Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Balkan Royal Families => Topic started by: KarlandZita on October 16, 2011, 11:51:26 AM

Title: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on October 16, 2011, 11:51:26 AM
I think it's time to start a new part, the previous thread with 34 pages already...

Olga here in a simple black dress combined with a classic pearl necklace, probably sitting in one of the salons of her palace in Belgrade :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/22830655ol.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=22830655ol.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on October 22, 2011, 07:18:55 AM
Princess Olga in traditionnal costume :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/73297410507676a.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=73297410507676a.jpg)

Courtesy Mary Evans.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 23, 2011, 02:44:38 PM
A great find. Is there a link to Mary Evans photo online ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 24, 2011, 07:43:50 AM
I googled it and i found it

http://www.maryevans.com/
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on November 06, 2011, 08:09:42 AM
Collage of Princess Olga:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/OlYug.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on November 14, 2011, 02:44:33 PM
Princess Paul in 1937 :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/525453olgazuidland.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=525453olgazuidland.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 14, 2011, 03:12:39 PM
Was she visiting a hospital ? Why was there a nurse with her ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on December 03, 2011, 07:29:30 AM
Princess Olga in London during a visit to her sister Marina , 1938 :

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/246429olgainlondon1938.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=246429olgainlondon1938.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2011, 12:11:20 PM
Olga was elegant & glamorous as usual. I wonder if the other lady was her lady in waiting ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on December 09, 2011, 04:35:18 PM
Olga was elegant & glamorous as usual. I wonder if the other lady was her lady in waiting ?

It is a friend of Princess Olga, Mrs. Ralli.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2012, 03:55:05 PM
Watching TV I stumbled on an interview given by Princess Elizabeth were she made available some parts of Princess Olga's diary in which she wrote about a private dinner in Buckingham palace and how the King George V,Queen Mary and her parents wanted a marriage between her and Prince of Wales(Edward VIII)...after dinner she attended a ball which she described in her diary as very boring,knowing virtually nobody and how she danced only 2 times and that was with Prince Paul who was the only spotlight for her that night...She wrote day after:"He promised to call at 14-30...now is 15-20.Maybe he completely forgot about me."

He called later and invited her to the cinema.Soon after that they became engaged-one Thursday as she wrote and married in 1923.They spent 5 weeks of their honeymoon in Italy on the estate of Princess Demidov,Prince Paul's aunt..."My happiness is growing every moment,every second and the time with him seems like passing away so quickly..."

Princess Elizabeth also showed a handkerchief of Grand Duchess Olga,daughter of Nicholas with her initials which was found in Yekaterinburg after they died...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on January 07, 2012, 04:09:42 PM
After that interview they showed footage of a documentary about Princess Olga in Home for elderly people where she spent her last days...She is always addressed as HRH the manager of that home stated that few days earlier Prince Charles paid a private visit to Princess Olga there where they spent 40 minutes talking...

Here are some pictures and screenshots of old Princess Olga:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/4.jpg)

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/3.jpg)

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/2.jpg)

In the last picture one could see THAT facial expression so much connected with her sister Marina and her niece Princess Alexandra...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2012, 12:29:17 PM
Dear Marc,

Do you the name of that programme ? Love to catch it, if possible. Thanks.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on January 14, 2012, 07:35:14 AM
Olga with her daughter in 1940 or 1941 :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/799027olgaelisabetav.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=799027olgaelisabetav.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 14, 2012, 01:12:38 PM
She looked very much like her father.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on February 09, 2012, 01:57:32 PM
Olga and Nicolas :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/853087pssolganicolas.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=853087pssolganicolas.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on February 09, 2012, 03:54:55 PM
Nice image ! Thanks for sharing. I think I have seen it before as an illustration in the original edition of "My Fifty Years", the memoirs of Olga's father, Prince Nicholas of Greece.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on February 25, 2012, 07:56:32 AM
Paul and Olga during their trip in Italy :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/436370italia.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=436370italia.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on February 25, 2012, 12:23:08 PM
The photo was taken in the train...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on March 23, 2012, 04:03:54 PM
Prince Paul's family in 1936 :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/205395family1936.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=205395family1936.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 24, 2012, 11:32:12 AM
Without Elisabeth...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on March 24, 2012, 11:51:09 AM
Without Elisabeth...

Because not yet born.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on March 24, 2012, 12:03:32 PM
Yes. Thanks.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on May 11, 2012, 01:54:03 PM
Paul and Olga with young King Peter of Yugoslavia :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/936449okapetarpaul.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=936449okapetarpaul.jpg)

I've always wondered about the relationship between the young king and the regent Paul, if they were really cordial and what prompted him to take power by forcing Prince Paul and his family go into exile.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on May 12, 2012, 12:31:50 PM

I've always wondered about the relationship between the young king and the regent Paul, if they were really cordial and what prompted him to take power by forcing Prince Paul and his family go into exile.


Paul and Peter had cordial relationship indeed...they often stuck together in exile,later in their life!

Paul and his family were forced to leave the country by the British government,as British government were in good relations with Serbian nationalists,who opposed Paul and whose main leader was Bora Mirkovic,Commander of Air Forces.

Months before they were exiled Churchill prepared everything and wrote that Paul and his regency were planning to take the complete power,which was,of course,not true...once he signed treaty of neutrality with Hitler,Paul was forced into exile...

It should be noted that he was left just 4 hours to prepare for his exile!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 13, 2012, 12:41:01 AM
I think Churchill abandoned Paul to his exile...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on May 14, 2012, 04:35:34 AM
I think Churchill abandoned Paul to his exile...

Yes,before that Churchill wanted Yugoslavia to attack Germany in order to keep them busy in the South/East,but Paul as a regent denied it and that's how the problem started...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 14, 2012, 09:56:01 AM
Paul had to think about his people. He was in a no win situation. His regency was a crown of thorns. It would have been better for the family to flee before the war. But he promised his cousin King Alexander to take care of business until his son is old enough to take the reins.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on May 14, 2012, 07:48:38 PM
Paul had to think about his people. He was in a no win situation. His regency was a crown of thorns. It would have been better for the family to flee before the war. But he promised his cousin King Alexander to take care of business until his son is old enough to take the reins.

