Alexander Palace Forum

Discussions about the Imperial Family and European Royalty => The Final Chapter => Topic started by: JamesAPrattIII on November 26, 2013, 09:22:53 PM

Title: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on November 26, 2013, 09:22:53 PM
Here is some errata for the Final Chapter:
from the book "Thou Shalt Kill:
The Urals in 1905 was an area of widespread Boloshevik Terror attacks
Y Sverdrov, A Bolo high up who helped decide the fate of the IF was in 1905 in Ekaterinberg the leader of a "Combat Detachment" which conducted a terror campaign against government supporters and members and supporters of the "Black Hundreds. I think this is one of the reasons why Purishkevich had a handgun a the time of Rasputin's murder.

Two other men who played roles in the IF fate Vassily Yakolev and Peter Ermakov were both "combatants" (revolutionaries/terrorists) during the 1905-07 period

A. Miasnikov who was involved in the killing of GD Michael A. supposedly became mentally unbalanced in prison after being jailed for combatant activities during the 1905-07 period.

This is from Romanov Autumn:

Alexander Kerensky according to his memoirs decided the IF can't go to the Crimea because it was unsafe for them to travel there. This book states he would have allowed the children to go there to be with their grandmother the DE but they did not want to leave their parents. Nelpa's book on the murder of Rasputin states Kerensky had links to Toblosk and also some of the Decembrists were exciled there. Kerensky was also paranoid that he was going to overthrown in a coup by the military and totally ignored the threat posed by lenin according to the book "The Russian Revolution". The book "Young Stalin" has Kerensky using both Cocaine and Morphia at this time. So it looks like he sent them to Siberia to get them away from Petrograd.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on November 27, 2013, 03:13:11 PM
The book Romanov Autumn also has a chapter on Princess Elena Petrovna better known as Princess Helen of Serbia. She was the only member of the Romanovs held prisoner by the Urals Soviet to survive. She mentions that she was striped and searched by Yurovsky. Also she was transported and jailed in perm with Hendrova and Schneider.

Peter Voikov who played a role in fate of the IF was later made the Soviet ambassador to Poland. This is the rest of the story from the book "Bitter Glory". The Poles didn't want him as ambassador but the Soviets insisted. The Poles offered him Police protection but he refused it. After he was assassinated the Soviets thinking this was one of the final steps before Poland and England declared war on them put their army on alert. Quick diplomatic action by the Poles calmed down the situation.  In part because the Polish envoy to Moscow had been a lawyer who pre WW I had specialized in defending revolutionaries and many of the leading Soviet leaders had been his clients. Also note according to his wiki bio Voikov had been a terrorist since the age of 15. Both "Bitter Glory" and his wiki bio give the date of his assassination as 7 June 1927. FOTR gives it as 7 July 1927.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on December 19, 2013, 03:43:40 PM
According to the book "The Gulag Archipeligo" after Voikov was assassinated there were a series of mass arrests in the USSR known as the Voikov Draft.

The man saved the dog Joy was Col Paul Rodzianko, nephew of the Duma leader Michael Rodzianko. How he got to Siberia is quite a story. He was a Guards cavalry officer in the Russian army and when the February 1917 revolution broke out he was a observer in Italy. Soon after this he didn't get paid anymore so he enlisted in the British army as a private. in 1918 General A Knox the former military attaché had him made a honorary Colonel in the British army and off he went with Knox to Siberia as part of the british military mission there. Rodzianko is mentioned in a number of books "Left Behind" (online), "The File on the tsar" and LDR. He helped Sohia "Iza" Buhoeveden get out of Siberia and mentions they had some long talks around the stove. He wrote his memoirs "Tattered banners"
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on December 20, 2013, 05:39:43 PM
The rifle Peter Ermakov grabbed from another guard and bayoneted Anastasia after she woke up and started screaming was a M-1891 Mosin-Nagant 7.62mm rifle. This was the standard Russian army rifle in both World wars and a number of others. 37 million were made making it the most produced rifle in history after the AK-47. This is the rifle you often see in the pictures of this time frame with the long thin bayonet attached. It was designed by Serge Mosin and Leon Nagant.. There is a Wikipedia page on this rifle which saw use all over the world during the 1900s.
"The Mosine-Nagant Rifle" by Terence W. Lapin is a fine book on this weapon
For online reading go to the fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nut for the 7 August 2013 posting "The Mighty Mosin-Nagant" reading the full post you will find a comparison of the AR-15, Ak-47 and M-1891 that is quite funny
the site Gun and game.com has a Mosin-nagant section.

