Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => Alexandra Feodorovna => Topic started by: TimM on March 27, 2013, 08:18:06 PM

Title: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on March 27, 2013, 08:18:06 PM
I read somewhere once, can't remember where, in which Alexandra said that the Germany of World War One, was no longer the Germany of her birth.  That Kaiser Wilhelm II had changed it.

So, I have to wonder, what would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler and what he did to Germany?  His regime was much worse than the Kaiser's.  Would Alexandra have been horrified and repulsed at what Hitler did?  Would she have wondered just why her people went along with it?  How would she have felt when Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa against Russia, her adopted country (which did a lot more damage to Russia than the Kaiser's army did).

In our alternate reality story, Days Of OTMA's Lives, RHB and I touched upon this.  Given glimpses of the future, Alexandra is horrified.  Here is a line I wrote:

I love Russia, but Germany is the land of my birth, and will always have a place in my heart.  What Hitler and those like him are doing there makes me sick, it makes me ashamed of being German, and I hate that!  I HATE THAT!

I think it captures the feeling well.  One has to wonder if Alexandra had really lived, would she have felt the same.

Interesting note, one of Alexandra's favourite symbols was the swastika.  Before the Nazis adopted it for their party, it used to mean good fortune, or something to that effect.   Needless to say, that has changed.

What  do you all think?
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on March 28, 2013, 02:44:16 AM
When I first saw the title of this topic my thoughts went immediately to Alexandra's use of the swastika as a good luck charm, so it's interesting that you brought it Tim. Of course there was no connection between her affection of the symbol and it's use by the German National Socialist party...but it does provide an interesting coincidence. Two reviled Germans, world leaders, and neither having lived to see the end of their respective devastating wars.

Fortunately the similarities pretty much end there, although one must draw parallels between the treatment of the Jews by the Nazi's & Romanovs. To say that neither Hitler nor Alexandra warmed to their local Jewish population would be a gross understatement. They important difference however was that whereas the former wanted to exterminate the Jews, the attitude of the latter seemed to be more along the lines of wanting to keep the "in their place" and out of the way. I suppose it also could be argued that a Nicholas and Alexandra resented Judaism as many many devout Christians have throughout history. At least when it comes to N&A, and I say this cautiously, their resentment and dislike of the Jews can be understood (albeit not excused) by viewing it through the lens of their strong religiosity...none such claim or rationalization can be made of Hitler and the bulk of Nazi Germany who, by and large, were not nearly as connected to the Christian faith, and seemed to use Christ for symbolic purposes (in their extermination of the Jews) only.

To actually try and answer your question Tim, I think Alexandra would have been mortified by Hitler much in the same way she grew to despise Wilhelm. While I'm certain she would have dissaproved of the Holocaust I doubt it would have been the primary focus of her hatred towards Hitler (just as it clearly was not FDRs, and certainly not Stalin's). I think her hatred for Hitler and Kaiser would have been roughly equal then. On one hand she surely would have been more hostile towards the motives and plans for world domination and German supremacy engineered by Hitler. But as a man I believed she would have seen his rise as the result of the failing of Wilhelm and, perhaps, a product of that very same Germany -unrecognizably corrupted - that you touched on above. On this other hand it's almost hard to imagine her sense of betrayal and resentment of Hitler being worse than that of Willy.

Let me wrap things up by answering you in the form of a question...Would Alexandra have approved, to some degree, of Hitler in the wake of Stalin's brutal tyranny and dismantling of the Russian empire she once ruled?

Just as much of the UK, US and other allies viewed Stalin as a necessary evil to combat the aggression of Hitler, would an elderly and embittered Alexandra (deposed former Empress to a country that never warmed to her) have privately supported Nazi Germany in their military forays against the now Soviet Union?
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on March 28, 2013, 09:15:39 AM
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On one hand she surely would have been more hostile towards the motives and plans for world domination and German supremacy engineered by Hitler. But as a man I believed she would have seen his rise as the result of the failing of Wilhelm and, perhaps, a product of that very same Germany -unrecognizably corrupted - that you touched on above. On this other hand it's almost hard to imagine her sense of betrayal and resentment of Hitler being worse than that of Willy.

Yeah, this was definitely NOT the Germany of her birth.


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Would Alexandra have approved, to some degree, of Hitler in the wake of Stalin's brutal tyranny and dismantling of the Russian empire she once ruled?

Just as much of the UK, US and other allies viewed Stalin as a necessary evil to combat the aggression of Hitler, would an elderly and embittered Alexandra (deposed former Empress to a country that never warmed to her) have privately supported Nazi Germany in their military forays against the now Soviet Union?

I rather think they would have been horrified at the Nazi atrocities committed in Russia.  The Nazis considered the Slavs, the Russian population, little better than the Jews, people to be wiped off the face of the Earth. Nicholas and Alexandra would have been appalled at this wanton slaughter of their people, regardless of how they felt about Stalin (some have said had Hitler made allies of the people in the areas of Russia he controlled, the Nazi invasion of Russia might have succeeded).
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on March 28, 2013, 12:21:11 PM
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I rather think they would have been horrified at the Nazi atrocities committed in Russia.  The Nazis considered the Slavs, the Russian population, little better than the Jews, people to be wiped off the face of the Earth. Nicholas and Alexandra would have been appalled at this wanton slaughter of their people, regardless of how they felt about Stalin (some have said had Hitler made allies of the people in the areas of Russia he controlled, the Nazi invasion of Russia might have succeeded).