Exactly,he thought about his people and that's why he refused Churchill in that matter...Yugoslavia was no match for the Germans and attacking Germany and proclaiming the war at that moment would be just self-destruction and he knew it ...while Churchill,clever as he was,wanted to use his Yugoslavia in political purposes!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 14, 2012, 11:47:45 PM
Yes. Because of it, Paul and his family paid a heavy price...exile, humiliation, loss of property...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on May 17, 2012, 09:01:04 AM
In fact, Peter II fell victim to the duplicity of Winston Churchill and the British government which, while giving the illusion of support and reassurance about the prospects of regaining his throne after the war, were counting the same time on Tito favored and, from behind, his rise in Yugoslavia.

Despite her English ancestry, or perhaps because of them, his mother Queen Marie, who lived in London in 1948, had well guessed these maneuvers unspoken and provided what was coming. She was concerned with the officers of the Royal Guards, urging them to save her son. For some time, it left her no see Peter and she worried especially since she knew how much her son was weak and easily influenced.

- The King must remain with his mother, he should not listen to Mr. Churchill, she still had entrusted to the officers.

But Peter was not to be concerned about his mother who died three years later.

And indeed, as Queen Marie could watch over him, he remained dignified. The day, preparing a fate that only served their interests, some British leaders parted the young King from his family, he fell into a total deprivation.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on May 17, 2012, 09:02:06 AM
In fact, Peter II fell victim to the duplicity of Winston Churchill and the British government which, while giving the illusion of support and reassurance about the prospects of regaining his throne after the war, were counting the same time on Tito favored and, from behind, his rise in Yugoslavia.

Despite her English ancestry, or perhaps because of them, his mother Queen Marie, who lived in London in 1948, had well guessed these maneuvers unspoken and provided what was coming. She was concerned with the officers of the Royal Guards, urging them to save her son. For some time, it left her no see Peter and she worried especially since she knew how much her son was weak and easily influenced.
 - The King must remain with his mother, he should not listen to Mr. Churchill, she still had entrusted to the officers.
But Peter was not to be concerned about his mother who died three years later.

And indeed, as Queen Marie could watch over him, he remained dignified. The day, preparing a fate that only served their interests, some British leaders parted the young King from his family, he fell into a total deprivation.

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 17, 2012, 10:00:26 AM
It is interesting to see how much Mignon was in the picture even though she was supposed to have "retired" to country life with her companion and young sons. It was perhaps a mistake of her not to take her daughter-in-law, Alexandra into her confidence when she had the chance. I wonder how Olga felt about Peter marrying into her own family even though her sister Marina was all for it. Even though Alexandra was part of the Greek Royal Family, it did not appear that she and Olga's family was particularly close. In fact her son Crown Prince Alexander and Olga's son Alexander did not really got along. 
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on May 17, 2012, 10:16:06 AM
It is interesting to see how much Mignon was in the picture even though she was supposed to have "retired" to country life with her companion and young sons. It was perhaps a mistake of her not to take her daughter-in-law, Alexandra into her confidence when she had the chance. I wonder how Olga felt about Peter marrying into her own family even though her sister Marina was all for it. Even though Alexandra was part of the Greek Royal Family, it did not appear that she and Olga's family was particularly close. In fact her son Crown Prince Alexander and Olga's son Alexander did not really got along. 

I know that Queen Marie of Yugoslavia was not favorable to the marriage of her son Peter with Alexandra of Greece, where her aloofness towards her daughter-in-law. As for the opinion of Olga, I don't know.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on May 19, 2012, 08:38:57 AM
Prince Paul with his sons Nicolas and Aleksander :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/923046pspaulsons.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=923046pspaulsons.jpg)

Nicolas, we know, has a tragic destiny.

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 19, 2012, 11:31:00 AM
Yes sadly...His Aunt Elisabeth (Countess Toerring) did came for his funeral in England.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on June 02, 2012, 05:30:20 AM
Princess Olga and her children on Royal balcony after 1938 :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/967026balcony1938.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=967026balcony1938.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 02, 2012, 07:34:43 PM
Yes...Only Paul is missing here...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on June 10, 2012, 10:34:41 AM
Olga and Paul relaxing on a yacht that belongs to them, perhaps, if they had one, since all European royal families ruling at the time had one :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/507351relaxing.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=507351relaxing.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 10, 2012, 12:53:30 PM
When was this taken and where ? Cowes ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on June 26, 2012, 06:17:18 PM
Princess Elizabeth in the Royal Box at Wimbledon:

http://imageupper.com/i/?S0300010100021D13407392182283130
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 26, 2012, 11:12:54 PM
Sitting beside her cousin Prince Michael of Kent.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on July 06, 2012, 04:46:14 PM
Princess Olga with her grandchildren :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/33007310436032703.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=33007310436032703.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 06, 2012, 07:08:43 PM
Was the baby Catherine Oxenburg ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on July 09, 2012, 03:30:43 AM
Was the baby Catherine Oxenburg ?

The baby couldn't be Catherine OxEnberg (family name is with E,not with U,just like it's BattenbErg,and not BattenbUrg) , as her sister Christina is 2 years younger than her... so,the baby is Christina...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 09, 2012, 01:29:32 PM
Thanks ! Was she close to Elisabeth's kids ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2012, 10:17:21 AM
Thanks ! Was she close to Elisabeth's kids ?

Christina is Elizabeth's daughter...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 11, 2012, 10:32:06 AM
Yes was Olga close to her and her sister and half brother ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on July 11, 2012, 10:53:39 AM
For a royal sense of closeness-she was,although Elizabeth's children never lived near,so we can't say how close they exactly were...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 11, 2012, 11:16:49 AM
According to Catherine Oxenberg. They were not that close.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on July 12, 2012, 07:18:09 PM
According to Catherine Oxenberg. They were not that close.

In an interview on Serbian Tv she once said that they were close and that she used to take her diamonds and wear it as a child...so,I guess,we'll never know the exact truth!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 13, 2012, 01:35:33 AM
Maybe when she was a child. While growing up, she did not have the same closeness with Olga in part due to the volatile relationship between her mother & grandmother.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on July 15, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Prince and Princess Paul of Yugoslavia received by Adolf Hitler during their visit to Berlin in June 1939 :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/388442olgapauljuly39.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=388442olgapauljuly39.jpg)

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/879265olgaingermany.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=879265olgaingermany.jpg)

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 15, 2012, 02:19:52 PM
Great Photos ! I read Olga's sister Elizabeth, Countess Toerring was there to welcome them in Berlin too. 
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on July 16, 2012, 05:27:33 PM
Great Photos ! I read Olga's sister Elizabeth, Countess Toerring was there to welcome them in Berlin too. 

