Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Windsors => Topic started by: felix on January 14, 2005, 10:10:57 AM

Title: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: felix on January 14, 2005, 10:10:57 AM
Who was the  heir to Alfred, since his son died ? Was it the son of Arthur of Connaught . If so what imformation do people have on him?  If not, who was it.  Thanks F.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: jfkhaos on January 14, 2005, 11:08:21 AM
When Alfred's son died, it was initially intended that Arthur's son would be the heir, but from what I understand, Arthur and his son were not very receptive to the idea, and perhaps QV wasn't either, since Arthur was reported to be her favorite son.  Leopold's son Charles was therefore selected as the new heir, and he and his mother moved to Germany so Charles could be groomed as heir.  As Karl Eduard, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, he became tangled up with the Nazis, and his banner was removed from the stalls of St. George;s, Windsor.  An interesting note, however:  Charles' daughter Sybilla became the mother of the present King of Sweden, Carl XVI Gustaf.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on January 14, 2005, 01:29:21 PM
Quote
Who was the  heir to Alfred, since his son died ? Was it the son of Arthur of Connaught . If so what imformation do people have on him?  If not, who was it.  Thanks F.


After young Affie's suicide,  the next in line was the duke of Connaught, but both he and his son renounced their rights in favor of the next heir - Prince Charles Edward, Duke of Albany, the young son of the late Prince Leopold, and he was plucked from England and moved to Berlin to be educated as a German ...He succeeded Uncle Alfred in 1900 (the prince of Hohenlohen Langenburg, married to Affie's dtr Alexandra, acted as regent until Charles Edward, Carl Eduard,  reached his major age.)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Jim1026 on January 14, 2005, 03:39:58 PM
Karl Eduard's mother Helene, Duchess of Albany said she had raised her son to be a good Englishman and she must make him a goo German. :D
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eurohistory on January 25, 2005, 07:55:45 AM
One of the biggest frustrations of the old Duchess of Coburg (Maria Alexandrovna) was seeing Carl Eduard come into his Coburg inheritance after Duke Alfred had sacrificed and set the affairs (mainly financial) of the dual ducal throne in order.

Old Duke Ernst II had left a veritable financial wreck behind him at his death in 1893.  For seven years Alfred and his ministers set affairs in order, cleaned the duchies' mess and replenished their coffers...then Alfred Jr dies, something that was really expected as he had been in deteriorating helath for some time, mainly the result of venereal disease and its ravages, compounded by alcoholism.  Marie within a year or so witnessed the loss of her son and husband and the ducal thrones...she was not happy that after all their sacrifices someone else would reap the benefits...c'est la vie!

However, young Duke Carl Eduard was always highly respectful of his old aunt Marie and she continued t participate in official functions whenenver she was in town, which as the year's passed was less frequent, for after all she had several residences in and outside of Germany.

Carl Eduard was dethroned at the end of 1918.  He fared extremely well during the settlement negotiations with the German republic and his life of privilege continued almost unaffected.  In the late 1920's and early 1930's he was an enthusiastic supporter of this little movement that he thought offered such hope, National Socialism.  By the time the maniac overtook Germany, Carl Eduard and his former brother-in-law, August Wilhelm of Prussia, were convinced supporters of Hitler and full members of the Nazi Party.  Carl Eduard was responsible for giving Hitler legitimacy by publicly stating his support for Germany's new overlords, he was compensated with privileges, such as being able to award Coburg House Orders, retain full control of his property and leadership of the German Red Cross.

His demise was dreadful, such ignominy for a boy who was born with such great promise.  In fact, raised as a "good" Englishman, he ended striving his entire life to become a "good" German and thus fit in with his role as ruler of Coburg and Gotha.  He was a weakling, not the brightest light bulb in the store and a thoroughly sad man.  During his interrogation after 1945 he denied their had been a holocaust, to the horror of his wife, who was present during the interrogations.  Carl Eduard died in 1954 at the age of 70 years, wracked by cancer, his face disfigured, a son lost in the war, a daughter gone unconventional, another son married morganatically and yet his youngest son living abroad and completely uninterested in his Coburg inheritance.  Sad indeed.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Jim1026 on January 25, 2005, 03:47:09 PM
Arturo:  Thanks for the explaination.  I had always wondered what happened to him in the later years.
Didnt his sister Princess Alice go to the American authorities about giving him proper accommadations?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eurohistory on January 25, 2005, 04:13:27 PM
Yes Princess Alice tried to get him better treatment and accommodations, but she failed in her efforts.  The douments proving this effort were kept secret until a few years ago.  I have copies of them now.

I have bene working on a family biography of the entire Coburg clan for the better part of the last nine years...I hoe to bring it to light in the future, but in the process I have found great things and met many Coburg descendants.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Mgmstl on January 26, 2005, 10:52:44 AM
Was Carl Edward's banner removed from Windsor after WW I during the Royal Family's "de-Germanification" or after his support of the Nazi's in WW II?

Did he lose his fortune and his position in Coburg?

It must have been difficult for Alice seeing her brother become the person he did, and then trying to help him get better treatment by the Allies.  She was also one of the members of the Royal Family to encourage reconciliation between the RF and the Duke Of Windsor,
which never happened.  She must have been an exceptional lady.

Didn't Arthur's son go to Charles Edward at the time of the death of Alfred, and threaten to beat the crap out of him if he didn't take the Coburg throne, as Arthur didn't want what was called "The Coburg Curse".  ?

Just curious
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eurohistory on January 28, 2005, 10:18:17 AM
Quote
Was Carl Edward's banner removed from Windsor after WW I during the Royal Family's "de-Germanification" or after his support of the Nazi's in WW II?

Did he lose his fortune and his position in Coburg?

It must have been difficult for Alice seeing her brother become the person he did, and then trying to help him get better treatment by the Allies.  She was also one of the members of the Royal Family to encourage reconciliation between the RF and the Duke Of Windsor,
which never happened.  She must have been an exceptional lady.

Didn't Arthur's son go to Charles Edward at the time of the death of Alfred, and threaten to beat the crap out of him if he didn't take the Coburg throne, as Arthur didn't want what was called "The Coburg Curse".  ?

Just curious


First...the Coburg curse is nothing but a legend...

Carl Eduard's fortune was decimated after the Second World War, not because he was a nazi, but because a large portion of it was in what became the DDR, remember that the "iron wall" was just a few miles out of Coburg and that Gotha, for example, was entirely overtaken by the Communist German state.

There were possessions in Austria, which the family retained, as well as possessions in and around Coburg.  The old Duke was devastated by it all and weakened by cancer, which eventually disfigured him as it ate up the right side of his face.  Add to this that one son had married morganatically and was out of the family, the second son was killed in the war (1943) - a war he did not care much to join, but had been forced to due to his own personal circumstances and the rejection these caused withiin the family circle - and the thrid son, and heir, was busy trying to build a life for himself in Latin America.  The Coburg affairs were in disarray for decades and it was not until the curent Head of House, Prince Andreas, assumed control in the 1970's that order was introduced to stop the chaos.

Today the family's fortune is restore to sanity, the family managed to get considerable compensation for lost possessions in the former DDR and a bright future is ahead...now we only nee dto get the Hereditary Prince married equally!   ;)

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Mgmstl on January 28, 2005, 09:03:29 PM
Arturo, I realize the Charles Edward's position was difficult during & after WW II.  Did he lose his titles in England after the de-germanization of the Royals in
WW I or WW II?

Did he not march in George V's funeral in in Nazi uniform?  Did he support the 3rd Reich??

What was his relationship like with his sister Alice?

Thanks,

Michael
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on January 28, 2005, 09:56:40 PM
Quote
Arturo, I realize the Charles Edward's position was difficult during & after WW II.  Did he lose his titles in England after the de-germanization of the Royals in
WW I or WW II?

Did he not march in George V's funeral in in Nazi uniform?  Did he support the 3rd Reich??

What was his relationship like with his sister Alice?

Thanks,

Michael



World War I   Carl Eduard lost his peerage and his British HRH - but not his title Prince of Great Britain and Ireland.  This was due to the fact he was a British prince by birth.  
He certainly was an open supporter of the Nazi Party, and his sister Alice was not happy about this.  See her memoirs and Theo Aronson's bio.  
There is also a good book in German by Harald Sandner about the Coburgs - and a bio in German on carl Eduard.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Mgmstl on January 28, 2005, 10:17:41 PM
Marlene, thank you.  Sometimes the information that is in certain books can be confusing.  

Will there ever be a reprint of your book on QV descendants?


Thanks,

Michael
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: bluetoria on April 19, 2005, 09:05:05 AM
Could anyone please tell me the dates of (& anything else about) Amelie of S-C-G Kohary, daughter of Augustus & Clementine of Orleans?

Thank you in anticipation  :)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Iskenderbey on April 19, 2005, 11:08:25 AM
Quote

First...the Coburg curse is nothing but a legend...

Carl Eduard's fortune was decimated after the Second World War, not because he was a nazi, but because a large portion of it was in what became the DDR, remember that the "iron wall" was just a few miles out of Coburg and that Gotha, for example, was entirely overtaken by the Communist German state.

There were possessions in Austria, which the family retained, as well as possessions in and around Coburg.  The old Duke was devastated by it all and weakened by cancer, which eventually disfigured him as it ate up the right side of his face.  Add to this that one son had married morganatically and was out of the family, the second son was killed in the war (1943) - a war he did not care much to join, but had been forced to due to his own personal circumstances and the rejection these caused withiin the family circle - and the thrid son, and heir, was busy trying to build a life for himself in Latin America.  The Coburg affairs were in disarray for decades and it was not until the curent Head of House, Prince Andreas, assumed control in the 1970's that order was introduced to stop the chaos.

Today the family's fortune is restore to sanity, the family managed to get considerable compensation for lost possessions in the former DDR and a bright future is ahead...now we only nee dto get the Hereditary Prince married equally!   ;)

Arturo Beéche


Arturo, as always, ur post was very informative.
Can you post any information/brief bio on Princess Sybilla of Sweden? Or anyone else for that matter?
Regards
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Agneschen on April 19, 2005, 04:29:14 PM
Unfortunately not much has been written about Amalie of Saxe-Coburg (1848-1894) which is a great pity for I have always been interested about her. I am a great fan of her mother, princess Clémentine. I have posted the little I know about Amalie in the French Royals thread (p.2) in the "Windsor" section. Here is the link :

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Windsor;action=display;num=1107184798;start=25
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: TampaBay on April 20, 2005, 07:48:19 PM
Quote
Unfortunately not much has been written about Amalie of Saxe-Coburg (1848-1894) which is a great pity for I have always been interested about her. I am a great fan of her mother, princess Clémentine. I have posted the little I know about Amalie in the French Royals thread (p.2) in the "Windsor" section. Here is the link :

http://hydrogen.pallasweb.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=Windsor;action=display;num=1107184798;start=25


See A.N. Wilson's-The Rise and Fall of the House of Windsor (1993) for a detailed description of the "Coburg Curse" and info on Amelie.  Follow the Money!!!