You're probably right Tim. For all their faults as leaders and their many personal foibles, Nicholas & Alexandra were sensitive souls who abhorred death and cruelty. Still I guess I can see them having at least mixed feelings on the topic of WW2. Of course you never get to choose the outcome, but I think the best case scenario in the eyes of N&A would have been for Russia to have survived and the Nazi's crushed (as did ultimately happen), but for Hitler to have enjoyed just enough success to where the Russian government might again have been overthrown.

Perhaps N&A would have tried to rationalize it much in the same way as they did WWI when they refused to make separate peace with Germany. As in, millions might die, and that's heartbreaking, but not as bad as being dominated by a foreign power and turning one's back on your loyal allies. Millions more died in WW2, but had it brought about regime change I think this could have been viewed as acceptable compromise.

Not surprisingly Lenin too held rather contradictory views on the War. On one hand he detested the slaughter of millions in the defense of the monarchy, capitalism and the bourgeois. On the other hand he courted it as the necessary means by which his revolution was fueled...terror, fear, power, death. A recipe for success! Lenin and his fellow radicals both loved the Great War and hated it.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on March 28, 2013, 05:11:07 PM
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Of course you never get to choose the outcome, but I think the best case scenario in the eyes of N&A would have been for Russia to have survived and the Nazi's crushed (as did ultimately happen), but for Hitler to have enjoyed just enough success to where the Russian government might again have been overthrown.


And N&A would help Russia pick up the pieces.  It would have been fitting had the Nazi and Communist regimes destroyed each other, in their eyes (and probably in the eyes of the Western Allies, Churchill made no secret of his distrust of Stalin).  This might have led Russia to put N&A back on the throne, albeit as Constitutional Monarchs.

As much as Alix didn't like Willie and what he did, she probably would rather have had him ruling Germany instead of Hitler.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on March 28, 2013, 06:17:50 PM
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Of course you never get to choose the outcome, but I think the best case scenario in the eyes of N&A would have been for Russia to have survived and the Nazi's crushed (as did ultimately happen), but for Hitler to have enjoyed just enough success to where the Russian government might again have been overthrown.


And N&A would help Russia pick up the pieces.  It would have been fitting had the Nazi and Communist regimes destroyed each other, in their eyes (and probably in the eyes of the Western Allies, Churchill made no secret of his distrust of Stalin).  This might have led Russia to put N&A back on the throne, albeit as Constitutional Monarchs.

As much as Alix didn't like Willie and what he did, she probably would rather have had him ruling Germany instead of Hitler.

Assuming for a moment that both we still alive in WW2. Germany invaded Poland in 1939. Nicholas would have been 71 and Alexandra, chronically unhealthy, would have been 67. I think highly unlikely that even if Nicholas were still alive that he'd be called back into service. Russia likely had enough of the Romanovs and certainly enough of Nicholas II.

So Alexei then? Who knows...I think there's a good chance the poor boy wouldn't have survived many more years of his disease. Michael was killed, and Kirill died in 1938, so the crown would have been passed to (gulp!) Boris Vladimirovich.

I don't know about anyone else, but GD Boris as emperor might be enough to have convince even me to join the Soviets! lol

Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on March 28, 2013, 07:32:15 PM
Well, if you toss out the Pauline Laws, and that would be possible, then GD Olga would be crowned.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on March 29, 2013, 09:17:58 AM
Well, if you toss out the Pauline Laws, and that would be possible, then GD Olga would be crowned.

Now that would be nice!

I think she would have certainly had the intelligence but perhaps not the temperament to lead. Tatiana would seem like a better fit to me actually. Of course we have no way of knowing how these young women would have progressed through the years. They would both been well into their 40s, and likely to have had families of their own, by the time such an opportunity would have presented itself.

I forget Tim, in your "Bid Time" how far into the future does the IF make it? I knew you highlighted the 20s and Tatiana becoming a doctor (or nurse was it?), etc, but while your portrayal was more fantasy than "What if", I'm guessing you were compelled to think about how things might actually have played out should they all have lived.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Jen_94 on March 29, 2013, 08:08:30 PM
I'm sure there were talks, at one point, about considering Olga to be the heir? I'm sure I read that somewhere. But I do agree with edubs31 on that one, Tatiana would have definitely have the temperament to lead the Russian Empire and would have fit the role better, i.e. A natural leadership. Whereas Olga was the more sensitive one, with not the temperament to lead a country such as big as Russia.

Here in the UK, The line of succession is the Queen's sons and their children, then Anne comes at around 10th (soon 11th). Charles, 2nd, Andrew 4th and Edward, 7th. I believe they changed the laws though or something, didn't they? So that if William and Kate's first born is a girl, they can still rule.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on March 29, 2013, 11:03:54 PM
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I'm sure there were talks, at one point, about considering Olga to be the heir?

Possibly. Kept quiet certainly, just as the reason for their talks would have been...Alexei's frail health. That's the only reason why it would have been given any consideration at all. Of course Nicholas still had one younger living brother in Michael who would have much preferred by many over the changing of the laws to allow for Olga's ascension to the throne. 

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I'm sure I read that somewhere. But I do agree with edubs31 on that one, Tatiana would have definitely have the temperament to lead the Russian Empire and would have fit the role better, i.e. A natural leadership. Whereas Olga was the more sensitive one, with not the temperament to lead a country such as big as Russia.

Olga had a strong and clever mind, I'm just not sure if it would have been right for such a major leadership role. Of course none of OTMA during their lives had the type of social interactions and experience necessary in order to handle this role. But I get the sense as they grew older they could have fit into it eventually.