No trace of Elizabeth on photos taken on that occasion. I wonder what impression Olga felt in contact with Hitler, meanwhile, had to appreciate the beauty, charm and elegance of the young woman. The two women he most admired at the time were Princess Marie Jose of Savoy and The Duchess of Windsor.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 16, 2012, 11:31:34 PM
I think Olga was on par with those other two women in dress and style. Poor Malfalda was not in the same category.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on July 21, 2012, 05:28:06 AM
Another photo of the trip to Berlin :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/681505paulolgahitler.png) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=681505paulolgahitler.png)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 22, 2012, 08:56:21 AM
They do look very chummy together although Olga always looks a bit more distant than her husband. 
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on July 29, 2012, 11:32:21 AM
Still in 1939, Olga and Paul with mussolini during their trip to Italy :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/270414pavlekaradjordjevicmuss.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=270414pavlekaradjordjevicmuss.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 29, 2012, 11:49:18 AM
I wonder what they thought of him.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on August 04, 2012, 05:27:08 AM
Twenties portrait :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/958787pssyugoolga.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=958787pssyugoolga.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2012, 06:08:27 AM
Twenties portrait :

Love the photo...

What is more important is that Prince Pavle(Paul),Princess Olga and Prince Nicholas,after all,will be reburied in Oplenac,where most of the family members are buried.Their remains will be transferred from Lausanne to the Karadjordjevic family Mausoleum.The reburial should take place at 6th of October,on anniversary-100 years after finishing the Church of St.George.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2012, 06:37:54 AM
Meanwhile,a photo of Barbara with her mother,both wearing tiaras:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Barb.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on August 04, 2012, 09:08:34 AM
Meanwhile,a photo of Barbara with her mother,both wearing tiaras:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Barb.jpg)

I find it significant that Prince Alexander and his wife Barbara still retain the historic jewels of the Princess Olga, instead of selling them as do many royals today unfortunately.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 04, 2012, 10:41:24 AM
Quite a lot of jewels from Princess Olga's collection had been sold through the years. They were able to hold on to some important pieces.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on August 04, 2012, 12:01:36 PM

I find it significant that Prince Alexander and his wife Barbara still retain the historic jewels of the Princess Olga, instead of selling them as do many royals today unfortunately.


Well,unfortunately,I have heard that Barbara has sold this tiara to buy her son a flat,so... :(
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on August 05, 2012, 11:13:32 AM
A shame not to have at least kept this piece of great value, both historically and family.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 05, 2012, 12:57:11 PM
Sad. I think they sold the Cartier one too, the one left to Olga by her mother Helen.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on August 05, 2012, 06:36:46 PM
A shame not to have at least kept this piece of great value, both historically and family.


Well,they probably don't need it as they are not invited to many such events...

I met Prince Dushan several years ago and he told me that,they have very plain relationship with reigning royals,for example,Queen Elizabeth II...he said that they exchange greetings and cards and wishes for some big dates,but that's about it...He also said that everything goes through the secretary and he described QE II a a bit "cold",whatever that meant in particular...

He also said that they are in very good terms with Liechtenstein royals,as his mother Barbara is a first cousin of Fürstin Marie von und zu Liechtenstin,also cousin of Hans Adam II and was living in Vaduz after WW II,when they fled from Mährisch-Sternberg!

Basically,all this means that they are not invited to many tiara events,so why should they keep something very valuable which doesn't have any particular use?

Yes,I am sad because of that too,but I think that they think like that...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 05, 2012, 11:30:44 PM
I don't think QE II was very close to her European relatives except perhaps those of her husband. Most of those mattered are gone. Princess Olga was quite close to the Queen Mother because of the goodwill from her husband. The next generations became more and more distant.

I agree that a flat for her son is more important than a bauble.

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on August 06, 2012, 07:41:54 AM
I don't think QE II was very close to her European relatives except perhaps those of her husband. Most of those mattered are gone. Princess Olga was quite close to the Queen Mother because of the goodwill from her husband. The next generations became more and more distant.

I agree that a flat for her son is more important than a bauble.



Prince Paul was very close to Queen Mother as they belonged to the same circle of friends during his life in UK and in one of the books about him there is a photo of him with than Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon while he was still a young student...There were also rumors that he was romantically attached to her...after that both of them married,but remained close!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 06, 2012, 08:39:35 AM
Yes. Both Paul & Olga remained close to QM when they were allowed into the fold after WW II. The new generation did not have the ties that their parents had. That is the reason for the "cold" that one mentioned. They just belong to the same club "royalty". That is all.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on August 07, 2012, 06:34:38 AM
The new thing is that Princess Elizabeth will, based on Wall Street Journal reports, return her US passport and will stop being American citizen...

Here is a part of the article about famous people who will return their US passport:

" Another renouncer was socialite Elizabeth Karageorgevic, known as Princess Elizabeth of Yugoslavia. Once engaged to Richard Burton, she is also a human-rights activist and former presidential candidate in Serbia. According to her daughter, the actress and former “Dynasty” cast member Catherine Oxenberg, the princess now lives in her native Belgrade and made the decision to expatriate for emotional reasons that included going home. "

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 07, 2012, 12:19:12 PM
I think it would be the first step for the princess into being a Serb again. Although her daughter Catherine is still a US Citizen as a working actress.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on August 07, 2012, 05:48:48 PM
I think it would be the first step for the princess into being a Serb again. Although her daughter Catherine is still a US Citizen as a working actress.

Eric,she is already Serbian citizen and has Serbian passport for years now...

