Windsor and Darmstadt archives for example. (I know that she has visited some castles in 2004 or some time before) And has used original documents and has put not her own opinion about these sisters in her book and only has used historical facts. She had many years time to check up the materials she has used.

And indeed Ms Miller, it would be a pity if it was not published at all, but I hope, truly hope, that your work is far way better, then the crap that some other writers and even members of this board, has published in the last years. Never using the original documents, never been in archives such as the one in Darmstadt or the GARF. With the result that too many mistakes appear in certain books and with the effect that readers are now convinced that some thing really happened and take what is written as historical facts.

For example the writer of a biography of the Empress Alexandra, in which, the writer, claims that Princess Alix was at the wedding of George and Mary of Teck, and had danced with Nicky. While if the writer had double checked, "his source" would have know, that the Princess Alix was not at this wedding, but spend a lovely time at the home of Princess Marie of Erbach-Schφnberg. (The last time I mentioned this writer, who also happened to have a forumboard, I was banned on that board forever".


So I hope that Ms. Millers' book has written her book in perfection.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on June 01, 2011, 09:39:08 AM
Teddy,  I have already finished Ms. Miller's book and I think you will be pleased.

As you know and so do a lot of the posters here, I am always complaining about books with typographical errors and historical errors.  This book has very few typos (not enough to even mention) and, as far as I could see, the history is well researched and well written.  Ms. Miller is the expert, not me.

As I mentioned earlier, this book made me want to investigate some of its peripheral figures more closely.

I had more questions about Irene and Heinrich and also in Ernst Ludwig's part in the Anna Anderson debacle.  I like books that make me want to look for more.



Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 01, 2011, 11:06:02 AM
For example the writer of a biography of the Empress Alexandra, in which, the writer, claims that Princess Alix was at the wedding of George and Mary of Teck, and had danced with Nicky. While if the writer had double checked, "his source" would have know, that the Princess Alix was not at this wedding, but spend a lovely time at the home of Princess Marie of Erbach-Schφnberg. (The last time I mentioned this writer, who also happened to have a forumboard, I was banned on that board forever".

Right as usual Teddy, there is no excuse for errors going into print, I find it disgraceful.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on June 01, 2011, 11:21:58 AM
Yes, GD Ella, we physically took your book to the post office and it has been shipped.  Case closed, the book is here, it does exist in the flesh.

I actually had my prayers answered and it arrived the day before I left for a week in NYC. I'm really enjoying it.  :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on June 01, 2011, 11:26:26 AM
I continue to wait for your impressions.  I hope you learn something new from this book.  There are a lot of letters and other primary sources as I went to Windsor, Darmstadt (amazing place!!), Southampton and Broadlands, so I'm hoping there will be something of interest in this book even for the most seasoned royal historian!!

Because of my trip I haven't had as much time to devote to it as I'd like but I'm already finding out a good bit of new information. I LOVE the quotes from letters to/from Victoria and also Irene (especially as you've mentioned how scarce they are). Hardly are these women represented in their own words. Also, on a side note, I am further loving the photos. I've been somewhat disappointed lately in the lack of rare photos in some books. When I have managed to buy them off of ebay or they've been on this forum or others for years they aren't that rare! LOL  This book however has a bunch of new goodies--some totally new, others different poses from more familiar sittings. A further treat!  :) :-*
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 01, 2011, 11:32:56 AM
Thanks for your kind words Alixz!!

Teddy no one writes to perfection... there are always some errors either editorially or factually.  As seen in the Nicholas & Alexandra thread, even Robert Massie made mistakes.  Hopefully, if there is a second edition to this book, we can correct any mistakes that occur.

I hope this book will meet your expectations.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Forum Admin on June 02, 2011, 12:10:43 PM
Posts that were in violation of Forum rules have been removed.  I want to remind users that there is a difference between discussing a book's CONTENT and attacking the Author personally. I will tell you from personal experience, that Ilana Miller was utterly devoted to this project and lived and breathed the book for a very long time.  This work is as good a product as she could possibly make it, and regardless of your opinion of the content, you will show Ms Miller the utmost respect and courtesy in the Forum.  I wish to be notified IMMEDIATELY if this directive is not heeded, and I ask Mods to copy and forward me any offending posts before deleting them so that I may have a record of their content to determine punishment accordingly.

If you have a question prior to posting, please feel free to contact me or a Mod before you put it out there for guidelines.

FA
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 02, 2011, 03:41:09 PM
I continue to wait for your impressions.  I hope you learn something new from this book.  There are a lot of letters and other primary sources as I went to Windsor, Darmstadt (amazing place!!), Southampton and Broadlands, so I'm hoping there will be something of interest in this book even for the most seasoned royal historian!!

Because of my trip I haven't had as much time to devote to it as I'd like but I'm already finding out a good bit of new information. I LOVE the quotes from letters to/from Victoria and also Irene (especially as you've mentioned how scarce they are). Hardly are these women represented in their own words. Also, on a side note, I am further loving the photos. I've been somewhat disappointed lately in the lack of rare photos in some books. When I have managed to buy them off of ebay or they've been on this forum or others for years they aren't that rare! LOL  This book however has a bunch of new goodies--some totally new, others different poses from more familiar sittings. A further treat!  :) :-*

One of the toughest decisions we faced was choosing the images to include in the book. Of course, there is always the issue of production costs. Yet, Ms. Miller's book has close to 100 images, rare for a history book these days.

However, the initial selection was about 600 images. These were sorted and discussed by a group of royalty enthusiasts whose opinion I value, as well as the author. That number was then brought down to 300...sifting through these was even harder to do. Then we settled on about 50 images, but I felt it was not enough to feature as many people as the book mentioned. I negotiated some changes with the printing venue, we agreed...the number of images was elevated. Still the last night before the book went to print, I made some last minute changes to the photo section...it was grueling...but once I showed the final selection to Ms. Miller, as well as some pother experts in the UK and around the USA, I was very happy with their reaction.

Obviously, paying for use of these many images would have cost a fortune. But since all the original images came from the Eurohistory Royal Photo Archive, which I own, there was no cost for the use of these. In the past I have given access to other authors and either allowed them to use images for free or a small token payment. none of the books published by us have ever had to resort to buying images from anyone else, which allowed me, for example, to use nearly 300 images in The Gotha – Still A Continental Royal Family, Volume 1. I suppose this is the ultimate benefit of having spent 20 years putting this archive together. Ms. Miller's book, excellent in content, also benefited greatly from full access to the archive.

I encouraged Ms Miller to not give up on her book. I knew it would be a risk, as all these endeavours are, but I also knew how diligently she had researched and written. Hers was a labor of love, one that I was honored to help bring to life.

Kudos to Ilana Miller...now get busy with a new book project!

Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 02, 2011, 09:46:52 PM
reading and enjoying this book greatly.... love the quoted letters ect. I ran into a fascinating  quote of Princess Alice's as  reported  by  the Queen's secretary, Sir Henry Ponsonby

 "I dare say Royalty is nonsense and it may be better if it is swept away . But as long as it exists, we must have certain rules to guide us "

Princess Alice
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 03, 2011, 10:52:23 AM
Art encouraged me to included complete quotes, which I might not have normally done if the book were less specialized. However, I glad you are pleased with them.

VMH was a bit of a rebel and quite a thinker!  She got a lot of that from her mother.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on June 04, 2011, 04:38:23 AM
Dear Ilana, I hope that my former post, was not felt by you as an attack against your book. As you know, I have this book for years on my Christmas wishlist. But I'm critical. And of course nobody writes in perfection.

But I hope you have the opinion that historians (and you are a historian) have the duty to tell the truth and only the truth, by checking their sources. Next week, I get my copy of your book personally at van Hoogstraten. And when I'm finished I let you know, what I personally think about your book. Teddy
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Kalafrana on June 04, 2011, 05:36:08 AM
I'm planning to order the book when my life is a bit less hectic (I've spent the last month marking exams and so have a long list of essential but non-urgent matters to deal with - getting my hair cut, going to the dentist, and buying books!)

I'm particularly interested in reading more about Irene, who seems to have been the sister most neglected by biographers. How did she and Heinrich cope with having not one but two haemophiliac sons?

Ann
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on June 04, 2011, 11:48:32 AM
How did she and Heinrich cope with having not one but two haemophiliac sons?

Irene had haemophic sons, too? I knew the gene came from Queen Victoria, but I have one question - obviously Alix had the gene, but did her 3 sisters also have the gene?