Tatiana was also said to have been the most popular and admired by the Russian people during her lifetime. Some of this probably owes to her incredible beauty, but also her nursing activities during the war, her sense of duty (be it known to many or not) and the general way in which she carried herself resonated quite well with the people. Simply put, she had the look and style of a future empress.

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Here in the UK, The line of succession is the Queen's sons and their children, then Anne comes at around 10th (soon 11th). Charles, 2nd, Andrew 4th and Edward, 7th. I believe they changed the laws though or something, didn't they? So that if William and Kate's first born is a girl, they can still rule.

Someone can explain this better than I as it's rather confusing. The 'Administration of Estates Act in 1925' abolished primogeniture, but the line of succession still runs through male children. For instance, you mentioned Anne, eldest daughter of Queen Elizabeth but she and her children are only fourth in the line of succession even though she is older than two of her three brothers.

On the other hand Princess Beatrice and Eugenie are 5th and 6th in the line of succession, ahead of their aunt Anne and their uncle Edward. The only people who are in front of them are Prince Charles, his two sons, and their father Andrew, Duke of York.


Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on March 30, 2013, 02:07:50 AM
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I forget Tim, in your "Bid Time" how far into the future does the IF make it?

If you mean Days, it ends in the late 1920's, although glimpses farther into the future reveal the entire family is alive at the end of World War II.


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I knew you highlighted the 20s and Tatiana becoming a doctor (or nurse was it?), etc, but while your portrayal was more fantasy than "What if", I'm guessing you were compelled to think about how things might actually have played out should they all have lived.

Tatiana became a doctor.  RHB and I started with her deciding to go back into nursing, and then just took it to the next level.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on March 30, 2013, 09:27:18 AM
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I forget Tim, in your "Bid Time" how far into the future does the IF make it?

If you mean Days, it ends in the late 1920's, although glimpses farther into the future reveal the entire family is alive at the end of World War II.


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I knew you highlighted the 20s and Tatiana becoming a doctor (or nurse was it?), etc, but while your portrayal was more fantasy than "What if", I'm guessing you were compelled to think about how things might actually have played out should they all have lived.

Tatiana became a doctor.  RHB and I started with her deciding to go back into nursing, and then just took it to the next level.

"Days", yes, sorry got confused there. I remember reading your "Bid Time" and how they lived long and far into the future after being rescued on 7/17/18.

You should keep writing "Days" Tim. I know it's less entertaining without a writing partner (and since I'm working on my own little project I'm unable to be of service to you for now), but little by little you could probably make your way along and up through the 30s to WW2.

Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on March 30, 2013, 10:55:51 AM
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You should keep writing "Days" Tim. I know it's less entertaining without a writing partner (and since I'm working on my own little project I'm unable to be of service to you for now), but little by little you could probably make your way along and up through the 30s to WW2.


Someday, who knows.

As I said, it was Days that inspired this thread.  We make it clear that Alexandra is horrified at what Hitler intends to do to her native and adopted countries. 
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Jen_94 on March 30, 2013, 07:24:30 PM
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I'm sure there were talks, at one point, about considering Olga to be the heir?

Possibly. Kept quiet certainly, just as the reason for their talks would have been...Alexei's frail health. That's the only reason why it would have been given any consideration at all. Of course Nicholas still had one younger living brother in Michael who would have much preferred by many over the changing of the laws to allow for Olga's ascension to the throne. 

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I'm sure I read that somewhere. But I do agree with edubs31 on that one, Tatiana would have definitely have the temperament to lead the Russian Empire and would have fit the role better, i.e. A natural leadership. Whereas Olga was the more sensitive one, with not the temperament to lead a country such as big as Russia.

Olga had a strong and clever mind, I'm just not sure if it would have been right for such a major leadership role. Of course none of OTMA during their lives had the type of social interactions and experience necessary in order to handle this role. But I get the sense as they grew older they could have fit into it eventually.

Tatiana was also said to have been the most popular and admired by the Russian people during her lifetime. Some of this probably owes to her incredible beauty, but also her nursing activities during the war, her sense of duty (be it known to many or not) and the general way in which she carried herself resonated quite well with the people. Simply put, she had the look and style of a future empress.

Quote
Here in the UK, The line of succession is the Queen's sons and their children, then Anne comes at around 10th (soon 11th). Charles, 2nd, Andrew 4th and Edward, 7th. I believe they changed the laws though or something, didn't they? So that if William and Kate's first born is a girl, they can still rule.

Someone can explain this better than I as it's rather confusing. The 'Administration of Estates Act in 1925' abolished primogeniture, but the line of succession still runs through male children. For instance, you mentioned Anne, eldest daughter of Queen Elizabeth but she and her children are only fourth in the line of succession even though she is older than two of her three brothers.

On the other hand Princess Beatrice and Eugenie are 5th and 6th in the line of succession, ahead of their aunt Anne and their uncle Edward. The only people who are in front of them are Prince Charles, his two sons, and their father Andrew, Duke of York.




Yep, I'm certain it was to do with Alexei's frail health. Do agree Olga had the strong and clever mind, yes. And I definitely would think Tatiana would have been the best one to carry herself as Tsarina out of all four sisters. i.e. as you mentioned, her sense of duty, her popularity among the Russian People and the way she carried herself. She could work well under pressure too, couldn't she? That quality would definitely be needed in someone who is in line to the throne, i.e. 2nd or 3rd to the Throne, as I imagine it is ALOT of pressure being a Monarch.