TampaBay
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: José on October 24, 2006, 10:59:07 AM
Once of the best known and prolific families in Europe, always in the limelight.
They ruled in the UK, Portugal, Belgium and Bulgaria.

Nowadays one of the lowest-profile royal families, may be "paying" for the wrong choices the last reigning Duke Carl-Edward made.

Duke Carl Edward (1884-1954) married 1905 Pss. Victoria-Adelaide of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg (1885-1970)

The couple had 5 children:

Johan-Leopold (1906-72)
Sybilla (1908-72)
Hubert (1909-43)
Carolina-Mathilde (Calma)  (1912-83)
Frederick Josias (1918-98)

Sybilla is by far the best known as she married the swedish crown-prince and was the mother of the present king Carl XVI Gustav.
Hubert died in WW2 as well as Calma's first husband.

What can be said about Johan-Leopold, Hubert, Calma and Fred.Josias ?
Pictures/photos of them, their spouses and children would be welcomed.

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on October 24, 2006, 11:09:26 PM

Sybilla is by far the best known as she married the swedish crown-prince and was the mother of the present king Carl XVI Gustav.
Hubert died in WW2 as well as Calma's first husband.



Just a minor correction, if you do not mind, José. :) Sibylla's husband, prince Gustaf Adolf, was never crown prince, as he died (in an air crash) while his grandfather was the reigning king and his father still the crown prince.

As for Caroline Mathilde (Calma), all I can remember instantly about her is that later in life she was rather unhappy with the way her family treated her after she divorced her first husband and remarried. Also I think I have read somewhere that she felt some resentment towards her sister Sibylla for not helping her personally during World War II.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Daniela on October 25, 2006, 03:51:59 AM
http://www.geocities.com/kaiser_prussia/carl_eduard_biog.html (http://www.geocities.com/kaiser_prussia/carl_eduard_biog.html)

Biography with a couple of photos!

Daniela

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: José on October 26, 2006, 11:38:19 AM

I am also looking for pics of Carl-Eduard's children Johann-Leopold, Calma, Hubertus and Frederick Josias and their spouses.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: José on November 07, 2006, 09:31:04 AM
Still no pics of Carl-Eduard's children Johann-Leopold, Calma, Hubertus and Frederick Josias and their spouses :-\ ?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Svetabel on November 07, 2006, 12:02:45 PM
Still no pics of Carl-Eduard's children Johann-Leopold, Calma, Hubertus and Frederick Josias and their spouses :-\ ?

Do you want to see single pictures or group-photos?

These were listed on ebay for a while ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/DukeKarlEduardofSaxe-Coburg_Childre.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/DukeKarlEduardofSaxe-Coburg_Childre.jpg)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/DukeKarlEduardofSaxe-Coburg_family_.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/DukeKarlEduardofSaxe-Coburg_family_.jpg)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/DukeKarlEduardofSaxe-Coburg_family-.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/DukeKarlEduardofSaxe-Coburg_family-.jpg)



Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Svetabel on November 07, 2006, 12:04:42 PM
Caroline Mathilde

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/PrincessCarolineMathilde.jpg)

(from pro.corbis.com)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/PrincessCarolineMathilde-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on November 07, 2006, 01:50:09 PM

Johann-Leopold and grandmother [posted on an old thread]
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/feomarie/calmagrson.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: José on November 09, 2006, 12:17:40 PM


Do you want to see single pictures or group-photos?


Preferably single pictures.
Or pictures of the couples.
Is there any of Ernst-Leopold and his wife, the ones that commited the suicide pact ?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on November 10, 2006, 08:29:38 AM
The German news magazines and newspapers certainly ran photos after their deaths.  However, these photos are under 75 years old, and thus remain in copyright.



Do you want to see single pictures or group-photos?


Preferably single pictures.
Or pictures of the couples.
Is there any of Ernst-Leopold and his wife, the ones that commited the suicide pact ?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on March 27, 2007, 01:48:07 PM
Are there any threads involving Charled Edward?  I haven't seen any.  I used the search feature like some of the moderators suggested in other threads but only the present Prince of Wales comes up. Does anybody have any pictures of him, I haven't seen any and I read on wilkipedia (not a reliable source, I know) that he was bullied by Arthur of Connaught to take Saxe-Couburg-Gotha? Does anybody know any details about him later in life? 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2007, 04:24:17 PM
Unfortunately for 'Charlie' as he was called in the family, he is primarily known nowadays for his Nazi activities. His went beyond the flirtation or even eager early support of many royals. He turned his daughter Sybilla's wedding to Prince Gustav Adolf of Sweden (parents of the current Swedish King) into a Nazi event. This caused a lot of controversy and GV wouldn't let his son attend the wedding and the groom's grandfather, Gustav V wouldn't attend.  On the evening of the wedding, 4000 Nazis marched in a torchlight procession through the town. The actual wedding route was lined by saluting Brownshirts, and a message from Hitler was read out at the reception. It was a source of much trouble later on in Sweden for the couple, especially during WW2. Because of his position as a cousin to George V he had a high profile and even wore his Nazi uniform to GV's funeral in 1936.

He was prosecuted and imprisoned after the war and suffered confiscation of wealth and properties. He was president of the German Red Cross and the institution was basically a Nazi organization. One story said that when inmates of the concentration camps saw Red Cross vehicles drive up to the camp gates, they typically rioted, because the arrival of the Red Cross meant that more people were going to shipped off to the camps or to medical experiments. Charles's cousins on the maternal side, the Waldeck-Pyrmonts, and his wife's family, the Schleswig-Holsteins, had a very strong involvement with the Nazis. Reading her trying to defend some of Charlie's activities is one of the more painful parts of Alice Albany's wonderful memoirs. He was released after a short time due to his problems with arthritis and lived his few remaining years quietly.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2007, 04:34:01 PM
I read on wilkipedia (not a reliable source, I know) that he was bullied by Arthur of Connaught to take Saxe-Couburg-Gotha?

There was a widely repeated story that Arthur Jr threatened to punch him in the nose if he didn't take the dukedom but I don't know how true that is. It could've just been a story bandied about that played to national feelings as the British public weren't too keen on losing their princes to Germany. Certainly Duke Arthur wasn't keen on the idea at all since he was a career soldier who aspired to the position of as head of the Army held by George, Duke of Cambridge and was a very proud Englishman. The decision wasn't really Charlie's either. His mother finally was convinced because once the Connaughts declined, there weren't any other British princes in the male line except for those in the future King Edward's line and that was unacceptable.

The decision on Charlie was a popular one in Germany since he was still young and could be educated as a German. That was one of the things that had 'dogged' Duke Alfred--he was an English-born, English-reared British naval officer. His son was educated in Germany and thus was considered German but that was lost with his death. Arthur Jr was still young but he was a few years older than Charlie. Plus, in addition to Charles's relations in the Prussian court, the Duchess of Albany was a German princess and that was considered a plus as well since he would have a network of relatives in the country. The Duchess moved her 2 children to Germany and the young Duke left Eton and entered a school in Germany. They spent a good deal of time with Kaiser Wilhelm who, no doubt, looked forward to influencing the Coburg Duke--something that wouldn't have been as likely with Arthur Jr, especially with him having a living father.

The closeness with the Court led to rumors that Alice would marry the German Crown Prince, while Charlie's eventual wife, Princess Victoria Adelheid of Schleswig-Holstein, was the niece of the Kaiserin.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on March 27, 2007, 06:02:14 PM
Does anybody have photos of Carl Edward?

And thank you Granduchessella for your help in this thread and all through out the forum.  You are really a wealth of knowledge and in my opinion the best moderator of this site. 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2007, 07:28:50 PM
Thank you, Duke. That's very kind of you to say.  :)

From the worldroots site:

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs30/karleduardsaxe1884-5.jpg)

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs30/karleduardsaxe1884-6.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2007, 07:45:34 PM
Charles Edward (standing in kilt) with his sister Alice and cousins Margaret & Arthur Connaught:

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs6/alicebritain1883-20.jpg)

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs6/alicebritain1883-21.jpg)

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs6/alicebritain1883-22.jpg)

(http://worldroots.com/brigitte/gifs6/alicebritain1883-17.jpg)

from worldroots.com
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 27, 2007, 07:49:27 PM
From eurohistory:

"Carl Eduard was dethroned at the end of 1918.  He fared extremely well during the settlement negotiations with the German republic and his life of privilege continued almost unaffected.  In the late 1920's and early 1930's he was an enthusiastic supporter of this little movement that he thought offered such hope, National Socialism.  By the time the maniac overtook Germany, Carl Eduard and his former brother-in-law, August Wilhelm of Prussia, were convinced supporters of Hitler and full members of the Nazi Party.  Carl Eduard was responsible for giving Hitler legitimacy by publicly stating his support for Germany's new overlords, he was compensated with privileges, such as being able to award Coburg House Orders, retain full control of his property and leadership of the German Red Cross.

His demise was dreadful, such ignominy for a boy who was born with such great promise.  In fact, raised as a "good" Englishman, he ended striving his entire life to become a "good" German and thus fit in with his role as ruler of Coburg and Gotha.  He was a weakling, not the brightest light bulb in the store and a thoroughly sad man.  During his interrogation after 1945 he denied their had been a holocaust, to the horror of his wife, who was present during the interrogations.  Carl Eduard died in 1954 at the age of 70 years, wracked by cancer, his face disfigured, a son lost in the war, a daughter gone unconventional, another son married morganatically and yet his youngest son living abroad and completely uninterested in his Coburg inheritance.  Sad indeed."

also from eurohistory:

"Carl Eduard's fortune was decimated after the Second World War, not because he was a nazi, but because a large portion of it was in what became the DDR, remember that the "iron wall" was just a few miles out of Coburg and that Gotha, for example, was entirely overtaken by the Communist German state.

There were possessions in Austria, which the family retained, as well as possessions in and around Coburg.  The old Duke was devastated by it all and weakened by cancer, which eventually disfigured him as it ate up the right side of his face.  Add to this that one son had married morganatically and was out of the family, the second son was killed in the war (1943) - a war he did not care much to join, but had been forced to due to his own personal circumstances and the rejection these caused withiin the family circle - and the thrid son, and heir, was busy trying to build a life for himself in Latin America.  The Coburg affairs were in disarray for decades and it was not until the curent Head of House, Prince Andreas, assumed control in the 1970's that order was introduced to stop the chaos.

Today the family's fortune is restore to sanity, the family managed to get considerable compensation for lost possessions in the former DDR and a bright future is ahead."