PS. Before I joined this forum, I had only been interested in OTMA, but now, I'm just as interested in Victoria, Irene, Ella and Alix (because of the Four Graces!) Amazing how you can find other interests when an author writes a good book!!  :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 04, 2011, 03:58:40 PM
It's interesting to note that of the four members of OTMA , only sister one was a carrier ( the sister found with Alexis)...but at least two out of four of the four graces were carriers. Irene it seems spent such a quite life, it's not easy to learn about her....I'm just reading where she was at hand for her father in law's tragic death...and it seems though this ordeal and witnessing her  mother in law's courage  ,Irene drew close  Empress Victoria...( Vicky) ....How and when  Irene  formed the determination to marry Henry ...because  they were first cousins, the match was not popular at first) ...would be interesting to learn. She seems like someone who not would not make waves normally! lol! I find it remarkable how resilient  family ties  are  even though fate puts family on other sides during war...and I'm referring to the earlier  unification of Germany as well as WW1. I guess that is part of the job
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on June 04, 2011, 07:17:32 PM
That is very interesting! I had no idea. Wow!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on June 05, 2011, 12:55:37 AM
Princess Victoria's daughter Victoria Alice (the mother of Prince Philip) was deaf from birth.  I have wondered if this had anything to do with various illnesses that Victoria had or if the deafness was passed through Louis.

Princess Irene had two hemophiliac sons.  One died young and the other Toddy lived to a fair age (without the intervention of a Rasputin like figure).

Princess Ella, of course had no children, but who knows if she would have also been a carrier.  Maybe that is why she and Serge had no children even though she wanted them.  He might have been afraid of the illness.

And of course, Princess Alix was a carrier and had Alexei.

I did not know that the sister found with Alexei was determined to have been a carrier.  If she was Marie, that was just too sad as Marie was the daughter who wanted a big family.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 05, 2011, 01:26:25 AM
I did not know that the sister found with Alexei was determined to have been a carrier.  If she was Marie, that was just too sad as Marie was the daughter who wanted a big family.
Exactly Alixz . None of the girls wanted children the way Marie did . But I can't see Marie being  stopped in this pursuit  by the chance she was a carrier. It was a gamble for each of the girls, but had she lived,  Marie would have certainly  married and started a family imo. But the capriciousness  of the disease! Princess Alice was a carrier, yet  she had a healthy son as well as a hemophiliac one. One never knew what would happen in this gamble.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 05, 2011, 01:55:01 AM
CORRECTION!!!
I had and posted  the wrong infomation...one of OTMA was indeed a  carrier....however as  Sarushka posted on another thread
Quote
Actually, it was the youngest set of female remains in the original (1991) grave that carried the gene for Type B hemophilia.
So there you have it. Many, inculding, myself believe that was Marie. Sorry for posting the wrong infomation!
 
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on June 05, 2011, 09:20:00 AM
It depends on who you ask about the remains.

The Russians thought that the youngest daughter in the original grave was Anastasia and the Americans thought it was Marie.

I always thought that Russians wanted the youngest in the original grave to be Anastasia to quiet any more rumors about her escaping.  That was before the second set of remains were found.  Now that they all have been, it doesn't matter who was found where as they are all accounted for.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 05, 2011, 05:37:37 PM
I always thought that Russians wanted the youngest in the original grave to be Anastasia to quiet any more rumors about her escaping.
I agree with that
Quote
That was before the second set of remains were found.  Now that they all have been, it doesn't matter who was found where as they are all accounted for.
I agree with that as well . I always say "Alexis and his sister were found " that covers it for me. I just want to see them all together someday, that's all they wanted. It seems as a last cruelty  they were parted . But at least they have all been found....that's a very great deal


Back to topic!!

I'm at the part where Queen Victoria is planning to marry Ernie to Ducky...the amazing thing about the book, it gives a sense of  suspense
even when one knows the out come! It has the urgency of something happening now...remarkable!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 06, 2011, 03:36:38 PM
My feelingfs exactly...that's why I have supported Ilana's endeavors so very muchl!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 08, 2011, 09:51:53 AM
A nice review of Ilana Miller's book, The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Hessian Granddaughters.

http://erhj.blogspot.com/2011/06/nice-review-of-ilana-millers-four.html (http://erhj.blogspot.com/2011/06/nice-review-of-ilana-millers-four.html)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 08, 2011, 10:14:24 AM
My hands were shaking when I typed over to see Marlene's review.  She is after all very critical (as well she should be) and extremely knowledgeable. I'm not only relieved, but extremely gratified.  WOW!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Laura Mabee on June 08, 2011, 12:18:02 PM
Wonderful review for a fantastic book!
Thank you for all your hard work Ilana, I know we all are going to enjoy reading your work!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 08, 2011, 04:57:07 PM
Thanks, Laura!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ena on June 08, 2011, 05:06:36 PM
My hands were shaking when I typed over to see Marlene's review.  She is after all very critical (as well she should be) and extremely knowledgeable. I'm not only relieved, but extremely gratified.  WOW!
I ordered your book today.  Can't wait to read it. :-)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 09, 2011, 11:17:01 AM
Well-known royal biographer Coryne Hall reviews Ilana Miller's The Four Graces.

http://erhj.blogspot.com/2011/06/coryne-hall-reviews-ilana-millers-four.html (http://erhj.blogspot.com/2011/06/coryne-hall-reviews-ilana-millers-four.html)

(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h49/arturobeeche/4GracesAmazon.jpg)

Enjoy!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 09, 2011, 02:57:44 PM
Another very kind review.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Marie Valerie on June 10, 2011, 10:22:12 AM
Is there any chance for me to get this book?

I don't own any credit card and Amazon.de don't have it either.

Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on June 10, 2011, 12:16:08 PM
Dear Marie_Valerie,

Can't you get this book through Van Hoogstraten?

Teddy
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 11, 2011, 11:05:33 AM
I know that you can get it van Hoogstratten's bookstore in the Hague and at Galigliani's (I'm sorry if I spelled that incorrectly) in Paris.  It's early days yet, we hope to get it on more shelves, but if not it is available also through eurohistory.com who does deal with Europe all the time!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 11, 2011, 02:17:49 PM
Just finished and I have to say it's a must have for anyone even remotely interested in royal history or a great read ...I can't prasie it enough...really moved beyond words .... by the story of the Four Graces and your handling of it. Thank you. 
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 11, 2011, 11:32:43 PM
Is there any chance for me to get this book?

I don't own any credit card and Amazon.de don't have it either.



If you email me directly at books@eurohistory.com, I can sort things out with you so you can purchase a copy.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Regards, Arturo Beιche
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 12, 2011, 12:10:46 AM
Thank you BlessOTMA, I am moved by your words...and by how this book has been received.  It's a dream!!! XO
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on June 13, 2011, 02:19:02 AM
Dear Ilana,

I have got your book since Saturday, through van Hoogstraten. But before I start to read it I have a question. Can you rank the 4 Graces for yourself. I want to know which one you like the most and then count down. For example 1 VMH, 2 Irene, 3 Alicky, 4 Ella.

But I must admit my first thoughts about your book is good. Certainly it is good that you talked mr. Beeche over, to use a hardcover.

Teddy
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 13, 2011, 10:40:53 AM
The ones I like most.  It will probably be obvious from reading the book, but of course, VMH my favorite...Ella next, I suppose, Irene and Alix last.

Read the book and then we'll see what you think.

Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 13, 2011, 11:12:17 AM
Dear Ilana,

I have got your book since Saturday, through van Hoogstraten. But before I start to read it I have a question. Can you rank the 4 Graces for yourself. I want to know which one you like the most and then count down. For example 1 VMH, 2 Irene, 3 Alicky, 4 Ella.

But I must admit my first thoughts about your book is good. Certainly it is good that you talked mr. Beeche over, to use a hardcover.

Teddy

Ilana did not talk me "over" anything about hardbound...from the beginning it was decided that the book would be the first in a long list of new hardbound books done by Eurohistory. Luckily, I found a printing company that can do them at a reasonable cost.

What some buyers don't realize is how much investment a book takes, not just the author's efforts and cost of research, but also the production and printing. The royalty market is shrinking; has been for some time. Books like Ilana's or my The Gotha, Gilded Prism, My Fifty Years, The Grand Dukes, are shunned by major publishers. When a major book publisher orders 100,000 copies the cost per unit is quite different than when a small publisher orders 1,000-2,000 copies of a book. It is simple economics of volume.

Arturo Beιche
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on June 13, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
Maybe Ilana did not talked you over to use a hardcover for her book. But still its a great PLUS, that this book has a hardcover and that we can expect more of your books with a hardcover instead with a softcover. By the way, when can we expect you second volume about the Gotha and Grand Dukes?