Thanks for that information! You explained it well I thought.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on March 31, 2013, 01:15:36 PM
Getting this thread back a bit on topic...

I would have to agree that, although Nicky and Alix were not fans of the Jews, I think the Holocaust would be going too far even for them.  Nowhere in the writings of any of the Romanovs, is there mention of wiping the Jews off the face of the Earth.

They would never support the Nazis and their Final Solution, IMHO.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on March 31, 2013, 07:34:12 PM
Getting this thread back a bit on topic...

I would have to agree that, although Nicky and Alix were not fans of the Jews, I think the Holocaust would be going too far even for them.  Nowhere in the writings of any of the Romanovs, is there mention of wiping the Jews off the face of the Earth.

They would never support the Nazis and their Final Solution, IMHO.

I agree Tim. I just wonder if their would be a certain level of indifference towards Hitler's treatment of the Jews. Something along the lines of, "well it's bad what he does to the Jews, but the main reason I despise him is because _______ ". If an American President such as FDR could act largely indifferent to the plight of the Jews (among other minority groups) certainly the Romanovs could.

Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 01, 2013, 10:37:45 AM
Of course, much of the world didn't know what was going on with the Jews.  They were disappearing, but I don't think the full knowledge of the Holocaust became known until after the war.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on April 01, 2013, 10:42:06 AM
Of course, much of the world didn't know what was going on with the Jews.  They were disappearing, but I don't think the full knowledge of the Holocaust became known until after the war.

Yes, and to be fair to FDR who was certainly a very good war President, it wasn't so much that has wasn't appalled by the Holocaust as he didn't consider it the primary objective of his armed forces to liberate them from the concentration camps. American military lives weren't worth sacrificing in his view. Still I can't help but think a certain level of antisemitism (probably typical for the time period and the people he grew up around) played a part on his decision making.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 01, 2013, 10:53:20 AM
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Still I can't help but think a certain level of antisemitism (probably typical for the time period and the people he grew up around) played a part on his decision making.

That was certainly the case with N&A.  Still, when the truth was revealed when the camps were liberated, I think would horrify them.  The Allies certainly were in that they made sure the top Nazis were tried for this crime (those that they could catch, that is).  It might have even made N&A reflect on how Jews were treated in Russia.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on April 01, 2013, 12:54:21 PM
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Still I can't help but think a certain level of antisemitism (probably typical for the time period and the people he grew up around) played a part on his decision making.

That was certainly the case with N&A.  Still, when the truth was revealed when the camps were liberated, I think would horrify them.  The Allies certainly were in that they made sure the top Nazis were tried for this crime (those that they could catch, that is).  It might have even made N&A reflect on how Jews were treated in Russia.

Probably right. Sad to think it takes a Holocaust before people start having sympathies for the Jews. But such was the world we lived in and, to a lesser extent but still problematic, continue to live in today.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 01, 2013, 03:55:22 PM
Mind you, no one had ever seen anything like the Holocaust before, it took the world by surprise.  N&A would have been just as shocked as Roosevelt and Churchill were.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on April 01, 2013, 06:43:14 PM
I have some comments on this subject. According to the book "Royals and the Reich" there were more than a few members of German royalty who supported Hitler at least at first. In part because they thought he might bring back the monarchy.It should also be pointed out there were more than a few people in Europe and elsewhere who thought in the 1930s that both Hitler and Mussolini were great leaders, believe it or not. If Alexandra had got out of Russia alive and was living in exile in England when Hitler came to power I don't think she would have liked him at all. Being a very proper Victorian English genttlewoman by upbring she would have been shocked by the brutality of the Nazi regime even in its early days as was the ex-Kaiser.
 It should also be pointed out the "Our Friend" Rasputin was friendly to Jews and often spoke out against their persecution ect.There is a book on this "Rasputin and the Jews". This is one of the reasons why he was so hated. Also note according to Ron Moe's book on him one of his jewish friends Dmitri Rubinstein was Alexandra's banker. He also was the Fiscal manager of GD Kiril's 12 million ruble estate and help several other GDs pay their debts and other fiscal matters. He was also the fiscal advisor to Anna Vyrobova. Rubinstein also held the rank of actual state councilor in the goverment equal to the rank of Major general. He also arranged for Alexandera to send money to her Hessian relatives after WW I started. Since if she got alive he would have probably still been her banker. So I think Hitler's anti-semitism would have been turn off to her and the holocaust would have shocked her.
  Alexandra still reguarded herself until she was murdered as the Empress of Russia and she was loyal to the Allied cause in WW I. As was Nicholas and OTMAA. If Alexandra and/or any of them were still alive during WW II they would have been pro-Allied. While they all would have hated what Lenin and Stalin did to their country. Alexandra and Nicholas if he was still alive would have read "Mein Kampf" in the orginal German and would have not liked Hitlers plans for "Living space" in the East at the expense of Russia and his reguarding Russian as "sub human at all.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 02, 2013, 12:01:33 PM
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Alexandra still reguarded herself until she was murdered as the Empress of Russia and she was loyal to the Allied cause in WW I. As was Nicholas and OTMAA. If Alexandra and/or any of them were still alive during WW II they would have been pro-Allied. While they all would have hated what Lenin and Stalin did to their country. Alexandra and Nicholas if he was still alive would have read "Mein Kampf" in the orginal German and would have not liked Hitlers plans for "Living space" in the East at the expense of Russia and his reguarding Russian as "sub human at all.