She was candidate at presidential elections few years ago and she couldn't be that without being a Serbian citizen already...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 07, 2012, 07:24:01 PM
I think she wanted to be more Serbian. Giving up her US Citizenship will make her appear more like one of the people than ever.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on August 26, 2012, 08:17:31 AM
Romantic portrait by Cecil Beaton in 1940 :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/992111cropwm.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=992111cropwm.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on August 26, 2012, 12:06:09 PM
The famous sitting with her and Marina. Strange that Wooley (Elisabeth Countess Toerring) wasn't invited to this glamour shot.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on September 01, 2012, 07:28:29 AM
Princess Paul visiting french school in 1935 :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/430446visitingecolefrancaise1935.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=430446visitingecolefrancaise1935.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 01, 2012, 11:26:35 AM
Did she went to that school ? Or for her children ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on September 05, 2012, 01:34:05 PM
Did she went to that school ? Or for her children ?

Rather, it is a protocol visit with children at this school. The fact that it is a French school is not trivial when you know that King Alexander I got killed on French soil a few months earlier. By doing so, the Yugoslav government probably wanted to show that there was no resentment on his part and he wanted to maintain good relations with France.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 05, 2012, 01:54:43 PM
Thanks. No wonder Olga's hat looked like a bit of mourning to me. Like something their Aunt Sophie of Greece would have worn.
Title: Lausanne: Exhumation of Prince Regent Paul and Family
Post by: Eurohistory on September 29, 2012, 01:50:48 PM
This weekend the remains of Prince Regent Paul, Princess Olga and their son Prince Nicholas began their log-awaited return to the homeland. Yesterday morning the coffins were exhumed and a religious ceremony followed.

Today, the remains begin their long trek back to Oplenac, the Karageorgevic Family Crypt. Their burial, organized by the Serbian government at the urging of Princess Elizabeth and Prince Alexander, is to be held a week from today.

http://erhj.blogspot.com/2012/09/lausanne-exhumation-of-yugoslav-royal.html (http://erhj.blogspot.com/2012/09/lausanne-exhumation-of-yugoslav-royal.html)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 30, 2012, 02:08:17 PM
Glad the family was allowed to return home, although I got the feeling that Prince Paul would have been equally happy to have been buried in England, a country after his own heart.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 05, 2012, 06:58:15 AM
Coffins have arrived in Belgrade.Among many Serbian royals present,one could also see Archduchess Helen,niece of Princess Olga,standing between Elizabeth and Barbara:

http://www.royalfamily.org/events/2012/oktobar/4/photo_story.html
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2012, 09:49:39 AM
Thanks for posting the link. Great photos. Glad Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia/Yugoslavia also attended. There had been so many disagreements between himself and his cousin Prince Alexander. But I think his father King Peter would have wanted him there since he was very devoted to both Prince Paul & Princess Olga, his Uncle & Aunt.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 06, 2012, 06:20:51 AM
Thanks for posting the link. Great photos. Glad Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia/Yugoslavia also attended.

Vast majority of the Serbian Royal family attended along with some foreign ones like Prince Michael of Kent,Prince Nicholas of Greece and Archduchess Helen...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2012, 10:03:34 AM
Indeed. I think Archduchess Helen & Prince Michael of Kent were both close to their Aunt (Princess Olga of Yugoslavia).
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 06, 2012, 09:00:31 PM
Yugoslavia prince laid to rest in Serbia

Updated: 06:07, Sunday October 7, 2012


The remains of Prince Paul of Yugoslavia and his family have been laid to rest in the royal family's mausoleum in Serbia following a political rehabilitation in his homeland.

After being exhumed from a cemetery in Lausanne, Switzerland, the remains of Prince Paul, also known as Duke Pavle Karadjordjevic, his wife Olga and son Nikola, were placed in the mausoleum at Oplenac in central Serbia on Saturday.

The ceremony, attended by President Tomislav Nikolic and other top officials along with several hundred royalist supporters, was broadcast on the RTS state television.

Duke Pavle ruled Yugoslavia as Prince Regent from the 1934 assassination of King Aleksandar I until the collapse of the kingdom in the (northern) spring of 1941.

Pavle and Aleksandar were brothers, but Aleksandar's son and heir Peter, born in 1923, was too young to accede on his father's death.

The royal family, including the duke, fled Yugoslavia on March 27, 1941. The country emerged from the war as a communist federation under the rule of Josip Broz Tito.

The new communist regime banned the return of the royal family and confiscated their property.

A state commission declared him a criminal by decree in September 1945 having accused him of breaching the constitution and contributing to World War II by allegedly concluding a deal with the Germans before the conflict.

In December 2011, a Belgrade court rehabilitated the duke, quashing the commission's verdict.

The duke lived in exile in France, near Paris, where he died in 1976 at the age of 83.

Peter's son Aleksandar II, who was born and lived in exile in London, returned to Serbia in late 2000 but lives as a private individual.

According to the law, the duke's heirs are entitled to ask for the restitution of property.

The duke was known for his passion for arts. He donated a number of art works, including paintings by Peter Paul Rubens, Rembrandt, Claude Monet and Vincent Van Gogh to Serbia's National Museum


link http://www.skynews.com.au/politics/article.aspx?id=802986
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 06, 2012, 09:09:55 PM
one of the cuffins being removed from their former grave, said to be that of Princess Olga.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/seberianroyalty.jpg)

The service of reburial
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/MMPC/serbianroyal.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 06, 2012, 11:57:46 PM
I hope they can all rest in peace now. I wonder if they negotiate a final resting place for Alexander & Elizabeth (brother & sister of Prince Nicholas of Yugoslavia, who died in England and was reburied with his parents) near their parents & brother when their time comes ? 
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: slavona on October 07, 2012, 06:17:56 AM
Duke Pavle and Alexandre I were brothers? I thought they were  distant relative. Alexander  has a strange brother, Goerge, and a sister Helena.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 07, 2012, 11:27:37 AM
^ Its a mess up in the article, they were first cousins Paul and Alexander I.


Eric - I dont know possibly.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2012, 12:02:40 PM
^ Its a mess up in the article, they were first cousins Paul and Alexander I.


Eric - I dont know possibly.

It's a mess up for foreign language speakers,if the article is translated from Serbian...

In Serbia,cousins are called just very distant,distant relatives...first,second,third cousins are called brother,sister even though they are not in reality...

For example,Prince Michael of Kent and Archduchess Helen in Serbia would be called brother and sister from an Aunt to Princess Elizabeth meaning it's a brother/sister she has through her Aunt...saying first cousin would be a little bit out of language context as we have terms for every degree of relation,even for the ones in law!