The handgun Dora "Fanny" Kaplan used to shoot and badly wound V.I. Lenin in September 1918 was Browning pistol serial number 150489 it was most likely a model 1900
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on January 29, 2014, 04:51:55 PM
I have pointed out some time ago it is rather hard to stab someone to death the book "Knights of Bushido A Short History of Japanese War Crimes" has a number of accounts of people who survived several bayonet wounds. This book is not for people with weak stomachs. Note: as of this writing a short time ago the Prime Minister of Japan was heavily critized for visiting the Yasukuni Shrine which commemorates the Japanese dead of WW II including those hung as major or class a war criminals. This book tells you what these men did to get themselves hung. There is a copanion volume "Scourge of the Swasticia" on German war crimes.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: IvanVII on January 29, 2014, 10:37:26 PM
James, I don't have access to  my library right now (not home) and the name escapes me, but have you read the book on Chichi Jima and how Maj. Matobo (?) treated American POW's?
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on January 30, 2014, 03:49:58 PM
If you mean the book "Flyboys" yes. I think it was a really awful book. I sometimes thought what "controlled substance" was this guy using when he wrote it. The Knights of Bushido does have a chapter where canabalism is discussed including one of the incidents on Chichi Jima
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on October 06, 2014, 05:14:38 PM
I have some more information and errata:

Machine guns used by the guards of the Ipatiev house Maxim and Colt

The Maxims were most likely PM (Pullenmyot Maxim) M-19102 This was the standard heavy machine gun of the Russian army of WW I it also saw wide use in WW II and a number of other wars by a number of other armies. It fired the 7.62 x 54mm round. It is best identified by it's wheeled mount, gun shield and water jacket around the barrel

The Colt machine gun is the Colt-Browning Model 1895. One of the many weapons designed by John M. Browning. This weapon was used by a number of countries in several different calibers during the WW I period and after. During WW I the Russian government bought 14,850 of them. It's most notable feature is the gas lever underneath the barrel that flipped up and down when the weapon is fired giving it the nickname the patato digger.

If you go to youtube and make a search for these and all the other weapons I have mentioned you will find a video of someone shooting one ect.

This will be a little controversial Filipp Goloshchekin who played a role in the fate of the Romanovs.  After the Russian Civil war he was made the party secretary of Kazakhstan during the early 1930s as a result of the Soviet collectivization of agriculture around 1 million people died of starvation. Since he was jewish and many of those who died were Moslems. It looks like he gets the distinction of killing more Moslems than any other jew in history.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on November 06, 2014, 03:54:35 PM
In looking through FOTR certain things don't add up:
Ivan Sednev and Nagorny: p157 27 may 1918 after Nagorny gets into an argument with Avdayev and Moshkin over searching the baggage at 6:30 pm he and Ivan Sednev are sent to jail. Nicholas and Alexandra don't know why according to their diaries. P159 31 may they are taken out and shot. pages 176-177 1 june 1918 Kharitonov hands over a box containing 8 hand grenades/bombs to the duty commander it is reported and nagorny and Sednev are shot !?

P142 FOTR has Hendrikovas maid Alexandrine Nikoleava and the maid Anna Romanova telling both Buxhoeveden and the Bolsheviks about the hidden jewels. According to Bykovs 1927 account.
In the archive.org The last Days of the Romanovs by G Telberg in Koblinsky's testomony he has Pauline Mejantz has Hendikova's maid. There is no mention of a Alexandrine Nikoleava but he mentions a Victoria Vladmorovna Nikolaeva as Hendrikova's ward at Tolbolsk, but doesn't mention her after that. He also says of Anna Romanov she arrives in Tolbosk later was not allowed inside the govenors house and did not go to Ekaterineburg with either party!?

Confusing isn't it?
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: TimM on November 15, 2014, 06:03:23 PM
Still, it is a great book.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: edubs31 on November 15, 2014, 10:10:45 PM
Still, it is a great book.