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: ashdean on March 28, 2007, 06:16:18 AM
Charlie was as much a victim of the circumstances of his birth as hundreds of others of his peers and millions of others of his countrymen in central Europe...At least he seems to have had a happy marriage and his wife "Dick" comes through as loyal & loving..
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: CountessKate on March 28, 2007, 07:12:07 AM
Quote
Charlie was as much a victim of the circumstances of his birth as hundreds of others of his peers and millions of others of his countrymen in central Europe

I'm not sure how voluntarily joining the Nazi party and getting punished for it by a short term of imprisonment and deprivation of inherited money makes him a victim of circumstances of his birth.  A victim of his abysmal choices perhaps.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on March 28, 2007, 10:59:13 AM
He wasn't a victim, he was a disgrace. I can only imagine how his cousin George V despised him. It seems he ended up suffering appropriately for his crimes what with his face being eaten up by cancer, his wealth gone, and his family in disarray.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Martin on March 28, 2007, 11:25:51 AM
After all his grandson is the present king of Sweden. So his family was not a complete disaster.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on March 28, 2007, 11:35:56 AM
Yes his daughter Sybilla made a good marriage, unfortunately he wrecked the wedding ceremony with a Nazi parade as mentioned above.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: ashdean on March 28, 2007, 12:22:08 PM
Quote
Charlie was as much a victim of the circumstances of his birth as hundreds of others of his peers and millions of others of his countrymen in central Europe

I'm not sure how voluntarily joining the Nazi party and getting punished for it by a short term of imprisonment and deprivation of inherited money makes him a victim of circumstances of his birth.  A victim of his abysmal choices perhaps.
I said he was a victim of circumstance..that covers many things INCLUDING stupid,ill informed choices...
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 28, 2007, 12:32:23 PM
I'm afraid I can't work up much sympathy for him. There were other royals who made the bad decision to support the Nazi regime and regretted it or renounced it or were members basically in name only or were used by the party or whatever. He was a virulent Nazi who rode the whole thing out, seemed to know a good deal about what was really going on since he visited the camps, and never renounced it at all.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: ashdean on March 28, 2007, 12:39:24 PM
He wasn't a victim, he was a disgrace. I can only imagine how his cousin George V despised him. It seems he ended up suffering appropriately for his crimes what with his face being eaten up by cancer, his wealth gone, and his family in disarray.
I do not think George V would despise him..he died in early 1936..long before Nazism (although evil from the first minute of inception) reached its worst depravaties.....As for anyone thinking that dying ravaged by cancer is a justified end for anyone.. that means by wishing such things one is sinking as low as the evil doers one is talking about....Charlie was not a front ranking nazi..he like millions of other Germans knew about camps..maybe even gas chambers etc..but turned a blind eye..no excuse...just a fact..
I might add...and I am NOT looking for sympathy....although far younger than Charlie was ...I have survived cancer and I would not wish on my worst enemy to go through what I went through.. basil..you are young..at yr age all seems black & white..but you will find as you get oldr many shades of grey in human nature...and do not wish anyone to  have family problems or poverty or certainly not to suffer...
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 28, 2007, 12:51:51 PM
He actually seems to have been a pretty important member of the Nazi party. And his cousin George V was far ahead of many people in despising the Nazi party and fearing what they might bring. It's the reason he refused to let the Prince of Wales, or any other member of the royal family, attend the Sybilla/Gustav Adolf nuptials depite being closely related to both families. [Prince Arthur of Connaught and Lady Patricia Ramsey did attend but it seems in a private manner, as uncle and aunt of the groom, rather than as representatives of the British royal family.] I don't think that there were deep ill-feelings between the cousins though since Charles did visit the King at Sandringham in the 1930s and, as I mentioned, attended his funeral despite not being a reigning duke anymore. Also, Time reported that CE had been re-instated as a Knight of the Garter (after being removed during WW1 as part of the German prince purge) in 1932 only to be removed once again in 1940.

I don't feel badly for him that he died in reduced circumstances--his life really wasn't that much worse than what many went through in the post-war period, he just had farther to fall. Any painful illness I don't wish on anyone.

I have never read much of him, even in Alice's memoirs, that lends me to any positive view of him. There don't seem to be many ancedotes out there about him being a good son or father or husband or a charming person or an intellect or the like to help balance out the actions he took in his life. I'm not saying he wasn't any of these things, just that there seems to be an absence of them.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on March 28, 2007, 01:26:09 PM
He wasn't a victim, he was a disgrace. I can only imagine how his cousin George V despised him. It seems he ended up suffering appropriately for his crimes what with his face being eaten up by cancer, his wealth gone, and his family in disarray.
I do not think George V would despise him..he died in early 1936..long before Nazism (although evil from the first minute of inception) reached its worst depravaties.....As for anyone thinking that dying ravaged by cancer is a justified end for anyone.. that means by wishing such things one is sinking as low as the evil doers one is talking about....Charlie was not a front ranking nazi..he like millions of other Germans knew about camps..maybe even gas chambers etc..but turned a blind eye..no excuse...just a fact..
I might add...and I am NOT looking for sympathy....although far younger than Charlie was ...I have survived cancer and I would not wish on my worst enemy to go through what I went through.. basil..you are young..at yr age all seems black & white..but you will find as you get oldr many shades of grey in human nature...and do not wish anyone to  have family problems or poverty or certainly not to suffer...

My opinions on him are influenced by the fact I have been studying European history for nearly 4 years, currently specialising in German history, and I know so much about all the evil deeds of the Nazis, I can't have any sympathy for a virulent Nazi like Carl Eduard even if they were Royal and suffered appropriately. I think George V may have despised him, as CE was born a British Prince and ended up being a dedicated member of a regime that wanted to invade Britain and inflict MUCH suffering on its people. George V hated Nazis, he could see their evil before it was fully manifested.

Quote
As for anyone thinking that dying ravaged by cancer is a justified end for anyone.. that means by wishing such things one is sinking as low as the evil doers one is talking about...

Maybe I was being a little harsh with my quote above. But I don't think it means that, no it doesn't - it just means you believe in a different form of justice - divine retribution maybe. He deserved some punishment, and as he didn't really get it from the state, he had to have it in some other way perhaps. But I'm sorry if I offended you - I agree it is wrong to wish he get cancer - or anything like that - I wasn't wishing it at all, but that's just what happened to him. You are right - most things are for me black and white - maybe that is because I am young - but I put it down to having an extremist personality,  ;)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 28, 2007, 02:36:35 PM
Charles Edward was the President of the Anglo-German Fellowship and frequently visited England in the 1930s. The Anglo-German Fellowship was founded in the UK in 1935 by the banker Ernest Tennant, a friend of the German Ambassador Joachim von Ribbentrop.The organisation had a pro-Nazi leaning, as well as a number of fascist members. The National Archives file on the group (covering 1935-1941), while heavily weeding, seems to show that the Fellowship's activities were largely non-political, and the organisation folded following the outbreak of War in 1939. However, the Fellowship was used by some as cover for covert activities. Both the Cambridge spies Kim Philby and Guy Burgess, on instruction from Moscow, joined the group to cover the tracks of their Communist connections. Philby was, in fact, editor of the group's newsletter for a period. Meanwhile, Hitler sent Charles Edward to Britain to lead the Fellowship, while he conducted negotiations with Edward VIII to try to engineer an Anglo-German pact. The files further reveal that the Fellowship was formed after National Socialist members of the earlier Anglo-German Club resigned en masse in protest at Jewish club members, and includes lists of members and prospective members, many from prominent business organisations. 

Charles Edward's contacts in England were further used by Hitler. After the death of George V , CE had a converstaion with Edward VIII. He later reported to Hitler that the new King believed in an alliance with Germany, even going so far as to report that EVIII wanted to talk to Hitler himself, rather than PM Baldwin. Even after the abdication, CE continued to send reports to Hitler that seemed to encourage the idea that there was a strong pro-German party in the country.

In addition to promoting Germany in England, CE became heavily involved in promoting the Nazi party and even became a Group Leader in the Brownshirts. His involvement was such to draw some notice in Time magazine in 1932: "By this abrupt move Dr. Schacht brought a sizeable section of Berlin finance into the Biggest Business phalanx lined up behind Adolf by Steel Tycoon Fritz Thyssen. Also in Berlin, actively supporting the Hitler cause last week, was a close kinsman of British King-Emperor George V, none other than Duke Karl Eduard von Saxe-Coburg-und-Gotha who recently married his daughter Princess Sibylle to the eldest son of Sweden's Crown Prince. Backed by the banker, the tycoon, the duke and by a large plurality of German voters, Leader Hitler was nevertheless unable last week to persuade President von Hindenburg to appoint him Chancellor of the Reich. "

When the Duke of Windsor visited Germany in 1937, one of his stops was to see Charles Edward. Time reported that "Der Obergruppenführer Herzog von Coburg...is the Head of the Family of Saxe-Coburg und Gotha....Therefore last week European socialites were agog to see what kind of dinner the Duke of Coburg would give in Nürnberg for the Duke & Duchess of Windsor. Would the greatest ladies of the House of Coburg and of German society be invited to meet the Duchess, and would the Head of the House treat her as having the rank of Royal Highness—a rank King George VI has not yet bestowed on his American sister-in-law. Der Obergruppenführer Herzog von Coburg steered a middle course. He gave a dinner of 18 covers. Seventeen of those at the table were men. The 18th place card read "Ihre Koenig-liche Hoheit der Herzogin von Windsor" —Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Windsor."

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on March 28, 2007, 03:07:39 PM
Terrible. >:( Couldn't he see that Hitler was using him, and also that Royalty and Nazism are fundamentally incompatible? I don't think CE was very smart.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on March 28, 2007, 03:42:11 PM
Carl Eduard, duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, deserved no sympathy at all. He did not deserve any then, and he does not deserve any now. Neither does his wife.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on March 28, 2007, 04:47:11 PM
He grew up without a father, he was forced to leave the home he knew to govern a German duchy.  I think he deserves some sympathy for his early life, not his later one.

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 28, 2007, 05:36:16 PM
Prince Leopold Charles Edward George Albert

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/coburg/image167albanyw.jpg)

Arriving in Coburg upon the death of Duke Alfred

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/coburg/image568w.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 28, 2007, 05:38:10 PM
In Scottish regalia

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/coburg/CarlEd1.jpg)

In German uniform

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/coburg/243671w.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 28, 2007, 05:39:09 PM
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/coburg/charlieinengland1936.jpg)

In the late 20s/early 30s:

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/coburg/sachsen-coburg_31.jpg)

(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f282/vickyandfritz/coburg/sachsen-coburg1.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: ashdean on March 29, 2007, 02:43:59 AM
He grew up without a father, he was forced to leave the home he knew to govern a German duchy.  I think he deserves some sympathy for his early life, not his later one.