It's a little bit hard to explain as English language doesn't have the terms for some of the relations we know...and they are just not translatable...similar as under the family law the title for Princess Elizabeth is not a Princess but Fürstin(Kneginja) of Serbia/Yugoslavia,like for all descendants of Prince Paul,but in English all of them are Princes and Princesses as the language doesn't have any equivalent term...

Even Elizabeth's name is not really Elizabeth as it is only an English translation of Jelisaveta,which is her real given name!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Mandie, the Gothic Empress on October 07, 2012, 12:18:59 PM
^ indeed Marc. however i got it off an English site, possibly they got it off Serbian one. lol
I see, and very intersting. thank you for the info. :)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 07, 2012, 12:27:22 PM
^ indeed Marc. however i got it off an English site, possibly they got it off Serbian one. lol
I see, and very intersting. thank you for the info. :)

No problem :)

I assumed it's translated because Paul was never called a Duke or referred as such in Serbian language,but Knez which in English can only be translated as Prince.Duke,Prince and Knez are in Serbian different titles just like they have in Germany...Equivalent to Herzog,Prinz and Fürst...

For example while Serbia was a Princedom Head of the ruling family was Knez(Fürst),while other members were Princes and Princesses.When Serbia became a monarchy Head of the ruling family was King,his eldest son had the title of Prince the Heir to the Throne(King Peter II during his fathers reign),while other sons of the King held the title Kraljevic(which means Princes who are sons of the King,but not direct Heirs such as Tomislav or Andrej) and only Princes were rest of the main line family members(for example,sons of Kraljevic who is not an Heir,sons of Tomislav and Andrej).Knez/Kneginja were reserved for the collateral branch members(descendants of King Peters brother Arsen) of the ruling family with the predicate HH,only later after WWII they were upgraded to HRH...So,even during the time of being a regent Prince Paul was only HH.As in Serbia there were no noble titles given,the title of Duke was only military connected title given often to the Army generals and were not hereditary...

Hope it's not all that confusing ;)

The translated articles can be confusing due to differences and lack of some terms we all have in our languages which are sometimes not that translatable and hardly understanding for others...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 07, 2012, 02:02:47 PM
Thanks for explaining the differences of titles Marc. I always thought that Paul & King Alexander was distant cousins. The article confused me too.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 08, 2012, 04:15:07 AM
Thanks for explaining the differences of titles Marc. I always thought that Paul & King Alexander was distant cousins. The article confused me too.

No problem :)

They were first cousins as their fathers were brothers(Peter and Arsen),but in Serbia they were called brother(he has) from an Uncle or simply brother,without any mention of degree of family relation...If one is a real brother(like Alexander I and George have been) he would be often mentioned as "born brother" to distinguish him from some other cousin also called brother...and this term is literally translated to English...that's why the article,if written by the Serbian Press can be confusing for others...

Only distant,distant relative is in Serbia called just a cousin...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: slavona on October 08, 2012, 04:31:03 AM
Thanks for explaining!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 08, 2012, 07:38:11 AM
I don't know that the spelling used in Elizabeth's name is different in Serbian. Always thought she was named after her Aunt Wooley (Countess Toerring-Jettenbach).
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 08, 2012, 08:59:26 AM
I don't know that the spelling used in Elizabeth's name is different in Serbian. Always thought she was named after her Aunt Wooley (Countess Toerring-Jettenbach).

Yes,her original name is Jelisaveta which is translated Elizabeth as there is no other option,but in Serbia names Jelisaveta and Elizabeta(which would be more correct translated version of Elizabeth) are two different names and exist on their own...If one is Jelisaveta she is not called Elizabeta and vice versa...

If you go to Serbia and ask for Princess Elizabeta,nobody would have an idea who is it,but if you say Princess Jelisaveta,everybody would know...

When you read Serbian newspapers Queen Elizabeth II is always called and translated as "kraljica Elizabeta",never "kraljica Jelisaveta" which would sound ridiculous,as to us it's a different name and nobody would have guessed who is it...

Similar like in many books and articles we see Princess Helena Petrovna or Elena Petrovna(daughter of King Peter I),but in reality her name was Jelena...and again,in Serbia-Jelena,Elena and Helena do exist,but as different names!If one is Helena,she is not called Elena and if one is Jelena she is not called Helena so they can't be confused...and in English it's just under one name!

Also,in Serbia terms like Princess Paul or Princess (husbands name) doesn't exist.Women are always known and called by their own names which can be funny when they translate Princess Michael of Kent.It sounds like there has been a mistake,as to us that kind of terms are not known and she would be always Princess Marie-Christine,which again is not correct due to British Royal House Law.Under Karadjordjevic House Law every female member that marries into the family get the title of Princess with her own name after,so our either state or royal House Law doesn't recognize the term Princess husbands name...always her own!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 08, 2012, 09:33:32 AM
So,just to add,calling Olga Princess Paul is not legally correct as her title is connected to Royal House Law she married into...

Calling her Princess Paul would be like calling Princess Marie-Christine of Kent instead of Princess Michael of Kent,as there is no such under British RF Law...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 09, 2012, 10:19:11 AM
Thanks for the info. I guess Olga liked that form better than the other. She & Paul could have chosen Elizabeta instead of Jelisaveta.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 09, 2012, 10:45:42 AM
Thanks for the info. I guess Olga liked that form better than the other. She & Paul could have chosen Elizabeta instead of Jelisaveta.

I guess,but Jelisaveta is a bit more Serbian,so I guess that played the part!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on October 13, 2012, 07:31:13 AM
Princes Nicolas and Alexander :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/183423nicolasalexander4.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=183423nicolasalexander4.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 15, 2012, 10:16:33 AM
Charming picture of the two brothers. I wonder what was Alexander feeling seeing his brothers coffin with his parents lowering.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 21, 2012, 07:42:59 AM
Here is a video about Catherine Oxenberg and her husband buying her a Tacori tiara,starting at 0:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nppAnmE0p3I&list=LPg0uTy-oUfIo&index=6&feature=plcp

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 21, 2012, 09:52:55 PM
She has a look of a Princess from her Danish side.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 22, 2012, 05:32:54 AM
She has a look of a Princess from her Danish side.