Always surprised me that you enjoyed it as much as you do Tim. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a polemic but being such a big IF fan as I know you are FOTR is hardly sympathetic. Not that it isn't an extremely valuable resource providing a wealth of information, but I find a number of its depictions exaggerated and, as James points out, based on false assumptions.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on December 05, 2014, 03:07:48 PM
The White Government in Siberia
 The White government in Siberia during the period 1918-20 is somewhat confusing. First of all Admiral Kolchak was not in command the whole time. This is a brief history mainly taken from the book "Russia under the Bolshevik Regime". In December 1917 a group of SRs and Kadets in Tomsk formed the Siberian Regional Council. 9 February 1918 NS the Council declares Siberia independent. In early July 1918 it moved to Omsk.
 In June after the Czech revolt broke out 92 SR deputies from the Duma met in Samara and set up the Committee of the Constituant Assembly or Komuch. The Czechs not wanting to get involved in Russian politics refused at first to give the komuch any support. With some proding from the Allies the Omsk and Komuch goverments on 15 july and 23-25 August but all they did was squabble among themselves which exasperated the Czechs. Finally a t a 3rd meeting at Ufa they agreed and set up an all Russian provisional government headed by a 5 man directory. This government was dominated by the SRs and was totally ineffective. The members spent most of their time squabbling and intriguing against each other.
  Meanwhile, Admiral Kolchak who was on a mission to the US when the Bolsheviks seized power tried to return to Russia via the Far east and for awhile in early 1918 he was in Manchuria and Siberia. From July to September 1918 he was in Japan. In October he was passing through Omsk on his way to join the Volunteer army in South Russia. When he was talked into being the Directory's War Minister.
  On 24 October the SR central committee in Ufa issued a manifesto which stated how "Democracy" (the anti-Bolshevik movement ) was endangered by "counterrevolutionary forces' (the White army officers)  and needed to arm itself against them. This infuriated the White army officers remembering what the Provisional government did to them in 1917. Result their was a coup against the Directory during the night of 17/18 November 1918. Kolchak who is seems knew nothing about the coup was soon made Supreme leader of the White Government in Siberia. He was their leader until 4 January 1920 when he resigned. On 15 January he was handed over to the local leftists who handed him over to the Bolsheviks who shot him on Lenins orders on 7 February 1920.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on January 23, 2015, 05:46:21 PM
In looking through a book on WW I in a book store recently I saw a picture of a Russian poster that looked familiar. I couldn't remember where I had seen it before. In looking through this site I remembered it is the Russian soldier with a beard and rifle in Sophie B's online book "Left Behind".

Rudolf Lacher the book "File on the Tsar" lists his regiment as the 1st Tyrolean Imperial rifles. The units actual name is the Tyrolean Kaiser Jaeger Regiment 1. Which the word Jaeger means hunter which is what the Germans/Austrians used to call their rifle or light infantry units. This regiment was usually a part of the 8th Infantry division/ XIV corps/ 4th Army of the KUK (Imperial and Royal) army. It fought against the Russians from August 1914 to around August 1915 when the regiment was sent to fight the Italians. Lacher was captured in 1915. Most likely in one of the winter battles early this year.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 04, 2015, 03:40:04 PM
The book Nicholas and Alexandra has Alexei having a fall while riding down the inside stairs in a boat with runners  source Tatania Botkina

In AFs Last Diary 30 march/12 April 1918 she writes "Baby stays in fr coughing so hard has a slight hemorrhage in the abdom" (Note the spellings are hers not typos

"In the Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorova" has it do to "whooping cough" and he  "burst a blood vessel coughing"

It would appear that that Botkina got it wrong and Alexei final hemophilia attack was do to coughing.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on March 04, 2015, 05:32:31 PM
I have some more information on White General Michael K Diterikhs  who did play a role in the investigation of the murder of the Imperial Family. This supplements what is found on his wiki bio:

He was of German ancestry. He saw service in Turkistan and the Russo-Japanese war. During WW I at first he was chief of staff of the Russian 3rd army, then he was Quartermaster General (Operations officer) of the South-West front In March of 1916 he was given command of a Russian Infantry Brigade that fought in Salonika. After the February 1917 revolution he was back in Russia and was the Quartermaster general at Stala to general Dukhonin the last Commander of the Russian Imperial army. Diterikhs managed to escape when Dukhonin was murdered by the Red Guards and for awhile he worked as a day laborer. In 1918 he linked up with the Czech Legion in Siberia and in part since he had met some of their leaders earlier in WW I they made him the Chief of Staff to their Commander. In July 1918 they capture Vladivostok. In November 1918 he left the Czechs and joined the White army.  Inspite of the fact he was one of the better Generals in the White army he was put in charge of overseeing the investigation of the murder investigation of the Imperial Family in Ekaterinburg from January to June 1919.  In July 1918 he was finally given a command at the front of the White Siberian army. In command he advised the White armies to stand on the defense. Sadly the Chief of Staff of the White armies in Siberia General Lebedev ordered an attack at Cheliabinsk that was a failure. On 9 August 1919 Diterkhs replaced him as Chief of Staff. By this time according to another White Leader the effects of war and revolution "had deeply shaken the balance of his mind" and this period the White leadership was in the phase of what one White leader called "Unplanning". In spite of only having only 50-60,000 men at the front Diterikhs decided to launch an offensive against the larger Red armies. This offensive called the Ishim-Tobol or Tobolsk offensive in September did recapture Tobolsk and 17,000 prisoners but it was done at heavy cost to the White army which could not replace its losses. In October the Red armies attacked and the White Armies or what was left of them were routed. Diterikhs wanted to abandon the White capitol at Omsk and retreat to a more suitable defense position. The White leader Admiral Kolchak at first agreed then ordered Omsk to be defended. Diterikhs got into a rage over this and resigned on 4 November 1919. The order to withdraw from Omsk which was impossible to defend too late to carry out a planned withdrawl. Result the White forces and large numbers of refugees fled in a panic which led to the disintegration of what was left of the White forces. After Kolchak was captured and shot by the reds Diterichs became the leader of what was left of the White forces in Japanese occupied Siberia. When they withdrew he went with them. He settled in Shanghai China where he worker at first as a bank teller and then a cobbler until he died in 1937.

He was a religious fanatic, even when he went through the General staff academy he went through bouts of religiosity and mysticism. He was also a reactionary monarchist and extreme anti-Semite.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on July 28, 2015, 05:43:39 PM
I believe some people have wondered how Alexei Trupp an ex-officer ended up as a footman. In reading the article "The Tsarist Officer Corps 1881-1914 Customs, Duties, inefficiency" by John Bushnell in the book "The Russian Imperial Army 1796-1917: Roger Reese and the book "The End of the Russian Imperial Army" by Alan Wildman. One finds the Russian Imperial Army officer corps had a fairly high attrition rate even in peacetime. It was do to officers getting into debt, drunkenness, womanizing dueling and wild behavior. Which ment the officer either had to resign or was thrown out of the army. The officer corps also had a fairly high suicide rate. The Russian Military Air Fleet from 1913 ton1917 had at least 7 officers commit suicide.
 Trupp may have had to leave the army do to one of the above problems, most likely debt of family fiscal problems. Being unemployed he got a job with the Imperial household. Trupp was a Lithuainian catholic and by his name he may have been of Baltic German and since there were a number of Baltic Germans in the Imperial household so it is possible they could have helped him get a job with them. Also note pre WW I the Baltic Germans were considered to be one of the most loyal minorities in the Russian Empire. In the Communist era this sort of behavior continued. The was widespread drunkenness in the Red army's officer corps between the World Wars.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: Превед on July 28, 2015, 06:04:11 PM
Trupp was a Lithuainian catholic and by his name he may have been of Baltic German and since there were a number of Baltic Germans in the Imperial household so it is possible they could have helped him get a job with them. Also note pre WW I the Baltic Germans were considered to be one of the most loyal minorities in the Russian Empire.

Baltic Germans lived first and foremost in what is today Estonia and Latvia and were Protestants. Lithuania had never belonged to the German Crusader Orders nor its towns to the Hanseatic League, the origin of the Baltic German settlements, but had belonged to the Polish Crown and had first and foremost a Polish elite. But I'm sure there were exceptions.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: Превед on July 28, 2015, 06:15:41 PM
Bingo!
Trupp was born in what is today Eastern Latvia, in the then Vitebsk Governorate (village of Kalnagals), which also incorporated parts of Belarus. According to his Latvian Wikipedia article his original Latvian name was Aloizs Lauris Trūps. And it seems like Trūps is not an uncommon Latvian name. He probably Germanized it to appear more noble. Due to historical Polish-Lithuanian influence, Catholics are more common in Eastern Latvia (Latgale) than in the rest of the historically Protestant country.

Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on August 05, 2015, 05:53:15 PM
Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on October 16, 2015, 06:36:57 PM
Escape from the house of special purpose could it have been done. This is how I think might have been able to do it.  Nicholas and Alexandra tell OTMA and the remainder of the entourage to get to work winning over the guards and use them to pass messages to the nuns who pass the messages to the officers at the staff college. A escape plan is hatched. All or most of the guards on the 2 to 8am shift are in on the escape. The officer of the guard is knocked out by a rifle butt and tied up and gagged. The IF and their entourage slip out of the house unobserved. They meet up with officers from the staff college who have horses waiting for them the family mounts up and escapes to White controlled territory by a pre-reconed route. The IF lives.

This is before Yurovsky shows up and upgrades the security.

If this was tried the odds makers would say the IF had two chances Slim and None and Slim just left town.

First of all you have to win over enough guards on the 2 to 8 am shift to make this possible without alerting their leaders and the local URS who are on the lookout for escape attempts. Then there is the chance one of the guards might let slip something about the escape. Then there are the officers at the Staff College. Some were planning a rescue operation. While these men were brave they are also being watched by the URS.  They also could say or do something that could give the plot away. As for the prisoners there are 12 of them Alexei can't walk and Alexandra can barely walk.  If they are told to get ready and the officer of the guard is taken out without making too much noise they still have to get out of the house without disturbing the guards who live and sleep there. Then they have to get to the Staff college officers with the horses without attracting attention at around 3am or so in the morning. I don't think the Staff college officers would have access to any motor vehicals.  once mounted Nicholas who was an excellent rider could hold Alexei and ride. AOTMA could also ride. They are also going to need Dr Botkin who I am not sure about his riding ability. They are also going to have to have some officers to guide and escort them.  As for the rest of the entourage they, with the guards and some officers are going to have to get away on foot.
  Meanwhile back at the house At 6am the new officer of the guard shows up and wonders where the other one is and where are the rest of the guards. He sounds the alarm and the chase is on the IF with luck might have a 2 or 3 hour heads start at the most and the Cheka will be coming after them in cars and trucks and could overtake them unless some blocks the road or the IF takes a path impassable for motor vehicals. Meanwhile back in town the Cheka and the Reds are going to go a witch hunt for anyone who they thought might have had a hand in the escape and shoot them. If caught I done think the Cheka will show any mercy on any of the escapees and the people who helped them.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: Kalafrana on October 17, 2015, 01:09:21 AM
Hello James

I would say slim at best. Getting the family out is only Stage 1. The rescuers would then need to have a plan either to conceal them until the White troops arrived, or to convey them eastwards via the Trans Siberian. Difficult, as the hunt would be up as you describe, Alexei was unable to walk and the family would not agree to splitting up. They were, of course, split into two groups for the journey from Tobolsk, but that was forced upon them, and I doubt that Alexandra in particular would agree to do it again.

But James, your escape plot has the makings of a lovely piece of fiction! The family get as far as the outskirts of the town, after trouble with horses etc. a bit like the flight to Varennes.

Ann
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: Romanov_Fan19 on October 18, 2015, 07:45:50 PM
Could the  White  Army have  Overtaken the House   I Know they were in the city  the the week after the killing     so    were there enough men
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: Kalafrana on October 19, 2015, 06:38:52 AM
The problem is that the family were killed when they were precisely because the Czech Legion were approaching Ekaterinburg.

It would be possible, in theory, to hide the family close by the Ipatiev House until the Czechs arrived, but this would be a very risky strategy.