And I know that the Royalty market is shrinking. Personally, I have luckily Van Hoogstraten in my country. But there are people with no credit or Visacard who can order through you or at Van Hoogstraten in the Hague or that bookshop in Paris. Maybe, and that is just an idea, that you can think about these group of people, how they can still order and pay, without using a credit or visacard.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 13, 2011, 05:20:06 PM
There are many ways people can do so. I'm quite sure that if anyone finds themselves in that predicament, they can think of going to the post office and purchasing a post cheque or sending cash in a registered letter.  Paypal is also an option.

It is not unsurprising for us to receive letters with book orders containing postal cheques, Euros and dollars, along with a list of books people want.

Again...Where their is a will, there is a way.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alexander1917 on June 13, 2011, 05:35:00 PM
my loooooooooong awaited copy arrived some days ago via amazon (eurohistory and also signed!!! ) I just started it, and it have got some new details for me...
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 13, 2011, 05:38:03 PM
Glad to hear about it Alexander 1917.

I'm incredibly grateful that Art did this book in hardback...esp. since Marlene seems to think it's essential to most any Royalty Book Collection.  (Sorry had to brag.)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 13, 2011, 06:20:07 PM
The ones I like most.  It will probably be obvious from reading the book, but of course, VMH my favorite...Ella next, I suppose, Irene and Alix last.
Read the book and then we'll see what you think.

I read the book and I would list your favorites among the sisters as such. When I first read  that the the focus was Victoria, I was a bit disappointed...what about the others? But when one reads the book , it becomes so clear why this was done. Victoria was the hub in life, it's well she is the focus in history. Your affection for VMH is palatable, but  you are very fair to all imo . I really knew very little about  the sisters and now see how important knowing  about them and their parents  is to any Romanov enthusiast...but also the Four Graces were at such a cross road of history, anyone interested in the story of their times  generally needs to read your book  imo and periodically, reread it...the richness of this saga cannot be absorbed in one reading . Plus it's a page turner!  ...also I'll say I'm guessing  one has to watch Queen Victoria like a hawk when writing about her...she can take over a book if one isn't careful! lol!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 13, 2011, 09:23:30 PM
You are correct about the saga's wealth...I have read The Four Graces a total of seven times in the last 3 years. Having just worked on it, now it will rest for a while before I go back to reading it, yet again, in a few months.

I like re-reading "royalty classics." Queen Mary, Hessian Tapestry and a few others come to mind in my definition of that accolade. I have always enjoyed rereading them as every time I do (years apart) some new fact is found or a new connection made. I find this such a fascinating aspect of royal studies...connections!

As a voracious reader, I go through more than a book a week. I am currently reading books in four different languages (Vickers' Windsor book, Yo Maria de Borbon, Fortunes et Infortunes des princes d'Orleans, O principe perfeito) and am enjoying them thoroughly. Yo and O Principe I have read before.

Luckily my work allows for silence and solitude, which I invest in reading and writing.

Ab
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on June 13, 2011, 11:47:59 PM
There are many ways people can do so. I'm quite sure that if anyone finds themselves in that predicament, they can think of going to the post office and purchasing a post cheque or sending cash in a registered letter.  Paypal is also an option.

It is not unsurprising for us to receive letters with book orders containing postal cheques, Euros and dollars, along with a list of books people want.

Again...Where their is a will, there is a way.

I can't agree more.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 14, 2011, 09:58:28 AM
BlessOTMA, I had originally envisioned this book to be a biography of VMH.   She has fascinated me since I saw a photo of her and Louis  in Advice to My Granddaughter.  I was told by mainstream editors and agents that she really didn't do anything except go to parties and be a member of the royal family.  Were they reading the same book?  After that comment (dumb as it was) I thought, what about a sisters biography with the emphasis on the eldest sister.  It worked well because of what happened in their early lives, and the fact that Victoria basically did take charge when she was 15 years old.  Again, thanks for your wonderful comments.

My only regret is that the wonderful Theo Aronson isn't alive to see this... he was also extremely encouraging!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 14, 2011, 01:21:35 PM
The fact of the matter is that most "mainstream" editors know next to nothing about royalty. If it is not William and Catherine, the wrecked Ms Ferguson, the scandalous Grimaldis or the over-done N&A, they just don't care.

I believe that us, smaller publishers, are the ones who have to carry the mantle so royalty titles continue being produced...risk and all...it is a path I have chosen to trek on, including its pitfalls.

However, for all publishers to succeed, we need book readers. Without an interested readership, book publishing is doomed.

Ab
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on June 14, 2011, 05:53:45 PM
It is strange that VMH is the sister that interests me the least because, I think, so much has already been said about her.  Personally, I don't think I would have liked to have her as my sister.  Too bossy!

I also know that a lot has been written about Ella and Alix as well, but not as much about their early lives in Hesse.

Irene is the unknown quantity in all of this, but she managed to remain under the radar even though she was married to the brother of the Kaiser during World War I.

Irene and Henry must have had some interesting experiences, but perhaps they didn't leave a lot of written records for us to find.  But they were very close to the action because they were part of the German Royal Family.  I wonder how Irene felt about Empress Vicky and about her brother in law the Kaiser?
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 15, 2011, 10:13:55 AM
I think that Irene was often an apologist for the Kaiser and his bad behavior.  She also spent a lot of time "selling" her husband to the queen.  Although Irene is often thought of as the "weak" sister, I think it was awfully brave of her to distance herself from all the controversies in Berlin.  That in itself gives me a lot of respect for her.

As for VMH's bossines, Aliz, remember she was 15 when she not only took over her siblings, but let's be honest, her father as well.  I guess that is the way she coped -- with help from QV of course.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 15, 2011, 06:07:48 PM
I think a good indication of what VMH brought to the family can come into view when one realizes she ran her mother's charitable institutions from a earlier age until  she could finally hand the job over to Ernie's 2nd wife many years later...and VMH  did this via letters even though she had her own a growing family elsewhere ....But  no one else at Darmstadt would or could do it  it seems until then ...she was the family firewall so to speak , the steel and frankly families need one lol!.

It's interesting that royal history writing is considered a niche..and there fore more difficult to publish than other,  more " popular " topics...I believe the current ebook revolution will alter that and  much more royal history writing will become available in the future.

Irene was in a ticklish situation. I marvel  how families stay devoted to each other while being on opposites sides during war....I guess that's part of the job....  Much  mending went on between conflicts...however to be the Kaiser's' sister in law would seem to necessitate  being  in perpetual  the fence mending mode with others ....people paled at the thought of spending just a day with him....can't imagine  being his sister in law! lol! Indeed,  staying in  the back ground  was how she and her husband handed being in the Prussian family while  not being the  Kaiser....unfortunately that means today she can be not as visible to us either . But I was moved when I learned  she helped her mother in law get though her husband's death in a terrible situation ....that takes strenth...and being the mother of two ill boys takes strenth as well .
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 16, 2011, 10:26:37 AM
...and sadly, for Irene, I don't think the relationship with VMH was really ever the same even after WWI.  And, they didn't see each other again after WWII -- old age, of course, but possibly a certain lack of desire.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 17, 2011, 10:06:19 AM
...I should just add one thing that I thought quite interesting.  At the end of WWI, naturally, Irene did not think that their cause was wrong and wrote as such to VMH.  Unfortunately, I did not see the reply, but can just imagine!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on June 17, 2011, 11:12:29 AM
Good thing that didn't start a family feud . . . . or did it??  ;)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 17, 2011, 09:13:32 PM
...I should just add one thing that I thought quite interesting.  At the end of WWI, naturally, Irene did not think that their cause was wrong and wrote as such to VMH.  Unfortunately, I did not see the reply, but can just imagine!
wow...one can believe in the beginning "cause"( though the real one may not be the one  shouted in the street ) ....but believing in it at the end of all that is remarkable.
I would like to see VMH's  reply of course! 
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on June 18, 2011, 08:59:38 AM
Looking at The Great War though hindsight it is easy for us to judge the cause and effect of the conflict.

But to loyal Germans, just because they lost didn't mean that the original "cause" was wrong.  Remember that they would only have the information given by their government.  Also remember the harsh peace terms handed out in the end.

Irene and Heinrich were loyal Germans both before and after the war.  They would see the conflict differently than would VMH whose husband fought for the British and or Alix and Ella who had become more Russian than the Russians.

All four women were of German birth, but three of those women had changed their loyalties to support their husband's countries.

VMH might have thought that the "right side" won and perhaps history has shown her to be right, but to Irene the "wrong side" won and her country and family were hurt by that.  The future of her children and grandchildren was also effected by the way the war ended.