I would also say that she has that kind of face bone structure...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 22, 2012, 11:14:58 AM
Indeed. She had Olga's cheek bones. Very different from her mother's dark looks.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 24, 2012, 06:26:19 AM
Very different from her mother's dark looks.

Her father always said that she was the spitting image of her grandmother Aurora...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 24, 2012, 08:37:56 AM
That makes sense. I thought she was the splitting image of him.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 25, 2012, 05:47:26 AM
He thought both,in terms of looks and especially in terms of the same "flying free spirit" and if one knows just a little bit of story about Princess Aurora's life one would notice the similarities  ;)

Princess Elizabeth often says that in her in her interviews...

I always wondered has Prince Paul ever met his half-sister Countess Helene Aurora di Noghera and has there ever been any contact between two sides of the family...

Princess Aurora was a very scandalous lady at that time...there was a talk of her giving twins during her marriage to Prince Arsen,but he denied the paternity and didn't want to accept them.Don't know what happened afterwards with them.

And again,Prince Paul lived with her in Sankt Peterburg just one year after his birth...But,as she wanted to be free of any kind of obligation towards the child she had,she gave him to his uncle then Prince Peter(later King) to raise him as his father Arsen was too busy womanizing and gambling in Paris,but he has seen his father much often then his mother whom he has seen just two times after that...

He recollects from his memory that at one point he was taken to some ship which stopped so that an unknown woman could hug him for a moment.He later found out that it was his mother.

Princess Aurora had many relationships and married already pregnant(with Helene) to her second husband Count Nicola Giovanni Maria di Noghera...Unfortunately,she died very young at the age of 30...



Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2012, 10:23:27 AM
I think Olga never bargained for a daughter that is so like her dead mother-in-law.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 25, 2012, 11:58:42 AM
I think Olga never bargained for a daughter that is so like her dead mother-in-law.

Nor Grand Duchess Helen...One of the main reasons why she didn't like her son in law was his mothers ancestry,as she didn't belong to a sovereign family and that her family was a subject in the Empire of HER family!She thought that kind of ancestry was beneath her daughters standard,but the only thing she did like about Prince Paul was that,at least,he was rich and had a lot of money!

Unlike Prince Nicholas who was very fond of Paul and often discussed many subjects with him,mainly art!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 25, 2012, 01:21:29 PM
You are totally correct. Paul was rich and comfortable with a portfolio of art, real estate and cash. Had he stayed out of politics, his life would have been much less chaotic. Indeed he was a man pf refined taste and love art & beauty, very much the same sentiment with Prince Nicholas of Greece.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on October 26, 2012, 01:32:21 PM
Olga and Paul with Duke and Duchess of Kent during a visit to London :

(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/659986pauliolga1938.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=659986pauliolga1938.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 26, 2012, 02:28:13 PM
The two couples were very close to each other in taste.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: perdita on December 09, 2012, 11:17:52 PM
I think it's time to start a new part, the previous thread with 34 pages already...

Olga here in a simple black dress combined with a classic pearl necklace, probably sitting in one of the salons of her palace in Belgrade :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/22830655ol.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=22830655ol.jpg)

Uncanny expression of Princess Olga captured in the late 30s by LIFE Magazine's premier photojournalist Alfred Eisenstaedt. A moment of prescience with respect to the misfortunes that await her family during the war & in it's aftermath.

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: perdita on December 10, 2012, 12:05:53 AM
They do look very chummy together although Olga always looks a bit more distant than her husband.  

Call it expedient diplomacy. Roosevelt & Churchill looked VERY chummy with "Uncle Joe" (Stalin)--the greatest mass killer in history.

The difference between Prince Paul vs. defenders of freedom & democray Roosevelt and Churchill is that Prince Paul didn't take Poland from Hitler at the cost of a world war & 62 million dead only to GIVE Poland (& half of Europe) 6 years later to the same International outlaw Soviet dictator who with his cohort Hitler started the war in the first place by invading Poland.

America's Roosevelt & Truman were the chief instigaters behind the unprecedented Yalta betrayal. Team Player Churchill opposed but capitulated.


Upshot. The British Empire destroyed. The Soviet Empire created.


True to form history dictates the vanquished Prince Paul the traitor & the victorious "leaders of the free world" Roosevelt and Chruchill World War Two's heroes.

Cute.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 10, 2012, 08:51:25 AM
I Think Paul was a victim of circumstance. Had King Alexander not died, he could have lived in comfort in England with his British friends. Yet he cannot resist his destiny with Hitler.

Princess Nicholas of Greece was appalled by what Olga had to go through and even at one point ask her daughter to leave her husband.

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on December 11, 2012, 07:54:59 AM
Had King Alexander not died, he could have lived in comfort in England with his British friends.

Doesn't have to be that way...

During his studies Paul just loved living in England,but when his cousin Alexander became the King Paul wanted to feel useful for his country and do something,lets say have a "job" as royals could have,but Alexander wanted everything to be in his hands and treated Paul as an incapable figure who could not help...

To avoid humiliation of being constantly treated like "the little incapable brother",Paul traveled with his wife,trying to avoid as much as he can that kind of situation...He would often write to Alexander begging for a role in the country,but Alexander felt that the whole power was in his hands...

Only in years near the end of his life Alexander felt more connected to Paul,his family and started to trust him more which connected him to the country...At that time he just enjoyed filling his art museum(later National Museum) and inviting guest to Belgrade...

So,with a useful role in the monarchy Paul wouldn't be reduced to being an English county gentleman...as much as he loved England...

Unfortunately,as you say,he was the victim of politics...As much as he loved Britain,they "deserted him" when he most needed them.They sacrificed him as for political reasons...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 11, 2012, 03:59:44 PM
Yes. But at least the Queen Mother remained a friend as much as possible. In later years Olga stayed with the Queen Mother at Clarence House when she visited London.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on February 07, 2013, 06:14:05 AM


I always wondered has Prince Paul ever met his half-sister Countess Helene Aurora di Noghera and has there ever been any contact between two sides of the family...

Princess Aurora was a very scandalous lady at that time...there was a talk of her giving twins during her marriage to Prince Arsen,but he denied the paternity and didn't want to accept them.Don't know what happened afterwards with them.