Yeah, they would back our side all the way.  They loved Russia and would hate to see what Hitler did to it, or would have done, had he won World War II.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on April 02, 2013, 12:26:54 PM
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I have some comments on this subject. According to the book "Royals and the Reich" there were more than a few members of German royalty who supported Hitler at least at first. In part because they thought he might bring back the monarchy.

Yes, interesting. I guess they believed Hitler could continue to rule as a military dictator or powerful Bismarck-style chancellor while they returned a new Kaiser to the throne. I'm amazed they could have believed that the same person (Hitler) who set his sights on regional, then world, domination would have ever accepted answering to anyone...and certainly not a monarch!

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If Alexandra had got out of Russia alive and was living in exile in England when Hitler came to power I don't think she would have liked him at all. Being a very proper Victorian English genttlewoman by upbring she would have been shocked by the brutality of the Nazi regime even in its early days as was the ex-Kaiser.

Good point. As I mentioned earlier as well she seemed to abhor violence, not matter what the justification may be.

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Alexandra still reguarded herself until she was murdered as the Empress of Russia and she was loyal to the Allied cause in WW I. As was Nicholas and OTMAA. If Alexandra and/or any of them were still alive during WW II they would have been pro-Allied. While they all would have hated what Lenin and Stalin did to their country. Alexandra and Nicholas if he was still alive would have read "Mein Kampf" in the orginal German and would have not liked Hitlers plans for "Living space" in the East at the expense of Russia and his reguarding Russian as "sub human at all.

This is also very interesting. I didn't really consider the allied cause angle, but yes, I'm sure she would have had continued positive feelings towards the English-French-USA-etc, stemming from their alliance with Russian in World War I.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 02, 2013, 05:08:44 PM
N&A would have been horrified at how many people died due to the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin.  Those two racked up  more deaths than 300 years of Romanov rule combined.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: historyfan on April 02, 2013, 08:38:44 PM
The only way N&A would have escaped Stalin's purges themselves is if they'd been in England or elsewhere.

I would love to be a fly on the wall in a room during a conversation between Churchill and Nicholas and/or Alexandra about the world situation.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Jen_94 on April 03, 2013, 06:01:05 AM
The only way N&A would have escaped Stalin's purges themselves is if they'd been in England or elsewhere.

I would love to be a fly on the wall in a room during a conversation between Churchill and Nicholas and/or Alexandra about the world situation.

That would be interesting indeed.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 03, 2013, 10:08:29 AM
Me too.  Churchill was born of the era of Empires.  I wonder what he would say.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Sanochka on April 14, 2013, 02:43:30 PM
Just to clarify one point made early on, the swastika Alexandra used is a traditional eastern symbol for good luck.  In that swastika, the extremities are bent 90 degrees LEFT, as illustrated by the swastika she scratched into a window pane at the Ipatiev house on Apr 17/30 1918. 

The swastika the Nazis used was perverted not only in its symbolism, but by how the extremities were bent 90 degrees RIGHT.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Jen_94 on April 14, 2013, 05:01:41 PM
That's interesting, Sanochka, thanks for that information.

Tim, he certainly was.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on April 14, 2013, 10:55:40 PM
Yes Sanochka thanks for that. I know about the Nazi Swastika but I guess I never took the time to differentiate it with the eastern good luck symbol Alexandra drew.

Getting back to Romanovs relationship with the Jews for a moment. Unfortunately what I see here is something of a vicious cycle. You start off with antisemitic history of Russia but one that Alexander II improved upon. Unfortunately he was assassinated, and since liberal radicals and Jews were commonly accepted to be one in the same much of the blame naturally fell at their feet. In steps reactionary Tsar Alexander III and he is followed by Nicholas II who tries to walk in his father's footsteps. The progress Jews made during the reign of Alexander II is unwound. During the revolutions of 1905 and 1917 a disproportionate percentage of the revolutionaries were Jews. Of course considering their oppression under the Tsarist regime it's hard to blame them. But even from the early stages of the war many Russian Jews were were pro-German. This further embittered them to the Romanovs...and around and around we go.

I did however read something pleasant the other day about Alexandra have gotten to know a wounded Jewish soldier who had been living in the United States, in part because of Jewish persecution in Russia, but had emigrated back to his homeland once the war broke out and signed up for the army. She greatly admired this young soldier, and while I don't have the specific quote in front of me, she basically mentioned being disgusted with the Russian behavior towards the Jews and that she would personally see to it that this soldier would be free to travel and live wherever he chose in the country should he choose to stay.

Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 15, 2013, 12:21:35 PM
Of course, all versions of the swastika have now been corrupted.  You see a swastika, and what instantly comes into your mind.  Nazis.



Quote
I did however read something pleasant the other day about Alexandra have gotten to know a wounded Jewish soldier who had been living in the United States, in part because of Jewish persecution in Russia, but had emigrated back to his homeland once the war broke out and signed up for the army. She greatly admired this young soldier, and while I don't have the specific quote in front of me, she basically mentioned being disgusted with the Russian behavior towards the Jews and that she would personally see to it that this soldier would be free to travel and live wherever he chose in the country should he choose to stay.