Ann
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on October 22, 2015, 06:13:54 PM
Ann
 I am glad you liked my escape plot I have some more details. Nicholas and Alexandra knew about the failed escape of Louis XVI and family to Varennes. They will try and not make the same mistake . The IF and the people with them will ride as fast as they possibly can. They have the advantage that during the Russian Civil War in Siberia most of the troops were deployed near the rail lines. So if you go several miles away from the rail lines the only troops would be a few outposts and patrols. If one of the staff officers or local guards picked out a good route they would avoid them. It also would be helpful if a few of the officers and local guards found ways to slow the pursuing reds down by blocking the road. It also might help if someone knew of a path too narrow for cars and trucks or crossed a river too deep for them but fordable for horses. It might also help if someone laid a boobytrap or two along the road behind them.
 One mistake Louis XVI and family made according to some accounts is a failure to put a energetic officer in charge of the escape party. No doubt Nicholas will seek the aid of one of the staff officers on this escape. It also should be pointed out while Alexandra had problems walking she could ride a horse fairly well and was able to put up with the trip with Yakovlov along with Nicholas, Maria and Botkin. As for OTAA Olga appeared tried and sad all the time but I don't think this will slow her down Taitana  seems in good shape and Anastasia being in captivity didn't bother her at all and I believe she was a good horsewomen. Alexei Nicholas as I said before can ride and hold on to him. If necessary Nicholas and others can dismount and take turns carrying him on foot. Most likely they will run into some local Siberians who will help them. They have a tradition of doing this. The villages could give them and their horses food and drink, possibly a fresh horse or two and give the Reds chasing them wrong directions to go. I hope this is of some interest.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: starik on October 22, 2015, 10:12:00 PM
Another big mistake during the flight to Varennes was the coach that was chosen. It was big and expensive and attracted attention. That led to the postmaster looking real close at the king and recognizing him. Travelling incognito is problematic for royals in the details. For the Romanovs, four daughters and a young son in your party is a dead giveaway, just for one example. I should also add that Louis assumed he was still popular among the people and that it was only Paris that hated him. Perhaps among the crowd at Varennes that surrounded the coach there were sympathizers, but to what avail?
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: Kalafrana on October 23, 2015, 01:41:00 PM
James

Thank you.

You make some good points (you always do!).

Obviously the family will insist that Dr Botkin and the servants must escape with them. As a former Colonel, Trupp will be accustomed to riding, and probably Botkin too, but what about Kharitanov and Anna Demidova? There is also Leonid Sednev. Nicholas and Alexandra will certainly want Botkin with them, because of Alexei, but perhaps they can be persuaded to allow the others to go off with a couple of other loyal officers, and lie up in the city. After all, none of them is very recognisable, and only Trupp (military bearing) is likely to stand out in a crowd (the ideal place to hide him will be at the staff college, of course - fortunately one of the escape plotters is the same size and can lend him a uniform which fits).

I wonder whether being on a horse, even a quiet one, is going to set off another bleeding attack for Alexei. Otherwise, the major practical point, once everyone is clear of the house is that the family are going to have to split up. Nicholas and Alexandra will insist that Alexei and Botkin must stay with them, but maybe the girls can be persuaded to split into two pairs and each pair can go off with one or two officers.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on October 30, 2015, 04:04:22 PM
As for Alexei they are just going to wrap him up and pad him as best they can and he will have to ride with his father who was an excellent rider. I know this is risky but the family has no choice.

I didn't include Trupp with the horseback party because I don't think the Officers or Guards would be able to get that many horses. The IF and Botkin  need to go the remaining mounts are needed for officers with combat experience in the Cavalry or Infantry and local guards who know the area. I was going to put Trupp in charge of the other 3 servants. You might call them the TKDS group they will head out on foot with one or more of the local guards and can either hide out in the woods until the Whites arrive or walk out on foot or a mixture of both. Trupp being physically strong will be needed to help the others.