And again,Prince Paul lived with her in Sankt Peterburg just one year after his birth...But,as she wanted to be free of any kind of obligation towards the child she had,she gave him to his uncle then Prince Peter(later King) to raise him as his father Arsen was too busy womanizing and gambling in Paris,but he has seen his father much often then his mother whom he has seen just two times after that...

He recollects from his memory that at one point he was taken to some ship which stopped so that an unknown woman could hug him for a moment.He later found out that it was his mother.

Princess Aurora had many relationships and married already pregnant(with Helene) to her second husband Count Nicola Giovanni Maria di Noghera...Unfortunately,she died very young at the age of 30...





I've recently read a Russian bio on Princess Aurora and there were some rare facts on her! She really did have twins in 1895 while being still married to Prince Arsen. The father of those twins (2 sons - Nikolai and Sergei) was Count Manteifel whom Aurora wanted to marry but he obviously didn't want. One of those twins, Nikolai, survived and lived until 1933 but his life was a mess - alhocol and drugs...
Aurora also had 4 children from Count Noghera, 1 daughter and 3 sons, but only daughter survived and married (sorry, don't remember whom).

But the most interesting fact that possibly Prince Pavle had a twin-sister or sister Alexandra, born 1893 or 1894 year. Aurora in her correspondence of 1894-1897 years often mentioned 2 children - "Pavlik" (Pavle) and "Alexandra".
Is there in any Serbian sources some mention of Pavle's sister Alexandra?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on February 07, 2013, 09:40:11 AM

I've recently read a Russian bio on Princess Aurora and there were some rare facts on her! She really did have twins in 1895 while being still married to Prince Arsen. The father of those twins (2 sons - Nikolai and Sergei) was Count Manteifel whom Aurora wanted to marry but he obviously didn't want. One of those twins, Nikolai, survived and lived until 1933 but his life was a mess - alhocol and drugs...
Aurora also had 4 children from Count Noghera, 1 daughter and 3 sons, but only daughter survived and married (sorry, don't remember whom).

But the most interesting fact that possibly Prince Pavle had a twin-sister or sister Alexandra, born 1893 or 1894 year. Aurora in her correspondence of 1894-1897 years often mentioned 2 children - "Pavlik" (Pavle) and "Alexandra".
Is there in any Serbian sources some mention of Pavle's sister Alexandra?


The twins were mentioned somewhere,but just briefly-in context that Prince Arsen didn't want to recognize the paternity...but unfortunately,from Serbian resources nothing is known about Alexandra :-( It would be interesting to know something more for sure...

Out of all Aurora's children from her second husband,only Countess Helena Aurora di Noghera survived,she did marry Gaston Joseph Tissot(1891-1945) and they had issue...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on May 27, 2013, 05:28:54 PM
Princess Elizabeth,dressed for one of the festivities during the crowning of Queen Elizabeth II:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Album%201/jelisaveta_zpsa2eb6d9f.jpg) (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/auersperg21/media/Album%201/jelisaveta_zpsa2eb6d9f.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 27, 2013, 06:54:56 PM
She looks almost angelic in this picture. :-)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Paul on May 28, 2013, 01:54:50 AM
In that pose and that photo style, she strongly resembles Isabella Rossellini.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on May 28, 2013, 02:27:33 PM
Actually Elisabeth was the carbon copy of her father Prince Paul...a more feminine version. Isabella's dark looks came from her father Roberto too.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on June 06, 2013, 10:25:25 PM
Actually Elisabeth was the carbon copy of her father Prince Paul...a more feminine version. Isabella's dark looks came from her father Roberto too.

Lately,she has had the chance to meet Pierce Brosnan,former James Bond-agent 007,as her granddaughter India Riven Oxenberg works as his personal assistant and also has a role in the movie “November man”.Apart from that she will also have a role in the movie "Three Days To Kill" with Kevin Kostner...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marlene on June 07, 2013, 10:31:33 AM
The movie is being filmed in Belgrade, many of the cast and crew have been staying at the Hyatt ... had drinks with several crew members, and was in the hot tub at the same time as 2 of stuntmen.   A week ago Sat now, we were getting ready to get on the bus for the ride to Topola as a part of the cortege, a police escort with the movie camera shooting was in front of us and our police escort got behind them ... I might be in the movie :)

Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 08, 2013, 02:02:06 AM
Interesting...Was she the star ? I know she did film projects...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on July 28, 2013, 12:21:13 PM
Portrait of Princess Paul of Yugoslavia in 1929 :

(http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/366284olgaportrait1929.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=366284olgaportrait1929.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 29, 2013, 04:37:28 PM
I hope this is not from Arturo Beeche's site. He is very strict with his images. A very beautiful & glamorous shot of Olga.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: serbianna on August 09, 2013, 08:01:46 AM
To begin with, let me introduce myself, as I'm new here. I'm serbianna.



I am troubled with a dilemma regarding the divorce of Prince Arsen and Princess Aurora - Prince Paul's parents. Some members here noted they divorced because Aurora bore twin sons in 1895. However, another document describing their divorce says she bore only one child (who was the cause of the divorce and whom Arsen renounced). The document in question is the statement of Dragomir Stojadinovich (the younger brother of famous Milan Stojadinovich, the Prime Minister during the period of Prince Paul's regency) given to the UDBA agents (UDBA was something like Tito's secret police, a socialist Gestapo if you will). quote the very sentences mentioning the 'bastard' child:

"Arsen je tada preko jednog francuskog lista dao izjavu da se razvodi od svoje žene i da dete rođenou tom braku ne priznaje za svoje".

Translated from Serbian to English:

"Arsen, back then, stated in one French newspaper that he was divorcing from his wife and that he claimed a child born in that marriage not to be his".


To make the entire matter all the more confusing - Dragomir intended to hint that this bastard child whom Prince Arsen renounce was - Prince Paul! This is a very scarcely documented story, and I never read anything about it in either Prince Paul's or Prince Arsen's official biographies. Does anyone of you happen to be familiar with it?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on August 17, 2013, 07:01:04 AM
Olga and Paul playing tennis in Cannes, around 1925 :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/136833tennisincannes1925.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=136833tennisincannes1925.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: KarlandZita on September 28, 2013, 08:50:09 AM
Princess Paul in court dress during twenties :

(http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/998041olgaannes20.jpg) (http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=998041olgaannes20.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on September 28, 2013, 09:23:36 AM
A video about Catherine Oxenberg and her husband choosing a tiara for her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nppAnmE0p3I

Only first few seconds of the video are in Serbian,the rest is in English.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on September 30, 2013, 05:29:54 PM
Catherine could have gotten one from her mother. 
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 01, 2013, 07:25:44 AM
Catherine could have gotten one from her mother. 