-Duke of NJ
Yes that fact, his rather narrow education and his not abundant common sense led him (like millions of other germans in various degrees....none praiseworthy,few worthy of more scorn than his role) into supporting the Nazi's who they (VERY MISGUIDEDLY) thought could restore Germany after the humiliation of WW1 and its aftermath....Charlie was not unique,certainly not good and he was no better to die in sad circumstances than millions of others did in those years..but I still feel sympathy for him in MANY WAYS..if he had not been catapulted into that role BY DEFAULT..he like the Connaughts and his brother in law Lord Athlone..might have been  a respected British army man,Govenor etc..a pillar of  British establishment.Fate started him onto another eventually darker path...
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on March 29, 2007, 07:41:54 AM
Fate? Fate made him Duke of SCG, but it was his own bad decisions and evil inclinations that set him on the darker path. He doesn't deserve any sympathy, no Nazi does who really believed in Nazism.  >:(
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 30, 2007, 04:32:44 PM
I agree with Ashdean and Duke of NJ that CE deserves a bit of a break. He, like so many others, are pitiful examples of one of totalitarianism's worst crime, that of forcing or brainwashing the population into following an agenda filled with lies and misrepresentations. CE did join onto the veritable band wagon of national socialism (as had Kennedy, Lindbergh, and other notables who were not even German) and tried to engage a peaceful relationship  between both his nations of family roots. In trying to create a treaty with England, it seems to show his original intentions for peace and solidarity. It also strikes me that his having been de-titled and essentially thrown out of the family during WWI (after the family essentially forced him to go to Germany in the first place) and then, with hat in hand, seeking reconciliation, he must have had a greater good in mind prior to the outbreak of hostilies, after which no one had any choices left.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on March 30, 2007, 04:38:48 PM
For once I have to disagree with my good friend HerrKaiser.  :)

What sets CE apart from some of the other Germans, in my opinion, was the willing part he played in spreading the Nazi propaganda--even when much of their intentions were cleared. The courts at Nuremberg wanted to classify him as a high-ranking and influential Nazi due to much of his activities (including what appeared to be war crimes in his position as head of the Red Cross) but it was overturned by an appeals court which gave him a medium-ranking. It was important enough that the Allies appealed this 2 or 3 times to have him re-classified. He wasn't brainwashed to me--he went along willingly and helped facilitate the machine that DID the brain-washing.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on March 31, 2007, 04:05:35 AM
Of course he still had opportunities and choices once the war started - and he always seemed to choose the evil route. He doesn't deserve any sympathy, only the slightest amount of understanding because he was rather stupid - but he knew what was going on and he supported it, which is of course unforgivable.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on March 31, 2007, 11:13:30 AM
For once I have to disagree with my good friend HerrKaiser.  :)

What sets CE apart from some of the other Germans, in my opinion, was the willing part he played in spreading the Nazi propaganda--even when much of their intentions were cleared. The courts at Nuremberg wanted to classify him as a high-ranking and influential Nazi due to much of his activities (including what appeared to be war crimes in his position as head of the Red Cross) but it was overturned by an appeals court which gave him a medium-ranking. It was important enough that the Allies appealed this 2 or 3 times to have him re-classified. He wasn't brainwashed to me--he went along willingly and helped facilitate the machine that DID the brain-washing.

ah ha, I didn't know that part and appreciate the information to correct my view. thank you, and apologies for giving him some slack he doesn't deserve. Did he ever write a biography or memoir that explains what he was thinking? or have any of his heirs done so?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Martin on April 02, 2007, 01:31:21 PM
Politics  and personal mistakes aside. I sugest you should take a look at the pictures  of CE on this thread and compare them to the ones of his great-grand daughter Princess Madeleine of Sweden, which you can find on another thread. Some genes are strong!
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Iskenderbey on April 02, 2007, 03:22:20 PM
Perhaps reading "The Princes and the Reich" by Petropoulos would give more insight for you all, about Charles Edward.
He doesn't paint a good picture of him at all,,
Regards
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on April 03, 2007, 06:39:26 AM
Politics  and personal mistakes aside. I sugest you should take a look at the pictures  of CE on this thread and compare them to the ones of his great-grand daughter Princess Madeleine of Sweden, which you can find on another thread. Some genes are strong!

I can only see the most pale of resemblances, personally.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on April 03, 2007, 10:17:26 AM
I think the Coburg genes do dominate with Madeleine though. There are photos of her mother, Sybilla, that really show a resemblance--my opinion, as these things are subjective.  :)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Martin on April 03, 2007, 11:59:11 AM
Princess Sybilla was Princess Madeleine's grand-mother, whom Princess Madeleine never met unfortunately. But  Madeleine looks very much like her grand-mother too.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on April 06, 2007, 07:57:08 AM
I have checked and mr Petropoulos book "The princes and the reich" is not available in Swedish (my first language). However, I found out that the English version is available through a Swedish internet bookselling site, and now I have ordered it and am eagerly waiting for it. I doubt that it will be translated to Swedish. Reading a book like this in a language which is not my first, will be quite a challenge for me, but I am hoping my poor English will benefit from the practice! :) I did not know about this book at all, so thank you, Iskenderbey, for mentioning it.

Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was a despicable little man. He grew up without a father? Well, poor him. I am sure he had a large, loving family to guide him anyway. He and his fellow nazi trash made sure that thousands of children had to grow up without a father (including my mother!) and even without any family at all.

He was the head of the German Red cross, and the German Red cross was ruled by the nazis. When cars from the German Red cross arrived at concentration camps the poor people held prisoned there tried to hide as well as they could, as they knew only too well that being transported by the German Red Cross did not mean one was saved - in contrary, it meant transport to a death camp or similar. Nobody can convince me that the head of the German Red cross, duke Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, did not know anything about this. Maybe he was stupid, but not that stupid.

This is my few pennies on Carl Eduard and his great granddaughter princess Madeleine. I can see a very slight resemblance. Let us hope, for Madeleine's sake, that those are the only genes she has inherited from the duke.

The resemblance between Carl Eduard and his embittered daughter Sibylla is rather striking, though.

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on April 06, 2007, 09:43:26 AM
So sorry for the loss of your grandfather, Rebecca.  :'( How traumatic for your mother. I think sometimes those real-life, 'regular' people affected by the Nazis gets lost in some of the roya Nazi apologia. Many were taken in, sure, but there was a LOT that was extremely distasteful that was known from the very beginning on. Just because some didn't sign on to the 'final solution' doesn't mean they didn't at least look the other way at the early anti-Semitism and bigotry that was espoused. While it doesn't make all the royals who were active members of the party evil, in my eyes, it irreparably taints them nonetheless. I save my admiration for those like the various members of the Saxony and Bavarian royal families, amongst others, who were against them from the start--despite those saying it was in the royal best interest to support them.

Anyway, not to go too far off-topic--there is a 9-page thread on royals & Nazis that has a good bit of info on the Petropoulos book.

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php/topic,4071.0.html
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on April 10, 2007, 04:17:29 PM
Thank you, Granduchessella, for your kind words, and I could not agree more with what you say. :) I also save my admiration or people who were against nazism and its sick and disgusting ideology (if ideology even is the word for the insane and nauseous and not least evil things which form nazism) from the start. I have always found the excuse "Oh, we thought it was good at first, that it might restore the German glory" etc etc both repulsive and coward. It is an excuse which does not hold even for the slightest scrutiny.

Thank you also for the link to the thread on mr Petropoulos book. Now I am waiting even more eagerly to receive the book. :)

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Iskenderbey on April 16, 2007, 09:29:14 AM
Thank you, Granduchessella, for your kind words, and I could not agree more with what you say. :) I also save my admiration or people who were against nazism and its sick and disgusting ideology (if ideology even is the word for the insane and nauseous and not least evil things which form nazism) from the start. I have always found the excuse "Oh, we thought it was good at first, that it might restore the German glory" etc etc both repulsive and coward. It is an excuse which does not hold even for the slightest scrutiny.

Thank you also for the link to the thread on mr Petropoulos book. Now I am waiting even more eagerly to receive the book. :)



Dear Rebecca,

While we all can use personal family anecdotes and personal biases to discredit and rave against certain ideologies/history/etc, I would kindly advise you to please hold off making your final judgment on the Royals who were involved with the Nazis until reading this book.  It is a a really good book that is quite balanced, and doesn't simply say that they were Nazis and leave it at that, it goes behind the psychological reasons for their joining the Nazis and the situation in Germany up to and including the Nazi period. Not to mention the fact that most princes were dismissed from the Nazis scrolls and hunted down in 1943, thus excluding them from, amongst many things, the year in which the Nazi regime became its most brutal until liberation in 1945.

King regards and best wishes,

Iskenderbey

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on April 16, 2007, 06:09:43 PM

Dear Rebecca,

While we all can use personal family anecdotes and personal biases to discredit and rave against certain ideologies/history/etc, I would kindly advise you to please hold off making your final judgment on the Royals who were involved with the Nazis until reading this book.  It is a a really good book that is quite balanced, and doesn't simply say that they were Nazis and leave it at that, it goes behind the psychological reasons for their joining the Nazis and the situation in Germany up to and including the Nazi period. Not to mention the fact that most princes were dismissed from the Nazis scrolls and hunted down in 1943, thus excluding them from, amongst many things, the year in which the Nazi regime became its most brutal until liberation in 1945.

King regards and best wishes,

Iskenderbey






Dear Iskenderbey,

I received the book a few days ago, and I have begun to read it. It will take me a longer time reading it than it normally takes me reading a book, since this one is not in my first language, and I have to use a dictionary now and then. However, it seems to be a very good and sensible book.

However (again), reading it will probably not change my views on duke Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, by two main reasons: 1) He is not mentioned very much in the book and I have already looked up every page with information on him. 2) My opinion on him is based on what I already knew about him, from other sources, and the facts in this book does not add much to what I already knew about him.

I certainly do not when informed that somebody was a member of the nazi party automatically view this person as an evil person. It is not that simple. But my opinion on nazism remains that it was (and still is) a disgusting, insane and sick ideology. I knew far too little about Philipp and Christoph von Hessen to begin with to pass any final judgement on them, and I cannot see that I have done that. On the other hand, I do not accept the excuse used by many ex-nazis - not necessarily royals -  ("Oh, we thought it was good at first and would restore Germany to it's former glory") because the insanity and sickness in the nazi ideology was fully evident long before the war broke out and the massmurderings started.


Best wishes,
Rebecca
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Tdora1 on April 17, 2007, 11:51:05 AM
Rebecca - ani hadash. Mederberet ivrit?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on April 17, 2007, 03:03:16 PM
Maybe Petropoulos was trying to spend more time on not-so-well-known royals associated with the nazi regime rather than the more well-documented Karl Eduard's story.


Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on April 17, 2007, 04:23:22 PM
I just noticed for the thread heading it says "Coubug."  I guess you know how good I am at typing! 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on April 17, 2007, 04:53:04 PM
Schalom Tdora1!

Tzar li, ani medaberet rak milim achadot.  :-\
I know only a little, which my father taught me, or rather tried to teach me, and I guess I was not paying much attention.  :-[
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on April 17, 2007, 04:54:16 PM
Maybe Petropoulos was trying to spend more time on not-so-well-known royals associated with the nazi regime rather than the more well-documented Karl Eduard's story.





Probably so. Anyway, it is a very good book!
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on April 17, 2007, 04:56:39 PM
Is that Swedish?  I have always found languages interesting, too bad I can't learn new ones. 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on April 17, 2007, 05:06:07 PM
Is that Swedish?  I have always found languages interesting, too bad I can't learn new ones. 

-Duke of NJ

No, it is Hebrew.

Svenska ser ut så här. (Swedish looks like this.) :)

Maybe we should not go more off-topic...  :-[

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Tdora1 on April 17, 2007, 05:18:25 PM
Ken, Rebecca:  dvash sheleha  ;D

 - beseder v lehitraot..
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on April 17, 2007, 05:19:14 PM
I guess I missed
Quote
Schalom
.  That should have been a clue.  It is still interesting though!  