If VMH was as bossy and intractable and as opinionated toward Irene and Germany's loss as she has been shown to be in other things, then I can see the separation of the two sisters as a natural next step.

I think that in her book The Four Graces, Illana has shown the bossy, controlling, opinionated side of VMH quite well.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 18, 2011, 11:06:29 AM
...and just to add, the Germans (at least everyday ones) didn't have a clue that they were "losing" the war.  Things were bad of course, but they were pretty bad for the Allies as well. A much needed infusion of fresh troops and supplies came when the Americans started going "over there" in 1917.  The Germans didn't have this, obviously. 

Much of their decision to surrender was based on leaflets that President Wilson had dropped on Germany and Austria calling for a peace without victors and according to his "14 Points".  They were not, I believe, prepared for the reparations demanded upon them by the Allies, nor the horrible inflation that they were to experience in the next few years.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 18, 2011, 11:37:33 AM
I'm not speaking of the average German who had little say in the matter. But what was the cause?  As far as I can see, the wish of  Germany to expand its holdings...its "cause"  for its wars for many years before WW1.  Was that cause worth it or something to believe in after WW1?  I also  think the separation was based on age and experience...the sisters  had, all their  lives , been affected by Prussia's wish to expand.
Irene( peace) herself was named so in the hope for peace from this " cause " when it was still within Germany itself . Eventually age and  emotional  exhaustion sets in....why and how to mend when their life experience had taught them to expect another conflict?  The tradgy is if reparations demanded  by the Allies  after WW1 had not happened, things would have been very diffrent...just like if the Prussian  generals army had listened to Bismarck and not demanded Alsace-Lorraine years before...
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: historyfan on June 18, 2011, 09:04:29 PM
The cause of WWI is a whole other debate in and of itself.  At the risk of straying off-topic, I'll mention that I'm currently reading "The Unnecessary War" by Pat Buchanan.  It explores the reasons why both world wars need not have happened.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 19, 2011, 01:09:12 AM
lol...well we are discussing Irene's belief in Germany's cause after WW1...not the cause of the war! lol! ...Indeed, WW1 need not happen....expect everyone thought they would enjoy it ....and then  the reparations demanded  by the Allies set up WW2 in good measure...but now we are off topic!

Back to topic

I was very moved by the whole story of Ella's body  and those of the other members of the family  who died with her  , being brought out of Russia by Father Seraphim . And then his  trying to take them by himself all the way to  Jerusalem!  Just amazing .... It was great VMH and Prince Louis accompanied  Ella coffin's  part of the way . Really Father Seraphim could complete his mission because Victoria was alerted by Princess Bernice , who happened to read the story in the news paper! ... and  VMH saw to it the proper authorities in the holy lands were in board etc ... it  was sad Irene couldn't joined them as she wished to ...but it's a miracle the family  got this opportunity
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 19, 2011, 11:35:25 AM
The whole journey of Father Seraphim is a miracle isn't it?  I have been to this church and it's an amazing place.  An onion-domed church set in the heat of the middle east!  It seems incongruous! I hope that they DON'T take Ella back.  I like her resting there and also her niece Alice as well.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on June 19, 2011, 02:29:34 PM
Is someone thinking that it would be a good idea to take Ella back?  To where?  Russia?

She wanted to buried in Jerusalem even before the Revolution when she just could have been buried next to Sergei.

Why would anyone think she would approve of being moved even after death?
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 19, 2011, 07:26:32 PM
Exactly. Ella already made that decision some time ago...the amazing thing  is Father Seraphim was  making it happen post revolution Russia! It must of been fairly well  known she wanted to be buried there....or how would he know? Did he know Ella in life? He didn't ask the family for help! It was offered when they learned of his quest.  If the story  was in as novel of the sisters one would say it was way over the top! lol! It's marvelous Ilana  you got there. Were the other members of the family left in China? I always had a soft spot for Igor K.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 20, 2011, 10:22:59 AM
I believe the other members were left in China and I don't remember what happened to them.

I had heard, and this may be just hearsay, that the Sisters of SS Mary and Martha wanted to bring Ella back to Moscow.  Also, Serge is not in Jerusalem, I think he's in the Fortress of Peter and Paul.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Kalafrana on June 20, 2011, 10:32:15 AM
Serge was originally buried in the Chudov Monastery in the Kremlin. The monastery was demolished in 1928 and his remains were rediscovered in 1990 underneath a car park on the site. He was subsequently reburied at the Novospassky Monastery, also in Moscow.

I'm in danger of going off topic here, but I'm guessing that Serge was buried at the Chudov Monastery at his own request.

Ann
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on June 20, 2011, 01:06:44 PM
  Also, Serge is not in Jerusalem, I think he's in the Fortress of Peter and Paul.

I didn't mean to imply that Sergei was buried in Jerusalem.  I knew that he was buried in Moscow after his assassination.  I always felt bad about the "car park" thing.  It was almost as if he was just "thrown away".  But that was a Soviet thing to do with Romanovs.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 21, 2011, 10:01:02 AM
Yes, I knew about the car park thing as well!  I just don't keep those facts in my head when I know where to get them. 

Let's face it Serge was not the most popular of Romanovs for various reasons, and I don't see him getting rehabilitated like the rest seem to be ....

Anyhow, you're right, we're way off topic, back to the lovely Graces!!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Laura Mabee on June 21, 2011, 01:55:57 PM
I cannot wait for the Canada postal strike to end, I'm eagerly awaiting my copy! I know it was sent in the mail a bit ago.. now if I could just get my postal workers to send it my way : D
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: historyfan on June 21, 2011, 08:11:32 PM
I cannot wait for the Canada postal strike to end, I'm eagerly awaiting my copy! I know it was sent in the mail a bit ago.. now if I could just get my postal workers to send it my way : D

Oh NO, Laura!  : (  Hopefully early next week, I hear!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Svetabel on June 22, 2011, 02:48:13 AM
Ilana, you made me take a deep dive into your book ). I think the last time I was really captivated with a Royal bio was Last Romantic by Pakula or perhaps Victoria's Daughters by Packard - but it was so long ago..Now I even try to find an extra time for reading the Four Graces. I like your style of writing, very vivid and never dull.

But I am definitely a spoilt hunter for rare images )). Only 3-4 photos in the book I've never seen.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 22, 2011, 10:06:48 AM
Thank you, thank you.  I know what you mean about the images, but because you have seen so many...at this point it's exciting to see ONE you've never seen.  I was blown away when Art sent me one he purchased of VMH that I hadn't seen...it's like discovering a treasure!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 23, 2011, 12:34:23 PM
I wonder if I might ask a favor.

As you know, THE FOUR GRACES was published by a small publisher.  If you liked the book and would give it 5 stars, would you be so kind as to write a few sentences on AMAZON and give it the five stars.  Some people search just for 5 star reviews, and that might be another way for people to find the book!!

Many, many thanks in advance.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on June 23, 2011, 12:38:39 PM
It was already on my list to do so once I finish. (I feel confident in that it would be a 5 star based on what I've read so far. Unless the book collapses in the last parts, I don't see a reason to rate it less--it's been fantastic.  :) )
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 23, 2011, 04:32:55 PM
Thanks, I so appreciate!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on June 24, 2011, 09:23:13 PM
on my way over to Amazon ....thanks for the reminder!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on June 25, 2011, 11:30:28 AM
I cannot wait for the Canada postal strike to end, I'm eagerly awaiting my copy! I know it was sent in the mail a bit ago.. now if I could just get my postal workers to send it my way : D

Your book was sent the next business day.

The day after, our local post office stopped accepting mail to Canada. I have a now a growing pile of packages that are to go to your lovely country when the mail resumes. What a mess they are in!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Laura Mabee on June 25, 2011, 12:49:46 PM
Your book was sent the next business day.

The day after, our local post office stopped accepting mail to Canada. I have a now a growing pile of packages that are to go to your lovely country when the mail resumes. What a mess they are in!
Oh I have no doubt. I know the delay is on my end. Wasn't making a complaint about your shipping.
I am really looking forward to getting my hands on this work! : )
The Canada post strike is causing quite the problem over here. We all look to the news every day in hopes of an end.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 26, 2011, 11:14:19 AM
Totally off topic, but I didn't think that vital services were allowed to strike... like police or firefighters, etc.  Perhaps that's not the case in Canada.

Anyhow, I hope you get the book soon, am anxious for your opinion, Laura!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on June 26, 2011, 11:52:14 AM
I think that the "blue flu" is a kind of strike for officers in uniform.  But nurses, who are vital, do strike and so do teachers, who should be ashamed of themselves for setting bad examples for their students.  Especially as in Wisconsin this past year.  What a debacle.