One has to wonder, had the Romanovs stayed on the throne, would Alexandra have pushed for Russia to take in Jews fleeing Nazi oppression (I had this happen in Days, or will happen, I should say).
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on April 16, 2013, 08:33:49 PM
Besides being found inexcavations at troy and Rome. As well as in Inca graves. The Swastika is a buddist religous symbol that is still used today in Asia. It is also a Navaho religous symbol which was quite commonly used by them pre-WW II. In fact someone acctually published a book about the US west in the late 1930s that had on the cover a number of Navaho Swastikas. During WW I i have seen photos of German, French and even one british aircraft with Swastikas painted on them. i think there is at least one British warship that had this on there ships crest. During WW I i believe the US 45th infantry division had a Swastika as its division insignia. They changed it when the division was reactivated during WW II. the Finnish air force had the sawastika as its insignia until 1945. The Latvian or Lithuianian air force also used it as a national insignia until 1940 when they were overrun by the USSR. I hope this is of some help.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Helen on April 17, 2013, 01:39:15 AM
... The Detroit-based K-R-I-T Motor Car Company also used the swastika as its emblem until 1915. I've seen a picture of Tsar Nicholas II and some Americans near a car with a swastika as an emblem in Russia during WWI; it was posted somewhere else on this forum, about two or three years ago.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 17, 2013, 10:51:55 AM
Interesting what the swastika stood for, before the Nazis corrupted it forever.  Alexandra would have been horrified indeed.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: clockworkgirl21 on April 25, 2013, 12:09:25 AM
I am not a fan of N&A. Nicholas may have later regretted his approval of exiling Jews from their homes (maybe being exiled from his own home made him consider how it felt), but I think the facts of the Holocaust would have been abhorrent to him and Alexandra. It takes a real sociopath to not be offended by that, and N&A didn't fit that profile.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on April 25, 2013, 02:15:45 AM
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on July 20, 2013, 06:02:04 PM
I must point out that anti-Semitism was widespread in Eastern Europe pre-WW II. WW I seems to have made worse. In western Europe France had trouble with both with the pre WW I Dreyfus affair and there were a couple of between the world wars scandles involving Jews that didn't help matters. In the USSR Stalin was a anti-Semite and was getting ready for a second holocaust when he died. His successor  Nikita Khrushchev, according to the book "Stalin Court of the red Tsar" was a fanatical Stalinist terrorist. In 1937 given a quota of 50,000 people to shoot he had 55,741 shot! he ruled the Ukarine from 1939-1948 with a iron fist (to put it mildly). He was an extreme anti-Semite as well. He said after he was ousted from power "I'm up to my elbows in blood". Then there was in June 1962 the strike against higher food prices in Novocherassk where Soviet troops and police shot hundreds and jailed many more and there was no mention of it in the Soviet press of the day. We will probably never know the full story of what happened.
 As for his successor Leonoid Brezhenev he was an anti-Semite as well. During his rule there was plenty of anti-Semitic literature to be found in Soviet bookstores from what I understand. Note; nothing got sold in those bookstores unless it passed the censor or else. Jews were also subjected to discrimination as well during this time. Besides being with Khrushchev in the Ukaraine during thie 1945-50 period in 1950-52 he was the rular of Moldavia USSR. There he brought in collective farming. One wonders how many people he had jailed exiled or shot in the process.
I hope this is of some interest.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: feodorovna on July 21, 2013, 08:07:40 AM
Besides being found inexcavations at troy and Rome. As well as in Inca graves. The Swastika is a buddist religous symbol that is still used today in Asia. It is also a Navaho religous symbol which was quite commonly used by them pre-WW II. In fact someone acctually published a book about the US west in the late 1930s that had on the cover a number of Navaho Swastikas. During WW I i have seen photos of German, French and even one british aircraft with Swastikas painted on them. i think there is at least one British warship that had this on there ships crest. During WW I i believe the US 45th infantry division had a Swastika as its division insignia. They changed it when the division was reactivated during WW II. the Finnish air force had the sawastika as its insignia until 1945. The Latvian or Lithuianian air force also used it as a national insignia until 1940 when they were overrun by the USSR. I hope this is of some help.


I can't say how true it is, but I was once told that the original swastilka was a religious symbol of love, peace and harmony. Hitler, when he took the symbol for his own purposes not only reversed the meaning of its symbolism, he also reversed the way it faced.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Lady Macduff on August 09, 2013, 09:38:55 PM
You are certainly right about the swastika. At the time Alexandra used it it had only positive connotations, but those have been all but obliterated by the Nazis. Modern scholars can easily fall into the trap of thinking that since she was so fond of the swastika she must have been anti-Semitic. A similar problem happened with Clara Bow, who once posed for a picture with a swastika on her hat.

Something that's been bothering me for the past week. I know this thread is about Alexandra and Hitler, but what would she have thought of Russia's newly implemented anti-gay legislation?
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: pumpkinpearl on August 10, 2013, 02:30:45 AM
I really agree with most of the opinions in this thread.  Nicholas & Alexandra had a less than favorable view of Judaism, but as devoutly religious people who espoused compassion, I think they would have been just completely horrified and disgusted by the Holocaust.  I'm inclined to believe they would've viewed Hitler as more or less no better than Stalin, a revolutionary usurper.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on August 10, 2013, 06:07:49 AM
Something that's been bothering me for the past week. I know this thread is about Alexandra and Hitler, but what would she have thought of Russia's newly implemented anti-gay legislation?

You need context for this also. I'm guessing given her conservative traditionalist set of values she may have agreed with Putin's legislative gay bashing. Alexandra certainly was familiar with homosexuality and homosexuals as there were several members of her extended family known to be gay. I've always admired the imperial family and broader Russian aristocracy of the era for holding fairly liberal and accepting views on homosexuality. But surely there were limits on what was to be deemed acceptable.