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on April 17, 2007, 05:28:11 PM
Toda meod, Tdora! :) Ken, lehitra'ot - bekarov! :)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: dmitri on April 27, 2007, 07:55:18 AM
I wonder how history would have judged him if there had been no world war one? very differently I think ...
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on April 27, 2007, 11:12:25 AM
Er, World War Two was when his disgraceful and evil behaviour and decisions took place. :(
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Iskenderbey on April 30, 2007, 03:53:18 PM
Er, World War Two was when his disgraceful and evil behaviour and decisions took place. :(

But being that World War One effected most directly the eventual occurrence of World War II, and affected the psychological well being of many people, one cannot neglect either.

Regards,

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: bell_the_cat on April 30, 2007, 06:10:52 PM
If there had been no  WWI , Charles Edward's descendants would still be the very respected Dukes of Albany, no doubt.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on May 01, 2007, 11:34:46 AM
Er, World War Two was when his disgraceful and evil behaviour and decisions took place. :(

But being that World War One effected most directly the eventual occurrence of World War II, and affected the psychological well being of many people, one cannot neglect either.

Regards,



Yes, but as for how history has judged him, it has judged him to be a very bad man, because of his actions in WW2, not WW1.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Iskenderbey on May 01, 2007, 03:08:37 PM
Er, World War Two was when his disgraceful and evil behaviour and decisions took place. :(

But being that World War One effected most directly the eventual occurrence of World War II, and affected the psychological well being of many people, one cannot neglect either.

Regards,



Yes, but as for how history has judged him, it has judged him to be a very bad man, because of his actions in WW2, not WW1.

History has judged him from A to B, that includes including the effects on Karl Eduard from World War One that lead to his actions in WWII.

Regards!
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 01, 2007, 03:38:29 PM
I think a good deal of what led him to his actions in WW2 was there prior to WW1. There were plenty of those who suffered much more than CE did in WW1 (after all, he lost no close relatives, got most of his money back, still had some power and prestige and wasn't wounded) and they didn't become virulent Nazis. I think some of this rather denigrates those who went through the post-WW1 period with much more suffering yet at worst sat back and at best fought back against the Nazi regime.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on May 01, 2007, 05:07:34 PM
Absolutely. The ''effects on Charles Edward from World War One" did not solely lead to his actions in WW2. Far from it! He didn't even suffer very much in World War One. It's sad that some people try to make excuses for this rabid Nazi!
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Duke of New Jersey on May 01, 2007, 05:11:29 PM
Quote
It's sad that some people try to make excuses for this rabid Nazi!

I really doubt that anyone is making excuses for him!!!!

Anyway, I wonder what Alfred Jr. of Edinburgh would have done in this Couburg situation.  Would he have "gone back" to England during WWI or would he have stayed in Germany? 

He was in the Prussian Army and I bet that Marie Alexandrovna would have made him stay in Germany. 

-Duke of NJ
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rudolf_II on May 01, 2007, 05:11:40 PM
I've always found it peculiar how the son of Prince Leopold (by all accounts a sensitive and intelligent man) ended up as a notorious Nazi.  I presume that had Leo been around during Charlie's childhood, he wouldn't have ended up the way he did.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on May 01, 2007, 05:39:46 PM
Quote
It's sad that some people try to make excuses for this rabid Nazi!

I really doubt that anyone is making excuses for him!!!!

Anyway, I wonder what Alfred Jr. of Edinburgh would have done in this Couburg situation.  Would he have "gone back" to England during WWI or would he have stayed in Germany? 

He was in the Prussian Army and I bet that Marie Alexandrovna would have made him stay in Germany. 

-Duke of NJ

To me, saying that Carl Eduard being a virulent unrepentent Nazi and him supporting all the vilest aspects of Nazism, just because he lived through WW1, when millions of people lived through that and suffered much more than he did, is making an excuse for him, which he doesn't deserve.

I don't know what Affie jnr. would have done, in CE's place. That is a mystery.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 01, 2007, 06:37:16 PM
I agree with duke of new jersey...no one is making excuses for CE, just discussing interesting ideas about his situation that are  judgments about what he was actually feeling since we do not have actual data on that.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 01, 2007, 09:45:47 PM
I've always found it peculiar how the son of Prince Leopold (by all accounts a sensitive and intelligent man) ended up as a notorious Nazi.  I presume that had Leo been around during Charlie's childhood, he wouldn't have ended up the way he did.

One would hope not. I was reading Charlotte Zeepvat's new book on royal governesses and it remarks how the Waldeck-Pyrmont children (to which CE's mother Helen and his aunt Queen Emma of the Netherlands belonged) had a very progressive upbringing where the children, including the daughters were brought up to be pretty liberal-minded and progressive and this is one of the reasons Leo and Helen suited each other so well. This held up well through some of the next generation with Princess Alice and Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands. On the other hand, some of the worst royal Nazis came from that next geneation of Waldeck-Pyrmonts--CE's cousin Josias was one of the worst offenders. These cousins, and the Schleswig-Holstein in-laws, seem to have formed a very unpleasant and reactionary group that stands out from other German royals of the period.

I would think that Leo, if he would've lived even to middle age, would've assumed the role of Duke. He might have made a more liberal ruler since he would've spent his formative years in his progressive circles and Helen would've been right at his side rather than being marginalized. These could've perhaps blunted some of the influence of the Berlin Court that were so harmful to both Affie Jr and Charlie.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 01, 2007, 09:47:44 PM
I agree with duke of new jersey...no one is making excuses for CE, just discussing interesting ideas about his situation that are  judgments about what he was actually feeling since we do not have actual data on that.

There is some data--his words (given in various speeches) and his actions throughout the 1930s and into his Presidency of the German Red Cross. I think Marlene mentioned once that there might be a German bio on him but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rudolf_II on May 02, 2007, 08:21:49 AM
Who would have taken over the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had Charlie for some reason not done so?  As said, Edward VII and the Duke of Connaught renounced their claims and those of their families.  Would it have ended up in the hands of Bulgarian Royals?  Or the Portuguese or Belgians?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: basilforever on May 02, 2007, 08:39:18 AM
Well Duke Ernest I's next younger brother was Ferdinand, and his eldest son was King Consort Ferdinand of Portugal, and he had  male line descendents so I guess it would have gone there. ???

I have to say, CE's actions and decisions and views with regard to WW2 and Nazism cannot be blamed on nothing and no one but himself, and his own bad character.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Iskenderbey on May 02, 2007, 11:05:15 AM
Well Duke Ernest I's next younger brother was Ferdinand, and his eldest son was King Consort Ferdinand of Portugal, and he had  male line descendents so I guess it would have gone there. ???

I have to say, CE's actions and decisions and views with regard to WW2 and Nazism cannot be blamed on nothing and no one but himself, and his own bad character.

Dear Basilforever,

If we are to conduct an in depth historical study of anyone, it is always wise to determine what made this man/woman take certain actions or decisions.

This is not trying to make excuses for someone's action, nor a hagiography, but simply a deeper educational understanding of what was behind one's thinking to undertake certain actions.

In KE's case, as in the case of many other German princes, their attraction and eventual inclusion in the Nazi party had much to do with World War I and the effects not of only themselves personally but on their time in the place they were living.

1 example: German princes saw communism as a huge threat, especially after what they witnessed within Germany after the breakup of the Empire and WWI.  Thus, many princes gravitated towards the Nazi party as a bulwark against Soviet expansion.

And do not forget that it while we can (and rightly so) condemn Nazis/Naziism, we shouldn't throw stones only at (in our discussion here) German princes, but many many people, including non-Germans, who saw the Nazis and their crazed leader in a positive light during the 1930s.  (case in point: President Kennedy's father.)

It wasn't until the war broke out and their full atrocities became public in 1945 that they were finally exposed for all to see!

Regards and best wishes,
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: eejm on May 02, 2007, 11:43:23 AM
Quote
One would hope not. I was reading Charlotte Zeepvat's new book on royal governesses and it remarks how the Waldeck-Pyrmont children (to which CE's mother Helen and his aunt Queen Emma of the Netherlands belonged) had a very progressive upbringing where the children, including the daughters were brought up to be pretty liberal-minded and progressive and this is one of the reasons Leo and Helen suited each other so well.


grandduchessella, what is the name of this book?  I'd like to look for it.  I love Charlotte Zeepvat's work.  Thanks!

In Queen Wilhelmina's autobiography, she talks a little about her mother's (Queen Emma) youth.  She also mentions the progressive education of Emma and her sibilings, that their parents valued education very much for both their daughters and sons, that they were very liberal.  Helena stayed close to many of Leopold's Oxford friends after her death, and presumably Alice and CE were around them as well.  I wonder if CE would have taken an interest in Nazism had he stayed in Britian?  There were British before the war who admired and agreed with the principles of Nazism. 
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 02, 2007, 01:55:33 PM
It's From Cradle to Crown. It's not a photo book like her previous works (though there are some great photos in there) but rather a in-depth look at the lives of royal governesses and nurses throughout the various courts of Europe and their effect.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 02, 2007, 02:01:58 PM
I agree that there were many, including Ambassador Kennedy, who were friendly to the Nazis. They don't have stones thrown at them here becasue this is a discussion of royals, primarily the Duke of Coburg. This isn't too excuse others and President Kennedy had to basically keep his father pushed far into the background when he ran for President. If the tools that exist now, the internet and 24 hr news channels primarly, existed back in 1960 it probably would've been impossible and his father's statements and actions would've been endlessly replayed.

With the royals who were anti-Communist there was also a strong vein of anti-Semitism, both mild and overt. Prince Philip admits to this in the Royals and the Reich book when it's discussing some of his relatives who were members of the party. It was definitely a confusing time in Germany--in some of the volumes of the Illustrated London News I just bought, there are a number of photos and articles dealing with the disturbances throughout the country and some photos of the new agitator, Adolf Hitler, in Bavaria. His book, Mein Kampf, was published in 1923 or 1924 and laid out all his opinions on Jews and the need for their expulsion, etc...It was there for everyone who wanted to support him to read. Those who became strong supports, as did CE, knew all this going in and accepted it, even embraced it. Sometimes people actually do what they say they're going to do. Perhaps it went farther than people realized in the beginning but the basics were there from the very start.

"The world is too dangerous to live in - not because of the people who do evil but because of the people who sit and let it happen.  Albert Einstein"

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on May 02, 2007, 05:21:55 PM
With the royals who were anti-Communist there was also a strong vein of anti-Semitism, both mild and overt. Prince Philip admits to this in the Royals and the Reich book when it's discussing some of his relatives who were members of the party. It was definitely a confusing time in Germany--in some of the volumes of the Illustrated London News I just bought, there are a number of photos and articles dealing with the disturbances throughout the country and some photos of the new agitator, Adolf Hitler, in Bavaria. His book, Mein Kampf, was published in 1923 or 1924 and laid out all his opinions on Jews and the need for their expulsion, etc...It was there for everyone who wanted to support him to read. Those who became strong supports, as did CE, knew all this going in and accepted it, even embraced it. Sometimes people actually do what they say they're going to do. Perhaps it went farther than people realized in the beginning but the basics were there from the very start.