If they go through a village or meet some locals the IF will be recognized. Some of these people may not be big fans of the tsar but most of them will by now despise the Bolsheviks do to their food confiscation policies. Most likely the locals will assist the IF in some way if they encounter them and recognize them. Note in Siberia the locals had a history of helping people on the run until the 1930s.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on November 08, 2015, 10:15:07 PM
I am not sure how far the IF will have to travel to reach the White lines and safety. I believe the Czechs and the Whites were attacking  Ekaterinburg from the South. The house of Special purpose is on the North side of town. I am not sure how far to the West the would have to travel to either reach other White forces or detour around the Reds and meet up with the Czechs and Whites coming up from the South. At least one account I have read the Czechs didn't know the IF was in Ekaterinburg.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on December 02, 2015, 06:32:32 PM
I am going to try and explain again Sophie "Iza" Von Buxhoeveden's actions and why she did what she did when she was with the IF in Siberia. I would say she was a good family friend, a loyal lady in waiting, a woman of good morale caliber, a title noblewoman, and a ultra devoted monarchist. She would have gone to Tobolsk in August with the IF but had to undergo surgery. She travels there during the December 1917/January 1918 period with her old scots maid and a Lett female servant in a country that is in chaos and ran the risk of being robbed, raped and murdered. This and traveling with the OTAA group to Ekaterinberg shows real devotion and makes any of the accusations of disloyalty in the book Fate of the Romanovs very unlikely.
 I would say that in early 1918 Sophie probably thought the Bolsheviks wouldn't last very long and did not realize what sort of government they were going to be. This was the view of many Russians. She also sincerely believed that Russia would someday be a monarchy again. There were more than a few Russians who also thought this. Also after arriving in Siberia she complains in her book about the lack of news she was getting. So was in the dark as were the IF and many other Russians. I would say there were periods in Siberia where she may have been at a loss on what was going on. I would also like to point out the Russian Civil War which was in the process of breaking out in early-mid 1918 many people thought the Bolsheviks were going to lose until late 1919 when the White armies were defeated and in retreat on all fronts. When you look at it the Bolshevik hold on power throughout 1918 was very weak and I don't even think they thought they were going to win.
 Post Russian Civil war many educated Russians both in Russia and in exile thought that communism was just a temporary thing and didn't believe it was permanent until the end of WW II. I wonder when in exile Sophie finally gave up on Russia ever becoming a monarchy again.
I hope this is of some interest
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: starik on December 03, 2015, 11:26:21 AM
Often overlooked is the fact that the Whites were not fighting to restore the monarchy - only to defeat the Bolsheviks. The Romanovs were finished no matter who won. Also, Siberians had a history of helping people on the run - from the Tsar.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on December 03, 2015, 04:28:56 PM
True, but the White side was just badly split. They just could not unite to defeat the Reds. Which was one of there many problems.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: TimM on December 08, 2015, 11:50:23 AM
So it is possible that, had the Whites been able to unite into a cohesive fighting force, they could have defeated the Reds.  How different history would have been had that happened.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: Kalafrana on December 08, 2015, 12:25:40 PM
The Whites also had the problem that they were fighting on three widely separated fronts, with no direct communications between them.

Ann
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: TimM on December 10, 2015, 06:35:15 AM
Yeah, it was a lack of cooperation, a lack of cohesiveness, that ultimately doomed them. 
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 17, 2018, 06:12:12 PM
This is from the book "Remembering a Forgotten War" Serge Petroff a god book on the Russian Civil war in Siberia
25 July 1918 a Czech and White Russian force captured Ekaterinburg. it was commanded by Colonel S.N. Voitsekovsky. Who was one of the White army in Siberia's best field commanders. He was one of the youngest Russian army staff college graduates. He has been described as decisive and having nerves of steel. In 1917 he was the chief of Staff of the 2nd Czech Division. He was later promoted to general and commanded a division, corps and army of the White forces in Siberia. On 25 jan 1920 when General Kappel died he became the commander of what was left of most the White Armies in Siberia and led them to Chita. There he had a falling out with warlord grigory Semenov and resigned. He went to the new state of Czechoslovakia and joined the Czech army. He became a general and commanded the Brno military district and retired in 1939 which is when Germany took over the rest of Czechoslovakia. He was arrested by the NKVD in 1945 and died in the Gulag at Vorkuta in 1954 age 71.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: JamesAPrattIII on February 24, 2018, 06:11:58 PM
archive.org book "The Last Days of the Romanovs" G Telberg and R Winton has a map of the area NW of Ekaterinberg in the part written by Winton. only just noticed this.
Title: Re: Some errata for the final chapter
Post by: TimM on April 06, 2018, 12:03:35 AM
Quote
This is from the book "Remembering a Forgotten War" Serge Petroff a god book on the Russian Civil war in Siberia
25 July 1918 a Czech and White Russian force captured Ekaterinburg. it was commanded by Colonel S.N. Voitsekovsky. Who was one of the White army in Siberia's best field commanders. He was one of the youngest Russian army staff college graduates. He has been described as decisive and having nerves of steel. In 1917 he was the chief of Staff of the 2nd Czech Division. He was later promoted to general and commanded a division, corps and army of the White forces in Siberia. On 25 jan 1920 when General Kappel died he became the commander of what was left of most the White Armies in Siberia and led them to Chita. There he had a falling out with warlord grigory Semenov and resigned. He went to the new state of Czechoslovakia and joined the Czech army. He became a general and commanded the Brno military district and retired in 1939 which is when Germany took over the rest of Czechoslovakia. He was arrested by the NKVD in 1945 and died in the Gulag at Vorkuta in 1954 age 71.

Poor guy should have gotten out of Czechoslovakia while he still could.