If N&A had felt the fabric of their society was being threatened by gays and gay culture I don't think it's a stretch to believe they too would have taken measures (or acquiesced to certain measures) to deal with the issue. Their views on homosexuals, had being openly gay been more prevalent during their period, probably would have been quite similar to their view on Jews; ambivalent, suspicious, and threatened, but not filled with hatred.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on August 07, 2015, 05:57:19 PM
Two years ago, edubs31 said this:

Quote
You should keep writing "Days" Tim. I know it's less entertaining without a writing partner (and since I'm working on my own little project I'm unable to be of service to you for now), but little by little you could probably make your way along and up through the 30s to WW2.

Of course, Days is back.  Tess aka Wakas appeared in early 2014 and became my new writing partner.  We've been doing it even since.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: davidov on February 17, 2017, 08:15:35 PM
A lot of people have made reference to a modern, post-war perspective of Hitler, but AF's initial impressions of Hitler would have been of the populist leader, I think she'd have been far more inspired by his virulent opposition to socialism, then his anti-Semitism. 

If, in a hypothetical world, AF had gone into exile, and lived into the 40's, she'd have probably been living in Britain, where many of the elite were in favour of Hitler, prior to the war, and naturally conservative, she'd probably have shared these views. It is possible that her perception of Germany may have changed also, she could even have been living in Hesse, depending on her circumstances. AF tended to look at Germany from the perspective of a nation ruled by a man they despised personally and politically. After the Weimar years, she may have looked at her home more favourably, especially since they were able to retain their properties. Links made by the house of Hesse during this period between the House of Savoy, and the Nazi party memberships, may also have increased her favourable views of Hitler. AF was also undemocratic, to say the least, and charmed by symbols and ideology; many things would have appealed to her about Nazi Germany.

However, these would have gone right out the window once Hitler made his early treaty with Stalin, the rest of the war, including his horrific invasion of Russia, would only have served to horrify her. In spite of being an anti Semite, married to a man who ruled over the pograms, the final solution, and their methods, would have disturbed her greatly.  She'd also have been hysterical about their extermination of the disabled, in particular children, as she had a preoccupation with giving care.

I also feel that as soon as Britain entered into a war with Germany, she'd have fallen back into her old anti-germanic boots.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: edubs31 on February 18, 2017, 01:12:18 AM
In your first paragraph you seem to echo some of my sentiments Davisov, so naturally I agree with you. After that I'm not as inclined to take as harsh a view on N&A and their perceived anti-semitism. But you can definitely argue that point.

Quote
She'd also have been hysterical about their extermination of the disabled, in particular children, as she had a preoccupation with giving care.

And an excellent point you make here. Could anyone truly imagine Alexandra - no matter what you believe her views on Jews as a group to be - approving of the separation of families and extermination of children? The Holocaust would have horrified her.

Had she lived to see it I think Alexandra would have been extremely outspoken about her harsh feelings toward Hitler and his regime. And, as you also pointed out, once her former allies from the First World War lined up against Germany there is no doubt in mind that she would have been completely supportive of the Nazi's defeat.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: davidov on February 18, 2017, 12:25:55 PM
You make an interesting point earlier about AF and her sympathy and support of the American Russian-Jew, who returned to fight. Similar accounts of NII exist, and are often referenced as evidence against his anti semitism.

However, many modern thinkers are missing is an important 'element' of anti-semitism prior to WWII, which was that it was a socio-political prejudice of sorts. Individuals and societies as a whole, felt "ill at ease" with large communities of Jews, whether they were rural peasants, or part of the educated bourgeosie, as they felt they were growing in influence, and capital, and threatened the status quo.  A lot of this had to do with Christianity, and the assumption that as Jews, they could not share common interests. So I guess what I mean here is that the key thing was ‘Jewish communities’ and influence. As such, an anti semite, such as AF, could easily make an exception, and recognise a Jew favourably, especially if an individual did not represent any of those supposed threats (aka: they were not political, overtly religious, aka orthodox, and assimilated). To quote the antisemite role model for Hitler. Karl Lueger “I decide who is  Jew”.

A lot of people try to discount the antisemitism of NII and AF, but the evidence is pretty clear, and we must remember that this was very normal (well, not pogroms, they were widely condemned in Western Europe), but prejudice against Jews was very common. I personally assume most figures in Europe held them, but also that they probably had cordial relations, or even friendships, 1:1 with the many Jews that lived throughout Europe. Sadly it was this dynamic that Hitler, using populism, was able to take advantage of.

Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Nictionary on February 04, 2018, 11:03:36 PM
Not meaning to play devil's advocate, but it's worth noting there were a number of White Emigres who viewed Hitler as a liberator.  For example, the White Cossack generals Shkuro and Krasnov both fought alongside the Nazis on the Eastern Front.  Grand Duchess Victoria was close to Ludendorff and showed an interest in the Nazi Party, which appealed to her because of its anti-Bolshevik stance and her hope that the movement might help restore the Russian monarchy.  She and Kirill attended a Nazi rally in Coburg in 1922 and Victoria donated money to the party.  The monarchist Duma leader Nikolai Markov became a follower of the Nazi party and undertook lectures and propaganda duties for them.  In 1942, Kirill's son Vladimir was interned by the Nazis after he refused to issue a manifesto calling on Russian émigrés to support Nazi Germany's war against the Soviet Union.  But in June 26, 1941, he issued this statement: "In this grave hour, when Germany and almost all the nations of Europe have declared a crusade against Communism and Bolshevism, which has enslaved and oppressed the people of Russia for twenty-four years, I turn to all the faithful and loyal sons of our Homeland with this appeal: Do what you can, to the best of your ability, to bring down the Bolshevik regime and to liberate our Homeland from the terrible yoke of Communism."  After Germany's defeat, Vladimir met with Boris Smyslovsky, a former White officer who led the pro-Nazi 1st Russian National Army.