Very well said and I totally agree!
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on May 02, 2007, 05:39:53 PM
The insanity of nazism was very visible long before the war. The nazis, for example, began killing those they thought to be unworthy to live, crippled and/or retarded people. Many of these were children. The nazis had to end this (officially, as the killings continued secretly) after public protests. This was years before the war. Corporal Hitler's talk and rant about the Lebensraum for Germans was also pre-war, as were the Nuremberg laws (1935).

If one did not think, for example the killings of crippled and/or retarded people, and the Nuremberg laws, to be atrocities it may have been because one was openly or secretly supportive of them. Since Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was one of corporal Hitler's royal pets, it would be ludicrous to believe that he did not know and support what was going on.

Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on May 02, 2007, 05:45:03 PM
I recently read in a book that there was a rumour (I think in 1942 or 1943) that Hitler was going to make duke Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha his puppet king in Norway. I have never heard of this before or elsewhere. Does anyone know if there was any truth in it, or if it was just one of these unsubstantial rumours?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 02, 2007, 06:35:32 PM
The insanity of nazism was very visible long before the war. The nazis, for example, began killing those they thought to be unworthy to live, crippled and/or retarded people. Many of these were children. The nazis had to end this (officially, as the killings continued secretly) after public protests. This was years before the war.


It makes for little difference in terms of the crimes, but I was not aware that the euthanasia programs were going in the 1930s. The data i have seen indicates these killings start in late 1939 after war began and the populaiton was focused away from most things other than war.

the idea of destroying "unfit" lives is one of the arguements anti abortion groups use when the choice is made to terminate a fetus that has a malady.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Rebecca on May 02, 2007, 06:54:20 PM

It makes for little difference in terms of the crimes, but I was not aware that the euthanasia programs were going in the 1930s. The data i have seen indicates these killings start in late 1939 after war began and the populaiton was focused away from most things other than war.




You are right, my mistake, I am sorry. I wrote somewhat hasty.  :-[ (And it is very late here, but that is no excuse.) However, there was a massive propaganda campaign for what the nazis called euthanasia throughout the 1930's, as well as 100 000's of people with "defects" being sterilised, which is an atrocity in itself (although the nazis were not the only ones conducting such sterilisations).
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: dmitri on July 07, 2007, 12:48:48 PM
Sybilla was charming. I recently saw a wonderful portrait of her in the Royal Palace in Stockholm. I felt so sorry for her that she never saw her beloved son become King. It was so tragic.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: LenelorMiksi on November 10, 2007, 12:16:49 PM
Carl Eduard, born Charles Edward, Duke of Albany & Prince of Great Britain & Ireland has a thread of his own in the Windsors.  I'm interested in his wife and children:
He married Princess Viktoria-Adelheid of Schleswig-Holstein-Glueksburg (1885-1970) and they had 5 children:

1. Johann Leopold (1906-1943), who married Baroness Feodora von der Horste (1905-1972)
2. Sibylla (1908-1972) married Gustav Adolf, Hereditary Prince of Sweden (1906-1947)
3. Hubertus (1909-1943)
4. Caroline Matilde "Calma" married three times: 1st to Count Friedrich of Castell-Rüdenhausen (1906-1940), 2nd to Captain Max Schnirring (1895-1944) & 3rd to Karl Andrée
  (1912-1984).  Arturo Beéche mentioned that Carl Eduard had a daughter that had "gone unconventional" on the Windsor thread, I'm assuming he means Calma.
5. Friedrich Josias, who was born in 1918, and if he is still alive is the head of the ducal house.  He married 1) Victoria-Luise, Countess of Solms-Baruth 2) Denyse von Murel
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Adagietto on November 10, 2007, 01:43:11 PM
The Duke and Duchess with their children in 1916:

(http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/29065/2921664870100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

Sibylla with her Swedish prince:
(http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/29709/2424796780100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
There has naturally been discussion as to whether the prince came to share the Nazi sympathies of her parents, but there seems to be no evidence that he did.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2007, 03:14:45 PM
His wife, nicknamed 'Dick' (I don't know why) was the niece of Empress Augusta Victoria (Dona)of Germany, consort of Wilhelm II, CE's cousin. Her sisters included Alexandra Victoria (who married, and divorced, August Wilhelm, son of 'Dona' and Wilhelm),  Helena (who married Prince Harold of Denmark, brother of King Christian X of Denmark), Adelheid and Caroline Mathilde (both of whom married Solms-Baruth brothers) and Friedrich who married Marie Melita, daughter of CE's cousin Sandra Coburg. There were thus a number of links between the SH family and that of the Coburgs, Solms-Baruths and Prussians in the latter generations.  Caroline Mathilde's (of SH and Solms-Baruth, not to be confused with CE's daughter Calma) daughter, Viktoria-Luise m. her cousin Fredrich Josias of SCG in 1942 but they divorced in 1946.

CE & VA's son Hubertus was killed in WW2 (1943) while fighting in Romania.

Friedrich Josias & Victoria Louise's daughter Beatrice was one of the few modern Coburg's to marry royalty. She Friedrich of Saxe-Meiningen in 1977. He was the nephew of Dona's daughter-in-law Adelheid.

Calma had probably the most colorful life of CE's children, marrying (and divorcing) multiple times:
1st 1931 (div 1938) Friedrich-Wolfgang Graff zu Castell-Rüdenhausen
2d 1938 Max Schnirring (killed in air crash 7 Jul 1944)
3d 1948 (div 1949) Karl Otto Andrée
She had 3 children by each of her first 2 husbands. After she was widowed, she went to work as a shoemaker--her work being described in the paper as elegant as well solid.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2007, 05:53:55 PM
Some about Calma's husband Max Schnirring:

Schnirring was born in Untertürkheim in 1895 and he got his pilot license at the age of 19 in July 1914.

He trained to pilot at FMF(Johannisthal), at least from 17 Feb 15 with the rank Bootsmannsmaat. Later on at 25 May 15 he received the Landfliegerabzeichen, now with the rank OberBootsmannsmaat. Apparently in late Sep 1915 he joined "new" Land Flieger Abteilung II in Flanders, but it seems that he was sent back to J-thal in Oct 1915. With the creation of Marine aviation ranks he become FlugOberMaat in Nov 1915.

On 9 Mar 16 he rejoined his unit in Flanders which now had been renamed to MFFA II...here he was promoted to Flugmeister on 20 May 16. He received the EKII on 10 Apr 16 and stayed in MFFA II until 8 Jan 17 when he was posted back to J-thal. He only stayed shortly here as he was posted to LFS Tondern on 20 Jan 17. He stayed at Tondern until 14 Jun 17 when he was posted to Land FlugStationen Schlüterhof (eastern front; outside the town Tukkum, and lies west of Riga). Meanwhile he had been promoted further to OberFlugmeister (pretty rare) on 29 May 17.

I dont knew how long he stayed at Schlüterhof, but sometimes during the later part of 1917 he had been transferred back to J-thal as flying instructor
It seems that he stayed rather long at J-thal as teacher, but on 7 Nov 18 he was posted further to Kampf Einsitzer Schule Langfuhr. Also, in WW1, he flew with Baron von Richtofen.

After the war, he went to work for the aviation industry, including as a Lufthansa pilot.  He flew with a radio operator and mechanic board in May 1938 with the float plane Arado Ar 95 V-3, marks D-ODGY, Warnemünde along the Baltic coast after Helsingfors in 3 hours and 50 minutes.
On 21.06.1938  with the mechanic Mr Bock in Arado Ar 79 a speed of 228.89 km / a World Record light aircraft.  On the same day, a new World record for singles in the Light aircraft category with a speed of 229.74 km with a Arado Ar 79

In 1939 Schnirring was in Quintero near Valparaiso, Chile and trained the native pilots on the nine Arado 95 that were bought by Chile. His daughter Calma was born there. Max was given the title "Capitän de Aviación de Chile". After that he worked as a pilot instructor in Brandenburg-Briest at the "Fluglehrerschule der Luftwaffe" and as a Testpilot for Arado in Brandenburg-Neuhof.

During his trials, he crashed flights from four times without much damage. On 06.Juli 1944 during a test flight from the Warnemünder Arado-Werk he crashed in a field near Parow. A day later, he died in hospital Stralsund.

 In 2007 his body was either buried in a war grave, or a memorial service held, at a war cemetery at the chapel of Parow with daughters Calma and Dagmar present.

(information courtesy of a forum on aeroplanes and other sites)

(http://www.parow-info.de/Parow%20Ort/MaxSchnirring.gif)

(http://www.parow-info.de/Parow%20Ort/Schnirring_Bock.gif)

(http://www.parow-info.de/Parow%20Ort/Schnirring.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on November 10, 2007, 06:08:50 PM
(http://www.ilnpictures.co.uk/includes/ImageResize.asp?ImageSize=300&ImageSizeY=300&ImageName=/files/ilng/images/products/81371_128275.jpg)

Princess Caroline Mathilde of Saxe-Coburg, Countess of Castell-Rudenhausen, with her children Bertram (left), Conradin (right) and Victoria in 1935.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: eejm on November 10, 2007, 11:04:19 PM
5. Friedrich Josias, who was born in 1918, and if he is still alive is the head of the ducal house.  He married 1) Victoria-Luise, Countess of Solms-Baruth 2) Denyse von Murel

Friedrich Josias died in 1998.  His son, Andreas (born 1943 from FJ's first marriage) has been head of the family since that time. 
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Prince_Christopher on November 20, 2007, 09:22:28 PM
How did Calma's life play out?  She was divorced from her third husband in 1949, and lived into the 80's.  Did she continue to make shoes?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on November 28, 2007, 11:27:13 AM
No -- that was a brief wartime job ... she had various issues - and problems (lived with another man), estranged from several children ...

How did Calma's life play out?  She was divorced from her third husband in 1949, and lived into the 80's.  Did she continue to make shoes?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: allanraymond on December 02, 2007, 06:48:44 PM
The information shown against Johann Leopold isn't quite correct.