So off topic.  Now back on.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on June 27, 2011, 10:30:59 AM
Shows you how ignorant I am!!  Thanks Alixz..............!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on July 05, 2011, 11:47:12 AM
Ignorant!?!?!?

Ilana, you are so not ignorant. At least you managed to write a book!!! Oh well, I didn't know about the strikes, either . . . I guess, if you persist in thinking yourself ignorant, that makes two of us!!!!  :D ;)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alexander1917 on July 06, 2011, 12:14:22 AM
just finshed, and I can say I love the book. some new facts (for me). the long waiting was absolutly worth :-)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 06, 2011, 11:24:16 AM
Thanks!  I'm so glad it gave something to you!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Svetabel on July 06, 2011, 12:52:31 PM
just finshed, and I can say I love the book. some new facts (for me). the long waiting was absolutly worth :-)

Same here))

The 'image' of Victoria is really fascinating, what a person! I found some new facts too,so...thanks, Ilana!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 07, 2011, 10:52:39 AM
VMH was someone that I connected to right away.  It really was the strangest thing.  As you can see, I admired her endlessly, and although it's not fashionable today, I really admired her "stiff upper lip" in the face of a great deal of horrific tragedies!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: koloagirl on July 07, 2011, 08:27:02 PM

Aloha!

Ilana - I have to say that I am deep into reading your book (due to the extreme kindness of a friend!!!) - and I am enjoying it so very much!

I am learning so many things about the sisters that I didn't know and your writing style is wonderful - I just had to tell you how much I am enjoying it!!

Boy, between "The Lost Crown" and "The Four Graces" - this has been a bonanza of wonderful books for me this month!

Wonderful book - really great!

Janet R.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 08, 2011, 11:15:19 AM
Thanks so much, Janet.

Also, just have to crow a little...

THE FOUR GRACES has been chosen by Majesty Magazine as its Book of the Month for August!!

YIPPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

Okay, I'm calm now...er...sort of...... !
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on July 08, 2011, 01:12:07 PM
Wow, Ilana!

CONGRATULATIONS!!

What an accomplishment!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: newfan on July 08, 2011, 03:21:35 PM
It really is a great book
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on July 09, 2011, 12:43:27 AM
Wonderful news and WELL deserved! :) Congratulations!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Laura Mabee on July 09, 2011, 01:02:03 PM
Congratulations!! I will definitely pick up this August's Majesty Magazine for the write up :D
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 12, 2011, 10:31:19 AM
...as will I!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Helen_Azar on July 19, 2011, 02:52:48 PM
I have a borrowed copy, courtesy blessOTMA and hope to get to read it soon! So many books so little time :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 20, 2011, 10:13:16 AM
Thanks, Helen, please PM me again with address for Free Library.

I'm taping Booktalk today, and very excited.  I believe it gets streamed, so I'll post a link as soon as it's available!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: AJR on July 25, 2011, 06:22:13 AM
I would be interested to know if the book contains any images of Irene in old age? I find it amazing that she lived until 1953 and have yet to see any photographs of her after about the mid 1930s.

It has also featured in this month's Majesty magazine.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 25, 2011, 09:55:33 AM
Yes, there is a photo or two of Irene in old age.

Thanks for the mention, I am so excited that they are featuring me!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: AJR on July 25, 2011, 10:27:04 AM
Many thanks for your reply - and well done on the book .... it sounds great.

It retails for £29.00 in Majesty (UK & Europe) and $59.00 for U.S customers.

It is on my 'wants' list!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 25, 2011, 06:48:55 PM
Look forward to your comments.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on July 25, 2011, 07:24:04 PM
I would be interested to know if the book contains any images of Irene in old age? I find it amazing that she lived until 1953 and have yet to see any photographs of her after about the mid 1930s.

It has also featured in this month's Majesty magazine.

The one on the top is in the book:

The site svetabel mentioned on the Pictures of Henry & Irene's family thread also yielded these:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/lb-1_die_gruenderin.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/germany/a02-02.jpg)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 26, 2011, 11:18:15 AM
Now, THAT'S one I have definitely never seen before, interesting!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on July 27, 2011, 10:16:23 AM
I thought the top one was in the book or am I hallucinating? (I was trying to go by memory since I didn't and don't have the book with me.)  :-\ :-[  I could've sworn that was one in there because I was loving the Irene photos.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 27, 2011, 11:18:31 AM
The top one was in the book, I was reacting to the postcard.  I have never seen that one before, although, there are probably loads I've never seen!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on July 27, 2011, 03:25:22 PM
OK, I thought senility was coming early! (Half the time I think it's already here.) Yes, they are both great old images of Irene--she led such a quiet life even before WW1 and WW2 that it's hard to come across any of her as an elderly woman.

BTW, for anyone who missed it upthread, Ilana's book has GREAT images in it--many of which were completely new to me and I've been at the picture game for decades! The images are as great as the writing which is pretty darn good.  :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: AJR on July 27, 2011, 04:47:24 PM
Brilliant photos!! Many thanks.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on July 27, 2011, 08:31:48 PM
I do love the post card. It's nice to see her so happy
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 29, 2011, 10:33:03 AM
It's interesting how the other ladies seem like they're dressed up as Amish.  Irene's costume reminds me of a very sweet photo I've seen of Ella and Victoria when little girls in Hessian costume.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Helen on July 29, 2011, 01:14:06 PM
It's interesting how the other ladies seem like they're dressed up as Amish.  Irene's costume reminds me of a very sweet photo I've seen of Ella and Victoria when little girls in Hessian costume.
It΄s a picture of Princess Irene with nurses of the Heinrich Schwesternschaft of the German Red Cross (DRK). The Heinrich Schwesternschaft developed from the Heinrich Children's Hospital, which was established by Princess Irene in 1906, after the death of her son Heinrich, and from Princess Irene's war work. (http://www.heinrich-schwestern.de/index.php?id=19 and http://www.heinrich-schwestern.de/index.php?id=79)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on July 29, 2011, 01:15:13 PM
I was about to post about the nurses uniforms when Helen beat me to it.

True Amish dress looks nothing like that.  I have seen many Amish in PA.

Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on July 29, 2011, 06:38:06 PM
The photo of Irene as an old lady came from her own grandson, who gifted me several private photos some years ago.

As some of you may know, Prince Alfred was like a grandfather to me.

Arturo Beιche
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eurohistory on July 29, 2011, 06:40:48 PM
The book includes close to 90 photos. The first selection of images totaled several hundred, but that would have made cost astronomical. Choosing which images to include was extremely difficult.

Arturo Beιche
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on July 30, 2011, 11:17:03 AM
It was the caps they were wearing, Alixz :)!!!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Russka Princess on July 31, 2011, 08:59:07 AM
Hey

FINALLY i buyd the book! im soo happy, i cant wait till i can read it.

it true, 80 photos  are in the book ??? im sure i would love the pics.

sorry for my bad english..

and sorry that i wasnt long time online, i was busy with m exams and now im finish  ^^
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 01, 2011, 11:02:20 AM
I hope you will enjoy the book.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: jfkhaos on August 01, 2011, 11:35:52 AM
I usually don't post on the assorted boards for lack of new information to share, but Ilana, I purchased your book with mixed impressions.  I have books on Alix and Ella, and the ficitional one about the royal mob on VMH, so I wasn't sure what to expect.  I was pleasantly surprised to find a new book that is almost impossible to put down when I am home.  I only wish I didn't read so fast as I am almost done.  Congratulations! :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 02, 2011, 11:01:37 AM
Thanks so much, I am very gratified to hear it!!  You know I wrote the fictional one, don't you??? :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 02, 2011, 09:05:14 PM
Did you really? Or does the smiley indicate a sense of humour being used? =D

If you did, good grief, woman, you sure get around!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 03, 2011, 10:41:35 AM
Haaa...I thought it was common knowledge around here that I wrote The Royal Mob.  I wrote it under the pseudonym of Theresa Sherman because I was bringing out this non-fiction.  I actually wrote the fiction first about 12 years ago, and then was prodded by friends to write the real deal.  What amazed me was that after delving into the letters and documents I really DID have a great instinct about VMH's character.  Somehow, I had intuited much about her that later turned out to be correct, based on all the primary sources I consulted. 
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on August 03, 2011, 03:31:03 PM
One wouldn't know they were 12 years apart...and if one does read both, there are some small passages that are similar like in descriptions of some people ( Sando etc.)  That might  give one a clue . What I find particularly  remarkable in the novel are the conversations. You made " Aunty',  Princess Bernice ,  so real . I can see her saying  When she says ," Oh Victoria, this is not the time for your socialistic  nonsense" Both VMH and the reader can't help but laugh.  The two  books  are page turners  for  sure. I have to laugh when someone says , but nothing happened!!Ha! Somehow you are able to see and understand this lady deeply and you lets us do so as well .  Thanks!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Helen_Azar on August 03, 2011, 05:44:50 PM
Haaa...I thought it was common knowledge around here that I wrote The Royal Mob.  I wrote it under the pseudonym of Theresa Sherman because I was bringing out this non-fiction. 