Her mother doesn't have any...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 01, 2013, 01:21:35 PM
HRH Princess Elisabeth of Yugoslavia does not have a tiara ?
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 01, 2013, 02:44:14 PM
LOL!! that was a fun video!! i had no idea that Casper van Dien loved so much tiaras...more than Catherine does!!

Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 01, 2013, 07:25:53 PM
HRH Princess Elisabeth of Yugoslavia does not have a tiara ?

No,she doesn't have a tiara...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 02, 2013, 11:03:46 AM
I saw her in one many times. Catherine now has her own tiara. Nice ! ;-)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 02, 2013, 02:56:34 PM
This is the tiara you are talking about? it was loaned

(Image courtesy of Marc)

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/tiara-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 02, 2013, 06:28:40 PM
No..I saw her in another. I was surprised that her mother did not gave her one.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on October 03, 2013, 11:18:57 AM
Meaybe you meant the crystal tiaras used by her ?

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=5093.90
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 03, 2013, 07:51:25 PM
Yes. She does wear those.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 04, 2013, 09:02:56 AM
Yes. She does wear those.

Eric,this is in fact one tiara,made of crystal...

http://www.svetkristala.co.rs/
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 04, 2013, 10:50:25 AM
A tiara of crystals is still a tiara. Serena Linley wore a wooden one made by her husband.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on October 04, 2013, 10:12:05 PM
A tiara of crystals is still a tiara. Serena Linley wore a wooden one made by her husband.

Not owned by her,but loaned to advertise :P
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on October 05, 2013, 07:09:58 PM
I think she could afford a crystal tiara in all seriousness.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on March 28, 2014, 04:29:32 PM
Prince Pavle as a baby with his mother Princess Aurora:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/BabyP_zps503fcdeb.jpg) (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/auersperg21/media/BabyP_zps503fcdeb.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on March 29, 2014, 12:50:05 AM
It's notable that in the chorus of those  who blamed Aurora in all sins there are few voices in support of her. I was surprised when I was reading in the correspondence of Sophia Demidova San-Donato (wife of Elim Demidov, half-brother of Aurora) nice words about Aurora. Sophia says that her sister-in-law was a kind-hearted and good person without any bad intentions but with just unlucky fate, "I always set her high" - the exact words of Demidova.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on March 29, 2014, 09:01:05 AM
Well,if we speak about being a parent,it's not just about the mother,but about both parents...His father,Prince Arsen,left him in the care of his brother,while he spent time gambling in Paris...

In the biography of Prince Paul,he speaks about two meetings he had with his mother after she gave him away when he was a baby...One of them was when he was summoned to the dock where a ship stopped,a woman came out and held him firmly hugging for few minutes and soon left going back to the ship...it was the last time he saw his mother...

He was always telling his daughter,Princess Elizabeth that she inherited her character and restless spirit from her grandmother Aurora.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Svetabel on March 29, 2014, 09:24:34 AM


He was always telling his daughter,Princess Elizabeth that she inherited her character and restless spirit from her grandmother Aurora.

Actually that remark of him sounds strange as he never had a chance to know her closer, so his opinion on her was not exactly his but of those people who knew Aurora personally and possibly they were not objective.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on March 29, 2014, 10:20:51 AM
Yes,probably from his aunt Moina,who,sort of adopted him and left almost everything to him...He spent a great deal of time with her,so no wonder where he could hear about his mother...

Also,it is interesting that he fondly remembers those few times he saw his mother...yet,at that moment he was still a child and he didn't know who "the woman" was...

I always wondered if he,or his descendants ever had any kind of contact with his half-sister Countess Aurora Helena di Noghera...after all,she was his closest blood kin and they were born only 5 years apart...
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on June 14, 2014, 07:20:52 PM
Princess Olga with her niece Princess Alexandra of Kent:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/AlexOlga_zpsa366ad00.jpg) (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/auersperg21/media/AlexOlga_zpsa366ad00.jpg.html)

Princess Olga wearing Greek Ruby tiara with her daughter Princess Elizabeth in Dior creations:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/Olga_zpsc711ea56.jpg) (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/auersperg21/media/Olga_zpsc711ea56.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on June 14, 2014, 11:43:47 PM
That s not Olga, But Marina

(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg591/MrsBriDavis//YBR/YBR1908.jpg)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 15, 2014, 08:40:54 PM
Yes. The photo was taken by Cecil Beaton.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on June 17, 2014, 05:35:44 AM
That s not Olga, But Marina

(http://i1245.photobucket.com/albums/gg591/MrsBriDavis//YBR/YBR1908.jpg)

You are right :) Thnx :)

The inscription on the photo was wrong :)
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Eric_Lowe on June 23, 2014, 11:49:50 PM
Marina looked a bit more like Wooley than Olga.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on July 16, 2014, 11:56:49 AM
Villa "Montenegrina" or "Crnogorka" was given back to Prince Alexander and Princess Elizabeth as it was personal property of Princess Olga...Until recently,it served as a Montenegrian embassy in Belgrade...

Here is a video of giving keys to Princess Elizabeth,unfortunately,mostly in Serbian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lif7s0mqqJI

One can notice very formal and almost cold handshake of Princess Elizabeth and Crown Princess Katherine,unlike with other members with whom she shared hugs and kisses...

Tonight she gives her first formal reception in this house.
Title: Re: Prince Pavle of Yugoslavia, his family and descendants, Part II
Post by: Marc on July 16, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
Meanwhile,the autobiography of Rick James came out.It's called "Glow".Rick claimed of having an affair with the Princess,but the Princess herself denied this in Serbian newspapers claiming she only met him twice 35 years ago,at a concert and at some reception where she attended with her daughter Christina,not Catherine...

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/Elizabeth1_zps7485153c.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/auersperg22/media/Elizabeth1_zps7485153c.jpg.html)

(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b375/auersperg22/Elizabeth2_zpse801e39a.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/auersperg22/media/Elizabeth2_zpse801e39a.jpg.html)