It should read:

1. Johann Leopold (1906-1972), who married Baroness Feodora von der Horste (1905-1991).

Allan Raymond


Carl Eduard, born Charles Edward, Duke of Albany & Prince of Great Britain & Ireland has a thread of his own in the Windsors.  I'm interested in his wife and children:
He married Princess Viktoria-Adelheid of Schleswig-Holstein-Glueksburg (1885-1970) and they had 5 children:

1. Johann Leopold (1906-1943), who married Baroness Feodora von der Horste (1905-1972)
2. Sibylla (1908-1972) married Gustav Adolf, Hereditary Prince of Sweden (1906-1947)
3. Hubertus (1909-1943)
4. Caroline Matilde "Calma" married three times: 1st to Count Friedrich of Castell-Rüdenhausen (1906-1940), 2nd to Captain Max Schnirring (1895-1944) & 3rd to Karl Andrée
  (1912-1984).  Arturo Beéche mentioned that Carl Eduard had a daughter that had "gone unconventional" on the Windsor thread, I'm assuming he means Calma.
5. Friedrich Josias, who was born in 1918, and if he is still alive is the head of the ducal house.  He married 1) Victoria-Luise, Countess of Solms-Baruth 2) Denyse von Murel
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on December 10, 2007, 10:23:11 PM
This from JSR on the British Royal Message board:

"Charles Edward's maternal grand daughter Victoria...was born a Countess zu Castell-Rudenhausen. [Her mother was CE's daughter Calma.]Her father, the Count, was killed whilst flying with the German Air force over Dorset during World war II (Victoria's parents were divorced by this time).Victoria married the Englishman Miles Huntington-Whiteley at St James's Palace. Miles is a grandson of Stanley Baldwin, the British Prime Minister at the time of the 1936 Abdication Crisis. "
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Norbert on January 01, 2008, 11:17:22 AM
Anyone know the details of the case Princess Marianne brought against her father in 1962? Did this finally exclude the Coburgs from German society as I believe he was employed in South America?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eurohistory on January 06, 2008, 01:44:00 AM
In German Gotha terms Marianne prinzessin von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha was a nobody...whatever she fought against her father for had no bearing on Coburg standing among German aristocratic families.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Adagietto on January 06, 2008, 04:11:43 AM
Just one or two pictures. Sibylla at the time of her engagement to Prince Gustaf Adolf of Sweden:
(http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/37101/2888179770100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

A later photograph of her:
(http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/37978/2482181480100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)

With her daughter Birgitta:
(http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/36848/2532279290100532270S600x600Q85.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Norbert on January 06, 2008, 08:26:17 AM
In German Gotha terms Marianne prinzessin von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha was a nobody...whatever she fought against her father for had no bearing on Coburg standing among German aristocratic families.

Arturo Beéche
Thats a very strange thing to say. Please explain.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: dmitri on January 06, 2008, 06:32:21 PM
If any forum members get to Stockholm, there is a fabulous portrait of Princess Sybilla in the main Royal Palace state apartments. It is a real gem. The same room has portraits of her son Carl XVI Gustav and Queen Silvia as well as King Gustav VI Adolf and his two wives Queen Louise and Crown Princess Margaret. The Royal Palace is fabulous with a great section on the Swedish Royal Orders also including collections of foreign orders on display given to Swedish monarchs. The shields of Knights of the Order of the Seraphim are on display there. The other Museums in the Palace are also wonderful including the one that contains the Royal Swedish Regalia. The Changing of the Guards in the main courtyard is also fabulous.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: dmitri on January 06, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
I always think it is very sad that Princess Sybilla did not live long enough to see her son become King and also to witness his marriage and the birth of his children. It would have all made her very happy.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eurohistory on January 12, 2008, 06:05:52 PM
In German Gotha terms Marianne prinzessin von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha was a nobody...whatever she fought against her father for had no bearing on Coburg standing among German aristocratic families.

Arturo Beéche
Thats a very strange thing to say. Please explain.

Strange...?

Why would the problems of a daughter of a morganatic descendant of the last Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha have ANYTHING to do with the ducal family's standing among the German conglomerate of former ruling houses and aristocratic families?

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 13, 2008, 10:47:05 PM
That made sense... :D
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: regensburg on January 22, 2008, 11:34:26 AM
I can only find a picture of Friedrich Josias as a boy. Does anyone have a picture of him as an adult?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 23, 2008, 08:17:40 PM
Buy the book about the family of Coburg, it has lots of great photos of the family. I got my copy in Coburg...quite a best seller there I heard... ;D
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: regensburg on January 30, 2008, 02:31:39 PM
Could you give me the title and author of the book please?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric VdV on January 30, 2008, 05:10:27 PM
Could you give me the title and author of the book please?
"Das Haus Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha 1826-2001" by Harald Sandner

Also:
"Chronik: Der Stadt und der Veste Coburg, der Herren und Herrscher über Coburg und das Coburger Land" by Heinz Pellender
booklet: "Coburg: Stadt und Land: Ein Herzogtum in aller Welt"

Eric VdV
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Norbert on February 01, 2008, 09:24:16 AM
Thanks Eric and Euro for killing off the subject. Sadly I was privately messaged the answer to my question and now know why the whole family morganatic or otherwise was dropped.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eurohistory on February 24, 2008, 04:26:52 PM
I believe I gave you my impressions about it...why would the morganatic branch have any doing in what the family did?

There is no contact between the morganatic descendants of Johan Leopold and the dynastic descendants of Friedrich Josias.

Arturo Beéche
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Paul on December 24, 2008, 11:29:50 AM
In the unlikely event that Carl Edward had wanted to return permanently to the UK after WWI, would this have been at all possible?

Would George V have, after a reasonable period, restored his Albany dukedom?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on December 24, 2008, 12:50:47 PM
It's doubtful in my opinion--George V had almost 18 years between the end of WW1 and his own death to consider it and I don't think it was ever a factor. CE had been to England often in those later years and even visited with his cousins so he wasn't still off in the wilderness at that point.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: royalboy202 on April 06, 2009, 10:15:21 PM
Check out this film about Prince Charles Edward, Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany  "Hitler's Favourite Royal"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qam9_Nk2m84

This is a video of his daughter's wedding to Prince Gustav of Sweden:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp5hbEkF6Fw
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Lucien on May 23, 2009, 12:28:46 PM
Prince Hubertus and Kelly Rondestvedt married today :

http://www.ppe-agency.com/show.php?zoektype=2&search=23-05-2009%20Callenberg

courtesy ppe
 :)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 23, 2009, 02:51:42 PM
It seems somewhat tacky for the bride's father to wear his American military uniform to the wedding.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 25, 2009, 08:42:23 PM
Marlene had info on her site, including photos, of the wedding:

http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/2009/05/coburg-wedding_23.html
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 25, 2009, 08:48:10 PM
It seems somewhat tacky for the bride's father to wear his American military uniform to the wedding.

I thought he was paying honor to his own service as well as the importance of the occasion. Full naval dress is for the most special of occasions only. For commissioned officers, evening dress uniform is the same as civilian white tie and tails. The Dinner or mess dress uniform is equivalent to civilian "black tie" requirements.  It's not like the old royal weddings where he could just wear the uniform of the country. He's an American military officer and would be forbidden to wear the uniform of a different country. I'm sure it was his daughter's wish that he father wear his dress whites.

My husband wears his dress blues (not his more formal Mess Dress) to weddings. I would love for him to wear his full dress uniform when giving away our daughter in marriage.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on May 27, 2009, 10:56:52 AM


Tacky?  Kelly's father is a naval officer, and he wore his dress whites, which is what he is supposed to wear, actually ... and he looked spiffy!

US military wear their dress uniforms for weddings and other things ... and he was not going to wear a suit because he is in the military.  He looked great .. and a wonderful image of Christian escorting his daughter down the aisle.   

It seems somewhat tacky for the bride's father to wear his American military uniform to the wedding.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on May 27, 2009, 10:58:19 AM


And he looked wonderful ...
It seems somewhat tacky for the bride's father to wear his American military uniform to the wedding.

I thought he was paying honor to his own service as well as the importance of the occasion. Full naval dress is for the most special of occasions only. For commissioned officers, evening dress uniform is the same as civilian white tie and tails. The Dinner or mess dress uniform is equivalent to civilian "black tie" requirements.  It's not like the old royal weddings where he could just wear the uniform of the country. He's an American military officer and would be forbidden to wear the uniform of a different country. I'm sure it was his daughter's wish that he father wear his dress whites.

My husband wears his dress blues (not his more formal Mess Dress) to weddings. I would love for him to wear his full dress uniform when giving away our daughter in marriage.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 27, 2009, 01:51:53 PM
I agree he looked good. I have both family members and friends in the military who have participated in formal occasions and did not wear their dress military uniforms.

My only point/question was the appropriateness of donning a foreign mililtary uniform for the occasion. I personally would have done otherwise, as I would prefer a family wedding in the U.S. attended by military members of other nations to avoid wearing their uniforms. Personal preference and a bit of disconnect for me on foreign soil.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on May 27, 2009, 10:36:12 PM
We still have troops in Germany ... and the bride is an American citizen, the wedding was a mixture of German and American traditions - and in German and in English.    If She had been British and her father a Royal Naval officer, you can be sure he would have been in uniform. The US and Germany are allies ... 
I agree he looked good. I have both family members and friends in the military who have participated in formal occasions and did not wear their dress military uniforms.

My only point/question was the appropriateness of donning a foreign mililtary uniform for the occasion. I personally would have done otherwise, as I would prefer a family wedding in the U.S. attended by military members of other nations to avoid wearing their uniforms. Personal preference and a bit of disconnect for me on foreign soil.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 28, 2009, 10:20:04 AM
The guest list was filled with members of past european dynasties. would the Windsors have been invited (they did not attend)? Or, is the near 100 year old family divide still at slow boil for such gatherings as this?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 28, 2009, 10:48:12 AM
Marlene had provided a good write up--actually a couple of them. According to her blog, and the link I had provided, Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor and their toddler son, Albert were present.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on May 28, 2009, 10:52:05 AM
I agree he looked good. I have both family members and friends in the military who have participated in formal occasions and did not wear their dress military uniforms.

My only point/question was the appropriateness of donning a foreign mililtary uniform for the occasion. I personally would have done otherwise, as I would prefer a family wedding in the U.S. attended by military members of other nations to avoid wearing their uniforms. Personal preference and a bit of disconnect for me on foreign soil.

But the family has strong American ties so it perhaps seemed very fitting and natural to them, especially as the bride was American--and brides do rule on these days!  ;)  As Marlene wrote on her blog:

"Prince Andreas was raised in the United States as his mother remarried in 1947 to an American, Richard Whitten. The family settled in Covington, Lousiana. Prince Andreas...attended high school and college in the USA. He returned to Germany to learn about his heritage and take on the mantle of running the family business and maintain the family properties...It is not a surprise that Prince Hubertus has married an American. He has lived and worked in New York City for several years, where he is employed in the financial sector. His father, who has a half-sister, Victoria, continues to maintain the ties to his American family."
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on May 28, 2009, 11:23:10 AM


An invitation would not have been sent to the queen, but perhaps to the Kent branch as several members have visited Coburg, such  as the opening of Rosenau.  It is possible that Prince Michael was invited, and designated his nephew, Lord NIcholas, to attend  and Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor attended the gala as well as the wedding (the latter with their toddler son, Master Albert). Lady Nicholas is pregnant with her second child.

The guest list was filled with members of past european dynasties. would the Windsors have been invited (they did not attend)? Or, is the near 100 year old family divide still at slow boil for such gatherings as this?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 28, 2009, 06:21:15 PM
Marlene, with your personal exposure to many of the royals of europe, please provide some insights, if you are able.

I've known a few 3rd -5th generation offspring of American captains of industry; names of companies that are big brand names. Most of these families' second generations sold out to the stock market, lived the good life, and squandered the much of their ancestors' power and money. The generations alive today don't spend a lot of time bemoaning the mistakes of their ancestors, but they do on occasion 'wish' and ponder how differently life would be had they been around to be making decisions decades ago.