I don't think it's common knowledge at all. Do you remember when I sent you an email last year after I read it, recommending it to you - without even suspecting that it was you who wrote it! lol
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on August 03, 2011, 06:54:19 PM
[I don't think it's common knowledge at all. Do you remember when I sent you an email last year after I read it, recommending it to you - without even suspecting that it was you who wrote it! lol
That's pretty funny! ....and I agree it's not well known. You had to tell me when I was praising the Four Graces! lol
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 04, 2011, 10:59:16 AM
It just shows you!  Sometimes because something is obvious to you, you think it's obvious to everyone else.  And, I think I was "outed" once or twice.  Oh, well...
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on August 04, 2011, 03:51:40 PM
Ilana - you "outed" to me because your email account for Theresa Sherman was on the blink and you were answering a question I had asked.

The answer came from Ilana Miller and you explained about The Four Graces and why it was important for me to keep it to myself.

You asked me not to say anything - I didn't!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 05, 2011, 10:21:12 AM
Oh, of course not, Alixz.... I just thought somehow it got around.

All moot now, no worries!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on August 05, 2011, 01:18:38 PM
Oh, of course not, Alixz.... I just thought somehow it got around.

All moot now, no worries!!

I know.  I just remembered now that the whole thing had happened.  It was so long ago, I had actually forgotten you had told me!
Now I only don't remember a lot of things, I forget that I even knew about them to begin with!

Must be getting close it Alzheimer's.   :-)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 06, 2011, 11:52:29 AM
Ugh, Alixz, don't go there!!!!!!!  Very Big Smiley!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 11, 2011, 10:38:33 AM
Yes, I think most of us who know Ilana personally knew that she was "Theresa Sherman" but we were asked not to say anything to avoid any confusion with TFG. I think sometimes we forget that the world of royal history is actually much larger than we writers imagine!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 11, 2011, 11:33:58 AM
That's for sure, Lisa!! XO
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Laura_ on August 12, 2011, 10:24:07 AM

 The book also includes several family trees helping the reader place the extensive cast of characters in historical perspective, as well as a glossy photo section with close to 100 unique images of the protagonists and their extended web of royal and imperial relations!



The book includes close to 90 photos.

Arturo Beιche


=)) =)) =))
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 13, 2011, 12:45:11 AM
The photos alone are a huge treat - there is one of Grand Duchess Elizabeth where she almost takes ones breath away - and the saddest is the funeral photo after the Hessian air tragedy.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Laura_ on August 13, 2011, 03:28:45 AM
A very pertinent review from amazon  ;) :)

Not quite what I hoped for . . . not about all 4 sisters, August 4, 2011
By
Parkermann347 (U.S.) - See all my reviews
This review is from: The Four Graces: Queen Victoria's Hessian Granddaughters (Hardcover)

I ordered this book originally in 2008 and waited and waited and got notice after notice from the book seller that once again, this book had been delayed.

That's not my problem with this book.

After reading it, what I thought was that it was supposed to be about all 4 sisters, as in 'the FOUR Graces' - right? Well, having just finished it, it was roughly 90% about Princess Victoria and leaves the other 3 with just very brief mentions here and there.

There are a few wonderful tidbits here and there, letters and diary entries that in around 20 years of reading on the subject I have never seen before. But, it appears that the original concept for this book had changed. When I first saw the ads for this book, I got the idea this book would be similar to 'The Hellenic Dynasty' published by Eurohistory, one that is a larger format photo book with various journal entries and letters to fill it out. Something like the 2 Charlotte Zeepvat books. When I received this in the mail, I was fairly disappointed at how small it was. But, hoping that the content would make up for it, I plugged on, squinting my thirty-something eyes trying to read the teeny tiny print.

And so . . .

After the long wait, the light touches on 3 of the 4 sisters is kind of a letdown. Irene remains a virtual cypher, Ella is only briefly touched on, no deep insights there. Alix is virtually ignored. Perhaps the author really wanted to write a biography of Victoria, and yes there is a need for an in depth biography of this very fascinating woman, but after 3 to 4 years of waiting, the entire book feels like a rough outline of a far more in depth book.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Alixz on August 13, 2011, 08:20:43 AM
I actually felt the same way.  It was almost like reading The Royal Mob but this one isn't fiction.

Of course, I also mentioned the "long arm syndrome" and how small the print was.

I know that Ilana wrote a very good book, but I, too, mentioned that I would like to know more about Irene.

Heavy emphasis on Victoria, but then she lived the longest and had most of her papers preserved.  Being the grandmother of the Duke of Edinburgh also helped.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 13, 2011, 10:41:35 AM
I will mention again that Irene burned her papers.  I was in touch with her descendents and they supplied me with about 6 letters.  I did the best with that that I could.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on August 13, 2011, 11:14:42 AM
Well I certainly would not agree with that Amazon review . If anything , I  found the book so rich, that one will  to reread it over time to gather it all in ! 
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 13, 2011, 03:09:02 PM
Sometimes, we just can't win! As historians, we tend to favor primary sources, so if there are few if any to be had, it invites criticism. I know for Irene there were blessed few sources, and Ilana has confirmed that. I thought that Ilana was very even handed given that Ella is regarded as a saint, there is little formation about Irene, and Alexandra is still controversial after all these years. There is more information about VMH, and the combined biography does favor her for quite obvious reasons, but even so, there is still criticism about that. Oy.

A good friend of mine read my Nicholas II piece in the Grand Dukes Volume I and thought I "disliked" Alexandra. I actually quite admire her, but I don't think she was the right empress for Russia nor the best wife for Nicholas. As I said, sometimes we just can't win, but I am glad that those who criticize TFG have actually read the book.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Teddy on August 13, 2011, 04:11:11 PM
My opinion was that I got almost everything what I expected. Indeed you can notice that VMH is the center of this book. But I don't bother that.  The only thing whatmissed were certain photo's. For example the famous picture of the Royal Mob during Ernie and VMH wedding, and the groupphoto of the wedding of Princess Alice and Prince Andrew (1903). And maybe some photo's of family members who are mentioned quite often in this book. I liked also the quotes of VMH about her aunts. And because she lived a big deal at the English court it would be interesting to know more about the relationship between her Britisch relations. But if I could give it a grade, then it would be surely a fat 8.

Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 13, 2011, 06:47:16 PM
Thanks for the fat 8!!

Art really had to pick and choose with the photos, Teddy, and I guess that Wedding photo is so ubiquitous that he felt safe leaving it out.  I am glad you liked the book!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Kalafrana on August 14, 2011, 02:40:22 AM
I too would like to know more about Irene. In particular, how she and Heinrich coped with two haemophiliac sons.

I will wait to read the book.