Then there was Fyodor Vinberg, commander of the 2nd Baltic Cavalry Regiment.  Alexandra was honorary colonel of the regiment and Vinberg developed a strong emotional attachment for her.  After the Revolution, he fled to Germany and became convinced that Jews had been Alexandra's murderers.  He published one of the first editions of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in the West.  Vinberg was a leading member of the Aufbau Vereinigung, a Munich-based counterrevolutionary conspiratorial group that brought together White Russian émigrés and early German National Socialists who aimed to overthrow the governments of Germany and the Soviet Union, replacing them with authoritarian régimes of the far right. The Aufbau Vereinigung was a vital influence on the development of Nazi ideology in the years before the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 as well as financing NSDAP with, for example, funds from Henry Ford. It gave Hitler the idea of a vast Jewish conspiracy, involving a close alliance between international finance and Bolshevism and threatening disaster for mankind.  Recent research on Hitler's early years in Vienna appears to have shown that his antisemitism was at that time far less developed than it became under the new influences.  Other prominent members were Ludendorff, Alfred Rosenberg, and Boris Brasol, a prosecutor in the Beilis case and Kirill's official US representative who published the first US edition of the Protocols.  Vinberg called for "Aryan peoples" to unite against the "Jewish plan for world domination".  For Russia, he advocated a return to the strong authority of the Tsar, which he hoped to restore, with German help.  He had lengthy and detailed discussions with Hitler on ideological matters.  Richard Pipes writes that "it was Vinberg and his friends who first called publicly for the physical extermination of the Jews." Vinberg appears to have been responsible for Hitler's conversion to the idea of worldwide Jewish-Bolshevist conspiracy.  Also many of Alfred Rosenberg's own ideas were said to have been lifted straight from the writings of his friend Vinberg. Although his influence on Nazi thought declined following the failure of the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923, when anti-Slav sentiment gained ascendancy in Nazi policy, Michael Kellogg argues the influence revived with the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 and bears some responsibility for the horrors that occurred.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Phoenix on February 10, 2018, 01:27:59 PM
A lot of people try to discount the antisemitism of NII and AF, but the evidence is pretty clear, and we must remember that this was very normal (well, not pogroms, they were widely condemned in Western Europe), but prejudice against Jews was very common. I personally assume most figures in Europe held them, but also that they probably had cordial relations, or even friendships, 1:1 with the many Jews that lived throughout Europe. Sadly it was this dynamic that Hitler, using populism, was able to take advantage of.

I've read that pogroms in Russia were quite common throughout the 19th century and there were many, bloody pogroms against the Jews in Odessa and other towns in the early 20th century when Nicholas was Tsar.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 25, 2018, 07:33:47 PM
yes there were pogroms in Russia during the 1800s-1917 period. It should be pointed out that the Russian Government made efforts to prevent and stop them lest the violence get out of control. There are also instances where local officials , soldiers, police, and non-Jewish citizens took efforts to stop pogroms. Of course sometimes it took a nastygram from St Petersburg to get some officials to take action. I will have more later.


One must point out that the Germany Alexandra grew up in was destroyed by WW I. see the Book "Victory Must be ours" Laurence Moyer' . On youtube see "Total War comes to the Fatherland the German Home Front 1914-1918" put out by the US WW I museum and Memorial.

In the Austro-Hungarian Empire pre 1918 Jews had full rights as citizens

One of the more important figures in WW I era Germany was Walter Rathenau he set up and headed in 1914-15 the Raw Materials Department without which German industry would not have been able to keep the German military in Arms and Ammunition during the war.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: Forum Admin on February 25, 2018, 08:51:09 PM
If you read Nicholas' diaries, and the excellent book "Fontanka 16" about the Imperial Secret Police, you will find that Nicholas opposed the Pogroms and issued edicts to prevent them, which were often ignored. The majority of pogroms in the 1905-1912 period (the period in his reign they occurred) were by local people and local officials. Odessa in 1905 was one of the worst.
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 26, 2018, 03:50:19 PM
The 1905 Odessa pogrom and others are discussed in the book "Pogrom: Anti-Jewish Violence in Modern Russian History. See also the books Easter in Kishinev and nationalizing the Russian Empire.  r pipes also discusses this in his books "the Russian Revolution" and "Russia under the Bolshevik Regime".
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: The Test Card Girl on August 10, 2018, 07:53:18 AM
Many of Alix's Hessian relatives joined the Nazi Party in the thirties, What really s*its me is the modern claim that because Jewish ethnic newspapers saw Hitler as dangerous, that also meant that they predicted the Holocaust. Not so!
Title: Re: Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?
Post by: TimM on August 10, 2018, 11:37:49 PM
Quote
Many of Alix's Hessian relatives joined the Nazi Party in the thirties

The reason they did this is because they thought that Hitler would restore the German monarchy.  When it became clear that wasn't going to happen, many became disillusioned.

As for Alexandra herself, she showed her loyalty to Russia in the First World War (despite what some of her detractors would say).  I'm sure she would have done the same in the Second (especially after Operation Barbarossa kicked in).