Do you find the same sorts of chats amongst the likes of those who would have been at this wedding, for example?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on May 28, 2009, 08:51:33 PM
Many of the young royals have to work for a living because not every family was able to retain their fortunes, especially the families in the East.  They have to work to maintain the estates, and so on. Andreas was able to rebuild the portfolio by regaining Callenberg, for example, and other properties.  I sincerely doubt he looks back at the past, considering his grandfather.  I have no idea if the heads and their heirs wish to be true royals -  now the responsibility is toward maintaining what they have and doing good.  Hubertus has been working for a bank in NYC for several years now -- in time, he will take over running the family business.  Coburg did a really nice job with this wedding --more than 3000 people lined the streets, and the family could have had a private wedding, but chose not to -- it seems that Hubertus will have an active interest in his family's heritage.

Marlene, with your personal exposure to many of the royals of europe, please provide some insights, if you are able.

I've known a few 3rd -5th generation offspring of American captains of industry; names of companies that are big brand names. Most of these families' second generations sold out to the stock market, lived the good life, and squandered the much of their ancestors' power and money. The generations alive today don't spend a lot of time bemoaning the mistakes of their ancestors, but they do on occasion 'wish' and ponder how differently life would be had they been around to be making decisions decades ago.

Do you find the same sorts of chats amongst the likes of those who would have been at this wedding, for example?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on May 29, 2009, 02:51:46 PM
Thanks Marlene. I simply cannot find via a few quick searches what actually is the 'family business' of the Saxe-Coburgs. Is it primarily real estate and investments? Hubertus' banking experience would be a good provide a good background for those disciplines.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marlene on May 29, 2009, 04:18:31 PM

They own Schloss Greinberg and Schloss Callenberg, forestry, and may have gotten the Gotha propereries as well.  I believe they also own property in Scotland, or did when Friedrich Josias was alive.  I think there was a form of restitution to Andreas regarding Friedenstein.


Thanks Marlene. I simply cannot find via a few quick searches what actually is the 'family business' of the Saxe-Coburgs. Is it primarily real estate and investments? Hubertus' banking experience would be a good provide a good background for those disciplines.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Stefan22 on May 30, 2009, 01:23:54 AM
They have the right to use Friedenstein . For example last year a recpetion on the occasion of Prince Andreas 65. birthday took place there.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on June 01, 2009, 10:03:16 PM
A link posted on the European royal events message board with many wedding photos

http://picture.belga.be/belgapicture/editorial/all/coverage/961686.html
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Stefan22 on June 04, 2009, 01:43:55 AM
Have now added a Report and more pictures to my Blog

http://royaltravel.blogspot.com/2009/05/ducal-wedding-at-coburg.html
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: HerrKaiser on June 04, 2009, 03:30:52 PM
Thanks Stefan. Great site and pics!

did this thread name change?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Svetabel on June 05, 2009, 01:52:08 AM

did this thread name change?

Yes, moderators never  sleep! :) The thread moved from the Hohenzollerns subforum.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on June 05, 2009, 08:53:30 AM
Yes, I did that when I saw the old 'Saxe-Coburgs' thread change to be just reflective of 'Charlie' and his family. He already had an 8 page thread here in the Windsor section so it made sense to just combine them here since, while not technically a Windsor, he was born a British royal and wasn't a Hohenzollern.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on December 05, 2009, 03:35:59 PM
Victoria Adelheid and a not too amused Sibylla

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2jb8xw0.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 05, 2009, 04:02:29 PM
Nice pic of Dick and Sybilla. BTW was Sybilla a nasty person ? I heard she was not a considerate mother.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Carolath Habsburg on July 12, 2010, 07:44:23 AM
Lovely portrait of Viktoria Adelheid


(http://i30.tinypic.com/21oshhw.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on July 12, 2010, 10:02:20 AM
Yes very lovely ! Who was the artist ? Cannot see the signiture below.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: ser on November 04, 2010, 09:24:00 PM
Can anyone tell me where Charles Edward is buried?  I have tried to find this information but have now been successful yet.
Title: Sachsen-Koburg und Gotha ist vor allem ein deutsches Fürstenhaus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Naslednik Norvezhskiy on November 04, 2010, 09:56:23 PM
Can anyone tell me where Charles Edward is buried?  I have tried to find this information but have now been successful yet.
Tsk, tsk. You haven't even checked his German Wikipedia article! Unforgiveable in this age of online translators.....
It says he was buried in the family plot which was set up in 1944 in the Forest of Callenberg Castle. (Which was a beautiful, romantic surprise for me, so I'll forgive your faux pas :-)

Picture of the graves (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Callenberg_Friedhof_1.jpg/800px-Callenberg_Friedhof_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2010, 11:14:20 AM
Yes.
It was at Callenburg. I visited the castle when there was an exhibition of Queen Victoria art effects here. It was opened by Prince Andras of Coburg, the current owner of the estate.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on November 05, 2010, 11:31:49 AM
It's at the Waldfriedhof near Castle Callenburg. One of the best sites for royal graves is mardam's:

CE's grave:

http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-countries/germany/coburg/waldfriedhof/04.JPG

Victoria Adelheid's:

http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-countries/germany/coburg/waldfriedhof/05.JPG

The whole thing (BEIERSDORF NEAR COBURG CASTLE CALLENBERG WALDFRIEDHOF) with the graves of some of their children:

http://www.royaltyguide.nl/countries/germany/coburg/waldfriedhofcallenberg.htm

There are very few royals he doesn't have pictures of the graves of. It's an awesome site!
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on November 05, 2010, 01:10:59 PM
It is actually outside the Schloss. The plot was surrounded by trees. I was there...
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Sara Araújo on January 05, 2011, 03:02:27 PM
Victoria with her children:

(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAAJ3-H-G6S_22M34typOjjKzJtJPvxPI_qWi0V4L13jIzZrNNZkSUNZw-VlnqwuM16dTNDicdsVXkSkLOVXDurbwAm1T1UIiQ2nMnfeKwfExpnOpFNw4u4ORD.jpg)

The family:

(http://images.orkut.com/orkut/photos/OgAAALm1MEmJM7niPfCzN5Imh1-kh4NKZJHLUQrrUQzwXboMf97WGH4LvYA6qwumFMNVhEuyz0bLF6JRSL5r4-GfK8gAm1T1UByV4gaYfJpyd2i0eR4K-PlZMN16.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 06, 2011, 08:55:13 AM
Any information on Duke Carl Eduard's second daughter "Calma" ? She seemed to have a very turbelent life.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on January 07, 2011, 01:47:51 PM
Any information on Duke Carl Eduard's second daughter "Calma" ? She seemed to have a very turbelent life.

From wikipedia:

Princess Caroline married three times; firstly, on 14 December 1931, she married Friedrich Wolfgang Otto, Count of Castell-Rüdenhausen (27 June 1906 – 11 June 1940). She ultimately abandoned him, amid much controversy and scandal. On 2 May 1938 in Berlin, Caroline and Friedrich were divorced. He was killed in action during World War II, flying over England.

Secondly, on 22 June 1938, she married Captain Max Schnirring (20 May 1895 – 7 July 1944). He was also killed in a flying accident. Thirdly, on 23 December 1946, she married Karl Otto Andree (10 February 1912 – 1984). They divorced on 10 October 1949.

Later lifeThe Saxe Coburg family was left virtually penniless for their actions during World War II. Caroline had a difficult time adjusting, becoming estranged from some of her children. She had numerous relationships with different men and became a shoemaker. Caroline died in 1983.

Children:
By Friedrich Wolfgang Otto, Count of Castell-Rüdenhausen
Count Bertram Friedrich of Castell-Rüdenhausen 12 July 1932   
Count Conradin Friedrich of Castell-Rüdenhausen 10 October 1933   
Countess Viktoria Adelheid of Castell-Rüdenhausen 26 February 1935   

By Captain Max Schnirring
Calma Barbara Schnirring 18 November 1938   
Dagmar Sibylla Schnirring 22 November 1940   
Peter Michael Schnirring 4 January 1943- 10 February 1966
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on January 07, 2011, 01:52:59 PM
Her grave:

http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-countries/germany/coburg/waldfriedhof/02.JPG

later in life image:

http://www.royaltyguide.nl/images-families/wettin/saxecoburggotha2/1912%20Caroline%20Mathilde-06.jpg

first wedding

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R14380%2C_Hochzeit_der_Prinzessin_v._Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 08, 2011, 11:52:03 AM
I think her daughter Victoria is living in England. She talks about her grandfather in a documentary.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: violetta on January 16, 2011, 03:49:50 PM
(http://i719.photobucket.com/albums/ww199/vitavioletta/Carl_Eduard_Sachsen_Coburg_und_Gotha.jpg)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 16, 2011, 05:19:06 PM
There is one article written on Sybilla on Royalty Digest (the old one). Quite informative. You can write to buy back issues.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on January 17, 2011, 12:43:26 AM
Royalty Digest also did a 2 part story on Charles Edward himself. 'Poor Charlie' I think was the title, or something similar.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on January 17, 2011, 06:44:15 PM
Not too much on the children though....
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marc on December 23, 2013, 08:44:47 AM
Very regal photo of Viktoria Adelheid:

(http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k126/auersperg21/PrincessViktoriaAdelheid_zpsfe105e36.jpg) (http://s87.photobucket.com/user/auersperg21/media/PrincessViktoriaAdelheid_zpsfe105e36.jpg.html)

Does anybody know which tiara is she wearing?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: grandduchessella on December 23, 2013, 01:07:35 PM
I don't. The turquoise & diamond is the one she's usually pictured wearing and is still in the family. This photo was not too long after their wedding so perhaps it was a wedding gift from either the groom or her family?

It could perhaps be loaned from the previous Duchess, Marie:

http://www.royal-magazin.de/german/sachsen-coburg/alexandrovna-sachsen-coburg.htm

The tiara could be the same but I can't see that Marie would have given it to Victoria Adelheid and it wasn't part of a 'Coburg collection' to go from Duchess to Duchess. Perhaps she loaned it and that's why there are few photos of VA wearing it?
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marc on December 23, 2013, 06:03:17 PM
Thank you for your answer GDElla...To me,the tiara does look similar indeed,but I am not sure that it is the same one...if one takes a closer look,they are different.At least I think ;)
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Eric_Lowe on December 23, 2013, 09:20:20 PM
Yes similar but different.
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marie Valerie on September 24, 2014, 09:38:34 AM
The first Pictures of Prinzessin Katharina, first child of Hubertus and Kelly:

(http://www.infranken.de/storage/scl/ft/nachrichten/lokales/coburg/1538513_t1w454h300q75v15356_Coburg_Die_stolzen_Eltern_Pri.jpg?version=1411496430)

http://www.infranken.de/regional/coburg/Prinzessin-Katharina-in-Coburg-getauft;art214,818969
Title: Re: Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family
Post by: Marie Valerie on October 30, 2015, 01:40:16 PM
The next year will bring a new abook about Carl Eduard:




http://www.amazon.de/Hitlers-adliger-Diplomat-Herzog-Coburg/dp/3100022610/ref=cm_wl_huc_item