Ann
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on August 14, 2011, 10:53:17 AM
The thing about Irene is she seems to have lived very quietly during life...and that's reflected now as well in the lack of papers etc..
But one would think she and Alix had much to discuss...their sons condition is a striking bond between them. Unless a frank exchange on the topic of haemophiliac sons was taboo? In that AF would maintain "our friend"  would heal Alexi or he would grow out of it etc. But well before WW1 and the revolution, her branch of the Romanovs had lost the throne...in time  it would pass to another part of the family as Alexi's health was too poor for him to rule. She fought this all but certain eventuality for many years . 
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Helen on August 15, 2011, 01:05:35 AM
In that AF would maintain "our friend"  would heal Alexi or he would grow out of it etc.
Would she?  Alexandra did not mention Rasputin in dozens and dozens and dozens of letters to her brother and sister-in-law. And although she sent Princess Irene regular telegrams to keep her informed of Alexei΄s health in November 1912, the name of Rasputin or "our friend" are not mentioned in her letters and telegrams to Irene that have survived either.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on August 15, 2011, 07:03:07 PM
In that AF would maintain "our friend"  would heal Alexi or he would grow out of it etc.
Would she?  Alexandra did not mention Rasputin in dozens and dozens and dozens of letters to her brother and sister-in-law. And although she sent Princess Irene regular telegrams to keep her informed of Alexei΄s health in November 1912, the name of Rasputin or "our friend" are not mentioned in her letters and telegrams to Irene that have survived either.
Oh I meant in her own mind....she perhaps wouldn't discuss the disease with Irene because in her mind " our friend " would cure it....but normally, one would think this would be quite a topic between them . Who understands better than another mother? But I get the sense  she wouldn't talk about him to others nor liked them to comment about him either unless they revered him as well. Certainly Rasputin was not talked about in letters  to her siblings ....nor I woulkd say in person...unless they brought him up in order to get her to separate herself from him 
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 16, 2011, 11:13:00 AM
Hi, if anyone would like to see me talking about the book (bloopers and all) on Youtube... here is the URL
http://www.youtube.com/user/ConnieMartinson?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/0/V9e8EAwZwaE (http://www.youtube.com/user/ConnieMartinson?blend=1&ob=5#p/u/0/V9e8EAwZwaE)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on August 16, 2011, 12:31:04 PM
Terrific , Thanks!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on August 16, 2011, 06:25:10 PM
Very nice interview! I didn't watch the whole thing--hopefully I'll have time to later. And I must get this inter-library-loaned!!! Anyways, is Hessian really pronounced "Heshan"? I always thought it was pronounced "Hes-ee" or, "hes-ee-an".
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 17, 2011, 10:30:39 AM
Excellent question!  I've always pronounced it Heshun, being American and thinking of the Hessian mercenaries that came to this country during the revolutionary wars.  I believe the English pronounce it Hes-eean, as you've written it.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 18, 2011, 01:43:13 PM
I think there should be a similar book dealing with Empress Frederick's four daughters!   8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 19, 2011, 10:30:00 AM
There are all kinds of possibilities... sisters biographies I think are great.  Certainly emphasis will be on the most interesting, or possibly the ones about which less in know, but ... darn, I wish I read German!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on August 19, 2011, 11:55:24 AM
I thought Ilana did the best with regards to Irene that anyone could hope for given the fact that a) she burned so many letters as Ilana points out and b) led a fairly quiet life considering her connections to England, Germany and Russia. I comb through old books, magazines and newspapers all the time and even the ones in German have fairly little of Irene in them. She just didn't seek the limelight, even given her position as sister-in-law to 2 Emperors. Her life, frankly, even with letters, probably wouldn't make scintillating reading save for the light it might shine on others. I'm just glad we got ANYthing on her. LOL It was certainly more fleshed out (as in using Irene's own words) than her portrayal in one of my favorite (but out-dated) books Hessian Tapestry.

Ella is my favorite royal but, frankly, I've read about her. I was excited for Victoria and Irene. Alix has been done over so much already.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on August 19, 2011, 01:59:37 PM
It was this book that finally got me interested in Ella in a serious manner....and Queen Victoria too!. I'm currently reading a bio of Alice of Greece, Victoria 's daughter. Very interesting indeed.  If one is interested in Royal history...really a well done book such as the Four Graces, illuminates  many others besides the book's  subjects.... that I believe I would pass by , but for reading  The Four Graces

 What makes royal reading so interesting is you have human beings in an extraordinary circumstance ...and( usually)  there is much information about what they did and said in that situation over a life time . It's a rich study in human psychology that  has few rivals.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on August 19, 2011, 02:33:45 PM
I think there should be a similar book dealing with Empress Frederick's four daughters!   8) 8) 8)

Would love that one! If I had the ability that would definitely  be one I'd like to do.  :)  Maybe someone will tackle it someday.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Vecchiolarry on August 19, 2011, 05:46:33 PM
Hi,

Ilana has alluded to wanting to write about the four Greek sisters of Prince Philip and I have encouraged her to do so.
Understandably, she has hesitated because of her lack of German.  But, she already has an "in" with Prince Philip and the Countess Mountbatten, so I would urge her to start there!!!
I have already suggested a title for it;  but we'll keep that under wraps for now.....

Also, the four daughters of Empress Frederick would be great to tackle and most interesting knowledge....

Larry
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Olga Bernice on August 19, 2011, 06:07:32 PM
Hi,

Ilana has alluded to wanting to write about the four Greek sisters of Prince Philip and I have encouraged her to do so.
Understandably, she has hesitated because of her lack of German.  But, she already has an "in" with Prince Philip and the Countess Mountbatten, so I would urge her to start there!!!
I have already suggested a title for it;  but we'll keep that under wraps for now.....

Also, the four daughters of Empress Frederick would be great to tackle and most interesting knowledge....

Larry

Maybe I'm just not understanding ( :-[) but by "in" do you mean that Ilana knows Prince Philip?? Queen Elizabeth's husband?
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: DNAgenie on August 19, 2011, 08:14:03 PM
Grandduchessella wrote:
Quote
I comb through old books, magazines and newspapers all the time and even the ones in German have fairly little of Irene in them.

Grandduchessella, do you read German?
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: LisaDavidson on August 20, 2011, 12:49:58 AM
Hi,

Ilana has alluded to wanting to write about the four Greek sisters of Prince Philip and I have encouraged her to do so.
Understandably, she has hesitated because of her lack of German.  But, she already has an "in" with Prince Philip and the Countess Mountbatten, so I would urge her to start there!!!
I have already suggested a title for it;  but we'll keep that under wraps for now.....

Also, the four daughters of Empress Frederick would be great to tackle and most interesting knowledge....

Larry

Maybe I'm just not understanding ( :-[) but by "in" do you mean that Ilana knows Prince Philip?? Queen Elizabeth's husband?


I don't think she knows the DOE socially. I believe he agreed to answer her questions regarding his grandmother for her book. He was very gracious to her as was Countess Mountbatten.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Vecchiolarry on August 20, 2011, 09:52:29 AM
Hi,

Yes, that is what I meant - Lisa's answer....
If she wanted to do a book on the Greek Princesses, then Prince Philip and the Countess Mountbatten would at least consider (favourably, I'm sure) to an interview.  Ilana has voiced that the Countess was "pleased' with the Hessian book....

Larry
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 20, 2011, 11:47:17 AM


Would love that one! If I had the ability that would definitely  be one I'd like to do.  :)  Maybe someone will tackle it someday.
[/quote]

I think you would be perfect to tackle such a book!  ;)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on August 21, 2011, 11:18:31 AM
Thanks everyone, now if only someone would agree to translate all the letters that no doubt went back and forth from the sisters to the grandmothers to the fathers, etc., etc., I imagine most are in German... hmmmmmm!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on August 22, 2011, 12:52:15 PM


Would love that one! If I had the ability that would definitely  be one I'd like to do.  :)  Maybe someone will tackle it someday.

I think you would be perfect to tackle such a book!  ;)
[/quote]

Thank you so much, Eddie. A photo book on the Prussian princesses is on my ever-lengthening but never-going-anywhere list of books I'd like to do. I have a huge collection of photos and would be capable of doing captions and interesting bits but I don't believe I have the skill of someone like Ilana to take the initiative to do the research and grunt work to work on a real bio--nor the writing skills to weave the women's lives together into a comprehensive biography like was done in The Four Graces. Your confidence is much appreciated though.  :) :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eddie_uk on August 22, 2011, 01:29:32 PM
grandduchessella a photo book of the Prussian Princesses would be amazing, what a great idea!! I'm sure there must be some beautiful pictures of Empress Frederick's "trio" floating around, which I particularly would love to see! I'm sure once you started it it would all begin to fall into place! :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on August 22, 2011, 04:25:24 PM
There really are--some pretty rare ones that I've dug up in various configurations (individual and in different groupings). That was one of my favorite parts (as I can never mention too much LOL) of Ilana's book--the number of photos and the fact that they weren't all photos that we've seen over and over. There were some real gems in there. Even the ones that were familiar, it was nice to see them in one place. So many bios really skimp on the photos or have very poor quality--not the case here. Obviously, with royal books not having the largest market, sometimes it is necessary due to cost to use more familiar images, that's understandable, so it was an extra treat in this case to not only have a bio on some long-neglected princesses but a treasure of images to go along with.

I've had a few books in the works (until my hard drive broke--I need to send it off for data recovery--eek!) all being photobooks. I did get some words of advice from Art on the subject which I appreciated. I shuffled around some ideas based on feedback.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on September 28, 2011, 09:55:17 AM
Nice ad in RDQ if anyone gets that magazine, with a lovely quote about the book by Coryne Hall.  So happy with reception of book!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: blessOTMA on September 28, 2011, 10:46:03 PM
Nice ad in RDQ if anyone gets that magazine, with a lovely quote about the book by Coryne Hall.  So happy with reception of book!
It's so WELL deserved!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Russka Princess on November 01, 2011, 03:59:39 PM
well finaly i have my book and i read it since three months, sadly i have not everyday time to read it but i can say its really good Book!  I think its very interesting and you find much much more about the Four Hesse Princesses.

If im finish with the Book ill write again and commet the Book at amazon. =)

But for now! espect Ilana ^^
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on November 02, 2011, 10:31:55 AM
Thank you, I'm glad you're enjoying it!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: katmaxoz on November 02, 2011, 01:56:04 PM
I thought the book was well researched, especially in regards to the life of Princess Victoria and had some interesting source quotes I've not seen elsewhere. For me the most difficult thing about the book was the font.  My eyes are good but the writing is tiny and that alone made it a slow read for me.

Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on November 05, 2011, 11:43:17 AM
Yes, sadly it was done in that manner due to the expense of having many more pages!  I am really sorry about that!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on November 27, 2011, 10:37:31 AM
For anyone hoping to get this book for the holidays, and I hope you do, Amazon is unavailable just for the moment, a mix-up, but there are books and just keep watching that space!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on December 07, 2011, 11:56:51 AM
Book available once again on Amazon!! Also, available at Van Hoogstratten, through Majesty's website and through Eurohistory's webiste.  Just wanted to let everyone know. P.S. Sorry if I spelt van Hoogstratten wrong, forgive me!!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: wildone on December 10, 2011, 01:38:58 AM
Book available once again on Amazon!! Also, available at Van Hoogstratten, through Majesty's website and through Eurohistory's webiste.  Just wanted to let everyone know. P.S. Sorry if I spelt van Hoogstratten wrong, forgive me!!!!

I plan to buy it, though it probably won't be until after Christmas, when I have a little money.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Ilana on April 24, 2012, 10:08:52 AM
One more little bit of shameless self-promotion.  Arturo visited the Landgraf Moritz of Hesse who said  'that Ilana Miller's The Four Graces, was "the best book on the four sisters of Hesse I have ever READ, really splendid and with your photos, just a treasure...well done, really!".'
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 24, 2012, 11:22:08 AM
It is really nicely done. I throughly enjoyed it. Well worth the wait.  ;)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Georgiy on April 26, 2012, 10:16:44 PM
Second Eric's comment! A fascinating and enjoyable read.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eric_Lowe on April 27, 2012, 11:25:56 AM
Indeed. The only sad thing is that there cannot be more info on Irene, her life was more obscured by her sisters. I wonder if her letters to her brother Ernie or cousins Mossy, Sophie or Charlotte survive...
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: perdita on June 21, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
LOL.


Also Edwina, Dickie's, wife.  She seems to have been a paragon of virtue and good will and the ultimate daughter in law.

Edwina a "paragon of virtue"?

Hardly that.

However, in Victoria's mind she may have rated "the ultimate daughter in law".

Ever the "progressive", as a kind of alter ego perhaps Edwina fitted the bill for Victoria.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: perdita on June 21, 2012, 11:58:40 PM
Indeed. The only sad thing is that there cannot be more info on Irene, her life was more obscured by her sisters. I wonder if her letters to her brother Ernie or cousins Mossy, Sophie or Charlotte survive...

Perhaps Irene's life was more obscured by her sisters because she was not particularily interesting. Princess Irene comes across a cypher. No one, including her siblings, seem to have fond or riveting memories of that lady. She makes little impression.

Granted. It is hoped by those interested in genealogy or royal family histories that all available correspondence between the Hesse sisters, their husbands, & relations will one day be published. A paper trial would shed new insights on their unique characters and complicated family relationships in their historical setting.

A pity more books like "A Lifelong Passion: Nicholas and Alexandra" are not published. Invaluable and fascinating. It is said that the authors had to edit out half the content because it was too long. Wish they would reconsider and publish what they "regretfully" were forced to discard.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Helen on June 22, 2012, 02:13:44 AM
Indeed. The only sad thing is that there cannot be more info on Irene, her life was more obscured by her sisters. I wonder if her letters to her brother Ernie or cousins Mossy, Sophie or Charlotte survive...
The archive in Darmstadt has dozens of letters to her father, mother, brother. And GARF in Moscow has her postcards and telegrams to Alix. 

Perhaps Irene's life was more obscured by her sisters because she was not particularily interesting. Princess Irene comes across a cypher. No one, including her siblings, seem to have fond or riveting memories of that lady. She makes little impression.
The cards that Irene sent to Alix were interesting and written in a very warm tone - and actually made a more pleasant impression than the ones sent by Ella that I read. In no way, Irene's cards and the telegrams that Alix sent to Irene gave me the impression that they were not fond of one another.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 22, 2012, 08:51:57 AM
That is very interesting since Ilana told me that Irene's letters were all destroyed by her and since she survived her brother, those letters might have been returned and destroyed too. Glad to know that is not the case. If the letters to her cousins Mossy, Charley and Sophie exist. That would be enough for a book just based upon those...

Indeed, both Alicky & Irene have children with hemophilia, that created a common bond with each other. I don't know if the Empress suggest Rasputin to her sister's son too as a remedy ? 
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Helen on June 22, 2012, 09:27:56 AM
That is very interesting since Ilana told me that Irene's letters were all destroyed by her and since she survived her brother, those letters might have been returned and destroyed too. Glad to know that is not the case. ...
Indeed, both Alicky & Irene have children with hemophilia, that created a common bond with each other. I don't know if the Empress suggest Rasputin to her sister's son too as a remedy ? 
Princess Irene destroyed many full letters that she had received, but not all postcards and telegrams.
I don't recall reading anything about 'our friend'/Rasputin/Grigori in the Empress' cards and telegrams to Princess Irene that have been preserved, but it seems likely that he was somehow mentioned/discussed in private conversations.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 22, 2012, 10:05:19 AM
Yes. I just wondered if the full letters from Irene to her cousins like, Mossy, Marie Louise or Thora survived in its entirety.

Yes. Naturally Alicky would have bought the subject up since Irene still have one child growing up with the disease
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: MademoiselleAndrea on June 22, 2012, 06:53:52 PM
The cards that Irene sent to Alix were interesting and written in a very warm tone - and actually made a more pleasant impression than the ones sent by Ella that I read. In no way, Irene's cards and the telegrams that Alix sent to Irene gave me the impression that they were not fond of one another.
Are these cards and telegrams published anywhere?
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 22, 2012, 09:02:23 PM
Not in its entirely I think...
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Helen on June 23, 2012, 01:24:28 AM
The cards that Irene sent to Alix were interesting and written in a very warm tone - and actually made a more pleasant impression than the ones sent by Ella that I read. In no way, Irene's cards and the telegrams that Alix sent to Irene gave me the impression that they were not fond of one another.
Are these cards and telegrams published anywhere?
No, not that I know of.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eddie_uk on June 23, 2012, 10:49:29 AM
The cards that Irene sent to Alix were interesting and written in a very warm tone - and actually made a more pleasant impression than the ones sent by Ella that I read. In no way, Irene's cards and the telegrams that Alix sent to Irene gave me the impression that they were not fond of one another.
[/quote]

Richard Hough wrote that Alexandra was closest to Irene... :)
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 23, 2012, 03:46:52 PM
Very possible since they were closer in age and both mothers had sons suffered under hemophilia.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Clemence on April 21, 2014, 12:57:58 PM
Could someone explain why the book is so expensive?
 (Hardcover
from $200.00
10 Used from $200.00
5 New from $340.06
2 Collectible from $200.99)

!!!
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Helen on April 21, 2014, 03:56:09 PM
The book is also available at the price of EUR 35.00 from Van Hoogstraten, The Hague (http://www.hoogstraten.nl/theshop/index.php).
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on April 22, 2014, 06:26:29 AM
Art announced that in June they will be re-releasing the Four Graces in the style done with his new book Apapa--that means more photos and information.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: grandduchessella on April 22, 2014, 06:27:51 AM
Could someone explain why the book is so expensive?
 (Hardcover
from $200.00
10 Used from $200.00
5 New from $340.06
2 Collectible from $200.99)

!!!

Some people are just trying to make a buck is all. If the book has a relatively small (as opposed to a Stephen King or John Grisham) press run and so less copies are available, they try to jack up the price of their copies.
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Clemence on May 26, 2014, 02:50:08 PM
http://books.google.gr/books?id=dhSNaK7IFnIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.gr/books?id=dhSNaK7IFnIC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Has anyone read it?
Title: Re: The Four Graces – Queen Victoria's Granddaughters
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 27, 2014, 09:18:52 PM
Good book. A bit dated now...